now for starters im not having a go at chaos lol, but as i know as much fluff as in my eldar and csm dex I have a question about wether sisters can succumb to the calls of chaos, my missus is thinking of making a sob army with a chaos influance, witch I think will look awsome but wonder if people will kick up a stink about it on the table.

Cheers guys.


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Oh and would be using sisters rules.

They've fallen to Chaos in the past, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Sounds interesting - there are a few instances of SOB under the influence of Chaos.

If its going to look good - then go for it

It could always be a Chaos Champion that has created its forces to mock the appearance of the Sisters even if its has not actual Sisters in the force.

I would be surprised if anyone got uptight about it but then people can be surprising!!

I think somewhere in the fluff it states that only one SoB has ever fallen to Chaos (not sure where it says it, so don't quote me on that... it just something I've seen once or twice on Dakka). If that happens to be true, then a fair number of people will become unfriendly when somebody shows up with a Chaos SoB army.

If I'm wrong about the fluff, then I can't think of why anyone would have a problem with it.

Still, it might just be safer to say that a Chaos Lord modelled his warband after the SoB to give the Emperor the finger, rather than have them be full-on fallen SoB. That way, you get Chaos-looking SoB models, without contradicting the fluff that some people care a little too much about.

There are imho 2 reasons why only one SoB ever fell to chaos:

1.) They are nearly incorruptable, almost as hard to corrupt as Grey Knights (no GK has ever fallen to Chaos)
2.) It would make no sense for Chaos to corrupt a SoB. It cost a lot of effort, and in the case that Chaos is successful, you have a 'normal' woman in Power Armor. No acts of faith what makes a SoB special anymore. They can get that a lot easier by corrupting a IG soldier.

Grimmzahn wrote:There are imho 2 reasons why only one SoB ever fell to chaos:

2.) It would make no sense for Chaos to corrupt a SoB. It cost a lot of effort, and in the case that Chaos is successful, you have a 'normal' woman in Power Armor. No acts of faith what makes a SoB special anymore. They can get that a lot easier by corrupting a IG soldier.

Chaos would try simply because its not been done - same as trying to corrupt GKights - they would try as they have infinite time and reources to spend and if they don not suceed (as they have not with GKs thus far) then they will just keep trying. Its also a bit like saying to the Powers - I bet you can't corrupt me - go on then lets see you try

thats said the Chaos Lord option is easiest to avoid arguments - you coudl evne say that the Lord strips dead or dying Sisters of their armour - make up some nasty fluff about the process involved..........

Oh and in a recent Cain novel some Sisters were mind controlled by a Chaos Lord for a time........but then not everyone takes BL publciations as canon.

Part of the appeal, especially for Slannesh, would be the fact that a pure and 'perfect' soldier of the Imperium has fallen to the ways of Chaos. Plus Sisters are much better trained than most Guardsmen anyway. And there new Patron could certainly grant them there own version of Acts of Faith if it wanted to.

It's certainly not impossible for Sisters to go to Chaos, although on the occasions I've seen/read it seems to be something exerting it's will over them rather than a true fall. That said, a Sister's Convent that ended up stuck in a Warp Storm or the Warp itself could certainly be tainted with time and patience. And most of the Powers are pretty patient, Khorne non-withstanding.

...I suddenly have the horrible feeling that them being ladies could give rise to some horrible 'Blood for the Blood God' jokes to be made, but that's too low for me. I don't heading for the gutter, but I'll avoid the sewers.

My friend is thinking of making some Chaos Sisters, and has even converted a few using Daemonette parts. They look pretty good.

Grimmzahn wrote:There are imho 2 reasons why only one SoB ever fell to chaos:

1.) They are nearly incorruptable, almost as hard to corrupt as Grey Knights (no GK has ever fallen to Chaos)
2.) It would make no sense for Chaos to corrupt a SoB. It cost a lot of effort, and in the case that Chaos is successful, you have a 'normal' woman in Power Armor. No acts of faith what makes a SoB special anymore. They can get that a lot easier by corrupting a IG soldier.

When did we get the idea that chaos are is of accountants? We corrupt these things, not because it is easy, but because they are hard.

Then why haven't the Tau been corrupted yet?

Ohhhh...right.
Because the expenditure of effort for a Daemon to corrupt/possess a Tau is absurdly not worth the effort.

@OP
Why didn't you write out "Sisters of Battle"? This is a forum. Write out your topic title fully and be descriptive, abbreviations really should only be acceptable in the Army List section.

I don't see why it couldn't happen. If some Chaos Lord had the resources he could put a bunch of women in power armor and have them be led by psykers (that way the powers are derived from the Warp and not Faith in the Emperor.)

That way you can have Chaos SoB without having to argue with people about how the SoB would never succumb to the predations of Chaos.

Personally, I think that if fully half of the Space Marine legions could turn traitor it isn't insanity to suggest that some Sisters might as well. YMMV

Kanluwen wrote:Then why haven't the Tau been corrupted yet?
Ohhhh...right.Because the expenditure of effort for a Daemon to corrupt/possess a Tau is absurdly not worth the effort.

Not sure - although isn't that a possible explanation of what is happening to Commander Farsight (although it might be other things I grant you) - also they did try quite hard in the Fire Warrior novel IRC to corrupt Tau, especially the POV character?

but as I said and others have suggested I would go with the fake Sisters army - made by a Chaos Lord to taunt the pure of the Imperium

Jon Garrett wrote:Part of the appeal, especially for Slannesh, would be the fact that a pure and 'perfect' soldier of the Imperium has fallen to the ways of Chaos. Plus Sisters are much better trained than most Guardsmen anyway. And there new Patron could certainly grant them there own version of Acts of Faith if it wanted to.

It's certainly not impossible for Sisters to go to Chaos, although on the occasions I've seen/read it seems to be something exerting it's will over them rather than a true fall. That said, a Sister's Convent that ended up stuck in a Warp Storm or the Warp itself could certainly be tainted with time and patience. And most of the Powers are pretty patient, Khorne non-withstanding.
[list]
...I suddenly have the horrible feeling that them being ladies could give rise to some horrible 'Blood for the Blood God' jokes to be made, but that's too low for me. I don't heading for the gutter, but I'll avoid the sewers.

My friend is thinking of making some Chaos Sisters, and has even converted a few using Daemonette parts. They look pretty good.

I like were your headed, espicaly with the faith stuff, and lol at the blood god. Thats funny.

Kanluwen wrote:Then why haven't the Tau been corrupted yet?

Ohhhh...right.
Because the expenditure of effort for a Daemon to corrupt/possess a Tau is absurdly not worth the effort.

@OP
Why didn't you write out "Sisters of Battle"? This is a forum. Write out your topic title fully and be descriptive, abbreviations really should only be acceptable in the Army List section.

Wow, I didnt write "sisters of battle" because I didnt want to, and if I did mean son of a bitch I wouldnt have used the commas lol. I didnt think of it as being an issue.

Thanks for all the replys and ideas guys.

Well Word Bearers are fanatical religious pyschos of Chaos, it's not to hard for me to believe a group of Sisters falls into the same level of religious fervor, to the point they still have faith points but thier alliance is with Chaos. I could even imagine them taking the role of religious emissaries to the marines or even a pet project of the Word Bearers themselves.

squidhills wrote:I think somewhere in the fluff it states that only one SoB has ever fallen to Chaos (not sure where it says it, so don't quote me on that... it just something I've seen once or twice on Dakka).

That's from their current Codex. Their nigh-incorruptability is a rather important aspect of the fluff, and even 1 amongst 30.000 is still a great shame to every Sororitas. The hunt for her is like a sacred duty to the Orders Militant.

The one Sister that has fallen was Miriael Sabathiel, a former Superior from the Order of Our Martyred Lady, who was captured by the Emperor's Children and was missing for quite some time - until she reappeared in the Pyrus Reach as a traitor. She has become a Champion of Slaanesh, leading her own warband out of the Inferno-class battlecruiser "Eternal Pain" into an unholy crusade against the Emperor's domain. Amongst numerous rank-and-file troops, her forces also consist of a band of Daemonettes and a bodyguard of CSM Terminators called "Sabathiel's Chosen". She has managed to kill her former Canoness Olga Karamanz (who was pursueing her with a very small escort to keep her fall a secret) in a trap, forcing Palatine Elana to take command of the Order as the conflict in the Reach escalated into full scale war between Chaos Undivided and the Imperial forces.



The character and her background originate from the Dark Millennium TCG from Specialist Games, canonized for the TT by her being mentioned in the WH Codex.

Though non-canon, several licensed products such as BL novels made entire Orders fall to Chaos - examples include "Daemonifuge" (an Order Pronatus on the world of Parnis and a Repentia Mistress on Ophelia VII) or "Redemption Corps" (where a Canoness allowed Orks to attack Imperial settlements to promote conflict). This is non-studio material and as such of no consequence to TT canon (Daemonifuge was even released before the WH Codex), but it does show some interesting ideas and inspiration for how one could go about a "Fallen SoB" army. Though personally I would avoid it for reasons of consistency and because I feel it would diminish the unique awesomeness of Miriael, I'll admit that the basic idea is not impossible (just extremely unlikely), for what happened to one can in theory happen to more - and I have seen some "converted" Chaos SoB miniatures that looked pretty cool. One in particular - a single Chaos Sister in a CSM HQ squad - had a pretty awesome design.

So if your wife really wants a Chaos SoB army, I'd recommend reading Daemonifuge.

Squidhills also had a pretty good idea concerning the "fake Sisters", though!

In a Ciaphas Cain book, a pair of sisters fought for the dark side.

To be fair, the one in "Redemption Corps" could be considered a 'radical' in the Istvaanian philosophy...except for one problem.

The problem is that she was being manipulated by a Genestealer Halfbreed.

And it's C Canon, before you ask Lynata.

Goddard wrote:In a Ciaphas Cain book, a pair of sisters fought for the dark side.

An entire covenenat did actually but then again they were all being psychically controlled by a guy who managed to turn large swathes of populations to his side as well as commissars.

The recent FFG daemonhunters book has the following...

The Sisters of the Adeptus Soritas are second only to the Grey Knights in thier incorruptibility. So few have turned to evil that they remain amongst the most trusted and valued warriors in the Imperium's arsenal.

... so... it would seem more than one has fallen.. but not all that many have. So it's a rare event as/when/if it does happen.

.. Given how closely some of the FFG stuff follows on from the GW stuff I wouldn't expect this to change much.. if at all.... as'when we get some more SoB info.

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is that she was being manipulated by a Genestealer Halfbreed.

Wow. Really? How ... why ...

Sheesh, some writers. I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, though, considering that the same novel supposedly also features 16 year old Celestians and a single Storm Trooper wasting an entire SoB HQ.

Kanluwen wrote:And it's C Canon, before you ask Lynata.

There's no such thing as "C-Canon" - either it's official as per GW or it isn't. And when Gav Thorpe says they don't care about what some novel says (as proven by the WH 'dex obviously discarding that Order Pronatus from Daemonifuge!), then that's that. Be glad about it, for else we'd have to accept Multilaser Marines and other atrocities as well.

I suppose you're referring to the blogpost from Mr. Dembski-Bowden, by the way? Note he just used that scale to explain the topic at hand, it's directly taken from the Star Wars franchise which he also mentioned in the article. A somewhat flawed comparison, though - the Star Trek franchise would have been a better choice, I think...

Goddard wrote:In a Ciaphas Cain book, a pair of sisters fought for the dark side.

Those books also want to make you believe that the Schola Progenium isn't gender-divided and that it's perfectly okay for a penitent and dedicated Sister to get drunk, get laid and play cards out of boredom, because hey, there's nothing to do in a Schola (prayers are boring) and who cares what kind of example she'd make for the next generation of Sororitas?

reds8n wrote:.. Given how closely some of the FFG stuff follows on from the GW stuff

Or how much it deviates at times...

I'll continue to stick with what GW says - much more reliable. Though both BL novels as well as the FFG RPG offer some cool ideas in the cases where they don't try to retcon Codex material.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is that she was being manipulated by a Genestealer Halfbreed.

Wow. Really? How ... why ...

Sheesh, some writers. I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, though, considering that the same novel supposedly also features 16 year old Celestians and a single Storm Trooper wasting an entire SoB HQ.

A "single Stormtrooper"(wrong. A single Stormtrooper Squad, loaded and kitted for extracting someone) wasting "an entire SoB hq" (that was full of like 15 Sisters, various Commissariat/Guard/Ministorum personnel amounting to I think another 30 people maybe, and hardly anyone actually armed and ready for battle).
The "16 year old Celestian" was the Genestealer 'Halfbreed', for lack of a better term. It's not great fiction, but it makes far more sense than you think. You never see an age for the Celestian, all you get is the mention that it appears to be very young looking, especially for a Celestian.

Kanluwen wrote:And it's C Canon, before you ask Lynata.

There's no such thing as "C-Canon" - either it's official as per GW or it isn't. And when Gav Thorpe says they don't care about what some novel says (as proven by the WH 'dex obviously discarding that Order Pronatus from Daemonifuge!), then that's that. Be glad about it, for else we'd have to accept Multilaser Marines and other atrocities as well.

I suppose you're referring to the blogpost from Mr. Dembski-Bowden, by the way? Note he just used that scale to explain the topic at hand, it's directly taken from the Star Wars franchise which he also mentioned in the article. A somewhat flawed comparison, though - the Star Trek franchise would have been a better choice, I think...

It really doesn't matter, because if Rodenberry was alive we'd be seeing the same thing in all likelihood regarding Star Trek.

And he used that scale to explain what he felt should be considered canon. I'd tend to agree with him on it, because he also has the knowledge of being on the inside.
Your post about "Gav Thorpe says they don't care about what some novel says" is, as ever, missing the context of the piece you kept quoting time and time and time again.

reds8n wrote:.. Given how closely some of the FFG stuff follows on from the GW stuff

Or how much it deviates at times...

Er...yeah, clearly that's the case?

More often than not, the FFG stuff has been privy to stuff before it's been printed by GW proper.

We saw this happen with the Taros Campaign book for Forge World as well.

KingmanHighborn wrote:Well Word Bearers are fanatical religious pyschos of Chaos, it's not to hard for me to believe a group of Sisters falls into the same level of religious fervor, to the point they still have faith points but thier alliance is with Chaos.

Isn't this how many faithful ones fall? They think they're doing the right thing all along while their actions keep sliding further and further away from what they supposedly represent.

look at it this way
primarchs = yes
marines = yes
sisters = why not its a game, if you like the idea then do it write some fluff convert paint and play then bask in your awesome original army

Kanluwen wrote:A "single Stormtrooper"(wrong. A single Stormtrooper Squad, loaded and kitted for extracting someone) wasting "an entire SoB hq" (that was full of like 15 Sisters, various Commissariat/Guard/Ministorum personnel amounting to I think another 30 people maybe, and hardly anyone actually armed and ready for battle). The "16 year old Celestian" was the Genestealer 'Halfbreed', for lack of a better term. It's not great fiction, but it makes far more sense than you think. You never see an age for the Celestian, all you get is the mention that it appears to be very young looking, especially for a Celestian.

Thanks for clarifying - I'm relying on readers' input here. This indeed makes it somewhat better, though the infiltration and mind control still sound a bit idiotic, considering we're talking about the one organization that cares most about the genetic purity of its members.

Kanluwen wrote:And he used that scale to explain what he felt should be considered canon. I'd tend to agree with him on it, because he also has the knowledge of being on the inside. Your post about "Gav Thorpe says they don't care about what some novel says" is, as ever, missing the context of the piece you kept quoting time and time and time again.

What context? There's not much context required when Gav (who has way more inside knowledge than Aaron) says that GW feels no need to accept novel stuff they dislike into their setting, or when George (who still is the Head of Publishing) says that a novel is an "alternative version of the world".

Actually ... I pretty much agree with what Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote in terms of canon, I just think you have mistaken what this scale actually means for the setting. In Star Wars, G-Canon overrides C-Canon whenever there is a contradiction. Meaning, no novel or RPG has the power to retcon anything in the setting when there's a GW book that has established a fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#The_Holocron

If you agree with Aaron on this, then we are actually of one mind, because I myself tend to occasionally "adopt" stuff from the licensed products when it doesn't contradict studio material. It's "the best of both worlds", so to say.

Though this still goes against what Gav wrote, so I have to accept that those little additions may potentially get into conflict with GW canon some day in the future, necessitating a "retcon" on my own part (for whatever I have used that 3rd party stuff).

Er...yeah, clearly that's the case?

If you think that the contradictions introduced by FFG will become official GW retcons ... well, that remains to be seen. I suppose it's just a matter of time until this question can be answered. About one month, if my suspicions are correct.

Though it's worth pointing out that the Grey Knights of the Daemon Hunter book sound notably different from their 5E Codex. Despite including the Dreadknight, all the daemon weapon stuff and "fighting fire with fire" seems to be amiss. In essence, FFG either chose to keep the 3E style of the Grey Knights or they didn't know about the 5E fluff. Either way, there's a conflict now.

Kanluwen wrote:More often than not, the FFG stuff has been privy to stuff before it's been printed by GW proper. We saw this happen with the Taros Campaign book for Forge World as well.

Uhm? Imperial Armour III is from 2005 - the RPG wasn't even in development back then.

Though I won't dispute the possibility that there's a lot of communication between FFG and GW! The same goes for any licensed product, though. Obviously this does not prevent certain contradictions to pop up. When an author doesn't ask if something is okay, GW cannot say no to him. Added to that comes the issue of editors who seemingly aren't very versed in the fluff themselves, lest we would see fewer contradictions between novels and the most basic principles of the setting pop up all the time (multilasers, Marine height, Terminator agility, Sororitas purity, etc).
FFG has the advantage of including some former GW writers amongst themselves now, but sadly this too did not prevent certain inconsistencies. These contradictions are likely the result out of missing "team input" as it exists at the GW HQ, or because the people at FFG take some "artistic license" with certain things where they feel it'd be cooler to do it different than in the GW books.
I know of at least one writer who has written stuff for the books and who has said so on the FFG forums. I can link you the post, if you're interested.

Lynata wrote:... and that it's perfectly okay for a penitent and dedicated Sister to get drunk, get laid and play cards out of boredom, because hey, there's nothing to do in a Schola (prayers are boring) and who cares what kind of example she'd make for the next generation of Sororitas?

How do you get that?

The sister in question is semi-retired (i.e. she's getting on in years, so she's been 'promoted to a desk job' - teaching, in this case), meaning that she doesn't have the full array of duties that one would normally expect of a member of the Sororitas. She drinks, but only socially. And there's no indication that she drinks to excess. She plays cards, but so far as we can tell only with the other instructors (who are all old vets themselves). Knowing how to play cards is an indication of her status as a veteran campaigner, as she likely learned how while out on campaign (You want boredom? It's just you and the members of your unit, out in the middle of nowhere, on semi-alert just on the odd chance that the enemy decides to try something today. Playing cards are small and easy to carry, and they help to pass the time, which is why many soldiers learn how to play.). And while we know that she has at least one sexual tryst (I wouldn't be surprised if she's in a relationship with the man in question, though it's not made clear in the book), she's extremely discrete about it. Cain wouldn't have even suspected if he hadn't literally been in the right place at the right time.

Nor would I be overly concerned about the fallen Sisters in that novel. Given what happened, pretty much anyone and everyone who wasn't a psyker or blank would be vulnerable - and I'm not even too sure about the former. I suspect that even the vaunted purity techniques of the Grey Knights wouldn't hold up to what is, in essence, a complete rewriting of one's world-view.


The Sisters that are problematic for me are actually the ones in the prior novel, who basically come across as parodies.

The drinking per se would be okay (depending how it's pulled off), it's just that the combination of everything makes her come off as way too normal. Sisters aren't female Guard. They're on nearly the same indoctrination level as Marines. Perhaps even more so.

All GW books go on about how the Sisters "brook no distractions from their tasks", about how "isolation is part of their puritan lifestyle" and how their daily life is one of "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work".

And yes, all the stuff in quotation marks is directly quoted from studio material. And then some novel comes along and basically portrays one of them like an everyday joe. And not just anyone but a Sister Superior in charge of training the next generation. One should assume that such a character should be especially zealous as to not taint the novices with impure thought.

I know that the Cain books are basically meant to be a parody of the setting, but given how I see this book being mentioned again and again whenever the question of Sororitas chastity comes up, I think that this portrayal was quite damaging to the overall perception of the Sisterhood, robbing it of one of its core aspects - their fanatism.

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."
- Codex: Sisters of Battle, The Schola Progenium

Lynata wrote: it's perfectly okay for a penitent and dedicated Sister to get drunk, get laid and play cards out of boredom, because hey, there's nothing to do in a Schola (prayers are boring) and who cares what kind of example she'd make for the next generation of Sororitas?

That's my kind of battle-nun.

Garters make me so hawt.

Lynata wrote:The drinking per se would be okay (depending how it's pulled off), it's just that the combination of everything makes her come off as way too normal. Sisters aren't female Guard. They're on nearly the same indoctrination level as Marines. Perhaps even more so.

All GW books go on about how the Sisters "brook no distractions from their tasks", about how "isolation is part of their puritan lifestyle" and how their daily life is one of "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work".

To which I repeat -

She's semi-retired (it's not stated, but the clear implication is that pretty much all of the teaching staff are old campaigners who are no longer what one would consider 'active service'), and she's very discreet about it. The group's even shocked when she turns out to be pretty good at cards - they mistakenly thought that Sisters wouldn't know the first thing about card games. So clearly she's still presenting herself in a completely upright fashion. It's only when she's with a private group that she lets her hair down somewhat. It's also worth noting that it takes place with other members of the faculty, who use the opportunity to talk together about what their students are up to. So the drinks and cards also tie into her work as a member of the school's faculty. She's talking shop over drinks and quiet entertainment, which is an old and time-honored tradition.

She's not - so far as we know - violating any rules. She's just employed somewhere other than a convent and thus probably has a little more free time on her hands than would otherwise be the case. As a result, she has the time to engage in activities that she otherwise wouldn't be able to enjoy (and Amberley's footnote implies as much).


And since you bring up marines, there are plenty of chapters that engage in much more... boistrous... activities when not on the battlefield. The Space Wolves come to mind as a prime example...

Lots of Marine Chapters do things other than train for battle in their "downtime". The Space Wolves, as mentioned, are fond of taking something that negates their resistance to toxins so they can go out for a night of boozing. Blood Angels are often found creating works of art, most often paintings or sculptures, and are considered some of the foremost artists in the whole Imperium. I would not be surprised if Ultramarines also did something like that, or turned to civil engineering, city planning, architecture and similar fields, given that they directly control most of the Eastern Fringe.

...and specifically with the Sisters of Battle, I think that the taking of wine probably has some sort of religious significance to them, outside of social situations, so there's probably not a strict ban on its consumption. This would likely allow them to partake of wine or other spirits, in moderation, in other settings. I'd also be surprised if a Sister Famulous was not expected to partake of wine or other drinks when meeting with nobles, important Imperial functionaries, or similar worthies.

Of course, obscura and other drugs are right out, but that's a different matter entirely. The Schola Progenium is a program designed for more than just the Sisterhood. The children of all Imperial war-heroes whose parents are killed in action are taken in by such schools, so they can be trained and inducted into continued service for the Imperium. Even if the schools are gender divided (which seems implausible, given the availability of planets where a Scholam may be found), there's no guarantee that a girl from a given family is going to be able to pass the physical requirements for entrance into the Sisterhood, for whatever reason, and may instead be slated to go into the Administratum or some other function... perhaps even the Commissariat or the Inquisition.

ETA: With regards to the OP... well, it's possible, sure, though you might be better off fielding a single character as an HQ unit or something, rather than having a bunch of rank-and-file C:SOBs. This is a bit more in keeping with established fluff, in that, rather than entire convents turning to the Archenemy, sometimes, a woman in the SOB suddenly experiences a rise in nascent psychic expression. This is a death-sentence in the Sisterhood, who view their now-psychic Sister as a witch. Most of them die soon after their gifts are discovered, alone and in pain. Some few are whisked away by Radical Inquisitors who have use for unsanctioned psykers. Others may be set free by the actions of Chaos... such as the convent being already in a warzone, and is overrun by the forces of Chaos, who take her captive as their Sorcerers sense some special gift about her (or because their Daemonic patron tells them to) or perhaps the Night Lords receive a prophetic vision of this fallen Sister, and mount an operation to obtain her for their own purposes, and through their Rites of Excruciation, turn her to their cause. You could then use this Sister of Battle as a "counts as" Chaos Sorcerer or similarly-gifted HQ unit.

Eumerin wrote:She's semi-retired

I'm not sure you can actually "retire" as a SoB. Their abbesses are ancient. If one gets too old for one duty, she gets moved to another - and if old granny can do nothing more than ranting at young novices being too loud in the librarium, then she's going to do that. Back in medieval times, nuns also didn't just "quit convent life" when they turned 50 or whatever.
That said, the Adepta Sororitas actually do have access to Juvenat treatments, and given that people always describe her as flirting with the characters, it didn't really make her sound that old.

But let's suppose they do retire (I could actually imagine some sort of Ministorum-run facility where retired clergy and Sisters may live out the rest of their lives). This isn't the problem. That the character is breaking half of what the very concept of the Sororitas stands for is, and the author pandering to the fantasies of the male readers by turning the Sisters from aloof crusaders into a bunch of sunday school chicks.

The Cain novels don't respect SoB Codex canon, it's as simple as that. Both regarding SoB lifestyle and (relative) incorruptability as well as how a Schola is actually run. I suppose Mitchell/Stewart simply didn't read up on it. No biggie, lots of BL writers make mistakes like that. Even Abnett gets stuff wrong.

Still, it currently is a big problem this faction has to fight with, because unlike with most Marine or Guard novels such mistakes do not get identified as such and thus "mitigated" in public perception due to a lack of common knowledge regarding the SoB canon that GW has put out. I'm going to assume that many people don't read their Codices and Sororitas canon in general is few and far between. The only thing people read about them is in novels. Yet next to no-one writes books about them, they just seem to be a popular choice for when an author needs incompetent cannonfodder, power-armoured Chaos traitors and/or sexy romance interests. You'll forgive a certain bitterness on my part regarding this treatment.

Eumerin wrote:And since you bring up marines, there are plenty of chapters that engage in much more... boistrous... activities when not on the battlefield. The Space Wolves come to mind as a prime example...

Yeah I remembered that after posting, which is why I edited the "perhaps even more so" in.

I was referring to the hypno-indoctrination and the monastic lifestyle (see the "daily schedule" contained in the back of the 3E Marine Codex) that should be a defining aspect of most Marine Chapters. Of course the SW stand apart, but they're pretty much the big special snowflake in nearly everything that is supposed to describe the Astartes.

Psienesis wrote:The Schola Progenium is a program designed for more than just the Sisterhood. The children of all Imperial war-heroes whose parents are killed in action are taken in by such schools, so they can be trained and inducted into continued service for the Imperium. Even if the schools are gender divided (which seems implausible, given the availability of planets where a Scholam may be found), there's no guarantee that a girl from a given family is going to be able to pass the physical requirements for entrance into the Sisterhood, for whatever reason, and may instead be slated to go into the Administratum or some other function... perhaps even the Commissariat or the Inquisition.

Of course. In fact, the vast majority of female progena ends up there rather than in the ranks of the Sisterhood. What does that change, though?

And why is the division between genders implausible? All it takes is a high wall, and considering what Schola training is supposed to achieve, keeping both genders from interacting with each other seems way more plausible than the alternative. I always thought the cited part about purity is very important (which is why it also applies to the teachers, as the Codex notes further).

Lynata wrote:

Goddard wrote:In a Ciaphas Cain book, a pair of sisters fought for the dark side.

Those books also want to make you believe that the Schola Progenium isn't gender-divided and that it's perfectly okay for a penitent and dedicated Sister to get drunk, get laid and play cards out of boredom, because hey, there's nothing to do in a Schola (prayers are boring) and who cares what kind of example she'd make for the next generation of Sororitas?

You can ignore any bit of fluff you want, that doesn't change anything.

It's his army, he can do whatever he wants with it. He asked if there has been any official canon indicating that a SoB fell, or succumbed, to Chaos influece, and I cited it.

Frankly listening to the internet (in its infinite pervertedness), the idea of Chaos-turned Sisters, especially those turning to Slaanesh (how droll) is so boring and overdone you get more uniqueness out of having a loyalist sisters force.


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Goddard wrote:It's his army, he can do whatever he wants with it.

This is true.

But I think you're missing the point-- if he is looking for approval, he does not innately deserve any for his ideas, and he certainly will never get any from me for this particular one. He can do whatever he wants with his army, but I also am WELL within my rights to disapprove. Just as you could disapprove if someone painted their marine models bright purple with pink trim and white weapons, with stars and pony symbols on their shoulderpads, and then went around saying they're Ultramarines led by a Marneus Calgar who's been modified to have a tremendous head of bright pink hair.

Melissia wrote:Frankly listening to the internet (in its infinite pervertedness), the idea of Chaos-turned Sisters, especially those turning to Slaanesh (how droll) is so boring and overdone you get more uniqueness out of having a loyalist sisters force.


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Goddard wrote:It's his army, he can do whatever he wants with it.

This is true.

But I think you're missing the point-- if he is looking for approval, he does not innately deserve any for his ideas, and he certainly will never get any from me for this particular one. He can do whatever he wants with his army, but I also am WELL within my rights to disapprove. Just as you could disapprove if someone painted their marine models bright purple with pink trim and white weapons, with stars and pony symbols on their shoulderpads, and then went around saying they're Ultramarines led by a Marneus Calgar who's been modified to have a tremendous head of bright pink hair.

I understand what you're getting at. Because he has the freedom to do what he wants, does not entitle him to be immune from critisizing.

Out of curiosity, do you disagree that Black Library books count as canon?

Having Sister corrupted by chaos is fine, as in Daemonifuge. Having sisters that willingly turned to Chaos, at least a whole army of them, is maybe not so cool.

I was going to mention Mirael, but Lynata beat me to it.

On the fluff itself, it's a bit of a tricky one. Personally, I would like it if the Black Library and the Studio material were separate. The codex stuff has generally been a lot more consistent than the Black Library stuff.
In the Heresy series Lokens hair has been blonde and dark, the Anatheme has been grey and gold. The issue is each author has their different idea and style and it's a case of too many cooks sometimes.

But the stance is that all fluff is fluff, it's a lazy approach to it maybe, but it's because it's told from different perspectives, times and adjusted to suit.

Boob themed Sororitas are very high on my list of the lamest, fluff contradicting army ideas suggested about once per month, usually by some teen wanting to do something naughty. The others on the list are Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Xenos (mostly Eldar and tau), female Space Marines, and an army painted PINK (muahahaha).

Goddard wrote:You can ignore any bit of fluff you want, that doesn't change anything.

Ah, but I'm not ignoring fluff, I'm ignoring novels that ignore GW canon.

Goddard wrote:It's his army, he can do whatever he wants with it. He asked if there has been any official canon indicating that a SoB fell, or succumbed, to Chaos influece, and I cited it.

Of course! I was merely pointing out how it conflicts with GW's own stance on the subject. Note that I myself have mentioned that some licensed products are breaking the rule. I didn't want to "destroy" the comment (sorry if it came off sounding that way!), perhaps I'm a bit hypersensitive as soon as someone mentions the Cain books in combination with SoB.

Anyways, it's OP's decision on if he wants to stick with GW canon or take the Black Library approach. I just think the differences should be pointed out, before he sees his army style "squatted" by GW not caring about what some novel author wrote.

For example, the 3E WH 'dex basically invalidates that part of Daemonifuge with this "only one Sister" line, for example (it was released later). Interestingly, Ephrael herself seems to be canon, for there has both been a GW article on the website as well as an official miniature with her own rules (which is why we know that an exiled Sister cannot use Acts of Faith). This is in line with what Gav Thorpe said about GW "cherrypicking" cool stuff from the novels (such as the existence of Gaunt's Ghosts) and simply ignoring things they don't like (Multilaser Marines ).

Pilau Rice wrote:On the fluff itself, it's a bit of a tricky one. Personally, I would like it if the Black Library and the Studio material were separate. [...] In the Heresy series Lokens hair has been blonde and dark, the Anatheme has been grey and gold. The issue is each author has their different idea and style and it's a case of too many cooks sometimes.

Aye - that actually seems to be how GW sees it, too, and I've since come to see this as a blessing.

"In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library's main objective was to “tell good stories”. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds."
- Source

Kroothawk wrote:Boob themed Sororitas

Wat

In other words, "we're too lazy to do it and the authors don't like to read each other's drivel any more than we do".

Lynata wrote:
For example, the 3E WH 'dex basically invalidates that part of Daemonifuge with this "only one Sister" line, for example (it was released later).

I dunno, it depends on how I guess, Miriael maybe willingly went over the Slaanesh whereas the sisters in Daemonufuge were gradually corrupted whilst they were studying the Keeper of Secrets.

I've not read the reference to the Chaos sisters in Ciaphas Cain so can't really comment, but maybe the same kind of corruption occurred?

There were no "Chaos Sisters" in Ciaphas Cain. There were merely those who were being directly mind controlled. They didn't worship Chaos-- they were dominated by psychic powers, something that particular enemy was able to do to entire planets at a time so long as he was able to make direct eye contact.

Melissia wrote:There were no "Chaos Sisters" in Ciaphas Cain. There were merely those who were being directly mind controlled. They didn't worship Chaos-- they were dominated by psychic powers, something that particular enemy was able to do to entire planets at a time so long as he was able to make direct eye contact.

Well there you go - Psychic domination.

Omegus wrote:In other words, "we're too lazy to do it and the authors don't like to read each other's drivel any more than we do".

More like "The authors don't like to have to fact check every single thing, especially if it might get in the way of them writing a fun story whilst being paid peanuts."

That was the least well written of the various Cain books, so meh. Still not that bad, but there's just so many annoying, grating things about it that make me not want to put it with the other Cain books...

Pilau Rice wrote:I dunno, it depends on how I guess, Miriael maybe willingly went over the Slaanesh whereas the sisters in Daemonufuge were gradually corrupted whilst they were studying the Keeper of Secrets.

Miriael was captured by the Emperor's Children, she didn't just "switch sides" because she wanted to. Corruption is the only explanation for how one of the Order's best (according to her Canoness, and Miriael was a Sister Superior) could forsake everything she once held dear. Miriael Sabathiel's corruption is one of Chaos' greatest achievements (considering that this was considered impossible up until she showed up as a traitor), which is probably why she became a Champion of Slaanesh right away.

Pilau Rice wrote:Well there you go - Psychic domination.

Isn't that just as bad, considering that the SoB have a special rule against psyker powers?

Still, thanks for clarifying. I really don't intend to buy that stuff, but it's good to know details like these for threads like these.

Lynata wrote:Isn't that just as bad.

Is taking a gun and killing someone as bad as having someone put the gun in your hand while you are unconscious from drugs they injected into your unwilling body and having them pull your finger so you pull the trigger?

I would be happy with the idea of Chaos Sisters if only people weren't so set on making them Slaanesh worshippers. To my mind, Sisters of Battle are much more likely to turn to Khorne due to their marshal upbringing and background than Slaanesh. Seems to me some people only pick slaanesh for the idea of Chaos Sisters because the idea of pervert nuns is hawt (hurr hurr).

Like this? Check out the thread, it's quite good stuff

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/336665.page

That image is so horrendously stupid and wrong in so many ways >.<

No offense meant to the artist, but geeze do I hate that picture and I only just saw it now.

It's clearly because the chainaxe is too small.

They can't worship Khorne with chainaxes that small!

How do those shoulder pads stay up?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I would be happy with the idea of Chaos Sisters if only people weren't so set on making them Slaanesh worshippers. To my mind, Sisters of Battle are much more likely to turn to Khorne due to their marshal upbringing and background than Slaanesh. Seems to me some people only pick slaanesh for the idea of Chaos Sisters because the idea of pervert nuns is hawt (hurr hurr).

Well, Slaanesh remains the one and only Chaos God to which both GW's own books as well as the novels let Sisters fall to.

And I actually think it makes sense. Yes, it's cliché, and I even agree that it might originate in the "pervert nun" stuff, but at the end of the day the Sisters are confined to an environment that suppresses all those things that a happy, normal life would offer. Slaanesh is simply the other extreme, so when a Sister gets exposed to certain stimuli I can perfectly see her swing over all the way once her mental shield is shattered.

Or another approach. Sisters Repentia, or corporeal mortification in general. All it takes is someone who starts to enjoy whipping little girls and Slaanesh may have a tiny opening to exploit. I realize the SM approach may be perceived as another cliché, but the aspect simply exists as part of this faction's style. And hey, this stuff happens in real life convents as well (though these days people can at least sue the Church ).

Plain violence, though? That's something they get to experience every few weeks or months - and they don't really seem to enjoy it, rather taking it as a holy duty and part of their service.

In the end, I do agree that one could come up with reasons for every Chaos God to be the one a fallen Sister turns to - but I hold that Slaanesh is most reasonable, so I'm not surprised by the one studio canon example we have doing just that.

Lynata wrote:I hold that Slaanesh is most reasonable

Slaanesh is the one Sisters, if any were to actually fall, that would be LEAST likely. They do no live lives of excess or hedonism in the first place, quite the opposite in fact.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:I hold that Slaanesh is most reasonable

Slaanesh is the one Sisters, if any were to actually fall, that would be LEAST likely. They do no live lives of excess or hedonism in the first place, quite the opposite in fact.

This is the thing, for me. I get what Lynata's saying, but most who fall to Chaos do so by adhering to their nature rather than being tempted away from it. The militant fall to Khorne, the devious fall to Tzeentch, the despairing fall to Nurgle, and the decadent fall to Slaanesh.

Melissia wrote:Slaanesh is the one Sisters, if any were to actually fall, that would be LEAST likely. They do no live lives of excess or hedonism in the first place, quite the opposite in fact.

Exactly - that's the very reason for I think Slaanesh would apply best.

In terms of pleasure, regardless of whether it stems from good food, comfy chairs or carnal activities, the Sisters do not "immunize" by limited exposure (like the normal Imperial population), they avoid entirely. I can see this becoming a weakness.

"Hey, this actually feels good!"

I mean, you'd assume that modern day clergly don't lead lives of excess or hedonism as well (they do take vows), and still you see scandals popping up all over the world.

Due to their monastic lifestyle, the Sisters have a remarkable resistance against the influence of Chaos (which is why only one traitor is known, and why they don't fall due to "everyday business") - but where this nigh-unshatterable resistance IS shattered, this would be the first thing I could see one realizing.

Of course it could also simply be because it were the Emperor's Children that captured Miriael and they are aligned to Slaanesh themselves, so would naturally be inclined to break her in a "fitting" way. I'm not exactly saying that Miriael couldn't have just as well turned to Khorne if she were captured by, say, the World Eaters. I'm just not surprised by her ending up like she did, given the circumstance.

Lynata wrote:Miriael was captured by the Emperor's Children, she didn't just "switch sides" because she wanted to. Corruption is the only explanation for how one of the Order's best (according to her Canoness, and Miriael was a Sister Superior) could forsake everything she once held dear. Miriael Sabathiel's corruption is one of Chaos' greatest achievements (considering that this was considered impossible up until she showed up as a traitor), which is probably why she became a Champion of Slaanesh right away.

I would argue that corruption isn't something new to chaos, any Tom and Dick with a bit of oratory skill could persuade someone to join Chaos. Do we know how the dealio with the Emperors Children went down? Maybe Mirael was shown a great big Avon catalog and thought, hey screw this I like make - up, i wanna be a purtty girl, and jumped ship? I think it would be more of an achievement to get one of the most dedicated warriors of the Emperor to join the dark side ... willingly.

That's just me though.

It's not unheard of for the high and mighty to turn their back on the ideals that they hold dear, look at the heresy

Pilau Rice wrote:It's not unheard of for the high and mighty to turn their back on the ideals that they hold dear, look at the heresy

But that was corruption as well.

Also, does not corruption automatically imply that the subject switches sides willingly? Corruption isn't forcing someone to become a traitor, it's influencing them in a way that makes them end up thinking differently.

In a way, this also includes the distinct possibility of the Emperor's Children showing Miriael a big Avon catalogue.

Sisters aren't clergy. Ecclesiarchal clergymen do not live in anywhere REMOTELY the same lifestyle as Sisters do, nor do any modern clergymen.

Sisters live a life of supreme discipline and self-control. Sisters showing faults such as hedonism are trained out of it early on, and irredeemable cases are sent to the Repentia to earn their redemption.

Lynata wrote:But that was corruption as well.

Not all were corrupted, it was down to choice. Keep following the Emperor or join Horus. By the end, yeah they had been corrupted and it's quite apparent.

My point is that the corruption takes away your choice in the matter, it's a slow progressive thing that creeps up on you and you don't know wants gone on until it's to late. I like the idea that the Emperors Children said, hey we have this Avon catalogue and Cookies whereas your Emperor has Prayer pamphlets and Broccoli. Mirael took a brief moment to think on it and decided Cookies.

But I see what you are saying though, I suppose it's all one and the same thing when it comes down to it.

As I recall, the Sisters don't swear any vow of chastity - at least, not according to Ciaphas Cain, anyway. As I stated, warriors fall to Khorne, and thus Sisters probably would feel most at home there.


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Melissia wrote:That image is so horrendously stupid and wrong in so many ways >.<

No offense meant to the artist, but geeze do I hate that picture and I only just saw it now.

Boobs for the Blood God!
Wait, that makes no sense at all whatsoever. How does nakedness make you a better fighter?

Melissia wrote:Slaanesh is the one Sisters, if any were to actually fall, that would be LEAST likely. They do no live lives of excess or hedonism in the first place, quite the opposite in fact.

I respectfully disagree. I think Tzeentch would be the least likely. Psykers. Mutation. Just as Planned. These are the things that Sororitas stand against from a religious and devotional perspective. They use the denial of vice to instill discipline and control over themselves, but only so that they can better burn the Witch, kill the Heretic, and purge the Mutant. For Slaanesh to corrupt a Sister is an accomplishment worthy of bragging rights. For Tzeentch to corrupt a Sister is a feat akin to a certain Spawn of Ward carving his name in a Primarch's heart... ie: fluff-breaking by it's very nature.

Nurgle would be second least likely. Plagues and illness usually get the flamer treatment, and there's no doubt an infected Sororitas would give herself a promethium bath if she started developing spores, sores, and suppurations (Is that last one really a word? Probably not, but alliteration is kewl).

Khorne is not as unlikely as you might think. Lots of fighting for prolonged periods, with no time for proper devotional services to renew faith in the Emperor or provide psychological stability... some Sisters might find that to survive the Hell of grimdark war, they must become akin to demons...

Slaanesh is most likely. While the Sisters reject vice and pleasure, it is only as a means to an end, not as an end of itself. And Slaanesh isn't just the Chaos God of Porn (most critics of Slaanesh, and even some Slaaneshi players seem to forget this). He is the master of sensation and pleasure. Anything you enjoy physically or mentally can make you weak to his influence. Maybe the Repentia start to enjoy those minor wounds they pick up during a battle. It shows their devotion to their redemption! Every cut, burn, and laceration is joyfully recieved because it means they are serious about atoning for their sins and rejoining the Emperor's light! Eventually, the Sister starts to enjoy the injuries themselves, and not what they represent. Pretty soon, she's in her cell cutting herself... and one of the self-inflicted wounds has an awfully familiar shape to it...

And why single out Repentia? It's not just about cutting or BDSM. A regular Sister who gets stuck in a warzone such as the one described for Khorne might turn to Slaanesh, if she starts to enjoy killing. But wait, don't Khornites enjoy killing? Yes, but with them it's more of a "they LIVE to kill" thing, with a SLaaneshi devotee it's more of a "they LOVE to kill". If a Sister becomes very, very good at her job, taking pride in her work, and savoring the screams of the burning sinners... savoring to the point where she needs to change her power armor at an alarming rate... how long before she starts coming up with more and more creative ways to purge the Unclean?

So yeah, I say Slaanesh is the most likely. The fact that, officially, he's only scored one (while the others have scored a big fat zero) speaks volumes to the loyalty of the Sororitas.

As far as Slaanesh armies go (and Slaanesh Sisters go) the problem most people have with them is that players seem to forget it's "sex, drugs, and rock and roll" not just "sex". Slaanesh armies don't have to be all about the nipples. Although it is one of their defining features.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Wait, that makes no sense at all whatsoever. How does nakedness make you a better fighter?

"Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, as long as it flows."

Admittedly, getting stabbed and shot to death is going to produce a lower net of blood for old Skully, but hey-ho.

squidhills wrote:Slaanesh is most likely.

Most assuredly not. Sisters do no just reject pleasure or some other nonsense, they embrace humility and reject excess. Their very PURPOSE is tied in to this, as one of the reasons they were allowed to exist as the Ecclesiarchy's military arm is because they are to regulate the church to prevent this from happening to the church itself.

What you described looks more like a teenaged sexual power fantasy than anything regarding the Sisters fluff. Repentia don't "live to kill", they live to DIE. The entire purpose behind being a Repentia is the knowledge that they will die in battle and redeem themselves through the glory of death in the Emperor's service.

htj wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Wait, that makes no sense at all whatsoever. How does nakedness make you a better fighter?

"Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, as long as it flows."

Admittedly, getting stabbed and shot to death is going to produce a lower net of blood for old Skully, but hey-ho.

True, true, but there also lies the problem that, if the sisters were going to fight naked (a la Celt or Norse Berzerker style) they would fight naked. And trust me, it would be anything but pretty. These costumes are clearly picked for sex appeal, rather than any disregard for danger.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

htj wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Wait, that makes no sense at all whatsoever. How does nakedness make you a better fighter?

"Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, as long as it flows."

Admittedly, getting stabbed and shot to death is going to produce a lower net of blood for old Skully, but hey-ho.

True, true, but there also lies the problem that, if the sisters were going to fight naked (a la Celt or Norse Berzerker style) they would fight naked. And trust me, it would be anything but pretty. These costumes are clearly picked for sex appeal, rather than any disregard for danger.

Herein lies the problem I have with roughly 90% of female miniatures. It's one of the reasons I play Sisters, their armour doesn't bear their midriff and they haven't got their baps out. Quite refreshingly, they look like women in armour who can fight. Er, Sisters Repentia notwithstanding.

Sisters armor STILL bears the marks of oversexualization (they basically wear their underwear outside their armor, IE corsets and bras/boobcups), but that's a topic for another topic, as it were.

Melissia wrote:Sisters armor STILL bears the marks of oversexualization (they basically wear their underwear outside their armor, IE corsets and bras/boobcups), but that's a topic for another topic, as it were.

Yes indeed, but it's better than most. But you're right, let's not digress.

Melissia wrote:Sisters do no just reject pleasure or some other nonsense, they embrace humility and reject excess.

That's the thing - they don't just avoid excess, they avoid it entirely. Which is what makes them so strong and nigh-incorruptable, but (imho) also opens up the first gap in their defence once they actually do reach the breaking point.

As we can see from Codex material on the case of Miriael Sabathiel, a Sister's everyday duty is obviously not sufficient to make her fall to ANY Chaos god. Whatever happened to Miriael, the Emperor's Children did it. And they belong to Slaanesh. Whilst something similar may have pushed Miriael to any other Chaos god were she just captured by a different band of CSM, this one canon example does give Slaanesh a head start and should not be discarded just because it fits into some cliché, for so do lots of other things in 40k.

And one could say that there is one sensation the Sisters do experience in excess: Pain.

Melissia wrote:Their very PURPOSE is tied in to this, as one of the reasons they were allowed to exist as the Ecclesiarchy's military arm is because they are to regulate the church to prevent this from happening to the church itself.

Well, to be fair, they don't police sexual activities but deviance from the Creed and a breach of whatever rules the Ecclesiarchy imposes on their clergy or itself (such as some Apostate Cardinal violating the Decree Passive).

Lynata wrote:And one could say that there is one sensation the Sisters do experience in excess: Pain.

How so? Do you mean through battle?

htj wrote:How so? Do you mean through battle?

Self-mortification in their convents. Be it through voluntary whipping, penance or rituals. Shows up in all canon material.

"Prayer cleanses the soul, but pain cleanses the body."
- Confessor Ganinimus

I believe one bit of fluff even described a Sister Superior writing with a barbed pen because it hurts, though I can't recall the exact source. It was some ministory-box like the ones you often see in the Codices.

Would likely apply to the Repentia more than to a regular Sister. I do not think it inconceivable that they get subjected to ritual torture, both to cleanse their souls as well as a means to "break" them battle-ready before a dominatrix dual-wielding powered electricity cables drives them into martyrdom.

They don't feel pain for the sake of pain. That's the thing about Slaanesh-- his servants do things simply for the sake of doing something new and exciting.

Lynata wrote:I believe one bit of fluff even described a Sister Superior writing with a barbed pen because it hurts, though I can't recall the exact source. It was some ministory-box like the ones you often see in the Codices.

I recall this piece of fluff. In fact, the Sister Superior corrected the Imperial orderly chap when he saw her use it. She specifically rejected the 'whips on naked flesh and cold stone floors' that he assumed about the Sisters and explained that the pain was barbed to remind her that information was extremely powerful, and should only be passed on when absolutely necessary.

Melissia wrote:They don't feel pain for the sake of pain.

Quite right. But they do feel it. Masochism exists in the real world just as it does in 40k.

Officially, the Sisterhood likely wouldn't condone it for what it is (and I believe their methods of internal control are quite effective), but this does not exclude the possibility of some of them feeling that way. The ones affected may simply explain it away as "religious ecstasy", and their leaders can do pretty much what they want (the extreme sense of loyalty and obedience within the Sororitas is a strength as well as another weakness, depending on the circumstance).

That's also how that RL lesbian abbess explained her feelings when she slept with another Sister, after all.

htj: Thanks! Do you recall which book it was in? I wanted to read up on it for a long time, as the last time I saw it was even before I started collecting SoB or getting this interested in their fluff.

iproxtaco wrote:

Oh man, once every month, "Blood for the Blood God" takes on an entirely different meaning.

Lynata wrote:Quite right. But they do feel it. Masochism exists in the real world just as it does in 40k.

Masochism is a flaw which would likely put a Repentia on a suicide mission to prevent corruption in the first place.

The leaders are the ones least likely to turn, themselves. They've seen true miracles by that point, learned true evidence of the Emperor's divinity, etc.

All of this still stinks of a perverted teenaged sexual fantasy.

Melissia wrote:What you described looks more like a teenaged sexual power fantasy than anything regarding the Sisters fluff. Repentia don't "live to kill", they live to DIE. The entire purpose behind being a Repentia is the knowledge that they will die in battle and redeem themselves through the glory of death in the Emperor's service.

Actually, please read my post again. I did not say Repentia "Live to kill". I said a Khornate worshipper lives to kill, and that a Slaanesh worshipper brought to him via violence might "Love to kill". I also did not describe a teenaged sexual power fantasy, I described how Slaanesh seduces and corrupts people according to his/her fluff. If you have a problem with that, it's less to do with what I wrote and more to do with a personal dislike you have for Slaanesh.

squidhills wrote:

Melissia wrote:What you described looks more like a teenaged sexual power fantasy than anything regarding the Sisters fluff. Repentia don't "live to kill", they live to DIE. The entire purpose behind being a Repentia is the knowledge that they will die in battle and redeem themselves through the glory of death in the Emperor's service.

Actually, please read my post again. I did not say Repentia "Live to kill". I said a Khornate worshipper lives to kill, and that a Slaanesh worshipper brought to him via violence might "Love to kill". I also did not describe a teenaged sexual power fantasy, I described how Slaanesh seduces and corrupts people according to his/her fluff. If you have a problem with that, it's less to do with what I wrote and more to do with a personal dislike you have for Slaanesh.

Slaanesh is the prince of EXCESS, not of sex. Sex is merely one tool through which excess is accomplished, the sex is not important. Someone having sex is not feeding Slaanesh. Somene enjoying pain is not feeding Slaanesh. Nor are they liable to TURN to Slaanesh. It is not pleasure that matters, it is the EXCESS.

Melissia wrote:Masochism is a flaw which would likely put a Repentia on a suicide mission to prevent corruption in the first place.

Perhaps. Or perhaps not.

Pain is promoted by the Ecclesiarchy as a means of purifying one's soul as well as sharing in the Emperor's sacrifice. Embracing that with open arms may just as well be met with approval. It would simply not be interpreted as a means of receiving pleasure, but mistaken as great devotion. That's just how fanatism works.

Melissia wrote:The leaders are the ones least likely to turn, themselves. They've seen true miracles by that point, learned true evidence of the Emperor's divinity, etc.

Any Sororitas is unlikely to turn. Either way, Miriael was a Veteran Sister Superior - the "officers" who help a Canoness run the Order.

Melissia wrote:All of this still stinks of a perverted teenaged sexual fantasy.

Most things about Slaanesh do. Doesn't mean they don't have a point, though. That's what makes corruption by Slaanesh seem so much more realistic - because our modern day society already reflects much of it.

Generally, I like to look for logical reasons for why something in this fictional setting is like it is rather than denouncing it, for in the end, I still have to accept it as canon. In Miriael's case I think it is pretty easy to find an explanation, though.

Regards to that fluff, Lynata, I read it in WD when they released the first SoB models. I can't recall if it was reprinted in the 2nd ed. Codex, though. I'll see if I can track down the issue number for you.

Lynata: I repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:Slaanesh is the prince of EXCESS, not of sex. Sex is merely one tool through which excess is accomplished, the sex is not important. Someone having sex is not feeding Slaanesh. Somene enjoying pain is not feeding Slaanesh. Nor are they liable to TURN to Slaanesh. It is not pleasure that matters, it is the EXCESS.

The sole and ONLY reason people want Sisters to turn to Slaanesh over all other Chaos Gods has nothing to do with logic. At least not logic coming from an organ above the neck.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Quite right. But they do feel it. Masochism exists in the real world just as it does in 40k.

Masochism is a flaw which would likely put a Repentia on a suicide mission to prevent corruption in the first place.

The leaders are the ones least likely to turn, themselves. They've seen true miracles by that point, learned true evidence of the Emperor's divinity, etc.

All of this still stinks of a perverted teenaged sexual fantasy.

PMSL..... Ok ok as op I belive its my turn lol, the topic started because my gf (shes 22) is into the gothic side of 40k aka spikes, dark colours, and also was thinking of a female based army, and as sisters look gothy (for lack of a better word) would be a perfect start.

My intention with this post was to guage peoples reaction to an actual sisters army painted dark and goth colours and adorned with chaos items and such, not to start a roit over a back story.

The main reason I asked I because neither of us have read any sisters fluff, so im happy with an "its possible" for sob to turn to chaos but on the argument thats going on here im not getting into lmao.

Cheers guys.

dreadanant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Quite right. But they do feel it. Masochism exists in the real world just as it does in 40k.

Masochism is a flaw which would likely put a Repentia on a suicide mission to prevent corruption in the first place.

The leaders are the ones least likely to turn, themselves. They've seen true miracles by that point, learned true evidence of the Emperor's divinity, etc.

All of this still stinks of a perverted teenaged sexual fantasy.

PMSL..... Ok ok as op I belive its my turn lol, the topic started because my gf (shes 22) is into the gothic side of 40k aka spikes, dark colours, and also was thinking of a female based army, and as sisters look gothy (for lack of a better word) would be a perfect start.

My intention with this post was to guage peoples reaction to an actual sisters army painted dark and goth colours and adorned with chaos items and such, not to start a roit over a back story.

The main reason I asked I because neither of us have read any sisters fluff, so im happy with an "its possible" for sob to turn to chaos but on the argument thats going on here im not getting into lmao.

Cheers guys.

It's more like "It's possible but very unlikely"

It's also theoretically psosible to have Orks outfitted in Space Marine power armor, but that's similarly unlikely.


But far, FAR more awesome.

Meh itl do lol
And melissa orks look do they not lol.

Melissia wrote:The sole and ONLY reason people want Sisters to turn to Slaanesh over all other Chaos Gods has nothing to do with logic. At least not logic coming from an organ above the neck.

Sadly true. Chaos Sisters are going to ever be suggested, but it's always, always Slaanesh, and it's always just an excuse to sex-up some miniatures. Well, nearly always, looks like it might be different in this case. But it gets old really fast.

@dreadanant: Aren't Sister gothicy enough without being Chaos? They tend to be in dark colours either way. And they'll attract less nerd rage from people like me.

Melissia wrote:Slaanesh is the prince of EXCESS, not of sex. Sex is merely one tool through which excess is accomplished, the sex is not important. Someone having sex is not feeding Slaanesh. Somene enjoying pain is not feeding Slaanesh. Nor are they liable to TURN to Slaanesh. It is not pleasure that matters, it is the EXCESS.

Slaanesh is called "The Prince of Pleasure"... Pleasure does not specifically mention excess. In fact, I am not familliar with a title for Slaanesh that mentions "excess", but I could be overlooking one.

Pleasure is... well, pleasure. If you enjoy something, then it can serve as a weakness for Slaanesh to exploit. If someone enjoys inflicting pain on themselves, well... If someone enjoys inflicting pain on other people, well... If they enjoy killing... etc, etc, etc.

It's not strictly about sex, and I made that point twice now, already. A lot of Slaanesh players do focus solely on the sexual aspect of Slaanesh, but that's due to their own level of maturity (or immaturity) and the fact that Slaanesh's own damn fluff mentions sex so much. Yes, GW are trying to downplay it with the latest batch of Codexes and models (fugly Daemonettes, anyone?) but you can't erase 20+ years of fluff that reads a little too much like "Porn for the Porn God!" in one edition.

Now let me turn this on its head for a moment. You reject my assertion that Slaanesh would be most likely to corrupt a Sister. Fine. Please offer a hypothesis as to why Nurgle or Tzeentch would be more likely than Slaanesh to successfully corrupt a Sororitas. I'm not trying to be petty or troll you. I am honestly interested in what reasons you have to make the statements that you have made thus far.

Thats not the case, she seen my csm army but doesmnt like the look of the basic csm pa so I sugested the already gothy sob and thats where the stems. Theres not gunna be any boobs hanging out or any thing geez lol people need to chill.
+ 1 squidhills

squidhills wrote:

Melissia wrote:Slaanesh is the prince of EXCESS, not of sex. Sex is merely one tool through which excess is accomplished, the sex is not important. Someone having sex is not feeding Slaanesh. Somene enjoying pain is not feeding Slaanesh. Nor are they liable to TURN to Slaanesh. It is not pleasure that matters, it is the EXCESS.

Slaanesh is called "The Prince of Pleasure"... Pleasure does not specifically mention excess. In fact, I am not familliar with a title for Slaanesh that mentions "excess", but I could be overlooking one.

Pleasure is... well, pleasure. If you enjoy something, then it can serve as a weakness for Slaanesh to exploit. If someone enjoys inflicting pain on themselves, well... If someone enjoys inflicting pain on other people, well... If they enjoy killing... etc, etc, etc.

It's not strictly about sex, and I made that point twice now, already. A lot of Slaanesh players do focus solely on the sexual aspect of Slaanesh, but that's due to their own level of maturity (or immaturity) and the fact that Slaanesh's own damn fluff mentions sex so much. Yes, GW are trying to downplay it with the latest batch of Codexes and models (fugly Daemonettes, anyone?) but you can't erase 20+ years of fluff that reads a little too much like "Porn for the Porn God!" in one edition.

Now let me turn this on its head for a moment. You reject my assertion that Slaanesh would be most likely to corrupt a Sister. Fine. Please offer a hypothesis as to why Nurgle or Tzeentch would be more likely than Slaanesh to successfully corrupt a Sororitas. I'm not trying to be petty or troll you. I am honestly interested in what reasons you have to make the statements that you have made thus far.

Slannesh is specifically the god of excess. Sex is the most common aspect but it can be anything...
Music, food, pain, making things...

Melissia wrote:The sole and ONLY reason people want Sisters to turn to Slaanesh over all other Chaos Gods has nothing to do with logic. At least not logic coming from an organ above the neck.

Of course this will be the most popular reason. Maybe even the only one - there's no way to be certain on this. But we are not discussing player motivations. The in-universe facts are as GW has spelled them out, and they can be explained using real life logic.

Nobody demands that everyone has to like it.

dreadanant wrote:Thats not the case, she seen my csm army but doesmnt like the look of the basic csm pa so I sugested the already gothy sob and thats where the stems. Theres not gunna be any boobs hanging out or any thing geez lol people need to chill.
+ 1 squidhills

It's not the boobs people are annoyed about. It's the fluff...
I don't know why they have to be Chaos though since SOB are already pretty damn grimdark...

purplefood wrote:

dreadanant wrote:Thats not the case, she seen my csm army but doesmnt like the look of the basic csm pa so I sugested the already gothy sob and thats where the stems. Theres not gunna be any boobs hanging out or any thing geez lol people need to chill.
+ 1 squidhills

It's not the boobs people are annoyed about. It's the fluff...
I don't know why they have to be Chaos though since SOB are already pretty damn grimdark...

Yes, this too. It's meant to be extremely rare for even a single Sister to succumb to Chaos. An entire army of them is like fingernails on a chalkboard for fans of this particular part of their background. Which is most SoB players.

purplefood wrote:I don't know why they have to be Chaos though since SOB are already pretty damn grimdark...

That's true.

Nothing wrong with a Slaaneshi SoB having a boob hanging out (as someone else has pointed out, it would be "slaanesh-y") - but there shouldn't be a perceived need to have an SoB army go Chaos in the first place. And I agree that an entire army sounds a bit overkill, from a fluff PoV (the best Chaos Sister conversion I've seen so far was a single mini in a normal CSM HQ).

Perhaps dreadanant could show her some of the normal SoB fluff and see if she likes the Sisters as they are? Then both of you have all the more reason to fight each other's armies.

squidhills wrote:Now let me turn this on its head for a moment. You reject my assertion that Slaanesh would be most likely to corrupt a Sister. Fine. Please offer a hypothesis as to why Nurgle or Tzeentch would be more likely than Slaanesh to successfully corrupt a Sororitas. I'm not trying to be petty or troll you. I am honestly interested in what reasons you have to make the statements that you have made thus far.

Tzeentch instills hope and a desire to change the system because it is harming the faithful, because it is inefficient, because it is losing a war, etc. In success their minds become more open to other changes, which leads to Tzeentch. In failure they despair, which if not rectified leads to Nurgle.

I think Khorne is most likely. A progression like thus: "Seek battle, seek victory, seek to spill the blood of the enemies of the Emperor. Become the best warrior possible in His name, and destroy all those in your path. Set a fire to your enemies, litter the ground with their fiery corpses, and put their still-burning skulls on pikes as a warning to future heretics, to tell all the world of what will happen to them should they also betray. Blood for the Emperor, skulls for the Golden Throne! Death on the battlefield in service to the Skull Thro... I mean Golden Throne is the best reward! ... why are you looking at me like that?"

The Imperium isn't exactly big on change. The Adepta Sororitas are a perfect example of stagnation, given that even after thousands of years they still follow the same teachings they had back in the San Leor Temple.

For Tzeentch, I'd rather look at the politics. Canonesses often get drawn into power games between various Imperial adepta and factions of the Ministorum, having to struggle between their ideals and what would be best for "their" Sisterhood. A lot of temptation, to be sure. Many Canonesses may wish to be able to wield the kind of influence that may enable her to shape Imperial politics in a way that she deems best for mankind as a whole.

There are good reasons for every Chaos god. Doesn't change anything about my belief that Slaanesh still offers the best ones, though. The Sororitas' extreme devotion and faith may just tend to cancel out the other three.

If Khorne would be so easy, it wouldn't take abduction by a bunch of CSM to have a single Sister fall to Chaos. They're exposed to violence almost daily, so that doesn't seem to be sufficient.

Suppose the World Eaters would have captured Miriael - how could they have corrupted her? Giving her a weapon and hope she goes into a frenzy whilst she kills half of them?

Melissia wrote:Tzeentch instills hope and a desire to change the system because it is harming the faithful, because it is inefficient, because it is losing a war, etc. In success their minds become more open to other changes, which leads to Tzeentch. In failure they despair, which if not rectified leads to Nurgle.

I think Khorne is most likely. A progression like thus: "Seek battle, seek victory, seek to spill the blood of the enemies of the Emperor. Become the best warrior possible in His name, and destroy all those in your path. Set a fire to your enemies, litter the ground with their fiery corpses, and put their still-burning skulls on pikes as a warning to future heretics, to tell all the world of what will happen to them should they also betray. Blood for the Emperor, skulls for the Golden Throne! Death on the battlefield in service to the Skull Thro... I mean Golden Throne is the best reward! ... why are you looking at me like that?"

While I don't agree with your assesment of Tzeentchian corruption (there's a little too much "free-thought" and "questioning of authority" inherant in that path) I do think your Khornate corruption path was rather more elegant than my own. Thanks for your response.

In other news, I find this whole thread particularly interesting because my gf is looking to possibly start a SoB army. She knows next to nothing about the fluff (I'm working on it...) but likes the look of them (women in combat who don't dress like whores?! )... however, she was taken aback by their codex name... "Witch Hunters". Y'see, she actually is a practising witch (in the contemporary sense, not the classical sense... or the 40K sense) so that balloon didn't go over well with her. She very well might want to, erm... Chaos-ify her army as a protest or something. I don't think she'll go Slaanesh, though. At any rate, it might not be an issue if the SoB get the same kind of name change that the Grey Knights got ie: Codex Daemon Hunters becoming Codex Grey Knights. If the new army book is called "Codex Sisters of Battle" then all should be well.

Suidhills: tell her that in the lore, "witch" doesn't refer to wicca but to people with psychic powers. So you can have her think of it as "psychic-hunter" instead. Wicca as a variation of the Imperial Cult would likely be accepted in the Imperium, Emperor knows that there's plenty of weirder practices in canon anyway!

Lynata wrote:If Khorne would be so easy, it wouldn't take abduction by a bunch of CSM to have a single Sister fall to Chaos. They're exposed to violence almost daily, so that doesn't seem to be sufficient.

Because of discipline, faith, training, and prayer.

I SAY DO IT!!! ITLL BE EPIC!!!!!


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then i can recruit from you for part of my legion lol

Lynata wrote:There are good reasons for every Chaos god. Doesn't change anything about my belief that Slaanesh still offers the best ones, though. The Sororitas' extreme devotion and faith may just tend to cancel out the other three.

Wait, why the other three and not Slaanesh? That doesn't make sense. There's a kind of assumption in this statement that there's an underlying desire to succumb to depravity and excess but not to despair, deceit, or lust for killing, do you not think?

Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

Melissia wrote:Suidhills: tell her that in the lore, "witch" doesn't refer to wicca but to people with psychic powers. So you can have her think of it as "psychic-hunter" instead. Wicca as a variation of the Imperial Cult would likely be accepted in the Imperium, Emperor knows that there's plenty of weirder practices in canon anyway!

That's a very good idea, actually! I was about to post that the SoB will indeed revert to their original name (at least for the WD 'dex), but that they will likely continue to hunt witches (meaning psykers) and that this will likely be mentioned a lot in their fluff.

However, it's indeed just a name thing. If I understand wicca correctly, that could very well be an accepted practice in the Imperium. Many less developed worlds have their healers working with weird tinctures made from local plants and animals - and the Imperial Creed can take a lot of strange forms. If it's fine that the Emperor is worshipped as "the eye in the sky" or "the great lion who roams the plains", it shouldn't be hard to invent a similar connection for a wicca-themed cult. Perhaps that'd even be closer to the truth than the most commonly preached dogma, considering that the Emperor was called a shaman once.

Melissia wrote:Because of discipline, faith, training, and prayer.

Exactly.

htj wrote:Wait, why the other three and not Slaanesh? That doesn't make sense. There's a kind of assumption in this statement that there's an underlying desire to succumb to depravity and excess but not to despair, deceit, or lust for killing, do you not think?

I think you misunderstood me. What I meant is that every Chaos god would have something that could be applied to a Sororitas. Tzeentch for political power games, Khorne for the violence and the war against unbelievers, even Nurgle for a Hospitaller fighting to save a planet's population before everyone dies of a terrible plague.

None of this - including the lure of Slaanesh - would have an effect on the day-to-day operations of the Sororitas, as is obvious when we look at the number of Sisters who have been corrupted in the past couple millennia. Yet one of them, Miriael Sabathiel, did fall - to Slaanesh. What I'm saying is that the other Chaos Gods would be unable to provide sufficient "attractivity" to a Sororitas, because they are already exposed to their respective domains daily.

I didn't mean to suggest some sort of "underlying desire" - though now that you say it, there's a certain point about that as well. Perhaps not a desire but a weakness, for the biological requirements that would make a Sister feel good about certain things (and no, I'm not just referring to sex) are still present*, even though the means to deliver them are suppressed. This is why I was describing it as a "missing immunization" earlier, for I would say that inherently it is human to want to feel good. Their discipline and lifestyle of deprivation makes them remain uncorrupted, but Miriael did neither have the support of her Sisters nor the chance to avoid whatever the Emperor's Children subjected her to.

(*: excluding the possibility that they were altered via some form of medical treatment, but that doesn't seem very likely at least for taste and smell)

Alternatively, we could of course just as well turn to excessive pain as an explanation, though I maintain that this would put a lot more Sororitas at risk of corruption, given that it is part of their daily life. That they don't fall in droves could only be explained by convent life regulating them and Repentias not having a very long lifespan anyways. "Choose your poison".

Well, yeah I will explain that to her when I next chat with her about the game. I'm pretty sure she knows that already (on some level) and is just trolling me a little IRL.

The best explanation is that the author of that fluff bit was just trying to titilate readers, kinda like how comic book artists keep drawing their girls with bigger and bigger tits.

But is it pleasure you are saying is removed from their life, Lynata? I would argue that pleasure is present in SoB's lives, and that they take it in, amongst other things, worshiping the Emperor.

Melissia wrote:The best explanation is that the author of that fluff bit was just trying to titilate readers, kinda like how comic book artists keep drawing their girls with bigger and bigger tits.

Wait, do you mean the bit with the pen? The bit where it specifically states there are no penintant whippings and sexy nonsense? Surely that's anti-titillation?

htj wrote:But is it pleasure you are saying is removed from their life, Lynata? I would argue that pleasure is present in SoB's lives, and that they take it in, amongst other things, worshiping the Emperor.

And you'd be right in saying so! That they might even take pleasure in pain was my other theory, after all.

I'm just not sure that this pleasure can completely replace the ritually avoided sensation of, say, a delicious feast of cakes. Or, yes, that dreaded sexual ecstasy that despite being horribly cliché remains a part of every human's existence. I understand why one may want to argue it away, but it remains a viable explanation. Please don't kill the messenger for pointing it out, Melissia!

I also just remembered that Miriael mentioned singing Daemon Princes in the short story Abnett wrote about her ... maybe it was a daemon's song that corrupted her? Days of being subjected to a voice so unnatural but so beautiful that it finally brought her to tears. Option #3, and quite slaaneshi as well. And it'd come with the twist that singing is also an important part of a Sororitas' daily life ...

You don't need to make the Sisters of Battle into Slaneeshi cultists for your fantasies...

Service to the Emperor is much sexier.

Good thing, we know that only one sister was corrupted by Chaos so far. And an army consisting of only one model is not very competitive usually.

Concerning the original question: Maybe your girlfriend might have a look at Dark Eldar: Lots of females with spikes and leather and a background allowing them to be naughty

Kroothawk wrote:Good thing, we know that only one sister was corrupted by Chaos so far. And an army consisting of only one model is not very competitive usually.

Depends on the model.

"Hi there, I'm fielding Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of the Thousand Sons and Master of the Planet of Sorcerors as my 10,000 point Apocalypse army. What are you bringing?"

"I'll be playing the part of an Imperiator Titan. I'm considered Truescale."

I'd say the SoB are plenty grimdark enough. They recruit orphans and put them to work. They wage wars of religion for the Imperial Cult. Storming rebel cities, executing surrendered unbelievers with flamers and gathering up for prayers among mountains of dead smoldering bodies is nothing odd. And as an old SoB General myself there's also the idea that you have to sacrifice a certain amount of sisters to get anything done.

An army of Sisters could be very nasty when built around the idea of going the extra mile for the Emperor, entirely without any Chaos at all.

Spetulhu wrote:I'd say the SoB are plenty grimdark enough. They recruit orphans and put them to work. They wage wars of religion for the Imperial Cult. Storming rebel cities, executing surrendered unbelievers with flamers and gathering up for prayers among mountains of dead smoldering bodies is nothing odd. And as an old SoB General myself there's also the idea that you have to sacrifice a certain amount of sisters to get anything done.

An army of Sisters could be very nasty when built around the idea of going the extra mile for the Emperor, entirely without any Chaos at all.

+1 to that. Though I'd replace "sacrifice" with "martyr" and add a few more creepy things to the list.

squidhills wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Good thing, we know that only one sister was corrupted by Chaos so far. And an army consisting of only one model is not very competitive usually.

Depends on the model.

"Hi there, I'm fielding Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of the Thousand Sons and Master of the Planet of Sorcerors as my 10,000 point Apocalypse army. What are you bringing?"

"I'll be playing the part of an Imperiator Titan. I'm considered Truescale."

"I bring Draigo."
"Okay, you win. Hey, what are you doing with my Magnus model??? Put away that knife!!!!!"

Lynata wrote:

Eumerin wrote:She's semi-retired

I'm not sure you can actually "retire" as a SoB.

Which is why I added the "semi-" in there. She's still a Sister, but she's not serving directly with other Sisters at this time, and is no longer doing what she spent her entire career doing. She's likely to remain in her current position until she's forced to leave due to health issues. At that point I imagine that she'll return to her convent and spend the rest of her days in quiet study and contemplation. And perhaps occasionally spend an evening chatting with the active leadership of her convent over a meal and quiet entertainment (not necessarily cards - something like chess might be more likely).

In short, she's probably not going to spend any more time doing what people normally think of when the phrase Adepta Sororitas is mentioned.


The rest of the faculty is all in the same position. For example, Cain's still a Commissar. But outside of exceptional circumstances (such as the ones in the novel) he's never going to serve in a campaign again.

She's not retired, she's just moved to a different mode of service applicable to her current skillset.

The Sisters of Battle need teachers after all. And the non-militant Sororitas need bodyguards or other assistants, and she can lways be trained in medicae or linguistics (even if it might take hypnotherapy).

Eumerin wrote:Which is why I added the "semi-" in there. She's still a Sister, but she's not serving directly with other Sisters at this time, and is no longer doing what she spent her entire career doing. She's likely to remain in her current position until she's forced to leave due to health issues. At that point I imagine that she'll return to her convent and spend the rest of her days in quiet study and contemplation. And perhaps occasionally spend an evening chatting with the active leadership of her convent over a meal and quiet entertainment (not necessarily cards - something like chess might be more likely). In short, she's probably not going to spend any more time doing what people normally think of when the phrase Adepta Sororitas is mentioned.

Ahh, gotcha. A position like that is quite likely indeed one of the most useful spots for a vet who isn't quite "too old" yet, as such a person would have a lot to teach the young progena and potential future novices.

I just still can't come to terms with how that character's behavior seems to be quite different from what GW wrote about the "strict and puritan lifestyle of the teachers" at the Schola, or how Sisters in general are "dedicated to a life of penitent worship and humble living" with "no room for pleasure".

Just some small criticism that should not be taken too seriously, for I'm focusing on fluff details alone and do not want to judge the actual quality of the writing or the basic plot elements. I'm just quite ... shall we say pedantic when it comes to SoB canon, for reasons already mentioned.

Humans are humans... go figure...

purplefood wrote:Humans are humans... go figure...

You just blew my mind.

Goddard wrote:

purplefood wrote:Humans are humans... go figure...

You just blew my mind.

I'm insightful like that.

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

There is something realy wrong with you.


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Kroothawk wrote:Good thing, we know that only one sister was corrupted by Chaos so far. And an army consisting of only one model is not very competitive usually.

Concerning the original question: Maybe your girlfriend might have a look at Dark Eldar: Lots of females with spikes and leather and a background allowing them to be naughty

We have the dex but shes not convinced, bloody women lol (runs and hides)

The Sisters fluff changed 3 times regarding this outcome...

Sisters of Battle 2'nd edition (1997): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Daemonfuge comic (1999) : "Several Sisters fall to Chaos corruption."
Witchhunters 3'rd edition codex (2003): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Cain's Last Stand: " entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."

We have yet to see what will new Sisters codex tell us about this. But I am sticking to the codex entries, it is more reliable source of fluff.

Yeah, guess a 12 year old comic and a satirical novel override what is said in two Codices

We shall see what new codex have to say about that...
And we all know, the newer fluff overrides the old one...
( like Damnos incident ).

Brother Coa wrote:We shall see what new codex have to say about that...
And we all know, the newer fluff overrides the old one...
( like Damnos incident ).

Personally, I'm not keen to have fluff that I love overridden for an army that I've spent hours and a fortune over years collecting and painting. Hopefully, the new Codex will be true to the old Codex fluff.

ive seen groblins dressed as guard, ive seen orks modeled as dark angels, ive see a bloke turn skaven into a orks guard hybrid

mate if your wife wants chaotic sisters of battle, no body can stop her, after she buys the paint and the models id say she's legally obliged to do what she wants to them

Yea thats it, as I said just wanted to guage reaction lol.

Incidentally, WHFB has a female Chaos character who not only does not wear skimpy armour and revealing chainmail bikinis, but actually beheads anyone who suggests she should.
Now, why is that such a hard concept to transfer to the Sisters, who are trained for battle (not against sexual activity, mark you, they are perfectly allowed to engage in that) and thus would probably most likely be addicted to the worship of Khorne?


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dreadanant wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

There is something realy wrong with you.

Naturally anyone who dares actually criticise the Iron Corset and Kinky Space Nuns is clearly lacking in mental faculties, hurr.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:not against sexual activity, mark you, they are perfectly allowed to engage in that

sexual activity = pleasure = no-go for Sisters as per GW canon.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Now, why is that such a hard concept to transfer to the Sisters, who are trained for battle and thus would probably most likely be addicted to the worship of Khorne?

I maintain that Khorne doesn't fit because they've been doing this stuff about 5.000 years and not a single one has fallen. It simply doesn't happen just like that, so on the basis of Miriael Sabathiel it must be something different than what they are normally exposed to.

That said, I love Miriael's character design. Goes to show how even a Slaaneshi follower can appear sensual without showing any skin (aside from the head, obviously).

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Naturally anyone who dares actually criticise the Iron Corset and Kinky Space Nuns is clearly lacking in mental faculties, hurr.

I really don't want to get involved with that mud-fight, but personally, I think there's a bit of one-sided "oversensitivity" going on here. Slaanesh and his/her cultists do follow a certain style, and suggesting that females should be exempt from it on account of their gender is just as sexist as drooling about it, so trying to proclaim morale high ground probably won't work very good in this discussion. Discarding the most obvioius explanations just because it's perceived as cliché and one doesn't like it is not very constructive either.

Of course, one could still dislike the concept of Slaanesh in general.

Just reminds me of the "female Predator" discussion in the News section, actually ...

If your rant was directed against the design of the normal SoB, though, I'll take that back. Not that the obvious overmasculinization of Marines is any different from SoB armour design, mind you. Personally, I'm just lucky that they look quite professional and badass.

I only hope that any new miniatures - should they ever get them - will not introduce those dreaded heels one gets to see in some fan-artworks or even on Blanche's drawings.

Lynata wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Naturally anyone who dares actually criticise the Iron Corset and Kinky Space Nuns is clearly lacking in mental faculties, hurr.

I really don't want to get involved with that mud-fight, but personally, I think there's a bit of one-sided "oversensitivity" going on here. Slaanesh and his/her cultists do follow a certain style, and suggesting that females should be exempt from it on account of their gender is just as sexist as drooling about it, so trying to proclaim morale high ground probably won't work very good in this discussion. Discarding the most obvioius explanations just because it's perceived as cliché and one doesn't like it is not very constructive either.

I'll clear this up. Basically, the guy I quoted seemed to think that if you suggested that oversexualisation was wrong, you were in some way faulty. I actually like the themes of Slaanesh quite a great deal, and with good reason - perversity, arrogance and cruelty make for great traits in any villain, and ol' Slaanesh has that in spades.

I don't object to slaanesh' oversexualization. That's the point, practically. Hell I even considered getting a Slaanesh based daemon army until I saw the hideous new models.

But it DOES NOT fit Sisters of Battle at all.

Brother Coa wrote:The Sisters fluff changed 3 times regarding this outcome...

Sisters of Battle 2'nd edition (1997): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Daemonfuge comic (1999) : "Several Sisters fall to Chaos corruption."
Witchhunters 3'rd edition codex (2003): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Cain's Last Stand: " entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."

We have yet to see what will new Sisters codex tell us about this. But I am sticking to the codex entries, it is more reliable source of fluff.

Cain's Last Stand is an exception considering the circumstances. Once the sisters get their minds back the happily off themselves.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:The Sisters fluff changed 3 times regarding this outcome...

Sisters of Battle 2'nd edition (1997): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Daemonfuge comic (1999) : "Several Sisters fall to Chaos corruption."
Witchhunters 3'rd edition codex (2003): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Cain's Last Stand: " entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."

We have yet to see what will new Sisters codex tell us about this. But I am sticking to the codex entries, it is more reliable source of fluff.

Cain's Last Stand is an exception considering the circumstances. Once the sisters get their minds back the happily off themselves.

Not to mention the comic is really the odd one out there. Not that I don't like Daemonifuge, but it was kind of out there when it came to existing fluff.

Brother Coa wrote:We shall see what new codex have to say about that...

Probably ignored. Has anything that Cain's been involved in received recognition in a codex? And technically what happens isn't so much a "fallen to Chaos" thing as a "forcibly rewrote the victims' concept of reality" sort of thing. It's more mind control than anything else - albeit mind control that appears to the ignorant observer to be ridiculously good persuasive skills and that lasts The moment that the effect is removed from two of the Sisters, It's not so much a "fall" (which implies at least a certain amount of voluntary actions on the victim's part) as it is having someone else's point of view forcibly imposed over your own.

It's just not a good example. Psykers can mind-control victims. Stupidly powerful ones designed with tons of stupidly written plot armor (such as the ersatz Hitler Clone in Cain's Last Stand) that exists only to be stripped away at the most suitable moment can mind-control whatever the hell the writer wants.

Melissia wrote:It's just not a good example. Psykers can mind-control victims. Stupidly powerful ones designed with tons of stupidly written plot armor (such as the ersatz Hitler Clone in Cain's Last Stand) that exists only to be stripped away at the most suitable moment can mind-control whatever the hell the writer wants.

It's Cain.

*shrug*


On a more serious note, taking the use of his power to its logical conclusion, the guy should have had an army big enough to completely sweep away the planet's defenses in an instant by that point in time. He also should have been fairly aggressive in attempting to "open negotiations" with the other side in order to suborn leadership the moment that he set foot on a planet.

IRT that pic posted a few pages back...

... maybe I'm missing something, but nothing about them says "Fallen Sister of Battle". They're female Khornate Champions, at a guess. Maybe they learned some stuff from some WytchElves or something, hence the lack of armor (then again, Kharn is often depicted fighting in a loincloth as well) or that their devotion to Khorne is such that they live only to slay in his name, and give no thought to their own protection or defense.

Eumerin wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's just not a good example. Psykers can mind-control victims. Stupidly powerful ones designed with tons of stupidly written plot armor (such as the ersatz Hitler Clone in Cain's Last Stand) that exists only to be stripped away at the most suitable moment can mind-control whatever the hell the writer wants.

It's Cain.

*shrug*


On a more serious note, taking the use of his power to its logical conclusion, the guy should have had an army big enough to completely sweep away the planet's defenses in an instant by that point in time. He also should have been fairly aggressive in attempting to "open negotiations" with the other side in order to suborn leadership the moment that he set foot on a planet.

He pretty much had the former IIRC.

Psienesis wrote:IRT that pic posted a few pages back...

... maybe I'm missing something, but nothing about them says "Fallen Sister of Battle". They're female Khornate Champions, at a guess. Maybe they learned some stuff from some WytchElves or something, hence the lack of armor (then again, Kharn is often depicted fighting in a loincloth as well) or that their devotion to Khorne is such that they live only to slay in his name, and give no thought to their own protection or defense.

In the thread the artist posted it in, it was described as their conception of Khornate SoB.

Maybe so... but without that explanation, it's not portrayed in the image, at least in my opinion. They look like how I would expect female Khornate Champions would look if they were of the mindset that armor is for those who are weak and fear death... or who had, perhaps, been DE slaves before their conversion or w/e.

Just sayin', the only link that the image, alone, gives me to the Sororitas is that the Soroitas are women, and here are some women, so... they must be fallen Sororitas or something? I dunno.... yeah, artist's interpretation, etc and all that... I just don't see it.

Psienesis wrote:Maybe so... but without that explanation, it's not portrayed in the image, at least in my opinion. They look like how I would expect female Khornate Champions would look if they were of the mindset that armor is for those who are weak and fear death... or who had, perhaps, been DE slaves before their conversion or w/e.

Just sayin', the only link that the image, alone, gives me to the Sororitas is that the Soroitas are women, and here are some women, so... they must be fallen Sororitas or something? I dunno.... yeah, artist's interpretation, etc and all that... I just don't see it.

There are also a couple of weapons that are frequently linked to the Sororitas, such as the flamer featured quite prominently up in the front rank.

But generally, yes I'd have to agree with you. You probably wouldn't realize that they were supposed to be Sororitas if you weren't specifically told that they were.

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

They are strongly influenced by John Blanche's art, and are one of the few armies in 40K that still truly reflect that old Gothic feel.

edit: was mislead by another response by what was being discussed... my comment is about the Sororitas' current design of corsets and such

Omegus wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

They are strongly influenced by John Blanche's art

Sexism/sexual fantasy and John Blanches' gakky art = one and the same.

squidhills wrote:however, she was taken aback by their codex name... "Witch Hunters". Y'see, she actually is a practising witch (in the contemporary sense, not the classical sense... or the 40K sense) so that balloon didn't go over well with her. She very well might want to, erm... Chaos-ify her army as a protest or something.

*eyes roll so hard they fall out of the eye sockets and splatter on the floor*

Ah, that's a relief.

Actually, I think the armor design has a perfectly valid in-universe reason for existing: The person wearing it is "obviously" female.

I put "obviously" in quotes because, yes, it could be a man in that power armor with the pointy breasticles on the front... but the point, I think, is to indicate that the person wearing this power armor is female, and it indicates that to anyone standing close, and standing several hundred meters away with unassisted eyesight. It's the Ecclesiarchy being overzealous in enforcing the "no man under arms" decree placed upon them.

Also, the corset-like appearance could be, instead, a bustier, which is an article of outer-wear, rather than underwear. Or it could just be a reference to Gothic clothing styles (not the old Gothic, the newer Gothic), which is often corsetry and bustiers, and which blends well into this grimdark setting (being, itself, rather grimdark).

ETA: Inferno Pistols and flamers in general are not reserved to the Sororitas alone. Lots of units make use of them... the general-purpose flamer, especially, is popular with Guardsman fighting Orks, as it not only covers a wide area when the charge comes, but keeps them from spreading spores. Inferno Pistols are, iirc, pretty old guns... makes sense that they would appear in the caches of the Traitor Legions.

Brother Coa wrote:We shall see what new codex have to say about that...
And we all know, the newer fluff overrides the old one...
( like Damnos incident ).

Codex/rulebook material trumps Black Library stuff.

Although the fifth edition rulebook has wrong information about Sisters in it.

Wrong? Or Ret-conned?

Pretty sure the rulebook for the table-top game can't be "wrong", as far as fluff is concerned (though something could certainly be misprinted which causes a change in meaning or intent), as New Rulebook Fluff overrides and supersedes Previous Rulebook Fluff.

Psienesis wrote:Also, the corset-like appearance could be, instead, a bustier, which is an article of outer-wear, rather than underwear.

Actually, you are spot on. There are images where you see the Angel-pattern armour without the leather corset, revealing a belly of layered armour plates (sort of like the banded mail from Roman Legionaries). Other times you see the leather corset replaced by a full metal and richly ornamented plackart, apparently granting both additional protection as well as signifying a higher rank - for you only ever see this worn by what appears to be Canonesses and Elite Celestians:



I take the leather corset as a simple protective measure to guard the banded plates against dirt, similar to how they sometimes seem to wear leather gloves above their gauntlets. I've never perceived it as "lingerie".

As for their weapons, the most popular one is still the bolter, though together with melta and flamer they have been called the Sisterhood's "Holy Trinity".

Psienesis wrote:Wrong? Or Ret-conned?

Or perhaps even neither.

It is said that the Order of Our Martyred Lady is down to three companies of Sisters due to their terrible losses in the Third War of Armageddon. If other Orders Maioris have suffered similar casualties, it is not unthinkable that some of them would be merged - or downgraded to Orders Minoris.
I'm just glad to see that they've maintained the relative scarcity of SoB that was first mentioned in the 2E 'dex.

If they really do a retcon, though, I'd hope they would bring the Orders' colours into a more organized line. Think about it: The SoB traditionally only use the colours white, black and red for their armour and clothing. The 5E book says they have three Orders Maioris. A smart idea would be to have each Major Order stand for a specific colour, with all Minor Orders using variations of that scheme. For example, the Order Maioris of the Bloody Rose is all red. Its spin-off Order Minoris of the Martyred Lady retains the red for the robes, but takes a black armour. And so on.
Just an idea/theory, of course. It would sadly require some re-writing on part of what Orders existed first and which Convent they are assigned to, so this should really only be touched when they've decided to rewrite their history anyways ... all in all, I'd still prefer that some Orders were simply merged or scaled back to Minoris size as part of some internal restructurization program that expands on the Sororitas' present situation, instead of retroactively changing their past.

Psienesis wrote:Wrong? Or Ret-conned?

Pretty sure the rulebook for the table-top game can't be "wrong", as far as fluff is concerned (though something could certainly be misprinted which causes a change in meaning or intent), as New Rulebook Fluff overrides and supersedes Previous Rulebook Fluff.

Yes, wrong. Imagine if the rulebook said there were only ten legions, two disappeared for unknown reasons, four turned to chaos, four turned loyal. Contradicting the codex and ALL other fluff about the army.

That would be wrong, yes?

The rulebook claims that there are only three major orders, when there are six. These are the Sisters' equivalents to the original legions. It is just plain stupid, and such a retcon absolutely ruins the faction as... well, a viable faction, removing the vast majority of the Sisters from continuity. It's just stupid, and also stupid.

LIke most 40k fluff it shall we say keeps evolving - I have got to the point of deciding which bits I like for my own 40k universe (for rpging and gaming)

the original incarnation of the Adepta Sororitas does not mention size of the organisation but implies its huge and at that point has its own fleet to police the imperium - "administering genetic and psychological tests". and of course the first image we see is "Sister Sin" executing an apparently smaller Asartes

The first proper Codex has "present day numbers" as a mere 18,000 sisters of battle with uncountered numbers in the other Orders.

Witchunters does not seem to give any figures but is in line with the previous - althoug more mention is made of Lesser orders as well as the 6 Greater Orders

Hopefully the forthcoming White Dwarf Codex will be good - as well asgiving new models but more importantly keep the primary fluff alive and mcuh as before - less of a re-write than the Grey Knights

Although it would be amusing to have some Sisters burning some Grey Knights for the percieved crimes of lack of Faith or impersonating a officer of the Inquisiton or similar

Evolving, devolving, what's the difference, right?

Psienesis wrote:Maybe so... but without that explanation, it's not portrayed in the image, at least in my opinion. They look like how I would expect female Khornate Champions would look if they were of the mindset that armor is for those who are weak and fear death... or who had, perhaps, been DE slaves before their conversion or w/e..

I respectfully disagree. Nothing about their outfit says they scorn armour in any way; what it does say is that they sure like battle lingerie. If the former was the case, I'd expect a great deal more of this:

Now, you see how the female in question is nude without it being sexualised? How she looks, well, dangerously insane as opposed to alluring? That's how I'd expect to see female khornate warriors who genuinely scorn armour as a sign of cowardice. The art posted earlier, on the other hand, did not look anything like this; indeed, if anything, it was more of the generic fantasy female archetype.

This thread has been pruned. Family-friendly, folks.

The rulebook claims that there are only three major orders, when there are six. These are the Sisters' equivalents to the original legions. It is just plain stupid, and such a retcon absolutely ruins the faction as... well, a viable faction, removing the vast majority of the Sisters from continuity. It's just stupid, and also stupid.

Ordos Militant, Ordos Dialogus, Ordos Famulous, Ordos Hospitaler. That's 4, actually... neither 3 nor 6, so you're both wrong. I have seen... somewhere, I don't recall where... a mention that Famulous and Dialogus might be/have been rolled into 1 Order, which would make 3 major orders, but I've not seen it supported elsewhere yet, so I'm discarding it for the moment.

Now, if you meant Convents... well, that's a different thing entirely.

As far as the Legion thing... well, if it's published in a rulebook, that's the way it goes, isn't it? Whether I like it or not, whether I agree with it or not, makes no difference at all. The canon is now whatever the latest rulebook/codex says. If I don't like it I can, of course, ignore it in favor of old fluff for my games... but that simply makes my games non-canon-compliant, it doesn't make GW's canon publication wrong.

Psienesis wrote:

The rulebook claims that there are only three major orders, when there are six. These are the Sisters' equivalents to the original legions. It is just plain stupid, and such a retcon absolutely ruins the faction as... well, a viable faction, removing the vast majority of the Sisters from continuity. It's just stupid, and also stupid.

Ordos Militant, Ordos Dialogus, Ordos Famulous, Ordos Hospitaler. That's 4, actually... neither 3 nor 6, so you're both wrong.

The Dialogous, Famulous, and Hospitaller are not Sisters of Battle.

The six Orders Majoris are thus:

Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of Our Martyred Lady
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Valorous Heart
Order of the Argent Shroud

I believe you will find that "Sisters of Battle" and "Adeptus Sororitas" are used interchangeably by a very high number of players as well as GW/BL writers. While the "Sisters of Battle" moniker specifically refers to the Ordos Militant, in proper usage, it's a much easier thing to remember (and spell) than "Adeptus Sororitas". This may be the source of this issue, a simple misunderstanding, or alternate usage of, the term.

Of course, it may be that 3 of those Militant Orders have been destroyed or rolled into one of the others after significant losses, or whatever. Maybe they're hinting at a future publication where such events will be revealed? Who knows.

Not sure what the "canon" fate of the Order of the Sacred Rose is, as that's the Order featured in the video game Dawn of War: Soulstorm. I do know that the canonical ending of that storyline is an IG victory, but the Sisters were not summarily executed or anything. It may be that the losses suffered during the campaign caused the Order to be disbanded and rolled into others, or perhaps all of the survivors were made Sisters Repentia in penance? Again, who knows.

The Order of Our Martyred Lady was absolutely mauled during the 3rd Armageddon War. It's said they recovered, but that was on Lexicanum, so I'm not certain to the veracity of the claim. This may be another case of Lexicanum not knowing as much as GW, who might reveal more in further, future publications, and this Order may have been too few in number after the war to continue, and may have been rolled into another. Who knows? (...this is becoming a near-meme.)

Though, completely tangental, I'm surprised at the number of "canon" Orders Militant taking an interest in FFG's Calixis Sector. The Ebon Chalice has people on Iocanthos, the Bloody Rose has a Convent on Malfi (what a gakky world *that* is!), and the Order of the Valorous Heart was involved in suppressing a mutant uprising on Sepheris Secundis (another gakky world in the Calixis sector).

Seems the Calixis Sector is particularly favored in seeing some Sister action...

Psienesis wrote:Of course, it may be that 3 of those Militant Orders have been destroyed or rolled into one of the others after significant losses, or whatever. Maybe they're hinting at a future publication where such events will be revealed? Who knows.

Which would be stupid, like having half of all the first founding chapters wiped out in one go. So you like Raven Guard, or White Scars, or Salamanders, or Iron Hands? GONE! Sorry kids, they don't exist anymore, have fun somewhere else. You may choose between Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, or Imperial Fists.

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Of course, it may be that 3 of those Militant Orders have been destroyed or rolled into one of the others after significant losses, or whatever. Maybe they're hinting at a future publication where such events will be revealed? Who knows.

Which would be stupid, like having half of all the first founding chapters wiped out in one go. So you like Raven Guard, or White Scars, or Salamanders, or Iron Hands? GONE! Sorry kids, they don't exist anymore, have fun somewhere else. You may choose between Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, or Imperial Fists.

That sounds like a valid codex lineup.

Psienesis wrote:Not sure what the "canon" fate of the Order of the Sacred Rose is, as that's the Order featured in the video game Dawn of War: Soulstorm. I do know that the canonical ending of that storyline is an IG victory, but the Sisters were not summarily executed or anything. It may be that the losses suffered during the campaign caused the Order to be disbanded and rolled into others, or perhaps all of the survivors were made Sisters Repentia in penance? Again, who knows.

Does the game state that the entire Order was present? Or merely that it sent a force to the system?

A destruction or merger would be the worst-possible outcome, of course, and - I'm being optimistic here - the least likely. It's just as possible that three of the major Orders have been made minor ones due to the horrible losses they suffered. Still a big change in terms of significance, but they'd remain perfectly playable.

Or it was just a typo. We'll know soon enough, I hope.

Eumerin wrote:Does the game state that the entire Order was present? Or merely that it sent a force to the system?

Just a Commandery, meaning something between 50 and 200 Sisters.

Plus, I'm not even sure this campaign is to be taken at face value - a Living Saint doesn't just pop up like that and vanishes again, such an event only happens once every couple centuries and is rather important (too important for just 50-200 Sisters), and the "current" Living Saint is Celestine (though she's already KIA as far as the story is concerned).

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Of course, it may be that 3 of those Militant Orders have been destroyed or rolled into one of the others after significant losses, or whatever. Maybe they're hinting at a future publication where such events will be revealed? Who knows.

Which would be stupid, like having half of all the first founding chapters wiped out in one go. So you like Raven Guard, or White Scars, or Salamanders, or Iron Hands? GONE! Sorry kids, they don't exist anymore, have fun somewhere else. You may choose between Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, or Imperial Fists.

Not really, as the Orders are not differentiated to the point of the Astartes Chapters. And even if the current fluff M999-era will have half the orders dead, if you are particularly enamored with one Order's paint-scheme, 40K armies can represent any point in time in the last 10,000 years. Just paint them how you like, call them what you like, hell invent a seventh super secret Order no one knew about, it doesn't make a real difference.

You are putting far too much importance on an extremely niche faction.

Oh no you did-nt!

Oh yes, I did!

It's just as possible that three of the major Orders have been made minor ones due to the horrible losses they suffered. Still a big change in terms of significance, but they'd remain perfectly playable.

Yes, this is also a perfectly viable option, and kind of takes into account a natural progression of the storyline. We've had several of these Orders involved in large-scale conflicts in recent publications, all of them known to have suffered losses, to one degree or another, in their various campaigns. Given that there's not a whole lot of Sisters of Battle in the first place, I imagine they don't exactly have a huge pool of recruits to draw reinforcements from... if they did, I imagine there would be more Sisters in the first place.

Omegus wrote:You are putting far too much importance on an extremely niche faction.

You're not putting enough. Just because you don't like the faction is no reason that it should be abused.

That actually sounds like a great idea!

Melissia wrote:

Omegus wrote:You are putting far too much importance on an extremely niche faction.

You're not putting enough. Just because you don't like the faction is no reason that it should be abused.

You are making a big assumption. I like the Sisters of Battle, I just don't think changing the number of major Orders is as catastrophic as you make it out to be. No one cried and railed when the fluff had the Crimson Fists reduced to a single company. Eldar players did not cut their wrists when Eldrad died (well, probably). "Abused"? Get some perspective, seriously.

Omegus wrote:Get some perspective

I ask the same of you. Sisters have long been used as the scratching post of 40k. You might as well compare them with the Lamentors. Heaping yet-more abuse onto the faction is not a good thing.

So what if a SINGLE chapter gets harmed, or a single character? That's nowhere NEAR this level. Go read the fluff for the Order of Our Martyred Lady-- what the Crimson Fists went through there, this Order goes through pretty much every single battle... if the force sent is not casually wiped out entirely so GW can make whatever faction they happen to actually like at the time look better then it's wiped out to the point of only a few novitiates remain to mourn (Sanctuary 101, Third War of Armageddon, Second Tyrannic War, etc, all had this chapter wiped out, the fluff behind Ephrael Stern, etc etc etc). Pretty much all Sisters characters that have ever existed have long since been dead anyway, we haven't ever HAD a still-living character.

Melissia wrote:

Omegus wrote:Get some perspective

I ask the same of you. Sisters have long been used as the scratching post of 40k. You might as well compare them with the Lamentors. Heaping yet-more abuse onto the faction is not a good thing.

So what if a SINGLE chapter gets harmed, or a single character? That's nowhere NEAR this level. Go read the fluff for the Order of Our Martyred Lady-- what the Crimson Fists went through there, this Order goes through pretty much every single battle... if the force sent is not casually wiped out entirely so GW can make whatever faction they happen to actually like at the time look better then it's wiped out to the point of only a few novitiates remain to mourn (Sanctuary 101, Third War of Armageddon, Second Tyrannic War, etc, all had this chapter wiped out, the fluff behind Ephrael Stern, etc etc etc). Pretty much all Sisters characters that have ever existed have long since been dead anyway, we haven't ever HAD a still-living character.

Is it weird i find that kinda cool?

I find it frankly sexist (probably unintentionally, but the result is the same) and annoying, myself.

Maybe they should just make the things that wipe them out bigger... and scarier of course...
Or the Sisters survive the battle... that might be better actually.

At least the Tyrannic wars example provided examples of true heroism and even success on the side of the Sisters, but they were still wiped out to a woman unless you honestly believe that Praxedes and her Sisters have somehow been surviving, fighting literally inside of a Hive Fleet for decades. That particular example isn't as bad, to be sure, because of said heroism and even success (managing to evacuate an important Ecclesiarchy world).

But I think I'd rather them achieve victory in an important place instead of random made up places against enemies you've never heard of and whom are best described as a rabble of heretics that would embarrass the Lost and the Damned... but a lot of important battles already have their history set-- I honestly don't expect them to change the 13th Black Crusade or the Wars for Armageddon fluff, for example. Could they? Sure. Will they? Most likely not.

Probably not...

That said, there's always the potential to simply expand on existing things. For example, whilst everyone always talks of the losses of Our Martyred Lady, do we actually have any info about what the Argent Shroud did on Armageddon? Or what about those 100 worlds liberated by the Bloody Rose in their crusade against the Tyrant of Denescura we know next to nothing about?

Just sayin'. I bet there's a lot of still-untold stories about the major battles all over the timeline.

Not that I'd actually want to have the Sisters showing up too often. Considering their numbers, their relative absence in history makes sense. But one or two epic wins would be neat.

I think the Sisters need more love in the fluff. They do seem to get the very short, very sharp end of the stick alarmingly often.

The reason is fairly easy to deduce, though. GW loves Space Marines. They need to make Space Marines look good. How do you make them look good? Well, an easy way is to have them defeat an enemy that looks to be strong (let's say Necrons). How do you make the enemy look strong? By having it defeat another faction, that is itself kind of strong. Should the Necrons defeat Imperial Guard? No, the Guard get eaten on a daily basis. 5+ Armor save FTL. I know! The Sisters of Battle! They are almost Space Marines! Look at them; bolters and power armor! That says "strong". So the Necrons beat the Sisters, thus establishing they are "strong". Now the Marines can prove they are the mightiest, by beating the Necrons! BRILLIANT!

Unfortunately, the Sisters get used in this fashion a lot, since the Marines get used a lot.

It's probably not intentional, but in the end it can smell a lot like misogyny. Except when Matt Ward does it. Then I'm pretty sure it IS misogyny, and it IS intentional. (Slaughtering Sisters and bathing in their blood so that you can better fight the BLOOD GOD? Really, Matt? Really? Are you sure you had a date for the prom? Because that's not how it looks from here...)

I think marines are more easily corrupted because they are devoted to the Emperor through the orthodoxy of their chapter and not as directly as the Sister of Battle.

Another reason I think Sisters of Battle maybe more resistent to Chaos is inferences drawn from fluff that show women in the 40k universe are possibly more predisposed to resisting psonic and warp influences... a contributory reason for them being tasked to aid witchhunters.

I believe that holds true for SoB, specifically, but not women in general within the Imperium. The Sisterhood represents pretty much the absolute best, unenhanced human the Imperium can offer, regardless of gender.

I think the "women resist psykers better than men" idea is an illusion... we see more men in more roles, and thus more of them fall than we see happening to women, because the women in 40K we usually see are a) Sisters of Battle, b) Inquisitors, c) Arbites or Throne Agents.

We rarely see a "normal" woman try to resist psykers, daemons, the warp, a bolt-round to the grill... so our sample size is very heavily skewed to suggest that women are more resistant than men, but there's a fallacy in the experiment.

For example, if we take 100 men and expose them to the warp, and 10 resist and 90 die... and then take 10 women and 1 resists and 9 die... who's more resistant?

Yeah, it's an annoying failure of GW in general and BL in specific...

aka_mythos wrote:I think marines are more easily corrupted because they are devoted to the Emperor through the orthodoxy of their chapter and not as directly as the Sister of Battle.

That, and that Space Marines in general seem to have different priorities. Many Chapter's culture is "tainted" by outsiders being recruited at an age fairly young, but yet old enough to insert local beliefs, not all of which may be purged during hypno-indoctrination and reconditioning. Some Chapters thus freely adopt practices that border on the barbaric (such as cannibalism), which is one of the many reasons why the Ecclesiarchy eyes them with scepticism. Yet more importantly, though, is that Marines are extremely big on concepts such as pride and honour, which reflect one's own standing in society and are thus rather egoistical. Egoism is a weakness gladly exploited by Chaos.

Sisters of Battle, on the other hand, are raised from birth (that's how it was worded *shrug*) in the Imperium's scholae, and their indoctrination is only deepened further during their novitiate and the years in the Sisterhood. They have no pride or honour in a personal sense, they are utterly dedicated to their Order and the Imperium as a whole, happily relinquishing not only their lifes but also their ego when the situation calls for it, suffering humiliation and pain without question, nay, even regarding both as a path to salvation! For example, there is a rather old short story from WD concerning one Saint Mirian Delesse, ...

Sister Mirian's life as a member of the Sisterhood was entirely typical prior to the extraordinary events leading to her martyrdom and canonisation. With her parents recruited into the Imperial Guard she was placed in the care of the Schola, where an aptitude for faith and combat was noted in her. After her schooling she was transferred to the Order of the Emperor Ascendant, which placed her on the agricultural world Lacrima, as one of five Sisters caring for a shrine containing several sacred relics. Aside from protecting the shrine, her duties included seeing to the purity of the farmers in nearby villages, and assisting in operating a religious school run by the aging Sister Superior Meladie.

A garbled request for military aid called Imperial forces to Lacrima, in the form of the Space Marine White Scars Chapter, during the seventeenth year of Sister Mirian's service there. The Scars found several areas of Lacrima unresponsive to communication, and deployed with their customary speed. They found a Dark Eldar slave raid in progress among the farming communities near Sister Mirian's shrine, but even as they watched it seemed that their enemy would elude them and return to the safety of the webway. Yet as they sped towards their distant enemy, the long-range oculars mounted on their Rhino transports detected weapons fire from the middle of the Dark Eldar force, surrounding the leader's vehicle, which was thought to contain the webway transit equipment. The firing lasted only a few seconds, then the leader's vehicle exploded in a catastrophic detonation, throwing the entire raiding force into disarray, of which the White Scars took full advantage. All the Dark Eldar were wiped out.

A significant portion of the local farmers, later were found hiding in nearby fields, escorted by Sister Superior Meladie. She revealed that, when the attack had taken place, Sister Mirian had been the only one of the four combat-ready Sisters to survive the initial assault. She insisted that her Superior lead the evacuation, electing to remain in the deserted village herself, waiting for the Dark Eldar to find her. She discarded her armour, dressing herself in the most seductive clothing she could locate in a quick search of a nearby house. She left her bolter and pistol at the shrine, taking only one weapon with her, concealed in the folds of her clothing...one of the shrine's sacred relics: a vortex grenade.

Pretty badass in its own way, and I seriously don't see a Marine getting this idea. The Sororitas just seem to hit the exact right balance of self-sacrifice and zeal that they get a certain resistance against being influenced. It's as if Chaos would need a couple logs to kindle, of which the Sisters have few to none, which is - ironically enough - the result of them not having the libierties that other Imperial citizens including many Chapters of Space Marines are granted. If the Ecclesiarchy teaches that it is everyone's duty to share in the sacrifice of the Emperor, the Adepta Sororitas are the epitome of this philosophy.

Here's another bit, this time from the short story "Daemonblood" by Ben Counter, and though I often criticize novel stuff for the liberties and deviations it takes from GW's own canon, I feel that this one hit the nail on the head:

"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called tthe Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."

(the story is actually addressing this very topic in that it makes the Marine fall and the Sister go after him, so if anyone is interested, this is one I could recommend)

Lynata wrote:

Eumerin wrote:Does the game state that the entire Order was present? Or merely that it sent a force to the system?

Just a Commandery, meaning something between 50 and 200 Sisters.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait...
Are you sure on those numbers? You'd need thousands of men/women to take a whole planet, let alone a whole star system. Sending that few is just asking to be destroyed.

TrollPie wrote:Are you sure on those numbers? You'd need thousands of men/women to take a whole planet, let alone a whole star system. Sending that few is just asking to be destroyed.

That's how the meaning of a Commandery is explained in the Codex. Of course I'm not sure if the writers of that campaign fully understood this, but it should be noted that the Sisters did not exactly expect that much opposition in the first place. They arrived because of a warp storm and a Confessor claiming the local populace to be corrupted. Tau? Eldar? Necrons? Marines? Pretty sure those weren't part of their initial plans. Though doesn't the intro say that the Blood Ravens only made planetfall with a single company as well?

However, it should also be pointed out that the Sisters also raised Frateris Militia warbands from the local population (see the fluff-box of Sama District on the campaign map), and depending on what kind of equipment they are provided with they can in fact approach IG levels of lethalty. It's quite possible that, though the player only saw the SoB in action, minor engagements or mop-up operations were dealt with by masses of zealots.

I mean, I'm also a bit sceptical about there being only a single IG regiment for the entire system.

Lynata wrote:
Here's another bit, this time from the short story "Daemonblood" by Ben Counter, and though I often criticize novel stuff for the liberties and deviations it takes from GW's own canon, I feel that this one hit the nail on the head:

Daemonblood is a great example of the way I would explain the 'one sister has fallen to chaos' quote in the Sisters of Battle codex. It's a great story and the ending is pretty cool.

The sisters in Daemonifuge were corrupted by the influence of Asteroth as they tried to learn its secrets. Miriael, I would say, fell the same way as Castus, by being shown what power she could have if she denounced the Emperor and embraced Slaanesh.

Basically, a case of a willing fall with a choice offered.

Just how many Sisters are out there in the galaxy?

Lynata told me several thousands, but others say millions.

( Just what I tought in numbers IG >> SoB but SoB >> SM )

as long as you make up some decent fluff for the acts of faith, holy stuff, etc.

Brother Coa wrote:Just how many Sisters are out there in the galaxy?

Lynata told me several thousands, but others say millions.

( Just what I tought in numbers IG >> SoB but SoB >> SM )

It depends on how many lesser orders there are. The major orders account for a few tens of thousands on the upper limit, and there's no indication as to how many minor orders there are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:I think the Sisters need more love in the fluff. They do seem to get the very short, very sharp end of the stick alarmingly often.

The reason is fairly easy to deduce, though. GW loves Space Marines. They need to make Space Marines look good. How do you make them look good? Well, an easy way is to have them defeat an enemy that looks to be strong (let's say Necrons). How do you make the enemy look strong? By having it defeat another faction, that is itself kind of strong. Should the Necrons defeat Imperial Guard? No, the Guard get eaten on a daily basis. 5+ Armor save FTL. I know! The Sisters of Battle! They are almost Space Marines! Look at them; bolters and power armor! That says "strong". So the Necrons beat the Sisters, thus establishing they are "strong". Now the Marines can prove they are the mightiest, by beating the Necrons! BRILLIANT!

Unfortunately, the Sisters get used in this fashion a lot, since the Marines get used a lot.

It actually makes more sense when one realizes that SoB are basically Space Marines without their patently ridiculous plot armor. They have nearly identical equipment, the same pathetic numbers, and the same dubious grasp of strategy and tactics. A few dozen or hundred soldiers, even ones in power armor, trying to fight a properly sized army should always end in horrific failure for the power armored soldiers. Space Marines are only immune to this because they're revolting Mary Sues.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:It depends on how many lesser orders there are. The major orders account for a few tens of thousands on the upper limit, and there's no indication as to how many minor orders there are.

Aye. The 2E Codex gives a few numbers here: We get to know that it took the Orders Militant 2.500 years [M36-M39] to get from 4.000 to 30.000 members, whilst the book also notes that this number has "declined slightly" in recent years, telling us that the major Orders would have somewhere between 3.000 and 4.000 Sisters now ("updated" by the Third War of Armageddon which has pushed the Martyred Lady down to only 300 Battle Sisters). One still has to work with a lot of conjecture, though...

My opinion regarding their overall numbers is currently based primarily on the wording within the 5E core rulebook, where it says that there are "many" minor Orders with about 100 Sisters each. "Many hundred" SoB doesn't sound like a lot, but ties in well with the 2E stuff above. It also explains why the SoB rarely show up in the fluff, even in places where you might totally expect them (such as during attacks on important Cathedrals, for example the Battle of Bladen).

Just to throw in my personal reasoning for the statement.

Lynata wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:It depends on how many lesser orders there are. The major orders account for a few tens of thousands on the upper limit, and there's no indication as to how many minor orders there are.

Aye. The 2E Codex gives a few numbers here: We get to know that it took the Orders Militant 2.500 years [M36-M39] to get from 4.000 to 30.000 members, whilst the book also notes that this number has "declined slightly" in recent years, telling us that the major Orders would have somewhere between 3.000 and 4.000 Sisters now ("updated" by the Third War of Armageddon which has pushed the Martyred Lady down to only 300 Battle Sisters). One still has to work with a lot of conjecture, though...

My opinion regarding their overall numbers is currently based primarily on the wording within the 5E core rulebook, where it says that there are "many" minor Orders with about 100 Sisters each. "Many hundred" SoB doesn't sound like a lot, but ties in well with the 2E stuff above. It also explains why the SoB rarely show up in the fluff, even in places where you might totally expect them (such as during attacks on important Cathedrals, for example the Battle of Bladen).

Just to throw in my personal reasoning for the statement.

That would imply there are actually fewer SoB than Space Marines in the galaxy.

aka_mythos wrote:That would imply there are actually fewer SoB than Space Marines in the galaxy.

Exactly.

Which is why you always see more Marines than SoB showing up in combined arms operations.
Example: Third War of Armageddon, 150(!) Marine companies, 10 companies of Battle Sisters.

There *are* fewer SOB than there are Marines.

There's fewer Vindicare than either of them, and fewer still Callidus, and I think you could probably fit all of the active Moritat into the cargo hold of a Thunderhawk.

However, just because there's less of one thing than there is of another, doesn't make the lesser thing a "more elite" unit, in terms of combat ability or skill... though some of these are certainly more *specialized* than the SM.

Psienesis wrote:There *are* fewer SOB than there are Marines.

Unlikely.

They're positioned anywhere the Ecclesiarchy holds power, which is almost everywhere in the Imperium. It depends on how high you think "many thousands" goes (ten thousand is many, as is a hundred thousand) and how many minor orders there are, as well as the average size of said minor orders.

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:There *are* fewer SOB than there are Marines.

Unlikely.
They're positioned anywhere the Ecclesiarchy holds power, which is almost everywhere in the Imperium. It depends on how high you think "many thousands" goes (ten thousand is many, as is a hundred thousand) and how many minor orders there are, as well as the average size of said minor orders.

Given that the cathedral on Bladen (-> Cityfight Codex) had no Sisters at all - with said cathedral being of sectorwide importance, a place where the Emperor himself has walked, and being the seat of one Cardinal Andrallos - this does not seem the case. Its only defenders were a Cadian regiment, the Cardinal himself and a couple Confessors. Just to name one battle where, yet again, the Sisters were absent. This time concerning a site of major importance to the Ecclesiarchy.

Also, the exact wording was "several thousand" for the major Orders. I'm taking this as a confirmation of the detailed numbers from the 2E Codex. And the average size of a minor Order is ~100, as noted in the 5E rulebook.

Even if all 6 of the Major Orders have 20,000 sisters each (extremely unlikely, Sisters don't exactly grow on trees), that's only 120,000 Sisters.

There's, what, 150 Space Marine Chapters fielding *at least* 1000 troops a piece, with several fielding many times that number? That's at least 150,000 SM, ignoring the fact that many Chapters have far more than 1000 Marines in them.

Psienesis wrote:Even if all 6 of the Major Orders have 20,000 sisters each (extremely unlikely, Sisters don't exactly grow on trees), that's only 120,000 Sisters.

There's, what, 150 Space Marine Chapters fielding *at least* 1000 troops a piece, with several fielding many times that number? That's at least 150,000 SM, ignoring the fact that many Chapters have far more than 1000 Marines in them.

There's ~1000 chapters, and most have less than one thousand marines in them. Sisters of Battle are drawn from the female students at Schola Progenia; assuming a 50/50 split between males and females in the Scholas, and that most (let's say 80%, to be conservative) end up in SoB training, with only 20% going to Stormtrooper or Commissar training, and there is at least one commissar for every Guard regiment, we get something like seven hundred million SoB being trained every few decades. While the Major Orders are ridiculously small, it's a safe bet that there a significant number of minor orders, likely based solely around whatever shrineworld they're garrisoning, each numbering in the dozens or low hundreds.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Sisters of Battle are drawn from the female students at Schola Progenia; assuming a 50/50 split between males and females in the Scholas, and that most (let's say 80%, to be conservative) end up in SoB training, [...]

Actually, that's not true either.

The Schola Progenium isn't just used to train Sisters Militant, Storm Troopers or Commissars. In fact, those three groups of progena form just a tiny fraction of what the scholae churn out, whilst the majority ends up in various office jobs throughout the Imperium.

Most of the Progena will end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum. It is a great honour to pass through the Schola Progenium and those who do are well aware of their privilege.
- from the 2E SoB Codex

In addition to that, keep in mind that Adepta Sororitas isn't synonymous with Sisters of Battle - the latter are only a sub-group of the former, with even higher entrance requirements.

Also, it stands to reason that the relatively small size of the Orders Militant may have political reasons in addition to membership requirements and/or monetary (Astartes-grade equipment isn't cheap, not even for the Ecclesiarchy) ones, with the Ordo Hereticus being wary of the Church's "interpretation" of the Decree Passive. Whilst 30.000 elite warriors may be justifiable in a supporting function, "millions" of them would surely generate quite a bit of unrest as they'd pose a potential threat. That's why the Sisters of Battle focus so much on mobility, travelling throughout the Imperium in the pursuit of their various tasks and assignments instead of just erecting bases everywhere. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to have thousands of "garrisons" capable to overthrow the various local governments in favour of a new Vandire.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:assuming a 50/50 split between males and females in the Scholas, and that most (let's say 80%, to be conservative) end up in SoB training, with only 20% going to Stormtrooper or Commissar training...

I think these are very self serving assumptions. A 50/50 split is beyond generous... the Imperium is insensitive and pragmatic so they don't strike me as being necessarily an affirmative action or quota fulfilling organization. Whatever requirements the Schola Progenia to enter a militant branch have there is a clear emphasis on martial capabilities, which favors men. You also leave out the Adeptus Arbite who are also trained by the Schola Progenia and almost as large a force as Stormtroopers. I tend to think its a much smaller fraction than 80% of females at the Schola Progenia become SoB. Even IF 80% went to receive SoB training, I tend to think few of them would necessarily complete or be accepted by an order of SoB. Given their heighten elite status that puts them above Arbites, Commissars, and Storm Troopers... I'd wager SoB are more like the females at the top of their class.

Lynata wrote:"millions" of them would surely generate quite a bit of unrest as they'd pose a potential threat.

Not really. iirc there are "millions" of worlds in the Imperium. Logically speaking, there ought to be at least millions of Sisters. Given the size of many of the Convents that the Sisterhood maintains, that would still mean that most Imperial worlds don't have a Sororitas presence.


Also...

For what it's worth, the most that we get out of the new WD 'dex numbers-wise is that some of the "Orders Minoris" only have a hundred or so sisters (with the implication being that most are much larger). Also, the timeline mentions that in 799.M41, nine seperate orders curb-stomped the Red Corsairs when the latter launched an attack on the original home of the Sororitas.

While not explicitly stated, the article seems to imply that there are an awful lot of Sisters out there, though they're quite scattered.

Right, a lot of smaller Orders scattered throughout the Imperium's many worlds defending the Ecclesiarchy's interest.

Then six major orders that are tens to hundreds of thousand strong depending on the tides of fate.

Lynata wrote:In addition to that, keep in mind that Adepta Sororitas isn't synonymous with Sisters of Battle - the latter are only a sub-group of the former, with even higher entrance requirements.

Except the non-militant branches recruit from outside the Scholas. The modern version of the Schola Progenium is primarily martial.

Also, it stands to reason that the relatively small size of the Orders Militant may have political reasons in addition to membership requirements and/or monetary (Astartes-grade equipment isn't cheap, not even for the Ecclesiarchy) ones, with the Ordo Hereticus being wary of the Church's "interpretation" of the Decree Passive. Whilst 30.000 elite warriors may be justifiable in a supporting function, "millions" of them would surely generate quite a bit of unrest as they'd pose a potential threat. That's why the Sisters of Battle focus so much on mobility, travelling throughout the Imperium in the pursuit of their various tasks and assignments instead of just erecting bases everywhere. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to have thousands of "garrisons" capable to overthrow the various local governments in favour of a new Vandire.

A total of millions would work out to a few dozen on the more important shrineworlds. Or the rough equivalent of a handful of Leman Russes. The effective value of MEQ forces is always greatly overestimated, and the size of the conventional forces always understated. The entirety of the loyalist Space Marines have a total rough value of one tenth the annual tithe of Armageddon (one Space Marine is worth twelve regular soldiers, there are at most one million space marines (more likely around 900,000, due to most chapters being more or less under strength), and Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million soldiers on an annual basis), for instance.

Excepting the Orders don't number hundreds of thousands, or even tens of thousands...

cf, Order of the Bloody Rose

The entire Order participated in the Therrix Suppression in 085.M41, at the time numbering 12 Battle Sister squads, 6 Retributor squads, 4 Dominion squads, 3 Celestian squads, and 1 Repentia squad. Additional support during the suppression was provided to the Sisters by a delegation of the Adeptus Ministorum. The Sisters were instrumental in scouring the hive of all heretics.4

... unless a Squad has suddenly come to number hundreds or thousands... the entire Order isn't a hundred thousand strong. It'd be hard pressed, at those numbers, to total 20,000 strong.

Being generous and giving a Squad a total of 100 troops each... there's 2600 Sisters in the entirety of the Order of the Bloody Rose, disregarding casualties. A single squad would have to approach 1000 strong, within that deployment, for one of the Orders Militant to get to 20,000 Sisters. While I'm sure some Orders Militant are larger than others, or have a different deployment schema... I don't think they're as big as you think they are.

And, really, there's also nothing wrong with there being fewer Sisters of Battle than there are Space Marines. Sure, the Adeptus Sororitas, in its entirety, probably outnumbers the SM... but the SM are expressly, specifically, entirely a Militant Order.

Psienesis wrote:Excepting the Orders don't number hundreds of thousands, or even tens of thousands...

cf, Order of the Bloody Rose

The entire Order participated in the Therrix Suppression in 085.M41, at the time numbering 12 Battle Sister squads, 6 Retributor squads, 4 Dominion squads, 3 Celestian squads, and 1 Repentia squad. Additional support during the suppression was provided to the Sisters by a delegation of the Adeptus Ministorum. The Sisters were instrumental in scouring the hive of all heretics.4

... unless a Squad has suddenly come to number hundreds or thousands... the entire Order isn't a hundred thousand strong. It'd be hard pressed, at those numbers, to total 20,000 strong.

Being generous and giving a Squad a total of 100 troops each... there's 2600 Sisters in the entirety of the Order of the Bloody Rose, disregarding casualties. A single squad would have to approach 1000 strong, within that deployment, for one of the Orders Militant to get to 20,000 Sisters. While I'm sure some Orders Militant are larger than others, or have a different deployment schema... I don't think they're as big as you think they are.

Huh?

A squad is self-explanatory. It's the basic unit type in 40K. You buy them to fill out the slots in your FO chart.

And having clarified that, the numbers that you provide are at odds with the WD article. While numbers are not provided for any of the major orders, the article does explicitly state that minor orders with only 100 or so sisters are considered to be tiny. Given that, there's no way that the numbers listed above could include the entirety of the Blood Rose unless they'd been severely mauled in a recent string of horrible setbacks.

It said "at the time".

Also:

The order now operates a full preceptory at the Shrine of the Seventeen Martyrs near Malfi in response to brewing religious conflicts in the Drusus Marches.

Further detailed:

Preceptory: An organisation of individual convents with up to 1,000 Sisters, equivalent to an Space Marines Chapter, led by a Canoness Preceptor.

There's... just not that many Battle Sisters, it seems. Which is, IMO, perfectly fine. They're an elite unit, with extremely high requirements for admission.

A squad is self-explanatory. It's the basic unit type in 40K. You buy them to fill out the slots in your FO chart.

That's rather my point. The unit-breakdown I quoted is said to come from Apocalypse, page 123 to be exact. Further, from Codex Witchhunters (3rd Ed):

Saint Aspira, eighteenth Canoness of the Order, led them against the heretic Denescura and liberated almost a hundred worlds from his power with only a thousand warriors3b. The Cloak of St. Aspira, worn by the Canoness in life, remains as a holy relic of the order.

This does not say that these thousand were the entirety of the Order, half of it, a quarter, a tenth, or what... but we are supposed to be impressed that she did so much with so few, which then doesn't really matter if it's a large part or a small part of their total force strength. However, I've not been given an in-universe date of this crusade, though given that this Order was founded in M39, it must be fairly recent.

Psienesis wrote:Also:

The order now operates a full preceptory at the Shrine of the Seventeen Martyrs near Malfi in response to brewing religious conflicts in the Drusus Marches.

Not sure why this is relevant.

Further detailed:

Preceptory: An organisation of individual convents with up to 1,000 Sisters, equivalent to an Space Marines Chapter, led by a Canoness Preceptor.

There's... just not that many Battle Sisters, it seems. Which is, IMO, perfectly fine. They're an elite unit, with extremely high requirements for admission.

See my note above, which is the latest word on the matter (given that it's part of the fluff in the new White Dwarf codex). Further, your quote focuses on Convents and not Orders. Convents are merely the physical edifices that Sisters reside in, whereas the overarching organizational divisions are accomplished along the lines of the various Orders. Or to put it in real world terms, just because you have a group of Jesuits in one monastery doesn't mean that you can't have Jesuits in another monastery elsewhere in the world. There's nothing in your quote that prohibits a single Order from maintaining multiple convents. And given the numbers cited in the quote you provided when compared with the fluff in the WD 'dex, such would almost certainly be required.

Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have. Everything below Prefectory numbers from a couple hundred Sisters to a handful of squads.

And we do know something quite definite about their Convents: There's only 2 of them, for the entire Sororitas. One on Terra, one on Ophelia VII. Each one of these Convents is "home base" for 3 of the Order Militants.

What maintains them from having more Convents is that these two Convents are all that are ever mentioned, anywhere. Sure, there may be 100,000 Convents in the Imperium we've never heard of... but you would think they would have spread the Sisters around a bit, given 6 Orders Militant, if this were an option. They didn't, and these 2 Convents are all that are listed as belonging to them, so I am inclined to believe that these are it.

The Prefectories are their next-largest organizational structure. Unless the Convents are housing exponentially larger forces... there's still not more Sisters than there are Space Marines.

Psienesis wrote:And we do know something quite definite about their Convents: There's only 2 of them, for the entire Sororitas. One on Terra, one on Ophelia VII. Each one of these Convents is "home base" for 3 of the Order Militants.

What maintains them from having more Convents is that these two Convents are all that are ever mentioned, anywhere. Sure, there may be 100,000 Convents in the Imperium we've never heard of... but you would think they would have spread the Sisters around a bit, given 6 Orders Militant, if this were an option. They didn't, and these 2 Convents are all that are listed as belonging to them, so I am inclined to believe that these are it.

The Prefectories are their next-largest organizational structure. Unless the Convents are housing exponentially larger forces... there's still not more Sisters than there are Space Marines.

There's one massive flaw with what you just wrote - your own quoted definition of a preceptory contradicts the idea of there only being two convents.

According to what you quoted, a Preceptory is a group of convents working together under a Canoness with a total population of 1000 Sisters. According to what you just wrote above, there are only two convents - on Ophelia and on Terra. If those two convents were the only convents, then there would be exactly one Preceptory in the entirety of the Sisterhood. And so the lone Preceptory would be synonomous with the Sisterhood, which would in essence make the Preceptory redundant.

Clearly there is more than one Preceptory, which means that there are more than just two Convents.

Further, even if there was only one Preceptory, a basic reading of the definition of a Preceptory that you provided strongly suggests that there are more than two Convents. If there were exactly two Convents in the entire Imperium, then the definition would likely mention that number. Instead, it uses the much more nebulous "individual convents", implying that there is a considerably larger number than just two.

Eumerin wrote:Not really. iirc there are "millions" of worlds in the Imperium. Logically speaking, there ought to be at least millions of Sisters.

Why? Not every single world within the Imperium has an Ecclesiarchal presence, and as proven not even the major Ecclesiarchal sites (the cathedral on Bladen was described as being of sector-wide importance) always have Sisters protecting them.

Eumerin wrote:For what it's worth, the most that we get out of the new WD 'dex numbers-wise is that some of the "Orders Minoris" only have a hundred or so sisters (with the implication being that most are much larger).

It actually sounds like the bit from the 5E rulebook, though I have yet to get my hands on the new WD to study what it offers us in terms of fluff. Do you have a full quote?

Eumerin wrote:Also, the timeline mentions that in 799.M41, nine seperate orders curb-stomped the Red Corsairs when the latter launched an attack on the original home of the Sororitas.

That's not very surprising. An attack on San Leor is an attack on the very core of the Sisterhood, and I'd actually expect way more minor Orders to react to such an affront. Those nine were probably just the ones who got there first.

Melissia wrote:Then six major orders that are tens to hundreds of thousand strong depending on the tides of fate.

I have never heard of such numbers. The 2E Codex explicitly mentions that each of the major Orders on average currently numbers between 3.000 and 4.000 - with the only explicit modification to this being the Third War of Armageddon, which has lowered them even more (now down to 300 for the Martyred Lady). But if you have any additional sources...?

By the way, does the WD Codex mention six major Orders again, or is it still down to three?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Except the non-militant branches recruit from outside the Scholas. The modern version of the Schola Progenium is primarily martial.

The Schola is the only recruitment source for the Adepta Sororitas as a whole - as I quoted from the Codex in my previous post. Every Sister is a fighter (relatively speaking - but they are supposed to be able to defend themselves and their convictions), even the non-militant ones, and in the Schola they all go through a nigh-identical training, occasionally receiving special training depending on the Superior's assessment. It is only when they actually begin the novitiate that their final purpose is determined.
This is also how the Sisters test their young, of course. Depending on how they do in the various courses, the progena selected to become Sororitas will later get assigned to an Order befitting the talents they've shown during their time in the Schola. Unsurprisingly, this kind of selection necessitates that all future novices go through the same kind of basic training for proper comparison.

And this is why it's so easy for individual Sisters to switch from one Order into another, by the way. Note, for example, that Prioress Helena the Virtuous ("SoB" special character) is actually a Famulous, but still ends up leading the Orders militant into battle. Usually it's (crippled) Sisters Militant transferring to one of the non-militant ones, of course, rather than the other way around. I assume it would be rare that a Sister Hospitaller/Famulous/Dialogous/Pronatus/Sabine thinks she is better-suited in the militant Orders ... though not unthinkable.

Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller.
- from Andy Hoare's Liber Sororitas

The effective value of MEQ forces is always greatly overestimated, and the size of the conventional forces always understated. The entirety of the loyalist Space Marines have a total rough value of one tenth the annual tithe of Armageddon (one Space Marine is worth twelve regular soldiers, there are at most one million space marines (more likely around 900,000, due to most chapters being more or less under strength), and Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million soldiers on an annual basis), for instance.

And still the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy and millions of Guardsmen were unable to take on the single Space Wolves Chapter.
Whilst you can always throw millions of Guardsmen at Marines (or Sisters), the problem is that MEQ are (1) easier to transport and (2) able to project a much greater force on a smaller area. It's all highly circumstantial, of course, but even a single company of Marines can do a lot of damage when it's just placed on the right spot. Plus, it's not like the Ecclesiarchy couldn't always add millions of Frateris Militia to their MEQ - so it would make sense to restrict the availability of the latter.

Not saying it is so, mind you. In this instance I'm just theorycrafting additional reasons for why the canon facts are as they are.

Eumerin wrote:There's one massive flaw with what you just wrote - your own quoted definition of a preceptory contradicts the idea of there only being two convents.

This is actually a small retcon "issue". There's the two primary convents, Terra and Ophelia VII - but in addition to that, over the years it has become customary to call every Sororitas base a convent (equivalent to a Marine monastery), regardless of size or how long it exists.

That said, the "hierarchy" in the WD Codex places "Order" straight above Preceptory, so you'd still end up with the fact that 1.000 Sisters is the largest non-entirety organizational unit of one of the few major Orders (of which there are 3 or 6, depending on how you want to interpret the 5E rulebook snippet).

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Yeah, they are really small. What's countless billions of solders formed into millions of Regiments anyway

On the discussion what you have now...
Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete. Let's just say that they outnumber the Marines, as they are leading the Imperial Creed crusades of Faith. Adn you can't lead a crusade with several hundred solders.

Lynata wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Except the non-militant branches recruit from outside the Scholas. The modern version of the Schola Progenium is primarily martial.

The Schola is the only recruitment source for the Adepta Sororitas as a whole - as I quoted from the Codex in my previous post. Every Sister is a fighter (relatively speaking - but they are supposed to be able to defend themselves and their convictions), even the non-militant ones, and in the Schola they all go through a nigh-identical training, occasionally receiving special training depending on the Superior's assessment. It is only when they actually begin the novitiate that their final purpose is determined.

You quoted the 2e codex. Modern fluff has the non-militant orders drawing from local populations, and the Schola Progenia being primarily military institutions.

Can we not conclude that the SoB are simply a neglected faction in dire need of some love and better fluff? Clarification at the very least...

Personally, I love the gals and can't wait for them to go plastic someday. I also think that they should have much larger numbers than what is being named... I mean, they're the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy; the strongest branch of government in the Imperium after the Administratium and Munitorium, they should have some real power-projection!

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Yeah, they are really small. What's countless billions of solders formed into millions of Regiments anyway

The difference being, of course, that the Imperial Guard has countless regiments, but the Orders Militant have only 3 or 6 Orders which are actually capable of fielding a Prefectory.

Brother Coa wrote:On the discussion what you have now... Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete. Let's just say that they outnumber the Marines, as they are leading the Imperial Creed crusades of Faith. Adn you can't lead a crusade with several hundred solders.

Older canon still applies as long as it is not contradicted by newer stuff - and the Crusades/Wars of Faith have already been mentioned back in the 2E 'dex, meaning already factored into the equation.

Even if you go by the 5E rulebook you are left with "a few thousand" Sisters for the major Orders and ~100 for the "many" minor ones. This isn't contradicting the 2E stuff, it's reaffirming it. Wars of Faith simply don't happen all that often, and the vast majority of Crusades has no involvement by the Orders Militant at all (don't let the term fool you).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:You quoted the 2e codex. Modern fluff has the non-militant orders drawing from local populations, and the Schola Progenia being primarily military institutions.

And what GW studio material exactly is that from?

The Orders Militant do have some real power projection alright - just not everywhere at the same time. They are not the Frateris Templar, which the Ecclesiarchy had to give up specifically because of the military might they posed.

I much prefer a "small" elite cadre of highly mobile special forces rather than millions of garrisoned Guardsmen in power armour, and the books seem to agree.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Because it offers us a concrete number to work from. There's 1000 Sisters in this Prefectory, and a Prefectory is the second-largest organizational structure the Orders Militant have.

The Guard's second largest organizational structure is the Regiment, which often have only a thousand to several thousand soldiers-- therefor the Imperial Guard must also be small.

Yeah, they are really small. What's countless billions of solders formed into millions of Regiments anyway

On the discussion what you have now...
Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete. Let's just say that they outnumber the Marines, as they are leading the Imperial Creed crusades of Faith. Adn you can't lead a crusade with several hundred solders.

1)The BT make crusades with 50 marines sometimes.
2)You use id4chan as a source. Dictating what other people use as a source is hypocritical of you.

Regardless, how many minor orders there are is not actually stated. Almost no fluff exists regarding minor orders.

Thats obviously GW's standard open for allowing players to invent their own... which is to say its purposefully vague.

There's one massive flaw with what you just wrote - your own quoted definition of a preceptory contradicts the idea of there only being two convents.

If you can find more than the Convent Prioris on Terra or the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII, I'm all ears.

It goes like this, in order from smallest to largest units:

Mission-> Commandery-> Preceptory-> Order

The two Convents house 3 Orders a piece. I'm not certain why the definition of Preceptory contains mention of containing convents, since there's only two mentioned by name, unless the usage of the term (in this instance) is not a reference to their "official Convents" but, rather, "a group of nuns... with guns".

Don't use any material from old 2'nd and 3'rd edition codexes for Sisters as new will get out soon and probably make fluff and rules of the former ones obsolete.

When that book comes out, I will use that book. Until then...

Again, though, I don't care if there are more or less Sisters than there are Space Marines. It simply makes more sense to me that there be more SM than there are Sisters, because the SM is a broadly-skilled shock trooper/Heavy Infantry unit designed to be deployed in an extremely wide range of battlefields against a staggering array of enemies.

The Sisters of Battle are exceptional women of unimpeachable faith and devotion to the Emperor and His Imperium. No special bio-constructs, no added super-organs, no hypno-indoctrination. Trained to deal with a wide-range of enemies in specific settings. While highly-trained, far more specialized than the Marines. Also, arguably more-exceptional than even those who survive the training and surgeries that make boys into Space Marines. In the grim darkness of the 41st millennia, pure, true faith is probably harder to find than a friendly Tyranid.

Just to throw in some more old fluff in the form of actual citations, in the hopes of contributing to eliminating the confusion:

"All of the Orders of the Sisterhood are divided between the two principle worlds of Earth and Ophelia VII. The Adepta Sororitas have an extensive Convent on each of these planets which are home to members of all Orders. For most of the time, members of the Sisterhood will not be occupying their Convent but are dispatched across the Imperium in accordance with their various duties. However, the Convent still bustles with new recruits and organisational staff, even when most of its inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith or employed in some other major effort.

[...]

When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas these warriors were split between the Convents of Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of’ the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas’ ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.

Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI ( the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits availble and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."
- 2E C:SoB

+

"As numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of thousand warriors to many thousands, the subsidiary convents began to take on an importance all their own. These small, scattered bases often proved ideal for reacting to requests for assistance from the Ordo Hereticus, and so over time became independent of the Orders that had founded them, establishing their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles. Though the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris, became especially useful in the frequent purity sweeps and pogroms instituted by the Witch Hunters."
- 3E C:WH

+

"There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters. An Order's warriors rarely fight as a single unit, but instead are commonly spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones. Nevertheless, the Sisters of Battle rank amongst the Imperium's most trusted defenders, for their unshakeable faith can overcome all but the most terrible foes."
- 5E Rulebook

(it should be noted that the concept of Minor Orders was already part of the 2E Codex - before anyone is making the false assumption that they would falsify its numbers)

Psienesis wrote:I'm not certain why the definition of Preceptory contains mention of containing convents

I'm going to quickly narrate what I'm doing right now.

goto Google.com
"define:convent"
enter
Result:

con·vent/ˈkänvent/Noun
1. A Christian community under monastic vows, esp. one of nuns.
2. A school, esp. one for girls, run by such a community

Click on "merriam-webster"
Result:

a local community or house of a religious order or congregation; especially : an establishment of nuns

A local establishment of Sisters housed in a specific, permanent place is a convent.

Yes, I know what a convent is in real life. What WH40k considers a Convent, however, seems to be much different, as the nuns in our world don't strap on armor and go off fighting wars. Or even train to do such. Also, it seems, nuns of our world can be absolutely faithless, and yet remain in the service. Not so with the Sororitas.

Again, I think the use of "convents" in the definition of "Prefectory", is a misuse of the word within the setting, and is simply meant to say "when Sisters of Battle from a number of different holy sites gather, they form a Prefectory, numbering up to 1000 Sisters".

Otherwise, the Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII can't possibly hold as many sisters as they are said to, as a Prefectory only holds 1000 Sisters, and is made up of lots of Convents... of which there are 2. Unless, of course and again, their use of the word in this meaning is not a reference to the named Convents in the setting, but simply a short-hand reference to a gang of nuns.

Psienesis wrote:Yes, I know what a convent is in real life. What WH40k considers a Convent, however, seems to be much different

No it isn't.

The location Cain visited in the fifth book was a convent.

The problem with this "Chaos s,o,b" is that people don't understand that only 1 Sister ever fall to Chaos, ever.

And now I read some Warhammer fan comic were Space Wolves help Sister to fight against Chaos Marines of Slaanesh. Then in one moment Chaos Lord converted Cannones into Slaanesh minion in just few seconds?

If Cannones falls that fast then other Sisters will just fall faster.
http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/02/wolf-sister.html

Brother Coa wrote:The problem with this "Chaos s,o,b" is that people don't understand that only 1 Sister ever fall to Chaos, ever.

And now I read some Warhammer fan comic were Space Wolves help Sister to fight against Chaos Marines of Slaanesh. Then in one moment Chaos Lord converted Cannones into Slaanesh minion in just few seconds?

If Cannones falls that fast then other Sisters will just fall faster.
http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/02/wolf-sister.html

Some very nice artwork and could be a fun read but not sure many people will accept it as definative

I really think a Chaos SoB is more the stuff of a Lost and the Damned special character than something of a concept for a new faction or even a chaos unit.

I only have one SoB model, I got it when GW made a mistake with my order and they sent me a bunch of misc. stuff to make it up to me... I converted it to be the champion of my slanneshi squad.

I think those two ideas are really as far as you can take a Chaos SoB concept while staying true to the fluff.

Psienesis wrote:Again, I think the use of "convents" in the definition of "Prefectory", is a misuse of the word within the setting, and is simply meant to say "when Sisters of Battle from a number of different holy sites gather, they form a Prefectory, numbering up to 1000 Sisters".

It's been like this in the 2E Codex, but the meaning of the term "convent" changed in the Witch Hunters Codex (taking on the meaning of any Sororitas base rather than just the two primary ones). Thus, the confusion is understandable, but we can only adapt to how GW uses the term...

Mr Morden wrote:Some very nice artwork and could be a fun read but not sure many people will accept it as definative

Couldn't have said it better - I really like the drawing style (minus those dreaded heels on the Sisters) though.

But really, of all Chapters, Space Wolves allying with SoB? As far as I recall, those two armies have fought against each other in the past, and still have some scores to settle.
Sounds a lot like wishful thinking for giving that Wolf Marine a chick for a sidekick (that cover...). Just another way of how the Sisters are abused - though this time at least it's just fanwork.

PS: Every time Cain gets mentioned in relation to Sororitas fluff, the Emperor kills a kitten.

As said before - there are two main options I feel:

1. A Chaos Champion taunting and mocking the Imperium by garbing his followers in armour resembling the SOB.

2. Tainted or corupted SOB

I would go with 1 - could have some good fluff


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Again, I think the use of "convents" in the definition of "Prefectory", is a misuse of the word within the setting, and is simply meant to say "when Sisters of Battle from a number of different holy sites gather, they form a Prefectory, numbering up to 1000 Sisters".

It's been like this in the 2E Codex, but the meaning of the term "convent" changed in the Witch Hunters Codex (taking on the meaning of any Sororitas base rather than just the two primary ones). Thus, the confusion is understandable, but we can only adapt to how GW uses the term...

Mr Morden wrote:Some very nice artwork and could be a fun read but not sure many people will accept it as definative

Couldn't have said it better - I really like the drawing style (minus those dreaded heels on the Sisters) though.

But really, of all Chapters, Space Wolves allying with SoB? As far as I recall, those two armies have fought against each other in the past, and still have some scores to settle.
Sounds a lot like wishful thinking for giving that Wolf Marine a chick for a sidekick (that cover...). Just another way of how the Sisters are abused - though this time at least it's just fanwork.

PS: Every time Cain gets mentioned in relation to Sororitas fluff, the Emperor kills a kitten.

Just read the comic through - some lovely artwork really....... also interesting idea re the brother / sister relationship in both senses (blood and their organisational termonology) as I am not sure how many SOB have come from Fenris before . I think its normally off limits to other organisations for recruitment but perhaps not....will certianly check it out now to see how the story evolves.

re allies - well they get a frosty reception from the cannoness - as in we don't need you and Space Wolves will fight alongside Dark Angels if they have to............

re Cain - we have some good discussions before over at FFG under my other forum name..........Da Boss

the SOB in Duty Calls are very much those of the standard fluff in all ways as far as I can tell - I think a certain Sister in one of the other novels colours your perception of their depicition in the novels a little bit?

Mr Morden wrote:I am not sure how many SOB have come from Fenris before

Apparently, at least three entire Orders of Sisters Militant - which went to Fenris in reaction to the Wolves having, without warning, shot down some ships carrying Ecclesiarchy clerics with a mission of peaceful investigation into the Chapter's rites. Of course the Sisters, just like the Imperial Navy and the Guard and pretty much anyone else who ever dared to challenge the Wolves, don't stand a chance and it takes the SW just three weeks to wipe the floor with them.
Hence my suspicion that the Sisterhood would regard the SW with even less amiability than other Marine Chapters, and that's got to mean something.

Mr Morden wrote:re Cain - we have some good discussions before over at FFG under my other forum name..........Da Boss

Hmm, I vaguely recall the name ... it's been some time.

Mr Morden wrote:the SOB in Duty Calls are very much those of the standard fluff in all ways as far as I can tell - I think a certain Sister in one of the other novels colours your perception of their depicition in the novels a little bit?

The one that gets pulled every single time as an "example" when the question of Sororitas chastity pops up, yeah. I haven't heard anything about that other book.

It's not just this aspect, though. The apparently rather easy corruptability (which is in direct contrast to what the Codex says) is another, and this gets featured far more often ... even in those few novels that at least end up displaying the personality of the Sisters in a manner that is consistent with what GW has written. I have to say that these cases are easier to stomach, though, for at those still preserve the unique aspect of what it means to be a Sororitas - in comparison to robbing them of their identity and their "grimdark" by making them act just like any other human.
That's just not how such high degrees of indoctrination and religious zeal work. The SoB are not Sunday School Girls in power armour.

Oh well. At least I apparently don't have to accept such things as overriding what GW actually wrote. :S

Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:I am not sure how many SOB have come from Fenris before

Apparently, at least three entire Orders of Sisters Militant - which went to Fenris in reaction to the Wolves having, without warning, shot down some ships carrying Ecclesiarchy clerics with a mission of peaceful investigation into the Chapter's rites. Of course the Sisters, just like the Imperial Navy and the Guard and pretty much anyone else who ever dared to challenge the Wolves, don't stand a chance and it takes the SW just three weeks to wipe the floor with them.
Hence my suspicion that the Sisterhood would regard the SW with even less amiability than other Marine Chapters, and that's got to mean something.

Ah not gone there - but actually come from there - the comic seems to be saying that one of the SOB is actually from Fenris and the sister of the Space Wolf who he evidently thought killed in his youth...........

Like I said - the SOB don't welcome the Wolves but are in the middle of a firefight so the Chaos Heretics and Dameons take priority otherwise theya re likely to be even more unfriendly - like Space Wolves and Dark Angels meeting.

Out of interest which codex (or book) is the visit to Fenris by the Sisters?

Mr Morden wrote:Out of interest which codex (or book) is the visit to Fenris by the Sisters?

Codex Space Wolves - note that I am relying on people talking about it, I don't have it myself. It seems to be from around 2009 or so, at least judging from the various discussions I stumbled upon on google (just look for "Space Wolves" and "three orders").
5E Codex, page 19?

And sorry, misunderstood that part @ connection between Sororitas and Fenris.

That said, I'd think that Fenris is completely independent from the Ecclesiarchy (see that "incident" in the Codex) and as such also excluded from the Schola Progenium network, the only source of new recruits for the Adepta Sororitas.

Hmm interesting - pulled out the Codex - its ultra vague (Shockingly!)

886.M41 - as you say the Space Wolves fire on a Ecclesiarchy ship sent to inspect them. A year later three orders enter their space "in force" before withdrawing three weeks later...

no mention if they even make planetfall or suffer casulties - although it is described as a war........

I had thought the same re Fenris (like most Astartes worlds) was off limits for recruitment by other organisations but it could be an interesting story as the SOB in question does not recognise him either.

Maybe the SOB on Fenris took some of the tribes girls back with them! (doubt it but seen worse fluff)

Mr Morden wrote:Maybe the SOB on Fenris took some of the tribes girls back with them! (doubt it but seen worse fluff)

Or the writer just took some "artistic license" - if actual BL novel authors are allowed to do so, certainly a fan can, too.
The focus is on "telling a good story", and from that perspective, this twist is a neat idea - even if it isn't consistent with the actual background of the setting.

It's also possible he simply didn't know. This bit about Ecclesiarchy vs SW may be written in his own Codex, but he'd certainly not be the first one to miss such minor details. And the part about how Sisters feel about Astartes in general is only printed in SoB Codices, just like the information on where the SoB actually get "new girls" from.

By the way, something cute from the same artist who has drawn the commissioned comic:
http://nachomon.deviantart.com/art/Chibi-Ultramarine-and-Sisters-215315276

Thanks for the link - fun

Of course the comic could be set before the short war as its pretty recent in 40K history so there is less "tension".

Apparently, those Sisters that don't come from the Scholam system tend to come from Feral Worlds. I guess the near-constant fight for survival serves them well and reinforces their faith.

With specific regards to Fenris... well, it's not like they're using their women for Space Marine candidates. Sending a few off to do other things in the Imperium might, overall, be better for their tribe-units. Sure, they lose potential breeding partners, but it's less mouths to feed.

Psienesis wrote:Apparently, those Sisters that don't come from the Scholam system tend to come from Feral Worlds. I guess the near-constant fight for survival serves them well and reinforces their faith.

Nah, GW makes it very clear that the Schola is the only source of new recruits. Has been like this in every single Codex, even including the latest WD one: "Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth by the Schola Progenium [...]"

Which is understandable - given the amount of indoctrination and training (both martial as well as scholarly) they receive there. One can't just drop some wild youth off at a convent door and expect them to integrate with the community. Especially given how most Feral World populations follow rather weird variations of the Creed that would only remotely connect to the uniform teachings of the Sororitas, if at all.

@Mr. Morden: True, the time difference might be one explanation, though there's still the issue of the Ecclesiarchy having no hold over what happens on Astartes worlds. I'd just "call the spade a spade", as the idiom goes, and enjoy it for the story or the drawings it delivers (provided one doesn't mind the Sororitas being presented like a bunch of incompetent girls who can't get anything done without Marine assistance).

Speaking of "weird variations of the Imperial Creed"... they SOB are apparently now using Death Cult Assassins.

Also, I mis-phrased the bit about Feral Worlders and the Scholam. A number of Imperial martyrs come from Feral Worlds, and it would appear that their children are, indeed, sent to the Scholams.

Rather than being an exception to the Scholam, they are, instead, an exception to the more-usual Imperial/Shrine World origins of such students.

Like with many ideas, the cooler is gets, the more people with disagree. I have to say that I wouldn't have a problem with a counts as Wtichhunters or Chaos Space Marine army, providing it was well done. Even a Slannesh based army, which would have sexuality as the prime concept wouldn't bother me providing it wasn't a green-stuff boobs on models affair.

Well, the OP's original question seemed to be "My wife wants to make Chaos SOB. How can she do this and not be entirely chewed out by TFGs?"

... and so we provided some examples of Sister(s) who have Fallen, sources, and so forth.

If the OP didn't care to keep it fluff-friendly... well, why ask? Just paint it, field it, and keep rollin'.

I know that. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be frowned upon, I'm simply stating that from my perspective, a well done Chaos Sisters of Battle army would be ok, also providing that the fluff is ok. They don't have to be former Sisters of Battle. They could simply be a Chaos warband that only recruits women, LED by a former Sister of Battle or some other warlord in a mockery of their Imperial counterparts.

In that case I will make Imperial Plague Marines...

Which would be what, exactly? Chaos Marines? Yeah, not that contentious I have to admit.

Chaos Plague Marines yes - but with faith in the God Emperor and the scourges of Mankind enemies. And anti-chaos fighters to.

Psienesis wrote:Speaking of "weird variations of the Imperial Creed"... they SOB are apparently now using Death Cult Assassins.

Those (just like the Confessors and Crusaders) are part of the Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves - potentially seconded to, but not part of the Adepta Sororitas.

Though I wouldn't deem it impossible that a Canoness may have contacts of her own regarding such things ... but even then they'd remain an ally rather than members.

Psienesis wrote:Rather than being an exception to the Scholam, they are, instead, an exception to the more-usual Imperial/Shrine World origins of such students.

Ahh, gotcha. Yeah, that seems likely.

Psienesis wrote:If the OP didn't care to keep it fluff-friendly... well, why ask? Just paint it, field it, and keep rollin'.

+1

Plus, it's not even like the fluff gives a definite answer here - it comes down to whether one considers licensed works as able to retcon GW canon or not, so you'd still end up with three factions/opinions here (including those that don't care anyways). *shrug*
The last decision lies, as always, with the player who actually owns the army. It's his (well, in this case, her) thing.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos Plague Marines yes - but with faith in the God Emperor and the scourges of Mankind enemies. And anti-chaos fighters to.

Now you're just taking the mick.

Exactly
If we can have Chaos s,o,b then we can also have Imperial Plague Marines who fight for the Emperor.
And we can also have living Necrons ( I mean literally living, with flesh and blood not metal ).

Not exactly. Chaos Sisters of Battle aren't exactly out of the realm of possibility. There's some examples of Chaos Sisters in the fluff, in varying forms. Imperial Plague Marines is a direct contradiction. You can't be dedicated to Nurgle and The Emperor.

iproxtaco wrote:Not exactly. Chaos Sisters of Battle aren't exactly out of the realm of possibility. There's some examples of Chaos Sisters in the fluff, in varying forms. Imperial Plague Marines is a direct contradiction. You can't be dedicated to Nurgle and The Emperor.

At least plague sisters would be in better taste than slaaneshi sisters.

iproxtaco wrote:There's some examples of Chaos Sisters in the fluff, in varying forms.

And what example is that beside that one Sister who fall to Chaos?
If Chaos kill them then do some *things* to their bodies after death is quite different than falling to Chaos.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:There's some examples of Chaos Sisters in the fluff, in varying forms.

And what example is that beside that one Sister who fall to Chaos?
If Chaos kill them then do some *things* to their bodies after death is quite different than falling to Chaos.

That's why I said varying forms. Read what people reply to you more thoroughly. Just read the thread for said numerous examples. The mind-controlled Sisters in a Dan Abnett book spring to mind.

Mind-control is not the same thing as falling to Chaos.

I never said it was. You're making things up, again. Remember, read what people write more thoroughly, then you wont miss things like me saying "varying forms".

You just quoted mind control from Dan Abnet books....


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iproxtaco wrote:
That's why I said varying forms. Read what people reply to you more thoroughly. Just read the thread for said numerous examples. The mind-controlled Sisters in a Dan Abnett book spring to mind.

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Brother Coa wrote:You just quoted mind control from Dan Abnet books....


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iproxtaco wrote:
That's why I said varying forms. Read what people reply to you more thoroughly. Just read the thread for said numerous examples. The mind-controlled Sisters in a Dan Abnett book spring to mind.

And I never said you implemented it. Read my post for once...

I never quoted. The incident is the one that I remember from this thread. I believe several Sisters were mind-controlled by a minion of Chaos to do it's bidding. There you go, Chaos Sisters, of a different variety. I'm also confused by why said I was accusing you of implementing something.

Still.....Mind-control is not the same thing as falling to Chaos. I bet that Imperium Psykers can mind control Chaos Space Marines. What about that then?

There's one Sister that has fallen to Chaos according to GW.

According to BL, Sisters fall to Chaos or get mind-controlled just about every Tuesday (apart from other little deviations from the studio material such as gender division in the Scholae).

It comes down to what kind of fluff - if any - one has chosen to follow. No reason to argue, just an important detail to keep in mind for avoiding confusion.

I know it isn't. Varying forms Coa, varying forms.
Not sure what an Imperial Psyker controlling some Chaos Marines has to do with it. Care to elaborate?

If SoB mind controlled = fall to Chaos then Chaos Space Marines mind controlled = fall to Imperial Creed.

Therefore - mind control is not = falling to dark powers.

The only thing I can do is repeat what I've said three times now.

I know it isn't. Varying forms Coa, varying forms.

And again, not sure what an Imperial Psyker controlling some Chaos Marines has to do with it. Care to elaborate?

Do I need to write down 3 times this: If SoB mind controlled = fall to Chaos then Chaos Space Marines mind controlled = fall to Imperial Creed.


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And I think it's difference of language that get mixed up. I think for every post you said 3 times that you said: "that is correct".

Brother Coa wrote:Do I need to write down 3 times this: If SoB mind controlled = fall to Chaos then Chaos Space Marines mind controlled = fall to Imperial Creed.


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And I think it's difference of language that get mixed up. I think for every post you said 3 times that you said: "that is correct".

I'm not saying that those Sisters being mind controlled was the same thing as the Sister that fell to Chaos. Simply put, it's another way to represent Chaos Sisters of Battle, following established fluff. So no, a Chaos Marine being mind controlled does not mean he has fallen to the Imperial Creed, because it's not his choice.
That's what I meant when I said "I know it isn't" three times to you're post.

Oh.....that's what you tough? I tough totally different thing....silly me