+++
BEGIN EMERGENCY VOX LOG
TELEPATHIC DUCT: -N/A-
REF: -N/A-
AUTHOR: Machine-Spirit Designate BETA-583
REPORT TRANSMITTED: Explorator-Class Land’s Vision
DESTINATION: -ANY-
DATE:801.M35
+++
-SEVERE WARP TREMORS DETECTED-
+Damage report initialized…+
Hull Integrity: DAMAGED.
Life Support: DAMAGED.
Thruster Array: DAMAGED.
Weapons Systems: DESTROYED.
Weapon Redundancies: DESTROYED.
Navigational Array: DAMAGED.
Landing Struts: DESTROYED.
+Detecting Crew Life Signs…+
-MINIMAL-
+Proximity Sensors Are Detecting A Nearby Planetoid.+
+Navigational Array Finding Coordinates.+
-ERROR.-
+Atmospheric Analysis Computing...+
-Atmosphere: Approximately 70:30 N2:O2 Mix.-
+Navigational Redundant System Calculating Velocity …+
-Velocity: 4,500 KPS.-
+Navigational Redundant System Calculating Angle Of Approach …+
-Angle Of Approach From Perpendicular: 3 Degrees.-
-WARNING: 98.5% LIKELIHOOD OF DESTRUCTIVE IMPACT WITH PLANETOID.-
+Initializing Angel Of Approach Increase…+
-ERROR: Mass Of Transport In Excess Of Necessary Limits For Maneuver.-
+Proximity Sensors Have Detected Impact With Atmosphere.+
-Atmosphere: 71.583% N2, 28.045% O2, 0.118% Argon, 0.035% Carbon, 0.009% Helium, 0.210% Unknown Gases.-
-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 10 SECONDS.-
+Jettisoning Stasis Cargo Section.+
-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 7 SECONDS.-
+Initializing Angel Of Approach Increase…+
-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 4 SECONDS.-
-ERROR: Thruster Output Velocity Insufficient For Maneuver.-
-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 1 SECONDS.-
+++END EMERGENCY VOX LOG+++

Of the three dozen T’au that were collected by the explorers of the Adeptus Mechanicus vessel Land’s Vision, only two dozen survived the crash-landing onto the jungle death world δT-11035B, later to be renamed Erra, or Shadow. This moon was previously surveyed by the Land’s Vision on their way to Tau and dismissed as a jungle world devoid of ores or resources to further the cause of the Imperial war effort, with the lead Techpriest noting that the native fauna had a particular affinity for the servitor drones they had brought along to analyze the surface.

The T’au, separated from their tribes, wailed out in distress, and they nearly came to blows over old blood feuds when a local creature, a creature they later named an Or’au or Powerful Death, attacked the group, nearly killing them all. After their defeat of this creature and the ensuing feast, the remaining twenty-four remaining T’au recognized their similarities, and tenuously agreed to a truce while they attempted to survive their new home.

While the first few months nearly exterminated the new immigrants, over the years the T’au learned the weapons and cunning needed to survive in the jungle they named Hui’wern, the Hidden Deception. No longer could they see their enemies and wait for their approach as on the open plains of Tau. Instead, they learned to conceal themselves completely from their prey, and stalk it before closing for the kill, as the close-hanging vines and jagged trunks made spears and bows nearly useless.

After centuries, the shaky ceasefire had become a bond of brotherhood, uniting the few tribes on Erra so they could rely on each other against the frequent dangers of their home. While squabbles and wars between the tribes did rage occasionally, the constant threats of the jungles meant that only the foolish squabbled for long.

After nearly three millennium, the Tau upon Erra discovered the art of metallurgy, far after their distant cousins on their home world. Scraping what little nodules of crude iron and crystals they could find from the creature-infested caves that were scattered beneath the jungle floor, they learned how to refine and process their new alloys, passing them down from father to son, and further purifying and improving upon the weapons of their ancestors before passing them on.

Greatest of the new metalworkers was the warrior Yanoi’ii, and before he died he not only had raised bladework from a craft to an art, but had also discovered several processes that allowed the Erra’la to incorporate venoms from their slain prey into their blades, allowing them to become even more useful and treasured against the fauna of Erra. For his contributions to the tribes, his descendants were nominated as chiefs, to rule on disputes and to lead the tribes into battle united against more formidable monsters of the forest.

A few decades after the end of the Third Sphere of Expansion, the ship Aun’va and the Children of Fio’tyr came across a small jungle moon near the edges of their borders, on the far side of the Tau Empire from the Damocles Gulf. When their scanners first reported the lifesigns of T’au on the surface below, they dispatched a rescue party to save the presumed crew of a crashed ship. It was only after three of the eight Shas’la that were sent to check for signs of wreckage were killed swiftly and silently by humanoid figures that the T’au on the Aun’va began to realize the true extent of their discovery.

Within weeks, a ship arrived carrying the Ethereal Aun’tae. Skilled at speaking with and reasoning with even the most erratic of the Tau Empire’s various allies, Aun’tae relished the opportunity he was about to receive. Upon arriving on the surface though, Aun’tae heard the cries of an injured T’au,a nd the sounds of a struggling roaring beast. Bursting into a clearing, the Ethereal came upon the latest descendant of Yanoi’ii, Karra’ii, under attack by an Or’au.

As the Ethereal’s Shas’vre guards were unable to fire at the beast attacking Karra’ii, the Aun’tae gracefully dove forward, and rolled underneath the beast, thrusting his honor blade through the creature’s chest. After she got to her feet, Karra’ii regarded the Ethereal for a moment, and then in a swift motion drew a dagger and grabbed the Ethereals hand, tightly grasping the blade between their palms. Upon finishing the blood bonding with Aun’tae, the ethereal began to explain the full extent of the Greater Good and the Tau on their homeworld. Seeing an opportunity to escape the daily living hell of Erra, Karra’ii pledged the Erra’la in support of their long-lost cousins, and joined Aun’tae upon his ship.

Since that day, the Erra’la have migrated to the separate T’au septs, joining and melding with their brothers and their strategies. While some Shas’la may consider them to be erratic or primitive, none can dispute the grace at which they can execute Kauyon, and the ability for their blades to swiftly bring the Mont’ka upon an unsuspecting foe. In keeping with their traditions, the Erra’la send their young unblooded warriors to the jungle moon, alone and with only their ancestral blade, in order so that they may prove themselves against the beasts of their ancestors, and return a respected warrior.

This is a unit for Tau that I would like to propose, being a sort of elite, yet fragile CC unit for Tau.
As Darkprince would say, A glass sword.

Credit to darkPrince010 For helping me with ideas and clarification, as well as the excellent fluff.
They have the same physical characteristics of a Tau, but have adapted differently to be better at CC.

Characteristics-
Shadow Caste Warrior Erra'la
WS--BS--S-T--W--I---A--Ld--Sv
4-----3----3--3--1---4--2---7---4+

Infiltrate, Move through cover, Fleet

Erra'ui would get +1 WS, and Ld, as well as some goodies.

Wargear-
Models are armed with 2 Shadow daggers (CC weapons meaning +1 attack) and flare grenades (offensive nades) by default. They may exchange one for a pulse pistol for ? points or both for a honor blade for ? points, Which gives +2 S. The 'ui can take smoke grenades for 5 points. These can be used once a game to give a squad a +5 cover save for one turn. If in cover, it gives +1 to cover rolls. They also have the same Stealth field as Stealth Suits.
They also may purchase shock-slings for 5 points. these were previously used to entangle fleeing prey so they could be killed more easily. They have been re-outfitted by the earth caste to send a shockwave through the target, stunning them. A unit equipped with shock-slings gets +1 to sweeping advance rolls.

Composition-
6-12 Models per squad. 'ui for 5 (10?) pts.
Count as troops, but are 0-1 due to their small number.
Farsight Enclaves attract many more of these because of his tactical philosiphy, and as such get 0-3 instead.
Comments, ideas, and critisism are appreciated, and let me know if I missed anything. Names for the weapons appreciated

Note: this is a rough draft. I will edit when I get some advice.

The critic in me wants to tell you to just make a kroot, but I wont. Here are some random thoughts. The idea of creation seems a little odd. They just get lost on a planet and are now assassins? A grenade makes a poor close combat weapon. If they are assassins, where is their stealth?

I forgot to mention infiltrate, but I know that doesn't necessarily make them mega-ninja's or anything. But to be honest, there is a lot of stuff in the fluff that doesn't make sense in the rules. As for their creation, they adapted in a dark jungle for thousands of years. That would allow them to develop stealth to the point of instinct. The grenade is just to make them better in assaults.

No. Just no.

There's so much wrong from the start, but I don't want to be mean. It's just one of those ideas you probably should not do Yamgrenade.

Grenades make people batter at assaulting. I did not know that one yet. You know if you want something closer to fluff, you could try the honor guard that the tau keep pulling out. Don't make it a new caste, just a part of the ethereal caste.

nomotog wrote:Grenades make people batter at assaulting. I did not know that one yet. You know if you want something closer to fluff, you could try the honor guard that the tau keep pulling out. Don't make it a new caste, just a part of the ethereal caste.

This, if you're absolutely 100% driven by the overwhelming need to do this idea of 'Tau Assassin Ninjas'("Dark Katanas"? really?). Don't create a new Caste. Creating new 'factions' for all intents and purposes never really ends well.

Kanluwen wrote:No. Just no.

There's so much wrong from the start, but I don't want to be mean. It's just one of those ideas you probably should not do Yamgrenade.

Adding a "Just no" doesn't make you more credible, I don't see why people do it all the time. And would you mind telling me what is wrong with it?

nomotog wrote:Grenades make people batter at assaulting. I did not know that one yet. You know if you want something closer to fluff, you could try the honor guard that the tau keep pulling out. Don't make it a new caste, just a part of the ethereal caste.

The honor guard kinda suck...and did grenades change or something? Because I remember them making squads better in assault.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Grenades make people batter at assaulting. I did not know that one yet. You know if you want something closer to fluff, you could try the honor guard that the tau keep pulling out. Don't make it a new caste, just a part of the ethereal caste.

This, if you're absolutely 100% driven by the overwhelming need to do this idea of 'Tau Assassin Ninjas'("Dark Katanas"? really?). Don't create a new Caste. Creating new 'factions' for all intents and purposes never really ends well.

Dark Katana is a working name. I know it sucks. And what caste do you think they belong to? Certainly not ethereals. They are leaders, not fighters. Fire caste despise CC. Kroot are brutes (and not very brutish at that.) I'm not really focusing on them as "ultra ninja assassin tau omgwtfbbq," Just a close combat unit that is as specialized and Tau-ish.

Tau, period,despise close combat.

That, aside from suddenly 'creating' a new Caste that was some kind of...I don't know, genetic freakshow, is what is so silly.

Kanluwen wrote:Tau, period,despise close combat.

That, aside from suddenly 'creating' a new Caste that was some kind of...I don't know, genetic freakshow, is what is so silly.

They developed it out of necessity. And it isn't creating, it is discovering...how is it a genetic freak show? They are pretty much normal Tau, they just took a different path evolutionarily.

yamgrenade wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Tau, period,despise close combat.

That, aside from suddenly 'creating' a new Caste that was some kind of...I don't know, genetic freakshow, is what is so silly.

They developed it out of necessity. And it isn't creating, it is discovering...how is it a genetic freak show? They are pretty much normal Tau, they just took a different path evolutionarily.

Unknown to the crew of the ship, they had just indirectly created the 6'th caste of the Tau- The Shadow Caste. When the samples of the Tau were dumped, they miraculously found their way into the gravitational reach of a planet, and crashed onto the jungle world of Stolag. Luckily, they were the Hardy plains-dwellers of T'au, and became expert hunters of the jungle. They soon realized that to survive, they would have to change their tactics. They adapted to the close spaces and darkness of the jungle. They developed much more slowly than the unified castes, but at the time of their discovery, they had mastered stealth and assassination and had begun building handguns and handbows. They joined The Greater Good quickly, and have been serving The Tau Empire ever since.

Fire Warriors do not suddenly become 'ninjas', just because they were "dumped in a jungle world".

Especially considering that the Fire Caste dwells on a few swamp worlds, and hasn't become ninjas.

I actually haven't leaned the grenade rules yet. The idea that the tau despise close combat is a little exaggerated. The tau actually have a rather nice set of different melee weapons. They are all used by ethereal caste. That's why I suggest them.

I have two general ideas here. If all you want is a CC unit, I say try something with honor guard. Give them honor blades make them troops and allow them to be put in units of 6-12. Maybe steal some war gear from the eldar or the SM (re flavored)

If you are thinking more ninja like. Maybe something where an ethereal is rendered unable to lead (maybe they commit a crime or are a pyker) they drafted into the secret police and used as assassins. They would be deployed as single units. Maybe deep striking. Then give them a rule where they explode when die.

@ Kanluwen

Yes, as if a few years would do the same thing as thousands of years of early evolution.

@nomotog

The reason I avoid ethereal as melee is because the way they are worked out, Tau go into a rage when they die. If they died as often as these probably will, it wouldn't make sense. Them committing crimes makes no sense fluff-wise, as they are the most devoted to The Greater Good.

The Tau have no need for an 'assassin' caste as they have 'assassins' already.

It's the Pathfinders of the Fire Caste. They can get Railrifles for a reason.

yamgrenade wrote:@ Kanluwen

Yes, as if a few years would do the same thing as thousands of years of early evolution.

@nomotog

The reason I avoid ethereal as melee is because the way they are worked out, Tau go into a rage when they die. If they died as often as these probably will, it wouldn't make sense. Them committing crimes makes no sense fluff-wise, as they are the most devoted to The Greater Good.

Goodish point. Still the idea of a 6th caste just showing up by accident seems odd & it's so close to the fire caste too. Have you thought about just giving battlesuits some honor blades?

@Kanluwen
Again, I'm not focusing on them as assassins gameplay-wise, just fluff wise. They will just be a much needed CC unit, while still fitting in with the specialization aspect of Tau.

@ Nomotog

I have, and I don't think anyone would send battlesuits on a suicide mission armed just with +2 strength. They just now found them because they are on the edge of the dense star cluster of Tau space.

Or, instead of completely going away from established Tau fluff just so you can have something with swords...

Rework Pulse Carbines. They are, according to...well all the fluff the Tau have had since their inception, what the Fire Caste use for 'close quarters'.

Kanluwen wrote:Or, instead of completely going away from established Tau fluff just so you can have something with swords...

Rework Pulse Carbines. They are, according to...well all the fluff the Tau have had since their inception, what the Fire Caste use for 'close quarters'.

Maybe something like a shock bayonet? Have it improve their S by two points? Maybe subtracting a counter attack for each hit.

They don't need more strength, they need more WS and
I.

>As for their creation, they adapted in a dark jungle for thousands of years.
>they adapted in a dark jungle
>Dark Jungle
>Implying the jungle is permanently dark and has no photosynthesis.

Also, if you want Tau Jungle Fighters, take Kroot.

Dark as in dark below the canopy. I think that that is perfectly believeable. Hell, even on earth that happens. What is wrong with that?

Holy Kanluwen. Feel free to be a fluff lawyer, but at least know about the fluff you're lawyering...

Upon first Imperial contact with the Tau, at which point they were basically fishy neanderthals, they took genetic samples with them (All clearly stated in the Tau codex. This was on page 4). Tau also have a very fast evolutionary adaptation rate (Also stated clearly in the Codex, page 20). Given the fact the Tau homeworld was plagued by warp storms, which could very easily have blown one of the ships carrying the gene samples (which could be either just DNA samples or primitive T'au in stasis. It's never clearly stated either way) off course. It's completely conceivable that these evolving T'au might find the "distasteful" close-quarters fighting and hunting evolutionarily advantageous, and thus become adapted to it over the intervening three thousand years (During which the T'au on the homeworld developed everything from black powder to spaceflight and conquered all of the nearby sheltered worlds).

As for weapons, why is a Katana too ninjalike, when the entire Tau codex is full of scaled down Gundam suits? They draw several aspects of the codex from Oriental culture, just like the Golden Throne's occupant and Imperial gothic architecture draws from European culture. The name needs work, sure, but is the underlying idea sound for crunchy rules? Plus, if you read how the unit works, you'd be able to see that they aren't designed for smashing stuff like Assault Marines (12 I4 1W models with a 4+ save isn't a great option for going toe to toe with a dedicated CC squad), nor are they designed to kill squads like an Assassin (Pulse pistols are not going to kill everything, and only 2 A each at S3 means they'll do some wounds, but can't wipe squads without a 2 or 3 turn drawn-out fight). They offer a usable, limited melee screen for the Tau, as opposed to the meat shield horde of Kroot. They won't eat squads like other armies CC squads, but they can actually cope better than FW ever can in CC.

Back to fluff, the Ethereals and the doctrines of the Greater Good mean that the T'au would embrace any other race willing to cooperate with them, especially so for distant relatives. Hell, they'd be better melee troops than the Kroot (possible background for a schism in the fluff? perhaps) since if the Ethereals have the same semi-hypnotic control over them as the other castes (Again, in the codex, page 9). During the Third Sphere of Expansion, it's not inconceivable at all that they could have stumbled upon this "lost" caste, and incorporated them into the empire.

I've seen your posts on other proposed idea threads kanluwen, and while we don't mind criticism (we are on the internets after all), it's usually implied that we're welcoming constructive criticism, not a "Well, your idea because in your ." Feel free to disagree with our ideas, but offer ways to improve it, instead of only bitching about it.

/end


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, "Shadow" in the Tau lexicon could easily mean "hidden" or "obscured," fitting well with a lost caste that's been missing for three millenium...

Oh, btw, Darkprince has been bouncing ideas back and forth with me. I'm adding his name to the OP.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Changed OP from cheesy backstory to dry backstory.

darkPrince010 wrote:Holy Kanluwen. Feel free to be a fluff lawyer, but at least know about the fluff you're lawyering...

Upon first Imperial contact with the Tau, at which point they were basically fishy neanderthals, they took genetic samples with them (All clearly stated in the Tau codex. This was on page 4). Tau also have a very fast evolutionary adaptation rate (Also stated clearly in the Codex, page 20).

Yeah...that's speculation. The fact that it's called "Zachary's Theorem of Adaptive Divergence" should make that clear.

Given the fact the Tau homeworld was plagued by warp storms, which could very easily have blown one of the ships carrying the gene samples (which could be either just DNA samples or primitive T'au in stasis. It's never clearly stated either way) off course.

The Warp Storms didn't happen until after the Explorator Fleet encountering the Tau had returned.

It's completely conceivable that these evolving T'au might find the "distasteful" close-quarters fighting and hunting evolutionarily advantageous, and thus become adapted to it over the intervening three thousand years (During which the T'au on the homeworld developed everything from black powder to spaceflight and conquered all of the nearby sheltered worlds).

The Fire Caste were close-quarters fighters and hunters. They are, like our society now, at the point where they consider close-quarters fighting "barbaric". They avoid it whenever they can.
Why? Because they know it's not really effective, by and large, with their equipment or style of warfare. Why is it more effective for the armies with hundreds of men charging with lasguns and bayonets fixed, the 8-10 foot power armored giants with armor as thick as the Tau's tanks?
You tell me.

As for weapons, why is a Katana too ninjalike, when the entire Tau codex is full of scaled down Gundam suits? They draw several aspects of the codex from Oriental culture, just like the Golden Throne's occupant and Imperial gothic architecture draws from European culture.

If you think that "Oriental culture" equates to "Gundam suits", I'm not quite sure what to tell you.

The name needs work, sure, but is the underlying idea sound for crunchy rules? Plus, if you read how the unit works, you'd be able to see that they aren't designed for smashing stuff like Assault Marines (12 I4 1W models with a 4+ save isn't a great option for going toe to toe with a dedicated CC squad), nor are they designed to kill squads like an Assassin (Pulse pistols are not going to kill everything, and only 2 A each at S3 means they'll do some wounds, but can't wipe squads without a 2 or 3 turn drawn-out fight). They offer a usable, limited melee screen for the Tau, as opposed to the meat shield horde of Kroot. They won't eat squads like other armies CC squads, but they can actually cope better than FW ever can in CC.

When you say that you "don't want ninjas" and then have "Shadow Daggers" and "Dark Katanas"...I don't know what to tell you there either.

The Tau aren't a CC army. They're severely handicapped right now because of it, but that doesn't mean the answer is to start handing out katanas and making up fishninjas.

Back to fluff, the Ethereals and the doctrines of the Greater Good mean that the T'au would embrace any other race willing to cooperate with them, especially so for distant relatives. Hell, they'd be better melee troops than the Kroot (possible background for a schism in the fluff? perhaps) since if the Ethereals have the same semi-hypnotic control over them as the other castes (Again, in the codex, page 9). During the Third Sphere of Expansion, it's not inconceivable at all that they could have stumbled upon this "lost" caste, and incorporated them into the empire.

I've seen your posts on other proposed idea threads kanluwen, and while we don't mind criticism (we are on the internets after all), it's usually implied that we're welcoming constructive criticism, not a "Well, your idea because in your ." Feel free to disagree with our ideas, but offer ways to improve it, instead of only bitching about it.

/end

Criticism isn't restricted to simply the rules. Fluff does come into play, especially when all you ask for is "criticisms, comments, and ideas". You don't get to pick and choose what commentary you get. I've posted a unit or two of my own design on here, feel free to go blast them for fluff reasons if you want. You won't find many reasons I bet, because I try not to go so far out of my way to create ideas that are so wildly out there that it makes people kind of wonder if you're aware of the background.

yamgrenade wrote:Oh, btw, Darkprince has been bouncing ideas back and forth with me. I'm adding his name to the OP.

I never would have guessed.

Questionable fluff aside i disagree with the stats and rules.
Give them WS 3 (The same as a trained Imperial Guardsman)
The Sergeant shouldn't recieve an S boost.
Make the shadow daggers stun people or poisonous or something rather than giving a 5++ since presumably all CC weapons can block so it's a bit odd really...
I disagree with the katana giving them +1 S but i feel they could probably use the boost... maybe make it so they can't gain the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons?

Evolution is a "Theory" as well. Does that make it any less valid? As for the Warp Storms, why wouldn't an area of space that had a three millennium warp storm not be prone to the occasional storm both before and after? The Shadow Caste are probably a more primitive strain of T'au, or they may simply value the skill of the hunter (and believe cowardly shooting your foes from a distance to be "barbaric"). Even Farsight glorifies the close-combat aspect of the culture, and he hasn't been isolated for centuries. The Gundam suit mention was to simply illustrate a similarity between real-world culture and the fluff of the universe, not to draw the absolute you seem to assume. Someone probably bitched (and probably still do) about the Space Wolves becoming "too viking-ey," but they're a viable addition to the universe anyhow.

While I don't get to pick and choose my commentary, I can guarantee you I won't journey onto yours or anyone else's threads and simply blast their ideas without offering constructive changes or modifications for improvement. Looking over your recent threads, you don't appear (on the surface anyways) to have started anything new, in rules or fluff (Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I would actually enjoy reading your ideas), and I kinda wonder if you're simply trying to troll people...

Background is important, but I don't jump down people's throats when they make an inaccurate or improbable assumption about something I'm well versed in, either IRL or in the hobby. By all means, help us correct the fluff and crunch so this would be an acceptable option. Just don't piss on it and wonder why the OP suddenly seems to become unfriendly...

(Also, in case you're not done ripping a new one in people, I submit my own ideas the Shadow caste idea partially budded off from : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/383218.page)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@purplefood: I agree with no S boost, but definitely an I or WS boost instead for the leader. Poisoned would be nice, but it'd be treading close to DE territory then. Perhaps instead the CC attacks count as a certain value of AP with the certain attacks.

Kanluwen wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:Oh, btw, Darkprince has been bouncing ideas back and forth with me. I'm adding his name to the OP.

I never would have guessed.

First off, WTF is that supposed to mean? Oh yes, Kanluwen, me and some guy I don't know have a SECRET F***ING CONSPIRACY against you.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...that's speculation. The fact that it's called "Zachary's Theorem of Adaptive Divergence" should make that clear.

We should obey all the theorys and laws of the universe just as the rest of 40k obviously does.

Kanluwen wrote:The Warp Storms didn't happen until after the Explorator Fleet encountering the Tau had returned.

This is a perfect argument saying that warp rifts only occur in gigantic storms and very occasionally.

Kanluwen wrote:The Fire Caste were close-quarters fighters and hunters. They are, like our society now, at the point where they consider close-quarters fighting "barbaric". They avoid it whenever they can.
Why? Because they know it's not really effective, by and large, with their equipment or style of warfare. Why is it more effective for the armies with hundreds of men charging with lasguns and bayonets fixed, the 8-10 foot power armored giants with armor as thick as the Tau's tanks?
You tell me.

Why are these new warriors considering close combat fighting neccesary? Because they know by and large it is what they themselves are best at.

Kanluwen wrote:If you think that "Oriental culture" equates to "Gundam suits", I'm not quite sure what to tell you.

That isn't the only thing. If you haven't seen all the references, you probably can't say what oriental culture is at all.

Kanluwen wrote:When you say that you "don't want ninjas" and then have "Shadow Daggers" and "Dark Katanas"...I don't know what to tell you there either.

Ok, well obviously you didn't read my post earlier about working names.

yamgrenade wrote:Dark Katana is a working name. I know it sucks.

Kanluwen wrote:They're severely handicapped right now because of it...

Ok. so no fixing handicapped armies?

Kanluwen wrote:Criticism isn't restricted to simply the rules. Fluff does come into play, especially when all you ask for is "criticisms, comments, and ideas". You don't get to pick and choose what commentary you get. I've posted a unit or two of my own design on here, feel free to go blast them for fluff reasons if you want. You won't find many reasons I bet, because I try not to go so far out of my way to create ideas that are so wildly out there that it makes people kind of wonder if you're aware of the background.

I would prefer constructive commentary, but I guess you're all out And I wonder if you know the background, as you're arguing against stuff that is clearly printed in the codex.

That's what i thought...
Incidentally Kan isn't trying to troll he is just blunt with people...
I might disagree with the background but unless i am specifically asked for criticism on that I'm not even going to try...

@purplefood and darkprince

I'll nix the S boost and 5++ save. The katana is 2h so no extra A there anyway.

Blunt is perfectly fine, as long as it's polite or at least civil.

As for the Katana, I'd say if it gives +1S AND the 6+ invul, it should probably be an Erra'ui-only piece of wargear (or at least very spendy). Also, I assume the unit as a whole is Fleet, Move Through Cover, and Infiltrators?

darkPrince010 wrote:Blunt is perfectly fine, as long as it's polite or at least civil.

As for the Katana, I'd say if it gives +1S AND the 6+ invul, it should probably be an Erra'ui-only piece of wargear (or at least very spendy). Also, I assume the unit as a whole is Fleet, Move Through Cover, and Infiltrators?

Sounds good, I forgot those special rules. What else is good for 'ui?

darkPrince010 wrote:Blunt is perfectly fine, as long as it's polite or at least civil.

As for the Katana, I'd say if it gives +1S AND the 6+ invul, it should probably be an Erra'ui-only piece of wargear (or at least very spendy). Also, I assume the unit as a whole is Fleet, Move Through Cover, and Infiltrators?

That is what blunt cannot be.
Blunt is completly bulldozing through established social protocol and form.
Most people feel uncomfortable being blunt for that reason.

In that case, blunt has no place here.

It kinda does and doesn't...
While it's nice to be pleasant sugar coating something can blur the message you're trying to send...
You need a balance i would imagine.

True, but you can say "I don't think this is a good idea, but you could balance it by adding X" or "This doesn't really fit into fluff very well, but you could try Y instead."

As for wargear and unit abilities, I personally would think either the entire squad getting Stealth Fields or the +1 to cover save like kroot would be needed so they don't get pie plated off the board as easily, but the 'ui could get something along the lines of a power weapon (2x S, but doesn't ignore saves and strikes at initiative perhaps?) or similar melee or melee-enhancing weapons would help.
Maybe a "Markerlight Detector" implant, that would allow the squad to use markerlights to boost BS, or to act as photon grenades on the turn the Shadow Warriors charge?

I'm slightly confused as to where all this future tech comes from, and how these "ninjaTau" are suddenly skilled at using them.

The Tau advanced rapidly in the time they were cut off from the Imperium (I believe it is suggested because of outside help). I'm not sure where a handful of proto-tau dumped onto a hostile planet managed to a) survive, b) breed to the kind of levels where they have a large or even small civilisation, c) are anything like the Tau who were (as I understand it) artificially advanced by an outside power, d) get found by the Tau when they are so good at hiding e) decide to join up with them for lolz.

Also not entirely sure where these personal power fields are coming from, because I'm pretty sure that the Tau don't have them. Or where this 4+ armour comes from that allows them to move unhindered and stealthy give the general level of protection the Tau have, and the bulk of their standard armour.

Pretty much every characteristic that you are wanting to force the Tau into, Kroot already have.

Maybe something that gives them +2 to any cover save or a 4+ if they aren't in cover for a single turn.

@Silver: A and B are good points. This is assuming that, against all odds, whatever thingy they landed in managed to keep them alive, and that they landed on a jungleish planet (like a death planet, but not wuite as unforgiving) and survived. I think the idea isn't that they suddenlly add millions of warriors to the army ranks, but rather a hundred thousand total or so over the whole Empire.
As for C, unless I seriously missed something in fluff, the Tau advanced very quickly because they simply have a much faster evolutionary pace, both physically and socially/technologically, not because of an outside power. As for D, it's that they're good at hiding in the forests against predators, not hiding themselves from stuff probing the planet. And finally, for E, they were probably "convinced" by the Ethereals and their mind-control pheromones or something similar.

Hope that helps clear some of the stuff up better

Also, for crunch and fluff, I agree they shouldn't get invul saves from the katana. The 4+ would probably be due to a different armor configuration (Perhaps new polymers that are closer to their body form, kinda like how Shadowsun's suit is a slimmer profile than stealth/crisis suits), mainly for crunch since with 5+Sv they'll get eaten alive by anything but flashlights in shooting.

We're trying to make something that's a limited CC option, but not a meat shield like Kroot. Kroot come in numbers and have cover saves to allow them to basically be a speedbump for enemy assaults, and they're usually used defensively outside of a Kroot Spam army. The Shadow Warriors are designed to be more offensive, advancing up the flanks and hitting injured or ranged-focus squads, instead of providing the breakwater that kroot are for. They would still offer similar dakka protection for the other units, as instead of getting the 4+ cover for shooting through kroot, shots are instead being directed at the Shadow Warriors (More incentive for improved survivablity from shooting, so they can adequately perform this function). We're trying to make it so they're a viable CC threat, but no so OP that they're a clearcut option (Trying our best not to make them TEQs...)


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@purplefood: Perhaps like a flashbang or smoke grenade thing? I Think that'd work better, but it'd probably work better as an additional cost to buy for the models, instead of a leader upgrade imho.

I don't see the issue with them, I think it sounds like a good idea.

Don't know who said it (and i'm too lazy too look back through) but not all tau despise CC. In fact, if you look into the Enclave fluff, it states O'Shovah trains his warriors in CC.

With that said, instead of making a new caste I would think making them an Enclave unit would work better. Something like a Chapter tactic for SM giving Farsight the ability to field them as troops.

PS. - Sorry if any of this was brough up already, i skimmed through a majority of the longer posts

That might work, except I'd be afraid it'd start to blur the differences between Tau and SM (Except Tau would have the weaker CC abilities). Perhaps allow an Enclave upgrade to the commander, and have him give a buff to the squad he joins (and only that squad), or a very minor overall army buff? (Don't know if this overlaps with SM, as I don't have the codex)

I would say either of these things- either A) Farsight has had no contact with the newly found caste, which is better fluff-wise, or B) Farsight has no restriction of how many shadow caste warrior squads he can take, which is better game-play wise. They are already troops, but are 0-2.

I am considering changing it to 0-1, but I don't know if that would diminish their effectiveness.

I would say 0-1, just so they don't overshadow kroot, and to stay true to the limited number of the caste members that probably exist, with maybe 0-3 for Farsight or something.

Sounds good. changing OP now

Also, they'll need something to count as assault grenades so they can be viable charging out of cover (No defensive grenades imo though, to keep them more fragile. On the fence about giving them ability to buy photon grenades). Perhaps a "Flare grenade" or something for a fluffy name. I do like purplefood's idea of a cover save-boosting smokescreen grenade of some sort: Once per game, they get +2 to their save in cover, or get a 4 or 5+ save if out of cover, and it's an upgrade to buy for the Erra'ui.

Kanluwen wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Tau, period,despise close combat.

That, aside from suddenly 'creating' a new Caste that was some kind of...I don't know, genetic freakshow, is what is so silly.

They developed it out of necessity. And it isn't creating, it is discovering...how is it a genetic freak show? They are pretty much normal Tau, they just took a different path evolutionarily.

Unknown to the crew of the ship, they had just indirectly created the 6'th caste of the Tau- The Shadow Caste. When the samples of the Tau were dumped, they miraculously found their way into the gravitational reach of a planet, and crashed onto the jungle world of Stolag. Luckily, they were the Hardy plains-dwellers of T'au, and became expert hunters of the jungle. They soon realized that to survive, they would have to change their tactics. They adapted to the close spaces and darkness of the jungle. They developed much more slowly than the unified castes, but at the time of their discovery, they had mastered stealth and assassination and had begun building handguns and handbows. They joined The Greater Good quickly, and have been serving The Tau Empire ever since.

Fire Warriors do not suddenly become 'ninjas', just because they were "dumped in a jungle world".

Especially considering that the Fire Caste dwells on a few swamp worlds, and hasn't become ninjas.

Basically this. I do not see A bunch of firewarriors all of sudden becoming the Punisher and being able to kill everything.

Ok, they aren't fire warriors that suddenly picked up swords and said, "Hey, I can now use this thing!" It was 3,000 years of cultural evolution that led to a different kind of warfare.


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darkPrince010 wrote:Also, they'll need something to count as assault grenades so they can be viable charging out of cover (No defensive grenades imo though, to keep them more fragile. On the fence about giving them ability to buy photon grenades). Perhaps a "Flare grenade" or something for a fluffy name. I do like purplefood's idea of a cover save-boosting smokescreen grenade of some sort: Once per game, they get +2 to their save in cover, or get a 4 or 5+ save if out of cover, and it's an upgrade to buy for the Erra'ui.

That sounds good. Smoke grenade sounds awesome but it should be a 5+ save.

Don't forget in that same time the T'au on the homewrold developed plasma weapons, spaceflight, etc. Plus, they don't kill stuff Punisher-style. They simply go after the weak/wounded stuff (Sorta like real-world pack hunters) and finish it off. One of these charging a SM assault squad or a couple terminators would get eaten alive, and rightfully so.


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Agreed. 5+ out of cover sounds good.

Flavor wise for Tau I always thought that, they should be able to shoot into assaults, as it would fit well with "The Greater Good" to sacrifice a small part for the overall gain.

But they also think that sacrificing a force is an unneccesary loss.

True, possibly only do it with drones, or kroot?

Drones definately, I don't think kroot care enough as the individual soldiers are just mercs.

Drones causing morale checks on crisis and broadside suits...

Yes, drones need to be seriously changed. I doubt that when a drone dies, the broadsides leaps from his suit to cry on the twisted metal corpse, then runs away off the edge of the world.

Mine have done that, many many times. I've lost more Broadsides from panicking over a dead drone than I have from enemy shooting or assaults. They literally grow wings and zip 12" along the board each turn...

I'll leave those changes to you in your thread

Lol, I already removed the Drones cause fleeing rule. The Winged Broadsides however are a direct result of my traitor dice (Cool conversion idea there... )

Make sure to fix the dice to always roll ones if you do that

Nonono, those are the dice set aside for when they're trying to pen a landraider. It's very important they don't get mixed up

EDIT: Added shock slings. Tell me what you guys think

Approved. Plus, I think the Smoke Grenades are perfect. Hell, maybe allow regular FW squads to buy that too, to give them a bit of surviveability should a major dakka attack hit a group outside of cover...

When I think of a "Shadow Caste" I think more of a secret Caste created to watch over the others and ''remove'' the trouble-makers in the other Castes. Secret Police kind of a thing.

Definitely not Fire-Warriors that all of a sudden decide to pick up a sword because of being stranded on a world.


Going with the name of "Shadow Warrior" why not give them the same Stealth Generator as the Stealth Suits.

Also, as others have said before, you should really make better fluff to support this rather than just "because I said so".

Farsight Enclaves attract many more of these because of his tactical philosophy, and as such get 0-3 instead

Also this, they don't focus on Close-Combat, they were just forced to once, and then broke away from the rest of the Empire and their leader found a powerful sword. They still fight a lot like the Tau Empire, just with more of a focus on elite battlesuit forces.

grayspark wrote:When I think of a "Shadow Caste" I think more of a secret Caste created to watch over the others and ''remove'' the trouble-makers in the other Castes. Secret Police kind of a thing.

Definitely not Fire-Warriors that all of a sudden decide to pick up a sword because of being stranded on a world.


Going with the name of "Shadow Warrior" why not give them the same Stealth Generator as the Stealth Suits.

Also, as others have said before, you should really make better fluff to support this rather than just "because I said so".

Farsight Enclaves attract many more of these because of his tactical philosophy, and as such get 0-3 instead

Also this, they don't focus on Close-Combat, they were just forced to once, and then broke away from the rest of the Empire and their leader found a powerful sword. They still fight a lot like the Tau Empire, just with more of a focus on elite battlesuit forces.

There are no Tau trouble makers except for Farsight, who doesn't really do much. As for their creation, I guess a lot of people don't get this- They had 3 thousand years to take a different path than the current Fire Warriors.

I was thinking the generator would be an upgrade for the 'ui, just haven't gotten to it, thanks for reminding me.

Also, it clearly says that Farsight extensively trains his soldiers in CC in the Dex.

"The Tau abhor close combat" that is straight out of the codex.

Abhor is defined as "to Loath entirely" by The Websters...

So.... what makes you think they have any place having ninjas?

Plus... Kroot do this job.

Yes, the Tau that learned to hate CC hate it, I don't disagree.
I know what abhor means.
Kroot do not do this job.

yamgrenade wrote:Yes, the Tau that learned to hate CC hate it, I don't disagree.
I know what abhor means.
Kroot do not do this job.

They kinda do...
Light skirmishers that are effective in CC and used as infiltrators...

More than anything, the kroot are meat sheilds.

The Tau have had three thousand years of accelerated evolution to train and adapt to ranged combat instead of melee. This offshoot has had the same amount of time in accelerated evolution in an environment that promoted melee combat over ranged combat (A confined jungle over open plains), and as such are the only T'au apart from the (relatively) "looney-bin" Farsight to enjoy doing so.

These guys are an alternative to Kroot, not a replacement. Kroot are effective in CC only by sheer weight of numbers, and as such have poor saves (apart from cover) and average combat skill. Their large numbers are what make them effective and encourage use as a screen for the FW/suit firing lines. If they take a couple casualties, it won't severely affect their ability to deal with enemies in CC.
Shadow Warriors, on the other hand, have good (not amazingly terminator lightning-claws awesome, but good) CC ability, and slightly better survivability from shooting. In return, they are fewer in number, preventing their use as effective meat shields. Instead, their targets are CC-vulnerable or weakened squads, and they can maneuver across the board much faster than the Kroot can thanks to the Move through Cover, Fleet, and Hit and Run. The smaller numbers means that they will be more vulnerable to shooting, but their greater combat ability and Ld-modifiers means that they will have to lose a sizeable percentage of the squad before they cease being a threat, approximately the same percentage of Kroot that would need to be lost from a squad to make that ineffective. Tau player will now have an option between smaller, faster elite CC units or slower, larger average CC units.
Kroot are basically Tau boyz squads, while these guys are designed to be more along the lines of small squads of Howling Banshees.

Well put but howling banshees would tear them apart

Ashamed for this...but...bump

OK here are some ideas on the revisions. I would change their size to 6-12 so they more closely match other sizes. I like the shock boas. Maybe you can give them honor blades over Katanas. Why can you only have one unit of them? Seems odd. Sense you are dead set on making them a new caste, describe them more. Tell us what they look like, explain why they remain their own caste and are not folded up into the fire, ect. Just some more fluff.

Ok, I'll re-work the fluff some.

Changing unit size is good, I just wanted to make sure people didn't call them Kroot Clones.

The 1 squad is so people don't spam them, which would change the feel and play-style of the Tau.

I'll get working on the fluffy bits day after tomorrow, too tired right now and traveling tomorrow.

I would say if you give the option for Ethereals to have a Fire Warrior or a Shadow Warrior veteran squad, give the Shadow Warrior veterans +1 WS, +1 I, and +1 Ld (With the 'ui having the normal bonus on top of that). Give them an additional cost of 2-3 pts on top of their current costs, and have the unit keep their Stealth Field ability with the Ethereal. That way, the enemy has to make the Night Fighting to shoot the unit, but they are not performing as the fighty unit they were designed as (Causing the Tau player to weigh additional protection for the Ethereal for the points cost of a basically non-combat unit).
This would allow for the option of making an Ethereal survivable without sticking him in a Dumbfish, but force the Tau player to bunch the Ethereal and the units you want to get the Morale reroll to be nearby (The 50-50 split army on opposite sides of the board won't get the Ld reroll due to needing to roll the Night-Fighting to see the Ethereal. Never thought that rule made sense until now... ).

Hey, that's a pretty cool idea.

Plus, templates scatter 3d6, but can still hit, so they'll die just as quickly to pie plates 1/3 of the time, and the rest of the time it'll hit the Tau units that will be clumped nearby to get the morale bonus...

That is a rather nice idea. It also kind of goes with idea of making them honor guards. (I am not dropping that bone quite yet.)

Exactly. I was thinking that since these Tau might have a more primitive or tribalistic culture, the idea of a blood oath to the Ethereals who would have brought food, better weapons, and better technology to them would be considered honored, and that this would encourage the best of the Erra caste to volunteer as his elite guards.
Plus, there's always the strongly-hinted mind-controlly aspect of Ethereals on Tau in general, and if you decided you wanted to be insane, you could even toss the Ethereal's Honor guard into combat on purpose (Since he's a low I, high risk but adequate melee unit, and he could buy drones and other goodies for them)

I think that the fluff definitely needs some work. No matter how much you put it off about how it says THIS in the codex, or it happened like THAT there should be definitive fluff that actually meshes with the established background of the faction you are trying to tie it into. While it is true that two of the same species will evolve differently in different environments, there should still be legitimate reasons as to why this class does not see the ways of their lost cousins and go with their way, or vice-versa. Also, if they evolved to use stealth and close combat against their natural predators, why would they view strange visitors to their planet any different? Surely they would not just betray thousands of years of evolving to use the darkness and guerilla tactics just because some new creature shows up. Personally, I don't care either way if you feel the Tau need a CC unit, but the Fluff Nazi within screams for justification. BTW, I hate kroot, so you won't get a "Use Kroot instead! It's what they're for!" from me, as I personally would never use kroot in any function whatsoever.

Hoo boy: Here goes my best attempt at a Codex-style fluff entry:

+++
BEGIN EMERGENCY VOX LOG
TELEPATHIC DUCT: -N/A-
REF: -N/A-
AUTHOR: Machine-Spirit Designate BETA-583
REPORT TRANSMITTED: Explorator-Class Land’s Vision
DESTINATION: -ANY-
DATE:801.M35
+++

-SEVERE WARP TREMORS DETECTED-

+Damage report initialized…+

Hull Integrity: DAMAGED.
Life Support: DAMAGED.
Thruster Array: DAMAGED.
Weapons Systems: DESTROYED.
Weapon Redundancies: DESTROYED.
Navigational Array: DAMAGED.
Landing Struts: DESTROYED.

+Detecting Crew Life Signs…+
-MINIMAL-

+Proximity Sensors Are Detecting A Nearby Planetoid.+

+Navigational Array Finding Coordinates.+
-ERROR.-

+Atmospheric Analysis Computing...+
-Atmosphere: Approximately 70:30 N2:O2 Mix.-

+Navigational Redundant System Calculating Velocity …+
-Velocity: 4,500 KPS.-

+Navigational Redundant System Calculating Angle Of Approach …+
-Angle Of Approach From Perpendicular: 3 Degrees.-

-WARNING: 98.5% LIKELIHOOD OF DESTRUCTIVE IMPACT WITH PLANETOID.-

+Initializing Angel Of Approach Increase…+
-ERROR: Mass Of Transport In Excess Of Necessary Limits For Maneuver.-

+Proximity Sensors Have Detected Impact With Atmosphere.+
-Atmosphere: 71.583% N2, 28.045% O2, 0.118% Argon, 0.035% Carbon, 0.009% Helium, 0.210% Unknown Gases.-

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 10 SECONDS.-

+Jettisoning Stasis Cargo Section.+

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 7 SECONDS.-

+Initializing Angel Of Approach Increase…+

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 4 SECONDS.-

-ERROR: Thruster Output Velocity Insufficient For Maneuver.-

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 1 SECONDS.-

+++END EMERGENCY VOX LOG+++


Of the three dozen T’au that were collected by the explorers of the Adeptus Mechanicus vessel Land’s Vision, only two dozen survived the crash-landing onto the jungle death world δT-11035B, later to be renamed Erra, or Shadow. This moon was previously surveyed by the Land’s Vision on their way to Tau and dismissed as a jungle world devoid of ores or resources to further the cause of the Imperial war effort, with the lead Techpriest noting that the native fauna had a particular affinity for the servitor drones they had brought along to analyze the surface.

The T’au, separated from their tribes, wailed out in distress, and they nearly came to blows over old blood feuds when a local creature, a creature they later named an Or’au or Powerful Death, attacked the group, nearly killing them all. After their defeat of this creature and the ensuing feast, the remaining sixteen remaining T’au recognized their similarities, and tenuously agreed to a truce while they attempted to survive their new home.

While the first few months nearly exterminated the new immigrants, over the years the T’au learned the weapons and cunning needed to survive in the jungle they named Hui’wern, the Hidden Deception. No longer could they see their enemies and wait for their approach as on the open plains of Tau. Instead, they learned to conceal themselves completely from their prey, and stalk it before closing for the kill, as the close-hanging vines and jagged trunks made spears and bows nearly useless.

After centuries, the shaky ceasefire had become a bond of brotherhood, uniting the few tribes on Erra so they could rely on each other against the frequent dangers of their home. While squabbles and wars between the tribes did rage occasionally, the constant threats of the jungles meant that only the foolish squabbled for long.

After nearly three millennium, the Tau upon Erra discovered the art of metallurgy, far after their distant cousins on their home world. Scraping what little nodules of crude iron and crystals they could find from the creature-infested caves that were scattered beneath the jungle floor, they learned how to refine and process their new alloys, passing them down from father to son, and further purifying and improving upon the weapons of their ancestors before passing them on.

Greatest of the new metalworkers was the warrior Yanoi’ii, and before he died he not only had raised bladework from a craft to an art, but had also discovered several processes that allowed the Erra’la to incorporate venoms from their slain prey into their blades, allowing them to become even more useful and treasured against the fauna of Erra. For his contributions to the tribes, his descendants were nominated as chiefs, to rule on disputes and to lead the tribes into battle united against more formidable monsters of the forest.


A few decades after the end of the Third Sphere of Expansion, the ship Aun’va and the Children of Fio’tyr came across a small jungle moon near the edges of their borders, on the far side of the Tau Empire from the Damocles Gulf. When their scanners first reported the lifesigns of T’au on the surface below, they dispatched a rescue party to save the presumed crew of a crashed ship. It was only after three of the eight Shas’la that were sent to check for signs of wreckage were killed swiftly and silently by humanoid figures that the T’au on the Aun’va began to realize the true extent of their discovery.

Within weeks, a ship arrived carrying the Ethereal Aun’tae. Skilled at speaking with and reasoning with even the most erratic of the Tau Empire’s various allies, Aun’tae relished the opportunity he was about to receive. Upon arriving on the surface though, Aun’tae heard the cries of an injured T’au,a nd the sounds of a struggling roaring beast. Bursting into a clearing, the Ethereal came upon the latest descendant of Yanoi’ii, Karra’ii, under attack by an Or’au.

As the Ethereal’s Shas’vre guards were unable to fire at the beast attacking Karra’ii, the Aun’tae gracefully dove forward, and rolled underneath the beast, thrusting his honor blade through the creature’s chest. After she got to her feet, Karra’ii regarded the Ethereal for a moment, and then in a swift motion drew a dagger and grabbed the Ethereals hand, tightly grasping the blade between their palms. Upon finishing the blood bonding with Aun’tae, the ethereal began to explain the full extent of the Greater Good and the Tau on their homeworld. Seeing an opportunity to escape the daily living hell of Erra, Karra’ii pledged the Erra’la in support of their long-lost cousins, and joined Aun’tae upon his ship.


Since that day, the Erra’la have migrated to the separate T’au septs, joining and melding with their brothers and their strategies. While some Shas’la may consider them to be erratic or primitive, none can dispute the grace at which they can execute Kauyon, and the ability for their blades to swiftly bring the Mont’ka upon an unsuspecting foe. In keeping with their traditions, the Erra’la send their young unblooded warriors to the jungle moon, alone and with only their ancestral blade, in order so that they may prove themselves against the beasts of their ancestors, and return a respected warrior.

Excellent Job I'll put it up


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Alfhedil wrote:I think that the fluff definitely needs some work. No matter how much you put it off about how it says THIS in the codex, or it happened like THAT there should be definitive fluff that actually meshes with the established background of the faction you are trying to tie it into. While it is true that two of the same species will evolve differently in different environments, there should still be legitimate reasons as to why this class does not see the ways of their lost cousins and go with their way, or vice-versa. Also, if they evolved to use stealth and close combat against their natural predators, why would they view strange visitors to their planet any different? Surely they would not just betray thousands of years of evolving to use the darkness and guerilla tactics just because some new creature shows up. Personally, I don't care either way if you feel the Tau need a CC unit, but the Fluff Nazi within screams for justification. BTW, I hate kroot, so you won't get a "Use Kroot instead! It's what they're for!" from me, as I personally would never use kroot in any function whatsoever.

Glad somebody else hates kroot Also glad somebody else understands how they are different.

That is so much better than what was there before, although truthfully, the stuff up top gives me a headache, but it is what it is. The only thing that slightly bothers me is the low number of them actually creating society out of near-extinction, but it's Warhams, there's worse things in official fluff. Kudos on the improvement, I'll leave you guys to furthering the rules, as I don't play Tau. Want to, but can't afford to, due to the way I play the game. Good luck with the rest of the entry.

I actually realized it was a crappy number, but I wanted something reasonable (Why would the Adeptus Mechanicus take hundreds of xenos on their ship and sully the Emperor's devices?), and I wanted it as a multiple of 8. Perhaps 80 or 64 or something might be better, I dunno. Whatever you guys think sounds appropriate.

As for the Vox transmission, they do tend to be kinda headache inducing, and I'm glad I was able to replicate it. Thanks for the input

Changed 16 to 24 in the numbers, best this I could think of doing.

Sounds good. I know irl, there were some human genetic bottlenecks of 100 individuals or less, so 24 sounds about appropriate. Also, feel free to change the stuff about poisoned blades to fit whatever you think would mesh well with how you'd want the katanas to work.


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My thoughts were to keep the katana as a Honor blade, maybe rename the daggers as "Or'au Fangs," and allow the Erra'vre that are the Ethereal bodyguards to buy an "Ancestral Blade" (+2 S like Honor Blade, but also Poisoned, or reroll to-hits, or something similar)

IMHO, I feel that these would make perfect assassins, But I have two problems:

1) The squads are too large. I felt that the squad size should be more like 1-5, and you may take 2 squads as elites choices.

2) My inner Genestealer is telling me that you are making a CC unit for a shooty army, like putting stealers with guard. Now while this wouldn't normally bother me, I have come upon a disturbing fact. when compared to a stealer, they are SIMILAR, BUT, when you compare 'nid's ranged capabilities to the tau, they are FAR apart. If you were to possibly assist multiple armies with handicaps, then I would feel better, but this is just my opinion.

Please do not react sharply, as I am just trying out some constructive criticism.

But this idea really would help the Tau. Good idea

1) Given the fragility of the squad, 1-5 would be killed pretty instantly. They have the same survivability of a Fire Warrior, so really they're gonna need some numbers to make a dent.
2) I understand this, but to be honest, these guys are no-where near genestealer grade- Far from it. While stealers could charge and rip apart termie squads, these guys are more tactical strike squads- They hit hard where it matters. They might not fit the army in some ways, but they do in some ways- A fragile unit that can still mess some face up when used correctly. Plus, there is no reason while a purely ranged army should have an unreasonable handicap in CC.

I agree with point 1, but would say only change it to 4-8 at the least, since yamgrenade is right in that they'll get shot to pieces pretty fast.

As for point 2, the main issue is no other army is as starkly "Only X and no Y" as tau are. Nids are very killy in CC, but have some solid, if not as powerful, shooting available to them. IG, while mainly shooty, have powerblobs and similar CC tactics they can use. Tau, however, have kroot. Don't like Kroot? Well, you can pick more kroot.
I understand your concern, and that's why we've kept their fragility and not turned them into genestealer-powered CC units (Since that would make them a handicap). Instead, we're trying to just give the Tau 2 options for a CC/Bullet Magnet besides Kroot.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm with Kanluwen on this one. You guys saying "Blunt is fine as long as it's polite and civil"...really? Do you understand how "blunt comments" work? And stop QQing, grow up, it's a big bad internet out there, if somebody hurts your feelings because they don't like your idea on the internet, you're just gonna have to move on.

As far as the actual proposed rules here...just no. Tau have (theoretically) amazing shooting. Their handicap is that they are bad at CC (I'm talking game terms here). The fix for a shooty army that doesn't shoot as well as it should is not HURR GIVE EM SUPER COOL ELITE CLOSE COMBAT SCORING UNITS!!! The answer is to fix their darn shooting. It's entirely unbalanced to have a race with the best anti armor shooting in the game, on top of some of the most manueverable gun platforms then get scoring units that are all equipped with relic blades in CC. That's ridiculous, and if you don't see why that's unbalanced...well then I'm just glad that I don't ever have to play you with your "proposed rules".

Kanluwen, I'd advise you to stop perusing the proposed rules forums. The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

Criticism is fine. Feel free to say "Your idea sucks." Just be sure to add on "Your idea sucks, try improving it with X," or "Your idea sucks because of Y," as this makes it more clear why you disagree or ways you think something is out of place or OP, instead of just sounding like you're completely nixing any ideas you dislike.

As for the unit: They are not elite, or substantially better/equivalent to any other army's CC units. (If they are, we need to fix that) These units could take on an equal number of hormagaunts or vanilla boyz, maybe. That's about it. They will be killed by any other Assault-focused unit in the game, and probably have their ass handed to them by any non-assault units that have decent melee skills (IG blobs, kroot, Orks and SM come to mind). They're designed to kill stuff to the same degree as Kroot, for about the same points cost. Right now, Tau armies basically boil down to suit spam or Kroot spam, and this squad would allow Tau players to choose a CC bullet magnet other than Kroot.

As for your perceived disagreements with this idea, I can extrapolate from the post:
1) Shouldn't be as powerful (Definately trying to avoid making them genestealer equivalents. That'd be far too OP)
2) Shouldn't have the Honor Blades (I agree +2S may be a bit much, but do you think a more powerful CC weapon would be reasonable, or just the daggers or CC weapon/pistol is enough?)
3) Shouldn't be scoring (The stealth fields does give this unit high surviveability against ranged shooting, possibly making IG,Tau, or other shooty armies at a disadvantadge to shoot them off of the objective. I actually think this may have some merit: Perhaps make the Stealth Fields optional but if they take them, they lose the ability to be Scoring?)

Did I miss anything?

The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

I asked for criticism, not "TLDR it sucks." What Rennoc did what critisim, what Kan did was flaming. I can deal with it; I'm not gonna ask for this thread to be closed because of somebody who doesn't like this idea.

I think some of the criticism might be fed on the objection to the creation of another caste for the tau which something that creates a fundamental change to existing tau fluff. I would like to put in another possible fluff justification for the unit; after many conflicts with humans the tau have been expose to the imperium’s use of modified warriors in the form of imperial assassins. The tau then attempt to duplicate the imperium’s creation of these combatants. Tinkering with a fire warrior’s physiology would be a better explanation to the difference in stats and skills when compared to the normal tau warriors in my opinion.

Tau Evolution: In the tau codices and Xenology it is heavily implied that the tau biology, particularly the creation of the caste system, has been genetically influenced by an outside force. I think your explanation for the emergence of a new caste is at odds with this – tau not belonging with the established caste system might even be viewed as an abomination; remember tau are put to death if they attempt to mate outside their caste.

Rule wise: They seem fine to me in the sense that I wouldn’t might playing against them. I would recommend adding something as I don’t really see them accomplishing much in a game that can’t be achieved better using the kroot. Perhaps having an assassination, disruption or sabotage special rule. I would have them equipped with a pulse pistol and cc as standard – even orks and berserkers bring a gun into battle. I think the honor blade is too affiliated with the etherals, I would suggest making up a weapon unique to them instead of poaching from the etherals. Hope this was helpful.

yamgrenade wrote:

The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

I asked for criticism, not "TLDR it sucks." What Rennoc did what critisim, what Kan did was flaming. I can deal with it; I'm not gonna ask for this thread to be closed because of somebody who doesn't like this idea.

Kan doesn't feel this idea has merit. When he feels that he doesn't think any amount of constructive criticism can help.
Personally i feel each Race has their key fluff tool so to speak... with Tau it's either Farsight or Experimental technology with a healthy dose of a growing sense of the universe and the races they are finding.

@Grunt13: That would actually be a nice touch, since it would even further distance the unit from being CC-squad-killing focused.

Perhaps the ones in the "Shadow Caste" (Outcastes?)were disgraced prisoners or criminals that have been "Modified" to become beneficial to the Greater Good yet again? (Sorta lifting the criminal rehabilitation thing from Starcraft marines here). They would be relatively unknown in most armies (0-1), secretive and with their own agenda (Non-scoring). Maybe make them a specialized Stealth suit squad, in that they get the Failsafe Detonator in addition to melee prowess or something? I have no idea how well that would balance though. Your idea is a cool one, and would fit really well with the established fluff. Thanks! (Gonna brainstorm on this one... )

Darkjediben wrote:
Kanluwen, I'd advise you to stop perusing the proposed rules forums. The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

It's not just Proposed Rules. You see it when people start writing fluff for their armies too.

yamgrenade wrote:I asked for criticism, not "TLDR it sucks." What Rennoc did what critisim, what Kan did was flaming. I can deal with it; I'm not gonna ask for this thread to be closed because of somebody who doesn't like this idea.

I don't actually recall anyone saying "TLDR it sucks."

So criticism is saying that the idea is "perfect but with problems"? I see.

Just to make you happy and keep you content:
There is basically nothing that strikes me as 'Tau' for the concept you've given. I've noticed this in every thread that crops up regarding giving the Tau a CC unit, and I always say the same thing. It doesn't work fluffwise or in terms of balance for the most part. It's too much like the attempts to have Power Armored Guard or Arbites as dedicated Guard CC units. It's not good.

If you want "assassins"? Then you want Fire Warriors equipped and outfitted for it. Pathfinders, who are part of the Fire Caste, train for assassination and extraction missions. The Stealth Suit operators as well perform this role.
There is no need for "criminals" (whom according to the fluff are killed or 'reeducated') with Failsafe Detonators. There's no need for guys carrying swords all over the place, etc.
Farsight and his Dawn Blade are a unique exception to the rule when it comes to Tau having power weapons for now. More than that and it gets slightly 'huh?', leading to all sorts of confusion.

If it were me to come up with an 'assassin' unit, it would be Stealth Suits with railrifles.

@Kanluwen: Thanks for the constructive criticism. I think I finally see some of the reasons you originally (or still do) dislike this idea.

I think our original idea was to try to get a unit that was as effective overall in CC as kroot (able to kill an approximately equal number of squads of the same rough power level for about the same points cost), with equal survivability.
Given the smaller unit size, we attempted to make them harder to kill so they'd require approximately the same shooting to destroy as a Kroot squad (and it seemed making them harder to shoot was better than giving them extra wounds or a higher armor save).
However, I do fully admit that they may be far OP at the moment to be able to do that, and should be nerfed to the kroot power level.

As for why not stick with just kroot, I personally would like a CC alternative for Tau besides kroot. Not something better than kroot, but a choice that doesn't involve (in fluff terms) my trained, noble, loyal warriors to rely on cannabalistic wealth-loving mercenaries for their safety.
Tau only have Kroot for a CC option (Drone Squads don't work well as CC units, and it's inefficient to make suits do that when they could do shooting far better.), so we're trying to make there be 2 options instead of 1 for a Tau CC unit/bullet magnet.

And the assassin idea would work perfect with the regular rulebook for pathfinders if Rail Rifles ignored cover or something similar, since they're worthless atm (Plus, that'd make Sniper Drone teams a more attractive option too).
Heck, make the "assassins" an elite choice of BS4 pathfinders with stealth fields and the (better) rail rifles, and you'd be set.

If you want a CC alternative for Tau, you're playing the wrong army.

The Tau's approach to close combat isn't close combat. It's close quarters battle, utilizing withering firepower from Pulse Carbines to keep enemies from being able to charge effectively.

Also, Kroot aren't cannibals. Cannibals eat their own kind, they're just carnivores.

Eh, cannabalistic or not, it's still kinda eerie.

As for the "cc alternative," we're not trying to make something better than kroot, it's simply something instead of kroot. This is purely for fluff reasons, and is not designed to make a Tau army a melee army whatsoever (Which they can do by spamming kroot units already).

Plus, why shouldn't Tau have a few options between (limited effectiveness) CC units? No other army is so strong in one area (Shooting) and so weak in another (CC), and while I'm not saying that the army should be homogenized between those two (Which would lose the flavor of the Tau playstyle), given that 40K has recently become "Shooting is just what you do en-route to Assaulting," even Tau, the shootiest army in the book, have trouble not getting swamped in CC if they don't have at least one CC unit.

This unit is to simply give the Tau's CC aspect (Previously only kroot blobs) a choice: A large blobby CC meatshield which can be used ineffectively to be on the offensive, or a smaller more fragile unit which can be used ineffectively to be on the defensive. The new unit won't be powerful to lead your forces in assaults, but it will be powerful enough to force your opponent to dedicate fire at it, drawing fire in the same way the Kroot absorb it.

(On a side note, Pulse Carbines? Really? Pinning does nil against Fearless units, and unless you're wasting precious markerlights on the squad that's going to try to assault you AND isn't fearless, a Ld check is pretty easy for most armies to pass. And if you do use markerlights, there were probably at least 2 or 3 better targets they could have been used on. It works, but it's not a very reliable strategy)

If you don't want to use Kroot, just use counts as.

Seriously, I've seen plenty of people make 'Feral Warriors' and use the 'Eaters of the Dead' rule to represent them making sure all their enemies really are dead.

(On a side note, Pulse Carbines? Really? Pinning does nil against Fearless units, and unless you're wasting precious markerlights on the squad that's going to try to assault you AND isn't fearless, a Ld check is pretty easy for most armies to pass. And if you do use markerlights, there were probably at least 2 or 3 better targets they could have been used on. It works, but it's not a very reliable strategy)

The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Say it with me. The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Carbines, in fluff, are what Fire Caste Teams use to lay down withering hails of fire in close. They also have auxiliary grenade launchers that make this tactic much nastier.

Kanluwen wrote:The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Say it with me. The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Carbines, in fluff, are what Fire Caste Teams use to lay down withering hails of fire in close. They also have auxiliary grenade launchers that make this tactic much nastier.

Agreed. Apparently they use itty bitty grenades that make people duck instead of die. Why they aren't rending or have the option for a (weak) sm. blast template is beyond me.

As for coutns as, I would except my inner fluff bunny dislikes the idea of sudden hordes of Tau taking up weapons (Pot commenting on color of kettle here, but still). What's the Eaters of the Dead rule?

darkPrince010 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Say it with me. The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Carbines, in fluff, are what Fire Caste Teams use to lay down withering hails of fire in close. They also have auxiliary grenade launchers that make this tactic much nastier.

Agreed. Apparently they use itty bitty grenades that make people duck instead of die. Why they aren't rending or have the option for a (weak) sm. blast template is beyond me.

Because they're photon grenades. Grenades aren't necessarily killy weapons, but they do a damn good job of deterring people from assaulting.

As for counts as, I would except my inner fluff bunny dislikes the idea of sudden hordes of Tau taking up weapons (Pot commenting on color of kettle here, but still).

Considering that some of the Tau fanbois put the Fire Caste at being 100% militarization, by that rationale there should be thousands of Fire Warriors for every Guardsman.
Just have the Fire Warriors wearing stripped down armor, ragged looking cloaks, and Kroot Rifles like they did during the Tyranid incursions.

What's the Eaters of the Dead rule?

Something that no longer exists, apparently. I had to look in the Tau Empire book again, but I'm not sure where it was anymore.
Basically it was a rule that made it so Kroot had to stop whenever they killed someone in CC.

Hmm, sounds kinda like the old Minotaur version of Bloodgreed. I may use this idea of couts-as for my FW, since I have a metric shitton of them (I bought the army off of a friend). Just give them blades, make spike/blade covered drones for hounds, and guys riding drones with a big generic gun underneath for krootox (Maybe. I dunno if krootox are worth it.).

If this was to happen then only Farsight should be able to command them as he trains soilders to be good at CC. Also with only T3 they will be stomped to easily should have T4 and S4. They should be a breakayay outcast faction who no longer belive in the greater good and they are ex-FW. Also they should only be allowed to be in a Farsight army as the Tau belive that CC is barbaric, primal and dishounorable so it goes against thier belifes. Which is why the ethreals us honour blades because, they are fast swift and not beutal providing a clean cut with minimal mess.

Why would they even come in with the main Tau force?
They seem like a unit that would set up in a piece of area terrain,
and then pop out mid-battle and do dastardly things to some unsuspecting enemy unit.

Also, since they are used to AMBUSHING LARGE BEASTS IN CONFINED SPACES, maybe you should give them some special bonus when they charge an MC?
or
fusion charges (Tau-ified melta bombs)

Finally, giving them Ethereal caste weapons seems a little odd, since ethereals are, well SLIGHTLY different?

That's just my bit anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 24 individuals do NOT comprise a large enough gene pool for 3,000 years.

Maybe they should be somewhat (or a whole lot) abnormal, maybe larger, faster, and stronger, because of inbreeding,
but not as smart (or not able to use ranged weapons at all)

i.e

WS 4 S4 T4

BS 1 or 2

cannot use transports

cannot be joined by ICs

@redkeyboard: We were thinking that they may have filtered a bit into the normal armies of the empire in limited numbers, but are only mainly used by Farsight ( So normal armies can get 0-1 of them, and Farsight can have unlimited or 0-3 or something)

@warmaster: Hmmm. The ambushing out of a piece of terrain is cool. Maybe use it like a modified version of Infiltrate in that they can set up in terrain a certain distance away (But declared, so they're not hidden like ymgarl genestealers).

I do like the MC bonus, but perhaps the melta charges would work better since Tau usually have enough sheer firepower to drop an MC without their help, and this would make them a good threat to vehicles too.

I like the S3 T3 but boosting S using a weapon, since S4 T3 is a kroot, and S4 T4 makes them as tough as a space marine or crisis suit (just a smidge OP). However, I fully agree that their BS should be crappier due to the inbreeding and the no transports/IC rule seems good as well.

Thanks for the feedback!

EDIT: didn't realize the conversation had moved on that far. Please ignore.

@Redkeyboard

As prince said, giving them an upgraded S and T makes little sense fluffwise or gamewise. Also Tau honor the Kroot because of their CC skill, It would be a similar case here. We do give farsight 3 units max while non farsight armies can have only one.

@Warmastersolon

That is a great idea. Maybe instead of declaring where they are, use something similar to outflank where you declare 2 peices of terrain and roll like with outflank? That makes it so that people don't just avoid the one that they hide in, or camp it with a counter unit. As for the ambush thing, I have what I think is a pretty good idea- When they are in area terrain, they always strike first the first turn of assault (regardless of grenades) and the enemy loses their extra charge attack (They are caught unaware and suddenly have to defend themselves) They could also ambush the turn they are revealed.

I like the Ambush idea. This makes them a huge threat vs small squishy squads that hide in cover for the 4+ save (I'm thinking heavy weapon squads, scout squads, etc.), and makes them much harder to be assaulted while in cover. Swarm armies like Nids or Orks won't give a crap if they go first or last, so they can still be assaulted by blobs, but suddenly Assault Marines and the like will start avoiding trees and such more than normal

For the deployment, I'm thinking the picking of 2 pieces of terrain would be good, especially since both you and your opponnent will have to plan for either terrain being the deployment one.

Scout Squads don't need anything more threatening them. They're overpriced in many cases(looking at you Dark Angels Codex. Overpriced AND an Elite choice. Bah.)

Heavy Weapon Squads, etc as well are fairly easy to counter with the things that already exist and would be countering them(Stealth Teams or Pathfinders with railrifles), so that's unnecessary.

Kanluwen wrote:Scout Squads don't need anything more threatening them. They're overpriced in many cases(looking at you Dark Angels Codex. Overpriced AND an Elite choice. Bah.)

Heavy Weapon Squads, etc as well are fairly easy to counter with the things that already exist and would be countering them(Stealth Teams or Pathfinders with railrifles), so that's unnecessary.

I wasn't targeting the scouts or heavy weapons, I just thought it might make them a bit more appealing.

The whole problem with the concept now is that, again, you're treading on toes of things that already exist.

They're bad "Scouts" because the Tau already have Scouts in the form of Pathfinders.
They're bad "Skirmishers" because Pathfinders fulfill the same role.
They're bad "Stealth" units because (obviously here ) the Stealth Suits fill this role.

Rather than design a new caste, let's just see about maybe making a "NextGen" Fire Warrior Team, eh?

The problem with Pathfinders being "Scouts" or "Skirmishers" is that you're taking avaluable unit with a Dumbfish handicap, and spending more points on it to force it into a seperate role (From fire support to... contesting objectives?).
Also, railrifles are nowhere near as effective as they should be (Thanks to 5th's cover everywhere), so in essence you're buying 12 pt fire warriors with carbines and a mandatory devilfish. If Pathfinders had Move through Cover or could fire their markerlights while moving, they'd be much better as mobile harassers.

As for Stealth teams, the proposed Shadow Warirors won't put out a tenth of the dakka they would, but could handle the close combat a lot better. We're trying to force the player to choose between a weak (total wounds-wise), high firepower suit unit designed to threaten at med range with a unit of tougher (wounds-wise), low firepower but high CC ability SW designed to threaten at close range.

I fully appreciate that it's splitting a fine hair, but I think giving the Tau an option for a non-Kroot CC unit that won't take an elite slot (If the SW are troops and iirc) but can still harass enemy squads would be a decent option.

The big rumor right now is that Pathfinders are losing the "Fishcap".

Tau Empire was written when universal rules weren't given out like candy, and Markerlights aren't meant to be fired while moving. Look up how modern laser designators for airstrikes and the like are used and you'll see what I mean. They're big, bulky things that you have to leave on the target for a long time.

And like I said earlier, if you want an option for a non-Kroot CC unit--then Tau is the wrong army to play, and using a Tau basis for it is the wrong way to go. I say the same thing about Guard, so it's not just a Tau thing.

The closest thing you should be seeing is Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines or some kind of 'Pulse Shotgun' equivalent.

Ugh, finally. Stupidest damn rule tactically even if it was fluffy. I think I agree Tau have skirmisher units options, it's just hampered by Pulse Carbines sucking and the abundance of Fearless in 5th.

Since you seem dead-set against the Shadow Warriors as part of the Tau army (Which is completely fine, and I understand why ), how would you feel about them being a separate army?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/388109.page

I'd feel about as accepting of them as a separate army as part of the Tau.

They don't fit. There's nothing unique or redeeming about them.

When you make things up for 40k, don't simply think "Oh man that's awesome!". Also think about "Would this fit? Is it necessary?".

It's fun to make awesome things, but in many cases these awesome things can already be represented in other ways.

I guess the "Is it necessary/unique?" part kinda bugs me, since there's 10^n Space Marine chapters, most of which are simply different color schemes, a fancy name for a gun or two, and a logo.

As for "fitting," I guess I'm having trouble seeing what would "fit" and what wouldn't, as 40K and it's universe has so many contradictions, retcons, and wtf elements it's hard to evaluate one thing as more "fitting" than another (The joekaro, for example. That's an example of something that was awkwardly crammed into the canon so someone could field an orangutan back in 2nd ed. Does that "fit" the grimdark setting as well as Space Marines or the Tyranids?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I'm asking what do you think would be good, non-minor improvements to something like Tau that would fit? I know there are some minor rule tweaks that would help, but do you have any ideas for larger changes for the army as a whole? (Not trying to be an ass or nix your ideas. I just want to see what stuff you think would fit better so I can figure out where I've crossed the boundaries for mine )

darkPrince010 wrote:I guess the "Is it necessary/unique?" part kinda bugs me, since there's 10^n Space Marine chapters, most of which are simply different color schemes, a fancy name for a gun or two, and a logo.

There's hundreds of Space Marine Chapters, many of which are unique in the way that they field things. The problem is that the tabletop doesn't always necessarily reflect this.
I'm kind of biased in that I play Dark Angels, the army that everyone keeps wanting rolled into the main Codex. Deathwing was, at one point, unique in that it could field more Terminators than any army out there. With the outset of Loganwing, Draigowing, and Knightwing--that uniqueness is gone. So what made Dark Angels unique is now gone.

As for "fitting," I guess I'm having trouble seeing what would "fit" and what wouldn't, as 40K and it's universe has so many contradictions, retcons, and wtf elements it's hard to evaluate one thing as more "fitting" than another (The Jokaero, for example. That's an example of something that was awkwardly crammed into the canon so someone could field an orangutan back in 2nd ed. Does that "fit" the grimdark setting as well as Space Marines or the Tyranids?)

The Jokaero do not "fit" the grimdark setting, just like the Tau in their early incarnation didn't fit it that well. The Jokaero were introduced before 2nd edition from what I know of, when 40k was still very much a tabletop RPG.

However, the thing to remember is that the Jokaero aren't actually a 'race' or a major power in and of themselves. They're essentially hyperintelligent primates that have an innate knack for creating machinery. There's no explanation for it, beyond they just know.

I guess I'm asking what do you think would be good, non-minor improvements to something like Tau that would fit? I know there are some minor rule tweaks that would help, but do you have any ideas for larger changes for the army as a whole? (Not trying to be an ass or nix your ideas. I just want to see what stuff you think would fit better so I can figure out where I've crossed the boundaries for mine )

In terms of adding things?
I'd break up Fire Warrior teams into two types.
Fire Warrior Support Teams(with Pulse Rifles, Markerlights, etc)
and
Fire Warrior Assault Teams. Pulse Carbines, grenades, Shield Drones, et al.

That's the biggest thing I can think of right now. I don't spend much time thinking about how to make Tau more 'effective' based on the current book, simply because there's a new book in the works and we have no real clue what will be in there.

I could accept making them separate FW squads, maybe putting them inside of the assault squad. The FW could shoot on the way up to the enemy while the SW give them CC survivability.

Kanluwen wrote:
In terms of adding things?
I'd break up Fire Warrior teams into two types.
Fire Warrior Support Teams(with Pulse Rifles, Markerlights, etc)
and
Fire Warrior Assault Teams. Pulse Carbines, grenades, Shield Drones, et al.

That's the biggest thing I can think of right now. I don't spend much time thinking about how to make Tau more 'effective' based on the current book, simply because there's a new book in the works and we have no real clue what will be in there.

I actually really like the sound of this. It would show the development of the Tau in understanding that close quarters fighting is a necessity against some foes and in some environments, but would be in keeping with their distaste for close quarters. The issue with trying to add a CC Tau is that the Kroot were designed entirely with that purpose in mind - the whole 'they really like making intergalactic friends' fluff point is solely there to allow for the Tau to hate CC and still have assault units in their army.

I also like that idea. It might overlap/make superflous the pathfinders, but it would also keep the Tau choices all one-job, instead of making FW teams ranged OR carbine-danger-close.

And I realize we have a book coming, but I can't wait that long (1 year? 2? Another decade?... )

I was hoping it was next in line after necrons (Like it should be) But I hear its gonna be CSM....