I was looking at adding some Ratlings into my IG army with some Cadian sniper models. After looking at sniper rifles and what they do, I find them supremely lacking against mechanized infantry.

So what I would propose to bring sniper rifles a bit more oomph is to have sniper rifles get a bit more creative with what they can hit.

Looking at what snipers often do, which is pick out vulnerable targets and opportunity shots, here is what I think could help add a little more to the sniper's arsenal.

Once per enemy turn, a unit with sniper rifles can automatically shoot an enemy unit that is disembarking from a transport if within LOS and range. Any snipers gets a free shot (as if they were shooting during their own shooting phase), representing a sniper attempting to take opportunity shots when presented with one. Enemy units disembarking that are fired upon get a 4+ cover save.

To be fair, only one unit containing snipers can use this action per enemy unit. So if you have two units with snipers, and one enemy disembarks, only one of your sniper units could fire.

What else do you think could be done to give the sniper rifle flexibility in today's mech heavy environment?

Hmm that's pretty creative, I kinda like that.

Increase rending based on BS or something. Something minimal, but when you've got rifles that range from needles to shells the size of my phone tanks start to look mighty vulnerable. Exhausts on Land Raiders, vulnerable tracks etc... The advantage of a 50cal sniper rifle is that you don't need a LAW to stop a vehicle... Assuming technology has progressed enough to have abundantly powerful rifles, immobilizing options for example would be a welcome addition to the mech heavy environ we game in today.

Rico..

Rico wrote:Increase rending based on BS or something. Something minimal, but when you've got rifles that range from needles to shells the size of my phone tanks start to look mighty vulnerable. Exhausts on Land Raiders, vulnerable tracks etc... The advantage of a 50cal sniper rifle is that you don't need a LAW to stop a vehicle... Assuming technology has progressed enough to have abundantly powerful rifles, immobilizing options for example would be a welcome addition to the mech heavy environ we game in today.

Rico..

The problem with realism in the 40k millennium is that there are varying standards of effectiveness of all war gear in general. For instance, the Imperium still uses tanks that look little different from their second millennium ancestors. And yet they can fight flying anti-gravity tanks used by aliens millions of years in advance of what the human race has produced so far. Go figure.

As for the BS thing, I think that would be an interesting idea. Reward snipers with higher BS than 3 (the human average I guess?) with a 1 point range difference on their first rending roll.

So BS 3 snipers still need a 6. BS 4 is 5+, BS 5 is 4+. At BS 6, the roll is still 4+, but the range carries over to the reroll if it misses.

WarOne wrote:

Rico wrote:Increase rending based on BS or something. Something minimal, but when you've got rifles that range from needles to shells the size of my phone tanks start to look mighty vulnerable. Exhausts on Land Raiders, vulnerable tracks etc... The advantage of a 50cal sniper rifle is that you don't need a LAW to stop a vehicle... Assuming technology has progressed enough to have abundantly powerful rifles, immobilizing options for example would be a welcome addition to the mech heavy environ we game in today.

Rico..

The problem with realism in the 40k millennium is that there are varying standards of effectiveness of all war gear in general. For instance, the Imperium still uses tanks that look little different from their second millennium ancestors. And yet they can fight flying anti-gravity tanks used by aliens millions of years in advance of what the human race has produced so far. Go figure.

As for the BS thing, I think that would be an interesting idea. Reward snipers with higher BS than 3 (the human average I guess?) with a 1 point range difference on their first rending roll.

So BS 3 snipers still need a 6. BS 4 is 5+, BS 5 is 4+. At BS 6, the roll is still 4+, but the range carries over to the reroll if it misses.

If this were to happen my scout snipers would finally come out of the box Telion aswell

I generally like using Sniper's but the biggest problem is they don't damage that much, everything with them is that it's mostly up to chance what happens and this rule you are proposing would certainly chance all this..

(sorry for mispelling or not making any sense i'm really tired while writting this xD)

Well they face imo two major problems in their current level

Mech Armies

MEQ/High ld or fearless Armies

Anti infantry pinning heavy weapons dont affect these armies too much which are very very common. I do like the BS rending thing though. Although wouldnt that would make the eversor even more powerful?

What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

htj wrote:What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

Hmmm I think that should be reserved for the best sniper (see eversor)

Otherwise this would cause a HUGE change in foot armies if suddenly nobz, KFF Meks, commissars, heavy weapons, etc can get picked off by mass of snipers

htj wrote:What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

I second this. This makes sniper weapons more viable while still preserving dedicated snipers, Vindicare Assassins, because they are still only AP6 weapons.

Allow shooter-allocation on to-hit rolls of 6 and I'd say it would be more balanced. Super snipers like Telion get to allocate, but that's because they're bades.

I don't think the above idea is bad, but I'd make pinning more effective, say, a penalty to the Ld test equal to the number of wounds taken before saves. Fearless units could ignore the effects of pinning by electing to take additional wounds the same way they do for sweeping advances.

Yeah, maybe only allocation on a roll of a 6, otherwise sniper-spam would probably end up being OP. Well, if everyone wasn't in a vehicle anyway, that is.

The vindicare assasin is the only assasin with sniper weapons, not the eversor. The eversor is the berserker that explodes when you kill him.
The current sniper rules are too weak for my tastes, especially scout snipers. The pathfinders are not much better. The only wounding on a 4+ ruins them for me.

I like the rules ideas people proposed.

Sniper weapon

Rends on 6 for BS3, 5 for BS4, 4 for BS5.

Make the pinning work like multiple barrages i.e. -1 for each wound. So 4 wounds from sniper rifles mean the squad tests for pinning at -1Ld

If shooting at a fearless squad you may re-roll wounds to represent the squad having no regard for their own safety. This would make them much more effective against monstrous creatures and various fearless units like daemons, orks, nids, etc.

I agree that Ratlings are a great unit on paper but they're hampered by the sniper ruleset.

Maybe make sniper pinning tests at -1 or -2 if the snipers are in cover (since you cannot see where the shots come from?)

For every point of BS above 3, increase the range of Sniper Rifles by 6"

When a Sniper Rifle rolls a 6 to HIT, you may allocate that wound(if it wounds) to the target of your choice. If the shooter is BS 5 or more, this is on a roll of 5+ instead.

orz192 wrote:The vindicare assasin is the only assasin with sniper weapons, not the eversor. The eversor is the berserker that explodes when you kill him.

Wow that slipped my mind

I need to get more sleep


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Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For every point of BS above 3, increase the range of Sniper Rifles by 6"

When a Sniper Rifle rolls a 6 to HIT, you may allocate that wound(if it wounds) to the target of your choice. If the shooter is BS 5 or more, this is on a roll of 5+ instead.

Hmm fair enough. Although how many +BS5 snipers are there that dont already do this?

None, to my Space Marine playing knowledge.

If you want to fix them, I think Sniper Rifles=

S3 AP4, Poisoned 4+, adds 1 to BS when rolling to hit. Cover saves may not be taken against wounds inflicted by Sniper Rifles. Pinning.

Make it Re-rolling successful Cover Saves, not negating them entirely. And you forgot Rending.

Also, Sniper Rifles should always get Penetrating hits on Open Topped Vehicles on a 4+, and glance on a 3.

Ah, it was about time we got this thread again.

I suggest you ask GW to put sniper rifles on actual dedicated sniper units. Certainly sniper ratlings are better, point per point, than sniper scouts.

I like the idea of a bonus to firing from cover (WHICH MAKES SENSE FOR SNIPERS) I mean cmon, I've seen people use snipers like they were Redcoats in the british army, just standing in the open shoulder-to-shoulder.

Good point on there being no BS5 basic snipers. So here's a way to modify it more-

-Wounds automatically when you roll a 6 to hit (open topped vehicles automatically suffer Crew Shaken). Roll to wound anyway to see if rending.
-Rending; if you fail to rend but succeed to wound, half your wounding sniper models (rounded down) may re-roll to see if they rend.
-Enemy squad takes pinning test if casualties; -1 Ld for each casualty beyond the first, -2 Ld if snipers were in cover.
-If squad is fearless, they take additional wounds based on their leadership penalty (saves may be rolled as normal) to representing their bravery/stupidity making them an easier target.

Shitstorm inbound, you brought up the Snipers vs. Fearless debate.

personally, from an IG sense, get rid of ratlings all together, give their stats to a dedicated real human, give them allocation a 6 and make a special character, with bs 5 and allocation on any hit

Fairfeldia wrote:personally, from an IG sense, get rid of ratlings all together, give their stats to a dedicated real human, give them allocation a 6 and make a special character, with bs 5 and allocation on any hit

The great "feed them to the nids" argument.

They'd basically be Scouts, but slightly better.

and more points

Jerjare wrote:I like the rules ideas people proposed.

Sniper weapon

Rends on 6 for BS3, 5 for BS4, 4 for BS5.

bnut this wound mean that Vindicare assassins with BS8,or any sniper with BS7+ isnt benefitin much especially the assassin wouldn't benefit much,except that he has auto rending vs vehicles,which combined with Turbo penetrators,would grant an armour pen. strength of between 11(3+{4x1}+[4x1])=(3+4+4=11) and 39(3+[4x6]+[4x3])=(3+24+12=39)

the rules are ther for a reason!if you stray from the Path you will plunge into rage and darkness.Look at eldar exarches!




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Gavin Thorne wrote:Allow shooter-allocation on to-hit rolls of 6 and I'd say it would be more balanced.

no it wouldn't.the allocation just doesn't just show ramdomers dieing.its also eg a heavy weapons man dieing and someone else picking it up!


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guys let me clear this up for you

snipers wound on a 4+ because there S3,hence S3 vs vehicles,and nothing is below T3.however,GW wanted to make it fair,so they gave you a 50:50 chance of wounding hightoughness modals.

once the shot leaves the barrel the shooter has no control over it so saying rendig on 6 for BS3 and 5 for BS4 etc is stupid.

each weapon has a limited range(in fluff terms like 300meters),so 6" extra range is stupid.

higher bs is rewarded by rerolls for BS6+ and hitting easier

sniping doesnt require any real skill.like other guns its point and shoot.its beeter becuase their more accurate and have telescopic sights.this means that allocation is stupid because thy are not gunning anyone in particular.

the vindicare,btw has ap1,is trained for decades to target individuals

telion is a flukey son of a that should be butchered and ing fed tho the tyranids!!!

Deadshot wrote:
once the shot leaves the barrel the shooter has no control over it so saying rendig on 6 for BS3 and 5 for BS4 etc is stupid.

I think that proposed rule is to show that better snipers are better at taking certain shots like armor weakpoints, ammo storages, etc

No idea why you made that comment, it seems pretty obvious

the reason that sniper weapons dont hit on a 2+ like in the 4thed is because it doesnt matter how accurate the rifle is,if the shooter cant aim then its useless.also sniper weapons get rending because thy can pick out vehicle fire slits and stuff,not because there tearing trough armour./in the same way they have rending against infantry to symbolize exposed areas

I think that snipers with BS 4+ should wound on a 3+ and then BS 5 be a 5+ rending, BS 6 and higher be 4+

like i said before,All sniper weapons are strength 3 andthe4+ to wound is games workshpo giving scouts and ratlings the chance to woundwraithlords and c'tan.leave the rifles alone!!

Deadshot wrote:like i said before,All sniper weapons are strength 3 andthe4+ to wound is games workshpo giving scouts and ratlings the chance to woundwraithlords and c'tan.leave the rifles alone!!

Are you saying rifles are fine as they are now? Because right now they're barely taken. Most of the time its just for a backfield objective grabber

That's because Scouts w/sniper rifles suck, not because sniper rifles themselves entirely suck.

Because I know many Guard players who love their little bastard ratlings.

if you look at todays military thats what their for.back up and covering fire.would you rather have an assualt squad or HQ unit sitting on it?

How about this, sniper's up the firer's BS by 1 and get to pick who you shoot on the roll of a 6 to hit. Vindicare would be excluded, as would special characters.

I think it is a simple fix that would work.

But then the Vindicare's Deadshot ability would be redundant!!As would the flukey crap known as telion

Deadshot wrote:But then the Vindicare's Deadshot ability would be redundant!!As would the flukey crap known as telion

Well technically Telion doesnt have a sniper rifle

Correct he has a stalker pattern bolter which is a lot better than a sniper rifle.

pretty much the same,but better vs low toghness modals and vehicles

Deadshot wrote:But then the Vindicare's Deadshot ability would be redundant!!As would the flukey crap known as telion

Did you read my post? Vindicare/ Telion would not be changed. I think my change would be fine. Telion/ the Vindicare would still be the best snipers out there, but they wouldn't be leaving everyone out so far in the dust.

yes i read it but still disagree as the assassin has been training sincethe age of 10 and telion is a flukey

Deadshot wrote:if you look at todays military thats what their for.back up and covering fire.would you rather have an assualt squad or HQ unit sitting on it?

Um. No.

The days of snipers sitting in foxholes ended with Vietnam. In the second Iraqi war Marine Scout Snipers like Jack Coughlin traded static emplacements for Humvees and covered more ground than Cavalry divisions as they shot and hauled ass to various vantage points all over the cities the Marines steamrolled. They moved with the main forces and did infinitely more, providing both actionable intelligence and surgical bullets. In fluctuating urban combat the snipers were lethal and Jack Coughlin did not hide his distaste of someone he named "Officer Bob" in his book who thought the snipers were there to babysit him and support from the rear.

In addition, if you're using snipers as covering fire you're misapplying your light machine guns. 'Nuff said.

dont use lmg,use assault cannon/minigun

Deadshot wrote:yes i read it but still disagree as the assassin has been training sincethe age of 10 and telion is a flukey

So because of extensive training, how would you change the Vindicare? Let's look at a worst case scenario here, where realism clashes with the game.

Generally the targets of opportunity start up top and work their way down. Officers and other authoritative figures. Crewmembers. Radios (yes, radios above the people that use them). Etc.

Let's apply that to the game. Snipers would start with the officers. The guy with the standard. The medic. The guy with a plasma gun. Then he'd move on to the grunts. Screw the grunts, he'd eliminate the sergeant. Usually the most tooled up guy within a squad who gives them a leadership bonus so they don't turn tail when guns are pointed their way. With one wound models like Telion, Harker or Bastonne that are 50-odd points, people get pissy. Next up would be the special weapons. Then they'd just switch squads, rinse and repeat. No need to kill the rest of the grunts, their morale is done.

One sniper would be one sergeant/etc per turn. But wait! you can have squads of snipers! You can just hear those sergeant's stripes being torn off the uniform.

Vindicares train a lot. We get it. But being able to pick and choose who goes is disturbingly overpowered. Telion is flukey? How so? He seems purely fluffy, with some uses if people choose to take him. For 50 points I'd rather include another terminator and give my scout sergeant a combi-weapon or perhaps expand my command squad.

sorry i did not point it out properly,what i mean is that it takes awy from the assassin's amazing snping ability by giving it to lucky ratlings.so it doesnt take away abilities but lessens the impact of his Deadshot/deadshot gives emphasis to his abilty and lucky rolls negate this

Deadshot wrote:dont use lmg,use assault cannon/minigun

Did you read my post? :(

I'll try to break my text up more.

We're in the context of today's military. Now, covering fire can be done with M16s. The point is to keep people's heads down so they aren't shooting at troops that may need to reposition themselves. Bolters. Lasguns. Shuriken Cannons. They are all capable of covering fire in 40k. I'm using LMGs in the previous example because they're quite capable of sustained covering fire, using 3 to 5 round bursts (now let's see, what's 100 divided by 4?), for a longer period of time (people do need to reload their rifles, after all).

Lastly, miniguns really aren't as common as you think... Unfortunately the handheld minigun doesn't come out until Skynet invades and creates a Terminator to carry it...

then lets get it built..lol

Deadshot wrote:sorry i did not point it out properly,what i mean is that it takes awy from the assassin's amazing snping ability by giving it to lucky ratlings.so it doesnt take away abilities but lessens the impact of his Deadshot/deadshot gives emphasis to his abilty and lucky rolls negate this

As opposed to his selection of ammo in addition to the ability to choose who he kills? This is improving sniper rifles, not nerfing the Vindicare.


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Deadshot wrote:then lets get it built..lol

Lol! You so funny, Docta Jones.

Moving back on topic... ^

i didnt mean it nerfed the assassin.he is fine if your only looking at him,but nex to 10 scouts with snpes that have the potential to kill 10 guys of your choice,or cause an IC to take 10 saves,as opposed to th assassin who can what,take 2 wounds in one shot,

Deadshot wrote:i didnt mean it nerfed the assassin.he is fine if your only looking at him,but nex to 10 scouts with snpes that have the potential to kill 10 guys of your choice,or cause an IC to take 10 saves,as opposed to th assassin who can what,take 2 wounds in one shot,

Excellent, we've established ten men with sniper rifles is more lethal than a man with one.

(1/6)^10. Do the math. Small number.

but normally they wouldnt because the scouts ten shots would be allocated to big units of boys or the squad so the character whos better is unharmed.tha assassin is created with the purpose of ignoring this and to do this would make him less of an asset

Deadshot wrote:but normally they wouldnt because the scouts ten shots would be allocated to big units of boys or the squad so the character whos better is unharmed.tha assassin is created with the purpose of ignoring this and to do this would make him less of an asset

What are you arguing at this point? That sniper rifles can't be fixed because just about everything that would fix them would make the Vindicare LESS of an asset?

Fantastic!

Oh, I see this getting locked...

SNIPERS WOULD ONLY PICK THEIR TARGETS ON THE ROLE OF A 6! 10 men are not going to roll 10 6s. The vindicare would still be MUCH better, but snipers in general would get a nice buff.

Happygrunt wrote:Oh, I see this getting locked...

SNIPERS WOULD ONLY PICK THEIR TARGETS ON THE ROLE OF A 6! 10 men are not going to roll 10 6s. The vindicare would still be MUCH better, but snipers in general would get a nice buff.

Don't bother. It's a lost cause.

tahts not true.you can get 10 6s,even 100 6s.they dont converse saying "no one get 6s because hes an unlucky tosser who only gets 1 6 a year"

Deadshot wrote:tahts not true.you can get 10 6s,even 100 6s.they dont converse saying "no one get 6s because hes an unlucky tosser who only gets 1 6 a year"

Yes, it is. Do the math.

Ten scouts with sniper rifles using this proposed rule roll to hit. Everyone has a 1/6 chance to hit. Now, for an entire 10 man squad to be able to choose who they hit that'd mean 10 sixes would have to be rolled. 1/6 to the tenth power because each roll is independent. That's a 1 in over 60 million chance.

If you're disputing people rolling sixes, which I believe you are, then there's seriously no point continuing this because I'll end up getting a PM from Insaniak after I verbally demolish you in the most profane way I know.

Yes. You love Vindicares, as your name shows. Great! We're not trying to nerf them. They're still a better option than a squad of these guys (especially 10 scouts at BS 3; who would bother doing that?). Why? Because of their ammunition.

Oh, I guess I didn't take into account the sergeant has a BS of 4 in my above math. It's still supremely long odds.

So what you're saying is that with a lucky roll, the Vindicare's impact in battle is suddenly lessened.

Alright, let's roll with that for a minute. A lucky roll on the daemon weapon table for a Chaos lord will give him more attacks than Kharn/Abaddon/Daemon Princes etc. Obviously the chaos lord w/ Daemon weapon is a no-brainer and everyone should- oh wait, no one is taking it, because it's crap.

A lucky roll on the ramshackle table for Orks could potentially mean their Trukk will move an extra 6 or more inches before it crashes/explodes/wrecks! Obviously this means it's a far superior choice to the Battlewagon, which doesn't even HAVE a ramshackle table to roll on. Poor battlewagon, who would possibly choose it- oh wait, nevermind.

What you're doing is you're comparing these two abilities in a vacuum. You're not taking into account the BS of the Vindicare, it's special ammunition, the fact that its weapon is AP1, its special rules, its moderate cost, its statline, and any other wargear it has. The fact that you're trying to argue that a lucky roll will immediately nerf the capabilities of the Vindicare is just wrong.

I recommend you stop trying to improve sniper rifles and instead try to give sniper rifles to a unit which isn't Scout Marines

No, Marines are nowhere near a vindicare. Don't even try that comparison. The main advantage Marines have over Assassinorum Operatives is that Marines take less time and effort to train and equip.

Deadshot wrote:

sniping doesnt require any real skill.like other guns its point and shoot.its beeter becuase their more accurate and have telescopic sights.this means that allocation is stupid because thy are not gunning anyone in particular.

Ignorance Is Bliss

You obivously have never even Touched nontheless fired a rifle, give a random person a high powered rifle and draft him into Iraq, Saying
"It is easy, just shoot the head" Would result in a large amount of problems. Snipers have to factor in wind, bullet drop, even humidity because guns are more complicated then you think. Why else do snipers train for (I think) like 3 years. Snipers are elites, picking off machine gunners and enemy leaders. I believe you get your info from games like black ops, Nigh all guns are accurate. The reason terrorists don't fire accuratly is because they have no training whatsoever not because of Ak-47( Look at Spetznaz they are like marksmens with there Ak-74s) Guns arn't really 'Inaccurate' it is just how you fire the weapon.


I like most of the Ideas for snipers on this thread, we have a house rul wounds can be allocated wherever they want, but say a nob is at the back of a mob, he gets a 4+ cover

TheWildHost wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

sniping doesnt require any real skill.like other guns its point and shoot.its beeter becuase their more accurate and have telescopic sights.this means that allocation is stupid because thy are not gunning anyone in particular.

Ignorance Is Bliss

You obivously have never even Touched nontheless fired a rifle, give a random person a high powered rifle and draft him into Iraq, Saying
"It is easy, just shoot the head" Would result in a large amount of problems. Snipers have to factor in wind, bullet drop, even humidity because guns are more complicated then you think. Why else do snipers train for (I think) like 3 years. Snipers are elites, picking off machine gunners and enemy leaders. I believe you get your info from games like black ops, Nigh all guns are accurate. The reason terrorists don't fire accuratly is because they have no training whatsoever not because of Ak-47( Look at Spetznaz they are like marksmens with there Ak-74s) Guns arn't really 'Inaccurate' it is just how you fire the weapon.


I like most of the Ideas for snipers on this thread, we have a house rul wounds can be allocated wherever they want, but say a nob is at the back of a mob, he gets a 4+ cover

I consider myself a good shot, and have never been formally trained, but I agree. Sniper rifles are not easy guns to use. Guns are not easy to use. The mechanics of a gun, easy. How ever, I would want a military sniper over some deer hunter in my army every day of the week.

reading that last page was actually painful, i did a test game last night i threw away the FOC,took 3 guard special weapons teams and a PCS with 1 sniper (to give 10 in total 3 in each SWT), i then put this against 40 orks led by 4 nobz and pust put them into a discordant, hard to move, mess, over the course of the battle killed 14 orks and 1 nob with the snipers, however i only rolled 3 sixes for wound allocation choosing the same nob 3 times in order to kill him, eventually my SWT ended up in close combat and where minced, with the exception on my power weapon captain who killed 6 orks and a nob, but firstly that wasnt sniping secondly he died a painful death. i know one game doesnt mean much but id say i did a reasonable job, that in 7 i managed to roll 3 sixes with 10 snipers and they killed 1 model using this allocation. so shove that up your vindicare

Fixing to say it but Wildhost said it for me. Yes you can do some amazing things, and there are plenty of sniper tales from every theater of war, but it takes years of training and skill to be a master of the weapon.

My suggestion is this, instead of the rending rule, award an auto glance on vechiles when you roll the 6. And allow armor saves, but have that 6 inflict the Instant death rule. For the sheer fact even a Space Marine will die from a bullet to the brain. Heck even most Nids die from headshots. About the only thing that I think could survive a headshot is daemons.

Also snipers only cause pinning if their unit is in cover, and the pinning from sniper weapons overrules fearless/etc. As often times no matter how fearless you are, you stop and wonder why you are covered in brain bits, and your buddie's head is missing from his shoulders. Also fearless units would stop just to try and find the sniper to go and get him. You know the whole 'look for the muzzle flash' deal.

though i doubt something like tyranids in synapse and orks consisting of 15+ modals would care about that.to represent this their giving them fearless.they probably do have fear but carnifexes dont care about mortars and snipers,their too big,not that fexes could be pinned,its just an example

kenshin620 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:
once the shot leaves the barrel the shooter has no control over it so saying rendig on 6 for BS3 and 5 for BS4 etc is stupid.

I think that proposed rule is to show that better snipers are better at taking certain shots like armor weakpoints, ammo storages, etc

No idea why you made that comment, it seems pretty obvious

Well you know, those bullets have a mind of their own. As soon as they reach .13 milli seconds their hormones kick in and they just go all over the place. Why you can't even keep up with the new fads they invent these days!

(I know this was a page 1 quote, but my joke is still relevant! Right?)

Some good ideas here. As well as a rebalance of sniper weapons in general, personally I would like to see units targetting the snipers having to take a sight range night-fighting type test in order to shoot at them if the snipers are in any sort of coversave-granting cover, representing their ability to conceal themselves.
I think the old Catachans supplement had something similar.

Deadshot wrote:though i doubt something like tyranids in synapse and orks consisting of 15+ modals would care about that.to represent this their giving them fearless.they probably do have fear but carnifexes dont care about mortars and snipers,their too big,not that fexes could be pinned,its just an example

It doesn't matter how big you are or if your skull is thick enough to block a shot. If someone shoots a very large bullet at very high speeds at your head, you're going to notice. It's not so much about fearless as it is about reacting to damage and incoming fire.

And lastly..

They're all snipers, but their only strength is sitting on cover over there and shooting things.
They're=/=Their=/=There.

Daedricbob wrote:Some good ideas here. As well as a rebalance of sniper weapons in general, personally I would like to see units targetting the snipers having to take a sight range night-fighting type test in order to shoot at them if the snipers are in any sort of coversave-granting cover, representing their ability to conceal themselves.
I think the old Catachans supplement had something similar.

Don't Have my good old 'Dar codex , but I am pretty sure rangers/pathfinders have something like that. Even if they arn't in cover. Maybe im thinking of something else or a difffrent rule though

Just for clarification on everything (easy to lose track after page 2)..

On a to hit roll of 6 models with sniper rifles may choose who they shoot at. In addition, units wishing to shoot at a model with a sniper rifle in cover must use the night fight rules to see if they can find the well-concealed marksman.

That sound about right? I might actually take this to my group.

The only problem I have with it( As an eldar player) on a hit roll of six(Sometimes five) im AP1 so effects stacking could get a little OP

Maybe you roll a seperate dice before rolling to wound (Or maybe before to hit)and On a 6 you choose

Wild Host, it was on a roll of 6 to hit you pick your target.

I am still all for making snipers give +1 BS to the wielder, but that is just personal taste.

that on its own isnt too bad,ill let that go,all it means is vindicares are now BS9!

and yes i love assassins,because today my vindicare took away the 3++ save of a enemy chapter master with a special upgrage for the campaign we wer playing,the black sword.1 modal can take it for free,and if using it you get your base S and A doubled,its a power weapon and ignores any rule that negates instant death,and gives you +2 woundsie eternal warrior.so shield breaker,lose 3++,orbital strike relay,.was really fuuny because he had joined a unit of possessed,so when draigo assaulted,he was strength 10,meaning he inflicted instant death without activateing his sword,so i could use FLAME as well as the previous commune.

Happygrunt wrote:Wild Host, it was on a roll of 6 to hit you pick your target.

I am still all for making snipers give +1 BS to the wielder, but that is just personal taste.

Eldar rangers already have a special skill for Ranger Long Rifle that is triggered on 6 on to hit (5+ for pathfinders) that makes the shot AP1. This is in addition to normal sniper rending.
Wild Host was referring to this skill. Those two would stack and may become bit too powerful without testing / thinking this through.

htj wrote:What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

Yea!

or

Instant Death.

Check out the 6th ed rumors, a lot of them are centered around sniper rifles. The main rumor is every other wound that snipers inflict are allocated by the sniper's player just like a vindicare.

back to my earlier posts,it just makes him redundant

Deadshot wrote:back to my earlier posts,it just makes him redundant

Dear. God.

Back to my earlier posts, no it fething doesn't.

I'm unsubbing this thread at this point.

10 ratlings kill 5 guys a turn,don't know the statistics its just an example.

turn 1-5 ramdomers drop.
turn 2-5 saves on warboss

Vindicare

turn 1-1 guy either dies,takes 2 wounds or loses wargear that gives an invulnerable
Turn 2-same thing

ratlings beat assassin in this case.

So, you have played the game before right? Vindicares have special ammo. They can be GAME CHANGEING. Oh, now your thunderwolf cav is missing a storm shield, Oh, that same guy is now dead turn 2 (Bad example, I know, work with me here). VINDICARES WOULD NOT BE BROKEN! If you only look at killing power, then you seem to be either A. Very New or B. Very Bad. Would the vindicare be not as OMGSUPERGOODIWANTTOTAKEITALLTHETIMEBANNANSAUCE? Yes. Would he be as useless as you are suggesting? FETH NO! You can still do things that normal snipers can't do for I am willing to bet less points.

what im saying is that assassins,on a chart of skill should be

here.

and others should be...

























here

The rule of cool only goes so far. But now you are arguing fluff for game mechanics, which never ever works. The outline for snipers we have made still keeps them balanced in game terms but makes them more useful.

not fluff for rules.


the sniper rules are fair,they have a 50:50 to wound,which is much more than other S3 weapons get.I think in times like these you should thank the emperor you got any snipers at all(poor necrons,nids,orks)

I, at this point, don't even know what you are talking about.

the thing that makes the vindicare better all the other snipers is thathe chooses his target.if all snipers couldf do that even 1/6 of the time,then he becomes costly at 145pts,whereas 10 scouts with sniper rifles cost 140 and the sg could even get amelta bomb for the same points as 1 little modal.

Dear lord Deadshot, please use proper punctuation and capitalization.

Sorry,here in UK it's 3.30a.m. so commas and caps lock is not my most pressing concern.

Deadshot wrote:what im saying is that assassins,on a chart of skill should be

here.

and others should be...

























here

I don't understand your ungodly biasly love for the vindacare

Rangers usaly train themselves and are awsome snipers. Quit thinking vindacares are the ONLY GOOD SNIPERS! I mean c'mon dude my snipers, and my friends snipers are not good enough, bragging and being a whiny little bitch isn't helping us get any construtive ideas in the thread.
Rico, please come back, you had some decent ideas and we need all the brainpower we can get

Personal attacks are against DakkaDakka rules. Please dial back the hostility and participate in the discussion with more civility.

Thanks.

i love the vindicare because he killed bbadon in 2 shots,and continued to,pick out the sorceror in a unit of thousand sons,killed him,and they spent the game rolling 1s across a wrecked fortress of redemption,4ft away from anything.(they mishaped when deep striking and i stuck them ther) and the chaos lord with bloodfeeder,reducing him to 1 wound and making it so draigo only had to attack him once and could focus on the obliterators hammering multimelta shopts into my land raider redeemer.
vindicares are not the only good snipers.rangers are good and so are pathfinders and sniperdrones with railrifles,even though they arnt sniper but are similar,are capable.But the vindicare is the best of the best of the best.he should be exclusive in all matters of weapons,shots and allocation.

Deadshot wrote:i love the vindicare because he killed bbadon in 2 shots,and continued to,pick out the sorceror in a unit of thousand sons,killed him,and they spent the game rolling 1s across a wrecked fortress of redemption,4ft away from anything.(they mishaped when deep striking and i stuck them ther) and the chaos lord with bloodfeeder,reducing him to 1 wound and making it so draigo only had to attack him once and could focus on the obliterators hammering multimelta shopts into my land raider redeemer.
vindicares are not the only good snipers.rangers are good and so are pathfinders and sniperdrones with railrifles,even though they arnt sniper but are similar,are capable.But the vindicare is the best of the best of the best.he should be exclusive in all matters of weapons,shots and allocation.

Alright, let me say a few things.

1. This story. What is the point?
2. This story. Didn't follow.
3. Every time you've posted you've refused to punctuate and capitalize. 0330 can't be the only time you're active on Dakka.
4. You don't know what you're arguing against. You look at what we post and refuse to accept facts. So let me spell this out for you in the simplest manner possible since the Vindicare is apparently the coolest thing since automatic weapons.

The Vindicare. Is not. The only. Good. Sniper unit.

Let me repeat that.

The Vindicare. Is not. The only. Good. Sniper unit.

Breath it in. Let it permeate your thoughts. One more time, all together now.

The Vindicare. Is not. The only. Good. Sniper unit.

Coming full circle. Everyone knows you love Vindicare assassins. But you can't keep putting up stories from where he's worked for you. This is a thread about making sniper rifles better. I'm seriously considering creating a thread to nerf Vindicares just to troll you, but I won't.

The Vindicare will still be the single best sniper option out there. Why? He ALWAYS gets to pick where his shots go. He ALWAYS gets to choose ammo. The Vindicare will ALWAYS be the better option (than, say, a squad of scouts at BS 3) against armor because he has ammo specifically for that.

Here I am trying to use reason, but I fear this is a bit long for your attention span. No, mods, that is not a personal attack, that is a statement of fact that he doesn't seem to fully read through replies to his arguments. We both know it's true.

I'll leave you with an unfriendly reminder. The chances of a full squad of 10 scouts getting to choose their target is a 1 in 60 million chance. This isn't people being unlucky or lucky. Those are the odds. And at BS3, the scouts in general will get to fire twice a game (6 turn game).

Those are the facts. This is my argument. Please, please, fething PLEASE post a rational response.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:10 ratlings kill 5 guys a turn,don't know the statistics its just an example.

turn 1-5 ramdomers drop.
turn 2-5 saves on warboss

Vindicare

turn 1-1 guy either dies,takes 2 wounds or loses wargear that gives an invulnerable
Turn 2-same thing

ratlings beat assassin in this case.

You're comparing 10 ratlings to one Vindicare.

Of course the Ratlings are going to kill more guys. Why? Well, the fact they have nine more rifles is a solid start.

a squad of 10 has the same chances to roll all sixes as they have to roll any other number on a dice.16.666% chance.and are as likely to roll a combination of 1,5,6,3,5,4,1,2,2,1 as ten 6s.i'll leave this discussion because i'm obviously not understood but ill not agree with this and i still think these rules are made by people who havent used one.

and i have specified that vindicares aren't the ONLY good snipers

Deadshot wrote: a squad of 10 has the same chances to roll all sixes as they have to roll any other number on a dice.16.666% chance.and are as likely to roll a combination of 1,5,6,3,5,4,1,2,2,1 as ten 6s.i'll leave this discussion because i'm obviously not understood but ill not agree with this and i still think these rules are made by people who havent used one.

and i have specified that vindicares aren't the ONLY good snipers

YOU'RE not understood? Trololol.

Toodles. Don't forget to unsubscribe!

Back on topic, I think being able to choose who gets hit on a to-hit roll of 6 would be a better choice than sniper rifles giving a +1 BS to the wielder (think I saw that back in the mire). As a sniper, regardless of skill, you still know where you want your shot to go; the roll of 6 just represents wind in your favor or the target doesn't stop and bend over to tie his shoe or something.

Any other options we might have missed?

dear god that was getting painful to read, how about, for an attempt at balance, when you roll a 6, you get a choice between ID or allocation?

or maybe do that on a further 1-3 4-5 dice roll ?