This is a document I wrote a while ago, about my pet theory about the Emperor.
Argument
It is argued that the God Emperor of Man was an old one who remained in hiding long after the war in heaven ended. During the great crusade he reunited fractured humanity and forged the Imperium using both tactical genius, scientific knowledge and raw psychic power. He also did work involving building a portal into the web way and extending existing sections.
The Emperor shunned all aspects of the warp and was opposed to psychic powers, worship of gods and any superstition. This is because he viewed the warp as something which was inherently dangerous as it contained entities like the Chaos Gods and Enslavers. Wanting to save at least one sentient race he chose humanity, although other aliens encountered were incorporated into the Imperium if they were peaceful.
Evidence
He did work on the Web way, since the Old ones built it he would be familiar with it.
He was an incredibly powerful psyker, something all Old Ones could attest to.
He saved at least one race made by the Old Ones (humanity), possibly in attempt to save his races legacy.
The Old Ones were described as being incredibly ancient and caring, two things the Emperor was.
It is possible the Emperor sensed the Necrons were reawakening and wanted a united galaxy to crush them, hence his motivation for forming the Imperium.
According to what I know/have heard and read the emperor himself was actually born a mortal, only he is extremely old being born many many many millennia before the 41st and since he had begun to explore his psychic powers beginning so from a young age (the powers being present perhaps by the speculation that he was an enhanced human created by the shaman psykers of his time committing suicide and allowing the power of all their souls to combine into one etc), this would explain his connection to the webway in that sense, instead of having helped in its construction he was able to familiarise himself with the warp and areas that connect to the warp (at least he did in part or for certain bits of information about it) due to his latent psychic connection to it. As to his motives behind saving humanity and building an imperium, one was for general safety, and the other of course would have been to fulfill the desire of leading ones own race in progress as well as to utilise his extraordinary powers for some kind of purpose.
Basically, a group of human shamans all sacrificed themselves to create a super-physcic human - the Emporer. He isn't an old one. He is just a psyker with a power level of over 9000...
Considering the Old Ones were exterminated by the Enslavers and the C'tan, and that the Emperor is mortal, just extremely gifted for his species and think it's a definate no. It is overruled by all existing canon.
It would be an interesting theory, if the possibilty was there, but it isn't possible.
iproxtaco wrote:I think you may misunderstand the meaning of mortal in that context.
Mortal being capable of death?
If it wasnt for the Golden Throne he would be dead. IIRC only a few cells of the Emporer remain alive... He is dying and most of him is already dead.
Ah....no.... He is immortal in a way that he could never die by natural death. And Horus isn't quite natural Human. And even if he die in body he will still be alive in soul, and that's immortality...
He is as mortal as any psyker of the imperium. He is just a psyker, only stronger. He may have insane power because of the immaterium, but he is still mortal in body. He is just stronger than any human because of the fact he is enhanced by his warp powers, genetic enhancement; like astartes, and many millions of years training. Using the term IS may be the wrong tense. WAS I think would be better.
zilegil wrote:He is as mortal as any psyker of the imperium. He is just a psyker, only stronger. He may have insane power because of the immaterium, but he is still mortal in body. He is just stronger than any human because of the fact he is enhanced by his warp powers, genetic enhancement; like astartes, and many millions of years training. Using the term IS may be the wrong tense. WAS I think would be better.
He's the Emperor, not a god.
He lived for several thousand years...
That sounds pretty immortal to me.
He can die since he isn't invulnrable but before he dusted he seemed to be immortal.
zilegil wrote:He is as mortal as any psyker of the imperium. He is just a psyker, only stronger. He may have insane power because of the immaterium, but he is still mortal in body. He is just stronger than any human because of the fact he is enhanced by his warp powers, genetic enhancement; like astartes, and many millions of years training. Using the term IS may be the wrong tense. WAS I think would be better.
He's the Emperor, not a god.
Still confusing Immortal and Invulnerable. The Emperor is not a normal Psyker, his powers transcend that of the mortal plane, he is not a normal human. He is effectively a God, before his internment on The Throne, he was Immortal, but not Invulnerable. He is currently living on borrowed time.
Looking at it, there are a couple of different definitions of 'immortal,' so he is both immortal and not immortal, depending on which particular definition you use. It's not a hard and fast term.
Yes, before his internment, he was Immortal in that he would never die of the human aging process. He was not invulnerable in that he was obviously able to be harmed in combat. The "mortal" wounds are wounds that will cause him death due to their severity.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:He isnt immortal because he can die. Immortality means you can't die. And the Emporer can die.
Immortal means you can't die naturally, you can if you are killed by unnatural means.
The Emperor is no longer immortal, he may have been prior to the Heresy or just have had an unnatural lifespan, but his immortality has been compromised.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:He isnt immortal because he can die. Immortality means you can't die. And the Emporer can die.
Immortal means you can't die naturally, you can if you are killed by unnatural means.
The Emperor is no longer immortal, he may have been prior to the Heresy or just have had an unnatural lifespan, but his immortality has been compromised.
Well he may still be immortal but he was so badly injured if he dies it'll be because of his wounds and not due to old age.
He's immortal the same way that Elves are in LOTR--- they can live forever, but if they are badly hurt or damaged they will die just like anything else.
nectarprime wrote:He's immortal the same way that Elves are in LOTR--- they can live forever, but if they are badly hurt or damaged they will die just like anything else.
I think he may be an Old One by technicality, but he wasn't born one.
But that's like saying he's a Chaos God by technicality as he is a powerful, immortal entity that is inexplicably tied to the warp and has god-like powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Which is one of my pet theories.
nectarprime wrote:He's immortal the same way that Elves are in LOTR--- they can live forever, but if they are badly hurt or damaged they will die just like anything else.
This is my understanding of immortality.
It's one of several valid definitions. Immortality can mean not being to subject to some, most, or all forms of death.
Small, Far Away wrote:I think he may be an Old One by technicality, but he wasn't born one.
But that's like saying he's a Chaos God by technicality as he is a powerful, immortal entity that is inexplicably tied to the warp and has god-like powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Which is one of my pet theories.
In the context of 40k the term Old Ones refers to a distinct race, it doesn't mean long lived, someone born to human parents cannot turn into a Old One. Old Ones is the name given to the super race because they lived a long time ago.
The Emperor could also not be defined as a Chaos God, as that refers to a destict group of warp being (the warp is inhabitated by a variety of creatures/being) that has a significant desire to watch the mortal world burn.
DeadlySquirrel is correct, the emperor is not immortal. While it may commonly be used to mean a being that doesn't age, it is being incorrectly used. Immortal means not mortal. A mortal is something subject to death. An immortal cannot die- in anyway. There are no varying definitions- just people bending the words use. It's just a lot easier to say "he is immortal" than "he never aged and was impossible to kill unless you have something which can"
Invulnerable means another thing entirely. being invulnerable means impossible to harm. The emperor recieved wounds during his battles (not just from the fight with Horus) so wasn't invulnerable. It's possible to be immortal but not invulnerable- a being which cannot die but can be hurt.
The emperor was neither immortal nor invulnerable. He was a psyker with a prolonged life (it's impossible to say anything can live for ever since we have never reached that point) and had superhuman abilities.
I think most people have no idea what immortal really means. According to biblical sources it means that after bodily death, a persons soul goes on living in a different dimension. In the case of the Emperor that would probably be the Warp. Then there is Eternal Life. Biblically that means you cannot harm the physical body by any normal means, not even old age. In order to harm someone like that it would require a god like power, as in the case of Morai Heg asking Khaine to cut off her hand so she could partake of the wisdom contained in her divine blood. This is also why there is a differentiation in the bible between the word Immortality and Eternal Life. They do make a distinction.
The emperor is immortal, but he does not have eternal life.
I think most people have no idea what immortal really means. According to biblical sources it means that after bodily death, a persons soul goes on living in a different dimension. In the case of the Emperor that would probably be the Warp. Then there is Eternal Life. Biblically that means you cannot harm the physical body by any normal means, not even old age. In order to harm someone like that it would require a god like power, as in the case of Morai Heg asking Khaine to cut off her hand so she could partake of the wisdom contained in her divine blood. This is also why there is a differentiation in the bible between the word Immortality and Eternal Life. They do make a distinction.
That doesn't really make sense. Their body cannot be harmed but they can die?
In the english language Immortal simply means never dying. No special meanings or exceptions. It means eternal, never ending life. The direct definition is: "Living forever; never dying or decaying". If we take the biblical definition a lot of creatures in 40k are immortal as many species loose their soul to the warp any many are capable of surviving it. All eldar would be immortal as would chaos worshippers.
Fine, he is biologically immortal
I hate to nitpick but still incorrect. The emperor isn't immortal in anyway since his physical body has died (well it's on the edge and would be gone if not for the golden throne). Comparing the emp to the above definintion shows he is't immortal at all.
It's impossible to prove that he is immortal biologically or otherwise. He may have been a year away from death before Horus beat him.
Nothing can ever be proved as immortal because that would require them to have lived for ever. Since time never ends we can't check. It's likely he was immortal but until GW provide and outside view saying he was immortal we can't be sure.
4M2A wrote:DeadlySquirrel is correct, the emperor is not immortal. While it may commonly be used to mean a being that doesn't age, it is being incorrectly used. Immortal means not mortal. A mortal is something subject to death. An immortal cannot die- in anyway. There are no varying definitions- just people bending the words use. It's just a lot easier to say "he is immortal" than "he never aged and was impossible to kill unless you have something which can"
Invulnerable means another thing entirely. being invulnerable means impossible to harm. The emperor recieved wounds during his battles (not just from the fight with Horus) so wasn't invulnerable. It's possible to be immortal but not invulnerable- a being which cannot die but can be hurt.
The emperor was neither immortal nor invulnerable. He was a psyker with a prolonged life (it's impossible to say anything can live for ever since we have never reached that point) and had superhuman abilities.
Thank you.
EDIT: Biological Immortality is different... It means you cannot die of old age. You can still die by being hit by a bus, a flesh eating virus or a crazed axe murderer. Yes, the Emprah is biologicaly immortal but is by no means immortal.
4M2A wrote:DeadlySquirrel is correct, the emperor is not immortal. While it may commonly be used to mean a being that doesn't age, it is being incorrectly used. Immortal means not mortal. A mortal is something subject to death. An immortal cannot die- in anyway. There are no varying definitions- just people bending the words use. It's just a lot easier to say "he is immortal" than "he never aged and was impossible to kill unless you have something which can"
Invulnerable means another thing entirely. being invulnerable means impossible to harm. The emperor recieved wounds during his battles (not just from the fight with Horus) so wasn't invulnerable. It's possible to be immortal but not invulnerable- a being which cannot die but can be hurt.
The emperor was neither immortal nor invulnerable. He was a psyker with a prolonged life (it's impossible to say anything can live for ever since we have never reached that point) and had superhuman abilities.
Thank you.
EDIT: Biological Immortality is different... It means you cannot die of old age. You can still die by being hit by a bus, a flesh eating virus or a crazed axe murderer. Yes, the Emprah is biologicaly immortal but is by no means immortal.
But there is one hole in all of this, mortal also means that you stop to exist after death. And all is pointing to that the Emperor's soul will still be out there even after his body fails.
+ there is 99% chance that he will be resurrect after death, get new body and all... Now that's true immortality.
Yeah, I thought you missed everything I was saying before now, which for further clarity, was that The Emperor was immune to the effects of aging, the proper term for which is biological immortality, hence, since this is true, The Emperor is Immortal. There's a reason to why hes referred to as The Immortal God Emperor in fluff. Of course, as is predictable, once proved wrong by the term Biological Immortality, which by definition and terminology is Immortality, the opposition dismisses it as "by no means immortal".
iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, I thought you missed everything I was saying before now, which for further clarity, was that The Emperor was immune to the effects of aging, the proper term for which is biological immortality, hence, since this is true, The Emperor is Immortal. There's a reason to why hes referred to as The Immortal God Emperor in fluff.
Of course, as is predictable, once proved wrong by the term Biological Immortality, which by definition and terminology is Immortality, the opposition dismisses it as "by no means immortal".
No. Biological Immortality is not true immortality. It means you cannot die of old age. As i previously stated, you can die from other causes such as being hit by a bus.
Immortality means you are incapable of dying. And seeing as the Emprah only has a few cells left alive and the others are DEAD, I'd say he is not immortal.
The definition of immortal:
im·mor·tal   
[ih-mawr-tl]
–adjective
1.
not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
2.
remembered or celebrated through all time
3.
not liable to perish or decay
Definition of invulnerable:
in·vul·ner·a·ble   
[in-vuhl-ner-uh-buhl]
–adjective
1.
incapable of being wounded, hurt, or damaged.
2.
proof against or immune to attack
3.
not open to denial or disproof
Immortal applies, invulnerable does not. The Emperors SOUL will not die. Is body IS dead. And don't forget the Star Child, nor the Illuminati.
The Emperor has longevity, in that he has a long natural lifespan, seemingly immortal, but not proven so, though does this stupid argument really matter?
Anyway, the Emperor, as has been said before, has had his origins spelled out, being a reincarnation of psykers/shamans.
htj wrote:No, neither of them are trolling. They just disagree with each other and both believe themselves to be right.
Also, I do not believe that there is a 'scientific' definition of immortality.
Yes, biological immortality, the absence of the effect of aging.
Can you cite a scientific source in which that is used? If it's too much of a hassle, don't worry, I'm just interested to see where this is used in a scientific context.
iproxtaco wrote:Nope. People are far too quick to shout troll these days.
It simply the absence of the aging effect. As noted in the article, death can be achieved, so to speak, by sufficient trauma or disease. It's a scientific definition, not the true immortality cited in the Immortality page.
However, if The Emperor is able to reincarnate indefinitely, which could be demonstrated by the Star-child/Sensei theories, then he could be truly immortal.
there is much side-ways GW logic missing in this thread.
1. Gods die in 40k, but they are immortal. Case in point is the avatar of the bloody handed god (who it may be recalled is dead yet brought to life via the avatar). Cain also killed his brother god.
2. The emperor differs from gods only in having a canon claiming human birth. Sound familiar to Christians?
3. The emperor is honored as a god in the imperium, not becuase he lived a long time nor because he was born human, but because he did things only a god could do.
4. He is opposed to chaos and their Gods, but this doesn't mean he isn't of the same stuff. He very well could be another Chaos god (as we'd call them) only with the opposite view of life. Remember there were other "gods" that didn't quite make it in GW land. Malal being the prime example of an anti-chaos oriented chaos god. While not exactly good, he was opposed to all the other chaos gods.
6. He lives on the golden chair, because for GW to explain anything further would end the endless debates that keep us buying stuff from GW.
The old ones are simply a GW effort to keep any of the existing races from being the oldest, and divorce fluff from any existing serious religion. You cant have a single god knowing and creating everything, as this would lead to divisive debates with no good outcome. A race of old beings seeding intelligent life, is BTW a 20th century explanation of how humans evolved faster/better than others.
My take, FWIW, is that the emperor is a GW style God, not unlike all the other super beings. Like them he has great powers, and like them he can be killed.
iproxtaco wrote:Since when has The Emperor been mortal?
Well, since his body is being kept alive by the universe's largest iron lung, I think it's safe to say that his body is mortal, at least.
I almost peed myself with laughter!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone have the reference to the book where an Inquistor talks to the Emperor and finds out he has multiple personalities? Somewhere the fluff as states the Emperor was made up of 12 beings and they came together as one...
You guys do realize it doesn't matter what the definition means in this case right? But more so what Games Workshop means to imply about the Emperors lifespan
If the Emperor is immortal/mortal/biologically immortal/theologically immortal/etc is of no value when asked the question 'is the Emperor an Old One?' as the Old Ones were killed.
The main thing is that the Emperor was born to human parents, with the spirits of human psykers, long after the fall of the Old Ones from this the Emperor is not an Old One.
Except that the SM aren't immortal, by any definition. They can be killed. They grow old. They just do it far more slowly. Their natural lifespans have been enhanced, from my understanding.
If they were truly immortal you'd have marines with so many studs in their head (one per century i think? ) that the'd no longer need a helmet
Not sure about the Custodes, as there is very little fluff on them that's definite, but i'd doubt they are truly immortal. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sre the fluff doesn't say either way.
The Emperor is a corpse possessed by his own soul, anchored there by a very high tech life support system that's failing.
He is a bit of a schrodinger's cat. No-one's sure if he's dead or not until someone opens the box For purposes of the game he's immortal-ish as the timeline has ground to a halt.
Loken mentions that all Astartes are functionally immortal, the same biological immortality that Argel Tal, and The Occuli Imperator say the Custodes have. Neither of them die by aging. Iacton Qruze was stilll as vital as an aspirant, so was Garro, so is Dante. You realize that marines don't live that long normally because they're killed in battle, right? It's inevitable. Dante is unusual, he's about 1600 years old IIRC and is going with no signs of physically stopping.
There is conflicting information. Some sources say SM are biologically immortal others say they age very slowly but do die just none have reached that point yet. The BA codex explains that BA have a mutation allowing them to live longer than normal SMs - this means they would have an age limit. It depends which fluff you believe.
It is conflicting. The First HH book mentions the Space Marines immortality several times when speaking about Iacton Qruze. The Custodes have no such conflict, Argel Tal says they're immortal, biologically of course.
You do realise that Black Library doesn't always have the best record on sticking to established fluff 'fact', also
Marines usually die in battle rather than old age, but there are Marines that show signs of old age, and so presumably will die in due course of it. If they don't age they would all still look the same age as when they were recruited.
This would be true if there was established fluff 'fact'.
This is the the conflicting part. They're either not Immortal, or they are, and even under their Immortality there are different meanings. Biological Immortality is the absence of aging. Clearly Space Marines age, so it would mean their bodies are functionally immortal, it will stay youthful forever, if the HH is to be believed. The mind, that's different. Dante's mind is aging, so was Iactons, and the latter had aged features. It's obviously complicated.
Yes, i doubt GW are ever going to give a complete answer because it would be very difficult to go either way without going against a lot of fluff.
The fact that they grow older in appearances suggests they can die of older age. If the SM treatment froze aging they would all look young but they don't. From what we know of their capabilities it looks like they do age but they remain physically capable in the neccessary areas. There must be a point where this overcome their ability to keep functioning or they would get so aged they would just fall apart.
Space Wolves have a genetic mutation IIRC. But I see what you mean and I agree, the fluff conflicts all the time, and this is clearly a complicated issue.
Biological Immortality is perfectly possible, there's no actual explanation of the aging effect, but Space Marines, if indeed they are immortal in this sense, would have either rejuvenating telomeres or their chromosomes are copied right to the end of the strand.
If there chromosomes were copied fully they wouldn't appear to age so the treament doesn't stop aging. They may have ways for stopping ageing but the standard process that turns a human into a SM doesn't do it.
Well obviously it does according to the HH. Those are current ways of doing it. There's no explanation in fluff, I would suggest that it doesn't keep their hair or skin free of aging. I also never said that it wasn't complicated, or that what I said was the actual reasons.
I think most of the aged looks come from them being veterans of combat, as they live most of their lives battling or training. Most people who go through troubling times look older I assume it's the same for Marines. The older they get the more battle scars they recieve, and when human skin gets beaten around alot it gets tougher looking it might be the same for marines. I've never seen or heard a Space Marine not in his physical prime they might seem older as they become more battle hardened, but no marine has ever complained about joint pain or any sign of aging.
OP: The Emperor is not an old one, though he may be a god.
As for him being imortal, he at one point MAY have been mortal, but the worship of humanity made him a god. Just like the chaos gods where made by the emotions of sentient races.
No the idea he has become a god is a theory- one which hasn't been mentioned in a long time. Just worshiping something doesn't make it a god. Chaos gods are formed from emotions gathering in the warp. None of the chaos gods were worshipped before they existed. If the emperor was to become a god what emotion would he feed on? The whole range of emotions are already taken by the chaos gods. That's why they are the most powerful - because all the smaller gods are just aspects of them, they are their chosen emotion in its most basic form.
I can solve the immortality argument! hes immortal like Duncan McCleod from highlander, he can be killed, but isnt going to die if hes not. so I go with the hughlander deffinition of immortal applying to the emperor
We can only hope his body doesn't decay further (yes..i know it doesn't) or one of the cleaning staff have an accident that pops his skull off. One almighty lightning storm later the IOM will be looking for another boss...
romegamer wrote:I can solve the immortality argument! hes immortal like Duncan McCleod from highlander, he can be killed, but isnt going to die if hes not. so I go with the hughlander deffinition of immortal applying to the emperor
wanax wrote: 2. The emperor differs from gods only in having a canon claiming human birth. Sound familiar to Christians?
Christ was not a god. He was just the hand of the father. Or even the mouth of the father. If you call him a god you might as well call christians gods. Well I suppose in a way they are a part of god; the spirit of god. They do his work. But of course, a quote. The spirit IS NOT the father. And. The son IS NOT the father. But all of them are god. So fair enough, I take it back. Christ was god. But not the whole god. I made a common mistake. The mistake the trinity was explained as a reminder.
I'm not a Christian. I'm totally agnostic. But I do like RE.
I suppose your point still stands. It is similar.
And I am listening to Maiden at the moment. So my judgement is a bit redundant.
Surely the emperor wasn't mortal, the bloke was 4000 thousand years old, long before humanity had the technology to live unaturally long. The guy was around before Jesus wasn't he?
mattyrm wrote:Surely the emperor wasn't mortal, the bloke was 4000 thousand years old, long before humanity had the technology to live unaturally long. The guy was around before Jesus wasn't he?
It's strongly hinted that he was along with many other important figures (gw will never actually say the emperor was jesus). Up until the beginning of the great crusade the emperor had wanted to push humanity in the right direction without actually leading it. He had been trying different strategies from behind the scenes but got tired of watching humanity fail so he decided it was time to lead.
The Emperor was very happy to sit in the shadows and only took charge when he came to the conclusion it was the only way. He was happy to tolerate other humans. The great crusades was the moment he decided he'd had enough and was going to force humanity to work together. The Great Crusade would have failed if had accepted other views.
As if IOM fanboys needed MORE of a messiah complex
I'm really not seeing the supposedly strong hints that he was, given the near total dissimilarity (magic powers are the only similarity i can see) but if you'll give me a booklist and page references i'll read up
Given the grasp on history the BL seem to have (sarcasm alert) you could as easily claim that he was stalin, caligula, Sun Tzu..
I quote:
"he was born to mortal parents many, many millennia ago, manifesting his powers as a youth... This account also claims that the Emperor's birth, while a natural process, was actually the result of a scheme created by the wisest and most powerful of living humans at that time; the conclave of shamans. These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later."
this is taken directly from lexicanum and should explain where the emperor came from.
mattyrm wrote:Surely the emperor wasn't mortal, the bloke was 4000 thousand years old, long before humanity had the technology to live unaturally long. The guy was around before Jesus wasn't he?
It's very likely he was Jesus
I still say Jesus was his son...which would make Jesus a primarch
Back on topic. If you type god emperor Jesus into the internet you end up with a lot of forum threads like this. So we aren't the only ones to have thought of it.
Anyway. If jesus was his son that means that the emperor is capable of fornication. We learn something every day. That's guessing that the emperor ad not worked out how to grow men out of his DNA then.
Back on topic. If you type god emperor Jesus into the internet you end up with a lot of forum threads like this. So we aren't the only ones to have thought of it.
Anyway. If jesus was his son that means that the emperor is capable of fornication. We learn something every day. That's guessing that the emperor ad not worked out how to grow men out of his DNA then.
The Emperor is able to fornicate in fact he has tons of children all of which do not age, look up the Sensei
iproxtaco wrote:The argument goes against established canon.
This.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deffskulla wrote:
Anyone have the reference to the book where an Inquistor talks to the Emperor and finds out he has multiple personalities? Somewhere the fluff as states the Emperor was made up of 12 beings and they came together as one...
This takes place in the Inquisition War trilogy, and is the source of the whole Star Child thing. The Emperor is the amalgam of thousands of shamans, et. al., but his long imprisonment in the throne is causing his personality to fracture and fray (he's slowly going crazy, basically). The Star Child is his compassion, which was cast out when he finally could bring himself to kill Horus.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Basically, a group of human shamans all sacrificed themselves to create a super-physcic human - the Emporer. He isn't an old one. He is just a psyker with a power level of over 9000...
So he is devoid of compassion, so AKA a psychopath.
He has multiple personality disorder.
Are you sure this guy should rule mankind? I mean it seems a bit dangerous.
I spose we don't really need to worry about that anymore. Maybe the high lords of terra were right. They may be power greedy. They may accept imperial cults. But at least they are not madmen.
Nearly every great leader in the history of the world has been a psychopath to some degree, so are CEOs. It is a quality that is needed when making hard decisions that are in the long run for the betterment of a society or group.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Basically, a group of human shamans all sacrificed themselves to create a super-physcic human - the Emporer. He isn't an old one. He is just a psyker with a power level of over 9000...
I agree with what this guy said
and another note, I remember hearing somewhere that back in some old school/original/unaltered fluff, that the warhammer and warhammer 40,000 universes were connected.
in warhammer, as the threat of chaos was just beginning to appear, the wizards in warhammer fantasy realized that the power of chaos was slowly killing them off, (I mean physically and spiritually, because apparently they would reincarnate from what I've been told) At some point, the wizards decided that they would sacrifice themselves all at once, and all that psychic energy could not be destroyed by chaos all at once. All that psychic energy managed to reincarnate itself as (who would be become) the emperor of mankind. The emperor would also be the being(s) who would create armies and empires and try to conquer the world throughout history (alexander the great anyone?)
thats something a red shirt told me once, I asked him why did GW null that and change the store to "a group of shamans" but he didn't know why.
Okay everyone, after reading all the fine arguements you've all put up I've been convinced of my own error, and 'evidence' I posted initially can be refuted.
The Emperor was pretty F&@king smart, so he was able to figure out the webway like the Eldar.
Him being a powerful psyker is explained by the official story of wizards/shamans reincarnating in him.
His first priority was humanity by simple virtue of him being human himself.
The reincarnation story would make him ancient and caring.
For those who want to read emperor communication can read this spoiler from inquisitor war series -
WARNING, SPOILERS FOR "DRACO" FOLLOW.
Spoiler:
"WE ARE CURIOUS," came a mighty anguished thought which itself transcended time. "WE HAVE FOLLOWED YOUR INTRUSION INTO OUR SANCTUARY, OUR ANTRUM AND ADYTUM.
"My lord." Jaq sank to his knees. "I beg to report to you before I am destroyed. I may have uncovered a major conspiracy-"
"THEN WE WILL STRIP YOUR SOUL BARE. RELAX, MORTAL MAN, OR YOU WILL SURELY DIE IN SUCH PAIN ASWE ALWAYS ENDURE."
-Jaq is subsequently soul-stripped and then restored-
"WE HAVE PUT BACK WHAT WE TOOK AND TASTED, INQUISITOR"
"WE ARE MANY, INQUISITOR"
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
"SO DOES THE HYDRA THREATEN US?"
"IMPERILLING OUR GREAT AND AWFUL PLAN TO STEER HUMANITY?"
"DID WE OURSELVES DEVISE THE HYDRA?"
"PERHAPS IN A PART OF US, SINCE THE HYDRA PROMISES A PATH?"
"SURELY A MALEVOLENT PATH; FOR HOW COULD HUMANITY EVER FREE ITSELF?"
"THEN WE MUST BE MALEVOLENT TOO. FOR WE HAVE EXPELLED OUR SENTIMENTALITY LONG AGO. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ENDURED? HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE IMPOSED OUR RULE?"
"YET BY VIRTUE OF THAT WE ARE PURE AND UNCONTAMINATED BY WEAKNESS. WE ARE GRIM SALVATION."
"NOTHING THAT SAFEGUARDS HUMANITY CAN BE EVIL, NOT EVEN THE MOST STRENUOUS INHUMANITY. IF THE HUMAN RACE FAILS IT HAS FAILED FOREVER."
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
"Great Lord of All, did you know of the Hydra before now?" Jaq asks.
"YET SURELY WE KNEW. HOW COULD WE NOT KNOW?"
"ONCE WE HAVE ANALYSED THE INFORMATION WITHIN THIS SUB-MIND OF OURS."
"HEAR THIS, JAQ DRACO: ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED TIME ONLY HALTS FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE, UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET STILL WE MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH? SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE"
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A REFLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
-After which Jaq Draco and his retinue flee and time resumes-
My opinion is that the real emperor was killed during the attack on Sixty-Three-Nineteen. And that the legions who fell to chaos realised their mistake, thus beginning their quest to dethrone the false emperor. Perhaps their battle cry "death to the false emperor" is true.
If holy terra is supposed to be earth is it not in the wrong position in the milky way?
BluntmanDC wrote:Nearly every great leader in the history of the world has been a psychopath to some degree, so are CEOs. It is a quality that is needed when making hard decisions that are in the long run for the betterment of a society or group.
Erm, not quite.
There is, I believe but don't have it to hand, evidence that a higher proportion than the norm of CEO's and the like are sociopaths (/have ASPD).
This does not mean by any stretch that every great leader has been a sociopath.
To think that sociopaths make decisions for the betterment of a society is missing the point about sociopaths. The defining characteristic of sociopaths is their disregard for others.
Lord Demon wrote:My opinion is that the real emperor was killed during the attack on Sixty-Three-Nineteen. And that the legions who fell to chaos realised their mistake, thus beginning their quest to dethrone the false emperor. Perhaps their battle cry "death to the false emperor" is true.
That would, however, require a massive retcon.
If holy terra is supposed to be earth is it not in the wrong position in the milky way?
Not as far as I know. It's on the Western side of the Milky Way, at least. Segmentum Solar is not in the centre of the Mliky Way.
The emperor isn't immortal in anyway since his physical body has died (well it's on the edge and would be gone if not for the golden throne). Comparing the emp to the above definintion shows he is't immortal at all.
So my judgement is a bit redundant.