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Post by: CIAbugguy
Alright so I am bored and work in Mexico and have started painting to keep myself busy. I have played a necron and space marine army and want to try something new. Currently there is not a soul who plays eldar in my friendly Gaming store home in Canada.
My question basically is whether eldar are viable for competative play and that is why no one uses them where i am from, or just no one understands the true power. I want to start an eldar army cause i think they are cool but dont want to spend the money on something that will lose everytime. Any advice on a decent starting eldar army would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Brian
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Post by: Mr. Self Destruct
Eldar isn't as hard as DE and a bit more elite. Expensive transports and units mean you put down less stuff, but the army is definitely good. I've yet to see it played well, though.
Eldar is a bit tricky to build as well. You might want to just look up some tacticas, the competitive builds are really boring.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Well against new top tier armies an all comers Eldar army has some potential.
Assuming 2 players of equal skill here is how I see Eldar going up against a 5th ed codex.
Eldar should have the upper hand against GK which is becoming a popular army.
It should be an even fight with DE, space wolves, Tyranids, or codex SM.
Eldar have a severe disadvantage going up against a list with too much target saturation such as DoA BA, Mech IG, or tankspam BA.
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Post by: JGrand
They aren't the worst army in the game but I would not call them good. Most of the units are overcosted. They also take lots of skill to pull off wins. They rarely win in a massive stomping. Usually, Eldar wins involve squeaking out KP's or last second contestations of objectives.
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Post by: Yuber
Ive been playing eldar recently, and the army is all about making a very synergistic list - that will determine whether you will have a hard or easy time with eldar.
And then, because its not a beatstick army, you will actually play the game using more brains and less of mathhammer and papercraft.
So the answer is, yes. Eldar is a very competitive army, so long as you exploit the almost broken rules of their units such as:
-Holo fields - easily making eldar have the toughest tanks to kill in the game (falcons). and dont forget
-Fortune and SMF rule. Their tanks being fast skimmers will always guarantee significant increase in survivability and with fortune, its like having a 2+ save. That and coupled with how hard it is to deal with av12.
-Eldrad. I cannot fathom a proper eldar army without eldrad. The ability to project a 24" psychic bubble support thrice per turn is a dangerous force multiplier.
-Dire Avengers. These are the most flexible if not, the best troops in the game, being able to tripletap+ guide+doom any infantry to oblivion (killing 6 MEQs) , and can survive assault fairly thanks to their 5+ invul save (dont forget about fortune).
-Fire Dragons: These are the cheapest melta units in the game. With these guys, forget about bright lance and EMLs and any expensive long range eldar weaponry. After all you just need to destroy 2-3 tanks that would pose the most problem for your army.
Playing as eldar, you have to forget about standard engagement doctrines you are accustomed to with other armies. It is all about knocking your opponent off balance, and massed firepower does not do it for eldar, a common list building principle in 40k.
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Post by: CIAbugguy
So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?
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Post by: JGrand
So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?
Loads. HQ- Any Phoenix Lord is a huge mistake. You will likely want at least 1 Seer, probably Eldrad at higher points levels. So, basically how the other choice fits (if it does) is important. Elites- Harlies are crap. I personally don't think that Banshees and Scorpions are all that great. As counter assault...maybe. As an active assault unit, no. There is no way to deliver them. Wraith Guard are pretty bad as well. Basically Fire Dragon spam in this slot. Troops-I don't think any are actually good. DA are overcosted. Guardians are pretty meh. Bikes are expensive as well. Min squads in Serpents is the way to go. Fast Attack- I don't know that anything is really "good" here. Vypers can be used. Spiders...maybe. Shining Spears are trash. This stuff suffers all suffers from being highly overcosted (a common theme). Heavy Support-People swear by Prisms and Falcons. In theory they are better than in practice. Falcons can be tough to kill if used right. Prisms really lack punch. War Walkers are good. The rest is kinda bad. Reapers aren't that good because they are entirely geared to anti MEQ out of transports and outside cover. Support Weapons aren't great either either. Not to be too cynical but the codex is really limited. Successful Eldar are down to a mono-build.
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Post by: stonetempledion
CIAbugguy wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?
I would avoid Swooping Hawks like the plague. I thought what most people said about them was an exaggeration, but then I actually tried using them and found that they were absolute crap. In fact, the fast attack is really lackluster.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
CIAbugguy wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?
Everything that isn't:
Farseer
Autarch
Dire Avengers
Fire Dragons
War Walkers
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpent
If you're feeling like you're one of the best 40k players around, you may also use
Avatar
Guardians
Jetbikes
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Post by: Son_Of _Deddog
Short answer, yes.
Mechdar (everything in waveserpents, Fire prisms, Falcons, nothing on foot, maybe some bikes) is the build considered "best". At it's core is 2-3 FD squads in Serpents and Falcons and/or Fire Prisms.
Footdar is seen as less competative, requiring considerably more finesse. Use Eldrad/Avatar as HQ, and guardians with HW's within the Avatar's Fearless bubble. Classic Wraithwall spams Wraithguard and Wraithlord along with some Harlequins-layering to try and get everything a cover save. Less conventional builds use more esoteric units, but in general retain the Eldrad/Avatar core, and at least 2 Wraithlords (along with a Squad of 3 Warwalkers, generally with SL's..).
Bikedar-lots of bikes (Duh!!) with maybe some Vipers and the odd HS Skimmer (like a scoring Falcon)-isn't seen much, is tricky to win with, but is very fun (well, I hope, as I'm slowly accruing enough bikes to run it..)..
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Post by: Shadowseer_Kim
Honestly, you can use the majority of the Eldar units to good success, if you combine them properly.
Depending on what army you are facing at any given time of course you will need to vary your tactics.
I have used nearly everything in the codex, even the "worst" units. They do have their place, at different point levels.
In my armies you can regularly find
Eldrad
Farseer
Avatar
Fuegan
Baharroth
Autarch
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Pathfinders
Fire Dragons
Harlequins
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Wraithlords
War Walkers
Dark Reapers
Falcons
Wave Serpents
I have yet to use the rest, mainly because of lack of models, or not having them built yet.
Find your style, and go with it. It can be challenging, but that makes the wins that much sweeter.
All in all, they are fun to play, just to see what mayhem you can actually pull of, with one of "worst" units/armies/codexes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
For basic starter stuff to get your army started.
Eldrad
Farseer
Wraithlord
Dire Avengers
War Walkers
Rangers/Pathfinders
Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent or Falcon
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Post by: Son_Of _Deddog
Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Honestly, you can use the majority of the Eldar units to good success, if you combine them properly.
Depending on what army you are facing at any given time of course you will need to vary your tactics.....
This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...
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Post by: Shadowseer_Kim
Son_Of _Deddog wrote:Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Honestly, you can use the majority of the Eldar units to good success, if you combine them properly.
Depending on what army you are facing at any given time of course you will need to vary your tactics.....
This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...
Amen.
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Post by: Code
Son_Of _Deddog wrote:This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...
Can someone give me some actual examples of this? I keep hearing this statement, but it's always quite vague and I never really understand what people mean by it.
A Farseer using doom or guide... I wouldn't call that synergy to be honest. I'd just call it using a support unit. Is it really that different from an Ork using a Big Meks kustom force field or a Tau using Pathfinders?
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Post by: Yuber
Code wrote:Son_Of _Deddog wrote:This is the key, really. Eldar are not a "point and click" force. You need to use various units in synergy to achieve your goal. I feel that mechdar is seen as the best list is because it removes a lot of the synergy requirements...
Can someone give me some actual examples of this? I keep hearing this statement, but it's always quite vague and I never really understand what people mean by it.
A Farseer using doom or guide... I wouldn't call that synergy to be honest. I'd just call it using a support unit. Is it really that different from an Ork using a Big Meks kustom force field or a Tau using Pathfinders?
Samples of synergy:
-Vehicle blocking your firedragons to keep them from getting assaulted.
-Putting an Avatar in the rear so that any unit that will be running away is caught by the fearless aura making them fight again.
-Using Harlequins as a mobile cover save to your footdar army
-Eldrad redeploying your most vulnerable assets to a advantageous position
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Post by: Murenius
IMO the point with eldar is that you can't view the units separately, much less than other armies. Many people judge the worth of a unit just by counting how many enemy points it killed. This is a flawed measure, however. An example to illustrate this: Unit A is mobile and lightly armed, Unit B is heavy infantery. Unit B was able to deliver a round of heavy fire, but would be obliterated before shooting again. Now Unit A assaults the enemy and keeps Unit B alive which is thus enabled to kill much more than Unit A would ever have been able to. Now, do you add the points solely on Unit B's kill count to judge their value?
In my Eldar army I have had several of such situations. E.g. Swooping Hawks attacking an IG artillery tank deep in the enemy flank. Even though the haywire grenade only scored glancing hits the tank was stunned and the enemy had to move a vendetta to threaten the hawks, not shooting at my Dark Reapers, giving them another round. In the same game they also delivered two large blast templates when deep striking, which in turn allowed my Guardians to deal with the damaged veteran squad much easier than if it had been at full strength. Considered alone the SH were no game winner since they didn't destroy a single unit. But without them I'd have lost the game for sure.
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Post by: racta
For me, I do much better when I remember (and act accordingly) that each unit has strengths and weaknesses and have to be used together to maximize their worth. Unlike marines, like my blood angels, they don't have the numbers or the inherent survivability to be sent alone on a job and be expected to fulfill it.
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Post by: Gorechild
Darkness's list is pretty good, but I'd add (in green) and remove (in red):
DarknessEternal wrote:CIAbugguy wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?
Everything that isn't:
Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Autarch
Prince Yriel
Dire Avengers
Storm Guardians
Fire Dragons
War Walkers
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpent
Eldrad is god, for his points he's the best HQ in the game, period.
Storm Guardians with 2 Flamers and a Destructor Warlock in a Wave Serpent are great at bringing down hordes. More costly than a min DA squad, but they make things a litte more interesting.
The only reason I'm against Falcons is that they loose most of their fire power if you move, Fire prisms can still move and fire their big gun. If you want to use them for what they are good at, you have no choice other than to sit still all game.
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Post by: Master Melta
I run S6 spam and do very well. The only thing that I can't quite get a handle on is horde orks, but I've only played them in 2 games. Game 1 was a learning experience, game 2 dice and senario really hurt but I did much better.
Basically I run everything as cheap as I can.
Farseer with 1 power, typically guide and runes of warding.
As many 5 mand DA squads in SL WS as possible.
2 Fire dragsons in SL WS
1 War Walker unit with SL
a couple of vypers with SL
2 night spinners
S cannon up grades or farseer powers if I can afford them
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Post by: JGrand
Everything that isn't:
Farseer
Autarch
Dire Avengers
Fire Dragons
War Walkers
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpent
If you're feeling like you're one of the best 40k players around, you may also use
Avatar
Guardians
Jetbikes
This is a pretty good list of stuff that's usable in a competitive setting in that codex. I think the key here comes down to people's definition of competitive. Taking Eldar to a tourney is usually not going to yield great results. The reasons are:
a. many of their units are over priced compared to the newer codices
b. it's difficult to win big and get massacres with Eldar
Can they stand up to optimized 5th edition codex lists run by good players? Maybe. It would take a an amazing list, player, and things going well for them. The ability of so many newer armies to spam ranged strength 8 weaponry really hurts them. Horrid troop choices really hurt them. Having to use psychic powers before movement really hurts them. The list goes on.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Gorechild wrote:Darkness's list is pretty good, but I'd add (in green) and remove (in red):
DarknessEternal wrote:
Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Autarch
Prince Yriel
Eldrad is god, for his points he's the best HQ in the game, period.
To clarify I include Eldrad in Farseers and Yriel in Autarchs.
And I guess I should have said Falcon instead of Falcons. Not really useful to have more than one as they displace Fire Prisms, but Falcons are the only thing worth a holo-field so make a good ride for your one HQ. Movement isn't an issue. 6" is more than enough most turns assuming you have half a dozen other tanks swarming around. If you need to move more than that, the Pulse Laser is an adequate single weapon.
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Post by: Yuber
Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/
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Post by: Mahtamori
Yuber wrote:Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/
July White Dwarf last year I believe it was. Take a Fire Prism, replace the weapon with Shadow Weavers, add a special rule that makes units hit suffer from difficult and dangerous terrain.
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Post by: CIAbugguy
Dark reapers sound pretty cool, have a decent weapons and decent range, could they not be a good unit to use in combination with mechdar for fire support?
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Post by: Master Melta
Mahtamori wrote:Yuber wrote:Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/
July White Dwarf last year I believe it was. Take a Fire Prism, replace the weapon with Shadow Weavers, add a special rule that makes units hit suffer from difficult and dangerous terrain.
Correct! Rules are online somewhere too, just search GW for the PDF.
Many folks argue against their use and they are not as devistating when they hit as a twin linked blast from a Fire Prism, nor can they pop vehicles as much but:
They are twin linked and the effects they cause throw lots of people for a loop and nickle and dime them to death.
Example: Center on one unit, scatters to hit one model in one unit and some in another, get a casualty or two, then both units are in difficult and dangerous terran until the next time they move, meaning if you cause them to move they check, and they have to take a pinning check. No line of sight requires and since there is just one gun, zoom around 12 and fire at will. I love them!
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Post by: Droofus
Don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but I the Eldar Jetbike Seer Council of Doom is still one of the premiere assault units in the game. The problem for most players is that GW doesn't make models for this awesome awesome unit and the conversion work can be a pain.
Anyway, most of the ones I've seen involve around 6+ (points depending) warlocks on jetbikes with 1+ embolden, 1+ enhance, and the rest with destructor. They are led by a farseer on a bike with fortune and whatever powers you like.
I don't play Eldar myself, but I ran into a supremely nasty jet-council/mechanized army at the 'Ard Boyz semis last year. Another Jet Council army won our local round-robin league earlier this year. It is a very good unit.
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Post by: Flavius Infernus
CIAbugguy wrote:Dark reapers sound pretty cool, have a decent weapons and decent range, could they not be a good unit to use in combination with mechdar for fire support?
They look good on paper, but are disappointing in practice.
Str 5 is essentially useless against vehicles, so your only real target is 3+ save infantry (don't even bother against terminators). You hit them on 3s, wound on 3s, and they usually get a cover save, so even a maximum size unit of 5 reapers is looking at about 2 dead marines per volley, or 1-2 wounds on a monstrous creature. Underwhelming for a unit that costs more than most of your tanks.
A couple of heavy bolters, multi-lasers, assault cannons or krak missiles into that reaper unit and you'll nearly always lose enough models to cause a break test, definitely lose enough to lose most of your firepower effectiveness.
If anything assaults them, they'll be wiped out in 1-2 phases without dealing any significant damage in return.
You can take the unit as an expensive bodyguard for a tooled-up exarch, which gives you a couple of krak missile shots. But the minimum cost of the unit is still more than taking a 3-shot falcon or comparable vehicle-based firepower.
The biggest drawback, though, is that they can't move and shoot. So in Dawn of War or reserves-based deployments, you're not shooting before turn 3 at the earliest, and your opponent can use terrain or other LoS blocking to make the reapers ineffective. That's also why they don't go well with a mech army--the rest of the army leaves them behind.
You're usually better off with more tanks.
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Post by: G00fySmiley
eldar are tough to play as. If i make a mistake with my orks i can sometimes just muscle through, same with space marines. But eldar from what I've seen and played are finesse at its finest. as said you need to screen certain units,. have certain units keeping thie distance while others cover thier reteat.. but when played correctly they are awsome to see, I fully admit watching an eldar battle played well I definatly had the thought that I probably at this stage (have only been playing a little over 6 months) would not have been able to move like that and think to retreat and regroup around forcing the opponent to decide where to concentrate fire and assaults. Still I plan on also trying them one day when I get better (or thier codex gets better)
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Post by: CIAbugguy
I think I am going to have to give them a try, the jet bike seer council sounds cool, and war walkers look neat so ill start with painting those and work from there. It will give me a challenge in battle and be a little different to play than my iron hands or my Necrons.
Thanks for the tips, harlequins sound like they would be decent in close combat, is the fact they cant get transports why they are normally frowned apon
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Post by: Yuber
SO the nightspinner: Can it be used? It does not appear in the codex.
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Post by: notabot187
Yuber wrote:SO the nightspinner: Can it be used? It does not appear in the codex.
Well, it comes down to event organizers allowing it then. I would say its ok, GW has printed entire codexes in WD before. Also its not exactly the best weapon in the world, and its not like eldar are an over powered army.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Mahtamori wrote:Yuber wrote:Ok. WTH is a nightspinner? I cant see one in the Codex =/
July White Dwarf last year I believe it was. Take a Fire Prism, replace the weapon with Shadow Weavers, add a special rule that makes units hit suffer from difficult and dangerous terrain.
S6 AP- Rending
Range 12-72"
Large Blast, Barrage
Twin linked
It webs every unit that it hits, and does not need to inflict a single wound. Webbed units take difficult and dangerous terrain tests in both the movement phase if they move, and assault phase if they attempt to assault. Multiple units can be webbed with a single shot, because the large pie only needs to partially touch 1 model from each unit for the entire unit to be webbed. The large pie is twin linked which means it gets a re roll to hit making it an very accurate weapon even with a BS 3 backing it.
Now time for my minority opinion.
Shadow weavers>Fire prisims.
1 night spinner versus 1 fire prism against MEQ or in cover
1 TL shot at S6 rending> 1 shot a S5 AP4
2 night spinners versus 2 fire prisms against MEQ
2 TL shots at S6 rending>1 shot at S6 AP3
Math hammer
Each night spinner hit has a 7/18 chance of killing a MEQ (1/6 chance of rend + 2/9 chance of wound + failed armor save)
Each Fire prism hit has a 5/6 chance of wounding a MEQ which translates to a 15/18 chance of killing a MEQ or 83.333%
2 night spinners doubles the number of hits and thus doubles chance of killing which translates to a 14/18 chance of killing a MEQ or 77.777%
All of that being said 14/18>15/18, now you may be asking yourself "Shadenfreude what kind of Fubard LA unified school district math were you victimized with as a child?
14/18>15/18 for because of many reasons, here are my top 4
#1 The 14/18 is twin linked and will produce more hits, and the additional hits will produce more casualties than a 1/18 improvement in the quality of hits that the fire prism provides.
#2 If the MEQ have cover the 15/18 will be cut in half.
#3 If 1 of the 2 tanks is shaken or stunned it reverts back to 1 TL shot at S6 rending> 1 shot a S5 AP4.
#4 3/18 of the survivors will die next turn if they move, and another 3/18 will die if the unit assaults. The last time I checked my faulty LAUSD math 3/18>1/18.
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Post by: Flavius Infernus
schadenfreude wrote: The last time I checked my faulty LAUSD math 3/18>1/18.
Yeah, but neither 1/18 nor 3/18 is very good. A bog-standard scatterlaser at about 10/18 (not even twinlinked) shows just how small those odds are for a 115+ point tank.
Also hopefully everyone has figured out you can avoid mass casualties from dangerous terrain tests by moving only one model in the unit in the following turn to shake off the effect. Only the model that moves takes the test. Slows the unit down, but for some big units it would be worth it.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Flavius Infernus wrote:schadenfreude wrote: The last time I checked my faulty LAUSD math 3/18>1/18.
Yeah, but neither 1/18 nor 3/18 is very good. A bog-standard scatterlaser at about 10/18 (not even twinlinked) shows just how small those odds are for a 115+ point tank.
Also hopefully everyone has figured out you can avoid mass casualties from dangerous terrain tests by moving only one model in the unit in the following turn to shake off the effect. Only the model that moves takes the test. Slows the unit down, but for some big units it would be worth it.
Those were relative increases. The actual stats would be 17/18>15/18, but imo shooting a unit twice with a spnner is a waste. The ideal # of spinners is 1, save the other 2 force orgs for war walkers or falcons.
Need to double check the wd myself, but from what I remember there is no shaking off the webs. The webbed unit is stuck being webbed through their entire turn regardless if they move or not, and it goes away next turn regardless if they move or not.
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Post by: Roadkill Zombie
Nope, the Web goes away after they move, wether it is movement in the movement phase or the assult phase.
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Post by: Eyesedragon
CIAbugguy wrote:I think I am going to have to give them a try, the jet bike seer council sounds cool, and war walkers look neat so ill start with painting those and work from there. It will give me a challenge in battle and be a little different to play than my iron hands or my Necrons.
Thanks for the tips, harlequins sound like they would be decent in close combat, is the fact they cant get transports why they are normally frowned apon
Harlies are expensive and fragile for what they do and you need a doomseer backing them up to make them effective. In mechdar they can grab a fire dragon ws after they unload but typically when it comes to eldar leave the assault to the jetcouncil, and even they are not that great ... Most people spam firedragons (3x) in 1500+ to be competitve and harlies stick out like a sore thumb in a mech list and thats why people dont usually show any love for em . Fritz a popular eldar player has a ton of vids and even runs a full harly footdar list http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOfSaimHann?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/0/TpjrXlOKsnU check it out.
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Post by: Master Melta
Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also hopefully everyone has figured out you can avoid mass casualties from dangerous terrain tests by moving only one model in the unit in the following turn to shake off the effect. Only the model that moves takes the test. Slows the unit down, but for some big units it would be worth it.
Good point! However, if that unit of 30 boyz only moves 1 boy, that's a win!
Same goes for lots of units I don't want any closer to my squish eldar. My range is 36 inches and I can move 12 and fire to full effect with all those wave serpents. Giddy up non-moving/non-threatening bad guys. Stay put and I'll continue to saturate you to death.
MM
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Post by: Murenius
Master Melta wrote:
Good point! However, if that unit of 30 boyz only moves 1 boy, that's a win!
MM
So true. Especially with Eldar this leaves you much needed room to bring your cc into position and to punish them with another round of shots. Even if it is only 2 or 3 frag rockets from an EML will do evul stuff to a 30 nobz unit.
Another situation I can think of: you unloaded your DA to reduce the mob. Then you shoot your night spinner at the mob and they have to either take the dangerous terrain test or not assault your DA.
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Post by: notabot187
Murenius wrote:Master Melta wrote:
Good point! However, if that unit of 30 boyz only moves 1 boy, that's a win!
MM
So true. Especially with Eldar this leaves you much needed room to bring your cc into position and to punish them with another round of shots. Even if it is only 2 or 3 frag rockets from an EML will do evul stuff to a 30 nobz unit.
Another situation I can think of: you unloaded your DA to reduce the mob. Then you shoot your night spinner at the mob and they have to either take the dangerous terrain test or not assault your DA.
You mean you fire the nightspinner first, then unload. Ork players expecting templates will pull models in a way that eliminate bunching (which occurs when they have to move around terrain).
Also, the whole ork player moving just 1 guy to avoid the effects is just bad play. A real ork player takes his lumps as a part of doing business. Losing 1/6 guys just for moving? Acceptable losses. Units of 3+ saves dont' like the spinner more than orks. despite size. Why? Dangerous terrain means no armor save. Also, 3+ armies are more expensive per model, so when they lose that couple of models from moving, it actually hurts more than losing a handful of orks.
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Post by: AvatarForm
A "hard" Eldar list usually avoids most of the Eldar codex in favour of less "interesting" units.
You will commonly find:
Eldrad/Farseer
Fire Dragons + Falcon
Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent
Scorpions
Walkers
Wraithlord
Guardian Jetbike squads
Rangers
I do not think I have faced off against or used many of the other units. This is simply due to points restrictions making them unfavourable, as Eldar are an army which are very sensitive to losses.
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Post by: DAaddict
Farseers are the core of the army - A well-timed doom or guide will greatly increase your force. That is why many armies swear by Eldrad as he can throw around 3 of these every turn.
Doom is important for S3 & S4 attacks. Also greatly increases the value of rangers and pathfinders.
Guide is important for BS 3 squads and units. This pays off with Vypers, War walkers and falcons.
The strength of Eldar is really reduced by the current environment to Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers and the S6 weaponry in particular scatter lasers. Most often I see wave serpents, vypers and/or walkers with scatter lasers.
Nothing like a squadron of walkers with scatter lasers being guided. 24 S6 shots with an average of 18 hits will decimate most targets.
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Post by: AvatarForm
DAaddict wrote:Farseers are the core of the army - A well-timed doom or guide will greatly increase your force. That is why many armies swear by Eldrad as he can throw around 3 of these every turn.
Doom is important for S3 & S4 attacks. Also greatly increases the value of rangers and pathfinders.
Guide is important for BS 3 squads and units. This pays off with Vypers, War walkers and falcons.
The strength of Eldar is really reduced by the current environment to Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers and the S6 weaponry in particular scatter lasers. Most often I see wave serpents, vypers and/or walkers with scatter lasers.
Nothing like a squadron of walkers with scatter lasers being guided. 24 S6 shots with an average of 18 hits will decimate most targets.
I am yet to see a Vyper as a viable alternative to other options when you compare points for returns.
Yes, the psychic powers are integral. Now, extrapolate those thoughts into, one farseer in a falcon. There are no fire points, but you can use non- LOS powers from it while effectively shielding your Farseer. Also, you can pick up a Troops squad in later turns for a scoring Falcon move onto an objective.
The scatter laser are good, though I prefer EML on most twin linked platforms.
Do not under estimate the hit and run tactics of guardian jetbikes. Also, a shuriken cannon on ever 3rd bike is a must.
If you are playing larger (2000+) games, some aspects are good in deathstar combos.
Eg. Spiders + Exarch + Autarch with jump generator.
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Post by: notabot187
I've always thought the fire dragons falcon combo was terrible. Instead of taking the transport that is good against melta into melta range, you take the gun boat transport. Instead of taking the troops meant only for scoring purposes in the durable to long range fire transport, you stick it into the shortish range transport (the long range optios are far to expensive on a wave serpent). Seems kinda backwards.
I also wasn't aware that eldar rangers were any good. Maybe pathfinder skills are worth it, but regular rangers don't kill much. They also don't take much to kill.
Wraithlords are also somewhat suspect. Rather expensive for a crapping CC MC, and expensive ranged options. With no invul, and only a 3+, they are ML/dark lance bait. They have never done anything against me, and I've not seen them ever be effective locally.
My list of useful eldar units?
Autarch
farseer
seer council (jetbike only)
fire dragons (2 unit is minimum, which means little to no space for other elites)
guardian jetbikes
dire avengers
storm guardians (not efficient, and bad BS limit the fact they have decent weapons options. usable at least)
Vipers
Fire prisms
Falcon
Wave serpent
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Post by: Flavius Infernus
AvatarForm wrote:
I am yet to see a Vyper as a viable alternative to other options when you compare points for returns.
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/eldar-analysis-different-way-of-doing/
If your heavy slots are already filled with falcons and you still want massed str6 firepower comparable to what war walkers can lay down, then squadrons of 2-3 vypers with dual cannons or scatter/cannon can provide it.
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Post by: schadenfreude
notabot187 wrote:Murenius wrote:Master Melta wrote:
Good point! However, if that unit of 30 boyz only moves 1 boy, that's a win!
MM
So true. Especially with Eldar this leaves you much needed room to bring your cc into position and to punish them with another round of shots. Even if it is only 2 or 3 frag rockets from an EML will do evul stuff to a 30 nobz unit.
Another situation I can think of: you unloaded your DA to reduce the mob. Then you shoot your night spinner at the mob and they have to either take the dangerous terrain test or not assault your DA.
You mean you fire the nightspinner first, then unload. Ork players expecting templates will pull models in a way that eliminate bunching (which occurs when they have to move around terrain).
Also, the whole ork player moving just 1 guy to avoid the effects is just bad play. A real ork player takes his lumps as a part of doing business. Losing 1/6 guys just for moving? Acceptable losses. Units of 3+ saves dont' like the spinner more than orks. despite size. Why? Dangerous terrain means no armor save. Also, 3+ armies are more expensive per model, so when they lose that couple of models from moving, it actually hurts more than losing a handful of orks.
Against orcs a S6 ap- large pie is full of win. The real beauty of the night spinner is when you shoot the big mek's unit it screws with the movement of the entire army.
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Post by: CIAbugguy
Would it be practical to run walkers with EML and then vypers with the Shurikan cannons, you would have an excessive amount of heavy shots but you would be lacking on anything with any heavy armour weapons
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Post by: DAaddict
AvatarForm wrote:
I am yet to see a Vyper as a viable alternative to other options when you compare points for returns.
Yes, the psychic powers are integral. Now, extrapolate those thoughts into, one farseer in a falcon. There are no fire points, but you can use non-LOS powers from it while effectively shielding your Farseer. Also, you can pick up a Troops squad in later turns for a scoring Falcon move onto an objective.
The scatter laser are good, though I prefer EML on most twin linked platforms.
Do not under estimate the hit and run tactics of guardian jetbikes. Also, a shuriken cannon on ever 3rd bike is a must.
If you are playing larger (2000+) games, some aspects are good in deathstar combos.
Eg. Spiders + Exarch + Autarch with jump generator.
Vypers are good concentration of S6 firepower second to War Walkers. The problem with War Walkers is that they use up in-demand heavy slots.
So if you are building a list around night spinners, prisms or falcons then vypers are your only choice. Open-topped but for @200 points I can put out 21 S6 shots. The plus is that they cannot be tied down in close combat. The downside is the extra expense and vulnerability to fire that you need to conceal the squadron as much as possible.
EML versus Scatter Laser really comes down to cost versus ROF with a nod to strength. S6 eats up most MC and obviously any standard foot troops. Against AV 11 I would argue the S6 is almost as adequate as S8 when you consider 4 shots to 1. Guide 3 WW with Scatter lasers and we are talking 18 hits against AV 11 that is 3 Pens and 3 glances while my 3 WW with ML are going to get 4.5 hits and average 2.25 pens and .75 glances. Of course if I need to affect AV 13, the scatter lasers are worthless but thankfully no army at 2000 pts is going to have more than 4 units that are AV 13+.
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Post by: Crom
I have an Eldar army as does my buddy. Mine is 2,000 or so points form 2nd edition though and I haven't bought anything since 2nd Edition. This is how I think Eldar are effective and I play against them a lot with my Wolves and Orks.
1) Must use Eldrad, dude is just too powerful/useful and always give him a warlock entourage, to hide him from being sniped out. Just remember once they go under quarter strength they cannot rally though, not that it happens a lot but I have on several occasions routed Eldrad and he was never able to rally because the unit was under half (or quarter whatever it is) strength.
2) Re-deploy your transports to be behind cover in case you don't get first turn, Eldrad allows this
3) Put all your short range instant death guys (wraith guard, fire dragons) in transports and get them up the field as fast as possible. Move flat out, get them up there. They will shred enemy armor and take out elites no problem, and the wraith guard are sort of tough in hand to hand due to their high toughness
4) Dire avengers with an exarch and the ability to double your shots. this can be a game changer, especially on missions that require you to seize ground or objectives. You toss enough dice at unit they will eventually fail all their saving throws
5) walker squads with bright lances tear up heavy armor, no matter what the armor value is, bright lance reduce it to value of 8. I don't field tanks against eldar anymore I do all long fang squads because of the damn bright lances
6) Banshees/Scorpions I would not use all that much, I have never lost to them in combat. Every game I played against them I crushed them. Maybe they were being used wrong against me, or not built for my armies but I think they are a waste of points.
7) Pathfinders in cover are basically not kill-able. They get that bonus to cover saves, and they infiltrate. So, you post them up in cover and have them take out units. They are hit or miss as I have never had them deal a great amount of damage against me but I have seen them destroy other units in other games before.
8) Guardians - so cheap, they get a heavy weapon, and they can claim objectives and to be honest they get ignored a bunch as well. In fact I never try to take out guardians until they hold an objective. They are good distraction unit and very cheap points wise
9) Wraithlords....damn things are tough. No armor value and T8 so they will never have instant death and they can never be killed in one shot (lucky penetration shot) and they can soak up some fire. Plus they count as monstrous creatures so they roll 2D6 when attacking vehicles for armor penetration. They are a good unit.
10) Dark Reapers - meh to be honest they never really do squat against me, I would say pump up more dire avengers.
I could build you a few lists when I get back to my other computer and post them on what has worked against me and what hasn't. I played Eldar a lot in 2nd Ed and still have my army but not really so much in 5th.
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Post by: CIAbugguy
I am thinking about running this as my army any tips or pointers
HQ
Farseer w guide/fortune 105
Farseer w guide/fortune 105
Elites
5 fire dragons w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 222
5 fire dragons w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 222
Troops
5 Dire avengers w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 217
5 Dire avengers w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 217
Fast attack
3 Vypers w dual shurikan Cannon 150
3 Vypers w dual shurikan Cannon 150
Heavy
3 war walkers with 2 EML 130
3 war walkers with 2 EML 130
3 war walkers with 2 EML 130
1995
sounds like the list would have some serious fire power
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Post by: Shadowseer_Kim
Only problem with this list is. what happens when you get a 5 Objectives Game, a best you can hold 2, and maybe contest some more.
But hell, it's Eldar, it might just work for all occassions. I like the 9 War Walkers.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Vypers are mostly pointless. You'll lose all of them in your enemies first shooting phase.
Replace them with another Avenger Serpent and you also cover the previous posters' point.
Also, Runes of Warding are basically a necessity. Take them. And if you want those powers you're spending to actually work, you need Runes of Witnessing as well.
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Post by: AvatarForm
notabot187 wrote:I've always thought the fire dragons falcon combo was terrible. Instead of taking the transport that is good against melta into melta range, you take the gun boat transport. Instead of taking the troops meant only for scoring purposes in the durable to long range fire transport, you stick it into the shortish range transport (the long range optios are far to expensive on a wave serpent). Seems kinda backwards.
I also wasn't aware that eldar rangers were any good. Maybe pathfinder skills are worth it, but regular rangers don't kill much. They also don't take much to kill.
Wraithlords are also somewhat suspect. Rather expensive for a crapping CC MC, and expensive ranged options. With no invul, and only a 3+, they are ML/dark lance bait. They have never done anything against me, and I've not seen them ever be effective locally.
You seem to be using them incorrectly if this is what you took from my post.
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Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
CIAbugguy wrote:I am thinking about running this as my army any tips or pointers
HQ
Farseer w guide/fortune 105
Farseer w guide/fortune 105
Elites
5 fire dragons w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 222
5 fire dragons w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 222
Troops
5 Dire avengers w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 217
5 Dire avengers w wave serpent (TL shurikan cannon/shurikan cannon) 217
Fast attack
3 Vypers w dual shurikan Cannon 150
3 Vypers w dual shurikan Cannon 150
Heavy
3 war walkers with 2 EML 130
3 war walkers with 2 EML 130
3 war walkers with 2 EML 130
1995
sounds like the list would have some serious fire power
Dude, practically every points total in here is wrong. Go check your codex.
Leaving that aside, don't take 2 powers per farseer unless you take spirit stones as well. In a pure shooting army, I take 1 farseer only, with guide and runes of warding. He's good, but there isn't much point taking a second one compared to just buying more guns.
Take more scoring units ( DAs in wave serpents) before you take vypers. Vypers are so fragile, and you pay so much for the firepower.
Fire dragon wave serpents should have just the twin-linked shuriken cannon, maybe the twin scatter laser. A second weapon is pointless because you want to be moving at least 12" per turn getting those meltaguns into the right position.
Take longer range weapons on your DA wave serpents, you want them to stay out of potential assault/melta or plasma range.
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Post by: Crom
Use Eldrad, there really is no reason not to. Totally worth the points.. Here is how I would run my Eldar, though I don't really play them all that much anymore
2000 Pts - Eldar Roster
HQ: Eldrad Ulthran (1#, 210 pts)
1 Eldrad Ulthran, 210 pts (( pp.50-51 & 61 Eldar); Independent Character; Psyker; Doom ; Eldritch Storm ; Fortune ; Guide ; Mind War ; Divination; Ghosthelm; Rune Armour; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Spirit Stones; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; Staff of Ulthamar)
HQ: Warlock Unit (3#, 112 pts)
1 Warlock Unit, 112 pts
1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Psyker; Enhance ; Fleet; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Singing Spear)
1 Spiritseer (Warlock) ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Psyker; Fleet; Spiritseer Upgrade; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Singing Spear)
1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Psyker; Destructor ; Fleet; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade)
Troops: Dire Avengers (10#, 120 pts)
10 Dire Avengers, 120 pts (( pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)
Troops: Dire Avengers (10#, 120 pts)
10 Dire Avengers, 120 pts (( pp.30 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult)
Elite: Fire Dragons (7#, 238 pts)
5 Fire Dragons, 238 pts (( pp.32 & 62 Eldar); Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs)
1 Fire Dragon Exarch (Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs)
1 Wave Serpent (( pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Tank, Fast); Energy Field; Shuriken Cannon; TL Missile Launchers)
Troops: Guardians (10#, 95 pts)
10 Guardians, 95 pts ((p.39 & p.64 Eldar); Fleet; Shuriken Catapult x10)
1 Weapon Platform (Scatter Laser)
Troops: Guardians (10#, 95 pts)
10 Guardians, 95 pts ((p.39 & p.64 Eldar); Fleet; Shuriken Catapult x10)
1 Weapon Platform (Scatter Laser)
Elite: Wraithguard (7#, 350 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 350 pts (( pp.46 & 62 Eldar); Fearless; Wraithsight; Wraithcannon x5)
1 Wave Serpent (( pp.45 & 63 Eldar); Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Tank, Fast); Energy Field; Star Engines; TL Shuriken Catapults; TL Bright Lances)
1 Warlock ((p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Psyker; Fleet; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade)
Heavy Support: Wraithlord (1#, 170 pts)
1 Wraithlord, 170 pts (( pp.47 & 66 Eldar); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; Wraithsight; Flamer x1; Shuriken Catapult x1; TL Bright Lances)
Heavy Support: Wraithlord (1#, 140 pts)
1 Wraithlord, 140 pts (( pp.47 & 66 Eldar); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; Wraithsight; Flamer x1; Shuriken Catapult x1; TL Missile Launchers)
Heavy Support: War Walker Squadron (3#, 225 pts)
1 War Walker Squadron, 225 pts (( pp.44 & 66 Eldar); Scouts)
1 War Walker (Bright Lance; Missile Launcher)
1 War Walker (Missile Launcher; Bright Lance)
1 War Walker (Scatter Laser; Missile Launcher)
Troops: Pathfinders (Rangers) (5#, 120 pts)
5 Pathfinders (Rangers), 120 pts (( pp.38 & 64 Eldar); Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol x5; Ranger Long Rifle)
Validation Report:
Codex: Eldar Codex 2006; c-1. File Version: 1.20 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules
Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 2 (0 - 3)
Troops: 5 (2 - 6)
Fast: 0 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 3 (0 - 3)
Total Roster Cost: 1995
Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com
2500 points I would add an autarch, another squad of dires, and possibly some close combat troops
44827
Post by: CIAbugguy
Hmm, I am pretty sure the points are right. I went through the codex last night. i included the captian upgrades in the points but not in the descriptions... Ill check it again just to be sure..... Wait no you are right they are completely wrong,, messed it up quite well. thanks
35888
Post by: Crom
CIAbugguy wrote:Hmm, I am pretty sure the points are right. I went through the codex last night. i included the captian upgrades in the points but not in the descriptions... Ill check it again just to be sure..... Wait no you are right they are completely wrong,, messed it up quite well. thanks
I use an army builder program that has all the rules built into the app itself so I cannot make an illegal army. The one I posted I think is pretty rounded. It is definitely more shooting based than anything. Eldar Close combat aren't all that impressive to be honest unless maybe you are playing IG or Tau.
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Post by: Smitty0305
I play Eldar competitively at RTT's and GT events.
I usually come in the top 10%.
Feel free to read my battle reports in my signature/Pm Me questions.
Also look for my Eldar Strat Guide comming out in a few months, 50+ pages of how to win with eldar.
Also Crom's post about an eldar list is a really bad list and something I would suggest not running.
Heres how Eldar Works. You pick 2 from Farseer or Autarch slot. Then you get 3 squads of 5 fire dragons in wave serpents with scatter lasers. Then you get 4 squads of 5 dire avengers in wave serpents with scatter lasers. Then you pick Fire Prisms/Falcons/Night SPinners/War Walkers. You can also run a seer council on jetbikes. Then you dance around the board taking obectives turn 6 and you say "lolimeldarmytanksdontdie"
Thats basically how the army works rofl.
44827
Post by: CIAbugguy
Can someone explain to me what is so horrible about vypers, land speeders only have 10 armour all around but no one ever says dont use those, and I dont have the codex in front of me but war walkers as well have ten armour all around and everyone loves them.... Is there something I am missing?
29585
Post by: AvatarForm
Smitty0305 wrote:
Also look for my Eldar Strat Guide comming out in a few months, 50+ pages of how to win with eldar.
Also Crom's post about an eldar list is a really bad list and something I would suggest not running.
Heres how Eldar Works. You pick 2 from Farseer or Autarch slot. Then you get 3 squads of 5 fire dragons in wave serpents with scatter lasers. Then you get 4 squads of 5 dire avengers in wave serpents with scatter lasers. Then you pick Fire Prisms/Falcons/Night SPinners/War Walkers. You can also run a seer council on jetbikes. Then you dance around the board taking obectives turn 6 and you say "lolimeldarmytanksdontdie"
You are compiling a strat guide? When there are rumours of 6th Ed in the coming year? Left it a bit late didnt you...
As for Eldar Mech lists, these will earn you a 0/5 Comp score in most tourneys you attend.
15930
Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
CIAbugguy wrote:Can someone explain to me what is so horrible about vypers, land speeders only have 10 armour all around but no one ever says dont use those, and I dont have the codex in front of me but war walkers as well have ten armour all around and everyone loves them.... Is there something I am missing?
With pleasure, as this is a pet peeve of mine: compared to vypers, land speeders are BS4, land speeders can deep strike, land speeders can get access to much better twin weapons at cheaper prices, land speeders are not open topped. SM heavy weapons, especially meltaguns and heavy flamers, seem much better suited for a fast deep striking vehicle, especially at such a price. Meanwhile a land speeder with typhoon launcher is much better for its price than an EML or bright lance vyper, when considered as a stand-off shooting platform.
War walkers are better than vypers because they can pack two weapons each and outflank. Also, I suppose close-topped is quite big. But the real difference is 2 weapons, for not nearly double cost. A base war walker without weapons is much cheaper than a vyper, the vyper pays for being a fast skimmer, but that isn't such a huge deal for a shooting platform.
44827
Post by: CIAbugguy
I bounty.. that is some good logic but vypers can also take two weapons like warwalkers. and how new is outflank. cause i have no idea what that is but i read about it all the time
35132
Post by: Smitty0305
AvatarForm wrote:Smitty0305 wrote:
Also look for my Eldar Strat Guide comming out in a few months, 50+ pages of how to win with eldar.
Also Crom's post about an eldar list is a really bad list and something I would suggest not running.
Heres how Eldar Works. You pick 2 from Farseer or Autarch slot. Then you get 3 squads of 5 fire dragons in wave serpents with scatter lasers. Then you get 4 squads of 5 dire avengers in wave serpents with scatter lasers. Then you pick Fire Prisms/Falcons/Night SPinners/War Walkers. You can also run a seer council on jetbikes. Then you dance around the board taking obectives turn 6 and you say "lolimeldarmytanksdontdie"
You are compiling a strat guide? When there are rumours of 6th Ed in the coming year? Left it a bit late didnt you...
As for Eldar Mech lists, these will earn you a 0/5 Comp score in most tourneys you attend.
I doubt HEAVILY than 6th edition will be out in the next year. Regardless if 6th edition does come out, the Eldar Guide wont be irrelevant until a new Eldar codex comes out, which is years away. Not to mention current Eldar Guides dont talk about any of the units or new army editions that have come out in the past year and a half, I would think that a guide describing the CURRENT meta game is needed, hence why this thread itself proves my point.
Every competitive army will earn you a 0/5 comp score, I dont see your point here and very rare is the tournament that even has comp scores.
35888
Post by: Crom
Yeah my Eldar army is from 2nd Ed. Not really wanting to drop cash on 6 wave serpents for an army i barely play. I'll stick with my IG, Orks, and Marines. Eldar can be competitive but I think that their point value for what you get isn't the greatest.
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Post by: Avariel
Eldar can be a competitive army but only if the tournament is win loss and not battle points. Eldar doesn't have enough firepower get massacres in kill points and it can be hard to nab enough objectives to get a massacre as well. Eldar competitiveness really depends on the points value. Eldar really does better at 1500 win/loss tournaments. High points they get overwhelmed by cheap many small units armies.
15930
Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
CIAbugguy wrote:I bounty.. that is some good logic but vypers can also take two weapons like warwalkers. and how new is outflank. cause i have no idea what that is but i read about it all the time
Outflank is an ability granted by having the scouts or infiltrate special rules. You can stay in reserve, but come in on the short table edges. It has a lot of utility for assault units (lets them spring out on enemies quickly) and for shooting units (targetting side or rear armour, and a sort of guaranteed first shot at the enemy).
Vypers can't take 2 weapons, they can take 2 shuriken cannons. Big difference, it means they are limited to 24" range. Which is precisely where AV10 opentopped vehicles don't want to be. I know I praised multi-meltas and heavy flamers on SM landspeeders. But those are very destructive weapons, capable of doing a lot of damage in one shot, making risky tactics worth it. Whereas all the eldar weapons are better for staying at long range.
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Post by: wuestenfux
No matter how you put it, Eldar has some glaring weaknesses.
They can win RTTs (as I did last time) but generally not GTs.
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Post by: CIAbugguy
Thanks I bounty, i think i will steer clear of Vypers for the unforseen future, and outflanking sounds quite useful.
44890
Post by: Helvost
If you're going to play a mechdar army i would be careful with your war walkers. With them being the lightest armoured target that also can't move fast they attract alot of fire. Don't rely on them doing alot of damage past turn 2 because they probably will be pretty beat-up. Also I have found running almost everything you have in tanks in pairs is great. Go for killing in one attack not damaging.
If you decide to run DA's i would run them in groups of 2 squads with one doom/guide farseer and mounted in wave serpents. This eliminates getting counter assaulted which is very very bad. Your DA's that get guided (assuming you bladestorm) can get up to about 24 wounds with some slightly above average rolling. That will get the majority of a 10 man MEQ squad. The other squad can finish off the other ones because that target is still doomed(which helps tremendously at a toughness 4 or higher target).
Fire Dragons at squads of 5 or 6 can blow up any tank in the game. But if you bring a little more of them with your extra points you could target infantry too and probably wipe a squad (assuming you double them up with about a 7 man squad) it should be very very deadly.
The lists I run now depending on cost of the game have 20 to 40 DA, 2 six to seven man squads of Fire Dragons,
1-2 Doom/Guide Seers, all in wave serpents and then 3 war walkers with scatter lasers(I would bring 2 squads if I had them).
A general tactic is to pick your fight. IMO Mechdar lets you do this best with the 2nd best mobility in the game and one of the best transports.
Unfortunately the lists can get kind of repetitive. Without our updated codex we're limited to certain strategies that work.
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Post by: Murenius
About that army list above, I'd drop the vypers and some war walkers and instead think about taking a falcon or two and/or fire prisms.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
JGrand wrote:So it is more of a tactical army, any specific units i should try to avoid?
Loads.
HQ- Any Phoenix Lord is a huge mistake. You will likely want at least 1 Seer, probably Eldrad at higher points levels. So, basically how the other choice fits (if it does) is important.
Elites- Harlies are crap. I personally don't think that Banshees and Scorpions are all that great. As counter assault...maybe. As an active assault unit, no. There is no way to deliver them. Wraith Guard are pretty bad as well. Basically Fire Dragon spam in this slot.
Troops-I don't think any are actually good. DA are overcosted. Guardians are pretty meh. Bikes are expensive as well. Min squads in Serpents is the way to go.
Fast Attack- I don't know that anything is really "good" here. Vypers can be used. Spiders...maybe. Shining Spears are trash. This stuff suffers all suffers from being highly overcosted (a common theme).
Heavy Support-People swear by Prisms and Falcons. In theory they are better than in practice. Falcons can be tough to kill if used right. Prisms really lack punch. War Walkers are good. The rest is kinda bad. Reapers aren't that good because they are entirely geared to anti MEQ out of transports and outside cover. Support Weapons aren't great either either.
Not to be too cynical but the codex is really limited. Successful Eldar are down to a mono-build.
Very little of this advice is actually valid...
Wraithguard are an excellent unit, and especially useful when facing other eldar armies (ignore wave serpent fields), Necrons(ignore living metal), etc. etc. When taken in Squads of 10 as troops, they are a brick wall (especially with a nearby fortuneseer).
DA are overpriced, but they are very capable units. Ditto bikes.
Spiders are an awesome unit, even for the cost, and can usually be relied on to make back their points.
Falcons and Prisms are both great, as is the nightspinner. In fact, the Fire Prism is the only really long range AT in the army. Reapers are great simply for pumping out three tempest launcher shots from the exarch per turn. Support Weapons w/ D-cannons are also an awesome units. I have run at least half of these "lame" units with great success.
As for the Nightspinner, I believe if you look at the rules its stamped official, etc. and made quite clear that it should be counted as part of the codex.
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Post by: Field Gen
Eldar are one of the most broken armies in the game! Right next to Space Wolves, I.G and Grey Knights/
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Field Gen - thats not true. Eldar are pretty well balanced, the only exception being the fortunejetseer council of doom, which very few people take because of its obscene cost.
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Post by: Field Gen
Yeah, Fortune and Doom as well as them being able to shut down "Any" other Psyker list...period!
As well as the most powerful snipers in the game with +2 cover saves which is far better than anyone else.
One of the most powerful CC monsters in the game. Stinging scorpions and Harlequins being VERY hard to deal with as well as Very difficult to shoot down ships because you have to roll two dice for damage and take the lowest and even re rolling that as well.
Solid Basic Troops and the jet bikes you mentioned.
I don't know what eldar players you have but all of mine spam the crap outa that jet bike thing because it does not matter if its high cost its worth every penny and each of them are vetrean players of eldar. They know how to use them well!
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Yeah, its a good thing Eldar can shut down other psykers... keeps us from having to suffer Jaws of the World Wolf and all the other nonsense psychic abilities that the rest of the game can throw around...
2+ cover saves? Take a (heavy)flamer, problem solved.
What is the most powerful cc monster you speak of? Wraithlord? Not really, they just don't die...
Avatar? Not that difficult to kill...
Those fortunejetseer councils ain't hard to kill, hit them with s8 ap3 weapons or better and you'll be instagibbing units left and right vs. their 4+ invul save. Yes, its rerollable, but its way easier to kill them than it is a unit of plaguemarines.
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Post by: AvatarForm
Smitty0305 wrote:
I doubt HEAVILY than 6th edition will be out in the next year. Regardless if 6th edition does come out, the Eldar Guide wont be irrelevant until a new Eldar codex comes out, which is years away. Not to mention current Eldar Guides dont talk about any of the units or new army editions that have come out in the past year and a half, I would think that a guide describing the CURRENT meta game is needed, hence why this thread itself proves my point.
Every competitive army will earn you a 0/5 comp score, I dont see your point here and very rare is the tournament that even has comp scores.
Actually, a BRB will make it redundant.
Your current meta is not the same as someone's LOCAL meta... hence, guides that are specific are not always useful.
Comp scores are in many AUS tournaments.
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Post by: DAaddict
As far as your list. 3 WW with EML sounds too cheap. I think you would be better served by 2x scatter lasers but I think they cost 180 for a squadron of 3. Are you only buying one EML for your walkers?
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Post by: Murenius
chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, its a good thing Eldar can shut down other psykers... keeps us from having to suffer Jaws of the World Wolf and all the other nonsense psychic abilities that the rest of the game can throw around...
2+ cover saves? Take a (heavy)flamer, problem solved.
What is the most powerful cc monster you speak of? Wraithlord? Not really, they just don't die...
Avatar? Not that difficult to kill...
Those fortunejetseer councils ain't hard to kill, hit them with s8 ap3 weapons or better and you'll be instagibbing units left and right vs. their 4+ invul save. Yes, its rerollable, but its way easier to kill them than it is a unit of plaguemarines.
Of course you can name something that works against a specific unit/item/rule, if there was one that can't be overcome in some way the game would be broken. But the question is: has the opponent those tools available in his army and can he bring them to the point where they can be used? And can you keep him from doing so? That's the whole point. The dynamics of an actual game with a specific setting of own and enemy units is far more complex than "2+ cover is crap cause someone can use flamers".
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Post by: chaos0xomega
If you can't kill them with flamers or similar ignores cover weapons, which I think is only like 2 armies in the game that don't have access to such weapons, then you can kill them pretty easily in melee.
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Post by: CIAbugguy
Yeah, the warwalkers and vypers were screwed up point wise, the squad is 210 a piece. ill run that with some dire and fire dragons with a few guide seers.
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Post by: forruner_mercy
Field Gen wrote:Eldar are one of the most broken armies in the game! Right next to Space Wolves, I.G and Grey Knights/
How are IG broken?
Also, does the term "broken" mean something along the lines of overpowered? Or the opposite?
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Post by: Crom
what sucks about vehicle squads that have armor value is that if they are immobilized they are destroyed. That is why Ork bikes are great because they just have a toughness value and a cover save!
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Post by: Droofus
chaos0xomega wrote:If you can't kill them with flamers or similar ignores cover weapons, which I think is only like 2 armies in the game that don't have access to such weapons, then you can kill them pretty easily in melee.
True, but those things are awfully short range. The Pathfinders will have had a few turns by the time those flamers get there. Also, I've seen Eldar players lure people close with the pathfinders on an objective, only to hose the enemy down with fire or a nasty counter-assault.
And you're awfully dismissive of the Jet Council. I've seen that unit go through whole armies (including mine) on several occasions. They are hugely expensive, but they can and do win games.
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Post by: EldarCorsair
I've tested lots of lists with my eldar army using proxies if necessary, and so far the elements that stand out against the armies I play against (MEQs 90% of the time, and generally vanilla marines), I've found a few tactics that work wonders.
#1 Eldrad. The only reason not to use him is if you need a cheaper farseer. For anything over 1250, he is great. He is tactically flexible for every situation and a must for a competitive army of any kind.
#2 Dark Reapers Squad. Despite the high per model cost for the regular reapers, the exarch is purely murderous! You can twin link his 2 shot tempest launcher with guide, then crack shot lets him reroll wound and skip cover saves. It's also a guess weapon so you can fire it indirectly. When I use this unit, the 4 standard reapers are fodder and I don't even care about their shots, the exarch will easily kill whole squads on his own. I once killed 8 khorne berserkers that popped out of a destroyed rhino with just the exarch. I average 4 kills per turn even when not 100% optimal (when the enemy has staggered for templates). It's even worth it to keep him totally out of LOS if possible and forgoe the other reapers just to keep him safe and alive.
Most people judge the squad by the regular reapers, which perform poorly due to nonstop cover saves in 5th edition. I've almost always made back my points, and almost every kill comes from the Exarch.
#3 Fire Dragons. The fusion gun is the best anti-tank for the eldar, but also great at killing terminators and really any MEQ style troops. You only need 5-6 if mounted, making them very cheap. They work best if they can also assault the vehicle in case the guns dont work.
Really I think Eldrad is what makes the Eldar competetive, as he can change the battlefield so much and seems to go beyond the math of the game. During the game I played today against a deathstar SM army, Eldrad killed a librarian with mind war, kept my gaurdians alive with a reroll cover save, protected his falcon grav tank from destruction, and during the 5th turn of the game, made himself nearly invincible by fortuning himself for a 3+ reroll invo and fought calgar one on one, as well as doomed the final honor guard so the whole squad was wiped by my howling banshees.
In the last round, he even killed Calgar himself with his staff, having dealt two wounds while taking none.
All and all, I would say he was responsible for killing well over 600 points worth of models during the game, either himself or indirectly with doom, as well as protecting at least half of that amount with fortune. That isn't even counting the twin linked shots and other minor boons.
Unbelievable really! You should have seen the look on the other guy's face when eldrad bested calgar in close combat!
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Post by: Altayre
In my opinion, forums realy encourage just looking at the list, not so much the tactics, and when you do that you're obviously only gonna come up with a few amazing concepts and see the rest as crap.
Mechdar gets to me because it's all most people think can win. Sure our units seem overpriced, but as others have mentioned, it's not about killing your points worth. So many units become way more than what you pay for them when you combine. I think our tanks are amazing, and definitely pivotal to a lot of tactics, but by no means should they need to be spammed to be any good.
Over and over again I read things like "pathfinders are wayy too much of a point sink for the damage they cause", "swooping hawks don't have the firepower or survivability", "guardians are useless with a poor BS and range and bad armour save" etc... trying out units for yourself shows you just how you can develop a playstyle to make any unit useful, and i think that's what forum list-posting takes away from.
I've had 20 strong guardians in the middle of a board survive 3 turns of shooting, giving the rest of my army the freedom to move, pathfinders infiltrate to the wrong edge for the enemy, knowing he will have to waste several turns to get close enough to reliably hurt them with flamers/ CC, and on the flip side, i've had dragons get shot down whithout having had the chance to do anything, dire avengers bladestorm a squad only to be utterly destroyed by that same squad before they can retreat.
Work out what you like, play proxy games to find out how it feels and work on your own list! after all, any eldar general knows the fastest way to learn what does/doesn't work, is by getting your face pummelled for your first 20 games 
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Post by: labmouse42
schadenfreude wrote:
Now time for my minority opinion.
Shadow weavers > Fire prisims.
Their different tools. Night spinners excel in the following tasks.
Plan Disruption
A spinneris great at disrupting opponents plans, much like playing blue in magic the gathering.
A mob of 30 orks is disrupted when they lose 6 to dangerous terrain tests in addition to the units killed under the blast.
A squad of 10 fleeting shrike terminators or a wolfstar will be forced to slow down and move only 1 model to minimize expensive causalities. Losing a turn of movement with a death star in a 5-7 turn game is a large hindrance.
Hitting transports and vehicles that need to move is also an excellent use of hindering plans. A LC has an extremely low chance of destroying a AV 14 crusader full of termies, but a night spinner has a 1/6 chance of immobolizing it, making the vehicle nigh-useless.
Anti-Horde
Lets face it, a large STR 6 pie plate is just good against hordes. Be it gaunts, IG foot soldiers, or orks. A well rounded army should have a solution to handle hordes, and the spinner helps to fill that role.
Accurate
My simhammer puts a twin-linked large pie plate with BS 3 at about a ~90% accuracy ratio to hit a vehicle. There is a 55% of getting a 'hit' under the scatter dice, and you have two chances to stay on target with your scatter dice. This means that against infantry its possible to scatter around an inch or three, but you should be in the same ballpark.
This is a nice change for otherwise lack-luster BS 3 guardians/vehicles.
Fire Prisms can be utilized for anti-horde, or for anti-tank. Instead of plan disruption, two of them are good at delivering a STR 10, AP1 highly accurate shot where it needs to be.
Overall, I don't think one is better than the other, they just fill different roles. As I play with 3 squads of dragons, and 6 serpents with scatter lasers, vehicles have not been my biggest problem. Currently I play with 2 prisms and 1 spinner, but I may change that up a little bit to test out more spinners.
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Post by: Custom Minis
Eldar have always been pretty fun and hard to play.
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Post by: coolkidroc
I've been playing Eldar for a couple years now, and I've narrowed down my list quite a bit to a hybrid of foot and mech and I love it. It's fun to play, you have more then 10 models on the board, and I've won the last 3 tournaments it's gone to, GT and local, and it's undefeated in casual play.
http://thewraithgate.blogspot.com/2011/04/are-eldar-still-competitive.html
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Post by: Field Gen
chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, its a good thing Eldar can shut down other psykers... keeps us from having to suffer Jaws of the World Wolf and all the other nonsense psychic abilities that the rest of the game can throw around...
2+ cover saves? Take a (heavy)flamer, problem solved.
What is the most powerful cc monster you speak of? Wraithlord? Not really, they just don't die...
Avatar? Not that difficult to kill...
Those fortunejetseer councils ain't hard to kill, hit them with s8 ap3 weapons or better and you'll be instagibbing units left and right vs. their 4+ invul save. Yes, its rerollable, but its way easier to kill them than it is a unit of plaguemarines.
Bull Crap! I have seen multiple times where that council, The avatar and anything else under the influence of Fortune Take 5,10 and even twenty Inv Saves and not take a single wound on any of them.
Once a player with eldar figures out how to work jetbikes, How to spam Fortune and Abuse their special rules. They are one of the most diffucult and hardest to deal with armies ever!
Right next to Large Squads of Dark Eldar Bikers. Once someone masters those it simple declaring. Oh well I will just shoot them all with my gun that can easily kill them argument is no longer valid.
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Post by: coolkidroc
You're just doing a lot of whining about someone getting lucky. Fortune on a 4+ invuln statistically will fail 25% of the time. That is a worse save then Terminator armor, so you must think anything with Termy armour is practically invincible and broken as hell.
Councils are huge points sinks, can't kill things in close combat because they have very few attacks, and no power weapons. They can get tied up quite easily, and will die to torrent of fire faster then Terminators, sure you can go against someone with some good dice rolls and that'll happen from time to time and it doesn't take fortune to survive if dice are on your side.
Fortune isn't broken, no more then most anything else is. I don't know what army you're playing but there are plenty of things that can stop it, Hoods are great, Null Zone is great, Send a unit of plague marines in there, neither unit will ever die, psyker battle squad them to LD 2 and then kill one or two and watch them run off the board. Lots of ways to get around them.
Field Gen wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, its a good thing Eldar can shut down other psykers... keeps us from having to suffer Jaws of the World Wolf and all the other nonsense psychic abilities that the rest of the game can throw around...
2+ cover saves? Take a (heavy)flamer, problem solved.
What is the most powerful cc monster you speak of? Wraithlord? Not really, they just don't die...
Avatar? Not that difficult to kill...
Those fortunejetseer councils ain't hard to kill, hit them with s8 ap3 weapons or better and you'll be instagibbing units left and right vs. their 4+ invul save. Yes, its rerollable, but its way easier to kill them than it is a unit of plaguemarines.
Bull Crap! I have seen multiple times where that council, The avatar and anything else under the influence of Fortune Take 5,10 and even twenty Inv Saves and not take a single wound on any of them.
Once a player with eldar figures out how to work jetbikes, How to spam Fortune and Abuse their special rules. They are one of the most diffucult and hardest to deal with armies ever!
Right next to Large Squads of Dark Eldar Bikers. Once someone masters those it simple declaring. Oh well I will just shoot them all with my gun that can easily kill them argument is no longer valid.
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Post by: labmouse42
Field Gen wrote:Bull Crap! I have seen multiple times where that council, The avatar and anything else under the influence of Fortune Take 5,10 and even twenty Inv Saves and not take a single wound on any of them.
Once a player with eldar figures out how to work jetbikes, How to spam Fortune and Abuse their special rules. They are one of the most diffucult and hardest to deal with armies ever!
Eldar Jetbikes, with fortune, have a 75% invlun save and a 8/9 normal save (~90%). Compare those to TH/ SS termies, which have a 66% invun, and 84% normal save, the eldar bikers top out as the units with the best save in the game.
Combine that with witch blades on every model, a 24" turbo boost ability, the ability to move another 6" in the assault phase, and warlock powers, and you have a top notch unit. This unit excels when you use it against units with low armor saves (think orks, IG, or nids). Its also highly effective against high toughness opponents with decent saves, such as termigons. The sheer number of wounds will kill the creature.
All of this will grow even more powerful with the next edition of 40k, which is rumored to allow witch blades the ability to insta-kill like a force weapon. Owch! Automatically Appended Next Post: coolkidroc wrote:You're just doing a lot of whining about someone getting lucky. Fortune on a 4+ invuln statistically will fail 25% of the time. That is a worse save then Terminator armor, so you must think anything with Termy armour is practically invincible and broken as hell.
They have a normal save of 3+ on bikes giving them better saves than on termies. This means your comment about dying a a torrent of fire faster than terminators is mathematically incorrect.
coolkidroc wrote:Councils are huge points sinks, can't kill things in close combat because they have very few attacks, and no power weapons.
Your using them wrong. Either your going after the wrong targets with them, or you are forgetting that one of their best powers is the ability to bog down enemies.
The thing about the seer bike squad is that you cant just ignore them. If you try, the witchblades rip up vehicles like their covered in wrapping paper. Their speed will allow them to target whatever they need to for maximum effect.
I'm not saying their a god unit, just that their a good one that must be delt with, which is an advantage to the eldar player. Automatically Appended Next Post: Look at the year that blog was written.
In 2009, the meta was all about "Melta is king", and so people's anti-vehicle weapons generally were 12" to 24" in range. When that is the case, you could keep a squad of vypers in relative safety through careful placement. 3 years ago, Vulcan was the way that people wanted to play.
Today, people are bringing more long range AT to handle targets like valkaries and stormravens. BA, IG, and GK are much more common and Vulcan lists are much less common.
There was merit to the blog army list when it was created in 2009, but today is a different story, and that list would get tore up. Automatically Appended Next Post: AvatarForm wrote:As for Eldar Mech lists, these will earn you a 0/5 Comp score in most tourneys you attend.
Why is this? The eldar are a race with advanced technology and few bodies. Having as many in vehicles as possible fits the fluff quite well.
If people give them a 0/5 comp, its just because they did not want to play eldar in a tourney.
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Post by: DAaddict
AvatarForm wrote:
You are compiling a strat guide? When there are rumours of 6th Ed in the coming year? Left it a bit late didnt you...
As for Eldar Mech lists, these will earn you a 0/5 Comp score in most tourneys you attend.
I would not 0/5 an eldar 1850 list that was all meched up and ran some variation. (i.e. not all 5-man dragons and 5-man DA) I probably wouldn't 0 of 5 any list but I would probably ding an army of min-maxed waveserpent and fire dragons. But how is that any worse than a 3 x ML long-fang army or a leaf blower guard army?
As stated, it does fit the fluff of the eldar to have a meched up army - just not all 5-man units to maximize the number of serpents. Run 2 or 3 DA units of 10 and I won't ding you even if you run the 3x firedragons. I understand why they need to run it and am not going to 0 comp score somebody for running it.
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Post by: blaktoof
its pretty ignorant to state that you will get a 0/5 for comp for having a transport for each unit... seriously. I would disregard all of whomever said that statements opinions, for serious.
anyways Eldar are still a viable army, and in 5th edition nits usually more viable to be in a transport than walking on foot. Modern military operations do not send foot units from base to do something... just saying.
considering there are still rumors of Witch hunters, tau, and necrons coming I doubt 6th is anytime soon, as many of the other codexes are still not updated.
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