I like the look of this product, I can understand patches etc.
However this patch.....
To Most people the Iron Cross is a symbol of evil, now to us who know better it's significance goes back to before the third Reich to the Imperial era. Furthermore the modern BUNDESWEHR uses a variant of this Cross. I definitely wouldn't want to walk around with a bag with this on, especially on Buses or Trains etc.
However these patches are extremely distasteful in my humble opinion....
DAS REICH (the French Town they murdered)
TOTENKOPF (Concentration Camps)
Historically accurate Miniatures is one thing, unintented displaying of an overt alliegance to something considered evil and offensive is quite another.
I am well versed in military History and am quite immune to the emotive symbols on display. The Public however is not, the Deaths Head Symbol in particular is not something you should display anywhere on public transport lest you be branded a Nazi, Anti-semetic, right-winger or Neo-Nazi. I would not advise nor encourage someone to have these patches for their own safety and the inevitable comments and judgements you would receive if you carried this in Public. This is more a safety issue than a Moral crusade, although walking around with the DEATH'S HEAD symbol is not good for your standing within society.
I don't want an edited History of WWII or to write the truth out because it raises difficult or emotive subject matter, but we need a moral compass and remember what the Brutality of SS and in particular the Death Camps and the various targetted groups that the NAZI's murdered. (Equally the Soviet Union and its Gulags yet the Hammer and Sickle seems acceptable and is used on lots of T-shirts? Not sure why it is more acceptable). I really like FoW and it's honest, truthful, objective portrayal of WWII.
Is this product just a little beyond the acceptable? Your thoughts?
it depends how well-versed people who see it are in the history. i do not recognise the second symbols and the first i don't think is that bad.
the best thing to do would be to write an extremely civil and polite letter to FoW and advise them of your concerns and that you do not want people who are ignorant of the real meanings of such symbols to be misunderstood by the general public.
I think the same thing when I see people wearing 1st SS LAH T-shirts...
Cant help but think its a little odd... I love WW2 but not sure what wearing a Waffen-SS t-shirt is meant to say. The only impression I imagine it would give to Joe Public is 'Im a Nazi - and Proud'.
But each to their own... Such displays aint really for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, though a related one, I once saw a white guy get a severe warning from a group of coloured gentlemen over his wearing of a Confederate flag as a bandana.
To him its connotations were inoccuous, to this group they saw it as overtly racist.
I would agree that the Confederate Flag is extremely disrespectful, it's not the Official Flag of the United States and ceased to be relevant the moment the Union Army defeated the confederate army.
The emancipation proclaimation and the Civil War itself began the long road to American Racial integration. Although I would suggest they are not fully there yet, they are definitely making progress. The election of an African American President has shown that they are moving forward.
Being Southern and proud we could get in arguments over the meanings (true, false, and hyped) on what the Confederate Flag means or does not mean
You would at first have to be well versed I think, in WWII history and iconography to understand what the Death's Head symbol actually was and represented. Given the current day death metal bands and other more gothic & death oriented imagery, the average public would probably see it and dismiss it just as casually as they would if they saw a Green Devil riding a red trident.
I do agree that wearing a shirt with SS patches on it, or proudly displaying the SS Symbol is a little distateful. They are certainly symbols that represent hate. (again, perhaps falsely labeled like the Confederate Flag) Unfortunately Groups in America and across the world have turned it into such.
I think they could have picked better insignia's and perhaps even stayed away from the whole SS iconography but, I doubt average joe is going to think they are looking at a Hot Topic Patch and not the Death's Head.
*Not that Im saying that some SS units had some deplorable history. However some did not and served their nation with dedication and distinction.
This country celebrates the Buffalo Soldier who, effectively helped exterminate/round-up/oppress and entire race of people.
But, then why isn't this offensive or this . I mean I know people who have lost their whole families in the Soviet death camps, and in the Vietnamese reprisals. My point is that no matter what patch they release, someone is going to take offense to it, no matter what it is, and lets not forget the that people do have a right to wear those symbols if they so desire. These patch are just pictures we give power to. i.e. show a swastika to a person who never heard of the nazis they won't understand what it means. At what point can someone be offensive.
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mwnciboo wrote:I would agree that the Confederate Flag is extremely disrespectful, it's not the Official Flag of the United States and ceased to be relevant the moment the Union Army defeated the confederate army.
The emancipation proclaimation and the Civil War itself began the long road to American Racial integration. Although I would suggest they are not fully there yet, they are definitely making progress. The election of an African American President has shown that they are moving forward.
I would have to disagree. By saying it is a "step in the right direction" is acknowledging that there is a difference in the first place. Does it really matter his race? The fact that it's a "good thing" that we elected an"African american" shows how that makes no sense. I mean it shouldn't matter that we elected a "African-American", man as much as man. I mean does that make all those who oppose him instantly racist, even men like Herman Cain?
Seems to me that a lot of people would hardly recognise a Das Reich Wolfsangel unless they happen to be particularly versed in history, or live in Idaho. Totenkopf has been (and is still) used in a vastly wider area than just "Death Camp Guards.", including contemporary military units ..and pirates. Motorhead fans springs to mind.
One does not have to be carrying actual "fascist" insignia to catch grief. I once got accused of being a Nazi for using a GW carry-case with their two-headed eagle logo on it (as a baby-changing bag, ironically.) Some people are just stupid.
mwnciboo wrote:I would agree that the Confederate Flag is extremely disrespectful, it's not the Official Flag of the United States and ceased to be relevant the moment the Union Army defeated the confederate army.
As an American who both lives in Pennsylvania and has an interest in the American Civil War, I don't see the Confederate Flag as disrespectful, as long as it's being worn for the right reasons.
There's a stereotype when people think of the American Civil War - that it was fought to end slavery. This is, in fact, wrong. Slavery may have been a factor in the War, but it certainly wasn't a deciding factor when some states seceded and formed the Confederacy. The Confederate flag stands for States Rights over Federal Power - a conflict that was still ongoing just before the ACW, and which the ACW ended.
So, wearing the Confederate flag isn't disrespectful - unless you're some hillbilly redneck who's wearing one in order to show those 'other races' whose boss. Then you're in the wrong.
Aldramelech wrote:I think you'll find its illegal in most of Europe, which should be a bit of a clue to Battlefront.
Which one? There are at least three symbols under discussion here.
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infinite_array wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:I would agree that the Confederate Flag is extremely disrespectful, it's not the Official Flag of the United States and ceased to be relevant the moment the Union Army defeated the confederate army.
As an American who both lives in Pennsylvania and has an interest in the American Civil War, I don't see the Confederate Flag as disrespectful, as long as it's being worn for the right reasons.
There's a stereotype when people think of the American Civil War - that it was fought to end slavery. This is, in fact, wrong. Slavery may have been a factor in the War, but it certainly wasn't a deciding factor when some states seceded and formed the Confederacy. The Confederate flag stands for States Rights over Federal Power - a conflict that was still ongoing just before the ACW, and which the ACW ended.
So, wearing the Confederate flag isn't disrespectful - unless you're some hillbilly redneck who's wearing one in order to show those 'other races' whose boss. Then you're in the wrong.
I have one on my bedroom wall acting as a tapestry, wholly and entirely because it is an aesthetically pleasing design. A symbol is what you make it.
Phototoxin wrote:I'm irish. This is the butchers apron to me it is a symbol of opresson:
So for *safety* we should get rid of all union jacks lest other irishmen be offended?
Share and share alike, its a symbol of oppression to a substantial number of nations. But its a symbol of different things to other nations.
Thinking on it, we should wack an embargo on the Stars and Stripes whilst we are at it, because that flag is a swift route to a lynching in a lot of places.
Well it's true enough that Britain has put down up risings and enforced its own view of law and order but compare it to the Gulags or Holocaust shows a lack of perspective. I don't remember the UK murdering 6 million plus Irish men in Gas Chambers? But britain it has never been a wholesale industrial scale murdering of ethnic groups, unlike Nazi Concentration Camps or Gulags. I do freely admit that Concentration Camps come from Baden Powell in South Africa. Plus Britain did make a fortune off the slave trade. However we move on, learn from our mistakes. There is no way you can argue the Union Flag is the same as the swastika or the Deaths Head. These are War crimes, (Don't cite Bloody sunday or other events in Ireland because they don't even compare with the holocaust). Hundreds of Thousands of Commonwealth, American and Soviets Died (28 Million Russians at last count, although they did kill alot more post war in the Gulags than the Nazi's ever did) fighting what was clearly an immoral and quite frankly evil regime.
You cannot as a Rational Human being, argue that the SS is just a symbol. I have been to Belsen, it sickened me to the core. SS was heavily into teutonic chivalric symbology coupled with their unspeakable inhuman acts, dipping subjects in ice water and nitrogen until they died to establish point of death, experiments on twins, the killing of Gypsies, Homosexuals, the disabled and anyone who questioned the regime. etc.
I really do not think that be associated with this in anyway is a good thing or can be condoned in anyway. BTW enjoying the debate, it hasn't descended into the ridiculous.....yet.
From Wikipedia:
The American Civil War (1861–1865) was a civil war in the United States of America. Eleven Southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America, also known as "the Confederacy". Led by Jefferson Davis, the Confederacy fought for its independence from the United States. The U.S. federal government was supported by twenty mostly-Northern free states in which slavery already had been abolished, and by five slave states that became known as the border states. These twenty-five states, referred to as the Union, had a much larger base of population and industry than the South. After four years of bloody, devastating warfare (mostly within the Southern states), the Confederacy surrendered and slavery was outlawed everywhere in the nation. The restoration of the Union, and the Reconstruction Era that followed, dealt with issues that remained unresolved for generations.
mwnciboo wrote:Well it's true enough that Britain has put down up risings and enforced its own view of law and order but compare it to the Gulags or Holocaust shows a lack of perspective. I don't remember the UK murdering 6 million plus Irish men in Gas Chambers? But britain it has never been a wholesale industrial scale murdering of ethnic groups, unlike Nazi Concentration Camps or Gulags. I do freely admit that Concentration Camps come from Baden Powell in South Africa. Plus Britain did make a fortune off the slave trade. However we move on, learn from our mistakes. There is no way you can argue the Union Flag is the same as the swastika or the Deaths Head. These are War crimes, (Don't cite Bloody sunday or other events in Ireland because they don't even compare with the holocaust). Hundreds of Thousands of Commonwealth, American and Soviets Died (28 Million Russians at last count, although they did kill alot more post war in the Gulags than the Nazi's ever did).
You cannot as a Rational Human being, argue that the SS is just a symbol. I have been to Belsen, it sickened me to the core. SS was heavily into teutonic chivalric symbology coupled with their unspeakable inhuman acts, dipping subjects in ice water and nitrogen until they died to establish point of death, experiments on twins etc.
I really do not think that be associated with this in anyway is a good thing or can be condoned in anyway.
But there is also a lack of perspective in saying that Das Reich's anti-partisan activities are the same as the systematic industrialized murder of millions of political and religious "undesirables". Overzealous, yes, criminal, yes, war crime, yes... but in a different league to many other crimes associated with certain symbols, flags or nations. Liquidating towns and villages is not uncommon in war (however disgusting or criminal), and it is not unique to the Nazis in history. Industrial Genocide however, pretty much IS unique to them. Also, Das Reich or Totenkopf are not "The SS" in its entirety, nor is the SS just Das Reich or Totenkopf. Conflating them all is a little too close to conflating all Germans into the same crime, regardless of the accuracy of the statement. History, when considered in broad strokes, usually turns out to be inaccurate or just plain wrong, and often very misleading.
I would imagine that BF believe that if someone lives in an area where a symbol is illegal or proscribed, that they will have the sense to not display it. Everywhere else, it is surely a personal choice as to whether you feel up to the potential arguments..probably the same arguments that you might have with anyone who realises you spend a great deal of your time researching Platanenmuster colour swatches and Waffenfarbe. I've had similar arguments over book-covers (including a Totenkopf and SS runes on a serious treatise about Death Camps). Its part of the price of expressing an interest in a certain period of history.
By the by, I'm not particularly versed in Irish history, but I suspect that playing down some of the more criminal aspects of British occupation in the past is likely to trigger not inconsiderable ire from Irish readers. Don't be surprised if anger ensues.
mwnciboo wrote:Well it's true enough that Britain has put down up risings and enforced its own view of law and order but compare it to the Gulags or Holocaust shows a lack of perspective. I don't remember the UK murdering 6 million plus Irish men in Gas Chambers? But britain it has never been a wholesale industrial scale murdering of ethnic groups, unlike Nazi Concentration Camps or Gulags. I do freely admit that Concentration Camps come from Baden Powell in South Africa. Plus Britain did make a fortune off the slave trade. However we move on, learn from our mistakes. There is no way you can argue the Union Flag is the same as the swastika or the Deaths Head. These are War crimes, (Don't cite Bloody sunday or other events in Ireland because they don't even compare with the holocaust). Hundreds of Thousands of Commonwealth, American and Soviets Died (28 Million Russians at last count, although they did kill alot more post war in the Gulags than the Nazi's ever did) fighting what was clearly an immoral and quite frankly evil regime.
You cannot as a Rational Human being, argue that the SS is just a symbol. I have been to Belsen, it sickened me to the core. SS was heavily into teutonic chivalric symbology coupled with their unspeakable inhuman acts, dipping subjects in ice water and nitrogen until they died to establish point of death, experiments on twins, the killing of Gypsies, Homosexuals, the disabled and anyone who questioned the regime. etc.
I really do not think that be associated with this in anyway is a good thing or can be condoned in anyway. BTW enjoying the debate, it hasn't descended into the ridiculous.....yet.
Here if an additional Symbol of a sometimes Murderous, Deceitful, and tyrannical Nation/Empire
As a Native American, I find the hypocrisy of this flag to much to bear sometimes! Underr the guise of Manifest Destiny! There was a policy to to drive the Native Americans from their lands at any and all costs. Even lands that had been given to Native American tribes by treaties/acts of said nation. These articles were ignored, violated, and renounced all so greedy settlers could have their land. When they resisted, troops were sent in to "bring them to justice" which meant kill or destroy in most circumstances. Indian Settlements were raised to the ground, women, children butchered by US Cavalry.
Now a once numerous people are a shell of their former glory, rounded up and left to die on reservations.
Of course, the point being is that certain acts do not make others more or less evil. Nothing justifies barbarism.
Mao Zedong and the People's Republic of China makes Stalin look like an Amateur! So lets throw that flag and iconography up here on this debate.
Are the badges necessary? No they are not. Just like I do not need to see the Swastika when I play Hearts of Iron. It no less dampens my enjoyment because its not there. However, they can and if someone wants to display it. More power to them. However, given the touchy subject matter, I would not. Not because Im afraid that I will upset someone who that might offend, but because I dont want to run the risk of upsetting someone. And I mean truly upsetting them. Im sure if I came across or bumped into someone who lived through such horrors. To have that thrown in their face so casually, they dont need nor deserve that.
However, does Battlefront have a right to sell them or offer them to people who could careless or view it differently. Sure. I guess its all in the spirit of what its intended.
(now Im rambling and will stop. Hope this all makes sense. It is an interesting debate, but it also Im sure is a touchy subject to some.)
The American Civil War (1861–1865) was a civil war in the United States of America. Eleven Southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America, also known as "the Confederacy". Led by Jefferson Davis, the Confederacy fought for its independence from the United States. The U.S. federal government was supported by twenty mostly-Northern free states in which slavery already had been abolished, and by five slave states that became known as the border states. These twenty-five states, referred to as the Union, had a much larger base of population and industry than the South. After four years of bloody, devastating warfare (mostly within the Southern states), the Confederacy surrendered and slavery was outlawed everywhere in the nation. The restoration of the Union, and the Reconstruction Era that followed, dealt with issues that remained unresolved for generations.
Is this wrong?
I have been given to understand (as a person not of the USA) that the Emancipation Proclamation was a somewhat cynical manouevre on the part of the North... "liberating" the slaves of another nation, and that reducing the conflict to a matter of "Slaves or no slaves" is a gross oversimplification of the situation. That is also the impression I got from reading Catton of an evening. The Wiki quote appears to work on the principle that if you introduce the word "slave" into the description of a nation, the war becomes about slavery.
Country A tells Country B that Country B's Slaves are now free and that Slavery in Country B is Illegal. Infact, If I remember the document, it did nothing for slaves in the Border States.
mwnciboo wrote:Well it's true enough that Britain has put down up risings and enforced its own view of law and order but compare it to the Gulags or Holocaust shows a lack of perspective. I don't remember the UK murdering 6 million plus Irish men in Gas Chambers? But britain it has never been a wholesale industrial scale murdering of ethnic groups, unlike Nazi Concentration Camps or Gulags. I do freely admit that Concentration Camps come from Baden Powell in South Africa. Plus Britain did make a fortune off the slave trade. However we move on, learn from our mistakes. There is no way you can argue the Union Flag is the same as the swastika or the Deaths Head. These are War crimes, (Don't cite Bloody sunday or other events in Ireland because they don't even compare with the holocaust). Hundreds of Thousands of Commonwealth, American and Soviets Died (28 Million Russians at last count, although they did kill alot more post war in the Gulags than the Nazi's ever did) fighting what was clearly an immoral and quite frankly evil regime.
You cannot as a Rational Human being, argue that the SS is just a symbol. I have been to Belsen, it sickened me to the core. SS was heavily into teutonic chivalric symbology coupled with their unspeakable inhuman acts, dipping subjects in ice water and nitrogen until they died to establish point of death, experiments on twins, the killing of Gypsies, Homosexuals, the disabled and anyone who questioned the regime. etc.
I really do not think that be associated with this in anyway is a good thing or can be condoned in anyway. BTW enjoying the debate, it hasn't descended into the ridiculous.....yet.
Here if an additional Symbol of a sometimes Murderous, Deceitful, and tyrannical Nation/Empire
As a Native American, I find the hypocrisy of this flag to much to bear sometimes! Underr the guise of Manifest Destiny! There was a policy to to drive the Native Americans from their lands at any and all costs. Even lands that had been given to Native American tribes by treaties/acts of said nation. These articles were ignored, violated, and renounced all so greedy settlers could have their land. When they resisted, troops were sent in to "bring them to justice" which meant kill or destroy in most circumstances. Indian Settlements were raised to the ground, women, children butchered by US Cavalry.
Now a once numerous people are a shell of their former glory, rounded up and left to die on reservations.
Of course, the point being is that certain acts do not make others more or less evil. Nothing justifies barbarism.
Mao Zedong and the People's Republic of China makes Stalin look like an Amateur! So lets throw that flag and iconography up here on this debate.
Are the badges necessary? No they are not. Just like I do not need to see the Swastika when I play Hearts of Iron. It no less dampens my enjoyment because its not there. However, they can and if someone wants to display it. More power to them. However, given the touchy subject matter, I would not. Not because Im afraid that I will upset someone who that might offend, but because I dont want to run the risk of upsetting someone. And I mean truly upsetting them. Im sure if I came across or bumped into someone who lived through such horrors. To have that thrown in their face so casually, they dont need nor deserve that.
However, does Battlefront have a right to sell them or offer them to people who could careless or view it differently. Sure. I guess its all in the spirit of what its intended.
(now Im rambling and will stop. Hope this all makes sense. It is an interesting debate, but it also Im sure is a touchy subject to some.)
I think the problem is part of the larger issue of whether it is really "acceptable" to field SS armies and their paraphernalia (or the "evil" armies of other times and regimes for that matter.) and how far is it appropriate (or sensible) to extend the imagery of said regimes. It seems that BF have some sensibilities in this, as they do not produce Swastika or SS-rune dice or patches, though that could easily be in order to permit greater European sales as much to prevent offence. Reading the fluff, they also have a tendency (it seems) to gloss over the more unpalatable activities of combatants.
Hmm...maybe there is an unacceptable element to fielding Wehrmacht Armies and the SS in particular. I think I approach this from the an Intellectual exercise ( I mean wargaming) I don't necessarily subscribe to their idealogy. This is a mutual understanding in Wargaming, but to the wider public it would probably be viewed as alarming. I don't believe in the Ayran Brotherhood or anything yet i do field a Panzer Lehr Army with SS Allies. Maybe I am the hypocrite?
To Most people the Iron Cross is a symbol of evil, now to us who know better it's significance goes back to before the third Reich to the Imperial era. Furthermore the modern BUNDESWEHR uses a variant of this Cross. I definitely wouldn't want to walk around with a bag with this on, especially on Buses or Trains etc.
Just to be anal... Thats a Balkenkreuz, the stylised Iron Cross.
First used in 1918 Luftstreitkräfte in 1918.
The current Bundeswehr 'Iron Cross' is far more traditional;
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Phototoxin wrote:I'm irish. This is the butchers apron to me it is a symbol of opresson:
So for *safety* we should get rid of all union jacks lest other irishmen be offended?
Get over it... You have had 800 years of getting used to it. Thankfully most Irishmen are a little more sensible!
Indeed its a Balkankreuz, generally used in FOW for generic Heer formations. Heer tend to be seen as more acceptable because they weren't "as evil" as the SS (though that is a bit of a myth and a generalization.) As far as I recall the only really "clean" German units were the Fallschirmjager and possibly the Afrika Korps. The Kriegsmarine get tarnished by the U-boat brush, and the Luftwaffe were responsible for POW camps, and some of the atrocities therein.
When playing SS or their ilk, I use the following "justification".. when I was a kid, someone always had to play "Cobra" or "Decepticon"...without evil there can be no "Good Guys."
mwnciboo wrote:Hmm...maybe there is an unacceptable element to fielding Wehrmacht Armies and the SS in particular. I think I approach this from the an Intellectual exercise ( I mean wargaming) I don't necessarily subscribe to their idealogy. This is a mutual understanding in Wargaming, but to the wider public it would probably be viewed as alarming. I don't believe in the Ayran Brotherhood or anything yet i do field a Panzer Lehr Army with SS Allies. Maybe I am the hypocrite?
Question is, do you have SS Allies because you believe in what they stood for? Do you play Germans because you believe in that Ayran Birthright? Odds are you do not.
Remember, not all Germans were Nazis. Not all German Soldiers hated jews. Im not excusing the regime or justifying what was done or even attempting to gloss over it. However to write them all off as evil beings is completely unfair. Confederate Soldiers werent all supporters of Slavery.
I mean, I have no problems seeing people field those armies. Its hard to describe this without glorifying war in some manner and I do not wish to be seen as only doing that. I play Germans because of the air of invincibility. The thought that German armed forces were unstoppable. And in late war, its holding on, even in the face of an overwhelming enemy. Not because I personally believe in Nazi Propaganda. And if some one can not make that distinction, then that is their problem not mine.
I think it was best summed up by BF when they released one of their PDFs involving the SS Divisions and the Polish Uprising. They werent attempting to glorify anything or excuse anyone. Their purpose is to bring rules to us for a game that we play and nothing more and to read into it anymore then just a game of like minded Historical enthusiasts, is insane and pointless.
I believe the same arguments are had about historical re-enactors "doing" SS units, and the assumption that they must be supporters of the regime. To be fair, this is actually the case in some places, but in others, it is not. But how far does one go in censoring the related materials before one is destroying the history and the memory of the events? I believe that currently German law "sort of" allows for Anti-fascist use of fascist iconography, after a spate of cases where groups and individuals clearly opposed to Fascism were taken to court. Likewise it seems that some iconography (the Wolfsangel) is permissible when not affiliated to Right-wing groups. Might be tricky to prove in a court of law that humping around a lavishly painted company of SS-Hitlerjugend Panzergrenadiers is unrelated to Right Wing sympathies though. Perhaps if one is also carrying a company of Guards Armoured..?
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Remember, not all Germans were Nazis. Not all German Soldiers hated jews.
Previous to restrictions, plenty of very loyal and highly decorated German soldiers WERE Jews, who were totally behind many of the early aims of the party... the removal of the Polish Corridor and the repatriation of Danzig and Prussia, annexing the Sudetenland, renouncing the terms of Versailles...
Nah, that's still pretty damn clean by the standards of the conflict. And as has long been established, regular troops engaging "partisans" or "irregulars" or "Guerillas" or whatever term is popular is always one huge grey area as to what is or is not a reasonable response. Compared to activities in Russia, or Das Reich at Oradour, its a remarkable restrained response.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This being posted, should we now add the Fallschirmjager badge to the list of verboten patches? Do they do an RAF roundel for Dresden?
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Nah, that's still pretty damn clean by the standards of the conflict. And as has long been established, regular troops engaging "partisans" or "irregulars" or "Guerillas" or whatever term is popular is always one huge grey area as to what is or is not a reasonable response. Compared to activities in Russia, or Das Reich at Oradour, its a remarkable restrained response.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This being posted, should we now add the Fallschirmjager badge to the list of verboten patches? Do they do an RAF roundel for Dresden?
What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Both of which were targets of little military importance.
As for the Fallschirmjager badge, I don't see a problem with it. It may have the swastika, but there are still plenty of cultures around the world to whom the swastika is a religious symbol.
Honestly, I find it backwards for people to deem things like the swastika and the Confederate flag as "backwards" or "politically incorrect". These are honest events that happened, and we as a collective race should learn from these mistakes, not cover them up. Hitler's acts were inexcusable, but if all modern society does is try to hide the Nazi regime or throw it under the rug as a problem of the 1930's-40's, then we've got some serious issues.
Do these things represent very sensitive topics? Absolutely. Should we let people flaunt these symbols, of course not. However, people need to not only keep things in context, and in this case I hardly doubt a wargamer with an SS symbol on his bag is pro-Nazi, but we also need to accept that these atrocities happened, learn from them, and move on, rather than try to erase the ideas of the Nazi party.
My point is that the wider public are not Wargamers. They don't have the same sensibilities as us, the public still associate these symbols very readily with the evils of the Nazi regime and in many ways they are right to do so, as the psychological scars and that a large number of european families that lost family members and suffered, still feel it 70 years on. (Yes others did, however Europe, Russia & Japan suffered most proportionally)
Would you honestly carry one of these cases, with a Death's Head motif on Public transport? For the whole world to see? I believe you would be in for a world of problems. You could even potentially be charged for inciting Racial hatred. It is not wise to wear the SS Patches.
mwnciboo wrote:
You cannot as a Rational Human being, argue that the SS is just a symbol. I have been to Belsen, it sickened me to the core. SS was heavily into teutonic chivalric symbology coupled with their unspeakable inhuman acts, dipping subjects in ice water and nitrogen until they died to establish point of death, experiments on twins, the killing of Gypsies, Homosexuals, the disabled and anyone who questioned the regime. etc.
I really do not think that be associated with this in anyway is a good thing or can be condoned in anyway. BTW enjoying the debate, it hasn't descended into the ridiculous.....yet.
What's changed - in the UK you can legally abort for club foot, or cleft pallet (easily fixable) and Down's syndrome. They might be wearing white coats but most of medicine is actually a form of necromancy!
Also I do find it interesting that the holocaust wasn't a big thing until much later, that the number keeps going up and up every few years. When I did history about 10 years ago it was 3.5 million. It might border on denial bt I do think it's quite a disproportionate thing. Genocides in Rawanda no one cares about..
While a wargamer may have no issues with such things, that is not the response of the average member of the public.
At the least it further adds to that veil of 'weirdoness' that covers gamers.
There is still a recognition, and association, with such symbols and the support of Nationalist and Nazi style political leanings. I know from first hand, having indulged in reenactment as a Waffen-SS soldier. I can tell you know, while some do it out of historical interest, others do have a rather unsavoury side to their, almost hero worship of the Waffen-SS formations, driven in no small part by the complete redefinition of the Waffen-SS by the popular history publishers... SS sell books, so over the last 20 years we have seen them turn from evil pariahs, to 'Hitlers Knights' with all the connotations that this gives with regards, honour, loyalty and chivalry. I have even seen one history of Das Reich, by a well published author, that mentions Oradour simply in a footnote stating it has no nearing on their military history.
We need to remember history, but is a fine line between remembering and turning something into something its not through glorification of only one aspect of them. This has happened with the Waffen-SS, whom I am reliably informed are 'kewl'.
Perhaps its an age thing. I grew up with war veterans as family members. My extended family fought on both sides in WW2, some in unsavoury formations. To me such symbols, as I have grown older, in part a certain sense of a persons psyche if they have them emblazoned on them. I wouldnt bat an eyelid at a Balkankreuz, but someone with SS runes on a bag... Well that may raise an eyebrow. I suppose if the person using it knows full well both sides of the coin with regards the Waffen-SS, then all well and good, but I suspect many dont.
Having worn a Waffen-SS uniform at public events, the reactions to it do range from nil to violence. Unsurprisingly the most positive responce I got was from British Army veterans who were interested in seeing the old enemy recreated, while the most vehement reactions came from a group of young Jewish men. I have no issue with either response, both were valid. As I got older, I found I didnt want to run around pretending to be a 'Nazi soldier' anymore. Besides... Too many fat reenactors these days. Most SS units look like Volksturm who have eaten too many pies.
It is a matter of public perception. Many people might not even register that these symbols are "bad" per se, but try walking around in a Cradle of Filth "Vestal Masturbation" t-shirt in the average bus station. (Its the one with JESUS IS A C**T on the back and a Nun..er..you know..). Easily arrested as a public order offence. But a wolfsangel? You have to know what that means to be offended by it.
+1 Very well reasoned post. and yeah some re-enactors need to hit the PT a bit more. I wish there was more of an ACTORS bent on it, e.g. for Movies etc. Professional stuntmen and extra's (ex-service people). As a serviceman i get annoyed at the amateur look of some films and TV programs.
The Irish Army does alot of this TV Extras stuff. Having been on the ground in the Horn of Africa nobody cares about Africa, least of all other africans. Life is cheap, in africa its practically worthless.
ArbeitsSchu wrote: But a wolfsangel? You have to know what that means to be offended by it.
Indeed... But some do know what it means.
Besides, do we really want the ridiculous 'morally-outraged' tabloid press having a field day with "Nazi Bags for Toy Soldiers" headlines... Reminds me of the days when the tabloids found out that D&D had demons in them, and thus all RPGers were devil worshippers!
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Nah, that's still pretty damn clean by the standards of the conflict. And as has long been established, regular troops engaging "partisans" or "irregulars" or "Guerillas" or whatever term is popular is always one huge grey area as to what is or is not a reasonable response. Compared to activities in Russia, or Das Reich at Oradour, its a remarkable restrained response.
Its amazing that turning an entire city packed with civilians into a furnace or Fire Bombing Tokyo is regarded as pretty damn clean. However when the other side does it, and its reprehensible. The victor gets to put on trial whoever they want, but it does not excuse the acts that both sides did. Pretty damn clean indeed.
mwnciboo wrote:...Would you honestly carry one of these cases, with a Death's Head motif on Public transport? For the whole world to see? ...
Guess Im lucky in the fact that I do not have to, nor would I ever really want to carry my army on public transportation. The most it would be seen in public in my life would be the movement from house to car, car to game store.
Perhaps though, on a college campus, such a item would be distasteful to some. Again though, one would need to know what they are looking at and know. Average person in the United States, I would say know a Swastika and some of the more "popular/well known" SS symbols. However, something like the Death's Head symbol I would say doubtful, very doubtful.
That doesnt make it okay though. I Really dont have a problem with this product because if you buy it, you are the one having to deal with it. Its not like they are forcing you to take the patches. You have to buy it.
I have no issue or reservation with the Balkankreuz patch. I find a fair number of war/video games have adapted that as being the socially tolerable symbol of WW2 era Germany. Moreover, the Iron Cross is still used by military formations in the modern day (in a different style), and predates World War 2 as well. The others might hit me as being a bit sketchy if I was to see them in any setting other than a historical wargaming event/shop.
It may have the swastika, but there are still plenty of cultures around the world to whom the swastika is a religious symbol.
Yes i believe its one of the oldest symbols in the world. Its over 3000 years old.
And as a side note. The Imperial Army was just as bad if not worse than the Nazis or the Soviets yet there has been no mention of the atrocities they committed.
NO ONE would get angry if you walked around with a massive cherry blossom symbol on your stuff.
Phototoxin wrote:I'm irish. This is the butchers apron to me it is a symbol of opresson:
So for *safety* we should get rid of all union jacks lest other irishmen be offended?
Symbol of oppression my arse.
Should I also abhore the Irish Tricolour because of the murdering bastards that blew up innocent people, including their own?
Good grief. Get a grip man. Someone could say something about every national flag there is.
There is no comparison with the patches Mcwinboo has shown.
I think most people are pretty safe walking around with any of that stuff. Since there is no swastika patch, most people won't even know what those mean, even the Totenkopf. (and, btw, the Totenkopf was also used by standard army/Heer tankers, not just SS!) A recent poll asking who the US declared independence from revealed only 60% of people asked knew we were once part of England. An obscure runic badge on the side of a bag isn't going to make one hill of difference.
Heck, I used to be amazed that the Flames of War dice still had the swastikas on some pieces, like the Afrika Korps ones, but they are not concerned with the political implications, they are creating historical miniatures.
ArbeitsSchu wrote: But a wolfsangel? You have to know what that means to be offended by it.
Indeed... But some do know what it means.
Besides, do we really want the ridiculous 'morally-outraged' tabloid press having a field day with "Nazi Bags for Toy Soldiers" headlines... Reminds me of the days when the tabloids found out that D&D had demons in them, and thus all RPGers were devil worshippers!
Well they are, but hey.
I want a BUF badge so I can hang about near the Daily Mail offices. Surely that "Very English Civil War" group must do those? Then they can have a "Nazi Bag" headline, and everyone else can have a "Nazi rag gets ironic rage." headline instead.
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Comintern wrote:
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Nah, that's still pretty damn clean by the standards of the conflict. And as has long been established, regular troops engaging "partisans" or "irregulars" or "Guerillas" or whatever term is popular is always one huge grey area as to what is or is not a reasonable response. Compared to activities in Russia, or Das Reich at Oradour, its a remarkable restrained response.
Its amazing that turning an entire city packed with civilians into a furnace or Fire Bombing Tokyo is regarded as pretty damn clean. However when the other side does it, and its reprehensible. The victor gets to put on trial whoever they want, but it does not excuse the acts that both sides did. Pretty damn clean indeed.
I was referring to the singular event of German paratroops shooting civilians, not Dresden. You brought that up.
I think that given their general record, 100 civilians, any of whom may actually have been engaged in partisan warfare, is still a very good war record for the Fallschirmjager. Its not perfect, but its exemplary by comparison to other units. The perceived mutilation of soldiers is quite understandably something of a provocation for combat troops, and its not surprising that it led to some form of retribution.
As for Dresden..as horrific as it is, when one initiates Total War, one should probably not be overly surprised if people wage Total war against you in return. I believe there is a quote about reaping whirlwinds that is often applied at this point.
I'm loathe to put any 'gaming' symbols on my carry case. I like my carry cases to look nondescript and have that magical 'does not contain valuables like an expensive laptop' aura to them.
Phototoxin wrote:I'm irish. This is the butchers apron to me it is a symbol of opresson:
So for *safety* we should get rid of all union jacks lest other irishmen be offended?
Symbol of oppression my arse.
Should I also abhore the Irish Tricolour because of the murdering bastards that blew up innocent people, including their own?
Good grief. Get a grip man. Someone could say something about every national flag there is.
There is no comparison with the patches Mcwinboo has shown.
In the same way that Nazi iconography excites greater ire in Germany than it does in.. India...and the Rising Sun is likely to piss off the Chinese more than an Argentinian, the Union Flag is likely to generate some serious angst for the wearer in many places in Ireland (the land-mass rather than the nation.). In certain parts of NI, the Union Flag would probably get you set on fire, whilst the Totenkopf would hardly rate a second glance.
I recall in Tunisia my partner receiving several angry responses from locals, for no apparent reason. Then a rather less aggressive stall-holder pointed out that she was wearing a stars and stripes bandana. People assumed she was American. But wearing that same bandana in the UK, or the states... nothing. No problem.
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George Spiggott wrote:I'm loathe to put any 'gaming' symbols on my carry case. I like my carry cases to look nondescript and have that magical 'does not contain valuables like an expensive laptop' aura to them.
You could do the reverse? Get an E-Machine logo and stick it on there. Nobody steals that toss.
my opion as a combat vet who has been in the bloody dirty hell , life and death that war is . combat is so hard for anyone who hasn't participated in to under stand . every country has committed atrocities . because war it self is atrocities . some stick out more then others because the media centers on more then others . to me wargaming is such a forgien fake replica of real combat it doesn't offend me . but if your a wargamer you should have thick skin . your playing a game were you push hordes of people to there imaginary deaths and make sick jokes and laugh at the outcomes the " game" . honestly i could care less . i think its harmless toy playing for me , an adult who refuses to grow up lol . but people will say how evil the nazi were . ( wicth they were ) but then have no problem playing imperial guard who are hundreds of time more sinister and opressive . its just an idea i had . wargamers thicken up your skin your hobbies is a little out there to begin with dont take offense to everything out there . im going back to painting my zulu army who by the way disembowled and dismembered there enemy . then im going to paint some indians for my french indian wars who would rape women smash babies heads open and bite the fingers off preachers hand ( so they couldn't give holy sacrement ) then im going to paint some japanese for ww2 whod kill women and children and impale chinese civilians heads on stakes .. just kidding i like debate ..theres my two cents
The Deaths Head motif is not obscure, not by a long shot it many people know of it from History lessons at school, Media such as Sunday Papers, museum trips and Films (Schindlers list anyone). It might be a British and European thing, it was all a hell of a lot close to us than to most American Families living in the States (bar Hawaii and the Phillipines etc).
A case in point, I've always been into 40k and my wife (a Masters Graduate in Geography & Welsh, and a Phd in Town planning) has never taken more than a passing, vague and polite interest, she doesn't get it. Since I got into FOW, she went in to the spare room and wanted to know "What is this?" indicating the German Iron Cross Decalled units and Dice. She got a little upset, as her Great Uncle Douglas, alive up until 2003. Landed with the British Airbourne on D-day in a Horsa Glider, which smashed into a Canal, killing 10 of his squad when the Jeep bounced loose. He was captured on 6th of June near the Merville battery and was a POW till the late war. Her Father, had typed up his memoires in the late 90's on a PC.
She didn't have a problem with Fantasy, but this realistic setting and truth makes it very different to her. However I argued it was intellectual and a pastime and that I made model Airplanes with my Grandfather who was Pilot in the RAF 1942 -45. The 1st one he gave me was FW190 when I was 10. She made a house rule, that my German Army must not be on display and be kept in it's KR multicase and not put in my Glass cabinet. In a strange way I am not sure If I should collect a Para-Army to represent Cpl Doug Jacobs Company but I won't discuss it because much as I would like to do this, I think it is inappropriate, plus I love her and would not want to upset her or diminish my self in her eyes.
Freedom of expression is a fine ideal, but the human complications of our relationships our personal and national histories intertwine and make certain things less acceptable and palatable to others. In an Ideal world, Freedom of expression is great, but in reality we need boundabries to contain and mould our collective morals. Not everything goes. 99.99% of people on earth believe Child Abuse is abhorent, under freedom of expression someone could potentially say "I think this is good, there is nothing wrong with this". I absolutely believe in personal responsibility but I do not believe in complete freedom of expression, neither (in the UK) does the Law. Inciting Racial or religious hatred is an offence. I think being pragmatic we have to accept that there are many implicit rules within society we obey without thinking because it is the acceptable norm.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:
I think that given their general record, 100 civilians, any of whom may actually have been engaged in partisan warfare, is still a very good war record for the Fallschirmjager. Its not perfect, but its exemplary by comparison to other units. The perceived mutilation of soldiers is quite understandably something of a provocation for combat troops, and its not surprising that it led to some form of retribution.
The village was selected due to the corpses of Fallschirmjager being nearby.
The mutilation of troops has subsequently been suggested as to have been caused by animals feeding on the corpses. But I do have my own sources, based in Crete, that reliably inform me that Fallschirmjager hung-up in trees did have their throats slit...
"When Crete was taken in late May [1941], similar policies [reprisal actions] were introduced. Outraged by the part the islanders had played in resisting the invasion and attacking German paratroopers, General Kurt Student, commander of the XI Air Corps, ordered 'Revenge Operations', and explained to his troops what these were in terms that left no room for ambiguity: '1) Shootings; 2) Forced Levies; 3) Burning down villages; 4) Estermination (Ausrottung) of the male population of the entire region'. What these instructions led to was captured on film by Franz-Peter Weixler, who photographed an ad hoc firing party shooting the men of Kondomari in cold blood in the olive groves outside their village on 2 June. In Student's words: 'All operations are to be carried out with great speed, leaving aside all formalities and certainly dispensing with special courts.... These are not meant for beasts and murderers.' Greek sources estimate that 2,000 civilians were shot on Crete at this time. This figure is probably exaggerated; but we do know that the village of Kandanos was razed to the ground as a warning, and that large numbers of villagers were summarily shot not only in Kondomari but also in in Alikianos and elsewhere." (Mark Mazower Inside Hitler's Greece , 1993).
According to Tony Simpson in his book 'Operation Mercury' FJ Major Snowatzki forced British Pows to help clear the airfield of debris while under fire. Three who refused were shot by the Major.
Then there are the war crime for Holland in 1940 and 1944.
Also the shooting of US Prisoners by FJ6 outside Cisterna in January 1944.
I spent a good few years researching the Fallschirmjager for my MA and they aint the good boys people like to believe. Like all of the Wehrmacht, they had their dark side.
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ArbeitsSchu wrote: In certain parts of NI, the Union Flag would probably get you set on fire
Something tells me you aint been to Ireland recently...
mwnciboo wrote:A case in point, I've always been into 40k and my wife (a Masters Graduate in Geography & Welsh, and a Phd in Town planning) has never taken more than a passing, vague and polite interest, she doesn't get it. Since I got into FOW, she went in to the spare room and wanted to know "What is this?" indicating the German Iron Cross Decalled units and Dice. She got a little upset, as her Great Uncle Douglas, alive up until 2003. Landed with the British Airbourne on D-day in a Horsa Glider, which smashed into a Canal, killing 10 of his squad when the Jeep bounced loose. He was captured on 6th of June near the Merville battery and was a POW till the late war. Her Father, had typed up his memoires in the late 90's on a PC.
I think you missed an opportunity there. You should have come out of the Nazi closet and told her that you are a Nazi lover and furthermore that you have chosen to show your hatred of the untermensch and your desire for lebensraum through the medium of your little iron cross dice. She's obviously a smart woman and would have immediately seen the truth in what you were saying. In time she would have come to accept you for what you really are.
On a more serious note, she was obviously ok with all the little 'Nazi' tanks and men you have. Was this perhaps because she didn't recognise them for what they are?
I'm well tempted to try this theory out on Mrs Spiggott. I'll get back to you with an answer.
war is hell and real . plastic men are plastic men . men in combat do things , men safe at home dont do . and the only way to understand that is to join the military serve in the infantry and take the ride . every side does what they have to kill the enemy and stay alive .
ArbeitsSchu wrote:
I think that given their general record, 100 civilians, any of whom may actually have been engaged in partisan warfare, is still a very good war record for the Fallschirmjager. Its not perfect, but its exemplary by comparison to other units. The perceived mutilation of soldiers is quite understandably something of a provocation for combat troops, and its not surprising that it led to some form of retribution.
The village was selected due to the corpses of Fallschirmjager being nearby.
The mutilation of troops has subsequently been suggested as to have been caused by animals feeding on the corpses. But I do have my own sources, based in Crete, that reliably inform me that Fallschirmjager hung-up in trees did have their throats slit...
"When Crete was taken in late May [1941], similar policies [reprisal actions] were introduced. Outraged by the part the islanders had played in resisting the invasion and attacking German paratroopers, General Kurt Student, commander of the XI Air Corps, ordered 'Revenge Operations', and explained to his troops what these were in terms that left no room for ambiguity: '1) Shootings; 2) Forced Levies; 3) Burning down villages; 4) Estermination (Ausrottung) of the male population of the entire region'. What these instructions led to was captured on film by Franz-Peter Weixler, who photographed an ad hoc firing party shooting the men of Kondomari in cold blood in the olive groves outside their village on 2 June. In Student's words: 'All operations are to be carried out with great speed, leaving aside all formalities and certainly dispensing with special courts.... These are not meant for beasts and murderers.' Greek sources estimate that 2,000 civilians were shot on Crete at this time. This figure is probably exaggerated; but we do know that the village of Kandanos was razed to the ground as a warning, and that large numbers of villagers were summarily shot not only in Kondomari but also in in Alikianos and elsewhere." (Mark Mazower Inside Hitler's Greece , 1993).
According to Tony Simpson in his book 'Operation Mercury' FJ Major Snowatzki forced British Pows to help clear the airfield of debris while under fire. Three who refused were shot by the Major.
Then there are the war crime for Holland in 1940 and 1944.
Also the shooting of US Prisoners by FJ6 outside Cisterna in January 1944.
I spent a good few years researching the Fallschirmjager for my MA and they aint the good boys people like to believe. Like all of the Wehrmacht, they had their dark side.
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ArbeitsSchu wrote: In certain parts of NI, the Union Flag would probably get you set on fire
Something tells me you aint been to Ireland recently...
Seems the Irish are busy getting all hot about something at the moment. I wouldn't want to risk "showing the colours" in certain places over that way. For that matter, I know Irishmen over here who get terribly annoyed about the whole thing.
Fallschirm still buff up cleaner on the whole than the Heer, and the Heer are cleaner than the SS. Its all relative. Point is, how "dirty" does a unit have to be before wearing their BF patch is going to be unpalatable?
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George Spiggott wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:A case in point, I've always been into 40k and my wife (a Masters Graduate in Geography & Welsh, and a Phd in Town planning) has never taken more than a passing, vague and polite interest, she doesn't get it. Since I got into FOW, she went in to the spare room and wanted to know "What is this?" indicating the German Iron Cross Decalled units and Dice. She got a little upset, as her Great Uncle Douglas, alive up until 2003. Landed with the British Airbourne on D-day in a Horsa Glider, which smashed into a Canal, killing 10 of his squad when the Jeep bounced loose. He was captured on 6th of June near the Merville battery and was a POW till the late war. Her Father, had typed up his memoires in the late 90's on a PC.
I think you missed an opportunity there. You should have come out of the Nazi closet and told her that you are a Nazi lover and furthermore that you have chosen to show your hatred of the untermensch and your desire for lebensraum through the medium of your little iron cross dice. She's obviously a smart woman and would have immediately seen the truth in what you were saying. In time she would have come to accept you for what you really are.
On a more serious note, she was obviously ok with all the little 'Nazi' tanks and men you have. Was this perhaps because she didn't recognise them for what they are?
I'm well tempted to try this theory out on Mrs Spiggott. I'll get back to you with an answer.
Should I prepare the spare bed for when Mrs Spiggot brains you with a carry-case full of lead men?
ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Seems the Irish are busy getting all hot about something at the moment. I wouldn't want to risk "showing the colours" in certain places over that way. For that matter, I know Irishmen over here who get terribly annoyed about the whole thing.
Yer... You do know that its the Loyalist rioting the other night? Thats the ones waving the Union Jack... To be honest, US perceptions of the 'Troubles' tend to be often very wide of the mark. I had one American ask me what tanks the British used in Belfast as they figured it was like Baghdad and a full blown war.
Do you mean real Irish people, or those Americans that like to pretend they are Irish? You know... The ones that gave money to a terrorist organisation.
If War Crimes only count on a sliding scale, then yes, the FJ do have a better record than most, but thats a moot point to those on Crete. They still carry the scars of the occupation and still hate Germans. Having visited the island several times, it still amazes me how much of that hostility remains. Both the USA and GB were so lucky they never had to feel the pain of Nazi occupation.
Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.
Anyway, all a bit off-topic.
Would I carry a bag with an SS symbol on - no, not my cup-o-tea anymore.
Well, my wife understands that my German Army is really just models and not an underlining German fetish. However she doesn't want them out in a Glass case, becuase she thinks most people won't understand. Fair enough I think, she's not making me give it up but just be a bit careful that it's not some overt thing. I don't know how anyone can be an a LARP (re-enactor) all I can think about is "PEEP SHOW" when he ends up with that crazy slightly racist re-enactor. Or the "Mitchell and Webb look" sketch with the German Officers asking "Do you ever think, er, we've got skulls on our caps, are we the bad guys?"
Yup... Thats pretty much how Waffen-SS reenactment goes...
They dont get invited to alot of shows. I remember one unit who at an event had a big black SS rune flag flying... that didnt go down well.
My issue was more the fact that they were all too well fed to be SS troops.
I have seen one LAH Panzer Commander who would have a hard time getting in the turret hatch... My other pet hate was the guys who had beards and long hair! Why got to all the trouble of having the right kit and then long hair and a goatee? Looked so ridiculous... As for the unit who dressed their kids up as Hitler Youth... Well that really does ring alarm bells.
No, Big P it is very relevant, this topic is all about public perceptions to Symbology and Iconography. About what is acceptable and what isn't.
Here is a good pair to illustrate my point.
The Red cross, sign of Healing and aid in desperate times.
What is acceptable in most area's of the world is not in others. Hence SWASTIKA is acceptable in Hindi temples and other religions but in the Western Hemisphere would be frowned upon. Everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves and be concious of offending people with their attire and attitudes and language. Freedom of expression is not freedom to offend neither is it freedom to be intimidating. It is to be able to live in peace within the overall framework of the Law and not oppress, offend or belittle others in your society. Some radical mantra's are ridiculously offensive and living a relatively tolerant society like the UK makes me very happy and proud. Having been to Saudi Arabia and other places, it drives home the strength of tolerance but equally the marginalisation of radicals of Religious and Political hues.
"All it takes for Evil to flourish, is for good men to stand idly by". I would have no problem asking someone to remove an SS Patch from a Bag or remove a T-shirt, same as with people with large print Profanity on a T-shirt in public. It's about social respect and social responsibility. Broken record...
Big P wrote:
Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.
Nail on the head! What was I trying to post last night but just couldnt seem to word it well enough for me to put it here.
No one comes out clean in war.
However, another thing is to not condemn an entire group for the misdeeds of some. Not every Waffen SS soldier was a war criminal and alot of them fought with distinction no less valid then any allied soldier.
And if that is hard to swallow, think of this.
Not Every US Marine in Vietnam were "baby killers". To hold that opinion is to dishonor their service in my most humble opinion.
infinite_array wrote:There's a stereotype when people think of the American Civil War - that it was fought to end slavery. This is, in fact, wrong. Slavery may have been a factor in the War, but it certainly wasn't a deciding factor when some states seceded and formed the Confederacy. The Confederate flag stands for States Rights over Federal Power - a conflict that was still ongoing just before the ACW, and which the ACW ended.
Actually said battle is decidedly heating up again as the federal government turns more and more into a babysitting state. The healthcare act has many states fighting against it and many political action groups pushing states' rights louder than ever.
Either way only people with a clue about history really understand that the Civil War was fought over states' rights and not slavery. To the averege-Joe-on-the-street the Union fought to free the slaves, when in reality the Union fought to not lose half its tax base and the entirety of its agrarian production capability. As you said slavery definitely was a factor in the decisions of the south to feel they needed to secede to do things their way, but the Union really didn't go to war for that reason.
Symbols only have so much power as people give them.
Skriker
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Phototoxin wrote:Also I do find it interesting that the holocaust wasn't a big thing until much later, that the number keeps going up and up every few years. When I did history about 10 years ago it was 3.5 million. It might border on denial bt I do think it's quite a disproportionate thing. Genocides in Rawanda no one cares about..
Sadly the *Never again* mantra has morphed solidly into *Never again to US*. It really bothers me that the EU and US charge in with guns blazing to help those being repressed in Libya for a short time and continue to ignore the rest of the ethnic cleansing happening on the rest of the continent. It bothers me even more when you realize that a lot of the killing happening in the rest of the continent is based on lines drawn on the indigenous peoples by European colonists in the 18th and 19th centuries as a way to divide the threat of a whole combined native population.
Can we at least do away with the BS rationalization that makes everyone look like idiots when they help in Libya and not in other parts of Africa?? Come on. Have the balls to say "We are going into Libya in the hopes of garnering a better oil deal with a new regime." Do governments really think their people are that stupid??
Funny part about the Totenkopf symbol, some people wear it without even knowing what it still stands/stood for. Most people are oblivious to the symbolism behind it.
Yes I actually do have the patch on my FoW bag (Have SS 3rd Totenkopf for EW/MW/LW), just like I have the British patch for my other FoW bag (Have French EW/Brits for MW/LW). I use flags with Swastika's on them on my looted vehicles. Does that make me a Neo-Nazi? No, that is a ignorant statement. It's a HISTORICAL wargame.
Uneducated or also known as "sheltering" people from history is why we have people who have no clue OR refuse to believe that the Holocaust ever happened.
I guess that's the funny thing about symbols in general; people attach so much to them. We make them what they are depending on how they're used.
I can cite countless symbols that currently mean something totally different today than what it was when it was created.
I can remember when I lived in Germany (then it was West Germany, Cold War times) back in the 70's and 80's (circa 76-84 to be exact) when KISS would tour there, they changed their lightning-s logo to the double-z logo as to not infer anything with the SS.....I believe, IIRC, it was part a German government thing and part tour-manager deal there, but I'm not sure. I suppose that may have been the early start of political correctness, but I think it was done with good intentions for the German community.
Yer... You do know that its the Loyalist rioting the other night? Thats the ones waving the Union Jack... To be honest, US perceptions of the 'Troubles' tend to be often very wide of the mark. I had one American ask me what tanks the British used in Belfast as they figured it was like Baghdad and a full blown war.
Do you mean real Irish people, or those Americans that like to pretend they are Irish? You know... The ones that gave money to a terrorist organisation.
Considering that the 'Troubles' period was a complex ethnoreligious-political conflict, it's easy to understand why most in the US aren't able to figure it out. Add to that the background spans some 389 years, I won't sweat the average American not getting it....as it is, British and Irish history can be pretty complex regardless. I can still remember pictures being beamed back in the US when I was young about those times and maybe due to media editing or whatever, yeah.....it kind of did look like Bagdad without the colors and sand....think most of those pics were of Derry, but it kind of looked like a warzone to me. I recall talking to a former Brit Para soldier who did the patrols in those times and he was 20 back then, and he said after a few weeks there, he said it turned his hair white due to the tension and stress (it's still white...like wow). I suppose Bagdad could be painted in the same light, but I can see where some may draw the comparison.....like I said before, I won't fault my fellow countrymen for not getting it, it's one of those things you have to be educated about I suppose.....
However, there are still those Irish-Catholics that still have active ties with their families in Ireland; you'll find that they're as real Irish as it gets, but yes, it was no surprise that the IRA (whether Provisional or Official) was getting support from them. Interesting to note that the period up until '72 was considered an 'insurrection' and then afterwards it was considered 'terrorism' by British authorities. Some Americans still retain their ties with the homeland, others don't; whether that makes them Euro-Americans, I'm not one to say as every family is different, but I'm pretty sure the Irish community is still strong in Massachusetts.....I can't speak for any other areas.
Big P wrote:I think the same thing when I see people wearing 1st SS LAH T-shirts...
Cant help but think its a little odd... I love WW2 but not sure what wearing a Waffen-SS t-shirt is meant to say. The only impression I imagine it would give to Joe Public is 'Im a Nazi - and Proud'.
But each to their own... Such displays aint really for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, though a related one, I once saw a white guy get a severe warning from a group of coloured gentlemen over his wearing of a Confederate flag as a bandana.
To him its connotations were inoccuous, to this group they saw it as overtly racist.
Funny the same thing happened when I was in high school, what was interesting is the white kids started wearing the flag because black kids were wearing Malcom X shirts that said "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand". I thought both sides were pretty stupid, but it was interesting that nobody cared when the white kids complained, only after they were ignored did they start wearing the "It's a white thing, you wouldn't understand" shirts, only then did the school step in.
Off topic - Going back to the Mitchell and Webb thing, these pair are a top UK Comedy Duo responsible for Peep Show and their own stand-up and possibly the greatest White Dwarf put down on mainstream TV.
"I'm cancelling it out of shame, just like my subscription to White Dwarf".
Here are some links..
Some priceless Quotes in these.
Oh and Armstrong and Miller are top too. (The RAF is not a million miles away from this).
The 1st sketch about the Deaths head symbol is quite relevant.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Seems the Irish are busy getting all hot about something at the moment. I wouldn't want to risk "showing the colours" in certain places over that way. For that matter, I know Irishmen over here who get terribly annoyed about the whole thing.
Yer... You do know that its the Loyalist rioting the other night? Thats the ones waving the Union Jack... To be honest, US perceptions of the 'Troubles' tend to be often very wide of the mark. I had one American ask me what tanks the British used in Belfast as they figured it was like Baghdad and a full blown war.
Do you mean real Irish people, or those Americans that like to pretend they are Irish? You know... The ones that gave money to a terrorist organisation.
If War Crimes only count on a sliding scale, then yes, the FJ do have a better record than most, but thats a moot point to those on Crete. They still carry the scars of the occupation and still hate Germans. Having visited the island several times, it still amazes me how much of that hostility remains. Both the USA and GB were so lucky they never had to feel the pain of Nazi occupation.
Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.
Anyway, all a bit off-topic.
Would I carry a bag with an SS symbol on - no, not my cup-o-tea anymore.
I'm not American. I know that a Humber Pig isn't a tank. I mean real genuine Irishmen from Ireland (both sides of the border.) who still get monstrously pissed off about centuries of "troubles." Tip for a fun night's work... don't end up stuck between a flag-waving BNP-voting Englishman, and an equally "patriotic" Irishman when the alcohol has been flowing, because you will get EVERY MINUTE of those 800 years, or at least up until they start trying to glass each other. Some grudges just will not die.
I would like to point out that the totenkopf is not in fact a nazi symbol but a old Prussian military symbol worn by hussars as far back as Fred the Great. This is another case of misplaced symbolism.
As far as the evilness of plastic nazis goes I think that, for my generation at least, we've moved on a bit and can accept that its a game and not real life. After all if I play as germans in video games or table top games it doesn't eman I support the nazi cause, it just means I either like the aesthetics of the faction or the play style.
There is an old saying "The weight of words or symbols are only what you give them, while actions or inaction can bury a man"....
This is a game and the patches are simply there to act as unit identifiers and army markers.....not I think personal preferences. There isn't a country or army in existence that hasn't committed an atrocity. But it is the doom of men that we forget....and therefore repeat the failures and atrocities of the past. As a game about such a world altering event as WW2 its fun and strategic...not meant as a history lesson. Can it lead to a better understanding of history..YES! But this isn't a historical debate on modern influences to past atrocities and their current ramifications on a social conscience. Its a 15mm WW2 mini's game with cool tanks and patches and great "Fluff"...
At the end of WW2 the SS were declared a criminal organization, and quite right too, all symbols that are related to this criminal organization were banned in most countries in Europe by an international tribunal and this is still the case today.
Putting up national flags and saying "isn't this offensive as well?" has got nothing to do with anything, those national flags are not criminal organizations and have not been banned.
Playing a WW2 Wargame is fine, playing the SS is fine, its an important part of the history and should not be ignored, Putting a large Totenkopf symbol on your bag that you carry your figures around in is not fine.
No, it really isn't. Its a bag that you use to carry something around in, why does it need to have that symbol on it? Does it improve the performance of your army on the table? Is it necessary for your army's historical accuracy? Are you sooooo stupid that you cant tell which army is in which of your bags?
What are you then saying about yourself? That your a Nazi? OK maybe not, but are you saying "Ive got a Totenkopf army and I'm proud of it"? Or maybe "Ive got a Totenkopf army and I'm aware that they were a bunch of genocidal mass murdering psycho's that might have tortured and killed a relative of yours for gaks and giggles, but I'm okay with that and I'm willing to stand here on this Bus/Train station/Airport/High street/shopping centre and argue that they weren't all bad and some of them were really decent chaps if you got to know them over a pint"
Wargaming can and does have a negative image for many different reasons, do you think this helps?
Wargaming is not a History lesson? Really? Sorry, thats exactly what wargaming is, that is why wargaming was invented, that is the whole point, to have a better understanding of the history of war and then to train people not to make the same mistakes. I cant believe you have just described the history of a group of men that burned, raped, loooted and murdered their way across Europe and Asia as "Fluff"!!!!!!!
And dreager96 in one post you have illustrated exactly what is wrong with BF and it's nifty little "Cool" SS patches.
The SS are not "Cool", nothing about the SS is "Cool" and yet here we have a company that is, with its own twisted version of history making the SS "Cool" to a whole new generation that have little real understanding of the horror of global total war.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MattRendar wrote:war is hell and real . plastic men are plastic men . men in combat do things , men safe at home dont do . and the only way to understand that is to join the military serve in the infantry and take the ride . every side does what they have to kill the enemy and stay alive .
This is very true, however most combat soldiers dont also round up all the women and children in an area, herd them into a building and set fire to it because they dont like them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Comintern wrote:
Big P wrote:
Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.
Nail on the head! What was I trying to post last night but just couldnt seem to word it well enough for me to put it here.
No one comes out clean in war.
However, another thing is to not condemn an entire group for the misdeeds of some. Not every Waffen SS soldier was a war criminal and alot of them fought with distinction no less valid then any allied soldier.
And if that is hard to swallow, think of this.
Not Every US Marine in Vietnam were "baby killers". To hold that opinion is to dishonor their service in my most humble opinion.
Black Edelweis by Johann Voss
suggested reading.
But Im afraid your very wrong, an international court decided exactly that. Every Waffen SS Soldier WAS a war criminal because they belonged to a criminal organisation. And anyone who thinks that the Waffen SS were some how more noble or removed from what the rest of the SS were up to doesn't know their history very well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EmilCrane wrote:I would like to point out that the totenkopf is not in fact a nazi symbol but a old Prussian military symbol worn by hussars as far back as Fred the Great. This is another case of misplaced symbolism.
As far as the evilness of plastic nazis goes I think that, for my generation at least, we've moved on a bit and can accept that its a game and not real life. After all if I play as germans in video games or table top games it doesn't eman I support the nazi cause, it just means I either like the aesthetics of the faction or the play style.
Do you think the entire German population woke up one morning with a overwhelming hatred of all things Jewish and a burning desire to invade Poland? Do you not think that the "aesthetics of the faction" had something to do with winning over a proportion of the population to the Nazi way of thinking? Thats why they are not accetable in most of Europe, thats why in some countries you would get arrested with your "Cool" bag, not because your offending anyone, because you might be encouraging someome you idiot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spacewolverine wrote:Funny part about the Totenkopf symbol, some people wear it without even knowing what it still stands/stood for. Most people are oblivious to the symbolism behind it.
Yes I actually do have the patch on my FoW bag (Have SS 3rd Totenkopf for EW/MW/LW), just like I have the British patch for my other FoW bag (Have French EW/Brits for MW/LW). I use flags with Swastika's on them on my looted vehicles. Does that make me a Neo-Nazi? No, that is a ignorant statement. It's a HISTORICAL wargame.
Uneducated or also known as "sheltering" people from history is why we have people who have no clue OR refuse to believe that the Holocaust ever happened.
Educating people is a noble thing and I'm all for that, exactly how are you educating someone by having a Totenkopf symbol on a bag?
Love self-righteous soap box internet screamers and the causes...its a fricken game...with no ill-intent or political views behind it. History is objective, this happened at this time to these people....cut and dry. All the "smart " people try to interject their opinions as to why or add in a "what -if". Not once did it mention in Flames of War that by using this product you are acknowledging the Heinous crimes committed by the 3rd Reich. GROW UP! The worst thing is life is some one who knows a little and thinks they know it all. Its a game. It does not infer a degree or working knowledge of History. But if you think people play a certain army for political views your an idiot. I have been in combat zones for the last 6 years...and nothing of what is written will ever come close to the truth of what happens here are has happened here. There are so many micro chasms in this place it would be impossible. Nor would I try to convey them in a game.
If the aesthetics of the faction were a contributing factor towards the popularity of the SS and its aims, then obviously they must have been "cool" at some point. (Anachronistic terminology notwithstanding.) You can't say "Nothing about the SS is cool" in one breath, then lambast another individual by saying "The coolness of the group is a contributing factor to their evil." You're right. The "aesthetics" is one of the major points about Nazi-ism that made it so dangerous and popular. Hugo Boss uniforms, expressly designed symbology (as opposed to random designs of inherited heraldry)... so by definition, the SS were "cool".
Also, I'm not sure that BF are doing a "twisted" version of history particularly. We aren't talking about Holocaust Denial here. Occasional details (Polish AAA or Air in Early War) are lacking, but certainly not mass revisionism.
And I think what Comintern was saying is that not every SS solider committed a War Crime. An international court could find an entire unit, army, or even race to be War Criminals, but that does not mean that every member of that unit, army etc actually did something considered a war crime.
I just wish people would remember the lines between fact and fiction. This is a fictional based, ww2 themed game were you get to maneuver historically accurate tanks and miniatures in make believe battles based on your own inputs and the roll of the dice. Like when we were kids and someone had to play the bad guy.
Symbols are everywhere and remembering that they are themed with the products and not with History goes a long way to avoid misunderstandings.
Yes when I look at the "SS" marking I know what historically they intoned...but as far as a game I see Fearless veteran infantry with cool camouflage and way too expensive in points.
But too also point that out, that we the "Western countries" fought over German technology; medical, rockets, physics, mechanical engineering isnt to say we didn't profit from there atrocities , is it?
At the end of the day we are talking about a logo here. OK, so maybe its not the most sensible thing to wear in certain areas, and one should be prepared to face some arguments about it, and like all "War" related things, its going to upset some people more than others, but its not as if BF have just released the PDFs for SS Totenkopfverrband and Untermenschen, with a colour insert of the various Concentration camp badges, a "How To" on painting striped pyjamas, and the scenario "Herd the Juden onto the train." using TT-scale track and enclosed wagons made of plasticard. Historically inaccurate they may be..playing loose and free with the capabilities of certain units for "game balance", yes they are... but promoting the SS and its ilk? No. "Twisted history"? Not really.
What the hell is wrong with you? You are defending the concept of carrying around, in public, a symbol of a unit that is regarded as the most evil, twisted and sick murderers in the history of warfare, a unit that was formed from concentration camp guards, a single unit that commited the worst attrocities in a war that is infamous for its barbarism and yet stands out heads above the rest.......... So that your bag looks good? Or you think your bag looks good anyway, I think you'd look like a Tool and if I saw you in the street, I'd tell you so.
dreager96: You have no personal knowlege of who I am or what Ive seen, so ram it sunshine! I also suggest you look up the actual history of wargaming itself and why it was invented.
Napoleon, in his day, was regarded by the people of Europe as being every bit as bad as Hitler and his armies did terrible things, he was responsible for the death of millions. And yet today he is admired by many and no one finds anything the least bit offensive about him or his armies. The laws and taboos surrounding Nazi symbols were put in place so that this never happens with Hitler, they are there to remind everone that we must never forget.
Use of these symbols in this way waters down their meaning and this is the way that such symbols become acceptable, and that is dangerous and why the rules, laws and taboos were created in the first place.
My part in this conversation is now over, as I have no wish to converse with anyone who deems this as acceptable.
If you have a burning desire to spend your money then why not spend it on something worthwhile and not a symbol of evil, murdering, scum.
I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.
Also, you're again invalidating your own arguments. The SS are the most evil, twisted and sick etc etc, but Napoleon was regarded as as bad as Hitler and his armies killed lots of people in nasty ways... Maybe you need to calm down, take a step back, and consider your examples before you make them, so as to avoid contradicting yourself?
Never mind that the Deaths Head is STILL in use today by a dozen or more military units across the world eh? Best tell them they're using the logo of evil murdering scum... I'm sure it will go down well when you tell them to "ram it."
ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.
Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:
ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.
Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:
Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.
Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.
As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.
You lot have annoyed me to the point that Im going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.
EmilCrane wrote:I would like to point out that the totenkopf is not in fact a nazi symbol but a old Prussian military symbol worn by hussars as far back as Fred the Great. This is another case of misplaced symbolism.
Actually its use dates back to the Thirty Years War. It was used by several Cuirassier units serving with the Swedish Army of the period. During the Seven Years War it was used by one unit of Prussian hussars. It also became the symbol of the 'Black Brunswickers' after the death of their duke.
It remained a Germanic symbol, seeing a resurgence as a Sturmtruppen symbol during WW1, large use among Freikorps during the civil unrest in Germany following WW1 and then it was adopted as the symbol for the SS. It was the symbol of the SS-Totenkopfverbände and many of those in 3rd SS Totenkopf were initially ex-camp guards, while the divisional leader, Theodor Eicke, was Commandant of Dachau Concentration Camp from 1933 until he was appointed as Inspector of Concentration Camps in 1935, a role he fulfilled with great aplomb overseeing the creation of many new camps. In 1940 he was replaced as Inspector by Oswald Pohl and led 'Kampfgruppe Eicke' that went on to become Totenkopf. The division started as it meant to go on, with its first war crime recorded at Le Paradis in 1940 with 97 British POWs executed.
Its use by the SS remains its most obvious, and visually well-known symbol. Its association with that particular group is well known and its that infamy that could be seen as the difficulty to many.
As for BF having great 'fluff'... Well they didnt really need to write much. We used to call it 'history' in my day.
The case of whether or not it is a suitable symbol to have on a gamebag is a valid one. As opinions here prove. To some it is emotive, to others it matters little. I dont think wargaming needs such displays, but I dont think Im the demographic that the product is aimed at.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.
Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:
Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.
Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.
As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.
You lot have annoyed me to the point that Im going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.
I used the moderate term "aggressive" because Dakka filters all the really good descriptive words into "pseudo-swears". I'm sure you can use your imagination to expand "aggressive" into more accurate descriptors.
I've explained both times how you've contradicted yourself and your points. Though you intrigue me. How does removing something from sight allow later generations to remember it? What could have been banned or hidden after Napoleons France that would help people "remember" his atrocities? The Eagle perhaps?
And I would have thought that The Wiesenthal Centre might have more important things to do than listen to you whine that some wargamers on the internet refused to agree with your ratty toy-throwing fit...as much because it IS a dummy-throwing fit as because of any inherent wrongness in what you are saying. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread knows exactly what the SS and Nazi Germany did, and information about it is literally at their fingertips, symbology notwithstanding, and I'm also pretty sure that most people do not agree with or support those activities. Your hyperbolic ranting makes them out to be raging Neo-Nazis.
Also.. did you really just offer to "step outside" with a bunch of Americans, safe in the knowledge that nobodies budget stretches as far as a cross-atlantic trip to argue with you? Now that's hilarious. Especially when they aren't all Americans.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.
Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:
Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.
Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.
As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.
You lot have annoyed me to the point that I'm going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.
I used the moderate term "aggressive" because Dakka filters all the really good descriptive words into "pseudo-swears". I'm sure you can use your imagination to expand "aggressive" into more accurate descriptors.
I've explained both times how you've contradicted yourself and your points. Though you intrigue me. How does removing something from sight allow later generations to remember it? What could have been banned or hidden after Napoleons France that would help people "remember" his atrocities? The Eagle perhaps?
And I would have thought that The Wiesenthal Centre might have more important things to do than listen to you whine that some wargamers on the internet refused to agree with your ratty toy-throwing fit...as much because it IS a dummy-throwing fit as because of any inherent wrongness in what you are saying. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread knows exactly what the SS and Nazi Germany did, and information about it is literally at their fingertips, symbology notwithstanding, and I'm also pretty sure that most people do not agree with or support those activities. Your hyperbolic ranting makes them out to be raging Neo-Nazis.
Also.. did you really just offer to "step outside" with a bunch of Americans, safe in the knowledge that nobodies budget stretches as far as a cross-atlantic trip to argue with you? Now that's hilarious. Especially when they aren't all Americans.
You know what? Ive just spent 30mins of my life typing a reply to that and have just realised what a complete waste of my time that was and you are. Your not worth my time.
Out of interest I wrote to the German embassy asking what the position would be if I travelled to a wargame event in Germany - and there are numerous other European countries that have similar legislation - with a bag carrying the Das Riech badge on. This is their reply...
"Thank you for your enquiry of 14 July 2011 asking if you are allowed to bring a carry case bearing a patch of the SS into Germany.
The object in question contains a clearly visible symbol connected to Nazi Germany. You were right to assume that to possess and carry with you such objects in Germany, might cause difficulties in certain situations.
According to information received from the Federal Criminal Police Office, we can advise you as follows:
You are allowed to take such an object with you to Germany.
*However, it is forbidden to display it in public.*
Therefore, when taking the object with you on a plane, you must not take it out of your suitcase and show it to other people. You should rather pack it safely in your suitcase. In case a customs officer wants to inspect the suitcase you must make clear that you are taking it with you for a games convention and emphasize the private purpose of the matter. As for the games convention, I suggest contacting the organisers to find out if any special regulations apply.
The Embassy cannot give any guarantee that the possession of this object would not cause any difficulties during your stay in Germany. Depending on the situation, displaying the object might be considered as a criminal offence.
I am just going to go on record to say I disagree with your argument as a whole. I appreciate your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, at least in this country if I want to have a bag with a symbol on it then I most certainly can. Right or wrong in the eyes of others it is my right to do so.
And speaking of International Tribunal's that denounce the entire SS organization as a gang of criminals. Yes they did, but it does not make them all criminals. Afterall, this was the same group that turned a blind eye to everything else. However, this is not the point of the thread.
We will disagree on this. The Victors set the rules. There was no war crimes tribunal for officers of the US Army for what they did during the "Plains War". I care not.
I am just going to go on record to say I disagree with your argument as a whole. I appreciate your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, at least in this country if I want to have a bag with a symbol on it then I most certainly can. Right or wrong in the eyes of others it is my right to do so.
And speaking of International Tribunal's that denounce the entire SS organization as a gang of criminals. Yes they did, but it does not make them all criminals. Afterall, this was the same group that turned a blind eye to everything else. However, this is not the point of the thread.
We will disagree on this. The Victors set the rules. There was no war crimes tribunal for officers of the US Army for what they did during the "Plains War". I care not.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.
Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:
Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.
Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.
As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.
You lot have annoyed me to the point that I'm going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.
I used the moderate term "aggressive" because Dakka filters all the really good descriptive words into "pseudo-swears". I'm sure you can use your imagination to expand "aggressive" into more accurate descriptors.
I've explained both times how you've contradicted yourself and your points. Though you intrigue me. How does removing something from sight allow later generations to remember it? What could have been banned or hidden after Napoleons France that would help people "remember" his atrocities? The Eagle perhaps?
And I would have thought that The Wiesenthal Centre might have more important things to do than listen to you whine that some wargamers on the internet refused to agree with your ratty toy-throwing fit...as much because it IS a dummy-throwing fit as because of any inherent wrongness in what you are saying. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread knows exactly what the SS and Nazi Germany did, and information about it is literally at their fingertips, symbology notwithstanding, and I'm also pretty sure that most people do not agree with or support those activities. Your hyperbolic ranting makes them out to be raging Neo-Nazis.
Also.. did you really just offer to "step outside" with a bunch of Americans, safe in the knowledge that nobodies budget stretches as far as a cross-atlantic trip to argue with you? Now that's hilarious. Especially when they aren't all Americans.
You know what? Ive just spent 30mins of my life typing a reply to that and have just realised what a complete waste of my time that was and you are. Your not worth my time.
How foolish was that then? You already USED your time to type a reply. That's time wasted then. Your attempt to belittle me and my opinion would carry more weight if you had just no bothered to write a reply in the first place. Didn't think that through, did you? Nice to know that you put so much thought into arguing your position though. Guess I get to write you off as a troll now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On reflection I suppose I wont ever get to know what you think we should ban of Imperial France, in order to remind everyone how much of a tosser Napoleon was..
marielle wrote:Out of interest I wrote to the German embassy asking what the position would be if I travelled to a wargame event in Germany - and there are numerous other European countries that have similar legislation - with a bag carrying the Das Reich badge on. This is their reply...
(...)
The Embassy cannot give any guarantee that the possession of this object would not cause any difficulties during your stay in Germany. Depending on the situation, displaying the object might be considered as a criminal offence.
Emphasis mine.
Yet for some reason, some people still argue that this a trivial element ?
Of course, the production and sale of such a product is likely to be a criminal offence as well, which puts BF in a weird place.
Thanks for the support infinite_array, it is indeed a sincere post and not for trolling. Its interesting to see how many people will do what they like, just because they are free to do so. Just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea. Freedom of expression without responsibility or sensitivity is a recipe that is exploited by extremist groups everywhere. Being Polite and civil, is about curbing your tongue and being sensitive to others interests and cultures.
I think the Iron Cross is relatively acceptable (note the relative) that said the SS symbology is unquestionably unacceptable.
marielle wrote:Out of interest I wrote to the German embassy asking what the position would be if I travelled to a wargame event in Germany - and there are numerous other European countries that have similar legislation - with a bag carrying the Das Reich badge on. This is their reply...
(...)
The Embassy cannot give any guarantee that the possession of this object would not cause any difficulties during your stay in Germany. Depending on the situation, displaying the object might be considered as a criminal offence.
Emphasis mine.
Yet for some reason, some people still argue that this a trivial element ?
Of course, the production and sale of such a product is likely to be a criminal offence as well, which puts BF in a weird place.
Isnt BF a NewZealand Based company? I would take it that the country has no laws against these symbols and certainly not selling them! Purchasing them in the US is not against any laws. Now, if you buy them in Germany and display them then yes, apparently you are violating laws there, as well as if you did it in "several other European Nations". However, just because its illegal there, doesnt mean that BF is in any kind of trouble or should even be in any trouble.
Comintern wrote:
Isnt BF a NewZealand Based company? I would take it that the country has no laws against these symbols and certainly not selling them! Purchasing them in the US is not against any laws. Now, if you buy them in Germany and display them then yes, apparently you are violating laws there, as well as if you did it in "several other European Nations". However, just because its illegal there, doesnt mean that BF is in any kind of trouble or should even be in any trouble.
I'm sure a sale interdiction in European countries would greatly benefit BF's business...
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm ashamed to be seen with my miniatures in public, lest I be ridiculed!
As for the whole Swastike/Hammer stickle thing, it boils down to a freedom of expression/speech issue.
Do we really want a situation where certain symbols are put on a pedestal or hidden away, lest people find them?
I did find the Germany situation strange. You sometimes get the impression that the powers that be think if people see a swastika in public they'll suddenly decide to turn Nazi.
That's a simplistic attitude that treats free thinking adults like children, and one I've always been against.
As for the skull symbol, it has it's roots in the Prussian army and like many things, just becuase it was perverted by the Nazis doesn't mean it should be condemned for all eternity.
I mean, where do you draw the line: crucifix, cresent moon? coca cola or macdonals's arches. Think of how many people have been killed by heart disease and diabetes.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As for the whole Swastike/Hammer stickle thing, it boils down to a freedom of expression/speech issue.
Absolutely. And I reserve the right to call a guy with a Che shirt, or a hammer and sickle shirt, or a Mao hat with red star, or a swastika proudly displayed a nasty hate-filled scumbag. My freedom of speech counts too.
mwnciboo wrote:Thanks for the support infinite_array, it is indeed a sincere post and not for trolling. Its interesting to see how many people will do what they like, just because they are free to do so. Just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea. Freedom of expression without responsibility or sensitivity is a recipe that is exploited by extremist groups everywhere. Being Polite and civil, is about curbing your tongue and being sensitive to others interests and cultures.
I thnk this sums it up right here; I believe George Washington was mentioned as saying that their is such a thing as "too much freedom" as it can lead to anarchism or violence without a stable society.
Accountability and consideration are probably the by-words needed here in these kind of situations; in America, you're free to express yourself however you want as long as your expressions do not harm or obstruct others, however, those same expressions can lead to severe repercussions.
However, like you have mentioned mwnciboo, common sense, sensitivity and considerations is needed....after all, just because I have the freedom to do something crazy like waving around nazi-flags or whatever controversial symbol of the day is, doesn't mean I should.
Very good point that I think others should consider regardless of nationality......
Note how the official German Government response to the situation is moderately phrased. More of a polite suggestion. They advise that the item not be openly display, because it might be an issue.
"You may find that in certain circumstances some people might find you are engaged in an illegal act." as opposed to "You will be imprisoned for a thousand years and probably shot as well." Now if the Germans themselves can handle the matter with such calm self-control, how is it that other people feel the need to get all ranty and sweary and "Nazi scum" about it? Its actually very unlikely that a wargamer with this patch is in fact "Nazi Scum" or anything of the sort, in exactly the same way that the guy with the Soviet Guards division badge is not a "commie bastard" or whatever.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Note how the official German Government response to the situation is moderately phrased. More of a polite suggestion. They advise that the item not be openly display, because it might be an issue.
"You may find that in certain circumstances some people might find you are engaged in an illegal act." as opposed to "You will be imprisoned for a thousand years and probably shot as well." Now if the Germans themselves can handle the matter with such calm self-control, how is it that other people feel the need to get all ranty and sweary and "Nazi scum" about it? Its actually very unlikely that a wargamer with this patch is in fact "Nazi Scum" or anything of the sort, in exactly the same way that the guy with the Soviet Guards division badge is not a "commie bastard" or whatever.
Consider it freedom of expression.
That works both ways. Folks can freely express their ability to look like they advocate scumbags, and I can freely express my opinion that this advocation makes them a scumbag. They can then freely express that I just don't understand their intent or whatever. I can can freely state what I think about it. A guy with a Black Panthers or a Klan shirt would draw a simiilar response from me.
Pretty simple concept. Their freedom will not infringe on mine. I don't threaten to imprison them for a thousand years or shoot them, but I can damn well let them know what I think. Why would that be an issue for anyone? Is it only freedom of expression when you are being offensive towards decent folks?
infinite_array wrote:I fully believe that at some point in the future the McDonald's Arches will become associated with mass genocides and pure evil.
hmmm...Not really genocide is it. Thinking logically, you are not forced to go and eat at McDonalds (i certainly don't) therefore I have free will, to eat there or not eat there. I don't remember Auswitz having an "opt out" clause, it was enforced unto all the undesirable elements of National Socialist society. McDonalds may however be evil
So now we are in a Freedom of expression debate over whether its right or not right to display these badges? Well, in Germany it isnt. As was pointed out, "Some other European" countries have the same fixtures in place. Because you know, It never happened or we dont like the grim reminder. Perhaps this was why the USA is the country with the National Holocaust museum.
In the US one has the freedom to wear these patches and others have the right to denounce those that wear them. This isnt a debate its a law...its the way things are. After all, is West Baptist Church and sling slurs are funerals I can at least put a Fallschirmjager patch on my army case and go tell you to frag yourself when you denounce me.
The Point is, BF sells these patches, they are not against any law I know of in NZ and certainly not in the US. If some places in Europe have a hard time with History then thats their problem and at this point I dont think its in Poor Tastes. Unless of course, Neo-Nazis start buying them and using them for their own political agendas.
My major concern here, is that the primary Defence of wearing such symbols is that it infringes Free speech.
Free Speech, the idea I can believe some one is inferior to me, based on the colour of their skin, and call them derogatory names in public? You mean I can say what I like when I like, because I like in Public?
But hold on, What about the KKK? Are they just exercising free speech? A more modern take would be "Mosques Preaching Anti American- hate in downtown New York". Is this acceptable? What about the outright denunciation of your entire political system as wrong, that it should be replaced by a Theocracy and the introduction of Sharia Law? Would the FBI stand idly by, whilst this was preached as the IMAN is entitled to free Speech? I would suggest not.
To me free Speech is a false flag. It is the ultimate falsehood. Free speech within the bounds of the Law is probably the most accurate term. You are beholden to defamation of Character, Liable, what about threats, are these not free speech? Free of expression is a very ambigious term. Equally in the UK, swearing excessively at a Police Officer, will result in warning, if you carry on you will arrested on Public Order Offences.
Some interesting philosophical points come out if you read up on the following.
Joel Feinberg's Offense Principle
Democratic Citizenry and Pornography (yes Porn changed the world, but not in the way you would imagine)
Democratic Citizenship and Hate Speech
Paternalistic Justifcation of Limited Speech
'Free speech' allows you to say what you want, yes. But then you need to consider what laws and cultural taboos exist where you're deciding to use your 'free speech'.
So, the KKK burning crosses out front of people's houses? Bad.
Wearing an SS-rune tshirt at a Neo-nazi gathering? Bad.
But putting the same rune on your army case, because that's the unit you've decided to run with, either because you like their list/playstyle or their combat history? Not bad.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Note how the official German Government response to the situation is moderately phrased. More of a polite suggestion. They advise that the item not be openly display, because it might be an issue.
"You may find that in certain circumstances some people might find you are engaged in an illegal act." as opposed to "You will be imprisoned for a thousand years and probably shot as well." Now if the Germans themselves can handle the matter with such calm self-control, how is it that other people feel the need to get all ranty and sweary and "Nazi scum" about it? Its actually very unlikely that a wargamer with this patch is in fact "Nazi Scum" or anything of the sort, in exactly the same way that the guy with the Soviet Guards division badge is not a "commie bastard" or whatever.
Consider it freedom of expression.
That works both ways. Folks can freely express their ability to look like they advocate scumbags, and I can freely express my opinion that this advocation makes them a scumbag. They can then freely express that I just don't understand their intent or whatever. I can can freely state what I think about it. A guy with a Black Panthers or a Klan shirt would draw a simiilar response from me.
Pretty simple concept. Their freedom will not infringe on mine. I don't threaten to imprison them for a thousand years or shoot them, but I can damn well let them know what I think. Why would that be an issue for anyone? Is it only freedom of expression when you are being offensive towards decent folks?
I was mostly commenting on the manner in which it is done. If Federal Germany can do it in a well-mannered and polite way, then individuals should be able to do it in a sensible and intelligent manner..rather than shouting "Nazi Scum" at someone who has done little more than display the icon of the unit he chooses to carry in that particular case. There is also the small matter of personal safety. After all, shouting "Nazi Scum" at actual Nazi scum is likely to end up in a fight, so one better be able to defend that comment with force before using it...unless of course the people in this thread only shout abuse at small youths who are only playing a game, and not REAL Nazi scum....
But putting the same rune on your army case, because that's the unit you've decided to run with, either because you like their list/playstyle or their combat history? Not bad.
Have Battlefront added a rule that in late war games they randomly shoot and hang German soldiers and civilians for being defeatists when they retreat?
So now we are in a Freedom of expression debate over whether its right or not right to display these badges?
Really?
The Point is, BF sells these patches, they are not against any law I know of in NZ and certainly not in the US. If some places in Europe have a hard time with History then thats their problem and at this point I dont think its in Poor Tastes. Unless of course, Neo-Nazis start buying them and using them for their own political agendas.
Might I suggest you are subverting the issue of whom is having a hard time with history?
Balance wrote:My personal opinion is you should be allowed to use it, but don't be surprised if people think you're an asshat for doing so.
agreed. over here in 'Merica most people can't even point out Germany on an unmarked map, let alone point out the symbol of a particular force from WWII. but i wouldn't be upset if i happened to have it on a case(i wouldn't personally, but what-ifs are fun) and someone called me out. at least until i told them to chill out because it was just model soldiers for a game.
(typically its an american who starts these topics), flags will be flags. We wont be able to stop people from wearing and showing what they want. All we have to do as normal human beings is ignore it. I know it may be hard to some times. But if you just walk away and think about something else, no problems will happen. What we have to remember is this happened almost happened 75 years ago, and a lot of the symbols and flags and etc are irrelevant to these days. Battlefront was simply putting those patches there for the spirit of the game. I see people paint little SS Swastika arm bans on their little soldiers, maybe I should complain...naaa...like I said...for the spirit of the game
As a Chinese American, I harbor no ill feelings towards Japanese, who force my grandparents to flee from China nor Chinese Communist. While nothing has been done personally to me, there can be arguments on why I feel I have been slighted. I am not offended by the Japanese flag of war nor the Communist flag. I am offended by those who embelish the iconography. I won't hold anything personally against the Japanese who attacked pearl harbor, but I expect the japanese who committed war crimes to apologize and atone. If we want to heal the wounds of the past, we must remove the power from the icons of old and the people who wield the icons as weapons.
That's atleast my opinion.
@ Rougeyopants - Thats the key point though. The spirit of the game, we know what that is because we part take in this. A member of the public generally (Gamers not making up a large percentage of the population) will not think of Wargaming when they see such a Symbol. They see it for what it is, or what it represents. This is not about democracy or freedom of speech, this entire thread I started is about perception or rather public perception.
We have seen the terrible events in Norway over the weekend. Norway is a dyed in the wool democracy, even they today denied the defendant the chance of a public audience at his preliminary hearing. Thus denying (quite rightly in my opinion) a chance for him to vent about his extreme views under a banner of free speech.
Like I have posted several times, freedom of speech is non-existent. It is amazingly immature and naive to spout free speech because it does not reflect any society and I will repeat this for emphasis, any society on earth. It is Freedom of Speech within the bounds of the Law, oh and this can be modified by a Judge as required or befits the case.
Symbology like the SS ones would be a poor reflection of your judgement if you wore it in public. I remember the outrage of Prince Harry dressing up as a Nazi a few years back, and the public backlash over that.
I seem to recall an "Allo Allo" party where an MP was lambasted for dressing as a German officer..despite the obvious links to the comedy series "Allo Allo", which ran on BBC tv longer than the war itself, was damned funny, and ridiculed the Reich extensively. Some people will complain about anything...Doesn't have to be as obvious as an SS emblem to get complaints.
Watched an interesting programme yesterday on Discovery about the KKK. It would seem that there is a bit of a falling out within their ranks as even the traditional KKK find the swastika offensive, go figure..............
The American Civil War (1861–1865) was a civil war in the United States of America. Eleven Southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America, also known as "the Confederacy". Led by Jefferson Davis, the Confederacy fought for its independence from the United States. The U.S. federal government was supported by twenty mostly-Northern free states in which slavery already had been abolished, and by five slave states that became known as the border states. These twenty-five states, referred to as the Union, had a much larger base of population and industry than the South. After four years of bloody, devastating warfare (mostly within the Southern states), the Confederacy surrendered and slavery was outlawed everywhere in the nation. The restoration of the Union, and the Reconstruction Era that followed, dealt with issues that remained unresolved for generations.
Is this wrong?
I have a BA in history, has historian Wikipedia "is not a primary nor a secondary sources of information" Slavery would have eneded on its own, because of the invention of the Cotton Gin. Slavery was a form of "Cheap Labor" and it still exisit today, the real fight was outlawing segregation in the early 60's and 70's.
Well, Wikipedia is properly sourced at the bottom of the article plus it is a nice succinct summary, we could debate it endlessly but it actually happened. I cannot remember the name of the movement in the US made of Southern Poets, writers et al, that tried to re-write the defeat of the South as some great tragic saga, i think it was the lost cause or something. Slavery was abhorent, Britain was built on it certainly our merchantile expansion in the 16th, 17th & 18th Century benefited hugely. Furthermore, it is very different point, Labour (for low pay) as opposed to indentured servitude where you are possession of an individual not an individual in your own right. However that said in the world today Illegal immigrants are pulled in to the black and murky world of cheap labour and pseudo-slavery. A very sad state of affairs.
mwnciboo wrote:Well, Wikipedia is properly sourced at the bottom of the article plus it is a nice succinct summary, we could debate it endlessly but it actually happened. I cannot remember the name of the movement in the US made of Southern Poets, writers et al, that tried to re-write the defeat of the South as some great tragic saga, i think it was the lost cause or something. Slavery was abhorent, Britain was built on it certainly our merchantile expansion in the 16th, 17th & 18th Century benefited hugely. Furthermore, it is very different point, Labour (for low pay) as opposed to indentured servitude where you are possession of an individual not an individual in your own right. However that said in the world today Illegal immigrants are pulled in to the black and murky world of cheap labour and pseudo-slavery. A very sad state of affairs.
Wikipedia is open to anyone that can claim that they are "creditable", ture fact are found through JSTOR, articles that are pubilshed by true historian with reliable primary sources. Wikipedia only tells you the half truth and not the whole truth, to understand history and to see what truly happened you have to do your research. These types of sign are everywhere, you are using an Native American picture, colleges like FSU still refered themsleve as the Seminoles "which mean Runways or wild ones" f
Okay, we will leave the avatars out of the debate, because otherwise I will highlight your one is a fantasy fictional one from the future!
The problem with primary sources is that they are not objective nor reliable. Having served in the Military for nearly 10 years, the amount of 1st hand witness accounts that don't tally with the facts or the over-arching operations is quite staggering. I personally think that personal testimony as a primary source is so subjective that it cannot be used with any degree of confidence. I have experienced this "Slice of the pie effect" when on OPS, the reality of what is happening in your 2sq KM around you is not whats going on further a field neither does it give you a feel for overall operation. Humans naturally rise emotionally when their is something highly emotive going on. The 116th Regiment on D-Day is a good example, Omaha was not a great landing whereas most of the others went relatively straight forward. Many of the veterans of the 116th thought that D-day was failing based on their experience at their part of the invasion beachs.
I take your point on Wiki, but then if you read the reference sources you can interpret if you want to believe it or not. History is written by the Victors anyway!
Lets be reasonable...the reasons behind the ACW are way more deep and complicated than just "step away from the slaves", and a Wiki paragraph is not the war. Its not even a very accurate summary of it.
As the OP of this thread I am a Panzer Lehr Division Player. That said, I don't walk around with Nazi regalia or an SS Division Patch (I do have some SS Tigers..)
Adelynn, I am not sure where you are coming from, no one has accused anyone who doesn't play Allies as being a Nazi. This is a thread about the public perception of certain symbology and the ethical ramifications.
By the way I am not sure if this was brought up. I read this the other day. I agree it can be distasteful but we most remember this is a game and no one is trying to raisie a SS division.
But every one during the war did horrible things. Example
"Some of the boys had some prisoners line up. Machine guns were being set up. These boys were to be machine gunned and murdered. We were committing the same crimes we were now accusing the Japs and Germans of doing". US 11th Armored Division
Just a example of 1 US unit who did war crimes but wasn't punished because they where victors of the war.
I am not siding with the SS I am just saying in that war all sides committed war crimes. Ex Fire Bombing of Dresden like really wtf ? the war is pretty much over and they butcher a city that as no value.
Sorry to bring this back to life wanted to post my thoughts the other day but was busy.
Dont care what minor war crimes you want to drag up about the Allies, and my Grandfather committed a few, it all pales into comparison when compared to industrialised genocide.
The Waffen-SS will always be tainted by association with the Concentration Camps and that has to be accepted, not excused.
As for Dresden, there were plenty of reasons given for doing it...
"Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas. At one time well known for its china, Dresden has developed into an industrial city of first-class importance.... The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front... and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do."
Hindsights a great thing... But I imagine the last bit was a big consideration at the time. Maybe they didnt need tactically to bomb it, but they did it to prove a point to the Russians. Dont forget though, Dresden was an amalagamation of a series of events and particular conditions that made it as bad as it was. If they had realised the sheer scale of losses that would occur, and they couldnt really have known, then they may not have undertaken the raid. With hindsight its easy to criticise...
I am not agreeing with the SS, they are monsters. But this is a game so who cares if some one wants to play SS who should care if they want badges to rep. There Army.
The 2nd Atom bomb, Stalin's purging of his own people worse then Holocaust. Just saying.
How the heck can you say bombing Nagasaki is worse than the holocast?
One killed several million people just because the Nazis didn't like them.
The other, that you consider worse, targeted a port town important to the Japanese navy, killed less than 100,000 folks, and got the Japanese to surrender so we did not have to invade to end the war. An invasion would have killed a LOT more civilians (over 1 million by most estimates) and resulted in the deaths of a lot more US and allied troops.
How deranged is your thinking that you consider a legitimate attack to be worse than the systemic murdering of millions civilians towards no military purpose?
Aldramelech wrote:Well put Piers, I'm not going to add except to say this thread had died nicely and should have been left alone.
Should have been, yes.
As to ghostmaker's points - yes, Stalins' purges were horrific, but no one here have put the soviets on the 'pedestal of heroism'. And don't claim that the atomic bombs were worst than the Holocaust. Again, they were horrific, but the other plan - an actual invasion of Japan - had a calculated casualty number as high as 1 million dead, mostly Japanese.
ghostmaker wrote:
The 2nd Atom bomb, Stalin's purging of his own people worse then Holocaust. Just saying.
You're a muppet... Just saying.
The difference with any other genocide and the Holocaust, is the industrialised nature of the machinery of death.
Stalin's purges and enforced famine in the Ukraine are realistically estimated to have killed around 25-32 million people. Far in excess of the established Holocaust figure... But they didnt rationalise it and industrialised the killing. While the sheer number of Stalins victims was huge, added to by the immense losses sustained in WW2, they still lack the modernisation of genocide that the Germans brought to the event. We know how many they killed because they kept such good records, their counting machines came from IBM. They built factories of death that could process thousands a day to their deaths, even reconsituting the useful parts back into objects for use. They brought about an attempt at a mass extinction of various types of people by utilising technology and scientific advances. This sets it apart. While we generally see advances in science and technology as a force for good, here it was put to a despicable use.
To a degree you could argue that alot of useful scientific knowledge was gained from the camps. Alot of what we now know regarding genetics came directly from Nazi research who had an unlimited amount of live subjects to practice on. We know a great deal of how the human body reacts to extremmes of temperature and pressure from the grusome experiments they carried out on live inmates. We know what happens to a pregnant women if she tries to give birth with her legs tied together... all thanks to Nazi 'research'. If you want to argue something, try arguing that.
Stalin was as evil as Hitler, but he didnt really pick on one specific racial group. He would happily murder anyone. This seeming random nature, and the fact that he tended to murder just his own, seems to temper the fact that he killed millions. The Nazi machine of Death moved genocide to a whole new level.
To compare it to being a lesser event than Nagasaki just proves you know nothing of history.
Most current historical work sees the dropping of the two atomic bombs as actually saving Japanese civilian lives in the long run. Had Operation Olympic, the invasion of the Japanese homelands taken place, and it would had the atom bombs not been dropped then a rough estimate of 3-5 million civilian casualties would have occured. However, if the civilians had suffered the same rate of deaths as those on Oknianwa (who committed suicide en masse whenthe US invaded) that number could have been massively more and there is no reason to suspect that they would not have reacted in this way... It was hardwired into their culture. Add to that the huge losses in Japanses and US military personnel and you quickly see that the two bombs ,ay well have saved Japan from virtual annilation.
The second bomb, like Dresden, also served as a warning to the Soviets - It told them the US had at least two atom bombs... Which meant it wasnt a one-off and could build more. In the increasingly chilly atmosphere of Allied-Soviet relations in 1945, this was another key strategic consideration.
game is a game and whatever armies people field during the game, I am fine with it. However publicly wearing certain symbols (especially totenkopf- not only having war connection but being one of the most popular symbols of neo-nazis right now) will not have any of my understanding ,whatever the lame excuse is for that. Back where I come from if one of my mates would spot anybody wearing totenkokp or other SS regalia you would get your head kicked in and that person would only have himself to blame for it.
mwnciboo wrote:I would agree that the Confederate Flag is extremely disrespectful, it's not the Official Flag of the United States and ceased to be relevant the moment the Union Army defeated the confederate army.
As an American who both lives in Pennsylvania and has an interest in the American Civil War, I don't see the Confederate Flag as disrespectful, as long as it's being worn for the right reasons.
There's a stereotype when people think of the American Civil War - that it was fought to end slavery. This is, in fact, wrong. Slavery may have been a factor in the War, but it certainly wasn't a deciding factor when some states seceded and formed the Confederacy. The Confederate flag stands for States Rights over Federal Power - a conflict that was still ongoing just before the ACW, and which the ACW ended.
So, wearing the Confederate flag isn't disrespectful - unless you're some hillbilly redneck who's wearing one in order to show those 'other races' whose boss. Then you're in the wrong.
This is a huge, huge, huge common misunderstanding about the war. The deciding issue was indeed states rights, but it was unequivocally centered on a state's right to maintain the institution of slavery, which the southern states felt was under threat.
Slavery was the central factor of the war, and thats a fact.
The % of FOW players with an SS army that are actual Neo Nazis is probably about the same as the % of 40k Chaos players that are actual devil worshipers. It's a non issue in my book.
To the poor white enlisted soldiers in the confederate army the civil war wasn't about slavery. They had some very legitimate complaints, and there was a legal argument at the time if states had a right to secede from the union. The south could have peacefully succeeded from the union or won the civil war through English support if they emancipated the slaves before Lincoln did. Unfortunately for the poor white enlisted soldiers the southern aristocracy only cared about 1 issue, and that was keeping their slaves. The harsh truth is the brave confederate soldiers who died for what they thought was a noble cause died in vain as deceived pawns of the southern aristocracy, and that's a bitter pill the soldiers and their decedents have never wanted to swallow. The southern aristocracy told the poor white enlisted soldiers the war wasn't about slaves which was the easiest lie to sell because it was a lie that the people being lied to wanted to believe. The fine southern tradition of poor white folk believing the lies that they wanted to believe continues on to this day.
The manipulation of the lower classes of the southern states by the controlling aristocracy remains one of the saddest parts of the ACW. Though at the end of the day, it doesn't change the cause of the war.
Every war is a case of the "ruling elite" using their people like pawns - what a better world it would be if everyone used little lead soldiers instead?
As for the claim that if the South freed the slaves they would succeed is plain wrong . The southern economy (indeed a lot of the wealth in the US in the 1850's) was based on slave labour. Where were these newly freed slaves to go, who would pay/feed them. Certainly Lincoln did not want them - indeed he had plans to effectively deport them.
Regardless, FOW is still only a game, it is not real. You paid for your models so how you paint them up is your choice.
schadenfreude wrote:The % of FOW players with an SS army that are actual Neo Nazis is probably about the same as the % of 40k Chaos players that are actual devil worshipers. It's a non issue in my book.
But you are comparing something that actually existed (the SS) that conducted an evil event (the Holocaust, Industrialised murder) and 40k (fantasy realm that has never existed) with Devil Worshippers (Who may or may not exist).
So really your entire argument is flawed. It is very Real (certainly in Europe maybe not to our isolated American Cousins), go to Belsen or Triblinka or Auswitz. You will come out of those places with a very different opinion, I most certainly did. I saw some Royal Marines (who were on the same Royal Navy tour), some of the worlds crack light infantry crying like babes for the tragedy of the place. I don't see people weeping for 40k or devil worshippers. Please can we be objective and live in the real world.
wilycoyote wrote:Every war is a case of the "ruling elite" using their people like pawns - what a better world it would be if everyone used little lead soldiers instead?
Silly comment on many levels. Not every war sees folks being used as pawns. That is just not a supportable statement at all. And somethings are worth fighting, killing, and if need be dying for, and there are folks who understand that. The 'wouldn't it be nice' is just hippy crap ungrounded in the real world.
schadenfreude wrote:The % of FOW players with an SS army that are actual Neo Nazis is probably about the same as the % of 40k Chaos players that are actual devil worshipers. It's a non issue in my book.
But you are comparing something that actually existed (the SS) that conducted an evil event (the Holocaust, Industrialised murder) and 40k (fantasy realm that has never existed) with Devil Worshippers (Who may or may not exist).
So really your entire argument is flawed. It is very Real (certainly in Europe maybe not to our isolated American Cousins), go to Belsen or Triblinka or Auswitz. You will come out of those places with a very different opinion, I most certainly did. I saw some Royal Marines (who were on the same Royal Navy tour), some of the worlds crack light infantry crying like babes for the tragedy of the place. I don't see people weeping for 40k or devil worshippers. Please can we be objective and live in the real world.
You're confusing Devil Worship with the existence (or lack thereof) of the actual being they worship. Satanists and the like do actually exist in exactly the same way as Christians exist. The debate about existence is limited to their deities. Also, it matters not how horrific their activities are, the parallel still exists. Some people will link the ownership of an item or items with an act or group, whether the relationship exists or not. Most of the time (if not all of the time) the link is fatuous.
A slightly better parallel however would be D+D and Demon worship, a much more common believe in certain gullible parts of America.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: After the divergence to the War of Secession..how many ACW wargamers are racist white supremacists? Lets run with this.. how many ECW wargamers are Royalists?
Las wrote:
This is a huge, huge, huge common misunderstanding about the war. The deciding issue was indeed states rights, but it was unequivocally centered on a state's right to maintain the institution of slavery, which the southern states felt was under threat.
Slavery was the central factor of the war, and thats a fact.
And, after doing more research after becoming more and more interested in the period, I was in the wrong in my original post.
While most of my readings have been purely military, some do touch upon aspects of society before/after the war - and the issue of slavery was a central cause in the war, with the idea of 'state's rights' being used on both sides as a justifiable reason to secede/go to war.
Regardless, FOW is still only a game, it is not real. You paid for your models so how you paint them up is your choice.
Think you missed the point.
I dont think the discussion is about how you paint your toys, but whether its sensible/correct to have bags with Waffen-SS symbols on given the historical significance of those symbols to some.
I have a Florian Geyer force in 20mm... But I dont want to wear an SS T-Shirt when Im playing with them...
I agree with that. I dont know how anyone in their right mind could justify wearing an SS t-shirt in any context.
The iron cross is debatable, considering the anti-nazi/apolitical elements that existed in the Wehrmacht. And definitely arguable in the context of FoW, also considering its historical attachment to the German Army.
But I damn well wouldnt wear it to go get groceries. I know some areas of Montreal, Chicago and Boston where you could get killed for that.
Did IQ's drop sharply around here recently?
No one is saying people who play SS armies are Nazi's, no one is saying that someone who buy the unit patches for the bags is a Nazi.
What we are saying is that people who slap an SS symbol on a bag that they carry their toy soldiers in is being quite insensitive and runs the risk of offending people at best or at worst is moron with very little grasp of the actual history of their chosen "cool" army.
I really have had it with this now, it should not have been dragged up again and I will now ignore it in the hope that it drops off the board again.
This is the symbol used by the Bundeswehr today. While it has some differences to the iron crosses used during the second world war, it is still an iron cross. Iron crosses have a far larger history in German/Prussian military than just in WWII, it actually appeared first in 1813. I'm of the opinion that iron crosses in general are not more offensive than signets or badges of other nation's militaries. There may be an argument for not wearing/displaying iron crosses specifically used by German forces during WWII for already mentioned reasons, though, I haven't decided my personal standpoint on that yet.
What I'm trying to say, is, I guess: While the Swastika and Eagle say "Nazi Party" and the SS runes say "Schutzstaffel", the Iron Cross says "Germany" in a more general way and I think it can be argued that it is not necessarily a Nazi symbol, even during WWII time. Opinions on that?
"Silly comment on many levels. Not every war sees folks being used as pawns. That is just not a supportable statement at all. And somethings are worth fighting, killing, and if need be dying for, and there are folks who understand that. The 'wouldn't it be nice' is just hippy crap ungrounded in the real world. "---- CptJake so what about Iraq ? just saying.
What I really wanted to get at is it doesnt matter this is a game and people want to play with a SS division no one should care its not like they are leading them into the holocaust. People just need to use common sense when buying items for this game.
ghostmaker wrote: People just need to use common sense when buying items for this game.
This, but I would suggest it fly's in the face of common sense, morality and your own personal safety to walk around with SS patches on your Wargaming bag. We are all disgusted by groups like the Aryan Brotherhood, and they revell in covering themselves in Swastika's and Nazi symbology to show their political hues publicly and are quite rightly shunned due to their misguided, violent ways but most of all illegal ways.
ghostmaker wrote:"Silly comment on many levels. Not every war sees folks being used as pawns. That is just not a supportable statement at all. And somethings are worth fighting, killing, and if need be dying for, and there are folks who understand that. The 'wouldn't it be nice' is just hippy crap ungrounded in the real world. "---- CptJake so what about Iraq ? just saying.
What about it? Combat units that fought there had consistently high re-enlistment rates for a reason. Perhaps the fact that the all volunteer army was able to grow during the war indicates something too. "Troops as Pawns/Troops as Victims" is an old worn out meme that is not close to true regarding our all volunteer army.
Or are you implying soldiers are Too Stupid to know what they are volunteering for, and then re-enlisting for?
Just saying.
ghostmaker wrote: What I really wanted to get at is it doesnt matter this is a game and people want to play with a SS division no one should care its not like they are leading them into the holocaust. People just need to use common sense when buying items for this game.
Someone has to play the bad guys. I have no issue with that. Walking around town with SS symbology all over doesn't enhance the game, and may very well offend folks.
or this 
. I mean I know people who have lost their whole families in the Soviet death camps, and in the Vietnamese reprisals. My point is that no matter what patch they release, someone is going to take offense to it, no matter what it is, and lets not forget the that people do have a right to wear those symbols if they so desire. These patch are just pictures we give power to. i.e. show a swastika to a person who never heard of the nazis they won't understand what it means. At what point can someone be offensive.
Broken record...
