In the Horus Heresy the space wolves are always described as the most barbaric, savage and most dangerous legion. However the world eaters are described in the same way and imo the world eaters are more dangerous. So this leads me to wonder why the space wolves are the excecutioners instead of the world eaters. Why are world eaters not the excecutioners ?

Why don't you let wild animals be executioners?

Simple answer: no discipline.

Space Wolves, while being headstrong, actually can control their urges and desires.

World Eaters physically cannot because of the tech that Angron had grafted to them all.

Execution implies a plan. World Eaters are butchers. Their plan is land and kill everything.

That's very similar to the Space Wolves Heresy tactics.

iproxtaco wrote:That's very similar to the Space Wolves Heresy tactics.

It only looks similar. They're motivation was quite different, and that's what really matters.

But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

They can turn on you anytime. And they are obedient to the letter.

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

Incredibly ruthless, cunning and completely obedient.

Angron's legion in their current incarnation seem much more singleminded. The wolves seem to embrace all aspects of warfare with a particular flare for close up brutality. The World Eaters are close combat shock troopers ONLY. They are peerless in that role, but that role is not all of warfare. At least, that's my take on it. In reality, the answer is probably more along the lines of a retroactive explanation of why the Wolves were sent after the Thousand Sons.

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

Lack of personal hygiene...

I was reading Age of Darkness and in the story "reborn" the thousand son says the only thing worse than the space wolves is Angrons berserkers.

moonshine wrote:I was reading Age of Darkness and in the story "reborn" the thousand son says the only thing worse than the space wolves is Angrons berserkers.

The World eaters are unbound in their destruction. they are unhinged, there is no reason to their bloodshed (unless you count adding to Khornes head count a reason)

The Space Wolves are disciplined in their butchery and surgical in their brutality, they are subtle in their carnage. They put on a show because that is what is expected of 'savages'.

Pick up a copy of Prospero Burns to get some idea of the Wolves strategy and planning for the long game.

I read Prospero burns but it never actually says anything about the battle for prospero apart from when the remembrancer gets confused and gets attacked by tzeentch.

I just can't understand why space wolves are considered the most dangerous legion, in prospero burns they were getting they're ass kicked until the oblivion knights showed up.

And also why are space wolves considered most dangerous ? In Blood reaver (or possibly soul hunter) night lords are said to be most dangerous whilst in other novels world eaters are described as most dangerous.

Oh and who would win in a fight : Angron vs Russ ?

I think both legions are supposed to be executioners, but space wolves are more focues and obedient while world eaters are sent in if everything must be killed, not just the enemy.

moonshine wrote:I read Prospero burns but it never actually says anything about the battle for prospero apart from when the remembrancer gets confused and gets attacked by tzeentch.

I just can't understand why space wolves are considered the most dangerous legion, in prospero burns they were getting they're ass kicked until the oblivion knights showed up.

And also why are space wolves considered most dangerous ? In Blood reaver (or possibly soul hunter) night lords are said to be most dangerous whilst in other novels world eaters are described as most dangerous.

Oh and who would win in a fight : Angron vs Russ ?

It was rumoured before the HH series that The wolves were created as an Anti Astartes force and It is inferred in the HH series that Russ and his legion were pretty instrumental in taking down one of the missing legions.

In Prospero Burns and according to the Horus beast the Space wolves and Thousand sons were going to be the best of the emperors tools for stopping Chaos - Mastery of the warp in the Thousand Sons and martial prowess with the Wolves. That is why the agents of chaos angled for them to be pitted against each other, hoping they would wipe each other out.

But basically to sell books each legion/chapter is 'most pwoerful evar!' except for the Ultras, they are bestest - according to the BL.

Personally I would rather face a Beserker coming towards me than sit and wait for a Son of Russ to bring about my demise.

Russ for the win.











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Mr Nobody wrote:I think both legions are supposed to be executioners, but space wolves are more focues and obedient while world eaters are sent in if everything must be killed, not just the enemy.

The World eaters get sanctioned for their excesses. They go above and beyond their remit in butchering everyone.

Angron. The most combat oriented of all the Primarchs. Russ's duel with Magnus is a failry good example of his poor fighting abilities.

iproxtaco wrote: Russ's duel with Magnus is a failry good example of his poor fighting abilities.

You mean the duel that Russ won without injury?

The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

iproxtaco wrote:The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

Would ~Angron have done better?
Russ was being hit with sorcery at the time IIRC so i'm not sure if Angron could have done better.

iproxtaco wrote:The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

So, Russ walked away completely uninjured, and Magnus was dead. You interpret this as Russ being "hopelessly out-classed"?

You've a strange perspective.

Not quite. I read the book, Russ was hopelessly outclassed until he scored a lucky strike on Magnus's weak spot as he flailed wildly whilst Magnus had the extreme upper hand. Who performed better? Magnus. Russ won due to a lucky attack, not due to superior skill.


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purplefood wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

Would ~Angron have done better?
Russ was being hit with sorcery at the time IIRC so i'm not sure if Angron could have done better.

He's bigger, and stronger, with more endurance, likely better with his weapons, being a shock trooper and Gladiator. Not sure if he would have done better, as Russ won due to luck more than skill.

iproxtaco wrote:Not quite. I read the book, Russ was hopelessly outclassed until he scored a lucky strike on Magnus's weak spot as he flailed wildly whilst Magnus had the extreme upper hand. Who performed better? Magnus. Russ won due to a lucky attack, not due to superior skill.

Didn't Magnus also have a power boost from Tzeentch by that point?

Not from what I can gather from the book.

Angron is the most physically dominating of all the Primarchs, IIRC it was said that only Horus and possibly Sanguinius could best him in physical combat.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron is the most physically dominating of all the Primarchs, IIRC it was said that only Horus and possibly Sanguinius could best him in physical combat.

It was said that Horus and Sanguinus could best the Emperor in training if he didn't use his powers. I'm not sure where Angron was on the scale of abilities I'd say pretty high, but his rage would hold him back, IMO, in any one on one fight

Yeah, I can't remember where I read it, but I heard the same, that the only primarchs that could beat Angron in combat were Horus and possibly Sanguinius.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron is the most physically dominating of all the Primarchs, IIRC it was said that only Horus and possibly Sanguinius could best him in physical combat.

It was also said that Leman Russ and his bodyguard could kill any other primarch and their body guard.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron is the most physically dominating of all the Primarchs, IIRC it was said that only Horus and possibly Sanguinius could best him in physical combat.

It was also said that Leman Russ and his bodyguard could kill any other primarch and their body guard.

My primarch has a bigger chainsword than yours!

iproxtaco wrote:Not quite. I read the book, Russ was hopelessly outclassed until he scored a lucky strike on Magnus's weak spot as he flailed wildly whilst Magnus had the extreme upper hand. Who performed better? Magnus. Russ won due to a lucky attack, not due to superior skill.


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purplefood wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

Would ~Angron have done better?
Russ was being hit with sorcery at the time IIRC so i'm not sure if Angron could have done better.

He's bigger, and stronger, with more endurance, likely better with his weapons, being a shock trooper and Gladiator. Not sure if he would have done better, as Russ won due to luck more than skill.

On the battlefield Luck is as good as any skill. And if you do go on record it is Russ 1 and big giant red eye zip.

And it's not a way to measure the skill of an opponent. He got a lucky strike after Magus hit him with a blast of energy. Not exactly a tell tale sign of a skilled combatant.

Space wolves.

Do not question the decision of Big E!

iproxtaco wrote:And it's not a way to measure the skill of an opponent. He got a lucky strike after Magus hit him with a blast of energy. Not exactly a tell tale sign of a skilled combatant.

Walking away from the fight completely uninjured while the opponent was dead is though.

It's ironic because during the Horus Heresy, Russ and his legion was one of the biggest jerks in canon (especially what happened with Prospero), but in the current setting, they actually make decent good guys. Comparatively of course.

Plus pg 27 of the space wolves codex bottom right hand corner, states that the only being to ever best Russ was the Big E, so ( the lion tied him, in that fight) Angron would have either tied him to or lost top Russ .

Grey elder wrote:Plus pg 27 of the space wolves codex bottom right hand corner, states that the only being to ever best Russ was the Big E, so ( the lion tied him, in that fight) Angron would have either tied him to or lost top Russ .

Or Angron just never fought Russ.

Since it was never confirmed he had.

I cannot really convey how crappy your logic really is. Even if the Emperor was the only being ever to best Russ, that does not mean others could not, only that Russ was never fought by such beings.

Space Wolves are more dangerous because of their tatic suse and rune use.

DarknessEternal wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And it's not a way to measure the skill of an opponent. He got a lucky strike after Magus hit him with a blast of energy. Not exactly a tell tale sign of a skilled combatant.

Walking away from the fight completely uninjured while the opponent was dead is though.

Completely uninjured? Why would you think that? Russ was stabbed, his chest plate crushed, he was beaten and bloodied, his wolves certainly killed, compared to a slash on Magnus's eye and a broken arm. How did he win? Luck. That's no measure of skill.


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Grey elder wrote:Plus pg 27 of the space wolves codex bottom right hand corner, states that the only being to ever best Russ was the Big E, so ( the lion tied him, in that fight) Angron would have either tied him to or lost top Russ .

The Lion dominated Russ. He threw him through a table and then punched him unconscious. No luck involved, just strength.

DarknessEternal wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And it's not a way to measure the skill of an opponent. He got a lucky strike after Magus hit him with a blast of energy. Not exactly a tell tale sign of a skilled combatant.

Walking away from the fight completely uninjured while the opponent was dead is though.

What? Russ got injured plenty and was on the verge of losing, until that lucky strike.
Looking through the book right now he: Burned his hair,cracked his breastplate with ceramite apparentlly piercing the skin, got a "blade of pure thought" pierced through his chest and struck out blindly as Magnus apparentlly hit him with some psychic attack which ended the bout

As for the topic, well Russ is a savage, but hes a cunning savage.
Angron is mindless, which was used against him on Isstavan, where they took advantage of the fact that the World Eaters only ever attacked head on without subtlety

It would come down to who was able to dictate the type of fight. Look at the duel between Curze and El'Jonson. Who was winning changed drastically when one primarch changed they style of the fight.

iproxtaco wrote:
The Lion dominated Russ. He threw him through a table and then punched him unconscious. No luck involved, just strength.

Oh please. They fought tooth and nail for at least a full day, and neither could get the upper hand. Then Russ realised the stupidity of their fight and stopped fighting. Then the Lion suckerpunched him when he wasn't looking due to laughing. Hardly "dominated" him.

Also, Russ is the only Primarch ever to have bested Horus. I think he could manage Angron.

Throwing him through a table and then punching him unconscious is a fairly dominating move to make.

Source for the second point though, never heard of Russ and Horus fighting, let alone Russ besting Horus, or even being the only one to be able of the feat.

You may want to work on your quoting, I'm still not sure if you're the one replying.

iproxtaco wrote:Throwing him through a table and then punching him unconscious is a fairly dominating move to make.

Source for the second point though, never heard of Russ and Horus fighting, let alone Russ besting Horus, or even being the only one to be able of the feat.

According to 1d4chan, Russ beat Horus in a duel.

But that's 4chan, even what is actually true there is without context and often exagerrated, not even counting the lies.

I also don't recall Horus being considered exceptionally powerful in personal combat (Relative to the other Primarchs of course), at least before he became the vessel for Chaos.

When Russ starts laughing about the fight and the Lion throws a sucker punch like a girl. That is dominating? I never knew that. And I never heard of Russ fighting Horus.

SwiftLord14 wrote:When Russ starts laughing about the fight and the Lion throws a sucker punch like a girl. That is dominating? I never knew that. And I never heard of Russ fighting Horus.

Knocked Russ out like he was a chump.

Lion's fist=Emperor with Power Fist.

A sucker punch which knocked him unconscious for a day after throwing him through a table is fair domination, I think you're in denial. Maybe domination is too strong a word to use. The Lion soundly bested him.

A sucker punch is a sucker punch. He got ticked off and hit him. I guess all the primarchs couldn't have been as laid back and cool as Russ.

So I'm correct in saying you're in denial?
Ever heard of Magnus and The Thousand Sons and that whole incident on Propsero? Yeah, Russ wasn't really that laid back.

Your profile picture makes it clear that you would support the space wolves

The lion beat russ fair and square, yes some other primarchs would be able to knock him out but Jhonson was just better than russ, Jhonson also beat curze aswell.

O I've read the books. Magnus just laid there a took it until the end. He almost got The Wolf King but I'd rather follow a lucky Sergeant then a skillful one. Magnus got beat again after that too. And he tried to come back AGAIN and got messed up AGAIN by Ragnar. I mean come on now. He can keep coming back but the Wolves will always be there to stomp his a**. And denial? Not so much brojangles. And Russ was ticked off because Magnus can't listen and do what ever he wants. DOUCHE


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And yes Moonshine i do support them hahaha

Right so Magnus trying to do the right thing makes him a Douche ?

Anyway Wolves are boring, both in 40k and the ones we have on earth today.

SwiftLord14 wrote:O I've read the books. Magnus just laid there a took it until the end. He almost got The Wolf King but I'd rather follow a lucky Sergeant then a skillful one. Magnus got beat again after that too. And he tried to come back AGAIN and got messed up AGAIN by Ragnar. I mean come on now. He can keep coming back but the Wolves will always be there to stomp his a**. And denial? Not so much brojangles. And Russ was ticked off because Magnus can't listen and do what ever he wants. DOUCHE

Russ was only supposed to bring Magnus in to the Emperor for questioning. Instead, he listened to the words of a traitor and almost wiped out a loyalist Legion.

Space Wolves have purpose, they are unrelenting and it is this which sets them ahead of the other legions when people say they are the "most dangerous" or whatever. It is the flaw within the World Eaters and their primarch, "angry ron" which makes them second best. The fact they loose their cool, whilst the wolves can create as much carnage but maintain their temper... making them "more dangerous" because they do it deliberately, the zerks can't help themselves.

Still, Angry Ron fro the win...

Who wasn't tricked by Horus? He did play into Russ' temper and did what he had to do. +1 to Horus. And when your Dad/Commander tells you to not do something you better not. That's what gave him the douche statues. That's how i feel though. And hey wolves we have are AWESOME!

Most Primarchs weren't tricked in the way Russ was.

iproxtaco wrote:Most Primarchs weren't tricked in the way Russ was.

Incorrect, nearly all of them were. Many even had similar consequences as well, like Night Haunter and Perturabo.

In Prospero Burns, it is clearly stated by the Wolves that having 'vast amounts of self-control allow us to be this dangerous'. Clearly this is written proof of who is most dangerous. World Eaters are dangerous, but predictable, where you know what's coming. With the Wolves, they'll come at you sideways and hit you at your weakest.

Also, take note that each Legion (SW and WE) are on the opposite sides, hence both Traitor and Loyalist forces have a crazy, kill a bunch of people force to be used. That's my two cents.

SwiftLord14 wrote:Who wasn't tricked by Horus? He did play into Russ' temper and did what he had to do. +1 to Horus. And when your Dad/Commander tells you to not do something you better not. That's what gave him the douche statues. That's how i feel though. And hey wolves we have are AWESOME!

In short this is what the dailouge was like :

The emporer: Russ bring Magnus to terra

Russ: Alright !

When in orbit above prospero

Horus: Do what the emporer didn't tell you too do and kill Magnus even thought this is totally contradictory to what the emporer said

Russ: Alright !

And that is how easily Horus tricked Russ and forced the Thousand sons into treachary. Oh and also can I add that the Space wolves would have had their Arses handed to them if the oblivion knights hadn't shown up !

And also, the wolves we have on earth are boring because everyone belives they are mystical beings with great understanding, can't you just understand they are the dogs relatives and live with it ?

I read Prospero burns and iI don't recall Horus talking to him at all. He thought that the skald was under Magnus' control. They didn't know it was horus until later on and blasted his arse.

No, you are just interpreting this in a way to try to make the space wolves look better in all of this. The space wolves did not help during the actual heresy, if anything it is there fault that the Emporer is on the golden throne. The space wolves went of and got caught up too far away from terra to do anything usefull.

I just realise that if you think about it the space wolves doomed the imperium !

Swift Lord is right Horus did trick Russ, but it wasn't simple at all. Russ wasn't an idiot he might not have been the brightest Primarch they were all incredibly intelligent. Horus left an incriminating trail and Russ followed it, but even if Horus had told him directly he was the Warmaster so what he said is the will of The Emperor. Russ did make the a great mistake though and should have trusted Big E's judgement.

He tricked Russ nuff said. He tricked a lot of other primarchs to. And its called the HORUS HERESY not Russ gets tricked.


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So saying its Russ' fault is ludacris lol.

SwiftLord14 wrote:He tricked Russ nuff said. He tricked a lot of other primarchs to. And its called the HORUS HERESY not Russ gets tricked.


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So saying its Russ' fault is ludacris lol.

That's mostly what I was saying. I have a feeling Magnus would have turned sooner or later anyway. Horus was a political mastermind it was the main reason he was warmaster. He made a mistake, but saying the Imperium was doomed because of the Wolves is ridiculous.

Yea for sure Nicholas! In the Thousands sons book that little dragon thingy was chaos and was talking to Magnus.

But to stay on subject. I'm sure everyone knows that has read knows that I think the Wolves are the biggest and baddest!

Not sure about biggest and baddest but I'd say they are over the World Eaters

Well Wolves are hunters and in this case they hunt space marines, They've got the fightyness of any chapter, but unlike other chapters their butchering has a pourpose and an objective, were the World eaters just butcher any thing they see the wolves slaughter just as good but never let go of the big picture.

SwiftLord14 wrote:I read Prospero burns and iI don't recall Horus talking to him at all. arse.

For some reason this conversation wasn't mentioned at all in Prospero Burns but has been in A Thousand Sons, False Gods and I think Galaxy in Flames.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

Doesn't Corax in Flight of the Raven state that perhaps only Sanguinius or Russ might be able to best Angron?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Doesn't Corax in Flight of the Raven state that perhaps only Sanguinius or Russ might be able to best Angron?

yup

Nicholas wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:He tricked Russ nuff said. He tricked a lot of other primarchs to. And its called the HORUS HERESY not Russ gets tricked.


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So saying its Russ' fault is ludacris lol.

That's mostly what I was saying. I have a feeling Magnus would have turned sooner or later anyway. Horus was a political mastermind it was the main reason he was warmaster. He made a mistake, but saying the Imperium was doomed because of the Wolves is ridiculous.

Not really.

Every other Primarch knew what they were doing when they joined Horus and when the loyalist were tricked to go to parts of the galaxy that were too far away to help the Emporer it was because they had no other choice but too listen too Hours orders. When Russ was ordered to kill Magnus it was contradicting the Emporer and he did not question the order to contradict the Emporer.

If you think about it Russ being tricked so eaily did doom the impirium. Tzeentch says that the Space wolves and the Thousand sons are the biggest threats to the Heresy, the Emporer would not have been put on the golden throne and therfore would be able to lead humanity and continue the Great crusade. But since Russ was tricked so easily the Thousand sons were forced into treachary and the Space wolves could not help either.

From Russ's perspective he was only following orders, Horus was the Emperors Warmaster and all Russ was doing was what the Emperor had apparently told him to do. Russ wasn't to know that Horus had turned his back on their father but was maybe a bit naive and over eager to take Magnus down.

Magnus would have gone over eventually, he wouldn't have had much choice in the matter when Tzeentch wanted to call in his debt, much like Mortarion being forced into the service of Nurgle.

I agree with you to a degree Moonshine about the Primarchs knowing what they were doing by joining Horus, but I am not sure if they were expecting themselves to be forced into the service of Chaos. They thought that what they were doing was for the benefit of Imperium, not to doom it to eternal war.

Grey elder wrote:Well Wolves are hunters and in this case they hunt space marines, They've got the fightyness of any chapter, but unlike other chapters their butchering has a pourpose and an objective, were the World eaters just butcher any thing they see the wolves slaughter just as good but never let go of the big picture.

If you read Battle of the Fang, the Wolves' ability to see the big picture is dubious at best. Anyway, when talking about battles between primarchs, the abilities of the regular space marines are irrelevant. You're considering a battle between an M1A1 and a T-90M, and then wondering if giving one side a guy with an uzi will make a difference.

The ones who turned traitor weren't the ones who were tricked they all turned for their own reason. Horus tricked half the legions he knew would stay loyal to keep them away, for example he made sure Guillman and the Ultras were too far away too do anything as well. Only three legions were actually able to make it to Terra because of Horus manipulating people. It wasn't because he tricked the Wolves that the Imperium is what it is now, it is because he tricked nearly everyone.

Nicholas wrote:The ones who turned traitor weren't the ones who were tricked they all turned for their own reason. Horus tricked half the legions he knew would stay loyal to keep them away, for example he made sure Guillman and the Ultras were too far away too do anything as well.

Have you read Age of Darkness as this isn't entirely the case now.

Nicholas wrote:it is because he tricked nearly everyone.

I think you'll find Chaos tricked everyone

moonshine wrote:
Every other Primarch knew what they were doing when they joined Horus

No, it was hidden from them. Only Lorgar knew the ramificaitons of Horus' plan.

The Night Haunter, in fact, was betrayed by the traitors as early as the dropsite massacre.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Nicholas wrote:The ones who turned traitor weren't the ones who were tricked they all turned for their own reason. Horus tricked half the legions he knew would stay loyal to keep them away, for example he made sure Guillman and the Ultras were too far away too do anything as well.

Have you read Age of Darkness as this isn't entirely the case now.

Nicholas wrote:it is because he tricked nearly everyone.

I think you'll find Chaos tricked everyone

No did not get to Age of Darkness yet that was what I was led to believe though. Horus couldn't face all the Loyal legions so he spread them out.

Nicholas wrote:

No did not get to Age of Darkness yet that was what I was led to believe though. Horus couldn't face all the Loyal legions so he spread them out.

Oh yeah, that part is still the case, but there are some revelations in Age of Darkness as to the whereabouts, missions and shall we say, agendas, of the loyalist Legions.

Guilliman in particular has a few.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

No did not get to Age of Darkness yet that was what I was led to believe though. Horus couldn't face all the Loyal legions so he spread them out.

Oh yeah, that part is still the case, but there are some revelations in Age of Darkness as to the whereabouts, missions and shall we say, agendas, of the loyalist Legions.

Guilliman in particular has a few.

I'll take your word for it

I just want to clarify something I've seen in his thread about The Lion and The Wolf:

Its clearly stated in the SW Codex that both Chapters were fighting against some traitors held up in some sort of fortified tower and after they killed the traitors Lion and Russ got into a duel. They fought for days on end, then Russ eventually realized that their fight was ridiculous and started laughing about it. Being the guy with his panties too tight in a bundle, Lion took offense to it and sucker punched him. That is not "soundly besting" anyone. That's being a complete coward towards one own brother of all things.

'nuff said.

In Jonson's defense, Russ did start that particular fight.

daveNYC wrote:In Jonson's defense, Russ did start that particular fight.

By sucker punching Jonson no less.

FireWolf698 wrote:I just want to clarify something I've seen in his thread about The Lion and The Wolf:

Its clearly stated in the SW Codex that both Chapters were fighting against some traitors held up in some sort of fortified tower and after they killed the traitors Lion and Russ got into a duel. They fought for days on end, then Russ eventually realized that their fight was ridiculous and started laughing about it. Being the guy with his panties too tight in a bundle, Lion took offense to it and sucker punched him. That is not "soundly besting" anyone. That's being a complete coward towards one own brother of all things.

'nuff said.

Did you read the part where The Lion threw him through a table and then knocked him unconscious? Russ started the fight, The Lion gave him what he deserved for being childish in the first place.

The Lion just left the Wolves hanging on the world, Dulan. Russ lost a lot of guys until the Dark Angels came back. (They did the same thing in the second Space Wolf Omi.) He deserved to get attacked.

Not really.

moonshine wrote:Not really.

They left the flank of the wolves undefended to claim victory for themselves and many SW died because of it.
A short transmission telling the wolves about it would have been enough for them to move forces in to defend their flank but they didn't.
Russ was annoyed at that and because the Lion didn't allow him a chance to avenge himself on the tyrant for insulting him, his response was childish but the Lion should have at least warned the wolves he was leaving their flank unguarded.

If anything I think the Space wolves would have done the same to the dark angels if they had more time.

moonshine wrote:If anything I think the Space wolves would have done the same to the dark angels if they had more time.

Debatable...
The SW have a code of honour. They don't desert people and leave them vulnerable. If Russ had taken the opportunity and charged he would have left the flank with a guard or at least warned the Dark Angels.

None of the Primarch's ever play nice with each other.

As many as there is known SW haters in this thread, some things need to be put straight about who ordered Russ to Prospero and whether it was a mission of, "arresting" or "sanction".

Index Astartes: Space Wolves

In the Emperor's eyes, the Thousand Sons had probed too deeply into mysteries better left alone, willingly walking into the lair of the beast. Magnus' explanations did not pacify the Emperor, and Russ' worst suspicions were confirmed. At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrifed, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' homeworld. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and once more prepared to go to war.

Index Astartes: Space Wolves

Prospero was once the very image of paradise. Great towers of ice and ivory studded the landscape, and beautiful gardens and peaceful lakes were abundant. Russ believed that this veneer of civilisation and culture hid a roiling foundation of evil. In his eyes, every scholar, scribe and sorcerer had delved too far into the mire of Chaos, had drunk too deeply from the blasphemous waters of forbidden knowledge. There was no option; the Wolf-King knew that he must follow the Emperor's command to the letter: cast down the Thousand Sons.

Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

The content of Magnus's warning was ignored completely. It is said the Emperor broke contact with such force that psychic wards throughout the Palace arced with lightning and shattered. At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.

A Thousand Sons, pg 478

"Leman Russ hates us, but even he would never dare attack us without orders", said Ahriman, thinking aloud. "This order must come from a higher source. It comes from the Emperor - it is the only explanation. My lord, what are you not telling us?"

"Always the perceptive one, Ahzek," said Magnus, and the eye swam into sharp focus once more, its hue filled with resignation.

Prospero Burns, pg 386

"You must have known our father's hands would be tied. He would have no other option then to turn to me to issue sanction." Russ to Magnus via Kasper

Prospero Burns, pg 394

The All-father told the Rout what task he needed them to do, and it was done.

Battle of the Fang, pg 391

Magnus lost his smile.

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I know think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."

Battle of the Fang, pg 456

"....Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

As has been done in other threads about the Wolves and whoever and whatever, I am sure everything will be ignored and personal bias will dictate the rest of this thread.

Brother Ramses wrote:As many as there is known SW haters in this thread, some things need to be put straight about who ordered Russ to Prospero and whether it was a mission of, "arresting" or "sanction".

Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Space Wolves

At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrifed, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' homeworld. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and once more prepared to go to war.

Nice one Russ

Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.

Brother Ramses wrote:A Thousand Sons, pg 478

"Leman Russ hates us, but even he would never dare attack us without orders", said Ahriman, thinking aloud. "This order must come from a higher source. It comes from the Emperor - it is the only explanation. My lord, what are you not telling us?"

"Always the perceptive one, Ahzek," said Magnus, and the eye swam into sharp focus once more, its hue filled with resignation.

Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 386

"You must have known our father's hands would be tied. He would have no other option then to turn to me to issue sanction." Russ to Magnus via Kasper

Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 394

The All-father told the Rout what task he needed them to do, and it was done.

Brother Ramses wrote:Battle of the Fang, pg 456

"....Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

Brother Ramses wrote:As has been done in other threads about the Wolves and whoever and whatever, I am sure everything will be ignored and personal bias will dictate the rest of this thread.

I don't think it's a case of people ignoring or being haters, it's a case of there being conflicting accounts. All the fluff is from different perspectives, accounts and times, so which version is correct? I don't think Games Workshop will ever say.

The person responsible for sending the Wolves to Prospero I don't think is in question, but the Emperors motives are, was Russ sent to bring Magnus back to Terra or was he sent to kill him.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

About the World Eaters, they are mindless barbarians that can't be controlled, they are an atom bomb to the Space Wolves reapers scythe.

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

Because they're vicious, wild killers who can control their rage.That is why they are the most dangerous.

moonshine wrote:If anything I think the Space wolves would have done the same to the dark angels if they had more time.

So true. The Russ got what he would have of have done to the Lion

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:As many as there is known SW haters in this thread, some things need to be put straight about who ordered Russ to Prospero and whether it was a mission of, "arresting" or "sanction".

Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Space Wolves

At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrifed, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' homeworld. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and once more prepared to go to war.

Nice one Russ

Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.

Brother Ramses wrote:A Thousand Sons, pg 478

"Leman Russ hates us, but even he would never dare attack us without orders", said Ahriman, thinking aloud. "This order must come from a higher source. It comes from the Emperor - it is the only explanation. My lord, what are you not telling us?"

"Always the perceptive one, Ahzek," said Magnus, and the eye swam into sharp focus once more, its hue filled with resignation.

Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 386

"You must have known our father's hands would be tied. He would have no other option then to turn to me to issue sanction." Russ to Magnus via Kasper

Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 394

The All-father told the Rout what task he needed them to do, and it was done.

Brother Ramses wrote:Battle of the Fang, pg 456

"....Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

Brother Ramses wrote:As has been done in other threads about the Wolves and whoever and whatever, I am sure everything will be ignored and personal bias will dictate the rest of this thread.

I don't think it's a case of people ignoring or being haters, it's a case of there being conflicting accounts. All the fluff is from different perspectives, accounts and times, so which version is correct? I don't think Games Workshop will ever say.

The person responsible for sending the Wolves to Prospero I don't think is in question, but the Emperors motives are, was Russ sent to bring Magnus back to Terra or was he sent to kill him.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

About the World Eaters, they are mindless barbarians that can't be controlled, they are an atom bomb to the Space Wolves reapers scythe.

I was going through my HH books late last night for that quote but I got tired. It is the only reference that Russ was not at the side of the Emperor when Magnus busted through the webway to send his message to the Emperor. I could not find any other reference to Horus misdirecting Russ other then that one quote.

From Prospero Burns, we have a hint that Russ was willing to accept complete surrender from Magnus and the Thousand Sons when he is trying to relay a message through Kasper. That could be seen as one of two things,

1. Russ does not want to have to sanction one of his brothers again which is supported by Magnus talking about his grief and Russ almost begging Magnus to surrender.

2. He was initially going to take him back to Terra and changed his mind at the revelations of Kasper and the betrayal. However this would not be supported if he had already been told by Horus that it would be a waste of time.

So if we are to believe that Horus told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons, we have to dismiss all that has been already said that Russ was by the Emperor's side to receive orders directly from him. We would also have to believe that when Russ is trying to relay a message through Kasper that he is defying Horus' order to just destroy the Thousand Sons as well since it appears that Russ makes his decision there to rain hell on Prospero unless Mganus begs him to allow him to surrender.

In this case, I just go with majority fluff ruling with my own twist;

The Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons. He ordered the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in support of the Wolves, thereby by proxy showing his support. However he also ordered that if the Thousand Sons were to surrender instead, Russ was to accept that offer because having seen Magnus' reaction to what he had done upon the palace, he knew that the primarch was remorseful.

The problem with that theory is that in False Gods, we are given a scene where the newly corrupted Horus sics Russ on Magnus.

I never read the IA articles, but the HH books are nearly all written in third person omniscient. If a character states an opinion, then their viewpoint comes into it, but what the character says is exactly what they said. In that way it is different from fluff in the rulebook and codicies, which are more of a written history, with all the errors that can creep in. So when False Gods has Horus saying (roughly) that Magnus could be a problem, lets get Russ to sort him out, then IMO, that is what happened.

daveNYC wrote:The problem with that theory is that in False Gods, we are given a scene where the newly corrupted Horus sics Russ on Magnus.

I never read the IA articles, but the HH books are nearly all written in third person omniscient. If a character states an opinion, then their viewpoint comes into it, but what the character says is exactly what they said. In that way it is different from fluff in the rulebook and codicies, which are more of a written history, with all the errors that can creep in. So when False Gods has Horus saying (roughly) that Magnus could be a problem, lets get Russ to sort him out, then IMO, that is what happened.

This is where the conflicting opinions come from. The perspectives on all the novels are from different points of view. GW needs to work more on this perhaps edit BL books more

Everytime i think of the thousand sons I always think "Poor peps they didn't deserve it."
But Leman would of allowed magnus back into the fold if his son's surrendered...... but like loyalty to your father you would never betray his image.
Damn it Ahriman!

Brother Ramses wrote:
I was going through my HH books late last night for that quote but I got tired. It is the only reference that Russ was not at the side of the Emperor when Magnus busted through the webway to send his message to the Emperor. I could not find any other reference to Horus misdirecting Russ other then that one quote.

It's also revealed to Wyrdmake by Ahriman in Thousand Sons, it mentions the lie by Horus and the urgings of Valdor. Russ was duped.

Brother Ramses wrote:From Prospero Burns, we have a hint that Russ was willing to accept complete surrender from Magnus and the Thousand Sons when he is trying to relay a message through Kasper. That could be seen as one of two things,

1. Russ does not want to have to sanction one of his brothers again which is supported by Magnus talking about his grief and Russ almost begging Magnus to surrender.

Depending on which of the IA articles you go with I don't know if this sentiment can be believed.

Brother Ramses wrote:2. He was initially going to take him back to Terra and changed his mind at the revelations of Kasper and the betrayal. However this would not be supported if he had already been told by Horus that it would be a waste of time.

Russ didn't necessarily need much convincing if their history is as strained as suggested. Could do with a bit more insight into their relationship. I think Russ was itching to get some pay back after Shrike and this was just false sentimentality.

Brother Ramses wrote:So if we are to believe that Horus told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons, we have to dismiss all that has been already said that Russ was by the Emperor's side to receive orders directly from him. We would also have to believe that when Russ is trying to relay a message through Kasper that he is defying Horus' order to just destroy the Thousand Sons as well since it appears that Russ makes his decision there to rain hell on Prospero unless Mganus begs him to allow him to surrender.

I dunno, it happened whilst on route to Prospero and Horus is the voice of the Emperor in effect. Communication was bad at that time due to the disturbances in the warp and Russ wasn't to fond of Magnus and didn't need much convincing. The problem with Prospero Burns is that some key points are missing, the conversation between Russ and the Emperor and the message coming from Horus.

A Thousand Sons also has no mention of Russ being at the Emperors side when the message is received from Magnus.

Brother Ramses wrote:In this case, I just go with majority fluff ruling with my own twist;

The Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons. He ordered the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in support of the Wolves, thereby by proxy showing his support. However he also ordered that if the Thousand Sons were to surrender instead, Russ was to accept that offer because having seen Magnus' reaction to what he had done upon the palace, he knew that the primarch was remorseful.

This would be the interpretation that I would also go with, he needed Magnus for the Golden Throne after all. I am not sure what the Emperors intentions were for the Thousand Sons themselves though.

iproxtaco wrote:Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.

Yes and NO, While I completely agree Russ is loyal to the Emperor (because the Emperor thinks Russ is one of the his sons) I do NOT agree he will "do whatever he is told"... no I disagree. The very fact that he refuses to accept the Codex Astrates and runs by his own codex and plans is evident of that. Even after they tried to label him as a heretic.

Quote from the Lexicanum

The Space Wolves are known for their fiercely anti-authoritarian behavior. They strongly resist the central command structure of the Imperium, and refuse to follow the dictates of the Codex Astartes, which lays the structure and tactics to be used by all Space Marines. Their army has a strong Viking feel to them along with many wolf references and long drinking sessions, right down to their wolf-like teeth and heightened senses. They are very superstitious and only rarely make use of advanced technology used by other Chapters, such as teleportation.

Another Quote from Lexicanum

the Primarch (Russ) suddenly launched a furious attack. This very challenge proved to the Emperor that this was indeed one of his sons . Russ fighting with outstanding speed and power.

On the contrary iproxtaco, Space Wolves are fiercely independent and rebels that do what they want (which is why their chapter appeal to me). They may at times support and agree with the emperor out of loyalty; but, they hardly are his lap dogs. Russ still has a very intelligent and keen mind of his own. .

Another cool story about Space Wolves according to the lexicanum:

This lead to a battle that lasted a week or more, until finally Russ saw how immature their squabble was and started laughing. Lion El'Jonson (Dark Angels Primarch) took this as Russ mocking him and punched Leman Russ into unconsciousness before leaving the planet with his legion. This led to a bitter feud between the Legions (and subsequent Chapters), which lasts to this day - although recent events may finally have led to an end to the rivalry, though it is still customary for selected champions from both sides to engage in a (usually) non-lethal duel.

Not only show's Russ' fighting ability (lasted more than a week) but also his sudden and enlightened understanding of their actions. Lion El' Johnson jumped to a hasty conclusion and won with a dishonorable and p_ssy sucker punch while Leman Russ had his guard down because he realized the whole thing was immature.

Basically, what's more dangerous? A vicious trained attack dog, or a vicious rabid one?

For are animals for whatever it's worth.


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KillThemAll wrote:Not only show's Russ' fighting ability (lasted more than a week) but also his sudden and enlightened understanding of their actions. Lion El' Johnson jumped to a hasty conclusion and won with a dishonorable and p_ssy sucker punch while Leman Russ had his guard down because he realized the whole thing was immature.

That is not the only time the Lion resorts to a "dishonorable and pussy sucker punch", as he did the same thing against the Night Haunter (except he gutted him with his sword). Of course, he still got his brains bashed in, so maybe fighting a week against the Lion is not a very impressive feat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Burning wrote:But basically to sell books each legion/chapter is 'most pwoerful evar!' except for the Ultras, they are bestest - according to the BL.

That's because Ultras ARE the bestest. The and their successors probably best represent the Emperor's vision for the Astartes. Peerless warriors that follow orders to the letter, are not prone to battlefield excesses, and actually leave the worlds they conquer better than they found them.

moonshine wrote:Oh and who would win in a fight : Angron vs Russ ?

I would say probably Angron was the most dangerous in close combat of all the Primarchs, with the possible exceptions of Horus and Sanguinius. Curze considered Angron extremely dangerous, Curze whooped the Lion's ass, while the Lion fought Russ to a standstill.

DarknessEternal wrote:
So, Russ walked away completely uninjured, and Magnus was dead. You interpret this as Russ being "hopelessly out-classed"?

You've a strange perspective.

Um, if getting kicked around, scorched and electrocuted, having your heart punched out your back, and having both of your pet wolves that were backing you up pureed counts as "walking way completely uninjured", then yes, you are absolutely right.

If the old fluff about Russ dying when he left for the Warp is still accurate, then these are probably the wounds that did it.

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

13th Company wulfen...



/thread

KillThemAll wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.

Yes and NO, While I completely agree Russ is loyal to the Emperor (because the Emperor thinks Russ is one of the his sons) I do NOT agree he will "do whatever he is told"... no I disagree. The very fact that he refuses to accept the Codex Astrates and runs by his own codex and plans is evident of that. Even after they tried to label him as a heretic.

Who, exactly, tried to institute these changes and labelled him as a Heretic? It wasn't the Emperor if you want to know. It was Guilliman and his goonies. Dorn, even more loyal to his father railed against the reformists.

Quote from the Lexicanum

The Space Wolves are known for their fiercely anti-authoritarian behavior. They strongly resist the central command structure of the Imperium, and refuse to follow the dictates of the Codex Astartes, which lays the structure and tactics to be used by all Space Marines. Their army has a strong Viking feel to them along with many wolf references and long drinking sessions, right down to their wolf-like teeth and heightened senses. They are very superstitious and only rarely make use of advanced technology used by other Chapters, such as teleportation.

Again, notice this is not disobedience to the Emperor. It's disobedience to the Imperium's command structure, which is far from the Emperor's teachings.

Another Quote from Lexicanum

the Primarch (Russ) suddenly launched a furious attack. This very challenge proved to the Emperor that this was indeed one of his sons . Russ fighting with outstanding speed and power.

On the contrary iproxtaco, Space Wolves are fiercely independent and rebels that do what they want (which is why their chapter appeal to me). They may at times support and agree with the emperor out of loyalty; but, they hardly are his lap dogs. Russ still has a very intelligent and keen mind of his own.

Do you read what you quote? This was clearly before Russ knew this figure was his father. They're his lapdogs, destroying two brother Legions on his order.

Another cool story about Space Wolves according to the lexicanum:

This lead to a battle that lasted a week or more, until finally Russ saw how immature their squabble was and started laughing. Lion El'Jonson (Dark Angels Primarch) took this as Russ mocking him and punched Leman Russ into unconsciousness before leaving the planet with his legion. This led to a bitter feud between the Legions (and subsequent Chapters), which lasts to this day - although recent events may finally have led to an end to the rivalry, though it is still customary for selected champions from both sides to engage in a (usually) non-lethal duel.

Not only show's Russ' fighting ability (lasted more than a week) but also his sudden and enlightened understanding of their actions. Lion El' Johnson jumped to a hasty conclusion and won with a dishonorable and p_ssy sucker punch while Leman Russ had his guard down because he realized the whole thing was immature.

Russ started the fight. Not so enlightened now. I'm unsure as to which part of Lexicanum you're finding these quotes from. The article on The Lion has the duel lasting a day. This is pretty much a cop-out. The Lion punched Russ unconscious, he gave him what the deserved for starting the fight in the first place.


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WARORK93 wrote:

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

13th Company wulfen...

Spoiler:

/thread

Not so conclusive, is it?

Russ was pissed because the Lion got his men killed. He didn't start it. If my men were killed because someone was just like "Hey eff it we'll leave them haning and come back in a little bit." I'd shove a powerfist up their arse.

I'd like to know where you got that info from. The Dark Angels codex, maybe a bit biased, says something quite different.

iproxtaco wrote:

WARORK93 wrote:

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

13th Company wulfen...

Spoiler:

/thread

Not so conclusive, is it?

Actually I think it is...the first pic is of a dead world eater at the feet of a space wolf while the second one is just Kharn clocking some civvies or something without power armor...

SwiftLord14 wrote:Russ was pissed because the Lion got his men killed. He didn't start it. If my men were killed because someone was just like "Hey eff it we'll leave them haning and come back in a little bit." I'd shove a powerfist up their arse.

<redacted for inaccuracy>

Also, Lexicanum is an extremely unreliable source. A lot of it is based on outdated fluff, is paraphrased, and can be extremely biased (as an example, try searching for the Inquisition War pages).

"Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

iproxtaco wrote:I'd like to know where you got that info from. The Dark Angels codex, maybe a bit biased, says something quite different.

The Dark angels codex says Jhonson had a very good assult plan all laid out but Russ flew into a rage and charged the fortress whilst the dark angels stuck to the plan. If the spcae wolves had of stuck to the good plan the Jhonson made then they would have come of much better.

This is turning into personal preference of which Chapter you like. You says it says something different (from the Dark Angels codex) im reading what it says in the SW codex. This is going no where.

iproxtaco wrote:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but both the SWs in that picture are very much still alive and appear to have the upper hand considering one just pulled the other off his mount...

The Lion had a carefully laid plan. Russ destroyed it because the leader of his enemy offended him. The Lion obviously got some of Russ's men killed. For a reason. Russ, in his anger, attached The Lion.


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WARORK93 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but both the SWs in that picture are very much still alive and appear to have the upper hand considering one just pulled the other off his mount...

Why is he on the ground in the first place? Yeah, this isn't over.

Because he's pulling him to the ground. Even my blind cousin can see that.

The Space Wolf is on his ass, without a backpack. He's obviously been knocked down. Even my Blind Donkey can see that.

SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

Both accounts are prefaced as legends, so neither is reliable. For the record, this is what it says in Codex Dark Angels, p 20:

It was on the world of Dulan where the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Dark Angels that matters came to a head. The Tyrant Durath had personally insulted the Emperor, sacrificing thousands of Imperial priests to his patron Daemon, and both Russ and Jonson desired the honour of slaying this heretic. The headstrong Primarch of the Space Wolves flew into a rage when Durath proclaimed that Russ was the Emperor's lap dog and would be fed to his pet grox [lulz].

Russ swore that he would cut Durath's head from his shoulders and demanded that the Dark Angels allow him to lead his Space Wolves in an immediate assault upon the Tyrant's Crimson Fortress. Jonson had spent days scouting the weak points of the fortress, meticulously planning the attack and was not about to let some hot-headed barbarian ruin his carefully laid plans. He refused Russ's demand and began the assault, storming the fortress with remarkably few casualties.

Russ, caught in a swirling combat at the base of the wall, could only howl in anger as he watched Jonson slay Durath high on the walls of the keep.

So from the Dark Angels description, it sounds like the typical Russ: headstrong, impulsive, and ever eager to get in a fight with his siblings. Maybe the Emperor should have skipped the leash, and gone straight to the choke-collar.

Of course, from the Space Wolves description, we get the typical Lion: treacherous and only concerned with his own glory.

Both of these Primarchs are bottom of the barrel.

So you are basing you opinion on a picture that could be debatable until the world ends?


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I'd believe the Dark Angles stroy better if they didn't do that SAME thing in the Second Space Wolf Omnibus.

If I remember correctly about how good russ was that when he was fighting Magnus he happened to stumble on the battle field and there in that moment Garm helped him by hurting magnus with the spearing thus allowing Russ to then thoroughly kick the crap out of Magnus.

SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

Here here! Swiflord ! good find !

Russ didn't start "the fight" Russ held Lion accountable for his poor decision and risking Russ' men. If I were Russ I'd pop Lion one too if his decisions got my men killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

Both accounts are prefaced as legends, so neither is reliable. For the record, this is what it says in Codex Dark Angels, p 20:

It was on the world of Dulan where the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Dark Angels that matters came to a head. The Tyrant Durath had personally insulted the Emperor, sacrificing thousands of Imperial priests to his patron Daemon, and both Russ and Jonson desired the honour of slaying this heretic. The headstrong Primarch of the Space Wolves flew into a rage when Durath proclaimed that Russ was the Emperor's lap dog and would be fed to his pet grox [lulz].

Russ swore that he would cut Durath's head from his shoulders and demanded that the Dark Angels allow him to lead his Space Wolves in an immediate assault upon the Tyrant's Crimson Fortress. Jonson had spent days scouting the weak points of the fortress, meticulously planning the attack and was not about to let some hot-headed barbarian ruin his carefully laid plans. He refused Russ's demand and began the assault, storming the fortress with remarkably few casualties.

Russ, caught in a swirling combat at the base of the wall, could only howl in anger as he watched Jonson slay Durath high on the walls of the keep.

So from the Dark Angels description, it sounds like the typical Russ: headstrong, impulsive, and ever eager to get in a fight with his siblings. Maybe the Emperor should have skipped the leash, and gone straight to the choke-collar.

Of course, from the Space Wolves description, we get the typical Lion: treacherous and only concerned with his own glory.

Both of these Primarchs are bottom of the barrel.

So according to the Dark Angels own codex LION first....
1. scoffed at his skills and looked down their noses at the "barbarians"
2. Rather than let Russ defend/prove himself agains Durath's slander honorably (by pushing the attack and wining) .... the Lion tried to beat him to the punch to look like the hero ( disshonorable again) and
3. thus broke rank and got Russ' men killed...

Yeah if Lion got in my way of letting me prove my defend my honor and got a bunch of my men killed. I'd pop Lion in the mouth too or a lot worse. Russ may have punched first but according to that Dark Angels own codex Lion deserved it.
And the fact that after all that the lion still "realized how silly it was" YES iproxtaco I stand by my words "enlightened" ...


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Russ didn't start crap ! he tried to finish it.
But again his greater wisdom got the best of him and when he lowered his gaurd in laughter Lion sucker punched.


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Oh and BTW Grey Elder... "he meant to do that" all apart of the plan ! lolz

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PSSSSSSS>
Although a long time 40k Video game fan (played the original Space hulks Gene Stealers game for the NES in 1996) I am new to the table top and 40k lore. So I may not be versed enough i admit that .. .but I will say from first read it seems kind a sad and wrong that Russ shows loyalty to the Emperor (his father) and gets called "a lap dog" probably from a jealous man as well. Then on top of that .. his own brother views him as a barbarian and gets in Russ' way of proving his honor and on top of that gets Russ' men killed. Well how would you like to be raised by wolfs. Not as fun as your cushy shelterd palace there "LION". I don't know the lion's story on how he grew up but I bet Russ had it rougher being found in the woods raised by wolfs (sounds Roman/Romulus Ramus to me ). .. IDK imo poor old Russ is getting the bone and kicked around "like a dog" more than he deserves. I think people fail to see his true power and intellegence just because of his rough exterior and unpolished nature... To me that doesn't make him any less cuning or intellegent. Infact, to me that makes the Lion and others less intellegent for jumping to conclusions and underestemating someone based on apperances. Also, Sounds like Lion is a jealous brother and along with others won't give the Dog his due .. peace thanks all for replies I"m learning more and more and community is fun and great peace.

The Lion grew up completely alone in a jungle full of daemon beasts, arguably far more dangerous than hanging out with a pack of friendly apex predators.

KillThemAll wrote:
Russ didn't start crap ! he tried to finish it.
But again his greater wisdom got the best of him and when he lowered his gaurd in laughter Lion sucker punched.

He attacked a fellow Primarch. As much as I dislike the Lion, he's not beholden to abandon his long-established strategy because Russ feels he has something to prove. Generals may disagree, they don't start picking fights over it. If anything, Russ proved himself a barbarian that day... all that crap in Prospero Burns about him "pretending" to be a savage is apparently just that, a bunch of crap.

Really it depends on who you think is cooler.

Honestly, I think the Space Wolves and the World Eaters, are equal, man to man, regardless of fluff. The one thing we have to keep in mind is that no such competition has taken place. This entire thread is personal preference really.

But, and just because, WORLD EATERS FTW!

found this in the Space Wolves Codex.... sheds some more plausable light on Lions' decision to "break rank". Comes straight from SW codex page 91... IT says "suddenly and without warning, El'Jonson broke ranks and led his DA's into the attack against the tyrant's fortress. The Space Woves found their flank unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy counter attacked."

IDK .. you can spin it either way but sounds to me like Lion's direct actions to be greedy and get their first to "grab the glory" (as you put it above in a post Omegus) betrayed fellow space marines and cost lifes, a selfish and costly decision at the expense of the spacewolves and a "fellow Primarch" FIRST. Indeed, what if Russ himself had been killed. How would the Emperor look at Lion's rash decision to break rank and grab the glory at the expense of his "fellow Primarch" then... As I said and still stand by, Russ didn't start it or betray Lion like that, he simply gave the lion his consequences for his actions. And rightly so IMO. In todays modern army, I would wager that, that action would not be seen glorious at all... Russ himself could have been lost/killed. I wouldn't want the Lion in or anywhere near my army FO SHO!

BUT I do see your point how either chapter has their own viewpoint and it can go back and forth till the end of time. ..
Here it is anyways.

Ps .. is that the identical passage you found Omegus ? sorry if it is... it's 2am, too late time for bed

The way I read it from both accounts is that the Dark Angels stuck to the agreed upon plan while the wolves went charging across open field to get to the enemy. The wolves blame the Angels for not holding their hands along the way and the wolves suffer for it.

Imagine this if you will. Has anyone ever told you how to best do something? You ignored the advice and throw a temper tantrem when it didn't work out? That's what Russ did. Threw a tantrem because he broke from the plan.

I thought that Lion wouldn't let Russ attack and defend his honor and rage because lion wanted to hog the glory. Not a good reason to deny someone IMO... if someone talked crap to your brother or co-worker or squad member would you break away from him in a fight ?

not I.
That's loyalty.. and I'd let him go after the guy... if lion was such a millitary genius he could have used Russ' rage to his advantage and not sacrified Russ and his men.


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Lion had no good reason to say "no" to Russ other than he wanted that glory ... if he was so good at planing things and he could have made a plan that included russ rather than deserted him in the middle of battle.

KillThemAll wrote:found this in the Space Wolves Codex.... sheds some more plausable light on Lions' decision to "break rank". Comes straight from SW codex page 91... IT says "suddenly and without warning, El'Jonson broke ranks and led his DA's into the attack against the tyrant's fortress. The Space Woves found their flank unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy counter attacked."

IDK .. you can spin it either way but sounds to me like Lion's direct actions to be greedy and get their first to "grab the glory" (as you put it above in a post Omegus) betrayed fellow space marines and cost lifes, a selfish and costly decision at the expense of the spacewolves and a "fellow Primarch" FIRST. Indeed, what if Russ himself had been killed. How would the Emperor look at Lion's rash decision to break rank and grab the glory at the expense of his "fellow Primarch" then... As I said and still stand by, Russ didn't start it or betray Lion like that, he simply gave the lion his consequences for his actions. And rightly so IMO. In todays modern army, I would wager that, that action would not be seen glorious at all... Russ himself could have been lost/killed. I wouldn't want the Lion in or anywhere near my army FO SHO!

BUT I do see your point how either chapter has their own viewpoint and it can go back and forth till the end of time. ..
Here it is anyways.

Ps .. is that the identical passage you found Omegus ? sorry if it is... it's 2am, too late time for bed

I don't even know anymore, like you said it's 2am. Don't get me wrong, although I have a burning hatred for all things related to Space Wolves, I find the Lion to be the most despicable character in the entire 40K mythos by a huge margin. But still, Lion plans an attack for weeks, Russ gets a bug up his ass because the heretic said mean things to him and wants to assault immediately, Lion ignores him and follows his own original plan. I don't see anything rash here... the Lion doesn't do rash. But he does love his sucker-punches.

there were two paths Lion could have chose .. one .. include his brother and allow him to gain his justice... or 2. ignore his brother's wishes as well and add to the disdane and abandon his brother patriach in the middle of battle that cost lives... and created a many years of dissenece between the chapters... which one do you think would have been more productive ? IMO Lion didn't even try to include Russ.. he just said "No and my way or highway so f you I'm going over here let your men die I don't give a flip" ... not honorable AT ALL ! period.


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LOlz OMgeus .. get some sleep

(like the cartoon of the cyote and the sheep dog... we can pick it up in the morning... "night Ralph... night Fred"

Peace



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Kinda see your point .. Lion didn't want a part of Russ' tantrum ok I see that .. you're right .. but turning away from Russ in the middle of a fight when Russ dependent no TRUSTED him to protect his flank and getting Russ' men killed .. well That didn't help...he could have thought of something better. and I'd a punched the Lion too. lolz



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maybe that's why I roll spacewolves peace night all



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as BOTH accounts state .. it wasn't Russ that turned away from Lion so I don't believe the argument that RUss wouldn't listen and wanted to go off in a tantrum on The tower. ... on the contrary BOTH accounts state that the Lion left first .. appears proof is in the pudding and Lion's actions. It was him that abandoned Russ first and wanted to go his own way. Idk maybe too tried to tell at this point .. plus it's fiction and i wasn't there lolz .. peace really going to bed now

Maybe the original plans were for Russ to take the glory? Maybe when the Angels moved the WOlves should have moved in tandem. Instead the wolves are too angry or proud to follow the battle plan and then complain that the Lion left them. Perhaps the Lion was supposed to break the gates to Allow the Wolf through. We don't know. Most likely due to the fact that Russ strayed from the plan. If Eisenhower told me to follow his instructions I would lend him my ear. Not go off and say no because Rommel said I was a pansy.

One says Russ was acting like a plum the other doesn't. It's a story favouring your own side.

Which version is true, I don't really care, as Imperial Fists are where it's at.

But my point is both are true as to keep the Space Wolves and Dark Angels fans happy and at each others throats. And the cycle of rivalry between the two factions continues.

Dulan isn't the only example of the Lion being a bit of a git towards Russ though.

KillThemAll wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

Here here! Swiflord ! good find !

Russ didn't start "the fight" Russ held Lion accountable for his poor decision and risking Russ' men. If I were Russ I'd pop Lion one too if his decisions got my men killed.

Held accountable by attacking him. Russ attacked a fellow Primarch, there's no way you can swing this to make Russ some enlightened being.

Omegus wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

Both accounts are prefaced as legends, so neither is reliable. For the record, this is what it says in Codex Dark Angels, p 20:

It was on the world of Dulan where the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Dark Angels that matters came to a head. The Tyrant Durath had personally insulted the Emperor, sacrificing thousands of Imperial priests to his patron Daemon, and both Russ and Jonson desired the honour of slaying this heretic. The headstrong Primarch of the Space Wolves flew into a rage when Durath proclaimed that Russ was the Emperor's lap dog and would be fed to his pet grox [lulz].

Russ swore that he would cut Durath's head from his shoulders and demanded that the Dark Angels allow him to lead his Space Wolves in an immediate assault upon the Tyrant's Crimson Fortress. Jonson had spent days scouting the weak points of the fortress, meticulously planning the attack and was not about to let some hot-headed barbarian ruin his carefully laid plans. He refused Russ's demand and began the assault, storming the fortress with remarkably few casualties.

Russ, caught in a swirling combat at the base of the wall, could only howl in anger as he watched Jonson slay Durath high on the walls of the keep.

So from the Dark Angels description, it sounds like the typical Russ: headstrong, impulsive, and ever eager to get in a fight with his siblings. Maybe the Emperor should have skipped the leash, and gone straight to the choke-collar.

Of course, from the Space Wolves description, we get the typical Lion: treacherous and only concerned with his own glory.

Both of these Primarchs are bottom of the barrel.

So according to the Dark Angels own codex LION first....
1. scoffed at his skills and looked down their noses at the "barbarians"
2. Rather than let Russ defend/prove himself agains Durath's slander honorably (by pushing the attack and wining) .... the Lion tried to beat him to the punch to look like the hero ( disshonorable again) and
3. thus broke rank and got Russ' men killed...

Yeah if Lion got in my way of letting me prove my defend my honor and got a bunch of my men killed. I'd pop Lion in the mouth too or a lot worse. Russ may have punched first but according to that Dark Angels own codex Lion deserved it.
And the fact that after all that the lion still "realized how silly it was" YES iproxtaco I stand by my words "enlightened" ...

That's an incredibly biased view of it, and it's meant to be like that. Russ punched first, because The Lion took the kill, for his own personal glory and because he had a carefully laid plan that his brother was about to ruin with his head-strong ways. Russ threw the first punch because it was an insult to his honor and some of his men were killed. They fought. Russ stopped the fight, saying it was silly, despite starting it himself. The Lion punched him unconscious for starting it in the first place. Both got what they deserved.

Russ didn't start crap ! he tried to finish it.
But again his greater wisdom got the best of him and when he lowered his gaurd in laughter Lion sucker punched.

Biased view is biased. The Lion provoked, Russ started a fight due to being head-strong, The Lion finished. Equally responsible for the outcome.

PSSSSSSS>
Although a long time 40k Video game fan (played the original Space hulks Gene Stealers game for the NES in 1996) I am new to the table top and 40k lore. So I may not be versed enough i admit that .. .but I will say from first read it seems kind a sad and wrong that Russ shows loyalty to the Emperor (his father) and gets called "a lap dog" probably from a jealous man as well. Then on top of that .. his own brother views him as a barbarian and gets in Russ' way of proving his honor and on top of that gets Russ' men killed. Well how would you like to be raised by wolfs. Not as fun as your cushy shelterd palace there "LION". I don't know the lion's story on how he grew up but I bet Russ had it rougher being found in the woods raised by wolfs (sounds Roman/Romulus Ramus to me ). .. IDK imo poor old Russ is getting the bone and kicked around "like a dog" more than he deserves. I think people fail to see his true power and intellegence just because of his rough exterior and unpolished nature... To me that doesn't make him any less cuning or intellegent. Infact, to me that makes the Lion and others less intellegent for jumping to conclusions and underestemating someone based on apperances. Also, Sounds like Lion is a jealous brother and along with others won't give the Dog his due .. peace thanks all for replies I"m learning more and more and community is fun and great peace.

The Lion raised himself in a forest filled with Daemon monsters and predatory animals, fierce to the extent that humans had to live in fortresses protected by knights to survive. Not to cushy, is it? If what Omegus says is true, and from what I've read of Russ, in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, Russ is a barbarian, and a savage. That intellect is buried beneath religious and tribal dogma. Give me a source which portrays him as only pretending to seem like this.

Doesn't Magnus say in a Thousand Sons that Russ isn't the savage that he appears and that it's just for show?

Maybe not all of Russ brothers were aware of this.

Lion and Russ had a strong relationship after Dulan and was strengthened after the Heresy, after the Lion stabs Russ. What a way to make a friendship stronger.

Maybe, but from what Omegus has said, it isn't really a show, Russ is a savage through and through.

He's definitely a single minded, brutal and unwavering chap

Well, in A Thousand Sons, Ahriman comments that the Wolf King is probably smarter than he lets on, which lends some credence to the whole "he's just pretending" theory, but none of Russ's actions or statements actually support that theory.

Same thing in Prospero Burns, the Wolves say again and again that they just pretend to be savage barbarians to throw people off, but again none of their actions support that claim.

So maybe it's true, the Wolves are super sophisticated and intellectual and just pretend to be genocidal primitives, but they are just such awesome actors (sophisticated and intellectual, remember), that the persona overshadows their character.


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KillThemAll wrote:there were two paths Lion could have chose .. one .. include his brother and allow him to gain his justice... or 2. ignore his brother's wishes as well and add to the disdane and abandon his brother patriach in the middle of battle that cost lives... and created a many years of dissenece between the chapters... which one do you think would have been more productive ? IMO Lion didn't even try to include Russ.. he just said "No and my way or highway so f you I'm going over here let your men die I don't give a flip" ... not honorable AT ALL ! period.

The Lion took the logical path, accomplishing his given task with the fewest casualties to his men and the most amount of glory to himself. That's his personality. He has no real loyalty, empathy or sense of camaraderie for fellow warriors. This is stressed repeatedly in the HH novels.

iproxtaco wrote:That's an incredibly biased view of it, and it's meant to be like that. Russ punched first, because The Lion took the kill, for his own personal glory and because he had a carefully laid plan that his brother was about to ruin with his head-strong ways. Russ threw the first punch because it was an insult to his honor and some of his men were killed. They fought. Russ stopped the fight, saying it was silly, despite starting it himself. The Lion punched him unconscious for starting it in the first place. Both got what they deserved

....
I am biased ? lolz IPROXTACO.. .that's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Plus, Who is to say Russ would have ruined it ... the Lion didn't even let him try just said "screw you I'm going first.. wether you or your men die or not" ... and you're going to defend the lion's actions no matter what also... atleast I have already conceeded to Russ being rash and tempramental but Lion was equally wrong for betraying a fellow patriarch and brother on the battle field... seems like you won't even admit that ... so who is being biased .. hypocrite! You expect me to see your point without admiting Lion did anything wrong and without even seeing Russ' point at all... Atleast I can admit Russ was wrong on some parts but you still stand by Lion's decision to abandon Russ' back/flank in battle "directly" resulting in the death of many of Russ' men ... not "indirectly" because Russ was "rash: wanted to rush off first but Fing DIRECTLY.... point your "biased" fingers at yourself, hypocrite


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Pilau Rice wrote:One says Russ was acting like a plum the other doesn't. It's a story favouring your own side.

Which version is true, I don't really care, as Imperial Fists are where it's at.

But my point is both are true as to keep the Space Wolves and Dark Angels fans happy and at each others throats. And the cycle of rivalry between the two factions continues.
Dulan isn't the only example of the Lion being a bit of a git towards Russ though.

Point well taken ..

KillThemAll wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's an incredibly biased view of it, and it's meant to be like that. Russ punched first, because The Lion took the kill, for his own personal glory and because he had a carefully laid plan that his brother was about to ruin with his head-strong ways. Russ threw the first punch because it was an insult to his honor and some of his men were killed. They fought. Russ stopped the fight, saying it was silly, despite starting it himself. The Lion punched him unconscious for starting it in the first place. Both got what they deserved

....
I am biased ? lolz IPROXTACO.. .that's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Plus, Who is to say Russ would have ruined it ... the Lion didn't even let him try just said "screw you I'm going first.. wether you or your men die or not" ... and you're going to defend the lion's actions no matter what also... atleast I have already conceeded to Russ being rash and tempramental but Lion was equally wrong for betraying a fellow patriarch and brother on the battle field... seems like you won't even admit that ... so who is being biased .. hypocrite! You expect me to see your point without admiting Lion did anything wrong and without even seeing Russ' point at all... Atleast I can admit Russ was wrong on some parts but you still stand by Lion's decision to abandon Russ' back/flank in battle "directly" resulting in the death of many of Russ' men ... not "indirectly" because Russ wanted to rush off first but Fing DIRECTLY.... point your "biased" fingers at yourself, hypocrite

I'm not sure where these accusations are coming from. Did you read everything that I posted? The bit where I said The Lion did it for personal glory and they both got what they deserved?
Frankly, I think you saw "biased" and then got angry so didn't read anything else I posted, and I still think saying it was biased is correct. For example, you put directly and indirectly in quotations. I did not say that, I said nothing about The Lion causing the death of Russ's men indirectly. The fact that you're using the Space Wolves entry as fact is evidence enough of continued bias. Neither are wholly correct, they're legends, each side sticks to it's own version of events.
We know that Russ was insulted so wanted revenge.
The Lion had a carefully laid plan, that Russ was going to ruin.
The Lion sought personal glory as well as victory, so caused Russ's men to be killed.
Russ was angry that The Lion got his men killed, and that he killed the person who insulted him, so attacked the Lion.
The fought.
Russ thought it was childish, The Lion knocked him unconscious to end the fight.

Insults have no place in this discussion, I would advise you to edit before a mod gets there first. You would also do well to improve you're punctuation, like not using red underlined for so much, or not using dots between each statement. It's forum rules, and it's another thing Mods might pick up on.

KillThemAll wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's an incredibly biased view of it, and it's meant to be like that. Russ punched first, because The Lion took the kill, for his own personal glory and because he had a carefully laid plan that his brother was about to ruin with his head-strong ways. Russ threw the first punch because it was an insult to his honor and some of his men were killed. They fought. Russ stopped the fight, saying it was silly, despite starting it himself. The Lion punched him unconscious for starting it in the first place. Both got what they deserved

....
I am biased ? lolz IPROXTACO.. .that's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Plus, Who is to say Russ would have ruined it ... the Lion didn't even let him try just said "screw you I'm going first.. wether you or your men die or not" ... and you're going to defend the lion's actions no matter what also... atleast I have already conceeded to Russ being rash and tempramental but Lion was equally wrong for betraying a fellow patriarch and brother on the battle field... seems like you won't even admit that ... so who is being biased .. hypocrite! You expect me to see your point without admiting Lion did anything wrong and without even seeing Russ' point at all... Atleast I can admit Russ was wrong on some parts but you still stand by Lion's decision to abandon Russ' back/flank in battle "directly" resulting in the death of many of Russ' men ... not "indirectly" because Russ was "rash: wanted to rush off first but Fing DIRECTLY.... point your "biased" fingers at yourself, hypocrite

So after weeks of carefull planning the Lion should have just let Russ do whatever he wanted?

NO,,, like I said if ANYONE was paying attention. I conceed that Russ was rash and wrong in that aspect ... I can't say what Lion should have done because I don't know the whole battle ...BUT what Lion should NOT have done is act rash himself and desert his brother patriarch at the cost of Russ' men.


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You never leave a man on the battle field unprotected. never .. try that in the army and see how quickly someone frags your ass in the bathroom.

The Lion had a plan. The part of the Dark Angels codex had been quoted. Russ was going to ruin the plan. Both acted in their own nature, but Russ thew the first Punch. If he were so enlightened then he wouldn't have.

PS IPROXTACO .. you got it twisted.... my Belief in what Russ did is neither biased NOR blind like your blind faith "Bias" in Lion... It's my belief based on what I have read and I have backed it up by quotes directly from Lexicanum, the DA codex and the SW codex. While you have merely had a BIAS against the SW from the begining, have failed to quote hardly anything supporting text from approved sources, and can only repost mine and other's quotes to try to twist things/words to your own belief. I have already amitted to Russ' fault in his tact and temper yet you have blindly supported Lion from the begining without even consider he had any fault in abandoning Russ' flank.. Which killed MEN .. sorry but are you fing stupid ! ... no sir, I think you're the blind biased ones and this whole thing started because I responding to your trash talking about SW in the very begining, since PAGE 1... You have been trash talking SW from the very beginging since page one.. what did you think I was going to do just stand by while you told the world your viewpoint ? So point your bias t finger at yourself... and quit trying to act all "analytical" you haven't done much to support your claims other than blindly refuse any guilt of Lion's part in the whole mess... typical for someone that would follow such a bastard.

I don't think that dribble deserves a proper response. When you actually read my posts, calm down, and edit your posts so they are legible and void of insults, which are against forum rules, then we'll have a decent conversation. Currently, your own bias is blinding anything you say with rage.

hahahhaha ... ok what about your insults about russ in the beginging... dude don't try to act all "enlightened" yourself now... from page one you've been trash talking about Russ now you're going to hide from it and claim "forum" rules... go cry to mommy dakka. Typical brit .. starts a fight and won't finish it now trying to act all "civil" and above conversation when you're the one that started trash talking Russ in the begining.. I read your posts did you ?

I'm talking about insults to me personally. Call fictional characters whatever you want, there's no need to get angry at someone with a differing opinion to you.

hahahah dude get a hold of yourself... your the only one with biased... you've been trashing Russ from the begining .. fail to mention anything else but others posts. won't even read or comment on the lore posted from several sources or post your own approved lore to support your beliefs... you merely "conjecture" and "Inject" that Lion left to follow the plans... it doesn't even say that, you're trying to read his mind and have done nothing to support any of your claims with actual Lore refrences except to try to catch someone else in a slip up. where does it say that Lion left to stick to the plan ? in his own codex? Is that an INFERED belief ... Well, it states quite plainly in actual words NOT in interpretation.. "Suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke fromation leaving Russ' flank exposed" and you're going to blindly support that to the end with out even consceeding that was wrong ... Millitrally, that would get your shot by your own troops... if that's the kind of millatary conduct you believe in and find acceptable then no wonder we had to bail your asses out in the first place... for a fellow soilder to break formation and expose another soilders flank ON PURPOSE to an assualt from the enemy is nothing short of idiocy, travisty, and traitorus to your fellow soilder. Atleast I can admit that Russ failed on a point or two but you still won't conceed that Lion letting any of Russ' men die on purpose by DIRECTLY breaking formation... IF LION HAD PLANED ALL ALONG TO STICK TO PLAN WHY DID HE LION UP IN FORMATION WITH THE SW IN THE FIRST PLACE ONLY TO BREAK FORMATION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BATTLE> that is under handed and traitorous imo


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BS .. you need to read your own posts .. you're the first one that insulted me and called my opinion BIAS in the first place when your the one that can't see past El'Johnson's nose if your life depended on it ... biased and hypocritical.

Codex: Dark Angels wrote:It was on the world of Dulan where the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Dark Angels that matters came to a head. The Tyrant Durath had personally insulted the Emperor, sacrificing thousands of Imperial priests to his patron Daemon, and both Russ and Jonson desired the honour of slaying this heretic. The headstrong Primarch of the Space Wolves flew into a rage when Durath proclaimed that Russ was the Emperor's lap dog and would be fed to his pet grox.

Russ swore that he would cut Durath's head from his shoulders and demanded that the Dark Angels allow him to lead his Space Wolves in an immediate assault upon the Tyrant's Crimson Fortress. Jonson had spent days scouting the weak points of the fortress, meticulously planning the attack and was not about to let some hot-headed barbarian ruin his carefully laid plans. He refused Russ's demand and began the assault, storming the fortress with remarkably few casualties.

Russ, caught in a swirling combat at the base of the wall, could only howl in anger as he watched Jonson slay Durath high on the walls of the keep.

iproxtaco wrote:The fact that you're using the Space Wolves entry as fact is evidence enough of continued bias. Neither are wholly correct, they're legends, each side sticks to it's own version of events.
We know that Russ was insulted so wanted revenge.
The Lion had a carefully laid plan, that Russ was going to ruin.
The Lion sought personal glory as well as victory, so caused Russ's men to be killed.
Russ was angry that The Lion got his men killed, and that he killed the person who insulted him, so attacked the Lion.
The fought.
Russ thought it was childish, The Lion knocked him unconscious to end the fight.

Insults have no place in this discussion, I would advise you to edit before a mod gets there first. You would also do well to improve you're punctuation, like not using red underlined for so much, or not using dots between each statement. It's forum rules, and it's another thing Mods might pick up on.

iproxtaco wrote:Equally responsible for the outcome.

iproxtaco wrote:Both got what they deserved.

ps .. you're a lot like Lion.... bash on Russ, flame posts in the begining about him and then when someone steps up to defend you start pointing fingers and insulting him and puting his own words up in his face to try to prove YOUR biased side. and then when all this offends that person and he gets up set you try to play all civilalized and say "your rage" is at afualt well ofcourse someone's going to get angery at that.. you've been flaming your NEGATIVE opinion bout russ from the beginging started the name calling by calling me bias when you clearly are and now are supprised i got angry about it ? just like Lion, he leaves Russ' in battle, get's Russ' men killed, and still wants to point the finger at Russ for "getting angry" lolz. of course he got angry .. wouldn't you if your fellow soilder deserted you on the battlefield .. again Lion's actions have a stink to them all their own aswell.


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Peace I'm out of this one .. but thanks for the debate.

KillThemAll wrote:NO,,, like I said if ANYONE was paying attention. I conceed that Russ was rash and wrong in that aspect ... I can't say what Lion should have done because I don't know the whole battle ...BUT what Lion should NOT have done is act rash himself and desert his brother patriarch at the cost of Russ' men.


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You never leave a man on the battle field unprotected. never .. try that in the army and see how quickly someone frags your ass in the bathroom.

You know, it's all nice to think of the military as a place where everyone looks out for each other, but at the macro level, the military is a tool that is used to achieve objectives. If your objective is to take out the opposing commander, then what is important is achieving the objective with a minimum of losses. If the Lion thought that his strike could achieve the objective at a lesser cost than Russ' straight up the middle attack, then he made the correct call, even if one of the results of that call was that the Wolves' flank was exposed.

The Lion didn't respect Russ' vow? Well boo-hoo. How many Astarte lives is that git's honor worth? Especially when it's not honor at that point, it's ego.

The Lion didn't protect Russ' flank? Well just how many Wolves would have been thrown into the meat grinder if the Lion hadn't punched through, and thus weakened, their defenses.

Of course if you do something like that, you really should warn the people you are leaving exposed, but it's been pretty well established that both the Lion and Russ had the interpersonal skills of the ebola virus.

This discussion just reminds me why I like Alpharius and Omegon.

KillThemAll wrote:ps .. you're a lot like Lion.... bash on Russ, flame posts in the begining about him and then when someone steps up to defend you start pointing fingers and insulting him and puting his own words up in his face to try to prove YOUR biased side. and then when all this offends that person and he gets up set you try to play all civilalized and say "your rage" is at afualt well ofcourse someone's going to get angery at that.. you've been flaming your NEGATIVE opinion bout russ from the beginging started the name calling by calling me bias when you clearly are and now are supprised i got angry about it ? just like Lion, he leaves Russ' in battle, get's Russ' men killed, and still wants to point the finger at Russ for "getting angry" lolz. of course he got angry .. wouldn't you if your fellow soilder deserted you on the battlefield .. again Lion's actions have a stink to them all their own aswell.


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Peace I'm out of this one .. but thanks for the debate.

Not quite, but I'll let continue on your bias fueled rampage like a Horse with blinders. If you can't be bothered to read what I post then fine, there's really no point in you joining the discussion to start with.

The Lion made a choice to end the battle quicker, and I guess with less casualties. Russ tried to go in through the front door, which wasn't the best idea. I know which one I would follow.

Russ made his choice, the Lion made his.

By ending the battle quicker I guess the Space Wolves fared better than they would've done if the battle had of been a prolonged affair.

Maybe the Space Wolf version is their account and trying to pass the buck onto the Dark Angels as they recognise Russ's failing.

DaveNYC Russ and Lion had the same objective .. Russ wanted to kill the bad dude just as bad as lion so don't give me that BS that Lion was on objective and Russ was not... they both were going after the same goal AND BOTH let their pride get in the way of eachother... .Russ wanted to rush of into battle and Lion deserted his fellow patriarch and brother because BOTH wanted to get ther first ... so don't patronzie me. .. In the end BOTH had their faults .. my only problem is I have already admited to Russ' faults but you blind Dark Angels won't even conceed to any fault at all of Lion and to me that's just wrong.. .Lion was just as guilty of letting his pride and ambition get in the way as Russ. It's the common "competeing brothers' story Line and I bet the writers meant it that way.. what erks me is you DA won't admit any fault on Lion's part which to me is blind following and BIAS yet and hypocritical for iproxtaco to call me bias in the first place when I can atleast admit Russ' fault in the matter and he will not conceed to Lion's fault at all... Truth is THEY BOTH where guilty of letting their pride get in the way.! peroid end of story thanks for playing .. who ever the original guy is that posted for SW vs Man eaters .. .sorry I took your post somewhere else :( lol appologies

Should I quote myself again? I clearly have conceded that they are equally responsible, you just don't want to admit that you don't read what people post, or you're so insufferably arrogant that you don't want to admit you've been caught out.

The difference is Russ wanted to regain his honour the Lion wanted to finish the battle.

Russ put himself above his men.

Either way they both are too blame for what went down and both are rather sucky chapters anyway. World Eaters would kick both their asses.

KillThemAll wrote:SW vs Man eaters

lol ... Man eaters ...

Pilau Rice wrote: both are rather sucky chapters anyway. World Eaters would kick both their asses.

THANK you.

At least someone else said it. I didn't think I was the only rational person on Dakka, but this thread had me doubting...

Would I look bad if I agreed also? Because I do. World Eaters, and Angron for that matter, are better than both in my opinion.

World Eaters. (I can't believe I just read all that back and forth argueing for 5 pages to post two words )

Fireknife wrote:World Eaters. (I can't believe I just read all that back and forth argueing for 5 pages to post two words )

Its all personal preference anyways bro. This doesn't make me wanna kill my self because the way other people feel.

I'm a bit biased I'll admit, its not that I like the World Eaters, I just feel the Thousand Sons got shafted.

<broadcast mode active: simmer down, folks; while this is undoubtedly a REALLY SERIOUS topic, it doesn't merit as much emotion as some of you are spewing. Don't make me moderate you; you won't like it>

It should be the World Eaters just for the sake of a good story. What's the point of being insane bloodthirsty bezerkers, if the end result is that you're not even the best close quarter fighters?

That's the problem with dialing up the awesome level on chapters like the Ultramarines and Space Wolves. Mary Sues are boring. Give each chapter a good solid flaw, especially one that works as the dark side to one of their strengths, and you're cooking with gas.

Yeah I agree, I prefer World eaters. Pissed of with giant chainaxes in space. In the first war for armmagedon the space wolves would have lost if the grey knights hadn't have shown up.

Lol Iproxtaco give it up .. i got your number already .. read your first and 2nd pages .. you did nothing but post about russ negatively .. if I had the patients to copy them all down and prove to you I would but at this point I simply don't ... so go ahead think what you want .. truth is you've been bashing russ since the begining and a think Lion's shizz don't stink... you called me bias and you seemed generally unwilling to admit any fault on Lion's part since day one.. go ahead point out your one post that says contrary .. your one in 100. lolz



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iproxtaco wrote:Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.

iproxtaco wrote:iproxtaco wrote:
Not quite. I read the book, Russ was hopelessly outclassed until he scored a lucky strike on Magnus's weak spot as he flailed wildly whilst Magnus had the extreme upper hand. Who performed better? Magnus. Russ won due to a lucky attack, not due to superior skill.

iproxtaco wrote:The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

Well, looks like I had the patients to find a few.. wow look I read them lolz. ... dude truth is whether you see it or not you're anti Russ and pro lion .. which is fine you can hate Russ all you want and you can even shout to the heavens how awesome Lion is. You can even say that it's just what you believe and how you feel about Russ.. fine i get that... What I don't agree with is when I disagree and start posting stuff with lore references NOT EVEN POINTED AT YOU.. you start reposting on my stuff trying to rip them appart like you got a personal vendetta against Russ and me and Lion's shizz don't stink.. then when I dissagree you point your finger at me and call me BIAS ?? dude you got it backwards, which is fine... just don't get your panties in a wad when I post back that I dissagree with you .. and sure as heck don't call me bias when you are about as bias as they come towards Lion. Makes you look like a hypocrit imo ..
Now, I'm going to sit back and wait for your post .. your post of my posts actually. I am also going put on my sun glasses because the glare from Lion's Halo is just to dam bright ! lolz .. "Russ started it" childish he still accepts no responsibility.


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amyways .. .peace ..
No harm no faul .. enjoy your day

You are embarrassing yourself. The first is not a criticism, but rather an observation on the difference between Angron and Russ: both are merciless, Angron doesn't really follow orders whereas Russ does.

The other two are the same thing and are a factual description of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

There is no personal vendetta, no one is defending the Lion, you are just obsessed with Russ for whatever reason and have been hostile and defensive for the last couple of pages. Please step back and re-read what you're writing, and what tone you have taken for the last two pages. Adding a little "peace" at the end with a smiley face doesn't excuse railing against someone for endless, barely coherent and illegible paragraphs.

It's like someone saying, "You are a stupid donkey-cave and I hope horrible things happen to you... no offense". You see how the last part doesn't really cancel out the first? That's basically what you're doing.

KillThemAll wrote:Lol Iproxtaco give it up .. i got your number already .. read your first and 2nd pages .. you did nothing but post about russ negatively .. if I had the patients to copy them all down and prove to you I would but at this point I simply don't ... so go ahead think what you want .. truth is you've been bashing russ since the begining and a think Lion's shizz don't stink... you called me bias and you seemed generally unwilling to admit any fault on Lion's part since day one.. go ahead point out your one post that says contrary .. your one in 100. lolz



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iproxtaco wrote:Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.

iproxtaco wrote:iproxtaco wrote:
Not quite. I read the book, Russ was hopelessly outclassed until he scored a lucky strike on Magnus's weak spot as he flailed wildly whilst Magnus had the extreme upper hand. Who performed better? Magnus. Russ won due to a lucky attack, not due to superior skill.

iproxtaco wrote:The duel that Russ was hopelessly out-classed in, until, and I quote, he "flailed wildly" whilst Magnus was beating on his ass, and scratched Magnus's eye with a lucky strike. This is whilst he had his Wolves helping him. Yeah, he's not exactly the best fighter, one on one.

Well, looks like I had the patients to find a few.. wow look I read them lolz. ... dude truth is whether you see it or not you're anti Russ and pro lion .. which is fine you can hate Russ all you want and you can even shout to the heavens how awesome Lion is. You can even say that it's just what you believe and how you feel about Russ.. fine i get that... What I don't agree with is when I disagree and start posting stuff with lore references NOT EVEN POINTED AT YOU.. you start reposting on my stuff trying to rip them appart like you got a personal vendetta against Russ and me and Lion's shizz don't stink.. then when I dissagree you point your finger at me and call me BIAS ?? dude you got it backwards, which is fine... just don't get your panties in a wad when I post back that I dissagree with you .. and sure as heck don't call me bias when you are about as bias as they come towards Lion. Makes you look like a hypocrit imo ..
Now, I'm going to sit back and wait for your post .. your post of my posts actually. I am also going put on my sun glasses because the glare from Lion's Halo is just to dam bright ! lolz .. "Russ started it" childish he still accepts no responsibility.


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amyways .. .peace ..
No harm no faul .. enjoy your day

I'm tired of replying to your personal attacks. A few things make it quite obvious that you're full of gak. Firstly, your spelling and grammar. Shape up, and this is a warning before a mod asks the same thing. Secondly, I quoted myself showing how this accusations of hypocrisy is wrong, but I was IGNORED, either because you're too arrogant and biased towards Russ to admit you've been caught out, or because you don't read anything that people write in reply. Thirdly, the fact that you think I have a personal vendetta against you and a fictional character. That's just laughable. Russ is fictional, don't get so uptight about it, I certainly don't when my preferred characters are criticized. If you can't take someone replying to you with a differing opinion them you'd best leave the forum, because there's plenty of unique people on here and every other site that will do the same.
I don't know why I'm posting it, everything will be ignored again in favor of more rubbish about hypocrisy and the Lion Halo.

<thread terminated; I warned you>