This is a theory I've been tossing around in my head for awhile. I wanted to run it by all of you so that I could get your take and see if there is anything in the fluff that I'm missing.
Here's why I think that Cypher, the Fallen Angel, is really Lion El'Jonson. First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos. Instead, they just followed the orders of Luther to fire on the returning Dark Angels fleet. They tend to rally around Cypher and, supposedly, Cypher is making his way to Terra to obtain forgiveness for the Fallen. This seems to be a role that the Primarch would fill, seeking redemption for his chapter in an attempt to reunite them.
Second, Cypher possesses the Lion Sword. I'm not quite sure how he could have obtained said weapon without being Lion El'Jonson.
Third, there is no mention of what happened to the Lion after his duel with Luther.
Fourth, Luther maintains that the Lion will return and forgive him. This certainly seems to be what Cypher is trying to do.
Fifth, in the Horus Heresy novels the Lord Cypher is the keeper of rituals, rites, and traditions for the Order and then the Dark Angels. This would be a position that Lion El'Jonson might have taken up himself after the debacle on Caliban.
Shayden wrote:One problem... Lion El'Jonson is in The Rock. He has been there for 10,000 years, guarded by The Watchers in the Dark.
This.
Interesting theory however. Wrong, but interesting. There is some evidence that support it, you are right. But fluff states that the Lion is in The Rock.
I'm with Darthslowe on this one. I've believed for many years that Cypher is the Lion. "Asleep in the Rock" could easily be a euphemism. Don't forget that the Dark Angels are all about secrets and perhaps the final secret is that "Asleep" is a lie. Perhaps the final secret is that the chapters master has seemingly turned to chaos (though that may not be cypher's true purpose). Now THAT would be something to give the Dark Angels shame. and yes he does have the sword.
cadium and OP, you are both incorrect based upon all existing fluff.
LEJ is in the Rock.
Cypher is the same size as a regular SM. He dual-wields master crafted guns but never draws the sword. He is attempting to return it... always has been. This is established throughout 4 editions of fluff.
If El Liono genuinely isn't in the Rock - and that'd be some rather dickish misdirection on GW's part if not - then, as a theory, it makes a lot of sense.
I don't think it's true, but if so, it'd be pretty damn awesome.
It would explain why Cypher is in green armour instead of black... but there are a bunch of more plausible explanations for that.
The biggest problem (other than the whole 'yeah, but he's;s in the rock' thing is really just that Cypher's not big enough or powerful enough to be a Primarch.
More like 'some of the Fallen were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and are thus being hunted anyway'.
It's a neat theory. I'm inclined to believe that the Lion is in the Rock myself, but to throw a wrench in the works by discussing The Other Side -- who says the Lion can't pretend to be Cypher, just for kicks?
Candroth wrote:More like 'some of the Fallen were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and are thus being hunted anyway'.
More like "all of the Fallen were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and were being used as pawns alongside of Luther to try to force Lion El'Jonson to destroy his homeworld". The important thing to remember is that after Luther struck at the Lion...he felt remorse. There's a reason why the Ruinous Powers flung the Fallen throughout time and space, and it's not because they did a good job.
It's because they fought back against the fate the Ruinous Powers tried to coerce them into...albeit, the damage to Caliban was already done and there's no real hope of salvation or redemption, but they weren't fully tainted.
Think of it like Darth Vader.
It's a neat theory. I'm inclined to believe that the Lion is in the Rock myself, but to throw a wrench in the works by discussing The Other Side -- who says the Lion can't pretend to be Cypher, just for kicks?
Because it's not a subjective piece of information given to us by some claim that's been thrown out there by a character within the canon. It is something that we, the omniscient viewers, know that while the Dark Angels do not. The only individuals who know that Jonson is in a 'secret' cell within the Rock are the Watchers in the Dark.
Because it's not a subjective piece of information given to us by some claim that's been thrown out there by a character within the canon. It is something that we, the omniscient viewers, know that while the Dark Angels do not. The only individuals who know that Jonson is in a 'secret' cell within the Rock are the Watchers in the Dark.
Grey Templar wrote:now, wasn't it said in Angels of Darkness that Luther is in the rock too?
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther and is trying to break him or force him to repent. He refuses, saying that the Lion will one day return and forgive him.
How in the name of all that's logical or sane Luther is still alive is a mystery to me. Maybe they put him in stasis, revive him and try to make him repent then toss him back in the freezer afterwards?
I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?
deffskulla wrote:I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?
Grey Templar wrote:Another problem is that Cypher is clearly a seperate individual.
they are both in the same room at the same time throughout the DAHH books.
Cypher does seem to take a neutral stance during the rebellion, as is his mysterious nature.
I'm pretty sure that Cypher is actually a title the DAHH books, and that when you accept it your old name is to be forgotten when you take the title, but I think I packed the books away so I'm going to have trouble substantiating that.
EDIT: The OP covers this...the Cypher in the HH novels is not necessarily the same as the Cypher in current day.
I'm also pretty sure that the Cypher in the HH books is an (much) older man
The first Cypher we're introduced to is an older man, yes.
The one that he chooses to follow him before he wanders off into the wilderness on one last great hunt is a younger man and one of the leftovers from the knights that the Order wiped out.
Darthslowe wrote:First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos.
Well apart from all the Fallen that do follow chaos.
Which we don't actually have numbers on how many Fallen fell or how many of those Fallen later turned to Chaos.
Right, as of now according to "Fallen Angels", the Dark Angels who 'become the Fallen' haven't been seduced by Chaos. Luther has been seemingly tainted, but hasn't declared himself or Caliban for Horus or Chaos.
They've simply declared that Caliban is seceding from the Imperium of Man.
Darthslowe wrote:First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos.
Well apart from all the Fallen that do follow chaos.
Which we don't actually have numbers on how many Fallen fell or how many of those Fallen later turned to Chaos.
Right, as of now according to "Fallen Angels", the Dark Angels who 'become the Fallen' haven't been seduced by Chaos. Luther has been seemingly tainted, but hasn't declared himself or Caliban for Horus or Chaos.
They've simply declared that Caliban is seceding from the Imperium of Man.
I was pointing out that the blanket statement is incorrect as fluff has clearly said that some Fallen had turned to chaos.
Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther
According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).
Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther
According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).
Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther
According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).
And to the successor chapters of the Unforgiven?
Nope, there's only one Supreme Grand Master. The chapter masters of the Unforgiven are just Grand Masters. The Dark Angels legion stopped existing in name only. Their chapter master is still in charge of all the other successor chapters.
Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther
According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).
And to the successor chapters of the Unforgiven?
Nope, there's only one Supreme Grand Master. The chapter masters of the Unforgiven are just Grand Masters. The Dark Angels legion stopped existing in name only. Their chapter master is still in charge of all the other successor chapters.
Right, currently Azrael. Think of the other Unforgiven as subsidiaries of the Dark Angels. They do their own thing, but ultimately Azrael still is technically the leader of them all.
I think the OP and current fluff might both be correct. Cypher could be simply a projection of the Lion's guilt over the failure of his Legion (and of his own failure). He has sent it back to Terra to ask for forgiveness, since he is unable to go himself.
Magister187 wrote:I think the OP and current fluff might both be correct. Cypher could be simply a projection of the Lion's guilt over the failure of his Legion (and of his own failure). He has sent it back to Terra to ask for forgiveness, since he is unable to go himself.
In current fluff the OP cannot be correct, although your idea maybe correct, if he is a projection he still wouldn't actually be the lion
How in the name of all that's logical or sane Luther is still alive is a mystery to me. Maybe they put him in stasis, revive him and try to make him repent then toss him back in the freezer afterwards?
Sounds plausible to me - good explanation, actually!
Toastedandy wrote:Doesn't Cypher only have 2 wounds? mystery solved.
Lol awesome comment.
Lots of good points but it is it plausible Cypher might actually be Luther? The Lion is at the bottom of the rock. I always had though that Cypher was supposed to kinda represent Luther as an escaped version from the rock as him.
Asherian Command wrote:We are never given the lions actual height..... He was the same size as Leman Russ...... Which was pretty short.
This is from HH novels?
deffskulla wrote:I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?
Wait wasn't Cypher the last knight of lupus and Jhonson gave him the rank of Cypher ? And then Luther and Cypher were sent back to caliban because Jhonson knew the imperium would blow it up one day anyway ? I don't think Cypher is Jhonson but I do think he knows somthing the rest of us don't.
moonshine wrote:Wait wasn't Cypher the last knight of lupus and Jhonson gave him the rank of Cypher ? And then Luther and Cypher were sent back to caliban because Jhonson knew the imperium would blow it up one day anyway ? I don't think Cypher is Jhonson but I do think he knows somthing the rest of us don't.
I agree with you on this. But I do think Cypher may possibly be an escaped version of Luther himself..........
moonshine wrote:Wait wasn't Cypher the last knight of lupus and Jhonson gave him the rank of Cypher ? And then Luther and Cypher were sent back to caliban because Jhonson knew the imperium would blow it up one day anyway ? I don't think Cypher is Jhonson but I do think he knows somthing the rest of us don't.
I agree with you on this. But I do think Cypher may possibly be an escaped version of Luther himself..........
No. Once again:
Luther is contained within The Rock. He is not going anywhere, and he has not left the custody of the Dark Angels since the Fall of Caliban.
Luther enjoys long bloody toture and walks through the torture chamber.
Luther doesn't want to leave he knows (and is right) he commited a sin and should pay for it and all the blood that has been spilled on his account he must be tortured for.
Also I don't know where but Leman Russ is a Midget compared to his wolfguard. The Lion was always described as Russ's equal and rival, so then he would be short.
Luther enjoys long bloody torture and walks through the torture chamber.
Luther doesn't want to leave he knows (and is right) he committed a sin and should pay for it and all the blood that has been spilled on his account he must be tortured for.
You do realize he's not constantly tortured or anything, right? The Master of the Dark Angels and his most trusted individuals(usually Interrogator-Chaplains) have access to Luther. That's it, and considering most of those individuals are constantly at war or leading some kind of deployment means it's a rare thing that Luther gets tortured or interrogated.
Usually when it happens, there's been some kind of rippling amongst the Librarians or there's been confirmed sightings of Cypher.
Also I don't know where but Leman Russ is a midget compared to his Wolf Guard. The Lion was always described as Russ' equal and rival, so then he would be short.
Er, what?
I have no clue where you get this idea that Leman Russ is a "midget compared to his Wolf Guard". Him and The Lion are both head and shoulders above their progeny, like pretty much every Primarch.
It's also something where you need to work on comprehension, because The Lion was "always described as Russ' equal" when it came to their skill at single combat. They had a relatively friendly rivalry for the most part, highlighted with a few times where they actually came to blows.
Luther enjoys long bloody torture and walks through the torture chamber.
Luther doesn't want to leave he knows (and is right) he committed a sin and should pay for it and all the blood that has been spilled on his account he must be tortured for.
You do realize he's not constantly tortured or anything, right? The Master of the Dark Angels and his most trusted individuals(usually Interrogator-Chaplains) have access to Luther. That's it, and considering most of those individuals are constantly at war or leading some kind of deployment means it's a rare thing that Luther gets tortured or interrogated.
Usually when it happens, there's been some kind of rippling amongst the Librarians or there's been confirmed sightings of Cypher.
Also I don't know where but Leman Russ is a midget compared to his Wolf Guard. The Lion was always described as Russ' equal and rival, so then he would be short.
Er, what?
I have no clue where you get this idea that Leman Russ is a "midget compared to his Wolf Guard". Him and The Lion are both head and shoulders above their progeny, like pretty much every Primarch.
It's also something where you need to work on comprehension, because The Lion was "always described as Russ' equal" when it came to their skill at single combat. They had a relatively friendly rivalry for the most part, highlighted with a few times where they actually came to blows.
eh. okay. I follow that, i always pictured leman as a midget compared to his wolfguard.
Cypher is the Lord Cypher, the last survivor of the Knights of Lupus.
The Lion is in the Rock.
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Kanluwen wrote:It's also something where you need to work on comprehension, because The Lion was "always described as Russ' equal" when it came to their skill at single combat. They had a relatively friendly rivalry for the most part, highlighted with a few times where they actually came to blows.
There was nothing "friendly" about the Lion, ever. At one point the Wolves and Angels were supposed to collaborate on some battle (don't remember the gritty details), but the Angels struck first and took care of it before the Wolves had a chance. Russ was all pissed about having his "chance at glory" stolen, so he started a tussle with the Lion. They fought for a few days, until Russ realized he was being a big baby and started laughing about it. The Lion, always serious, took this chance to lay him the feth out and peaced out. The Wolves and Angels have been rivals ever since. Again, there's nothing friendly about it.
A very interesting theory, but allow me to throw a wrench in your works.
There hasn't been real solid fluff on the Primarchs in a long time. Sure, the Lion is in the Rock, Russ is in the Warp, Mortarion got somehow killed by a guy with a silver stick.
But the thing is, and this hurts me as much as it hurts all of you, we knowGW would never move the fluff forward enough to actually give us an answer to this.
I love the 40k fluff, it's one of the main reasons I'm still playing. But it seems a bit redundant, to talk about something that probably will never be resolved.
Yeah but I can see why they decided not to advance it. All the fluff points too somthing big happening near the end of the 41st milenium. Also they might not advance the fluff but they do somtimes tell us more about what has happened.
Unless they've changed it, Russ and The Lion, though they dueled several times in their lives, came to a grudging respect for one another, and their respective Legions (and subsequent Chapters) have fought side-by-side several times in the centuries since then. Though some do still hold honor duels and the like, there's been no conclusive winner between them.
Jimsolo wrote:The only witnesses to El'Jonson's big nap are the Watchers in the Dark. And really, how far can you trust a bunch of dirty aliens?
The watchers did not tell us though, seeing as they do not speak. It is fact as described by GW not propaganda fluff
the way you describe it is comparable to this:
a line in a book: ' the wolf prowelled the dark cave as bats flew overhead'
you 'well only the bats have told me that the wolf is there, so i don't believe it'
Also we hae no idea what the watchers in the dark are, they are postulated to be many things. Being aliens is just one and not the most favoured one at that.
BluntmanDC wrote:
Also we hae no idea what the watchers in the dark are, they are postulated to be many things. Being aliens is just one and not the most favoured one at that.
They're daemons. Descent of Angels makes that clear. They just aren't chaos daemons.
BluntmanDC wrote:
Also we hae no idea what the watchers in the dark are, they are postulated to be many things. Being aliens is just one and not the most favoured one at that.
They're daemons. Descent of Angels makes that clear. They just aren't chaos daemons.
Anung Un Rama wrote: Mortarion got somehow killed by a guy with a silver stick.
Same way Angron gets killed every thousand years, so don't act like it's unprecedented.
Also, he's a daemon. He doesn't get killed, he gets sent home.
Difference between the two:
Angron rolls with a posse of a score of Bloodthirsters and takes out almost an entire company of Grey Knights on his way out.
Montarion gets curb-stomped by a newb on his first mission.
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DarknessEternal wrote:
They're daemons. Descent of Angels makes that clear. They just aren't chaos daemons.
This is nonsense, what book are you reading? They are definitely not daemons, they are a Xenos race watching over the Chaos taint on Corriban. Also, either in Descent or Fallen, they describe themselves as a Cabal, capitalized. So they are probably part of the same group that contacted the Alpha Legion.
It is an interesting concept and with as secretive as the DA are this would be the ultimate secret that Liono is truly not in the rock........I like it........fits with their lore........truly though not sure about him really being cypher but its one hell of a concept........him being cypher and playing weak......make sense in the fact he would have a target on his head like none other
Angron rolls with a posse of a score of Bloodthirsters and takes out almost an entire company of Grey Knights on his way out.
Montarion gets curb-stomped by a newb on his first mission.
What books are you refering too? : )
The First War of Armageddon and the Grey Knights book respectively.
Angron attacks Armageddon with a host of World Eaters and Khorne Daemons. He has a personal guard of Bloodthirsters. About 200 Grey Knights are killed to banish him for 101 years.
Mortarion is knocked down by Draigo, a regular Grey Knight, who carves the previous Supreme Grand Master's name into the Daemon Primarchs heart after getting a jump on his entire retinue of likely Plague marines and Plaguebearers and Great Unclean Ones.
Asherian Command wrote:We are never given the lions actual height..... He was the same size as Leman Russ...... Which was pretty short.
This is from HH novels?
deffskulla wrote:I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?
LakotaWolf wrote:It is an interesting concept and with as secretive as the DA are this would be the ultimate secret that Liono is truly not in the rock........I like it........fits with their lore........truly though not sure about him really being cypher but its one hell of a concept........him being cypher and playing weak......make sense in the fact he would have a target on his head like none other
Interesting? Maybe, but completely disconnected from the facts as given. We are aware of the location of the Lion as an omniscient third-party, we meet the character of Lord Cypher who loves his pistols in the HH books. Lionel is not Cypher.
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iproxtaco wrote:
Angron attacks Armageddon with a host of World Eaters and Khorne Daemons. He has a personal guard of Bloodthirsters. About 200 Grey Knights are killed to banish him for 101 years. .
It was 100, and 95 perished. Remember, this is back when Grey Knights were these uber paragons that were only seen a squad of terminators at a time, teleported into the heart of the daemonic corruption, leaving the rhino driving and whatnot to regular Astartes. You know, before Matthew came and fethed it all up.
LakotaWolf wrote:It is an interesting concept and with as secretive as the DA are this would be the ultimate secret that Lion is truly not in the rock........I like it........fits with their lore........truly though not sure about him really being cypher but its one hell of a concept........him being cypher and playing weak......make sense in the fact he would have a target on his head like none other
Interesting? Maybe, but completely disconnected from the facts as given. We are aware of the location of the Lion as an omniscient third-party, we meet the character of Lord Cypher who loves his pistols in the HH books. Lionel is not Cypher.
I'm not sure why the Lion would "have a target on his head like none other". Nobody knows about the Dark Angels' Big Secret.
iproxtaco wrote:
Angron attacks Armageddon with a host of World Eaters and Khorne Daemons. He has a personal guard of Bloodthirsters. About 200 Grey Knights are killed to banish him for 101 years. .
It was 100, and 95 perished. Remember, this is back when Grey Knights were these uber paragons that were only seen a squad of terminators at a time, teleported into the heart of the daemonic corruption, leaving the rhino driving and whatnot to regular Astartes. You know, before Matthew came and fethed it all up.
The Rhino Driving and Power Armored Grey Knights came before Ward was even at GW. He continued the theme, likely because he was told to by people above his head.
PAGK, Rhinos, etc is the result of Andy Chambers, Graham McNeill, and Phil Kelly.
Alan Merrett is the head of GW's IP, meaning he's the one in charge of overseeing how it's distributed/handled(from what I've been given to understand at least).
Lindsey Priestly has been mentioned multiple times by various authors as "being in charge of canon".
Oh good, now we know who to blame. Are the Priestleys going through a nasty divorce and she's trying to get back at him by letting people gak all over his original idea?
As opposed to Horus who was a petulant child who "didn't want the responsibility he was given", Peturabo who was apparently 'jealous' of Rogal Dorn's fame, or Lorgar who 'didn't want to be a warrior'?
I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Perturabo was just bitter because he seemed to get all the ignoble boring jobs, until he and his warriors just began to relish killing stuff.
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Wait, what? Are you referring to the fact that he sent Luther and them back to Caliban?
Because we do not actually KNOW it was "betrayal". That's the excuse the Fallen use to justify their reason for seceding from the Imperium.
At worst, it was The Lion sending the individual who would have allowed him to be assassinated(Luther) back to Caliban and those who 'knew' Luther's plan being sent back as well.
At best, it was The Lion sending the individual he trusted the most back to indoctrinate the Legion's new recruits in The Mysteries of the Order and train them in the same way that The Lion was.
in the DA codex Jonson disappeared when Caliban was destroyed. How can some say he is in the rock? What is that reference and is it black library or actual canon?
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Where the hell is this coming from? The 'summoning daemons' bit is speculation. The Dark Angels and Calibanite insurgency were under the impression that the Imperials were 'trying to summon something from beyond'--although Zahariel makes a statement that amounts to 'I knew that it was a lie. They weren't trying to summon it...they were trying to banish it.'
There's also the fact that Caliban apparently was just rife with corruption, period.
DarknessEternal wrote:He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
That was one guy, and one guy only, who eventually came to see the Imperium as invaders and sorcerers. The Lion betrayed pretty much the entirety of his original knightly order, denying them the honor of warriors and sentencing them to a baby-sitting job. And even when they faithfully followed his orders to the letter (creating the most efficient Astartes training regimen... from initiate to battle-ready in 2 years, with 98% implant success ratio) for half a century, he didn't even bother to read their reports. He deserved to get his ass ventilated.
DarknessEternal wrote:He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
That was one guy, and one guy only, who eventually came to see the Imperium as invaders and sorcerers. The Lion betrayed pretty much the entirety of his original knightly order, denying them the honor of warriors and sentencing them to a baby-sitting job. And even when they faithfully followed his orders to the letter (creating the most efficient Astartes training regimen... from initiate to battle-ready in 2 years, with 98% implant success ratio) for half a century, he didn't even bother to read their reports. He deserved to get his ass ventilated.
Aswell as being over they're quota for supplies (even though that did mean dipping into their own supplies) but Jhonson did not know that. Jhonson should have at least replied to the fact he was getting more ammo than he needed.
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Wait, what? Are you referring to the fact that he sent Luther and them back to Caliban?
Because we do not actually KNOW it was "betrayal". That's the excuse the Fallen use to justify their reason for seceding from the Imperium.
At worst, it was The Lion sending the individual who would have allowed him to be assassinated(Luther) back to Caliban and those who 'knew' Luther's plan being sent back as well.
At best, it was The Lion sending the individual he trusted the most back to indoctrinate the Legion's new recruits in The Mysteries of the Order and train them in the same way that The Lion was.
"Those who knew"? The only other person to know of Luther's momentary lapse of reason is that librarian guy, who learned of it right when Luther regained his senses. The "best" scenario can't be the case, because even the Lion would know that denying these warriors the glory of battle so they can baby-sit newbs is the worst possible punishment. And before they were sent back, the librarian turned and saw the Lion looking at all of them with rank suspicion. My opinion is that Luther was freaked out by the Daemon they encountered, and in his usual "I am R2D2" manner of thinking, decided that since Calaban has a similar taint on its surface, the Calaban knights may have a 0.001% greater chance of being corrupted by Chaos, therefore none of them could be trusted. He made a decision that they may be a liability, consigned them to Calaban, and forgot all about them. It was a betrayal in every sense of the word.
Then, of course, there's the idiocy of nominating the last survivor of the Knights of Lupus to be the Lord Cypher. Oh, and giving Perturabo the siege weapons that could crack the Palace walls because he was more concerned about who would be Warmaster after Horus than winning the war. Durpaderp.
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Wait, what? Are you referring to the fact that he sent Luther and them back to Caliban?
Because we do not actually KNOW it was "betrayal". That's the excuse the Fallen use to justify their reason for seceding from the Imperium.
At worst, it was The Lion sending the individual who would have allowed him to be assassinated(Luther) back to Caliban and those who 'knew' Luther's plan being sent back as well.
At best, it was The Lion sending the individual he trusted the most back to indoctrinate the Legion's new recruits in The Mysteries of the Order and train them in the same way that The Lion was.
"Those who knew"? The only other person to know of Luther's momentary lapse of reason is that librarian guy, who learned of it right when Luther regained his senses.
Actually, Zahariel is what pushed Luther to NOT allow it to happen.
The "best" scenario can't be the case, because even the Lion would know that denying these warriors the glory of battle so they can baby-sit newbs is the worst possible punishment.
...Really? He sent Zahariel--who he had confided in and trusted--back with Luther--the man who'd raised and tutored him about the importance of tradition.
And before they were sent back, the librarian turned and saw the Lion looking at all of them with rank suspicion. My opinion is that Luther was freaked out by the Daemon they encountered, and in his usual "I am R2D2" manner of thinking, decided that since Caliban has a similar taint on its surface, the Caliban knights may have a 0.001% greater chance of being corrupted by Chaos, therefore none of them could be trusted. He made a decision that they may be a liability, consigned them to Caliban, and forgot all about them. It was a betrayal in every sense of the word.
I think you're confusing Luther with The Lion.
The Lion, like all the Primarchs, was aware of the things that lurk in the Empyrean.
Zahariel never 'sees' anything about the Lion looking at them with suspicion. There's mention of 'regret', but that's what happens when you send your trusted confidants and mentors away from the warzone to ensure the troops coming are to the same caliber as the ones you've lost. This garbage about 'forgetting all about them' as well is ridiculous, and is Luther's argument towards those who were sent back with him.
Also: you have to remember that Luther? Luther was never given the full Astartes treatment. He was getting on in age, and was also never given the same indoctrination the rest of the Astartes were. He remained the same individual he was when he saved The Lion from a hunter, but he also was getting old and tired of fighting/crusading "in the name of an Empire that cared not for him and ruined the world he fought so hard to save."
Then, of course, there's the idiocy of nominating the last survivor of the Knights of Lupus to be the Lord Cypher.
The Lord Cypher nominated his Successor, not the Master of the Order.
Oh, and giving Perturabo the siege weapons that could crack the Palace walls because he was more concerned about who would be Warmaster after Horus than winning the war. Durpaderp.
Perturabo hadn't declared himself 'for Horus' yet. He used the weapons that The Lion gave him on Istvaan, yes. That doesn't mean The Lion knew he was going to, even if he was politicking to get Perturabo to back him.
Perturabo hadn't declared himself 'for Horus' yet. He used the weapons that The Lion gave him on Istvaan, yes. That doesn't mean The Lion knew he was going to, even if he was politicking to get Perturabo to back him.
And yet in Age of Darkness, he suspects Roubote of having Imperial ambitions simply because Roubote didn't add "pretty please with a cherry on top" to his summons. Hmm, yes, suspect the guy who has always been a paragon of warriors and administrators, and second only to Horus in the Emperor's favor. Don't suspect the guy who they refer to as "our bitter brother" who has been disaffected for centuries (as a contrast, Guilliman suspected even that flower-child Vulkan and designed appropriate contingencies). Sure, you can attribute this to his complete inability to gauge a person's motivations/feelings/loyalties, but that's a pretty horrendous flaw to have for someone who wants to be second in command in the entire Imperium. Surely someone who is so smart would realize that you can't lead people if you can't relate to them or understand them? All his prodigious powers of logical thinking are for naught, because he wastes them trying to advance his own station and pouting over seeming disrespect from other Primarchs.
The Lion, like all the Primarchs, was aware of the things that lurk in the Empyrean.
This is obviously false, since many Primarchs thought the "things that lurk in the Empyrean" are peculiar Xenos. None of them were aware of the true nature of these beings. Even Magnus only had the most rudimentary understanding, and he spent half his time walking in the Warp.
Zahariel never 'sees' anything about the Lion looking at them with suspicion.
Spoiler:
As they boarded the Stormbirds, Zahariel felt a strange sensation of unease along his spine, and he turned to discover its source. Lion El’Jonson was looking straight at him.
Granted, it doesn't spell out suspicion, but this is right after their encounter with the Daemon and right before their exile. Whatever that look meant, it certainly wasn't a positive thing.
There's mention of 'regret', but that's what happens when you send your trusted confidants and mentors away from the warzone to ensure the troops coming are to the same caliber as the ones you've lost. This garbage about 'forgetting all about them' as well is ridiculous, and is Luther's argument towards those who were sent back with him.
The Lion never expresses regret about anything, ever. In Fallen Angels, we learn the following:
Spoiler:
The departure of Luther and the rest had been sudden, almost businesslike, and at the time Nemiel had assumed, like everyone
else, that they would be back with the fleet before long. But Jonson had never spoken of them again - he no longer even read the regular
dispatches from Caliban, relegating that task to members of his staff. Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the
primarch's mind, and as the years lengthened into decades, rumour and speculation had begun to circulate through the ranks. ... Primarch Jonson
made no attempt to address anyof the rumours, and over time they were forgotten. No one spoke of the exiles much any more, except as a
cautionary tale to new initiates: once you fell from grace with Lion El'Jonson, you were never likely to rise again.
Also: you have to remember that Luther? Luther was never given the full Astartes treatment. He was getting on in age, and was also never given the same indoctrination the rest of the Astartes were. He remained the same individual he was when he saved The Lion from a hunter, but he also was getting old and tired of fighting/crusading "in the name of an Empire that cared not for him and ruined the world he fought so hard to save."
None of the Dark Angels were indoctrinated, they all retained their memories and personalities from before their Astartification (is that a word?). Also in Fallen Angels, we are told this:
Spoiler:
Little more than a week after being deployed on their first campaign, Zahariel and more than five hundred of his brothers - over half a chapter -
discovered they had been dismissed.
Yes, less than a week of "fighting/crusading" is totally exhausting for a man who was practically the equal of the Lion in accomplishments even before he was enhanced out the wazoo.
The Lord Cypher nominated his Successor, not the Master of the Order.
From Fallen Angels:
Spoiler:
When Lion El'Jonson became Grand Master of the Order it had been expected that he would name Master Remiel to the
position; instead, he raised up a little-known knight younger than Luther or many other high-ranking peers.
You know what, this is a waste of time, since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about/are seeing things through your own personal filter. I suggest you actually read the books we're discussing next time.
Perturabo hadn't declared himself 'for Horus' yet. He used the weapons that The Lion gave him on Istvaan, yes. That doesn't mean The Lion knew he was going to, even if he was politicking to get Perturabo to back him.
And yet in Age of Darkness, he suspects Roubote of having Imperial ambitions simply because Roubote didn't add "pretty please with a cherry on top" to his summons. Hmm, yes, suspect the guy who has always been a paragon of warriors and administrators, and second only to Horus in the Emperor's favor. Don't suspect the guy who they refer to as "our bitter brother" who has been disaffected for centuries (as a contrast, Guilliman suspected even that flower-child Vulkan and designed appropriate contingencies). Sure, you can attribute this to his complete inability to gauge a person's motivations/feelings/loyalties, but that's a pretty horrendous flaw to have for someone who wants to be second in command in the entire Imperium. Surely someone who is so smart would realize that you can't lead people if you can't relate to them or understand them? All his prodigious powers of logical thinking are for naught, because he wastes them trying to advance his own station and pouting over seeming disrespect from other Primarchs.
The reason there was 'such emphasis' placed in Age of Darkness is that Age of Darkness takes place after Istvaan.
Istvaan changed everything in terms of the relationships between the Astartes and the Primarchs. Before then, any 'rivalry' was completely symbolic at best, with no real violence escalating.
The Lion, like all the Primarchs, was aware of the things that lurk in the Empyrean.
This is obviously false, since many Primarchs thought the "things that lurk in the Empyrean" are peculiar Xenos. None of them were aware of the true nature of these beings. Even Magnus only had the most rudimentary understanding, and he spent half his time walking in the Warp.
That's suspect, because Horus makes mention of them as 'peculiar Xenos'.
They refuse to use the term 'daemon' because of the idea that there has to be a rational explanation. That doesn't mean they're not aware of what it might truly be.
Zahariel never 'sees' anything about the Lion looking at them with suspicion.
Spoiler:
As they boarded the Stormbirds, Zahariel felt a strange sensation of unease along his spine, and he turned to discover its source. Lion El’Jonson was looking straight at him.
Granted, it doesn't spell out suspicion, but this is right after their encounter with the Daemon and right before their exile. Whatever that look meant, it certainly wasn't a positive thing.
It spells out nothing, outside of Zahariel perhaps having some form of premonition. That's not entirely unheard of.
There's mention of 'regret', but that's what happens when you send your trusted confidants and mentors away from the warzone to ensure the troops coming are to the same caliber as the ones you've lost. This garbage about 'forgetting all about them' as well is ridiculous, and is Luther's argument towards those who were sent back with him.
The Lion never expresses regret about anything, ever. In Fallen Angels, we learn the following:
Spoiler:
The departure of Luther and the rest had been sudden, almost businesslike, and at the time Nemiel had assumed, like everyone
else, that they would be back with the fleet before long. But Jonson had never spoken of them again - he no longer even read the regular
dispatches from Caliban, relegating that task to members of his staff. Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the
primarch's mind, and as the years lengthened into decades, rumour and speculation had begun to circulate through the ranks. ... Primarch Jonson
made no attempt to address anyof the rumours, and over time they were forgotten. No one spoke of the exiles much any more, except as a
cautionary tale to new initiates: once you fell from grace with Lion El'Jonson, you were never likely to rise again.
Also: you have to remember that Luther? Luther was never given the full Astartes treatment. He was getting on in age, and was also never given the same indoctrination the rest of the Astartes were. He remained the same individual he was when he saved The Lion from a hunter, but he also was getting old and tired of fighting/crusading "in the name of an Empire that cared not for him and ruined the world he fought so hard to save."
None of the Dark Angels were indoctrinated, they all retained their memories and personalities from before their Astartification (is that a word?). Also in Fallen Angels, we are told this:
Spoiler:
Little more than a week after being deployed on their first campaign, Zahariel and more than five hundred of his brothers - over half a chapter -
discovered they had been dismissed.
Yes, less than a week of "fighting/crusading" is totally exhausting for a man who was practically the equal of the Lion in accomplishments even before he was enhanced out the wazoo.
...They were not deployed on their "first campaign". They had been in quite a bit more prior.
The Lord Cypher nominated his Successor, not the Master of the Order.
From Fallen Angels:
Spoiler:
When Lion El'Jonson became Grand Master of the Order it had been expected that he would name Master Remiel to the
position; instead, he raised up a little-known knight younger than Luther or many other high-ranking peers.
You know what, this is a waste of time, since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about/are seeing things through your own personal filter. I suggest you actually read the books we're discussing next time.
And I'd suggest you do the same, but we know that's not going to happen.
LOL, hilarious. I provide citations from the book that completely contradict your statements (everything in the spoiler sections are DIRECT VERBATIM QUOTES from the books), and the best you can do is "nu uh, I know you are, but what am I!"?
Seriously though just not saying it because Im an avid Dark Angel player and fan the Lions fluff is definitely in my top 3 compared to the other primarchs. Magnus and Alpharius / Omegon are my favs for sure though.
No lion el'jonson cant be cypher remember that lion is a primarch and that primarchs are of super human height and that if lion had turned to chaos it is more than likely that his chapter would have fallen to chaos too but the dark angels still fight for redemption loyal to they're emperor, cypher is just a fallen angel in search for lions sword shards to re forge the lion's sword to present to the emperor again one day..Also on siege of Vraks the dark angels sent over half they're chapters worth of help to the death korp and if the dark angels were secretively with chaos they wouldn't make such a sacrifice.
Nice use of punctuation. Those on Caliban may or may not have fallen to Chaos, but it seems unlikely given the way the HH novels are going at the moment. Apart from Luther's weird tatoos.
If it's the same Cypher from that time, I would be suspicious of whatever he plans to do with the Lion Sword, which he already has.
I thought Luthor was in the Rock and waiting for the Lion to return because the Chaos Gods were mad that Luthor had faileid to kill the Lion (even though he wasn't their servant) and ripped the Warp and El'Johnson went flying out into space?
Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:I thought Luthor was in the Rock and waiting for the Lion to return because the Chaos Gods were mad that Luthor had faileid to kill the Lion (even though he wasn't their servant) and ripped the Warp and El'Johnson went flying out into space?
It is known for a fact that the Lion is sleeping in the Rock, guarded by the Watchers.
Luthor is in the Rock as a prisoner of the DAs, who are holding him in stasis(occasionally bringing him out to beat him up) to wait for the Lion to return.
the DA chapter doesn't know the Lion is in the Rock, but we, the all-most all-knowing 3rd party, know this.
Oh, I swear in a summary or something he got shot into Space and Luthor is waiting for him to return to the Rock so he can like apologize or something like that and the Interrogator Chaplains can't break him to admit his heresy but they, uhhh how do I put this? um, Mindraped him I guess? lol.
The Dark Angels are my fav Space Marine Chapter and I would like to know if you could point me in the right direction to find this info.
Lions body was recovered by the watchers in the dark and now resides in the rock probably in stasis like Guilliman or possibly some kind of coma. Cypher is just a normal marine as anyone who has ever seen him would have noticed if he was the size of a primarch. Since cypher is actually a title not a name it is possible that one or more fallen have taken on the quest after one dies.
Cypher was once an important part of life on Caliban, but I cant remember what he did. He then went heretic and now everytime he is caught and put in the rock he somehow manages to escape. The Lion, however was not there when his legion turned heretic and was ever loyal to the Emperor.
Grey Templar wrote:now, wasn't it said in Angels of Darkness that Luther is in the rock too?
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther and is trying to break him or force him to repent. He refuses, saying that the Lion will one day return and forgive him.
How in the name of all that's logical or sane Luther is still alive is a mystery to me. Maybe they put him in stasis, revive him and try to make him repent then toss him back in the freezer afterwards?
Actually, it's stated in the first HH novel (I think it was Horus Rising) that a Space Marine can live forever. He wion't because of fighting, but he can. So, as long as an apothecary sees him after being tortured, what's to prevent him still being alive.
remember that Luthor isn't a 100% Astartes. He was too old to recieve implants, but was instead given heavy augmentation to be almost the equivilant of an Astartes in strength and physical abilities. Many of the Fallen are like this. while they wear PA, their bodies retain proportions closer to a human then a Space Marine.
Grey Templar wrote:remember that Luthor isn't a 100% Astartes. He was too old to recieve implants, but was instead given heavy augmentation to be almost the equivilant of an Astartes in strength and physical abilities. Many of the Fallen are like this. while they wear PA, their bodies retain proportions closer to a human then a Space Marine.
True, but 41st millinium astartes arent pure either. I think luther could've lived that long with junevat works and/or stasis.
some int he first couple of pages said the the lord cypher was neutral.
I don't think he was since in fallen angels, he shots israfael (libby from terra) that was trying to stop luther from using the chaos powers.
Also, Israfael does not die. I jsut finished Fallen angels and luther revive him using (what I guess would be enunciation sicne he apparently spoke words that revived Zahariel and normal chaos rituals requires wards and sacrifices). Luther then ask Zahariel if he knows the real name of Ouroboros and Zahariel says he does not while the truth is he does. He is not possesed by a deamon as far as the book goes.
No 3rd book, yet. You can probably bet there will be, we still need Caliban to get nuked. although that doesn't happen until around the Battle for Terra so we are probably waiting for everyone to catch up.
Ahhhhhh its quite interesting and entertaining to read all these theories and comments from 12 years ago, now that the Lion has actually returned to the Galaxy.
