There were a lot of GK lists at Wargamescon and they seemed to do well. Anytime Hank Edley does well in a tournament there has to be more than meets the eye. In the top spots I did not see purifier/dread spam, though I could have missed it. There seemed to be different lists using Stormravens for speedy delivery or Terminators in bolstered ruins with shrouding (2+ armor and 2+ cover). One thing for sure it seemed the techmarine with grenades was standard in each list. Once again I could have been missed one.

I am wondering if these players have hit upon a new power in the codex and metagame or can their success be attributed to the newness of the codex and a lack of familiarity with the units.

Quite possibly a bit of both.

There is a lot of room for variation whether it's henchmen spam, purifier spam, paladins, jump lists or a whole host of other things. It's going to take a while for all-comers lists to successfully shift and take into account these new builds. My thoughts anyway.

Its just a good codex. Many different ways to play them and filled with solid units and options while not being overpowered. I'm highly doubtful that a standard build will pop up.

I think its a bit of both, they're reasonably powerful, and new, and the GK do have a unique appeal to them.

Anytime Hank Edley does well in a tournament there has to be more than meets the eye.

Darth,

If anyone would know it would be you since a few of those wins back in the day came at your expense.

I was doing my best to channel my 2000-2006 40K-Fu at WarGamesCon. Follow the W.W.F.D principle,.. Appears it was not lost, only suppressed, and now once again unleashed and on display for another generation. Now just got to get Chua and Weeks back on the circuit and it will be like a sequel to Hot Tub Time Machine.

- Hank

GK codex IS a good codex. All of their units are "good" but none of them except for purifiers and all vehicles raise an eyebrow for overpowered.
Now, if everything in a codex is above average good and certain units are a super bargain, then what does that make the codex?

Food for thought.

I personally think more codices should be written like the GK one.

Imagine a 40K universe where all codices have powerful yet balanced units throughout all of the FOC slots. Imagine a large range of variation that could be competitive regardless of what you take because there is no junk, just different capabilities and different styles of play.

The GK codex appears overpowered because it lacks something most other codices have...a bad choice/several bad choices (IMHO).

I think their are some egregiously imbalanced things in the GK codex.

Why does the plasma funnel shut off burst weapons?
Why do Grey Knights have Techmarines?
Why does Psybolt amo work on things that aren't psykers and demons?
Why do all the troops cause ALL deep strike nearby to misshap completely?

These things don't match the narrative at all, and are creating imbalances in the game when they are used out of context. I wouldn't want to play a GK army that digs in ruins and gets 2++ saves with terminators? That's not what GKs are suppose to do. Psybolt amo is suppose to be for use against psykers and demons, the sudden prevalence of Quadracannon cybolt dreads is egregiously out of character for the army. Nemesis weapons are suppose to be effective versus psykers and demons, not general power weapons, ironically their not any better versus demons... etc.

Those kinds of things make the codex behave in ways during play that don't match the narrative or intent of the army. They are clearly oversights and show the typical GW lack of play testing, and general dis-respect for their own canon and general apathy toward the effect of overgeneralized sweeping rules.

It's a bad codex IMO, it's overpowered. I'm sure it sells well. Typical.

As a Tau player, who is friends with lots of other Tau players, I can honestly say that none of us care about the Plasma Syphon/Funnel thing. Its a situational piece of gear, and like all other situational gear, no one puts it in all-comers lists. And it's range is really short too.

As for the other stuff, most real complaints I hear about the army as a whole are fluff related, which to me doesn't really matter anymore, at least not since Space Wolves broke that mold years ago.

I understand that people really want all gear to fit the narrative, but when they do that then you end up with a Codex where a huge chunk of the wargear is never used, ever, because its too situational. I'm also a Sisters player, see the Wargear section of that Dex for several pages of examples of fluffy gear that no one ever uses.

As it is in the GK dex one of the things I saw during my first read through were pieces of gear/psykic powers/characters that I knew would never make it into any general lists, because they were only useful against a narrow field of targets (Daemons, psykers). Playing against Tau, Orks, Dark Eldar? (not exactly rare armies), well that stuff you paid points for is worthless. As a result anyone that plays games in a non-Tailoring atmosphere is not going to take that stuff. I don't understand why they would put even more of that stuff into a new Dex.

Creeping Dementia wrote:...anyone that plays games in a non-Tailoring atmosphere is not going to take that stuff. I don't understand why they would put even more of that stuff into a new Dex.

Right that makes sense actually. Why use 'good vs. demons only stuff'

Allow me to try and explain from a broader point of view though. The perspective of situational wargear makes a lot more sense when considered outside of the tournament environment. Furthermore, with some discretion and playtesting I suspect both could happen, as in their could be no options that cost points that were good versus only demons and still be codex unique rules that have a point versus ALL comers, some of which would be worth points.

A suggestion would be, psybolt amo be a special rule for all grey knights 'bolter' type weapons and ads +1 to wound vs. demons, possessed vehicles and psykers and is an army wide rule. There, done, this doesn't cost more points, doesnt handicapo the codex versus other armies, doesn't create any worthless wargear options that never get used, eliminates pages of psybolt amo rules, doesn't create an advantage vs nonliving vehicle units, and decreases recordkeeping while staying true to the narrative and may have a few fluffy side effects like versus Eldar and other psykers etc.

What we got instead was a bad rule, that made things like quadracannon dreads a new standard and more record keeping. See what I mean?

The plasma deal is the same way, so is the deep striking thing, why should that affect anything other than units arriving by demonic assault? It shouldn't, or if it does, it should be an upgrade to make it universal.

Anti demon powers suddenly became anti everyone powers, that's why it's a bad codex.

In response to the original question:

The GK codex is not overpowered. I think the newness of it scares people as they have not had quite enough time to come up with super effective counters for them yet. The only reason I can't consider the dex overpowered is because of the Jy2 report he just completed. A rather standard GK list got trounced by a Tau army. The newest dex was destroyed by the oldest dex. Now this is obviously an isolated incident, but I think it should at least say something to the supposed imbalance of the codex.

Its an army with different rules and advantages that when taken in the context of the greater viewpoint of all the codecies are rather tame.

I totally understand where you're coming from Augustus, but from my perspective things like that doesn't make a bad codex. It really just depends on why you play the game. Personally, I like the game, and the painting/modelling. I don't really get into the fluff much at all, and I avoid the '40k Background' forum here like its carrying the Bubonic Plague.

In my mind, the name of the upgrade is '+1Strength to this units shooting', Psybolt is just the codeword for it, so it doesn't really bother me. The same thing is true for me with the Deep Strike mishap stuff, the fact that they have Techmarines, etc, its just rules they have. It is a little annoying that Rifledreads are such a good no-brainer option in the Dex, but even that doesn't make it a bad Codex. The fact that I can run my 'no Vehicle' pure GK list and have it work well, while completely ignoring some obvious builds (Crowe/Coteaz/Dreads), is a sign that its a good Codex. Allowing multiple competitive builds IMO is a key to judging whether a Dex is 'good'. Also, the fact that its not extraordinarily difficult to beat a GK army with my other armies (Tau/Sisters) tells me that its not inherently overpowered, also a sign that its a good Dex.

Fluff wise? The Dex may be bad/horrible/abysmal, but I have no idea, thats not even on the radar for me.
Gameplay wise? Its not rolling over all other competitive armies easily, there are lots of different ways to play them, and do well at most point levels. That to me makes it a good Codex in the gameplay category.

Creeping Dementia wrote:...multiple competitive builds IMO is a key to judging whether a Dex is 'good'....

I agree by that criteria.

I just wanted to say that some of the things the grey knights do now aren't very grey knight ish. I suppose that doesn't necessarily matter.

I'm a player with 20 years history in the game, so I see things through colored glasses sometimes. What things are now is what they are, I suppose one can't expect them to always stay the same. Thanks for making points with me.

I agree that the whole Psyflemen thing is pretty silly (and way overestimated --- plain old psycannon dreads are pretty darn good!).

But it wasn't a mistake. GW did it wholly on purpose, to try cut down on rhino spam. Completely wrong way to solve the problem, but whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Creeping Dementia wrote:I totally understand where you're coming from Augustus, but from my perspective things like that doesn't make a bad codex. It really just depends on why you play the game. Personally, I like the game, and the painting/modelling. I don't really get into the fluff much at all, and I avoid the '40k Background' forum here like its carrying the Bubonic Plague.

In my mind, the name of the upgrade is '+1Strength to this units shooting', Psybolt is just the codeword for it, so it doesn't really bother me. The same thing is true for me with the Deep Strike mishap stuff, the fact that they have Techmarines, etc, its just rules they have. It is a little annoying that Rifledreads are such a good no-brainer option in the Dex, but even that doesn't make it a bad Codex. The fact that I can run my 'no Vehicle' pure GK list and have it work well, while completely ignoring some obvious builds (Crowe/Coteaz/Dreads), is a sign that its a good Codex. Allowing multiple competitive builds IMO is a key to judging whether a Dex is 'good'. Also, the fact that its not extraordinarily difficult to beat a GK army with my other armies (Tau/Sisters) tells me that its not inherently overpowered, also a sign that its a good Dex.

Fluff wise? The Dex may be bad/horrible/abysmal, but I have no idea, thats not even on the radar for me.
Gameplay wise? Its not rolling over all other competitive armies easily, there are lots of different ways to play them, and do well at most point levels. That to me makes it a good Codex in the gameplay category.

Crowe sucks, he's a honey pot for suckers, mark my words. The fact that purifier spam wasn't prevalent among the top lists, according to OP, I see as vindication on that. Anyone know where I can get some data on that?

But yes, there are many, many viable builds for GK (I have one that did pretty darn well for me here, http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/06/stormraven-and-land-raider-grey-knight-list-the-army-to-dominate-boston-brawlcon/)

I otherwise agree with almost everything you said. Except, in my old age, I do care at least a little about the fluff. In my opinion, the fluff is pretty awesome, if more than a little overblown, but it's not really reflected in the stat lines.

Prometheus,

I love using a stormraven and land raider together in my blood angel list. It's a great 1-2 punch and maybe you could do that with your GK's, but in another way. I read through your posts about the Boston Brawl and have you considered taking 2 stormravens and no land raider? I'd change the assault dread for a 2nd rifleman dread. As you said the assault dread underperformed since it wasn't venerable so save 5pts and make it a shooty dread with range. In the second stormraven you could flesh out the terminators or you could put 10 purifiers in there and grand strategy can make them scoring when needed.

gpfunk wrote:In response to the original question:

The GK codex is not overpowered. I think the newness of it scares people as they have not had quite enough time to come up with super effective counters for them yet. The only reason I can't consider the dex overpowered is because of the Jy2 report he just completed. A rather standard GK list got trounced by a Tau army. The newest dex was destroyed by the oldest dex. Now this is obviously an isolated incident, but I think it should at least say something to the supposed imbalance of the codex.

Its an army with different rules and advantages that when taken in the context of the greater viewpoint of all the codecies are rather tame.

your right every dex is placed as a massive overpowered juggernaut kindof like the idea of security as we create the threats by our views like tyrnaids was pegged to destroy and actually was very reasonanble.

Creeping Dementia wrote:As a Tau player, who is friends with lots of other Tau players, I can honestly say that none of us care about the Plasma Syphon/Funnel thing. Its a situational piece of gear, and like all other situational gear, no one puts it in all-comers lists. And it's range is really short too.

As for the other stuff, most real complaints I hear about the army as a whole are fluff related, which to me doesn't really matter anymore, at least not since Space Wolves broke that mold years ago.

I understand that people really want all gear to fit the narrative, but when they do that then you end up with a Codex where a huge chunk of the wargear is never used, ever, because its too situational. I'm also a Sisters player, see the Wargear section of that Dex for several pages of examples of fluffy gear that no one ever uses.

As it is in the GK dex one of the things I saw during my first read through were pieces of gear/psykic powers/characters that I knew would never make it into any general lists, because they were only useful against a narrow field of targets (Daemons, psykers). Playing against Tau, Orks, Dark Eldar? (not exactly rare armies), well that stuff you paid points for is worthless. As a result anyone that plays games in a non-Tailoring atmosphere is not going to take that stuff. I don't understand why they would put even more of that stuff into a new Dex.

People take the xenos inquisitor for the grenades, and even after the grenades a xenos inquisitor is still plenty cheap with plenty of room for a plasma siphon. The grenades work great against any army except gunlines such as ig or tau, in which case the xenos inquisitor is worthless without a plasma siphon. I would expect to see a siphon in any all comers list that already includes a xenos inquisitor. That being said you won't see one often because gk hq slots are crazy competitive with a lot of good options, and if you do see one as you said the range is short.

DarthDiggler wrote:Prometheus,

I love using a stormraven and land raider together in my blood angel list. It's a great 1-2 punch and maybe you could do that with your GK's, but in another way. I read through your posts about the Boston Brawl and have you considered taking 2 stormravens and no land raider? I'd change the assault dread for a 2nd rifleman dread. As you said the assault dread underperformed since it wasn't venerable so save 5pts and make it a shooty dread with range. In the second stormraven you could flesh out the terminators or you could put 10 purifiers in there and grand strategy can make them scoring when needed.

I'm really very, very happy with that list I linked to, and it worked well. The only change I've made in the list is to shift some points and add psycannon to the GKT squad. (without one, they feel a little useless when the LR does bite it)

I hate using duplicates of the same unit, if I can help it. "Redundancy" does not mean duplication. If you can find two different units to accomplish much the same task (such as SR and LR) that is awesome because variety gives you options.

I'm going to keep using the Land Raider because it's firepower is awesome, and it's very, very hard to stop. (There were some very bad dice with during Brawlcon, but that happens.).

No, I'm never going to use two psyflemen, eww. I'm surprised I'm using the one. To be honest, it's much more there to deal with DE raiders than rhinos. Don't have trouble with rhinos, psycannons work.

I'm absolutely convinced the GK codex is overpowered and agree it was done the wrong way.

In the last codex, the designers made a note. GK had several special anti-demon abilities that made them VERY effective at killing demons, but did nothing vs other armies. Rather than make them pay points for them, they just gave daemons the sustained assault rule, where their troops and beast units kept coming back after getting killed - albeit from the table edge, not deepstrike.

They should have done that again. Instead they made the weapons usable against everyone, and then STILL didn't make them pay the points for it.

Marine: Marine statline, bolter. 16 points.
Grey Knight: Marine statline, STORMbolter [way better, gives way more tactical options, can be upgraded to be able to glance rhinos and penetrate AV10 skimmers], anti-psychic leadership debuff, psychic power to increase strength, psychic power to destroy/delay/redirect deepstrike, anti-psyker grenades, and a POWER WEAPON, which is actually a force weapon once using another psychic power, but it's actually BETTER than a force weapon because it can insta-kill demons, too- activated or not - if they fail a ld test.
AND they get preferred enemy: demons, which includes things with the demon rule and other things outside the demons codex like defilers, obliterators, the avatar, and mandrakes.
....20 points.

So which....which of those abilities is worth 4 points, anyway? Can I buy my chaos marines power weapons for 4 points a model? What about the chosen? What about.....anything? Can an assault marine in a space marine army buy a power weapon for 4 points? Can I buy a psychic power that makes me S5 for 4 points? Can I get some psychic defense for any model in any army for just 4 points?

FOUR. POINTS. It's ridiculous. And have you seen what some basic death cult assassins do to marines? Take a bunch of squads consisting of 3 meltaguns and some deathcult assassins and drive around in chimeras. Go ahead, charge me. See what happens.

Then, for TEN points, you upgrade to a psycannon. Now I know for a fact if anyone allowed basic space marines to take an assault cannon for 10 points, people would complain. People would throw a FIT. So now we'll give them the same thing, but it's a point of strength higher and can fire on the move with half the number of shots.

....WHAT?

And we'll let their jump troopers take it too.

.....WHAT?!

And let's have a look at the incinerator purgation squad. But first, let's look at the CSM havoc squad outfitted the same way.

5 havocs, 4 flamers, rhino - 130 points. Deadly vs hordes. Decent vs marines, might cause a few wounds. Wooo.

5 Purgation squad, 4 incinerators, rhino - 140 points.

10 points more. Those 4 flamers are S6, not S4. They're AP4, not Ap5. The unit has ATSKNF. The unit has hammerhand. The unit has "you're behind a solid wall? I'll shoot anyway" psychic power. Preferred enemy: demons. Psych-out grenades. Their sergeant has a force weapon and a stormbolter, so he can instant-kill a hapless trygon that tries to charge the unit. Their rhino can ignore shaken and stunned results with a Ld 10 check.

Which of THOSE is worth 10 more points? It's not a problem of things in other codexes costing too much. I've never really had issue with the points costs of most chaos things, really. It's the crap like this that JUST. COSTS. TOO. LITTLE. and is way too good.

Augustus wrote:I just wanted to say that some of the things the grey knights do now aren't very grey knight ish. I suppose that doesn't necessarily matter.

I'm a player with 20 years history in the game, so I see things through colored glasses sometimes. What things are now is what they are, I suppose one can't expect them to always stay the same. Thanks for making points with me.

I know where you're coming from, Augustus. The codex seems to put a focus on stuff that clashes with the established vision of GKs. That's one of the things I give Phil K. credit for with DE...what's there now in terms of fluff, units and overall feel is a lot of what was there before, just...better.

But like you said, things change...and sometimes a lot with GW. GKs don't really fit the vision I had, but then I'm an opinion of one. With time I'll embrace Psyfleman dreads, etc as being a "GK thing." Probably helps that I'm a Tyranid player who's seen his army go through a codex progression of fast and deadly => slow hordey steamroller => Carnifex cavalcade => whatever it is today. *shrug*

@Augustus -

The biggest problem, from a Game Design point of view, in developing Grey Knights is that they're inherently supposed to be an 'anti-daemon' force.

The reason GK have all these tools that are great against the whole field is because in a point-based game, you simply cannot have one faction that is anti another faction without creating a huge imbalance for that anti-faction.

Grey Knights aren't always going to face daemons, and if you make the assumption that Daemons are priced appropriately, that leads to the following conundrum;

If you give them anti-daemon tools, that aren't good against everyone else, do you make them free, or do you make them pay for them?

If they have to pay for them, for what they're actually worth against daemons, you end up with a force that is fairly priced when fighting daemons, but that pays too many points for advantages that don't come into play against other codexes.

If you make the anti-daemon stuff 'free', you end up with a codex that is fairly priced against the rest of the field, and underpriced against daemons.

There is no good solution to this question, except, giving them tools that are good against daemon's special rules, but that are also good against everyone else. A good example of this is psybolt ammo. Daemon saves are invulnerable, so giving them better AP or something doesn't mean much, but giving them +1S means more wounds, and more saves. Volume of fire is what whittles down daemons. It also impacts everyone else though.

Why not give daemons sustained assault vs gk then, like before?
Eh? Eh?

Because their new design philosophy is that every book should stand as much on its own as possible. So adding new rules to one player's army based on the other player's army would fall outside that concept.

Henchman are the biggest issue. Coteaz is under priced by about 50 points. Add the ability to take a scoring unit of 3 Acolytes in a st 6 heavy bolter Razor that can ignore shaken and stunned for only 62 points total is out of control. The customizability of those units leads to brokenness. Death Cult Assassins, melta spam, crusaders to soak wounds, storm bolter Acolytes with Jokearo buffs, and all of this aided by IC's who make them even better.

Why even bother with Crowe when you can take a Libby, Coteaz, henchman, psyfleman, and pepper in some Purifiers as elites?

The over the top stuff besides henchman/Coteaz:

1. Fortitude- this is a game changer and really hurts anyone relying on stun lock to deal with multiple targets (which GK can do very well). I wouldn't have a problem with it's existence if it cost more than a whopping 5 points....

2. Psycannons- these are just incredible for 10 points. I just think that's too low, especially for units like Purifiers who can easily spam them. Not as bad on Strike squads but still very good.

3. Psyfleman- Again, just too few points for the immense boost they get.

4. Cleansing Flame- against hoards this is a little much. It would be one thing if it was GK's only answer to them...

5. Shrouding- 3+ cover saves are way too good, especially when it's easy to give multiple vehicles this buff.


The reasons GK haven't assumed the top spot:

1. Newness
2. Noob traps

GK are new and haven't been fully figured out yet, that's a given. However, the reason most players will suck with them is that there are tons of ways to waste points and make GK units overcosted. These are the noob traps. Synergy is especially effective in this book and players who don't take it into account will make especially bad lists. Still, good players who min max and build nasty lists will have take all comers potential that is almost unmatched.

gorgon wrote:I know where you're coming from, Augustus....Tyranid player who's seen his army go through a codex progression of fast and deadly => slow hordey steamroller => Carnifex cavalcade => whatever it is today. *shrug*

Hey thanks, makes me feel a little less old and alone.

I hear you on the Tyranid codex I have the same reaction there, I recall when it was suppose to be a very horde army and what a change the carnifex thing was, and now, I wouldn't even play the little bugs, not witht he combo melee morale fearless rules, it just gets them all (the biug ones too) killed when they fight together.

Ah well.

Some of the fun of the game is adapting to the dynamic parts as thihngs change, and new lists are exciting. I'll have to try and see it that way more. But the stodgy part of me doesn't want to when I see techmarine grey knights in ruins and 3x Psiflemen dreads...

EDITS:

gorgon wrote:That's one of the things I give Phil K. credit for with DE...what's there now in terms of fluff, units and overall feel is a lot of what was there before, just...better.

Exactly, the dark eldar didn't suddenly change into a static shooting army with big tanks and heavy armor, they kept their feel, in fact I think they were elegantly 5th editionized to coin a phrase. I'm not getting the same sense of craft and elegance from the Grey Knights dex at all.

Spellbound wrote:.....WHAT?!

IN so few words, well said Spellbound. I find my regular friend and I in combat often, he has a chaos army and on a point for point base his troopers are so outclassed compared to mine when I play my 5th ed codex aarmies (Blood Angels and Space Wolves) against him, even the vanilla marines do pretty well, (free weapon options for full size squads), he would love something like that. I guess this is just codex creep all over again. The Chaos dex needs some help doesn't it?

Redbeard wrote:Because their new design philosophy is that every book should stand as much on its own as possible. So adding new rules to one player's army based on the other player's army would fall outside that concept.

Maybe so, but what they did with GK is much worse. If you assume that a) GK are costed fairly to fight other codices than Daemons, and b) Daemons are costed fairly to fight other codices than GK, then what is the result of GK having extra awesome powers and special rules against Daemons, which they do? Daemons bite it against GK. If GW wanted to give GK the flavor benefits of special rules which make them even nastier against Daemons, then they had to give daemon armies something to compensate in those games, or throw balance in that matchup right out the window. And we see which option they chose, sadly.

---------

All of the above, of course, assuming that you think GK are costed fairly vs. other codices. Which I'm not entirely convinced of, even if I'm not at Spellbound-levels of incredulity.

JGrand wrote:Henchman are the biggest issue. Coteaz is under priced by about 50 points. Add the ability to take a scoring unit of 3 Acolytes in a st 6 heavy bolter Razor that can ignore shaken and stunned for only 62 points total is out of control. The customizability of those units leads to brokenness. Death Cult Assassins, melta spam, crusaders to soak wounds, storm bolter Acolytes with Jokearo buffs, and all of this aided by IC's who make them even better.

Why even bother with Crowe when you can take a Libby, Coteaz, henchman, psyfleman, and pepper in some Purifiers as elites?

The over the top stuff besides henchman/Coteaz:

1. Fortitude- this is a game changer and really hurts anyone relying on stun lock to deal with multiple targets (which GK can do very well). I wouldn't have a problem with it's existence if it cost more than a whopping 5 points....

2. Psycannons- these are just incredible for 10 points. I just think that's too low, especially for units like Purifiers who can easily spam them. Not as bad on Strike squads but still very good.

3. Psyfleman- Again, just too few points for the immense boost they get.

4. Cleansing Flame- against hoards this is a little much. It would be one thing if it was GK's only answer to them...

5. Shrouding- 3+ cover saves are way too good, especially when it's easy to give multiple vehicles this buff.


The reasons GK haven't assumed the top spot:

1. Newness
2. Noob traps

GK are new and haven't been fully figured out yet, that's a given. However, the reason most players will suck with them is that there are tons of ways to waste points and make GK units overcosted. These are the noob traps. Synergy is especially effective in this book and players who don't take it into account will make especially bad lists. Still, good players who min max and build nasty lists will have take all comers potential that is almost unmatched.

Reasons they have not made it to the top.

The ability to take a scoring unit of 3 Acolytes in a st 6 heavy bolter Razor that can ignore shaken and stunned for only 62 points total is 2 kill points for 3 GEQ and an AV11 vehicle. 1/3 games will be KP based, so in a 6 game tournament 4 victories + 2 losses= 4 ties + 2 wins= just above middle of the pack.

Customization of acolytes does not = brokenness. If there was 1 broken build everybody would be taking it, but there are multiple competitive builds. Are you saying every single build of henchmen is broken? If you have a beef against 1 particular build of henchmen make the case, but saying the customization is what breaks henchmen will only trap you into defending a straw man argument.

GK HQ units are absolutely uberlicious, but force org limits them to 2. They also get real expensive really fast, except the inquisitors.

Fortitude millage may vary. In a gun line henchmen army with razorspam versus IG or DE then Fortitude can be game winning. Against armies with psychic defense such as eldar, SW, or BA fortitude is of limited use and hardly the end of the world. Fortitude is only out of control against select armies with select builds.

Purifiers are psycannons are 36 points a pop, and they lose their power weapons. Still a great unit, but keep in mind that 10 point psycannon has hidden costs.

Psyfleman are an great deal, but it's the only long range option GK have besides BS3 monkeys.

Cleansing flame...purifiers are all around nasty. Purifier spam is a hard counter to cc hordes. Purifier spam is also likely to get eaten alive by very fast shooty armies such as IG or DE.

Shrouding is overrated.
Rhino pops smoke while shrouded for a 3+ cover=shoot a different target, and next turn it only has a 6+ cover save.
Rhino pops smoke while not shrouded for a 4+ cover save=shoot a different target, and next turn it has no cover save.
Purifiers in cover have a 3++ cover because of shrouding=shoot ap5 weapons at them an take chances with their 3+ armor, and shoot the AP3 or better weapons at units out in the open.
Purifiers in cover have a 4++ cover because they are in cover=shoot ap5 weapons at them an take chances with their 3+ armor, and shoot the AP3 or better weapons at units out in the open.
It's amazing how little shrouding does when you keep basic 40k tactics and target priorities in mind.

GK are a mean and nasty codex that is far better than any 4th ed codex, but you can say the same about almost every 5th ed codex. Six out of seven of other 5th ed books are still competitive against GK.

For those convinced grey knights are broken:
I used to think the same way but a few things become apparent after having played them/ seen them played. heres a few things i noticed:

First, and this is a big one- GK, with the the exception of purifiers, have ONE ATTACK at a mediocre WS and the same save as any other marine. if you charge them with a unit that will beat up marines they will most likely beat up GK too. you may be thinking what about hammer hand? Well if they use hammer hand they aren't using warp quake or their force weapons thus it behooves you to keep track of power usage.

As to the cheap weapon upgrades keep in mind that power armored marines must give up their wonderful force weapon in order to take a heavy weapon making them a liability in close combat. so you could also look at it as paying extra points to make them bad at combat. I would charge a purgation squad just as often as i would a devastator squad given the chance (which in case you're wondering is every time) As a side note spell bound in your example with the havocs they get to keep their bp & ccw on the guys with flamers; very hand for the following close combat especially considering the kind of unit you would be using 4 flamers on.

3. another thing to keep in mind is that alot of their cool toys have little to no effect on daemons. Think about it; all daemons have eternal warrior and most don't have an armor save so the GK might as well be using pointy sticks against daemons. even the daemonbane rule isnt that big of a deal since most multi-wound daemons are ld 10. Their aegis is completely pointless since daemons don't have psychic powers. their main bonus is preferred enemy but that doesn't guarantee a win in close combat.

Theres probably other points i could make but i am a horrendously slow typer so ill call it there

Remember that sustained assault was pretty worthless, since you had to move on from your own table edge if I remember right. Which generally meant you had slow melee demon units walking on the board on turn 2 or 3 and accomplishing little.

I'd say prefered enemy and hammerhand with halberds is quite dangerous, on top of stormbolters being quite dangerous against most demon units.

Mannahnin wrote:
Maybe so, but what they did with GK is much worse. If you assume that a) GK are costed fairly to fight other codices than Daemons, and b) Daemons are costed fairly to fight other codices than GK, then what is the result of GK having extra awesome powers and special rules against Daemons, which they do? Daemons bite it against GK. If GW wanted to give GK the flavor benefits of special rules which make them even nastier against Daemons, then they had to give daemon armies something to compensate in those games, or throw balance in that matchup right out the window. And we see which option they chose, sadly.

I agree. I've got 20,000 points of daemons painted and playable in just about any configuration, and I could use all of it and lose to a GK player with 1000 points and a good grasp of geometry. There is no good way to have a faction that is specifically anti another faction in a system where all-comer games need to be considered and that points are used to set up the armies.

I don;t think that there's "no good way", though. I think a better-considered version of what they had last time could well have worked. If Daemons did get some form of Sustained Assault, or Preferred Enemy, or SOMETHING in their games against GKs, it would have improved the situation. You just need to keep it relatively simple.

I'm not convinced GK are heads and shoulders above the rest. There are so many expensive units that once I make a list to cover all the bases I'm over by 150pts. Something has to give. GK also suffer from range envy. Their guns are outranged by most other lists.

One thing they have going good for them is the Stormraven + Shrouding combo can deliver an assault element across the table. However that assault element will be outnumbered something fierce and the combined unit will be 600-700pts.

I think the GK have new toys and tactics and in the end they will take their place near the top, but they will not jump ahead and outpace the field.

As for Daemons I think they will need to change to combat the GK. Blessing of the Blood God can be a back breaker vs. GK and their low model count list. A Khorne DP with iron hide, wings and bessing is something to fear vs. GK's. Warp Quake doesn't cover the board nearly as much because Paladins, Terminators, Purifiers and Dreads are eating up points.

Blessing of the Blood God can be a back b....oh wait Dark Excommunication, you lose blessing. So sorry!


And as for "just shoot something else if they give the rhino a 3+ cover" - that's.....eh? Ok? We're getting into player skill here but if they've put that rhino on the game-winning objective, it's kind of important that THAT rhino dies, not just any rhino.

Spamming little units of henchmen in S6 heavy bolter razorbacks a detriment in kill points? Not if the enemy is dead. Especially if now you have lots of 1-2 model units running around. Congrats you got kp for my tank. Wanna use your 200 points of marines to shoot my one guy? KP are KP but point-for-point you're wasting your firepower.

Strikes have 1 attack this is true.

10 strikes charge - 20 attacks.

Techmarine attaches to squad, rolls grenades, gets....something, I dunno. You're either doing nothing, re-rolling misses against the enemy, hitting automatically, or a portion of the enemy is attacking themselves instead of you. Or they're Ld 2 so if you win combat they're toast.

Rad grenades bring the enemy's toughness down by 1, you hammerhand for S5. Now you can't activate your force weapons! Who the hell cares they're 1 wound enemy infantry. 20 attacks 10 hit 2+ to wound, 8 die. Oh wait two had psycannons. Meh, whatever, only 7. They get their attacks back, sure. Let's assume it's an assault squad. 20 attacks back, 10 hit, 5 wound, 2 fail saves. Yeah that's not one-sided at all!

Ok, it's a monstrous creature. Let's assume it's not a psyker like a tyrant or tervigon or a daemon prince. 20 attacks, 10 hit, one of them should be a wound - activate force weapons instead of doing hammerhand, creature dead. That was easy!

Ok, daemon prince. It's I1 so you go first. 20 attacks, 10 hit, re-roll preferred enemy, 5 more hit for 15. It's down 1 toughness and you use hammerhand for a 3+ to wound. 10 out of 15 wound and you ignore the armour save. Make 10 5+ invul saves. Ok we'll say you're Tzeentch, make 10 4+ invul saves. Oops, you took 5 wounds.


A basic strike squad is enough to ravage anything. I mentioned you could apply the grenade results but that's really not even necessary. You should still get a 6 to wound a monstrous creature and you will kill 5 marines instead of 7-8 needing the 3+. I didn't even actually factor in the psychotroke grenades, only rad and it makes only marginal difference. Losing rad grenades in the daemon prince example brings it down to about 6-7 wounds instead of 10, but that's still pretty dead if they have a 5+ save and not out of the question if it's a tzeentch prince for 4+. And they're always going to do whatever they can to make sure those grenades ARE in the combat, so...

Oh, and they could have shot before charging. With 16 stormbolter shots [S5] and 4 psycannon shots.

Now the immediate argument is "but that unit costs a lot of points". I was assuming I was charging space marines, but it could be any flavor of space marine. It could be a terminator squad, where they'd have fewer number [and the attack yourself psychotroke grenade becomes hilarious] and still take heavy casualties. They could be vanguard veterans, or perhaps a command squad. Hope that command squad isn't home to a Librarian or anything. Or there you go, you could be charging Mephiston. Or the Avatar. Or a Seer council. Or genest.....ok that'd be a mistake. Why didn't you gun them down with vastly superior firepower then?

Of course this is an idealized situation [GK charging - that NEVER happens right?.....right?] but it's not a lot better if I charge. I'm having a hell of a time with my blood angels. Sure I get more attacks at higher initiative, but my army starts peetering out FAST from all those power weapon wounds. Against most things, I'm still spess muhrines so even when I'm down to 3 or 4 guys, I can still be a deadly charge and be effective. Against GK, not so much. I do a couple casualties, and then the fact that they're all armed with POWER WEAPONS means those odd 3-4 wounds back that they get is 3-4 DEAD marines, not just 1 or none on a good armor save roll.

Back to the Purgation squad example, you're telling me that because the grey knights have 4 less attacks, it's balanced? Two of their attacks became power weapon attacks. No, FORCE weapon attacks. The unit gained the ability to instant-kill Mephiston, a tervigon, a hive tyrant, etc. etc. if that guy rolls a 6 to wound. Know what the havocs get if they get 4 6's to wound from those extra attacks? They get.....to watch the enemy shrug off 3-4 of them with armor saves. How often have you hung your head as your enemy passed all their armor saves when you got a lucky wound roll? A thing like a power weapon is mega game-changing because it takes away that chance. "No, I don't care how lucky you are, I got a wound, so you are dead." And really, how much of the enemy is going to be left after 4 S6 flamers? A lot fewer than the 4 S4 flamers, so those 4 cc attacks are really pretty trivial.

Oh, and the Purgation squad has 4 fewer attacks, but all their attacks can be S5. Pretty even trade.

No one takes Dark Excommunication. It can only be used in base to base contact with a librarian of dreadknight. Purifiers, strike squads, interceptors, paladins, and terminators don't have it and can't get it.

Maybe you should play with a grey knight army. If you don't win all your games who would you blame?

Draigo has it as well, I believe. And nobody takes Librarians or Dreadknights, I mean NOBODY.

I win the vast majority of my games now. My only losses come from tournaments, and with my chaos army, my only losses usually came from leafblower IG if they went first and had good luck [anything less and I can pull out a tie]. Oh and grey knights, which basically sit there and roll dice.

"Yeah we out-shoot you, so we'll just stand here. Oh...Oh you want to charge? Oh, I'm sorry" *butcher butcher butcher* "You really should have let us shoot you, you'd only have been tabled in 5 turns then, not 3."

My BA have proven to not do as well, because I chose to run them as jumpers. My chaos army is all mechanized so I wanted something different. BA razorspam is probably the way to go [though I defeated it in round 7 of the con with 30 points, so maybe that's too general of a statement].

Same army was easily slapped aside by GK though, without much of a concern for their own safety. Had I not forgotten which objective was primary and which was secondary I could have gotten him simply by him taking a very very tiny army and not having enough units to take the objectives. All I could kill of his was dreadnoughts and the stormraven he handed to me though, so he had little to worry about.

Spellbound wrote:

And as for "just shoot something else if they give the rhino a 3+ cover" - that's.....eh? Ok? We're getting into player skill here but if they've put that rhino on the game-winning objective, it's kind of important that THAT rhino dies, not just any rhino.

Spamming little units of henchmen in S6 heavy bolter razorbacks a detriment in kill points? Not if the enemy is dead. Especially if now you have lots of 1-2 model units running around. Congrats you got kp for my tank. Wanna use your 200 points of marines to shoot my one guy? KP are KP but point-for-point you're wasting your firepower.


Rad grenades bring the enemy's toughness down by 1, you hammerhand for S5. Now you can't activate your force weapons! Who the hell cares they're 1 wound enemy infantry. 20 attacks 10 hit 2+ to wound, 8 die. Oh wait two had psycannons. Meh, whatever, only 7. They get their attacks back, sure. Let's assume it's an assault squad. 20 attacks back, 10 hit, 5 wound, 2 fail saves. Yeah that's not one-sided at all!


Back to the Purgation squad example, you're telling me that because the grey knights have 4 less attacks, it's balanced? Two of their attacks became power weapon attacks. No, FORCE weapon attacks. The unit gained the ability to instant-kill Mephiston, a tervigon, a hive tyrant, etc. etc. if that guy rolls a 6 to wound. Know what the havocs get if they get 4 6's to wound from those extra attacks? They get.....to watch the enemy shrug off 3-4 of them with armor saves. How often have you hung your head as your enemy passed all their armor saves when you got a lucky wound roll? A thing like a power weapon is mega game-changing because it takes away that chance. "No, I don't care how lucky you are, I got a wound, so you are dead." And really, how much of the enemy is going to be left after 4 S6 flamers? A lot fewer than the 4 S4 flamers, so those 4 cc attacks are really pretty trivial.

Oh, and the Purgation squad has 4 fewer attacks, but all their attacks can be S5. Pretty even trade.

The only way a Rhino will have a 3++ cover next to an objective on turn 5 is if the GK player has not popped smoke yet on the Rhino and the Librarian is still alive and is inside or within 6" of the Rhino, so if it happens it's because the GK player out played his opponent. If a player ends up in that situation what it comes down to is that player had 4 turns to kill that rhino where it at best had a 6++ cover save, and being close to the librarian that Rhino should have been a priority target earlier in the game.

S6 bolterbacks will struggle against AV12 IG if the IG player refuses to allow the GK player to outmaneuver him into gaining side shots. When they explode the GEQ units inside are T3 with a 5+ save and most importantly a leadership of 8. If a SM player shoots at them with 200 points of marines they deserve to lose. A simple storm bolter from a rhino or drop pod has enough dakka to force a small group of henchmen to take a morale test.

Rad grenades can bring toughness down to 1. Grats the unit of S3 WS3 5+ armor save GEQ are now T1 and the mean scary S5 GK are going to wound them on a 2+, because that's so much worse than being wounded on a 2+ when S5 goes against T3. A pair of GK HQ's can make the mother of all deathstars, which is pretty damn useless if 10 melta vets is the toughest CC unit the other side fields.

Quad flamer Purgation are great all around squads, but they compete with psyfleman dreads in an army that already lacks long ranged firepower. Long fangs are far better than Purgation squads because GK and SM don't really need another decent CC unit that has amazing point blank firepower.

So what you're saying with the Purgation squad is "Yeah they're completely undercosted and utterly broken, but they won't usually take them so that's a moot point."

And yeah, rad grenades in cc versus guard only means that the GK don't need to use their hammerhand whatsoever. Now they just don't have to take the chance of perils and cause instant death with their base attacks, provided any guard lived through the S5 stormbolters in the first place.

I'll give you that guard is a fairly rough matchup for GK. But I've seen them take as much anti-marine as possible and still lose to a smartly constructed GK army that fixed its main problem: Take more dudes.

Augustus wrote:I think their are some egregiously imbalanced things in the GK codex.

Why does the plasma funnel shut off burst weapons?
Why do Grey Knights have Techmarines?
Why does Psybolt amo work on things that aren't psykers and demons?
Why do all the troops cause ALL deep strike nearby to misshap completely?

1: because Burst weapons use plasma. but who cares? it only works within a very small area and is expensive, no one is going to take one in a competitive game.

2. well, why not? they have vehicles just like every other chapter. Serfs only can do so much.

3. because it is the psychic power of the GK improving the power of the shot. increased force and penetrating power is simply achieved through psychic means. it can hurt anything. its no different from a psyker hurling some warp lightining at someone.

4. because they can cause things to scatter off course using their psychic abilities. Teliportation involves the Warp so their powers can cause direct interference. Drop Pods and jump packs can have their thrusters messed with. it wouldn't be fair to the GKs, or Deamons, for the power to only effect Deamons. This power is all that bad. sure you can totally screw a deamon player over but that would require a bit of list tailoring to do(Scouting Strikes or Interceptors forward and spread out. and it requires 2 Grandmasters to pull it off reliably so thats a fair chunk of your army)

I've found that the majority of people complaining about gk's are either using armies from the older codexs (which were already having problems against other armies to begin with), or are average players relying on the cookie cutter builds they read online and can't figure out how to adapt their lists to make them work against a new codex. Heard way too many sw and ig players complain about de last year; despite the fact that you always had a good 50/50 shot at winning. Adjusted builds hit the web, then those complaints went away. The same thing will happen here. The only ones who are getting screwed are the older armies that have trouble in the massive spam that is 5th edition. That will pass in time as well.

If gk's knock sw and ig players off the top slots and consistently win tournament after tournament, then you can complain about how overpowered they are. I wouldn't hold your breath though

and even if Gks knock IG and SW off the top, who cares?

just the IG and SW players.

its just the normal power shift that comes with almost every new codex. GKs will swing back down to the bottom eventually.

so collecting deamons was a bad idea? :(
Not played many or any big games only just got
1000pts of deamons and getting my head round how unreliable they are but after reading you guys ranting about GK's specialy the bit about making all deepstrikes scatter! Well nackers to it I'll stay in the warp when GK turn up
Or is it a case that they need to tune there army depending on foe?
Second thing, do you guys think and army of PlazCannon weilding Marines( CC troops in razors, Devastator plus sterns in rhinos backed up by cheap 70pts Preds would do a number on these toffy nosed GKs ?

Deamons arn't any worse against GKs then any other army.

only a Warp Quake tailored army will completely screw deamons and it does require a good chunk of your army to do it right(2 Grandmasters and 4 strike or interceptor squads)

If your definition of "completely screw" is automatically win with no dice being rolled, then yeah.

If your definition of "screw" is just make it extremely difficult for the Daemon player to win, assuming equal player skill, the GK just needs to take his regular stuff and use it right. Even a single Strike Squad, spread out, bones daemon deployment a good deal.

Darth- Coteaz comes with Dark Excommunication. So every army using multiple squads of Henchmen has it. For any army using a Librarian it's a 5pt silver bullet. Why not take it? You see daemon armies in tournaments.

I've never said that GK are totally broken or head and shoulders above all other codices. I do think that they are obviously unbalanced against daemons, as I believe my earlier argument made clear, and that they have a number of clearly underpriced upgrades and abilities. Like psy-ammo, Fortitude, rad and psych-out grenades. I agree with you that their limited long range shooting and higher base cost per model are drawbacks and keep them from being utterly busted. But they're pretty nasty. Especially since Coteaz has a way of helping you make a rounded army without going over by those 150pts.

Yeah it requires them to take a solid, standard HQ with lots of utility and effectiveness. On the downside, it also requires them to bring their basic troop choice that gets 40+ points of rules and equipment for free and completely dominates pretty much every other troop choice in the game easily.


Despite this, I will not say don't play daemons. I will not say daemons can't capitalize on mistakes and win against GK. Many GK will do things like purifier spam, etc. etc. which is honestly horrible versus daemons [depending on the flavor of demon the purifiers get in cc with]. What it WILL do is give you a hefty challenge, one you can feel very, VERY rewarded by when you DO claim a victory.

As for Warp Quake, it does not make you auto-scatter. What it does is the following:

A) Your icons don't work anymore if it's within 12" of someone who uses the psychic power and

B) If you should land within 12" of someone that used the power, whether by scattering there or placing it there and rolling a hit, then you automatically mis-hap. You then will either 1-2: die 3-4 get placed where your opponent wants you or 5-6: go back in reserves.

It requires you to deepstrike far away from them [relatively] and then run in. Honestly you don't want to land within 12" anyway per se, as they could then move up, shoot you, then charge you. Daemonettes still, if charging, go before grey knights and carve them up. Bloodletters, while they'll die in droves, will still ignore their armour saves. Bolts of change will still kill dreadnoughts and the Masque will still move units around. Most of your abilities still WORK and grey knights still DIE. They're just VERY effective at killing YOU so get ready for an uphill battle.

Well they could look alittle better maybe lol the B@§%@£ds but then everybody likes to kill the unbeatable hey or nearly unbeatable

If you don't hav unbalance between the codexes then where do you start to update them? Maybe they just raised the bar for the other dexes to catch up. I hate having the best army, hurts more when you lose! Give me the underdogs so I can throw there lives away in the chase of a great victory


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And 'blessing of the blood god' must hurt them up close with a 2+ invulnerable save against psychic powers or force weapons?
suppose getting there is the challenge

I think the best thing about Grey Knights is that they can have a pure shooty list but because everything has str 5 power weapons it becomes a balanced list. Alot of people are afraid to assault because of 2 halberds but they fail to realize its just 2 attacks.

IMO GK armies are, when put together properly, basically even with all of the other 5th edition codexes (with the exception of Nids, which GW apparent hates).

When DE came out, everyone cried about them being overpowered. When SW came out, everyone whined about them too. Gk are just as good as those books in their own way.

The main problem with the actual GK armies that you see in tournaments and battle reports is that they are not actually very good armies. People keep trying to make CC GK armies, use purifiers and strike squads in rhinos, take lots of paladins, and spend way too many points on cool upgrades (like halberds in strike squads) that aren't really worthwhile in the long run, all of which are mistakes in my opinion.

Almost all of the units in the codex have competitive uses (with paladins, land raiders, some of the henchmen, and some of the named characters being the "worse" units in the book, and honestly very few/none of those are actually "bad"), the problem if that people haven't figured out / agreed on what those uses are, or just haven't built the armies yet. Once they do, i expect GK to take a strong place with the rest of the 5th ed codexes like SM, SW and DE.

When all the dust settles here is how I see it.

GK<IG, DE
GK=SW, Codes Marines
GK>BA, Nids
GK WTF>>>>>Chaos Daemons

The only army that is completely 100% screwed by GK is daemons provided the GK has 1 squad of SS or interceptors that can CS.

That being said I can see why GK thinks it's good business practice to screw chaos daemons.

Let's look at some basic facts about chaos daemons.

Players can base chaos daemons with magnets in multiple ways for easy conversion between WHFB and 40k so you get 2 armies for the price of 1 (which means GW is giving away a 2nd army anytime somebody purchases chaos deamons.)

Chaos daemons and Vampire counts were the most powerful armies in WHFB 7th edition. It got to the point where it was a common sight to see 85% of a competitive tournament show up with daemons and vampire counts despite WHFB having a larger number of armies to select from than 40k.

Many of the best units in WHFB were the best units in 40k, mainly flamers, bloodcrushers, and fiends. One of the most broken armies back in WHFB 7th edition was a giant wall of bloodcrushers. Throw in a Lord of Change as fateweaver and it turns into fatecrusher, what is probably one of the most respected deamon builds. The only units a WHFB player really needs to purchase for 40k is stuff for their heavy support slots because deamon princes were the uncontested worst lord selection in WHFB.

Chaos daemons were competitive in 40k , but never top tier in 40k, and they were stupid overpowered in WHFB 7th ed. If you look at the personalty types of WHFB chaos deamon players they are not the type to play a 4th ed book in a competitive game of 40k, and are the most likely to codex hop onto what they believe is the most powerful 40k codex as their main most powerful army. Chaos daemons could crush just about anything in WHFB 7th ed that wasn't another deamon army or Vampire Counts. As a result WHFB players have an irrational hatred of daemons and vampires that lasts now to this day. Many of them to this day refuse to play against chaos daemons, and will openly mock the use of chaos daemons as a sign of being unskilled. Many of them quite the tournament seen because they were sick of chaos daemons, and many of them quite the game during 7th ed because their armies were useless against chaos daemons. Things have calmed down a bit in WHFB, but daemons are still the #1 top tier army.

In short chaos daemons killed WHFB 7th edition. When 8th ed came out other armies could now stand a chance against them, but GW took a lot of backlash over the massive changes going into 8th ed from 7th ed, and most of the damage caused by chaos daemons was already done. It's quite possible that GW deliberately decided to make daemons worthless against GK in an attempt to rescue WHFB from the damage daemons have done. Honestly I see it as a logical and pragmatic choice to completely sacrifice a single 40k codex on the nerf alter in an attempt to save all of WHFB which has 15 armies, scenery, and a core rule book. If you ask me the risk of deamon players completely quitting 40k as a game (which is not that bad imo because most deamon players are codex hoppers that have daemons as an extra army) is worth the reward of saving WHFB from the same fate that lord of the rings now suffers.

wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

GK are incredibly powerful....

Psycannons are extremely underpriced. 4 S7 Autocannon shots that rend? All I have to do is stand still? Sign me up. Once GK get to midfield they easily out-shoot any army in the game.

Purifiers are all sorts of broken. Cleansing Flame is too much.

Fortitude for 5 pts? Really? Cheaper than extra armour, but why?

Psyflemen Dreads, +1 str for 5 points? Ridiculous. In my experience using them they have far outperformed my Long Fangs who pack 5x Missiles per squad.

Librarian's powers are undercosted. 5 points for shrouding? A smart player with a good size mech force can make sure his vehicles consistently have a 3+ cover save by being meticulous about how he moves and pops smoke. It's just too much. Sanctuary is slowed. It bones anything without grenades (Nids) and seriously hampers anyone trying to assault. This is huge as it allows the GK player to truly sit and shoot.

Henchmen spam is disgusting. Someone earlier said that a 3 man hench squad with a razor isnt effective because you will automatically lose a KP game. This is absolutely false. The fact of the matter is that a good GK player can take these 62 point scoring squads to round out his list and maximize his objective capturing potential. The increased killpoints are meaningless because these squads have such low target priority in any mission. If you decide to shoot at the henchmen squads with their razorbacks, good luck. A covered vehicle is never easy to destroy, covered troops even if they are T3 are also not THAT easy to destroy. I mean how many armies really pack a large amount of long-range anti-infantry? IG, sure. Most marines? Not so much. Shooting the puny 3 man squad also means you are ignoring the psyflemen dreads and all the other goodies the GK player is capable of bringing along. Henchmen overpower the codex because it allows the GK player to bring as many bodies as any other MEQ player, if not more.

Mike Brandt (the guy running the NOVA) posted a good article on his blog Whiskey and 40k. In it he considers a core that any GK player can take. That core is:
Coteaz
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
Psyfleman
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

The list now has maximum amount of troops, 9 vehicles and quite a bit of long-range anti tank and capable AND reliable long range anti-infantry, oh and it also only takes up about 1,000 pts. With the leftover 1000 you can take 3 BIG purifier squads, Paladins, elite HQS, etc. Good luck beating this list.

Spellbound wrote:wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

If you judge the books purely on SS versus tacticals GK win. When you look at how the lists as a whole work it's a pretty even fight. Null zone + bolters=bad news for DCA. TH/SS termies + Null zone=bad news for paladins. TH/SS termies=bad news for purifiers. While tactical marines have always been the weak link in the codex the book is actually competitive as whole.

Spellbound wrote:You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high?

Heh, exactly. Loved your examples!

Oh and people whined about SW and Dark ELdar being better than everyone else, because... They are... and now so are GKs.

Augustus wrote:

gorgon wrote:I know where you're coming from, Augustus....Tyranid player who's seen his army go through a codex progression of fast and deadly => slow hordey steamroller => Carnifex cavalcade => whatever it is today. *shrug*

Hey thanks, makes me feel a little less old and alone.

I hear you on the Tyranid codex I have the same reaction there, I recall when it was suppose to be a very horde army and what a change the carnifex thing was, and now, I wouldn't even play the little bugs, not witht he combo melee morale fearless rules, it just gets them all (the biug ones too) killed when they fight together.

Ah well.

Some of the fun of the game is adapting to the dynamic parts as thihngs change, and new lists are exciting. I'll have to try and see it that way more. But the stodgy part of me doesn't want to when I see techmarine grey knights in ruins and 3x Psiflemen dreads...

I think anyone who remembers when GKs were a specialist ally unit will be particularly biased. GKs as an army was a bridge we crossed a long time ago, but clearly these GKs are even less specialized than the Codex: DH version. So it probably hits home for an old-timer more than someone who started since 2002 or 2003. Not saying they shouldn't be an army or that they shouldn't be more of an all-comers army for balance purposes, of course. It's just a little jarring in its execution.

I still wonder if -- assuming there's some truth to the 6th ed rumors -- Daemons will become Eternal Warrior (1), thereby making them vulnerable to GK and other Instant Kill (2) force weaponry. I think it'd be pretty harsh to Daemons considering Warp Quake, etc. is already in there, but it'd bring the rules in line with fluff. *shrug*

Re: Tyranids, I've actually been having a lot of fun with all-reserve builds lately. Very fresh compared to the old dynamic. Does decently vs. mech...although mech GK are about as big of a rock to my scissors as I could imagine. Fortitude or Warp Quake would be bad enough alone. Together...whew.

Edit: And you want to talk about feeling old...I'd guess at least of the people who saw my Genestealer Cult at the 2008 Baltimore GT had NO idea what a GCult was. With reflection, it made complete sense...GCults haven't been a fully legal army since 1998, they're basically invisible even in fluff now, and plenty of today's players have started the game within the past 5 years. Made me feel very O-L-D, though. Which I kinda am, but still. LOL.

EDITS:

gorgon wrote:That's one of the things I give Phil K. credit for with DE...what's there now in terms of fluff, units and overall feel is a lot of what was there before, just...better.

Exactly, the dark eldar didn't suddenly change into a static shooting army with big tanks and heavy armor, they kept their feel, in fact I think they were elegantly 5th editionized to coin a phrase. I'm not getting the same sense of craft and elegance from the Grey Knights dex at all.

The key to defeating Grey Knights, for the most part, is the shooting phase. Either by forcing them to roll enough dice(for 10 PAGK you can have 40 Lasguns, 50 if we include Halberds, and the command squad if they want a transport) to fail some rolls, or to have enough quality shooting to destroy them, as save Crusaders and Draigo, outside of CC not an awful lot has a respectable invun save.

Spellbound wrote:wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

Obviously yes? I play Codex Marines, and I consider Tactical squads to be way better than Strike Squads. It's not even close. If I could replace my Tac squads with Strike squads at equal cost I would not do so, much less at the extra prices GK pay. When you get right down to it, it's all about the special and heavy weapons for these units, and psycannons on power armored units are IMO quite underwhelming. Meltaguns aren't. When you couple that with the fact that Grey Knights can't take long range weapons and therefore can't make as good use of Combat Squads and Razorbacks, the Tacs seem clearly better.

the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Heavy 4 or assault 2 Str7 rending is a powerful weapon for close range.

on Heavy 4, you get about 3 hits(rounding up) and then about a 50% chance of a rend. against Av13 thats a garunteed penetration. a 1/3 chance of a Glance against Av14 and a 2/3 pen.


its also at 24", much longer then a melta gun and you can have 2 per squad. 4 on Purifiers and Purgation squads.

GKs don't need Melta guns.

Fetterkey wrote:

Spellbound wrote:wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

Obviously yes? I play Codex Marines, and I consider Tactical squads to be way better than Strike Squads. It's not even close. If I could replace my Tac squads with Strike squads at equal cost I would not do so, much less at the extra prices GK pay. When you get right down to it, it's all about the special and heavy weapons for these units, and psycannons on power armored units are IMO quite underwhelming. Meltaguns aren't. When you couple that with the fact that Grey Knights can't take long range weapons and therefore can't make as good use of Combat Squads and Razorbacks, the Tacs seem clearly better.

lol this made me giggle ^^

Edit: And you want to talk about feeling old...I'd guess at least of the people who saw my Genestealer Cult at the 2008 Baltimore GT had NO idea what a GCult was. With reflection, it made complete sense...GCults haven't been a fully legal army since 1998, they're basically invisible even in fluff now, and plenty of today's players have started the game within the past 5 years. Made me feel very O-L-D, though. Which I kinda am, but still. LOL.

I miss those cult days. They were always fun to play as or against

omerakk wrote:I miss those cult days. They were always fun to play as or against

Indeed, remember the limos?



Tactical marines? > Grey knights, of course, in everything except a direct comparison, ha. Obviously the storm bolter GKs would beat the tacs in any kind of fight, ranged or CC, which means they're clearly not as good. LOLWUT?

Grey Templar wrote:the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Psycannons are good weapons on Terminators and Purgation squads. They aren't so hot for Strike Squads. Honestly, were I running Grey Knights, I would seriously consider giving my Strike Squads incinerators instead of psycannons.

Augustus wrote:Obviously the storm bolter GKs would beat the tacs in any kind of fight, ranged or CC, which means they're clearly not as good. LOLWUT?

These squads aren't for killing, they're for winning the game. A 16 point Tactical Marine claims an objective just as well as a 20 point Grey Knight, and provides better support to the rest of the army while doing so with his more synergistic special rules (Combat Tactics, more efficient Combat Squads) and superior special and heavy weapon options.

Fetterkey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Psycannons are good weapons on Terminators and Purgation squads. They aren't so hot for Strike Squads. Honestly, were I running Grey Knights, I would seriously consider giving my Strike Squads incinerators instead of psycannons.

Can I ask why to the statement in bold? (noob GK player here)

nectarprime wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Psycannons are good weapons on Terminators and Purgation squads. They aren't so hot for Strike Squads. Honestly, were I running Grey Knights, I would seriously consider giving my Strike Squads incinerators instead of psycannons.

Can I ask why to the statement in bold? (noob GK player here)

Psycannons don't synergize very well with storm bolters, at least not for non-Terminators. Storm bolters are the same regardless of whether you move. In practice, this means you should almost always be moving when using them so that you can ensure you're in the best possible position. Psycannons, on the other hand, rapidly become inadequate once you start moving. They're good on Paladins and Terminators, who can move and fire at full effectiveness, Purifiers or Purgation squads, where you can get them in numbers to make up for their weaknesses, and debatably Interceptors, where you can get rear and side shots easily, but for GKSS I think they might be too inefficient to live.

Fetterkey wrote:Psycannons don't synergize very well with storm bolters,...

That's funny. Of course they do! they all move and fire and should you stay still, you get even more shots, and they all benefit from psybolt, so what's not synergistic! ? You're a contrarian aren't you! Heh.

Ya, the psycannon only gets 2 shots if you move, but those 2 shots are still decent at both anti infantry and anti tank; it's almost like a mobile missle launcher.

These squads aren't for killing, they're for winning the game. A 16 point Tactical Marine claims an objective just as well as a 20 point Grey Knight, and provides better support to the rest of the army while doing so with his more synergistic special rules (Combat Tactics, more efficient Combat Squads) and superior special and heavy weapon options.

I don't understand that stance at all. Personally, I think a unit that can deepstrike, prevent units from deepstriking nearby it, and has all force weapons is MUCH better at taking and holding an objective. If you can't find a way to make those abilities useful... I don't know what to say. Superior special weapons? Not really. The only time a melta surpasses the pyscannon is when you are within melta range; and weren't you just complaining about lack of range being the gk ss weakness? 6" for a melta seems a bit shorter than 24". The only real advantage the vanilla squad has in weapons is the ability to get a lascannon. Too bad I have to take a squad of 10 crappy marines in order to get that 1 gun.

Not sure what competitive scene you play on, but the few vanilla marines I've seen that win consistently were the guys running the minimum possible tac squads

omerakk wrote:Personally, I think a unit that can deepstrike, prevent units from deepstriking nearby it, and has all force weapons is MUCH better at taking and holding an objective. If you can't find a way to make those abilities useful... I don't know what to say.

I can find ways to make those abilities useful, but I find it easier to make Combat Squads and Combat Tactics useful. Your mileage may vary, but that's good for the game-- if you'd rather have GKSS, go ahead and play with GKSS. I'll stick with my Tactical Squads, and maybe sometime we'll get the chance to play each other and see how this debate looks on the battlefield!

omerakk wrote:Superior special weapons? Not really. The only time a melta surpasses the pyscannon is when you are within melta range; and weren't you just complaining about lack of range being the gk ss weakness? 6" for a melta seems a bit shorter than 24". The only real advantage the vanilla squad has in weapons is the ability to get a lascannon. Too bad I have to take a squad of 10 crappy marines in order to get that 1 gun.

The thing is, my Tactical Squad can have both two meltas (one from the special weapon and one from the Sergeant's combi-melta) AND a lascannon, and I can split into two units to make each of those weapons maximally effective. So while five Marines sit on an objective in the back with the lascannon, the other five move up to use their meltas and claim objectives in the middle of the field. Grey Knight armies don't really have a good option for claiming backfield objectives, at least not without bringing HQ choices into the mix. I, for one, definitely prefer two meltas and a las to two psycannons, though again your mileage may vary.

omerakk wrote:Not sure what competitive scene you play on, but the few vanilla marines I've seen that win consistently were the guys running the minimum possible tac squads

Ben Mohile, who just won Best General at WargamesCon, might disagree with you...

Ben "Spacecurves" Mohile wrote:
2000pt Space Marine List
Vulkan He'Stan
Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity , combi-flamer

5 Assault Terminators: TH/SS
Dreadnought: twin-linked auto-cannon, twin-linked auto-cannon

10 Marines, meltagun, missile launcher, Sgt. with Power fist and combi-melta + Rhino w Dozer Blade
10 Marines, flamer, missile launcher, Sgt. with Power fist and combi-flamer + Rhino w Dozer Blade
10 Marines, flamer, missile launcher, combi-flamer + Razorback w heavy bolters

Land Speeder: heavy bolter, typhoon missiles
Land Speeder: heavy bolter, typhoon missiles
Attack Bikes: 2 attack bikes with multi-meltas

Land Raider: extra armor, Multi-Melta
Thunderfire Cannon

No, I don't think he would disagree at all, seeing as how he's the only one winning with a 3 troops marine list, and the others that place fairly well are running the minimum 2.

I also notice that he only has 2 melta's and zero lascannons in his tac marines, so I guess I'm not the only one that thinks there are better weapons to put on tac squads

Fetterkey wrote:Ben Mohile, who just won Best General at WargamesCon, might disagree with you...

Ben "Spacecurves" Mohile wrote:
2000pt Space Marine List
Vulkan He'Stan
+ STUFF

OK you're right, one guy winning a questionably run tourney in Texas decides it. TAC > GKs 4 ever.

Augustus wrote:OK you're right, one guy winning a questionably run tourney in Texas decides it. TAC > GKs 4 ever.

That would indeed be a silly argument, but that's not the one that I was making. omerakk asked for an example of a vanilla marine player doing well with non-minimal Tac squads, and I provided one. Also, if you think WGC was a "questionable" event, that's certainly your prerogative-- what do you think of the Boston Brawlcon, which the same player won Best Overall at using the same list?

omerakk wrote:No, I don't think he would disagree at all, seeing as how he's the only one winning with a 3 troops marine list, and the others that place fairly well are running the minimum 2.

I also notice that he only has 2 melta's and zero lascannons in his tac marines, so I guess I'm not the only one that thinks there are better weapons to put on tac squads

Nice goalpost moving, but I provided the link to Ben's results because they were the most recent, not because they were the "only ones--" tons of people take more than the minimum Tacs. Here's a link to a Dakka member's report of a recent RTT he won with another 30-Tac Marine list. Again, this is just from what I remember reading in the last month or so-- I'm sure if you tried you could find many more results where people win events with more than the minimum possible amount of Tacs in their armies.

Note also that Ben runs Vulkan He'Stan, who radically alters the equation pertaining to what weapons you should take, both on Tactical Marines and everywhere else.

Incinerators are horrible on Strikes. they are so freakin expensive it doesn't make any sense.

the Pyscannon is more versitile and 1/2 the cost.

Nice goalpost moving, but I provided the link to Ben's results because they were the most recent, not because they were the "only ones--" tons of people take more than the minimum Tacs. Here's a link to a Dakka member's report of a recent RTT he won with another 30-Tac Marine list. Again, this is just from what I remember reading in the last month or so-- I'm sure if you tried you could find many more results where people win events with more than the minimum possible amount of Tacs in their armies.

Goalpost moving, like trying to prove your theory on tac squads is correct by using one of the top players in the world is able to do instead of the majority of players? By that logic, Necrons must be the best army in the game since Dash is undefeated with them. Yes, there are "tons" of people who take more than the minimum squads, and if you have read the reports, you'll see its always the same 3 guys winning major tournaments with them. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could find someone with 6 tac squads winning a local tournament. Hell, I remember reading a cron player winning a local tournament with a 6 warrior slots, zero monolith, no deceiver list... twice. Would I use that to back up a claim that necron warriors are > sm tac squads? Of course not.

Note also that Ben runs Vulkan He'Stan, who radically alters the equation pertaining to what weapons you should take, both on Tactical Marines and everywhere else.

And maybe he does that because it works better than melta and lascannon spam in tac squads?

Back to your original argument that tac squads > gk strike squads, you have given no evidence of that whatsoever. You've made several good points,
Tac squads are better at:
1. long range support
2. utility with combat squads
3. survivability with combat tactics

and have ignored the fact that
Strike squads are better at:
1. mid range firepower
2. close combat
3. utility with pys powers

Yes, your tac squads have excellent synergy... with vanilla marines; and strike squads have excellent synergy with... grey knights. I don't understand how you can say unit A is better than unit B when both of them do their jobs perfectly for the army they are in.

The problem with everyone saying that the 4 points more over a standard marine regarding all of the stuff they get extra is that in a perfect world, yes, the storm bolters will shoot every turn, they will assault models with lower initiative every turn and mop them up in time for their turn, and that the entire enemy army is going to be trying to deep strike near them always. That sort of situation doesn't happen.

Those 20 (or 24 if you take Crowe and purifiers) basic troopers still die to lasguns the exact same as the 16 point marines. Giving a force sword to a 1 wound model that has 1 base attack, no bonus for a pistol, and at best two attacks on the charge on paper looks very powerful, but when it hits the tabletop, potentially it can do well, but rarely does. My local area has several Tau players, they have never faced the plasma siphon (too situational for an all comers list, plus it eats a valuable hq slot) and have a very good record against the Grey Knights.

On the table, hysterics removed, they are a good middle of the road army. While an individual model has a lot going for it, they don't get the free special weapons (what special weapons?) or the free heavy weapons of their tactical brethren. Barring monkeys, dreadnaughts and Landradiers, the range of the entire army is 24", and while the psycannon is rending, relying on rending to bust armor value 14 is chancy at best, mathhammer says that it should happen fairly often, in reality, it sure doesn't seem to pan out that way.

I myself am planning on taking a purifier with halberd heavy list, I've played them a few times, but with each trooper costing 26 points minimum, you end up having a ton of points invested in your easiest to kill models.

I would say however, in the defense of the most vocal people here, that in my opinion, the Death Cult Assassin and Crusaders are very under costed for what they can do. Especially when a storm shield for an acolyte costs more than an entire Crusader in a henchman squad.

DakkaDakka wrote: