...attacked Sol System in the past 10.000 years?
And I mean literary attacked, not like Necron "hit and be vaporized".
Why Orks or Dark Eldar or Chaos Crusade has not been pointed there?
Revenent Reiko wrote:because its the most heavily defended System in the IoM.
/thread
More the reason for Orks to launch a WARGHHHHH there and for Dark Eldar to sucsefully raid, or for Chaos Crusade... never mind Chaos they are still stuck at Cadia
An Ork Waaagh would first have to travel from whatever system they originate in, like, say, the 'Undred 'Undred Teef of the Koronus Expanse, travel all through space to the Sol system, most likely encountering stiff resistance along the way, remain focused on the ultimate goal, not suffer any significant internal strife, and then attack the most heavily-defended system in Imperial space.
Psienesis wrote:An Ork Waaagh would first have to travel from whatever system they originate in, like, say, the 'Undred 'Undred Teef of the Koronus Expanse, travel all through space to the Sol system, most likely encountering stiff resistance along the way, remain focused on the ultimate goal, not suffer any significant internal strife, and then attack the most heavily-defended system in Imperial space.
Not gonna happen.
You hummie ain't seein it right ya git! All dat defences aint ganna deter da boyz of ol' Gazzy and Iz 'Attle Waggon spam list all painted up in da red stuffz. We Iz even paint our bootz red to make dem fasta too!
So you hummie don give da boyz no lip, or we'l come ova dar and give you a good stomin!
Kroothawk wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Brother Coa is not a human but a sophisticated spambot drowning Dakka with random question threads.
Said by the man who is not Human anymore...
And since this is 40k site, and I can ask anything I want about 40k, I don't see what the problem is?
And this question is quite interesting. Enemies of man are known to hit hard targets ( Caida, Armageddon, Macragge... ), why not Terra all this millenia?
I don't think any faction currently has the power to break through the system's defences. If the Orks could organize a massive Waaaaaagh! they could do it, but it would take more organization than even Ghazzy managed to get. If GW ever advanced the story to the point where Necrons started waking up en masse, they could probably do it also.
You know...he probably did taste like ice cream back when the Imperium was young...but now that hes a writhing carcass of energy...I'm not so sure he tastes that good
LumenPraebeo wrote:You know...he probably did taste like ice cream back when the Imperium was young...but now that hes a writhing carcass of energy...I'm not so sure he tastes that good
Fine, we'll package some... hummus! flavoured ice cream as, "New God-Emperor-flavoured ice cream," and then when everybody hates it, we'll bring back, "God-Emperor Classic!" and make BILLIONS! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!
I don't think many people realize just how fortified Terra is.
you have 2 Space Marine chapters based there(Gks and Imperial Fists),
it has an entire segmentum sized fleet assigned to its defense. Hundreds of Battleships, thousands of cruisers, untold escorts. Massive Space stations in their thousands, ground defenses.
then there is the defense forces of Mars and Saturn. Saturn's navel acadamy produces the finest Captains, Navy ratings, and best trained fleet in the Galaxy.
the the ground forces of the Mechanicus and the Terran PDF. Terras pop is in the hundreds of trillions as the most densly populated planet in the Galaxy. the PDF would match its size.
there is an entire Titan Legion that guards the palace. 2 Warhounds guard the gate into the Throne room.
and the Custodes, all 10,000 of them.
not to mention all the other imperial forces which would rush to the aid of terra in the event of an invasion.
For most forces, they'd have to fight every inch to Sol through some of the most heavily defended systems in the Imperium. Bare in mind that the Segmentum Solar is the most densely populated portion of the Imperium, and every step closer you take towards Holy Terra will have the Imperium resisting more and more strongly.
Even if you just appear in the Sol system you will be greeted by the most strongly defended system in the Imperium. The Adeptus Mechanicus keep the best tech for themselves, and the best ships that the Imperial Navy can offer, don't forget about the Imperial Guard and Skitarii and Titan forces on Mars.
And if you get closer to Terra, then you get the Terran defences themselves.
And this is BEFORE every free regiment, chapter, legion and fleet in the Imperium gets the distress call comes rushing to Terra.
The Necrons dropped 5 Shroud Light Cruisers (a very very piddly little fleet of some of their smallest ships) right through the systems defenses and directly onto Mars. The ships were vaporised during (for 4) and after (for 1) touchdown at the Noctis Labyrinth, which is where the Dragon is holed up. They weren't even caught up with bu the Martian defense ships until they were already in the process of landing, and the Admech are paranoid bunnies with good sensors
They were destroyed at a 'fearfully high cost', after having penetrated all the system's defenses all the way to Mars, and the very formidable planetary defenses of the IOM's main weapons R and D lab, Mars.
As they would have been met and engaged in space if they'd flown in it would seem to indicate that they can pop up without warning anywhere they please.
Now visualize an actual Necron fleet, not an escort squadron, showing up in low Earth orbit, let alone several of them.
Necrons are a bit of a joke on the tabletop, but in the fluff they are scary
Ascalam wrote:The Necrons dropped 5 Shroud Light Cruisers (a very very piddly little fleet of some of their smallest ships) right through the systems defenses and directly onto Mars. The ships were vaporised during (for 4) and after (for 1) touchdown at the Noctis Labyrinth, which is where the Dragon is holed up. They weren't even caught up with bu the Martian defense ships until they were already in the process of landing, and the Admech are paranoid bunnies with good sensors
They were destroyed at a 'fearfully high cost', after having penetrated all the system's defenses all the way to Mars, and the very formidable planetary defenses of the IOM's main weapons R and D lab, Mars.
As they would have been met and engaged in space if they'd flown in it would seem to indicate that they can pop up without warning anywhere they please.
Now visualize an actual Necron fleet, not an escort squadron, showing up in low Earth orbit, let alone several of them.
Necrons are a bit of a joke on the tabletop, but in the fluff they are scary
thats actually accurate for their ships.
in BFG necrons are bloody broken. we are talking like 7th ed Fantesy Deamons broke.
were are doing a campaign and were kicking around the idea of Planetstrike games to resolve invasions, but then realized that Necrons would totally own in space, but wouldn't ever take a planet
I think the OP's point was why not at any point in the last 10k years, presumably at some point in history when Sol was less well defended. Sure its an impenetrable fortress NOW, but how about during the Age of Apostasy, or soon after the HH?
Unfortunately this is one of those questions so open-ended that there can be no proper answer, beyond "GW said so." The siege of terra was supposed to be the biggest battle ever, you'd think at least the orks would gleefully try to crash the party.
To be fair, Sol IS very well-defended, no, the most defended system in the galaxy, the idea of Leviathan actually making it to Terra and eating the Emperor is very implausible.
Unless something insane happens like every Necron in the galaxy getting on their ships and teleporting into Sol happens, who then proceed to free the Void Dragon, Sol is basically impregnable, for now at least. I admit something may happen that changes that, but... That assumes GW will progress the storyline to any signifigant extent.
Materium is diffrent than Immaterium so if he is useless in the Materium and not in the Immaterium. In essence he is all but dead in the materium but willfully alive in the Immaterium.
Now on from that Nids have the greatest chance regardless of the forces. Most likely they will wait until another hive gets closer before attacking enmasse.
But he is still able to manipulate things in the real world, he communicates his will via the Emperor's Tarot for example.
when Guardsmen chant "the Emperor protects" its not just an empty mantra. He does intervene when and where he can. it takes most of his concentration to "Winnow the warp" but some of his conciousness does drift among his subjects and he hears their cries.
But he is still able to manipulate things in the real world, he communicates his will via the Emperor's Tarot for example.
when Guardsmen chant "the Emperor protects" its not just an empty mantra. He does intervene when and where he can. it takes most of his concentration to "Winnow the warp" but some of his conciousness does drift among his subjects and he hears their cries.
True, he can influence the Materium in ways by exerting himself, but not in ways as major as "Make the Tyranids go awak gg."
IIRC he has stopped time once, that being his greatest display of power in the Materium since "dying."
keeping the Astronomican burning is pretty dang important and he isn't going to stop doing it unless something BIG is goind down, like Nids coming to nom his fat arse.
He is far more powerful now then he was in his mortal form(as his powers have less limitations due to being mortal flesh and blood) so he could just up and squash the Nids with one psychic uppercut.
He is the only thing to be able to genuinily threaten the Chaos Gods(him and Emperor 2.0, better known as Draigo) so that is pretty powerful.
if Khorne suddenly decided he wanted Nid skulls and came down to spank the Hive Mind it would be an Epic battle, but one Khorne would probably win. Emperor is = to or greater then Khorne.
The Hive mind is a being of such magnigtude that not only does it control beings that number more than the stars themselves but does this from possibly another galaxy or more away. It also does this with such clarity that it remembers every battle, every hero slain.
Now to add on that the Tyranids still flee from every tomb world they come near. . . .
keeping the Astronomican burning is pretty dang important and he isn't going to stop doing it unless something BIG is goind down, like Nids coming to nom his fat arse.
He is far more powerful now then he was in his mortal form(as his powers have less limitations due to being mortal flesh and blood) so he could just up and squash the Nids with one psychic uppercut.
He is the only thing to be able to genuinily threaten the Chaos Gods(him and Emperor 2.0, better known as Draigo) so that is pretty powerful.
if Khorne suddenly decided he wanted Nid skulls and came down to spank the Hive Mind it would be an Epic battle, but one Khorne would probably win. Emperor is = to or greater then Khorne.
Only Khorne could not do crap to the Hive Mind, because Khorne cannot physically manifest, no Chaos God could.
And IMHO, Khorne is far more powerful than the Hive Mind.
But yes, the Emperor is more powerful... In the Immaterium. Physically, he cannot move, hell, he is rotting. He used to be able to maintain the Astronomicon while walking around, did he not?
OH forgot to add something about the Hive Mind. It has the unique capability of paraih gene and uses it at such strength that it clouds 2-3 solar systems away from its tendrils. The only problem with that is that even though it is strong it does not permantly block the Psyker's power but makes it extremly difficult to channel its power.
Lysenis wrote:OH forgot to add something about the Hive Mind. It has the unique capability of paraih gene and uses it at such strength that it clouds 2-3 solar systems away from its tendrils. The only problem with that is that even though it is strong it does not permantly block the Psyker's power but makes it extremly difficult to channel its power.
Um, what?
It's, uh, not the Pariah Gene, unless Deceiver is responsible for the Tyranids, it cannot be the Pariah Gene.
It is actually different, to an extent, the Shadow in the Warp is more akin to a smothering psychic signal, making accessing the Warp difficult. IIRC, it also can only harm psykers if they try to use any of their powers (Though I could be wrong about this one in particular).
The Pariah Gene, as seeded in humanity, is explicitly anti-Warp. It makes them resistant or immune to the power of the Warp, and can seriously hurt or even kill Psykers with their presence, the most powerful Pariahs/Blanks IIRC can even kill a Greater Daemon in this way.
TBH it is another of those logical flaws in the plot which can only be explained by assuming that rather than being a carefully worked out coherent work, the 40K universe is a munged together lump of semi-random borrowings which have been crudely ret-conned to achieve the situation now in M41.
Yes Blanks can do this but if you read Horus Heresy books like "Thousand Sons" the Pariah gene does block access to the warp over a distance depending on the strength of the gene. The Astronomicons on planets use Psykers to send their signals. So the Shadow of the Warp blocks that.
Please also realize the Genestealers steal the genes of the beings they take over and then pass it on to the Hive fleet that turns them back into biomass and thus back to the Hive Mind. Interesting is it not?
The overall likelyhood that the Tyranids have absorbed at least 1 human that has the Pariah gene is actually quite likely. Sadly 1 is all it would take.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy brings up a valid point again.
Lysenis wrote:Yes Blanks can do this but if you read Horus Heresy books like "Thousand Sons" the Pariah gene does block access to the warp over a distance depending on the strength of the gene. The Astronomicons on planets use Psykers to send their signals. So the Shadow of the Warp blocks that.
Please also realize the Genestealers steal the genes of the beings they take over and then pass it on to the Hive fleet that turns them back into biomass and thus back to the Hive Mind. Interesting is it not?
The overall likelyhood that the Tyranids have absorbed at least 1 human that has the Pariah gene is actually quite likely. Sadly 1 is all it would take.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy brings up a valid point again.
Only the Shadow of the Warp is synonymous with the Tyranids, it has been in existence since they first showed up, and keep in mind the two are fundamentally different in function. It is not merely a matter of distance, it is a matter of function, Shadow in the Warp is smothering psychic signal, Pariah Gene is the anti-psychich, totally.
It is not far-fetched to say the Tyranids could not manipulate the Pariah Gene to their own ends, Necron technology is advanced to a degree beyond anyone else in the galaxy, and this was the work of the Deceiver itself IIRC, a living god for whom the Laws of Physics are not even guidelines.
Also, it kind of is. Pariahs/Blanks are very rare.
I see the Shadow in the Warp as being a powerful psychic signal, rather than a null/pariah.
Pariahs are sinkholes in the warp, the opposite of a psyker.
Tyranids project psychic jamming, which is an overabundance of signals that distort and block any signal trying to get through it.
As an analogy, imagine a radio playing Brahms. Pariahs would cut the cable, shutting off the signal. Nids would project a more powerful signal (lets say a cooking show ) that bleeds into the concert and finally eclipses the signal until the music is buried beneath 'and here's one i made earlier...'
I always thought that, unlike the C'tan, the Hive Mind exists within the Warp, and is thus vulnerable to warp based entities like the Chaos God and the Emperor.
Lysenis wrote:The Hive mind is a being of such magnigtude that not only does it control beings that number more than the stars themselves but does this from possibly another galaxy or more away.
I thought that the whole point of the hive mind was that it was actually a hive mind? You seem to suggest that it is a single entity controlling all of the Tyranids, whereas I always thought that it was an amalgamation of the many different Tyranid organisms. This would make it like a decentralised network, not really exsisting in any one place. The diffenrent levels of synapse creatures simply link the different levels of the network together.
Am I completely wrong in my thinking?
Anyway, on topic, I don't think that much would have a chance if it enterred Sol. The Emperor's own flagship protects it and the moon is basically a giant weapon platform. Sol makes Cadia look like a feral world.
No the Tyranids would lose unless they could muster a fleet that was larger than the system; the Imperial defences are too great and powerful for even a Hive fleet. It would take a while but still the Tyranids would be vaporized, I'd say the Necron fleet would have a slight chance with their powerful ships but still the Imperial defensive force is extremely large and well equipped. I don't know where you get the idea that allot of people believe that the Tyranids would devour the emperor because I've never really seen that many people believe that, It’s not happening until the Tyranids can create a massive fleet and still they'd have extreme difficulty getting past the defence.
A tyranid Hive Fleet about twice the size of Kraken, or alternatively a massive Chaos fleet, entering from above or below the Galactic Plain (or a nearby Warp Rift) could knife down strait on to Terra and distract them badly enough to make the IoM panic and withdraw from hundreds of battles to aid them, making the galaxy much easier to nom. Of course, the attacking fleet would be vapourised quickly, but as a distraction it would work wonders.
Alternatively, the Dragon could wake up, call hundreds of Necron ships to Terra and possibly take it, considering that Mars is hinted to be a tomb world and all casualties could be sent back in to the fight in no time. It would be a very close thing, though.
I personally think the Necron ships that landed on Mars were planning to do just that-be teleported to the tomb complex, be rebuilt and awake the Dragon. Then there would be an epic fight, and one of those Guardians of the Dragon guys who can repair anything with a touch would be called back to Terra and touch the Golden Throne, sealing the rift and allowing the rest of the Emp's soul to return to his body, all the primarches would awake and every major race would converge on Terra with their own aims, causing the most apocalyptic war since the HH. A nerd can dreem...
EDIT: Oh, and who knows what the Shadow in the Warp would do to the Astronomican. The Emporer could have to intervene himself and have a huge psychic battle with the Hive Mind, resulting in critical levels of awesome and a rupture in the very fabric of our own reality.
The Orks don't know where Sol is. Why would they? It's possible that a Waaagh could stumble onto the system, but a single Orkish Waaagh wouldn't have the force needed to truly threaten Terra. Sure, it might make for a couple of good battles, but the Orks would be crushed before too long.
Apparently GW defanged the Tyranids, as they've gone from a limitless, extra-galactic menace incapable of being defeated to a dying race that keeps exhausting itself with fruitless Hive Fleet invasions . The vast majority of the biomass found in Sol is located in the Inner Planets, and I think this fact alone does in the Tyranids. They would make a mad push towards Terra, as it provides them with the greatest feeding grounds, but they wouldn't get past the Imperial Navy. There just don't seem to be any worlds among the outer planets that would enable to Tyranids to get a quick toehold in Sol to sustain the assault.
The military presence in the Sol System outclasses the entire Tau Empire already. Even if the Tau could make it to Sol, it would be their death. Now, if the Tau had 10,000 years of continuous war under their belt, it might make for a more even contest.
Neither the Eldar nor the Dark Eldar are in a position to invade Sol. The Eldar don't have the resources, and the Dark Eldar don't have the motivation.
Necrons seem to be the only force in the galaxy that can deal with the Imperial Navy, so that also means that they're the only Xenos race that could credibly threaten Sol. Once you disable the fleet, you can begin attacking the worlds of the Sol System individually, instead of having to contend with the combined resources of Terra and Mars. Indeed, if you could trap the population of Terra on world and prevent anyone from reaching them, it would be pretty easy to starve that planet to death (since, with a population that large, they absolutely cannot sustain themselves). The only problem with that is the imminent arrival of the rest of the Imperium's armies which would come into the system in order to break the siege.
Why don't the aliens attack Sol? Because even without plot armor, it's a losing prospect.
SkaerKrow wrote:
The military presence in the Sol System outclasses the entire Tau Empire already. Even if the Tau could make it to Sol, it would be their death. Now, if the Tau had 10,000 years of continuous war under their belt, it might make for a more even contest.
I imagine that by the time Tau strike force reach Sol they would accept Imperial Creed
Lysenis wrote:The Hive mind is a being of such magnigtude that not only does it control beings that number more than the stars themselves but does this from possibly another galaxy or more away.
I thought that the whole point of the hive mind was that it was actually a hive mind? You seem to suggest that it is a single entity controlling all of the Tyranids, whereas I always thought that it was an amalgamation of the many different Tyranid organisms. This would make it like a decentralised network, not really exsisting in any one place. The diffenrent levels of synapse creatures simply link the different levels of the network together.
Am I completely wrong in my thinking?
Anyway, on topic, I don't think that much would have a chance if it enterred Sol. The Emperor's own flagship protects it and the moon is basically a giant weapon platform. Sol makes Cadia look like a feral world.
that is exactly how the Hive Mind operates.
if a Hive Fleet loses all its synapse creatures and only a few gaunts are left on some random planet, but they manage to thoroughly infest it. eventually the Hive Mind will remerge in that location due to the concentration of Nids there.
its like a Psychic entity which is connected through the warp and psychically controls the lesser creatures which make up its race.
the Hive Mind is basically a chaos god in its own right as for its massive psychic power and presense. its probably one of Tzeench's creations ultimate chaos which has no greater purpose other then to feed itself.
I think since the crusades were going on, I don't think anything wanted to mess with the system. I mean you have high volumes of Warships and troops flooding the gaxaly. Generally not a good idea to attack where you enemy is the strongest...
If Sol actually was attacked by something serious, I'd not be at all surprised if two or three major craftworlds came to help defend. That is, if the webway have intact tendrils in that direction, of course.
Or they might just watch, with a certain smugness.
Remember that several of the major craftworlds are less than fond of the IOM, and the rest are by and large neutral.
That said, if they did intervene it would likely be decisive, since the last time the IOM attacked a Craftworld they lost an entire sector fleet in the attempt without really doing much to it.
Also, if the golden throne is destroyed, and it is generating the gate to the webway, wouldn't the tunnel collapse? Hard to say, given that they never really go into the how-to on these things..
The Golden Throne ripped a door into the Webway via the Warp. It's already a non-issue for the Eldar/other users of the Webway. The only remaining problem is keeping it closed on the Terra end. If the Eldar were at all concerned with daemons having a static gateway onto Terra, they haven't done much about it.
Also, if the golden throne is destroyed, and it is generating the gate to the webway, wouldn't the tunnel collapse? Hard to say, given that they never really go into the how-to on these things..
the Golden Throne, and the Emperor's royal buttocks, are the only things which are plugging the hole.
if the Golden Throne is wrecked it would open the gateway(which the Emperor is holding shut with his mind)
Why doesn't anyone attack Terra? Let's break it down force-by-force:
Eldar: They certainly could. And, by attacking shipping lanes rather than Sol itself, they could possibly destroy Terra. But, why would they? The IoM is pretty evil (in their view), but they do a good job of keeping the other more evil forces in check.
Dark Eldar: Again, they could. But, why would they? There's much easier slaves to gather from less defended locations.
Orks: They may some day. But, their attacks tend to be rather random. They often times drift along waiting to stumble across a target. If they came across Terra, there would be an epic battle. But, until then, Terra is safe.
Tau: Someday, they may get to that point. But, they're much too far away right now and too focused on expanding their empire into surrounding space to bother going across the Galaxy.
Tyranids: They are on their way. They just haven't gotten to Terra... yet.
Necrons: They certainly could if they wanted to. But, they're still gathering strength. They'll most likely launch an attack when the time is right, if the Nids don't eat it first.
Chaos: They once did. But, then Horus died and Abbadon took over. He's pretty worthless. So, although they'd really like to attack Terra again, they're too incompetent to manage it.
There's not enough Eldar to pose a threat to Sol. Remember, they cannot replenish their numbers very quickly, and lack a centralized system of homeworlds, or even of Craftworlds, to send more troops to the front. In a battle for Sol, the Eldar would have to commit all of their available forces at once, and they'd only get one shot at it. There's no "second wave" for the Eldar in this battle, there's just not enough of them.
Attacking the shipping lanes? Eh, might work, for a bit... but given that the inbound transports are in the Warp until they reach the Sol system, the raiders have very little chance to enjoy long-term success. There's a segmentum's worth of Battlefleet in the Sol System alone... send your transports along a pre-set range of lanes, and have a few battlecruisers just sitting there. When the pirates arrive... it's a pack of raiders versus an entire Imperial Navy battlefleet.
Dark Eldar... much the same problem, with the added problems of infighting and civil war when battles don't go well and some upstart thinks he can run the Kabal better.
Orks... possibly, but the chances of stumbling across a more attractive target first, which causes the Waaagh to stop to fight, and gives rise to challenges to the Waaghboss' rule, means that the Ork forces that do, finally, arrive in Sol space are going to be smaller than they originally set out with, and possibly having internal fights for supremacy, with sub-Bosses not always following the orders of the Waaghboss.
Tau? Sol will go out before they reach the system. There's also just not enough of them, nor do they have the industrial base to produce enough war materials for a battle of this magnitude. If every world in the Tau Empire produces X ships/tanks/whatever, no matter how efficient they are, the Imperium has X*100000 worlds doing the same thing.
Nids: Maybe. Lot of space to fly through, however, meaning that the Imperium can harry the Hive Fleet for centuries before it reaches Sol. Though the Hive Fleet is definitely a threat, doing battle with them in deep space, rather than in biomass-containing systems, can bleed the Hive Fleet dry of resources, to the point that they have to start eating each other in order to repair the Hive Ships. Deathwatch surgical strikes could, supported by the Navy, conceivably cripple the Fleet before the bulk of it reaches the Sol system.
Chaos... yeah Failbaddon. 'Nuff said.
Necrons... who knows? They may not care about Sol at all.
Ascalam wrote:Or they might just watch, with a certain smugness.
Remember that several of the major craftworlds are less than fond of the IOM, and the rest are by and large neutral.
That said, if they did intervene it would likely be decisive, since the last time the IOM attacked a Craftworld they lost an entire sector fleet in the attempt without really doing much to it.
Or they'd watch in shock as the sheer level of defence in the solar system tears whatever's attacking a new, ah, warp rift. If it was Chaos, they might intervene, given that Eldar have chosen to side with humans before in such circumstances.
The Eldar would not let Terra fall, if Terra falls, the Imperium falls, which is largely what keeps the Tyranids, Necrons, Orkz, and Chaos at bay.
Similarly, I have no doubt the Eldar would be willing to help defend Terra against a massive enough force, especially if it was a Necron or Chaos force, the Necrons being their ancient enemies, and Chaos being responsible for their race's decline.
Or they'd watch in shock as the sheer level of defence in the solar system tears whatever's attacking a new, ah, warp rift. If it was Chaos, they might intervene, given that Eldar have chosen to side with humans before in such circumstances.
Or not.
I'm pretty sure that they are aware of the Sol system's defences, after all this time.
It's also mentioned that they have some pretty tasty firepower of their own. They've sent forces larger than their own off limping (or altogether wiped out) for little damage of their own.
If one craftworld and it's attendant ships can wipe out a whole sector fleet (very very large- there are only a half dozen or so Sectors in the IOM) with no real damage to itself imagine what several can do I'm not a rabid Eldar fanboy, but people tend to forget that they can put out some SERIOUS firepower when they feel the need.
That said, the eldar are the least likely to take on the IOM. Not because they couldn't, but because they have no real need to, as the IOM has more or less given up trying to exterminate them wholesale. They are the closest ting the IOM has to a xeno ally.
I wonder if the Imperium's figured out how to power a... whatsit called again... basically, it's a weaponized atomsmasher that takes a single proton and accelerates it to near-light velocities, aimed at the enemy ships. This, for some reason beyond my comprehension, causes it to become the size of a planet. Apparently when this planet-sized object impacts a vessel at .99999~c, even if the ship is structurally perfect and manages to survive, if the artificial gravity has any delay whatsoever in compensating, the crew becomes red jelly on the walls. According to my source, the problem with the whole thing is the power required - roughly the same as our star's entire output.
Wait, this is 40k we're talking about, not real life... Nevermind.
Pouncey wrote: basically, it's a weaponized atomsmasher that takes a single proton and accelerates it to near-light velocities, aimed at the enemy ships.
I think you're having a deficiency with scale if you think that would damage a 40k space vessel.
Ascalam wrote: If one craftworld and it's attendant ships can wipe out a whole sector fleet (very very large- there are only a half dozen or so Sectors in the IOM) with no real damage to itself imagine what several can do I'm not a rabid Eldar fanboy, but people tend to forget that they can put out some SERIOUS firepower when they feel the need.
That one Craftworld was size of Earth... You cannot attack something that big with few hundred ships...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:Probably got the terms confused. It's been a long day.
How big is the Gothic Sector, then, given that the entire BFG game is set in it. 200 LY cubed or so I think?
Brother Coa wrote:Enemies of man are known to hit hard targets ( Caida, Armageddon, Macragge... ), why not Terra all this millenia?
Terra isn't a hard target, it is the hardest. No other planet in the whole of 40k is going to be so well defended, and then it isn't just one target every nearby planet, space station, etc. is going to be the second or third best defended and so on. Plenty of enemies have tried to attack the sol system in past 10000 years, every one of the 13 black crusades has tried it, I'm sure plenty of waaaaghs have gone in that direction, they just all get stopped elsewhere. Do you not understand how well defended the sol system is?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Pouncey wrote: basically, it's a weaponized atomsmasher that takes a single proton and accelerates it to near-light velocities, aimed at the enemy ships.
I think you're having a deficiency with scale if you think that would damage a 40k space vessel.
Please read the rest of the post before commenting on it.
yes, they have those as standard armament as Weapon batteries(which defines a mixture of Railguns, Macro-cannons, plasma projectors, and laser cannons)
they use a massive Railgun to fire Nova Cannon shells(a gun the length of the ship, cruisers are between 5 and 6km in length)
yes, they have those as standard armament as Weapon batteries(which defines a mixture of Railguns, Macro-cannons, plasma projectors, and laser cannons)
they use a massive Railgun to fire Nova Cannon shells(a gun the length of the ship, cruisers are between 5 and 6km in length)
The Nova Cannon, if it were as powerful as the type of mass driver I mean, wouldn't need to use fusion bombs. It'd be wholly un-necessary, when a projectile consisting of a single proton is more than capable of destroying ships that are not literally perfect.
Edit: Easier to accelerate, too. I could see it maybe as a large area-effect weapon, though.
it has just as much chance of passing right through the ship with no harm as it does to do massive damage.
a Proton is going to have trouble doing much damage as Force is Mass times velocity. with almost no mass, the Proton would completely rely on its Velocity.
Lysenis wrote:Considering that happened during the Horus Heresy I would honestly think that they would have fixed that problem.
It's a problem that can't be fixed.
At least, you could fix it by moving a number of agri-worlds into the sol system and putting them into Earth's orbit, etc. to make the system self-sufficient.
Pouncey wrote:
No, I mean a souped-up mass driver.
I hate to be a grammar nazi here, but this made me laugh a lot. It's 'suped up' not 'souped up'. Now I can't get this image of a ship with gun covered in soup and spaghetti out of my head.
Grey Templar wrote:I don't think many people realize just how fortified Terra is.
you have 2 Space Marine chapters based there(Gks and Imperial Fists),
it has an entire segmentum sized fleet assigned to its defense. Hundreds of Battleships, thousands of cruisers, untold escorts. Massive Space stations in their thousands, ground defenses.
then there is the defense forces of Mars and Saturn. Saturn's navel acadamy produces the finest Captains, Navy ratings, and best trained fleet in the Galaxy.
the the ground forces of the Mechanicus and the Terran PDF. Terras pop is in the hundreds of trillions as the most densly populated planet in the Galaxy. the PDF would match its size.
there is an entire Titan Legion that guards the palace. 2 Warhounds guard the gate into the Throne room.
and the Custodes, all 10,000 of them.
not to mention all the other imperial forces which would rush to the aid of terra in the event of an invasion.
Most I do agree with but the IF are not actually based on Terra, it is just a title, the IF are spread around the galaxy.
We know that the Orks usually can't mass enough forces to be really dangerous. However, if some WAAAGH! did manage to reach Sol, might that not be like a beacon for all the other Orks that there is the best fighting ever there?
Oh God, I see the direction this thread is going in. BeefCake, please refrain from mentioning Tau, lest the amount of threadlock in store causes a rip in reality and the Sun to explode. It'll turn in to a representation of what would happen in universe. Tau fans: Oh hai there! We were just thinkin dat- IoM: PUUUUUURRRRGE!!!
Believe me I'm a fanboy, but I have no doubts in the present 41st the Tau wouldn't have a shot in hell against Terra.
A battle between Terra and the Tau would be a bunch of battlesuits running around like Johnny 5 in a doomsday war, with piles of KFC miles high that were once kroot. Won't even go into how lopsided the fleet battle would be.
It's not that the Tau are bad, it's that, within the context of the 40k fiction, they aren't even on the same scale as the Imperium. I wasn't kidding when I said that the Imperial military presence in Terra was possibly greater than that of the whole Tau Empire. The Imperium does it bigger than anyone, and though a lot of their technology is on the lower end of the spectrum, the best equipment that they can muster is found in the Sol system. Honestly, the Tau would never, ever assail Terra. They would carve out a well supported presence on the other side of the galaxy from Terra, defend it decisively, and then win a (teeth gritting, curse mumbling) non-aggression treaty from the Imperials. That's what makes the Tau interesting and unique in the 40k universe. If Tau players wanted to play the guys whose policy is to blast things to buggery, they should have picked an Imperial army!
@SkaerKrow I know, I was just referencing Beef's...er....tendencies. I'm a Tau fan myself, but usually as soon as they're mentioned the thread becomes an off-topic flame war.
And Beef, what is a Moon Gun? Is it a gun the size of a moon, or a gun that fires moons?
TrollPie wrote:@SkaerKrow I know, I was just referencing Beef's...er....tendencies. I'm a Tau fan myself, but usually as soon as they're mentioned the thread becomes an off-topic flame war.
And Beef, what is a Moon Gun? Is it a gun the size of a moon, or a gun that fires moons?
That totally fake gun of fakeness the Tau got in DoW!
TrollPie wrote:@SkaerKrow I know, I was just referencing Beef's...er....tendencies. I'm a Tau fan myself, but usually as soon as they're mentioned the thread becomes an off-topic flame war.
And Beef, what is a Moon Gun? Is it a gun the size of a moon, or a gun that fires moons?
That totally fake gun of fakeness the Tau got in DoW!
Pouncey wrote:I wonder if the Imperium's figured out how to power a... whatsit called again... basically, it's a weaponized atomsmasher that takes a single proton and accelerates it to near-light velocities, aimed at the enemy ships. This, for some reason beyond my comprehension, causes it to become the size of a planet. Apparently when this planet-sized object impacts a vessel at .99999~c, even if the ship is structurally perfect and manages to survive, if the artificial gravity has any delay whatsoever in compensating, the crew becomes red jelly on the walls. According to my source, the problem with the whole thing is the power required - roughly the same as our star's entire output.
Wait, this is 40k we're talking about, not real life... Nevermind.
Particle Cannon, which is a weaponized version of a Particle accelerator (which smashes atoms), except it would fire much more than just a single proton.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Eldar would not let Terra fall, if Terra falls, the Imperium falls, which is largely what keeps the Tyranids, Necrons, Orkz, and Chaos at bay.
Similarly, I have no doubt the Eldar would be willing to help defend Terra against a massive enough force, especially if it was a Necron or Chaos force, the Necrons being their ancient enemies, and Chaos being responsible for their race's decline.
The Eldar already helped the Imperium in 13'th Black Crusade and they would probably helped at Terra to.
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TrollPie wrote:Oh God, I see the direction this thread is going in. BeefCake, please refrain from mentioning Tau, lest the amount of threadlock in store causes a rip in reality and the Sun to explode.
You can't help the traitor. When there is a thread about anything on Dakka ( even Chaos and Necron related topic ) this traitor show's up and started talking about Tau all like this:
Then they start talking about Titan and Manta, Taros and Guard...so please - just ignore him....
So, back on topic. Do Terra has it's own sustained system for water and food or they import everything from local agri-worlds?
And do they have emergency supplies ( in case of invasion )?
Imperial palace is after all on level of Himalayas, with building on that level you wonder if they have water reserves size of Pacific and food reserves size of Asia...
They after all have library with no end...
Kilkrazy wrote:Nothing is 100% efficient, so new supplies will be needed.
Kan once told on one topic that they get water from asteroids that are in belt around our solar system.
It's not 100, but it is surely 80% efficient. It's not like Terrans will just sit and let enemy take out their outer colonies after all...
Horus, ambitious and a good general, gets stabbed with magic sword and almost dies, becomes evil and sets fire to the galaxy in a mahoosive civil war.
Guilliman, ambitious and a good general, gets stabbed by magic sword... currently in stasis, I wonder why...
Grey Templar wrote:wasn't it the same magic sword too?
I don't think so...
Though i wasn't there so i could be wrong...
I don't know what happened to the sword after that undead fellow spiked Horus with it though...
purplefood wrote:He's already a heretic...
Mat Ward is actually a CSM fan.
Soon he will unveil the new Codex and doom will be brought to those of the Impeial Creed.
CSM fan?
Yeah, Draigo go trough the Warp raping Chaos Daemons and such is representation of his CSM fanbase...
We already know that he has a "thing" for Ultramarines...
purplefood wrote:He's already a heretic...
Mat Ward is actually a CSM fan.
Soon he will unveil the new Codex and doom will be brought to those of the Impeial Creed.
CSM fan?
Yeah, Draigo go trough the Warp raping Chaos Daemons and such is representation of his CSM fanbase...
We already know that he has a "thing" for Ultramarines...
You think he has a 'thing' for Ultramarines?
You think Draigo's fluff was supposed to be him being awesome?
Wait until you see Mat's CSM codex...
It will rock your world.
UM fan N°1 will give us CSM that want to be UM.
And why?
.............because they have to steal geneseed and most of it will be UM flavored one......
thus slowly turning them into "lost sons of rowboat" and the hint on imperium secundus , the secret subtitle of codex astartes ,
shall be all I can reveal to you.
purplefood wrote:He's already a heretic...
Mat Ward is actually a CSM fan.
Soon he will unveil the new Codex and doom will be brought to those of the Impeial Creed.
CSM fan?
Yeah, Draigo go trough the Warp raping Chaos Daemons and such is representation of his CSM fanbase...
We already know that he has a "thing" for Ultramarines...
You think he has a 'thing' for Ultramarines?
You think Draigo's fluff was supposed to be him being awesome?
Wait until you see Mat's CSM codex...
It will rock your world.
But he is doing the Black Templars... and probably Tau...
purplefood wrote:He's already a heretic...
Mat Ward is actually a CSM fan.
Soon he will unveil the new Codex and doom will be brought to those of the Impeial Creed.
CSM fan?
Yeah, Draigo go trough the Warp raping Chaos Daemons and such is representation of his CSM fanbase...
We already know that he has a "thing" for Ultramarines...
You think he has a 'thing' for Ultramarines?
You think Draigo's fluff was supposed to be him being awesome?
Wait until you see Mat's CSM codex...
It will rock your world.
But he is doing the Black Templars... and probably Tau...
Yeah they will both be chas aligned in the new books...
purplefood wrote:
Yeah they will both be chaos aligned in the new books...
Now that we cleared that out...
Any new thought about OP?
It should be pretty damn obvious why no one has attacked Sol since Horus did it...
It's not about chances of success but more to do with the fact that if they were successful GW would have a big problem with the resulting chaos...
purplefood wrote:
It should be pretty damn obvious why no one has attacked Sol since Horus did it...
It's not about chances of success but more to do with the fact that if they were successful GW would have a big problem with the resulting chaos...
I think it is more of result - bad guys never win...EVER...
purplefood wrote:
It should be pretty damn obvious why no one has attacked Sol since Horus did it...
It's not about chances of success but more to do with the fact that if they were successful GW would have a big problem with the resulting chaos...
I think it is more of result - bad guys never win...EVER...
Apparently you've never seen a foriegn movie ... bad guys can actually win.
purplefood wrote: It should be pretty damn obvious why no one has attacked Sol since Horus did it... It's not about chances of success but more to do with the fact that if they were successful GW would have a big problem with the resulting chaos...
I think it is more of result - bad guys never win...EVER...
Apparently you've never seen a foriegn movie ... bad guys can actually win.
In this case Imperium = Humanity = Human. And there are 4 universal rules for Humans in every fiction:
1. Humans must SUCK ( being the weakest of all other races. Both psychically, mentally and sometimes technologically ). 2. Humans must always use inferior weapon to fight against advanced enemies ( hence, Lasgun ), against primitive ones they always must be butchered ( Starship Troopers ). 3. Humans must always have a leader who will lead them until the end, and who will be quite unbetable and being able to manage in every second-breaking situation ( Master Chief, Emperor of Mankind, Shepard ). 4. Most important rule: HUMANS ALWAYS WIN. ALWAYS. Due to heroic actions of their hero ( see rule 3. ) or some cunning tactical thinking that invole a gakload of men, armor and ship throwed at the enemy.
Psienesis wrote:An Ork Waaagh would first have to travel from whatever system they originate in, like, say, the 'Undred 'Undred Teef of the Koronus Expanse, travel all through space to the Sol system, most likely encountering stiff resistance along the way, remain focused on the ultimate goal, not suffer any significant internal strife, and then attack the most heavily-defended system in Imperial space.
Not gonna happen.
Not to mention defeat the HUNDREDS of chapters that would respond to the distrss call.
Not to mention that Ork Waaaaghs usually rely on travelling aboard space hulks and using their erratic warp jumps to get anywhere.
Orks can sort of direct their jumps, but it is normally "Pres dat butten, *zzzoorp. Oi, dis aint Armageddon, wez at Cadia! o'well, crumpins just az good ere az at Armageddon"
Psienesis wrote:An Ork Waaagh would first have to travel from whatever system they originate in, like, say, the 'Undred 'Undred Teef of the Koronus Expanse, travel all through space to the Sol system, most likely encountering stiff resistance along the way, remain focused on the ultimate goal, not suffer any significant internal strife, and then attack the most heavily-defended system in Imperial space.
Not gonna happen.
Not to mention defeat the HUNDREDS of chapters that would respond to the distrss call.
They would answer, but it would take a while to get there. Warp travel is far from instant and far from safe. Sometimes it takes decades or centuries to get from point A to point B.
Also they'd have to abandon every non-sol system imperial holding to destruction to all come zooming over to Terra. The edges of the empire are embattled enough already without reducing the protection. They might send a part of their force, but they'd likely not just all pack up and head terra-wards.
I can see a huge ork WAAAGH travelling across the galaxy and happening across the Sol system en route, as that doesn't need much planning and organisation, but a deliberate attack on Terra and only Terra, probably not. As mentioned above they would probably pop up at Cadia instead and call it good
Maybe an invasion of one very very startled Mekboy might happen after a Shokk Attack incident Granted he wouldn't last too long, but it would eb funny as hell if he popped up right next to the golden throne, and had the access plate off and his legs sticking out of the mechanism before anyone could drag him out, protesting...
The way I see it, there would need to be a combined attack by multiple forces. The only way this could happen would be several factions happening to attack all at once. Or at least several distracting forces on the outskirts. So Leviathian attacks Macragge (again) and ties up the Ultras, and maybe another chapter who come to help. CSM launch a crusade and tie up Cadia. The Dark Eldar and Necrons both seperately attack different planets in the Sol system. The Orks, seeing that they are missing out on all the fun, gather a Waagh of unprecedented size. So while the Imperium has their hands (relatively) full with all of these schenanigans, 1 (or all 4) of the chaos Gods launches a massive attack into the Sol system.
And the Tau...right...
So its highly unlikely, but it would probably take something of that magnitude to have any likely hood of being successful.
Imperial Fanboyism aside it would not take every other faction acting in concert to take out one system, no matter how tooled up it might be. Several forces from the same faction, possibly (several different waaghs, hivefleets, whatever..).
It would be a very very rough slog for any one faction to attack the heart of the IOM and win, but it would be doable if any of the factions was willing to commit enough force to the effort.
The same goes for the IOM wiping any of the factions off the map.
None of the factions have enough uncommitted, available forces to justify the move, as they are busy on other fronts/still asleep/not organised enough to completely destroy another faction etc.. If one of the factions could gather all of its forces at once to take out another faction exclusively without it being aware of the move (unlikely) it might be possible, but that would leave their territory easy pickings for other factions,and they'd likely be so depleted by the effort that they'd collapse or be destroyed afterward.
The only playable faction to completely destroy another playable faction was the squats being eaten by the nids, and look at the crapstorm that stirred up
