So. I know a lot of folks hate the polls but I'd really like to see what Dakkanauts think about the Blood Ravens -- a chapter that made it into 40k canon via video games. With 40k expanding more and more into video games, and even movies, we'll probably see more of the universe developed via those media rather than solely in codices and BL novels. So how are they doing so far?
First of all, you'll be wanting to get the title straight. Blood Angels is in the thread title.
To the point, Blood Ravens are cool because even though I have never played ANY 40k computer games, Blood Ravens represent something new. Also, the have an implied connection to Magnus's geneseed and that is awesome. Thousand sons are an awesome chapters and BR would make for a worthy successor.
I have a dislike of them simply because they originate from a video game...don't ask me why, just my opinion on the matter. Maybe I'm also tired of marines in general and would like to see a greater focus on the Xenos and their sub-cultures, like more Eldar craftworld and aspect warrior fluff or Ork warbands.
AesSedai wrote:Also, they have an implied connection to Magnus's geneseed and that is awesome. Thousand sons are an awesome chapters and BR would make for a worthy successor.
I think this is pretty interesting and it does tread new water, AFAIK. I'd like to learn more about them but I think they are THQ's baby. So unless they move on from Ultramarines (I also like them, TBH), we might never know more about them.
Manchu wrote:You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.
To be honest...one kind of already did. Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.
Oh, and how would you build them in Deathwatch, H.B.M.C.?
There's nothing particularly special about the Blood Ravens that would make them any different from Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, or any of the Chapters already in existence for Deathwatch.
They have 'higher than average' amounts of Librarians and some of them are 'more powerful than normal'.
As for the Chapter themselves...
I don't particularly mind them. The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.
I know a couple of folks that play BR armies. Other than their predilection for librarians, they're a straight up Codex chapter, so as far as actual game mechanics, "counts as vanilla marines" is the rule of the day...
As an aside, I've also seen a couple of people play them as "counts as Blood Angels." Weird, if you ask me...
Kanluwen wrote:Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.
Other than the minor detail that he isn't.
Kanluwen wrote:There's nothing particularly special about the Blood Ravens that would make them any different from Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, or any of the Chapters already in existence for Deathwatch.
That wasn't what he asked. You could very easily get a 'Successor Chapter' style-box for the Blood Ravens without much trouble. They'd just be Ultramarines as far as rules go, but to emphasise their unique ability would be either:
1. A permanent -10/-15/-20 to the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp Chart (whichever was more balanced out of those three)
...or...
2. May change the result on the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp Chart by up to their WPB.
...or...
3. May change the result on the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp Chart by up to their Psy-Rating.
And that's the only rule I'd give 'em.
Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.
You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"
Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.
You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"
Manchu wrote:You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.
To be honest...one kind of already did. Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.
C:SM 5th released in October 2008. Dawn of War 2 released in February 2009. "Now pay attention, Kanluwen!" /Desmond Llewelyn impression
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odh1nn wrote:As an aside, I've also seen a couple of people play them as "counts as Blood Angels." Weird, if you ask me...
Yeah, I don't think that makes any sense at all.
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djphranq wrote:They have a special place in my heart because they were one of my first experiences with Space Marines.
Very true -- a whole generation, perhaps, of 40k fans saw the Blood Ravens before ever laying eyes on an Ultramarine, Blood Angel, or Space Wolf.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.
You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"
I'm puzzled by Kanluwen's comment here, too. No retcon is necessary. It's not hard to believe that Adpetus Terra preserved the genetic record of all the Primarchs. The only explanation -- NOT retcon -- necessary is as to why the Blood Ravens aren't subject to the mutations that plagued the 1ksons before Magnus did his deal with the Ruinous Powers.
I think they're a great chapter that has a good foundation to build on. If they were ever to get their own codex I would build an army without hesitation.
Manchu wrote:I'm puzzled by Kanluwen's comment here, too. No retcon is necessary. It's not hard to believe that Adpetus Terra preserved the genetic record of all the Primarchs. The only explanation -- NOT retcon -- necessary is as to why the Blood Ravens aren't subject to the mutations that plagued the 1ksons before Magnus did his deal with the Ruinous Powers.
That is a good point!
By now, with all of the over the top 'hints' we've been given, it isn't IF they are secret Thousand Sons successors, but HOW are they secret Thousand Sons successors so successfully? Heh!
Don't like 'em. Don't like their name, don't like their similar appearance to the Blangles, don't like their silly 1K Sons back-story, don't like their poncey scout sergeant with his emo haircut. Don't like 'em, won't have 'em.
If there's one thing in 40k I will be utterly unreasonable about, it's these beggars. But fortunately I don't regard the games as canon, so they don't exist.
The Blood Ravens seem like a decent vector for expanding 40k lore. I don't particularly mind more stroes about Ultramarines, but the more variety the better.
Also, I need to go back and play some DoW...I never picked up on the Thousand Suns hints Is this bit in the novels? I haven't read any of the BR novels.
Manchu wrote:You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.
To be honest...one kind of already did. Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.
C:SM 5th released in October 2008. Dawn of War 2 released in February 2009. "Now pay attention, Kanluwen!" /Desmond Llewelyn impression
Really? You can't see how that works? Games aren't in development for a year, Manchu!
odh1nn wrote:As an aside, I've also seen a couple of people play them as "counts as Blood Angels." Weird, if you ask me...
Yeah, I don't think that makes any sense at all.
People see "Blood" and think "Ooh, Blood Angels!". It's just that simple.
djphranq wrote:They have a special place in my heart because they were one of my first experiences with Space Marines.
Very true -- a whole generation, perhaps, of 40k fans saw the Blood Ravens before ever laying eyes on an Ultramarine, Blood Angel, or Space Wolf.
Well unless they used the Army Painter tool. It had all of them in there.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.
You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"
I'm puzzled by Kanluwen's comment here, too. No retcon is necessary. It's not hard to believe that Adeptus Terra preserved the genetic record of all the Primarchs. The only explanation -- NOT retcon -- necessary is as to why the Blood Ravens aren't subject to the mutations that plagued the 1ksons before Magnus did his deal with the Ruinous Powers.
How is it not hard to figure out why a retcon is necessary?
The entirety of the Chapter isn't psychic but they did have a larger than usual complement of Librarians, who were supposed to be more powerful than normal---while the Thousand Sons were ,completely through and through their Legion, psykers.
The only thing to realize about the Thousand Sons is that it's not as though they were all able to do what each of the Cults did. Few of them could see the future, set the air on fire, manipulate their body chemistry, all while raising huge barriers of kinetic energy with their mind. They were organized into the Cults based upon what they were able to do.
The Corvidae, Athaneans, Raptora, Pavoni, and the Pyrae.
I don't mind the idea of Blood Ravens being Successors of a Traitor Legion---but why does it need to be the Thousand Sons, the one Legion that doesn't actually lend itself to Successors due to the Flesh Change or the geneseed which was suspected to be the reason for the huge amount of psykers in the Legion(seriously--even the Terrans were supposed to be psykers. That's pretty clearly not a case of the Prosperan psychic trait, it's the geneseed)?
Oh right. Because there was a line once in a White Dwarf Index Astartes article talking about how Puritans refer to the cautionary tale of Magnus and the Thousand Sons because of the Blood Ravens constantly using foresight to try to defuse threats before they happen.
It'd be far better if the Blood Ravens end up being Night Lords Successors or Alpha Legion. At least then there's a reason for all the nutters we've seen in the Blood Ravens.
Baragash wrote:I would have voted if there was a "they're fine"/"they fit fine" option between the top and second place option.
What? I think there are more than enough options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kanluwen: You still haven't established any need for a retcon. Also, there's no reason to believe that Telion was inspired by Cyrus.
The Thousand Sons Geneseed made everyone within the Legion a psyker.
The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.
We know this because Graham McNeill made a big deal about having powerful Librarians and a larger than normal number of them in the IA article.
As for the Cyrus/Telion connection--you're right, I can't give hard evidence. What I can point to, however, is that out of nowhere a Scout Sergeant who trained all the heroes of the Ultramarines appears mere months before the release of DOW2(at which time, we had already had Sergeant Cyrus previewed and fans had a pretty good reaction to him) and he just so happens to be carrying a 'Sniper' weapon and having all kinds of nasty rules that make him effectively a sniper like Cyrus.
This is not long after the Dark Angels lost their Scout-Sergeant character(Naaman) who had been present within the mini-dex, with the justification of "We don't feel that Scouts need characters to sit with them, especially if they're just going to be snipers", mind you.
However here's a fun fact which I don't know if it was intended or not by the DOW2 team:
Cyrus the Great(Cyrus the II) is the name of an Achaemenid ruler and the founder of the Great Persian Empire...and the Achaemanid is where the Terran members of the Thousand Sons were stated to be recruited from.
So hey. If they can find a way around the flesh-change and the psyker thing or the fact that most of the viable gene-seed was destroyed when the Rubric of Ahriman happened, without having to pull a Goto--good for them.
Games Workshop is involved with the DoW games at least as far as the writing must be cleared by them.
There is a canon ending for each game. Sounds like in canon to me.
Zakiriel wrote:Games Workshop is involved with the DoW games at least as far as the writing must be cleared by them.
There is a canon ending for each game. Sounds like in canon to me.
GW's canon is so sketchy and self-contradictory that I stopped trying to keep up with it ages ago. It's getting to have a poorer and poorer quality of writing too, in my eyes. So I pick and choose what I consider canon, I keep my own canon. Keeps the game fun for me. So it might sound like canon to you, but the magically angel summoning Sisters of Battle in soulstorm don't particularly sound like canon to me. So nuts to it.
Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.
Actually, what we know is that they aren't 100% librarians. The Blood Ravens' individual psychic capacities may in fact be greater than the average Space Marine. And even if they are not, it makes sense that Adeptus Terra would not have created a Chapter from 1ksons stock without giving it a few tweaks. Like crubing their psychic powers to dull the flesh change problems, for example? We simply don't know this yet, one way or the other -- therefore no retcon is necessary. You've got retconning confused with story development.
It would be awesome to see a Blood Ravens codex. I've always liked them because they were the reason I got into 40k. I had never heard of 40k before I played the very first Dawn of War game. The novels are meh, but they are a good chapter in anything that isn't the novels Goto wrote.
I never really had a problem with the BR just wish the games wouldn't compleyely revolve around them and would be nice if they just finish fleshin out there history in stead it is just unknown where they come from. To me thats a freakin cop out for we are lazy and don't wanna write it
Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.
Actually, what we know is that they aren't 100% librarians. The Blood Ravens' individual psychic capacities may in fact be greater than the average Space Marine.
Actually we do. The Index Astartes article that everyone loves to cite about being "clear and irrefutable evidence" of the Blood Ravens being Successors of the Thousand Sons or that "GW was clearly planning on doing this, even as early as 2004" has only one part that talks about the psykers themselves. Page 119, right above the "Home World" heading.
Graham McNeill's Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens wrote:
One of the most remarkable aspects of the Blood Ravens is the large number of Librarians within the Chapter, each exceptionally powerful. Whether the number and power of Blood Raven Librarians can be attributed to the Great Father's tutelage or a tradition of reverence that encourages the Chapter members to follow his example is unknown. Neither reason, however, fully explains how the Blood Ravens manage to cultivate such a high number of Psykers within their ranks or how they raise their power to such high levels.
Seems fairly definitive about a link to the Thousand Sons, yeah?
Well it's not, because on page 117 we get the excerpt on Force Commander Angelos which actually explains, pretty well, how they had "such a high number of Psykers within their ranks". Here you go.
Some considered the Blood Ravens' practice of selecting youths from Cyrene unusual due to the markedly higher proportion of mutant births among the populace. Though such abominations were swiftly cleansed and burned, it soon became clear that these incidences of mutation were linked to a sudden rise in nascent Psykers emerging. Such a vast number of unprotected Psykers could only lead to trouble, and such was to prove the case when the Blood Ravens returned to Cyrene to look for new recruits. Now a respected and courageous captain in the Chapter, Gabriel Angelos descended to the planet's surface and began the selection process. The Blood Trials were cut short, however, when Angelos returned to his Strike Cruiser and transmitted a secure Astropathic communique to an unknown location.
The biggest part in question that caused such controversy and gave so much credence to the theory that Goto espoused with his line of Ahriman calling a Blood Raven "Brother"(because clearly, no Traitor Astartes has ever done that to a Loyalist...) is page 119 of August 2004's White Dwarf under the "Combat Doctrine" heading.
Graham McNeill's Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens wrote:
In battle, the Blood Ravens destroy enemy units with utter ruthlessness and precision. The Chapter's battle plan never varies from initial concept to final execution. Such is the depth of planning and thoroughness that every eventuality is accounted for, thanks to their Librarians' uncanny ability to predict how their enemies will react. The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings.
That's the ONLY mention of Magnus and/or the Thousand Sons, in the entirety of the IA article.
However, fun fact, on the next page there's a part that says "The Blood Angel's quest for knowledge echoes many tenents of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Chapter maintains close ties with the Priests of the Machine God and often joins forces with their fleets of Explorators in their conquest of the unknown quarters of the galaxy." Of course it's a typo, but it also led to more of the "Blood Angels" speculation as well.
And even if they are not, it makes sense that Adeptus Terra would not have created a Chapter from 1ksons stock without giving it a few tweaks. Like curbing their psychic powers to dull the flesh change problems, for example?
Then why the heck would you use the Thousand Sons genestock? Seriously, the ONLY thing that they Thousand Sons were notable for is the psychic ability, which was spawned by Magnus' genestock. If you breed out the flesh change--the psychic powers go away.
We simply don't know this yet, one way or the other -- therefore no retcon is necessary. You've got retconning confused with story development.
What "story development" is there really to be had when you take a genestock known for mutations, instability, and psychic prowess...and then breed out the flaws and the benefits?
You might as well just make them Iron Hands Successors in that case.
Really. I know that a lot of people like the idea, but if it were the Word Bearers to be the primogenitors for the Blood Ravens---it would be making people rage. The only reason Thousand Sons get all these excuses made up for why it would be awesome/cool/whatever is because the Thousand Sons are somewhat likeable.
They were betrayed, essentially victims of a slander campaign by their own brothers to prevent them from stopping the Heresy from coming about.
I can't imagine they will reveal the origins of the Blood Ravens, as Kan's doing an admirable/unrelenting job of pointing out, there's a lot of things that could prevent them from being Thousand Sons predecessors such as the Flesh Change and 100% psykers, however there have also been lots of hints over the years that the (actually/past loyal) Thousand Sons did provide their geneseed. Personally, I think they'll just drop these hints in for various theories every now and then and not reveal it because of the interest (and repetitive threads in 40K background) it creates - it's just another reason for people to play Blood Ravens and you know what GW are like with the whole mystery thing...
---
As for my opinion on Blood Ravens; they're OK. Nothing special in my books, but I have no reason to dislike them either.
I think they're rather interesting because there are so many psykers ("psionically gifted individuals")in their ranks and because they seem to be descended from the Thousand Sons in some way (they are after knowledge). This, to me, is interesting because the Thousand Sons were declased excommunicate traitoris after the heresy.
If GW made rules for them, I think they would have to be able to take captains and chapters masters with psychic powers.
You seem to think that recruiting potential psykers means that their geneseed can have nothing to do with their unusually potent librarians. But why not? A psyker recruited into the Ultramarines can become a Librarian -- a "normal" Librarian, if you will accept the term. But a psyker initiated as a Blood Raven can become more powerful that that "normal" librarian. What are the possibilities?
(1) the Blood Raven recruit was a more powerful psyker before recruitment
(2) the Blood Raven geneseed is different from Ultramarine geneseed in a way that makes psykers more potent
The second option is far more plausible: after all, it's not just one or two of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out. Option (1) could explain Tigurius but not a chapter in which every Librarian is a potential Tigurius.
Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.
Actually, what we know is that they aren't 100% librarians. The Blood Ravens' individual psychic capacities may in fact be greater than the average Space Marine. And even if they are not, it makes sense that Adeptus Terra would not have created a Chapter from 1ksons stock without giving it a few tweaks. Like crubing their psychic powers to dull the flesh change problems, for example? We simply don't know this yet, one way or the other -- therefore no retcon is necessary. You've got retconning confused with story development.
yep I agree with this.
Not much you can do if there isn't that much on the blood ravens yet.
There's nothing wrong with the Blood Ravens TBH. It's a decentish chapter with a very dark past and lots of problems. That and Angelos is badass for a Commander
You seem to think that recruiting potential psykers means that their geneseed can have nothing to do with their unusually potent librarians. But why not? A psyker recruited into the Ultramarines can become a Librarian -- a "normal" Librarian, if you will accept the term. But a psyker initiated as a Blood Raven can become more powerful that that "normal" librarian. What are the possibilities?
Even the most potent Blood Ravens Librarian, with the descriptions we've had of them, are seemingly on par with the "potent" Librarians of the other Chapters.
The other thing to remember is that those other Chapters don't have a tower where they keep Librarians who lose control of their powers and become possessed, horribly warped, or any number of things.
The Blood Ravens, who recruited from a tainted source that was destroyed by the Inquisition, do.
(1) the Blood Raven recruit was a more powerful psyker before recruitment
(2) the Blood Raven geneseed is different from Ultramarine geneseed in a way that makes psykers more potent
The second option is far more plausible: after all, it's not just one or two of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.
Name some of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.
For a Chapter that has as much background as they do, with so many supposedly powerful Librarians--very few are actually named.
Option (1) could explain Tigurius but not a chapter in which every Librarian is a potential Tigurius.
Considering the number of psykers tapered off after the Extermination of Cyrene(according to DOWII and its expansions, at least)...yeah, Option 1 is the way to go.
Seriously. There's a lot that points to Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons Successors...but just as much that doesn't add up.
You seem to think that recruiting potential psykers means that their geneseed can have nothing to do with their unusually potent librarians. But why not? A psyker recruited into the Ultramarines can become a Librarian -- a "normal" Librarian, if you will accept the term. But a psyker initiated as a Blood Raven can become more powerful that that "normal" librarian. What are the possibilities?
Even the most potent Blood Ravens Librarian, with the descriptions we've had of them, are seemingly on par with the "potent" Librarians of the other Chapters.
The other thing to remember is that those other Chapters don't have a tower where they keep Librarians who lose control of their powers and become possessed, horribly warped, or any number of things.
The Blood Ravens, who recruited from a tainted source that was destroyed by the Inquisition, do.
(1) the Blood Raven recruit was a more powerful psyker before recruitment
t(2) the Blood Raven geneseed is different from Ultramarine geneseed in a way that makes psykers more potent
The second option is far more plausible: after all, it's not just one or two of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.
Name some of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.
For a Chapter that has as much background as they do, with so many supposedly powerful Librarians--very few are actually named.
Option (1) could explain Tigurius but not a chapter in which every Librarian is a potential Tigurius.
Considering the number of psykers tapered off after the Extermination of Cyrene(according to DOWII and its expansions, at least)...yeah, Option 1 is the way to go.
Seriously. There's a lot that points to Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons Successors...but just as much that doesn't add up.
@Kanluwen: The most illustrious figure in their history was a librarian. The fact is that we don't know many of their stories, period. It doesn't mean those stories aren't there. You're saying that the Blood Ravens do indeed more regularly have more powerful psykers than other chapters but it doesn't matter because they aren't all librarians or because there are not more named characters that are librarians? That's a strange line of argument.
I mean it's a very simple matter of addition:
Pskyer (1) + average Space Marine geneseed (0) = Librarian
The drop off of psykers is just that: a drop off of psykers. It has nothing to do with whether or not the Blood Raven geneseed makes for better Librarians than run-of-the-mill Ultra-geneseed.
Plus, the "coincidences" are far too striking for it not to add up: the Cult of Corvidae specialized in prognostication and the Blood Ravens are famous for knowing what their enemies will do before it happens? Yes, some people need a shovel-to-the-head kind of statement: "yes, the Blood Ravens are indeed a successor to the Thousand Sons. Hugs & kisses, Graham McN." But the writing is on the wall for those with eyes to see.
For example:
Kanluwen wrote:The other thing to remember is that those other Chapters don't have a tower where they keep Librarians who lose control of their powers and become possessed, horribly warped, or any number of things. The Blood Ravens, who recruited from a tainted source that was destroyed by the Inquisition, do.
I mean, who does that remind you of? Although you'll have to explain what tainted means, other than mutation -- and please keep in mind that every single psyker is a mutant by technical definition.
Even the parts that don't "add up" lend to the truth of it: obviously, it might cause a bit of the stir if the Blood Ravens found out about their past. That's why those who have found out (Davian Thule) have deliberately covered it up .
I'm starting to understand why people warned me away from ever arguing fluff with the Kan... sheesh...
Kanluwen wrote:It's meant to be some kind of great big mystery in 40k, like the Lost Legions.
No it's not. Where do you get the idea that the Blood Raven's history is meant to be a mystery like the 2nd and 11th Legion problem?
It's a mystery for the Chapter, not for the audience. As the readers we're meant to basically know that the Blood Ravens are the remnants of loyalist 1KSons (or derived from the Geneseed - it really doesn't matter either way), but the narrative is that they don't know. It's like a murder procedural show where the audience knows who the killer is right from the start and the story is about how the detectives find out.
Jimsolo wrote:Not a big fan of the Goto stuff. I liked the first game (and them in it), but so far that's been about it.
Goto is a horrible writer and he should not be credited in making the blood ravens.
If we had someone better like ben counter write we would not be debating this at all.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm starting to understand why people warned me away from ever arguing fluff with the Kan... sheesh...
I take fluff very seriously. Background is what I enjoy the most about 40k, and I've been doing my best to piece together 'reliable' sources and 'sensible' stuff versus over the top shenanigans.
It gives me something to do when I'd otherwise be bored senseless.
Kanluwen wrote:It's meant to be some kind of great big mystery in 40k, like the Lost Legions.
No it's not. Where do you get the idea that the Blood Raven's history is meant to be a mystery like the 2nd and 11th Legion problem?
Gee...let's see, because until recently there was nothing remotely that could be pointed at as 'definitive'(and even THAT is subjective. The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot)?
You make a point in this next part about a procedural cop drama, and that's not a bad way to think about it. However, like a procedural there will always be the "obvious suspect"(Thousand Sons) who is in reality being framed and then we get the cliffhanger season finale and have to wait for it to be picked back up.
It's a mystery for the Chapter, not for the audience. As the readers we're meant to basically know that the Blood Ravens are the remnants of loyalist 1KSons (or derived from the Geneseed - it really doesn't matter either way), but the narrative is that they don't know.
The narrative is actually that NO ONE knows. Index Astartes, in the omniscient audience portions even, make a point that no one knows and that there's more answers then questions.
To quote...
"The Blood Ravens' gene-seed is relatively stable, though the high proportion of Psykers in the Blood Ravens ranks has resulted in their gene-seed tithe being tested on a more regular basis than most. Thus far, there has been little evidence of mutation and nothing that points to the gene-seed as the source of the Blood Ravens' disproportionate number of Psykers or the high level of power they exhibit.
There has been much speculation about which of the Founding Chapters the Blood Ravens' gene-seed was derived. Both the Blood Angels and Raven Guard have been suggested, but these speculations are likely based simply on the similarity in names between the Chapters. Rumor has also persisted that the Blood Ravens may be derived from the Dark Angels gene-seed, but no facts have ever been presented to established a definitive single source of the genetic material that makes up the Chapter."
There's a bit more, talking about how the Blood Ravens origin is something that they seek over anything else in their search for knowledge.
It's like a murder procedural show where the audience knows who the killer is right from the start and the story is about how the detectives find out.
Like I said, this isn't a bad way to think about it. But don't think of it as a murder procedural.
Think of it like Burn Notice's plot, spanning from S1 to 4.
The more clues we get, the closer we think to having unraveled the mystery...and the more questions that get raised because we also have pieces that looked so reliable and don't fit.
Manchu wrote:The drop off of psykers is just that: a drop off of psykers. It has nothing to do with whether or not the Blood Raven geneseed makes for better Librarians than run-of-the-mill Ultra-geneseed.
And as I said earlier, if the gene-seed is stable enough to prevent the flesh change...then they're not going to have powerful psykers in all likelihood. The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.
Plus, the "coincidences" are far too striking for it not to add up: the Cult of Corvidae specialized in prognostication and the Blood Ravens are famous for knowing what their enemies will do before it happens?
You know who else is famous for knowing what their enemies will do before it happens?
-The Eldar.
-The Emperor.
-The Tau, through the Water Caste.
-The Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and more through their usage of Scouts and Librarians both.
The level of foresight the Blood Ravens have is seemingly unusual, sure. But(and there's a big one here) it's not actually that uncommon. It's all about the skeins of fate and reading the signs properly.
It also doesn't look so great when you realize that Azariah Vidya, the Great Father of the Blood Ravens, spent months studying the enemy's movements, tactics, and even their histories in addition to his divinations.
Yes, some people need a shovel-to-the-head kind of statement: "yes, the Blood Ravens are indeed a successor to the Thousand Sons. Hugs & kisses, Graham McN." But the writing is on the wall for those with eyes to see.
Which is another reason I don't trust it. McNeill had said at one point that he didn't want them to be confined to one thing or another.
If I had to, 100% ballpark what McNeill's plans are...
I would say that he's not going to have the Blood Ravens being derived from any one Legion. They're going to be feasibly derived from as many Legions as possible with their gene-seed.
I mean, who does that remind you of? Although you'll have to explain what tainted means, other than mutation -- and please keep in mind that every single psyker is a mutant by technical definition.
Every single is a mutant by technical definition, but they don't become gibbering monsters when simply utilizing their powers(which the Thousand Sons had happen to them) in a great many cases. It's when they lose control of their powers or push themselves too far, too often.
The "tainted" part is kind of sketchy. It doesn't say hardly anything on it, just talking about a place they have on their Battle Barge, the Omnis Arcanum, which they call "The Tower". Failed Librarian candidates are taken there and studied, to see what failed and how it can be prevented in the next candidate.
Is it possible the Blood ravens could have their geneseed engineered so that it shares similarities to the dark angels and the thousand sons?
And instead of a flesh change they get very bad luck.
And dark angels have similar problems half of their chapter goes rouge etc.
Asherian Command wrote:
And dark angels have similar problems half of their chapter goes rogue etc.
You keep bringing this up.
Yet, you keep failing to recognize the reason for it. It wasn't a defect in the gene-seed. It was a betrayal, pure and simple.
Luther and those who returned to Caliban(which wasn't half of the Legion. It was a Chapter, of which only half went Rogue...but they took the newest Initiates to the Legion with them) felt they had been shunned by The Lion and the Imperium.
They decided to secede from the Imperium as a result, heeding Luther and his cadre, who had been training them and indoctrinating them through his own version of the "Inner Circle".
Kanluwen wrote:The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot
Wat.
So it simply makes too much sense? Keep in mind that the author of the IA article and the author of Propsero Burns are one and the same. Yes, too much sense.
Kanluwen wrote:The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.
Throne on Terra, it's like you don't even remember your own posts. Which is it -- they exhibit no signs of the flesh change or they lock up their librarians for getting all warped and possessed? And guess what -- it's the librarians. Now what was it you just said about a 'trade off' between flesh change and psychic ability?
Don't worry, I quoted it above. Read it nine times -- a significant number that -- nine times until you finally grasp that you're only arguing with yourself. I believe it was H.B.M.C. who once told me (and I paraphrase) "if you're not going to read my posts, at least read your own posts."
I don't buy the idea of Blood Ravens being genemutts. To me, it makes much more sense that Ahriman himself had a hand in the founding of the Blood Ravens.
Kanluwen wrote:The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot
Wat.
So it simply makes too much sense? Keep in mind that the author of the IA article and the author of Propsero Burns are one and the same. Yes, too much sense.
Kanluwen wrote:The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.
Throne on Terra, it's like you don't even remember your own posts. Which is it -- they exhibit no signs of the flesh change or they lock up their librarians for getting all warped and possessed? And guess what -- it's the librarians. Now what was it you just said about a 'trade off' between flesh change and psychic ability?
Don't worry, I quoted it above. Read it nine times -- a significant number that -- nine times until you finally grasp that you're only arguing with yourself. I believe it was H.B.M.C. who once told me (and I paraphrase) "if you're not going to read my posts, at least read your own posts."
I don't buy the idea of Blood Ravens being genemutts. To me, it makes much more sense that Ahriman himself had a hand in the founding of the Blood Ravens.
Hell Ahriman's Apperentice i forget his name could be Azariah.
Kanluwen wrote:The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot
Wat.
So it simply makes too much sense? Keep in mind that the author of the IA article and the author of Propsero Burns are one and the same. Yes, too much sense.
Dan Abnett wrote "Prospero Burns".
Graham McNeill wrote "A Thousand Sons".
Let's not forget however there's a six year gap.
So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?
Kanluwen wrote:The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.
Throne on Terra, it's like you don't even remember your own posts. Which is it -- they exhibit no signs of the flesh change or they lock up their librarians for getting all warped and possessed? And guess what -- it's the librarians. Now what was it you just said about a 'trade off' between flesh change and psychic ability?
Don't worry, I quoted it above. Read it nine times -- a significant number that -- nine times until you finally grasp that you're only arguing with yourself. I believe it was H.B.M.C. who once told me (and I paraphrase) "if you're not going to read my posts, at least read your own posts."
If you're going to quote, quote it all.
And as I said earlier, if the gene-seed is stable enough to prevent the flesh change...then they're not going to have powerful psykers in all likelihood. The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.
The Flesh Change is something that happened to Magnus' progeny, no matter what. If it hadn't been for his 'deal', then every single one of them would have been affected by it. Remember how there was talk of it affecting them all before they found Magnus?
Yeaaah. Every single one of them, with some being able to control or suppress it.
The Blood Ravens' Librarian Initiates are the ones taken to The Tower, if they fail the tests to ascend to membership in the Librarium. They aren't just locking Librarians up all willy-nilly, it's those who fail the tests and are overcome by their power. This isn't restricted to the Blood Ravens either, if the Index Astartes article on Librarians is to be believed.
Oh, the ones taken to The Tower also can't be the ones who die in agony during the testing or are swiftly executed as 'potential conduits for warp creatures'. They have to be those who fail the testing, but are 'so ravaged by it that they are no longer sane, or in some cases, even humanoid. These poor, unfortunate individuals are taken in warded chains to a shuttered, lonely place on the Omnis Arcanum known simply as "The Tower" where the failures are studied by the Chapter's Librarians to understand why the aspirants failed and what might be done to train and hone the minds of those who are yet to be tested'.
This line of argument is my own fault though, because I can't be bothered to write up the entire article right now and am quoting it in bits and pieces.
I don't buy the idea of Blood Ravens being genemutts. To me, it makes much more sense that Ahriman himself had a hand in the founding of the Blood Ravens.
...Yes, because he called them "Brother"!!!11!!11!!!11!!
All honesty, Ahriman can have as much of a hand as he wants in it. He still royally screwed the pooch with his Rubric.
Edit was because I forgot to finish my thought on the first paragraph.
Simply just a filler chapter so they could create a video game that wouldnt piss any one off by favouriting another chapter like using a the Ultramarines or what ever.
Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?
No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .
One of my favorite chapters, when I started my Marine army I was going to make them Blood Ravens but switched before I began. Davian Thule is my favorite character in the 40k universe ever since Dark Crusade game out. Dark Crusade is what got me into 40k. Gabriel Angelos is also pretty BA. Just resently played kill teams on my 360 and was surprised but greatly delighted to find the Blood Ravens were playable skins. All in all my favorite chapter is still the Soul Drinkers but man if either of these got a codex I would never change even if they were outdated
The main reason why I like Thule is that he shows human emotions, during the events on Kronos he knew he had to purge the planet which is why he tried to get the imperial forces to leave, and was resentful towards purging them but since the imperials stayed thy had to face 3 full companies of space marines. Even after the defeat of imperial forces by Davian and his brothers he let the survivors go and cleansed those who rebelled. To me he shows good leadership and is a skilled warrior. Haven't played much of Dow 2 so I don't know what happens to him in the campain besides finding out he gets implemented into dreadnought Armour.
The author himself has stated the "Blood Raven" divination in A Thousand Sons wasn't meant to be taken as, "Hey, guys, he's seeing the Blood Ravens in the future!" Also, A D-B has said, if I recall correctly, that GW is never going to clarify exactly where the Blood Ravens came from.
On that issue, though, having them as Thousand Sons successors retcons years upon years of established fluff: the Imperium doesn't stand up new chapters with "tainted" Traitor geneseed. There's just no need to do it. Need a chapter full of psykers? The Grey Knights pulled it off without using Thousand Sons' geneseed.
Seaward wrote:The author himself has stated the "Blood Raven" divination in A Thousand Sons wasn't meant to be taken as, "Hey, guys, he's seeing the Blood Ravens in the future!"
TheSGC wrote:I have one teeny little question: page 430 line 14 and onwards of "A Thousand Sons" has this line, which I found on Lexicanum and that I do remember reading explicitly. 'It's too late... the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne... no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!'
Ravens, ravens, ravens...was that a reference to the Blood Ravens, Mr. McNeill?
Graham McNeill wrote:Ah, well that would be telling, wouldn't it?
Seaward wrote:On that issue, though, having them as Thousand Sons successors retcons years upon years of established fluff: the Imperium doesn't stand up new chapters with "tainted" Traitor geneseed.
That's not a retcon. That the Imperium doesn't use traitor geneseed is not an important plot point; it's just an assumption that we make because we don't see the Imperium doing this. If Adeptus Astartes decided to do it, it would not be out of character: secret projects that reveal terrible truths? That's the name of the GrimDark game.
You guys have really got to sort out the difference between story development (where you learn about things that were previously not established, no matter what seemed reasonable to assume about it) and retconning (where there is a change in detail contrary to something that has in fact been established already).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:It's vague, and anyone can see what they want out of it.
Ravens of blood who are lost sons looking for knowledge? Yeah that could really be anything. It probably refers to the Ultramarines.
Seaward wrote:On that issue, though, having them as Thousand Sons successors retcons years upon years of established fluff: the Imperium doesn't stand up new chapters with "tainted" Traitor geneseed.
That's not a retcon. That the Imperium doesn't use traitor geneseed is not an important plot point; it's just an assumption that we make because we don't see the Imperium doing this. If Adeptus Astartes decided to do it, it would not be out of character: secret projects that reveal terrible truths? That's the name of the GrimDark game.
The Adeptus Astartes has no access to traitor geneseed. Seriously, this has been a major "unchanged fact" for a long time.
The Traitor Legions, what geneseed of theirs is left, was locked away by the Emperor inside of a psy-locked vault that ONLY the Emperor can open. He's not going to be doing much opening
You guys have really got to sort out the difference between story development (where you learn about things that were previously not established, no matter what seemed reasonable to assume about it) and retconning (where there is a change in detail contrary to something that has in fact been established already).
Story Development would be that the Imperium found a way to cleanse the Thousand Sons genestock or that they have somehow found a way to 'create' psykers on the level of Spear.
Retconning would be the Imperium having Thousand Sons genestock, which was pretty much entirely destroyed when the Rubric of Ahriman(which according to the fluff turned all of the 'Lesser' members of the Thousand Sons into dust) went into effect with some of it POTENTIALLY being inside of the psy-locked vault that the Emperor has, floating around and someone created the Blood Ravens using it despite there being clear evidence that it's Thousand Sons genestock.
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Manchu wrote:Ravens of blood who are lost sons looking for knowledge? Yeah that could really be anything. It probably refers to the Ultramarines.
Gonna quote you something here.
A bloodstained hurricane swept across a desolate hillside, its furious roar a hundred thousand throats crying out in agony. Crimson winds turned to a raging inferno, setting all ablaze. The sky burned and a multitude of dark shapes flocked into the air, their wings alight sparks straining from their dark feathers. Dying shouts became the cawing of ravens, a rising cacophany that drowned out the wail of the storm.
...
Blood and fire, always the same, fire and blood.
Where is this fluff about the Emperor locking away geneseed in a vault only he can open coming from? Plus, how do you know that the Emperor is not still active in the world -- that's just your assumption, and I shouldn't have to remind you that the status of the Emperor is a hotly contested subject about which there is no final word in the fluff. IIRC, the Adpetus Astartes possesses the traitor geneseed. If they used it to create a chapter -- well, this does not contradict any established point. There is no retcon.
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Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?
My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.
Manchu wrote:Where is this fluff about the Emperor locking away geneseed in a vault only he can open coming from?
It's been in there for awhile, at least as long as I've been interested in 40k.
Plus, how do you know that the Emperor is not still active in the world -- that's just your assumption, and I shouldn't have to remind you that the status of the Emperor is a hotly contested subject about which there is no final word in the fluff.
Sure, it's possible the Emperor is still active in the world...but I can't see him opening up the box containing the literal Fruit of the Poisoned Tree.
IIRC, the Adpetus Astartes possesses the traitor geneseed.
They do not. The Adeptus Terra and the High Lords control the vault that has Traitor geneseed...but they can't open it.
The High Lords of Terra are what creates new Chapters, although they can be petitioned by the Astartes to create a new Chapter. It's how the Disciples of Caliban(yes, I'm using a link to Lexicanum. It's because I am not really too concerned with typing up the piece from the Dark Angels book right now) came about, and that specifically makes note of how the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels had to make a really strong case to have the Chapter formed.
If they used it to create a chapter -- well, this does not contradict any established point. There is no retcon.
Other than it's never been done, and the Adeptus Terra--which is the embodiment of the Emperor's will, cannot access the geneseed vault.
Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?
My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.
Which is the point I've been trying to make and always get shouted down about.
Prophecies are vague. The prophecy in question from "A Thousand Sons" happened before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre. Magnus tried to warn The Emperor about Istvaan, but was too late.
If you want it to read that it's definitive proof of Blood Ravens, you're going to see it as definitive proof of Blood Ravens. It's purposely worded like that.
Manchu wrote:If they used it to create a chapter -- well, this does not contradict any established point. There is no retcon.
Other than it's never been done, and the Adeptus Terra--which is the embodiment of the Emperor's will, cannot access the geneseed vault.
On the vault business, we'll have to disagree. Assuming there is such a thing, there's nothing to prevent it from being opened by the Emperor so the whole point is moot. The bolded part is the real probelm: just because a thing has not happened before does not mean it happening is a retcon.
Kanluwen wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?
My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.
Which is the point I've been trying to make and always get shouted down about.
But I do have more context in the case of the "raven of blood" prophecy. I know who spoke it, I know about that character, I know about other developments thousands of years later that seem connected to it, I know about the common author as between two sources on the subject, I know that the author has not (contrary to what Seaward asserted) said that they are definitely not connected, and so on.
What you gave me was a couple of lines, period. Can't you see the difference?
My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.
Which is the point I've been trying to make and always get shouted down about.
But I do have more context in the case of the "raven of blood" prophecy. I know who spoke it, I know about that character, I know about other developments thousands of years later that seem connected to it, I know about the common author as between two sources on the subject, I know that the author has not (contrary to what Seaward asserted) said that they are definitely not connected, and so on.
Yes, we know who spoke the "raven of blood" prophecy.
A human psyker, a Remembrancer, has the prophecy.
As usual though, people left off the part that DOESN'T aid the Blood Ravens angle.
It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!
Let's break it down.
-Wolf at the door can refer to either the Sons of Horus(Luna Wolves) OR Space Wolves. Given that Horus was referred to as "Lupercal", it's not a bad assumption to say it's Horus.
-The Ravens can sure, refer to the Blood Ravens...or the Raven Guard.
-"Cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"...the punishment fleet sent to Istvaan asked Horus why he betrayed the Emperor. He never says why. They try to redeem him, and beg him to repent...he refuses.
-"Brother betrayed, brother murdered". Ferrus Manus was killed by Fulgrim on Istvaan, his head presented to Horus as a trophy. We never know what happens to Vulkan aside from he somehow escapes and/or isn't killed there.
This one, of course, can also refer to Leman Russ and Magnus. If Russ was at Istvaan rather than Prospero, Ferrus wouldn't have been killed and Magnus betrayed by the Emperor.
-"The worst mistake" is that they thought that Magnus had gone renegade, and needed to be put down. The irony of it is that they thought that Horus was loyal, but Magnus the traitor.
What you gave me was a couple of lines, period. Can't you see the difference?
What I gave you was the opening to "Raven's Flight", the vision given to Marcus Valerius in his dreams, while Corax is fighting for his life on Istvaan and Valerius uses the vision to insist that they leave Deliverance undefended to retrieve Corax.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should also add that Graham McNeill, who wrote the Blood Ravens Index Astartes, has nothing at all inside of the Blood Ravens IA that suggests they are Successors of the Thousand Sons.
There is one mention of Magnus, and it's of puritans whispering of the tale of Magnus if the Blood Ravens don't stop acting like they know the future 100%.
My No.1 favorite Space Marines. They are all that Space Marines are: loyal, brave, reasonable and ready to give their life for the protection of the Emperor's people.
And characters are good to ( Gabriel, Tarkus, Thule, Apollo, Cyrus, Martelus... ). I hope to see more of them in games as well on table. I think they should get their own codex ( like chapter with largest number of librarians ).
@Kanluwen: Hold on: I'm not saying that the prophecy cannot refer to more than one set of events. I'm not even saying that the prophecy cannot refer to the Istvaan massacre. The point I'm arguing against is your assertion that there is no reason, or at least no good reason, to believe that the prophecy speaks to the Blood Ravens. It quite clearly could refer to the Blood Ravens.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Brother Coa: I'd like to see more development of particular SM characters in games and movies. I think that's a big draw of the Blood Ravens.
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: Hold on: I'm not saying that the prophecy cannot refer to more than one set of events. I'm not even saying that the prophecy cannot refer to the Istvaan massacre. The point I'm arguing against is your assertion that there is no reason, or at least no good reason, to believe that the prophecy speaks to the Blood Ravens. It quite clearly could refer to the Blood Ravens.
I think you're misunderstanding my assertion then.
The point I've tried to get across has pretty much been that the prophecy can be whatever people want it to be. It's purposefully vague.
The problem is that we originally had people all over the web posting JUST the line about "A Raven of Blood"(Which it's "a Raven of blood". Cite it right, or don't cite it jerks! ) when they got their books prior to the majority of readers.
It's not hard to put forth the argument that people were put into that mindset when they read it if someone had already said "It's about Blood Ravens!", don't you think?
Yes: but how were they put into that mindset? By another BL novel; by a GW-licensed video game series, and -- to some extent, though not explicitly -- by the very author of those same words.
Manchu wrote:Yes: but how were they put into that mindset? By another BL novel; by a GW-licensed video game series, and -- to some extent, though not explicitly -- by the very author of those same words.
By the same vein that people were originally arguing that Blood Ravens were a Blood Angels or Raven Guard Successor?
People see "Raven of blood" and scream "BLOOD RAVENS!" like they've solved some great mystery of the universe.
Sure, saying "it's absolutely solved" is ridiculous at this point. But the case is built up pretty well and I think the best point in this thread is H.B.M.C. reminding us that the real mystery is "in-universe" rather than for the fans.
An example of the "in-universe" mystery is where Lion El'Jonson is. The Dark Angels don't know, the Imperium doesn't know.
Only we, and the Watchers in the Dark, know.
The case for Thousand Sons is really tentative and built upon a lot of assumptions and retcons at this point, and every 'definitive' piece of evidence just raises more and more questions.
htj wrote:Don't like 'em. Don't like their name, don't like their similar appearance to the Blangles, don't like their silly 1K Sons back-story, don't like their poncey scout sergeant with his emo haircut. Don't like 'em, won't have 'em.
If there's one thing in 40k I will be utterly unreasonable about, it's these beggars. But fortunately I don't regard the games as canon, so they don't exist.
Page 112 of the 5th ed Space Marine Codex... MUAHAHAHAHA!
I like the BRs just fine, kinda hard to imagine that they won't get pwned by the Inquisition now, though, I mean the DAs must have some logical reason for being terrified of people finding out that their legion did much the same thing as what happened to the BRs.
htj wrote:Don't like 'em. Don't like their name, don't like their similar appearance to the Blangles, don't like their silly 1K Sons back-story, don't like their poncey scout sergeant with his emo haircut. Don't like 'em, won't have 'em.
If there's one thing in 40k I will be utterly unreasonable about, it's these beggars. But fortunately I don't regard the games as canon, so they don't exist.
Page 112 of the 5th ed Space Marine Codex... MUAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah, there was way too much fanfic in that 'dex. Man, that Mary Sue story about the Ultramarines? Terrible.
I like The Blood Ravens, they add a bit of flavor to the horde of Marines that seem to flood the tabeltop, and besides. They have their own vide game series, what more do I need?
Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?
No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .
I think they stated writing them at the same time and they were actually supposed to come out at the same time but Abnett came down with a small bout of...epilepsy.
Anyway, I like the Blood Ravens. Good name, good look to them. New background is always good. Haven't played DoW2 so I know there's something fishy about them...
I like how different companies working with GW seem to make their own pet chapters. Relic has the Blood Ravens and FW has the Red Scorpions.
I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between "comments" and "selections." I'll use your comment as an example: they were only designed to sell a product. Fine but that is true of every single Chapter that has been published in a GW or GW-licensed book/audiobook/movie/videogame/whatever. That doesn't really explain how you feel about Blood Ravens as opposed to Space Wolves or Word Bearers or Bad Moons or Craftworld Ulthwe or the Cadian 88th Armored Regiment, either as "characters" in a story or even as products.
Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?
No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .
I think they stated writing them at the same time and they were actually supposed to come out at the same time but Abnett came down with a small bout of...epilepsy.
Indeed. They were supposed to be released at the same time as a 'one-two punch', but Abnett had a scary experience and was diagnosed with epilepsy. It also pushed back pretty much everything he was working on, like "Salvation's Reach". That's why we ended up getting "The Sabbat Worlds" compilation. It was something that let him, from what I remember him talking about, 'ease' himself back into writing.
Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?
No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .
I think they stated writing them at the same time and they were actually supposed to come out at the same time but Abnett came down with a small bout of...epilepsy.
Indeed. They were supposed to be released at the same time as a 'one-two punch', but Abnett had a scary experience and was diagnosed with epilepsy. It also pushed back pretty much everything he was working on, like "Salvation's Reach". That's why we ended up getting "The Sabbat Worlds" compilation. It was something that let him, from what I remember him talking about, 'ease' himself back into writing.
Still, I know SPEHSS MAHREENS! are the main selling point of 40K, but I would much rather see a movie/game in the viewpoint of a Guardsmen, showing just how much of a difference between humans and Marines there is. Sort of a Watson to our chainsword weilding Sherlock.
Looking at the results so far, I wonder if people like the Blood Ravens or just dislike C. S. Goto. What if I had written "they're just more miserable crap from Goto"? Would most people chose that one instead. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Goto at all . . . On the other hand, I thought it was important to separate out the existence of the Blood Ravens from Goto's attempt to write in the GrimDark.
The existence of Blood Ravens is not, by itself a bad thing.
The problem is that Goto did some ridiculous things, and is the biggest originator that can be linked to the whole "Thousand Sons Successor!11!!" theory. Prior to that, the Index Astartes had(as I've pointed out so many times it's second nature) only mentioned Magnus in passing.
Then Goto wrote a line where Ahriman calls one of the Astartes "Brother" and the gak hit the fan.
Manchu wrote:I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between "comments" and "selections." I'll use your comment as an example: they were only designed to sell a product. Fine but that is true of every single Chapter that has been published in a GW or GW-licensed book/audiobook/movie/videogame/whatever. That doesn't really explain how you feel about Blood Ravens as opposed to Space Wolves or Word Bearers or Bad Moons or Craftworld Ulthwe or the Cadian 88th Armored Regiment, either as "characters" in a story or even as products.
Perhaps a clarification is in order? All of the line was made to sell a product. Bottom line. Why have a business if it has no income? I dislike the fact that they made up an entirely new Space Marine chapter in this particular situation rather than use one that is very well established.
Manchu wrote:I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between "comments" and "selections." I'll use your comment as an example: they were only designed to sell a product. Fine but that is true of every single Chapter that has been published in a GW or GW-licensed book/audiobook/movie/videogame/whatever. That doesn't really explain how you feel about Blood Ravens as opposed to Space Wolves or Word Bearers or Bad Moons or Craftworld Ulthwe or the Cadian 88th Armored Regiment, either as "characters" in a story or even as products.
Perhaps a clarification is in order? All of the line was made to sell a product. Bottom line. Why have a business if it has no income? I dislike the fact that they made up an entirely new Space Marine chapter in this particular situation rather than use one that is very well established.
-J.
What?
I'm kind of confused as to why you think the Blood Ravens were made to "sell a product". If the goal was to do that, then they likely would have used an established Chapter.
The reason Blood Ravens were 'invented' rather than them using one which is very well established is fairly easy to see. Blood Ravens, when they were originally introduced, were meant to be something for THQ to muck about with and if they screwed the pooch--GW could just write them off as destroyed at some point before the current timeline. If that were done with one of the established Chapters...you can imagine how well that would end.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: For what it's worth, that may be the best line he ever wrote.
And the single most trolling next to a pedophile Farseer.
For what it's worth though, I'm not sure why his usage of it resulted in this huge controversy of the Thousand Sons being the primogenitor of the Blood Ravens.
It was done before then, and it was always fairly clear that it was done in a mocking manner.
I'm a big fan of their fluff compared to other SM chapters and Gabriel actually gets really smashed in the end, which is unusual for a lot of SM characters as far as I can tell
Kanluwen wrote:The existence of Blood Ravens is not, by itself a bad thing.
The problem is that Goto did some ridiculous things, and is the biggest originator that can be linked to the whole "Thousand Sons Successor!11!!" theory. Prior to that, the Index Astartes had(as I've pointed out so many times it's second nature) only mentioned Magnus in passing.
Then Goto wrote a line where Ahriman calls one of the Astartes "Brother" and the gak hit the fan.
Eliphas calls them Brother in Chaos rising, multiple times. Surely that shows as much potential for them to be sucessors of the Black Legion, or (With Eliphas' legion-hopping nuttiness) even the Word Bearers. Though I agree The whole Thousand sons sucessor thing is ridiculous, as you can tell. Where did that originate from anyway?
Kanluwen wrote:The existence of Blood Ravens is not, by itself a bad thing.
The problem is that Goto did some ridiculous things, and is the biggest originator that can be linked to the whole "Thousand Sons Successor!11!!" theory. Prior to that, the Index Astartes had(as I've pointed out so many times it's second nature) only mentioned Magnus in passing.
Then Goto wrote a line where Ahriman calls one of the Astartes "Brother" and the gak hit the fan.
Eliphas calls them Brother in Chaos rising, multiple times. Surely that shows as much potential for them to be sucessors of the Black Legion, or (With Eliphas' legion-hopping nuttiness) even the Word Bearers. Though I agree The whole Thousand sons sucessor thing is ridiculous, as you can tell. Where did that originate from anyway?
The internet, awhile after the Index Astartes article that's in my sig. People afterwards started pointing towards it as being 'evidence' when in fact there's pretty much just the one mention of Thousand Sons and Magnus in there.
I do not recall when/how exactly it started though.
Wouldn't it be possible, if not probable that the various Chaos marines call the loyalists 'brother' sarcastically? I mean, that is what they are, battle brothers. In Star Wars, when the Emperor calls Luke 'Jedi', he isn't doing it out of respect. I don't think the whole brother thing holds any water at all.
lledwey wrote:Wouldn't it be possible, if not probable that the various Chaos marines call the loyalists 'brother' sarcastically? I mean, that is what they are, battle brothers. In Star Wars, when the Emperor calls Luke 'Jedi', he isn't doing it out of respect. I don't think the whole brother thing holds any water at all.
I think they represent a couple of good ideas weighed down by a greater number of bad ones. Beyond that, their name is hilariously generic and they strike way too close to the Blood Angels in terms of their emblem and color scheme.
The only things I know about the Blood Ravens comes from doing a few missions of DoW (Havn't completed any of them but own all).
As they seem interesting I'd prefer to not see another SM codex. I Think we have enough SMs, I could see an HQ added to C:SM with a Blood Raven specific Chapter Tactic, but thats the extent to my interest.
I can't think of anything really doable for the Blood Ravens as a 'Chapter Tactic' that would be considered easily balanced.
Maybe the option to have a single Librarian Power on a Sergeant, but it can be one of three powers from a list or something like that.
For anyone wanting more information on the Blood Ravens and their origin, please see my signature. It's the Index Astartes Article, as published on GW's website. It is the exact same that was published in White Dwarf.
I think they're alright, apart from the fact their name and symbol couldn't have been more generic if it had been devised by some kind of random chapter generator.
They have their own real life rhino though, and that's gotta count for something.
Kanluwen wrote:How is it not hard to figure out why a retcon is necessary?
The entirety of the Chapter isn't psychic but they did have a larger than usual complement of Librarians, who were supposed to be more powerful than normal---while the Thousand Sons were ,completely through and through their Legion, psykers.
The only thing to realize about the Thousand Sons is that it's not as though they were all able to do what each of the Cults did. Few of them could see the future, set the air on fire, manipulate their body chemistry, all while raising huge barriers of kinetic energy with their mind. They were organized into the Cults based upon what they were able to do.
The Corvidae, Athaneans, Raptora, Pavoni, and the Pyrae.
I don't mind the idea of Blood Ravens being Successors of a Traitor Legion---but why does it need to be the Thousand Sons, the one Legion that doesn't actually lend itself to Successors due to the Flesh Change or the geneseed which was suspected to be the reason for the huge amount of psykers in the Legion(seriously--even the Terrans were supposed to be psykers. That's pretty clearly not a case of the Prosperan psychic trait, it's the geneseed)?
Maybe they are 21st Founding? Maybe all those wacky experiments being conducted on the geneseed during that Founding actually worked for once, and the Imperium got a Chapter that corrects the original Legion's flaws? Okay, a "larger than average number of psykers" isn't as Thousand Sons-ish as "everybody is a psyker including my servitor and the guy who cleans the toilets" but maybe correcting the Flesh Change meant scaling waaaaaaaaay back on the genetic markers that triggered the 100% psyker rate.
Or maybe, just maybe (blue skying here) the Flesh Change wasn't caused by geneseed mutation, but was really caused by Tzeentch himself. Maybe it was part of his Just As Planned to get Magnus to fall? And now that he has Magnus and his Legion, he isn't really paying a lot of attention to what's being done with the geneseed the Imperium has on hand.
Or maybe he is paying attention, and not hitting the BRs with the Flesh Change this time around is part of an all-new Just As Planned, since that kind of mutation would get them purged before they would be worth turning to Chaos. As I understand it, they are kind of renegade-ish these days, right?
Just supposition, of course. Nothing anywhere to support this, but nothing anywhere to refute it. And no, the list of 21st Founding Chapters that we have doesn't have to be complete... record keeping in the 41st millenium is a joke, and the 21st Founding was ended rather abruptly and with much bolter fire, if I recall correctly...
Manchu wrote:I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between "comments" and "selections." I'll use your comment as an example: they were only designed to sell a product. Fine but that is true of every single Chapter that has been published in a GW or GW-licensed book/audiobook/movie/videogame/whatever. That doesn't really explain how you feel about Blood Ravens as opposed to Space Wolves or Word Bearers or Bad Moons or Craftworld Ulthwe or the Cadian 88th Armored Regiment, either as "characters" in a story or even as products.
Perhaps a clarification is in order? All of the line was made to sell a product. Bottom line. Why have a business if it has no income? I dislike the fact that they made up an entirely new Space Marine chapter in this particular situation rather than use one that is very well established.
-J.
What?
I'm kind of confused as to why you think the Blood Ravens were made to "sell a product". If the goal was to do that, then they likely would have used an established Chapter.
The reason Blood Ravens were 'invented' rather than them using one which is very well established is fairly easy to see. Blood Ravens, when they were originally introduced, were meant to be something for THQ to muck about with and if they screwed the pooch--GW could just write them off as destroyed at some point before the current timeline. If that were done with one of the established Chapters...you can imagine how well that would end.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: For what it's worth, that may be the best line he ever wrote.
Care to explain the Army Painter in Dawn of War then? I agree that there is a high possibility that GW was watching their backs, but then they wouldn't have allowed the Army Painter. (Or hell, even mods.)
Kanluwen wrote:How is it not hard to figure out why a retcon is necessary?
The entirety of the Chapter isn't psychic but they did have a larger than usual complement of Librarians, who were supposed to be more powerful than normal---while the Thousand Sons were ,completely through and through their Legion, psykers.
The only thing to realize about the Thousand Sons is that it's not as though they were all able to do what each of the Cults did. Few of them could see the future, set the air on fire, manipulate their body chemistry, all while raising huge barriers of kinetic energy with their mind. They were organized into the Cults based upon what they were able to do.
The Corvidae, Athaneans, Raptora, Pavoni, and the Pyrae.
I don't mind the idea of Blood Ravens being Successors of a Traitor Legion---but why does it need to be the Thousand Sons, the one Legion that doesn't actually lend itself to Successors due to the Flesh Change or the geneseed which was suspected to be the reason for the huge amount of psykers in the Legion(seriously--even the Terrans were supposed to be psykers. That's pretty clearly not a case of the Prosperan psychic trait, it's the geneseed)?
Maybe they are 21st Founding? Maybe all those wacky experiments being conducted on the geneseed during that Founding actually worked for once, and the Imperium got a Chapter that corrects the original Legion's flaws? Okay, a "larger than average number of psykers" isn't as Thousand Sons-ish as "everybody is a psyker including my servitor and the guy who cleans the toilets" but maybe correcting the Flesh Change meant scaling waaaaaaaaay back on the genetic markers that triggered the 100% psyker rate.
Or maybe, just maybe (blue skying here) the Flesh Change wasn't caused by geneseed mutation, but was really caused by Tzeentch himself. Maybe it was part of his Just As Planned to get Magnus to fall? And now that he has Magnus and his Legion, he isn't really paying a lot of attention to what's being done with the geneseed the Imperium has on hand.
Or maybe he is paying attention, and not hitting the BRs with the Flesh Change this time around is part of an all-new Just As Planned, since that kind of mutation would get them purged before they would be worth turning to Chaos. As I understand it, they are kind of renegade-ish these days, right?
Just supposition, of course. Nothing anywhere to support this, but nothing anywhere to refute it. And no, the list of 21st Founding Chapters that we have doesn't have to be complete... record keeping in the 41st millenium is a joke, and the 21st Founding was ended rather abruptly and with much bolter fire, if I recall correctly...
That entire supposition is based upon the idea that they used Traitor Legion geneseed. There's hintings towards "tainted" geneseed being used, but that doesn't necessarily mean "traitor". geneseed.
The thing about Blood Ravens is that if it's Tzeentch...DOW: Retribution very much slaps that idea down because of who The Ascended turns to for his ascension.
The only "renegades" are in a sense the Loyalists of the Chapter, who've discovered why/what The Ascended is doing. It leads to a civil war within the Chapter, very much in the vein of how Krieg fell.
Alazahr wrote:Care to explain the Army Painter in Dawn of War then? I agree that there is a high possibility that GW was watching their backs, but then they wouldn't have allowed the Army Painter. (Or hell, even mods.)
-J.
Why wouldn't they allow Army Painter? It only affects multiplayer, not campaign.
As for mods--they can't stop them, for the most part.
Kanluwen wrote:
That entire supposition is based upon the idea that they used Traitor Legion geneseed. There's hintings towards "tainted" geneseed being used, but that doesn't necessarily mean "traitor". geneseed.
The thing about Blood Ravens is that if it's Tzeentch...DOW: Retribution very much slaps that idea down because of who The Ascended turns to for his ascension.
The only "renegades" are in a sense the Loyalists of the Chapter, who've discovered why/what The Ascended is doing. It leads to a civil war within the Chapter, very much in the vein of how Krieg fell.
Oh, well I was just tossing out ideas. I don't really have an opinion of them one way or the other (in fact, I've only ever played the first DoW) so most of what I know about them is based on what I see here on Dakka.
Admittedly, if everyone is basing the Thousand Sons link on one line where Ahriman calls a Marine "brother", then there is no reason at all to think they are descended from the 1k Kiddies. Chaos Marines have been mockingly calling loyalists "brother" since waaaaaaaay back in 2nd edition, when each army had a little green pamphlet with a sample army list and a wee bit of story to let you know who they were. In the CSM pamphlet, a CSM from a faction that I don't remember (it would be one of the 4 aligned Legions, because the other 5 were never really talked about at this point) mocks a dying Blood Angel with the one word that he knows the loyalist would find most insulting: Brother.
Now, if Ahriman had said "We are more like brothers than you imagine" that might be something to base a theory off of.
For the record, I don't have a problem with them being Thousand Sons descendants. I have been running a Loyalist Emperor's Children descended Chapter since I started back in 1995, so the concept of Loyalists with Traitor geneseed doesn't set my hair on fire. As long as it's handled intelligently.
The thing about Blood Ravens is that if it's Tzeentch...DOW: Retribution very much slaps that idea down because of who The Ascended turns to for his ascension.
Inserting my customarily utilized lengthy diatribe before a spoiler so it doesn't get ruined for anyone by thread preview...
It's an understandable person for The Ascended to turn to, given that he's an Astartes Librarian(a warrior-mystic, for all intents and purposes) and was renowned as a figure of martial prowess.
Spoiler:
"The Ascended" is Azariah Kyras, the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens. He was corrupted by the whispers of a Great Unclean One during an incursion on a Space Hulk some decades before, leading to him engineering the circumstances for the Daemon to be released(see: Chaos Rising). However, when it comes time for Kyras to finally 'Ascend' to Daemon princehood...he swears fealty to Khorne. There is no way in hell, if Tzeentch was behind all this, that he would allow Khorne to take the credit or the victory of fully half a Loyalist Chapter turning to Khorne.
Kanluwen wrote:Inserting my customarily utilized lengthy diatribe before a spoiler so it doesn't get ruined for anyone by thread preview...
It's an understandable person for The Ascended to turn to, given that he's an Astartes Librarian(a warrior-mystic, for all intents and purposes) and was renowned as a figure of martial prowess.
Spoiler:
"The Ascended" is Azariah Kyras, the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens. He was corrupted by the whispers of a Great Unclean One during an incursion on a Space Hulk some decades before, leading to him engineering the circumstances for the Daemon to be released(see: Chaos Rising). However, when it comes time for Kyras to finally 'Ascend' to Daemon princehood...he swears fealty to Khorne. There is no way in hell, if Tzeentch was behind all this, that he would allow Khorne to take the credit or the victory of fully half a Loyalist Chapter turning to Khorne.
Ifound that whole bit kind of Ironic, given that Khorne despizes psykers.
Kanluwen wrote:Inserting my customarily utilized lengthy diatribe before a spoiler so it doesn't get ruined for anyone by thread preview...
It's an understandable person for The Ascended to turn to, given that he's an Astartes Librarian(a warrior-mystic, for all intents and purposes) and was renowned as a figure of martial prowess.
Spoiler:
"The Ascended" is Azariah Kyras, the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens. He was corrupted by the whispers of a Great Unclean One during an incursion on a Space Hulk some decades before, leading to him engineering the circumstances for the Daemon to be released(see: Chaos Rising). However, when it comes time for Kyras to finally 'Ascend' to Daemon princehood...he swears fealty to Khorne. There is no way in hell, if Tzeentch was behind all this, that he would allow Khorne to take the credit or the victory of fully half a Loyalist Chapter turning to Khorne.
Spoiler:
I found that whole bit kind of Ironic, given that Khorne despises psykers.
Spoiler:
Negative. Khorne despises weakness, schemers, cowards, and sorcerers. An Astartes Librarian is far from a "sorcerer, coward, weak, or schemer". It's the epitome of a warrior-mystic.
Sounds like someone's playing the long game to me. Rather Tzeentchian, I'd say. Anyway, there does not need to be any connection between the 1ksons and BRs through Tzeentch. The more likely connection is through Ahriman, who himself despises Tzeentch.
I think that's a very valid view. THQ needed a Chapter to introduce Space Marines to folks who had not played 40k before so they didn't want something as divergent as Space Wolves or Dark Angels. On the other hand, they needed to have enough character to drive their own story. It just so happens that, when launching a franchise into the RTS genre, the first motivation is much more important than the second one. Maybe they will become more characterful over time, once THQ feels that most people know what a Space Marine is -- via the Space Marine shooter, for example.
Is this bit in the novels? I haven't read any of the BR novels.
I didn't know about that.
