Mephiston 250

(5) Honour Guard, Jumppacks, 4x meltagun, 4x flamer 225

2x Priest w/ Jumppack 150

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(5) Assault Squad, 1x meltagun, Sarge w/ Infernus Pistol and Lightning Claw 140

(5) Assault Squad, 1x meltagun, Sarge w/ Infernus Pistol and Lightning Claw 140

(5) Assault Squad, 1x meltagun, Sarge w/ Infernus Pistol and Lightning Claw 140

= 1750

6x Doublemelta squads, 3x FnP/FC bubbles.

Mephiston, 50 FnP marines, gakloads of melta, makes GK players cry. This list isn't exactly tailored to beat GK, but it should do well against them, while still being well-rounded enough to be considered competitive.

The 5 man assault squads have Claws because I had points left over, and so they can kill off other small MEQ squads that are camping in cover or something.

Thoughts?

4 Meltaguns and 4 Flamers in a single unit? Pretty sure you can't do that.

I dont understand how it's any sort of real counter against grey Knights.

In fact...I have a grey knight list and I'd love to see this across the board against me.

It can be done with this unit. Id like to hear why this list Grey Knight counter.

Deadshane1 wrote:I dont understand how it's any sort of real counter against grey Knights.

In fact...I have a grey knight list and I'd love to see this across the board against me.

Think about it.

I'll give you a hint: FnP, Mephiston, melta.

What does your list contain, btw?

I'm not saying this list is a counter against ALL GK lists, just the ubiquitous Coteaz/Crowe Purifier + Dreadnought + Psyrazor spam, which is popping up everywhere in my meta.

Of course he can take melta and flamers on Honor Guards.

Jabbdo, I alwais pay attention to your lists because you almost everytime find a particular and original while effective setup.

This time, by the way, I really can't see how an army like this one will seriously disturb a well builded GK army.

Of course isn't an easy list to play with, as all the DoA lists but a part the Mephiston+Honor Guard very aggressive combo everything else will suffer just like anybody the usual GK abilities, Hammerhand, RAD Grenades, Sanctuary, I6 Force Weapons etc etc.

Wow....nice sneak.

Noone would EVER expect FnP or melta in a list. Lot's of Grey Knights will get caught off guard by that one.

NOT!

You know that DoA doesnt work against Grey Knights right?(Warp Quake anyone?) Your melta is nullified by their superior ranged firepower.

Riflemen dont care about your FNP, neither do any of the CC weapons in the entire army.

Your CC get's pwned by DCA/Crusader/Psychotrope/Rad combos.

Mephiston, since there is nothing in the army to block Line of sight to him...will get shot off the table by a smart player b-4 he ever gets to assault.

Beleive me....there are MANY things to counter this army with. It's one dimentional and NOT scary to Vet players. It's DoA spam. It's been done. It's expected.

A few things of note:

1) No Matter what, your Assault Squads and Honor Guard are going to go after some of the Grey Knight units, if not most. Halberds are cheap and priceless...

2) Mephiston will be focus fired if not murdered in assault. You have to remember if he gets charged he's going Initiative 1. And I guarantee almost every Psycannon in the army would be pointed at him.

3) Feel No Pain doesn't matter much against Power Weapons.

Let me throw this little gem of a Grey Knight list up and see how you would approach it:

H.Q.

Librarian
Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Quicksilver -170

Elites

Paladins 10x
Apothecary/Sword, Brotherhood Banner, Daemon Hammer, Halberd, Sword, Sword/Psycannon, Halberd/Psycannon, Hammer/Psycannon, Halberd/Psycannon, Daemon Hammer -750

Troops

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Heavy Support

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Searchlight -136

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Searchlight -136

Total: 1750

The theme to this army: "Come at me Bro"

One thing that would probably help your Grey Knight "counter" list would be a librarian with a hood. GK are very powerful when you let them use their psychic abilities unmolested. A hood does wonders for that.

Show me a GK list that can kill 50 FnP marines in 2 turns. Really. 2 turns is all I need to get all my stuff in range (24"+D6" movement will put me in range of anywhere you are)

I get FnP against your Psyrazors. I get FnP against 5/6 wounds caused by your Psycannons. What does that leave you with? Oh yeah, your Psyflemen, which will kill 0,987 marines each, per turn. Gratz!

Melta annoys GK because it kills vehicles dead, instead of suppressing them (which GK doesn't care about).

What are you gonna kill Meph with, realistically? Psycannon rends? Because that's probably your best shot (and its a pretty crappy one at that). Not only does he rape your little 5 man PA GK squads that fall out of your Razor wrecks, he also nullifies your Fortitude and Hammerhand casts. Fun fun fun!!

You do realise I don't have to DS the army, right? Against GK, I'd probably actually rather deploy it, so I can overwhelm you with FnP marines instead of dropping down piecemeal and dying to massed Force weapon charges.

I'm not really seeing how this is a counter to GK lists either.

Mephiston seems like a horrible idea, what exactly is he bringing to the table? I personally don't think he should be in most the lists I see him in, but this one especially. Psychotrope nades and Reinforced Aegis are going to murder him.

While not in every list, Vindicares love lists like this one too. No long range shooting to worry about, and several juicy Priests that are perfect targets.

Other than that I don't see what would keep GKs from kiting the BA for a couple turns then finishing off weakened squads in CC.

Can you explain the list a little better maybe?

While I do agree that the list is not a true counter to gk, the initiative 6 halberds is only 2 attacks, and they die like regular marines so if you can kill 1-2 with melta/bolt pistol going in followed by the str 5 attacks and the powerfist the troop choices should die rather easily. If you can take out the three razorbacks you should be able to win objective missions due to your mobility and large number of scoring units. While the paladin unit is a huge deathstar they only have a 5+ against melta weapons. GKs are good but because of the lower number of units you cant make as many mistakes.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:A few things of note:

1) No Matter what, your Assault Squads and Honor Guard are going to go after some of the Grey Knight units, if not most. Halberds are cheap and priceless...

2) Mephiston will be focus fired if not murdered in assault. You have to remember if he gets charged he's going Initiative 1. And I guarantee almost every Psycannon in the army would be pointed at him.

3) Feel No Pain doesn't matter much against Power Weapons.

Let me throw this little gem of a Grey Knight list up and see how you would approach it:

H.Q.

Librarian
Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Quicksilver -170

Elites

Paladins 10x
Apothecary/Sword, Brotherhood Banner, Daemon Hammer, Halberd, Sword, Sword/Psycannon, Halberd/Psycannon, Hammer/Psycannon, Halberd/Psycannon, Daemon Hammer -750

Troops

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Heavy Support

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Searchlight -136

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Searchlight -136

Total: 1750

The theme to this army: "Come at me Bro"

Just thought I'd point out that this list can hardly be called a "take all comers list" thanks to the fact that 750pts of your army is invested in a unit of t4 multiwound models that die like bitches to melta/lascannons/railguns, but ok..

I'd deploy everything, to begin with. No DS.

Objective missions, I'd kill your strike squads and autowin (melta cracks open Razors, assaults clean up)

Paladins could be dealt with via massed melta fire, using one squad to bubblewrap the rest so even if you survive you'll just kill a 5 man squad and get pounded by melta again next turn. Meph cleans up when there are only a couple left.

I could pretty much ignore most of your shooting, if I deal with the Paladin bomb its GG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Mephiston seems like a horrible idea, what exactly is he bringing to the table? I personally don't think he should be in most the lists I see him in, but this one especially. Psychotrope nades and Reinforced Aegis are going to murder him.

Other than that I don't see what would keep GKs from kiting the BA for a couple turns then finishing off weakened squads in CC.

Mephiston brings a hood and the ability to kill small GK squads (which almost all GK lists contain) in CC before they get to do jack gak.

How exactly are you kiting units that move faster than you do?

People need to realize that GK have very little shooting that can reliably kill FnP marines. You need ~3 Psybolter razors to kill a single FnP marine. You're facing 50 of them. Good luck.

This list is hardly a hard counter to a GK all comers list. Why don't you just play test this in your meta and come back to us with the results. If you really believe it's an effective counter, then you shouldn't need any advice, eh?

If you don't deepstrike that leaves you with how many turns of crossing the board to volumes of firepower?

I mean seriously, you think Mephiston is always going to make his tests while dealing with the Libby's psychic hood? Is every unit going to make that difficult terrain test when the Libby Casts Sanctuary? Is all of your melta going to be autowin when you're dealing with 3+ Cover Saved Vehicles and more than likely a 3+ (if not 4+ but only a jackass would deploy Paladins behind Razorbacks hoping for a cover save)for the Paladins?

Sure missions with Objectives will be a bitch; then again, when aren't they? I'm not really counting on my Marines in the Razorbacks to destroy 10 man assault squads, I'm just looking at them to finish off what crosses the board.

Dreadnoughts are more for kicks and giggles than anything else, pretty much to make it "Well Rounded".

The fact is, you'll probably be jumping across the board because you don't want to chance the mishap. You'll be hopping from cover to cover hoping for the best. You will have 1-2 turns of no shooting coming from your army while the Grey Knights will be shooting from...oh yeah, that's right, Turn 1...with pretty much their whole army.

All of your Marines are going to have to fight at some point if those Paladins run amok, and I guarantee any squad they touch will be murdered.

The all important issue here is, you're not just going to swoop in and kill everything. This list isn't even "optimized" or whatever, but it will still make you work for every single point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jabbdo

Your autowin strategy is flawed beyond belief. You're starting on the board, tell me how the hell you intend on popping my Razorbacks all at once and charging the insides without receiving the ass handing of your life? Seriously, you're assuming none of the powers will go off, you're going to kill everything you shoot, and that a majority of your army will have survived crossing the field...That's just blatantly ignoring the facts of what is put before you. You're going to fail terrain tests and fall short on the assault, you won't be roflpowning Paladins with Melta if they always have cover and it is at worst a 4+, you won't be walking through Razorbacks with 3+ cover, and I can guarantee that 2-3 of those squads will either be gone or depleted to the point of no return by the time they him my lines.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:If you don't deepstrike that leaves you with how many turns of crossing the board to volumes of firepower?

I mean seriously, you think Mephiston is always going to make his tests while dealing with the Libby's psychic hood? Is every unit going to make that difficult terrain test when the Libby Casts Sanctuary? Is all of your melta going to be autowin when you're dealing with 3+ Cover Saved Vehicles and more than likely a 3+ (if not 4+ but only a jackass would deploy Paladins behind Razorbacks hoping for a cover save)for the Paladins?

Sure missions with Objectives will be a bitch; then again, when aren't they? I'm not really counting on my Marines in the Razorbacks to destroy 10 man assault squads, I'm just looking at them to finish off what crosses the board.

Dreadnoughts are more for kicks and giggles than anything else, pretty much to make it "Well Rounded".

The fact is, you'll probably be jumping across the board because you don't want to chance the mishap. You'll be hopping from cover to cover hoping for the best. You will have 1-2 turns of no shooting coming from your army while the Grey Knights will be shooting from...oh yeah, that's right, Turn 1...with pretty much their whole army.

All of your Marines are going to have to fight at some point if those Paladins run amok, and I guarantee any squad they touch will be murdered.

The all important issue here is, you're not just going to swoop in and kill everything. This list isn't even "optimized" or whatever, but it will still make you work for every single point.

In pitched deployment (for example) 12" deplo+12"move+D6"+12"move is 37"- 42" down the board on t2. I think that'll put me in range.

Nope, Mephiston isnt going to pass everything, of course, but he will be able to fly around while outside your 24" hood bubble. Nope, I won't make every difficult terrain roll. Nope, my melta won't autowin. But neither will you pass every Psychic test with Meph nearby, so having Shrouding/Sanctuary is by no means a given.

Of course the Paladins will murder everything they touch. That's why I can't let them touch me at all. I've got superior mobility, so I should be able to avoid them until enough of them die to melta so Meph can jump in and finish them off.

Deadshane1 wrote:Wow....nice sneak.

Noone would EVER expect FnP or melta in a list. Lot's of Grey Knights will get caught off guard by that one.

NOT!

You know that DoA doesnt work against Grey Knights right?(Warp Quake anyone?) Your melta is nullified by their superior ranged firepower.

Riflemen dont care about your FNP, neither do any of the CC weapons in the entire army.

Your CC get's pwned by DCA/Crusader/Psychotrope/Rad combos.

Mephiston, since there is nothing in the army to block Line of sight to him...will get shot off the table by a smart player b-4 he ever gets to assault.

Beleive me....there are MANY things to counter this army with. It's one dimentional and NOT scary to Vet players. It's DoA spam. It's been done. It's expected.

1. You should really tone down your attitude. It comes accross as rude, and uncalled for.

2. While nothing "blocks" LOS to Mephiston, he does get cover saves from other units infront of him. And Multiple squads can make in hard for others to see him.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:
@Jabbdo

Your autowin strategy is flawed beyond belief. You're starting on the board, tell me how the hell you intend on popping my Razorbacks all at once and charging the insides without receiving the ass handing of your life? Seriously, you're assuming none of the powers will go off, you're going to kill everything you shoot, and that a majority of your army will have survived crossing the field...That's just blatantly ignoring the facts of what is put before you. You're going to fail terrain tests and fall short on the assault, you won't be roflpowning Paladins with Melta if they always have cover and it is at worst a 4+, you won't be walking through Razorbacks with 3+ cover, and I can guarantee that 2-3 of those squads will either be gone or depleted to the point of no return by the time they him my lines.

I dont have an autowin strategy. I'm saying those paladins WILL die to melta, if I shoot enough of it at them. Period. By bubblewrapping with a 5 man squad or some such, I can keep the rest of my army safe from them while continuing to pound them with melta. As they are the biggest threat in the army, and the only unit that can reliably kill Meph, if I kill them I win.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but your shooting really will be inefficient against FnP marines. Your Paladins will kill around 5-6 marines with their shooting. Your 3 Razors will kill around ONE marine per turn, your dreads will kill ONE each. Strike squads will account for around two more each (assuming you're firing with the psycannon heavy profile). That's 9 marines altogether, from the rest of your army.

Sorry if I'm coming off as douchey, I'm tired and annoyed in general (unrelated reasons).

It just it feels like people are severely overestimating the effect of GK shooting against FnP marines. Do the math, people. Count how many FnP marines a Psybolter razor kills, or a single Psycannon, or a Dread. I think you'll be surprised.

Jabbdo wrote:
Mephiston brings a hood and the ability to kill small GK squads (which almost all GK lists contain) in CC before they get to do jack gak.

How exactly are you kiting units that move faster than you do?

People need to realize that GK have very little shooting that can reliably kill FnP marines. You need ~3 Psybolter razors to kill a single FnP marine. You're facing 50 of them. Good luck.

Did someone piss in your Cheerios this morning or something? Or are you always like this. If you really just want people that agree with you to post, please let us know in the first post so we don't waste our time.

I personally don't run GK as MSU, and I even take Interceptors . Even foot squads cut your advancing speed in half if they're moving away from you, and they don't have to stay away forever, just long enough to weaken the squads enough to beat them in CC.

I don't have to show you an army that can kill 50 FNP marines in 2 turns.

All I have to do is show you an army that can weaken you enough to fight you off b4 you can decisivly knock a significant portion of my army out.

...which is pretty much any dedicated Grey Knight shooty list.

It's not like people havent come up with jump pack armies bfore...and the same amount of people have factored them into their defense/offense.

Nothing innovative or surprising here.

gpfunk wrote:This list is hardly a hard counter to a GK all comers list. Why don't you just play test this in your meta and come back to us with the results. If you really believe it's an effective counter, then you shouldn't need any advice, eh?

I will be playtesting, and I'll keep you guys posted as I get results. Advice is always welcome, but TBH all I've received so far is comments on how the list sucks

Though nothing wrong with that, its refreshing to have to defend your own lists against criticizms, having to articulate your own opinions on the list often helps to organize your thoughts on it, and can help to reveal flaws in the list which you might not notice yourself.

To be perfectly honest, I would say that Jump Pack Librarians would be significantly better than just Mephiston.

They can hide in the squads while buffing their abilities and hell...you could just Blood Lance a Line of Paladins or Razorbacks and have a better chance than with a Close Combat Monster that would have to try and not get assaulted and end up going last while being singled out like that one white guy at the million man march...

Creeping Dementia wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:
Mephiston brings a hood and the ability to kill small GK squads (which almost all GK lists contain) in CC before they get to do jack gak.

How exactly are you kiting units that move faster than you do?

People need to realize that GK have very little shooting that can reliably kill FnP marines. You need ~3 Psybolter razors to kill a single FnP marine. You're facing 50 of them. Good luck.

Did someone piss in your Cheerios this morning or something? Or are you always like this. If you really just want people that agree with you to post, please let us know in the first post so we don't waste our time.

I personally don't run GK as MSU, and I even take Interceptors . Even foot squads cut your advancing speed in half if they're moving away from you, and they don't have to stay away forever, just long enough to weaken the squads enough to beat them in CC.

I dont want people to agree with me. I'd just like if people considered what they are saying. If you think the list sucks, at least provide some sort of actual criticizm. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:I don't have to show you an army that can kill 50 FNP marines in 2 turns.

All I have to do is show you an army that can weaken you enough to fight you off b4 you can decisivly knock a significant portion of my army out.

OK...

You still haven't showed me the army?

Jabbdo wrote:

I will be playtesting, and I'll keep you guys posted as I get results. Advice is always welcome, but TBH all I've received so far is comments on how the list sucks

Though nothing wrong with that, its refreshing to have to defend your own lists against criticizms, having to articulate your own opinions on the list often helps to organize your thoughts on it, and can help to reveal flaws in the list which you might not notice yourself.

Sounds good, looking forward to the battle reports. Just make sure when you play that you know all of the things that will negate your FnP. Dreads with autocannons will instakill your marines, as will power weapons which all GK come equipped with. Also note, that if you are within melta range against a meched up GK army, you'll be in assault range. Make sure to pick your assault targets as well. If you come up against halberds you're in serious trouble, striking first and negating your fnp and your armor save. Don't over estimate your mobility, GK won't be quite as fast, but will be able to keep up, and threaten your melta units.

Oh, and I don't think you answered this question. But can a 5 man honor guard have 4 melta guns AND 4 flamers?

Unholy_Martyr wrote:A few things of note:

1) No Matter what, your Assault Squads and Honor Guard are going to go after some of the Grey Knight units, if not most. Halberds are cheap and priceless...

2) Mephiston will be focus fired if not murdered in assault. You have to remember if he gets charged he's going Initiative 1. And I guarantee almost every Psycannon in the army would be pointed at him.

3) Feel No Pain doesn't matter much against Power Weapons.

Let me throw this little gem of a Grey Knight list up and see how you would approach it:

H.Q.

Librarian
Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Quicksilver -170

Elites

Paladins 10x
Apothecary/Sword, Brotherhood Banner, Daemon Hammer, Halberd, Sword, Sword/Psycannon, Halberd/Psycannon, Hammer/Psycannon, Halberd/Psycannon, Daemon Hammer -750

Troops

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Strike Squad 5x
Psycannon, Justicar w/ MC Daemonhammer, 2x Halberd, Razorback: Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight -186

Heavy Support

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Searchlight -136

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Searchlight -136

Total: 1750

The theme to this army: "Come at me Bro"

I agree with your points and laughed at when you said
The theme to this army: "Come at me Bro" lol

Glad someone else could enjoy that little morsel of humor.

Jabbdo wrote:Show me a GK list that can kill 50 FnP marines in 2 turns. Really. 2 turns is all I need to get all my stuff in range (24"+D6" movement will put me in range of anywhere you are)

I get FnP against your Psyrazors. I get FnP against 5/6 wounds caused by your Psycannons. What does that leave you with? Oh yeah, your Psyflemen, which will kill 0,987 marines each, per turn. Gratz!

Melta annoys GK because it kills vehicles dead, instead of suppressing them (which GK doesn't care about).

What are you gonna kill Meph with, realistically? Psycannon rends? Because that's probably your best shot (and its a pretty crappy one at that). Not only does he rape your little 5 man PA GK squads that fall out of your Razor wrecks, he also nullifies your Fortitude and Hammerhand casts. Fun fun fun!!

You do realise I don't have to DS the army, right? Against GK, I'd probably actually rather deploy it, so I can overwhelm you with FnP marines instead of dropping down piecemeal and dying to massed Force weapon charges.

What are you going to do about the 10man pallie squad huh?
And now I guess I have to have eveery one of my GK lists edited by deadshane1 and Unholy_Martyr

Khorne Flakes wrote:
What are you going to do about the 10man pallie squad huh?

Melta>t4 multiwound guys with a 5++ (OK, usually a 4+ cover with possible 3+). Get enough melta in range and yeah, those paladins WILL die.

Yeah, Honour Guard can exchange both bolt pistols and CCW for various equipment, so each guy in the squad has both a flamer and a meltagun.

Just a point, I do play GK myself, and can honestly say I don't know if my Coteaz list would beat this.

Jabbdo wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:
What are you going to do about the 10man pallie squad huh?

Melta>t4 multiwound guys with a 5++ (OK, usually a 4+ cover with possible 3+). Get enough melta in range and yeah, those paladins WILL die.

Yeah, Honour Guard can exchange both bolt pistols and CCW for various equipment, so each guy in the squad has both a flamer and a meltagun.

Just a point, I do play GK myself, and can honestly say I don't know if my Coteaz list would beat this.

Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

Really? You don't even know what list I play. You don't know how many games I have played with Grey Knights. You have absolutely no idea of my proficiency with them, and yet you assume that I'm an utter n00b.

lol.

If you look at my GK list I think you'll notice that its a pretty typical competitive Coteaz Psyrazor/Purifier/Dread list. Not a fething single stormraven mess of crappiness or Arco flagellant über CC army composed of gak.

I do know how to play GK, thanks.

Jabbdo wrote:

I do know how to play GK, thanks.

If that was REALLY true, you wouldnt claim that this is some sort of answer to the codex....


(leaves this thread laughing at the thought of spammed henchmen psykers throwing blast after blast after blast at this army....)

Khorne Flakes wrote:
Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

OK... So some people, who claim to be "GK veterans", claim that my list will fail, and somehow, because they magically claim these things, they're automatically right?

Wake up, mate.

What if I claim I'm fething Jervis Johnson? What then? Because I obviously am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

I do know how to play GK, thanks.

If that was REALLY true, you wouldnt claim that this is some sort of answer to the codex....


(leaves this thread laughing at the thought of spammed henchmen psykers throwing blast after blast after blast at this army....)

Yeah, because trying to throw out those Psyker blasts is so fun with Meph standing next to your ld8 Psykers with his ld10 hood

Plus the fact that against fully spread out guys (max coherency range) you'd hit 3 with a large blast. GZ.

I won't comment on your blatant insulting of my proficiency with playing Grey Knights, because I'll just be banging my head against a wall.

I know I play Grey Knights, I know I can play them reasonably well, I know my army is competitive. I don't feel the need to prove that to anyone on the internet so I can inflate my ego. You can believe what you like.

ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Jabbdo wrote:

Yeah, because trying to throw out those Psyker blasts is so fun with Meph standing next to your ld8 Psykers with his ld10 hood

.

Oh yea, I forgot, Mephiston starts within 24" to use it....every game....and it's impossible to kill that lychpin before he gets close.

...or am I mistaken and it's possible to get first turn (with coteaz in tow) and get 2-3 turns of fire on your army b-4 he gets close enough to hood me? Unless I blow him off the table first?

One of my closest buddies plays Blood Angels as his main army, he has played all kinds of lists against me, FULL out Assault squads, full mech list, libarian and furioso dreds all over the place. None of it really scares me from Blood Angels, any good list is always a threat. And we are about 50/50 on games of having played prolly 20+

No offense to anyone, but I dont think that list is as optomized as it could be. An example of what I run for a 2k list is something like:

Librarian, shield, other spell, JP

2x sang priests p. weapons (people say dont, but I have found them useful) JP

3x 10 man assault squads, 2 meltas, pf

2x 5 man devastator squads m launchers

1x 5 man devastator squad h bolters (just for fun preferance, sometimes I take this out for an uber leader like sangunator, or just a 2nd libby as points virtually same spent)

1x ironclad flak cannon, flamer, e armor, d. pod

1x death company dread flamer melta blood claws, drop pod

8x death company, 2x p weapon, t. hammer drop pod

I find this list works pretty well, although I havent played GK so I dont know how their warp quake would affect drop pods.

Basically I set everything up except for pods. 2 dreads come in close together and buy me generally a half a round or more of fire absorbtion, whilst i sneaky my way across. Punch stuff in face, land death company near biggest threat when they come in, although they get more attention from the enemy then they deserve really. Smart players ignore them till last unless its near something clutch to their strategy.

I don't get it...Mephiston is simultaneously outside the GK Librarians psychic hood range, yet he's inside his psychic hood range to lock down our powers.

And to be honest I believe the list I use would put on a lot of hurt before you get close enough to do damage. Possibly a tough game, but I have played lists like this before and won. Sorry...not a solid counter in my opinion.

Jabbdo wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:
Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

OK... So some people, who claim to be "GK veterans", claim that my list will fail, and somehow, because they magically claim these things, they're automatically right?

Wake up, mate.

What if I claim I'm fething Jervis Johnson? What then? Because I obviously am.

Unholy_Martyr obviously is because he gave a list for you just to TRY to beat. Guess some one did piss in your cherrios

How bout fielding a Astorah with them ? I know hes not the best beatstick, however making most of the troops (better chance rolling 3) fearless and Fc with 50+ MEQ's can be rampage

I think the OP needs to realize that BA are no solid counter to GK. Perhaps some lists can be built that way, but this is not one of them.

So against purifiers...you charge at I5 and Purifiers still go first if they have halberds (which they will). 2 attacks each on say 4 models...your assault squads are 5 strong. Purifiers will own them. Melta may knock out their transport, but charging someone who gets an armour save (while you don't) and attacks before you is not smart. Take into account the inevitable dread support and you are looking at losing 6/7 infantry a turn. Whittle down the 10 man squads to make them easy prey. When that's done shoot the 5 man squads. And don't even think about charging ven dreads...you will be stuck there the rest of the game.

Mephiston is a beat stick to be sure, but you only have to throw a Grandmaster with rad grenades at him to have a reasonable chance of killing him. Throw in some supporting GK's and as soon as he hits combat he's gone. He may well wipe a squad, but then he gets charged with a ton of force weapons...some will get through his hood.

Against Coteaz lists...well you need to get your hood in range. Which Mephiston will do in 2 turns. And probably only against half the Psykers since a smart player will split them. The rest are gonna be bringing a beating and DCA will also tear you to shreds. Again I6 power weapons. This time at WS 5 though. And your dudes won't be in cover because you are jump infantry.

Khorne Flakes wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:
Yes..... YOURS. Who said you were a vet GK player like other people that said this list will fail?

OK... So some people, who claim to be "GK veterans", claim that my list will fail, and somehow, because they magically claim these things, they're automatically right?

Wake up, mate.

What if I claim I'm fething Jervis Johnson? What then? Because I obviously am.

Unholy_Martyr obviously is because he gave a list for you just to TRY to beat. Guess some one did piss in your cherrios

That just doesn't make sense, but ok..


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Deadshane1 wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

Yeah, because trying to throw out those Psyker blasts is so fun with Meph standing next to your ld8 Psykers with his ld10 hood

.

Oh yea, I forgot, Mephiston starts within 24" to use it....every game....and it's impossible to kill that lychpin before he gets close.

...or am I mistaken and it's possible to get first turn (with coteaz in tow) and get 2-3 turns of fire on your army b-4 he gets close enough to hood me? Unless I blow him off the table first?

1 Turn, actually, most of the time, 2 at most. No way 3, unless you deploy them so that they're out of range themselves.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

No, not impossible, but realistically, what GK shooting is gonna kill Meph apart from rending psycannons? Psyrazors? Psyflemen? Really?

Mephiston doesn't like force weapons. Throw enough of them at him at I6 (halberds), I5 (grandmaster), I4 (regular GK's) and I1 (hammer) and he will fail his hood eventually.

With Coteaz we have a better chance of stealing (30.5555%) and reduce your chance of successfully stealing (2.7%). Thus we are more likely to get first turn and with mobile firepower (which GK's have lots of) we can force you to come us while punishing you for it and simultaneously backing away. You are looking at a turn 2 charge against maybe 1 or 2 (sacrificial) units and turn 3 for the rest.

If you get turn 1 we don't need to be in range...you are moving 12" a turn towards us right? If we get turn 1 we back off a bit and shoot. Rinse and repeat.

bforber wrote:ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Plasma cannon servitors are hardly a common choice in GK lists. Psykers are rarely seen too (at least in my meta) thanks to the abundance of Psy defense everyone packs (and because Eldar makes them kill themselves).

Really guys, think about it for a second. A single Psyfleman will kill 0,987 marines per turn, ignoring FnP. That's really not a lot. Psybolt razors will kill 0,370 marines per turn, with FnP. You need 3 of them to kill a single one. See where I'm going here? The only shooting that you have that CAN actually damage me (mass Psycannons) are 24" in range, meaning that if you're shooting them, next turn I'm shooting you.

Yes, mass Power weapons will kill me. On the other hand, how often do you see strike squad marines packing Halberds? Pretty rarely. And even if they are, one attack per guy doesn't exactly scare the gak out of me, especially when they are usually run in 5 man squads. Same thing with Purifiers, except they'll kill a few more before going down to mass FC attacks. Bear in mind also that before charging those GK will be taking plenty of melta, which will whittle down those 5 man squads nicely.

Meph will almost certainly die during the game. I'm fine with that. If he draws fire, kills 2 squads, then dies, I'm happy. You dont want Meph charging in alone, because if you let him get charged then he dies (Psychout grenades). The trick with this list is picking your combats so your army doesnt fall apart in your hands. Killing off one squad at a time, while taking the charge on the 5 man sacrificial squads lets you wipe out the army piecemeal, instead of fighting more even fights where your squads will take damage. Remember that GK shooting is INEFFECTIVE against FnP marines.


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Lukus83 wrote:Mephiston doesn't like force weapons. Throw enough of them at him at I6 (halberds), I5 (grandmaster), I4 (regular GK's) and I1 (hammer) and he will fail his hood eventually.

With Coteaz we have a better chance of stealing (30.5555%) and reduce your chance of successfully stealing (2.7%). Thus we are more likely to get first turn and with mobile firepower (which GK's have lots of) we can force you to come us while punishing you for it and simultaneously backing away. You are looking at a turn 2 charge against maybe 1 or 2 (sacrificial) units and turn 3 for the rest.

If you get turn 1 we don't need to be in range...you are moving 12" a turn towards us right? If we get turn 1 we back off a bit and shoot. Rinse and repeat.

What are you shooting with at over 24" range? Psybolt razors? Psyflemen? Both of these are ineffective against FnP marines (granted, I wont get FnP against the dreads, but they'll be killing 0,987 marines each.)

When your Psycannons are in range (the stuff that can actually hurt me), that means I'll be in range next turn.


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Lukus83 wrote:I don't get it...Mephiston is simultaneously outside the GK Librarians psychic hood range, yet he's inside his psychic hood range to lock down our powers.

And to be honest I believe the list I use would put on a lot of hurt before you get close enough to do damage. Possibly a tough game, but I have played lists like this before and won. Sorry...not a solid counter in my opinion.

Referring to different lists. One had a Lib, another had Psykers. But ok.

Meph will be out of the Lib's hood range to use wings, yes. When he's inside it, he'll be close enough to charge (and still have the upper hand in mobility thanks to fleet.)

But if necessary, yes I'd run Meph into an opponents hood range to allow him to nullify Psykers.

Purifiers work best supporting each other closely. You charge 1 unit with Mephiston and then you lose him to the counter attack. The melta won't be shooting Purifiers...they will be opening transports. Purifiers also tend to be backed up by at least 5 dreads in a competitive setting. Crowe also can easily go 1 on 1 with Mephiston.

Psykers are a danger for BA. You need to get in hood range, but doing so puts you in range of melta henchmen and DCA. When charging you will also be taking potential wounds from DT tests thanks to Coteaz.

I say give your list a try against a competitive GK player in your area and see how it does.

I have to agree with everyone else on the board. A decent GK list will wipe this list.

Stormraven w/10x Purifiers w/Stave, 2x Hammer, Psycannon, Incinerator, 5x Halberds

^ This is one of my standard load outs. I can keep up and move faster with a 4+ Cover, once in range to assault a 10 man assault squad, kill maybe 1 or 2 in shooting, kill 4 at I6, kill 1 at I4 while you attack (Killing maybe one..), and killing 3 at I1 while your PW Fist is useless with Stave with only 2 attacks. If you fall back and don't get caught in sweep (meaning locked), then you turn all remaining firepower on them (11 Meltas, 33 Pistols) and kill 6ish with melta, killing 6ish with pistols. Only Mephiston doesn't fire at them. Meanwhile the remaing 1500 points in the GK is untouched to decend. Even if you only turn one assault squad against them, Kill 2 or 3 in Shooting, then assaulting loosing 2ish at I6, 1 at I4 while killing 2 purifiers, and loosing another 2 at I1 while PW fist is negated, you lost the assault and may or may not fall back.. That's if hammerhand fails..

My problem with this is that it takes half your army to take down one squad, meanwhile the rest of the army is coming down on you.

It is currently 3:20 am... I am too tired to be subtle so I will just say this plainly...

OP looks like he is trolling... or works for the GW studio team...

Short range weapons and hopes to play to the GK's strength of denying Deepstrikes...

Still plays to GK's strength and picks and HQ with multiple wounds that has a history of rolling armies but lacks an invulnerable save and eternal warrior against GK's army wide force weapons...

:LOL: I would play the above list with my Mekinized ork list and just mob them as they come in bit by bit...

I decided to be helpful and also post what I thought would help against GK... Dreadnoughts... Armor 12 and 13 dreadnoughts would be tough for any GK army at 1750 to take on... The best the GK player could do is shoot with psybolt assault cannons...

Also a Death company with jet packs and power weapons and the special character that lets them re-roll... yes I know that would be expensive but it would be effectively immune to shooting and anything hit in HTH dies...

10 Death Company: 50 attacks, hitting on 3s (or was it 4s), wounding on 3s, re-roll both... power weapons... and I5...

Personally i think your army might struggle against GK paladin army, where I don’t think quantity of melta and FNP would be that decisive. But they are very rare, so overall i would bet on your list...

QuietOrkmi wrote:10 Death Company: 50 attacks, hitting on 3s (or was it 4s), wounding on 3s, re-roll both... power weapons... and I5...

Honestly I wouldn't be that concerned by this unit, out pops my GM and Paladins from the Raven and you have one dead unit before it even lands a blow, also this unit could be heavily screwed by any character in a unit with psycotroke grenades, even without that and just using rads and hammerhand the Paladins could kill 5 before they even strike and then the GM another two or the character with his force weapon, whatever is left over would be finished by the daemon hammer in the unit, its pretty scary for the strikes but thats about it.

Me I don't really find the list in the OP all that scary, I have seen far better less with less models made from a BA book, thing is its not always quantity but quality thats matters, two priests to cover a whole army is just stupid, what if they have a vindcare assassin? why any Grey knight player be concerned by Mephiston, especially in a list with no range threats, keep my raven still and just lob all my mind strikes at him turn one guided by a skull probe then power of the machine spirit the plasma cannons on one of the small units, I think most GK lists could even try assault thing, with me Dread on the lightning claw unit, termies on one big unit, paladins on another, 2 strikes on another two units and GM on a small unit, potentially thats 6 units dead in a turn, if not dead they will be extremely weakened.

Other option is you just stay in you transports, stay over 12" away and the claim objectives last turn, job done.

BA units that worry me, Sang guard with Dante and a million inferno pistols jumping on my arse, death company dreads with blood talons, Baal preds with inferno cannons, not assault marines, main problem with this list is that is assumes that all GK can do is shoot and if you spam them in combat you will win, me I am very happy to blast you with 16 strength S5 storm bolters and 4 S7 assault cannon shoots and then charge you with 14 strength 5 forces weapons and 3 strength 10 thunder hammers attacks

In fact, AM will struggle against GKs and Meph will struggle too since FnP doesn't work in cc against GK force weapons.
As said an alternative could be a Dread heavy army with Furioso w/ blood talons which would make short work with GKs in cc.

The list isn't auto win against GK, but what kind of list is? At least here in Finland GK counter is considered to be a list that can reasonably play a draw against GK and i think this list can do it.

Sorry this is going to be a huge brick of text

Mephiston IS good against GK because GK doesn't have the kind of fire power to remove him from the play. You really don't torrent down Meph with FNP. Meph also brings a psychic hood and also he can kill small squads of strike marines and purifiers and even kill dreadnoughts. Normal marine with force weapon will wound Meph on 6+ and hammer on 2+ so you will probably get the wound off at initiative 1 which means Meph can eat your squad at the same time which means you will lose at least 2 squad to him. Then you need to pass LD 9 check in order to get your force weapons work which folds 1/6 of the time and then Meph nullifies you about 60% of the time. So we end up with a pretty slight chance of actually killing Meph.

I will write more about this list when i have more time.

Herra...I don't think you realize that Grey Knights don't need to have the firepower to drop him, all Grey Knights have to do is sit back and wait for the angry cow to come to them. Grey Knights can take him in assault, Purifier armies would cream their panties at the thought of taking Mephiston down. All that has to happen is a squad get the charge on Mephiston...and you can pretty much write him off after that. If someone plays a well built purifier army, they'll probably gun down the assault squads, enjoy their Vindicare knocking out your fabulous Feel No Pain bubble and then giggle when your Assault Squads hop into combat and lose half of the unit before they can swing. Hell, even still, who is to assume the Grey Knight is just going to sit back and have you come to him? Even poorly built Grey Knight Armies could have fun with this list.

The Paladin list I posted before is totally out of my ass but the fact remains, there is a unit that you cannot deal with head to head. Mephiston can't deal with it, all of your Marines could probably drop a good many of the Paladins but in the end would prefer not to go the route of the dead man.

Here's my friends 2000 point purifier army toned down to 1750:

H.Q.

Crowe -150

Elites

Vindicare -145

Troops

Purifiers 5x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, Razorback with Psybolt -199

Purifiers 5x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, Razorback with Psybolt -199

Purifiers 5x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd, Razorback with Psybolt -199

Purifiers 9x
Justicar w/Hammer, 2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x Sword, Rhino -265

Purifiers 10x
Justicar w/Hammer, 4x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x Sword, Rhino -333

Heavy Support

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo -135

Dreadnought
2x Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo -135

Total: 1750

You're losing both Priests in the first 2 turns...I guarantee it. Now how is that Feel No Pain and Furious Charge Bubble feeling? You can Deep Strike now, super. I hope you do it because every poor bastard that shows up is going to die, I guarantee it. If you had the most amazing reserve rolls ever and got the entire army into Melta range, you would be in for the most phenomenal counter attack you've ever seen. If those Purifiers Multi Charge, they won't even need Hammerhand, they can just all cast Cleansing Flame and snicker at all of the saves you have to make before you even get to swing...oh and that wonderful hood Mephiston is packing? Well he can't Deep Strike so he won't be dong much except trying to haul ass and save his buddies.

Let's just be honest here...you'll be better with something a little less dependent on surprise that isn't there and something a little more hardy. Either with regular Librarians getting you to where you want to be or going with a Dreadnought approach as some suggested. Furioso Dreadnoughts are the bane of any Marine army thanks to their AV13 front and obscene Close Combat Abilities. A Storm Raven army could do you well against Grey Knights...there are just so many more efficient ways to approach this situation than to depend on a linchpin that could be shut down before having a chance to come into play. That's all I am saying.

I think most people are making the wrong prediction, that the BA list will DS. Read Hulksmash's post on his blog. BA rarely want to DS. They do very well running up the field. Also, the vindicare will kill 2 priests in 4 turns. We have to remember cover saves, or does he ignore them?

I personally think my tau list is a better counter, but many people have said that jump pack BA are very good against GK (the infamous stelek being one of them). I don't share a similar fetish towards mephiston as Jabbdo, but I do agree that a list such as this would fare very well against GK.

Purifiers are semi-good in CC. Strike Squads fold like baby tactical marines with a single attack... Oh wait, they have a single attack.

HerraMauno wrote:Mephiston IS good against GK because GK doesn't have the kind of fire power to remove him from the play. You really don't torrent down Meph with FNP. Meph also brings a psychic hood and also he can kill small squads of strike marines and purifiers and even kill dreadnoughts.

This simply isn't true, a stormraven has all the firepower it needs to take him out in the turn, combine that with a 5pts skull probe and you should hit with all 4 mind strike missiles and then just finish him off with a plasma cannon, its hardly as if he has anything else worth using them on, he can certainly kill dreads if he manages to cast any of his powers however thanks to reinforced ageis he is taking his tests on leadership 6 and that doesn't even take into account the GK having his own psychic hood (as most seem to use libs anyways), if he is charged then he is striking last (assuming he made it past turn 1/2).

haizelhoff wrote:I think most people are making the wrong prediction, that the BA list will DS. Read Hulksmash's post on his blog. BA rarely want to DS. They do very well running up the field. Also, the vindicare will kill 2 priests in 4 turns. We have to remember cover saves, or does he ignore them

He only really needs to kill one, the FNP buble is very small and with the amount of troops he has he is really stretching his ability to cover it, i think its very reasonable to assume that the vindicare can kill on and the massed fire can kill the other and his body guard in a turn, especially if you popping out 30+ psycannons a turn into a unit plus all the storm bolter fire.

Dude, just a question, as I always think your lists are pretty cool. How do you figure that 3 Psynoughts will kill 0,987 Marines? I'm crap at mathshammer and using my workings (and probably wrong) it's about 2.83 Marines dead (as no feel no pain which you no doubt know). I theoried that triple Psynoughts would hit 10 times including twin-linked wound about roughly 8 times and after armour saves about nearly 3 Marines dead. Of course though, why would Psynoughts be firing at Marines unless all the Razorbacks have gone and I doubt all of them will be.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:You're losing both Priests in the first 2 turns...I guarantee it. Now how is that Feel No Pain and Furious Charge Bubble feeling? You can Deep Strike now, super. I hope you do it because every poor bastard that shows up is going to die, I guarantee it. If you had the most amazing reserve rolls ever and got the entire army into Melta range, you would be in for the most phenomenal counter attack you've ever seen. If those Purifiers Multi Charge, they won't even need Hammerhand, they can just all cast Cleansing Flame and snicker at all of the saves you have to make before you even get to swing...oh and that wonderful hood Mephiston is packing? Well he can't Deep Strike so he won't be dong much except trying to haul ass and save his buddies.

You can guarantee that your one vindicare assassin will kill 2 models in two turns? He will never miss, never fail to wound, and the opponent will fail his cover save 100% of the time? That's a pretty impressive control over dice that you have. Also, why are you assuming he would deep strike, as you correctly point out that would be a terrible idea?

I'm not saying the OPs list is ridiculous or a counter to Grey Knights (it isn't). But neither does it auto-lose the way everyone seems to think. It may or may not be at a disadvantage, depending on the specifics of the GK list, but with decently built armies in the 5th edition codexes, there really aren't any "Auto-Win" situations.

I've also seen a number of people talking about Reinforced Aegis shutting down Mephiston. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Reinforced Aegis just boost The Aegis, which says if you are casting a power that targets the GK then you are at a minus to your leadership? Mephiston doesn't have any abilities that target the opponent (they are all self-buffs), so Reinforced Aegis would not come into play at all.

mercer wrote:Dude, just a question, as I always think your lists are pretty cool. How do you figure that 3 Psynoughts will kill 0,987 Marines? I'm crap at mathshammer and using my workings (and probably wrong) it's about 2.83 Marines dead (as no feel no pain which you no doubt know). I theoried that triple Psynoughts would hit 10 times including twin-linked wound about roughly 8 times and after armour saves about nearly 3 Marines dead. Of course though, why would Psynoughts be firing at Marines unless all the Razorbacks have gone and I doubt all of them will be.

Its 0.987 marines per dread, IIRC. So around 2,83 altogether. My mathhammer could be off, of course, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong guys.

In no way am I saying that what I have presented in the two lists are "auto-win" situations, what I am trying to show is that most form of Grey Knight lists (not including Henchmen Garbage because its not Grey Knight) will be able to handle this army fairly easily.

Jump Pack Blood Angels work best when they can close fast with an opponent and overwhelming them in close combat. As it stands, you have an H.Q. here that probably will keep up with the army but sometimes may fall short. With that, you lose out on Psychic Defense as well as a major component of the army's threat factor. All I am doing is pointing out flaws and issues with reliability.

Facts that I point out, such as the major likelihood that he'll be losing a Sanguinary Priest (Seriously, the guy is BS 8, his gun basically autokills anything it touches outside of a Land Raider). If the Sanguinary Priest is in cover, all the better for me. That means he had to take Dangerous Terrain on the way in and probably will have to on the way out. He can't hide in his unit and if he uses another unit to block it, guess what, when and if he gets into close combat, he will most likely be out of his Furious Charge and Feel No Pain bubble. These are the inherent weaknesses with the list and the plan.

I've already voiced my thoughts on improving the list. Which, interestingly enough, seem to have either been missed or totally disregarded. The simplest fix would be an exchanging of Mephiston for 2 Librarians with Jump Packs. Now you have constant Psychic Defense that for the most part will be unable to be singled out (outside of combat) and have access to a wider range of Psychic Abilities (Shield and Lance come to mind), garnering more flexibility. Another option is a Dreadnought/Storn Raven Army. As I said before, Fuiroso's have almost no answer in the Grey Knights units that are traditionally fielded. Even more so, you could go as far to do a good old fashioned Mech Spam army and roll out with 6 Predators and several Razorbacks. Target priority will win the day and effective cover usage as well as maneuvers will let you shred the Grey Knights from outside of their major threat range and mop up afterwards.

These are just matters of opinion and observation, no more, no less.

I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

I have a question for the GK players: How much do you fear BA lists with 6 Predators and Las/Plas Razorbacks? I've only had one game against GK with my Razorspam list, and it was against a rather non-standard GK list at 1500. To me, it seems like all the Las and Plas would be a problem, but I'd love a more accurate opinion.

MrEconomics wrote:I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

I have a question for the GK players: How much do you fear BA lists with 6 Predators and Las/Plas Razorbacks? I've only had one game against GK with my Razorspam list, and it was against a rather non-standard GK list at 1500. To me, it seems like all the Las and Plas would be a problem, but I'd love a more accurate opinion.

What do all the predators have and how many razor backs and how many points are you talking about here ?

Khorne Flakes wrote:

MrEconomics wrote:I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

I have a question for the GK players: How much do you fear BA lists with 6 Predators and Las/Plas Razorbacks? I've only had one game against GK with my Razorspam list, and it was against a rather non-standard GK list at 1500. To me, it seems like all the Las and Plas would be a problem, but I'd love a more accurate opinion.

What do all the predators have and how many razor backs and how many points are you talking about here ?

TBH, GK would rape BA razorspam. Dreads>Preds, and even Psybolt razors can destroy (or at least suppress) your razors, while you cant suppress theirs (Fortitude is fun!).

I play mainly Space Wolves and Grey Knights. As a Grey Knight player, my biggest concerns are heavy mechanized armies with high armor values. Land Raiders give me fits, Predators can be a nuisance and certainly 6 Predators is no different. Add in 6 Las/PLas Razorbacks that are almost always going to have a cover save of some sort and now you're at the level of painstaking frustration.


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@Jabbdo

Because Grey Knights have all of this imaginary >S7 shooting that's at 48"? Seriously man, 36" S6 shots decimating Razorbacks? Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it. The biggest threat to Razor/Pred Spam Blood Angels are Psybolt Autocannons...and you're maybe seeing 3 of those in a list...okay, light up all that AV13 with your 3 Dreadnoughts. Enjoy how long that lasts.

Sometimes I think about the comments you make and a serious doubt about your experience with these various situations creeps into my mind...

Actually, str6 shooing @ 36" can hurt razors, because all you need is some kind of damage result and that razor isnt shooting next turn (barring immobilized results). Grey Knights win because they CAN suppress your razors, while you CAN'T suppress theirs. Dreads will make short work of razors, and can the move on to preds. Fire enough shots at them (and bring your Psyrazors to bear on their sides) and GK WILL kill your preds.

"Sometimes I think about the comments you make and a serious doubt about your experience with these various situations creeps into my mind..."

Sorry that I have to put his bluntly: I really don't care. Sorry about that. I really don't care whether you guys think I'm some kind of 40k Veteran or an 11 year old n00b hiding in his basement. Believe what you will. I know that I am a fairly experienced 40k player. What you guys think isn't my problem.

The problem is you speak so "matter of factly" when in reality the most you bring to the discussion is theory and a blanket overestimation of the abilities of many units.

Take for instance your stance on 36" shooting. That's cool and all but what about the extra 12" that Blood Angel player is going to work for? Sure you can move up 6" for an effective 42" range; which is great and all, but where on God's Green Earth are you finding these magical vacuum situations?

Your rattled off tactics and solutions are so one dimensional that I almost foresee rage quitting as a replacement for losses in your personal record.

The fact is, you post here, ask for feedback and respond like a rabid porcupine with eczema. Throwing out rage filled responses while overlooking any input that people may offer. On several occasions in this thread I have offered advice and in not one single instance have you acknowledged it or responded to it. With inflammatory responses like your own inundating threads, its no wonder why people just come out and tell you that you're wrong.

3 Auto/Las Preds, 3 TL-AC only Baals, 4 Las/Plas Razorbacks, Librarian with Shield, 1500 points. Add more RBs and maybe a second Libby as points go up.


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Oh, and in my one game against GK, my opponent had 3 Psyriflemen. By the end of turn 2, one was dead, one was weaponless and immobilized, the third had one arm left.

Now, the rest of his list was 15 Terminators, a Chapter Master and a Librarian, all of which DSed, so I didn't have any other targets turn 1. On the other hand, I was running Dakka Preds that game. I had decent results with the Autocannons, but the HBs were obviously a waste.

Sure, Jabbdo flames alot. That's because like one other well known internet persona, he enjoys it. However, I don't think Jabbdo is the only one overestimating. Stating that a vindicare will kill 2 priests in 2 turns is an example of counter-exageration.

Let's look at an example gk list that I see way too often:

inquisitors with psycannons in chimera

6-7x psybolt razors with 3x5 purifiers and 3-4x5 strike marines

3x psyflemen

What would you start with? The marines? Mephiston? Honour Guard?

BA deploy. You shoot at assault marines (let's face it, that is way smarter). If BA go first, that is one turn of shooting (you destroy one ASM squad). GK might however get 2 turns and hose down two squads (maybe even with priests). After that you have jump infantry that are all capable of destroying your scoring capacity and a couple of squads (meph and larger assault squads) that can kill the purifiers on the charge. The BA don't even care about the razorbacks because you have to jump out to shoot, and psybolt razors just don't cut through fnp marines. Without careful blocking, you might be looking at no more scoring units on t2-3.

It would seem that most have taken the stance that this list is not a GK counter. I'm trying to balance the equilibrium (without nerdrage hopefully) and provide counterpoints that aren't ''You're wrong and an a**hole!''

MrEconomics wrote:I don't have enough experience playing against GK to know how strong a counter the OP's list is to them, but something is getting lost in all the hate. The OP's list is a decent all-around list. I'd probably trade the 5 man Assault Squads for Missile Devastators, though.

Its not really a all round list, its just spam assault marines and melta-guns, iI think if you drop the small squads of assault marines for from DC dreads with blood talons in pods (either drop outside the 12" or if you go first get up close and personal), maybe swap one of the assault squads for death company and take a cheaper character, instead of dreads you could take baals with inferno cannons for power armour killing goodness.

It's pretty much a standard all Jumpers list, minus the Vanguard Vets and adding Mephiston. I don't think it's the pinnacle of such lists, but it's decent.

Played against a BA army with 2 tactical squads with las/plas and a TL Las RB, and a Predator with Las. Also had sanguinor and meph, and 5 SS/TH termies in LR.

This game was the closest I've come to losing or being a draw with the GK. His fire power took out my mobility of the rhino's, and once I disembarked the storm ravens (no more cover) I lost those as well. That's a lot of difficult terrain to get through, and lost quite a few in dangerous as well. I only won because I had a squad on an objective from the start that hardly moved, while he decided not to go after any objectives and instead try to table me.

Las cannons, not melta guns, are what is difficult for GK because they're not in their range and can quickly slow them down. Still need to have something to slow down the disembarking GK from Stormravens, and that's where the TH/SS termies come in.

Jabbdo wrote:

bforber wrote:ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Plasma cannon servitors are hardly a common choice in GK lists. Psykers are rarely seen too (at least in my meta) thanks to the abundance of Psy defense everyone packs (and because Eldar makes them kill themselves).

And your meta speaks for the entirety of the wargaming meta how, exactly? I was making a broad generalization for your broad generalization that your list would as you put it "make GK players cry."

Quote more mathhammer, please. God knows that's how the dice actually roll when you need them to.

You know what guys? feth it. I'm not gonna bother arguing. I'll put up batreps, then maybe you'll understand what the list is meant to do, as you clearly don't ATM. Whatevs guys. The fact is, you can flame as much as you fething want, its not gonna change the fact that this list WILL beat MSU PA GK, which is the most commonly run GK army type in my meta.


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bforber wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

bforber wrote:ANNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Even spaced out properly, a henchmen unit of psykers or servitors with plasma cannons will put down some hurt on units on foot, cover save or no. Also psyflemans will ignore FnP.

I'm not saying your list is bad by any standards, I just think, strategy or not, any small streak of badluck under the TORRENT of fire you'll be under for a couple of turns will leave your army broken to pieces.

Plasma cannon servitors are hardly a common choice in GK lists. Psykers are rarely seen too (at least in my meta) thanks to the abundance of Psy defense everyone packs (and because Eldar makes them kill themselves).

And your meta speaks for the entirety of the wargaming meta how, exactly? I was making a broad generalization for your broad generalization that your list would as you put it "make GK players cry."

Quote more mathhammer, please. God knows that's how the dice actually roll when you need them to.

Of course you build your lists to compete in your meta. What, you think I should build my lists with Australia's meta in mind? Wake up mate. OFC, the majority of all GK lists run in most meta's contain small PA GK units, but OFC you will dispute this and claim everyone runs mass Psyker hechman squads

OK, lets ignore mathammer. Lets ignore all probabilities. OK, your GK army has around 30-40 shots. Thats 30-40 dead marines, right? FFS. Probability is something you gotta deal with if you're gonna play 40k. One grot won't kill 10 THSS. Its possible. But its not gonna happen. You wanna disregard probabilities, that's the kind of gak your looking at.


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Unholy_Martyr wrote:The problem is you speak so "matter of factly" when in reality the most you bring to the discussion is theory and a blanket overestimation of the abilities of many units.

Take for instance your stance on 36" shooting. That's cool and all but what about the extra 12" that Blood Angel player is going to work for? Sure you can move up 6" for an effective 42" range; which is great and all, but where on God's Green Earth are you finding these magical vacuum situations?

Your rattled off tactics and solutions are so one dimensional that I almost foresee rage quitting as a replacement for losses in your personal record.

The fact is, you post here, ask for feedback and respond like a rabid porcupine with eczema. Throwing out rage filled responses while overlooking any input that people may offer. On several occasions in this thread I have offered advice and in not one single instance have you acknowledged it or responded to it. With inflammatory responses like your own inundating threads, its no wonder why people just come out and tell you that you're wrong.

Advice? Really? Mind quoting some of this "advice"? Because TBH, all I've seen from you (or from anyone) is insults, and claims about how the list sucks. Great fething advice, huh? That's gonna help a whole fething gakload.


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QuietOrkmi wrote:It is currently 3:20 am... I am too tired to be subtle so I will just say this plainly...

OP looks like he is trolling... or works for the GW studio team...

Short range weapons and hopes to play to the GK's strength of denying Deepstrikes...

Still plays to GK's strength and picks and HQ with multiple wounds that has a history of rolling armies but lacks an invulnerable save and eternal warrior against GK's army wide force weapons...

:LOL: I would play the above list with my Mekinized ork list and just mob them as they come in bit by bit...

I decided to be helpful and also post what I thought would help against GK... Dreadnoughts... Armor 12 and 13 dreadnoughts would be tough for any GK army at 1750 to take on... The best the GK player could do is shoot with psybolt assault cannons...

Also a Death company with jet packs and power weapons and the special character that lets them re-roll... yes I know that would be expensive but it would be effectively immune to shooting and anything hit in HTH dies...

10 Death Company: 50 attacks, hitting on 3s (or was it 4s), wounding on 3s, re-roll both... power weapons... and I5...

Yeah... you think I'm trolling. WTF are you doing then? Dreads? Really? Wake the feth up. GK doesn't give a feth about dreads. Either mass psycannons own them, or str10 hammers in CC smack their faces in. Awesome "advice", thanks

I'm not ignoring mathhamer. I'm simply not acting like it's canon like some people do, (because seriously, $hi^ happens.)

I'm not disputing that people run mass psyker squads, either. lol Did you even read what I wrote? Broad generalization to counter broad generalization. Nothing more.

Anyway, batreps. Do them and maybe everyone can stop their back and forth flame war.

The MSU PAGK armies while they may be popular in your meta will not be the competitive lists that do well they should be accents to other lists focused around achieving certain things. I have played around 50 or so games vs just about every style of army save for sisters because no one plays them at my store using just about every list from draigo to shooty coteaz to crowe purifier spam to alpha strike 3x dreadknights etc. The current coteaz list I run would eat your BA list for breakfast every single game not a question in my mind.

Coteaz - 100

Librarian - MoT, Shrouding, Sanctuary, Quicksilver, ML3 - 220

Techmarine - Rad Grenades, Warding Stave, blind grenades- 135

Henchman 1 - Arco x6, Crusader x4, Chimera ML HF - 205

Henchman 2 - Deathcult x4, Crusader x4, Rhino - 160

Henchman 3 - Jokaero x2, Servitor x3 MM, Warriors x5 Stormbolters, Chimera ML HF - 165

Henchman 4 - Warrior x3, MG x3, Razorback LasPlas - 122

Henchman 5 - Warrior x3, MG x3, Razorback LasPlas - 122

Henchman 6 - Warrior x3, PG x3, Razorback LasPlas - 122

Psyfleman - 135

Psyfleman - 135

Purifier x6 - Psycannon x2, Halbred x3, DH, Rhino - 220

Vindicare - 145

1999

To get to 1750 I'd just drop the vindi a purifier ML3 and the stave on the tech.

As to how my list would play vs yours you're not deepstriking near me as it would be a terribly stupid idea obviously so most likely I line my board edge with the chimeras out a little to provide the av12 and cover granting me first turn of shooting which will be poured into meph if I'm lucky he dies to it or if you're hiding him back he's a non issue and I go after whatever you have out front.


Turn two puts you into melta range on the chimeras and possibly assault so depending on turn order, higher chance I'm first due to coteaz but not much of course, I pop smoke on each of the chimeras while moving them an inch to provide myself with 3+ cover all around and making you have to hit if you assault. Now if you're playing smart you want that first wave to be light with your main body back a little to counter charge what I send out to hit your vanguard problem here is only thing thats getting out to completely decimate your first wave will be the TMarine with the DCA's and trust me between HH I6 Rad and 16 ws5 attacks no need for the crusaders or tech to do anything you're gonna die. I focus down meph if still alive than pour remaining fire into your 5 man squads if they aren't hidden if they are ill focus fire whatever 10 man squads up front. Now I have no idea how you play so you could just weight of fire my TMarine squad down which is your safest bet because with blind grenades it's a given you're not gonna assault anyway as I said have no idea how you would choose your targets but melta without 2d6 on rhino's with 3+ or the 2d6 on the chimeras also with the 3+ isn't great options either so total crapshoot how that would go but we'll give you the benefit here of the libby's getting blown up and some shaken/stunned results.

Turn 3 I have so much fire that you're gonna lose at LEAST a third of your marines no doubt between 6 TL PG shots, 3 lascannons, 4 autocannons on JUST the vehicles not to mention 6 meltaguns 3 more plasmaguns and coteaz squad firing 3 MM/2 LC, or just 5 MM as it's moot at the range, that's 25 shots that ignore your FNP and depending on how well shooting goes with the first 20 I could just move the chimera up 12 and use the eagle 3x HF and 2 stormbolters to provide weight of fire. If your 5 man squads are up front they're now screwed because I assault them with my dreads effectively tying them till they're dead if not you have a lone powerfist in your 10 mans and if you've played marines before than you know that you're tied for at least 2 rounds barring some incredible luck and depending if you killed the TMarine squad I have them still to assault you as well as the purifiers as well as the libbys squad I would say at worst for me you're reduced to 25 marines left.

Now what do you do? I now have 5, 6 or 7 depending on TMarine/coteaz, foot targets and 5 vehicles for your 3-5 remaining squads all of which can guaranteed kill marines so I will whittle you down due to superior saturation at this point over the remaining turns.

Now this is how this game will play out in just about every scenario with these armies as I run this group in this formation in all gametypes you cannot sit back because I badly outrange you and I have contingencies for if you go first or if you come at me piecemeal, that would actually be even easier for me. I have lost one game with this list and it was vs DEldar venom/blaster/ravager spam it's a really tough list but I've now beaten it twice due to figuring out what I need to focus my fire on. I don't think you can disagree with the logic of my post or rage against what I just wrote I'd love to play you in a game and prove my points as I have 3 BA players in my meta and have faced and slaughtered a DoA list like this so given distance you'll just have to take my word.

I have some GK players here as well and this list just lollerskates all over purifier spam. Coteaz on Coteaz can be highly annoying but definitely interesting as I see Coteaz being the focal for most of the competitive builds but PAGK definitely have their place in these lists as support ala my purifiers or a squad that a buddy of mine uses interceptors with an incinerator they can be used to cover your weak areas and bolster your army.

GK nasty, but this list has a decent shot.

Many of the criticisms of it made in this thread have had basic math or rules errors in them, or presume that there is no LOS-blocking terrain on the table whatsoever.

Small update:


Mephiston 250

2x Priest w/ Jumppack 150

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons, dozer blade 140

= 1750

Possible list. Preds can take hits at range thanks to av13, on the other hand they are vulnerable to suppression and are the only AV targets in the list. An option is subbing them for devs, then hanging back with a Priest to give them FnP during the first turns.

Thoughts?

Jabbdo wrote:Small update:


Mephiston 250

2x Priest w/ Jumppack 150

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

(10) Assault squad, 2x meltagun, Sarge w/ Power Fist 235

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, lascannon sponsons, dozer blade 140

= 1750

Possible list. Preds can take hits at range thanks to av13, on the other hand they are vulnerable to suppression and are the only AV targets in the list. An option is subbing them for devs, then hanging back with a Priest to give them FnP during the first turns.

Thoughts?

I like the Devastators idea more against all-comers. The Preds might be better against GK, as they match up quite well against Psyriflemen.

I've played against a list more or like this many many times. It can move damn fast and be over half way across the board by turn 2 easily. It has a crap load of Marines to asborb fire power so they still hit hard when smashing into the opponents force. The only difference with the other list is it had double Librarians (shield and unleash rage for the win), a Honour Guard unit with plasmas and min/max Devs with missile launchers. The Devs would take out or supress limited armour while the Assault Squads close the gap unleash melta and assault what's inside. The list was tough to beat when used correctly.

IMO the BA list would work better with added suppression firepower from dev squads. They can crack vehicles so you aren't relying on solely melta and gives the assault squads an opportunity to assault as soon as they reach charge range.

I had a game two weeks ago against BA with Mephiston. He ran out ahead and wrecked a rhino. My purifiers unloaded and assaulted him. They had halberds which were a waste on him. I say that because I forgot about the psykout grenades that should have lowered him to an initiative of 1. I'm pretty sure 15 power weapon attacks would have killed him. Instead, because of my newbie move, he killed the unit after two rounds but not before I dealt him three wounds. After which he got nailed by two psyrifle dreads for the last two wounds.

I think the biggest problem GK has that I noticed was that I was holding back on the attack as my rides had been wrecked and he did have 20 guys sitting on his objective. Not interested in walking into that much bolter fire with only 15 guys (crowe purifier list - one unit killed by Mephiston). I have since moved up to 4 6-man units but still need to work out the moving into assault in one piece (more or less).

Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Kind of leery about contributing since the OP isnt looking for opinions, just to argue about how awesome his list is. and i'm not 100% familiar with the BA codex.


Meph isnt' useful, IIRC he isnt eternal warriored and the whole army has force weapons, even so a grenaded up squad should be able to make short work of him.

Lots of FNP guys seem like not a bad idea since it really hurts the stormbolter aspect of the army
Since GK don't use blast templates and You dont need to spread out FNP bubbles can be pretty tight.

IMHO: BA would be better off with pred spam supported by melta units, anything that can start picking away at the GK's and eliminate psycannons if they combat squad, combat squads are your enemy you want big 10 man units that you can assault with multiple assault squads.

13 armor dreads with a built in hood are concerning to GK players once you reach combat..

Grundz wrote:Kind of leery about contributing since the OP isnt looking for opinions, just to argue about how awesome his list is. and i'm not 100% familiar with the BA codex.


Meph isnt' useful, IIRC he isnt eternal warriored and the whole army has force weapons, even so a grenaded up squad should be able to make short work of him.

Lots of FNP guys seem like not a bad idea since it really hurts the stormbolter aspect of the army
Since GK don't use blast templates and You dont need to spread out FNP bubbles can be pretty tight.

IMHO: BA would be better off with pred spam supported by melta units, anything that can start picking away at the GK's and eliminate psycannons if they combat squad, combat squads are your enemy you want big 10 man units that you can assault with multiple assault squads.

13 armor dreads with a built in hood are concerning to GK players once you reach combat..

Actually I am looking for opinions. As for the "arguing how awesome my list is" part, of course is someone criticizes the list I'm gonna defend it if the criticizm is faulty. Which most of the criticizms that the list has received so far have been.

Meph isnt useful? Really? I'm not even gonna bother arguing this one, as most people either see why Meph works or just think he sucks, and its almost impossible to change their opinion on him.

Good point on the FnP/lack of blast templates comment, its kind of the idea of the army

"you want big 10 man units that you can assault with multiple assault squads."

No, you really don't want that. If you assault large squads you WILL take casualties from those force weapons. You want small squads, so you can wipe most/if not all out with I5 Furious Charging attacks.

Pred spam doesn't work because while yeah, those preds can put down razors fairly well, they still die to Psycannons (mass shots will cause rends, and side shots will tear preds apart), and they have trouble putting down lots of foot marines. Plus Psyflemen WILL kill Preds eventually. A few preds as fire support (as in the above list) could possibly work, as you can still get enough FnP marines to support them, but if you take the full 6 you're left with so few marines that your army will fold.

Furiosos will never reach combat, Lib Dreads might (thanks to wings) but will die to str10 hammers when they do. I'll pass.

@mercer - yeah, tried that but his hood kicked in...

mercer wrote:Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Against Meph you should ALWAYS use Force weapons instead of Hammerhand (unless he's at 1 wound, then Hammerhand is the better option, at 2 wounds its even) With force weapons all you need is one 6 and you instakill him, plus the Hammer in the squad will usually autokill him if you get Force Weapon off (assuming you have a hammer, most Purifier squads at least do).

@Jabbdo - Yeah, you're right about that one. Multi wound models deserve to have the force weapons activated over hammerhand. Still, the hood is hard to beat...

Actually I am looking for opinions. As for the "arguing how awesome my list is" part, of course is someone criticizes the list I'm gonna defend it if the criticizm is faulty. Which most of the criticizms that the list has received so far have been.

your problem is that you criticize EVERYTHING, even obviously correct things as if you have a face to save all the way to sunday.
You got opinions from many people in here, all of which you promptly threw away since they didnt fit in with your grand ego.
All from why memph isnt good vs GK to who deepstrike is a bad thing to why footslogging and relying on hoods is a unwise choice.

As for getting into melta range to "own" the GK army. Well melta range is just the same as a GK charge range. Feel free to shoot 4 meltaguns and kill 1 - 1.4 paladin(s) and then get the rest of the squad in your face.

To sum it up, the whole thread says one thing and you say the other so naturally you have to be right and everyone else are simply irritating trolls who never give opinions although on page one and forwards I can count several good ones and they keep coming.

Meph isnt useful? Really? I'm not even gonna bother arguing this one, as most people either see why Meph works or just think he sucks, and its almost impossible to change their opinion on him.

Not bother to arguing? Sums yo up perfectly. No wonder people dont want to argue with someone like you. Good arguing is a back and forth thing you know, not someone who stucks up his nose to the sky and yaps about knowing everything there is.

And frankly I doubt very much that you even have the basic grasp of this game when you cant even be arsed to argument against why a character that lacks inv saves and is susceptible to ID shouldnt be taken as a "counter" to an army where every mini on the table can cause ID and ignore armour saves. Gambling on the other guy failing his quickening so that memph can even get his hits in plus using small squads, plus placing them unsupported, plus letting them be assaulted, plus failing his psychic tests...and then claiming this is the best thing vs GK since the invention of bread tells me all I need to know about you so called "skills".



What is bad to use as a BA counter against GK and claim it to be the ultimate counter to them are:
1: ICs that are instantkillable and then somehow rely on them carrying the battle. (dont bother replying to this, everybody already know this to be true, given a few dozen battles so will you)
2: melta rush. (to kill those paladins that very few ever take)
3: Overly strong reliance on hoods working at the right time in the right place. (GKs often have a hood of their own)
4 Strategies centering around libby powers. (see above)
5: Deepstrike and/or weak AV vehicles to deliver assaults. (anti DE is the GK forte)
6: Furious charge. (quickening and/or halbeards spoil the day for BA unless the GK player is a noob)


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On the positive thing...well, I do love your avatar, cant remember I have ever seen a better one on dakka. Weird but just had to say it.

I'm not really sure why its so hard for people to see that mass 3+4++ is hard for anyone, including GK to handle. If you charge 60 BA marines across the board, about 40 are probably going to get to the GK, and when they do a 10 man BA squad with FC and 1 PW kills a 5 man GK squad pretty much every time, halberds or no halberds (and honestly, who takes halberds on strike GKs?), meaning the GK probably lose around 20 marines in one turn of combat.

After that the BA get a little less good if they can't get off the charge, but it is still definetly going to be a hard fight for the GK, who can't kill very many of the BA in shooting, and if the BA can control the charges decently, they have a good chance of killing most of the infantry, and just having to kill vehicles, which for the most part can't do very much damage to them (they'd want to avoid the dreads in combat).

There are a lot of what ifs on either side, but i think it is still reasonable to say that Jump Pack BA and GK are a pretty even match up, and that if neither side messes up on their positioning and movement / charges (as these things are very important in fights like this), it could go either way.

Mephiston will surely not live that long against a GK list, but I'm confused on how people will think they will get the charge on him? Most purifier lists don't play a libby, so you're not shutting down any powers from Meph. They also play MSU which Meph will tear through in a turn. Are you then going to charge the rest of your MSU scoring units at meph in an effort to get 6s to wound? You will most likely get a few with the daemon hammer on I1, but then meph is hitting you back and possibly taking out a second squad.
You've just most likely lost 2 scoring units and may or may no have killed meph depending on hood. That sounds like a favorable position for the BA player as GK players can't afford to throw units away like that. Especially when there are still 40+ marines coming across the table.
I play both BA and GK competitively and I think this would be a difficult list to face with most current tourney GK lists.


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But labeling this a GK counter is a bit silly as it doesn't really counter anything that GK does. I feel like the OP list would get roflstomped by a tuned DE or IG list as well.

Dok wrote:
You've just most likely lost 2 scoring units and may or may no have killed meph depending on hood. That sounds like a favorable position for the BA player as GK players can't afford to throw units away like that. Especially when there are still 40+ marines coming across the table.

I agree that halbards are generally a non issue if the person isnt purifier or terminator spamming

but, unless my math is fuzzy, a simple strike squad with 2 psycannon and sybolt would put

16 stormbolter shots
10.6 hits
3.5 wounds
.59 unsaved wounds

8 psycannon shots
5.3 hits
3.5 wounds
.5ish unsaved wounds

around 2-ish wounds on average if you get one rend

Yeah its a whole squads worth of shooting and the GK player really has to make his shots count, I really dont see meph making combat in an all-shoot GK list. He /could/ take the vital role of a tyranid-esque "im forcing you do shoot this monster before he eats you" character that spares the army alot of shooting.

I have been playing around with the idea of a bare bones inquisitor with a psyiccolum to take care of librarian/rune priest/ect shenanigans, which do a horrifying 10ish wounds and 2-3 rends on average to a T4 squad with a psyker (without the bolters!)
since GK are so vulnerable to psychic defenses and librarians being good to begin with, I wouldn't be too against the idea of such a unit being on the table in a tourney setting.

A few things:

Lets define a "typical" all-comers competitive GK list, as you might see at a tournament, for example.

Such a list will almost always include most of the following:

Purifiers
Psybolt Razors
Psyflemen
Strike Squads

Choices that I have seen people throwing around here as units that would "destroy my BA list" are just not used very often. Take Librarians for example. Honestly, how many competitive GK lists do you see including a Lib? Paladins? You see them often? Halberds on Strike squad marines? Death cult assassins charging out of Land Raiders with Rad grenade toting Inquisitors rolling with them?

All of these things will apparently destroy my list. And apparently everyone runs them.

You guys see what I'm getting at?

Against typical GK lists, BA jumpers do well, because:

1. Mephiston is a pain in the ass for them (I'll get back to him).
2. FnP makes their shooting ineffective.
3. Melta kills their vehicles dead (Fortitude doesn't matter when your vehicle dies).
4. You beat them in combat on the charge.

Here's something I wrote on Mephiston a while ago. Granted, its a little out of date, as I wrote it before the GK dex came out, but most of the stuff there still makes sense:


"From what I have heard during my wargaming career, there are usually 4 different opinions regarding Mephiston in his current iteration:

1. He's so broken with his t6 and 5 wounds and 6 attacks and str6 OMG

2. Meh, he's not great, too expensive, I'd rather take a lib.

3. He's good for his points.

4. Only n00bs would take him, a pr0 player like me can easily take him down.

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as the naysayers claim? Is he really terribly overcosted?

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Same thing with a daemon prince. For a little over 200pts, you can have a monstrous creature, with 4 wounds, a 3+ save, and t6, AND a 5+ invul (which both meph and the tyrant lack) On the charge, you prince hits 5 times at str6, rerolling hits and wounds (assuming Warptime, for a combat prince.)

Then lets look at mephiston. For 250pts, you get an INFANTRY model, who gets cover saves from having his left toe in cover, has 6 attacks on the charge at str 6, a jump pack, fleet, rerolls hits and has potential str 10, AND has FIVE wounds with a 2+ save at t6, AND, to top it off, has a psychic hood.

What it really boils down to is that Meph IS in fact a hive tyrant, on an infantry base, who costs less than his namesake. He has a potential 24" charge range, possible str10, brings psy defense, and is really easy to hide behind anything really. A tiny wall will give him cover, and a rhino will obscure him entirely. Sure, he will die to concentrated ap fire. But what if you cant see him? Uh-oh. If he manages to contact one of your regular infantry units, guess what happens? They die. What happens when he contacts one of your vehicles? It dies. What happens when he contacts THSS, a TWC unit full of SS, or any good invul save deathstar? He dies. The trick is NOT to end up in combat with such units, which an experienced player can do most of the time.

When you play meph how he is played best, jumping out from behind cover and slaughtering an infantry unit, before jumping to another unit 24" away, you will see what he is capable of. DONT attack units with good invuls/lots of PF's. You WILL die, for no gain whatsoever. Meph is best bullying those infantry units and fire support that the rest of your army has trouble getting to. Sure, psy defense shuts him down pretty effectively, but he is still no slouch in combat. If your opponent didnt bring psy defense... oh golly, this match will be fun.

I find that when you consider Mephiston not as a 250pt character, but as a 150pt upgrade for a librarian, you realise what a bargain he really is. He's Chuck Norris, all for the cheap cheap price of 250pts."

Mephiston works against GK because:

1. He has a hood. Psy defense is great against GK.
2. He kills small GK squads on the charge with ease.
3. GK can't kill him at range in any efficient way.

Sure, if Meph get's charged by any Hammer-toting squad who gets their Force Weapons off, he's dead. But the thing is, if you charge Meph into small GK squads, he WILL kill them before they have time to blink. Played correctly, and utilizing assault squads as blockers, you can block your enemy from charging Meph after he kills that small squad. Then rinse and repeat.

If he DOES get charged, chances are he'll take that squad to hell with him (he'll usually die to the hammer, if they don't get their Force weapon roll off its unlikely they'll kill him at all, so its iffy trying it with only one squad). If Meph kills 2 squads and dies to a third, but kills them at the same time, I'd view that as a fair trade. Don't get me wrong, I EXPECT Meph to die, every game I've ever play him.

Monster post, jheezh


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Pyriel- wrote:

Actually I am looking for opinions. As for the "arguing how awesome my list is" part, of course is someone criticizes the list I'm gonna defend it if the criticizm is faulty. Which most of the criticizms that the list has received so far have been.

your problem is that you criticize EVERYTHING, even obviously correct things as if you have a face to save all the way to sunday.
You got opinions from many people in here, all of which you promptly threw away since they didnt fit in with your grand ego.

Of course if I disagree with someone I'll say so, but I'll also provide reasons and arguments to support my views. Please, show me a single criticizm which I haven't responded to explaining how it was invalid.


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Dok wrote:Mephiston will surely not live that long against a GK list, but I'm confused on how people will think they will get the charge on him? Most purifier lists don't play a libby, so you're not shutting down any powers from Meph. They also play MSU which Meph will tear through in a turn. Are you then going to charge the rest of your MSU scoring units at meph in an effort to get 6s to wound? You will most likely get a few with the daemon hammer on I1, but then meph is hitting you back and possibly taking out a second squad.
You've just most likely lost 2 scoring units and may or may no have killed meph depending on hood. That sounds like a favorable position for the BA player as GK players can't afford to throw units away like that. Especially when there are still 40+ marines coming across the table.
I play both BA and GK competitively and I think this would be a difficult list to face with most current tourney GK lists.


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But labeling this a GK counter is a bit silly as it doesn't really counter anything that GK does. I feel like the OP list would get roflstomped by a tuned DE or IG list as well.

Good points on Meph. Seems like you're one of the only people in this thread who understands how he works against GK

Depends what the DE list contains. Venomspam doesn't like FnP. Mass lances dont like mass marines w/ Jumppacks and melta

Depends what IG is running, but in general you should be able to reach them before they kill you off. Again, FnP is your friend (really, the only stuff that ignores your FnP at long range is their vendettas, and their Manticores, and you can minimize losses against them by spreading out so the blasts only hit 3 marines). Depending on mission/deployment and what you're facing exactly DoA is also an option.

Good points on Meph. Seems like you're one of the only people in this thread who understands how he works against GK

Nope, he's not the only one..count me in as well...

So far I've found that Meph is really useful for hunting GK Dreads, Dreadknights, Strike sqds, Interceptor sqds...well, most GK MSU units. Eventually he'll die, but 90% of the time not before taking out many crucial units from the GK opponents.

In your 2nd post you claimed that your list was tailored to beat Purifier spam and Coteaz henchmen lists. Now I see you claim you are aiming to beat only Purifier spam and no-one runs Coteaz lists. Now I accept your list has changed some, but you really need to put it into practise instead of just talking about your list. Put your money where mouth is and put up a batrep.

IMHO Coteaz lists are the more competitive option. They get cheap troops and transports which while getting access to some seriously damaging weaponry. Coteaz lists probably won't be running DCA and a landraider, in my experience they come charging out of a stormraven. A librarian is a good option for this kind of list, as are lots of dreads. Perhaps something like this:

Coteaz...100pts

Librarian
3x servo skulls
Warp Rift, Sanctuary, Might of Titan...180pts

Ven Dread (psyfleman)...195pts
Vindicare Assassin...145pts

3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
6 DCA + 4 Crusaders...150pts

Stormraven...205pts

Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts

Total...1748pts

Now I don't know if this would be competitive or not at 1750, but I think it would be the kind of Coteaz list that will become more and more common as soon as people realize how under-costed the henchmen are.

I would also put up a Purifier list but alas, I have no experience with them...I dislike their reliance on psychic powers.

Look, i play GK and BA, and i generally do not like Meph very much, as i think he is sort of hit or miss when it comes to being worth the points (mainly because focused las, melta and plasma make him cry, at least in my experience), but i really don't see how anyone can think he is not a scary match up for GK.

First of all, he's almost always going to get to you, as it's pretty hard to shoot him to death.

On average, It takes 82 Str8 autocannon shots to kill Mephiston if he has FNP and cover.
Or 135 S6 heavy bolter shots
Or 540 S4 storm bolter shots. (or 270 S5)
Or 60 psycannon shots.

So, basically, the only thing worth shooting at him is psycannons, but you need 15 heavy or 30 assault, which means that's like, your whole army's shooting twice (my GK army has 11 psycannons...but a purifier list might havee 15), and that your storm bolters get shot at him too, even though they basically all bounce off.

What all this means is, that generally it's probably better to just ignore mephiston, and focus your fire on the regular marines in the army.

The problem with that is that even when focused on regular marines, GK have a hard time killing them in shooting.

My GK army has 8 HB razorbacks, 3 psyflmen dreads, 30 strikes with 6 psycannons, 10 purifiers with 4 psycannons, an inquisitor with psycannon, and a lib with 3 powers. I think it's a pretty good army.

If I ignored mephiston and simply shot at FNP marines, i'd kill 12.3 to 15.1 per shooting phase, depending on whether or not i move my psycannons. That's not bad, i guess...but it's not amazing, either. But, it is probably better than just putting a few wounds on Mephiston, considering you have at the most 2 turns of shooting (probably 1, unless you hug the back board edge) before the marines hit you.

The next problem with BA VS GK is that the BA are faster, and therefore get to control what and where they attack. It is very easy for them to move, shoot, assault, win the combat, and consolidate back to relitive safety the next turn unless the GK position very very well (and even then it is hard for the GK to not have a few weak spots).

8 pistols and 2 meltas, and then 27 S5 I6 attacks and a S5 I6 Power sword kill 6.11 marines, which is more than the regular 5 that most GK squads contain, meaning that in general the BAs are not going to have a problem killing an entire squad of GK a turn if they charge them. The key is to pick the outlying troops in a GK force, and then consolidate away from the rest of their troops to avoid getting charged.

And, even if a GK strike squad does shoot 4 storm bolters and and a psycannon at the BAs, they are only going to kill 3.59 marines (shooting and CC combined). So, you need at least 2 GK squads to make that work.

Purifiers so slightly better, with 4.4.

And, both numbers are assuming you get off hammerhand, by the way. and with libs around, and Ld9 in general, will not always happen.

And, even though they got charged, the 10 BA still kill 2.3 marines back, which isn't great, but it means they ultimately win their combats (as the GK get about as bad in the later turns), assuming they don't run away or get ganged up on.

The chances of killing mephiston in combat are equally (or, more, really) bad.

5 purifiers with 2 psycannons charging mephiston do .75 force wep wounds to mephiston if they have no hammers, and and 1.75 if they have 1.

The activation has a 83% chance to go off, and mephiston will hood it if unless the GK beat his roll by 2 (since he is Ld10 and they are 9).

And, since it's the hammer that does the damage, Mephiston usually still gets to hit, meaning most of the squad is going to go poof, and probably lose more to fearless wounds.

What this means is that ideally you'd assault Mephiston with like 3-4 squads of purifiers in order to kill him reliably, which really just isn't possible most of the time. You actually have to get lucky for most GK units to kill Mephiston, and have to be very lucky to kill him before he pops the squad that gets him.

What all this means in my mind, is that DOA style BA, and Mephiston as well, are all a fairly bad (or at the very least an even) match up for GK, who really do not seem to have a lot of the right tools in their regular listsfor taking out mass 3+(4+FNP) marines, let alone 2+ save T7 monsters that can hood their force weapons, and eat them on the charge.

The durabilty, CC prowess, and speed of the BA allow them to attack the GK where they want to and then back off as much as possible, and as long as they can avoid getting attacked by equal numbers of marines, they are generally going to win the combats, and with things like meltaguns, meltabombs and fists in the majority of the squads, even the dreadnoughts are not going to do well against them, since they only have a few s6 attacks that bounce off of armor and FNP. I would say that this (DOA style FNP BA) is a pretty decent "counter" to STANDARD MECH GK (a full terminator list could give them a run for their money IMO, but those are a bit more rare), though its not really a counter so much as a bad match up for them, since FNP DOA is a good list for BA anyway, and works against most other opponents as well.

All of this being said, i do see coteaz henchmen armies having a much easier time against BA, since they have meltaguns, and are slightly harder to get out of their transports (since regular GK don't really go in theirs at all). But things like dreads and razorbacks are still pretty much wasted.

Anyway, that's what i think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lukus83 wrote:In your 2nd post you claimed that your list was tailored to beat Purifier spam and Coteaz henchmen lists. Now I see you claim you are aiming to beat only Purifier spam and no-one runs Coteaz lists. Now I accept your list has changed some, but you really need to put it into practise instead of just talking about your list. Put your money where mouth is and put up a batrep.

IMHO Coteaz lists are the more competitive option. They get cheap troops and transports which while getting access to some seriously damaging weaponry. Coteaz lists probably won't be running DCA and a landraider, in my experience they come charging out of a stormraven. A librarian is a good option for this kind of list, as are lots of dreads. Perhaps something like this:

Coteaz...100pts

Librarian
3x servo skulls
Warp Rift, Sanctuary, Might of Titan...180pts

Ven Dread (psyfleman)...195pts
Vindicare Assassin...145pts

3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man melta squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
3 man plasma squad in Razorback...92pts
6 DCA + 4 Crusaders...150pts

Stormraven...205pts

Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts
Dread (psyfleman)...135pts

Total...1748pts

Now I don't know if this would be competitive or not at 1750, but I think it would be the kind of Coteaz list that will become more and more common as soon as people realize how under-costed the henchmen are.

I would also put up a Purifier list but alas, I have no experience with them...I dislike their reliance on psychic powers.

The thing is, FNP marines (often with a 5+ cover save from a lib) don't care about heavy bolters (the 5 in your list will kill 2 marines a turn), or even autocannons (you'll kill about 4 a turn with your list). The assassins will kill a fair amount, but can be easily shot and multi-charged by 15-20 marines until they die, and since they are being wounded on 2s, they are probably going to die.

In the rest of the army, the only dangerous things in it are really the melta and plasma guns (though with BS3 all you kill a turn is like 7, and you lose 1 plasma something like each time you fire,) which have to get out to fire, and that means they die (2 marines can beat them...).

The dreads have no real weapons, and die to fists / melta bombs if they do somehow get into combat.

The lib will put up the best fight, but even he will die to a power sword or fist, or even a failed armor save at some point, since he's only going to kill a few marines a turn in CC.

In the end, that list is not good against mass FNP marines at all.

Well to be fair I don't run full Coteaz lists. I prefer a balanced list. This was just off the top of my head. I'm sure someone else can figure out a better way to make a Coteaz list that works.

Anyway, I think that's gonna be my final input for this thread.

Lukus83 wrote:In your 2nd post you claimed that your list was tailored to beat Purifier spam and Coteaz henchmen lists. Now I see you claim you are aiming to beat only Purifier spam and no-one runs Coteaz lists. Now I accept your list has changed some, but you really need to put it into practise instead of just talking about your list. Put your money where mouth is and put up a batrep.

IMHO Coteaz lists are the more competitive option. They get cheap troops and transports which while getting access to some seriously damaging weaponry. Coteaz lists probably won't be running DCA and a landraider, in my experience they come charging out of a stormraven. A librarian is a good option for this kind of list, as are lots of dreads. Perhaps something like this:

I never claimed no-one ran Coteaz lists. I myself run a Coteaz list, for example. Its just that he isn't an "auto-include", as most of the units that I mentioned are.

TBH, a Coteaz list would be FAR easier to beat than an MSU GK list, as there is nothing (if your opponent is playing pure MSU henchmen) or at least less units (maybe a few Purifier squads or some DCA) that can beat you in CC.


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MarshallDin wrote:

Good points on Meph. Seems like you're one of the only people in this thread who understands how he works against GK

Nope, he's not the only one..count me in as well...

So far I've found that Meph is really useful for hunting GK Dreads, Dreadknights, Strike sqds, Interceptor sqds...well, most GK MSU units. Eventually he'll die, but 90% of the time not before taking out many crucial units from the GK opponents.

Yeah, I was referring to all the Meph haters earlier in the thread

Well said, though. Its highly probable, if not inevitable, that Meph WILL die. He dies most games I play him. Its what he manages to take out before dying that counts. (Although against GK, I'd be less keen on suiciding him as his Hood helps out a lot, if its not completely necessary to suicide him to kill a couple of squads then don't )


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Another thing that I find funny is that I'm accused of ignoring criticizms and flaming, and yet when I post up responses as to why said criticizms are faulty, none of the haters reply.


Says much?

Jabbdo wrote:

mercer wrote:Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Against Meph you should ALWAYS use Force weapons instead of Hammerhand (unless he's at 1 wound, then Hammerhand is the better option, at 2 wounds its even) With force weapons all you need is one 6 and you instakill him, plus the Hammer in the squad will usually autokill him if you get Force Weapon off (assuming you have a hammer, most Purifier squads at least do).

I thought he had eternal warrior

mercer wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

mercer wrote:Did you consider casting hammerhead (at a hood risk) so wounding on a 5+ instead of 6+?

Against Meph you should ALWAYS use Force weapons instead of Hammerhand (unless he's at 1 wound, then Hammerhand is the better option, at 2 wounds its even) With force weapons all you need is one 6 and you instakill him, plus the Hammer in the squad will usually autokill him if you get Force Weapon off (assuming you have a hammer, most Purifier squads at least do).

I thought he had eternal warrior

That would be the definition of BROKEN.