coolyo294 wrote:You say you aren't going to be spewing the "garbage" that was on the vs. thread, yet you go ahead and make a personal insult against Purple that has nothing to do with the discussion topic at hand? Color me confused.

purplefood wrote:Me?
No i was actually curious at what math you have behind this.
I was wondering how anyone manages to figure anything out considering the relative impossibility of most sci-fi universes and the numbers they tend to use.

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:So hang on, purplefood is the one making an ass out of himself?

It's very difficult to get such measurements for 40k, becuase they don't really go into much detail. Nowhere does it state what sort of energy goes into upholding a gellar field, nor does it say what the energy output of their weapons are.

Sure, you can make comparitive examples. For example, Star Wars shields aren't capable of blocking asteroids (or quickly weaken the shields until one gets through), as seen in ESB. On the other hand, BFG ships have shields that essentially brush aside asteroids (unless the asteroid is nearing the size of the ship itself) per the BFG rules, but the moment that they are without shields and they come into contact with an asteroid there is serious damage (capable of destroying outright smaller escort ships).

The key to doing so in a relaxed and civil manner is, of course, to not be a dick about it if anyone so much as disagrees with you.

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

purplefood wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

That's fairly sneaky... also a touch more logical than most people's ideas.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

How'd you know i wanted ice cream
To the freezer!
In all seriousness Canadian8th please for the love of all thats holy stop bickering and asking where are sources are because literally sometimes we have something called a lexcanum and codexes.
We don't have numbers because we can't find.
The only one of us that can do calculations is Ivan who no-longer debates because he is too good at it. (OR hes banned I don't know XD)

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:So hang on, purplefood is the one making an ass out of himself?

It's very difficult to get such measurements for 40k, becuase they don't really go into much detail. Nowhere does it state what sort of energy goes into upholding a gellar field, nor does it say what the energy output of their weapons are.

It can be tough, but isn't really that hard if you're willing to do a little work.

Sure, you can make comparitive examples. For example, Star Wars shields aren't capable of blocking asteroids (or quickly weaken the shields until one gets through), as seen in ESB. On the other hand, BFG ships have shields that essentially brush aside asteroids (unless the asteroid is nearing the size of the ship itself) per the BFG rules, but the moment that they are without shields and they come into contact with an asteroid there is serious damage (capable of destroying outright smaller escort ships).

Ignore the fact that they were in that highly active field, for days at least,

and that they likely had shields down for better long range communications and scanning.

Not to mention that the ship survived the incident.

If an asteroid at that size and speed could really hurt them then they wouldn't need to arm transports with 200 Gigaton/second main guns.

Nor would we ships ships capable to melting 1,000km asteroids failing to kill ships in the same weight class.

The key to doing so in a relaxed and civil manner is, of course, to not be a dick about it if anyone so much as disagrees with you.

I'll cut you slack when you can cite sources and produce numbers.

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Asherian Command wrote:Why aren't you getting from this that Gamesworkshop does not provide us with these calculations they only say they did this much damage and thats it.

purplefood wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Ah...
Much obliged.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

Given that her number wasn't actually canon given the fact that officially the word from the owners of the Star Wars property is that a book can only be canon if it doesn't contradict a higher source. Thus, because of what we see in the movies and the fact that other sources mention thousands of ships, a number that wouldn't be needed for so few clones, it gets discounted. Also, her work has been discounted by several other sources within the company and the author has actually made threats against fans online and has been cited as actually aiming to troll the fanbase. We can only be glad she's working on Gears of War stuff now.

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Ah...
Much obliged.

No problem, sorry for the mix up at the start. I'm glad I never bother clicking the little yellow button now.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Why aren't you getting from this that Gamesworkshop does not provide us with these calculations they only say they did this much damage and thats it.

So, until the release of the most recent ICS nobody had given Star Wars any hard numbers either. Also, GW gives you descriptions of damage that you can scale from with some google-fu and very basic math. I just linked to an entire thread of calculations for 40k.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

Given that her number wasn't actually canon given the fact that officially the word from the owners of the Star Wars property is that a book can only be canon if it doesn't contradict a higher source. Thus, because of what we see in the movies and the fact that other sources mention thousands of ships, a number that wouldn't be needed for so few clones, it gets discounted. Also, her work has been discounted by several other sources within the company and the author has actually made threats against fans online and has been cited as actually aiming to troll the fanbase. We can only be glad she's working on Gears of War stuff now.

So the movies are a reliable basis for looking at standard range in SW naval engagements now? Cool.

But also by that standard, quintillions of droids can be easily discounted, since they couldn't even be transported by hundreds of thousands of ships.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

Given that her number wasn't actually canon given the fact that officially the word from the owners of the Star Wars property is that a book can only be canon if it doesn't contradict a higher source. Thus, because of what we see in the movies and the fact that other sources mention thousands of ships, a number that wouldn't be needed for so few clones, it gets discounted. Also, her work has been discounted by several other sources within the company and the author has actually made threats against fans online and has been cited as actually aiming to troll the fanbase. We can only be glad she's working on Gears of War stuff now.

So the movies are a reliable basis for looking at standard range in SW naval engagements now? Cool.

But also by that standard, quintillions of droids can be easily discounted, since they couldn't even be transported by hundreds of thousands of ships.

The ranges we see in the movies are for a fight where the rebels closed in to limit the DSII's fire arcs. The other is under a planetary shield forcing them close.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And the Clone Wars engagements?

BTW, completely ignoring other points in a person's argument is generally considered poor form.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:How do you assign factual numbers and equations to things that don't actually exist and for technology that we have no way of truly understanding how any of it works let alone what it is all capable of

Commisar Wolfie wrote:But how do you even know what it is actually capable of doing? Since half of the technology and items used in both "make-believe" worlds in now way exist in our world.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:ok still not really answering the question. Lets you wacth me break a rock with a sledge hammer. You have no way of knowing if i used minimal force to break it or if i used all my force to break it. All you know is I broke a rock with a sledge hammer. (I know it not a perfect example) So in this same vein how do you know what power level weapons are fireing at and if they are at maximum or minimal or somewhere in between and what said weapons are capable of.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Ok for that one scene what about others? What about 40K where things change depending on the edition and author? Plus very very very few motion picture examples like star wars. Which seems to be the only thing you know about and so in no way could you give any unbiased opinion.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Ok but in your opening post you were offering to run the numbers. But you just stated that your knowledge lies with SW and not in 40K. Infact you want somebody else to do all the number crunching for 40K. Very well I will do my "math" and you can do yours.
bolt pistol power = infinty
bolter power = inifinty
lascannon power = infinity

should I keep going?

Commisar Wolfie wrote:All im saying is fake math is fake math regardless of how fancy you make it. and that is exactly what my basis was. Your makeing up numbers for things that do not exist except in the imagination of the creators and fans and so therefore can not be assigned any value in the real world because it is not real. So I used my imaginary numbers and imaginary facts to come up with my imiginary facts to dispute your imiginary numbers.

A bolter that can blow a regular person in half so long as that person isn't wearing armor isn't the next page going to blow up a tank through the frontal armor

Psienesis wrote:

A bolter that can blow a regular person in half so long as that person isn't wearing armor isn't the next page going to blow up a tank through the frontal armor

This is 40k, it just *might* do that.

Also, all of 40k's visual media... as defined by video games and (a) movie... are decidedly "non-canon" in their depiction of units, fighting style, weapon power and so forth. Those make for interesting visual spectacle, but in no way, shape or form conform to anything printed regarding the actual game-mechanics or effects of weapons.

If you took DoW: Soulstorm as an example, you would believe that the IG fields lascannons with fully-automatic fire and a limitless ammunition supply, and that the IG would declare that the Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle were both groups of "extremists" that should be purged from their world.

Yeah... it doesn't work that way in 40K.

About the asteroid... what's it made out of? Porous rock? Calcite? Titanium? Admantium? Unobtanium?

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:And the Clone Wars engagements?

BTW, completely ignoring other points in a person's argument is generally considered poor form.

Completely ignored, how did I ignore anything, you asked about the movies and I answered by pointing out that we see all of two major space battles in the movies.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:So hang on, purplefood is the one making an ass out of himself?

It's very difficult to get such measurements for 40k, becuase they don't really go into much detail. Nowhere does it state what sort of energy goes into upholding a gellar field, nor does it say what the energy output of their weapons are.

It can be tough, but isn't really that hard if you're willing to do a little work.

Enlighten me. Onus is on you here, after all.

Sure, you can make comparitive examples. For example, Star Wars shields aren't capable of blocking asteroids (or quickly weaken the shields until one gets through), as seen in ESB. On the other hand, BFG ships have shields that essentially brush aside asteroids (unless the asteroid is nearing the size of the ship itself) per the BFG rules, but the moment that they are without shields and they come into contact with an asteroid there is serious damage (capable of destroying outright smaller escort ships).

Ignore the fact that they were in that highly active field, for days at least,

So you can cite a source where it says that the asteroid field was unusually active, and that the ships had been out there for days. Becuase right now it looks like these excuses are your own personal speculations.

and that they likely had shields down for better long range communications and scanning.

They had shields down? Shields up affect communications and scanning? Oh right, this is more of that speculation that you seem to hate so much.

Not to mention that the ship survived the incident.

Yeah, as would most ships in the Imperial Navy with shields down (unless you rolled like an absolute champion on the Critical Damage table).

If an asteroid at that size and speed could really hurt them then they wouldn't need to arm transports with 200 Gigaton/second main guns.

And how does this measure up to Imperial Navy ship's shields just brushing aside asteroids?

Nor would we ships ships capable to melting 1,000km asteroids failing to kill ships in the same weight class.

"Now would we see ship capable..."?

I'm not saying an ISD couldn't go toe-to-toe with a Cobra Class Escort (in fact it would probably come off better as energy weapons have greater accuracy than ordnance). All I've done is show how you can compare the difference in shield strength.

The key to doing so in a relaxed and civil manner is, of course, to not be a dick about it if anyone so much as disagrees with you.

I'll cut you slack when you can cite sources and produce numbers.

Firstly, what more can I do? What I've told you is simply from the BFG rules for moving through Asteroid fields. If you don't believe me, GW still has the BFG rules sheet on it's website I think, and you can check for yourself.
Secondly, that dick thing I was talking about? You're still failing at it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=1100007§ion=&aId=4300022

One at the start of Episode III under a shield which forces a close fight, and the other an ambush where they did something unusual by closing in to limit fire arcs.

As for the Cartoons, they aren't on the same level of canon as the movies and are actually even below the books. The events shown happened, but not always the exact same way.

Emperors Faithful wrote:You ignored this. And you also ignored my comment on the quintillions of droids.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Enlighten me. Onus is on you here, after all.

So you can cite a source where it says that the asteroid field was unusually active, and that the ships had been out there for days. Becuase right now it looks like these excuses are your own personal speculations.

wookiepedia wrote:The Hoth asteroid field, also known as the Anoat Asteroid Belt, was an extensive, wildly erratic asteroid belt occupying the farthest orbit of the Hoth system in the Outer Rim Territories. Forged as the resulting effect of a collision between two rocky planets eons prior to the Galactic Civil War, the belt was a favored sanctuary for smugglers and pirates alike hoping to elude legal authority. The field was rich in untapped mineral resources such as metal ore, a magnet for mining prospectors hoping to make a fortune. The chaotic nature of the asteroid field sent a constant bombardment of meteorites to the surface of Hoth, the system's sixth planet.

wookiepedia wrote:The Millennium Falcon spent several days hiding within the massive asteroid while Solo and his passengers worked to repair the ship's faulty hyperdrive.[1] Solo cleverly shut down the ship's primary systems in order to avoid detection by the probing Imperial ships the group could hear overhead trying to chase them out. It was while cooped up within the close confines of the Millennium Falcon for several days that the longstanding romantic tensions between Solo and Organa first began to blossom. The princess finally warmed to Solo's roguish charms as they shared one of their first kisses within the deep innards of the asteroid.

However, it was not the might of the Imperial Navy that eventually flushed the Millennium Falcon out of its hiding place. The group soon discovered that mynocks living inside of the cavern had attached themselves to the ship's power cables, leeching the ship of its energy. While clearing the ship of the parasites, Solo and Chewbacca unwittingly discovered the true nature of their hiding spot. Stray blaster bolts fired into the walls of the cave had strangely caused the grotto to shake violently. It was not a simple cave that Solo had hidden his ship in, but the nesting area of a giant exogorth. Solo was able to pilot his ship out of the closing jaws of the massive space slug with only seconds to spare, but at the expense of knowing they would once again be engaged by the Imperial fleet.[2] The existence of an enormous space slug within the asteroid field had been written off as spacer legend until Solo's run-in with the creature. However, some continued to disbelieve the story, based on Solo's reputation for exaggeration.

They had shields down? Shields up affect communications and scanning? Oh right, this is more of that speculation that you seem to hate so much.

Yeah, as would most ships in the Imperial Navy with shields down (unless you rolled like an absolute champion on the Critical Damage table).

wookiepedia wrote:The Avenger was the only ship attached to Death Squadron that managed to stay with the Falcon through the entirety of the asteroid field, earning the warship a reputation for persistence among the Imperial Navy. Needa had sent his Star Destroyer headfirst into the asteroids as Vader had commanded, sustaining substantial damage in the process. It was all his gunnery crews could do to try and keep up with the endless task of trying to shoot down the rocky debris in the Star Destroyer's path. So, when Solo suddenly and unexpectedly banked the Millennium Falcon on an attack course straight for the pursuing Avenger, Needa and his crew were ill-prepared and lost the Rebel ship for good.[1]

And how does this measure up to Imperial Navy ship's shields just brushing aside asteroids?

wookiepedia wrote:The Avenger was later reassigned to Death Squadron and served as the lead attack ship at Hoth. During the course of the battle, the Avenger was disabled. [3]

"Now would we see ship capable..."?

I'm not saying an ISD couldn't go toe-to-toe with a Cobra Class Escort (in fact it would probably come off better as energy weapons have greater accuracy than ordnance). All I've done is show how you can compare the difference in shield strength.

Firstly, what more can I do? What I've told you is simply from the BFG rules for moving through Asteroid fields. If you don't believe me, GW still has the BFG rules sheet on it's website I think, and you can check for yourself.

Okay, there's obviously some official high-end source that not only says that the Space Battles in the Clone Wars Cartoons and movies (I can't recall anywhere where it said that they were engaging underneath the planetary shields) are incorrect, but it replaces these incorrect sources with a definite example that SW naval engagements ussually occur hundreds thousands of kilometres apart. I'd still like to see it.

Raxmei wrote:Whoever started talking about Star Wars is threadjacking and defying moderator action by resuming a locked discussion. This isn't the 40k vs Star Wars thread.

Kilkrazy wrote:If people are to make any comparison you have to start with the assumption that basic rules of physics, chemistry and mathematics are the same in the SF universes to be examined and the modern day, except where needed to allow science fictiony things such as FTL travel.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, and what happens if the description conflicts with reality.

For example, it takes a certain amount of energy for the human body to maintain itself, move around and do work. There is no way around this because the energy contained in molecules is a factor of chemical laws.

Therefore the idea of a food pill is nonsense. Even if you found a way to compress a day's rations into a pill-sized table, it would still weight the same as a day's rations.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If people are to make any comparison you have to start with the assumption that basic rules of physics, chemistry and mathematics are the same in the SF universes to be examined and the modern day, except where needed to allow science fictiony things such as FTL travel.

Yup, you also need to treat what you see on screen or in text as a real account of what happened unless given reason to do otherwise.

Ruckdog wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If people are to make any comparison you have to start with the assumption that basic rules of physics, chemistry and mathematics are the same in the SF universes to be examined and the modern day, except where needed to allow science fictiony things such as FTL travel.

Yup, you also need to treat what you see on screen or in text as a real account of what happened unless given reason to do otherwise.

This will be an interesting exercise! I think the calculations will be chiefly interesting from the perspective of showing how crazy the tech shown in 40k is.

However, I should warn you not to get too disappointed if someone refuses to agree with an assertion despite mathematical "proof." The problem is, many assumptions have to be made with regards to missing details, and even relying on "official" sources such as what appears in movies, etc isn't necessarily a sure-fire method thanks to the dramatic license that is often taken in such scenes. I think the issue is compounded in 40k, with its rule of cool and all.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Can someone please just close this thread?

Canadian 5th wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Can someone please just close this thread?

Why, because you don't like it?

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Can someone please just close this thread?

Why, because you don't like it?

Hey, whats with the attitude dude? You're just verbally attacking everyone on this thread. Just chill kid. Chill.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, and what happens if the description conflicts with reality.

For example, it takes a certain amount of energy for the human body to maintain itself, move around and do work. There is no way around this because the energy contained in molecules is a factor of chemical laws.

Therefore the idea of a food pill is nonsense. Even if you found a way to compress a day's rations into a pill-sized table, it would still weight the same as a day's rations.

Not entirely true actually, we can, today, pack enough energy and vitamins into a pill and a shake to keep you alive and well. Not to mention that an MRE already gives you more vitamins and calories than a meal you would cook at home.

For other really out there stuff, like FTL travel, you just have to accept that it works as advertised and go from there. We don't need to understand exactly how a ship passes the speed of light, we just need to know how fast, for how long, and with what risks.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Can someone please just close this thread?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, and what happens if the description conflicts with reality.

For example, it takes a certain amount of energy for the human body to maintain itself, move around and do work. There is no way around this because the energy contained in molecules is a factor of chemical laws.

Therefore the idea of a food pill is nonsense. Even if you found a way to compress a day's rations into a pill-sized table, it would still weight the same as a day's rations.

Not entirely true actually, we can, today, pack enough energy and vitamins into a pill and a shake to keep you alive and well. Not to mention that an MRE already gives you more vitamins and calories than a meal you would cook at home.

For other really out there stuff, like FTL travel, you just have to accept that it works as advertised and go from there. We don't need to understand exactly how a ship passes the speed of light, we just need to know how fast, for how long, and with what risks.

A pill and a shake, not a pill. If the shake comes dehydrated you need water too. Vitamins in pills don't absorb as well as vitamins taken in food as some of them need cofactors to help the stomach absorb them.

MRE's don't provide a healthy diet, they are intended for short term use only. And they aren't pills, and they weigh about as much as real food.

I already accept the point about FTL so there's no argument there. I'm also prepared to accept arguments about wormholes and other such SF ideas. I'm not prepared to believe that in the year 40,000 it would take less energy to boil water than it does today.

Show me an example of weapons power varying by that many orders of magnitude in 40k?

Psienesis wrote:

Show me an example of weapons power varying by that many orders of magnitude in 40k?

A melta.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:You ignored this. And you also ignored my comment on the quintillions of droids.

I was talking to like 3 people, I missed it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Enlighten me. Onus is on you here, after all.

You can do some of your own work, it's not on me to do everything here.

So you can cite a source where it says that the asteroid field was unusually active, and that the ships had been out there for days. Becuase right now it looks like these excuses are your own personal speculations.

Most asteroid fields don't contain rocks bashing into each other nor with that level of density. From wikipedia on our own asteroid field:

The remaining bodies range down to the size of a dust particle. The asteroid material is so thinly distributed that multiple unmanned spacecraft have traversed it without incident. Nonetheless, collisions between large asteroids do occur, and these can form an asteroid family whose members have similar orbital characteristics and compositions.

The Hoth field was clearly dense enough that an unmanned probe that is unable to do much course correction would have been destroyed.

On the field's density and activity:

wookiepedia wrote:The Hoth asteroid field, also known as the Anoat Asteroid Belt, was an extensive, wildly erratic asteroid belt occupying the farthest orbit of the Hoth system in the Outer Rim Territories. Forged as the resulting effect of a collision between two rocky planets eons prior to the Galactic Civil War, the belt was a favored sanctuary for smugglers and pirates alike hoping to elude legal authority. The field was rich in untapped mineral resources such as metal ore, a magnet for mining prospectors hoping to make a fortune. The chaotic nature of the asteroid field sent a constant bombardment of meteorites to the surface of Hoth, the system's sixth planet.

On the time spent in the field:

wookiepedia wrote:The Millennium Falcon spent several days hiding within the massive asteroid while Solo and his passengers worked to repair the ship's faulty hyperdrive.[1] Solo cleverly shut down the ship's primary systems in order to avoid detection by the probing Imperial ships the group could hear overhead trying to chase them out. It was while cooped up within the close confines of the Millennium Falcon for several days that the longstanding romantic tensions between Solo and Organa first began to blossom. The princess finally warmed to Solo's roguish charms as they shared one of their first kisses within the deep innards of the asteroid.

However, it was not the might of the Imperial Navy that eventually flushed the Millennium Falcon out of its hiding place. The group soon discovered that mynocks living inside of the cavern had attached themselves to the ship's power cables, leeching the ship of its energy. While clearing the ship of the parasites, Solo and Chewbacca unwittingly discovered the true nature of their hiding spot. Stray blaster bolts fired into the walls of the cave had strangely caused the grotto to shake violently. It was not a simple cave that Solo had hidden his ship in, but the nesting area of a giant exogorth. Solo was able to pilot his ship out of the closing jaws of the massive space slug with only seconds to spare, but at the expense of knowing they would once again be engaged by the Imperial fleet.[2] The existence of an enormous space slug within the asteroid field had been written off as spacer legend until Solo's run-in with the creature. However, some continued to disbelieve the story, based on Solo's reputation for exaggeration.

[1] Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Strikes Back, Second Edition
[2] Star Wars Episode V

Yeah, as would most ships in the Imperial Navy with shields down (unless you rolled like an absolute champion on the Critical Damage table).

So the IoM has lost ships to asteroid fields then.

Anyway, the Avenger, the ship struck, survived with 'damage' we don't hear how much damage.

wookiepedia wrote:The Avenger was the only ship attached to Death Squadron that managed to stay with the Falcon through the entirety of the asteroid field, earning the warship a reputation for persistence among the Imperial Navy. Needa had sent his Star Destroyer headfirst into the asteroids as Vader had commanded, sustaining substantial damage in the process. It was all his gunnery crews could do to try and keep up with the endless task of trying to shoot down the rocky debris in the Star Destroyer's path. So, when Solo suddenly and unexpectedly banked the Millennium Falcon on an attack course straight for the pursuing Avenger, Needa and his crew were ill-prepared and lost the Rebel ship for good.[1]

[1] Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Strikes Back, Second Edition

And how does this measure up to Imperial Navy ship's shields just brushing aside asteroids?

wookiepedia wrote:The Avenger was later reassigned to Death Squadron and served as the lead attack ship at Hoth. During the course of the battle, the Avenger was disabled. [3]

[3]A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, Third Edition

We know that damage from such weapons can be repaired, but we don't know to what extent they had time to fix things before taking multiple asteroid impacts. Also, being forced to fire her weapons for days on end to keep asteroids away would have placed a strain on the ships power systems, so that is another factor. A damaged ship was forced right into a hostile situation where it was fighting for days without proper repair and refit. Thus it's not really the best representation of how much punishment a ship can take.

"Now would we see ship capable..."?

I'm not saying an ISD couldn't go toe-to-toe with a Cobra Class Escort (in fact it would probably come off better as energy weapons have greater accuracy than ordnance). All I've done is show how you can compare the difference in shield strength.

You're going to need to show that bigger equals more powerful if you think the best an ISD can take is a Cobra.

Firstly, what more can I do? What I've told you is simply from the BFG rules for moving through Asteroid fields. If you don't believe me, GW still has the BFG rules sheet on it's website I think, and you can check for yourself.

Great, and in Star Wars games a lone fighter beats an ISD and Marines can be killed by a lone grot at least some of the time. Game mechanics aren't evidence for a debate or I could prove that any Star Wars fighter can bring down a ship many times larger than itself, that people in the Star Wars universe can heal by picking up health kits, and that no matter how many weapons you carry you never get encumbered. I could also show that lascannons have a range of under a hundred meters.

I bet you dislike your own rules now don't you?

Asking you to do your own work is being a dick?

Okay, there's obviously some official high-end source that not only says that the Space Battles in the Clone Wars Cartoons and movies (I can't recall anywhere where it said that they were engaging underneath the planetary shields) are incorrect, but it replaces these incorrect sources with a definite example that SW naval engagements ussually occur hundreds thousands of kilometres apart. I'd still like to see it.

Psienesis wrote:Heh, if we cut out all the table-top stuff, we've just removed the "canon" from the WH40K aspect of the equation, since the video games, books, and single movie in the rest of it is... not really canon.

How am I supposed to prove a negative? You've put this forward. Now back it up.

So it was only a few days, not "days at the very least" as you suggested (which implied the time spend there could stretch further into weeks or months).

Well, yes. If the ship is travelling through an asteroid field. Without any shields. Whatsoever. How well would an ISD fare if they tried that?

In fact, the larger Imperial Ships (larger than escorts) would still survive such treatment.

"Substantial damage", so it was hardly a minor scrape. Then again, I can't recall obvious signs of damage from the movie (unless the trail of refuse was actually part-wreckage).

You still haven't answered my point, we know that the Avenger had suffered damage beforehand, but how does this compare to Imperial Navy shields simply brushing asteroids aside in all cases? Here we have an ISD with weakened shields suffering damage, but even the weakest Imperial Ship has shields capable of ignoring such detrius. Only when their shields are down completely do Imperial Navy ships run the risk of damage. If anything an Imperial Navy shield looks to be a lot better, since their shields recharge rapidly if one or two are knocked down.

Well that's relatively easy. If the shield on a Cobra Sword Class Frigate is capable of roughly the same protection, if not better, as an ISD, then a larger Imperial Navy ship, with shields usually quadruple the strength of a Sword Class Firgate would fare a lot better.

On reflection, a Sword or Firestorm Class Frigate is a better example, seeing as I can't recall the specifics of cobra class escorts.

Seeing as two out of three of the original Star Wars movies involve fighters destroying Super Weapons, isn't this pot calling kettle black?

And yes, a grot can kill a space marine. It's extremely unlikely, but still plausible. Why wouldn't it be?
Furthermore, I think game mechanics can be used to some extent. For example, we can use game mechanics to show that flak armour doesn't offer any real protection from bolter rounds, while carapace armour does. When it comes to range though you can dismiss ridiculous things, like how 38 millenia now the range of all weapons is less than a stones throw, becuase it contradicts other sources that offer a more logical explanation.

What exactly would a weapon with 10 light minutes range be shooting at?

But yes, a source that shows that such range is standard, rather than the exception, would be useful.

Not really, the tabletop isn't accurate to the way the game is shown in every other source for 40k information including the non-gameplay related sections of every codex. The novels and codex's are more alike to each other than things on the table top are. Unless you're trying to say that a space marine can't rapid fire a bolter further than the length of a baneblade, or fire accurately past that same distance if he's moved. It's for this reason, reasons of scale often being off, ie. compare the height of marine to a guardsman, compare the size of some vehicles to the passengers they claim to carry

Psienesis wrote:

Not really, the tabletop isn't accurate to the way the game is shown in every other source for 40k information including the non-gameplay related sections of every codex. The novels and codex's are more alike to each other than things on the table top are. Unless you're trying to say that a space marine can't rapid fire a bolter further than the length of a baneblade, or fire accurately past that same distance if he's moved. It's for this reason, reasons of scale often being off, ie. compare the height of marine to a guardsman, compare the size of some vehicles to the passengers they claim to carry

The fluff isn't internally consistent, however, which is where the problems arise, because it runs counter to other fluff, and sometimes runs counter to fluff from the very same author.

One case in point... in the few places where Eisenhorn meets a Space Marine (or a Chaos Space Marine), Abnett goes to great pains to describe the Marine's size, mentioning at one point, "that the finger was the size and shape of an Arbite's truncheon was utterly besides the point."

One of these very same Marines later gives Eisenhorn his boltpistol, which the Inquisitor then carries for many years until its loss pursuing an alpha-class renegade psyker and an unfettered daemonhost. Eisenhorn, though tall, is not Astartes-sized, by any stretch of the imagination... and, yet, uses this pistol on several occasions, even though it should not, by any means, fit in his hand.

Given that the fluff is open to artistic license and interpretation, we're left with the table-top game as the only GW-codified source of information... and then, of course, we run into the problem that its written for a specific format of wargame, and not a representation of reality.

Psienesis wrote:Unless something has changed recently, an unarmored Space Marine is nine feet tall. This is, in every sense, super-human.

Bragg is big... but he's not Space Marine big. Eisenhorn is six-feet-plus... but that's not Space Marine big.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines are described as having different proportions from a human. this includes a broader chest, a square set face, and larger thicker boned hands.

In BFG, a single Lance or Weapon battery hit is capable of completely annhilating a Escort sized vessel. roughly the same tonnage and size of a Star Destroyer.

a single lance hit actually represents a single energy beam. I assume a weapon battery would actually represent several dozen Plasma and solid slug rounds fired together in a single salvo.

I don't know what math can be reverse engineered from that, but there it is.

Here is some math i can do.

<snip>

from BL books, I belive it doesn't take more then a few seconds for weapons fire to cross these distances. assuming 3 seconds for contact with the target, that gives an estimated weapons velocity of 18,713.6 km/sec.

if we assume a Landraider sized projectile(as is said to be an example) made out of 260 cubic meters of Uranium(a dense material suitable for an armor piercing warhead)

this gives us a weight of 496.6 kilograms.

(1/2)496.6 Kilograms times 18,713.6 km/sec squared gives us a kinetic energy value of 8.9654x10^10 joules.

that gives us 86,954,368.25 KJ of force for a single slug fired in their hundreds by IoM ships.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Never seen any indication that they draw power from the warp - the only non-daemonic (at least, if you ignore the GK FAQ....) entities that regularly that are"imperium" and do so are Obliterators....

From descriptions of plasma vessels rupturing its also very 1980s ideas on fusion as well, e.g. marine backpacks al the way to ship sized generators.

Toastedandy wrote:How would you calculate the stopping power of a bolter?
Only references I know from the top of my head, are that they would blow a hole the size of a fist into a chest, or even rockcrete wall, but they have small explosives inside the bullets.

Also, the power levels of a plasma pistol, and why it doesn't get stronger as it gets bigger, the blast only gets bigger.

Canadian 5th wrote:
Bolters have a firepower power that is shockingly close to a modern hand grenade. I've done the math before, but will need to dig it up. Connor has done his own math in the thread I linked to back on page 1.

Toastedandy wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:
Bolters have a firepower power that is shockingly close to a modern hand grenade. I've done the math before, but will need to dig it up. Connor has done his own math in the thread I linked to back on page 1.

I would prefer to know how to get the result, rather than just an answer.

Corrode wrote:Are we actually trying to apply maths to 40k fluff? This is a thing?

God help us all.

Corrode wrote:It's very nice that you've looked at diagrams and all those other things but you've missed the fundamental point that they're all made up by people who have the barest idea of how any of this gear would function and in a lot of cases have just plain old made it up or even changed it between descriptions. This is one of those weird Star Wars Aspergers things except that in Star Wars the team went and produced a bunch of as-realistic-as-we-can-get stuff to help out.

Toastedandy wrote:I have to say Corrode is right. The math can only go so far, and at the end of the day, it would be far from accurate as everything is made based on the rule of cool.
But I have to say, it would be interesting to seem the limitations of certain weapons, and how effective the weapons would be if they were real.

Toastedandy wrote:But you would come up with glaring irregularities. Like a guardsmen not being wounded by a melta shot. What equation would you use to calculate the max effective range of a bolter? I have'nt done any real math for about 4 years.

Canadian 5th wrote:
Given the attitude on this board towards actually doing math and, heck, even typing in proper English I took your first post as more of the same ignorant and tiresome attitude.

Toastedandy wrote:But the problem is, that because of lack of fluff on the details of all the weapons, the only way we can get any reference figures, is from the tabletop. But as we all know, the tabletop is out of proportion, you can see this from the size of marines, guardsmen and even the tanks.

Brother Coa wrote:You can't put math and laws of physic in a universe that has very little to none of both. You may know math, but GW writers don't.

For example: give me a number of Guardsman on active duty all across the Imperium.
Or a possibility that you will see even one Space Marine in your life.
Better yet: give me the exact population number of Orks in the galaxy...

On further notice, one guy take math and he find out that output power of Lasgun shot is 1.21 GW. And we are talking about math and 40k?

And what is your problem with countries that doesn't have Engish as their first language? People are at least trying...
You are not one of those guys who thinks that North America is the whole world?

Canadian 5th wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Heh, if we cut out all the table-top stuff, we've just removed the "canon" from the WH40K aspect of the equation, since the video games, books, and single movie in the rest of it is... not really canon.

Not really, the tabletop isn't accurate to the way the game is shown in every other source for 40k information including the non-gameplay related sections of every codex. The novels and codex's are more alike to each other than things on the table top are. Unless you're trying to say that a space marine can't rapid fire a bolter further than the length of a baneblade, or fire accurately past that same distance if he's moved. It's for this reason, reasons of scale often being off, ie. compare the height of marine to a guardsman, compare the size of some vehicles to the passengers they claim to carry.

How am I supposed to prove a negative? You've put this forward. Now back it up.

I didn't actually ask you to prove a negative. You asked me to provide a slew of numbers for 40k. I'm asking you to find a specific thing and we can try to work through how to do the math for it.

So it was only a few days, not "days at the very least" as you suggested (which implied the time spend there could stretch further into weeks or months).

It was at least days, days being anything over a single day. If it was more than 7 days I would have said a week at least, more than 14 days I would have said weeks, and more than a month a month at least, and so on.

Well, yes. If the ship is travelling through an asteroid field. Without any shields. Whatsoever. How well would an ISD fare if they tried that?

In fact, the larger Imperial Ships (larger than escorts) would still survive such treatment.

We've seen them do it with at the least much reduced shields and it was at best damaged. That would likely be akin to taking a few of the more minor critical hits in BFG.

"Substantial damage", so it was hardly a minor scrape. Then again, I can't recall obvious signs of damage from the movie (unless the trail of refuse was actually part-wreckage).

Substantial can actually be used a few ways, if you're not used to fighting your definition of substantial is going to be lower than a UFC fighter for example. Thus the damage likely was substantial, at least for what they expected from asteroids. Thinks like gun barrels likely needed changing and they were still suffering from that ion cannon earlier.

You still haven't answered my point, we know that the Avenger had suffered damage beforehand, but how does this compare to Imperial Navy shields simply brushing asteroids aside in all cases? Here we have an ISD with weakened shields suffering damage, but even the weakest Imperial Ship has shields capable of ignoring such detrius. Only when their shields are down completely do Imperial Navy ships run the risk of damage. If anything an Imperial Navy shield looks to be a lot better, since their shields recharge rapidly if one or two are knocked down.

Well, both universes would have their ships would shrug of asteroids with ease if they were in good shape and become damage if they weren't. 40k ships tend to have a heavy prow so that may help them in that regard, but the spires and other smaller sections of the ship may also be in danger from hits if the shields drop. Especially those large open stained glass chapel windows. Over all though, I think we should expect both sides to come through okay with shields up or down as their hulls are designed to take larger than kiloton impacts.

On shielding coming back, that's hard to say. We know that void shields do tend to get knocked out and come back quickly. We also know that Star Wars shields do the same and that projectors can shift focus to cover fallen sections and ships roll to expose fresh sections while weakened ones recharge. In this case I don't think it was that the shields were knocked out, it's that there was significant damage down to the main power grid of the Avenger and that was hampering them.

Well that's relatively easy. If the shield on a Cobra Sword Class Frigate is capable of roughly the same protection, if not better, as an ISD, then a larger Imperial Navy ship, with shields usually quadruple the strength of a Sword Class Firgate would fare a lot better.

On reflection, a Sword or Firestorm Class Frigate is a better example, seeing as I can't recall the specifics of cobra class escorts.

Asteroids are the lowest end things we ever see hit an ISD, so shrugging them off isn't exactly impressive. Even the falcon took a few hits it couldn't evade in the field and took several hist from TIE's in the previous movie. We know that fighters have low kilotons to tens of kilotons of laser power so that's rather impressive. We also know that it can't take many though, and that she wasn't in peak shape at Hoth.

Seeing as two out of three of the original Star Wars movies involve fighters destroying Super Weapons, isn't this pot calling kettle black?

And yes, a grot can kill a space marine. It's extremely unlikely, but still plausible. Why wouldn't it be?
Furthermore, I think game mechanics can be used to some extent. For example, we can use game mechanics to show that flak armour doesn't offer any real protection from bolter rounds, while carapace armour does. When it comes to range though you can dismiss ridiculous things, like how 38 millenia now the range of all weapons is less than a stones throw, becuase it contradicts other sources that offer a more logical explanation.

That involved fighters killing a ship that had a weakness to their main weapons and a crew that didn't want to send fighters out. Even so it took a Jedi to make the shot and had he failed they would have been done for. Few others in that or any other galaxy could make the shot and even less have technology able to follow his guidance while being small enough to go down the shaft.

Things like an ISD don't have these glaring flaws and thus should hold up better, especially because unlike the Death Star they're shields weren't the weakest thing about them.

Flak armor will tend to not stop a bolter round in the books as well.

What exactly would a weapon with 10 light minutes range be shooting at?

But yes, a source that shows that such range is standard, rather than the exception, would be useful.

Space stations, cities on a planet, ships in a known orbit and the like. It won't be much use against anything maneuvering, but it does show that they have exceptionally fine turret control to even make such a shot.

I'm still trying to find data on star ship combat, it's not one of the more commonly cited things so it's taking time.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:But the problem is, that because of lack of fluff on the details of all the weapons, the only way we can get any reference figures, is from the tabletop. But as we all know, the tabletop is out of proportion, you can see this from the size of marines, guardsmen and even the tanks.

Not really, you get data from the books and the descriptions there. The table top is an abstraction of what happens in the fluff.

Canadian 5th wrote:

And what is your problem with countries that doesn't have Engish as their first language? People are at least trying...
You are not one of those guys who thinks that North America is the whole world?

Americans and Brits are as bad as anybody at times.

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, what I've said, and what other people here are saying, is that you can't do such a thing for 40k. You've said you can, so by all means go for it.

But you implied that 'days' (numbering between 1-7) was the very minimum by adding 'at least'. It's okay, it's just a little thing, so the adult thing would be to fess up and say you were incorrect in making such an implication.

The point still stands that the Imperial Navy shields operate just as well, if not better, than ISD's travelling through asteroid fields.

There's not really much to go on here, it could mean anything from a sevre hull breach to a slightly erratic communications array.

Holy hell, did you just agree with me?

A crippled Imperial Cruiser would still have void shields, albiet weakened, unless the actual void shield generator itself recieved damage (while the ship was unshielded). This weakened shield would still brush aside asteroids with ease.

Fighters do what now?

He wasn't a Jedi (even an apprentice) during the attack, but he was Force Sensitive. Still, it's an example of a fighter killing a Superweapon. As unlikely and impossible as it would initially seem, someone did it (twice).

It has always struck me as rather hilarious that ISD seem impervious to fighters, but the bigger fellas (such as the SSD) can't handle them.

Yep, and where fluff and tabletop agree, we can see that the tabletop is reliable in that regard.

It still seems extreme. You could be a tenth of that range and likely far outside the range of more common Space armanents.

...er, Good luck?

Toastedandy wrote:But there is little or no data in the books. All of it is subjective, it will vary from author to author and even in each edition.

Canadian 5th wrote:His first language isn't English, that is the point he is making. You keep telling him in a condescending manner that his English isn't up to scratch. I can understand him perfectly well, sure there will be grammar mistakes, but he has excellent English.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, what I've said, and what other people here are saying, is that you can't do such a thing for 40k. You've said you can, so by all means go for it.

Have I not been doing so?

Fighters do what now?

The lasers on a fighter have been calculated to output kilotons of energy per shot from a few sources.

It has always struck me as rather hilarious that ISD seem impervious to fighters, but the bigger fellas (such as the SSD) can't handle them.

Actually, the Executor wasn't downed just by a fighter. It was attacked by the entire rebel fleet and they managed to down the shields. You can see part of what was going on in the movie, they say that shields are down and to intensify point defense fire in the area lest something slip through. It just so happens that a quick and nimble A-Wing dodged most of the flak and happened to crash into the unshielded bridge before they could either cover it with another section of shield, or bring the section back online. You can find more details in the novelization of the movie.

Yep, and where fluff and tabletop agree, we can see that the tabletop is reliable in that regard.

Toastedandy wrote:I still don't see how one can calculate the power of certain weapons/vehicles from descriptions. Unlike SW, where the weapons would have an indepth description, alot of weapons in 40k, (in the fluff) would simply be descriptive. And if you reference the rules for the tabletop game, you will have to include all of the rules in the game, you would not be able to pick and choose stuff that will fit.

I have no problem with grammatical errors, mostly I would be able to understand it no problem. But you should understand that alot of the people on this site would be young. The hobby is aimed at people of that age.

And in regards to the attitude of this site, if you show respect, you get respect. While if you be a jerk, people will be jerks to you.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Not really. As you yourself said, there just isn't a lot of data on the 40k side of things.

Could I get a source for this? I've never seen evidence of fighters putting out shots that measure up to the blast from Hiroshima.

Mike Wong wrote:Laser Cannons

TIE fighters are armed with "laser cannons", although the characteristics of these cannons are anything but laser-like. The nature and properties of laser cannons are both very well known and there is no need to repeat a discussion of those phenomena here unless you recruits have been neglecting your studies. However, we have some preliminary analysis on a possible quantification of those weapons in Federation units.

From Luke Skywalker's strafing run in the Battle of Yavin, a single hit upon the unshielded surface of the Death Star could be seen to cause a large flash of superheated material, enough to engulf an entire X-Wing fighter and cause thermal damage to its hull despite its shields. Since armor is not flammable and lasers do not create wide-area flashes directly, one can conclude that large portions of the Death Star's surface buildings are flashing to vapor during Luke's strafing run.

Because of the shallow angle of approach and the fact that the flashes vary in size and brightness, it is difficult to gauge the actual amount of destruction being done. However, in order to create a flash of vapour the size of an X-wing fighter, the individual blasts must be vapourizing at least one cubic metre of metal each. This is a very conservative estimate since the gas also had to shoot away from the surface so quickly it intercepted the hurtling starfighter, but it will have to suffice. At least 60GJ is required to vaporize a single cubic metre of ordinary iron, so this provides a lower limit for starfighter laser cannon energy.

We must stress the highly conservative nature of this estimate: the DS shell was constructed of heavy armor, and Imperial armor is far superior to simple iron. In The Stele Chronicles, a TIE fighter pilot deliberately flew his unshielded fighter into the atmosphere of a planet at high speed as an evasive maneuver. The unprotected armor and transparent front window of his fighter were totally unaffected by this event- an event that would easily push ordinary iron beyond its maximum service temperatures as the 20th century Space Shuttle's ceramic heat tiles demonstrate. Furthermore, Imperial dura-armor is made by "compressing and binding neutronium, lomite, and zersium molecules together through the process of matrix acceleration", according to the SWE. The use of neutronium micro-particles as interstitial alloying elements in dura-armor is strongly suggestive of extreme mechanical and thermal toughness.

"Isard's Revenge" contained a few passages describing the firepower of New Republic laser cannons, in narrative form:

pg. 7 "Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan."
pg. 111 "Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing Direption's aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up."

These quotes suggest that New Republic laser cannons (and ion cannons) unleash energy in the terajoule range (implying 1E12 to 1E15 joules, otherwise it would be into the petajoule range). The second quote is a bit vague, but it describes a pair of Star Destroyers doing battle. It should be noted that both ships were already heavily damaged, and are apparently left with nothing but their laser and ion cannons (since they had destroyed each others' heavy turbolaser turrets earlier in the battle). The novel does not describe the behaviour of turbolasers and heavy turbolasers in detail, except to say that a single heavy turbolaser volley is sufficient to collapse a corvette's shields and damage it so badly that it becomes a floating hulk. This is hardly surprising, given the firepower that heavy turbolasers are known to have.

Star Destroyers also carry laser cannons, arranged in quad-laser batteries along the side trenches. These turrets are designed to quickly track small fighters and the trench notches allow these turrets a large field of fire both above and below the vessel. Some questions remain: these weapons (both on the fighters and on the Star Destroyers) are explicitly described as laser cannons in all of the source material but they do not have the basic characteristics of lasers. They appear to travel at subluminal speed while lasers travel at exactly c. They are clearly visible in the vacuum of space while lasers would never be visible in vacuum. There are two possible resolutions to these conflicts:

The word "laser" is defined differently in the Star Wars universe. This is not a satisfactory explanation because the language of the Star Wars universe is not English and the films merely show everyone speaking English so that the audience can understand. Therefore, the dialect of English in the films is 20th century American English complete with all of its dialectic subtleties, as well as its technical terms such as "laser".

Imperial laser cannons use a tracer mechanism to make them visible. This mechanism acts as a targeting and visualization aid for fighter pilots and defensive gunners, and it consists of an energy discharge which follows the laser and glows visibly. Assuming that it consists of particles which have mass, the tracer will lag behind the laser itself. This would explain the fact that the TESB asteroids actually began melting before the visible tracer arrived.

Still, from the movie the ship doesn't appear to have suffered extensive physical damage from the other ships. It really was that one fighter that took out the bridge and caused it to crash.

Yeah, having a range advantage is good and all, but 10 light minutes is still a ridiculous figure.

Toastedandy wrote:10 lightminutes?! So if the weapon you are firing would reach its target within ten minutes, IF it were travelling at light speed. If not, it would take much longer. Would the power decrease over such a distance?

Canadian 5th wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:I still don't see how one can calculate the power of certain weapons/vehicles from descriptions. Unlike SW, where the weapons would have an indepth description, alot of weapons in 40k, (in the fluff) would simply be descriptive. And if you reference the rules for the tabletop game, you will have to include all of the rules in the game, you would not be able to pick and choose stuff that will fit.

I have no problem with grammatical errors, mostly I would be able to understand it no problem. But you should understand that alot of the people on this site would be young. The hobby is aimed at people of that age.

And in regards to the attitude of this site, if you show respect, you get respect. While if you be a jerk, people will be jerks to you.

You can get a fair bit of data from looking at what weapons do in the fluff. Star Wars hasn't had any details like those in the ICS until recently anyway. Also, the rules for the tabletop are most certainly abstractions as we can all agree that scale, range, and the like aren't all that realistic.

As for grammar, being young isn't the much of an excuse. I'm only 23 and some of the people that are bad are older than that and some not much younger. It's an effort thing.

Toastedandy wrote:And the jerk thing?

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Not really. As you yourself said, there just isn't a lot of data on the 40k side of things.

There will be some holes in the data, and things like an exact number will rarely be possible. That said you can get things like rough firepower estimates and rough troop numbers.

Could I get a source for this? I've never seen evidence of fighters putting out shots that measure up to the blast from Hiroshima.

Sure, though this bit isn't my own work.

Mike Wong wrote:*wall of text*

The conservative estimate of 60-100GJ mentioned here is much less impressive that that of several kilotons.

Still, from the movie the ship doesn't appear to have suffered extensive physical damage from the other ships. It really was that one fighter that took out the bridge and caused it to crash.

It was a combination of damage suffered from the turbolasers of the rebel fleet, the fighter, and then being pulled into the gravity well of the Death Star after an engine misfire. Had the DS not been there then it would have recovered, or simply smashed through a smaller ship.

Yeah, there are contributing factors. But we are still talking about a single fighter contributing (extensively) to the destruction of a Super Star Destroyer.

Yeah, having a range advantage is good and all, but 10 light minutes is still a ridiculous figure.

Indeed it does seem large, but those are the facts.

This is the part where you take such things with a grain of salt.


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Canadian 5th wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:And the jerk thing?

I can be a jerk, other people have been jerks back. I'm no less correct if I present data in a a pleasant fashion or if it's in a less pleasant way.

No. This is dakka. That attitude isn't going to get you anywhere here.