Legacy Miniatures is excited to announce that they have secured the license to the entire Confrontation back catalog, and will immediately start producing previously released and unreleased figures from this amazing and sorely missed miniatures line.
Confrontation was a game published by Rackham Entertainment until it entered liquidation in 2009, and some of the most amazing 28mm figures in the world ceased to be available at that time. Cyanide Studios, a prominent French video game developer, has acquired the Confrontation IP and has licensed the miniatures to Legacy Miniatures.
Legacy Miniatures is excited to announce that they have secured the license to the entire Confrontation back catalog, and will immediately start producing previously released and unreleased figures from this amazing and sorely missed miniatures line.
That sounds pretty cool, I've seen old confrontation stuff and it looks awesome
Goddamn! Confrontation had THE baddes unpainted metals! I hope that release is talking about the unpainted metals and not the PPMs.
I had Griffon, Wolfen, and Devourer armies. I remember back in 2009 making huge purchases from MiniatureMarket when the line went to the trough. That line was sorely missed. I'm glad it's coming back!
Legacy Miniatures is excited to announce that they have secured the license to the entire Confrontation back catalog, and will immediately start producing previously released and unreleased figures from this amazing and sorely missed miniatures line.
Confrontation was a game published by Rackham Entertainment until it entered liquidation in 2009, and some of the most amazing 28mm figures in the world ceased to be available at that time. Cyanide Studios, a prominent French video game developer, has acquired the Confrontation IP and has licensed the miniatures to Legacy Miniatures.
"We're incredibly pleased", said Vincent Fontaine Artistic Director of Legacy Miniatures and former Paint Director of Rackham Entertainment. "We're starting out slowly and doing about 2 to 4 releases a month, some miniatures that never saw production before Rackham closed its doors."
Working exclusively with CoolMiniOrNot, these "new" releases and re-releases of old favorites will first be avaliable at Gencon 2011 Indy, with the never before seen Hydraand the rare Flesh Golem making their debut. The plan currently is to produce limited runs, these incredibly hot miniatures will be sure to sell out fast!
"Obviously we're thrilled", said David Doust, co-founder of Cool Mini Or Not. "Although we handle beautiful miniatures every day, there is something special about Confrontation. We're looking forward to helping bring these miniatures back to life."
Awesome news.
Being a Dirz collector I'd love to see this range re-juvinated. There were even plastic designs that never made it either like Athan Zakhil and his Prime Abberation that would be welcome additions.
And please, dont neglect AT-43.
Legend ed. Grim Golem Overseer, ONI zombie TACArmour variants and Korp troops....
Like I've said on other forums: AWESOME! This is some great news. I didn't absolutely -love- the miniatures (Okay, for the most part I did). I did however seriously enjoy the way the game played. I didn't have much experience with the game (admittedly), but I did get enough to understand that there was something special involved.
Now if only AT-43 could make a comeback. My wallet would be in for some serious hurt.
This is great news !!! Confrontation models were stunning and such a refreshing aesthetic (IMHO) that they reinvigorated my interest in the hobby.
But ...
I don't want to pee in anyone's cornflakes but didn't Rackham Entertainment, when they fully committed to pre-painted plastic, say they were destroying the spin-cast molds used to produce their metal models ?? I hope I'm remembering incorrectly but I seem to recall something like that on their own forums as they kicked-off a huge inventory sell-off of all their metal stock.
Myrthe wrote:This is great news !!! Confrontation models were stunning and such a refreshing aesthetic (IMHO) that they reinvigorated my interest in the hobby.
But ...
I don't want to pee in anyone's cornflakes but didn't Rackham Entertainment, when they fully committed to pre-painted plastic, say they were destroying the spin-cast molds used to produce their metal models ?? I hope I'm remembering incorrectly but I seem to recall something like that on their own forums as they kicked-off a huge inventory sell-off of all their metal stock.
Jean Bey still had the masters used to make the molds.
I was just looking through all the old pics I had saved especially those of the Wyrm. A couple were WIP but the rest were of the finished piece that was probably meant for a Legends release? Tooo long ago. Pity the Dirz collection is really loaded up with Abberation types as the Zakhil Prime would have been nice also.
If I'm hearing that these will (hopefully) be produced from the masters and not degraded molds this would be even better news.
Confrontation was the only miniature line where going plastic was a huge mistake, because their plastics were gak. The only one of the metals of theirs that I ever owned was the Ogre mercenary that was wearing the elephant head, but it was a joy to paint.
Hrmm, it says "entire back catalogue", but nothing specifically about metal vs plastics. Are they rereleasing both lines then? Thats one of their metal models it looks like, and I do remember seeing pics of it but don't remember where (Cry Havoc magazine probably), but it's mounted on a round base like those of the plastics.
Which leads me to the biggest question, what's happening with the game itself? A miniatures line is neat and all, but the game is what makes it. Here's hoping they go back to Confrontation3 skirmish rules, which remains one of my favorite games of all time. The plastic confrontation rules only had one thing going for em: armybooks. If we can get Con3 with armybooks instead of card packs then I'll the happiest man alive, even if I have to rebase all of my figs.
Now to find which box I shoved all my old wolfen that I never finished painting...
Delephont wrote:I think the game needs to be refounded first, without the game, the miniatures become almost pointless.
I wouldn't be so sure. For all the people who collected the miniatures to paint, I've come across comparatively few who actually played the game. I suspect that's a large part of why Rackham ran into so much trouble when they switched to pre-paints... if the majority of their market was painters rather than people actually interested in their game, switching to pre-painted plastics was never going to work.
Delephont wrote:I think the game needs to be refounded first, without the game, the miniatures become almost pointless.
I wouldn't be so sure. For all the people who collected the miniatures to paint, I've come across comparatively few who actually played the game. I suspect that's a large part of why Rackham ran into so much trouble when they switched to pre-paints... if the majority of their market was painters rather than people actually interested in their game, switching to pre-painted plastics was never going to work.
I'm almost sure I have a copy of the micro-rulebook that came with the miniatures. Bring along a magnifier and it's on!
For a while it actually did replace GW for me I liked the more interactive nature of the mechanics and the fact you didn't spend ages waiting for your opponents turn. This has mae my day/week/year! Don't think its the pre-paints as it's the ex figure painter releasing the range....
precinctomega wrote:This is wonderful news. I look forward to building that Wolfen collection I always wanted.
NB/ Fantasy Flight Games bought the rights to AT-43 and the Confrontation plastics.
R.
Didn't realise that the sculpts were from Confrontation
Have eyed those up as some of the best werewolves should I decide to have a unit for gaming.
I think I just got into gaming after or around the time of the demise, so was not fully aware of the range of sculpts.
Just seen the news on BoW and they look like good models.
Bring the minis I don't care about the rules anymore... Its good to have one of the best lines around and not hidden on forgotten stores or explored at ebay... These minis deserve a big and nice spot in the sun for all to enjoy some of the best fantasy miniatures ever done.
Depending on prices I can see myself making another faction for my collections...
warpcrafter wrote:Confrontation was the only miniature line where going plastic was a huge mistake, because their plastics were gak. The only one of the metals of theirs that I ever owned was the Ogre mercenary that was wearing the elephant head, but it was a joy to paint.
Sorry, not quite right. Their prepaints were crap but their first dive into plastic was nothing short of awesome considering when it was made. The Aberration Prime is still one of my all time favorite models. This is the conundrum that was rackham - how they went from awesome to gak so very quickly, a good lesson to those who want to start a mini company.
precinctomega wrote:This is wonderful news. I look forward to building that Wolfen collection I always wanted.
NB/ Fantasy Flight Games bought the rights to AT-43 and the Confrontation plastics.
R.
FFG probably is going to release the Red Block as Sino-Soviets and the Cogs for the Alien Vrill for DUST Tactics as that's what AT-43 was going to be anyways...
Myrthe wrote:This is great news !!! Confrontation models were stunning and such a refreshing aesthetic (IMHO) that they reinvigorated my interest in the hobby.
But ...
I don't want to pee in anyone's cornflakes but didn't Rackham Entertainment, when they fully committed to pre-painted plastic, say they were destroying the spin-cast molds used to produce their metal models ?? I hope I'm remembering incorrectly but I seem to recall something like that on their own forums as they kicked-off a huge inventory sell-off of all their metal stock.
Jean Bey still had the masters used to make the molds.
And he's a pretty awesome guy since he - ya know - INVENTED the world of Aarklash.
Platuan4th wrote:
Jean Bey still had the masters used to make the molds.
And he's a pretty awesome guy since he - ya know - INVENTED the world of Aarklash.
EXCELLENT !! I'm glad to hear it !! So is Jean Bey involved in Confrontation again? Rackham Enterprises made a HUGE mistake when the ousted him in the first place. It wasn't the beginning of their problems, but it certainly sped up The End !! While his strengths may not have been for running the original Rackham since it grew so rapidly, his talent was certainly for creating the amazing imagery of Aarklash and the new owners squandered that.
I'm thrilled by this news as so many of you are !!
Paolo already showed us how the Sinosoviets will look like in his comics and with hits kits and as far as I know he has no intetntions of straying from this path.
Bey is not involved in the reviving of the minis, at least not officially.
warpcrafter wrote:Confrontation was the only miniature line where going plastic was a huge mistake, because their plastics were gak. The only one of the metals of theirs that I ever owned was the Ogre mercenary that was wearing the elephant head, but it was a joy to paint.
Sorry, not quite right. Their prepaints were crap but their first dive into plastic was nothing short of awesome considering when it was made. The Aberration Prime is still one of my all time favorite models. This is the conundrum that was rackham - how they went from awesome to gak so very quickly, a good lesson to those who want to start a mini company.
Those first plastics were a token effort. They probably spent a lot of money making them, decided it was too expensive and then went with the horrible chinese made crap.
Which is surprising considering how effortlessly other miniature companies have produced flawless plastic kits of the same quality as their metal figures! Just look at Mantic's plastic Orcs compared to the metals!
If this is a line for miniature painting only, then fair enough....although , personally, if I was going to spend alot of money on a single (special edition) miniature, just for painting and display, I'd sooner spend on 54mm stuff, rather than dealing with the obvious compromises made on detail at 28mm scale....
I am glad this is happening. Hopefully it will pull down some of the prices on ebay. I need some more ophidians, eclipsantes and vestals. May even finish getting some goblins - some much character in such small models!
Much of the Confrontation line was gorgeous and amazing. Even if at an expensive limited run price point, it'll still be nice to see some of those models in production again.
Myrthe wrote: Rackham Enterprises made a HUGE mistake when the ousted him in the first place.
Yeah, Rackham managers firing Jean Bey would be like GW firing the inventor of Warhammer/40k Rick Priestley, GW would never do something stupid like that
Anyway, waiting for the rerelease of the Japanese Goblins.
Fantastic news! I've wanted to use the Dirz models in my Dark Eldar army but they've been hard to come by. The Tigers would make great beasts and Abberations great Grotesques. There's probably a viable alternate Haemonculus somewhere in there too now that I think about it.
Always been a big fan of the minis in general as well.
Myrthe wrote: Rackham Enterprises made a HUGE mistake when the ousted him in the first place.
Yeah, Rackham managers firing Jean Bey would be like GW firing the inventor of Warhammer/40k Rick Priestley, GW would never do something stupid like that
Anyway, waiting for the rerelease of the Japanese Goblins.
Have all of those sweet uraken gobbos, one of the many old Rackham highlights.
The mentioning of Limited edition doesn't look very promising in therms of future prices... every time its mentioned it has a ugly price tag attached.
I'm not particularly thrilled about this. I liked some of their stuff but as a fan of the Werewolves PP has got that concept covered for me. This feels very backwards looking, unless they get the original sculptors on board it can only ever be a time capsule and that won't be strong competition for other miniatures companies and push them forward. IMO this is the same as GW's recent reissuing of old models and shows a lack of imagination.
Given the 'uproar' over GWs price hikes (AUS and regional gouging aside) I'm surprised anyone can afford purely collector's miniatures. As I said, I like the range but I cant see it moving forwards in an innovating way.
I'm really excited by this announcement. I missed the metal Confrontation stuff when it first came out. It'll be cool to be able to get my hands on some metal stuff.
Have all of those sweet uraken gobbos, one of the many old Rackham highlights.
The mentioning of Limited edition doesn't look very promising in therms of future prices... every time its mentioned it has a ugly price tag attached.
Amen, but for the Uraken it would SO worth it... I just want Bazuka and the Samurai infantry. The other guys were neat, but I still want to kick myself for not getting the elite infantry when I had the chance.
EDIT: Samurats! Oh, Jean Bey - how I miss your amusing unit names.
Though, I think it was the Bushi and Bazuka I wanted, not the Samurats.
NAVARRO wrote:Have all of those sweet uraken gobbos, one of the many old Rackham highlights.
I also own some of them, but I need much more for my Japanese themed Skaven army as slaves.
I hunted them down for a Japanese flavoured Bloodbowl team.
I'm just going to use them just for big warbands of songs of blades and heroes skirmish games... but there are still lots of things I never managed to get for other factions and wished I had been faster on getting them because today prices are prohibitive.
Scottywan82 wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Have all of those sweet uraken gobbos, one of the many old Rackham highlights.
The mentioning of Limited edition doesn't look very promising in therms of future prices... every time its mentioned it has a ugly price tag attached.
Amen, but for the Uraken it would SO worth it... I just want Bazuka and the Samurai infantry. The other guys were neat, but I still want to kick myself for not getting the elite infantry when I had the chance.
EDIT: Samurats! Oh, Jean Bey - how I miss your amusing unit names.
Though, I think it was the Bushi and Bazuka I wanted, not the Samurats.
Don't forget the sooo nice ninjas and the dai bakemonos minis, so cool... uraken was blessed with so many gems that its hard to pick up just one mini...
At the end of rackham golden times the Bushi were quite hard to get but there was plenty of samurats.
The only uraken I really disliked were the mad wheels, I disliked the concept so much that I dodged that box set.
Bloodwin wrote:I'm not particularly thrilled about this. I liked some of their stuff but as a fan of the Werewolves PP has got that concept covered for me. This feels very backwards looking, unless they get the original sculptors on board it can only ever be a time capsule and that won't be strong competition for other miniatures companies and push them forward. IMO this is the same as GW's recent reissuing of old models and shows a lack of imagination.
Given the 'uproar' over GWs price hikes (AUS and regional gouging aside) I'm surprised anyone can afford purely collector's miniatures. As I said, I like the range but I cant see it moving forwards in an innovating way.
Bloodwin wrote:I'm not particularly thrilled about this. I liked some of their stuff but as a fan of the Werewolves PP has got that concept covered for me. This feels very backwards looking, unless they get the original sculptors on board it can only ever be a time capsule and that won't be strong competition for other miniatures companies and push them forward. IMO this is the same as GW's recent reissuing of old models and shows a lack of imagination.
If a company wants to hitch their wagon to a dead horse, that's their business, really. Without a game and without actual new figures, these will be just a momentary curiosity that will doubtless sell far worse than they expect. Confrontation is dead, its fans have moved on.
I'm just going to use them just for big warbands of songs of blades and heroes skirmish games... but there are still lots of things I never managed to get for other factions and wished I had been faster on getting them because today prices are prohibitive.
Obviously we don't know for sure yet, but since they seem to be lining this up as a 'collectors and painters' thing, I am not so sure the prices will be all that attractive...
Bloodwin wrote:I'm not particularly thrilled about this. I liked some of their stuff but as a fan of the Werewolves PP has got that concept covered for me. This feels very backwards looking, unless they get the original sculptors on board it can only ever be a time capsule and that won't be strong competition for other miniatures companies and push them forward. IMO this is the same as GW's recent reissuing of old models and shows a lack of imagination.
If a company wants to hitch their wagon to a dead horse, that's their business, really. Without a game and without actual new figures, these will be just a momentary curiosity that will doubtless sell far worse than they expect. Confrontation is dead, its fans have moved on.
Honestly, I disagree. Before they went to prepaints, Confrontation had some of the best fantasy minis out there with one of the most original takes on the genre to boot, and as evidenced by prices on ebay, people still want the models and are willing to pay a fair amount for them. Plus there's people like me who never had a chance to get any of Confrontation's stuff because it had died by the time that we started up the hobby, but would love to get our hands on some.
Will it be enough of a hit to restart the game? Iunno, I'd love it if it was, but I don't expect it to. But if the reaction from the majority of this thread is any indication, there's still a market for Confrontation's minis out there, and I expect this will do pretty decently.
Sarrazon wrote:
Will it be enough of a hit to restart the game?
Restarting the game is not stated to be in the cards. The news item only says they will be rereleasing old miniatures, nothing new and probably no rules material.
NAVARRO wrote:Have all of those sweet uraken gobbos, one of the many old Rackham highlights.
I also own some of them, but I need much more for my Japanese themed Skaven army as slaves.
I hunted them down for a Japanese flavoured Bloodbowl team.
I'm just going to use them just for big warbands of songs of blades and heroes skirmish games... but there are still lots of things I never managed to get for other factions and wished I had been faster on getting them because today prices are prohibitive.
I need them for my Ninja Mordtheim gang. And the cyclops Troll for my Pirate Ogre army.
Sarrazon wrote:
Will it be enough of a hit to restart the game?
Restarting the game is not stated to be in the cards. The news item only says they will be rereleasing old miniatures, nothing new and probably no rules material.
As someone who enjoyed C3 I hope they re-release the rule books and move people play. I don't however hold out much hope for that but don't think the outlook will be as gloomy as your earlier post but then I don't think it will be successful as others hope.
What I really want is Cry HAvoc to restart but that will never happen - loved that magazine.
I was really thrilled to hear about this over the weekend! I have a pretty large collection now, but there are still LOTS of models I want to get. The limited price might be a stumbling block for me, but it can't be a lot worse than it is now and at least I will be able to get a hold of some stuff you can never get on eBay for less than your first born (Fiannas).
Also, I have a stack of the mini rule books for Confrontation and Incantation, and could probably get some nice quality copies of the cards at Kinko's for people who want to play the game if you let me know. I don't know what it would cost, but probably not much?
Well having played confrontation alot in the old days, and still having a fair amount of stuff....As I think its the best skirmish mini game made to date. Nothing GW or many other companies have done holds a candle on the skirmish level IMO.
I hope its minis and rules, no confirmation on the rules yet...if they really want to sell the minis tho they will have to do a rules set again, or their sales will be low is my guess. My money is divided between to many hobbies anymore to use on minis that I wont be using for actual enjoyment. Sitting on a shelf and never being used in a game isnt on the agenda lol.
However, if they do re-launch the game it must have an update. The last year of releases they did had noticeable power creep and several last minute rules changes in conf 3.5 online rules release that were drastic changes to the game. So Im all for for a Confrontation V4 skirmish game they just need to tweak a couple things and adjust point totals on the minis and it would be a great system again.
Also they stated that never before released minis will be made. The HYDRA is supposed to be released at gencon, this mini was never previously released.
You can find plenty of hardcover Confrontation rulebooks on ebay dirt cheap. I play confrontation to this day and I have never lost interest in the game. Many people slagged the rules system for being clunky but, I think it's basically a good system.
I was initially thrilled until I read that CMON is in control of this:
Alpharius wrote:"Obviously we're thrilled", said David Doust, co-founder of Cool Mini Or Not. "Although we handle beautiful miniatures every day, there is something special about Confrontation. We're looking forward to helping bring these miniatures back to life."
Oh how quickly the miniatures world forgets the diarrhea that was NEWWAVE MINIATURES and the gross fraudulent activities that David Doust involved himself in, not even a decade ago.
I however have not forgotten being ripped of for hundreds of dollars in product that was never rectified, so this news that should be outstanding and great news leaves me feeling somewhat reserved.
Edit to add link of merely one example of MANY on the net regarding Newwave's chicanery
Something I found in an old album, think it was meant to be Isateph Cavalry mentioned in the CAOR Dirz book. Have a lot of other Dirz pics including the Wyrm but the majority are un-released hero sets and Abberation types pre-paint. Anyways if they released this guy I'd be quite satisfied.
From what I've read FFG acquired the rights to the plastic range, so how have they detemined available products? Does FFGs license incorporate all the prototypes (IP) that were intended for Ragnarok or just those that were released in plastic (actual product)? Seems a little strange. Hope its more the latter.
Hekal Xul wrote:From what I've read FFG acquired the rights to the plastic range, so how have they detemined available products? Does FFGs license incorporate all the prototypes (IP) that were intended for Ragnarok or just those that were released in plastic (actual product)? Seems a little strange. Hope its more the latter.
Where did you read that? And how old was it?
FFG havent distributed Rackham products for years now. I never heard of them acquiring the rights to anything that rackham has done with the exception of distributing board and card games produced under license by DUST Game Ltd.
Hellfury wrote:I was initially thrilled until I read that CMON is in control of this:
Alpharius wrote:"Obviously we're thrilled", said David Doust, co-founder of Cool Mini Or Not. "Although we handle beautiful miniatures every day, there is something special about Confrontation. We're looking forward to helping bring these miniatures back to life."
Oh how quickly the miniatures world forgets the diarrhea that was NEWWAVE MINIATURES and the gross fraudulent activities that David Doust involved himself in, not even a decade ago.
I however have not forgotten being ripped of for hundreds of dollars in product that was never rectified, so this news that should be outstanding and great news leaves me feeling somewhat reserved.
Edit to add link of merely one example of MANY on the net regarding Newwave's chicanery
I remeber all the New Wave drama from years ago. Their website was handy for researching mini lines and they had some good event coverage, but I never ordered from them, so I never personally got burned. They must be doing something right lately since I've never heard anything negative about the service from CMoN.
If pure collector lines do badly how do you explain Avatars of War? Rackham Limited Editions weren't priced differently to their main range anyway, I have reasonable hopes for this. I'd also like a couple of the models for other projects. My real hopes are to get my hands on Salias Yesod and Kassalis Venin for my Adeptus Mechanicus stuff.
Llamahead wrote:If pure collector lines do badly how do you explain Avatars of War?
Avatars of War aren't really a pure collector's range...
Exactly!
They fit so well into GW's existing Fantasy Lines that I'm surprised that they aren't 'official' miniatures!
A pure "collector's line" based off of a now defunct game system that isn't going to be brought back?
I'm not saying it will sink the ship, but it will certainly limit my purchases, especially as the miniatures, while undeniably beautiful, don't really 'fit' the aesthetic of any system I currently use.
On top of all that, AoW actually have their own game/rule set too, "Arena DeathMatch".
Most of masters have been recovered but not the moulds.
They are having to make the moulds from scratch, which has influenced the decision to do limited numbers of resin releases.
Pleasantly surprised that they're planning to include the cards with the minis, I didn't think that was an expense they'd want to deal with.
Thinking about it, it was pretty incredible the amount of stuff crammed into some of those Confrontation blisters. 5+ cards, full colour rule booklet, full colour card tokens, and it's not as if they were setting new price points either.
oooooo! Resin. I am pretty sure there will be some fine casting coming out of this effort. I am sold. Not happy it is CMoN involved though - that will reduce how much I order.
fullheadofhair wrote:oooooo! Resin. I am pretty sure there will be some fine casting coming out of this effort. I am sold. Not happy it is CMoN involved though - that will reduce how much I order.
Same here - and lack of support for a 'new' edition of the game might reduce my order size further still...
What's the problem with CMoN exactly? I haven't ordered a tonne from them exactly, but apart from some of their early painting contest minis being garbage I haven't had any problems either.
and from right here in this very thread, one page back:
Hellfury wrote:I was initially thrilled until I read that CMON is in control of this:
Alpharius wrote:"Obviously we're thrilled", said David Doust, co-founder of Cool Mini Or Not. "Although we handle beautiful miniatures every day, there is something special about Confrontation. We're looking forward to helping bring these miniatures back to life."
Oh how quickly the miniatures world forgets the diarrhea that was NEWWAVE MINIATURES and the gross fraudulent activities that David Doust involved himself in, not even a decade ago.
I however have not forgotten being ripped of for hundreds of dollars in product that was never rectified, so this news that should be outstanding and great news leaves me feeling somewhat reserved.
Edit to add link of merely one example of MANY on the net regarding Newwave's chicanery
I remember that Hydra, not on my wish list... I would rather see all of midnor old minis back on sale... That would be a faction I would enjoy collecting and was about to do that before they turned off the plug on that faction.
Alpharius wrote:They have an unfortunate link (direct) to a rather shady past.
Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
I have bought from CMON a few times and they were fine folks. I don't know about past problems, but after 4-5 orders of various sizes I haven't had any issues. They are not the Warstore, but perfectly acceptable.
Alpharius wrote:They have an unfortunate link (direct) to a rather shady past.
Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
I'm fairly certain it wasn't just three or so guys on the net that were victimized by "New Wave Miniatures" back in the day.
But, also in the name of fairness, CMON seems to have not followed down the same path.
Anyway, that Hydra miniature is all kinds of weird.
I'd love to see a painted version, as I'm not sure whether or not I like it!
Thanks for the pic. Now I remember why I had a distinct lack of enthusiasm. I don't see any overt visual tie in with the rest of the mid nor range. I guess the next step is to wait to see it's rules and a painted version. I think it is a really weak way to start up the rereleased range. Why not start with a proven crown pleaser from Dirz or even something else from mid nor. The flesh golem was never a really popular model and the hydra is totally blah.
I like parts of the hydra, not a stunning model though. If that's really a WIP then maybe there is still some Mid-Nor-ification to occur.
I do like the Flesh Golem, but it stretches my capacity to fool myself into thinking I'll ever paint/use it.
I'd be all over something as simple as Black Paladins though.
Got a blister off Ebay a while before and plan to make a fantasy diorama some time in the future. On the other hand I'd like to paint them as a gift to a few people...I hope they make more of them.
plastictrees wrote:Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
One thing I hate in life is internet know it alls with no clue about what they are talking about. You must be either young, new to gaming or internet forums not to have heard of NWM. It was more than three people and people lost quite a bit of money. They took a lot of money from many people knowing they didn't have the stock to send out - their customer service also sucked which was a pain when they charged your credit card and then didn't send out orders or better yet partial orders. Before you make smart ass comments do a bit of research so you don;t look like an idiot.
plastictrees wrote:Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
One thing I hate in life is internet know it alls with no clue about what they are talking about. You must be either young, new to gaming or internet forums not to have heard of NWM. It was more than three people and people lost quite a bit of money. They took a lot of money from many people knowing they didn't have the stock to send out - their customer service also sucked which was a pain when they charged your credit card and then didn't send out orders or better yet partial orders. Before you make smart ass comments do a bit of research so you don;t look like an idiot.
Some people did get credited (I was one of them) but that may have
been because of the BBB reports and such. However, the stock that
did arrive came with shredded papers for filler...and what appeared to
be business or transaction documents. I never actually glued the stuff
together to figure it out (Penguin from Batman Returns), but it seemed
like a bad idea to even send stuff out like that.
plastictrees wrote:Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
One thing I hate in life is internet know it alls with no clue about what they are talking about. You must be either young, new to gaming or internet forums not to have heard of NWM. It was more than three people and people lost quite a bit of money. They took a lot of money from many people knowing they didn't have the stock to send out - their customer service also sucked which was a pain when they charged your credit card and then didn't send out orders or better yet partial orders. Before you make smart ass comments do a bit of research so you don;t look like an idiot.
You seem annoyed. Maybe take a nap or have a sandwich. I can get pretty cranky when I'm hungry.
Far from being a know it all, I'm specifically saying that I don't know what the people saying to be wary of CMON are talking about. I found the link provided pretty vague, and I certainly don't care enough about this to start researching it if the people warning others in this thread don't feel the need to elaborate. I was only sporadically paying attention to DakkaDakka and the internet TTG/mini community in general between about 2005 and 2007, so if this happened during that time I likely missed it.
N'Ferno wrote:I'm still in love with these three.
Got a blister off Ebay a while before and plan to make a fantasy diorama some time in the future. On the other hand I'd like to paint them as a gift to a few people...I hope they make more of them.
They are pretty awesome. The worst thing about this is going to be the slow release schedule. Well, hopefully that's the worst thing...I guess I'll wait until we see some prices.
plastictrees wrote:Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
Rot is still rot if you plaster over it. These people are not getting my money.
Alpharius wrote:They have an unfortunate link (direct) to a rather shady past.
Yeah, I saw the earlier link. I thought there might be something more nefarious and damning than three or so anonymous guys on the internet that might have been ripped off five years ago.
I've heard no complaints about CMON, and they've had a store for a while now, I'm not seeing the problem.
Didn't you have a habit yourself of taking army commissions and not completing work / refunding money / returning minis? It's not surprising that your sympathies lie with Newave.
I was only sporadically paying attention to DakkaDakka and the internet TTG/mini community in general between about 2005 and 2007, so if this happened during that time I likely missed it.
Yeah I think it was around this time. The thing with newave and also your commission work.
cmon have cleaned up their shop a lot since the newave days. For a time they used to delete complaints about the new shop on the cmon forum but I believe they don't do this any more either (though it's been a while since I've seen one).
I've never used them but I'll be buying the confrontation stuff.
Jazz is for Losers wrote:cmon have cleaned up their shop a lot since the newave days. For a time they used to delete complaints about the new shop on the cmon forum but I believe they don't do this any more either (though it's been a while since I've seen one).
.
...because it's been deleted?
I kid!
I've ordered stuff from CMON without realizing who they were. Got my stuff quickly!
Sorry about the thread derailing a bit on the old Newwave subject.
I have not ordered from CMON due to the very direct link between CMON's co-founder David Doust and Newwave (which David Doust also owned), but in entire fairness, if there have been complaints about CMON service I have not seen any.
That said, I would rather set money on fire than take a chance with a company associated with the Doust name, regardless of the lack of complaints about CMON.
The list of complaints ran for quite sometime. All the way from 2001 to a crescendo in 2003-4 and going much later. I wish it were just 3 vociferous and anonymous internet guys making complaints, but there are pages of complaints about them on google. Let me repeat that: pages of complaints. And when you consider that much of those threads are lost due to website closures (even dakka's old threads cannot be adequately accessed form that time) it becomes clear that this isnt isolated nerd rage.
Not that I begrudge anyone doing business with them because they very well may have changed with someone else having a say in how orders are handled to make sure accusations of fraud are no longer leveled against them. If they are now doing good business then I wish them success as any good and fair business should enjoy. Too bad I cannot get what is owed to me.
But there is only so much good will that can be spread around. It may be wise to forgive, but only a fool forgets.
The connectors are blocky so that you do not misfit a piece. I've got the Rackham Flesh Golem with identical connectors and they're cast PERFECTLY. It's an impossibility to attach a piece at a wrong angle or place. It also makes pinning unnecessary.
As for the model... God, I want it sooo baaad! And I don't even like Mid-Nor!
None yet. In an interview Legacy said the price would be "comparable" to other competitor's offerings. Vague, I know. This was about $300 Canadian (Which is currently on par with the US dollar) when it was released. I almost bought it when it arrive at my LGS. My damn kids insisted on eating that month though. Ungrateful whelps...
Edit: Changed the price from $450, $300 seems more likely. Given that I also claim to remember riding to school on a mastadon, I probably misremembered.
Thanks for the Info... you know as much as I would like to make another faction, the price tag on these things are going to be crucial for me personally... I would love to see the miniatures at similar prices tags of the past R full retail prices or probably a bit more, but the Ltd edit title really scares me.
I also get the feeling they are going to concentrate on the big imposing figs first... speculating here...
My wish list of rereleases is kind of errr HUGE muahaha but the first thing I would like to see available is:
Zombies box set!... Mid nor Cyclop and regiments... Those are sweet box sets...
I very much doubt it'll cost 450$; it appears to be smaller than the Tarascus and that cost what, 200-250$? Also I'm pretty sure the Hydra was never released, this will be the first time.
-DE- wrote:I very much doubt it'll cost 450$; it appears to be smaller than the Tarascus and that cost what, 200-250$? Also I'm pretty sure the Hydra was never released, this will be the first time.
I think Mastiff is referring to the Dragon with that $ value.
NAVARRO wrote:Thanks for the Info... you know as much as I would like to make another faction, the price tag on these things are going to be crucial for me personally... I would love to see the miniatures at similar prices tags of the past R full retail prices or probably a bit more, but the Ltd edit title really scares me.
I also get the feeling they are going to concentrate on the big imposing figs first... speculating here...
I think you're right; they'll do big things first to test out the market. It sounds like they need time and money to get production-worthy moulds, so it makes more sense to start with big-ticket items that haven't been released in the past, or can't be found.
-DE- wrote:I very much doubt it'll cost 450$; it appears to be smaller than the Tarascus and that cost what, 200-250$? Also I'm pretty sure the Hydra was never released, this will be the first time.
You could be right, my memory is pretty bad sometimes. I just did some searching for the Titan Dragon and found several mentions that the original price was just under $300. Even with the exchange I'm way off. I'll edit the original so I don't panic people.
And no, the Hydra was never released. Some preview pics showed up a few years ago, but that was when Rackham was already imploding
Just received the CMON newsletter and the prices are 79.99 for the golem and 119.99 for the hydra not sure how big those are but the prices are a bit steep
Prices revealed on the CMON newsletter I just received:
Hydra $119.99
Flesh Golem $79.99
...personally, these price points are WAY too high and I honestly don't think many will pay these prices, which does not look good for getting more releases. We will see though...
They are big models, it's not an _absurd_ price, but it's not going to have many people picking them up "just because".
It's an odd initial release, I'm assuming there was some other reasons at play, maybe they had partial existing molds for these guys and didn't have to re-master everything?
plastictrees wrote:They are big models, it's not an _absurd_ price, but it's not going to have many people picking them up "just because".
It's an odd initial release, I'm assuming there was some other reasons at play, maybe they had partial existing molds for these guys and didn't have to re-master everything?
These are not large enough to justify those prices.
Those are the median prices that collectors have been paying for these.
I have the Flesh Golem and its no larger than a MC from GW and is smaller than all the SoM Monsters just released.
The only few items I would purchase from a re-release would be the Titan Dragon of Arklash (much larger than the Cynwall Dragon) and a Golborak.
I already have 2 Tarascus and paid no more than $170 AUD for either.
It is a bit of an odd choice to restart a line and to drum up interest.
I suppose they really are going to be going after the limited market of collectors and painters only, so this whole project might not be as exciting as I was hoping...
Alpharius wrote:It is a bit of an odd choice to restart a line and to drum up interest.
I suppose they really are going to be going after the limited market of collectors and painters only, so this whole project might not be as exciting as I was hoping...
This is the approach Rackham should have taken before things went downhill...
Instead, they focussed on the game system and complex (read: poorly translated) rules.
Not only this, the "revival" with PP Plastics was the exact opposite to what was required. Rackham's appeal has always been the sculpts, not the rules. The pre-painted plastics were an insult to their existing fans and the final nail in the coffin.
Alpharius wrote:It is a bit of an odd choice to restart a line and to drum up interest.
I suppose they really are going to be going after the limited market of collectors and painters only, so this whole project might not be as exciting as I was hoping...
This is the approach Rackham should have taken before things went downhill...
Instead, they focussed on the game system and complex (read: poorly translated) rules.
Not only this, the "revival" with PP Plastics was the exact opposite to what was required. Rackham's appeal has always been the sculpts, not the rules. The pre-painted plastics were an insult to their existing fans and the final nail in the coffin for me.
Sorry to edit, but I get a really bad taste in mouth when other people try to put words there. I know more folks who started playing Rackham games AFTER they went to PPP than ever played with the metals. So please don't go assuming your experience was the ONLY experience.
Well its a thing dead and buried I guess,( I mean the past world of frustration seeing the decline)... Hopefully CMON store can bring back some really hard to find oldies.
Alpharius wrote:It is a bit of an odd choice to restart a line and to drum up interest.
I suppose they really are going to be going after the limited market of collectors and painters only, so this whole project might not be as exciting as I was hoping...
This is the approach Rackham should have taken before things went downhill...
Instead, they focussed on the game system and complex (read: poorly translated) rules.
Not only this, the "revival" with PP Plastics was the exact opposite to what was required. Rackham's appeal has always been the sculpts, not the rules. The pre-painted plastics were an insult to their existing fans and the final nail in the coffin for me.
Sorry to edit, but I get a really bad taste in mouth when other people try to put words there. I know more folks who started playing Rackham games AFTER they went to PPP than ever played with the metals. So please don't go assuming your experience was the ONLY experience.
Some of us actually enjoyed C:AoR.
However, you were the minority as you clearly were not enough to keep the company afloat while the majority were as I described.
Alpharius wrote:It is a bit of an odd choice to restart a line and to drum up interest.
I suppose they really are going to be going after the limited market of collectors and painters only, so this whole project might not be as exciting as I was hoping...
This is the approach Rackham should have taken before things went downhill...
Instead, they focussed on the game system and complex (read: poorly translated) rules.
Not only this, the "revival" with PP Plastics was the exact opposite to what was required. Rackham's appeal has always been the sculpts, not the rules. The pre-painted plastics were an insult to their existing fans and the final nail in the coffin for me.
Sorry to edit, but I get a really bad taste in mouth when other people try to put words there. I know more folks who started playing Rackham games AFTER they went to PPP than ever played with the metals. So please don't go assuming your experience was the ONLY experience.
Some of us actually enjoyed C:AoR.
However, you were the minority as you clearly were not enough to keep the company afloat while the majority were as I described.
Sales numbers for AT-43 prove you wrong. It sold better than even metal Confrontation, especially in the states.
And once again, anyone looking for metal Confrontation, PM me. One of the stores here in the Springs still has a third of a 4 foot tall by 12 foot long wall filled with 6-7 blister deep racks of the stuff and even many of the boxes. No one buys it except me, even after the plastic C:AoR and AT-43 stuff sold out.
Sales was not what Rackham killed in the end, it was a fraudulant mother company that bought Rackham and the money package that came with it to postpone its own bancruptcy for another year.
Rackham made a lot of mistakes but non would have really killed the company. AT was a success and the translation to plastic was to fast for Confrontation. And would Rackham not have switched to plastic at least with AT it would have been dead years befpre since metal sales dropped considerably due to the limited lifetime all skirmish systems have built in.
The AT-rules were some of the best in the industry btw.
Sales was not what Rackham killed in the end, it was a fraudulant mother company that bought Rackham and the money package that came with it to postpone its own bancruptcy for another year.
Rackham made a lot of mistakes but non would have really killed the company. AT was a success and the translation to plastic was to fast for Confrontation. And would Rackham not have switched to plastic at least with AT it would have been dead years befpre since metal sales dropped considerably due to the limited lifetime all skirmish systems have built in.
The AT-rules were some of the best in the industry btw.
Sales was not what Rackham killed in the end, it was a fraudulant mother company that bought Rackham and the money package that came with it to postpone its own bancruptcy for another year.
Rackham made a lot of mistakes but non would have really killed the company. AT was a success and the translation to plastic was to fast for Confrontation. And would Rackham not have switched to plastic at least with AT it would have been dead years befpre since metal sales dropped considerably due to the limited lifetime all skirmish systems have built in.
The AT-rules were some of the best in the industry btw.
You refer to eRackham. I referred to the original company that went bust, then was bought out.
eRackham then decided PPP was the way to go and has now discovered what a poor investment that was.
I will admit that AT-43 was a good system, but it was too little, too late.
At-43 failed mainly because Rackham never got past the boardgame mentality. players were expected to play on 3'x2' boards with 2-30 miniatures a side rather than on a 6'x4' with over a hundred.
Small mindedness equalled small sales.
Buying AT-43 wasn't really viable until the firesales due to bad pricing decision either and distribution was piss poor.
Also while the core mechanic was solid many of the rules sucked and took away tactical play. Most notably the blast template rules which was overly accurate, overly deadly and ignored terrain. As infantry could not effectively use terrain other than a complete LOS block tactical deployment and maneuver was null and void and AT-43 all too easily turned into a brainless dicefest.
I would really like to see the game return, but it would need a management and rules fix to go with it.
AT-43 never had nearly the following it could/should have had simply becuase they fumbled the new releases so badly for the entire first year. 3+ month delays for new releases, main starter set being unavailable for months at a time, no rulebooks or armybooks at release and then they were staggered, only 2 factions. There was a lot of interest in the game at my shop but any and all of it had bled out by the time rackham got their supplies in order, and I know the same thing happened at many other shops too.
It´s interesting how people that were not directly involved do know more than those who were involved.
@AF This includes also the pre RE-Rackham. And you are way off with your assumptions.
@Orlanth
The US-market mainly suffered with the later releases because one rules-designer decided to listen too much to US-power-gamers. The french and german versions never had the problems the english version had to that extent. Core rules were solid, only some newer units wer a little bit off, but what really caused problems were the "official" rules that got published via the R-forum. Actually it was just one rules-designer who acted in contradiction to the intentions of the rest of the rules-designers. Equally, french version and German version easilly supported big battles, only the us-version was refitted to power-gamers wishes.
Also there was a distributor that owed Rackham a 5-6 digit sum which caused problems for Rackham and turned slight problems in major product hick-ups.
Also there was a distributor that owed Rackham a 5-6 digit sum which caused problems for Rackham and turned slight problems in major product hick-ups.
hmmm.
There was always a distributor to blame... or customs.... or china.... or bad molds. Rackham went through distributors like I change my underpants (about once every year). AFAIK all of those distributors are still in business (successfully). Some have grown dramatically. I think Rackham is at the center of all their failed relationships. They never had the people in place to run the global organization Rackham had become from a logistics standpoint.
And if 1 guy was in charge of changing rule for US Powergames, that is another lack of oversight by R. I don't blame the rules guy or the players, the death of that company rests SOLEY with their management. Announcing a move to PPP with your fantasy game 8 months in advance of its release effectively pulled sales out of their product. The eventual loss of cash flow that was funding the AT43 expansion and evaporation of the capital from going public ruined them.
The company had every intent of turning its major games into entities which could easily be sold in Target/Walmart/ToyRUs. They lost sight of 'quality' and went for mass appeal even beyond GWs greatest desire with their core products. Here is a cut out of a powerpoint given to stakeholders. The desire was to move R from its position in the upper Right quadrant to the lower "red band" and create an R product which spanned every income (Y axis) and complexity threshold (x axis). I look at this and go really? You wanted to be all things to all people. This broad focus softened the product up all they way around. Confused/upset long term customers (in the upper right). Never got production or distribution to penetrate the lower red quadrant.
Here we go again... I don't get it, I mean have we not debated RACKHAM major FAIL to death for the past 3 years or so? This is not Rackham anymore and it comes a time were the reasons to why Rackham and its management Failed SO HARD are no longer interesting or even in this case part of the debate because they are dead and buried! IMO.
THis is Not Rackham, its CMON releasing some Confrontation miniatures and I for one would prefer not to go back in those mindless past argumentations... they failed period! Now lets concentrate on CMON releases because thats what interesting today and on topic... and be happy the minis survived the bad management.
I understand people with a baggage about R, only who didn't lived that fiasco dont have a baggage of some sorts, so I suggest dumping the bag and move elsewhere...There is still Conf minis coming out and R should remain sleeping on its grave.
NAVARRO wrote:I understand people with a baggage about R, only who didn't lived that fiasco dont have a baggage of some sorts, so I suggest dumping the bag and move elsewhere...There is still Conf minis coming out and R should remain sleeping on its grave.
Ok, enough Off topic. But Im confused by NAVARRO claiming those of us who didnt live it? Most of those with issues with the R Management team were in the hobby and collecting the Confro 3 minis when it all went down.
However, yes, we now have the promises of goodies and teasers to oggle...
NAVARRO wrote:I understand people with a baggage about R, only who didn't lived that fiasco dont have a baggage of some sorts, so I suggest dumping the bag and move elsewhere...There is still Conf minis coming out and R should remain sleeping on its grave.
Ok, enough Off topic. But Im confused by NAVARRO claiming those of us who didnt live it? Most of those with issues with the R Management team were in the hobby and collecting the Confro 3 minis when it all went down.
However, yes, we now have the promises of goodies and teasers to oggle...
To clarify, people who lived the R Thing are the ones directly or indirectly involved, it goes from the simple client to the CEO but all of them have some baggage and feelings towards R... Clearer?
@jgemrich
The US is not the hub of the world, as much as some want to believe it!
It was an German distributor and all other trouble showed up after they caused the problem. Germany was quite a big market BEFORE this distributor took over.
In the same year Rackham ceased distribution with them the same distributor lost the licenses for Magic AND Star Wars for the same reasons. If three big licenses get pulled, then ther may be a reason why!
And this German distributor has changed its name for the third time these days and is only a shadow of its former self.
One problem with french companies is that only a few people there speak really god English so this guy was trusted too much, I agree. And they made poor decisions too. But metal sales were already dropping for 1-2 years and going plastic with AT-43 saved a lot. But they should have stayed wih metal with Confrontation for the time it would have taken to establish AT-43 as a cash cow product.
@AF Involved from the sidelines and I do not have to hide it, since I did my best to keep the product alive in my area, even though the German distributor did everything tp sabotage it.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The US is not the hub of the world, as much as some want to believe it!
Actually, if kind of is!
I hope that this new venture is successful - I love the old R miniature line and I would love to see this gain enough steam so that some version of the game itself eventually returns too.
It should've come as no surprise to me that those container and wall sets always sold out first. And yes, someone should pick up the molds for those containers and start selling them.
I'm looking forward for the price tag of that dragon. It was the best looking solo drake on the market for it's time (still is IMO) and I will be getting one of those if the price is fair.
News at gencon check the youtube vid and you will see lots of what's coming for confrontation... recasts of some old HARD to find stuff there! awesome.
NAVARRO wrote:Those containers were so good for infinity, one of the at43 highlights for me and hard to find these days.
Esp. the medical container with personnel!
I got one last year before Rackham went tits up, the shop keep priced it at €40, the greedy prick. But I needed it.
Damnnnn, 40euros is a rip off, greedy prick indeed, dont you just hate when people take advantage of your needs? It happened to me when I got some aberrations from the Hybrid game.
I've had people offer me serious bank for my collection of Containers(16-18 of them including the Medtec). Would be very tempting if I didn't still play AT-43 regularly.
They will make some serious cash off the dragon Titan, Molochs, and Cyclops. Gargoyles of Acheron and banshees though? Ludik bazaar had those in stock when 90% of the remaining confrontation metals where sold out. Scratching my head with this companies release choices.
Hydra looks better in that video than in any pictures I have seen previously.
They will make some serious cash off the dragon Titan, Molochs, and Cyclops. Gargoyles of Acheron and banshees though? Ludik bazaar had those in stock when 90% of the remaining confrontation metals where sold out. Scratching my head with this companies release choices.
I was surprised at those pics as well. The Gargoyles are pretty nice models, but I'm pretty sure the store a few blocks from me still has a couple of them and at least one Banshee.
Obviously everyone's idea of what they should be putting out is going to be different but I would buy the snot out of some Black Paladins, Knights of the Lion and Horned Raiders (no, Mr. Chinese recaster, I will not fall for your seductive e-bay dance).
I think the Acheron stuff has been timed moreso to coincide with the recent WFB releases. A case of now or never? To me its a sign that they are intending to take the punt and release quite a comprehensive range, not just the big ticket items.
Was a little disappointed that they hinted their "acquisitions" included never before seen items and none were on display. One would think the launch at Gencon would have been just the place. At least there was a Warlike Moloch in there though, that will be a definate for the collection.
My wishlist of minis that I know have sculpts would be Dirz cavalry, the Wyrm, Salias 2nd and Athan Zakhil
Edit
CMON have posted a new pic of that cabinet that has, so I've read, an un-released Akkyshan sitting right up front. There are more minis in another cabinet as well with quite a bit more product. Also (same source) the release stocks of the Titan Dragon may possibly contain re-packaged originals that were never Ludik'd.
I hadn't considered the WHFB timing parallel. That kind of makes sense. If they are really smart with pricing they stand to make a really nice profit, I think.
Dai-bakemonos just in time for WHFB ogres release. Come on, you know you want to.
everyone i know really liked Confrontation. Their decision to change their system and field prepainted plastic minis will go down in gaming history as one of the biggest faux pas of any company ever. I will wait to see if they pick up streangth or fail, before i invest any cash.
Next up for Confrontation re-releases, the Acherons live again!
This pack contains 5 miniatures:Ejhin de Vanth, Azael the Unfaithful, The Gorgon, Gargoyle of Acheron 1 and Gargoyle of Acheron 2. Cast in high quality resin with every individual piece lovingly placed in their own vacuum form cavities.
Hmm, I'm a little worried as to how well this will sell and lead to more releases.
Gargoyles and the Gorgon were some of the models I most frequently found multiples of at stores when I was trawling for metal Confrontation towards the end.
They are all nice to excellent models though, although that's not hard to pull off unless they start digging up the early Dwarf and Goblin stuff.
Scottywan82 wrote:Yeah, I have to agree, the only figure worth a darn there is de Vanth. Everything else in that pack is pretty lame.
Same.
And as much as the metals are worshiped, the plastic Gargoyles from the Ram box not only look fine as is, the sculpts are better than the metals IMO.
I completely agree. The new Skeletons were nice too.
Really, more than a retread of old figures...
Wait, let me rephrase: Instead of PRIMARILY focusing on old figures, I think they'd do better to bring out new sculpts by the same sculptors to flesh out or update the line. Some of the very first Confrontation models are pretty lame (Looking at YOU, Azael!) and could really benefit from an updated look.
Id' fill the space with re-releases, but I agree with the majority here that 5 figures for $16 a pop is no dice unless all five are awesome. These five as a bundle don't make the cut.
Original Rackham Acheron are SO easy to find on Ebay and various e-tailers that this price point is simply laughable.
Having spent a lot of time ebaying Confrontation minis lately, I would tend to dispute this. They are one of the more under-represented armies on there.
Original Rackham Acheron are SO easy to find on Ebay and various e-tailers that this price point is simply laughable.
Having spent a lot of time ebaying Confrontation minis lately, I would tend to dispute this. They are one of the more under-represented armies on there.
The usual suspects for Acheron on e-bay are Morbid Puppets, Skeleton Warriors, _every model in that set except for de Vanth_, and the occasional very expensive Cerberus.
I am tempted to buy the Archeron set, just to show my support, but the price is so steep.
The Rackham range is so characterful, it'd be almost tragic to see them go away.
Hopefully they make tons of sales and start reviving the range, particularily the orcs (so much better than the GW ones).
What were the initial number of editions for the flesh golem and hydra? They only have a handful remaining which means good sales, unless they only casted dozens.
Muhahapu wrote:I am tempted to buy the Archeron set, just to show my support, but the price is so steep.
The Rackham range is so characterful, it'd be almost tragic to see them go away.
Hopefully they make tons of sales and start reviving the range, particularily the orcs (so much better than the GW ones).
What were the initial number of editions for the flesh golem and hydra? They only have a handful remaining which means good sales, unless they only casted dozens.
I think it was originally 200 a piece but Legacy were intending to do more limited runs and top up the Cmon levels if they sold really well. Surprised also at the choice in terms of minis and marketing not sure it was the right decision. Afaik the Mid-Nor Cyclops was supposed to be part of Wave 2 also but that is a no show atm. Maybe Belial would have been a better choice if they were intending a themed release.
There was Gencon related talk that some of the masters for various CoRag plastics might be re-tooled/updated and cast in resin but that could be a long way off. Some of the later designs were actually quite good and there were many more that never saw release (Dirz especially). Imo as a starting point for the newer range the plastics were a lot better than the original metals and it was obvious the quality was improving. Bought both de Vanth and de Brisis recently (cheap) and have had much fun removing the paint.
Word is that Legacy have committed to six waves initially following which they will assess the feasibility of continuing the project. There will only be a handful (3?) of unseen designs with the rest being re-releases from whatever faction. There will be no dedicated website for at least 5-6 months so how they will assess the markets opinion is anyones guess.
My interest in this project is starting to cool off. I need to see some of the big ticket items. The name confrontation has appeal but simply, it's not enough. If Legacy plans to assess viability based on ill-informed releases like this last acheron set, they will get what's coming to them.
If they were to generate some interest with say a rerelease of the molochs, or the fan favorite dirz line (nemesis clone, centurius clones). I am still interested but I certainly won't be holding my breath if the current marketing strategy contines.
AesSedai wrote:My interest in this project is starting to cool off.
I feel your pain... My interest just died with the fact they are not for sale individually... and at those prices its just ridiculous, I mean if I have some of those minis in my collection ( which is a big possibility for any Rackham fan) I'm stuck to spend a large dollar bill on same minis.
I think that this time greed will kill confrontation again.
CMON folks if your listening, quit this nonsense please!
Let me first say that we are all ears when it comes to Confrontation products. Afterall, it is the customers that determine the purchases. In fact, the reason why Wave 2 is delayed is because we decided to make some last minute square bases to accomodate the 3.5 players based on suggestions. So don’t think that we are all decided on the path of how we are releasing these waves.
This is what I can confirm:
Hydra is now sold out, not surprising. There are no immediate plans to make anymore.
We are down to the last 31 Flesh Golems, so it is just a matter of time when they are sold out as well.
There is a second release for Wave 2 which is the Cyclop of Mid-nor. We are waiting for the 50mm square bases to be finished and we will put them up for sale.
Wave 3 will come in October consisting of 2 packs: Pack 1 – All 6 original Fiannas with Drac Mac Syro, the barbarian that you could only get with the Ragnarok box set. Pack 2 – Molochs.
Wave 4 will be the Titan Dragon that everyone love so much.
This pattern of release will continue. Feel free to post here or write us with suggestions and feedback, and we’ll make sure Legacy Miniatures knows what the community thinks.
They had better make ~500 of the Fianna boxes; those things are damned near impossible to find.
The Molochs would also be cool if they are not too expensive.
Well it seems that their judgment is sound. Perhaps this Acheron mixed release was a feeler; testing to see if they could sell cruddy models by burying them in with less cruddy models.
The cyclops is pretty cool, and if I recall that is a 50mm base he is sitting on, so he should be ~3 inches tall, and really solid. The price is still a bit high I think. I would say 60$ would be a price to get a lot of people excited.
fire4effekt wrote:The cynwall dragon was around 3-4 inches high with a wingspan of about 4-5 inches. the picture Jin linked.
I'm getting confused. What's the difference between the dragon you
describe and this one?
He's talking about the "basic" Cynwall dragon. The one they appear to be releasing is the Titan. I'm actually not sure if they were completely different sculpts or just different sizes.
plastictrees wrote:He's talking about the "basic" Cynwall dragon. The one they appear to be releasing is the Titan. I'm actually not sure if they were completely different sculpts or just different sizes.
They are two different sculpts, Titan is huge (link here to web page describing one) and the smaller would fit 50mm base if I remember correctly.
Rackham need to re-release these beauties so i don't have to pay counterfeiters $20 EACH for them
They make extremely elite Vampire Counts Grave Guards
NAVARRO wrote: 79.9 plus shipping? Thats just ridiculous!
Methinks putting in OOP Limited Release tends to jack up prices 40-60% more
How is this OOP ( out of production) since they just got the license and at least the first batch is 200 recasts?
Did they created the artwork? did they hired the sculptor? they just recasted the thing.
So yeah you can hate the unoficcial recasters and can detest some fleabay leeches that try to jack the prices but what is CMON doing so different really? Oh they have the license.
For things like unreleased models I can try to understand the price tag but for this mini that if your patient you can find the original in metal?
I'm very very disappointed to see confrontation handled yet again sooo badly.
Never thought I'd live to see the day... Navarro is SO damn right about this. Their overhead is so low there should be a sign posted so we don't brain ourselves.
LunaHound wrote:Rackham need to re-release these beauties so i don't have to pay counterfeiters $20 EACH for them
They make extremely elite Vampire Counts Grave Guards
They'll be more expensive than that when CMON gets around to them. If it were me I'd rather pay the Chinese recasters for metal figs.
Scottywan82 wrote:Never thought I'd live to see the day... Navarro is SO damn right about this. Their overhead is so low there should be a sign posted so we don't brain ourselves.
$80 for a recast is atrocious.
Hey! We had some crazy debates about Rackham back in the day, but I think that we actually agreed on some points before
Its very sad to see a potential confrontation rebirth killed by pure blind greed, I hope no one picks this up, but something tells me that many will.
LunaHound wrote:Rackham need to re-release these beauties so i don't have to pay counterfeiters $20 EACH for them
They make extremely elite Vampire Counts Grave Guards
They'll be more expensive than that when CMON gets around to them. If it were me I'd rather pay the Chinese recasters for metal figs.
The only "infantry" models they've released so far break down to ~$16 each, so ok, I guess you should definitely go buy dodgy recasts rather than buy the models you want from the people that own the rights to the masters.
Hey! We had some crazy debates about Rackham back in the day, but I think that we actually agreed on some points before
lol, I keed, I keed! True though, we both wish that the guys who SCULPTED for Rackham would just make more miniatures in that same design vein.
NAVARRO wrote:
Its very sad to see a potential confrontation rebirth killed by pure blind greed, I hope no one picks this up, but something tells me that many will.
Also very true. I just wish CMON would get with it and offer these for a reasonable price! I cannot believe they'd go through with all this if it was costing them so much they needed to charge prices like these.
Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish CMON would get with it and offer these for a reasonable price! I cannot believe they'd go through with all this if it was costing them so much they needed to charge prices like these.
NAVARRO wrote: 79.9 plus shipping? Thats just ridiculous!
Methinks putting in OOP Limited Release tends to jack up prices 40-60% more
How is this OOP ( out of production) since they just got the license and at least the first batch is 200 recasts?
Did they created the artwork? did they hired the sculptor? they just recasted the thing.
So yeah you can hate the unoficcial recasters and can detest some fleabay leeches that try to jack the prices but what is CMON doing so different really? Oh they have the license.
For things like unreleased models I can try to understand the price tag but for this mini that if your patient you can find the original in metal?
I'm very very disappointed to see confrontation handled yet again sooo badly.
plastictrees wrote:The only "infantry" models they've released so far break down to ~$16 each, so ok, I guess you should definitely go buy dodgy recasts rather than buy the models you want from the people that own the rights to the masters.
You underestimate the competence of chinese counterfeiters >.>
Like seriously, if CMON is going to charge that high. they are just encouraging more counterfeiters to sell on ebay.
The only "infantry" models they've released so far break down to ~$16 each, so ok, I guess you should definitely go buy dodgy recasts rather than buy the models you want from the people that own the rights to the masters.
Well, for the sake of accuracy, the price he quoted was incorrect and/or an exaggeration.
They are a a $49.99 US Buy-it-now item on ebay. So more like $16.55 each. The shipping is listed (for me) at $7.00, which is cheaper than what CMON charged me for my last order from them. They are also metal, which some hobbyists prefer to resin. And, lastly, from what I've read the Chinese copies aren't really that "dodgy". I've heard several people report that they are indistinguishable from the real thing, other than them being pre-filed/cleaned, sometimes more roughly than an experienced hobbyist would achieve, and having thinner tabs than the old Rackham minis.
We also haven't seen enough of Legacy's pricing to know whether or not the price-per-mini will rise on premium, highly collectible infantry models, and there is also the chance that the Black Paladins will be packaged with other less desirable models.
So, with all that in mind, it doesn't seem like CMON/Legacy have done enough to make their option a clearly superior choice to ebay recasts.
Aside from questions of quality, given that prices are at least comparable, I would rather buy from the people that actually own the rights to the models. At the very least you're sustaining the slight hope that support for the actual game might return at some point.
I'm not sure how the company that bought the masters etc. to make Rackham models is an evil greed monster that should be boycotted, but the recaster that invested 5$ in rubber, lego and lead is a totally valid avenue.
plastictrees wrote:Aside from questions of quality, given that prices are at least comparable, I would rather buy from the people that actually own the rights to the models. At the very least you're sustaining the slight hope that support for the actual game might return at some point.
I'm not sure how the company that bought the masters etc. to make Rackham models is an evil greed monster that should be boycotted, but the recaster that invested 5$ in rubber, lego and lead is a totally valid avenue.
Im not arguing with morality atm. Im making 2 statements.
a) Chinese counterfeiters are alot better than you expected.
b) Before Legacy produce confrontation minis, most of ebay confrontation has been supplied by counterfeiters.
Which means for w/e moral issues involved, they are already ok with buying counterfeits.
If the price isn't attractive, its not going to convince the customers to buy "legit" products.
I've heard very mixed reviews of recasts. If you've had good experiences or heard about good experiences then that's great, but it doesn't suddenly make me believe that you're not taking more of a risk than buying from an actual manufacturer.
Stating that everyone bought models from re-casters before there was another avenue to buy those models from isn't very helpful. Rolex doesn't react to counterfeiters by trying to undercut them.
I'm sure you're not "arguing with morality", and while I do take that into account to an extent, the marginal price difference, the fact that you get the cards, and the fact that you're supporting a company that might take the brand somewhere (unlikely I know) is enough to make what Legacy is offering more attractive to me personally.
Obviously I'd rather they had lower prices, but they don't.
The significance of Rolex is your status and prestige. Wearing a counterfeit one you wont convince anyone its real anyways.
Miniatures are alot easier. Do they share same details? are they same materials? If yes, paint them up and thats it. No one can tell the difference and the intention of owning them isn't the same as owning a Rolex.
Altruizine wrote:
Well, for the sake of accuracy, the price he quoted was incorrect and/or an exaggeration.
They are a a $49.99 US Buy-it-now item on ebay. So more like $16.55 each. The shipping is listed (for me) at $7.00, which is cheaper than what CMON charged me for my last order from them. They are also metal, which some hobbyists prefer to resin. And, lastly, from what I've read the Chinese copies aren't really that "dodgy". I've heard several people report that they are indistinguishable from the real thing, other than them being pre-filed/cleaned, sometimes more roughly than an experienced hobbyist would achieve, and having thinner tabs than the old Rackham minis.
We also haven't seen enough of Legacy's pricing to know whether or not the price-per-mini will rise on premium, highly collectible infantry models, and there is also the chance that the Black Paladins will be packaged with other less desirable models.
So, with all that in mind, it doesn't seem like CMON/Legacy have done enough to make their option a clearly superior choice to ebay recasts.
I have to speak up on this point. I have orders a pair of figures (2nd gen Red Lioness and Oni style ogres) from different Chinese recasters and have been disappointed. They are not close to the quality of the original casts and on top of that were made from a poor quality lead. It was grainy and brittle. Did not take well to filing. Hardly worth the cost.
Also, to those saying there were no costs associated with getting these figs, I higly doubt they magically appeared on the door step of CMON. I know Reaper was also openly trying to get their hands on the masters and saw it mentioned both Fantasy Flight and Dust Games were interested too. So there was multiple companies vying for these figs and without doubt increased the cost of obtaining the masters. To say the only costs that were associated with these figs was casting is wrong.
That being said, $80 US a fig... I am glad I was able to pick up the cyclops through Ludik Bazar a few years ago. Though it was close to $50+ US back then with S&H.
The $80 cost is probably tied more to measuring Ebay prices for the figs. $80 does not seem a far reach for what that fig goes for when it shows up. Whether there are 200 people will to pay that is another question.
I think if people offered $80 for metal cyclops on some other sites people would glady supply them. Hell if you want to buy one for $80 plus shipping I'll glady sell you one I have still un-assembled.
Their prices are way to high. For un-released new kits they can charge whatever they want really and people will either buy them or they wont. For older miniatures people still have available those prices are insane.
The only new mini I bought was Hydra, which for its price I still feel was overpriced but its a large model and was never previously made.
Im still able to pick up almost all the miniatures I want at worst case for old retail, but I would say 90% of the confrontation miniatures I have still been buying and trading for have been at much under even old retail. An I have bought alot in the last couple months trying to complete my collection.
In general most normal sized miniatures/blisters you can get for under $10 on ebay or via other websites if you watch. Even large figures often go for less than $15 ea.
Very few of the metals sell for near the prices CMON is trying to charge. It is a bad business decision and in general generating alot of ill will in the community if they are paying any attention.
His Master's Voice wrote:Heh, just found a sub 35$ Cyclops on Ebay with two bids and two days to go. Wonder if it'll go for anything close to what CMON asks for a resin one.
Anyone wants to take a guess when the first resin recasts of the Hydra will hit the Bay?
Trust me, it doesn't stay at that.
Expect the Mid-nor living tower to show up sooner or later and is a similar size model. Remember it retailing for $50 back in 2005. Adjust for inflation, it would be about $60 these days. Was able to get a couple three years ago for about $35 a pop through Ludik, but then they ran out. They would show up on Ebay occasionally, but last I saw went for $90+. People are willing to pay that level of money based on limited availability. There are only 200 of these new cyclopes out there right now, so technically this is a limited release.
Like I said before, CMON is betting there are 200 people willing to pay $80 for a fig. We just don't happen to be among those.
One fig set I expect to sell out fast even at the new pricing is the Fianna Barbarians. Those ebay for $20+ a fig on ebay right now. You can get lucky if one shows up with a crap paint job and might be able to get it for $15.
I don't use ebay as an indication of actual market value for anything. At any given time price is determined by "usually" a handful of punters with the outcome a result of how much one person is willing to pay. I see this all the time with AT43 Oni, Ophidian and other rarities. For certain items there's normally a list of usual suspects involved, in my case even a specific guy I bash heads with when bidding on Devourers (lost track of how many times we've sniped each other). Just because I would be prepared to fork out whatever $'s for say Slashers doesnt mean that next week an identical blister will sell for the same amount. It could sell quite easily for less purchased by someone who missed out previously. Even how much I would be willing to spend is determined moreso by other factors than a supposed "ebay market value". Postage (international) is a big one, currency exchange rates another but theres the bonus of often finding additional items offered by the same seller. You can add probably 3/4 of the postage rate to your max bid as that cost will be combined and if you win earlier auctions for less than anticipated that difference can also be added to the next. You end up spending close to what you expected but the value on each item is all over the place.
Back on topic I think we may all be in for a nasty shock when the price for the Molochs is listed.
His Master's Voice wrote:Heh, just found a sub 35$ Cyclops on Ebay with two bids and two days to go. Wonder if it'll go for anything close to what CMON asks for a resin one.
Anyone wants to take a guess when the first resin recasts of the Hydra will hit the Bay?
The cyclops went for $81 US. There was another one that sold for $90 US prior to them releasing it, so their price is relatively good. If you get one cheaper than what they are selling them for you doing pretty good.
I am glad I was able to pick up the cyclops through Ludik Bazar a few years ago. Though it was close to $50+ US back then with S&H.