I remember there was a thread awhile back about JotWW and the new FAQ, that since it is a psychic shooting attack, do you still need to roll for hit?
There were many arguements from both sides... I just want to know if its a YES or NO, and how TOs at major tournaments(NOVA, etc) are going to rule it.

Sorry posted this in the wrong section. MOD can you move it to YMDC?

From what I understand, it's still very much in contention... for my 2 cents, I'd say you don't have to roll to hit though.

You don't roll to hit, I don't believe that has ever been in contention? You do need a valid target though

completely RAW, it must roll to hit because it isn't given permission to Auto-hit and it doesn't use any mechanisims that cause auto-hits.


for the power that Jaws has against certain armies, its only fair for it to have to roll to hit.

damn still very inconclusive...

I wonder how TOs at Wargamescon ruled it?

Grey Templar wrote:completely RAW, it must roll to hit because it isn't given permission to Auto-hit and it doesn't use any mechanisms that cause auto-hits.


for the power that Jaws has against certain armies, its only fair for it to have to roll to hit.

By RAW, JotWW isn't a shooting attack at all. You never actually designate a target, but just draw a line from point A (your rune priest) to point B.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:completely RAW, it must roll to hit because it isn't given permission to Auto-hit and it doesn't use any mechanisms that cause auto-hits.


for the power that Jaws has against certain armies, its only fair for it to have to roll to hit.

By RAW, JotWW isn't a shooting attack at all. You never actually designate a target, but just draw a line from point A (your rune priest) to point B.

I belive it is defined as a PSA.

Double checking, you're right, it is defined as a PSA. However, I have seen that exact argument that it isn't because there's no specific target.

Seems as if the prevalent way to play it is that you roll to hit for the very first model (the "target"). If it hits, then any other valid model behind the first model in its path is also hit as well.

BTW, it's JotWW, not JaWWW...or are you talking about a completely different power?

jy2 wrote:Seems as if the prevalent way to play it is that you roll to hit for the very first model (the "target"). If it hits, then any other valid model behind the first model in its path is also hit as well.

BTW, it's JotWW, not JaWWW...or are you talking about a completely different power?

JaWWW=JaWs of the World Wolf, I spelled out the J, got rid of the o and t.... but if you prefered JotWW, I changed it.

The two lines of thought basically boil down to:

1) YES- Jaws is a PSA and is given no specific exemption from making a 'to-hit' roll

2) NO- Jaws specifically tells you how to resolve the power in the codex, which supercedes the basic PSA rules.

FWIW if your group uses the INAT FAQ, no roll is required.

Exemptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes.

Layman terms: If the codex tells you how to do something different then the normal rules for a psychic shooting attacking, you follow the codex.

So in this instance, follow the codex for determining how to employ Jaws of the World Wolf.

the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

The codex exception is not required to say it does not need a to hit roll. If the codex exception gives a different way to employ the psychic shooting attack, you use that method of employing, i.e., place a line, etc, etc. You have no grounds that the codex exception must specifically tell you that the power hits automatically. The rule on page 50 tells you that the exceptions will be in the codexes, THAT IS IT.

Look at the general rule for psychic shooting attacks in checking range to target. The codex exception does not specifically tell you not to check range. So now you must check range to target for JotWW because it specifically does not tell you NOT to check range? No, the codex exception gives you a different method to employ the psychic shooting power.

Apply the same litmus test to the other general rules for psychic shooting attacks and codex exceptions. JotWW does not specifically tell you that you do NOT need to roll to wound. So you now you need a roll to wound? Blood Lance does not check to range and does not specifically tell you that you do NOT check to range. So now you need to check range for Blood Lance?

The standard for codex exceptions is not to specifically address each and every general rule exception, but just tell you to follow the damn rules as written for the exception.

The point is in contention. There's no reason to argue in every thread it comes up in except to say it's in contention.

Short answer: Ask your T.O. The topic is still very much in debate.

At Wargamescon EVERY Space Wolf player that I played rolled to hit with their Jaws. That seems to be how its played at major tournies (at least from my prospective).

Now I am totally biased since I hate the wolf codex, and am glad to see it not doing as well lately, but I say if its a big problem having to make the extra dice roll....feel free to take any of the other overpowered psychic abilities in your codex for your undercosted, up to 4 HQ choice.

Sorry...I just really hate listening to wolf players complain about ANYTHING.

BR - yet it does nto state you do not roll to hit. It gives no other method to use - so you still roll to hit.

"Instead of rolling to hit" "hits automatically" or other similar language would do. JotWW has neither.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - yet it does nto state you do not roll to hit. It gives no other method to use - so you still roll to hit.

"Instead of rolling to hit" "hits automatically" or other similar language would do. JotWW has neither.

Pretty much this. It rolls to hit for more or less the same reasons that Eldritch Storm scatters. What the rules imply but do not say is not written.

Being a SW player but only ever using Living Lightning and Tempest Wrath, what exactly is being proposed to roll to Hit against with Jaws?

The rule seems prety clear that anything the line touches is affected. That seems to be a pretty clear substitution for the general rule for a psychic shooting attack needing a roll to hit. Afterall a roll to hit represents an attack or shot hitting the target so when the rule specifically tells you that anything the line touches is affected and must take an initiative test, the enemy model has been hit by the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the other general rules that are not specifically mentioned in the rule for Jaws like Ramses mentions?

Pulled from another thread:

1. Check LOS and Pick target
2. Check range
3. Roll to hit
4. Roll wounds
5. Take saves
6. Remove casualties

If we need to have exact exclusions from the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, Jaws does not have specific exclusions for steps 1-4 above and therefore would never work.

However if we accept the rule as written as the exclusion to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks it works just fine;

Pyschic test is passed:

24" line is placed, first model it affects is considered target model and must be in LoS

This covers general rules 1 & 2.

Anything the line touches must take an initiative test.

This covers general rule 3.

Models failing the initiative test are removed from play with no type of save allowed.

This covers 4-6.

The INAT FAQ explicitly states that no roll to hit is required for JoWW. Adepticon will use this ruling. My local gaming group came to the same conclusion after a great deal of discussion.

So I assume Nova, BAO, Ard Boyz will follow INAT?

thats up to the individual TOs.


It is a GW run tournament so they might be limited to GWs FAQ.

non-GW locations will most likely use the INAT, but it isn't a sure thing.

wolvesoffenris wrote:The INAT FAQ explicitly states that no roll to hit is required for JoWW. Adepticon will use this ruling. My local gaming group came to the same conclusion after a great deal of discussion.

But GW FAQ state all PSA needs to roll to hit unles it states otherwise. INAT is not official GW FAQ.

No, but it probably the closest thing out there and deals with alot of issues that GW does not answer. Like the vague statements in GW FAQs concerning PSAs ;-)

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:At Wargamescon EVERY Space Wolf player that I played rolled to hit with their Jaws. That seems to be how its played at major tournies (at least from my prospective).

Now I am totally biased since I hate the wolf codex, and am glad to see it not doing as well lately, but I say if its a big problem having to make the extra dice roll....feel free to take any of the other overpowered psychic abilities in your codex for your undercosted, up to 4 HQ choice.

Sorry...I just really hate listening to wolf players complain about ANYTHING.

Not sure who ruled that way, or if it was a choice made by the wolf players, but WGC followed the INAT, and they weren't supposed to roll to hit. I was told not to roll for mine at the Narrative table.


@ SonsofVulkan: It really boils down to finding out if your TO will be using INAT, or the GW FAQ as interpreted with common sense, or with RAW tunnelvision that doesn't even take RAW into account.

Marthike wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:The INAT FAQ explicitly states that no roll to hit is required for JoWW. Adepticon will use this ruling. My local gaming group came to the same conclusion after a great deal of discussion.

But GW FAQ state all PSA needs to roll to hit unles it states otherwise. INAT is not official GW FAQ.

First of all, it does not say ALL psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit. Quote the FAq without adding your own words to it.

The FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks which if you read the actual rules on page 50 of the BRB it specifically tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes.

Seriously people need to read the FAQ and the damn BRB.

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes

they are not adding anything in... maybe you should try reading...
i dont think you need to roll to hit, but i can see where people are coming from after reading this...

While I agree the point is somewhat moot, I do think that having to roll to hit the first targeted model brings JotWW down to earth somewhat. If Codex Space Wolves was a weak codex, lacking in decent options, then making things harder for the players of such armies would be unreasonable. As it is probably one of the more generous codices in terms of options available and pricing, I think enforcing a roll to hit is actually fair enough. I mean is it so crippling to a SW player?

Cmon guys JotW isnt that overpower... except against I3 or lower models. Let all just follow the INAT and no rolls to hit!

Cmon guys. JotW is exactly THAT overpowered. Let us change the INAT so it follows the actual rules.

Jaws was a poorly concieved power. It is totally overpowered vs certain armies and totally useless against others.


its not like its any one thing which makes Jaws so awful, its everything considered together.

It can snipe individual models: powerful combined with Low I upgrade models.

It is unfair to low I enemies: this makes it a fairly army specific power, so Nids and Orks get the shaft and no one else. again, not horrible but when combined with everything else its just too much.

you can have 4 models with Jaws in the army: this just exasperates the other problems.



Rolling to hit is the best thing to do for the sake of Game balance.

Interesting to see that the weak to hit roll argument needs to be augmented under the guise of, "what is good for the game".

Jaws is easily one of the weakest powers, next to Fury, that is 100% situationally based on an opposing army. List tailoring four rune priests is just as countered with any other army list tailoring against Jaws.

Here is a novel concept, don't worry about 1 model out of an entire army, blaming it for your crap playing if you cannot adjust around them. And facing 4, as I mentioned is list tailoring, so list tailor right back.

Brother Ramses wrote:Interesting to see that the weak to hit roll argument needs to be augmented under the guise of, "what is good for the game".

Jaws is easily one of the weakest powers, next to Fury, that is 100% situationally based on an opposing army. List tailoring four rune priests is just as countered with any other army list tailoring against Jaws.

Here is a novel concept, don't worry about 1 model out of an entire army, blaming it for your crap playing if you cannot adjust around them. And facing 4, as I mentioned is list tailoring, so list tailor right back.

That's interesting, coming from a Space Wolf player and you in particular.

JotWW is a poorly designed power. It uses an out-of-game mechanic for targeting and an unconventional method of removing models that because of its targeting is quite powerful against certain armies. With the overall power of a Space Wolf army in general, I can fully understand why some people would want to limit this power. The new GW FAQ seems to enforce this. Whether it's a weak argument or "for the good of the game" is irrelevant. As the FAQ ruling stands, it seems obvious that a to-hit roll is required.

I think it's listed as a PSA just so you can't use it more than once in a turn with some casters. Imagine say JotWW, Living lightning, JotWW in the same turn...

BR - the argumetn is a lot stronger than "but, but, exceptions!" that you keep attempting.

NIce ad hominem as well. Shocked.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - the argumetn is a lot stronger than "but, but, exceptions!" that you keep attempting.

NIce ad hominem as well. Shocked.

Single black pot looking for single black kettle for ironic and hypocritical conversation.

Seriously the argument for to roll to hit has gone through so many transformations it is pretty pathetic.

1. Not codex exception.
2. Does not specifically say it does not roll to hit or hits automatically.
3. Specific versus general.
4. Good for game balance.

While the argument for codex exception has not changed once because it covers everything that has been proposed against it. Good for game balance/Space Wolves hate is just the icing on the cake as it signifies the counter argument circling the toilet bowl as it finally gets flushed for the crap argument that it has been. To address each of the above;

1. It is the very definition of a codex exception because it is the rule as written in the codex telling you how to employ the psychic shooting attack outside the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

2. The rules for the codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks NEVER specifies how the codex exception will be written, just that they will tell you how to employ the psychic shooting attack different then the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. "Hits automatically" or "no roll to hit needed" are not the standard set by page 50 of the BRB.

3. The FAQ is a FAQ for the general rules for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. They do not override the set rules for codex exceptions. Psychic shooting attacks need a roll to hit is the general, exceptions to the general rules will be found in the codex is general, Jaws rule is the specific.

4. LAWLZ! Haters gonna hate.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandor wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Interesting to see that the weak to hit roll argument needs to be augmented under the guise of, "what is good for the game".

Jaws is easily one of the weakest powers, next to Fury, that is 100% situationally based on an opposing army. List tailoring four rune priests is just as countered with any other army list tailoring against Jaws.

Here is a novel concept, don't worry about 1 model out of an entire army, blaming it for your crap playing if you cannot adjust around them. And facing 4, as I mentioned is list tailoring, so list tailor right back.

That's interesting, coming from a Space Wolf player and you in particular.

JotWW is a poorly designed power. It uses an out-of-game mechanic for targeting and an unconventional method of removing models that because of its targeting is quite powerful against certain armies. With the overall power of a Space Wolf army in general, I can fully understand why some people would want to limit this power. The new GW FAQ seems to enforce this. Whether it's a weak argument or "for the good of the game" is irrelevant. As the FAQ ruling stands, it seems obvious that a to-hit roll is required.

So you posted the Webway Portal thread? How does that apply at all? The limited edition webway portal dimensions are not supported by the rules set in the Dark Eldar codex for webway portals. How is that relevant?

The power that states what happens when it works.

For PSAs that means successfully rolling a psychic test and (now) successfully rolling to hit.
Unless your venue uses INAT.

BR - sigh.

My argument has remained consistent: ALL PSAs roll to hit, unless they state an exception.

Jaws doesnt. It rolls to hit. QED

I've seen JoTWW used to successfully snipe my Apothecary, when I was playing Dark Angels against my friend's Space Wolves. Against I4, it's a 33% chance (after the psychic test) to instant-kill whatever pesky special character you want. So it's still pretty fething good against most armies.

Can we save the "Is Jaws Overpowered?" talk for another thread where it is relevant, please?

The question here is simple: Does JoWW require a hit roll? Any answers that are not a "yes" or "no" or explanation of same are off topic.

The OP seems to have taken a position and Brother Ramses and nosferatu1001 certainly have theirs ;-) Can't we all just get along?

Because otherwise, I forsee a lock....

jmurph wrote:Can we save the "Is Jaws Overpowered?" talk for another thread where it is relevant, please?

The question here is simple: Does JoWW require a hit roll? Any answers that are not a "yes" or "no" or explanation of same are off topic.

The OP seems to have taken a position and Brother Ramses and nosferatu1001 certainly have theirs ;-) Can't we all just get along?

Because otherwise, I forsee a lock....

This.

The thread should be locked as it is the same arguments going back and forth since the FAQ was released. Anyone needing to ask should just search and they will get a plethora (si el guapo) of threads with both sides in it.

TOs from BAO, Nova, and all future major tournaments should post here whether or not they follow the INAT.

I vote that unless it specifically says that they do not roll to hit, they must roll to hit as normal for a PSA. This is based on 2 aspects:

1) The ability rule (iirc) does not explicitely state that it does not require a roll to hit, which would be needed regardless of the target or how the models are targeted (as it does not use a template, the rules for which are clearly explained by the BRB and, as far as I know, the only BRB exceptions to the shooting to-hit).

2) The scope of the ability is severe enough (ID, instead of causing 1 wound like other shooting attacks) that it should be more difficult to kill a model using it. This is imo, and not RAW, but it does seem remarkably easy to kill a high powered unit using this ability fairly reliably.

On a side note, if this was a Yes or No question, it seems like it would be much better served as a poll instead of an open discussion.

jmurph wrote:Can we save the "Is Jaws Overpowered?" talk for another thread where it is relevant, please?

The question here is simple: Does JoWW require a hit roll? Any answers that are not a "yes" or "no" or explanation of same are off topic.

The OP seems to have taken a position and Brother Ramses and nosferatu1001 certainly have theirs ;-) Can't we all just get along?

Because otherwise, I forsee a lock....

I apologize for my part in that, I was only trying to refute the argument that it doesn't need a nerf "because it's horrible against anything other than Tyranids and Orks."

As for the "automatically hitting" vs "needs to hit", the power does not state that it automatically hits. There are plenty of psychic shooting attacks that do explicitly state that they automatically hit, so the fact this one doesn't speaks volumes. The only reason I can think of that would justify it hitting automatically, in the absence of the power explicitly stating that it does, is that JoTWW uses a pseudo-template that consist of a single narrow line. Something akin to a flamer template, stretched out to 24" and with almost no width. At least, that's what the wording of the power suggested to me.

So you have to ask yourself, is it a pseudo-template? Or a shooting attack that targets specific models in a straight line?

Personally, in terms of game balance in friendly games, I'd prefer it not hit automatically, in the spirit of making things more enjoyable for both parties. But in competitive play, I can see it going either way.

I've always seen it as a pseudo-template, so there's my position on it.

That said, I've never even used Jaws in a game, Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane are so much better all-round.

Is there any PSA that says the exact words, does not roll to hit? It seems that people are intentionally trying to add a catch phrase that does not exist to a power, not just JotWW, that already tell you how to use it. A large tournament rules group, INAT, has looked at the all of the rules and has given their guidance on how the vague GW FAQ is used, and people still turn their noise at it. It is like watching that scene from 'Meet tht Fockers.' "You can't say bomb on an airplane."

There are psychic powers that "automatically hit".

merlin96 wrote:Is there any PSA that says the exact words, does not roll to hit?

Yes, most of the Tyranids PSAs.

there are also PSAs which use the flamer template.

thats an indirect way of saying it doesn't roll to hit.

Didn't know about the Tyranid ones, good to know. Here is another one, is there any other shooting attack, weapon, that says to draw a line to show the models that are effected? I'd call that an indirect way to say it does not roll to hit.

merlin96 wrote:Didn't know about the Tyranid ones, good to know. Here is another one, is there any other shooting attack, weapon, that says to draw a line to show the models that are effected? I'd call that an indirect way to say it does not roll to hit.

Eldar Vibro Cannon, which does require a roll to hit.

Again, ask your T.O. for a concise answer. People are still arguing over it, and far better it be cleared up before the tournament then during the final game when it makes a huge difference.

I agree with Fxeni. Regardless of which camp you are it's best to either ask your opponent in a friendly game and come to some sort of agreement or simply ask a T.O before the tournament starts.

And for the record I'm in the camp that believes it needs to roll to hit because nowhere in rules does it say JotWW doesn't roll to hit.

Can anyone please direct me to the rule that says that a codex exception to needing a roll to hit is labeled as, "automatically hits" or "no to hit roll needed"?

Don't bother, because you can't. It doesn't exist and it is biased RAI that some have set as the standard for a codex exception. Here is what the BRB tells you,

Page 50, Psykers

The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes.

That is it. No imaginary specific wording, no precisely worded exclusions. Just that the exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the Codexes.

Furthermore you are shown clear as day examples in the SW codex,

JotWW- codex exception
Living Lightning- no codex exception
Fury of the Wolf Spirits- both

Jaws doesn't give exemption from rolling to hit in any way shape or form.


the standard requirement from the main rule set is that all PSAs must roll to hit.

specific > general. that means the codex MUST give specific exemption from the main rules set for there to be no roll required.

Jaws does NOT give such an exemption in any way.

1.Psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit (unless otherwise specified).
2. JotWW is a psychic shooting attack
3. There is no exception in the SW codex that allows you to ignore 1.

It's pretty much that simple IMO. Drawing a line does not mean you don't have to roll to hit. Yes it is an exception to the way psychic shooting powers usually work (in that you don't have an AP value, you don't cause wounds, etc) but there is nothing in text that says you don't have to roll to hit.

Anyways, that's my contribution to the thread. Will leave it to others to form their own opinions.

So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

BR - you keep stating an assertion (Jaws is an exception) but are still entirely unable to actually back that assertion up. In other words you're not advancing a valid argument.

We've never said that it MUST say "automatically hits", however it must say SOMETHING to exempt it rom needing to hit. Show that something, or concede.

INAT's latest rulings have been debatable at best.

JotWW is a PSA, PSA require a roll to hit according the the latest FAQ.
Is there even a debate here?

Nope, not really.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

It doesn't state that it automatically hits, so I would say yes, you have to roll to hit and then wound when using that power.

The big difference between JoTWW and Blood Lance is Blood Lance affects units, not individual models. So if the line traces through 4 members of the same unit, JoTWW affects all four members, whereas Blood Lance could only cause a maximum of one wound.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

It doesn't state that it automatically hits, so I would say yes, you have to roll to hit and then wound when using that power.

The big difference between JoTWW and Blood Lance is Blood Lance affects units, not individual models. So if the line traces through 4 members of the same unit, JoTWW affects all four members, whereas Blood Lance could only cause a maximum of one wound.

So what your saying is I have to roll to hit units that are already hit????

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

Isn't the section I bolded enough to make you think they are already hit? If something suffers a hit, at what point do you roll to hit it? It seems redundant, and this "automatically hit" garbage is disgusting. Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

Additionally, I know Jaws says it is a psychic shooting attack, but it also outlines how you affect models under the line right? (someone please post the rules for it) This is the same for blood lance only converted to units.

No, what we are saying is that it is one to hit roll.

if there are x models along the line, and you hit, you hit all x of them. if you miss, you miss all of them.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

I think you are mistaken. The rules say psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, the rules have always said this, the FAQ actually doesn't change anything in that regard, just reminds people that they do have to roll to hit. The burden is upon you now, making the claim that it doesn't roll to hit.

"But," you say, "it tells us to draw a line, and that can be used to substitute the roll to hit." Well, that is all fine and dandy, but please, as you are making the claim that a line is a substitute for a roll to hit, show me where in the rules does it say "Drawing a line is a substitute to rolling to hit." Sure, a line is similar to a template. But the rules for templates do not also say lines.

As you will be hard pressed to find a rule outside of "How can a line miss?" stating that your line does not roll to hit, you have to fall back to the last known rule, that states something along the lines of "A Psychic shooting attack acts like other shooting attacks." So now, tell me, where does it say my storm bolter has to roll to hit?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

It doesn't state that it automatically hits, so I would say yes, you have to roll to hit and then wound when using that power.

The big difference between JoTWW and Blood Lance is Blood Lance affects units, not individual models. So if the line traces through 4 members of the same unit, JoTWW affects all four members, whereas Blood Lance could only cause a maximum of one wound.

So what your saying is I have to roll to hit units that are already hit????

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

Isn't the section I bolded enough to make you think they are already hit? If something suffers a hit, at what point do you roll to hit it? It seems redundant, and this "automatically hit" garbage is disgusting. Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

Additionally, I know Jaws says it is a psychic shooting attack, but it also outlines how you affect models under the line right? (someone please post the rules for it) This is the same for blood lance only converted to units.

They are still apples and oranges. Blood Lance and JoTWW have completely different wordings. The only similarity between the two powers is that it works on a straight line - past that the two powers are completely different.

I'll concede your point on Blood Lance though - checking the terminology used for blasts and templates, they use the same terms - i.e. models under the blast are "hit". This is, however, somewhat easy to overlook when reading the power, and a consistency problem on GW's part. (Some powers inflict "hits" and don't have weapon profiles, others have weapon profiles or don't inflict wounds but explicitly state they automatically hit.)

But the "automatic hit garbage", as you politely put it, is the terminology used in other psychic powers to denote they do not require a roll to hit. And when the power states it automatically hits, there's no room for argument or disambiguation. So it's not "garbage" as you put it, but rather the way GW should be doing things if they intend for a psychic power to not require a roll to hit. Especially with the latest FAQ, which states that psychic shooting attacks do require a roll to hit. I would think that it's fairly obvious that something of that nature would need to be present if the power does not need a roll to hit.

Also, it's not just Tyranid PSAs which have the "automatic hit" text - the Ork powers Frazzle and Zzap also explicitly state they automatically hit. So there's a bit more precedence for it's use than a single codex.

JotWW specifically tells you that models the line touches must take a initiative test. It specifically makes an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks by telling you that what the line touches must take an initiative test.

Please point out where being touched by a line and taking an initiative test is any part of the general rules for psychic shooting attacks? It is the EXCEPTION.

And it still hasn't been answered what you are rolling to hit with JotWW.

The entire rule is a codex exception because nothing ever hits anything with the power. Whatever the line TOUCHES must take an initiative test. The first model AFFECTED by the power is in effect the target model. At no time whatsoever does JotWW hit an enemy model because the entire rule is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

it also doesn't say it has to target anything either

Bluewulf wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

it also doesn't say it has to target anything either

Neither does it day to NOT check range or NOT roll to wound, so JottW must also do those as well? Nope, because the entire rule is a codex exceptipn to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses wrote:the entire rule is a codex exceptipn to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, it is what happens when the psychic shooting attack works as intended.
It never mentions rolling a psychic test either, does it?
You still need to roll that one, right?

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:the entire rule is a codex exceptipn to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, it is what happens when the psychic shooting attack works as intended.
It never mentions rolling a psychic test either, does it?
You still need to roll that one, right?

Good point that it still follows he rules for using a a psychic power in that there is no exception to taking the psychic test nor is there an exception to Perils of the Warp. However we are talking about the existing exception to a psychic shooting attack not the general rules normallyfollowed on page 15.

JPong wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

I think you are mistaken. The rules say psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, the rules have always said this, the FAQ actually doesn't change anything in that regard, just reminds people that they do have to roll to hit. The burden is upon you now, making the claim that it doesn't roll to hit.

"But," you say, "it tells us to draw a line, and that can be used to substitute the roll to hit." Well, that is all fine and dandy, but please, as you are making the claim that a line is a substitute for a roll to hit, show me where in the rules does it say "Drawing a line is a substitute to rolling to hit." Sure, a line is similar to a template. But the rules for templates do not also say lines.

As you will be hard pressed to find a rule outside of "How can a line miss?" stating that your line does not roll to hit, you have to fall back to the last known rule, that states something along the lines of "A Psychic shooting attack acts like other shooting attacks." So now, tell me, where does it say my storm bolter has to roll to hit?

Oh Jpong, I am not saying that the line causes the power to hit, I am saying in the power's explanation that "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type."
So right there I see that the power says that any enemy unit that is in the lines path suffers a hit. Not has a chance to be hit, might be hit, could be hit, but suffers a hit. I have an execption because I can plop down my codex and point to the part where it says this.

Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit. I was also asking for someone to post the actual power for Jaws because I do not own the codex and wish to see the full explantion of it.

And CiaranAnnrach why would they put that it "automatically hits" in the explantion if the rule says "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." At that point they are being redundant. Because the part about "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." makes the automatically hit part obsolete. Would they not have said that any enemy unit in the lines path could suffer a strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type? Or something to the same effect.

I look at it this way, I cast blood lance, pass (WOHOO!! ) I then see how long the lance will go, roll 4d6 (random number) 14inches I then decide to lay down the line in a certain direction. "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." I check how many units are on that path and they suffer a hit.

I also think that there is more similarity to these two powers other then the line. but that is niether here nor there. Maybe I should start another thread about blood lance, but it has been done before and I think these two powers will have the same ruling if ever FAQ'd.

My god, even after GW FAQ's it people still demand otherwise.
Also, INAT means diddly squat. INAT isn't remotely perfect and has been wrong on many things. But before going to INAT, I believe we should follow GW's rules.

Is JOTWW a PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK?
If yes, refer to FAQs on how PSAs need to roll to hit.

If no, continue this debate and ignore the fact that JOTWW is written to be a PSA by GW, the creators of this game.

Whether a power is under/overpowered holds no merit in debating game mechanics.

So all Psychic Shooting Attacks require a roll to hit? No exceptions allowed at all?

Chrysis wrote:So all Psychic Shooting Attacks require a roll to hit? No exceptions allowed at all?

What does the FAQ say? Does it list any exceptions?

I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

Bluewulf wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

it also doesn't say it has to target anything either

The SW FAQ makes it abundantly clear the the first model touched by the line is the target model.

"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"
Followed by
"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

...the Nid dex has various PSAs that state 'this is a PSA that automatically hits.'

Are you trying to say that the other PSAs, in the same codex, which lack this type of wording, also do not need to roll to hit?

What about "This power is is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 24" that only affects vehicles. If the Machine Curse hits, the target vehicle automatically suffers a single glancing hit.".... with 'if it hits'.
or for PSAs which take the form of blast markers
"If when using this power the Librarian fails his Psychic test, place the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Librarian - in this case the template will not scatter."

How about Codex BA, that has PSAs which take the time to say "this is a PSA that automatically hits." all the PSAs which don't say this, in the same dex, should automatically hit?.........

Etc etc etcetctectectec

As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

And CiaranAnnrach why would they put that it "automatically hits" in the explantion if the rule says "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." At that point they are being redundant. Because the part about "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." makes the automatically hit part obsolete. Would they not have said that any enemy unit in the lines path could suffer a strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type? Or something to the same effect.

I'd think that one would be obvious. It's so you don't get arguments like this one popping up everywhere about whether or not it needs to roll to hit. Had they just said, "Blood Lance automatically hits every unit in the lines path with a strength 8, AP 1 lance" - then there would be absolutely no need for us to even be having this conversation right now.

As it stands, its wording is somewhere between clear and ambiguous, and leaves people open to interpret it how they want. This is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the major problems inherent with GW's rule sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

Umm, No? The Avenger is a template, and templates automatically hit. They have clear set rules on this.

Warp Rift and Vortex of Doom are both blasts, and scatter. Your roll to hit is your scatter roll. Were you under the assumption that they never scattered?

I don't have the C:CSM codex atm, but if it's another template/blast weapon, then you're just throwing out more red herrings. I don't see the point in bringing those up - they all use a well-defined, well known mechanism for hitting that mirrors their non-psychic shooting equivalents. JoTWW doesn't, hence the problem.

Warp Rift is a template, so doesnt scatter but auto hits

nosferatu1001 wrote:Warp Rift is a template, so doesnt scatter but auto hits

Damnit, you're right. I must have been looking at the Vortex of Doom entry in the C:GK and thought it was Warp Rift. My bad.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

And CiaranAnnrach why would they put that it "automatically hits" in the explantion if the rule says "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." At that point they are being redundant. Because the part about "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." makes the automatically hit part obsolete. Would they not have said that any enemy unit in the lines path could suffer a strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type? Or something to the same effect.

I'd think that one would be obvious. It's so you don't get arguments like this one popping up everywhere about whether or not it needs to roll to hit. Had they just said, "Blood Lance automatically hits every unit in the lines path with a strength 8, AP 1 lance" - then there would be absolutely no need for us to even be having this conversation right now.

As it stands, its wording is somewhere between clear and ambiguous, and leaves people open to interpret it how they want. This is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the major problems inherent with GW's rule sets.

Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit. That is also part of this problem people seems to think unless it specifically says automatically hits, then they have to roll but I am showing you where in this particular rule that there is an execption. People have asked repeatedly for people to show where it says it hits, I have thrown down the exact wording of the rule and yet people are still stuck on automatically hits, and refuse to anwser, when is a hit not a hit? They also refuse to show anywhere in the BRB or FAQ's that automatically hit is the only way to hit without a BS roll.

Burden of proof has been laid at everyones feet to disprove what I have stated here, I have shown an execption inside the rules with the actual rules and explanations inside the BRB and BA codex.

Also as it stands I think it is not so ambiguous seeings how the only problem people are having is they do not see automatically hits. Which still leaves the question when is a hit not a hit?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit. That is also part of this problem people seems to think unless it specifically says automatically hits, then they have to roll but I am showing you where in this particular rule that there is an execption. People have asked repeatedly for people to show where it says it hits, I have thrown down the exact wording of the rule and yet people are still stuck on automatically hits, and refuse to anwser, when is a hit not a hit? They also refuse to show anywhere in the BRB or FAQ's that automatically hit is the only way to hit without a BS roll.

Burden of proof has been laid at everyones feet to disprove what I have stated here, I have shown an execption inside the rules with the actual rules and explanations inside the BRB and BA codex.

Also as it stands I think it is not so ambiguous seeings how the only problem people are having is they do not see automatically hits. Which still leaves the question when is a hit not a hit?

Please read my posts a bit more carefully, instead of skipping over parts of them. Particularly...

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
I'll concede your point on Blood Lance though - checking the terminology used for blasts and templates, they use the same terms - i.e. models under the blast are "hit". This is, however, somewhat easy to overlook when reading the power, and a consistency problem on GW's part. (Some powers inflict "hits" and don't have weapon profiles, others have weapon profiles or don't inflict wounds but explicitly state they automatically hit.)

IF you had, you'd realize I'm not trying to claim Blood Lance requires a roll to hit, but rather complaining about the inconsistencies on GW's part in how they describe the thing. All I said in my previous post was, if GW had chosen to use the "automatic hit" text in describing the power instead of how they did it, not only would the meaning of the power remain the same, there would be zero room for misunderstanding or arguments such as these. So, feel free to step down from the soapbox, at least for Blood Lance.

terranarc wrote:As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

A FAQ to the BRB is not more specific then a codex exception as listed on page 50. So, wrong and please try again.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Please post said rules so I can see them. Additionally, I do believe that vibro cannons are a special piece of wargear that only ever deal with themselves. So no, no where in the rules for this game is a hit not a hit, unless you can explain how vibro cannons effect the entire game. Special set of circumstances do not make it a constant. It's an execption like the ones we are discussing.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear and its GW's fault.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear
and its GW's fault.

Logically, if the rules were not ambiguous, then there never would have been a disagreement over it. The fact there was a disagreement (and continues to be one) implies that it is ambiguous. My point was and still remains, the "automatic hit" text is not garbage, as it prevents threads like this. That was the point I was trying to make, which was directly due to your assertion that it was garbage. No attempts to derail the thread, deflect from it, or side track it - at least not consciously; everything was in response to your own assertions.

Having just looked up Vibro Cannons, I'll provide to you the skinny on how they operate. Vibro cannons: Eldar artillery weapon, page 45. "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. "

The parallel is that both Vibro Cannons, JoTWW, and Blood Lance are shooting attacks which operate on all units (models, in JoTWW's case) that a drawn line from the firing model crosses. Vibro Cannons explicitly state in its rules that a roll to hit must be made before drawing the line, and if the firer misses the line is not drawn. (Precedence.) The GW FAQ state that psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, which since JoTWW and Blood Lance are both psychic shooting attacks, means they require a roll to hit. Vibro Cannons provide the precedence required to work out how you roll to hit for a shooting attack that hits every unit/model in a straight line.

This invalidates my previous understanding of Blood Lance, as I assumed (incorrectly) that it and JoTWW were unique in using a straight line. (I'm not an Eldar player, and my friend who plays Eldar didn't field them when I played him when I still lived in Memphis.) I had assumed the roll to hit would have occured after the line was drawn. So, DarknessEternal, you know what, I did not look at it that way.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Chrysis wrote:I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

Umm, No? The Avenger is a template, and templates automatically hit. They have clear set rules on this.

Warp Rift and Vortex of Doom are both blasts, and scatter. Your roll to hit is your scatter roll. Were you under the assumption that they never scattered?

I don't have the C:CSM codex atm, but if it's another template/blast weapon, then you're just throwing out more red herrings. I don't see the point in bringing those up - they all use a well-defined, well known mechanism for hitting that mirrors their non-psychic shooting equivalents. JoTWW doesn't, hence the problem.

I know that. That's why I said it's absurd.

But terranarc stated, even after clarification that PSAs MUST roll to hit, and there can be no exceptions. Those were all examples of powers that I believed everyone agreed would not roll to hit. He has also clarified that even though he firmly believes this position, he doesn't actually play it that way.

terranarc wrote:

Chrysis wrote:So all Psychic Shooting Attacks require a roll to hit? No exceptions allowed at all?

What does the FAQ say? Does it list any exceptions?

So you roll to hit for Thunderclap too?

I mean, it is also a PSA.

Chrysis wrote:
I know that. That's why I said it's absurd.

But terranarc stated, even after clarification that PSAs MUST roll to hit, and there can be no exceptions. Those were all examples of powers that I believed everyone agreed would not roll to hit. He has also clarified that even though he firmly believes this position, he doesn't actually play it that way.

Ahh. I see what you are saying now.

The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear
and its GW's fault.

Logically, if the rules were not ambiguous, then there never would have been a disagreement over it. The fact there was a disagreement (and continues to be one) implies that it is ambiguous. My point was and still remains, the "automatic hit" text is not garbage, as it prevents threads like this. That was the point I was trying to make, which was directly due to your assertion that it was garbage. No attempts to derail the thread, deflect from it, or side track it - at least not consciously; everything was in response to your own assertions.

Having just looked up Vibro Cannons, I'll provide to you the skinny on how they operate. Vibro cannons: Eldar artillery weapon, page 45. "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. "

The parallel is that both Vibro Cannons, JoTWW, and Blood Lance are shooting attacks which operate on all units (models, in JoTWW's case) that a drawn line from the firing model crosses. Vibro Cannons explicitly state in its rules that a roll to hit must be made before drawing the line, and if the firer misses the line is not drawn. (Precedence.) The GW FAQ state that psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, which since JoTWW and Blood Lance are both psychic shooting attacks, means they require a roll to hit. Vibro Cannons provide the precedence required to work out how you roll to hit for a shooting attack that hits every unit/model in a straight line.

This invalidates my previous understanding of Blood Lance, as I assumed (incorrectly) that it and JoTWW were unique in using a straight line. (I'm not an Eldar player, and my friend who plays Eldar didn't field them when I played him when I still lived in Memphis.) I had assumed the roll to hit would have occured after the line was drawn. So, DarknessEternal, you know what, I did not look at it that way.

Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Brother Ramses wrote:

terranarc wrote:As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

A FAQ to the BRB is not more specific then a codex exception as listed on page 50. So, wrong and please try again.

Ramses, if you have no rebuttal to cold hard logic then please leave the thread.

JotWW is a PSA, PSA's require a roll to hit. This was cemented in the FAQ. In your own words "try again".

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear
and its GW's fault.

Logically, if the rules were not ambiguous, then there never would have been a disagreement over it. The fact there was a disagreement (and continues to be one) implies that it is ambiguous. My point was and still remains, the "automatic hit" text is not garbage, as it prevents threads like this. That was the point I was trying to make, which was directly due to your assertion that it was garbage. No attempts to derail the thread, deflect from it, or side track it - at least not consciously; everything was in response to your own assertions.

Having just looked up Vibro Cannons, I'll provide to you the skinny on how they operate. Vibro cannons: Eldar artillery weapon, page 45. "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. "

The parallel is that both Vibro Cannons, JoTWW, and Blood Lance are shooting attacks which operate on all units (models, in JoTWW's case) that a drawn line from the firing model crosses. Vibro Cannons explicitly state in its rules that a roll to hit must be made before drawing the line, and if the firer misses the line is not drawn. (Precedence.) The GW FAQ state that psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, which since JoTWW and Blood Lance are both psychic shooting attacks, means they require a roll to hit. Vibro Cannons provide the precedence required to work out how you roll to hit for a shooting attack that hits every unit/model in a straight line.

This invalidates my previous understanding of Blood Lance, as I assumed (incorrectly) that it and JoTWW were unique in using a straight line. (I'm not an Eldar player, and my friend who plays Eldar didn't field them when I played him when I still lived in Memphis.) I had assumed the roll to hit would have occured after the line was drawn. So, DarknessEternal, you know what, I did not look at it that way.

Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Unlike Blood Lance or Jaws, Vibro Cannons are also explicitly exempt from rules concerning line of sight, which for instance Jaws is explicitly not. In it's essence, Vibro Cannon represents good rules, where all exceptions are covered. Jaws of the World Wolf must represent poorly written rules if and only if it is not meant to roll to hit - since the relevant exceptions aren't given.

Mahtamori wrote:
Unlike Blood Lance or Jaws, Vibro Cannons are also explicitly exempt from rules concerning line of sight, which for instance Jaws is explicitly not. In it's essence, Vibro Cannon represents good rules, where all exceptions are covered. Jaws of the World Wolf must represent poorly written rules if and only if it is not meant to roll to hit - since the relevant exceptions aren't given.

About the poor writing, of the original rule and the two FAQs, one-hundred percent right. House rule is the only solution, still.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Not really, on the "automatically hit" bit. GW uses the "automatically pass" style of writing in other places as well - Fearless, for example, states "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests". ATSKNF states "...automatically pass tests to regroup". There is a decent amount of precedence for GW using this language choice. It's how GW indicates that such rolls are not needed, unless the rules for resolving a power or test explicitly state to do something else instead of making the roll (templates), or state that no roll to hit is required (blasts).

The problem with Jaws and Blood Lance is that they don't tell you to roll to hit, but they also don't tell you to skip the roll to hit. You are arguing that in the absence of the power stating that it requires a roll to hit means its an exception to the FAQ, which states all PSAs require a roll to hit. We're saying there's nothing in the text of the power that allows it to skip this roll, and the FAQ supports us. The previous sticking point of how do you resolve the power if you add the roll to hit - and I'll admit, I had no clue about it either which never sat right with me - has been resolved, thanks to those who pointed out Vibro Cannons. Vibrocannons provides us the necessary precedence to clarify that one sticking point. Now it's purely a point of does the absence of text imply an exception to a hard rule.

As for your assertion that Vibro Cannons are special in that they explicitly state they have to roll to hit - well, you're half right. They are special, but not in that they have to roll to hit. If I'm understanding the rules right, and Eldar players who are more familiar with their rules please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you can have several vibro cannons in a single squad. No matter how many vibro cannons are in the squad, you only draw one line - even if all of them hit. Similarly, even if all but one miss, you still draw the line. Each additional vibro cannon in the squad increases the strength of the weapon by 1, and essentially provides greater reliability for the gun to hit. This intricacy in how to resolve multiple vibrocannons firing within the same squad is an intricacy that Blood Lance and JoTWW do not share. If you consider this, it's not all that unreasonable that the PSAs didn't include similar text.

Backfire wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Hate to break it to you, but given GWs new FAQ Thunderclap scatters. It's a psychic shooting attack which uses blast marker and has a weapons profile and it does not have any sort of exception to normal shooting rules. It's the same deal as with Eldritch Storm. You see, they inherit all the rules regarding psychic shooting attacks, unless explicitly stated they have any form of exceptions.

Backfire wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Thundrclap is interesting. One could argue that a roll to hit is required prior to placing the blast, but that's not an argument I'd particularly feel like making. It'd perhaps be an interesting thought exercise, but in a game I wouldn't bat an eye if a Wolf player didn't roll to hit when using Thunderclap. (Well, I might at the fact he's using Thunderclap - aren't there better powers?) You do have a point, there are still some holes where the rules are ambiguous, and some amount of interpretation is necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:
Hate to break it to you, but given GWs new FAQ Thunderclap scatters. It's a psychic shooting attack which uses blast marker and has a weapons profile and it does not have any sort of exception to normal shooting rules. It's the same deal as with Eldritch Storm. You see, they inherit all the rules regarding psychic shooting attacks, unless explicitly stated they have any form of exceptions.

Thunderclap doesn't have a weapons profile. It states as part of the text how to resolve the hits. Eldritch Storm is a poor comparison, as it does have a weapons profile, and a range. Thunderclap has no range - the template is placed so that it is touching the Rune Priest.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
Not really, on the "automatically hit" bit. GW uses the "automatically pass" style of writing in other places as well - Fearless, for example, states "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests". ATSKNF states "...automatically pass tests to regroup". There is a decent amount of precedence for GW using this language choice. It's how GW indicates that such rolls are not needed, unless the rules for resolving a power or test explicitly state to do something else instead of making the roll (templates), or state that no roll to hit is required (blasts).

The problem with Jaws and Blood Lance is that they don't tell you to roll to hit, but they also don't tell you to skip the roll to hit. You are arguing that in the absence of the power stating that it requires a roll to hit means its an exception to the FAQ, which states all PSAs require a roll to hit. We're saying there's nothing in the text of the power that allows it to skip this roll, and the FAQ supports us. The previous sticking point of how do you resolve the power if you add the roll to hit - and I'll admit, I had no clue about it either which never sat right with me - has been resolved, thanks to those who pointed out Vibro Cannons. Vibrocannons provides us the necessary precedence to clarify that one sticking point. Now it's purely a point of does the absence of text imply an exception to a hard rule.

I am saying that with the absence of the statment roll to hit combined with the statement that anything in the lines path suffers strength 8, ap 1 hit. Makes it so it is an execption. Not that the absence alone makes it so I don't have to roll.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
As for your assertion that Vibro Cannons are special in that they explicitly state they have to roll to hit - well, you're half right. They are special, but not in that they have to roll to hit. If I'm understanding the rules right, and Eldar players who are more familiar with their rules please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you can have several vibro cannons in a single squad. No matter how many vibro cannons are in the squad, you only draw one line - even if all of them hit. Similarly, even if all but one miss, you still draw the line. Each additional vibro cannon in the squad increases the strength of the weapon by 1, and essentially provides greater reliability for the gun to hit. This intricacy in how to resolve multiple vibrocannons firing within the same squad is an intricacy that Blood Lance and JoTWW do not share. If you consider this, it's not all that unreasonable that the PSAs didn't include similar text.

When does a rule from one codex set a precendence for another? Like you said there is an intricacy to firing virbo cannons seeing how you can have more then one in a squad and only one every hits. This intricracy is not present with Jaws or BL, so how does this effect either of said rules? You say it is a presedence, I agree we differ in where the precedence occurs. I see that Vibro cannons are a unique set of circumstances, they ignore the normal rules for shooting and submit thier own. Just like Jaws and BL, they explain how they work and ignore the rules for normal PSA's.

With this much said, I think we are going to agree to disagree here. I will talk with TO's and other gamers at the time of the game and see where they come out on this.

Makes taking a chooser of the slain an easy choice

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

I am saying that with the absence of the statment roll to hit combined with the statement that anything in the lines path suffers strength 8, ap 1 hit. Makes it so it is an execption. Not that the absence alone makes it so I don't have to roll.

The absence of the statement does not imply that the roll is no longer required. Most of the psychic powers do not explicitly include the text "roll to hit", or "if the power hits." Under your logic, can we then say that every psychic shooting attack that doesn't state it must roll to hit is an exception to the FAQ? If no, then why not? Why does the absence of text for JoTWW/Blood Lance mean they are an exception, but for everyone else it doesn't? Do you see the logical inconsistency?

That the power says that anything in the lines path suffers a strength 8, ap 1 hit - vibro cannons also have that same line, but it's 1d6 hits and doesn't give the strength and AP. If stating "anything in the lines path suffers a X hit" meant that to fire the weapon you didn't require a roll to hit, then the rules for vibro cannons would contradict itself. Now, what that does imply is that after the initial roll-to-hit to see if the line is placed, additional rolls to hit against each unit are not necessary. But that's it. It doesn't support your argument at all.

There's nothing in the text that provides the exception. JoTWW and Blood Lance both require a single roll to hit, as per the FAQ. Vibro Cannons do not change whether or not the roll to hit is required, it just provides a precedence for when - that is, prior to drawing the line. This does not negate or contradict anything in the text of those powers. And as I've already pointed out, GW uses the text "automatically pass/hit", "instead of rolling to hit", "do not roll to hit. Instead...", or some other text that makes it abundantly clear what is going on when they are indicating that no roll is required. So, how do you justify the lack of similar text in JoTWW/Blood Lance? If they wanted these powers to skip the roll to hit, they would have said "Instead of rolling to hit, draw a line...." - but they don't.

When does a rule from one codex set a precendence for another? Like you said there is an intricacy to firing virbo cannons seeing how you can have more then one in a squad and only one every hits. This intricracy is not present with Jaws or BL, so how does this effect either of said rules? You say it is a presedence, I agree we differ in where the precedence occurs. I see that Vibro cannons are a unique set of circumstances, they ignore the normal rules for shooting and submit thier own. Just like Jaws and BL, they explain how they work and ignore the rules for normal PSA's.

With this much said, I think we are going to agree to disagree here. I will talk with TO's and other gamers at the time of the game and see where they come out on this.

The intricacy for firing multiple vibro cannons in a squad is justification for them going back to base-rule-book level explanation and detailing how you fire a weapon that impacts everything on a single line. Without that intricacy, would they have felt the need to include all of the roll-to-hit stuff? I don't know, maybe. I just know your argument that "vibro cannons are unique in stating they require a roll to hit, but my power doesn't say I have to, so I don't have to. And because it doesn't say I have to, I get to ignore this other rule in the FAQ that states I require a roll to hit, because I'm obviously an exception." is a really weak argument.

Night's Blood wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

terranarc wrote:As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

A FAQ to the BRB is not more specific then a codex exception as listed on page 50. So, wrong and please try again.

Ramses, if you have no rebuttal to cold hard logic then please leave the thread.

JotWW is a PSA, PSA's require a roll to hit. This was cemented in the FAQ. In your own words "try again".

Considering that you obviously have zero comprehension over the hierarchy of the rules in this game, you don't belong in this forum or any rules discussion.

The BRB are the general rules for this game. The codexes are specific rules that work within the BRB framework. A BRB FAQ applies the the general rules of the BRB, however does not overrule the specific rules of the individual codexes. This is reinforced by the BRB ruling that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Not really, on the "automatically hit" bit. GW uses the "automatically pass" style of writing in other places as well - Fearless, for example, states "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests". ATSKNF states "...automatically pass tests to regroup". There is a decent amount of precedence for GW using this language choice. It's how GW indicates that such rolls are not needed, unless the rules for resolving a power or test explicitly state to do something else instead of making the roll (templates), or state that no roll to hit is required (blasts).

The problem with Jaws and Blood Lance is that they don't tell you to roll to hit, but they also don't tell you to skip the roll to hit. You are arguing that in the absence of the power stating that it requires a roll to hit means its an exception to the FAQ, which states all PSAs require a roll to hit. We're saying there's nothing in the text of the power that allows it to skip this roll, and the FAQ supports us. The previous sticking point of how do you resolve the power if you add the roll to hit - and I'll admit, I had no clue about it either which never sat right with me - has been resolved, thanks to those who pointed out Vibro Cannons. Vibrocannons provides us the necessary precedence to clarify that one sticking point. Now it's purely a point of does the absence of text imply an exception to a hard rule.

As for your assertion that Vibro Cannons are special in that they explicitly state they have to roll to hit - well, you're half right. They are special, but not in that they have to roll to hit. If I'm understanding the rules right, and Eldar players who are more familiar with their rules please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you can have several vibro cannons in a single squad. No matter how many vibro cannons are in the squad, you only draw one line - even if all of them hit. Similarly, even if all but one miss, you still draw the line. Each additional vibro cannon in the squad increases the strength of the weapon by 1, and essentially provides greater reliability for the gun to hit. This intricacy in how to resolve multiple vibrocannons firing within the same squad is an intricacy that Blood Lance and JoTWW do not share. If you consider this, it's not all that unreasonable that the PSAs didn't include similar text.

Awesome, well reasoned point. Really refreshing to see something so well put versus the continous parroting of the BRB FAQ. Now here is where I see fault in your point;

The general rule for psychic shooting attacks is that they need a hit roll. That is plain as day. However the first paragraph on page 50 that explains how the general rules for psychic powers are EMPLOYED and how exceptions for said psychic powers are to be EMPLOYED will be found in the codexes destroys any argument that you must specifically dictate that you do not roll to hit, when you do not roll to hit.

The codex exceptions are not a checklist of exclusions from the general rules. It is an exception on how you employ the psychic power that differs from how you employ them normally. For example;

I point back to my previous remarks about JotWW not specifically telling you that you do not roll to wound despite that being a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. Your are not specifically excluded from rolling to wound, but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by determing how models are, "wounded" by failing an iniative test. JottWW does not specifically tell you not to declare a target but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by telling you that the first model the power affects will be treated as the target model.

This is how codex exceptions work. They do not go by a checklist telling you each and every general rule is specifically excluded. The proof lies in the comparison of the following three psychic shooting attacks;

Jaws of the World Wolf
Living Lightning
Fury of the Wolf Spirits

You can go through each one of them word by word and see where the codex exceptions are employed and where they are not and thus must follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:The absence of the statement does not imply that the roll is no longer required. Most of the psychic powers do not explicitly include the text "roll to hit", or "if the power hits." Under your logic, can we then say that every psychic shooting attack that doesn't state it must roll to hit is an exception to the FAQ? If no, then why not? Why does the absence of text for JoTWW/Blood Lance mean they are an exception, but for everyone else it doesn't? Do you see the logical inconsistency?

You are ignoring the very fact that the power says that any unit in the lines path suffers a hit. You, and this is the second time you have done this, are putting words into my mouth by saying that I think that since it does not say you must roll to hit it does hit. When in fact that is what you are thinking. You missed the second part of the quote where I say that because it says units under the lines path suffers hits. That right there is the execption. Plain as day! Not that it doesn't say I have to roll to hit. You are more interested in trying to make what I say out to be absurd and are missing the point.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:That the power says that anything in the lines path suffers a strength 8, ap 1 hit - vibro cannons also have that same line, but it's 1d6 hits and doesn't give the strength and AP. If stating "anything in the lines path suffers a X hit" meant that to fire the weapon you didn't require a roll to hit, then the rules for vibro cannons would contradict itself. Now, what that does imply is that after the initial roll-to-hit to see if the line is placed, additional rolls to hit against each unit are not necessary. But that's it. It doesn't support your argument at all.

Execpt that you are ignoring the first part of the sentence for Vibro cannons, "If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction." So right there it is specific to exclusively Vibro cannons. Your arguement that virbo cannons do in fact effect Jaws and BL are cut down by the very wording in Virbo cannons, because it is specifically callling out vibro cannons. Also you have to hit with at least one vibro cannon in order to fulfill the rest of the rules yes? So at the point to where you draw the lines there is already a hit! You cannot draw the line without the hit, where BL and Jaws tell you to draw the line without any precursors or requirement after taking the test. Where does the presence, again, in a rule in one codex relate specifcally to another in a different codex?

CiaranAnnrach wrote:There's nothing in the text that provides the exception. JoTWW and Blood Lance both require a single roll to hit, as per the FAQ. Vibro Cannons do not change whether or not the roll to hit is required, it just provides a precedence for when - that is, prior to drawing the line. This does not negate or contradict anything in the text of those powers. And as I've already pointed out, GW uses the text "automatically pass/hit", "instead of rolling to hit", "do not roll to hit. Instead...", or some other text that makes it abundantly clear what is going on when they are indicating that no roll is required. So, how do you justify the lack of similar text in JoTWW/Blood Lance? If they wanted these powers to skip the roll to hit, they would have said "Instead of rolling to hit, draw a line...." - but they don't.

Please see above

CiaranAnnrach wrote:The intricacy for firing multiple vibro cannons in a squad is justification for them going back to base-rule-book level explanation and detailing how you fire a weapon that impacts everything on a single line. Without that intricacy, would they have felt the need to include all of the roll-to-hit stuff? I don't know, maybe. I just know your argument that "vibro cannons are unique in stating they require a roll to hit, but my power doesn't say I have to, so I don't have to. And because it doesn't say I have to, I get to ignore this other rule in the FAQ that states I require a roll to hit, because I'm obviously an exception." is a really weak argument.

You are ignoring the text of the rule and what I have said multiple times with this statment.... The FAQ which is a part of the BRB reference the PSA stuff, right? Well you must read all of the PSA stuff, which includes how there are execptions. Pointing to the FAQ and saying but this say all PSA require rolls to hit, but ignoring the other half of the rules where it tells you execptions are listed in the codexes is faulty reasoning and feels like people are putting thier fingers in their ears and saying nope can't hear you! Especailly when I can point to a section where in the PSA that says that units under the line suffers a blah blah blah hit. Virbo cannons in fact have to hit before placing the line, BL and Jaws tells you to place the line. There is also another similarity between these rules you must roll to see if they work. Virbo cannon to hit roll, then if any hit, place a line blah blah blah. Jaws and BL take a psychic test place line blah blah blah.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Awesome, well reasoned point. Really refreshing to see something so well put versus the continous parroting of the BRB FAQ. Now here is where I see fault in your point;

The general rule for psychic shooting attacks is that they need a hit roll. That is plain as day. However the first paragraph on page 50 that explains how the general rules for psychic powers are EMPLOYED and how exceptions for said psychic powers are to be EMPLOYED will be found in the codexes destroys any argument that you must specifically dictate that you do not roll to hit, when you do not roll to hit.

The codex exceptions are not a checklist of exclusions from the general rules. It is an exception on how you employ the psychic power that differs from how you employ them normally. For example;

I point back to my previous remarks about JotWW not specifically telling you that you do not roll to wound despite that being a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. Your are not specifically excluded from rolling to wound, but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by determing how models are, "wounded" by failing an iniative test. JottWW does not specifically tell you not to declare a target but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by telling you that the first model the power affects will be treated as the target model.

This is how codex exceptions work. They do not go by a checklist telling you each and every general rule is specifically excluded. The proof lies in the comparison of the following three psychic shooting attacks;

Jaws of the World Wolf
Living Lightning
Fury of the Wolf Spirits

You can go through each one of them word by word and see where the codex exceptions are employed and where they are not and thus must follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

I've read the first paragraph of page 50, and I completely understand your point about how a codex can override the general rules. I'm just not seeing where in the text of JoTWW that it provides the exception to requiring a roll-to-hit. If it had something like "instead of rolling to hit", or "do not roll to hit" like the text does for resolving templates or blasts, then I'd have no problems with JoTWW not requiring a roll to hit. But as it is worded, any exception JoTWW has against the FAQ is an exception implied by a lack of text, which is something I have a hard time swallowing, particularly when most psychic powers don't state they require a roll to hit in their descriptions, either.

The problem I have with your comparison of JoTWW and the other two powers is that the other two inflict wounds, whereas JoTWW forces a characteristic test and does not wound, and only wounds require a to-wound roll. So in a sense you are specifically excluded from rolling to wound. It's the same logic that denies models hit by JoTWW from taking a cover save, but those are differences for the power's effects on models - not for how the power is fired, which is the point of contention here. That particular argument breaks completely if you consider Blood Lance, which is identical in how you fire the weapon, but instead of forcing a characteristic tests it inflicts wounds on a per-unit basis. Or are you of the opinion that you do have to roll-to-hit for Blood Lance and not for JoTWW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

You are ignoring the very fact that the power says that any unit in the lines path suffers a hit. You, and this is the second time you have done this, are putting words into my mouth by saying that I think that since it does not say you must roll to hit it does hit. When in fact that is what you are thinking. You missed the second part of the quote where I say that because it says units under the lines path suffers hits. That right there is the execption. Plain as day! Not that it doesn't say I have to roll to hit. You are more interested in trying to make what I say out to be absurd and are missing the point.

And you are ignoring the point that, if the roll-to-hit comes before placing that line, then that line never occurs, and no models are hit. The difference is I fully understand where you are coming from, and haven't ignored your point at all. You have, however, completely ignored my point, and continue to parrot that one fragment of text - a fragment of text that vibro cannons share. The text of the power does not preclude there being a roll to hit between "This power is a psychic shooting attack." and "Extend a straight line..."

Execpt that you are ignoring the first part of the sentence for Vibro cannons, "If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction." So right there it is specific to exclusively Vibro cannons. Your arguement that virbo cannons do in fact effect Jaws and BL are cut down by the very wording in Virbo cannons, because it is specifically callling out vibro cannons. Also you have to hit with at least one vibro cannon in order to fulfill the rest of the rules yes? So at the point to where you draw the lines there is already a hit! You cannot draw the line without the hit, where BL and Jaws tell you to draw the line without any precursors or requirement after taking the test. Where does the presence, again, in a rule in one codex relate specifcally to another in a different codex?

I'm not claiming vibro cannons affect Jaws and BL. I'm claiming the FAQ affects Jaws and BL, stating that they require a Roll to Hit, and that we can use vibro cannons as a model for how to apply the FAQ to Jaws and BL.

Please see above

Please, by all means, take your own advice.

You are ignoring the text of the rule and what I have said multiple times with this statment.... The FAQ which is a part of the BRB reference the PSA stuff, right? Well you must read all of the PSA stuff, which includes how there are execptions. Pointing to the FAQ and saying but this say all PSA require rolls to hit, but ignoring the other half of the rules where it tells you execptions are listed in the codexes is faulty reasoning and feels like people are putting thier fingers in their ears and saying nope can't hear you! Especailly when I can point to a section where in the PSA that says that units under the line suffers a blah blah blah hit. Virbo cannons in fact have to hit before placing the line, BL and Jaws tells you to place the line. There is also another similarity between these rules you must roll to see if they work. Virbo cannon to hit roll, then if any hit, place a line blah blah blah. Jaws and BL take a psychic test place line blah blah blah.

I've read that. I'm asking you where the exception is, and so far you have not given me a satisfactory exception. The same can be said for you, it really feels like you are just parroting that one line, and ignoring the possibility that the roll-to-hit comes prior to placing the line. Yes, vibro cannons tell you to roll to hit. But Jaws and BL don't tell you not to roll to hit. But neither does almost any other PSA - so again, why is the roll-to-hit implied for, say, Living Lightning but not Blood Lance?

Mahtamori wrote:

Backfire wrote:
However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Hate to break it to you, but given GWs new FAQ Thunderclap scatters. It's a psychic shooting attack which uses blast marker and has a weapons profile and it does not have any sort of exception to normal shooting rules. It's the same deal as with Eldritch Storm. You see, they inherit all the rules regarding psychic shooting attacks, unless explicitly stated they have any form of exceptions.

Hate to break it to you, but Thunderclap is not a Blast weapon (unlike Eldritch Storm, which is), hence, it does not use scatter. And clearly, it does not Roll to hit either. So there we have it - PSA which does not roll to hit.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Awesome, well reasoned point. Really refreshing to see something so well put versus the continous parroting of the BRB FAQ. Now here is where I see fault in your point;

The general rule for psychic shooting attacks is that they need a hit roll. That is plain as day. However the first paragraph on page 50 that explains how the general rules for psychic powers are EMPLOYED and how exceptions for said psychic powers are to be EMPLOYED will be found in the codexes destroys any argument that you must specifically dictate that you do not roll to hit, when you do not roll to hit.

The codex exceptions are not a checklist of exclusions from the general rules. It is an exception on how you employ the psychic power that differs from how you employ them normally. For example;

I point back to my previous remarks about JotWW not specifically telling you that you do not roll to wound despite that being a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. Your are not specifically excluded from rolling to wound, but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by determing how models are, "wounded" by failing an iniative test. JottWW does not specifically tell you not to declare a target but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by telling you that the first model the power affects will be treated as the target model.

This is how codex exceptions work. They do not go by a checklist telling you each and every general rule is specifically excluded. The proof lies in the comparison of the following three psychic shooting attacks;

Jaws of the World Wolf
Living Lightning
Fury of the Wolf Spirits

You can go through each one of them word by word and see where the codex exceptions are employed and where they are not and thus must follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

I've read the first paragraph of page 50, and I completely understand your point about how a codex can override the general rules. I'm just not seeing where in the text of JoTWW that it provides the exception to requiring a roll-to-hit. If it had something like "instead of rolling to hit", or "do not roll to hit" like the text does for resolving templates or blasts, then I'd have no problems with JoTWW not requiring a roll to hit. But as it is worded, any exception JoTWW has against the FAQ is an exception implied by a lack of text, which is something I have a hard time swallowing, particularly when most psychic powers don't state they require a roll to hit in their descriptions, either.

The problem I have with your comparison of JoTWW and the other two powers is that the other two inflict wounds, whereas JoTWW forces a characteristic test and does not wound, and only wounds require a to-wound roll. So in a sense you are specifically excluded from rolling to wound. It's the same logic that denies models hit by JoTWW from taking a cover save, but those are differences for the power's effects on models - not for how the power is fired, which is the point of contention here. That particular argument breaks completely if you consider Blood Lance, which is identical in how you fire the weapon, but instead of forcing a characteristic tests it inflicts wounds on a per-unit basis. Or are you of the opinion that you do have to roll-to-hit for Blood Lance and not for JoTWW?

You acknowledge that JotW has an exception to the to wound rolls because it does not cause wounds but cannot see the exception to a to hit roll when JotWW never hits a target?

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

That is the exception employed instead of rolling to hit as per the general rules. The psychic power affects units based on placement of a line that touches, NOT HITS, models that must then take an initiative test.

I haven't even acknowledged the vibro cannon argument as it specifically tells you to roll to hit before placing the line to actually hit models. Not to see if the line touches models, but to see if it hits models. That is the key difference.

Blood Lance is a little less clear because it does specify hits, however the instructions given by the rule itself still set it as a codex exception on how to employ a psychic shooting attack that partially does and doesn't follow the general rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

The FAQ specifically defines that a PSA to hit test is required between these two events.

BR - you're being disingenuous again. THe FAQ does specify a target for Jaws

JotWW does not roll to hit for the simple reason that the line already causes "hits".

If you have a psychic attack which causes wounds (like Mind War) you do not roll to wound, do you? Similarly, when you have psychic attack which causes "hits", you don't roll to hit, because the target was already "hit".

It is really that simple.

"........models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test........."

Seems simple really, the line touches the models, they must take an Initiative test, no mention of a roll to hit.

In the end, leave it for the TOs and in-house rules decisions to decide if they do or do not need to roll a hit.

do you roll to hit with murderous hurricane then?
it's a psychic shooting attack...? since it says the unit takes 3d6 hits it doesnt look like it.
similar jotww says each model affected takes a "hit" you also dont need to roll it seems

BoTW,

RAW, Yes, as it doesn't specificly state it auto hits.

Order of Operations are as follows:

Roll Psychic Test, Pass
Does Murderous Hurricane Hit, roll to hit
How many times does it hit, roll 3D6
Etc.

Toastedandy wrote:"........models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test........."

Seems simple really, the line touches the models, they must take an Initiative test, no mention of a roll to hit.

Lack of mentioning to-hit would imply it is required, as the ability is of a type that states this is the case.
Again, it also neglects to mention that psychic tests are needed (as well as to hit rolls). Do you ignore both? Ignoring one seems...shady

The rules for abilities list what happens when they WORK.

This mean psychic test and to-hit rolls for PSAs.

Unless you use INAT.

Oddly, SW actually DO have a PSA that does affect its target even if the to-hit fails. JotWW is not it.
(P.S. blast weapons do not roll to-hit as a rule)
Regardless, if it is a real debate at a table, always play the weaker interpretation for yourself.
If a Space Marine failing a to-hit roll costs you a game, nit-picking rules interpretations is not where your focus should be.

/shrug

Night's Blood wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

The FAQ specifically defines that a PSA to hit test is required between these two events.

You are a lost cause, not even going to bother since it has been rehased 1000x over.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - you're being disingenuous again. THe FAQ does specify a target for Jaws

Nos, you do not declare a target and check LoS with JotWW per the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. The FAQ itself is a codex exceptionto employ the psychic power that is different from declaring a target and checking LoS. Point out where I am being disingenuous.

General Rule:

Declare a Target/Check LoS

JotWW:

The first model the power will affect is treated as the target model and must be in LoS.

That is supernova-blindingly a different method of employing the psychic shooting attack versus the general rules. So again, how am I being disingenuous?

You keep on stating there is no target. That is a straight lie.

Additional problem with the interpretation that "JotWW needs roll to hit" is that what happens if the roll fails?

Some people assumes that the power then fails completely, but given that Murderous Hurricane already estabilishes that the power "works" even if it "fails to hit" (whatever that means), then it seems to me that JotWW would work even if you failed to hit.

Anyway, that's pretty irrelevant as it is pretty clear to me that powers like JotWW are not meant to roll to hit.

i dont know about the english codex, but the german one says jotww is a psa,therefore has to roll to hit.

you need to roll to hit the first target,anything else on the line is an auto hit.

and like posted before:

arch1angel wrote:Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes