Player at Ard Boyz begins pulling out his Black Templar army... arranges everything in nice neat squads of ten, pulls out drop pods, razorbacks, etc...

Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

What do you do?

What do you say?

Extremely relevant to a local scenario for me, but I need some honest outside opinions on how to deal with this issue.

Thanks in advance guys, you rock!

Clearly he cares about his army...
Clearly he wants to compete with them...
And, though the long fangs are a little iffy considering they are BT counts as SW, i'd probably play him...
Especially if they were well painted.

"Oh, a counts-as army. Okay, everything's WYSIWYG? Cool, let's play."

Yeah, as long as it's all WYSIWYG I don't mind at all.

let him play... as far as i can tell the color schemes of your army do not determine what you are playing...

Sure, no troubles. I mean, they're little plastic guys, so as long as every rule he's rolling with is out of the SW Codex, and nothing is BT-related... sure, I'd play him. After all, it's not exactly a national tournament or anything.

As long as all the "counts as" units are declared before the game starts, and are identifiable, and remain under their "counts as" rules during the game, then there's really no problem, to be honest.

I can understand his reasons, but I feel that Templars are Templars and Space Wolves are Space Wolves. They have different Codexs and are different armies. If its just a friendly game, then whatever, but not at a tournament. I think its on par with pulling out Tau and calling them Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or maybe I'm just a prick... I seem to be in the minority.

Well, not really.

Power armor, check. Bolters, check. Missile Launchers, check...

See where I'm going with this?

Its most likely envy on my part. I've never owned or played a single space marine. So the idea of being able to pick up a different codex and play them as different guys is a strange thing to me...

Corey85 wrote:Its most likely envy on my part. I've never owned or played a single space marine. So the idea of being able to pick up a different codex and play them as different guys is a strange thing to me...

Never even played against a Space Marine? I find that pretty shocking, given how many Marine players there are.

I don't see this being a "controversy" at all; it's pretty cut and dry. Spacemans painted black instead of grey, properly modeled, no issue here.

Yeah, I'm a long time hobbyist but a recent gamer. I've been building minis for nine or so years now, but been gaming for about 10 months. My armies are modeled around fluff, not really designed for their ability to win. The small amount of games I've played have been against Necrons, Eldar and Tau. I stopped playing 40k and went to warmachine about 7 months ago, so that about 3 months of on and off 40k games.

So, I've always felt that armies should be what they are built as, but clearly this is from a person who doesn't play.

I would also like to point out that I highly doubt I would say no to someones face if they did this.

The best part of playing with power armor is you can use any book as long as your WYSIWYG. I constantly tell people who complain about their chaos armies to just run them as space wolves or blood angles so id be the last person to complain. Power armor is power armor SM should be one big book as far as im concerned.

The Space Wolf codex is actually a fairly decent choice for a counts as BT army.

I'm fine with count's as armies, as long as it's made VERY clear what is what or it's wysiwyg.

I've played against squats counts as IG, Blood angels counts as GK chaos cultists (don't ask.. i just let it go, given that the new GK book considers sorcery to be kosher and the new models were only just out a week before) and Chaos Daemons counts as Tyranids (with a soulgrinder tervigon popping bloodletters like no tommorrow... very unsettling to see ).

Marine as other marine *shrug*

At least the guy actually paints his minis, rather than having them be the Sons of Grey Plastic

Sure, go ahead. I'm guessing by your avatar that you're gauging people's reaction to you playing your own BT army as SWs?

It's not as confusing as my Night Lords that use the BA codex.

WYSIWYG doesn't extend to paint.

Corey85 wrote:Yeah, I'm a long time hobbyist but a recent gamer. I've been building minis for nine or so years now, but been gaming for about 10 months. My armies are modeled around fluff, not really designed for their ability to win. The small amount of games I've played have been against Necrons, Eldar and Tau. I stopped playing 40k and went to warmachine about 7 months ago, so that about 3 months of on and off 40k games.

So, I've always felt that armies should be what they are built as, but clearly this is from a person who doesn't play.

I would also like to point out that I highly doubt I would say no to someones face if they did this.

I totally get your viewpoint, and I'm pretty much right there with you - if the guy was using Black Templars and their actual codex, I'd think it was really cool that this guy was using a kind of wacky codex instead of something more popular, recent, and powerful. As you said though, you wouldn't say no to the guy.

Yeah, its always easy to stick to lofty standards over the internet, but when actually dealing with people face to face, I think most of us put aside our ideal situations and just try to work with it.

I suppose I reverse my response.

Play by the rules, play him. Paint doesn't mean anything in Ard Boyz.

Crusher050 wrote:let him play... as far as i can tell the color schemes of your army do not determine what you are playing...

Yeah so let imperial guard have a space marine codex.

Its not good, he painted black templars, the army is black templars so he should use the black templar codex. If he does not like the codex, then he should not have chosen to collect the black templars

SSsilverskullSS wrote:
Yeah so let imperial guard have a space marine codex.

Its not good, he painted black templars, the army is black templars so he should use the black templar codex. If he does not like the codex, then he should not have chosen to collect the black templars

It's different. Space Marine Armies are practically interchangable except for color scheme.

It's obvious that he cares about his army, and I'm not going to hold it against him that time has not been time to his codex. It seems unfair to think that someone shouldn't be able to proxy their army, simply because they made a choice a long time ago.

Given that he seems to have put thought into this, I have no problems with this guy.

If he tells you that during warp transit somehow the geller fields broke and the warp changed thier armour colour, why not?
But seriously go ahead and play, the guy seems like a person who loves his models.

SSsilverskullSS wrote:

Crusher050 wrote:let him play... as far as i can tell the color schemes of your army do not determine what you are playing...

Yeah so let imperial guard have a space marine codex.

Its not good, he painted black templars, the army is black templars so he should use the black templar codex. If he does not like the codex, then he should not have chosen to collect the black templars

I wasn't aware that Black Templar bolters and missile launchers looked so different from Space Wolf bolters and missile launchers.

He could have painted them pink and still used the Space Wolves codex. Or the Black Templar codex for that matter. The color doesn't matter.

its nothing personal its just that, he chose a black templar army, so he should use their codex

I'd let them do it. A marine army is a marine army, all that really changes is paint colour and equipment.

I would have absolutely no problem playing the guy! Seriously! Why get your undergarments all up in a knot about a GAME of LIL PLASTIC MEN?

AS LONG AS HE DOESNT POWER PLAY!

SSsilverskullSS wrote:its nothing personal its just that, he chose a black templar army, so he should use their codex

So? People can't try anything new without painting a whole new army?

"Cool, is it all WYSIWYG?"

"Great, would you be so kind as to run me through which units are which?"

"Awesome. Let's go."

"No, I don't mind at all. I don't get confused by the colours at all. I mean why would I? This is no different than somebody playing red/black/silver Dark Angels, blue Space Wolves or green Blood Angels."

So long as it is wysiwyg, I have no problem with it. My marines are my custom chapter and "counts as" is standard.

Now if they were trying to play as GK, then I'd have a problem.

Lobukia wrote: Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

"Nice paint job, I wish i had that much free time to work on my guys"
"Could you give me a quick run down of whats what"
"Lets roll to see who goes first"

SSsilverskullSS wrote:its nothing personal its just that, he chose a black templar army, so he should use their codex

I didn't realise collecting black space men meant i couldn't use them as grey space men. My bad.

Most of the responses in this thread are just plain slowed.

Paint =/= Army , especially in Ard Boyz. The only time that argument can be made is if it's a hardcore theme tournament, which again Ard Boyz is not.

You also have to consider that this "space wolves" army would probably be the only painted space wolves army in the tourney...

Let him play!

Do it to it. WYSIWYG works fine with me.

Marines are marines are marines are marines. They might have long fangs instead of devastators, ride wolves instead of bikes, and be blue/grey instead of black/tan, but there is no problem with a count as WYSIWYG army. Paint job and fiddly bits have no bearing on what codex I can play.

I personally have a chapter I made myself and run them as vanilla marines, but there is no rule that says I can't run them as SW, BT, or BA if I so choose.

To be picky against your opponent's army simply because it is painted like a different over powered space god army is to be TFG.

-cgmckenze

Seeing as the 'problem' could be solved with a can of gray spray paint, I'd have no problem with it. Sure, it must annoy xenos players they can't codex hop quite so easily, but that's life.

I don't see how this is even a question.

"They are a successor chapter of the Space Wolves who just happen to look like Black Templars. Crazy, huh?" for those who are REALY nitpicky.

Next thing you know, the count-as Deathwing army I'm doing with CSM Termies is going to be a problem.

i would have no problem with this at all, the same wy i dont have a problem that my friend wanted to used a metal model Tiger tank as a land raider, he told me its options and its about the same size, if he cant afford to buy a land raider then its not a problem, the same way a marine play mighht only be able to afford one bunch of marines, not 20

For me personally if it's:

1) Cool
2) WYSIWYG
3) Not blatantly modelling for advantage

Then get those dice out and lets go

Really, I'd have no problem with it. He's probably had those models for a while now, and I wouldn't make him buy a whole new army with the price hikes just to see how the new army plays.

In your theoretical. 'Ard boyz game, they could be grey plastic, but they have to be WYSIWYG. One of the bonuses of playing the emperor's chosen is that you can play the ultradarkgreybloodfisttemplarmanderwolves.

I'd have no problem with it, but you should tell him he's still able to compete with Templars. We have a guy in our local circuit who regularly takes 1st and 2nd in tournaments at 2k and 2500 playing Black Templars.

I'd play him but I'd keep hinting at how despicable I consider it to claim that you're a dedicated Templars player while jumping to the Space Wolf Codex when the Black Templars Codex is perfectly competitive. I don't have anything against people who want to play with a stronger Codex, but when they spout the "oh, I'm actually dedicated to this or that Chapter" when they've just gone for the easy way I become, for lack of a better word, infuriated. Especially as I play Black Templars myself.

I would say they were more Invested in a certain chapter.

Just a case of GW brainwashing you into having multiple armies of the same space marine models.

For me, what I would do in the OP's scenario is relative to the situation. I might roll my eyes if this happened at a tournament, but at the end of the day, I'd rather play against a beautifully painted BT army, controlled by a decent fellow using SW rules any day of the week as opposed to to a win-at-all-costs gamer using a crappy painted blood angels army, which happens to be the correct codex color.

On the other hand, I'd have more respect for the guy if he played his army as 'Black Templars,' regardless of competitiveness, and found a way to win as such.

Clearly this is awhy i dont compete in aRd boys. I prefer tournis where there is comp, painting and sportsmanship. Last ard boys i was in there was a bunch of termis being fielded without any heads, unpainted armies etc. I feel like people who buy marines and play them as whatever codex they feel like at the time, need to just figure out what they like and stick too it. This is not based on any real reasoning. its just how i feel.

As long as everything is clear and obvious, I don't care. It's a great idea till BT get a new book.

According to the fluff, it angers the Machine Spirit to change the paint on vehicles and armor. There are lots of Chapters that use battlefield pickups that have their original paint on them. They even touch the paint up, just to make sure. The more active Chapters probably look like they have patchwork armor. A pauldron from a Blood Angel here, an elbow from a Dark Angel there. Ultramarines driving in a Salamander tank (with the proper Ultramarine weapons, of course). Eventually the vehicle would have more and more symbols put on it by the crew, but the original chapter's colors would still be there in some way.

I run my Dark Angels as Vanilla Marines all the time so I can use the new vehicles the DA couldn't use, like my original Razorback with the Lascannon/Plasma guns and my original Thudd gun. I use the regular Space Marine codex, of course because a bolter is a bolter is a bolter.

Wolves players seem to be pretty touchy about such things, as acknowledging that they have the best codex in the game at the moment appears to be something they don't enjoy doing, but, honestly? I can see the rationale behind using Space Wolves to represent Black Templars. If you don't take a Rune Priest, you have an army that's quite functional in close combat, with powerful melee-oriented leaders, and, geez, what's more knightly than cavalry?

OMG,

BT counts as TWC



dammit, now I want a new army

SSsilverskullSS wrote:its nothing personal its just that, he chose a black templar army, so he should use their codex

What if he chose Space Wolves but just painted them like the Black Templar, never bringing up the fact that he used a Black Templar army before.

Called them "Shadow Wolves" or something like that, his own made up Successor Chapter. Would that have bothered you?

SO i could use my eldar to play as my dark eldar? it just dosn't seem 'Fair' to all the rest of the players IMO

Brother SRM wrote:"Oh, a counts-as army. Okay, everything's WYSIWYG? Cool, let's play."

Sounds about right.


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TheWildHost wrote:SO i could use my eldar to play as my dark eldar? it just dosn't seem 'Fair' to all the rest of the players IMO

If your eldar all had splinter rifles and other such dark eldar weaponry, sure!

Lobukia wrote:Player at Ard Boyz begins pulling out his Black Templar army... arranges everything in nice neat squads of ten, pulls out drop pods, razorbacks, etc...

Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

What do you do?

What do you say?

Extremely relevant to a local scenario for me, but I need some honest outside opinions on how to deal with this issue.

Thanks in advance guys, you rock!

The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

Alazahr wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Player at Ard Boyz begins pulling out his Black Templar army... arranges everything in nice neat squads of ten, pulls out drop pods, razorbacks, etc...

Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

What do you do?

What do you say?

Extremely relevant to a local scenario for me, but I need some honest outside opinions on how to deal with this issue.

Thanks in advance guys, you rock!

The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

+1 to this.

Alazahr wrote:

The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

First of all, I don't play BT (see my sig), so lets get past that now.

Also, Ard Boyz rules are clear for SM, paint, or lack thereof, has no bearing on a codex or a list. WYSIWYG is defined as pertaining to equipment, not color.

You have all given me much to think about, and I thank you for your replies. I run a young club and several of the members want to try some "unorthodox" practices for their first Ard Boyz, and I want them to be aware of how their/my actions will be perceived... I just didn't honestly know what that perception was, so I came here to find out. Thank you

Since no one cares about the codexes and plays willy-nilly with the counts-as rule, sure fine, whatever. At least he showed up to Ard Boyz with a painted army...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Since no one cares about the codexes and plays willy-nilly with the counts-as rule, sure fine, whatever. At least he showed up to Ard Boyz with a painted army...

Does my Blood Angels successor have to be red? Does my Dark Angels successor have to be green? What if I use Vulkan in an army that isn't painted like Salamanders, or Lysander in one that's not bright yellow?

One PA armor loyalist for another is pretty straight forward at 'Ard Boyz.

Taking it to the next step- What if someone used rubber bands to attach death wing termies to dreadnoughts, and replaced the dreadnaught arms with bloodthirster ones with storm bolters hastily glued on to make a trio of naked dread knights?

I could come up with a silly plot that justifies why Space Wolves would suddenly dress up as Black Templars.

Space Wolves disguised as Black Templar!? The person who came up with that idea must be some kind of tactical geni-



CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Indiges wrote:One PA armor loyalist for another is pretty straight forward at 'Ard Boyz.

Taking it to the next step- What if someone used rubber bands to attach death wing termies to dreadnoughts, and replaced the dreadnaught arms with bloodthirster ones with storm bolters hastily glued on to make a trio of naked dread knights?

I think I'd allow this conversion. /joking Seriously, a Dreadnought w/ Bloodthirster CC Weapons? Yeah... It better be Khorne CSM.

-J.

Whenever I see this happen, I always feel like my generosity is being abused a little bit. I'll politely play against such an opponent, but I don't find this move to be in the spirit of good sportsmanship - it just smacks of min-maxing to me. It also seems to put an undue burden on the person playing against the counts-as army, as it seems the WYSIWYG is never as cut and dried as you might like.

But, I am still playing the Dark Angels codex despite repeated suggestions that I switch to Codex: Space Wolves, so I may have a personal interest here.

They're marines, and they're not 'out there' as far as weaponry goes like GK are. I'd play them. If this is worth throwing a hissy fit over, then I can throw a fit because you're using Eldrad in your Saim-hann painted Eldar army.


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jwoolf wrote:Whenever I see this happen, I always feel like my generosity is being abused a little bit. I'll politely play against such an opponent, but I don't find this move to be in the spirit of good sportsmanship - it just smacks of min-maxing to me. It also seems to put an undue burden on the person playing against the counts-as army, as it seems the WYSIWYG is never as cut and dried as you might like.

But it can be. Don't stereotype and judge each situation on a case by base basis. OP says that in this case WYSIWYG works for this army, so it does. I seldom see a marine army that's WYSIWYG, even when it's painted what it's supposed to be. That's just how it goes sometimes.

But, I am still playing the Dark Angels codex despite repeated suggestions that I switch to Codex: Space Wolves, so I may have a personal interest here.

Not sure what kind of DA you play, but it's probably about as good as SW right now, especially with the Storm Shield update.

I see that many people agree that its okay to interchange codexes between loyalists, but what about csm, I love their models but their codex is pretty lacking and any competitve list is pretty boring/static. If a person modeled csm as wysiwyg and used a loyalist codex would that be a problem. In terms of fluff I think it would fit considering there have been a few chapters to go renegade since the heresy, it doesn't make sense that they some how lost the use of their landspeeders, thundershields, razorbacks, drop pods, ect... just by going chaos.

if your CSM were all WYSIWYG that it would be all good. you could just say they are recently turned renagade and still have all their old equipment.

I hope people don't find problems with that. My Relictors sternguard are modeled as wearing pieces of CSM armor. Also, if you're not using cult troops, basically the only difference between CSM and SM is gear. Why would they toss away their Storm Shields and start using worse storm bolters?

daedalus wrote:
Not sure what kind of DA you play, but it's probably about as good as SW right now, especially with the Storm Shield update.

Wait what? No, just no. Viable? Yes. On-par with Space Wolves? Not a chance.

daedalus wrote:I hope people don't find problems with that. My Relictors sternguard are modeled as wearing pieces of CSM armor. Also, if you're not using cult troops, basically the only difference between CSM and SM is gear. Why would they toss away their Storm Shields and start using worse storm bolters?

maybe the chapter only had tactical terminators

Sure, but then they take their storm bolters and switch them to 'twin-linked bolter' mode? I can't think of a single situation that would be advantageous in.

TL-bolters are actually better within 12" cause you get 2 TL shots.

but the poster was thinking of using the Vanilla Codex and CSM models so its all a moot point.

Grey Templar wrote:TL-bolters are actually better within 12" cause you get 2 TL shots.

but the poster was thinking of using the Vanilla Codex and CSM models so its all a moot point.

Yea pretty much, though one could make the argument for SW codex as well as possible dark angels codex (space wolves who turned and sided with Huron at the wolf of fenris incident and Fallen Angels). Other codexes are a bit of a stretch, has anyone heard of BA or BT turned chaos?

Spartan089 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:TL-bolters are actually better within 12" cause you get 2 TL shots.

but the poster was thinking of using the Vanilla Codex and CSM models so its all a moot point.

Yea pretty much, though one could make the argument for SW codex as well as possible dark angels codex (space wolves who turned and sided with Huron at the wolf of fenris incident and Fallen Angels). Other codexes are a bit of a stretch, has anyone heard of BA or BT turned chaos?

Grey Knights supposedly are the only Chapter from which no Marine ever turned. By implications, all others have had to contend with that.

As far as Blood Angels are concerned, we know at least that successors like the Knights of Blood turned renegade. Black Templars are Imperial Fist by geneseed, so you'd be looking the way of Soul Drinkers and their like.

My only problem with MEQ armies and "counts as" and "WYSIWYG" is that they are not playing as what they are intended to be.

If he was running them as vanilla marines, then I would have no problem with that. But if he wants to play them as Space Wolves, then he should buy space wolf models, or have reasonably similar models and paint schemes.

I felt the same way concerning Eldar armies, back when they had the ability to do something similar. If you want to run the army, then the models and paint scheme should have some basis and rationale in the fluff. They don't have to be exact, but there has to be a reasonable ratinale for why they are different. "My army sux and this one is better" is not sufficient to be justifiable, IMHO.

Particularly with 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where there is no painting requirement...

This wouldn't bother me. What would bother me is if the player got annoyed every time I asked him what each unit was. Because I would be doing that throughout the game.

I think this is not a player issue but a game issue. GW is to blame for this. I feel sorry for people who put alot of time into an army that they feel is competitive only to see that change completely. Each new edition of 40k should be followed by updated armies. Balance can never be achieved across every army, but you would like to see each army be somewhat competitive.

Lobukia wrote:
Then he pulls out Codex: Space Wolves! He explains that his lovingly (and very well) painted Templars are his babies, but they just can't compete. So using them as Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Wolf Scouts works out great and gives his expensive and well done army new life. Everything is WYSIWYG and the "counts as" is extremely straight forward and clear.

What do you think?

Painted miniatures at 'Ard Boys? This travesty should not exist.

Lobukia wrote:
What do you do?

Take a big sledgehammer and smash his abominable army to pieces.

Lobukia wrote:
What do you say?

Look, over there, they sell GW products. Go over there and get yourself a grey-plastic-tide like everybody else. If I ever catch you again going for an advantage in upstarting your fellow competitiors with this filthy and unsporting "I-am-better-than-though, I-paint-my-minis"-strategy I will personally report you to GWs 40K-Inquisition.

^^^win

I would not be surprised if GW offered you a job under "customer management" if you were serious.

Eldanar wrote:My only problem with MEQ armies and "counts as" and "WYSIWYG" is that they are not playing as what they are intended to be.

If he was running them as vanilla marines, then I would have no problem with that. But if he wants to play them as Space Wolves, then he should buy space wolf models, or have reasonably similar models and paint schemes.

I felt the same way concerning Eldar armies, back when they had the ability to do something similar. If you want to run the army, then the models and paint scheme should have some basis and rationale in the fluff. They don't have to be exact, but there has to be a reasonable ratinale for why they are different. "My army sux and this one is better" is not sufficient to be justifiable, IMHO.

Particularly with 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where there is no painting requirement...

WYSIWYG doesn't apply to color. There's really no way it could, with a few of the variant codices having successors listed in the books themselves. Not all BA successors are red, not all DA successors are green. GW has also shown us that chapter iconography can get recycled - see Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists, for one of the more prominent examples.

yeah, a person is perfectly entitled to like the BT look and appearence, but like the Space Wolf rules.


at least the army is fully painted to a good standard.

Spartan089 wrote:I see that many people agree that its okay to interchange codexes between loyalists, but what about csm, I love their models but their codex is pretty lacking and any competitve list is pretty boring/static. If a person modeled csm as wysiwyg and used a loyalist codex would that be a problem. In terms of fluff I think it would fit considering there have been a few chapters to go renegade since the heresy, it doesn't make sense that they some how lost the use of their landspeeders, thundershields, razorbacks, drop pods, ect... just by going chaos.

Not so much a problem if they're "per-heresy". Then again I suppose the complaint can come that they wouldn't be in per-heresy armor... I've wanted a per-heresy Emperor's Children army for a long while now...

-J.

In principle I wouldn't have a problem with this if it meant getting a game or not, but to be honest if you've picked an army you should man up and battle with them - not start to wimp out if things start getting tough. Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

Seaward wrote:

Eldanar wrote:My only problem with MEQ armies and "counts as" and "WYSIWYG" is that they are not playing as what they are intended to be.

If he was running them as vanilla marines, then I would have no problem with that. But if he wants to play them as Space Wolves, then he should buy space wolf models, or have reasonably similar models and paint schemes.

I felt the same way concerning Eldar armies, back when they had the ability to do something similar. If you want to run the army, then the models and paint scheme should have some basis and rationale in the fluff. They don't have to be exact, but there has to be a reasonable ratinale for why they are different. "My army sux and this one is better" is not sufficient to be justifiable, IMHO.

Particularly with 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where there is no painting requirement...

WYSIWYG doesn't apply to color. There's really no way it could, with a few of the variant codices having successors listed in the books themselves. Not all BA successors are red, not all DA successors are green. GW has also shown us that chapter iconography can get recycled - see Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists, for one of the more prominent examples.

I understand that. My comments concerning the WYSIWYG reference were geared more to the inevitable "my chaplain on a bike is really a wolflord on a wolf..."

To me it would be no different than playing an 'Ard Boyz game against an unpainted army, sure I would wish it was painted or painted with an appropriate scheme but it doesn't have to be. Especially if everything is WYSIWYG

monkeyh wrote:In principle I wouldn't have a problem with this if it meant getting a game or not, but to be honest if you've picked an army you should man up and battle with them - not start to wimp out if things start getting tough. Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

This is a far more direct version of my position.

I think that having an army modelled as a Canon chapter, but played as a different one, is allowable, but pretty confusing to opponents.

On the other hand, it's ridiculous to ask a person to build the same model (power armor, bolters, rhinos), but with different bling.

I think if there's a place for it, it's Ard Boys.

monkeyh wrote:Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

Totally not your call to "Let him off this time" or any other time. This is a tournament. The TO is letting him use it. Sit it out and get a zero for that round if you want.

If the missile launchers look like missile launchers, and the power fists look like power fists, it makes zero difference if they're painted like blood angels, black templars, Ultramarines, or whatever. He is free to play them as Space Wolves.

The problem is 100% yours.

monkeyh wrote:In principle I wouldn't have a problem with this if it meant getting a game or not, but to be honest if you've picked an army you should man up and battle with them - not start to wimp out if things start getting tough. Tell him you'll let him off this time, but next time to dig out his BT codex and his b***s and get on with it - if he wants to use space wolves then get some space wolves

Where do you draw the line? What if someone has space wolf models, but dislikes the colors and painted theirs yellow? What if they kitbashed stuff to come up with a more unique army?

"Your army doesn't have enough beards and is slightly too blue and not enough blue-grey. I forbid you the Space Wolf codex and demand that you use the Space Marine codex, swine."

If everything is clear enough, I'd play him. Specially if they're well painted

It still doesn't make it any less of a problem for that guy. If you don't want to play a guy with a Black Templars painted Space Wolves army then it's your decision, I personally agree to an extent. I would, simply because it's Ard' Boys, but in a tournament that requires fully painted and completed armies then no, I wouldn't. Black Templars have their own codex, don't paint them is Black and White if you think it can't compete, or simply don't come to the tournament. Space Wolves have their own models, using counts as simply because he wants to win, despite apparently loving his Black Templars so much, doesn't sit right with me.

doen and done.. power armor is power armor, my orks can't tell them apart except them blood angels (they go fasta)

but yea my marines are a custom paint so i can use any space marines rules I want to avoid this issue... not that I'd use anything but vanilla marines or black templar atm, the rest is WAY to OP and it feels like cheating to use em

I would just stay "That's fine WAAC man, lets game" And dock him for points if there is the option to.

Wrong-coloured plastic space mans are serious business.

Guess I can't use these as Blood Angels, huh?



Or these as Dark Angels:



While I personally would frown upon it in this situation (and even a phrase as mild as "frown upon" is still too strong to describe my feeling toward it), I wouldn't really care, say anything, or even be remotely phased by it. Technically you can paint whatever chapter whatever colour you damn well please and it's perfectly OK. The only thing I can think of that might be a problem would be TWC, but I don't even know how common that unit is in a SW army.

If we're going this route, then you better not be using al'Rahem unless you're using all Tallarn models (Ha ha ha, like that's gonna happen) and Dark Gods help you if you have both Tzeentch and Nurgle troops in the same army!

If I was still buying GW stuff I'd be sorely tempted to buy a bunch of Grey Knights and paint them like Ultramarines, or perhaps bright bubblegum pink just to annoy srs bzns types.

Well, I'd turn you down because, as EVERYONE knows, beakies are frowned upon in polite society anyway.

Refusing to play a person in this situation is like arguing that because the glow stick color is not green it can't be glow in the dark.


Stupid and pointless.



WYSIWYG is the only important thing to me. because that is the rules. a color scheme is not.

There are NO rules that say the army has to be painted like the ones in the books. Having SW painted like BA, BT, or even ultramarines is legal.

His army is WYSIWYG; PA without a wolf hide cape is still a 3+ save, a flamer without the salamander's dragon mouth still uses a template to count hits, and a rhino with the ultra marines omega can still run as a blood angel rhino.

If you have a problem with his beautifully painted army running as a different loyalist chapter while being WYSIWYG, you are TFG.

-cgmckenzie

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

Please dial down the hostility rather than making this personal. Thanks!

1. I'd much rather, as a player, play a well painted BT "counts as" army than have every army painted as SW or GK... or worse, unpainted. It's less than ideal but we don't live in a perfect world.

2. The rules seem to favor it if it's all modelled correctly.

3. BT are the most prolific parent chapter, are they not? Rather than "Black Templar can look like anything", this could be an inversion... anything can look like a Black Templar. Why? When parent chapters hive off they often will send divergent elements of their own chapter there to purge themselves, while allowing their brothers to do their own thing. So a umpteenth founding chapter retains a lot of BT iconography and picks up a taste for more special weapons and veteran HW squads. Meanwhile they continue to manifest the BT love for H2H but do so in a slightly different way. It's all good. Nothing to call the Inquisition over.

4. On a non rules note; How sad that GW choses to orphan significant chapters to the point that this is even a question! It's bad enough when I find myself thinking of using my Khorne army as Blood Angels... (same colors, same bloodlust, same anger management problems, furious charge and feel no pain make sense, Bloodthirster will make a good Sanguinator.)

Nothing wrong with a little marine for marine counts-as. But if he wants to play his BT models with codex SW he should refrain from a few things, such as using scouts because space wolves scouts could only be more of an opposite to the BT equivalent of a scout if they wore terminator armour.

There are way too many tin boy codices out there to keep them all up to par with the current standard so i don't blame anyone who decides to play his guys for something that is essentially little more than the same guys with a different colour.
in favour
Also i'm generally of suiting counts-as, even (and especially) if someone comes up with something completely out of this universe. I love playing unusual armies and have a bunch of exodites myself that i run as eldar with an emphasis on jetbikes and wraithlords. (i would also use wraithguard but i havent foudn anything that would suit their statline AND wit on a 25 mm base)

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

@Manchu - Note received.

@ph34r - I don't understand how GW represents everyone as a collective whole. Just because they said so doesn't make it true. By your basis a person that sets down an Iyanden Craftworld Eldar army and then proceeds to say, "Oh, they're Ulthwe." is on the same terms w/ the OP. How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

I am wrong and ignorant? These are my opinions; opinions can not be wrong. The original state of the comments was, "Guy throws down one painted color army and uses the rules from another painted army." My opinion is that it is NOT WYSIWYG. Let's break that down if we could:

What
You
See
Is
What
You
Get

I SEE Black Templar, I GET Space Wolves. Hmmm... Paint is a part of WYSIWYG from my perspective. I stand by what I said.

-J.

RatBot wrote:

Guess I can't use these as Blood Angels, huh?



Or these as Dark Angels:

Quoting myself to prove a point. Those aren't Blood Angels or Dark Angels, so I can't use them as such, correct?

Alazahr wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

@Manchu - Note received.

@ph34r - I don't understand how GW represents everyone as a collective whole. Just because they said so doesn't make it true. By your basis a person that sets down an Iyanden Craftworld Eldar army and then proceeds to say, "Oh, they're Ulthwe." is on the same terms w/ the OP. How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

I am wrong and ignorant? These are my opinions; opinions can not be wrong. The original state of the comments was, "Guy throws down one painted color army and uses the rules from another painted army." My opinion is that it is NOT WYSIWYG. Let's break that down if we could:

What
You
See
Is
What
You
Get

I SEE Black Templar, I GET Space Wolves. Hmmm... Paint is a part of WYSIWYG from my perspective. I stand by what I said.

-J.

If you SEE marines, you GET marines. As long as they do not have black templars unique wargear, there is no problem.

GW made the rule WYSIWYG, they also made the rule that you are allowed to use your marines as any type of marine rules you want. That is literally said in the Marine codex. Perhaps you should spend some more time reading your codex, and less time getting angry at what color peoples' marines are for no reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

@Manchu - Note received.

@ph34r - I don't understand how GW represents everyone as a collective whole. Just because they said so doesn't make it true. By your basis a person that sets down an Iyanden Craftworld Eldar army and then proceeds to say, "Oh, they're Ulthwe." is on the same terms w/ the OP. How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

I am wrong and ignorant? These are my opinions; opinions can not be wrong. The original state of the comments was, "Guy throws down one painted color army and uses the rules from another painted army." My opinion is that it is NOT WYSIWYG. Let's break that down if we could:

What
You
See
Is
What
You
Get

I SEE Black Templar, I GET Space Wolves. Hmmm... Paint is a part of WYSIWYG from my perspective. I stand by what I said.

-J.

If you SEE marines, you GET marines. As long as they do not have black templars unique wargear, there is no problem.

GW made the rule WYSIWYG, they also made the rule that you are allowed to use your marines as any type of marine rules you want. That is literally said in the Marine codex. Perhaps you should spend some more time reading your codex, and less time getting angry at what color peoples' marines are for no reason.

How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

Some people are confused by big numbers or flashy colors. Luckily we do not have to tailor our armies to reduce their confusion!




Actually, now that I think about it, you are right! I think that nobody should be able to use the same color scheme as anyone else! For example, my cousin billy is absolutely awful at 40k, and he plays Iyanden! If I fight against someone else that plays Iyanden that doesn't suck, that causes a great amount of confusion for me! I have learned his magnitude of sucking to a fine letter "t" by facing him!

As I was being respectful to the OP and Mods I will be removing myself from this topic. I feel your insults have been reduced to nothing, but insults and sarcasm. "ph34r" if you would like to continue to discuss this thread, in any form, please contact me via PM and we may do so.

-J.

Alazahr wrote:As I was being respectful to the OP and Mods I will be removing myself from this topic. I feel your insults have been reduced to nothing, but insults and sarcasm. "ph34r" if you would like to continue to discuss this thread, in any form, please contact me via PM and we may do so.

-J.

As I similarly feel that your argument has been reduced to "not reading the space marine codex", I agree with you that our discussion is not making ground and has no point in continuing. Good day sir.

I still think the opponent should stick to his guns and play the BT's as they are. As someone who puts a lot of time and effort into making my CSM models look right, I'd never use plague marines as Thousand sons for example, and quite frankly I'd be a bit miffed if my oppo did the equivalent. If you are using Imperial marines and you want to swap from standard codex chapters (say Ultra Marines to Crimson Fists so you can try using Pedro Kantor for a change) isn't too bad, but changing to something that's got it's own specific codex? I don't think it's really in the spirit of the game to change to something just to increase your chance of winning so shouldn't be done. If you want to use some Space Wolves - get some and fight them along-side your Black Templars.

monkeyh wrote:I still think the opponent should stick to his guns and play the BT's as they are. As someone who puts a lot of time and effort into making my CSM models look right, I'd never use plague marines as Thousand sons for example, and quite frankly I'd be a bit miffed if my oppo did the equivalent. If you are using Imperial marines and you want to swap from standard codex chapters (say Ultra Marines to Crimson Fists so you can try using Pedro Kantor for a change) isn't too bad, but changing to something that's got it's own specific codex? I don't think it's really in the spirit of the game to change to something just to increase your chance of winning so shouldn't be done. If you want to use some Space Wolves - get some and fight them along-side your Black Templars.

What if you REALLY like the models for BT (IMO they are the best looking SM models out there) but don't like their rule set? Or you want to have an all assault marine list? Or things like devastator squads? Or if you bought SW because you just like their LOOK but just want to play them as basic marines?

I think the problem most people have with this idea is that he's using a decent (yeah, yeah, "best", whatever) codex in a tournament instead of a completely outdated codex. If he had a bunch of Space Wolves painted up and was running them as Black Templars, nobody would care.

Shrike325 wrote:
I think the problem most people have with this idea is that he's using a decent (yeah, yeah, "best", whatever) codex in a tournament instead of a completely outdated codex. If he had a bunch of Space Wolves painted up and was running them as Black Templars, nobody would care.

I'd care a great deal, as it'd mean the BTs got a new, awesome codex. Nobody ever "counts as" to actually downgrade their effectiveness.

Brother SRM wrote:"Oh, a counts-as army. Okay, everything's WYSIWYG? Cool, let's play."

This and tell him that Templars can still compete with their codex, in fact they can do very, very well.

And can really throw off people with set expectations.

I lance your tanks with my shiny new lance-happy DE. Your metal boxes are mine... bwuahahahaha


'Um, no. You don't. Now about that.. My Crusaders open up on all those nice exposed flying gondolas with paper armour '

BT are awesome. If i ever get back to playing SM's it'll be them.

Shrike325 wrote:

monkeyh wrote:I still think the opponent should stick to his guns and play the BT's as they are. As someone who puts a lot of time and effort into making my CSM models look right, I'd never use plague marines as Thousand sons for example, and quite frankly I'd be a bit miffed if my oppo did the equivalent. If you are using Imperial marines and you want to swap from standard codex chapters (say Ultra Marines to Crimson Fists so you can try using Pedro Kantor for a change) isn't too bad, but changing to something that's got it's own specific codex? I don't think it's really in the spirit of the game to change to something just to increase your chance of winning so shouldn't be done. If you want to use some Space Wolves - get some and fight them along-side your Black Templars.

What if you REALLY like the models for BT (IMO they are the best looking SM models out there) but don't like their rule set? Or you want to have an all assault marine list? Or things like devastator squads? Or if you bought SW because you just like their LOOK but just want to play them as basic marines?

I think the problem most people have with this idea is that he's using a decent (yeah, yeah, "best", whatever) codex in a tournament instead of a completely outdated codex. If he had a bunch of Space Wolves painted up and was running them as Black Templars, nobody would care.

I still think if you're not entirely happy with just playing BT's then throw some different chapters into the mix (this could actually work to your advantage). You don't have to stick exclusively to fielding just one chapter. I don't with my CSM's. If it suites, I'll play a mix of Death Guard and World Eaters.

Personally I think that the people complaining about this need to pull their head out. Not everyone can afford to buy more models just because they want to field another army, expecially when the army they want to field is all but the same. Hell, I probably _can_ afford to, but I can't even find the time to paint one army. I do a model now and again, and slowly but surely they get painted. But if he's not happy with his Templar codex and wants to play space wolves, but not a)buy an entirely new army then paint it or b) strip and repaint his models to just so they're the right colors why in the sphincter of hell should it bug you? If it confuses you that much, perhaps you should find another game? Because you obviously can't remember some fairly simple things.
Personally I love the look/feel of the wolves, but don't like the colors. Are you really going to not play me because I decided to field a wolves army that's red/purple? What about if I love the look of DA, but like the feel of a SW army? seriously people, if it bugs you that people are doing this you're forgetting the most important rule: have fun.

CoI wrote:Personally I think that the people complaining about this need to pull their head out. Not everyone can afford to buy more models just because they want to field another army, expecially when the army they want to field is all but the same. Hell, I probably _can_ afford to, but I can't even find the time to paint one army. I do a model now and again, and slowly but surely they get painted. But if he's not happy with his Templar codex and wants to play space wolves, but not a)buy an entirely new army then paint it or b) strip and repaint his models to just so they're the right colors why in the sphincter of hell should it bug you? If it confuses you that much, perhaps you should find another game? Because you obviously can't remember some fairly simple things.
Personally I love the look/feel of the wolves, but don't like the colors. Are you really going to not play me because I decided to field a wolves army that's red/purple? What about if I love the look of DA, but like the feel of a SW army? seriously people, if it bugs you that people are doing this you're forgetting the most important rule: have fun.

It's a fair point the bit about being able to afford new marines and something I hadn't considered, after all we all bemoan the extortionate prices we have to pay for GW stuff. Maybe I'll give them some leeway then

I wouldnt allow it. Should match with the appropriate codex if he wants to play.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:I wouldnt allow it. Should match with the appropriate codex if he wants to play.

What about people that make up their own chapter colors that bear no resemblance to any codex? What if they have models from all the different lines but painted under 1 paint scheme?

My SM chapter (Bald Eagles, if anybody cares) have a red, white, and blue armor scheme, is lead by Steviun Rogerious, and has an unhealthy mix of every terrible unit because I like the fluff or model. I have some SM, BA, and BT models as well as LOTD, converted SW, and an old school land raider. What codex can I use?

-cgmckenzie

I think it's hard to articulate a reason to not allow cross codex armies that would not also disallow many other armies.

Meaning, aside from matters of taste, why shouldn't people cross books? What's the harm, and what's the problem? If it's confusion, how is it substantially more confusing than grey plastic? And aren't painted armies good for the hobby in a way that grey plastic from the "correct" codex aren't?

It does "seem" wrong, but that's not enough to forbid something.

Really? Who cares...

Power armor? Check.
WYSIWYG weapons? Check.

As long as it's WYSIWYG, and he isn't doing the usual "These bikes are Thunderwolf Cav, and the squad with the heavy bolter, plasma cannon, and double lascannons is actually a LF squad with missile launchers...", then who cares?

Polonius wrote:It does "seem" wrong, but that's not enough to forbid something.

Well said polonius!

I would be happy to have a painted opponent in most stores. I'd play the guy. I might chide gently about it, but thats all.

I lay more of the blame on GWs jacked publication cycles and codex creep than on a guy stuck there. Especially if he had the army from before 5th edition, and it looked nice.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:...doing the usual "These bikes are Thunderwolf Cav,...

LOL there was a guy in texas who played my buddy at WARGAMESCON, he was using regular (unpainted) space marines on dark eldar skyboards as thunderwolf cav AND shooting long fangs under them claiming no cover save, bad. I saw the conversions on their little clear flight stands, terrible, that's a lot worse than a proxy painted wysiwyg army IMO.

Augustus wrote:LOL there was a guy in texas who played my buddy at WARGAMESCON, he was using regular (unpainted) space marines on dark eldar skyboards as thunderwolf cav AND shooting long fangs under them claiming no cover save, bad. I saw the conversions on their little clear flight stands, terrible, that's a lot worse than a proxy painted wysiwyg army IMO.

THIS is where the TO needs the balls to say no. The part in bold is very bad.

It's good to hear that no one really has an issue with counts-as stuff.

The following story won't really make sense as to why I'm posting it here, until I've finished it.

For my Space Marines, I've got pretty much everything I want for them, but I add new stuff sometimes because it looks cool or I think it'd be fun to use.

I also get birthday and Christmas presents FOR a friend who's online. Since I have a strong desire to keep my online friendships online-only, I build them myself, paint them myself, and keep them, but take photos for him. ^_^

He's a very good friend, easily worth a hundred bucks once or twice a year. So far I've gotten three Vindicators - together, when I was interested in a Linebreaker Squadron for Apocalypse - a Space Marine Commander on a bike, and most recently, a Space Marine Commander on foot. The one on foot was built from a combination of parts from three different kits - the Space Marine Commander kit, the Command Squad kit - I used the Company Champion's tabard - and the Space Wolves Pack kit. I run a Codex: Space Marines army these days, but after using that one head from the Space Wolves Pack kit - the one that's a wolf helm, as my friend RPs as a vulpine humanoid - I had ten miniatures left over from the kit that I was going to build and use as Sergeants, with WYSIWYG wargear. Then I got the bright idea to put all the power weapons I had left over on them, and use those ones as Honor Guard, with the others being sergeants with the remaining lightning claws and thunder hammer.

Since the minis would be built from the SW Pack kit and have SW aesthetics, whereas the rest of my army is entirely vanilla SM minis, I was a bit worried that people might not care for it.

I rationalized that it'd be a cool way to make the honor guard stand out in an army whose background could reasonably support it. They're not loyalist Space Marines, they're former Chaos Space Marines and former Loyalist Space Marines who have been converted away from the Dark Gods or Imperium, and into a more friendly way of looking at things. The xenos psyker - played by my Internet friend I mentioned earlier - who's converted them to his side to help free his world from Chaos invasion, has remarkable and untainted technology capable of transforming living beings to look any way they desire.

Alternatively, I considered having them be Space Wolves who were turned in the same way those Chaos Marines were, but kept much of their aesthetics. Wasn't too sure on that even though it would require the fewest leaps of faith, given the odds that random Chaos and loyal Space Marines given the chance for new aesthetics, chose Space Wolf stuff? Little coincidental. I wasn't sure if Space Wolves really went rogue, though, even through the use of mind-bending psykers and technology.

Yeah, I really don't care for the whole grimdark thing, to be honest. Love the game, love the aesthetics, hate the fact that everyone's all, "KILL KILL KILL NO LOVE NO PEACE JUST KILL KILL KILL," so my friend and I came up with an ongoing series of roleplays where we put some friendliness into the 40k universe. ^^ It happened naturally, really. I introduced some Battle Sisters into our roleplays, and it really snowballed until we'd consumed an entire planet.

All that's neither here nor there, just a little bit of further explanation and I tend to ramble and babble on.

Good to know that as long as it stays WYSIWYG, most people don't care. ^_^

They're not the same models though are they? Don't space wolves have more wolfish stuff to them and fur and all?

imark789 wrote:They're not the same models though are they? Don't space wolves have more wolfish stuff to them and fur and all?

Yes, Space Wolves minis are not the same as vanilla Space Marine minis. Fundamentally they are the same, though, with power armor and bolt weapons and Imperial chainswords and stuffles. And the parts are mostly compatible, although I did discover that one of the Space Wolves Pack front torso has filled in the normal hollow where the rounded neck joint would go. I started to clip that part off, then realized I was being an idiot, and clipped off part of the neck join instead. ^_^

It doesn't matter that they are not the same mini's. WYSIWYG applies to wargear, armor, weapons, etc. Decorative items like capes, wings, and wolf hoods have no bearing on gameplay and don't count for WYSIWYG. If the SW count as has a bolter on the model and on the army list, he is good to be run as a SW.

-cgmckenzie


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It doesn't matter that they are not the same mini's. WYSIWYG applies to wargear, armor, weapons, etc. Decorative items like capes, wings, and wolf hoods have no bearing on gameplay and don't count for WYSIWYG. If the SW count as has a bolter on the model and on the army list, he is good to be run as a SW.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It doesn't matter that they are not the same mini's. WYSIWYG applies to wargear, armor, weapons, etc. Decorative items like capes, wings, and wolf hoods have no bearing on gameplay and don't count for WYSIWYG. If the SW count as has a bolter on the model and on the army list, he is good to be run as a SW.

-cgmckenzie


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It doesn't matter that they are not the same mini's. WYSIWYG applies to wargear, armor, weapons, etc. Decorative items like capes, wings, and wolf hoods have no bearing on gameplay and don't count for WYSIWYG. If the SW count as has a bolter on the model and on the army list, he is good to be run as a SW.

-cgmckenzie

Actually, I run my Space Marines as vanilla, not SW. But the concept of using SW minis as vanilla, so long as it's clear who has what, is the same as the other way around.

I know of a rather awesome (and expensive) Blood Angel successor army that makes extensive use of the Forge World Black Templar bits. Looks amazing. Anybody who'd tell the guy he needs to use the BT codex because he liked the way BT bits looked would be somebody I'd personally not care to play with.

imark789 wrote:They're not the same models though are they? Don't space wolves have more wolfish stuff to them and fur and all?

To paraphrase a famous playwright (sorry, Will), a marine by any other name would have a 3+ save just as sweet.