This is a thread to list the good things that Ultramarine have done.
- Ultramar
- Holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy
- Writing the Codex Astartes
- Founding half of the current SM chapters
- Being really good at fighting Tyranids
- They repelled two Tyranid invasions
-Saving the Imperium by providing fighting men after Heresy
-Sharing their geneseed with everyone
-Providing good life to citizens of their planets
-Have the ability to work with non-Humans
-Holding down the Tyranid advance.
- Ultramar
- Holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy
- Writing the Codex Astartes
- Founding half of the current SM chapters
- Being really good at fighting Tyranids.
coolyo294 wrote:
- Writing the Codex Astartes
- Founding half of the current SM chapters
He said good things, not why does the fandom hate them.
Those are good things.
And that was a joke
They really are one of the most succesful, but what erks me is that they actually say that all marines want to be ultramarines. I spit on that specific quote
coolyo294 wrote:- Ultramar
- Holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy
- Writing the Codex Astartes
- Founding half of the current SM chapters
- Being really good at fighting Tyranids.
NEGATIVE TRANSLATION:
1. Coming in to pick up the pieces after conveniently missing the majority of the actual fighting
2. Imposing their will on the banged up remanants of the other legions.
3. -sic- Read the above.
4. True, very true.
The first three can be read as good things - by UM-loyalists - or bad things - by everyone who begrudgingly follows the "or else" nature.
As a fluff answer I believe that some of the post-heresy "traitors" are traitors because they at some point refused to embrace the only true way, the
Ultramarine way.
The fact that they stopped a tyrannid invasion dead in its tracks is an undisputed great accomplishment.
While I agree that the Ultramarines missed the majority of the Heresy, it wasn't because they were hiding in some whole somewhere. It was because Horus got them sent off on a wild goose chase in the middle of nowhere because Gulliman was a better general than him. The Ultramarines were already the best, and he didn't want them taking a dump in his proverbial oatmeal.
And the supposedly "perfect in the eyes of the IoM" worlds are, according to all accounts, nice places to live compared with some of the other hellholes the Imperium has to offer.
Not every group of Marines follows the Codex. The Space Wolves diverge from it about as far as possible. So do the Black Templars. Very few of the Chapters, in fact, live up to the expectations of the Codex. The Salamanders, Blood Angels, Crimson Fists, Exorcists, White Scars, and dozens of others all deviate from the Codex in some way. The rogue or renegade Chapters are the ones who either embraced Chaos, rejected the Imperium, or became too warped to continue in their service. (Examples include the Red Corsairs, Soul Drinkers, and Legion of the Damned respectively.) Which Chapters were driven out for not following the Codex?
The Codex wasn't written to impose the will of some tyrannical madman on the Space Marines. It was put in place to give Space Marines a template to follow, rather than the 'run around higgledy piggledy and do whatever you want' attitude that produced such bang up jobs as the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. It's not law, but rather a set of guidelines designed to ensure that the Space Marines are dedicated to the job at hand rather than getting distracted by warrior lodges, Chaos inspired artwork, or any of the other nonsense that gave rise to the treason of the Traitor Legions in the first place. The Codex also gives the Marines (especially those new Chapters which do not have centuries of history and tradition) an example of how to do things properly. Third, by limiting the size and power of a group of Space Marines, it limits the amount of damage they can do if they turn renegade.
The Codex Astartes isn't about protecting Roboute Gulliman's legacy from change or adaptation. It isn't about protecting Space Marines from change. It's about protecting the Imperium from the Space Marines.
The worlds under their empire are the least crapsacky in all the Imperium. Many of them are nicer to live on than our own Earth, let alone the average Imperium planet.
Jimsolo wrote:While I agree that the Ultramarines missed the majority of the Heresy, it wasn't because they were hiding in some whole somewhere. It was because Horus got them sent off on a wild goose chase in the middle of nowhere because Gulliman was a better general than him. The Ultramarines were already the best, and he didn't want them taking a dump in his proverbial oatmeal.
And the supposedly "perfect in the eyes of the IoM" worlds are, according to all accounts, nice places to live compared with some of the other hellholes the Imperium has to offer.
Not every group of Marines follows the Codex. The Space Wolves diverge from it about as far as possible. So do the Black Templars. Very few of the Chapters, in fact, live up to the expectations of the Codex. The Salamanders, Blood Angels, Crimson Fists, Exorcists, White Scars, and dozens of others all deviate from the Codex in some way. The rogue or renegade Chapters are the ones who either embraced Chaos, rejected the Imperium, or became too warped to continue in their service. (Examples include the Red Corsairs, Soul Drinkers, and Legion of the Damned respectively.) Which Chapters were driven out for not following the Codex?
The Codex wasn't written to impose the will of some tyrannical madman on the Space Marines. It was put in place to give Space Marines a template to follow, rather than the 'run around higgledy piggledy and do whatever you want' attitude that produced such bang up jobs as the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. It's not law, but rather a set of guidelines designed to ensure that the Space Marines are dedicated to the job at hand rather than getting distracted by warrior lodges, Chaos inspired artwork, or any of the other nonsense that gave rise to the treason of the Traitor Legions in the first place. The Codex also gives the Marines (especially those new Chapters which do not have centuries of history and tradition) an example of how to do things properly. Third, by limiting the size and power of a group of Space Marines, it limits the amount of damage they can do if they turn renegade.
The Codex Astartes isn't about protecting Roboute Gulliman's legacy from change or adaptation. It isn't about protecting Space Marines from change. It's about protecting the Imperium from the Space Marines.
At least, that's my take on it.
This is also my take on it. Sure, they might get a little frustrated that some Chapters diverge greatly from the codex they made, but they don't hate them for it. They also don't go over to them, and beat them up so they follow it. And, like it is said before, don't discount that they repelled not one, but TWO Tyranid invasions. Not to mention all the other stuff they did.
DAaddict wrote:
The fact that they stopped a tyrannid invasion dead in its tracks is an undisputed great accomplishment.
TBH that was Zaccharius Rath and his flagship Dominus Astra. The Imperial forces were losing, then Calgar got knocked out and things started to look good again...
-Saving the Imperium by providing fighting men after Heresy.
-Sharing their geneseed with everyone.
-Providing good life to citizens of their planets.
-Have the ability to work with non-Humans.
-Holding down the Tyranid advance.
Like someone here said: they represent the Emperor's vision of civilized galaxy. And his vision of a true Space Marine, loyal to him - but also to the people of the Imperium ( never saw or heard of Ultramarines abandoning civilians ).
While not perfect by any means, they are a beacon of hope in the grim dark. In a galaxy where no one cares, you have no choice and the seperation of the classes is so abundantly clear Ultramar is the place you would want to be born. Cadia, Catachan, Fenris, Armageddon, Necromunda, Baal the list goes on. I know if it was me and I had the choice, I'd want to live in Ultramar somewhere. Anywhere. Against all odds, that's a fair achievement.
I've just realised - Ultramarines are America. They join the fight late, impose their world view once they "win" the war, lose horribly to a technogically inferior enemy then twist it to seem like a win, and think everybody wants to be them.
Brother Coa wrote:-Saving the Imperium by providing fighting men after Heresy.
-Sharing their geneseed with everyone.
-Providing good life to citizens of their planets.
-Have the ability to work with non-Humans.
-Holding down the Tyranid advance.
Like someone here said: they represent the Emperor's vision of civilized galaxy. And his vision of a true Space Marine, loyal to him - but also to the people of the Imperium ( never saw or heard of Ultramarines abandoning civilians ).
This all fits the America theory too.
Sharing their geneseed - well there are more than a few bastard offspring in the UK due to overpaid, oversexed and over here Yanks.
Providing a good life to their cits - at the expense of other countries, sure!
Ability to work with non-humans - well, modify that to non-Americans and look at Nike sweatshops in Indonesia, electronics manufacturers in China and so on, sure!
Holding down the Tyranid advance. Well, sure if you go with the theory that Viet Nam was a draw, and it held back the advance of Communism!
Fifty wrote:So now it is not okay to be mean to Ultramarines? Dakka has changed.
That's called: "civilized behavior"
When you can control your emotions and such...
We lose it pretty much here ( like me in a Tau fan fiction threads ) but we are pretty civil from time to time...
1. Coming in to pick up the pieces after conveniently missing the majority of the actual fighting
2. Imposing their will on the banged up remanants of the other legions.
3. -sic- Read the above.
4. True, very true.
The first three can be read as good things - by UM-loyalists - or bad things - by everyone who begrudgingly follows the "or else" nature.
As a fluff answer I believe that some of the post-heresy "traitors" are traitors because they at some point refused to embrace the only true way, the
Ultramarine way.
The fact that they stopped a tyrannid invasion dead in its tracks is an undisputed great accomplishment.
1. Coming in to pick up the pieces after conveniently missing the majority of the actual fighting
2. Imposing their will on the banged up remanants of the other legions.
3. -sic- Read the above.
4. True, very true.
The first three can be read as good things - by UM-loyalists - or bad things - by everyone who begrudgingly follows the "or else" nature.
As a fluff answer I believe that some of the post-heresy "traitors" are traitors because they at some point refused to embrace the only true way, the
Ultramarine way.
The fact that they stopped a tyrannid invasion dead in its tracks is an undisputed great accomplishment.
Making an entire sector Tithe grade: Adeptus nons.
That alone makes them beloved by citizens in their protectorate: "You mean we only have to pay like 1/10th the taxes normally required, and we only have to pay them to the UM? Awesome!"
Brother Coa wrote:-Saving the Imperium by providing fighting men after Heresy.
-Sharing their geneseed with everyone.
-Providing good life to citizens of their planets.
-Have the ability to work with non-Humans.
-Holding down the Tyranid advance.
Like someone here said: they represent the Emperor's vision of civilized galaxy. And his vision of a true Space Marine, loyal to him - but also to the people of the Imperium ( never saw or heard of Ultramarines abandoning civilians ).
This all fits the America theory too.
Sharing their geneseed - well there are more than a few bastard offspring in the UK due to overpaid, oversexed and over here Yanks.
Providing a good life to their cits - at the expense of other countries, sure!
Ability to work with non-humans - well, modify that to non-Americans and look at Nike sweatshops in Indonesia, electronics manufacturers in China and so on, sure!
Holding down the Tyranid advance. Well, sure if you go with the theory that Viet Nam was a draw, and it held back the advance of Communism!
Jimsolo wrote:While I agree that the Ultramarines missed the majority of the Heresy, it wasn't because they were hiding in some whole somewhere. It was because Horus got them sent off on a wild goose chase in the middle of nowhere because Gulliman was a better general than him. The Ultramarines were already the best, and he didn't want them taking a dump in his proverbial oatmeal.
And the supposedly "perfect in the eyes of the IoM" worlds are, according to all accounts, nice places to live compared with some of the other hellholes the Imperium has to offer.
Not every group of Marines follows the Codex. The Space Wolves diverge from it about as far as possible. So do the Black Templars. Very few of the Chapters, in fact, live up to the expectations of the Codex. The Salamanders, Blood Angels, Crimson Fists, Exorcists, White Scars, and dozens of others all deviate from the Codex in some way. The rogue or renegade Chapters are the ones who either embraced Chaos, rejected the Imperium, or became too warped to continue in their service. (Examples include the Red Corsairs, Soul Drinkers, and Legion of the Damned respectively.) Which Chapters were driven out for not following the Codex?
The Codex wasn't written to impose the will of some tyrannical madman on the Space Marines. It was put in place to give Space Marines a template to follow, rather than the 'run around higgledy piggledy and do whatever you want' attitude that produced such bang up jobs as the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. It's not law, but rather a set of guidelines designed to ensure that the Space Marines are dedicated to the job at hand rather than getting distracted by warrior lodges, Chaos inspired artwork, or any of the other nonsense that gave rise to the treason of the Traitor Legions in the first place. The Codex also gives the Marines (especially those new Chapters which do not have centuries of history and tradition) an example of how to do things properly. Third, by limiting the size and power of a group of Space Marines, it limits the amount of damage they can do if they turn renegade.
The Codex Astartes isn't about protecting Roboute Gulliman's legacy from change or adaptation. It isn't about protecting Space Marines from change. It's about protecting the Imperium from the Space Marines.
At least, that's my take on it.
Surely Horus removing the Imperium's best general shows that he was a better general. Guilliman would have realised it was a goose chase if he had truly been a better general than Horus. Also, alienating an entire legion just because they don't follow your battle plan isn't the best thing a general could do. On founding half the SM chapters, that was because they had lost hardly any men in the Heresy, then the restrictions on Chapter numbers prevented any other legions reaching the same numbers as they previously had, so once the codex was in place, they had their huge number advantage cemented in place.
Another negative interpretation by the way, so feel free to call me a troll or something.
Jimsolo wrote:While I agree that the Ultramarines missed the majority of the Heresy, it wasn't because they were hiding in some whole somewhere. It was because Horus got them sent off on a wild goose chase in the middle of nowhere because Gulliman was a better general than him. The Ultramarines were already the best, and he didn't want them taking a dump in his proverbial oatmeal.
And the supposedly "perfect in the eyes of the IoM" worlds are, according to all accounts, nice places to live compared with some of the other hellholes the Imperium has to offer.
Not every group of Marines follows the Codex. The Space Wolves diverge from it about as far as possible. So do the Black Templars. Very few of the Chapters, in fact, live up to the expectations of the Codex. The Salamanders, Blood Angels, Crimson Fists, Exorcists, White Scars, and dozens of others all deviate from the Codex in some way. The rogue or renegade Chapters are the ones who either embraced Chaos, rejected the Imperium, or became too warped to continue in their service. (Examples include the Red Corsairs, Soul Drinkers, and Legion of the Damned respectively.) Which Chapters were driven out for not following the Codex?
The Codex wasn't written to impose the will of some tyrannical madman on the Space Marines. It was put in place to give Space Marines a template to follow, rather than the 'run around higgledy piggledy and do whatever you want' attitude that produced such bang up jobs as the World Eaters, the Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. It's not law, but rather a set of guidelines designed to ensure that the Space Marines are dedicated to the job at hand rather than getting distracted by warrior lodges, Chaos inspired artwork, or any of the other nonsense that gave rise to the treason of the Traitor Legions in the first place. The Codex also gives the Marines (especially those new Chapters which do not have centuries of history and tradition) an example of how to do things properly. Third, by limiting the size and power of a group of Space Marines, it limits the amount of damage they can do if they turn renegade.
The Codex Astartes isn't about protecting Roboute Gulliman's legacy from change or adaptation. It isn't about protecting Space Marines from change. It's about protecting the Imperium from the Space Marines.
At least, that's my take on it.
Surely Horus removing the Imperium's best general shows that he was a better general. Guilliman would have realised it was a goose chase if he had truly been a better general than Horus. Also, alienating an entire legion just because they don't follow your battle plan isn't the best thing a general could do. On founding half the SM chapters, that was because they had lost hardly any men in the Heresy, then the restrictions on Chapter numbers prevented any other legions reaching the same numbers as they previously had, so once the codex was in place, they had their huge number advantage cemented in place.
Another negative interpretation by the way, so feel free to call me a troll or something.
I'm just happy that you backed up what you said. In my "What is wrong with the Ultramarines" thread, there was much "cause they are blue, and they suck, and they didn't do anything during the Horus Heresy", and other things that seemed very bandwagon-ish to me. So your post makes sense, and it is backed up
The biggest thing that I don't like about them is that when Rogal Dorn initially went 'Feth you I am not taking your bible or following your orders' Guilliman tried to get him declared as a heretic. The reason I don't think guilliman did it to the space wolves is the fact they are an always have been a small Legion(though chapterwise I think they are a little larger than your average 1000 man chapter)
At least Guilliman can refuse to take orders. Russ will always follow orders no matter what.
TBH, the Imperial Fists are my fav. And I am just wondering, has anyone come up with a humorous term for them (like the UM are Smurfs, the SW are Puppies).
The Codex Astartes wasn't just written by the Ultramarines primarch, it was written by many many people throughout the history of the Imperium. It may have been organized by him but it certainly wasn't written by just him.
Luna Dragon wrote:This is a thread to list the good things that Ultramarine have done.
- Ultramar
- Holding the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy
- Writing the Codex Astartes
- Founding half of the current SM chapters
- Being really good at fighting Tyranids
- They repelled two Tyranid invasions
-Saving the Imperium by providing fighting men after Heresy
-Sharing their geneseed with everyone
-Providing good life to citizens of their planets
-Have the ability to work with non-Humans
-Holding down the Tyranid advance.
You do realise that you repeated yourself several times, right? "Being really good at fighting Tyranids" is not even a "thing" they have "done," it is something about them, and something that is obvious from the repelling two Tyranid invasions thing.
And one must remember they did not repel Kraken alone, the Eldar played a big part in that as well.
But I digress.
Hey I know one thing they did that was good!
They managed to evacuate Damnos with little casualties when the Tomb World awoke, steamrolling through the Necron invaders, and even managed to crush the Necron Lord under mighty Dreadnought fist!
Huh? What's that?
You say that originally the Necrons decisively beat the Ultramarines, inflicting heavy casualties, and originally it was both the Ultramarines AND the Black Templars that were there, with both being crushed by the Tomb World forces? Silly lad, Mat Ward has made it clear that this is not the case.
forruner_mercy wrote:At least Guilliman can refuse to take orders. Russ will always follow orders no matter what.
TBH, the Imperial Fists are my fav. And I am just wondering, has anyone come up with a humorous term for them (like the UM are Smurfs, the SW are Puppies).
They can be called Fisters, Fisties or Imps if you like. Just that Imps don't seem to fit well...
forruner_mercy wrote:At least Guilliman can refuse to take orders. Russ will always follow orders no matter what.
TBH, the Imperial Fists are my fav. And I am just wondering, has anyone come up with a humorous term for them (like the UM are Smurfs, the SW are Puppies).
They can be called Fisters, Fisties or Imps if you like. Just that Imps don't seem to fit well...
Probably because an "imp" is a demonic creature. Or, if you live in England, a daemonic creature.
The best thing I can say about the Ultramarines is that it must have taken epically sized balls for their traitor primarch to have tried to brand Dorn a heretic.
forruner_mercy wrote:At least Guilliman can refuse to take orders. Russ will always follow orders no matter what.
TBH, the Imperial Fists are my fav. And I am just wondering, has anyone come up with a humorous term for them (like the UM are Smurfs, the SW are Puppies).
They can be called Fisters, Fisties or Imps if you like. Just that Imps don't seem to fit well...
Probably because an "imp" is a demonic creature. Or, if you live in England, a daemonic creature.
That's not actually one of those UK/US differences, like Encyclopedia/Encyclopaedia. They're variant spellings, both of which are 'correct' for want of a better term.
People are idiots...
If that is the case then I hate Americans because they are always represented as "good guys".
But to be fair, people often misjudged before actually see what is this all about.
I didn't said that M.W. was terrible before I actually read the fluff and saw it myself.
Hating UM is often viewed as "cool" by experienced hobbyists. It's difficult to say why exactly.
My guess is that smurf hatin' brands the person as different from the rest of the crowd, especially the newbies. It implicitly means you're a rebel. A cool guy and smart that stands for his opinion (even if this opinion is shared by thousands of other idiots and that it makes no sense whatsoever).
forruner_mercy wrote:At least Guilliman can refuse to take orders. Russ will always follow orders no matter what.
TBH, the Imperial Fists are my fav. And I am just wondering, has anyone come up with a humorous term for them (like the UM are Smurfs, the SW are Puppies).
They can be called Fisters, Fisties or Imps if you like. Just that Imps don't seem to fit well...
Probably because an "imp" is a demonic creature. Or, if you live in England, a daemonic creature.
That's not actually one of those UK/US differences, like Encyclopedia/Encyclopaedia. They're variant spellings, both of which are 'correct' for want of a better term.
I just assumed. I never see the word spelled "daemonic" except in something from England. But as they say, "assuming makes an ass out of you and me".
Fifty wrote:I've just realised - Ultramarines are America. They join the fight late, impose their world view once they "win" the war, lose horribly to a technogically inferior enemy then twist it to seem like a win, and think everybody wants to be them.
Much of the same thing can be said about many other cultures/countries throughout history. Let's not forget England and it's own sense of entitlement to dominate other cultures with with their armies and arrogance. Then being defeated by rebels.
Point is, pick a time in history and you might find your statement can apply elsewhere.
The Ultramarines prevented their brethren from wasting their time with photoshootings for cover art.
Thus their thankful battlebrothers could spent their precious time on annihilating the traitor, the xeno and the mutant.
iproxtaco wrote:It very much matters, especially when we don't actually know what happened to them at all.
I think we can assume its worse then rebelling against the Imperium like the Traitor Legions did.
Not necessarily, it just could be they couldn't escape with 18 legions fighting them.
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Temujin wrote:The best thing I can say about the Ultramarines is that it must have taken epically sized balls for their traitor primarch to have tried to brand Dorn a heretic.
Not really, remember alot of the legion was killed fighting Horus.
iproxtaco wrote:It very much matters, especially when we don't actually know what happened to them at all.
I think we can assume its worse then rebelling against the Imperium like the Traitor Legions did.
Not necessarily, it just could be they couldn't escape with 18 legions fighting them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Temujin wrote:The best thing I can say about the Ultramarines is that it must have taken epically sized balls for their traitor primarch to have tried to brand Dorn a heretic.
Not really, remember alot of the legion was killed fighting Horus.
To the first: but they were completely wiped from records. The Traitor Legions were not.
To the second: Traitor Primarch?
First:Hard to hide something as massive as the horus heresy and the primarchs involved, that and those files were sealed by the emperor, unfourtunately he has been on the toilet for 10000 years so he has been unable to seal it
second:No, Imperial Fists
Wardragoon wrote:First:Hard to hide something as massive as the horus heresy and the primarchs involved, that and those files were sealed by the emperor, unfourtunately he has been on the toilet for 10000 years so he has been unable to seal it
second:No, Imperial Fists
I mean IDK what Traitor Primarch its is talking about, because with the way it is currently worded it sounds like you it is saying the Ultramarines have a Traitor Primarch.
Temujin wrote:The best thing I can say about the Ultramarines is that it must have taken epically sized balls for their traitor primarch to have tried to brand Dorn a heretic.
I understand that, but just look at how the colored part is worded.
Maybe its just me, but the way it is worded, IMHO, a bit strange.
"Ultramarines" seems to connect to "for their traitor primarch", which says to me that it is saying that the UM have a traitor primarch.
But like I said, it might just be me.
Temujin wrote:The best thing I can say about the Ultramarines is that it must have taken epically sized balls for their traitor primarch to have tried to brand Dorn a heretic.
I understand that, but just look at how the colored part is worded.
Maybe its just me, but the way it is worded, IMHO, a bit strange.
"Ultramarines" seems to connect to "for their traitor primarch", which says to me that it is saying that the UM have a traitor primarch.
But like I said, it might just be me.
I missed the Guilliman being a traitor part , I don't think he's a traitor, just an arrogant ass.
Temujin wrote:The best thing I can say about the Ultramarines is that it must have taken epically sized balls for their traitor primarch to have tried to brand Dorn a heretic.
I understand that, but just look at how the colored part is worded.
Maybe its just me, but the way it is worded, IMHO, a bit strange.
"Ultramarines" seems to connect to "for their traitor primarch", which says to me that it is saying that the UM have a traitor primarch.
But like I said, it might just be me.
I missed the Guilliman being a traitor part , I don't think he's a traitor, just an arrogant ass.
I think the point was he was calling Guuiliman a traitor because of his willingness to cause another war over a pretty trivial matter.
Read Age of Darkness if you don't understand the traitor primarch comment.
Spoiler:
Yes, Guilliman is a vile traitor. He planned his own heretical secessionist Empire before Horus even arrived at Terra, and planned to defend it against (fellow) traitor and loyalist alike.
Wardragoon wrote:The biggest thing that I don't like about them is that when Rogal Dorn initially went 'Feth you I am not taking your bible or following your orders' Guilliman tried to get him declared as a heretic. The reason I don't think guilliman did it to the space wolves is the fact they are an always have been a small Legion(though chapterwise I think they are a little larger than your average 1000 man chapter)
He didn't do that to Russ because Russ would have killed him. Simple as that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Temujin wrote:Read Age of Darkness if you don't understand the traitor primarch comment.
Spoiler:
Yes, Guilliman is a vile traitor. He planned his own heretical secessionist Empire before Horus even arrived at Terra, and planned to defend it against (fellow) traitor and loyalist alike.
Maybe I missed the cues or you read that story with with a bias view. But that is not what I got out of that at all....
Temujin wrote:Read Age of Darkness if you don't understand the traitor primarch comment.
Spoiler:
Yes, Guilliman is a vile traitor. He planned his own heretical secessionist Empire before Horus even arrived at Terra, and planned to defend it against (fellow) traitor and loyalist alike.
Except that's not what happened at all in that story. Lion jumps to the worst conclusions all the time. That's his job.
We also know exactly what Guilliman was up to, since this is the past to us. He had an opportunity to do what you describe and he specifically abdicated it.
And now we're talking about the Traitor Legions and the Heresy xD
Honestly, I don't like the entire space marines. Well, I do love the Space Wolves, but the rest are just a bunch of genetically-enhanced sheep to me. Blindly following the words of a man who's been in life-support for a couple thousands of years? I mean, sure, he had awesome psychic powers, but so did Darth Sidious! The thing is, I don't see why UMs should be hated particulary. You know, at least they're blue. Blue is awesome.
Belexar wrote:And now we're talking about the Traitor Legions and the Heresy xD
Honestly, I don't like the entire space marines. Well, I do love the Space Wolves, but the rest are just a bunch of genetically-enhanced sheep to me. Blindly following the words of a man who's been in life-support for a couple thousands of years? I mean, sure, he had awesome psychic powers, but so did Darth Sidious! The thing is, I don't see why UMs should be hated particulary. You know, at least they're blue. Blue is awesome.
Anyways, I'm getting a bit off topic myself xD
The entire Imperium blindly reveres the Emperor, Space Wolves included.
Ironically, a lot of what they are doing is the same crap he is against.
Particularly the whole "worshipping" part, the Emperor enforced atheism.
Belexar wrote:And now we're talking about the Traitor Legions and the Heresy xD
Honestly, I don't like the entire space marines. Well, I do love the Space Wolves, but the rest are just a bunch of genetically-enhanced sheep to me. Blindly following the words of a man who's been in life-support for a couple thousands of years? I mean, sure, he had awesome psychic powers, but so did Darth Sidious! The thing is, I don't see why UMs should be hated particulary. You know, at least they're blue. Blue is awesome.
Anyways, I'm getting a bit off topic myself xD
The entire Imperium blindly reveres the Emperor, Space Wolves included.
Ironically, a lot of what they are doing is the same crap he is against.
Particularly the whole "worshipping" part, the Emperor enforced atheism.
I guess I should read the novels before talking about the fluff xD
And even if the Wolves follow the Emperor, they make it up with their badassery.
Now, even if the Marines not following the Emperor, they are following the guys who "speak for him." they're still sheep. At least the guards have minds of their own and are Badass Normal.
And there's the GK. Oh, the GK. I hate them as most people hate the Ultramarines, even more. I don't really feel like talking about them now, but they are just... Wrong. I mean, the whole memory-wiping stuff is fine, but slaughering entire regiments just to keep their secret? Oh, and don't get me started on that whole Sisters deal...
- Were one of the most successful Legions during the Great Crusade, being the fastest to bring worlds into Compliance, while doing it with the fewest casualties
- WTFpwned the Word Bearers despite being outnumbered and caught by surprise
- Cleansed much of the Eastern fringe of the Ork menace, whether by themselves, or at the head of a multi-Chapter crusade
- Infiltrated and destroyed the Iron Warriors' Fortress of Pain
- Recaptured Forge World Thrax from corrupted AdMech
- First sealed and later destroyed the Daemon Prince M'Kar
- Uriel destroyed the Daemonculaba, preventing the Iron Warriors from amassing an enormous Legion... which is canceled out by Uriel releasing the Nightbringer
- Make tons of money by turning their Primarch's corpse into a tourist attraction
- Then there's all the crap in C:SM, which is really Codex: Ultramarines
In a nutshell, they had the most exemplary record during the Great Crusade, they held the Imperium together in the aftermath of the Heresy, they rule over the largest chunk of territory in the Imperium, their domain is the most self-sufficient and pleasant place to live in the Imperium (read: the only part of it that truly reflects the Emperor's vision), and they kill a lot of Orks and Tyranids, while foiling the Iron Warriors' plans time and time again.
They probably could stand to fight Chaos a bit more often, but seeing as they are literally on the other side of the galaxy from the Eye of Terror, you can't really blame them. The Maelstrom is on the fringe of their territory though, so they should probably be stomping some renegades.
- Were one of the most successful Legions during the Great Crusade, being the fastest to bring worlds into Compliance, while doing it with the fewest casualties
- WTFpwned the Word Bearers despite being outnumbered and caught by surprise
- Cleansed much of the Eastern fringe of the Ork menace, whether by themselves, or at the head of a multi-Chapter crusade
- Infiltrated and destroyed the Iron Warriors' Fortress of Pain
- Recaptured Forge World Thrax from corrupted AdMech
- First sealed and later destroyed the Daemon Prince M'Kar
- Uriel destroyed the Daemonculaba, preventing the Iron Warriors from amassing an enormous Legion... which is canceled out by Uriel releasing the Nightbringer :p
- Make tons of money by turning their Primarch's corpse into a tourist attraction
- Then there's all the crap in C:SM, which is really Codex: Ultramarines
In a nutshell, they had the most exemplary record during the Great Crusade, they rule over the largest chunk of territory in the Imperium, their domain is the most self-sufficient and pleasant place to live in the Imperium (read: the only part of it that truly reflects the Emperor's vision), and they've kill a lot of Tyranids, Orks and Iron Warriors.
Also, their Tyranic War Veterans make up the majority of the Deathwatch chapter.
And what you said about Ultramar is very true. That place is probably one of the safest places in the entire Imperium. And there are high standards of living there, for the Imperium.
You should probably put Calgar punching an Avatar of Khaine to death in there.
Durza wrote:Surely Horus removing the Imperium's best general shows that he was a better general. Guilliman would have realised it was a goose chase if he had truly been a better general than Horus.
Would realizing that really have made Guilliman a "better general"? Or a clairvoyant to shame Magnus, the Emperor and all the Eldar combined?
1. They were ordered to do so by the Warmaster, the favored son of the Emperor and Guilliman's superior officer. The Ultramarines are nothing if not about the chain of command.
2. They were already in the far Eastern fringe because they were so damn good at doing the job the Emperor assigned them. Horus' complicity in keeping them there wasn't added until the HH novels.
Remember, the very idea of treachery among the Astartes was inconceivable at the time. Dorn was ready to slaughter Garro and Iacton for even suggesting that Horus had turned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
forruner_mercy wrote:You should probably put Calgar punching an Avatar of Khaine to death in there.
Well, I tried to keep it to major galactic-level events. If we were to list all the things Calgar did, we'd need 28 volumes.
SickSix wrote:Maybe I missed the cues or you read that story with with a bias view. But that is not what I got out of that at all....
DarknessEternal wrote:We also know exactly what Guilliman was up to, since this is the past to us. He had an opportunity to do what you describe and he specifically abdicated it.
I think you both need to re-read the opening of Rules of Engagement. The Lion's speculation is besides the point. Assuming you read the stories in order, we already knew that
Spoiler:
Guilliman's heresy was far beyond what the Lion could have imagined when the Dark Angels were summoned to Ultramar. The Codex's working title was Imperium Secondus, Guilliman planned it while the Emperor lived and breathed on Terra, and his armies were busily planning to defend Ultramar from Traitor and Loyalist alike. Even Guilliman himself realised that this made him a traitor. Obviously we know that Guilliman's little sucession did not come to pass, but at this point we can only speculate as to why. Perhaps he repented, perhaps his ambitions were thwarted. We'll just have to wait to find out.
So listen up here's a story about a little guy that lives in a blue world, and all day and all night and everything he sees is just blue, like him, inside and outside. Blue his house with the blue little window and a blue corvette and everything is blue for him and himself and everybody around 'cos he ain't go nobody to listen.
Belexar wrote:And now we're talking about the Traitor Legions and the Heresy xD
Honestly, I don't like the entire space marines. Well, I do love the Space Wolves, but the rest are just a bunch of genetically-enhanced sheep to me. Blindly following the words of a man who's been in life-support for a couple thousands of years? I mean, sure, he had awesome psychic powers, but so did Darth Sidious! The thing is, I don't see why UMs should be hated particulary. You know, at least they're blue. Blue is awesome.
Anyways, I'm getting a bit off topic myself xD
The entire Imperium blindly reveres the Emperor, Space Wolves included.
Ironically, a lot of what they are doing is the same crap he is against.
Particularly the whole "worshipping" part, the Emperor enforced atheism.
Space Marines don't worship the Emperor he is more of a father figure to them than a god, because they know better compared to the normal humans who could be called sheep.
SickSix wrote:Maybe I missed the cues or you read that story with with a bias view. But that is not what I got out of that at all....
DarknessEternal wrote:We also know exactly what Guilliman was up to, since this is the past to us. He had an opportunity to do what you describe and he specifically abdicated it.
I think you both need to re-read the opening of Rules of Engagement. The Lion's speculation is besides the point. Assuming you read the stories in order, we already knew that
Spoiler:
Guilliman's heresy was far beyond what the Lion could have imagined when the Dark Angels were summoned to Ultramar. The Codex's working title was Imperium Secondus, Guilliman planned it while the Emperor lived and breathed on Terra, and his armies were busily planning to defend Ultramar from Traitor and Loyalist alike. Even Guilliman himself realised that this made him a traitor. Obviously we know that Guilliman's little sucession did not come to pass, but at this point we can only speculate as to why. Perhaps he repented, perhaps his ambitions were thwarted. We'll just have to wait to find out.
Maybe you need to re-read it yourself, or take off the extremely biased glasses. He says specifically that while his actions may have others call him a traitor, he was trying to preserve the spirit and ideals of the Imperium. He trained against traitors and loyalists alike because at that point no one could be trusted. "Guilliman's little succession" didn't pass because he wasn't trying to become Emperor.
He was preparing for one of two eventualities:
1.) Horus wins. Guilliman is well-entrenched and ready to fight off the Traitors, saving a huge chunk of the Imperium from the predations and degradations of Chaos. The Emperor's vision is preserved and the fight for the galaxy can continue.
2.) The Imperium wins. Guilliman has enough forces to cleanse Imperial territory of any remnants, as well as hold the Imperium together against other threads and any other Primarch that may get ideas. You know, what actually happened.
thenoobbomb wrote:A point in what they good are: sacrefising themselfs to become blue, and so nobody else has to do that...
Are you being serious about this? Or are you joking? Either way, I wish people would leave the color blue out of this. It is a really stupid reason to not like them.
forruner_mercy wrote:
Either way, I wish people would leave the color blue out of this.
Leave blue out? but but ultramarines blue.......
- Crassus armored assault commander Purplefood put a nice interpretation of that "i am blue" song in here, - The old paintscheme was also sort of baby-blue and drove certainly some people off.
forruner_mercy wrote:
Either way, I wish people would leave the color blue out of this.
Leave blue out? but but ultramarines blue.......
- Crassus armored assault commander Purplefood put a nice interpretation of that "i am blue" song in here, - The old paintscheme was also sort of baby-blue and drove certainly some people off.
What I was talking about was hatin' on the UM because they are blue.
Omegus wrote:Does anyone hate on them just for the color? If so, the Imperial Fists should get way more hate.
Apparently. In the "What is wrong with the Ultramarines" thread that I made, some peoples reasons were that they were blue. I'm not sure how they could even think that it was valid.
forruner_mercy wrote: Either way, I wish people would leave the color blue out of this.
Leave blue out? but but ultramarines blue.......
- CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT commander Purplefood put a nice interpretation of that "i am blue" song in here, - The old paintscheme was also sort of baby-blue and drove certainly some people off.
Ward does have the most epic douchebag facial hair ever.
Ultramarines are undoubtedly a successful chapter, no one denies that (Well, except the most biased haters), generally people just have a problem with the "presentation," I think.
I wasn't aware that those who chose not to follow the codex had an issue with their gene-seed. The Black Templar, for example, do so, but their gene-seed is not suspect... just their loyalties.
And the Space Dogs totally deserve to die. All of them. Painfully. And then again in the Warp. More painfully.
Omegus wrote:I wasn't aware that those who chose not to follow the codex had an issue with their gene-seed. The Black Templar, for example, do so, but their gene-seed is not suspect... just their loyalties.
And the Space Dogs totally deserve to die. All of them. Painfully. And then again in the Warp. More painfully.
"The third and final group are aberrants; Chapters who,
through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness,
eschew the Codex Astartes in favour of other structural and
combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their
successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their
recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it.
Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars,
remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own
founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in
the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few
in number and their presence diminishes further with each
passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source
of fresh Chapters. Such divergent Chapters play little part in
this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all
those who follow their example."
- Space Marine codex, page 24
Eh, I dislike the wording, and the implications of gene-seed inferiority, although in the case of the Blood Angels, this is technically true. It also seems heavy-handed in terms of Ultramarine support to me, to be honest. Though frankly, I think Ward in general is a crappy writer, not a fluff writer, but kind of a crappy writer in general. His mechanics are pretty solid though, admittedly.
I actually don't hate Ultramarines. I have a soft spot for Telion in particular, dude is a BAMF.
I also like to think I mostly have avoided the Ward-hate bandwagon, I dislike some of the things he has written, but I don't hate the man or wish ill-will towards him, only his goatee. Though that may change when the Necron codex comes out.
And yeah, not read A Thousand Sons, but I already don't like the Space Wolves, and if they were to get wiped out, well, that would be just fine with me lol.
Void__Dragon wrote:The third and final group are aberrants; Chapters who,
through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness,
eschew the Codex Astartes in favour of other structural and
combat doctrines.
That's a pretty important "or".
But yes, a lot of the Ultra-hate is Ward's fault, because he went overboard in gushing all over them. Like for example, the old fluff for Tigurius (sp?) described him as "one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium". Ward copy&pasted the whole fluff piece, but changed it to be "the most powerful psyker in the Imperium". And all his writing is terrible. His crunch is more internally balanced than say Cruddance, but it is horrendously written as evidenced by the size of the accompanying FAQs and rules flame threads.
"These aberrant Chapters were always few
in number and their presence diminishes further with each
passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source
of fresh Chapters."
This part in particular implies that there is something inherently wrong with all of them.
Successors tend to be quite loyal to their parent Chapter, so that could also be interpreted as them simply not allowing non-complaint Chapters to have successors to avoid potentially treacherous curs from multiplying. Magnus did the world a favor by destroying the Wolves' experiment in creating viable successors.
Yeah, Tigurius, lol. Was the implication that he can tap into the Hive Mind there before Ward? Because a friend of mine is a Tyranid player, and he froths with nerd-rage at the mere mention of Tigurius. And yeah, as a Chief Librarian Tigurius should obviously have few rivals in terms of psykers in the Imperium, but the codex does make it pretty blatant Ward intended him to be numero uno.
Oh yeah, wasn't there a big concern with the Grey Knights codex having a rule that seriously made Tau players unable to do crap to GK players? Something about them being able to tell Plasma weapons to sit down and shut up, and since Plasma, unlike Melta, is not a specific weapon type, and most of Tau weaponry is plasma based... Yeah. Although I did not read much of the GK codex, I mostly just read a few of the fluff descriptions of units, checked out the Dreadknight (Which is obviously a rip-off of Dexter's Laboratory), and then read Kaldor Draigo's fluff entry. I proceeded to stop reading the codex, punched my cat, and took a nap (I did not actually punch my cat).
Edit: Oh, and yeah, you may be right about the "aberrant" chapter successors thing. And Magnus did that huh? Cool deal.
2nd edition Ultramarines codex had like three sentences of fluff for all of the characters. Tyranids are not mentioned.
3rd edition Space Marines codex just had a brief story about him approaching Calgar and saying, "I had a powerful premonition last eve and dreamed a strange dream. I saw a beast rise from the depths, a foul abomination so vast in its hunger that it consumed whole worlds. I dreamed I saw the Emperor, crowned in light as he was in the days of the Crusade, bestriding the galaxy. His sword rested upon Macragge." When Calgar asked him what the hell all that meant, Tigurius said, "The Beast rises from the deeps of the void, the Eastern Fringe I believe. The Emperor has appeared directly, indicating that no other help can be expected. The battle shall be at Macragge, so ready all your warriors and your ships and wait."
In the 4th edition book, they state that Tigurius was always about premonition, "possessed of knowledge that goes beyond the towering data stacks of the Chapter Librarius" and that "there is little that happens that Tigurius does not seem to know". He's been stopping Ork crusades before they begin for decades. The relevant piece says the following:
His predictions about [the Tyranid] movements and intents have been so accurate, that it would appear he has tapped into the Tyranid gestalt consciousness, the very Hive Mind itself. If this is true then Tigurius will have proved himself one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium as lesser individuals have been driven mad by the mere shadow of the Hive Mind.
In the 5th edition book, this is changed to:
His predictions about their movements have been so accurate that it would appear he has tapped into the Tyranid Hive Mind - a feat that has driven lesser individuals quite mad. if this is true then Tigurius will have proved himself the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.
So Ward's re-writing is very similar, but uses stronger language. In the original piece, even the Shadow drives men crazy, and it reads more along the lines of, "man, that guy is so damn good he could be accessing the Hive mind." With Ward, accessing the Hive Mind is totally possible if you're strong enough, and Tigurius is apparently strong enough.
-----
As for the GK nerfing Tau, that's a bit of an exaggeration. The wargear in question is a piece of Wargear that makes plasma weapons fired within 12" of it count as BS1. The FAQ ruled that any pulse weapons were plasma weapons. It honestly isn't that big a deal, as very few people will be taking an Ordo Xenos inquisitor anyway since the HQ slots are so competitive, and even if they do, it's only 12".
Omegus wrote:2nd edition Ultramarines codex had like three sentences of fluff for all of the characters.
3rd edition Space Marines codex just had a brief story about him approaching Calgar and saying, "I had a powerful premonition last eve and dreamed a strange dream. I saw a beast rise from the depths, a foul abomination so vast in its hunger that it consumed whole worlds. I dreamed I saw the Emperor, crowned in light as he was in the days of the Crusade, bestriding the galaxy. His sword rested upon Macragge." When Calgar asked him what the hell all that meant, Tigurius said, "The Beast rises from the deeps of the void, the Eastern Fringe I believe. The Emperor has appeared directly, indicating that no other help can be expected. The battle shall be at Macragge, so ready all your warriors and your ships and wait."
In the 4th edition book, they state that Tigurius was always about premonition, "possessed of knowledge that goes beyond the towering data stacks of the Chapter Librarius" and that "there is little that happens that Tigurius does not seem to know". He's been stopping Ork crusades before they begin for decades. The relevant piece says the following:
His predictions about [the Tyranid] movements and intents have been so accurate, that it would appear he has tapped into the Tyranid gestalt consciousness, the very Hive Mind itself. If this is true then Tigurius will have proved himself one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium as lesser individuals have been driven mad by the mere shadow of the Hive Mind.
In the 5th edition book, this is changed to:
His predictions about their movements have been so accurate that it would appear he has tapped into the Tyranid Hive Mind - a feat that has driven lesser individuals quite mad. if this is true then Tigurius will have proved himself the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.
So Ward's re-writing is very similar, but uses stronger language. In the original piece, even the Shadow drives men crazy, and it reads more along the lines of, "man, that guy is so damn good he could be accessing the Hive mind." With Ward, accessing the Hive Mind is totally possible if you're strong enough, and Tigurius is apparently strong enough.
-----
As for the GK nerfing Tau, that's a bit of an exaggeration. The wargear in question is a piece of Wargear that makes plasma weapons fired within 12" of it count as BS1. The FAQ ruled that any pulse weapons were plasma weapons. It honestly isn't that big a deal, as very few people will be taking an Ordo Xenos inquisitor anyway since the HQ slots are so competitive, and even if they do, it's only 12".
Ah, cool, thanks for the information.
Yeah, that is Ward's thing, his writing is... Well, in this case, it is clearly meant to portray Tiguriius as the ultimate psyker in the Imperium, you are right in describing his writing as using "strong" language, that is kind of a problem IMO, from what I have read. Although it is not the problem with Draigo, "Burned down the Garden of Nurgle" sounds stupid no matter your prose.
Huh, I see.
Yeah, that is not a big deal.
Since if a squad of Grey Knights is that close to the Tau, the Tau are pretty much dead anyway.
Draigo is ridiculous. The things he accomplishes are literally impossible, unless he suddenly became Super Saiyan 4 and The One, all at the same time. I mean, he tears down the Impossible City until no brick is left standing. This is a city that is constantly shifting and rebuilding itself anew all day, every day. Seriously, WTF? I treat his fluff blurb as just overblown fantasy told to novitiates as a bedtime story. Either that, or it is standard issue "relaxation" reading material because porn is not allowed on Titan.
As for Magnus, I'm talking about the events that took place in Battle for the Fang:
Spoiler:
One of the Wolf Lords (the White Wolf? don't remember exactly) is a bit of an outcast among the others because he is introspective and likes to think. His Wolf Priest is performing experiments to solve the instabilities of the Canix Helix, so they can create tons of Space Wolf successor chapters to create an empire to rival Ultramar. He succeeds!
Meanwhile, the Great Wolf/Chapter Master is obsessed with hunting down Magnus. Suddenly, they discover Magnus is "hiding out" on a planet just a few weeks away. The White Wolf comments that it seems a bit suspicious that their quarry is doing a very poor job of hiding in their back yard, and that they have better things to be doing anyway. The other Wolf Lords basically call him a homo, leave him to guard the Fang, get on their tugboats and go off to foight' 'round da world.
Immediately after they leave, the majority of the surviving Thousand Sons forces + assorted traitor Guard show up and lay siege to the Fang. The Wolves make a good accounting of themselves, killing a ridiculous amount of guardsmen and several hundred of the Rubric marines, but the Fang is eventually breached and they lose most of their company as well as thousands of their vassals. Magnus makes an appearance (possessing one of his lieutenants), destroying the research and killing the Wolf Priest and the White Wolf. At this point the remaining Wolves finally come back, the Great Wolf engages Magnus, gets one solid good hit in, but also gets killed by Magnus. Before leaving, Magnus mocks him, saying that although it cost him most of the remainder of his Thousand Sons, he irrevocably destroyed the Space Wolves' legacy and future. The Great Wolf laughs that it was all worth it just to hear Magnus go "ow" when he hit him. /facepalm
In the aftermath, the Wolves pick up the pieces and brand any similar research heresy punishable by death. /double facepalm
Do not forget, the Impossible City is in the middle of the Infinite Labyrinth. HE HAD TO SOLVE ITTO GET THERE. Also, he effortlessly made M'kaechen look like a tool in doing so. From what I hear, M'kaechen is basically the Tzeentch equivelant of Doombreed, aka, the strongest servant Tzeentch has. Even if he isn't, Draigo also beat N'kari, who I am almost positive is Slaanesh's most powerful servant. The dude is literally the strongest being short of the deities like Chaos Gods or C'tan themselves... And even that may be suspect.
Ah delicious spoilers!
I dislike the likening of the Space Wolves to South Park Russel Crowe though, they are not nearly that awesome.
Magnus seems pretty cool... And the Space Wolves seem really stupid. =\
Edit: Hold on, something just occurred to me.
Doesn't the status of the Garden of Nurgle, directly correlate with Nurgle's power?
Draigo "burned it down."
...... My God, Draigo defeated Nurgle.
WARD NEEDS TO THINK ABOUT THE CRAP HE WRITES AND THE IMPLICATIONS HIS WRITING HAS.
I'm surprised he didn't manage to knock up Isha while he was burning down Nurgle's garden. Then Ward would be all set to write his next game destroying codex to outclass even the 7th edition Fantasy Daemons book.
Omegus wrote:I'm surprised he didn't manage to knock up Isha while he was burning down Nurgle's garden. Then Ward would be all set to write his next game destroying codex to outclass even the 7th edition Fantasy Daemons book.
Codex: Son of Draigo
Be afraid, be very afraid.
Oh yeah, WHF Daemons by Ward was incredibly broken, or so I heard.
But the thing is, if someone were to use an Avatar of Khaine as a CCW... Well that would not surprise me at all.
Omegus wrote:I'm surprised he didn't manage to knock up Isha while he was burning down Nurgle's garden. Then Ward would be all set to write his next game destroying codex to outclass even the 7th edition Fantasy Daemons book.
Codex: Son of Draigo
Be afraid, be very afraid.
Oh yeah, WHF Daemons by Ward was incredibly broken, or so I heard.
But the thing is, if someone were to use an Avatar of Khaine as a CCW... Well that would not surprise me at all.
Void__Dragon wrote:Ward does have the most epic douchebag facial hair ever.
Ultramarines are undoubtedly a successful chapter, no one denies that (Well, except the most biased haters), generally people just have a problem with the "presentation," I think.
This right here. The Ultramarines rank as my second favorite chapter (number one belongs to the Imperial Fists), and even I dont like how they are presented.
forruner_mercy wrote:
This right here. The Ultramarines rank as my second favorite chapter (number one belongs to the Imperial Fists), and even I dont like how they are presented.
The Imperial Fists are so hard to hate though. They're good guys who don't get a lot of attention by GW and defended Terra. Great fortification experts too. My first army were fists.
forruner_mercy wrote:
This right here. The Ultramarines rank as my second favorite chapter (number one belongs to the Imperial Fists), and even I dont like how they are presented.
The Imperial Fists are so hard to hate though. They're good guys who don't get a lot of attention by GW and defended Terra. Great fortification experts too. My first army were fists.
If I ever break down and do another SM army I probably will do fists or their angrier cousins.
forruner_mercy wrote:
This right here. The Ultramarines rank as my second favorite chapter (number one belongs to the Imperial Fists), and even I dont like how they are presented.
The Imperial Fists are so hard to hate though. They're good guys who don't get a lot of attention by GW and defended Terra. Great fortification experts too. My first army were fists.
If I ever break down and do another SM army I probably will do fists or their angrier cousins.
I like the yellow more then the blue and red (you are talking about the Crimson Fists, right?).
carbonpillow wrote:The Imperial Fists are so hard to hate though. They're good guys who don't get a lot of attention by GW and defended Terra. Great fortification experts too. My first army were fists.
Debatable. They certainly got schooled in proper fortifications in the Iron Cage. And the only reason the Imperial Palace held as long as it did is because they had an IW Warsmith helping them shore up their defenses. Of course, it didn't help that the Lion practically handed the keys to the palace to the Traitors. What a maroon.
forruner_mercy wrote:
This right here. The Ultramarines rank as my second favorite chapter (number one belongs to the Imperial Fists), and even I dont like how they are presented.
The Imperial Fists are so hard to hate though. They're good guys who don't get a lot of attention by GW and defended Terra. Great fortification experts too. My first army were fists.
If I ever break down and do another SM army I probably will do fists or their angrier cousins.
I like the yellow more then the blue and red (you are talking about the Crimson Fists, right?).
Imperial fists, and ya thats alot of the reason for me, though the color for Deathwing is pretty good too imo
, I don't think he's a traitor, just an arrogant ass.
stupid reason to not like them.
= 
