I just got back in to war gaming last year. No where near a full army, I haven't even had a chance to play a game of the new 40k/fantasy editions. Then they did there embargo, Then they released "Fine Cast" which has its own set of problem and slap us in the face by gouging uis for higher prices then the metal models. since when did cheaper material = higher cost? Those two combine to make me unwilling to support a company which screws its customers around so much and has such a horrible method of running its buisness.

But enough of the GW. Turns out my FLGS has huge support for all things PP! I'm going in for a demo game on Sunday to try out Warmachine. What should i expect rules wise VS 2nd ed 40k and 5th ed fantasy (bot are the last versions i played)? Also whats the normal army size points wise?

Normal size is 35 to 50 points.

Platuan4th wrote:Normal size is 35 to 50 points.

Thanks for the info.

we did a breakdown of Warmachine basics from a 40k perspective on my blog, which you can find here:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2010/12/warmachine-101-game.html

Hope that helps, and welcome to the fold!

-Dis.

cor I dont know if its people In america but the normal size for most games over here (in my local clubs) has been 25 points, with occasional 15 or 35 pointers!

The standard games in my area are 35 points

disdainful wrote:we did a breakdown of Warmachine basics from a 40k perspective on my blog, which you can find here:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2010/12/warmachine-101-game.html

Hope that helps, and welcome to the fold!

-Dis.

Nice write up, very easy to understand your comparisons between the systems. I really like the importance of the individual soldier VS the unit as a whole. Seems to me that the game play will allow of more diverse tactics to be employed.


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Thanks for all points by area. seems getting a decent 25-35 point force will get me in to most games.

Going to be posting my GW stuff on the classifieds tonight after my GF wakes up and tells me what dark elves she wants to keep for painting.

Soverntear wrote:Nice write up, very easy to understand your comparisons between the systems. I really like the importance of the individual soldier VS the unit as a whole. Seems to me that the game play will allow of more diverse tactics to be employed.

The rules definitely allow for a much more precise game than you get with 40k, since it focuses harder on each model rather than the abstractions of units.

I've found in my store that a lot of the more competitive players initially went to WM/H for the stronger competition, and now that GW has been stumbling through some of their latest head-scratching moves, we're seeing a big influx of casual players making the switch as well.

-Dis.

I'm an avid Warmahordes enthusiast and own an extensive collection of the two factions that I play. I've basically rejected GW as a gaming company due to... well, all the things that make GW into GW.

So with that said, I have to caution you that WM/H is a very, very different gaming experience. It's much more granular, some warcasters are quantitatively better than others, and at the small point levels that I'm sure you'll inevitably start at, games can feel very 'rock paper scissors'.

The learning curve is also huge. Two beginning players running into each other have no problem bonking models and throwing dice, just like in GW games. Once a player gets even a little experience, though, they can learn their combos and synergies to pull tricks that look like 30-hit combos straight out of Street Fighter. You'll probably be on the receiving end until you in turn get some experience and figure out the counters.

Although overall balance is quite good (in my opinion) at the 35-50 pt levels the game is meant to be played at, different warcasters can make different units and warjacks do very different things. It definitely pays to do a bit of homework beforehand, look around the PP forums for advice, check out battle college (google it) for broad faction overviews.

I personally find WM/H to be a hugely rewarding game to play, very tactical, and it truly does not reward whichever player gets first turn throwing more 48" gun dice at the other player. As a player, though, you have to "work" harder, learning your list and knowing your opponent.

sourclams wrote:I'm an avid Warmahordes enthusiast and own an extensive collection of the two factions that I play. I've basically rejected GW as a gaming company due to... well, all the things that make GW into GW.

So with that said, I have to caution you that WM/H is a very, very different gaming experience. It's much more granular, some warcasters are quantitatively better than others, and at the small point levels that I'm sure you'll inevitably start at, games can feel very 'rock paper scissors'.

The learning curve is also huge. Two beginning players running into each other have no problem bonking models and throwing dice, just like in GW games. Once a player gets even a little experience, though, they can learn their combos and synergies to pull tricks that look like 30-hit combos straight out of Street Fighter. You'll probably be on the receiving end until you in turn get some experience and figure out the counters.

Although overall balance is quite good (in my opinion) at the 35-50 pt levels the game is meant to be played at, different warcasters can make different units and warjacks do very different things. It definitely pays to do a bit of homework beforehand, look around the PP forums for advice, check out battle college (google it) for broad faction overviews.

I personally find WM/H to be a hugely rewarding game to play, very tactical, and it truly does not reward whichever player gets first turn throwing more 48" gun dice at the other player. As a player, though, you have to "work" harder, learning your list and knowing your opponent.

That post is so solid it should be an article. Sums up our groups foray into Warmahordes.

disdainful wrote:I've found in my store that a lot of the more competitive players initially went to WM/H for the stronger competition, and now that GW has been stumbling through some of their latest head-scratching moves, we're seeing a big influx of casual players making the switch as well.

-Dis.

I'm curious, how has that worked out?

I just made the jump as well. I still have my WFB & W40K armies, but I will probably not buy any new models in the near future. I will just settle on painting what I have.

I just got my first 15 point faction, and I am looking forward to getting games in. But from what I see so far I like it a lot.

Warmahordes seems to have a much better competitive arena. PP seems to have a great tournament system in place with Steamroller, and PP also supports and encourages multiple leagues.

On the modeling/painting side I like not having to stare at 50+ model units to paint, this give me more time to give each model the attention it deserves. But there seems to be less room for conversions as a whole in Warmahordes. If you are not a painter/converter than this is probably a non-issue.

sourclams wrote:I'm an avid Warmahordes enthusiast and own an extensive collection of the two factions that I play. I've basically rejected GW as a gaming company due to... well, all the things that make GW into GW.

So with that said, I have to caution you that WM/H is a very, very different gaming experience. It's much more granular, some warcasters are quantitatively better than others, and at the small point levels that I'm sure you'll inevitably start at, games can feel very 'rock paper scissors'.

The learning curve is also huge. Two beginning players running into each other have no problem bonking models and throwing dice, just like in GW games. Once a player gets even a little experience, though, they can learn their combos and synergies to pull tricks that look like 30-hit combos straight out of Street Fighter. You'll probably be on the receiving end until you in turn get some experience and figure out the counters.

Although overall balance is quite good (in my opinion) at the 35-50 pt levels the game is meant to be played at, different warcasters can make different units and warjacks do very different things. It definitely pays to do a bit of homework beforehand, look around the PP forums for advice, check out battle college (google it) for broad faction overviews.

I personally find WM/H to be a hugely rewarding game to play, very tactical, and it truly does not reward whichever player gets first turn throwing more 48" gun dice at the other player. As a player, though, you have to "work" harder, learning your list and knowing your opponent.

I'm ok with having involved game play that requires forethought and knowledge of the system of rules in place. Thanks for the write up, all the info I'm getting is making warmachine sound like a god send. I have decided on Khador as my first faction, the G/F is going Retribution. Starting small with the battlegroup and a random warcaster / 2 jacks for my g/f's side(based 100% on looks lol). I will look in to the other sites over the next week and I'm playing my first game on Sunday.

It's a better game, I'd argue 40k is more fun/I enjoy it more as Warmahordes feels a bit like magic the gathering but with minatures.

Don't do it! Warmachine is a great game with solid rules. The company actually treats its customers decently! You don't want that. Get back in your gimp suit, slave.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Don't do it! Warmachine is a great game with solid rules. The company actually treats its customers decently! You don't want that. Get back in your gimp suit, slave.

LMAO love the gimp suit reference

I'm not abandoning 40K, but i am being drawn to Warmachine too..

Especially since (as far as I can tell) the factions are balanced againsty each other, with no glaring posterchild army that has rules/points values that beat all other armies.

Now to decide between Khador and Menoth...

Khador is primarily about self sufficient models, along with a rather large of haste buffs, a few defense buffs, and various stuff to make you hit unnecessarily hard. Really high armor countered by low speed on its warjacks, with infantry varying between squishy but ridiculously hard to hit and easy to hit yet a pain in the ass to break armor.

Menoth generally has lots of inexpensive models with somewhat lackluster stats, but a huge amount of ways to buff said stats. They're also the faction of No: No shooting them, no knocking them down, no freezing them, no casting spells on them, etc. Oh, and they love setting things on fire.

Phototoxin wrote:It's a better game, I'd argue 40k is more fun/I enjoy it more as Warmahordes feels a bit like magic the gathering but with minatures.

I think 'fun' is purely subjective, so it'll depend on the person who's playing.

As to Warmachine/Hordes being like M:TG, I'll agree with that - partially.

The game does have some crazy combos that can get you the win, but there are always counters to those combos. Warmachine/Hordes also does not require you to purchase new models (cards) with every release to stay competitive. Take Wrath, for example. You could very well ignore every release in the book, because everything's that come before it is perfectly viable. Not me, though. Harkevich is just too good, especially with Demolishers and Destroyers! And Damiano makes me want to start up a Steelhead 'Pike-and-Shotte' army.

Wrath was a very, very solid release, but I find myself gravitating to the initial Prime release models more and more. I got off a full unit purge with Bile Thralls. It was just funny. Usually I get two or three out of the six to purge in a game, spread over two turns. This time I managed to get a single turn with all 6 purging with the facing set so their purges didn't kill the next guy who was going to purge.

It was glorious.

frozenwastes wrote:Wrath was a very, very solid release, but I find myself gravitating to the initial Prime release models more and more.

Which is one of the reasons I like PP. New releases supplement what already exists, but do not really replace anything.

I'm tempted by Hordes...

Especially the giant alligators/turtle faction.

Can someone post a sample list built using that faction?

Barnabas
Wrong Eye and Snapjaw
Spitter X3 (the turtle)
Bull snapper
swamp gobbers
feralgiest
thrullg

this 35 point list was played against me in our Warmahordes league. as a Cygnar player, the gators are tough to deal with as the only thing i could shoot at was his swamp gobbers and thrullg and they always had concealment. The turtles have an amazing ranged attack and Barnabas' feat knocks down everything within 12 inches of him. all in all a tough list that looked fun to play. Wasn't much fun for my Cygnar though.

Alpharius wrote:I'm tempted by Hordes...

Especially the giant alligators/turtle faction.

Can someone post a sample list built using that faction?

Which ones it the alligator/turtle faction?

I'm surprised to see the Feralgeist and Thrullg in there. Did they do much?

The Blindwater Congregation.
If I was building them (which I will be, soonish) I'd go for something like:
Barnabas (+6)
Bull Snapper (3)
Wrastler (9)
Ironback Spitter (8)
Max Gatormen (9)
Wrong Eye and Snapjaw (9)
Croak Hunter (2)
Feralgeist (1)

Pros: Lots of beefy warbeasts, lots of amphibious models to make use of the free swamps and Swamp Pit spell. Lots of medium bases for screening.
Cons: Low model count. Lacking in some regards with speed boosts and ranged.

Mostly I'd get that list because I like all those models though

Edit: For 1 point the Feralgeist is really, really awesome.

Soverntear wrote:I just got back in to war gaming last year. No where near a full army, I haven't even had a chance to play a game of the new 40k/fantasy editions. Then they did there embargo, Then they released "Fine Cast" which has its own set of problem and slap us in the face by gouging uis for higher prices then the metal models. since when did cheaper material = higher cost? Those two combine to make me unwilling to support a company which screws its customers around so much and has such a horrible method of running its buisness.

But enough of the GW. Turns out my FLGS has huge support for all things PP! I'm going in for a demo game on Sunday to try out Warmachine. What should i expect rules wise VS 2nd ed 40k and 5th ed fantasy (bot are the last versions i played)? Also whats the normal army size points wise?

Different then anything you've played with 40K.

Plays crisper and more involved. There is a little issue with a couple of finer points, but other then that, You learn fast to keep your caster safe, and screen them with a good infantry squad.

Game also favors the attacker, and agressive play, In asmuch as it attracts TFG's.

Have fun, but know what your getting into with your own judgement after seeing how it goes for yourself.



I like it, but not for the same reasons as everyone else. I already KNEW about the RPG stuff way back in the day when it came out as a D and D suppliment.
I fell in on the thick RPG books and really liked thier direction. When I found the Miniatures, I thought the same thing I did when I first started reading the Red, Blue and Green books of D and D. That they looked exactly like the illustrations and fit the background material of the game.

First got into it, I was excited in the same way you were when you picked up your first RPG or Minis game that you enjoyed. I started playing it with a few of the choicer of those TFG types- I was put off with thier crowd. SOme of them took rules lawer to another level and really put off wanting to play any other games with them.

Hordes came out, it was like the advanced D and D, in playing OUTSIDE the dungeon crawl. Good game, but if your not a Basic Warmachine player it might seem different.



All in all a good game, but don't kid yourself that it's cheaper then Warhammer/ Warhammer 40K.

Da Boss wrote:The Blindwater Congregation.
If I was building them (which I will be, soonish) I'd go for something like:
Barnabas (+6)
Bull Snapper (3)
Wrastler (9)
Ironback Spitter (8)
Max Gatormen (9)
Wrong Eye and Snapjaw (9)
Croak Hunter (2)
Feralgeist (1)

Pros: Lots of beefy warbeasts, lots of amphibious models to make use of the free swamps and Swamp Pit spell. Lots of medium bases for screening.
Cons: Low model count. Lacking in some regards with speed boosts and ranged.

Mostly I'd get that list because I like all those models though

Edit: For 1 point the Feralgeist is really, really awesome.

Thanks for the list!

Does "Max Gatormen" mean a blister of 3, or two blisters of 3 or...something else?

Box of three plus two blisters of one. Max unit for Gatormen (and all non-Skorne heavy infantry) is five models.


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AgeOfEgos wrote:I'm surprised to see the Feralgeist and Thrullg in there. Did they do much?

The Feralgeist is extremely useful for its points. It basically turns a dead warbeast into a giant super solo, while the Thrullg is the Hordes equivalent of eEiryss: A great utility model for stripping focus and upkeep spells off models. The Thrullg is especially useful in Blindwater, as there's plenty of medium bases to protect it from being shot right off the bat.

Grot 6 wrote:

Soverntear wrote:I just got back in to war gaming last year. No where near a full army, I haven't even had a chance to play a game of the new 40k/fantasy editions. Then they did there embargo, Then they released "Fine Cast" which has its own set of problem and slap us in the face by gouging uis for higher prices then the metal models. since when did cheaper material = higher cost? Those two combine to make me unwilling to support a company which screws its customers around so much and has such a horrible method of running its buisness.

But enough of the GW. Turns out my FLGS has huge support for all things PP! I'm going in for a demo game on Sunday to try out Warmachine. What should i expect rules wise VS 2nd ed 40k and 5th ed fantasy (bot are the last versions i played)? Also whats the normal army size points wise?

Different then anything you've played with 40K.

Plays crisper and more involved. There is a little issue with a couple of finer points, but other then that, You learn fast to keep your caster safe, and screen them with a good infantry squad.

Game also favors the attacker, and agressive play, In asmuch as it attracts TFG's.

Have fun, but know what your getting into with your own judgement after seeing how it goes for yourself.



I like it, but not for the same reasons as everyone else. I already KNEW about the RPG stuff way back in the day when it came out as a D and D suppliment.
I fell in on the thick RPG books and really liked thier direction. When I found the Miniatures, I thought the same thing I did when I first started reading the Red, Blue and Green books of D and D. That they looked exactly like the illustrations and fit the background material of the game.

First got into it, I was excited in the same way you were when you picked up your first RPG or Minis game that you enjoyed. I started playing it with a few of the choicer of those TFG types- I was put off with thier crowd. SOme of them took rules lawer to another level and really put off wanting to play any other games with them.

Hordes came out, it was like the advanced D and D, in playing OUTSIDE the dungeon crawl. Good game, but if your not a Basic Warmachine player it might seem different.



All in all a good game, but don't kid yourself that it's cheaper then Warhammer/ Warhammer 40K.

Again a great point of view. thanks everyone for being informative in your write ups. I'm sure they are helping others decide as much as its helping me.

Having watched a bunch of demos and games on youtube, the initial system seems so much more streamlined then WH/40k and I like how all units seem able to pull there own weight. The kick down the door style is also somehting im a fan of. sure im going to encounter rules laywers and power gamers. I run Palladium books Rifts as my main RPG of choice, believe me when I tell you I've seen munchkin power gaming rule breaking combos that would put ANY other system out there to shame. I also played MTG, that game has more rules douche bags and annoying ass hats then anything in the world combined

Now on to price, how can you say its not cheaper? form the 50 point lists ive seen on forums they all come in $100+ cheaper then a 2k force in warhammer. That being said it could be a lot more expensive then WH/40k and I would still jump ship due to the way GW treats its customers and retailers.

A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Dais wrote:A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

I can see that happening. But also consider how many people have multiple WH/40k lists. Myself I was going for a SKaven list, Space wolf, ork and wood elf. So really no difference there.

plastictrees wrote:There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Balanced is something I will see with my own eyes. That being said, wh/40k is FAR from balanced I mean hell DE(40k) went what 10 years with out a new codex and suffered how badly? On the front of lists, of course there's power house lists and of course I'm going to see similar lists this is the nature of a statistical battle game. Vampire counts comes to mind, the only core choice worth taking is ghouls and evey army in order to be somewhat competitive better have a grave guard death star. so far the negitive points I'm seeing are all just as rampant in GW games.

I've thought of switching over to warmahordes from 40k. I have some warmachine and a LOT of 40k. I like both games a lot but hate GW to a degree and PP is nice.

Hawk wrote:I've thought of switching over to warmahordes from 40k. I have some warmachine and a LOT of 40k. I like both games a lot but hate GW to a degree and PP is nice.

Having a large stock of minis would make the switch harder no doubt. I have a small collection which makes it easier to get out of. GW hate is the reason 100%.

all I have to say about GW's recent actions is I realize I'm a dinosaur and that civility, manners and plain common courtesy are a thing of the past but still, on the scale of people peeing on your leg, that's peeing above the knee

Soverntear wrote:

Dais wrote:A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

I can see that happening. But also consider how many people have multiple WH/40k lists. Myself I was going for a SKaven list, Space wolf, ork and wood elf. So really no difference there.

plastictrees wrote:There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Balanced is something I will see with my own eyes. That being said, wh/40k is FAR from balanced I mean hell DE(40k) went what 10 years with out a new codex and suffered how badly? On the front of lists, of course there's power house lists and of course I'm going to see similar lists this is the nature of a statistical battle game. Vampire counts comes to mind, the only core choice worth taking is ghouls and evey army in order to be somewhat competitive better have a grave guard death star. so far the negitive points I'm seeing are all just as rampant in GW games.

See, you've got the defensive anti-GW patter down and arrogant dismissal of friendly advice, you just need to get your irrational hatred of plastic models badge and you'll be a fully fledged Warmachine Cub Scout.

plastictrees wrote:

Soverntear wrote:

Dais wrote:A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

I can see that happening. But also consider how many people have multiple WH/40k lists. Myself I was going for a SKaven list, Space wolf, ork and wood elf. So really no difference there.

plastictrees wrote:There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Balanced is something I will see with my own eyes. That being said, wh/40k is FAR from balanced I mean hell DE(40k) went what 10 years with out a new codex and suffered how badly? On the front of lists, of course there's power house lists and of course I'm going to see similar lists this is the nature of a statistical battle game. Vampire counts comes to mind, the only core choice worth taking is ghouls and evey army in order to be somewhat competitive better have a grave guard death star. so far the negitive points I'm seeing are all just as rampant in GW games.

See, you've got the defensive anti-GW patter down and arrogant dismissal of friendly advice, you just need to get your irrational hatred of plastic models badge and you'll be a fully fledged Warmachine Cub Scout.

Wow some is a bit easy to offend. I merely was making direct comparisons between the systems. Both are valid examples of GW not releasing balanced list options across the board. At no point did I dismiss your advice, I simply retorted with examples in 40k and fantasy that draw out your points.

Now if you would like to offer valid and USEFUL information to the thread that is intended to help players who are thinking of moving over to Warmachine, please do continue too. Up until your last post you were quite helpful and provided great information. The only difference between out posts is you stating there are mandatory things to take in the factions of warmachine and me stating that vampire counts also has mandatory things to include in a list A.K.A a direct parallel in the system I am moving out of and you seem to think I'm a fan boy.

At no point did I say that these were issues that were unique to Warmachine. I'm not sure how omitting any negatives that might also be true in Warhammer is useful. Many people either don't play Warhammer or play in a small group of friends that might not have experienced the impact of very competitive play on list building.
PPs support of tournament play (and to a lesser extent some of the page 5 mythos that still clings to Warmachine) tends to make metas a little less "friendly" than they might be for Warhammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, but it can come as a surprise, to the extent that people have been put off the game entirely after initial struggles.

plastictrees wrote:At no point did I say that these were issues that were unique to Warmachine. I'm not sure how omitting any negatives that might also be true in Warhammer is useful. Many people either don't play Warhammer or play in a small group of friends that might not have experienced the impact of very competitive play on list building.
PPs support of tournament play (and to a lesser extent some of the page 5 mythos that still clings to Warmachine) tends to make metas a little less "friendly" than they might be for Warhammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, but it can come as a surprise, to the extent that people have been put off the game entirely after initial struggles.

Plastictrees, that's much more what i was looking for. Sorry if i seemed rude in the last post, but i am trying to make this as constructive as possible and well as we all knwo on the net, one comment can turn in to a blizzard of sillyness. I know you did nto state they we're uinique issues to warmachine, I was just pointing out that it is in fact a flaw inherent in most war games and my experience is mostly with GW so that was the example I drew upon. The high competitive edge caused by page 5 and the PP tourny system(i have no idea about it so i'm going to assume its similar to page 5) will take some adjustment, I'm hoping theres at least a couple people at my FLGS that are willing to tone it down a tiny bit when i first start. But if not, then i get stomped and learn from the experience. It's similar in MTG very unforgiving to the newbie I think i played for a few weeks before i scored my first win.

Again sorry if i came off prickish or unappreciative of your input to this thread.

Laughing Man wrote:
The Feralgeist is extremely useful for its points. It basically turns a dead warbeast into a giant super solo, while the Thrullg is the Hordes equivalent of eEiryss: A great utility model for stripping focus and upkeep spells off models. The Thrullg is especially useful in Blindwater, as there's plenty of medium bases to protect it from being shot right off the bat.

The Feralgeist is cheap---I didn't realize he was a point! Also, I freely admit I'm just starting to dip my toes into the water (har har pun)---and everything I'm thinking out loud right is now is complete theory hammer. So I appreciate the feedback of someone who has experience in the game!

The Thrullg though---that just looks like it would disrupt/strip focus then get splatted with the Def/AV it's packing. Nothing really popped up in a cursory Google---what has your experience been using him (considering he's 3 points!).

AgeOfEgos wrote:

The Thrullg though---that just looks like it would disrupt/strip focus then get splatted with the Def/AV it's packing. Nothing really popped up in a cursory Google---what has your experience been using him (considering he's 3 points!).

If it's managed to strip focus then your opponents caster is probably about to get his teeth kicked in, so the Thrullg's durability next turn is moot. He works well with this sort of list as you have plenty of med+ bases to hide him behind for the first couple of turns and then by turn three your opponent might have other things to worry about. Like anything else in Warmachine though, if your opponent really wants him dead it's probably going to happen. (Magical weapons can also be super handy).




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Soverntear wrote: The high competitive edge caused by page 5 and the PP tourny system(i have no idea about it so i'm going to assume its similar to page 5) will take some adjustment, I'm hoping theres at least a couple people at my FLGS that are willing to tone it down a tiny bit when i first start. But if not, then i get stomped and learn from the experience. It's similar in MTG very unforgiving to the newbie I think i played for a few weeks before i scored my first win.

Again sorry if i came off prickish or unappreciative of your input to this thread.

No, it's possible that I'm a little highly strung from newborn baby sleeplessness. Or I'm a jerk. Either way conciliatory man-hugs all round!

I think just knowing that you're probably going to get your ass kicked early on mitigates the ass kicking somewhat.

Yeah, I lost my first ten or so games in a row of Warmachine before it "clicked" how I was supposed to play.
Also, there is a certain amount of "This unit good with this caster" going on that I didn't get for a while. There are no-brainer lists and then there are non-optimised lists. I'd say it's slightly less obvious than in 40K, but there are definitely synergies and stuff within factions.

The "everybody gets some love" release schedule is much, much better though- nobody gets left out of an expansion and it's a great feeling.

AoE: The FG is really good in a beast heavy list. He can hop from dead beast to dead beast, giving you that critical extra turn of attacks with each of them. Just watch out for him getting pegged early on with spells and stuff.

I haven't played Thrullg, but I would imagine he's a finesse peice. You'd have to have something "lined up" to take advantage of his special rules, and it's more than likely he'll die after he does his thing. But if his death allows an assassination, then it's alllll good.

Warmachine and Hordes are all about options on the table rather than options at list building. You pick your units caster, and get going. But once you put them down on the table, there are an array of buffs, debuffs, special abilities and feats that can make them better or worse in almost any situation. My Trollblood Kriel Warriors can go from cheap chaff to Uber-Tarpit with the right buffs. My slow and lumbering Dire Trolls can become speedy missiles with the correct combo-ing. (Okay, Trolls are a slightly unfair advantage since their whole shtick is synergy, but the same is true maybe to a lesser extent of every faction).
Because of that, I've found winning comes down a bit more to your skill on the table at making the right choices and plays than your skill at list building (which is a bit more of a predictor in 40K). My biggest successes have been with balanced lists that combine a bit of everything. That could just be my caster preference and playstyle though.

plastictrees wrote:People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.

PP gets plenty wrong, but they get far, far, faaaaaaaarrrrr more right.

WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well, the top tiers of play (sanctioned tournaments) show very good representation between Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion, and even Retribution (the faction largely complained about having the poorest warcasters and inability to deal with stealth). I believe Skorne actually placed in a relatively large regional Steamroller event this year as well, which would make 6 factions of the 'Big Nine' tournament viable. Cygnar doesn't seem to do great in tournaments, but they're currently leading the national summer League play (does GW run summer leagues? lolol) so clearly people have figured out how to make stuff work there as well. Perfect? No, but a game system that you can walk into and only have difficulty with 2 of 9 factions from a fundamental gameplay perspective? That's a damn sight better than most game systems can provide.

Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

This is far more true of some factions relative to others. For example, Menoth is near-always going to have its core support units of Choir, Book, and Vassal. Probably Avatar in there as well. That's a solid 18 points spent right there, common to most lists. By definition 35 point lists are going to look pretty similar. Once you get to 50, however, which is the common value for Masters, League, and Steamroller events, then you see more diversification.

The 'net-decking' is also pretty over-hyped in many cases. You hear all the time how Skorne only ever plays Molik Karn bullet and if a list doesn't have Molik Karn then it's destined to lose. But the top-tier player winning competitive events is ignoring MK entirely and going for attrition warlocks like Zaal and Mordikaar. A lot of posts on the forums are lists based around the Makedas and MK, and tutorials on how to execute the MK bullet because it's such a well known Skorne Weapon of Caster Destruction, but when rubber hits pavement the 'best' choose something else.

And, of course, different casters make the same unit play completely differently. This is actually a good thing for new players, as they can buy, for example, a full unit of Winterguard, a Spriggan, and Kayazy Assassins and now have viable lists but dynamically different playstyles with pIrusk, pButcher, Old Witch, and eSorscha.


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Da Boss wrote:
I haven't played Thrullg, but I would imagine he's a finesse peice. You'd have to have something "lined up" to take advantage of his special rules, and it's more than likely he'll die after he does his thing. But if his death allows an assassination, then it's alllll good.

The only warlock I ever used Thrullg repeatedly with was eLylith. Nothing in the entire army had a weapon greater than POW/P&S 16 (eLylith, 2x Ravagores, Bolt Thrower, Gators, and some other single small model bases) so Thrullg was necessary as an insurance policy versus fighty casters camping focus or arcane shielded (or equivalent) heavy warjacks that could shrug off boosted POW 15s.

With more in-your-face warlock/lists, I found Thrullg lacking as he would either get shot to death trying to stay up front with my offensive units or contribute very little to my fighty Heavies (Bronzeback Titan cares not for your ARM21!).

sourclams wrote:

PP gets plenty wrong, but they get far, far, faaaaaaaarrrrr more right.

WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well, the top tiers of play (sanctioned tournaments) show very good representation between Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion, and even Retribution (the faction largely complained about having the poorest warcasters and inability to deal with stealth). I believe Skorne actually placed in a relatively large regional Steamroller event this year as well, which would make 6 factions of the 'Big Nine' tournament viable. Cygnar doesn't seem to do great in tournaments, but they're currently leading the national summer League play (does GW run summer leagues? lolol) so clearly people have figured out how to make stuff work there as well. Perfect? No, but a game system that you can walk into and only have difficulty with 2 of 9 factions from a fundamental gameplay perspective? That's a damn sight better than most game systems can provide.

I think cross faction balance is pretty good, balance within each faction is lacking IMO. Again (again) I'm not saying that other games don't have problems.

sourclams wrote:This is far more true of some factions relative to others. For example, Menoth is near-always going to have its core support units of Choir, Book, and Vassal. Probably Avatar in there as well. That's a solid 18 points spent right there, common to most lists. By definition 35 point lists are going to look pretty similar. Once you get to 50, however, which is the common value for Masters, League, and Steamroller events, then you see more diversification.

The 'net-decking' is also pretty over-hyped in many cases. You hear all the time how Skorne only ever plays Molik Karn bullet and if a list doesn't have Molik Karn then it's destined to lose. But the top-tier player winning competitive events is ignoring MK entirely and going for attrition warlocks like Zaal and Mordikaar. A lot of posts on the forums are lists based around the Makedas and MK, and tutorials on how to execute the MK bullet because it's such a well known Skorne Weapon of Caster Destruction, but when rubber hits pavement the 'best' choose something else.

To elaborate on my point, I find the repetition and copy-paste advice on the forums annoying more than anything else. You can go a little bit crazy jumping between Battle College, where everything is the greatest choice ever, and the PP forums where if you don't take the same eight models you're crippling yourself. There's plenty of reason to ignore all of that, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot very powerful choices that outshine other options in that faction, it just might not matter outside of a certain level of play.

If you are going to jump into warmachine, make sure you take care of all the tokens/templates and card holders that you think you may need. It makes life alot easier.

(And don't just go for the PP token sets, talk to some of your local players to see what they use and what is "accepted" by the local meta/group.)

For example, I see alot of people using brass rings for smoke templates and such, and then quarter sized tokens with damage boxes printed on them to set next to multi-wound models to make it easier to see which ones have taken damage. These little things can take some of the "guesswork" out of what is going on in the game and make for less discrepancies.

Also, having a base sized template for placing and tramples/direction also really stops those "hurt feelings" when both players can't agree on the correct angle/direction/etc. Finally, make sure you mark on your models bases where their front arcs are. Most players do this with a paint dot or line painted on the edge of the base (or some paint the entire edge a different color). Facing plays a much bigger role in WM/H then 40k, and most models have their heads turned one way and their bodies another, making it sometimes unclear which way they are facing without marking it on the base.

The game is all about combos, synergy, and "deck building".

In many ways it emulates CCGs in miniatures form. IF you like/hate M:TG you will probably feel a similar way in regards to Warmachine.

Also the Warmachine community as a whole is heavily competition/tourney focused. It isn't a game that is usuaally played casually. Even pick up games tend to be ultra-competative. Warmachine could easily be called "sportsmachine". That may or may not be a good thing depending on how you approach gaming.

The lack of customization of models and amount of non-painted models you might encounter can also be off-putting to those used to the emphasis the GW community puts on such things.

It is a great game. but very complex in terms of strategies, synergies/combs, etc. Expect to lose alot in the beginning. The game rewards those who are dedicated and competative. It is not a game for bandwagon/casual gamers...

plastictrees wrote:

No, it's possible that I'm a little highly strung from newborn baby sleeplessness. Or I'm a jerk. Either way conciliatory man-hugs all round!

I think just knowing that you're probably going to get your ass kicked early on mitigates the ass kicking somewhat.

Awww, congrats on the little one! Did you have a Boy or a Girl? No need to apologize, it's a stressful time in the little ones life and im sure like most they are making their stress your stress Man-hugs right back at yah, also running chest bump would have been acceptable.

Having the info will soften the blow, I'm excited to exact my vengeance n those who beat the snot out of me later on in my warmahordes career.

robertsjf wrote:

disdainful wrote:I've found in my store that a lot of the more competitive players initially went to WM/H for the stronger competition, and now that GW has been stumbling through some of their latest head-scratching moves, we're seeing a big influx of casual players making the switch as well.

-Dis.

I'm curious, how has that worked out?

Our first big wave of new blood into WM/H happened right after my store opened; I came from a GW background but I was big into the PP games as well, so I made sure there was the full range available and I expect that the availability was one of the driving factors in the first wave. We built up a large crowd that plays on multiple days during the week, and that maintained very well. A lot of competitive players came over for the leaner tournament format (our guy isn't a PG and runs a super-strict SR event with no loose ends), but we also have a big group of casual players who liked the setting/minis/"something new" vibe and have been having a lot of fun. That group in particular has been bolstered a lot by the recent GW moves. On any given game night you'll find guys fumbling their way through a battlebox game, some casual guys throwing dice, and competitive players testing lists with round timers and no take-backs.

The delineation between the knives-out serious players and the casual guys is pretty clear; most of the more bloody-minded have a wider variety of models to choose from and will usually pull out some softer gloves when squaring off against a newer guy or a casual player, and most of us have adopted the notion of coming to game night with a couple list options in mind so that someone never gets stuck in a terrible match-up because they only brought one list.

sourclams wrote:The 'net-decking' is also pretty over-hyped in many cases. You hear all the time how Skorne only ever plays Molik Karn bullet and if a list doesn't have Molik Karn then it's destined to lose. But the top-tier player winning competitive events is ignoring MK entirely and going for attrition warlocks like Zaal and Mordikaar. A lot of posts on the forums are lists based around the Makedas and MK, and tutorials on how to execute the MK bullet because it's such a well known Skorne Weapon of Caster Destruction, but when rubber hits pavement the 'best' choose something else.

I wouldn't say they always choose something else; a top-tier player running a top-tier list is going to be a brutal fight for anyone, whether or not they know what's coming. I will agree that top players often have off-the-wall stuff from the perspective of the net-deck majority, since they can 'see the matrix' better and plan for the expected metagame more effectively. We have a local Menoth player who runs a monstrous Testament of Menoth list as his alternate in tournaments, and he does very well with it, thanks in no small part to the fact that most people probably haven't seen Testament across the table from them! It's the same story with folks like Mordikaar. He's so rare, the one game you have against him in an event is a rough fight; you're constantly on the back foot since you don't know what he does!

Zaal, however, that guy's a boss! We all learned real quick what he does, and we see him a lot.

-Dis.

sourclams wrote:WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well, the top tiers of play (sanctioned tournaments) show very good representation between Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion, and even Retribution (the faction largely complained about having the poorest warcasters and inability to deal with stealth). I believe Skorne actually placed in a relatively large regional Steamroller event this year as well, which would make 6 factions of the 'Big Nine' tournament viable. Cygnar doesn't seem to do great in tournaments, but they're currently leading the national summer League play (does GW run summer leagues? lolol) so clearly people have figured out how to make stuff work there as well. Perfect? No, but a game system that you can walk into and only have difficulty with 2 of 9 factions from a fundamental gameplay perspective? That's a damn sight better than most game systems can provide.

Don't forget the Mercs or Minions, sourclams, or both Lord Carver and Drake MacBain will be after your head

On a slightly more serious note, where do you think the various pacts/contracts fit into the power structure?

The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Mercs and Minions are a little bit like the Mini-dex armies from 3rd ed. Limited in scope but very good at what they do.

Laughing Man wrote:The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Think Blindwater will get some more love? I've read the Hordes book a couple of times---and tried theoryhammering the Blindwater army lists out best I can---I can see me struggling with Heavy Jacks though. If it's alive, I'll eat it I think---but don't know about Heavies...

Your experiences?

I expect Blindwater will be treated the same as the Farrow. PP tend to be pretty evenhanded with releases.

Laughing Man wrote:The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Basically, this.

I know a good 40k player who wants to get into WM/H and really likes Gators. We've explained to him that he'll be able to play, certainly, but he simply won't have as many options as the 'Big 9' which will make his gameplay a little predictable, and therefore less competitive.

Farrow are in a similar place, although with a unit or two more to pick from.

I imagine that pigs n' gators will be fully viable in time, but right now I think they're very much a secondary faction.

Go over to PP, give it a whirl.

If you enjoy smaller games, with superior sculpts, you will never look back.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Think Blindwater will get some more love? I've read the Hordes book a couple of times---and tried theoryhammering the Blindwater army lists out best I can---I can see me struggling with Heavy Jacks though. If it's alive, I'll eat it I think---but don't know about Heavies...

Your experiences?

Oh, they'll definitely get more love. We know they're getting an Undead caster already, and from what we've seen of the ham, gators should get a couple more choices as well. I'm kind of hoping for a unit of Anuras myself, as I really like the frog aesthetic, but a bogrin unit would be pretty damn sweet too. There's a ton of options in the fluff, honestly.

As for dealing with heavies, you're fielding a list with one of the best power attackers in the game and the ability to spawn shallow water on a whim. If heavy jacks are a problem for you, you're doing it wrong.

Laughing Man wrote:As for dealing with heavies, you're fielding a list with one of the best power attackers in the game and the ability to spawn shallow water on a whim. If heavy jacks are a problem for you, you're doing it wrong.

Not disagreeing 'whole clothe' with your comment, but:

The most jack-heavy faction, Menoth, is virtually always immune to knockdown, virtually all the time.

Irusk's Superiority-ed Behemoth (or whatever) is immune to KD, Karchev's battlegroup is immune to KD when B2B and under Sidearms.

Neither Carnivean nor Titan Warbeasts care about marshland.

And yeah, I'm pulling the most favorable specific examples to create this counterpoint, but when Barnabas' entire schtick vs high armor is knocking it down or drowning it, there are a lot of problems with that schtick when you run into one of the above.

Now, Calaban's battlegroup with Parasite can tear through even Menoth Templars, but that results in some of the predictability due to lack of options cited earlier.

If you're throwing one of Karchev's warjacks into water, it's no longer in BtB, and the same goes for chucking a Templar out of the Covenant's command range. Similarly, the Thrullg can help out with upkeeps that prevent KD like Superiority. Finally, the Wrastler has 3 attacks, including a P+S 17 bite that's bound to put the hurt to everything but a Devastator.

But yeah, there'll always be a few bad match-ups with any list, and unilving extremely high armor models that you can't drown is one of Blindwater's. Of course, with the amazing flying wrastler circus, it's fairly easy to avoid them anyhow.

CT GAMER wrote:The game is all about combos, synergy, and "deck building".

In many ways it emulates CCGs in miniatures form. IF you like/hate M:TG you will probably feel a similar way in regards to Warmachine.

and

WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well

Interesting, that was generally my experience as well, its about combos and deck building. I liked the game for the lower model count (vs 40k) and the great minis and ideas. I didn't think so much of the actual play. What some people describe as combined arms, I see more as cheesy combos, YMMV. (For the record I HATE 40k design for characters like Vulkan Hestan, and generally EVERY warcaster is like that with army changing dynamics, of course this might be a plus for some readers.)

Most games come down to some conclusive, egregious multi stack combo and some games are so slanted due to match up they're not very fun or fair. Furthermore the games don't always yield a very satisfying result because when the warcasters are gone that side effectively loses.

From a Warhammer perspective: It's like playing 40k with nothing but HQs, Walkers and a little infantry and every army is like vampire counts, when the HQ dies you loose. If that sounds fun, go for it, if not, probably don't.

It is kind of neat to have the characters actually command things and tie into the army instead of just being bigger beat sticks!

I didn't think it was very fun to have destroyed nearly an entire enemy army just to have a combined feat spell boosted attack chain kill my warcaster and end up with my entire army and their wounded caster and armless jacks and have it be a loss. Likewise it's not very fun to play a 1 or 2 turn game against a a NUB and bust out a chain combo that kills their caster in opening moves. Those feel like lopsided half games.

I find many, not all, Warmachine players consider this 'good' play, and I don't really.

Also I use to think it was a cheaper game but, after buying several $50 box sets, I think not really, a nice army for WM is still worth about $400 minimum, usually more.

Another Warhammer centric concern is painting, few Warmahorde players paint there stuff, actually, probably about the same proportion as Warhammer guys in truth, it's just more irritating because generally Warmahorde armies are a fraction the size of 40k armies.

Also terrain is usually much less striking, the boards generally are much smaller 4x4 and use 2-4 pieces of little terrain, it's seldom much of a spectacle as the terrain is abstracted a little differently. If you need the bigger battles for fun and like large armies and scenery, Warmachine doesn't really scale up that way very well, and the player base seems happy to play with a couple trees and a box. Warmahordes never goes 3D either and ruins and multi stack things aren't really on the table at all, it's a 'flat' game.

No tanks, maybe you like that more maybe not, you're call. I like tanks!

The resin models are generally clearly better than finecast, which is ironic as they were also first. Resin Warjacks are awesome. Unforunately Resin warcasters, the skinny ones, are about as mis shapen as finecast generally is, get metal equivalents IMO.

How big of games are you playing that you're spending $400 on an army? My 50 pt list ran about $200, and I'm fielding an infantry heavy eSorscha list with Beast-09. O.o

Terrain and painting are also probably rather subject to your local meta. Most of the locals here have fully painted armies, and I've seen a fair amount of multilevel tables (cliffs and such add a great amount of Fun to power attacks, incidentally). I generally have about eight to twelve terrain pieces on the table myself, typically a mix of low walls, forests, hills, and obstructions. Tournament tables tend to be about the same in my experience.

Most of your other points are quite valid, of course, if subjective. If you don't like character models that change up your entire army, this probably isn't the game for you. If you don't like your HQ choice actually mattering, this probably isn't the game for you. If you don't like being able to stage a comeback at any point in the game, this probably isn't the game for you. If you're looking for tanks in a steampunk game, walk back the way you came. Perhaps consider FoW or a ground-heavy Dystopian Wars force.

Oh, and the battle boxes are plastic, not resin.

Im excited to get my Cryx box and start painting it!

I posted this in the DCM forum;




Cygnar Battleforce 40 bucks
Long Gunner box 40 bucks
Stormblade box 40 bucks
Gun Mage box 27 bucks
Journeyman 7 bucks


150 bucks gives you a pretty good 35 point force (which 'feels' like a sub 1850 game of 40k to me). Upgrade to 50 for another 50 bucks with Strangewayes, Stormclad and UA (Which 'feels' like a 1850ish+ game to me). So 200 bucks gives you a pretty good 50 point force (Which seems to be the Steamroller format---35 or 50).

Let's make a competitive 1850 Vulkan list!

(all prices at 20% off)
Vulkan 16 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
TH/SS Terms 40 bucks
---LRC 45 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Scout Squad 20 bucks
----Telion 12 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 24 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 25 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks

485 dollars

That's actually 1800---so you have some room for upgrades (Where I don't know, PF on Tac squads is pretty pointless). But 50 is there if you want it.



I have no idea about the terrain issue. Right now in 40k shooting through almost all terrain is the same as shooting at almost anything in the game (4+ cover). Between vehicles, wrecks, trees, brush, other infantry---it's all a 4+ save right now. WM has two differentiating types of cover, very clear LOS rules and encourages you to slam models off hills, into other models, buildings, water, etc.

I'm relatively new to WM---but I feel it's much more interactive with terrain than 5th Ed. 40k.

I still find the cost of both games about the same.

I can make my 1850 Tourney army for the same cost it would take me to build a Tourney Warmachine army.


most warmahorde tourneys ive seen, require 2 lists.. which means im building 2 armies as the warcasters i like use different units to compliment them.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I posted this in the DCM forum;

Cygnar Battleforce 40 bucks
Long Gunner box 40 bucks
Stormblade box 40 bucks
Gun Mage box 27 bucks
Journeyman 7 bucks


150 bucks gives you a pretty good 35 point force (which 'feels' like a sub 1850 game of 40k to me). Upgrade to 50 for another 50 bucks with Strangewayes, Stormclad and UA (Which 'feels' like a 1850ish+ game to me). So 200 bucks gives you a pretty good 50 point force (Which seems to be the Steamroller format---35 or 50).

Let's make a competitive 1850 Vulkan list!

(all prices at 20% off)
Vulkan 16 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
TH/SS Terms 40 bucks
---LRC 45 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Scout Squad 20 bucks
----Telion 12 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 24 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 25 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks

485 dollars

That's actually 1800---so you have some room for upgrades (Where I don't know, PF on Tac squads is pretty pointless). But 50 is there if you want it.

I think the key point here is that the above Warmachine army + Captain Haley = completely different army, where as that 40k army + Sicarius - Vulkan = almost exactly same army.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I have no idea about the terrain issue. Right now in 40k shooting through almost all terrain is the same as shooting at almost anything in the game (4+ cover). Between vehicles, wrecks, trees, brush, other infantry---it's all a 4+ save right now. WM has two differentiating types of cover, very clear LOS rules and encourages you to slam models off hills, into other models, buildings, water, etc.

I'm relatively new to WM---but I feel it's much more interactive with terrain than 5th Ed. 40k.

It absolutely is. In games against another player, who is actually very good, but I'd say he's still more of a WH/40k player than WM/H, he constantly asks 'well, what are we counting this as'? My response is always 'what do you mean? It is what it is.'

That fence is actually a fence. That stone wall is a stone wall. The wooden hut is actually a wooden hut, and god help you if you're standing inside a 3-storey brick building when mortars knock it down.

I still find the cost of both games about the same.

I can make my 1850 Tourney army for the same cost it would take me to build a Tourney Warmachine army.


most warmahorde tourneys ive seen, require 2 lists.. which means im building 2 armies as the warcasters i like use different units to compliment them.

I have a 50 pt tourney list consisting primarily of Irusk, Behemoth, and Winter Guard. I can swap Irusk for Old Witch for roughly $20, and now I have 2 distinct, competitive, and good-at-different-things Steam Roller lists. The guy who won the UK Masters with Khador played largely the same lists in a 3-list format, but swapped out the warcasters for 3 distinct, eligible lists.

You don't have to do that, but it's an option.

I personally find I get far, far more playability for my dollar in WM/H versus 40k. Want a different army in WM/H? Buy another warcaster and another unit/jack or two. Want a different army in 40k? Buy 3 Vendettas and a dozen Chimeras.

For some people sure.

Right now i sadly have legion which i dont like.

Elylith takes 75% different units then it does for my pthagrosh list.

So ive almost bought 2 armies for it.

If i want a new army ? not everyone is gonna stay with 1 faction.

Which is completetly starting a new army.


one day, when i sell my legion, i might invest that back into the army i wish i had gone with.

Then again, im lazy and selling an army can be alot of effort.

If i want a new army ? not everyone is gonna stay with 1 faction.

See, that's an entirely different problem from wanting 2 different lists for Steamroller. People starting more than 1 army isn't limited to just Warmachine.

Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

And not to mention Price per model is higher then most 40k models that ive seen.

(except for maybe aussieland)

Now with this, i plan on having a finished Warmahordes army. and im working on renegade IG at the same time.

Both are fun, but neither is cheap.

Price per model isn't really a big deal when you only need 4 models to get a playable (IE, 15 point) army going.

Spyder68 wrote:Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

And not to mention Price per model is higher then most 40k models that ive seen.

(except for maybe aussieland)

Now with this, i plan on having a finished Warmahordes army. and im working on renegade IG at the same time.

Both are fun, but neither is cheap.

Price per model is comparable, cheaper when you factor in the largely mandatory dedicated transports.

Model count is lower, even with 2 list formats. When I played Legion, eLylith ran 2 Ravagores and eThagrosh ran 14 shredders, that's still much cheaper than the 9 chimeras I needed for my IG list.

Lower model count to play + Comparable price per model simply comes out to 'cheaper' in general. If you want to play more than one list or jump armies or play radically different list types/collect an entire faction, that is very different than playing a single 40k list.

Spyder68 wrote:Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

Warning: Game is addictive enough that you'll buy a second army?

Prices on miniatures are comparable and GW often offer cheaper prices for similar minis.
That said, as a game it is much easier to play Hordes or Warmachine on a tight budget than 40K. 40K budget armies are generally built using Marines or other elites and are generally mono-purpose. You can build a cheap-ish army for WM/H for ANY faction, and change it up relatively easily with a warcaster AS LONG AS YOU PLAN PURCHASES CAREFULLY.
With scattershot or completist purchasing, it will easily cost you as much as or more than GW games, but it is easier to build whatever faction you like on a budget than with GW.

Laughing Man wrote:How big of games are you playing that you're spending $400 on an army? My 50 pt list ran about $200, and I'm fielding an infantry heavy eSorscha list with Beast-09. O.o

Vlad: $11
Harkevich: $16
Metal Sorsha: $8
$35

Khador Starter: $50
Khador Starter: $50
Beast 9: $55
Devastator: $40
Spriggan: $38
$233

Wardog: $10
Kovnik: $20
$30

Widowmakers: $ 20
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
$120

TOTAL: $418

Don't even have any infantry yet really, and want a second each of Sprigan and Devastator, also need a Black Ivan and Drago still as well, plus a Demolition core. It'll be $600 by the time I am done, about comparable with a 40k army. (Plus rules, dice, counters, markers, card sleeves and templates which I am not counting)

Laughing Man wrote:Most of your other points are quite valid, of course, if subjective.

Thanks, and yes, I know. Surely I am not the authority, I tried to write from a warhammer perspective, in the spirit of what I thought the op asked for: Im a warhammer guy getting into WMH what do you think. As I had done that. Obviously YMMV.

Laughing Man wrote:If you're looking for tanks in a steampunk game, walk back the way you came.

Maybe not...


into:

I plan to shamelessly steal this idea!
Credit here:
http://www.herebegeeks.com/games/khador-gun-tank-wip-how-to-convert-your-khador-gun-carriage-part-2/

Just to give an example, and not saying this is an uber list, but the following units would work well with:
PMadrak, EMadrak, Grissel, Kegslayer
Troll Axer 6
2x Impalers 10
Mauler 9
Max Trollkin Champions 10

Now, you can definitely make a better list (2 impalers is probably overkill) but that list is functional and will play fairly decently under all 4 casters. The battlebox+heavy+unit formula is a pretty decent way of contructing a skeleton list, and you'll manage it for around $100.

Da Boss wrote:You can build a cheap-ish army for WM/H for ANY faction.

This is another good point that I think makes WM/H easier to enter into than GW games. No matter what the faction, they all have pretty comparable competitive entry costs at right around $200-$300 for a medium-sized army list. Thus there's no hidden 'tax' on choosing one faction over another.

Cheap entry into 40k is usually predicated on playing Marines. Cost of entry by faction (competitively) is generally all over the place. When I built my 2k mech IG, I spent something like $900 on 15 AV12 vehicles and all the guys and special weapons to go into them.

Laughing Man wrote:How big of games are you playing that you're spending $400 on an army? My 50 pt list ran about $200, and I'm fielding an infantry heavy eSorscha list with Beast-09. O.o

Vlad: $11
Harkevich: $16
Metal Sorsha: $8
$35

Khador Starter: $50
Khador Starter: $50
Beast 9: $55
Devastator: $40
Spriggan: $38
$233

Wardog: $10
Kovnik: $20
$30

Widowmakers: $ 20
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
$120

TOTAL: $418

Don't even have any infantry yet really, and want a second each of Sprigan and Devastator, also need a Black Ivan and Drago still as well, plus a Demolition core. It'll be $600 by the time I am done, about comparable with a 40k army. (Plus rules, dice, counters, markers, card sleeves and templates which I am not counting)

Laughing Man wrote:Most of your other points are quite valid, of course, if subjective.

Thanks, and yes, I know. Surely I am not the authority, I tried to write from a warhammer perspective, in the spirit of what I thought the op asked for: Im a warhammer guy getting into WMH what do you think. As I had done that. Obviously YMMV.

Laughing Man wrote:If you're looking for tanks in a steampunk game, walk back the way you came.

Maybe not...


into:

I plan to shamelessly steal this idea!
Credit here:
http://www.herebegeeks.com/games/khador-gun-tank-wip-how-to-convert-your-khador-gun-carriage-part-2/
EDIT: If I pull the trigger on this conversion it will be nearly $200 alone I think, with a GW Battlewagon and the Khador Carriage...

Augustus wrote:
Vlad: $11
Harkevich: $16
Metal Sorsha: $8
$35

Khador Starter: $50
Khador Starter: $50
Beast 9: $55
Devastator: $40
Spriggan: $38
$233

Wardog: $10
Kovnik: $20
$30

Widowmakers: $ 20
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
$120

TOTAL: $418

Don't even have any infantry yet really, and want a second each of Sprigan and Devastator, also need a Black Ivan and Drago still as well, plus a Demolition core. It'll be $600 by the time I am done, about comparable with a 40k army. (Plus rules, dice, counters, markers, card sleeves and templates which I am not counting)

This is 85 points worth of models, excluding warcaster warjack points, which would be analogous to more than 3,000 pts of 40k if we say that 50 pts is the 'normal' game size in WM/H.

So you have spent roughly double what you would normally need to build a 35 pt list (the $200-ish level normally quoted for entry), and gotten roughly double the amount of models.

Now, you can definitely make a better list (2 impalers is probably overkill) but that list is functional and will play fairly decently under all 4 casters.

It's also a rather odd point value. 29/30 point games aren't played too often.

*Snip List*

Ah, a 75 point list (well, assuming you buy plastic Shocktrooper units for maximum win). That explains the discrepancy. Also, that gun tank is awesome and I think I just might steal it for my second carriage.

Woah, did I screw up my points by 5? *blinks*
I blame...well. Myself! Wonder how I managed that one

sourclams wrote:This is 85 points worth of models, excluding warcaster warjack points, which would be analogous to more than 3,000 pts of 40k if we say that 50 pts is the 'normal' game size in WM/H.

A minimum 35 point force is not a full army. One needs some options. Warmachine players talk about the incredible variety of the game but look how much it costs, just to have a few options in standard games was $400 dollars and all I have fits into 2 x 2.5 inch trays.

I have 7 jacks, 3 characters and 12 infantry models... That was $400 dollars?

This stuff is not any cheaper.

But hey if you make a single minimum size army you can do it for 200, yea ok and you can play 40k with armies made from 2 battle for mcragg boxes too... It's comparable. If anything the GW plastic stuff gets you higher model counts, at least the Mcragg boxes would yield 2 armies?

@Augustus: Well... if you want to take it to its logical conclusion, it IS.

I have a reinforced battle company of space marines. This includes 30 veterans from the first company, including dreadnoughts, sternguard and terminators, enough transports to mount them all and assorted vindicators, whirlwinds and predator as support. I have three of the special "army modifying characters". Lacking bikes, I have not bothered with Khan. This probably tops out around 5000 points.

At the end of the day, whatever marine army you choose pretty much breaks down into - Infantry brick (foot/jump/terminator), Hybrid brick w/ mechanized support or fully mechanized. Sure you can change weapons and loadouts to effect MINOR changes to gameplay, but at the end of the day, 40k is structured so that units do not expand outside their roles. You can kit a tac squad to threaten tanks, but that's all it does. It will never be a dedicated tank hunting squad. Even throwing in Vulkan, who modifies the accuracy of their tank hunting abilities doesn't really make them anything more than an all-round squad with enhanced tank threatening ability.

For Khador, I have 12 heavy jacks and enough infantry and solos to reach the 250 point mark and 8 warcasters. Each warcaster ALONE offers the same levels of gameplay variability that my 5000 points of space marines offers, by mixing and matching of models. However, the warcaster system is such that it vastly changes gameplay.

How?

Vulkan buffs Thunderhammers and Meltas only.
Warmachine buffs can usually be targetted at entire classes of models (warriors/units/warjacks) and bestowed or upkept as needed. Thus, changes in buffs/debuffs that each warcaster offers is huge.

Feats are game-changing, ranging from giving your entire army feel-no-pain for a turn, to extra attacks, to added damage dice on attacks!

While probably gamer overkill, my pool of Khador models alows for more diverse gameplay than my ENTIRE 17 year 40k collection... (YMMV, but I doubt it. )

-edit- went a bit overboard there, but when tallyed up, Khador cost significantly less than the Marines. Even though I went the AOBR to bulk up the squads, my Khador cost around just a bit more than just the Vehicles in my Marine army.

That's an incredible collection!

keezus wrote:Feats are game-changing... (YMMV, but I doubt it. )

Indeed!

MMDNV

Ha ha!

@Agustus: For WM, I'd highly suggest buying different units at the start rather than double up on items right away. Also, keep in mind that outside of rare circumstances, your warcaster will NOT want to run more than 2 warjacks at a time.

Sure, thanks! Though I have been playing devils advocate Warhammer mean guy for this thread I actually got in cheap from Adpeticon, I got 2x Khador starters, one in my swag bag and a second from PP for fixing their display base then!

Break it again. I want free swag too!

Augustus wrote:Sure, thanks! Though I have been playing devils advocate Warhammer mean guy for this thread I actually got in cheap from Adpeticon, I got 2x Khador starters, one in my swag bag and a second from PP for fixing their display base then!

One of us! One of us! One of us!

I'll give Warhammer 40k credit when it's due... it is a good game with lots of tactical flexibility...













IN THIRD EDITION.

Sadly, in the 5th edition, the Grim Darkness of the far future doesn't contain:

Splitting shooting and assault targets
* Rapidfire now is an improvement over 3rd Ed
Assaulting after disembarking from a moving transport
* Exit points now is an improvement and was implemented at the end of 3rd Ed as part of the campaign to stop the first turn 12+1" BA Rhino movement, 2" deploy out the front, *charge*, despite the fact that you could reliably defeat this by not deploying at deployment zone edge!!! (I omitted the obligatory shoot before charge, as canny generals would remove casualties out of charge range, and the BA player would usually fubar his own charge by shooting!)
Standardized movement over random fleet/run
* Being able to run is great, but seriously - random distance?
Meaningful Ld stat. (It's there as a decoration! Pinning is a joke! Bring back the hillarious man-alone checks!)

They removed stuff that is considered "tricky" but required finesse to pull off like:

Consolidating into another combat
Consolidating back into your vehicle
Blocking the access points on a vehicle to kill its occupants
Crossfire
The new rules severely limits multi target charges.

Laughing Man wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

Warning: Game is addictive enough that you'll buy a second army?

I don't think i ever said i didnt like the game

I for one will play both, 40k and PP.

What i did say is i started under the assumption that its cheaper models etc etc.

And that i dont like the army that i chose.



Planning out new armies.. they don't look that much cheaper is all.

Spyder68 wrote:Planning out new armies.. they don't look that much cheaper is all.

Very interested in what your numbers are. Every time I think about a new 40k army, the price makes my brain explode. Last one I priced was two years ago for an Armored Company that topped out around near $1000MSRP for 2000 points. Needless to say, I didn't buy it.

This thread is starting to get a little fixated on the cost thing. Maybe we can shift it back to gameplay, talk about the PP tournament and league options, key purchases (should you buy your factions card deck for instance).

Last blood angel army i built ran me around $600 for 1850 tourney
(55 Models)
last warmachine army i priced was around $450-500 (2 35 pt lists of same faction to be tourney viable if i chose) (most likely going to buy it also)
(32models)



Old lancer - $17 - New Lancer $19 $2 increase
Old Defender $28 New defender $35 $7 increase
Old Gun mages $28 New gun Mages $35 $7 Increase
Classic Jugger $28 New Jugger $35 $7 increase


i didnt see complaints that Warmachine prices are going up yet tons of rage about GW.

I guess not alot have been playing warmahordes to see the changes..

Spyder68 wrote:

Old lancer - $17 - New Lancer $19 $2 increase
Old Defender $28 New defender $35 $7 increase
Old Gun mages $28 New gun Mages $35 $7 Increase
Classic Jugger $28 New Jugger $35 $7 increase


i didnt see complaints that Warmachine prices are going up yet tons of rage about GW.

I guess not alot have been playing warmahordes to see the changes..

Despite it's growth Warmachine does have a significantly smaller fan base, and therefore fewer people yelling about them on the internet.

Those price increases are all for either new plastic models or re-sculpted metals. It's still a price increase certainly, but it's disguised better.

Also, I think some of the newer unit boxes are cheaper than it would have been to buy the old boxes + blisters. Thralls for instance. I haven't checked that myself though.

plastictrees wrote:This thread is starting to get a little fixated on the cost thing. Maybe we can shift it back to gameplay, talk about the PP tournament and league options,

My first event was 6 games in a starter box nub tournie! I liked it but it was information overload with all the combos. 1/3rd of the participants played the Khador starter though, and I played my own stuff in 2 rounds, which actually made it good to learn! Locally we have a really dedicated fan base, and a great guy who runs events all the time, it's one of the great things abou tit IMO, it's easier to find players than for 40k. Its also easier to transport to events. I haven't played in a sanctioned event yet but I will be in texas in a couple days for the mangled metal tourney at BOls uh... Wargamescon! That should be fun, if similar!

Short version, play in a starter set tourney if you can its fun!

plastictrees wrote:...key purchases (should you buy your factions card deck for instance).

I bought my faction deck immediately so I would have some idea what the units do, and multiple cards in case I lost some. I liked it reading the cards, with the concise rules on them was awesome, I found it very handy for play and well done. It didn't a;lways settle some sequence arguments, but it was so handy I couldn't help but wish they had something similar for in game Warhammer references!

A note: the faction deck is just for things that came out before, you get a card thats new in all the new stuff so... you don't really need to buy a faction deck, now I'm sure the real officianados can correct this but I also believe the faction decks are not 100% inclusive, that some new units do NOT have cards in there, so you are not getting everything. For example the War Engines, like the tank I showed before aren't in there. FYI, if starting new, I might not buy the faction deck again, but i like the reference binder I made!

I feel you on the adjustment pain Augustus. The first few games for me were actually not enjoyable due to looking everything up each turn---then finding out a combo "If I had known about" I certainly wouldn't have walked into.

As I'm getting past those unknowns, I'm starting the enjoy the game more and more. In my example, I blame myself in regards to my comfort zone (I'm very, very rarely surprised to that degree in 40k unless it's a new book/army).

@Plastictrees: The new 10 man squad boxes have significant sticker shock. It was over $80cdn for a box of bane thralls.

Getting back to gameplay though - I'm more willing to pay PP's prices due to the amount of use you can potentially get out of your purchases. Here's an example:

Juggernaut Warjack
+pSorscha = +2" to charge distance, pathfinder, free charge, autohits against targets she knocks down/makes stationary with spells/feat
+eSorscha = same as above, except off her feat, damage dealt is DOUBLED. Can put her warjack bond on it for a 2" auto-stationary zone for anyone ending activation inside it.
+Zerkova = mostly nothing offense wise, but Watcher can potentially give you a lot of free moves with the warjack as long as you don't attack as part of the spell's effect. As a support caster, she often has the resources to max out its focus allocation.
+pButcher = Potential +D6 damage off his feat, free charge and boosted attack rolls from Full Throttle
+pVlad = Potential 13" charge stacking boundless charge and his feat. Signs and Portents provides a small boost to hit and damage.
+pIrusk = Boosts SPD/DEF/MAT and no knockdown!
+Strakov = same as pIrusk, except his feat turns the warjack into a killer bullet. Can also give the Jugger stealth if you wish.
+Karchev = free charges off Karchev's feat, free boosts off his Unearthly Rage spell. Superior charge range (up to +12" threat) using tow and run. No knockdown if Sidearms is cast and in B2B with Karchev.

This is of course with warcasters alone. There is even more crazy stuff that this unit can do combined with other models. The fact that you are not limited to attacking enemy models means you can shoot your own big guy with a blast to peel the infantry off of him. You can fix this bad boy with mechanics midgame.

Sure, a lot of times you may want to go to his big brother Beast 09 due to Beast's extra abilities, and one might think that this makes poor old Juggernaut obsolete - but there are times when his lowish points is more appropriate, especially considering that Beast doesn't hit any harder, nor is he more survivable than his cheaper brother.

This also extends to the infantry. IIRC, Winterguard have a P+S of 8 adding 2D6 vs enemy armor. Nothing to write home about, averaging 19 damage on the charge (+1D6 damage). Using pButcher for example, Orsus can give them +2 damage by casting Fury and then his feat can give them a further damage die. Their character solo can further increase this by +3, making them P+S13 and 4D6 damage on the charge. These interactions can turn a crappy unit into an elite one, and turn an elite unit into OMGWTFBBQ. (Great Bears are weaponmasters, (+1D6 damage) and can make 2 swings, P+S12. They can receive the same +2 damage and +1D6 damage, making them into P+S14+5D6 on the charge and a second swing at P+S14+4D6.)

In 40k, if I buy a Leman Russ tank - I have the choice of secondary weapon loadout on it. Its never going to do something other than try and shoot at an enemy, or maybe drive around tankshocking/ramming stuff - it has no interactions with other models on its own side, other than forcibly blocking LOS. Even a more flexible choice - such as a Tactical Squad is limited to kitting out for Anti-troop/Anti-tank/Mixed weaponry. Its only interaction is with a commander model which modifies its combat-tactics and/or a transport which makes it faster at a fixed rate.

@Plastictrees: The new 10 man squad boxes have significant sticker shock. It was over $80cdn for a box of bane thralls.

To be fair, since you don't need the blisters, the new boxes are actually slightly cheaper than the old ones. Bane Thralls, for example, are $5 less than the old models. As for the plastic heavies, they're slightly more expensive, but the extra bits make magentization really, really easy. Still, YMMV.

As far as cards go, they're pretty optional. Their main purpose is to replace any old MkI cards you may have laying around, and they won't come with the cards of any models that were released after MkII. The faction books and expansions typically make better reference material, although they aren't nearly as portable.

Tarot wrote:To be fair, since you don't need the blisters, the new boxes are actually slightly cheaper than the old ones. Bane Thralls, for example, are $5 less than the old models. As for the plastic heavies, they're slightly more expensive, but the extra bits make magentization really, really easy. Still, YMMV.

While I understand why they went to the 10 man boxes - I actually perfer the 6 man boxes - that way when you buy 2, you have your full squad + 2 min squads. The higher priced 10 man boxes passed my impulse buy threshold.

keezus wrote:
This also extends to the infantry. IIRC, Winterguard have a P+S of 8 adding 2D6 vs enemy armor. Nothing to write home about, averaging 19 damage on the charge (+1D6 damage). Using pButcher for example, Orsus can give them +2 damage by casting Fury and then his feat can give them a further damage die. Their character solo can further increase this by +3, making them P+S13 and 4D6 damage on the charge. These interactions can turn a crappy unit into an elite one, and turn an elite unit into OMGWTFBBQ. (Great Bears are weaponmasters, (+1D6 damage) and can make 2 swings, P+S12. They can receive the same +2 damage and +1D6 damage, making them into P+S14+5D6 on the charge and a second swing at P+S14+4D6.)

The unit/model interactions are great. Winterguard are probably the most extreme example though. Expecting that level of _effective_ interaction from other units and their attachements/solos can leave you disappointed...I'm looking at you Trenchers.

I probably wouldn't recommend the cards to a cash strapped new player unless they were planning to do a lot of proxying. And yes, the cards in the faction decks stop just short of a couple of the newest additions to the faction book, and obviously none of the cards from Wrath. The Cygnar deck doesn't have the storm tower for instance IIRC.

Don't get me started on trenchers.

The biggest issue with Trenchers is that they have feeble stats and pay a premium for situational abilities - 6/10 is way too much for a unit with such terrible stats. Dig in is great, except it is a *action, which means they can't attack or lay smoke and does nothing for the trenchers once they are engaged. Smoke is great, except it too is a *action meaning they can't dig in that turn. The officer somewhat mitigates this problem, but this just makes the overpriced unit more expensive. CRA is great, except the unit is already overpriced and you are now forced to halve your shots to get in hits.

On top of this, you are paying the infamous Cygnar SNIPE tax on them, which factors in the potential benefits of snipe (and to a lesser extent dead-eye) into their cost.

Advance deploy is good and worth paying for. IMHO, for a unit with such puny combat output, IMHO, trenchers should be a 5/8 unit at most - hell Ironfangs and BANE THRALLS are a 5/8 for crying out loud.

Finn's abilities are very good - most of Cygnar's storm knights would kill to get the desparate pace buff, but it is sadly wasted on a unit with aenimic damage output and mediocre UA/WA.

Sword Knights on the other hand...! (Not as great as in MK1, but pretty good for their cost - especially now that Wrath gives them Duke Runewood!)

plastictrees wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:

Old lancer - $17 - New Lancer $19 $2 increase
Old Defender $28 New defender $35 $7 increase
Old Gun mages $28 New gun Mages $35 $7 Increase
Classic Jugger $28 New Jugger $35 $7 increase


i didnt see complaints that Warmachine prices are going up yet tons of rage about GW.

I guess not alot have been playing warmahordes to see the changes..

Despite it's growth Warmachine does have a significantly smaller fan base, and therefore fewer people yelling about them on the internet.

Those price increases are all for either new plastic models or re-sculpted metals. It's still a price increase certainly, but it's disguised better.

Also, I think some of the newer unit boxes are cheaper than it would have been to buy the old boxes + blisters. Thralls for instance. I haven't checked that myself though.

Sadly its the exact same gripes as with the new 40k stuff

Plastic should be cheaper.. etc etc.

just saw a box of Bane Thralls is $80

Spyder68 wrote:Sadly its the exact same gripes as with the new 40k stuff

Plastic should be cheaper.. etc etc.

just saw a box of Bane Thralls is $80

I just noticed that GW seems to be going the other way with their transition to FINECAST(tm)... Instead of putting a full squad in the box and eliminating the blisters... they just eliminate the blisters so you have to buy two boxes to make a full squad.

@ The bane thralls... I totally boggled when I saw that too, but in hindsight, it's of comparable pricing to making a full unit of Sternguards. *ouch* A full squad of Assault Marines comes out to $79 here in Canada. And those are plastic!

I think one of the reasons Bane Thralls are expensive is because they are really popular (and thus easy money for retailers and PP). The popularity of Bane Thralls has become a meme on the Cryx PP forum (“your list needs more Bane Thralls”).

That being said $80 is pretty expensive. What’s really odd though is that I placed an order with Wayland during May for the 2011 resculpt Bane Thralls and they were priced at £37.49 ($47 AUD). That’s almost half the price of what they’re priced now.

You sure you got the resculpts? That's the price of the original six man box, IIRC...

Spyder68 wrote:
i didnt see complaints that Warmachine prices are going up yet tons of rage about GW.

Well, there are plenty of complaints about PP prizes (especially stuff like the Cav like RoS Destors), but they´re not as vocal as the people complaining about GW for one simple reason: With PP the prizes of (some) minis is the only reason to complain for many people for now. GW gave us many other reasons to be pissed which PP did not, so due to residual anger even the complaints about similar problems will be more vocal.

Laughing Man wrote:You sure you got the resculpts? That's the price of the original six man box, IIRC...

Yup as hard as it is to believe, yes I did get the resculpt. The text below was copied directly from my invoice.

Code Description Options Quantity Price Value
PIP34091 Cryx Bane Thralls - 2011 Resculpt 1 £31.49 £31.49

Spyder68 wrote:Old lancer - $17 - New Lancer $19 $2 increase
Old Defender $28 New defender $35 $7 increase
Old Gun mages $28 New gun Mages $35 $7 Increase
Classic Jugger $28 New Jugger $35 $7 increase

Well, the Defender and Juggernaut purchases will both now be the pastic Heavy Warjack kits - meaning that with a few magnets (and some care) you can have a warjack you can use as three different variants (Irnclad/Defender/Cyclone or Jugger/Destroyer/Decimator - there might even be a fourth one for Khador, but I'm not sure as I don't play them).

Augustus wrote:A note: the faction deck is just for things that came out before, you get a card thats new in all the new stuff so... you don't really need to buy a faction deck, now I'm sure the real officianados can correct this but I also believe the faction decks are not 100% inclusive, that some new units do NOT have cards in there, so you are not getting everything. For example the War Engines, like the tank I showed before aren't in there. FYI, if starting new, I might not buy the faction deck again, but i like the reference binder I made!

The faction deck will include anything that came out in Mk1. Anything released for Mk 2 (from the new warjacks in Prime Mk2 onwards) will have the new card included with them, so didn't need including in the deck. In theory, any old boxes/blisters you buy should have been upgraded to Mk2 cards by this point.

Well, the Defender and Juggernaut purchases will both now be the pastic Heavy Warjack kits - meaning that with a few magnets (and some care) you can have a warjack you can use as three different variants (Irnclad/Defender/Cyclone or Jugger/Destroyer/Decimator - there might even be a fourth one for Khador, but I'm not sure as I don't play them).

Yep, the Khador kit has 33% more arms than everyone else. Juggernaut, Demolisher, Destroyer, and Marauder.

Either way..

im restarting a warmachine army while i slowly work on my renegade guard.. (not going to rush FW models)


Khador.. or Cygnar.. hard to choose.