Yay first post!

So I have been bouncing around some ideas for the Tau, and thought these might be a way to improve the Tau without making them stupidly OP (LOL!RAILGUNS-PENETRATE-IN-STRAIGHT-LINE-FOREVER!LOLOLOLOL!).

!EDIT!: This has been edited to include the wonderful ideas people have shared on here. Please keep the ideas and criticisms coming!

Overall army:

---Drones no longer count towards the unit total for the purpose of panic tests from 25% shooting.
This will require some points juggling (as the Shield generator is 5 pts more expensive with the tradeoff of not causing the unit to have a liability towards morale checks from shooting, and the new rule might encourage gun drone spam), but makes infinitely more sense in fluff, and would make drones a bit more commonplace in the Tau armies. Plus, they still die in CC (and spamming them for suits could make the overall unit toughness a 3...), so it won't suddenly make the Tau an unstoppable CC badass.

---The Devilfish, Hammerhead, Skyray, Pirahna, and Drone Harbinger all start with a burst cannon (2 for the Skyray,Hammerhead, and Harbingers), and can exchange this for a single weapon system from the Crisis suit weapon systems for the points listed (Skyrays, Hammerheads, and Harbingers can instead purchase a TL weapon for the points indicated)

Wargear:

---Positional Relay: As in the rulebook, except a Tau player is restricted to holding only 5 units in Reserve.
Hopefully this will reduce the Positional Relay Shenanigans army lists I've seen in my local gaming club (Bring in expendable crap turns 1-3/4, and on turns 4/5 opt not to use the Relay ability and use the natural 2+/automatic Reserves, turboboosting Pirahnas and other such BS), as I feel, IMHO, that it's kind of an underhanded abuse of the item. This would allow deep-striking Tau armies to be feasible, but now you only have to deal with a single Pirhana squad instead of the rest of the army. (Disclaimer: I have never played as/against nor seen this army in use, so hopefully the bias is minimal)

---Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher: 24", Same S/AP/Type, No cover save, and Ignore LOS
I have yet to hear of this item in any Tau list outside of the promotional GW "No, really, your army needs one of everything" list in the back of the codex. In it's new form, the Launcher would act sorta like a low-S/Ap Hive Guard, but with a template. The points cost would be the same, or at least adjusted for fairness.

---Cyclic Ion Blaster: Points adjusted to make it worth it, as right now it's a crappy Burst Cannon with Rending.

---Vectored Retro Thrusters: No longer Special Issue
Hopefully this would allow for the possibility (While still hole-in-the-head insane) idea of a Crisis suit strike force, or at least one that isn't f d when it gets caught in a combat.

---Ejection System: Either cheaper, or allowable for someone with drones.
Just because this seems to be another cool yet never used item.

---Failsafe Detonator: Blast is S8 AP3 or 4 instead of AP-
This is fairly costed, right until you realize that it will do between diddly and squat to a MEQ in an assault ("6 wounds? Oops, I lost 1 guy. So sad..."). The lack of morale checks for 25% losses means that it won't screw over IG or Orks, even if they take heavy losses. That, or after the blast the area becomes a crater (Difficult Terrain like in a vehicle "Explosion!" result)

---Pulse Rifle (Basic Fire Warrior weapon): Rapid Fire, with 2x shots at 15", can buy the "Bipod" upgrade to allow you to fire it as a Heavy 2 gun (Which must be declared before the movement phase).
Tau fire warriors are too weak and too inaccurate to be viable at their current status. Even a squad of 12 gets shredded thanks to the 4+ save (which bolters eat for breakfast), but they shouldn't be tougher (They're not marines) or cheaper (They're not IG). Simply making them get 1 shot even if they move (making them a viable threat even when moving in on an objective, and keeping with the mobile aspects of the Tau army) or 2 if they don't (Making them a viable alternative in volume of fire to Crisis suits, so players have a choice of quantity vs. quality) would drastically help their viability as a unit.

---Pulse Carbine: Assault 2 Rending instead of Pinning, can opt instead to fire the weapon as a 12" S3 Ap- Sm Blast (Drones do not get TL for this firing mode and do not count as Rending).
This is simply so there's a reason to pick a carbine on Fire Warriors. It'll still be assault 1 at 18", but suddenly you can opt to have a 2-stage firing line that won't simply give the enemy a cover save (If you're lucky and manage to win the lottery of forcing a successful pinning test). It won't be as effective as ranged shooting, but if you'd rather have 1 shot that has a 1/6 chance of royally screwing a MEQ instead of making him ticklish, this could be an option.

---Kroot Gun: Assault 2 instead of Rapid Fire
(Disclaimer:I don't personally use Kroot, so this is conjecture) This seems like it might make bringing a lumbering, noisy (No Infiltrate) Krootox along a viable option. Dunno though (See Disclaimer)

---Rail Rifle: Ignores cover save from enemies that are not within area terrain.

---Honor Blade: Counts as a Power Weapon, not +2 to S
Why isn't this the default rule? An Ethereal will get eaten alive anyhow, and this seems like it'll at least let him possibly take someone with him if he's attacked, and he has crap WS, A, and I, so it's kinda a moot point.

---Decoy Launchers: Glancing Hits get -3 to vehicle damage results, not reroll 'Immobilised' Results
This item is again never taken, but this might make it a somewhat viable option against Low-S (Relatively) AV weapons. However, this could also OP it when you include the almost mandatory Disruption Pods

---Ion Cannon: Heavy 5 Re instead of 3
Really, the only use of this is to kill MEQ and GEQ, but 3 a turn tops is simply pathetic, especially for the 90 pt chassis it comes on. Right now, however, 3 hits vs a large blast template (Submunition) seems like an easy choice.

--- Railgun: Hammerhead railguns can now fire a Hypervelocity shot or the Submunition Shot. The Hypervelocity shot is as follows: 72" S10 Ap1 Heavy 1 Lance.

---Sniper Drone: Default BS 3 (4 with the Targeting Array)
This unit is another example of only needing a slight tweak to make it worthwhile. the S6Ap3 shot is nice, but missing because you allocated markerlights to drop a cover save instead of BS is ridiculous, and this unit needs at least 4 markerlights to cause wounds on a MEQ with any sort of reliability (Especially when you're giving up a H-fish or broadside for them)

---Seeker Missile: Target does not get a cover save unless they are fully within area terrain.

Force Choices:

---Ethereal: I4 instead of 3, 5+ save (or 6+ invul?), Inspiring Presence is not affected by Night Fighting, may purchase a Pulse Rifle or Pulse Carbine for X points, comes default with a Pulse Pistol. In addition, the Honor Guard unit has a maximum size of 18 or 20 instead of 12, 8 Ld default (9 for the Shas'ui), and is Stubborn (and cost 13-14 pts per model instead of 12) .
This is to make the Ethereal not a complete waste of time. While the Honor Guard is nice, they still run just as easily as Fire Warriors when they take the 25% casualties, and the 50 point character that offers (IMHO) badly-needed morale rerolls at the cost of becoming a bullet magnet is a empty model for terms of shooting AND assaults. The +1 I will help him to whack first with his 3/4 attacks against average units (But not OPing him vs. stuff like eldar and other heroes). Plus, since getting a Honor Guard usually means he's not going to be hiding in a cozy d-fish, more models will help him survive long enough to offer the reroll instead of getting munched from shooting turn 1 or 2.

---Fire Warriors: Maximum squad size is 14 or 18, and the Shas'ui has BS 4 instead of 3. One squad of Fire Warriors in your army may all swap their Pulse rifles for Rail rilfes at the cost of +5 pts per model.
This is simply to help the inevitably APed Fire Warriors survive a bit longer and offer some return fire. This change to squad size may be unnecessary after the Pulse Rifle changes, depending on if they successfully become the glass cannon I personally believe GW meant them to be without the squad size help. The +1 BS on the Shas'ui is because 10 points for +1 A and +1 Ld on a unit that should never enter assault is a damned waste, especially with no change to WS.

---Devilfish: Can replace it's burst cannon with a suit weapon system for the points indicated (Maybe), and an (expensive and/or limited number per army) upgrade that would allow the D-fish to deepstrike. Otherwise drop it to 60/65 pts or so
This is my desperate attempt to find a way that a D-fish could actually be something every Tau player doesn't grimace about when they have to take it for their pathfinders. The deepstrike may actually not be unfair, since if you want to avoid getting broken ASAP with AT weapons, you need to be 12+" away for the disruption pods. However, at this distance, the Tau player probably won't be able to last-turn contest an objective without seriously risking their d-fish.

---Drone Squad: Moved to Troop instead of Fast Attack, Maximum squad size of 12 or 14, are Fearless, and does not count as a Scoring Unit.
Tau players tend to have a plethora of spare gun drones due to their uselessness on anything that's not a vehicle and that they shove a few in every box of anything with a Tau logo on it (Sorta like 'Nid rippers...), and they never get picked because that would get rid of either pathfinders (the backbone to many if not most Tau armies) or Piranhas (We'll ignore the poor stingwings for now). Now, they can be a fire support and contesting unit, but are still fragile enough that shooting followed by a charge will wipe them easily. They'd be a viable stopgap or speedbump instead of the Kroot meatshields, and while cheaper they have a faster response time with the jump packs to gaps in your defenses.

---Crisis suits (and broadsides): S4 T5 instead of S5 T4, and maximum squad size is 4 instead of 3.
Really, this is how the codex should have been in the first place.

---Pathfinders: The devilfish is no longer nessesary, but you may equip one D-fish in your army with the Marker Beacon rule for 3/5pts per Pathfinder squad in your army.
Self-explanatory. This is the unneeded crutch that makes absolutely no sense in crunch (Despite sounding wonderful in fluff). If markerlights were assault 1, then this would be an acceptable requirement (as well as being broken as f k), but as-is it's completely stupid and I've never seen it used for moving Pathfinders.

---Piranhas: Perhaps allow them to upgrade to a suit weapon system instead of just a fusion blaster, just for some variety. Other then that, speedy joy in a 65+ point package.

---Stingwings: Neuron Blaster uses a flamer template instead of 12" Assault 1.
(Disclaimer: I've personally never used Stingwings, and this is conjecture based on the codex and what other gamers have discussed) The Tau already have plenty of jump packs, so this one needs to be special. The 1/4 chance of popping a MEQ is nice, but the original limit of 1 shot each in a 11 bug squad with T3 and a 5+ save means they get munched by anything easily, even flashlights. The change to template makes them a viable and threatening choice. Sure, they die easy, but 2 or 3 of them dropping a couple flamer templates on an assault marine squad will be felt, and this way they'd offer a nice bullet magnet apart from the typical pathfinders and suits. Plus, picking off the leader with a Vindicaire or some such attack makes them nearly autobreak in morale checks, further making them an exemplary glass cannon unit, instead of the glass watergun they are now.

---Sniper Drone Team: 5 sniper drones and 1 spotter per team, Spotter can also buy up to 2 additional drones.
This additional size, along with the slightly improved Sniper Drone, help make this the somewhat more surgical alternative to mass Fire Warrior or suit fire. Better to hit helps them actually cause the MEQ-killer wounds they were designed for, while the 5 drones helps them absorb more than 1 round of fire. The target lock they already have helps them become an effective alternative to massed volleys against MC armies (*cough* NIDS *cough*), since currently you either hope to overwhelm their save or punch through it, which is a waste of shots if you're fighting a mech or horde list.

---Skyray Gunship: The gunship has the ability Reload (roll 1d6, if # is greater than number of remaining missiles on gunship, refill 1 missile).
NOTE: This is Killcrazy's awesome idea, not mine. Honestly, this thing has potential, but 6 krak missile shots for the whole game that use vital markerlights is not a great option, especially compared to the other heavy support choices. TL Missile Pod suits give you that many shots over the course of 2 turns for approximately the same cost, at -1 S and 36" range but not using the valuable markerlights. It's a cool idea, but just not worth it since most other stuff in the army can do the same thing or more for the same cost or less.

Special Characters: (*Cue laugh track*)

(Note; These are more of my comments on the characters and not really my attempts to fully balance the units)

---Aun'va (The Ethereal): Really? It's like a standard Ethereal fell out of the nerf bat tree and hit a substantial number of them on the way down. He can't join units, so unless he hides in a d-fish all game, he's a 155 pt upgrade to make your forces in TLOS Stubborn instead of less flighty. While it is nice that his death effect doesn't cause auto-breaks or something like that, the +2 to T doohickey that doesn't affect ID is like a tinfoil hat; It makes you feel safer, until you realize that it offers no benefit, especially when being hit with an ignore cover ID weapon (not hard to do at T3... :/). And again, his molasses-slow I3 guards will do somewhere between slim and nil in preventing their beloved leader from becoming a blue smear on the dirt in 99% of assaults.

---O'Shovah (Farsight, or The Hero in a Big Suit): All of the suck in the other two characters balance out Farsight. He's not OP (to forestall outcry to the contrary, more suits is offset by way less Heavy Support; i.e. High-S AT weapons), but he is a good solid character that the other two should have been.

---O'Shaserra (Shadowsun, or The Hero in a Small Suit): Shadowsun is almost awesome. Almost. However, her inability to join another squad as an IC is ridiculous. she's basically a 6 wound T3 model with a 4+ save, which basically means she gets eaten alive by any bolters/shootas/flashlights/rocks/spitballs that get can get range on her. The only way she can avoid becoming a stupidly easy target is by losing 30+ points of drones, over 1/6 of the original unit cost, so she can finally hide in another unit. Otherwise, she'd be a great addition to a stealthteam, allowing them to become a fearsome tank-hunter unit (IG would probably dislike 5 separate melta shots deepstriking next to a block of LR or something similar)

New Unit/Wargear Ideas:

---Target Designator Drone: Purchased as a normal drone, allows the unit to reroll 1d6 1s for to-hit in shooting this phase.
NOTE: This is TrollPie's idea, not mine.

---Point Defense Drone: Purchased as a normal drone, acts as a flechette discharger for units that assault the equipped unit.
NOTE: This is Killcrazy's idea, not mine.

---Shadow Caste Warriors: See this thread for details http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/384133.page

---Drone Harbinger: Costs~150 pts, can buy a secondary weapon system, has following abilities: Drone Factory (Can create 1d6+3 drones in the movement phase who act as their own unit. If the harbinger rolls a 6, it cannot make any more drones for the rest of the game), Uplink Node (If the drone harbinger is destroyed, all drone squads it has created are destroyed), Fire Control (All Drone squads within 6" of the harbinger count as BS3).
Ever played DOW1? While I rarely used it, the Drone Harbinger was a really cool unit, and fun to play with. I envision it as either a non-scoring troop choice (Like a Nid Tervigon. More connections to that unit to be drawn soon) or another non-HQ slot (Elite or Heavy Support?). You could make a single squad of 2d6 drones per turn, treating them the same as a standard Drone squad, and doubles means it can't make drones for the rest of the game. If the Drone harbinger dies, so do all squads of drones it has made in the game. In essence, this would allow you to make several fast yet small units of drones to contest and harass, but you'd be forced to counteract the drone's speed by keeping the harbinger well back to avoid a couple of AT weapons netting a lot of KP for a lucky opponent.

---Krootox: (Profile undetermined, as I'm not as good at this kind of thing and i don't want to make it OP)
Yay for jumping on the MC bandwagon with both feet! I know FW has a krootox model, but having a tournament-legal MC and bullet sponge would be really nice for Tau. I envision something along the lines of a slower Trygon (no fleet, but T6 with 6W and a 3+ save), but Feel No Pain. Only 2 or 3 S4 or 5 attacks (Talons), but probably 1 at S8 (The beaky bite). Perhaps allow the Tau player to buy an upgrade to either give it a drone-controlled automatic Railgun, a single 72" S10 Ap1 shot with BS2 (Drone Controlled) that shoots at the nearest enemy target, and fires once at a target a Krootox successfully assaults, or something like a 18" S5/6ish Ap4 or 5 "Quill Throw" (Large blast template). This would provide a nasty foe for mech armies, but having only one High-S 2d6 pen attack to make landraiders shudder wouldn't be too OP, and the model would provide a nice bullet magnet. This would probably serve the same purpose as a Trygon for Nids; He'll probably die, but when he does he draws the enemy's fire away from squishier things, and if he doesn't die, he wrecks face.

Tactics:

Preface: These are (mostly) my ideas on abilities for the Tau FW squads to use. Some of these may be horribly OP, but if so please let me know how I can fix/replace them!

Only one Tactic can be chosen per turn at the beginning of the movement phase for all FW squads in the army, and each squad of FW must pass a Ld check in order to use them, and cannot affect units that are Falling Back (They may also opt to automatically fail the test and not receive the Tactic). All Commanders have access to Stand and Shoot as well as Evade, Evade!, and may purchase a single additional Tactic to reflect emphasis or additional aid from a particular Tau caste.

Default Tactics:

---Stand and Shoot: If charged, the squad may make a single shooting attack as if it were their shooting phase. Any casualties caused by this shooting counts towards the Tau player's CR.

---Evade, Evade!: (NOTE: This idea is from Killcrazy, and is not my own.) If charged, the squad may attempt to evade. Make a single Fall Back move as normal directly away from the charge before the opponent moves his troops (The unit does not count as Falling Back in subsequent turns due to this move) . If the result would take the unit off of the board, treat it as a roll of 2. After this movement, the opponent then moves his assault move as normal towards the squad plus an additional 1d3". If any of the FW squad are contacted by the enemy squad, the assault is successful, and the FW squad is treated as I1 and cannot use their grenades. (No further Evade, Evade moves can be made by the assaulted squad, although they may Fall back again if defeated in combat.).

Optional Tactics:

---Pulse Modulation (Earth Caste): All S5 Ap5 weapons in this squad (Burst Cannons, Pulse Rifles, Pulse Pistols, and Pulse Carbines standard shot) become S4 Ap4 or S3 Ap3 for this turn.

---Concentrated Volley (Fire Caste): All S5 Ap5 weapons in this squad (Burst Cannons, Pulse Rifles, Pulse Pistols, and Pulse Carbines) become Rending against vehicles, walkers, and MCs.

---Silent Hunter (Shadow Caste): The squad get a +1 to their cover save if in area terrain, or they get a 6+ cover save if they are not in cover.

---Orbital Signalling (Air Caste): The squad may double the effect of any markerlights they use this shooting phase (ie, 1 markerlight can boost BS by 2, or reduce cover save by 2, or reduce ld saves by 2. Any excess markerlights, such as using 2 to remove a 4+ cover save, are lost).

---Voice of Reason (Water Caste): If this squad causes a morale check on an enemy squad due to shooting, they take the test with an Ld modifier equal to the number of casualties taken from the shooting.

---For the Greater Good (Ethereal Caste): The squad counts as Fearless if above 50% of their original strength for this turn.

Please submit any abuses or ideas!

Your Kroot Idea was made legal in an FAQ a while back.

Ah. Must have missed that bit. I use and encounter Kroot players rarely, but I'm glad they fixed that particular rule. Now if only they'd fix Fire Warriors... :/

Needs more Knarloc kroot cavalry (would be sweet).

See my article Ideas for Tau Codex.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Ideas_for_a_5th_edition_Tau_Codex

It would be nice if Pathfinders were able to infiltrate.

Do you have any idea for what the Tau flyer should be?

Great ideas, for the most part.

I think that the AFL should still be large blast, though, as your model would be even worse IMHO. I also think that drones should get their own version of the pulse carbine that is pinning, as they are pretty nice for pinning units and rending might make them pretty OP.

Fire warrior Shas'ui NEEDS BS4.

The drone harbringer sounds cool, but 1D6 might be more balanced.

Otherwise, these are all really good ideas!

@Kilcrazy: Interesting. I like your changes to the Special Issue weapons, and I especially like your drone ideas (The Point defense drone is cool, although I'd change it to make a standard flechette discharger much more expensive). The SkyRay should come default with the Reload rule in the current codex, as that fits both fluff and gameplay much better than my idea. The Gue'vesa are cool fluff-wise, but kind of useless/redundant in the overall army, and the Tarellian dog soldiers are the opposite (A perfect fast shooty Tau unit, but I don't think I've read about them before).

@Dakkadood: Perhaps not knarlocs, but a "big" version of a kroot hound being ridden by a carnivore would nom infantry squads wonderfully. Keeping the +1 to cover save and the difficult terrain movement would mean they could threaten up to 24" of the board regardless of terrain

@Sabrx: Maybe, but assuming you're on a 4'x6' board, the Scout move allows you to position them wherever you need them to shoot on the board with their 36" gun. Infiltrate would just put them unnecessarily close to squads that could (and would) eat them for breakfast

@HappyGrunt: The Orca would be a cool choice. The model would be fugly as hell, but allowing it to carry a Devilfish/hammerhead/skyray a-la Stormraven or several squads of Fire Warriors (dropping 36 of them in rapid fire range to smoke an enemy squad or two would be awesome) would be cool IMHO. Otherwise a mini-manta (Stingray? ) would probably fit as a fast attack, with fewer shooty weapons but a bombing run ability or something.

@Yamgrenade: The pulse carbine already is pinning, but current Ld rules and abundance of Fearless makes it actually kinda worthless (And for shooting, if trying to have the drones contest an objective, pinning an enemy squad on it is a really crappy result). And I agree with the harbinger, but it does need a cutoff on certain rolls. perhaps 1d6+4 drones, and a 6 deactivates it?

I know it is pinning already, I was saying that drones should keep pinning, because rending drones would be kinda OP Maybe have it so they can elect to use their grenade launcher instead, so make it-

Pulse carbine- S5 AP5 18'' Assault 1 Rending (For firewarriors only?)

Pulse Grenade- S3 AP- 12'' Heavy 1 Small Blast, Pinning

This makes them more versatile and useful against more armies.

Your Harbringer sounds like a good design, maybe roll it back to +3 though.

Actually, removing the option for rending at all, and it'd be an awesome choice. The BS2 of the drones, even with the reroll, will scatter like hell, but that would allow for way more wounds against a horde army than the current 1 shot each. The assault 1 would allow for shooting while moving into position, and then grenades could fly once they got situated.

Also, @killcrazy, I think a better rule than Evade, Evade! would be Stand and Shoot. Basically, give Tau firewarriors (and maybe suits?) the ability to have 1 round of rapid-fire against any unit that charges them, with the kills from that volley going towards CR. That way, the 1 or 2 wounds the shooting from 6 FW would cause might offset somewhat the 3 or 4 dead FW from combat against a MEQ or whatever has charged them and not eaten them alive. Plus, against orks it'd be more like 6 wounds, dropping the boyz by 18 attacks (assuming 3 on a charge each). Maybe make the Evade, Evade! an expensive upgrade (Tactics for Shas'ui/Team Leaders, anyone?) that allows them that fall-back move (2d6) if they pass a Ld test vs the enemy consolidate (1d6), with a fail meaning they are caught and assaulted as normal, but without the ability to use their photon grenades as normal perhaps. This wouldn't be too bad because as a tau player I can verify that the Ld8 of a Shas'ui is barely better than dog crap (Adding extra incentive to add an Ethereal and his Ld reroll). Other tactics (all of which would be decided and rolled at the beginning of the turn) could include:

---Pinpoint Volley: The squad weapons all count as Heavy 2 instead for this round of combat.
This would allow for the long-range dakka that the tau need from their Firewarriors in order to get the kills they need against MEQs. ATM, they can get 1 or 2 wounds vs an MEQ, which will not be enough for a test. But getting 3 or 4 will cause a Ld test, and over 2 or 3 turns will whittle something like an Assault squad from 10 FW-eaters to more like 3 or 4 (But at the cost of immobilizing the squad and making it vulnerable to other assaults)

---Silent Hunter: The squad gets a +1 to their cover save. If the squad is not in cover, they instead get a 6+ cover save.
Basically, give the squad the benefits of going to ground without removing the shooting. This would add surviveability, but at the cost of a possible extra shot per FW from using the Pinpoint Volley above.

---Rain of Fire: All S5 (aka Pulse Rifles, and Pulse Carbines) gain Rending for shots against vehicles.
(DISCLAIMER: I can already guess this may be waaay OP) This could allow a viable Tau army without a suit or H-head/skyray in sight. A squad of 12 FW would get 6 hits, 1 of which would rend (In the Math-hammer world) and pen a transport, or possibly glance a larger object like a tank or LR. While not guaranteeing a popped vehicle, it would certainly give the Tau more options apart from H-heads, broadsides,a nd seeker missiles vs vehicles (It could also support the idea of deep-striking a D-fish or Orca, if it's the Tau flyer, with fire warriors, as 12-24 rapid fire shots into an armor 10 squishy leman russ rear, or even into a LR or Monolith, could actually have some results apart from muffled laughs from inside the target)

These would give Tau a similarity to IG's orders, but if the orders were made on Ld8 (Instead of the 10 from the IG's command squad) and were army-wide instead of on a per-squad basis, it could be viable. Turn 1, give them the +1 cover save, turn 2 give them 2x shots at the people now in range, and turn 3 give them the Rending vs vehicles or the fall back or the Stand and Shoot attack. Also, the tactics would only benefit Fire Warriors, and not suits, drones, vehicles, or kroot/vespids, so as to not make suits still the best choice in the army.

What're your thoughts on these ideas?

I thought of an idea once, for FW.
Wargear:
Micro-Targetter-10 points
A micro-targetter allows all 1s to hit when shooting to be rerolled
Then a TA for 20 points. Combine that with an assault 1 weapon and they could be pretty viable. Personally I think carbines should just be made assault 2, since GLs don't really fit the Tau theme of specialisation on all units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcas are too big for standard games, save them for apocalypse.
Skyrays could be loaded with alternative missile racks, e.g. standard tank-hunter Seeker Missiles or high explosive Seeker Missiles- e.g. R72" S4 AP3.
All Battlesuits and all their wargear options should recieve a Improve suits a bit. 25 points for a 2-wound jetpack marine that sucks in CC and isn't as accurate, and doesn't even have weapons? A standard Fireknife costs nearly 70 points, and despite being one of the best options in the Codex is still overpriced. If all suits got BS4 and a 20% cost decrease on all wargear they would be more in line with newer codices.
Make Stealthsuits 20 points with the new suit upgrades, and allow them to take as many FBs as they want.

True, but the Tau have a massive lack of templates in their army, something that really comes and bites them in the ass when they have to fight orks or a Nid swarm. Perhaps allow them to buy a Carbine (Assault 2 Pinning 18" S5 AP5) or a Photonic Launcher (Heavy 1 Sm. Blast 18" S3 Ap-), with carbine being a free swap from pulse rifles, and the Launcher being an additional 2 or 3 pts per model. The micro-targeter is cool, but would need to be more like 2 or 3 pts per model for it to be worth it for FW; Otherwise, they'd be the price of a SM for -1WS, -1BS, -1S, -1T, -1 Sv, -1 Ld, and without the ATSKnF or heavy weapon options.

Another idea I was bouncing around (may or may not fit Tau very well, but seemed fun):
---Shadow Warriors: WS3 BS3 S3 T3 1W I3 A2 Ld8 4+Sv, with free bonding knife, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, and stealth fields. While the squad is at their original number (Taken no casualties), they can reroll missed To-Hit rolls (and/or possibly their to-wounds). Probably 10-15 pts per model, with a close combat weapon and a pulse pistol.
This would be an option that, would give Tau a non-kroot melee option. It would be a Scoring Troop choice, which could infiltrate/Outflank/Scout (Or 2 of the above 3), never deep-strike, and while they'd be difficult to hit, the enemy would have to dedicate at least 1 squad's fire at them to knock off their ability to reroll the to-hits. It'd follow the Tau ideology of being a glass cannon, but without becoming DE (Lower I, no poisoned or fancy attacks, slightly tougher) or Assault marines (Slower, only on a roughly even footing with I and S on turn 1 of the charge). Plus, it'd allow a Tau player to make an all-stealth army without using Kroot. Dunno though, as this seems very much on the verge of being against the doctrines and feel of the Tau army.

Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree, Orcas are a bit on the large side (And climbed back up the ugly tree for another go after the first fall). The ability to load HE seeker missiles would be nice, especially if they still could be markerlighted onto a squad with infinite range.
As for the suits, all they really need is T5 (I'd take S4 T5 over S5 T4 any day of the week) and/or a 2+ save by default. The 2 wounds mainly sucks because almost everyone will ID them with krak missiles, lascannons, and such. If all I had to worry about for ID was battlecannons, railguns, and orbital strikes, that'd be much more fair (Especially with all the Tau tankbuster weapons).
And yes, Stealthsuits should be able to take 2 weapon systems, not start default with the gakky burst cannon.

I have thought about a melee Tau unit, and have some fluff for it as well- When the Tau were first discovered, the Imperials took some of the primitive fire caste as samples. Due to warp anomalies, the ship carrying the samples crashed into a jungle world far from T'au. Because of the tight spaces in the jungle, they developed hunting skills with melee weapons and primitive pistols/handbows and therefore know stealth, assassination, and close-quarters combat. They join their brothers and form the dark 6th caste, the Shadow caste. (I stole your name )

Anyway, I like the idea of better stealth suits (perhaps a new model piloted by the Shadow caste) and the orders sound pretty cool. If etherals could order them with 10 Ld it may make them a bit more viable (While still mostly trash.) The carbines are also good, because right now they are trash, and with this they make fire warriors and drones more viable, especially since drones can jet pack and fire on the move.

yamgrenade wrote:They join their brothers and form the dark 6th caste, the Shadow caste.

^^ WIN. That would indeed be some awesome fluff.

My thoughts were that they would have WS4 or 5, I4, S3 T3 (They're not in suits, they have seperate generator packs), and they have a number of abilities tied to if they've taken casualties, or how many they've taken (Sorta showing their strong pack and brotherhood ties). So they get the to-hit reroll as long as they're above 50%, and if the unit is reduced to 1 model, that model is Stubborn and gets Feel no Pain (no to-hit reroll though). So shooting at the unit is nessesary to remove the reroll that makes them more effective, but if they lose too many, suddenly the last guy goes into a suicidal Die-Hard rage and becomes more dangerous. Also, allowing the Ethereal to take veteran FW or veteran Shadow Warriors (+1 WS, +1S Possibly, +1A, +1I possibly, and they get reroll to wound as well. However, at 50% they lose the reroll wounds but keep the reroll to-hits. The Survivor's Rage would instead make him Fearless instead of Stubborn, FnP, and perhaps eternal warrior?). However, the unit would be hampered by no or very limited drones/wargear that could be taken (Along the lines of a kroot carnivore squad), so they'd be a one-hit wonder. They wouldn't be better stealthsuits, they'd be stealthy assassin types, with less/no shooting but fast omnomnom of small MEQ or weaker squads (combat squad=yes, full tac squad=maybe, assault squad=no).

darkPrince010 wrote:True, but the Tau have a massive lack of templates in their army, something that really comes and bites them in the ass when they have to fight orks or a Nid swarm. Perhaps allow them to buy a Carbine (Assault 2 Pinning 18" S5 AP5) or a Photonic Launcher (Heavy 1 Sm. Blast 18" S3 Ap-), with carbine being a free swap from pulse rifles, and the Launcher being an additional 2 or 3 pts per model. The micro-targeter is cool, but would need to be more like 2 or 3 pts per model for it to be worth it for FW; Otherwise, they'd be the price of a SM for -1WS, -1BS, -1S, -1T, -1 Sv, -1 Ld, and without the ATSKnF or heavy weapon options.

I meant per squad, I've now increased price anyways to 10 pts per squad.
I agree with giving Suits T5. Damn Log Fang spam...

Oh, in that case, it's well costed. I roll enough 1s to jump on that like a rabid badger. Maybe make it a sort of converted Marker Drone or something, so they can use it as an ablative wound if gak goes down...

The T4 suits is so damned annoying because of the preponderance of S8+ weapons. I think (IIRC) the older codexes had way fewer S8+ weapons, so it was a more acceptable risk. But now, with everyone and their granny toting a lascannon or missile launcher around, it means the crisis suits basically get to kill a couple of transports or MEQs before getting splattered.
People wonder why Tau hate horde armies, and it isn't because we can't deal with them in volume of dakka; It's because they turn 3 full Crisis suit squads into half of 1 in 1 or 2 rounds of shooting tops with a missile swarm.

Also, what're people's thoughts on giving the Gun Drones their TL carbine OR a single non-TL Photonic Launcher (The template) shot? Or should that just be a different type of Gun Drone? I'd like to reverse my previous statement, and say that Rending on the FW carbines actually would be needed, to make it a worthwhile purchase if the Photonic launcher is a seperate gun (perhaps call the Rending carbine a Channeled Ion Blaster, as homage to the Cyclic Ion Blaster?)

darkPrince010 wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:They join their brothers and form the dark 6th caste, the Shadow caste.

^^ WIN. That would indeed be some awesome fluff.

My thoughts were that they would have WS4 or 5, I4, S3 T3 (They're not in suits, they have seperate generator packs), and they have a number of abilities tied to if they've taken casualties, or how many they've taken (Sorta showing their strong pack and brotherhood ties). So they get the to-hit reroll as long as they're above 50%, and if the unit is reduced to 1 model, that model is Stubborn and gets Feel no Pain (no to-hit reroll though). So shooting at the unit is nessesary to remove the reroll that makes them more effective, but if they lose too many, suddenly the last guy goes into a suicidal Die-Hard rage and becomes more dangerous. Also, allowing the Ethereal to take veteran FW or veteran Shadow Warriors (+1 WS, +1S Possibly, +1A, +1I possibly, and they get reroll to wound as well. However, at 50% they lose the reroll wounds but keep the reroll to-hits. The Survivor's Rage would instead make him Fearless instead of Stubborn, FnP, and perhaps eternal warrior?). However, the unit would be hampered by no or very limited drones/wargear that could be taken (Along the lines of a kroot carnivore squad), so they'd be a one-hit wonder. They wouldn't be better stealthsuits, they'd be stealthy assassin types, with less/no shooting but fast omnomnom of small MEQ or weaker squads (combat squad=yes, full tac squad=maybe, assault squad=no).

Because of their small number and so that Tau doesn't become completely HtH, they should be 0-1, but should be troops or fast attack so they don't become too expensive. They should also be armed with either a large two-hand katana (+1 Strength and 6++ due to Tau fiddling) or two daggers (+1 A and 5++ In CC).

They shouldn't really have huge ties with the Etherals, because they just met and don't have the fear of returning to Mont'au.

I was thinking a 0-1 Troop, but a Scoring Unit, so you could have 1 or 2 (depending on if you took the Veteran Shadow Warriors with the Ethereal). I love the 2-hand katana idea for fluff, and the option to have both would be nice so they can deal with MEQ a bit better.

As for Ethereals, I was thinking it'd be more of like them having pledged a blood oath to protect him (Recall that the fluff suggests the ethereals may have some sort of mind control or pheromones or something on Tau), but if they don't have the fear of mont'au, perhaps that would mean the basic guys are all stubborn, and the veterans are fearless perhaps?

I'd like a pulse carbine to be assault 2, its supposed to be smaller, more portable, and intended for close action (which to me translates into firing quicker too)

I would love to see drones as fearless....that shouldnt have to be explained, they're robots. and as a troops choice would be cool as well

I like farsight as he his, but I would also like it it if he gave an I+1 or even a WS+1 to your whole army, its in the fluff that not only does he train his troops for fights against the orks but also for close combat in general

@Darkprince

That would be pretty cool. Veterans should be pretty damn expensive then.

Another idea would be to have them get a choice to have a dagger and a pistol or maybe a handbow?

@Dualface

A +1 WS should already be in this. It makes him much better.

@Dualface: Agreed. I think assault 2 instead of assault 1 rending might be better for the drone carbines. As for farsight, the +1 WS and +1I should both be automatic, and bump his unit cost up to compensate.

@yamgrenade: That's what I was thinking originally, was a sword and a pulse pistol (so they'd be one of the 2 units including ejection system pilots, that carry them). So maybe they can pick between the katana, 2 daggers, or the dagger and pistol.

And sniper drone spotters

Yeah. Honestly, I'm surprised Ethereals didn't have one too. Another possible upgrade for the Shadow Warriors could be the team Leader/Mont'ui (since I figure mont'au means something along the lines of darkness or night, why not use that prefix? ) can get 2 of the pulse pistols (count as TL). Probably not 100% accurate in fluff, but it'd look damn cool

Well, Mont'ka is the killing blow, And Mont'au is the Time of terror. I belve "Mont" means kill. Anyway, If there is a sargent, he needs to have a FREAKING POWER WEAPON. Tau have literally none, except for Far-sights sword, and no-body uses him anyway.

Perhaps a "Hypervelocity Spike"? Gives the unit in question a single S10 Ap1 attack on the first round of combat (basically a point-blank single railgun shot), possibly even allowing for a viable way for Tau without EMP grenades to assault a vehicle! (Oh, and give the Shadow Warriors the option to buy EMP grenades too).

As for Farsight, the only reason I'm not taking him is I'd be a suit or two short of the full crisis potential, and our local tourney organizer apparently whines whenever that many crisis suits shows up

As for the name, I dinked around on here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Lexicon) and was thinking the prefix could be Erra (From Shadowsun's "Shaserra," with "Shas" meaning fire~sun?). Perhaps instead of "Erra'la," since they're outside the caste system and ranks, they could be "Erra'hui" (Hidden Shadow) or for the veterans, "Erra'es" (Powerful Shadow) or something along those lines.

@darkPrince010, I prefer my Evade Evade idea to the Stand And Shoot idea because

1. I think it will work better.
2. I think opponents will find it fairer, since they at least can try to push Tau infantry off the map by charging them.
3. I think it is more Tauish in the sense that the Tau are a fire and manoeuver army.

However, Stand And Shoot might be an option -- there's no reason to restrict Fire Warriors to only one response.

@yamgrenade, there are lots of reasons why Tau might have melee units however the fluff says they don't and most players choose Tau because of the differences compared with the other factions.

Hmm. Perhaps have Stand and Shoot and the Evade, Evade! be default tactics, and have the 2x shot, the +1 cover save, and/or the Rain of Fire be optional additional purchases for the army or commander? Just a thought.

As for the melee unit, while it doesn't fit the fluff if it was a regular caste, the fluff of it being from samples lost on a distant jungle and Tau staying in a primitive, tight-spaces jungle seem like they'd shift their tactics to combat more suited to the area. As for the army and overall crunch, it's still just as fragile as a standard FW squad, and you can only have 1, possibly 2 of the squads total in the army, preventing the entire force from being entirely these new melee troops.

yamgrenade wrote:I know it is pinning already, I was saying that drones should keep pinning, because rending drones would be kinda OP Maybe have it so they can elect to use their grenade launcher instead, so make it-

Pulse carbine- S5 AP5 18'' Assault 1 Rending (For firewarriors only?)

Pulse Grenade- S3 AP- 12'' Heavy 1 Small Blast, Pinning

This makes them more versatile and useful against more armies.

Your Harbringer sounds like a good design, maybe roll it back to +3 though.

Sadly the game has turned into a CC fest and tau are - in effect - showing up to a sword fight with a pocket knife. I would not be averse to seeing the tau changed to allow for more fire.

Pulse Rifle - heavy 2 30" S5 - This preserves it as a firepower unit but takes away any mobility.
Pulse Carbine - assault 2 18" S5 - This puts the carbine as the mobile choice.

But then you have as much use for rifles as we do for carbines now...Tau that have no mobility are doomed to fail. I see it every game when they try to dig in, because all that happens is they get rushed and killed.

The shadow caste is just cool and badly needed. Don't stress out about them tooooo much

Plus, pulse rifle FW hopping out of a D-fish would be S.O.L. if there were any nearby enemies. I think making them Rapid Fire with the 2x shot at 15" (Or maybe more than that...) would be sufficient, along with adding the optional Tactic of the Heavy 2 if needed.
The carbine still seems to be underpowered even in our Fairy-Land rules, so I personally think the FW version should keep Rending (Definitely not for the drones though )

Maybe there could be a way to upgrade the rifles with a bi-pod, making them Heavy 2. I think the carbine should be either Assault 2 or Assault 1 Rending. Imagine Devilfishing a whole squad of them 18'' to anything- That anything will die to 24 S5 Rending shots.

I probably sound like a broken record, but I prefer the idea of an army-wide Tactic for the Heavy 2 instead. That way, you have some tactical flexibility in case stuff goes to crap.
Also, 24 rending shots will become 12 hits, so 2 rending wounds and 8 regular ones. It would cause the pin test on marines, but wouldn't eat them alive (This is of course assuming no markerlights though...)

Then you could equip your whole army with bi-pods. And I guess you are right about the rending- I'll concede that point.

I dunno. With markerlights to get BS5, you'll eat an entire tac marine squad if the dice gods feel like obeying the laws of averages. The balance is the 18" range; If you roll crap, you're within assault and omnomnom range for whatever you shot at. Plus, this would allow a strike team of FW with carbines to possibly break vehicles (2 possible glances on up to Arm 14...).

And as for the bi-pods, I guess that would be a bit more Tau-like than IG-esque orders, and it would be tactically ok if using the bipod was optional (declared in the movement phase or something). Man, now I'm really tempted to convert some of my ten-bajillion FW to Shadow Warriors...

yamgrenade wrote:But then you have as much use for rifles as we do for carbines now...Tau that have no mobility are doomed to fail. I see it every game when they try to dig in, because all that happens is they get rushed and killed.

The shadow caste is just cool and badly needed. Don't stress out about them tooooo much

Otherwise leave the rifle as is and up the carbine ROF to 2. The failing of the carbine is that pinning sounds good and overpowering with ROF 2 but with the preponderance of fearless units, you really have a hard time pinning anything and when they are packing LD 9 or 10, we are talking 1 in 12 that you are going to get a pin result. As far as I am concerned, drop pinning even though it makes sense fluff wise and give them a ROF of 2. That actually puts a choice in front of a tau, reach out and touch at 30" if you can go stationary or 18" ROF 2 intead of rapid fire 12" ROF 2.

The core of the tau problem is markerlights are your ace-in-the-hole however the codex as written makes them too rare. And then you have the best concentration of fire being 26 shots at 12" it just isn't going to do enough to prevent assaults. I mean 13 hits, 8 wounds converts into 3 dead marines. Drop a markerlight and we go to 20 hits and 5 dead marines. Drop two markerlights and we are talking 23 hits and perhaps 6 dead marines. That is for tau firewarriors with rifles at 12" so you are talking 4 to 7 surviving marines that are going to charge your firewarriors. Not exactly a winning proposition. It all sounds good except good luck at getting 2 markerlights on a target when you are talking 30 points to put a markerlight drone or +20 points to arm a squad leader with a markerlight. That leaves pathfinders as the only cheap option and they are going to be out-costed by virtue of the enemy targeting them and the fact that you have to invest in a devilfish for them automatically.

darkPrince010 wrote:...Man, now I'm really tempted to convert some of my ten-bajillion FW to Shadow Warriors...

Haha, I'm already working on it. I'll show some pics when I am done

DAaddict wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:But then you have as much use for rifles as we do for carbines now...Tau that have no mobility are doomed to fail. I see it every game when they try to dig in, because all that happens is they get rushed and killed.

The shadow caste is just cool and badly needed. Don't stress out about them tooooo much

Otherwise leave the rifle as is and up the carbine ROF to 2. The failing of the carbine is that pinning sounds good and overpowering with ROF 2 but with the preponderance of fearless units, you really have a hard time pinning anything and when they are packing LD 9 or 10, we are talking 1 in 12 that you are going to get a pin result. As far as I am concerned, drop pinning even though it makes sense fluff wise and give them a ROF of 2. That actually puts a choice in front of a tau, reach out and touch at 30" if you can go stationary or 18" ROF 2 intead of rapid fire 12" ROF 2.

The core of the tau problem is markerlights are your ace-in-the-hole however the codex as written makes them too rare. And then you have the best concentration of fire being 26 shots at 12" it just isn't going to do enough to prevent assaults. I mean 13 hits, 8 wounds converts into 3 dead marines. Drop a markerlight and we go to 20 hits and 5 dead marines. Drop two markerlights and we are talking 23 hits and perhaps 6 dead marines. That is for tau firewarriors with rifles at 12" so you are talking 4 to 7 surviving marines that are going to charge your firewarriors. Not exactly a winning proposition. It all sounds good except good luck at getting 2 markerlights on a target when you are talking 30 points to put a markerlight drone or +20 points to arm a squad leader with a markerlight. That leaves pathfinders as the only cheap option and they are going to be out-costed by virtue of the enemy targeting them and the fact that you have to invest in a devilfish for them automatically.

I think Assault 2 18" Rending Carbines are good. Rifles should be Assault 2 or Rapid Fire.

Markerlights should be assault. And cheaper

Yeah, either markerlights need to be assault, or the mandatory D-fish needs to be removed.

I personally like the idea of Assault 2 pulse rifles and the Assault 1 or 2 Rending carbines. Otherwise, rifles and carbines are only seperated by a range difference of 6" for an equal tradeoff ("...exchange for a carbine at no cost...").
Plus, I would really beg for the ability to buy one of Kilcrazy's ideas for a drone: Point Defense Drone (Essentially acts like a Flechette Discharger). Imagine that: Getting 2 of those for a front-line carbine FW squad. Suddenly, your opponnent actually has to tactically weigh the decision to charge you (and wipe the squad) at the cost of possible a couple of units.

I do agree, all the non-pathfinder options for markerlights are too damn expensive (Marker Drones should be 15-20 pts, not freaking 30), especially when you factor in the mandatory 10 pts for upgrading to an 'ui in FW squads to simply get access to the drones/markerlights/bonding knives (Why can't they get the 5pt team leader like the suits? Whyyyyy? )

Its just 5 pts...

Nope, upgrading to a Shas'ui for FW is 10 pts, as is the upgrade for Pathfinders for an 'ui too. meaning it'll be 15 points to get a bonding knife or target lock or whatever. Suits can get it for 5, but iirc, FW have to go directly to 'ui, without passing go or collecting $200. :(

darkPrince010 wrote:Hmm. Perhaps have Stand and Shoot and the Evade, Evade! be default tactics, and have the 2x shot, the +1 cover save, and/or the Rain of Fire be optional additional purchases for the army or commander? Just a thought.

As for the melee unit, while it doesn't fit the fluff if it was a regular caste, the fluff of it being from samples lost on a distant jungle and Tau staying in a primitive, tight-spaces jungle seem like they'd shift their tactics to combat more suited to the area. As for the army and overall crunch, it's still just as fragile as a standard FW squad, and you can only have 1, possibly 2 of the squads total in the army, preventing the entire force from being entirely these new melee troops.

Yes, however the point I want to put forward is that many Tau players chose Tau because they have no melee.

If players want a faction that is good at melee there is plenty of choice. There are a dozen other factions in the game which can all built with melee in mind. Even IG have got knife fighter conscripts, Rough Riders and power weapons for their officers.

Tau players want an army that is bad at melee but offers options for clever tactics to avoid it.

All of the above is true. However, the current gun-to-a-knife-fight emphasis in WH40K right now makes this a needed option.

This isn't to give Tau a dedicated ass-kicker in CC, but to give a bait-and-switch unit to draw some fire. Sorta like a weaker Kroot meatshield, but harder to hit, and approximately as effective in CC (Can finish off a weakened squad, but won't gobble them up all on it's lonesome).

Problem is, the current Tau codex is not that flexible in it's build options as compared to the other codexes, with the exception of Necrons. The only 2 main repeat-tournament lists I've heard of are suit spam or Kroot spam, and possibly the Positional Relay Shenanigans (if you consider that a real list). In fact, the limit of 2 of these squads max (if you include one with the Ethereal) means you can't build a melee army around this without resorting to Kroot spam. It just offers an alternative to Kroot for a fire magnet to give the other Tau elements time to shoot

darkPrince010 wrote:

@Sabrx: Maybe, but assuming you're on a 4'x6' board, the Scout move allows you to position them wherever you need them to shoot on the board with their 36" gun. Infiltrate would just put them unnecessarily close to squads that could (and would) eat them for breakfast

You assume Pathfinders will be placed within over 18" of enemy units.

Think again.

They can be place ANYWHERE as long as they aren't within TLOS (12") or in TLOS (18"). So I can place them far back 36" on top of a three story building. There's only so much you can do with scout move on foot.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Tau players want an army that is bad at melee but offers options for clever tactics to avoid it.

.

Or to be as brutal in shooting as all those CC armies are in melee.... Personally, I'm tired of hearing people complain about how 30" range and S5 guns are so great when it only takes a couple of MEQs to off an entire squad.

Where Tau need the most help:
Anti-Horde
Anti-MEQ
CC

KK touched on it a page back, there's no reason Tau can't have options to either do something like stand and shoot or like Evade! Evade! or even something else. They could be purchasable tactics army-wide or for individual squads or even types of units (pathfinders get evade evade and firewarrios get stand and shoot).

As for being a shooting army, they need to be better at it. That means either higher volume of fire (IG blobs) or quality of fire (lower AP on basic weapon). MEQ players might cry but a pulse rifle that's AP3 would ensure that some damage is done as they cross the field. Have the weapons able to shoot on variable frequencies or something, higher AP means lower S and vice versa. The Plasma Rifle starts out as S5 AP5 and can be modified each turn S4 AP4 S3 AP 3, etc. You could even say that a if a gun is modified, it's heavy 1 that turn. I'd take this over armywide BS4 as it would make those MEQs hesitate and actually maneuver instead of just steamrolling my firewarriors. They still get munched in combat but less would make it across the field.

I'm with most of you in that there needs to be something different that represents how the Tau do things instead of being MEQ or GEQ etc.

Sorry I'm late to the convo, but in which FAQ were the kroot changes already made? I have looked around and can't find them.

Man, I like the idea of modulating the phase variance!
Plus, bumping it to S6 Ap6 or S7 Ap- (Maybe?) would allow for an anti-armor option. 12 S7 shots into the front of a Rhino would pop it just as easily as 6 TL missiles (S7 Ap4) or a railgun, and allow for the ability to take on bigger tanks, while still not touching the hallowed Av14 the SM treasure so dearly, or IDing said space marine heroic types. Plus, keeping it a single shot means you can still biff and end up with a tank barreling towards you, angry and covered in smoking plasma burns...

As for the 3 main points, I agree that we need anti-MEQ, but I think that with the proper application of markerlights to drop saves, punching through hordes isn't too bad. As for CC, Tau just need better screens, not better CC units. Drone Squadrons would be perfect if they weren't eating up a Fast Attack slot (Non-Scoring Troops would be perfect)

I think the strap modifier would be too overpowered. With a S3 AP3 gun, they're essentially Stormtrooper-level powerful, with far more range, not to mention the fact they have the option to become insanely powerful against vehicles (10 strenght 7 shots?) and the entire thing is too complex for a basic trooper.


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I think the strap modifier would be too overpowered. With a S3 AP3 gun, they're essentially Stormtrooper-level powerful, with far more range, not to mention the fact they have the option to become insanely powerful against vehicles (10 strenght 7 shots?) and the entire thing is too complex for a basic trooper.

The S6Ap6 and S7 were more following the Fridge Logic for the lulz.

However, Tau have no non-suit reliable MEQ killers. Period. And they need this badly, since the current "Rhino Carpool" SM armies mean Tau are forced to dedicate at least one if not several suits to dedicated anti-armor, weakening the ability to deal with the crunchy models inside.
Even a Fireknife or Burning Eye unit can barely hold the line vs a vanilla tac squad, and that's at 12" or less. All the Tau have to deal with marines is overwhelming their saves, which is not what Tau were designed to do (If you wanted that, play IG with their flashlights).
True, the Ap3 would be perfect for killing MEQ, but then they're wounding on 5+ instead of 3+ (12 ranged shots from a squad, no markerlights, would be 2 dead MEQs. With BS5 from markerlights, it'd be 3 or 4).

Also, Firewarriors are still fragile little buggers, and can get templated to kingdom come should you have pie plates lying around. You will kill at least 50% of them when you shoot, regardless of if they're in cover or in the open but getting their regualr 4+ save. The entire army is suppossed to be a shooty glass cannon, the dakka balance to DE on the other end of the spectrum.
ATM, however, they're a glass watergun, and rely on a very few number of vaguely-viable lists to stay afloat from being Necron-level outdated. Tau should have dozens of viable Torunament-level lists, just like SM, DE, Orks, IG, etc, not 3 or 4 and a blatant exploitation of a single item of wargear.

How about ubgrading Ion Cannons to Heavy 5 and rending. Make it an option for Broadsides, and this would offer some reliable, long range anti-MEQ. In addition, adding TL Plasma Cannon turrets as an option for HH would help out a lot.


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I'm still not entirely convinced on the variable Str/AP. It seems fair enough, but it's the kind of rule you'd expect on SCs-it doesn't fit in with the Tau's theme of specialization.

True. Possibly make it a Shas'ui-only upgrade or something. As to why Ion cannons aren't Heavy 5 already is beyond me, although a pair of them on a Broadside might be a bit unwieldy

I personally think Pirahnas, D-fish, H-heads, and skyrays should all pick their secondary weapons from the suit system (only 1 system for pirahnas and D-fish, 2 for the others), with the caveat that both must be the same (So a single or TL version of a gun, but can't mix and match).

There does need to be some boost to FW though, because there is literally no reason atm to take them, since everything they can do can be done better by suits. Some clamor for BS4, but I think a change to make the rifles better would help.

darkPrince010 wrote:True. Possibly make it a Shas'ui-only upgrade or something. As to why Ion cannons aren't Heavy 5 already is beyond me, although a pair of them on a Broadside might be a bit unwieldy

I personally think Pirahnas, D-fish, H-heads, and skyrays should all pick their secondary weapons from the suit system (only 1 system for pirahnas and D-fish, 2 for the others), with the caveat that both must be the same (So a single or TL version of a gun, but can't mix and match).

There does need to be some boost to FW though, because there is literally no reason atm to take them, since everything they can do can be done better by suits. Some clamor for BS4, but I think a change to make the rifles better would help.

Burst cannon ROF 4 - this is to make stealth suits at least desirable and perhaps even forbid an XV8 with one.
The rifle needs ROF 2 I would like a heavy 30"/ rapid fire. Think of it, for less points a SW can field a long fang squad that puts out 15 S5 shots to 36" for less than a tau pays to field 12 FW with rifles. Add to that BS 4 vs 3, T4 vs 3, AV 3+ vs 4+ not to mention a SW can survive if not thrive in CC.
The carbine needs ROF 2 or it will never be played. Given the choice between stationary 30" or mobile 18" fire there might be builds that carbines make sence but with a ROF of 1 it will never get played.

Markerlights need to be cheaper and more pervasive. Make it a free buy for a shas'ui. Make drones cost the same no matter what. Who cares if it provides a 4++ save, TL carbine fire or a markerlight. Markerlights are only impressive when something ELSE fires at the target. It also eliminates the hue and cry for BS 4 for FW. They shouldn't have that but making markerlights either more abundant or persistent. (A set modifier for markerlights that hit a target rather than flexible spending of markerlights.)
Make seeker missiles renewable. 10 pts for a 1 shot S8 Ap3 missile is worthless unless it also auto precludes cover saves.

@darkprince
I wasn't really thinking of it going up, just as a more focused shot that affects armor more than skin. Just a thought.

@DAaddict
We don't really need BC's to be rof 4 (not that I'd complain if they were), that'd make them too like heavy bolters with a shorter range. They just need the option of boosted long-barrel burst canons from FW (36" S5 AP5 Assault 3).

Agree that something needs to be done with markerlights. Possibly a combination of markerlights and my idea above, lower AP for each markerlight used with lowest being 3 maybe.

DAaddict wrote:[ 10 pts for a 1 shot S8 Ap3 missile is worthless unless it also auto precludes cover saves.

QFT. I don't play SM, so I wasn't aware of the disparity between a FW squad and Long Fangs. I do like the standardization of drone costs, which will make it more even (especially with the better carbine). I still feel the Carbine needs Rending, because otherwise the 24 shots a 12-man FW team will put into it will bounce off a SM squad (W/ Markerlights: 5-6 dead MEQs. W/out: 3-4. With Rending and w/out lights: 4-5. W/ Rending and lights: 7-8). Even with 75% of a SM squad gone, they can still shoot up (and assault/wipe) a FW squad, so they won't be a be-all, end-all unit.

I personally like Killcrazy's Reload idea (Roll 1d6, if it's less than the # of seekers on the vehicle, Skyray in this case, it reloads 1 missile), at least for the Skyray. Just drop the pts for the regular ones (To 5 or whatever it is for Hunter-Killer missiles)


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@agnosto: I don't think the markerlights should drop an armor save, but the Tau do need a way to pop MEQs. Maybe have the rifle have only 2 settings: Charged (Heavy 1, 30", S3 Ap3) or Regular (30" Assault 2 S5 Ap5)?

Vespids are meant to be an anti-MEq unit but unfortunately GW buggered up the stats and points and made them too crappy to use.

Crisis suits would be a better anti-MEq unit if you could have more of them. That's why I propose making Crisis units (and Broadsides) 1-4 instead of 1-3. It's also more fluffy, as Tau count in base 8.


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Sniper Drone Teams are also meant to be anti-MEq but again, GW cocked them up by making them Heavy, and too expensive because the whole team can be killed by killing the team leader.

Yeah. I would love if the vespids had a template instead of 12" gun (Keeping them as a fragile but potent unit they were intended to be), and the Sniper teams really need to be able to take regular drones as well, if for nothing more than ablative wounds.

Plus, I forgot about the base 8 thing. That would really help, as you could throw in a single drone and not panic (according to current rules) if he was popped, as oppossed to the mad sprint for the board edge as soon as the robot bites it.

Snipers could also be made a troops choice, and taht would be useful. Vespids should get either better weaponry or more survivability.

Also, I think I will be making a thread about the shadow caste. will be up soon.

Cool. For modeling or rules or both? Either way, I'm interested

I botched the model But I'll make another one soon. It'll focus on rules and fluff right now.

Cool. I'll talk to some of the guys at my club, and see if they'll agree to let me give it a shot (Probably not though. They're die-hards when it comes to RAW and don't like fan-made stuff very much )

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/384133.page#3091291

Link there. Rules should be pretty fair.

As for your friends, thats a shame. See if there is anyone who will test it with you in a friendly match up.

Probably one or two, but the rest will snub their noses until it comes out in an official FAQ or Errata. (Honestly, my Nid friend bitches all the time about not being able to take a Prime in an Spod, but do they ever consider saying "Screw the rules" and ignoring it? Naaaah... :S )

Mine does exactly that!

And wipes all my fire warriors

All Tau should have the ability to Pre-Measure ranges for Shooting.

If you play enough, you can easily eyeball the distance and won't need to pre-measure. You can also use the board at reference. Length of the board is the range of a Railgun and width of the board is the range of an Imperial Missile Launcher.

IMO, Railguns should have the lancing the special rule, wining back their title as best long range anti-tank weapon in the game.

True. They basically have it already, and it'd make it so a 2+ dings the pesky LR instead of a 4+. Or, give that to the railhead only, since right now his railgun isn't as cost-effective as the TL one on broadsides.

As for pre-measuring, while I personally think it's a stupid rule that basically is designed to give experienced players an edge over newbies, it wouldn't work well for a veteran playing Tau, since they'd probably know the distance without measuring. Perhaps they could add an optional piece of wargear to bump pulse rifle ranges by 6" for 1-3pts, so you have a full 3' instead of 2'-and-a-bit?

There's a reasonable chance that pre-measuring will be dropped in 40K 6th edition anyway, so I wouldn't push it as a major benefit for a new Tau codex.

Kilkrazy wrote:Vespids are meant to be an anti-MEq unit but unfortunately GW buggered up the stats and points and made them too crappy to use.

Crisis suits would be a better anti-MEq unit if you could have more of them. That's why I propose making Crisis units (and Broadsides) 1-4 instead of 1-3. It's also more fluffy, as Tau count in base 8.


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Sniper Drone Teams are also meant to be anti-MEq but again, GW cocked them up by making them Heavy, and too expensive because the whole team can be killed by killing the team leader.

Agreed - in theory the tau have their anti-MEQ:
Ion Cannon - too low of a ROF to make taking one on a hammerhead esp when I can have a railgun for about 25% more.
Sniper Teams - again a sniper team or a broadside. equivalent in cost. Now if the team cost only about 60 meaning I have a choice of two broadsides or 3 sniperteams then maybe.
Vespids - low survivability in HTH with a 12" range gun = death.
XV8 - Of course they can but they are asked to do everything already.

I personally think the anti-MEQ should fall to the Fire Warriors, so there's motivation to take those units for something other then objective-campers. Currently, although they are effective vs. GEQ and orks that aren't in cover, most tournaments are so MEQ and SM heavy that they go from a possible asset to a liability, especially if it's a random-matchup (No team captain to determine who fights who from each team or something similar).

Bumping it so that 2 or 3 squads of full FW shooting (and 3-4 squads at long non-rapidfire or whatever range) can pop a full tac squad out of cover, and it'd start to become a viable option (since the SM will still eat the FW alive if they reach CC). You have the choice of either wiping a squad completely, but limiting the number of affected squads, or you can weaken a couple but still have to fear their shooting and assaults afterwards.

I would jjust make vespids and snipers what they were meant to be; good, reliable anti-MEQ.

True. Snipers ignore cover if a unit is not in area terrain (Dunno if that would include the KFF or not), and give vespids the flamer template This still leaves the issue of finding a reason to take FW in the first place though, apart from objective campers.

There should maybe just be a choice to have the whole squad of Fire Warriors take Rail-Rifles, making them snipers and good anti-MEQ.

Man, I would kill to give them rail rifles, even for 13+ pts per model. Tag a 10-man MEQ with 5 markerlights, and you've almost wiped them automatically

Kill Mat Ward. Then we have a chance of getting a competent one!

I'd use a rail rifle, but it'd probably hit something in the way first

Damn cover saves!

The rifle would blow a nice hole in a passing double-decker bus though...

Yea, but it would still hit him, but he would roll a 4 right before he died

!Edit! The codex modifications are up on the first page! Please let me know what you think (about the Tactics in particular)

Good job polishing the thread about polishing the Tau about polishing off their enemies

The tactics look good, I was a little hesitant at first but these look good. How do the caste abilities work?

Same as a Tactic. The only caveat is an army can only buy one of them (Points not yet determined), and the abilities are still on a squad-Ld-check basis for each squad to be affected. I was thinking basically for there to be the different options to allow you to either tailor a list slightly better for particular matchups (should you choose to be so crass ), and to allow the option of supplementing a possible army deficiency:
Anti-MEQ option (Earth Caste's optional S3 Ap3),
Anti-mech (Fire Caste all S5 Ap5 are rending vs vehicles),
Anti-dakka (Shadow caste's +1 to cover saves),
Anti-horde (Air caste's doubling of markerlight effects)
Objective-Camper-Shifting (Water caste's Ld reduction for 25% checks)
and Anti-pussy (Ethereal Caste's 50%+ = Fearless. This was possibly influenced by my "Winged Broadsides"... )

The basic two tactics are to allow Tau about to be in CC against several squads (Not something you want to have happen, but occurs much too often) to either attempt to blast those attacking them (Stand and Shoot, good for tarpit units that won't wipe the FW squad but would probably win CC by a slight margin of wounds caused, like IG or termagaunts) or run back and fire on the next turn (Evade, Evade! to avoid anything that will wipe the squad). I can anticipate some mixed usage of this (Evade, Evade to buy another round of shooting, and then Stand and Shoot when/if your back is against the board edge). Currently my only issue is that the Evade, Evade may make it too hard for enemies to successfully close combat with them if the enemy isn't cavalry with their 12" assault. I want to say that instead maybe they should fall back 2d6" and the enemy gets their charge +1d6", but that means that if they park a land raider 1" away from you, the laws of averages say you're screwed. Don't know if that means it's a good or a bad thing. :/

I would rethink Evade. It seems a little too OP. Maybe they only get it on a 4+, or just say no shooting for the next round?

Hmmm. Perhaps they count as moving, and if caught fight at I1 and cannot use any grenades they have? Plus, I agree, the distance needs to be tweaked a bit so it usually, but by no means always, gets them out of the way.

Sounds good to me.

Ok. Changed it to add 1d3" to the attacker's assault distance (Or should it be they add their Initiative? I'm torn between the two, as it would help make faster armies like DE more effective against this tactic). Which do you think sounds better?

I think distance, as anyone can easily double Tau Initiative.

Why do you think Evade Evade is over powered?

I'm not totally sold on the Krootox rules...

Personally, I just can't see them with a 3+ save. I would rather that they be inexpensive with high toughness and wounds, but with a really god-awful save to represent their lack of actual armour. Maybe the option to buy some kind of shield generator for a 5+ invuln from shooting (the envy of all my Tyranids...) but what I would really like to see is an inexpensive creature(120-150pts?) that relies on toughness and wounds to survive. It would really set it apart from other MC's, potentially filling a niche in the Tau Codex as a decent unit for holding up foes in CC.

Now of course, the obvious rebuttal to this is "if it's tarpitting something and dies in the Tau phase, the enemy unit just got to consolidate and assault something for free!"
Well, how's this for a solution. Make some kind of rule where if it dies in the Tau phase, it does some kind of "for the greater good" fall and attempts to squish the enemy under it's massive bulk. How about the enemy unit that killed it in assault takes a strength test or doesn't get to assault in the next phase? I say awesome. (That fallen giant fantasy template comes to mind... but more birdlike...)

Kilkrazy wrote:Why do you think Evade Evade is over powered?

I think it's a great idea, but it seems like it could lead to a FW squad endlessly evading the attackers, who would be endlessly whittled down by other Tau.

The evading squad could roll low and get caught.
The evading squad could be run off the table edge.
The evading squad will no longer be on an objective, or in cover, etc that it might have wanted to occupy.

Assuming the assaulting squad is 6 inches away, you get away, double-tap at 12 inches, and then run away again. If they are 1'' away, the closest they could be, you get away on a 5+ (about a 10/36 chance you'll fail,) double tap, and run away again.

@Warboss: That's the feel I was trying to get for the Krootox: Really tough, and lots of wounds, but not unkillable. I was hoping for him to be the third main bullet sink apart from Kroot carnivores and Shadow Warriors. Perhaps they need to make an I test to assault, or to avoid being pinned "Caught under the bulk" (Pinning might be too OP though)

@Killcrazy: Tau evading is important, but Evade Evade without any bonus to the enemy movement or penalty on the FW movement means that if the enemy is 1.1" away from the FW squad before the charge, the FW have a 50% or better chance of rolling a 7 and skeddadling. If the enemy gets a +1d3" and roll a 3" bonus, the Tau still have (if I did my math right) a 1 in 6 chance of even evading that if the enemy was 1" away.
This will also encourage the use of Cavalry units against Tau FW (Can't evade a 12" charge as easily, especially if they're within 6" or so of you), and possibly cause an enemy to rethink charging FW in cover (Would you rather have them move up to 6" through the terrain in their phase, allowing you closer reach, or charge and risk them getting 7+" of Fall Back through the terrain you'll be slogging through).

I should hope that perhaps the assaulting player might take Evade Evade into account and pace his movement to overcome it.

The use of cavalry is a good example of thinking tactically.

Assault isn't meant to be an auto-win game mechanic.

Even with pacing movement you have a great chance of evading. Cavalry would be a great counter, but how many armies have them?

Looking at the mathhammer aspect, I was thinking of having it be +1d6" instead of 1d3. That way, from 1" away, if the enemy rolls a 6" extra move, the Tau has to roll an 11 or 12 to evade, and conversely, from 5" away even rolling a 6" bonus, the Tau has the 7+ on 2d6 to evade.
This way, no matter the distance, the Tau always will be caught by rolling a 2, and always evade with a 12, and it makes being in close proximity far more important for an assault. Plus, the Tau player will have to weigh the risk of drawing an enemy very deep into or behind their gunlines.

I like this more, but that should also get rid of penalties if they get caught. No need to nerf it

Well, the penalty would force a Tau player to decide to either lose even worse in CC but with a chance to escape, or to hold still and take on the enemy. I just don't want this tactic to become a no-brainer use-every-time ability. Although, the army-wide use of it and need to pass an Ld check to use it should balance it out. Plus, I think keeping the inability to also use Photon Grenades/EMP grenades during this tactic would still make it a bit of a decision.

darkPrince010 wrote: I just don't want this tactic to become a no-brainer use-every-time ability.

Assaulting a Tau unit is a no-brainer, use-every-time ability for practically all other armies. Why should Tau not have a counter tactic?

Kilkrazy wrote:

darkPrince010 wrote: I just don't want this tactic to become a no-brainer use-every-time ability.

Assaulting a Tau unit is a no-brainer, use-every-time ability for practically all other armies. Why should Tau not have a counter tactic?

....

Good point. I think the 1d6" bonus should be plenty, so the Tau still have a decent but not foolproof method of evading CC, and this will still leave non-FW squads (Mainly pathfinders and suits come to mind) vulnerable as ever since they don't get the Tactics ability.

oops