I've been thinking about this for a while now, Since cadians are supposed to be some of the best trianed, most disciplined IG troops drilled from a young age in war why isn't a chapter formed to help defend the cadian gate using cadian citizens and recruits? I was thinking of making a small marine army using this as the background especially focused on deffensive tactics. Do any of you know of any reasons this wouldn't be possible/acceptable?

Cheers, Lappie

If you like it - its valid

I think that the Imperium is quite happy with the calibre of the Guard / pdf on Cadia as is. To be fair, there are many many planets who can provide as suitable recruits to be transformed into Astartes. Many of the known chapters prefer more primative and feral populations ot recruit from -few seem to recruit from the mainstream Imperial worlds. Might be to keep the mystic as well as provide certain traits.

but if you like the idea - write and model it up

It's not in fluff, but the premise is perfectly valid in my opinion. A defensive marine chapter painted up in the Cadian colors sounds great, maybe you could have scouts wielding lasguns as a parallel to the youth regiments.

As I recall several chapters guard the Eye of Terror. Not Cadia specifically, but these would be close by if the situation is ever desperate enough. The group is known as the Astartes Praeses, twenty chapters assigned to guard the regions surrounding the Eye of Terror. Out of the twenty ten names are known (one gone renegade) and one chapter is said to have been destroyed.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astartes_Praeses

Because you would need to take resources away from somewhere to make the chapter, and cadia has bigger problems. Who would you take away to make the chapter? Every man, women, child, dog and pile of lint is busy defending cadia.

Spetulhu wrote:As I recall several chapters guard the Eye of Terror. Not Cadia specifically, but these would be close by if the situation is ever desperate enough. The group is known as the Astartes Praeses, twenty chapters assigned to guard the regions surrounding the Eye of Terror. Out of the twenty ten names are known (one gone renegade) and one chapter is said to have been destroyed.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astartes_Praeses

I knew that there were chapters whose soul purpose was guarding the eye but what I was asking if there was any reason why a new chapter couldn't be formed from cadians. I just thought it's be an interesting background for a marine chapter.

On that note what are the main colours for cadian PDF forces? I know the cadian 8th colours are green and beige/khaki.

The same I would assume.

It's green and khaki. Youth regiments have a white strip down the helmet.

I don't see why Space Marines would go looking at Cadia for recruitment. Generally, young feral tribesmen fit their aspirant requirments more than boy soldiers.

Same happens with Catachan. If it is the deadliest world in the Imperium why don't use it to recruit aspirants?

Lappie wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:As I recall several chapters guard the Eye of Terror. Not Cadia specifically, but these would be close by if the situation is ever desperate enough. The group is known as the Astartes Praeses, twenty chapters assigned to guard the regions surrounding the Eye of Terror. Out of the twenty ten names are known (one gone renegade) and one chapter is said to have been destroyed.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astartes_Praeses

I knew that there were chapters whose sole purpose was guarding the Eye but what I was asking if there was any reason why a new Chapter couldn't be formed from Cadians. I just thought it's be an interesting background for a Marine Chapter.

As was mentioned, taking recruits from Cadia is a no-no. The amount of populace they'd have to potentially draw away just to get started and have recruits is silly and would damage the Cadians overall.

More likely than not, we'll see something soon about the Cadians having some kind of 'resistance' to genetic tampering which explains the low occurrence of mutations among their births, despite proximity to the Eye of Terror.

On that note what are the main colours for cadian PDF forces? I know the Cadian 8th colours are green and beige/khaki.

Cadian "PDF" does not exist. They have what is called the "Interior Guard", which are Cadian Shock regiments rotated in and out to stand watch over the homeworld. The exact number of regiments on Cadia isn't mentioned.

The green and khaki uniform thing is kind of a misnomer. There is no 'set' uniform color for Cadia, with them having different uniforms for different climates. Green and khaki is the 'temperate' uniform, which you normally would see on campaigns or on the Interior Guard in the midrange climes of Cadia. You might see other regiments of the Interior Guard wearing urban puzzle camo, arctic camo, things like that.

The Ultramarines are quite successful in recruiting from their own civilized worlds. If I'm not mistaken, the Crimson Fists do the same. Cadia would be a good place to recruit from if the above two examples are anything to go by.

The Ultramarines recruit from an entire 'empire', and it's a rather idyllic one at that. There's very little war, outside of Ork raiders or the occasional Tyranid Hive Fleet getting hungry.

Crimson Fists, again, were recruiting from a rather idyllic world where they didn't need to worry about maintaining standing armies on an everyday basis.

Saying "Ultramarines did it!" isn't exactly the best example, since the situations are dramatically different.

Saying that feral tribesmen fit better that civilized people isn't wholly accurate, as the two examples provided show, that was what I was really replying to. Obviously there are other reasons as to why Cadia may not be a good place, but it isn't the quality of the populace that's holding them back.

Kanluwen wrote:
Cadian "PDF" does not exist. They have what is called the "Interior Guard", which are Cadian Shock regiments rotated in and out to stand watch over the homeworld. The exact number of regiments on Cadia isn't mentioned.

I know they are called the interior guard, I said PDF to simplify things incase not everyone knew. From what I read they do function as a PDF and the best are selected to be shock troops, never heard of it being a rotational thing since when you go off somewhere on crusade or to fight some other campaign there's little chance you'll end up coming home again.

Lappie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Cadian "PDF" does not exist. They have what is called the "Interior Guard", which are Cadian Shock regiments rotated in and out to stand watch over the homeworld. The exact number of regiments on Cadia isn't mentioned.

I know they are called the interior guard, I said PDF to simplify things incase not everyone knew. From what I read they do function as a PDF and the best are selected to be shock troops, never heard of it being a rotational thing since when you go off somewhere on crusade or to fight some other campaign there's little chance you'll end up coming home again.

Then you read wrong, because the few pieces on the Interior Guard talks about how regiments are rotated by a selection process which isn't described.

You're right about the "Crusade" and campaign bit making it difficult, but more likely than not the selection process is done based on what regiments suffer heavy casualties on campaign.

"The best" of Cadians aren't selected to be Shock Troops. Every Cadian soldier is a Shock Troop. "The best" are selected to be Kasrkin.

Like I have to keep saying though: Don't say PDF when referring to the Interior Guard. The acronym PDF refers to a specific form of Imperial military organization. They are, by and large, a mix of professional and volunteer soldiers trained to a bare minimum when compared with the Imperial Guard(and a laughable standard when compared with professional soldiery like the Cadians) and have been equipped to deal with small raiding parties, insurgents, and cells of heretics.
The Interior Guard is full-on Imperial Guard regiments, through and through, armed and equipped like any force leading an assault on an enemy held world.

the Marine chapter which guards the Cadian Gate is the GKs.

Deamons are always pouring out so the GKs keep a permant garrison on several of the worlds in the area. it is the front line in the war against chaos.

Recruitment and training

As a fortress world, most of the population of Cadia is under arms, and most aspire to join the ranks of the Imperial Guard or the Cadian Interior Guard, Cadia's PDF. Cadia's militarization is such that most children learn military doctrine before they can walk, inspiring maxims such as: "any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by the age of 10 was born on the wrong planet" and "If the ammo ain't live, this ain't no Cadian practice".

Cadian youth begin training in the Youth Armies, and eventually are inducted into the Whiteshields, where they fight alongside Cadian regiments and gain vital experience through actual combat. The best and most promising of the Youth Army cadets are selected for special training, eventually joining the elite Kasrkin.

Describes them as Cadia's PDF right there.


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Cadian Shock Troops

Cadia's planetary defence forces are known as the Interior Guard. It is from this guard that the Imperium draws the famed Cadian Shock Troopers regiments, widely regarded as the best soldiers in the Imperium short of the superhuman Space Marines.

Also there.

Lappie wrote:

Recruitment and training

As a fortress world, most of the population of Cadia is under arms, and most aspire to join the ranks of the Imperial Guard or the Cadian Interior Guard, Cadia's PDF. Cadia's militarization is such that most children learn military doctrine before they can walk, inspiring maxims such as: "any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by the age of 10 was born on the wrong planet" and "If the ammo ain't live, this ain't no Cadian practice".

Cadian youth begin training in the Youth Armies, and eventually are inducted into the Whiteshields, where they fight alongside Cadian regiments and gain vital experience through actual combat. The best and most promising of the Youth Army cadets are selected for special training, eventually joining the elite Kasrkin.

Describes them as Cadia's PDF right there.

Because they are Cadia's planetary defense force.

That doesn't "make them PDF" in the general sense. This isn't really complex to understand.
You tried using the term interchangeably. It's not. Interior Guard are not PDF, except in the sense that they defend the planet. They are equipped, as standard, for the Imperial Guard.

Cadian Shock Troops

Cadia's planetary defence forces are known as the Interior Guard. It is from this guard that the Imperium draws the famed Cadian Shock Troopers regiments, widely regarded as the best soldiers in the Imperium short of the superhuman Space Marines.

Also there.

There's nothing that says the Imperium wouldn't found a Chapter based on Cadia. It makes sense that, of the twenty that guard the Cadian Gate, at least one would have a fortress there, and probably one or two might recruit from there.

Recruitment for a SM Chapter wouldn't impact the Cadian population in the slightest. There are what, 1000 Marines in a Chapter, give or take? Let's say only one in ten prospects from a normal world will pass muster... Not everyone who fails dies (it's been stated in several places that those who fail and survive become Chapter serfs... no reason they can't be sent back to Cadia as potential Kasrkin). But lets assume a 75% casualty rate, just to be grimdark. That's 10,000 people recruited to make one Chapter, with 2,500 surviving and of those 1,000 making the cut. Given that a Chapter doesn't recruit all 1000 Marines every single year (that's what happens when Chapters are wiped out) they'd probably only need to recruit 100 or so every year to fill battle losses. So, that's 1000 people being recruited per annum.

Compare that with how many get drafted into the Interior Guard alone, never mind how many end up in the IG proper (Cadia contributes hundreds, if not thousands of regiments to the IG) and you see that Space Marine recruitment isn't even big enough to warrant being called a drop in the bucket.

So there's no plausible reason why you can't create a Cadian-based Chapter of Marines. Especially since GW has not explicitly stated that there are no SM Chapters drawing from Cadia. After all, if GW has not said "it never happens" then there is plenty of room to say "it might very well happen".

Surely you're generalising. It depends on the planet which the PDF is from. Planets that are well equipped and attacked more often have much better PDF than ones that never see any action apart from the odd uprising.

When the vast majority is what Kanluwen described, then yeah, you can generalize.

squidhills wrote:There's nothing that says the Imperium wouldn't found a Chapter based on Cadia. It makes sense that, of the twenty that guard the Cadian Gate, at least one would have a fortress there, and probably one or two might recruit from there.

Recruitment for a SM Chapter wouldn't impact the Cadian population in the slightest. There are what, 1000 Marines in a Chapter, give or take? Let's say only one in ten prospects from a normal world will pass muster... Not everyone who fails dies (it's been stated in several places that those who fail and survive become Chapter serfs... no reason they can't be sent back to Cadia as potential Kasrkin). But lets assume a 75% casualty rate, just to be grimdark. That's 10,000 people recruited to make one Chapter, with 2,500 surviving and of those 1,000 making the cut. Given that a Chapter doesn't recruit all 1000 Marines every single year (that's what happens when Chapters are wiped out) they'd probably only need to recruit 100 or so every year to fill battle losses. So, that's 1000 people being recruited per annum.

Compare that with how many get drafted into the Interior Guard alone, never mind how many end up in the IG proper (Cadia contributes hundreds, if not thousands of regiments to the IG) and you see that Space Marine recruitment isn't even big enough to warrant being called a drop in the bucket.

So there's no plausible reason why you can't create a Cadian-based Chapter of Marines. Especially since GW has not explicitly stated that there are no SM Chapters drawing from Cadia. After all, if GW has not said "it never happens" then there is plenty of room to say "it might very well happen".

This is exactly what I was thinking the amount of citizens needed to found a chapter is tiny compared to even the size of one guard regiment

squidhills wrote:There's nothing that says the Imperium wouldn't found a Chapter based on Cadia. It makes sense that, of the twenty that guard the Cadian Gate, at least one would have a fortress there, and probably one or two might recruit from there.

Having a fortress there, and feasibly recruiting from there are two very different things.

To give a good example, I'd point you towards "The Purging of Kadillus". The Dark Angels maintain a Fortress Monastery on one of a pair of twin planets. One planet is civilized, with a technology base large enough to support a large scale mobilization of a PDF or even Guard Foundings.

The other planet, which the Dark Angels recruit from but have no Fortress-Monastery on, is purposely kept at a level of barbarism and feudal tribes.
Why? It's easier to indoctrinate youths into the methods of the Astartes in that way.

Recruitment for a SM Chapter wouldn't impact the Cadian population in the slightest. There are what, 1000 Marines in a Chapter, give or take? Let's say only one in ten prospects from a normal world will pass muster... Not everyone who fails dies (it's been stated in several places that those who fail and survive become Chapter serfs... no reason they can't be sent back to Cadia as potential Kasrkin).

"Those who fail and survive" are actually pretty rare.

But lets assume a 75% casualty rate, just to be grimdark. That's 10,000 people recruited to make one Chapter, with 2,500 surviving and of those 1,000 making the cut. Given that a Chapter doesn't recruit all 1000 Marines every single year (that's what happens when Chapters are wiped out) they'd probably only need to recruit 100 or so every year to fill battle losses. So, that's 1000 people being recruited per annum.

Which is a Regiment being recruited and potentially killed off, annually.

Compare that with how many get drafted into the Interior Guard alone, never mind how many end up in the IG proper (Cadia contributes hundreds, if not thousands of regiments to the IG) and you see that Space Marine recruitment isn't even big enough to warrant being called a drop in the bucket.

There's no "draft" on Cadia. You either serve in the military or serve in some industry supporting the military if you cannot serve in the military. They do not have farms or anything like that, they have worlds that farm for them. They have entire agriworlds and forgeworlds devoted to making sure the Cadian Shock stay equipped and able to fight.

So there's no plausible reason why you can't create a Cadian-based Chapter of Marines. Especially since GW has not explicitly stated that there are no SM Chapters drawing from Cadia. After all, if GW has not said "it never happens" then there is plenty of room to say "it might very well happen".

Saying that there are no SM Chapters drawing from Cadia, while drawing from other worlds as well is a completely different story than exclusively recruiting from Cadia.

Plus, they have said as much in a vague statement during the EOT campaign that the Astartes do not touch the planet because they're not stupid enough to draw recruits from active warzones.

iproxtaco wrote:When the vast majority is what Kanluwen described, then yeah, you can generalize.

It's only the vast majority because there arne so many planets in the Imperium, and most arn't under constant threat of attack, still no reason to presume a PDF can't be relatively well trained.

Lappie wrote:Surely you're generalising. It depends on the planet which the PDF is from. Planets that are well equipped and attacked more often have much better PDF than ones that never see any action apart from the odd uprising.

I'm generalizing, of course. The planets that are well equipped and attacked often will have a much better PDF than ones that never see any action apart from the odd uprising.

The thing that you're missing is that planets that are well equipped AND attacked often are not as common as you think.
Equipping PDF is done by the Governor of a planet, not the Imperium at large. Some planets will also have PDFs that consist of Guardsmen who 'won' the planet in question, or any number of odd circumstances.

But the vast majority are exactly as I said: decently equipped to deal with internal threats and occasional raids. Anything larger, and they request aid from the Imperial Guard. It's what the Guard is for.

Kanluwen wrote:. They do not have farms or anything like that, they have worlds that farm for them.

Although heavily militarized, Cadia is largely self-sufficient, and exports huge amounts of weapons to its neighbouring planets

Lappie wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:When the vast majority is what Kanluwen described, then yeah, you can generalize.

It's only the vast majority because there are so many planets in the Imperium, and most aren't under constant threat of attack, still no reason to presume a PDF can't be relatively well trained.

I should also note that the level of training for PDFs really doesn't differ by and large. Experience does not equal training. Experience is an outside factor, which is a terrible indicator of how well trained a PDF is or how effective they will be.

We'll use a theoretical example here.
Let's say the planet Gudrun, a decent technologically based world that has an Inquisitorial presence as well, is training their PDF. They recruit individuals from all walks of life, from gangers who got involved in plenty of brawls and knifefights to ex-Guard veterans to noblemen's sons who never fired a shot in their life.

Now, you've got the makings of a nasty force based on the idea of "experience" because they clearly will have many experienced individuals right?
Wrong. Gangers who were involved in brawls and knifefights have just as little in the way of experience/training as the noblemen's sons who never fired a shot in their life. They have no idea how to operate in combat situations, they have no idea how to behave or utilize fire discipline, or any number of the important things that those Guard veterans already knew how to do.

Kanluwen wrote:Plus, they have said as much in a vague statement during the EOT campaign that the Astartes do not touch the planet because they're not stupid enough to draw recruits from active warzones.

This is the only thing that successfully counters anything in my post. If GW said that SM Chapters do not pull from Cadia, even if it was back in the Eye of Terror campaign book, then SM Chapters do not pull from Cadia, end of story. Any thing else was just supposition.

Lappie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:. They do not have farms or anything like that, they have worlds that farm for them.

Although heavily militarized, Cadia is largely self-sufficient, and exports huge amounts of weapons to its neighbouring planets

And the thing you're missing is that Cadia has an entire system that makes them "largely self-sufficient".

I suggest you look up the planets Kantrael, Fremas, Belisar, Demios Binary, Ormantep, Vorga Torq, Xersia, Helotas, Barisa, Exeltra Minor, and Clausten.

Now we're pretty much diverting from the subject at hand.

I still see no massive reason why a SM chapter couldn't be founded on cadia.

No we're not. You asked why, we gave a great many reasons. They don't do it, because Cadia needs all the bodies they can get.

What I'm trying to say here is not getting the answer you wanted("It's totally doable, go for it!") doesn't make it "off topic".

If you want some kind of Chapter that somehow or another recruits from Cadia, taking the same kind of individual that is earmarked for the Kasrkin, be aware that it won't be a very popular one amongst fluff fans.

If you want a Chapter that actually has workable fluff and a concept that people will like--be aware you're going to have to put some work into it.

Kanluwen wrote:No we're not. You asked why, we gave a great many reasons. They don't do it, because Cadia needs all the bodies they can get.

Well we were "discussing" what PDF's are like. The SM would still be fighting on cadia, I don't think it'd be any kind of disadvantage.

Lappie wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:When the vast majority is what Kanluwen described, then yeah, you can generalize.

It's only the vast majority because there arne so many planets in the Imperium, and most arn't under constant threat of attack, still no reason to presume a PDF can't be relatively well trained.

No one's presuming anything. It's a generalization, because generally, the vast majority are what Kanluwen described them to be.

Lappie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No we're not. You asked why, we gave a great many reasons. They don't do it, because Cadia needs all the bodies they can get.

Well we were "discussing" what PDF's are like. The SM would still be fighting on cadia, I don't think it'd be any kind of disadvantage.

We were discussing what PDF's were like because the 'PDF' of Cadia was brought up. No PDF exists, it's the Interior Guard--which is not the same entity.

However if you can't see the disadvantage of taking Cadia's best and brightest that would be going into the Kasrkin's numbers and HOPING they don't die during the initiation and augmentation process, I'm not quite sure I can help you see why that's a risk that is silly to take.

It would only be one year that there would be a big drain on intake to kasrkin. After that there would be the kasrkin AND a new chapter of eager space marines all with a great fighting tradition and reputation behind them.

Then they would have to recruit more to keep the ranks up, starting the process again.

Chapters aren't built in a year.

They're built up over decades.

The Imperium doesn't just decide one day "Hey guys, we're gonna have new Space Marines!" and suddenly, they have new Space Marines.
It's a long process, which is another reason it's ridiculous compared to just keeping the Kasrkin.

And quite frankly...who needs "Cadian Marines" when you have the Kasrkin. Hardcore, soldiers for life who are pretty much 40k's equivalent of the Spartan-II program?

Yeah. Not seeing a reason to get rid of Kasrkin for Cadian Marines.

Yeah but it's be a much smaller number.

Hundreds of aspirants a year, with maybe a quarter of that able to actually accept the surgical/genetic portion in addition to surviving.

That's still a lot of potential Shock Troops or Kasrkin going down the drain.

Kanluwen wrote:Chapters aren't built in a year.

They're built up over decades.

The Imperium doesn't just decide one day "Hey guys, we're gonna have new Space Marines!" and suddenly, they have new Space Marines.
It's a long process, which is another reason it's ridiculous compared to just keeping the Kasrkin.

And quite frankly...who needs "Cadian Marines" when you have the Kasrkin. Hardcore, soldiers for life who are pretty much 40k's equivalent of the Spartan-II program?

Yeah. Not seeing a reason to get rid of Kasrkin for Cadian Marines.

I never said anything about totally getting rid of the kasrkin


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Hundreds of aspirants a year, with maybe a quarter of that able to actually accept the surgical/genetic portion in addition to surviving.

That's still a lot of potential Shock Troops or Kasrkin going down the drain.

still not alot compared the the overall number in the cadian military system

Kanluwen wrote:However if you can't see the disadvantage of taking Cadia's best and brightest that would be going into the Kasrkin's numbers and HOPING they don't die during the initiation and augmentation process, I'm not quite sure I can help you see why that's a risk that is silly to take.

Given that a 1000 man SM Chapter hits harder than a 1000 man Kasrkin Company, it's not a silly risk to take.

What is silly is the fact this thread is still going, despite the fact that you already made the post that should've been the period at the end of this thread's sentence, ie: the bit about the Eye of Terror book saying that Marines DON'T recruit from Cadia. Since the OP was asking if a Chapter could recruit from Cadia, this answered the question pretty solidly. While it might make sense for them to do so, GW has laid down the law: it don't happen.

Not a lot of wiggle room to put a SM Chapter in there.

Equivalent to the Spartan II program? Close, but not quite.

Lappie wrote:It would only be one year that there would be a big drain on intake to kasrkin. After that there would be the kasrkin AND a new chapter of eager space marines all with a great fighting tradition and reputation behind them.

There are a number of reasons against as have been discussed but lets continue on your patha dn try and sort out a good fluff reason/s.

It also worh remembering that setting up a new Chapter is no small undertaking and will take time to do - maybe decades to put everytihg in place - from the logistical equipment and infrastructure to the geeneseed.

You could write something that follows the devestation of the 13th Black Crusade and how the Imperium deicdes to set up a new Chapter on Cadia - after all sometimes the Imperiums descions are not always wise or made of obvious reasons (or at least don't appear so).

Perhaps the rumoured Astartes Praeses donate thei geneseed to this undertaking - perhaps the founding goes well - or perhaps it does not. Pretty much all of the big name Chapters are involved so again they could be moved to petition for a Chapter (personally I doubt it- but you could write someting along these lines.........)

There is a potential story here and it could be told............some will enjoy some will not.........

squidhills wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:However if you can't see the disadvantage of taking Cadia's best and brightest that would be going into the Kasrkin's numbers and HOPING they don't die during the initiation and augmentation process, I'm not quite sure I can help you see why that's a risk that is silly to take.

Given that a 1000 man SM Chapter hits harder than a 1000 man Kasrkin Company, it's not a silly risk to take.

Given that a 1000 man Marine Chapter won't ever be fielded all at one place, while a Kasrkin Company would(and has)...I'd say the issue of who hits harder is moot.
To give an idea, however, the Honour Roll for the 13th Black Crusade lists 19 Kasrkin Companies "commended for Conspicuous Gallantry".
The Order of Battle given at the outset of the campaign in White Dwarf 281?
486 Kasrkin Companies.
Think about that for a moment.
That's 486,000 Kasrkin. 486,000 men all trained to the standard of the Stormtroopers, with them receiving their training after having already served time within the Shock Troops proper.

That's 486,000 men I'd want serving under my command.

What is silly is the fact this thread is still going, despite the fact that you already made the post that should've been the period at the end of this thread's sentence, ie: the bit about the Eye of Terror book saying that Marines DON'T recruit from Cadia. Since the OP was asking if a Chapter could recruit from Cadia, this answered the question pretty solidly. While it might make sense for them to do so, GW has laid down the law: it don't happen.

Not a lot of wiggle room to put a SM Chapter in there.

Indeed. The number I just threw out, however, probably explains why they don't recruit from it.

iproxtaco wrote:Equivalent to the Spartan II program? Close, but not quite.

Only thing they're really missing is Mjolnir.

Gene-enhancement therapies have been hinted at since Abnett's introduction of the Kasrkin in "Malleus", and then got hinted at again in Dawn of War's "Winter Assault". It's a bit less solid than I usually like to go on for fluff--but I can't see any reason why we wouldn't see this happening. They may not be wearing something like Mjolnir, but Kasrkin and Stormtrooper Carapace Armor isn't really a joke--especially with the techy bits that have been mentioned as being part of it. NV, pict capture, built-in auspex for the helmets, IFF transponders, etc all hint at it being more than just slabs of armor laid on.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Equivalent to the Spartan II program? Close, but not quite.

Only thing they're really missing is Mjolnir.

Gene-enhancement therapies have been hinted at since Abnett's introduction of the Kasrkin in "Malleus", and then got hinted at again in Dawn of War's "Winter Assault". It's a bit less solid than I usually like to go on for fluff--but I can't see any reason why we wouldn't see this happening. They may not be wearing something like Mjolnir, but Kasrkin and Stormtrooper Carapace Armor isn't really a joke--especially with the techy bits that have been mentioned as being part of it. NV, pict capture, built-in auspex for the helmets, IFF transponders, etc all hint at it being more than just slabs of armor laid on.

I guess we just differ then. SPARTAN II's have extensive bio-engineering, Mjolnir is part of the program. They're stupidly low in number for the scale of their primary conflict, they specialize in hard-hitting spearhead assaults, and have been trained from the age of around 7 due to very particular genetic markers. Sounds more like the Astartes to me. Kasrkin compare better to SPARTAN III's in my opinion. They are mass-produced relatively speaking, have inferior bio-enchantments and armour, and are supposed to be more expendable than SPARTAN II's.

iproxtaco wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Equivalent to the Spartan II program? Close, but not quite.

Only thing they're really missing is Mjolnir.

Gene-enhancement therapies have been hinted at since Abnett's introduction of the Kasrkin in "Malleus", and then got hinted at again in Dawn of War's "Winter Assault". It's a bit less solid than I usually like to go on for fluff--but I can't see any reason why we wouldn't see this happening. They may not be wearing something like Mjolnir, but Kasrkin and Stormtrooper Carapace Armor isn't really a joke--especially with the techy bits that have been mentioned as being part of it. NV, pict capture, built-in auspex for the helmets, IFF transponders, etc all hint at it being more than just slabs of armor laid on.

I guess we just differ then. SPARTAN II's have extensive bio-engineering, Mjolnir is part of the program. They're stupidly low in number for the scale of their primary conflict, they specialize in hard-hitting spearhead assaults, and have been trained from the age of around 7 due to very particular genetic markers. Sounds more like the Astartes to me.

Thing is, the SII program was started before the Covenant were ever encountered. The SII's had already been starting the training process by the time Harvest happened. SII's were supposed to be used as kind of a 'NavSpec' styled team that was going to put down the Insurrectionists and become a bloody nightmare for the rebels. Mjolnir, while part of the program, was also forced to be rushed because of the encounters with the Covenant.

Kasrkin compare better to SPARTAN III's in my opinion. They are mass-produced relatively speaking, have inferior bio-enchantments and armour, and are supposed to be more expendable than SPARTAN II's.

Ehhh. The Kasrkin have 'inferior' armor compared to Astartes...but then again, even most forms of Inquisitorial/Soroitas power armor is supposed to be 'inferior' to Astartes equipment.

You're right on the 'mass produced' part though, but less right on the expendable part. Kasrkin are trained to spearhead Cadian Shock Troop assaults, pretty much being a great big rallying beacon to the Cadians they're fighting alongside.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Equivalent to the Spartan II program? Close, but not quite.

Only thing they're really missing is Mjolnir.

Gene-enhancement therapies have been hinted at since Abnett's introduction of the Kasrkin in "Malleus", and then got hinted at again in Dawn of War's "Winter Assault". It's a bit less solid than I usually like to go on for fluff--but I can't see any reason why we wouldn't see this happening. They may not be wearing something like Mjolnir, but Kasrkin and Stormtrooper Carapace Armor isn't really a joke--especially with the techy bits that have been mentioned as being part of it. NV, pict capture, built-in auspex for the helmets, IFF transponders, etc all hint at it being more than just slabs of armor laid on.

I guess we just differ then. SPARTAN II's have extensive bio-engineering, Mjolnir is part of the program. They're stupidly low in number for the scale of their primary conflict, they specialize in hard-hitting spearhead assaults, and have been trained from the age of around 7 due to very particular genetic markers. Sounds more like the Astartes to me.

Thing is, the SII program was started before the Covenant were ever encountered. The SII's had already been starting the training process by the time Harvest happened. SII's were supposed to be used as kind of a 'NavSpec' styled team that was going to put down the Insurrectionists and become a bloody nightmare for the rebels. Mjolnir, while part of the program, was also forced to be rushed because of the encounters with the Covenant.

Sure, but they adapted pretty well to the more important conflict. They were low in number due to a sparse number of viable candidates. It's hinted that a second batch of SPARTAN II's were recruited during the war once the population became high enough. That and the entire program was stupidly expensive, those were the constraints on numbers, much like the Astartes.

Kasrkin compare better to SPARTAN III's in my opinion. They are mass-produced relatively speaking, have inferior bio-enchantments and armour, and are supposed to be more expendable than SPARTAN II's.

Ehhh. The Kasrkin have 'inferior' armor compared to Astartes...but then again, even most forms of Inquisitorial/Soroitas power armor is supposed to be 'inferior' to Astartes equipment.

You're right on the 'mass produced' part though, but less right on the expendable part. Kasrkin are trained to spearhead Cadian Shock Troop assaults, pretty much being a great big rallying beacon to the Cadians they're fighting alongside.

And SPARTAN III's have inferior armour to SPARTAN III's. It sacrifices protection, strength, and speed, for stealth.

Everything I said was relative. Relative to the Astartes, the Imperium sees the Kasrkin as expendable assets. There were 486,000 fighting during the 13th Black Crusade, compared to a lot less Astartes. Relative to the SPARTAN II's, the UNSC High Command sees the SPARTAN III's as expendable. 33 original SPARTAN II's compared to three entire SPRTAN III companies of 300 each, 330 for the last.

iproxtaco wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Equivalent to the Spartan II program? Close, but not quite.

Only thing they're really missing is Mjolnir.

Gene-enhancement therapies have been hinted at since Abnett's introduction of the Kasrkin in "Malleus", and then got hinted at again in Dawn of War's "Winter Assault". It's a bit less solid than I usually like to go on for fluff--but I can't see any reason why we wouldn't see this happening. They may not be wearing something like Mjolnir, but Kasrkin and Stormtrooper Carapace Armor isn't really a joke--especially with the techy bits that have been mentioned as being part of it. NV, pict capture, built-in auspex for the helmets, IFF transponders, etc all hint at it being more than just slabs of armor laid on.

I guess we just differ then. SPARTAN II's have extensive bio-engineering, Mjolnir is part of the program. They're stupidly low in number for the scale of their primary conflict, they specialize in hard-hitting spearhead assaults, and have been trained from the age of around 7 due to very particular genetic markers. Sounds more like the Astartes to me.

Thing is, the SII program was started before the Covenant were ever encountered. The SII's had already been starting the training process by the time Harvest happened. SII's were supposed to be used as kind of a 'NavSpec' styled team that was going to put down the Insurrectionists and become a bloody nightmare for the rebels. Mjolnir, while part of the program, was also forced to be rushed because of the encounters with the Covenant.

Sure, but they adapted pretty well to the more important conflict. They were low in number due to a sparse number of viable candidates. It's hinted that a second batch of SPARTAN II's were recruited during the war once the population became high enough. That and the entire program was stupidly expensive, those were the constraints on numbers, much like the Astartes.

They adapted pretty well to the more important conflict?

You mean where something like they had 90% losses?
The program was indeed absurdly expensive, but that was not because the capabilities for mass production weren't there. It was because most of it had to be built from the ground up, with research ongoing the entire way.

Kasrkin compare better to SPARTAN III's in my opinion. They are mass-produced relatively speaking, have inferior bio-enchantments and armour, and are supposed to be more expendable than SPARTAN II's.

Ehhh. The Kasrkin have 'inferior' armor compared to Astartes...but then again, even most forms of Inquisitorial/Soroitas power armor is supposed to be 'inferior' to Astartes equipment.

You're right on the 'mass produced' part though, but less right on the expendable part. Kasrkin are trained to spearhead Cadian Shock Troop assaults, pretty much being a great big rallying beacon to the Cadians they're fighting alongside.

And SPARTAN III's have inferior armour to SPARTAN III's. It sacrifices protection, strength, and speed, for stealth.

Stealth and the ability to be mass produced without necessitating a lot of fitting and other sundries that the Mjolnir equipment, of which the majority of it had to essentially be 'made for one person', required.

Remember that the SPI wasn't going to be just for Spartan III's. It was going to be issued to ODSTs, NavSpecWarfare Teams, ONI infiltration teams, etc etc. Before the SIII's, the SPI was already underway and it was going to be used en masse when it was needed.

Everything I said was relative. Relative to the Astartes, the Imperium sees the Kasrkin as expendable assets. There were 486,000 fighting during the 13th Black Crusade, compared to a lot less Astartes.

The Imperium sees everyone, even the Astartes, as expendable assets. The only difference is that Astartes lives are considered quite a valuable currency and expected to be expended only when necessary or the pay off is worth the loss.

This has deffinately deviated from topic now lol

I will say that I get what you're driving at.

Yes, the Kasrkin are expendable--but I made the SII comment because of the numbers that you mentioned.

486 Kasrkin Companies(486,000 Kasrkin) compared to the 612 Cadian Shock Troop Regiments(conservative guess of 612,000,000 Shock Troops?) and 16 "Regional Commands"(which I have no real sense of scale for, to be honest but we can guesstimate it being around the Shock Troop scale perhaps?) worth of Cadian Youth Army make for a fairly compelling argument as to the Kasrkin being the "S-II's" of 40k, with the Astartes essentially being the plot armored Spartans who we all know are such huge bad mamba jambas, and Cadian Shock Troops being the "S-III's".

Also, to give a sense of scale as to the deployment for "The Blessed Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind" for the Eye of Terror...

The entirety of the Space Wolves(12 Great Companies) were there.
The Night Watch(lol?) contributed 11 Companies.
The Dark Angels, Exorcists, Storm Warriors, White Consuls, Iron Hands, Relictors, Angels of Absolution, and Brazen Claws all contributed 10 Companies.
The Marines Exemplar contributed 9 Companies.
The Howling Griffons, Excoriators, and Harbingers all contributed 8 Companies each.
The Angels Sanguine contributed 7 Companies.
The Novamarines and Death Specters contributed 6 Companies each.
The Angels of Vigilance, Iron Snakes, and Doom Eagles contributed 5 Companies each.
The Subjugators provided 3 Companies.
The Ultramarines and Iron Knights provided a Company each, with the notation that it was an "Honor Company" in the case of the Ultramarines. If I remember right, the Honor Company is supposed to be made up of members of the First Company from the Ultramarines and each of their Successor Chapters.

Kanluwen wrote:Now, you've got the makings of a nasty force based on the idea of "experience" because they clearly will have many experienced individuals right?
Wrong. Gangers who were involved in brawls and knifefights have just as little in the way of experience/training as the noblemen's sons who never fired a shot in their life. They have no idea how to operate in combat situations, they have no idea how to behave or utilize fire discipline, or any number of the important things that those Guard veterans already knew how to do.

Space Marines aren't guardsmen, they operate in other ways. The gangers have no IG veteran reflexes to get in the way of the marine training, only the will to kill and maim. And there's the psycho-conditioning and such - I'd guess it's easier to indoctrinate individuals that haven't already been exposed to mass indoctrination like guardsmen surely are.

Civilized people also don't buy the whole "kill this many guys to get one soldier and a few serfs" thing quite as easily as more primitive ones. If you already live on a nice or at least tolerable planet you won't see the whole "fight 24 hours a day" gig as a good thing. But ferals or hive gangers... Take them from hell, put them through hell, then tell them they're the best of the best for surviving it.

SPARTAN IIs - Astartes.
SPARTAN IIIs - Kasrkins.
ODSTs - Cadian Shock Troopers.
Marines - Regular Guard.
If you were to ask me.

Kan knows what he is talking about. Plus, Karskins are easier to make. May not be marine quality, but as Papa Stalin once said "Quantity has a quality all it's own".

Spetulhu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Now, you've got the makings of a nasty force based on the idea of "experience" because they clearly will have many experienced individuals right?
Wrong. Gangers who were involved in brawls and knifefights have just as little in the way of experience/training as the noblemen's sons who never fired a shot in their life. They have no idea how to operate in combat situations, they have no idea how to behave or utilize fire discipline, or any number of the important things that those Guard veterans already knew how to do.

Space Marines aren't guardsmen, they operate in other ways. The gangers have no IG veteran reflexes to get in the way of the marine training, only the will to kill and maim. And there's the psycho-conditioning and such - I'd guess it's easier to indoctrinate individuals that haven't already been exposed to mass indoctrination like guardsmen surely are.

This right here suggests you're not actually aware of what the Astartes do.
The Astartes don't do "killing and maiming". The Astartes as a whole are not dumb brutes, let loose in a warzone as shock weapons.
The vast majority of them are quite adept tacticians and insanely thorough planners having thought of most contingencies before they commit a single Battle-Brother to a warzone.
The vast majority of Chapters are quite frankly the perfect example of "surgical attacks". They drop in, sever the command structure, and do this all in such perfectly timed precision that the enemy has no way to respond except by trying to throw ungodly amounts of manpower at countering the issue.

Civilized people also don't buy the whole "kill this many guys to get one soldier and a few serfs" thing quite as easily as more primitive ones. If you already live on a nice or at least tolerable planet you won't see the whole "fight 24 hours a day" gig as a good thing. But ferals or hive gangers... Take them from hell, put them through hell, then tell them they're the best of the best for surviving it.

If you already live on a nice or at least tolerable planet and interact on a day to day basis(like the people of Ultramar do) with a Chapter like the Ultramarines and their Successors, Raven Guard, the Imperial or Crimson Fists, or the Dark Angels and their Successors--then you'll realize it's not "hurr go through hell and do nothin' but kill kill kill". The people of Ultramar think that being selected for initiation is a huge honor and a responsibility.

And Taco, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I didn't even think to include the ODSTs.

Aw, now I feel all smug.

That's one point I forgot to mention, both Feral Tribesmen and Civilized people see it is an honor to be recruited to their respective Legions. Ultramar particularly has a long standing tradition of it, tracing ancestors who were Astartes.

The civilized worlds as recruiting grounds do seem to be a minority though.

And I don't mean to imply marines (the ones that graduate) are stupid brutes - but making recruits into marines is surely easier if the recruits have less baggage? The body has to be reasonably young to reliably accept all the upgrades, after all. Why don't also go for a mind free of preconceptions about weapons and tactics?

I think cadian marines would be fine to hav and would be easyily moulded into the fluff
Just cos it say they don't recruit from cadia doesn't mean they won't! Might even hav afew in freezer?
And as for sacraficing IG ain't that there job?

U get Deathwatch killteams! Why not stick cadian colours on as the choosen few?
Don't know how long IG live for but Probly not even half that of Marines specialy if the hav to fight lol
But maybe instead of retirement they sign up to the good old Marine TA

Point is anything is possible, fluff may be set in stone sumtimes but there's still gaps to add new stuff
Cadian legend could do same and make sum Merc Marines and come back to cadia to help his skilled cannonfodder mates

Mr. Bloodlustin Monkey, could you please take a bit more time and effort when posting with regards to spelling, grammar and formatting please. Much obliged.

Before I reply to this...'post', I had to go through and correct every error to make it far more understandable.

Bloodlustin Monkey wrote:I think Cadian Marines would be fine to have and would be easily molded into the fluff
Just because it says they don't recruit from Cadia doesn't mean they won't!

Actually, that's exactly what it means.

Might even have a few in freezer?
And as for sacrificing IG, isn't that their job?

You're not understanding the role of the Imperial Guard.

Their lives are relatively valuable, compared to what you seem to be thinking. Commanders who waste Guard lives meaninglessly and/or fail to get the job done in the process tend to be censured or looked down upon by the Guard as a whole.
Commanders do not get glory and honor by wasting troops on objectives not worth the cost in lives.

You get Deathwatch kill-teams! Why not stick Cadian colours on as the chosen few?

Why did you bring up the Deathwatch? They have nothing to do with Cadia, by and large.
Grey Knights are more commonly found operating within the Cadian Gate region than the Deathwatch would be.

The Deathwatch also isn't some kind of magical "haha! victory!" for ridiculous ideas.

I don't know how long IG live for, but probably not even half that of Marines especially if they have to fight.
But maybe instead of retirement they sign up to the good old Marine TA

If you're meaning "Retired Imperial Guardsmen join the Marines" that's just as ridiculous as using the Deathwatch as a way to introduce Cadian Marines.
There's an age limit as to when someone can accept the implants and surgeries of the Astartes. By the time someone is in the Imperial Guard--that age limit has been passed.

Point is anything is possible, fluff may be set in stone sometimes but there's still gaps to add new stuff

Of course there's still gaps to add new stuff.
Except when the fluff is set in stone regarding recruitment and we know that it isn't done.
Just like the concepts of Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Necrons, Mercenary Space Marines, and Chaos Tau--Cadian Space Marines don't work.

Cadian legend could do the same and make some mercenary Marines and come back to Cadia to help his skilled cannon fodder mates

I have no clue why you started off with "Cadian legend". Are you saying "A Cadian legend", as in there's a Cadian legend who goes off and does it or something?

Anyways. Mercenary Marines is just as bad of an idea. It's rare enough for Astartes to go rogue at this point in the Imperium's history, much less they go out on their own and start working for money(why? WHY? what use do they have for money? Money buys luxuries, what do Astartes consider luxuries?).

Kanluwen wrote:That doesn't "make them PDF" in the general sense. This isn't really complex to understand. [...] Interior Guard are not PDF, except in the sense that they defend the planet.

That's not what his quote says, though. You seem to be quite fond of accusing people of a lower intelligence (third time I'm reading a thread with you using that sentence), and you should really work on that attitude - especially when you're starting to contradict yourself instead of simply admitting you might've been wrong.

For the record: Every planet has its own name for its PDF. "Interior Guard" simply seems to be the one applied to Cadia's. Every planet's PDF also has a different degree of quality (depending solely on how the local government runs it and what tech-level they have), and Cadia's PDF would without doubt be better trained and equipped than average. The same would likely apply to the Catachan or Mordian PDF, though. Or any other regiment that has been described as having a special trait in the IG Codex.

An important thing to consider would be, however, that the Cadian PDF would effectively be a permanent part of the IG hierarchy, as is the case in every war zone where PDF are operating alongside the Imperial Guard. And Cadia's defense is led by Creeeeed.

What's the source of that quote, though? It may make a very important difference whether that's from a GW book or just some novel.

OnTopic: It's true that the Astartes prefer recruiting feral worlders - I remember having read that in their Codex, and it makes sense due to a greater level of aggression and better constitution in its population. I would assume that Chapters deviating from this general rule only do so because they don't have access to sufficiently populated feral worlds in their domain, or that they do it because civilized recruits better fit their Chapter's style/culture (and/or because it simply was the Primarch's homeworld, i.e. where he lived until being rediscovered).

Cadia has nothing to give the Astartes - the discipline of their troops is a matter of training. On that basis, perhaps it would be better to convert OP's idea into one of those Chapters simply stationed in the area, but drawing recruits from a different world?

As far as I know, nobody said that the Sector doesn't include any feral worlds either.

Because Cadians are too badass to be Space Marines?

Certain Chapters "deviate" because they have a population with as much clout as a feral tribesmen. The people of Ultramar and Rynn's World are such examples. Beneficial traits are basically bred into the population, part of the culture. Cadia, by those terms, would be ideal for recruitment, but there are several other factors that prevent this.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That doesn't "make them PDF" in the general sense. This isn't really complex to understand. [...] Interior Guard are not PDF, except in the sense that they defend the planet.

That's not what his quote says, though. You seem to be quite fond of accusing people of a lower intelligence (third time I'm reading a thread with you using that sentence), and you should really work on that attitude - especially when you're starting to contradict yourself instead of simply admitting you might've been wrong.

And you seem to be fond of making baseless accusations and trying to stir the pot up.

For the record: Every planet has its own name for its PDF. "Interior Guard" simply seems to be the one applied to Cadia's. Every planet's PDF also has a different degree of quality (depending solely on how the local government runs it and what tech-level they have), and Cadia's PDF would without doubt be better trained and equipped than average. The same would likely apply to the Catachan or Mordian PDF, though. Or any other regiment that has been described as having a special trait in the IG Codex.

And "for the record", the Eye of Terror campaign book backs my claim and is where the Interior Guard was introduced.

Eye of Terror Codex, page 38 wrote:
A Note on the Internal Guard.
The internal guard is Cadia's defence against Chaos cultist activity. It consists of Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus permanently seconded to the Cadian military. Cadia's proximity to the Eye of Terror makes it particularly susceptible to corruption by the power of Chaos.

Like any other Imperial Guard army, a Cadian army can select allied Daemonhunter units, in the case of the Cadians though these can be used to represent the Cadian Internal Guard. All Codex: Daemonhunter limitations apply. The Cadians get no special advantages when selecting allies from the Codex: Daemonhunter list, but it is mentioned here to inform players of a less well-known part of the Cadian military establishment that has considerable gaming potential. Naturally if an Inquisitor's retinue includes any veteran guardsmen it would be entirely appropriate to represent them with Kasrkin models.

An important thing to consider would be, however, that the Cadian PDF would effectively be a permanent part of the IG hierarchy, as is the case in every war zone where PDF are operating alongside the Imperial Guard. And Cadia's defense is led by Creeeeed.

'An important thing to consider' would once again be that the Cadian PDF does not exist in the form you think it does. The "Cadian PDF", the Interior Guard, is drawn up from the Cadian Youth Armies or from survivors of regiments that have been by and large decimated. They do this as a way of ensuring a quality of training, and ensuring that there are permanently troops on the planet for when they're needed.
That last part is from a novel, so of course you won't trust it but I don't really give a flying crap because you seem to be under the impression that everything isn't canon unless it's touched by the hands of some GW editor(even though they are known to be the ones who've fethed the canon up more than anyone short of C.S. Goto).

What's the source of that quote, though? It may make a very important difference whether that's from a GW book or just some novel.

Which quote? There's like three in existence about the Cadian Interior Guard, and two of them support my claim rather than what that copypaste goon Cruddace screwed up when he capitalized three letters and bred a new level of ridiculousness for people to try to cite as evidence of it.

As far as I know, nobody said that the Sector doesn't include any feral worlds either.

It doesn't. There's only one world that isn't devoted to the war effort, and that's a penal world.

I agree with Lynata, Kanluwen, you seem to have abit of an attitude problem...

I am shocked that the person whose idea I shot down is agreeing with the goon who goes around disagreeing with my posts because s/he feels that Fantasy Flight Games' material, despite working hand in hand with GW, isn't "canon" because Dark Heresy(which was written and produced by GW itself) doesn't meet his/her understanding of canon.

Just marvelously shocked!

Great way to disprove your attitude problems, sarcasm and name calling...

Kanluwen wrote:I am shocked that the person whose idea I shot down is agreeing with the goon who goes around disagreeing with my posts because s/he feels that Fantasy Flight Games' material, despite working hand in hand with GW, isn't "canon" because Dark Heresy(which was written and produced by GW itself) doesn't meet his/her understanding of canon.

Dark Heresy was produced by Black Industries. Saying it was "written and produced by GW" is equal to claiming the same for Goto's books.

And just because YOU don't like it doesn't make something canon or non-canon because this is not YOUR setting.

The EoT quote confuses me, though, as it described the "Internal Guard" like some small inquisitorial anti-terror unit. Is this a retcon or a different formation?

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I am shocked that the person whose idea I shot down is agreeing with the goon who goes around disagreeing with my posts because s/he feels that Fantasy Flight Games' material, despite working hand in hand with GW, isn't "canon" because Dark Heresy(which was written and produced by GW itself) doesn't meet his/her understanding of canon.

Dark Heresy was produced by Black Industries. Saying it was "written and produced by GW" is equal to claiming the same for Goto's books.

Black Industries was part of Black Library, which is part of GW.

And just because YOU don't like it doesn't make something canon or non-canon because this is not YOUR setting.

You're right. You're absolutely right. Which is why I don't say something is or isn't. I say I consider it to be canon or non-canon because it fits MY vision of 40k and I also say that things should be considered more heavily if they fit better with the mainstream canon of 40k.

The EoT quote confuses me, though, as it described the "Internal Guard" like some small inquisitorial anti-terror unit. Is this a retcon or a different formation?

Formation within a formation. The Internal Guard is part of the Interior Guard, which is on page 5. The Internal Guard featured a bit more in Inquisitor's part for the Eye of Terror than it did for 40k proper.
"One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

So once again. Cadian 'PDF'=Interior Guard, with the Internal Guard being an 'elite' formation within the Interior Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:Black Industries was part of Black Library, which is part of GW.

Subsidiary, not exactly a part.

And if Black Industries was part of Black Library, the very same statements that made BL books non-canon also apply to BI books.

Bold text doesn't lend more credence to your arguments, by the way.

Kanluwen wrote:"One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

I see - does that mean that the Interior Guard is smaller than the Cadian IG Regiments?

Let's all calm down and carry on the discussion respectfully.

As to canon, the FFG rulesets are written in close connection with GW and by (among others) both current and former GW writers. It's not only Dark Heresy, which was produced by GW itself to the same extent that one might say that GW produces BL books, that enjoys canonical status. Rogue Trader and Deathwatch are both just as canonical as anything else published by Citadel or Black Library or, for that matter, any other organization (such as THQ) that licenses GW's 40k property.

Whether or not one acknowledges these sources as canon is a personal matter. Maybe in your personal version of 40k they are not canon. But they do constitute canon -- i.e., the events described "happened" and could possibly have effects on other parts of the 40k world -- in the wider sense of the 40k setting.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Black Industries was part of Black Library, which is part of GW.

Subsidiary, not exactly a part.

And if Black Industries was part of Black Library, the very same statements that made BL books non-canon also apply to BI books.

Bold text doesn't lend more credence to your arguments, by the way.

Consider yourself lucky I didn't bust out the Italics.

Kanluwen wrote:"One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

I see - does that mean that the Interior Guard is smaller than the Cadian IG Regiments?

Putting it bluntly: we don't get numbers on the Interior Guard.

It all boils down to this,

Space Marines don't recruit from Cadia because they need everyone for the war effort.


It is also in constant danger of falling to Chaos forces. a chapter who's recruiting grounds are in danger of falling would be in a dangerous position. Far better to have a Feral world deeper into the Galaxy be your source of initiates then one in danger of being lost/tainted by chaos.


In the end, it is your army and you can do what you want. Just be aware that many people won't like it. Its like someone making a Chaos warband made out of the Ultramarines who turned traitor. With Chaos Lord Calgar at their head no less.

Hang on, Cadia actually does have a Planetary Defence Force?

What the hell have you been arguing this past page, Kanluwen?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hang on, Cadia actually does have a Planetary Defence Force?

What the hell have you been arguing this past page, Kanluwen?

...Is this a serious statement or are you just trying to start some more shenanigans?

Kanluwen wrote:"One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

The 'Interior Guard' is Cadia's Planetary Defence Force.
The 'Interior Guard' is drawn from Cadia's Shock Troop Regiments("One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard").
The 'Interior Guard' has one role and one role only--defending Cadia. Ergo, they are Cadia's Planetary Defence Force.

Yes. Which goes completely against what you were saying earlier.

That the 'Interior Guard' is not a PDF perse.
That the 'Interior Guard' is made up of regiments that are posted there for a time.
That the 'Interior Guard' is subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in.

It really is a hilarious backpedal on your behalf.

I think what Kan is trying to say is that the Cadian "PDF" isn't recruited in the normal way.



a normal PDF is recruited from the planets population into a couple of regiments whose only purpose is to defend the planet. as such, a PDF is normally trained to a lesser standard then a IG regiment.

Cadia's "PDF" is drawn from not the general populace, but from the population who make it into the Shock Troops. 10% of the Shock Troops become Interior Guard who are permantly stationed on Cadia itself. the Cadian Interior Guard are actual IG, Cadians no less, but have the same purpose as a PDF.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes. Which goes completely against what you were saying earlier.

That the 'Interior Guard' is not a PDF perse.
That the 'Interior Guard' is made up of regiments that are posted there for a time.
That the 'Interior Guard' is subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in.

It really is a hilarious backpedal on your behalf.

I don't do that often, but you've just actually made me do that. Congrats.

The Interior Guard is not the same as a "PDF" on any other world. "PDF", capitalized, is considered a specific kind of formation--i.e. similar to a 'modern' military in terms of equipment, motivation, training, et al.

The Interior Guard is none of those. The Interior Guard is "One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

Tthe fact that it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten" alone makes it clear that they recruit from amongst the Cadian Shock Troops.

Sorry for skipping alot of the thread but it seems to be mostly missing the point.

The IoM do not found chapter's on worlds such as Cadia.

Space Marine chapters are for the most part independant organisations, they control the planet they are on. So founding a chapter on a pre-great crusade hive/forge/bastion world won't happen (unless a primarch landed on it) due to the fact that the admin./mars control those planets.

It is however perfectly ok fluff wise to have a chapter getting some recruits from Cadia, as part of an 'honour pact' due to some action of a chapter in Cadia's protection. But in general the admin. re to busy raising armys to give their best and brightest away.

<broadcast mode active: y'all need to calm down, stop sniping at each other, and get back on topic>

<text redacted; I said on-topic --Janthkin>

Sorry about my grammar and stuff, I'm from the north if that's any exscuse

1st not all Mercs do it just for the money, and don't always go it alone.
And I started with ' could do the same' as I did write abit about an ex SAS major buying a hind and starting his own army. But realised I shouldn't.

I brought up Deathwatch as and example, maybe not a good one but I don't see why there would be no possibility of cadian marines? Maybe not needed by the Guard but surely wouldn't be turned away if they offerd there alegence to cadia?

Sorry to all the IG players for the little joke about there job to be sacrificed, maybe abit much.
But it is Deffinitly a tactic I would consider with any high troop count armies, as sacrafice for the greater good is death with honour
although IG are brave they are abit squishy no?

If marine do go renagade and start fighting for their own personal gain, they usually become Warlords themselves. Marines don't like taking orders from anyone except from another space marine of higher rank.

Space marines often set up their own little petty empires when they go Renagade. The Fallen in particular do this alot.

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes. Which goes completely against what you were saying earlier.

That the 'Interior Guard' is not a PDF perse.
That the 'Interior Guard' is made up of regiments that are posted there for a time.
That the 'Interior Guard' is subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in.
It really is a hilarious backpedal on your behalf.

I don't do that often, but you've just actually made me do that. Congrats.

The Interior Guard is not the same as a "PDF" on any other world. "PDF", capitalized, is considered a specific kind of formation--i.e. similar to a 'modern' military in terms of equipment, motivation, training, et al.

The Interior Guard is none of those. The Interior Guard is "One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

Tthe fact that it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten" alone makes it clear that they recruit from amongst the Cadian Shock Troops.

Kanny, just admit that you've changed your stance and we can all get along here.

Back to OP, I don't think your idea will be popular at all. It's been demonstrated that Space Marine chapters don't recruit from Cadia, and that founding a Chapter on Cadia would take up a lot of time and resources which can't be spared.

That said, it is your army. Just remember that people may get annoyed at a force with that kind of background.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes. Which goes completely against what you were saying earlier.

That the 'Interior Guard' is not a PDF perse.
That the 'Interior Guard' is made up of regiments that are posted there for a time.
That the 'Interior Guard' is subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in.
It really is a hilarious backpedal on your behalf.

I don't do that often, but you've just actually made me do that. Congrats.

The Interior Guard is not the same as a "PDF" on any other world. "PDF", capitalized, is considered a specific kind of formation--i.e. similar to a 'modern' military in terms of equipment, motivation, training, et al.

The Interior Guard is none of those. The Interior Guard is "One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

Tthe fact that it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten" alone makes it clear that they recruit from amongst the Cadian Shock Troops.

Kanny, just admit that you've changed your stance and we can all get along here.

I think you need to go back and reread the first page, but this time actually read.

Me, on Page One. wrote:Cadian "PDF" does not exist. They have what is called the "Interior Guard", which are Cadian Shock regiments rotated in and out to stand watch over the homeworld. The exact number of regiments on Cadia isn't mentioned.

Lappie wrote:I know they are called the interior guard, I said PDF to simplify things incase not everyone knew. From what I read they do function as a PDF and the best are selected to be shock troops, never heard of it being a rotational thing since when you go off somewhere on crusade or to fight some other campaign there's little chance you'll end up coming home again.

Me, again, on Page One in reply to Lappie wrote:"The best" of Cadians aren't selected to be Shock Troops. Every Cadian soldier is a Shock Troop. "The best" are selected to be Kasrkin.

Like I have to keep saying though: Don't say PDF when referring to the Interior Guard. The acronym PDF refers to a specific form of Imperial military organization. They are, by and large, a mix of professional and volunteer soldiers trained to a bare minimum when compared with the Imperial Guard(and a laughable standard when compared with professional soldiery like the Cadians) and have been equipped to deal with small raiding parties, insurgents, and cells of heretics.
The Interior Guard is full-on Imperial Guard regiments, through and through, armed and equipped like any force leading an assault on an enemy held world.

Me, AGAIN, on Page One in reply to Lappie wrote:Because they are Cadia's planetary defense force.

That doesn't "make them PDF" in the general sense. This isn't really complex to understand.
You tried using the term interchangeably. It's not. Interior Guard are not PDF, except in the sense that they defend the planet. They are equipped, as standard, for the Imperial Guard.

Nothing I posted actually refutes my point of them being "made up of regiments that are posted there for a time". Nothing I posted actually refutes my point of them "being subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in".

If you want to get one over on me, you're going to have to wake up a heck of a lot earlier and hope I'm sick or drunk.

I think we could get you drunk...

At no point did I ever mention that the Interior were exactly the same as all other PDF, that would be slowed. I was simply saying they are used as the PDF. Kan seems to have got all frustratted for no real reason over this.


Saying any 2 PDF are exactly the same would be really stupid becuase they arn't.

I do now realise that founding a chapter on cadia may be a little extreme but it's the IoM... they've done worse before, moving moons, exterminatus, need I go on.

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes. Which goes completely against what you were saying earlier.

That the 'Interior Guard' is not a PDF perse.
That the 'Interior Guard' is made up of regiments that are posted there for a time.
That the 'Interior Guard' is subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in.
It really is a hilarious backpedal on your behalf.

I don't do that often, but you've just actually made me do that. Congrats.

The Interior Guard is not the same as a "PDF" on any other world. "PDF", capitalized, is considered a specific kind of formation--i.e. similar to a 'modern' military in terms of equipment, motivation, training, et al.

The Interior Guard is none of those. The Interior Guard is "One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

Tthe fact that it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten" alone makes it clear that they recruit from amongst the Cadian Shock Troops.

Kanny, just admit that you've changed your stance and we can all get along here.

I think you need to go back and reread the first page, but this time actually read.

Me, on Page One. wrote:Cadian "PDF" does not exist. They have what is called the "Interior Guard", which are Cadian Shock regiments rotated in and out to stand watch over the homeworld. The exact number of regiments on Cadia isn't mentioned.

Lappie wrote:I know they are called the interior guard, I said PDF to simplify things incase not everyone knew. From what I read they do function as a PDF and the best are selected to be shock troops, never heard of it being a rotational thing since when you go off somewhere on crusade or to fight some other campaign there's little chance you'll end up coming home again.

Me, again, on Page One in reply to Lappie wrote:"The best" of Cadians aren't selected to be Shock Troops. Every Cadian soldier is a Shock Troop. "The best" are selected to be Kasrkin.

Like I have to keep saying though: Don't say PDF when referring to the Interior Guard. The acronym PDF refers to a specific form of Imperial military organization. They are, by and large, a mix of professional and volunteer soldiers trained to a bare minimum when compared with the Imperial Guard(and a laughable standard when compared with professional soldiery like the Cadians) and have been equipped to deal with small raiding parties, insurgents, and cells of heretics.
The Interior Guard is full-on Imperial Guard regiments, through and through, armed and equipped like any force leading an assault on an enemy held world.

Me, AGAIN, on Page One in reply to Lappie wrote:Because they are Cadia's planetary defense force.

That doesn't "make them PDF" in the general sense. This isn't really complex to understand.
You tried using the term interchangeably. It's not. Interior Guard are not PDF, except in the sense that they defend the planet. They are equipped, as standard, for the Imperial Guard.

Nothing I posted actually refutes my point of them being "made up of regiments that are posted there for a time". Nothing I posted actually refutes my point of them "being subject to change as regiments are rotated out and in".

If you want to get one over on me, you're going to have to wake up a heck of a lot earlier and hope I'm sick or drunk.

Firstly, you claimed that the PDF (as you would call it) was made up of regiments that are posted there for a time. Your later quote refutes this and states that they are there for life.

Secondly, you claimed that the regiments are rotated in and out regularily. You later quote, again, refutes this and states that they are there for life, and while they may be every bit as competent as any Cadian off-world regiment, they never leave the planet.

Thirdly, I second the motion to get you drunk. But only if you're a huggy-type drunk, not one of those mean fellows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability or achievements, and as a result some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are amongst the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium."

Lappie wrote:At no point did I ever mention that the Interior were exactly the same as all other PDF, that would be slowed. I was simply saying they are used as the PDF. Kan seems to have got all frustrated for no real reason over this.

Saying any 2 PDF are exactly the same would be really stupid becuase they arn't.

And yet you got all huffy about 'generalizing'.
The Interior Guard is not a PDF. That's the point that you and Emperor's Faithful aren't comprehending, no matter how simply I've explained it.

They are not. They are recruited from within the Imperial Guard regiments that Cadia provides. That's why it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten".

So if the Interior Guard is recruited from among the Cadian soldiery that means that the Interior Guard, which is a planetary defense force(notice the lack of capitalization. We went over this already, a planetary defense force can be that...but it doesn't necessarily have to be a PDF, which again we already covered.), is an Imperial Guard formation.

Ergo, I win!

Charlie Sheen...

That's Leonard Nimoy with Nunchucks to you, sir!

This whole issue highlights my biggest beef with the perception of Cadia as the "generic Imperial Guard".

They're far from the 'norm' for the Imperial Guard, but the norm would be boring or depressing so Cadians instead get used as the 'stereotypical' Imperial Guard.

Cadia, by and large, is a terrible representation of an Imperial world. Everything about the planet is geared towards one thing: keeping the filth spewing from the Eye of Terror in.

Kanluwen wrote:This whole issue highlights my biggest beef with the perception of Cadia as the "generic Imperial Guard".

To be fair, the difference must not be as big as you may think, which is why a lot of people can interpret the few details we have in slightly different ways.

Here's my current interpretation, adapted to the quotes posted in this thread: Each Imperial world has its PDF Regiments for internal security and protection against outside incursion. By and large (and owing to IG regiments being tithed from the best PDF), these are not as well trained and equipped as the Guard, but there are many exceptions. In warzones with IG presence, PDF regiments are always subjected to and integrated into the Munitorum's command structure. Cadia isn't different in that regard.

However, where Cadia is different is that it seems as if, due to an ongoing state of war and the Imperial Guard having assumed full command of local defense, the population gets drafted into the IG directly and the standing PDF (Interior Guard) gets formed from its ranks rather than the other way around, whereas 90% of the Cadian Shock Troops still rotate out for duty in other war zones all across the Imperium - both to provide the Munitorum with many regiments of superiorly disciplined soldiers as well as to receive veterans when the surviving units return from such a campaign, making sure that Cadia retains a large number of battle-proven troops even in peacetime whilst never committing all of its forces to some situation elsewhere, lest the Gateway World may become vulnerable to assault.

There, this should bring everything in line with each other without violating the established meaning of the planetary defense force term (capitalization isn't that important, it seems, for I've often seen it written in lower characters - I believe even the 5E rulebook writes it so, though I'd have to take a look to be sure).

Kanluwen wrote:

Lappie wrote:At no point did I ever mention that the Interior were exactly the same as all other PDF, that would be slowed. I was simply saying they are used as the PDF. Kan seems to have got all frustrated for no real reason over this.

Saying any 2 PDF are exactly the same would be really stupid becuase they arn't.

And yet you got all huffy about 'generalizing'.
The Interior Guard is not a PDF. That's the point that you and Emperor's Faithful aren't comprehending, no matter how simply I've explained it.

They are not. They are recruited from within the Imperial Guard regiments that Cadia provides. That's why it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten".

So if the Interior Guard is recruited from among the Cadian soldiery that means that the Interior Guard, which is a planetary defense force(notice the lack of capitalization. We went over this already, a planetary defense force can be that...but it doesn't necessarily have to be a PDF, which again we already covered.), is an Imperial Guard formation.

Ergo, I win!

So you're saying that Cadia's PDF is not a Planetary Defence Force, but a planetary defence force, and the spelling (sorry, not spelling, capitalization, LOL) makes a difference worth fighting for 4 pages.

You're right. You win the Internetz. Gratz.

Lappie wrote:At no point did I ever mention that the Interior were exactly the same as all other PDF, that would be slowed. I was simply saying they are used as the PDF. Kan seems to have got all frustratted for no real reason over this.


Saying any 2 PDF are exactly the same would be really stupid becuase they arn't.

I do now realise that founding a chapter on cadia may be a little extreme but it's the IoM... they've done worse before, moving moons, exterminatus, need I go on.

It's not extreme, just pointless.
There are reputedly 20 chapters dedicated to the defense of the Cadian Gate already (Astartes Praeses) and of those 20 1 has been wiped out and another has gone rogue leaving 18 left. Adding the numerous chapters who would assist Cadia in it's time of need (SW for example are fairly nearby to Cadia and have fought there many times)

Alkasyn wrote:
So you're saying that Cadia's PDF is not a Planetary Defence Force, but a planetary defence force, and the spelling (sorry, not spelling, capitalization, LOL) makes a difference worth fighting for 4 pages.

You're right. You win the Internetz. Gratz.

Since you keep cropping up and sniping at me, I'm going to assume you have some kind of grudge. This amuses me greatly, but I figure rather than engaging you in the same kind of shenanigans you're up to, I will instead educate you and anyone else who was confused by my point.

The point that you are not comprehending with the 'PDF' thing is important when it comes to dealing in details. Details matter, as does context.

To give an example:
An Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Regiment based on a planet like Nemesis Tessera is devoted solely to defending the planet. That makes them a 'planetary defence force'.
That, however, does not make them a PDF.

PDF(capitalized) refers to a specific organization, which is fairly standardized across the entirety of 40k's fluff. It is a trained, semi-professional, volunteer(for the most part) force whose equipment and training is the responsibility of the Imperial governor for the planet in question.
Cadia's Interior Guard/PDF/whatever you want to call it is not that. Cadia's Interior Guard is drawn from their core of Shock Troops, and is a permanent formation which is equipped the same as a Cadian Shock Troop regiment.

So yeah. There is a difference, and Cadia does not have a 'PDF'. They have a planetary defence force, which can literally mean anything

Essentially this is a semantics argument.
The Interior Guard is a force that defends the planet.
Whereas the PDF of Average planet 1 is made up of volunteers from the citizenry.

Whole lot of semantics going on here. Planets other than Cadia also call their PDF Interior Guard.

There you go then...

If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

romegamer wrote:If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

If anyone asks "Is this fluffy", they clearly care about other people's opinion.

You can do whatever the hell you want with your army, but 40k is a two person game. If you make an army entirely to annoy a certain portion of the gamer base--you're only hurting yourself in the long run.

purplefood wrote:Essentially this is a semantics argument.

Not quite. Kanluwen is wrong, which in itself is unusual, but has fallen back on semantics to keep a pretence of being correct.

S'all cool bro.

There are tons of chapters dedicated to protecting the Cadian Gate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Not quite. Kanluwen is wrong, which in itself is unusual typical, butand has fallen back on semantics to keep a pretence of being correct.

Fix't.

No, I'll be fair to him. Kanluwen is usually pretty solid on his stuff. A lot of the time I don't even have to post becuase he's already answered the OP conclusively.

I'm just busting chops, although his attention to detail does start to get a little wonky when discussing a favored faction.

He is the male Melissia.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

I wouldn't go that far, KC.

Nothing said really contradicts my statement of there being misinformation all stemming back to the fact that Cruddace fethed up with the last book. Nothing within contradicted the earlier established organizational information, it simply used an acronym that is associated with a specific organization and shouldn't be used except in the most generic of terms.

romegamer wrote:If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

No one is saying that, they are answering the question of 'is this idea fitting in the universe that we play?', the answer is no.

This is the background thread for discussing issues with the background of the 40k universe.

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing said really contradicts my statement of there being misinformation all stemming back to the fact that Cruddace fethed up with the last book.

Hmm. You also said that about the Storm Trooper count - apparently just because you don't like their original number (which never changed, so it seems to be an issue of personal preferences).

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing said really contradicts my statement of there being misinformation all stemming back to the fact that Cruddace fethed up with the last book.

Hmm. You also said that about the Storm Trooper count - apparently just because you don't like their original number (which never changed, so it seems to be an issue of personal preferences).

Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

It's pretty clear that he copied/pasted earlier fluff. It's why we have "hot-shot lasguns" again, when the rules he copy/pasted make mention of "Hellguns".

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

There are regiments of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Thus, there is more than one Stormtrooper Regiment.

Kanluwen wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

There are regiments of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Thus, there is more than one Stormtrooper Regiment.

Duh. There's only one Imperial Guard Storm Trooper Regiment. This is all Cruddace ever wrote, and this is how it's been since 2E.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

There are regiments of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Thus, there is more than one Stormtrooper Regiment.

Duh. There's only one Imperial Guard Storm Trooper Regiment. This is all Cruddace ever wrote, and this is how it's been since 2E.

No, his statement is there is one Stormtrooper Regiment. The fact that Taros makes mention of Stormtrooper Companies that are in the upper 2ks/low 3ks for designators--there's more than one Regiment.

Kanluwen wrote:No, his statement is there is one Stormtrooper Regiment. The fact that Taros makes mention of Stormtrooper Companies that are in the upper 2ks/low 3ks for designators--there's more than one Regiment.

The statement is made in the entry for the Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, though, where it fits perfectly.

As far as the company numbers are concerned, I remember having seen that discussion elsewhere, but it can easily be explained without creating a contradiction. For example, the numbers could be progressive (when the 1st gets wiped out, it doesn't get resurrected with the same name), or that this is a trick to fool enemy intelligence and conceal their true number (stuff like this gets done in RL military as well). Sadly, we know little about the regiment's internal structure, or how much its traditions deviate from Munitorum standards.

Simply put, the problem is that Cruddace just copy/pasted the majority of fluff on Stormtroopers from the Codex from two editions ago. The Codex prior to now was quite light on fluff for unit types.

There has been more than one reference to Stormtrooper Regiments in the Black Library's stuff. It's also been mentioned in, as I mentioned, Orders of Battle before.

When Stormtroopers were originally being fluffed out, the idea was that they were a "Special Forces organization" that existed and was parted out.
They've retained the parted out bit, but the scale of 40k has grown to the point where a single Regiment existing is so completely ridiculous that it's silly. When some warzones(Cadia, for example, had around 8 Stormtrooper Companies deployed to it. That's not counting the Kasrkin either) have almost the entirety of a single Regiment in them at once...it's absurd and shows that Cruddace is a far worse "fluff writer" than Ward will ever be.

Kanluwen wrote:Simply put, the problem is that Cruddace just copy/pasted the majority of fluff on Stormtroopers from the Codex from two editions ago. The Codex prior to now was quite light on fluff for unit types.

3E and 4E were both not very thick with fluff, at least from the books I've seen - so I actually welcome having older fluff resurface. Also makes the setting look more consistent than rewriting stuff all the time...

Kanluwen wrote:There has been more than one reference to Stormtrooper Regiments in the Black Library's stuff.

Probably. But Black Library also wants to tell us that (amongst other lulzworthy things) Marines use multilasers, Terminators do backflips, Sisters have something like a "time off" and the Ecclesiarchy has its own battleships. "Alternative worlds", as George Mann said.

Kanluwen wrote:It's also been mentioned in, as I mentioned, Orders of Battle before.

But that's Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Different story (though I'd be curious about how they are recruited). Or do you have other examples?

Kanluwen wrote:They've retained the parted out bit, but the scale of 40k has grown to the point where a single Regiment existing is so completely ridiculous that it's silly. When some warzones(Cadia, for example, had around 8 Stormtrooper Companies deployed to it. That's not counting the Kasrkin either) have almost the entirety of a single Regiment in them at once...

I wouldn't say so. It's really not like the entire galaxy is at war, and given how the Munitorum operates, Storm Troopers are part of the "escalation" strategy, which requires some major stuff going on before they would be deployed. I still don't think that there are that many simultaneous battles all across the Imperium that could be compared to Armageddon, Vraks or Cadia.

In the Orders of Battle that we've seen, Storm Trooper companies are much less prevalent than Marine companies (the ratio on Armageddon was 1:10 iirc), which further gives us a hint of how rarely they are deployed.

Kanluwen wrote:it's absurd and shows that Cruddace is a far worse "fluff writer" than Ward will ever be.

Now that's really harsh!

Kanluwen wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:
So you're saying that Cadia's PDF is not a Planetary Defence Force, but a planetary defence force, and the spelling (sorry, not spelling, capitalization, LOL) makes a difference worth fighting for 4 pages.

You're right. You win the Internetz. Gratz.

Since you keep cropping up and sniping at me, I'm going to assume you have some kind of grudge. This amuses me greatly, but I figure rather than engaging you in the same kind of shenanigans you're up to, I will instead educate you and anyone else who was confused by my point.

I dont have anything against you I just don't like people who are full of themselves and can never admit they're wrong, instead referring to strawmans.(i.e falling back to semantics, ortography and grammer to prove a point) I also dislike trolls.

Do you fit that definition?

Btw, I don't need you educating me. Cheers

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

That would explain why they keep holding hands on the ignore list

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Simply put, the problem is that Cruddace just copy/pasted the majority of fluff on Stormtroopers from the Codex from two editions ago. The Codex prior to now was quite light on fluff for unit types.

3E and 4E were both not very thick with fluff, at least from the books I've seen - so I actually welcome having older fluff resurface. Also makes the setting look more consistent than rewriting stuff all the time...

That's the thing. There WAS no fluff, outside of novels, on Stormtroopers in 4E.

Kanluwen wrote:There has been more than one reference to Stormtrooper Regiments in the Black Library's stuff.

Probably. But Black Library also wants to tell us that (amongst other lulzworthy things) Marines use multilasers, Terminators do backflips, Sisters have something like a "time off" and the Ecclesiarchy has its own battleships. "Alternative worlds", as George Mann said.

Yes, let's throw the completely ridiculous examples out there as the definitive examples, right?
There's a reason nobody, who wants to be taken seriously in any discussion about fluff, cites Cain or Goto for fluff references.

Kanluwen wrote:It's also been mentioned in, as I mentioned, Orders of Battle before.

But that's Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Different story (though I'd be curious about how they are recruited). Or do you have other examples?

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, let's throw the completely ridiculous examples out there as the definitive examples, right?
There's a reason nobody, who wants to be taken seriously in any discussion about fluff, cites Cain or Goto for fluff references.

"Taking seriously" is in the eye of the beholder - the people who do cite them simply do so because they really do believe what they say, and if I'd get a Euro for every time somebody cites Cain as proof for why Sisters are "available" I could probably retire.

I've thrown in these obviously ricidulous examples in as a (hopefully) indisputable demonstration that BL books aren't really reliable when it comes to fluff, and that they claim a lot of stupid things due to a deliberate lack of oversight (if what the authors say is true) on part of GW. Even Abnett makes mistakes, however minor they are, so who's to say that whatever novel you are referring to should be closer to the truth than the actual GW Codex?

Oftentimes, these minor mistakes are simply not perceived as such. Be it because that book's author is a personal favorite, or because that book's idea (subjectively) sounds better than what GW says. This is a trap that all people who like to research canon in a setting, me and you included, are prone to falling into.

Kanluwen wrote:Negatory. The Orders of Battle mention Stormtrooper Company units, not their specific affiliation.

Which OoB do you mean, now? You said Inquisitorial Storm Troopers before. Anyways, unit numbers don't really have any significance.

Kanluwen wrote:Armageddon, whilst considered important, may not have been considered the appropriate place for an offensively oriented unit(the Stormtroopers) to be utilized in a defensive role.

Space Marines aren't exactly defensively oriented either, and Armageddon saw about 15.000 of them. If Storm Troopers would be a numerous resource, they would likely be deployed simply to "have the boots on the ground", so to say. There's no reason to hold them back unless they were rare.

Plus, it's not like there wouldn't still be the "cop out" with the nigh-identical but much more numerous Grenadier formations.

Kanluwen wrote:Rather than the intelligent thing and utilizing the Multimelta Sentinel in existence from FW, he creates the Hellhound.

Waitwaitwait. Isn't the Hellhound as old as 2E? I remember having loved it in the ancient Final Liberation PC game already, and that's from '97.

Kanluwen wrote:Rather than use the Vulture, he creates the Vendetta. And of course, he also resurfaced the asinine "hotshot" lasgun.

I'll give you those two - though these are still just our subjective opinions. I still consider Ward's stuff way more offensive.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

Damn, and here I thought I was being kind of harsh. He likes his fluff, he's not fanatically in love with it.

Omegus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

Damn, and here I thought I was being kind of harsh. He likes his fluff, he's not fanatically in love with it.

It was meant as a compliment. The both know their background but can both draw some strange conclusions sometimes.

Only possible reason for a Space Marine Chapter to not recruit form Cadia would be the fact that its too close to the eye of terror, meaning mutations in the geneseed could increase when implanted on such individuals.

On the other hand, some Chapters could prefer this (more psykers or other special units).

If you had read the thread, you may have realized that one, that was pretty much been said, and two, that there's more than one reason.

romegamer wrote:If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

You guys are correct, I was wrong and misunderstood the context and purpose of the discussion

Do it! That's the whole reason GW made it so there was 1000 chapters so gamers could make up their own fluff etc and invent new chapters.

monkeyh wrote:Do it! That's the whole reason GW made it so there was 1000 chapters so gamers could make up their own fluff etc and invent new chapters.

This is what happens when you don't understand the question, or if you join the thread late, therefore missing reasons given against the idea. Sure, make your own random chapter, don't expect people to be all happy and jolly when you mess with established fluff.