Okay friend just forwarded this to me and I thought it would be funny to share...hope I not breaking any DakkaDakka rules by posting it. This is a guy in my friend's local gaming group that he said is normally a great guy, but really been put off GW. So the guy sends this to GW, and fowards a copy to all the local gamers asking them that if they agree with his statements that they need to send a similar letter in there own words to GW. ----- Forwarded Message -----
From: *Deleted*
To: "custserv@games-workshop.com" <custserv@games-workshop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 5:51 PM Subject: Your fired.......
Dear Games Workshop,
Your fired! This has to be the absolute worse year of collecting and gaming that I have ever had with you. My decision to stop buying your products and attending your promotions is due to the following reasons;
1. Finecast Minis....or should I say "finecrap". These minis were supposely designed to replace the pewter ones to allow a better product, finer details, better quality, and all while under the guise of using a cheaper material. It has failed! The minis while very good on a weight level, have no other redeeming qualities. The detail levels are not superior to plastic or pewter, mostly they are inferior. The details are plagued with pits inside the model, and you have to try to re-trim almost the whole model, which as you probably know will break way too easily. If this is not bad enough then there is the flexing issue. Anytime the model is placed on its side, gets to hot from being inside a car, or even just picked up the appendages will warp, bend, or break. I had an entire unit melt together after leaving them in the car truck over a weekend. The you have increased the price on the model range to boot. Stop trying to a) pass off an inferior product off as "superior in detail", b) maximize profit to your stockholders by increases the price on models that are made from cheap materials, and c) come up with new ways to cheat your customers out of there money with lies and false claims.
2. GW stores not allowing non-GW models in the store. Well this one wasn't a surprise to me when I heard that GW was banning all non-GW models from its store and events. WAKE UP CALL.....YOU DON'T EVEN MAKE HALF OF THE MODELS IN THE CODEXES!!!! Lets take a look at the Tyranid Codex shall we...hmm....Tervigon...nope no model....hmm...Tyrannofex....nope again.....Harpy....nope....okay maybe its just the Tyranids. Lets go to Space Wolves....Thunderwolf Cav....OMG no model....wow. Lets go to IG....Any Basilisk models besides the basic one...nope. Oh but look....Forgeworld "a GW company"...make them...for a lot more then anyone can really afford to pay. Also, if your not in the UK....your going to have to pay the models cost in shipping! If another company makes a product that you are not providing you claim that "our intellilectual property is being stolen"....omg...you have an idea, sit on it, and when someone makes a model for your customers to use, you get mad...so get off your lazy butts, stop having employees paint up armies and play a game in the shop to feature in the White Dwarf...and make the model line until it is complete. Until you have the entire line of models, stop working on redesigning other lines! Its like your company has decided that its going to make a car...you build the frame, the interior, and all the nice little extras, but when you roll it out, it has no engine, no transmission, and it never will because you move on to designing another car.
3. White Dwarf....you want to save money and get profits back up...kill this worthless rag. You are using this magazine to premiere your new model lines, codexes, and anything else that falls out of your design team bottoms what looks like it might make money. Most of us gamers are going to come to the store, look at the magazine, flip thru it, then put it back on the shelf and wait until the models are released to get a better look at them. Yet you still take this thing to print. Here's an idea.....use your website!!!! Its cheap, easy, and you are going to just reprint what you are putting into the white dwarf into the website after a month or two. Cut out the middleman, make a section in your website for sneak peek articles and such. You respond by saying "well we going to put codexes back into the white dwarf magazine!". Well great...so you going to sell one copy of the thing, it gets copied or scanned into a PDF file, and posted on the internet. Is this illegal? Sure, but you really think that some people are going to stop doing this because of that. You have people that are making a living off making resin copies of your product and selling them on Ebay.
4. Bitz. Well lets see...you put a new codex out with great new gear in it and you know people are going to want it. Things like Long Fang Missile Launchers, Wych Weapons, Blaster, Wings, Razorback Turrets, heck even the heads of some of the models. People are going to want these items in large amounts. So what do you do? You put one of these items into a package...or you put them in a different model all together, cause if someone wants to get the bit...they have to buy a lot to get it. This will work right.....wrong. We trade, we buy them for cheaper on Ebay, or we just copy them. Now can this be avoided and make you a profit...sure it could. You could make special weapon kits, or vehicle kits for everything and they would sell, but that would require you actually put some inital money into the design or better yet, require a lil more thought on spuce design before you rush to make a model line.
5. Game Support. I have never seen a game that has gotten so out of control as far as playability that is requires a degree in English to be able to play. Your rules are getting more complex, and so poorly worded that they are continuous FAQs to answer the basic question on how something works. Every codex released so far for 5th edition including the rulebook is guilty of this. How about this...next codex you release...go to a game store and don't let anyone know you work for GW. Listen to the players playing...then when a rule question comes up, call your own customer support to get the answer, then call again, and again, and again. You will need a scorecard for this, as the answers you get aren't going to be the same everytime. Its bad when the people playing your game have to come up with there own FAQ to address items that you don't for about 4-6 months.
6. Lastly, I have to say that you have utterly failed at Ard Boyz this year. Do you realize that in the Fantasy line you favored some armies over other with the rules? Extra points for having a wizard alive at the end of the game.....dwarfs don't have wizards...oh well, guess you don't get the points. How about the lightning bolt thing wrecking armies that their only advantage in the game is war machines. Next is 40k....as of today, 18 days before the tournament...there are still no scenarios for the tournament. What happened to the "month in advance"? It didn't happen, until 5 days ago you didn't even have a list of where to play!
All these things have come together to force me to say no more. I'm sure you are going to read this and toss it in your trash bin, but I had to say this. It really bugs me that all the time I have spent teaching this game to younger players, and running local events that it would lead to this. As far as the future of GW goes, you need to start listening to your gamers, rather then your stockholders. They are the ones buying your items, and as your annual report shows....they are going down. If you want some advice, I am more then willing to provide it to you, but I really think it would fall on deaf ears.
Sincerely,
Your Average Customer
I agree with him on some points...and he had to be mad since there is a ton of misspellings...what you guys think??
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It would be better to calm down, spell/grammar check, and coherently and thoughtfully make the point he's trying to make.
I saw the misspelled 'You're' but kept reading. My favorite was putting point 6 about 'Ard Boyz and complaints about it, then signed it with 'Your Average Customer'.
Their average customer has no idea what 'Ard Boyz even is.
Kanluwen wrote:I like how he started off by spelling "You're" wrong and went on ranting from there.
QFT...
The rant is awesome and Epic in it's proportions but the spelling errors are numerous. Those are probably the biggest thing that is going to get this letter ignored. The wigs will simply remark "He can't spell, this is some kid playing a prank."
If he really wanted this letter to get attention the first thing he would do is spell check and grammar check the crap out of it. Then he would print it up and sign it with his own name with a Black pen. After that he would buy an envelop (5cents maybe) with his return address on it, drop a 42 cent stamp on it (USA sorry rest of the World but you can convert for your local area and get the idea) put it in his mailbox and then voom.
That would get noticed. This is just email trash from some kid who cannot spell to them.
However I must say that I agree with a lot of what he has to say in his rant.
Kanluwen wrote:I like how he started off by spelling "You're" wrong and went on ranting from there.
Troll much?
@OP:I'd like to respond to the letter point for point.
1)I don't have any experience working with finecast minis, since I stopped buying GW products before they came out so I can't really comment here.
2)I know that this policy exists, but in my experience with the one GW store that was open for a few years in St. Louis, they didn't really enforce it. I just wouldn't play in a store that enforced silly rules like that. As far as them not producing a full line of models for each codex, it sucks. But what can we really do? Again, we can play with our converted models in places that don't bar their use.
3)WD is terrible, and has been for years. I would much rather see it become more like its former self rather than going the way of the buffalo. WD was at one point, a really good read, with good articles and rules supplements.
4)The bitz included in most boxes are maddening. The fact that GW stopped selling bitz really put me off. I would love to see GW begin selling bits, or at least selling sprues with commonly used weapons to supplement the boxed sets.
5)I agree that the rules are not the best written, and the FAQs don't alway answer the most pressing questions, but I've made due with that for a long time. A nice compromise is getting your game group to accept something like the INATFAQ. Even though I don't agree with everything it says, it's nice to at least have a solid FAQ that answers most of the pressing questions that can arise during a game.
6)It would be nice to have more notice for scenarios for big tourneys like Ard' Boyz but what can you do? As long as some people don't have early access to them before others then it still should produce a fair tournament.
While some of the things that GW has done in the past have caused me to not purchase new products from them any more, I still love the game and the fluff, and will play with the models I have, and models and kits I pick up second hand.
The letter mentions some good points and all in all it was a good read. I’ll have to reiterate “the vote with your wallet” point that other posters have mentioned. I’d recommend anyone wanting to write an “angry GW letter” to list any non GW purchases as a result of their negligence (the more significant and frequent the purchases are the better).
I’d also have to say negative feedback like this won’t do any good….yet. In a few years time when GW have exhausted their ability to cut costs, raise prices and generate short term revenue (to make their financial reports look better), the point will start to drive home.
Reading that gave me a seizure. The quality of writing is terrible, and nobody will take that seriously. GW gets letters like this already, and frankly they don't really care.
theQuanz wrote:Guys, I think he is angry.
Wrong...no.
Angry...probably.
Wrong..yes. In that he's wasting his time if he wants anyone to read his rant. If you insult someone, don't expect them to care enough to read through your angry rant.
Angry, sure. But I'm confused, since it's not like this stuff all occurred at once, did he just have some nerd rage epiphany one morning and decide to go on a rampage?
Kanluwen wrote:I like how he started off by spelling "You're" wrong and went on ranting from there.
QFT...
The rant is awesome and Epic in it's proportions but the spelling errors are numerous. Those are probably the biggest thing that is going to get this letter ignored. The wigs will simply remark "He can't spell, this is some kid playing a prank."
If he really wanted this letter to get attention the first thing he would do is spell check and grammar check the crap out of it. Then he would print it up and sign it with his own name with a Black pen. After that he would buy an envelop (5cents maybe) with his return address on it, drop a 42 cent stamp on it (USA sorry rest of the World but you can convert for your local area and get the idea) put it in his mailbox and then voom.
That would get noticed. This is just email trash from some kid who cannot spell to them.
However I must say that I agree with a lot of what he has to say in his rant.
That seems like alot of effort and money for someone who clearly does not want a hobby....
Kanluwen wrote:I like how he started off by spelling "You're" wrong and went on ranting from there.
QFT...
The rant is awesome and Epic in it's proportions but the spelling errors are numerous. Those are probably the biggest thing that is going to get this letter ignored. The wigs will simply remark "He can't spell, this is some kid playing a prank."
If he really wanted this letter to get attention the first thing he would do is spell check and grammar check the crap out of it. Then he would print it up and sign it with his own name with a Black pen. After that he would buy an envelop (5cents maybe) with his return address on it, drop a 42 cent stamp on it (USA sorry rest of the World but you can convert for your local area and get the idea) put it in his mailbox and then voom.
That would get noticed. This is just email trash from some kid who cannot spell to them.
However I must say that I agree with a lot of what he has to say in his rant.
That seems like alot of effort and money for someone who clearly does not want a hobby....
That's true $1000.00 on plastic mini figs but 50 cents for a stamp and envelop is too much...lol.
Well then there's the money for the ink, calligraphy lessons, nice paper, walking/driving to the post office, a new pen to write with, wax seal, ring for your wax seal.....it all adds up!
"Uhh... I left my plastc things in a hot car and they melted because I'm irresponsible, WTF Games-Workshop?! Why aren't you plastic toys melt proof?!!?!?!?!?!??!"
Seriously guy, they will laugh at you're (sic) letter and not consider a word of it, because it sounds like a ten year old child wrote it.
You want a letter to have any impact, take your time and proof-read.
Bobino wrote:"Uhh... I left my plastc things in a hot car and they melted because I'm irresponsible, WTF Games-Workshop?! Why aren't you plastic toys melt proof?!!?!?!?!?!??!"
Seriously guy, they will laugh at you're (sic) letter and not consider a word of it, because it sounds like a ten year old child wrote it.
You want a letter to have any impact, take your time and proof-read.
I agree with this, at least try to sound like an adult.
And please, don't leave stuff you care about in a hot car.
I agree on the note of every Unit designed should have a model, this is a very important matter. I always thought they should do BITS bags for armies that you could buy to try and get the gear you need.
I had an entire unit melt together after leaving them in the car truck over a weekend
Never happened. All objective tests by multiple people on the net show finecast doesn't melt in this way. It actually becomes rock hard at extreme high temps.
To latch on to intellectual dishonestly in this letter shows a lack of integrity. Other 'angry letter' threads were actually somewhat respectful and didn't resort to exaggeration or lying to try to make a point.
Where is the picture of the guy with "oh this thread again" when you need him?
You know the spelling isnt really what should be at issue. the issue are the points that he is raising and the question of their validity. I would say that i agree with all of them but points 2,3 and 4 are really accurate. If GW is so hard up for cash all they have to do is market the things that people want.
It seems like they could use finecast to produce bitz packs much easier than cutting a mold for plastics or for metals.
The most cutting of the points that he made concerned the lack of tervigon, terorfex etc in the nids dex. I realise that the nids dex is a total flop. I am selling my nids due to the extreamly poor rules provided for them by CrudyAce. No doubt this has something to do with the lack of models for the line but still, they could have at least made one kit for both of these models and sold a Ton of them befor people realised how crappy the new dex was.
and on a side note. Maybe he is ten years old and thats why his letter reads the way that it does. You know nothing about anyone here except the look of their avatar.
There are some good points in that rant,however the shaky writing style will cause the message to lose a lot of the impact it could have.
First,the spelling errors really bring it down. Spellcheck and proofreading really needs to be done on any correspondence with a company. Never give them a reason to circular file your letter right off of the bat. Also, watch the tone of the letter. Going on a full bore attack from the starting gate will get the letter junked quick.you want to persuade them, not berate them. Another method to get your letter read is to send it through the mail. Not electronically. Email is super easy to erase, often it is only read by a both that returns an automatic response, never to be seen by human eyes.
Buy a single share of the company's stock. Starting off your letter with "As a shareholder ..." adds a ton of impact. And adds considerable weight to your argument.
That said, while at this point in my gaming career, my painting is actually funding my own hobby, gw's business practices do annoy me greatly in several areas that were touched upon in your friend's letter. I usually only buy White Dwarf if it has a particularly good painting article in it. Huge gaping holes in the model lines hurts many armies in both fantasy and 40k.
Okay..think this one is going into the record books as the most comments from any post I have every made...I just wish it was my letter that was getting the comments. I do agree that the guy...who I found out is like 20, needed to proof read a lot of his stuff. I thought the "Your Fired" thing was hilarious too. But the more times I read it, it does seem to bring out some good points. I think point #6 is just whining, he probably played dwarfs at Ard Boyz and got hosed by a few of the rules..something most of us can adjust in our list to prevent. So I going to leave that one alone, but the other ones I did have some comments on...
Point #1: Finecast isn't really that great...I bought one finecast model and I don't think I going to buy anymore. Its took forever to clean up the model, and I was really worried when doing it that I would destroy some of the details. The cost thing I really didn't like, since they are making it cheaper to produce, why did it get more expensive to buy? They should have done like Chaos Daemons and just reproduced the models in plastic rather then resin. As for the melting thing, I'm not sure. I know my DE Archon's sword I am having to constantly bend back straight. I have seen the air bubble thing, but GW replaced them.
Point #2: I don't have a GW store in Savannah, so we really don't care about the "only GW model" rule. I do agree with not producing the models line though. It does seem like they rush to the next army and just forget to go back and add finish out the last army line-up. It sometimes feels like they are trying to pull a "newest and greatest" army thing over on us, sell a bunch of core items, and then release the next "newest and greatest" army.
Point #3: Never bought a White Dwarf. If I want painting tips or new information on upcoming releases..I come here.
Point #4: This is a home run in my book. They need to start making weapon packs. It would make them money, cause I know how much time I waste trying to trade bits and weapons, and some of them are almost impossible to get the number you need. I wanted all my wyches to have the helmet heads, but not paying the asking prices on ebay for them.
Point #5: Another good point. You can call GW 10 times and get 10 different answers, and it takes them way too long to get an FAQ out. Then when the FAQ does come out, it still doesn't answer all of my questions. I tried to get GW to send me an email about Doom guy in Tyranids codex affecting units in a vehicle so I could show proof, but they won't send anything, they just say "thanks for your question...for us to answer it, please call customer support".
In general I think GW is losing touch with their customer base, and I hope it changes cause I really like playing 40k. I might write and I mean write a letter to GW based on his points. Just to see if it does anything. If not, well, there are other games out there.
Ralin Givens wrote:Well then there's the money for the ink, calligraphy lessons, nice paper, walking/driving to the post office, a new pen to write with, wax seal, ring for your wax seal.....it all adds up!
Well if he used a computer, he doesn't need calligraphy, even real nice resume paper isl 500 sheets for $10 (again american), in the US the postman comes to your house or place of business to collect the mail so he wouldn't even have to leave his parents house, a bic pen is 5 cents or 20 for $1 just to sign it, as for the wax ring and seal, well....yeah it adds up your right,....
To be honest, asides from the spelling mistakes, his letter has been layed out so poorly that I doubt even the goons at GW who go through this stuff will spare it more than a passing glance. While he has valid points, he'll never get anywhere if he cannot conduct himself in a formal manner and communicate his thoughts and feelings in professional style.
Darkvoidof40k wrote:To be honest, asides from the spelling mistakes, his letter has been layed out so poorly that I doubt even the goons at GW who go through this stuff will spare it more than a passing glance. While he has valid points, he'll never get anywhere if he cannot conduct himself in a formal manner and communicate his thoughts and feelings in professional style.
Just because he cannot express himself properly doe not make his points any less valid.
Whilst I disagree with the "bezerker" style of writing, 99% of what is said is true and needs to be said, as GW have their heads so far up their own arses it's just unreal. If you want to see how to conduct a coherent rant that hits it right out of the park just go get CM Punk.
1) Teething problems. You expect some problems when a company starts a new range, and from what I have seen and heard in my Local GW the majority of people are happy.
2) I can understand GW not letting non-GW models in the store, you would not eat a Big mac in Burger king would you? Why should war-gaming be any different.
3) Yeah it is not that good and a bit of a rip off, but it is aimed more at the younger war-gamers.
4) It would be nice to be able to buy more bits from GW, but so would being able to teleport.
5) Most of the things in the FAQ just need people to use common sense and a brain.
My club plays out of warhammer world and we had a core of historical gamers who used GW's rule sets, because of how GW treated them they left and went elsewhere.
I hope the Games Workshop execs who opened that e-mail delivers it to the appropriate department. They'll find the Deliver key marked Del on their keyboard.
It seems like the average rant post on /tg/, of course I dont know if they're still like this since I was banned during the admin reign of terror
Anyways if I learned one thing, it is that mail complaints to GW is as futile as fixing a car with only rubber toys. Most of their hate mail probably gets redirected to an auto spam folder and deleted promptly. Unless this is a physical letter in which it'll get a glance and tossed in the recycle bin. If someone who actually works there can correct me, please do so.
If you are going to write any sort of complaint letter to GW and would like it to be taken seriously or even actually read then you need to:
a) Use a Spell Checker and Grammer Checker.
b) Take the 'emotion' out of it and quote facts.
Just like you walking into a shop and shouting at a member of staff would get you thrown out and not listened to, a letter like this just gets deleted.
As others have mentioned, a simple spell check goes a long way.
Now, I don't play GW games though I do love my tyranids and my marines I use other rule sets. So I look at this from a business perspective since I am not invested in GW either way.
If my company got this, it would simply be deleted after the first paragraph was read. Even if the points are valid, there seems to be a lack of specific examples, and a lack of evidence that the customer tried to address specific issues (like having received a miscast 'finecast' min, what steps did you take with my company to sort it out before this ranting letter?).
It comes across as immature and won't be taken seriously by anyone with any decision making authority in any company.
When you correspond with a company, especially if you want executive level attention, you have to determine what your goal of the communication is, and then construct the communication so as to achieve your goal. If the goal is to rant and rave, do not expect the communication to be taken seriously. If the goal is to have the company address an issue, ranting and raving does not go far.
CptJake wrote:If the goal is to rant and rave, do not expect the communication to be taken seriously. If the goal is to have the company address an issue, ranting and raving does not go far.
This is the internet! All we know is ranting and raving!
I would like to see what the reply from GW is, in my experience they usaully try to reply to everything.
He has made all the points people have been saying for yonks now, I just hope GW actually adresses them before there customers disappear overnight. That could be a danger with the likes of mantic games coming through and a lot of Historical companies popping up with GW formats and plastic kits on par at half the price ...
Hmmm, what have we here? A ranting email, apparently from someone that can not even manage use a spelling checker on the same program that he is using to send said email.
Yes, I think we will file this one under deleted items along with all the others. Now what’s for lunch?
The irony of people on dakka complaining about grammar. Most people on Dakka start a new line after every point, which isn't grammattical (lol). He brings up many good points, the chief being bitz sprues. Blind freddy could see it is a good idea to release them and always has been. In regard to what the OP said, it's entirely valid to discount everything he said because of his spelling.... I am now off to Oxford toff school to fnar fnar about the uneducated masses.
Most folks typing into a text box without an organic spell check/grammar check function on Daka are not attempting to communicate with the executives of a large business... You (should) write for your target audience and do so with the goal of your communinication guiding you. The letter in the opening post fails badly in that light.
Aye, I would agree with Slarg, whats the point of maoning, from the way they cracked down on moaning on the GW Facebook page they know they have issues - its just up to them to fix it. Moaning gets you no where except a miserable existance...
I liked the letter and well done for sending it! I wrote a letter to Jervis politely raising my concerns and lo and behold three and a half weeks later I got a reply! Now I'd like to tell you all that the letter answered my points but alas it didn't. All it was was a stock reply letter thanking me for taking the time to write aand ends with Jervis thanking me and saying its always good to hear what is happening in the melting pot that is the hobby. I think I see a pattern here as I wrote to him 3 years ago and got the same letter, so I'd say to anyone; send GW a letter in any format you wish as they are ignoring the polite ones also.
theQuanz wrote:Guys, I think he is angry.
Wrong...no.
Angry...probably.
Wrong..yes. In that he's wasting his time if he wants anyone to read his rant. If you insult someone, don't expect them to care enough to read through your angry rant.
Angry, sure. But I'm confused, since it's not like this stuff all occurred at once, did he just have some nerd rage epiphany one morning and decide to go on a rampage?
GW stopped reading this after the first 2 sentences. People letters like this is the "reason" GW doesn't listen to its customers. Stop sending in garbage like this and ruining it for all the other customers who have valid points.
Sometimes when you try to show someone how smart you are you end up looking dumb!
Kanluwen wrote:I like how he started off by spelling "You're" wrong and went on ranting from there.
I'm not gonna dissect the rant-letter, but I seriously question the common sense/intelligence/sanity of anyone who would leave models in a trunk during the summer...
Woah...rage mode off.
He has good points they are just poorly executed. I agree with him on almost everything. I have never had a plastic or metal mini melt and I live in TEXAS! I haven't got any finecast yet since my LGS isn't a GW store and still has metal models that he gets from his distributor.
I know I don't spell perfectly but on something like that I would definently hit F7 for a spell check.
Well, the contents of the letter is fine. In particular, I second the complaints on game support, finecast model, and bitz.
However, at the moment, GW thinks that the ball is not lying in its court.
I wouldn't say the contents of the letter are fine. There's an awful lot of internet hyperbole and misunderstanding on his part. Like the whole Finecast melting into a puddle? Doesn't happen, it's been tested. It really is just hate mail. Poorly spelt and worded hate mail.
kinghammer wrote:GW stopped reading this after the first 2 sentences. People letters like this is the "reason" GW doesn't listen to its customers. Stop sending in garbage like this and ruining it for all the other customers who have valid points.
This does make me wonder though, do they listen to more civilized criticism?
kinghammer wrote:GW stopped reading this after the first 2 sentences. People letters like this is the "reason" GW doesn't listen to its customers. Stop sending in garbage like this and ruining it for all the other customers who have valid points.
This does make me wonder though, do they listen to more civilized criticism?
Listen? Probably not.
But several of the more well-written letters have received responses from Mark Wells, even if it's apparently a "form letter" with his signature.
Slarg232 wrote:I agree with the first five points, and the point of him making too many spelling errors for this to be taken seriously.
But anyway.... Yeah, I'm heading over to Warmachine, hopefully PP is different/better.
You know, I might have to do that whole idea of printing out a letter, signing it with my name, and sending it in all formal like. Because I can.
Best of luck getting enough models in a timely fashion to field an army. /offpassiveaggressivesarcasm
To those criticizing people picking out the glaring grammatical errors: this is a legitimate concern. People don't take letters/complaints/anything seriously, regardless of the validity, if the complainant can't bother to draft a grammatically accurate letter. It's the simple truth of the matter. The misuse of the possessive "your" at the very beginning of the letter would immediately warrant me to toss this letter in the trash.
Although the OP calls it a letter, I was wondering if it was an actual letter, or an email. I agree completely with Cincy about the grammatical issues, and additionally feel that actual letters are far more likely to receive attention than an email.
Jimsolo wrote:...I was wondering if it was an actual letter, or an email. I agree completely with Cincy about the grammatical issues, and additionally feel that actual letters are far more likely to receive attention than an email.
This was addressed in multiple posts throughout. But in general yes letters that show up with a postage stamp in an envelop always carry more weight than an email. And if the spelling and punctuation is good they really look at it.
1. Finecast: These could certainly be better than they are but they're nowhere near as bad as the guy makes them out to be. The detail is at least as good as the metals although some defects in the casting problems have turned people off. I've had to return a few myself but once I got a non-defective product it was really nice. Assuming a properly cast sprue, there is no part of a Finecast model that is less detailed than a metal counterpart. The comment about melting is an outright lie which certainly doesn't help his position any. Everyone knows the price increase was part of the annual price increase and not something special just for the Finecast stuff.
The big turn-off about Finecast is the sales speak the GW staff were told to vomit out to their customers. Yes, metal shrinks in the mold when cooling but it doesn't shrink that much and certainly not enough to ruin the detail. That being said, I like the Finecast stuff much more than metal figures. Don't take that as a glowing endorsement though, I really really hate metal figures. Metal is pretty much what stops me from even looking at other companies's stuff. Stupid Avatars of War and their stupid metal models. Companies with amazingly great sculpts need to do resin casts. Seriously.
2. GW stores not allowing non-GW models in the store: Well, they're not an "independant hobby store" that sells products from all sorts of companies. They're a shop set up by GW for the express purpose of selling GW product. Having people playing in their stores is a form of advertising. It shows potential customers that if they buy GW product there are people who will game with them, hobby with them, and otherwise make it worth their time and money. Now for the bad news. GW is not in business to sell products from Privateer Press, Mantic, or any other manufacture. If they want to "ban" all non GW product from their stores then that's their right. If you don't like it, you can always find an independent store with gaming space and take your figures (and your business) there. No such place in your area? Sucks to be you then.
Forge World modes are expensive. They always have been. None are in any way necessary to play in any tournament - some tournaments even ban them - so I'm not sure why their prices are an issue. I also don't understand what missing units in the army list have to do with GW stores but I guess the guy was on a tear. I guess he just doesn't like doing conversions. Or maybe he's a 'Nid player. His car analogy is wrong, though. A better analagy would be a car maker that made economy cars, sports cars, sedans and mini-vans but don't make SUV's or trucks. Bad news if you're a truck guy I guess.
3. White Dwarf: Do people actually scan this? Really? A magazine that's basically an advert/catalogue you pay for? I thought illegal PDF's were made from scanned stuff that's worth your time to read. My bad. Personally, I haven't subscribed in many years because of this and I don't look for PDF copies either. I'll have to see how this new "emphasis on content" plays out before I subscribe in the future. I don't really think it's worth subscribing to but I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because of it. Take it or leave it - I did.
4. Bitz: GW isn't really a bits seller but you can certainly go to their site and fine some stuff. Still, they've included a LOT more options in the newer kits and from a purely business mentality point putting only one of a popular item on a sprue is actually a good idea. Think of it like putting those "chase cards" in collectable card games. Yea, it's frustrating for me as a player sometimes but I'm at least capable of understanding the brilliance of it from a business standpoint even if I'd rather they didn't do it. Besides, there are companies that buy bulk product, cut up the kits, and put the bits on eBay and the like. Solves my problem and keeps my blood pressure low. GW used to sell bits back in the day, and it was really nice at the time, but back then everything was metal so unsold stock could just be resmelted and recast into something else. Can't really do that with resin or plastic.
I will agree with this guy regarding GW's letigious and monopolistic nature. That garbage gets really annoying. I mean I wasn't going to buy that Lamassu that Raging Heroes made but I fully support the idea that GW had no business threatening them simply because they made it. I would love to see Chapterhouse prevail in their legal endeavors. LOVE IT. I fully support people who make and sell aftermarket mods and think a Chapterhouse win would likely do a hell of a lot of good for the hobby as a whole.
5. Game Support: You need a degree in English to play? o.O Okay, aside from the hyperbol, I'm generally inclined to agree here. The rules could be clearer and less conflicting and the FAQ's have generally been crap but things seem to be getting better, at least that's my impression. I'd rather Matt Ward never write again but I'm not running to Warmahordes if he does. Still, I understand that the redesign of the game every few years is done with the intent of getting people to buy more models - GW's primary purpose for existing. Remember this and remember it well: GW is a miniatures company not a game company. They are not Hasbro, WizKids, Mattel, or any of those other game makers. They make and sell miniatures. 40k and WHFB are simply a mechanism to produce sales. Why do you think the Specialist Games stuff has been discontinued? Because they weren't driving miniatures sales. Once you understand and accept this, it won't make GW's rules any clearer but it will make you care a lot less about them.
6. 'Ard Boyz: I don't play tournaments any more so I can't comment about their organization. When I did, I tended to not really have fun because everyone was TFG and the negative "energy" was palpable. It happens even when the prizez are actually of little value to anyone. I haven't heard anyone try to convince me that tournaments held for another company's product are any different. No thanks, I'll stick to friendly games where I don't need to put up with an organizer's failings.
"As far as the future of GW goes, you need to start listening to your gamers, rather then your stockholders." - This would be the fastest way for GW to go out of business. There isn't a single publically traded company out there that would adopt a business model based on his rant and last more than a couple of years. It may suck from a player/hobbiest point of view but that's the way it is.
Hopefully I've made some salient points. If not then I've simply typed a wall of text for the sake of doing so. Either way, I win.
Adam LongWalker wrote:
Games Workshop is not "THE HOBBY". It is one of many hobbies out in this industry.
In many places though, it is THE HOBBY. Some people have no choice, its either GW or no wargaming at all
From your point of view that is correct. I've traveled cross country and yea I've seen this happen. I've also seen the change of other games cropping up in my travels as well.
My comment is referring to the business part of the industry. 10 years ago they Were "The Hobby". I do not believe it is the case anymore.
GW was not The Hobby ten years ago either. I've been playing miniatures wargames since the mid-80s when I was in high school and can confirm GW was never The Hobby unless YOU made it The Hobby for yourself...
CptJake wrote:GW was not The Hobby ten years ago either. I've been playing miniatures wargames since the mid-80s when I was in high school and can confirm GW was never The Hobby unless YOU made it The Hobby for yourself...
Jake
I think you don't quite get what I am trying to say. I am referring to the business aspect. 2001 Games workshop -was- the 800 pound gorilla for this aspect of the hobby. It was "The Hobby" as it had control of its market share at that time.
Now they have competition. Lots of STIFF competition. They can not even use that quote in 2011 because many people, us grognards, such as like myself who been modeling/table top games for +40 years will stop and just laugh at them.
CptJake wrote:GW was not The Hobby ten years ago either. I've been playing miniatures wargames since the mid-80s when I was in high school and can confirm GW was never The Hobby unless YOU made it The Hobby for yourself...
Jake
I think you don't quite get what I am trying to say. I am referring to the business aspect. 2001 Games workshop -was- the 800 pound gorilla for this aspect of the hobby. It was "The Hobby" as it had control of its market share at that time.
Now they have competition. Lots of STIFF competition. They can not even use that quote in 2011 because many people, us grognards, such as like myself who been modeling/table top games for +40 years will stop and just laugh at them.
They are not the 800 pound Gorilla anymore.
I get what you're saying, I just disagree completely. If you want to add caveats like 'Fantasy' to The Hobby you may come closer, but from a miniatures gaming hobby, they have never been the 800 pound gorilla for historical gaming for example. And though other companies may have been more poorly run or had other issues, there have always been competitors to GW. Heck, even when I played fantasy games most of my figures were from companies like Ral Partha or Grenadier. FASA was around and produced some cool stuff during the period you say GW was The Hobby. I've been miniature gaming for a while and NEVER played or bought GW stuff until I got the Battle For Macragge set. I played the scenarios it came with and have never played a 40K game since, but have used the figures quite a bit with other rules systems.
A great example is figure scales. Yes, Citadel produced some 15mm figures years ago for Striker. But 15mm is a scale that is HUGE in historical miniatures gaming, and has been growing for Sci Fi in the last few years. Tons of quality 15mm fantasy figures out there too. GW never got into that market. Ever. 6mm scale is another example. Tons of 6mm historical stuff, and there has been for decades. Companies like GHQ and H&R and others. GW had Epic/Space Marine, but 6mm existed way before them, and continues to exist way after that is a GW supported scale. Quite a few 6mm Sci Fi lines available too, and there have been for years.
So, I just can't agree to GW ever having been The Hobby, because in the groups Ihave gamed with and in my personal gaming experience, frankly they just never were.
Never had an issue if something doesn't have a model using a conversion. In fact I've never had an issue with using a conversion provided it was made with GW bits as much as possible. Obviously a Tervigon needs some substantial greenstuff.
I think some people lack a brain on this issue and make stuff up
2. GW stores not allowing non-GW models in the store: Well, they're not an "independant hobby store" that sells products from all sorts of companies. They're a shop set up by GW for the express purpose of selling GW product. Having people playing in their stores is a form of advertising. It shows potential customers that if they buy GW product there are people who will game with them, hobby with them, and otherwise make it worth their time and money. Now for the bad news. GW is not in business to sell products from Privateer Press, Mantic, or any other manufacture. If they want to "ban" all non GW product from their stores then that's their right. If you don't like it, you can always find an independent store with gaming space and take your figures (and your business) there. No such place in your area? Sucks to be you then.
Forge World modes are expensive. They always have been. None are in any way necessary to play in any tournament - some tournaments even ban them - so I'm not sure why their prices are an issue. I also don't understand what missing units in the army list have to do with GW stores but I guess the guy was on a tear. I guess he just doesn't like doing conversions. Or maybe he's a 'Nid player. His car analogy is wrong, though. A better analagy would be a car maker that made economy cars, sports cars, sedans and mini-vans but don't make SUV's or trucks. Bad news if you're a truck guy I guess.
4. Bitz: GW isn't really a bits seller but you can certainly go to their site and fine some stuff. Still, they've included a LOT more options in the newer kits and from a purely business mentality point putting only one of a popular item on a sprue is actually a good idea. Think of it like putting those "chase cards" in collectable card games. Yea, it's frustrating for me as a player sometimes but I'm at least capable of understanding the brilliance of it from a business standpoint even if I'd rather they didn't do it. Besides, there are companies that buy bulk product, cut up the kits, and put the bits on eBay and the like. Solves my problem and keeps my blood pressure low. GW used to sell bits back in the day, and it was really nice at the time, but back then everything was metal so unsold stock could just be resmelted and recast into something else. Can't really do that with resin or plastic.
I will agree with this guy regarding GW's letigious and monopolistic nature. That garbage gets really annoying. I mean I wasn't going to buy that Lamassu that Raging Heroes made but I fully support the idea that GW had no business threatening them simply because they made it. I would love to see Chapterhouse prevail in their legal endeavors. LOVE IT. I fully support people who make and sell aftermarket mods and think a Chapterhouse win would likely do a hell of a lot of good for the hobby as a whole.
I think a lot of people fell to their own pious beliefs in the Emperor and were unable to look past simple errors. And let's face it, if Dakka posts are to be any judge the majority of players have the same spelling and grammar issues as OP's quoted letter. That's not even pointing out that a great portion of GW's clients are still in middle school! So I personally would find it a greater insult for GW themselves to not take the time to read the letter if it was in fact sent; because no matter how bad it may be written ((and it could have been a LOT worse)) we are still GW's clients, and their shareholders money makers.
@Breotan - I thin you've a well balanced take on the situations; but I think you might have missed some of the arguments and why they strike so deep.
Point 2: was one of the ones that really struck a cord with me as well. I play a desert themed IG army, and luck would had it my GW store had a desert table! YAY! However, GW decided no non-GW models at ALL; this included terrain. Before I had access to an awesome table with rocky pillars, plateaus and cliffs, now its a flat table with gothic buildings as the only option of scenery. In short the table looks like gak because there is no scenery made for it. Of course the answer is only to continue manufacturing my own terrain for my own board at home; but it certainly put a damper on playing at GW. And to be quite honest, it affected ALL the tables not just the desert table.
Point 4: this one ties to Point 2 in a way as well; but its staggering that tourney's would ban FW models considering that in many cases they are the only source for particular models; IG and Tyranid players know exactly what I'm talking about. But that alone is not the key issue here I think you zipped over with out even knowing of it, or acknowledging its impact.
A particular example that is quite the annoyance was the new Russ and Chimera kits; they no longer come with the accessory spru. Now at first I said "Oh, okay this is cool I'll be able to JUST buy the accessory spru and that will be awesome." Then I saw the $20 price tag. Now for reference of why this notion is sickening, a tank is $60. And before the new kits came out, Russ's were roughly $50; its odd to think that one spru in a box of 5 was worth $20 by itself; but that is the GW money making scheme.
You've said that its only clear to you that the business model is sound; but its not. I know many will attempt to argue me that GW produces a higher quality product than most off the shelf model kit companies; but the reality is far from that. AMT, Trumpeter, Tamiya; all produce high quality kits ((yes even the Chinese Trumpeter kits are amazing!)) at much lower prices than GW kits. The key to the listed companies is volume. Tamiya in particular produces some expensive kits, on LARGE scales with insane detail; detail that makes any tanker, top gun nut, or car enthusiast wet their lil knickers when they get them out the box! But they sell on volume by keeping prices down. 1:72 scale plane models have almost NOT changed in price since I was 10. 1:16 scale has seen some flux based on detail of course, because THAT large of a scale for most things = a very large model. Even 1:32 the average scale for plane modelers have not seen the increase in model costs that GW seems to get hit with every year. Where GW will go up $10, I'll find kits going DOWN $5 in some cases.
Anyway; I'm not targeting you personally here, or at the very least its not my intention. But you voiced one of the common arguments I hear: "But GW is only doing it in the interest of keeping afloat so we can keep playing their game." Well, GW isn't the nice guy no more; its legal division is about as big as its model division! Its stockholder is the only lips it listen to; even though the stockholders don't MAKE the money for GW ((granted I would not advise them to NOT listen to their stockholders; that would just be non-sense, but fair play in this would be nice; cause we ARE the client.)) And clearly profits are up when one takes a look at the expenditures they put themselves at; namely White Dwarf, and its not JUST the magazine itself, but gander inside the thing and look at the costs of the model displays! The typical rebut to that is that GW produces this so its MUCH cheaper for them to get access, well if its only $5 per piece its still not cheap to produce those displays; $20 per piece then maybe, but look at the gouging; and remember displays are often made at stores so shipping costs still have to be in there already.
really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
are overruled as they are the only "supermarket" wargaming store (do you see PP stores in your place), and therefore its the only wargame most noobs know.
oh and someone posted that everyone might leave GW and join PP please don't, wargame makers are like politicians, look at GW at the beginning they were all right and after a few million fans look at them now...I fear that if PP get a few more million fans they will become the same.
Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.
Move on, other games out there need your attention.
Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?
Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.
Move on, other games out there need your attention.
Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?
I don't think they're "DEAD AND BURIED FOREVER" right now, but look at their pattern: Over the past few years, their sales have generally been flagging. Their solution has been to close hobby centers, reduce staff, etc., standard cost cutting measures, and raise their prices. Their income has remained fairly flat because of this. Essentially, they haven't shown any growth, and the only reason they haven't shrunk significantly is because they're raised prices and cut costs.
The problem is, eventually, they won't be able to cut costs any further, and their prices will be beyond what people are willing to pay. It's hard enough to get people interested in Warhammer when they have to pay 200 to 300 USD just to get started. Yet GW continues to raise prices, well beyond the rate of inflation. For the past five years they've continually said, in their investor relation reports, "We now know what we need to do to grow. We've got everything in place." But for the past five years, they haven't shown any significant growth. In fact, I believe last year, they showed some shrinkage, albeit fairly insignificant shrinkage. They seem to think that this embargo is somehow going to help, but I really doubt the Aussies who bought from Maelstrom and spent $33 AUD on troop boxes are going to go merrily spend $55 AUD at local game stores. If anything, they're probably just going to give up buying GW products.
Basically, reading the IR reports, IMO, shows a company that doesn't really know what to do and, in fact, is in denial that they might be in trouble.
As to the original topic of this thread:
I pretty much stopped reading after "your fired". Poor grammar and a confrontational attitude pretty much means the letter will be ignored.
GW still has legs, just has to learn how to use them.
They're expanding into new Markets from what I see (like Russia) and that's not something you tend to do when the pressure is really on. Sales are indeed down, but then we are also in a pretty severe global recession. Profits of course, are still being made.
To say they're stuffed is just wishful thinking I'm afraid.
really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
are overruled as they are the only "supermarket" wargaming store (do you see PP stores in your place), and therefore its the only wargame most noobs know.
oh and someone posted that everyone might leave GW and join PP please don't, wargame makers are like politicians, look at GW at the beginning they were all right and after a few million fans look at them now...I fear that if PP get a few more million fans they will become the same.
This is not the case of not just putting the prices down. Many people are sick and tired of paying a premium for sub par product.
As stated before I GOT MONEY. BUT I refuse to give Games workshop the amount of money that I used to give because of the rules that favor one codex over another. Codexes that favor the SM/IG over everyone else. The only reason why I still pay $20.00 dollars per month is that is what I feel is right when I go and try to play a game at a GW store.
I Vote with MY wallet and in my Region there IS a desired effect.
Dracheous wrote:Anyway; I'm not targeting you personally here, or at the very least its not my intention. But you voiced one of the common arguments I hear: "But GW is only doing it in the interest of keeping afloat so we can keep playing their game." <snip> You've said that its only clear to you that the business model is sound; but its not.
Actually, that wasn't my argument and I'm sorry if I wrote it like it was. My only intent was to portray GW's decisions as business oriented with the goal of the business remaining functional and profitable and when possible growing. I intended no value assesment on their pricing, marketing, or distribution policies other than to state that doing what your fans/customers demand you to do will cause the eventual ugly death of your company. Most anyone with a business degree with understand what I mean by this. Could GW's prices be lower while still letting them grow as a company? Probably. Does GW management want to wring every last penny they can out of their "loyal customer base"? Quite probably. Is GW's business model sound? Do other companies suceed with a different model? The answer is yes to both questions. Revell has made military and car models for much longer than GW. Companies that cator to model railroad enthusiasts are still going strong since the 1950s. So a different approach can certainly be taken and work very well. The real question is, does GW have any incentive to change their current business model? Well, they've been doing this for over 20 years at least and they're still growing and still "King of the Hill" so to speak so I think the unvarnished facts show that they really don't have to.
I don't take opposing views personally. Some people on Dakka have called me an apologist, but I'm really not. I'm just conscious of what the facts are and have chosen to buy models from a company that sells them at a premium. Do I wish I could get them cheaper? Of course. In fact, I do most of my shopping on eBay where the discounts are; I always have. I'm not stupid, after all. I've refused trade offers in my two trade threads because people would rather sell me their models instead of trading for stuff I list. It's taken me three months to get a decent unit of Ironguts because people just aren't giving them up and I refuse to pay retail for the box - even the Battalion box. Still, I understand full well what GW is doing and it is always my choice to buy their product or go elsewhere. I guess my perspective may be different because I'm a modeller, not a gamer. I love building, converting, painting, and showing off my work more than I do actually playing. Maybe that's because I generally don't like GW's game design or maybe I just really like the amazing models they're making. Will I ever leave GW? I'm not a fanboy so as soon as someone starts making high quality sculpts in plastic for less than GW does, I very well may. In the meantime I'm not going to pretend like I'm being victomized by a merciless corporation when each purchase I make is clearly my own choice.
I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.
Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.
really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly) are overruled as they are the only "supermarket" wargaming store (do you see PP stores in your place), and therefore its the only wargame most noobs know.
oh and someone posted that everyone might leave GW and join PP please don't, wargame makers are like politicians, look at GW at the beginning they were all right and after a few million fans look at them now...I fear that if PP get a few more million fans they will become the same.
This is not the case of not just putting the prices down. Many people are sick and tired of paying a premium for sub par product.
As stated before I GOT MONEY. BUT I refuse to give Games workshop the amount of money that I used to give because of the rules that favor one codex over another. Codexes that favor the SM/IG over everyone else. The only reason why I still pay $20.00 dollars per month is that is what I feel is right when I go and try to play a game at a GW store.
I Vote with MY wallet and in my Region there IS a desired effect.
to be faily honest the rules dont really favor anyone
its actually the codexes revolve around the rule book
look at the recent releses, they all have had the better rules scince dark eldar relese so really its the "latest codex wins" type of thing (althogh GK are just the harshest codex available) but there all beatable still.
the problem i have is the prices (like everyone else) if they sold a deff dread for £12.99 people would be buying triple of that product hence more gamers would be intoduced to the hobby and GW would be making the same or more mony and everyone would be happy, it is just the case of GW is blind to their options.
I've always thaought that they should have kept the bits options and need to finish some of their lines like tyranids. However after playing this game for several years, I have noticed that GW produces armies that are better than any of the previous ones so that they can make money.
Now about the letter, there are so many grammar issues with it that nobody will take it seriously because they can barely understand it.
TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?
No, it's not bad at all. Your statement is pretty close to reality. There are a lot of people though, who when they quit a game want everything left to burn and die. Some high % of Warmachine players are ex-GW players. I've heard them yelling that GW is dead for nearly a decade. GW is still a magnitude ahead of any competitors for overall sales, distribution, and total value of the company. They have problems, but so do all the smaller companies. We see more of GW's financials, and none of companies like PP, so it's hard to compare. But GW has very little debt, and their stock is doing good.
I'm like everyone else in that I'd like to see certain changes. But in no way are they in as bad a position as some people wished they were.)
TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?
No, it's not bad at all. Your statement is pretty close to reality. There are a lot of people though, who when they quit a game want everything left to burn and die. Some high % of Warmachine players are ex-GW players. I've heard them yelling that GW is dead for nearly a decade. GW is still a magnitude ahead of any competitors for overall sales, distribution, and total value of the company. They have problems, but so do all the smaller companies. We see more of GW's financials, and none of companies like PP, so it's hard to compare. But GW has very little debt, and their stock is doing good.
I'm like everyone else in that I'd like to see certain changes. But in no way are they in as bad a position as some people wished they were.)
Be that as it may, it's alot better investment of time and money to pay $60 for a video game, other $51 for a single tank. They can't raise prices much more than what they currently are, simply because it's starting to compete with other forms of entertainment.
Yeah sure, a Model is totally different from a Game, but look at it from Tommy Space Marine Player Tydik: "I bought Space Marine for the 360, and I think the world is pretty cool. Hey, it's a game you can play with models! Sweet! Oh wait.... I can buy Space Marines for $60 for ten Marines, or I can buy Skyrim, which comes out in four days....."
Also, (and this is pointed at everyone) don't bring up the fact that you have to buy a Xbox 360 for the games, since you have to buy a book, Rulebook, and a Starter Set to get into this game, coming close to the $300 a 360 costs.
TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?
No, it's not bad at all. Your statement is pretty close to reality. There are a lot of people though, who when they quit a game want everything left to burn and die. Some high % of Warmachine players are ex-GW players. I've heard them yelling that GW is dead for nearly a decade. GW is still a magnitude ahead of any competitors for overall sales, distribution, and total value of the company. They have problems, but so do all the smaller companies. We see more of GW's financials, and none of companies like PP, so it's hard to compare. But GW has very little debt, and their stock is doing good.
I'm like everyone else in that I'd like to see certain changes. But in no way are they in as bad a position as some people wished they were.)
Be that as it may, it's alot better investment of time and money to pay $60 for a video game, other $51 for a single tank. They can't raise prices much more than what they currently are, simply because it's starting to compete with other forms of entertainment.
Yeah sure, a Model is totally different from a Game, but look at it from Tommy Space Marine Player Tydik: "I bought Space Marine for the 360, and I think the world is pretty cool. Hey, it's a game you can play with models! Sweet! Oh wait.... I can buy Space Marines for $60 for ten Marines, or I can buy Skyrim, which comes out in four days....."
Also, (and this is pointed at everyone) don't bring up the fact that you have to buy a Xbox 360 for the games, since you have to buy a book, Rulebook, and a Starter Set to get into this game, coming close to the $300 a 360 costs.
Neither is an 'investment' of time or money. Just an expense for your hobby. The money and time are gone as soon as you spend them.
If you like video games, they xbox game is a better deal. If you want to play with toy soldiers, it isn't.
Many people will do both, and pay the cost of both. Not an either/or proposition. As long as enough people are buying what GW sells, and they continue to turn a profit and keep shareholders happy, they will do fine. There are some warning signs right now, but that's about it. And with this economy, a lot of other companies are looking worse than GW.
happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.
Slarg232 wrote:Be that as it may, it's alot better investment of time and money to pay $60 for a video game, other $51 for a single tank. They can't raise prices much more than what they currently are, simply because it's starting to compete with other forms of entertainment.
Yeah sure, a Model is totally different from a Game, but look at it from Tommy Space Marine Player Tydik: "I bought Space Marine for the 360, and I think the world is pretty cool. Hey, it's a game you can play with models! Sweet! Oh wait.... I can buy Space Marines for $60 for ten Marines, or I can buy Skyrim, which comes out in four days....."
Also, (and this is pointed at everyone) don't bring up the fact that you have to buy a Xbox 360 for the games, since you have to buy a book, Rulebook, and a Starter Set to get into this game, coming close to the $300 a 360 costs.
Neither is an 'investment' of time or money. Just an expense for your hobby. The money and time are gone as soon as you spend them.
If you like video games, they xbox game is a better deal. If you want to play with toy soldiers, it isn't.
Many people will do both, and pay the cost of both. Not an either/or proposition. As long as enough people are buying what GW sells, and they continue to turn a profit and keep shareholders happy, they will do fine. There are some warning signs right now, but that's about it. And with this economy, a lot of other companies are looking worse than GW.
Both are an investment of time and money: You pay for them (with money), and you put them together/paint/play with them (Models), or you merely pop it in and play (Video Games) both eating up time.
As for doing both: I was hooked into Warhammer at an early age. I also grew up with a SNES controller in hy hands. I have a good 70 $60 games for my Xbox 360. I also have a good 2000 pts of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Orcs and Goblins, and then 500 pts of Beasts of Chaos. I have visited forums for both. I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top, hell, I know people who loved the flying feth out of DoW and still don't realize its a TT game. My point is, they are not going to increase sales through video games, because most gamers wont be willing to put aside buying Modern Warfare 75 or Bioshock Infinite or whatever to spend $60 on some models they don't know how to use.
Slarg232 wrote:As for doing both: I was hooked into Warhammer at an early age. I also grew up with a SNES controller in hy hands. I have a good 70 $60 games for my Xbox 360. I also have a good 2000 pts of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Orcs and Goblins, and then 500 pts of Beasts of Chaos. I have visited forums for both. I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top, hell, I know people who loved the flying feth out of DoW and still don't realize its a TT game. My point is, they are not going to increase sales through video games, because most gamers wont be willing to put aside buying Modern Warfare 75 or Bioshock Infinite or whatever to spend $60 on some models they don't know how to use.
Based on the actual evidence of players coming into my store to get into 40k after playing DOW, I'd have to say your guarantee is a bit worthless.
You've got your veiwpoint from your personal experience, I have mine. Mine is attatched to running a game store 70 hours a week for a couple of decades. After selling a many dozens of starter sets to people that first got exposed to GW from video games, I'd have to disagree with you. DOW and now the new Space Marine game are great advertising for GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slarg232 wrote:Both are an investment of time and money: You pay for them (with money), and you put them together/paint/play with them (Models), or you merely pop it in and play (Video Games) both eating up time.
Well, I guess we have a different definition of 'investment'.)
When I 'invest' money into something, I want a return. Just eating up time with a video game is sort of like buying stock in Borders Books.
Slarg232 wrote:As for doing both: I was hooked into Warhammer at an early age. I also grew up with a SNES controller in hy hands. I have a good 70 $60 games for my Xbox 360. I also have a good 2000 pts of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Orcs and Goblins, and then 500 pts of Beasts of Chaos. I have visited forums for both. I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top, hell, I know people who loved the flying feth out of DoW and still don't realize its a TT game. My point is, they are not going to increase sales through video games, because most gamers wont be willing to put aside buying Modern Warfare 75 or Bioshock Infinite or whatever to spend $60 on some models they don't know how to use.
Based on the actual evidence of players coming into my store to get into 40k after playing DOW, I'd have to say your guarantee is a bit worthless.
You've got your veiwpoint from your personal experience, I have mine. Mine is attatched to running a game store 70 hours a week for a couple of decades. After selling a many dozens of starter sets to people that first got exposed to GW from video games, I'd have to disagree with you. DOW and now the new Space Marine game are great advertising for GW.
Slarg232 wrote:I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top...
Based on the actual evidence of players coming into my store to get into 40k after playing DOW, I'd have to say your guarantee is a bit worthless.
I don't think Slarg232 is too far off the mark. I used to play the Mechwarrior CCG back in the day. WotC tried cross promotion by putting CCG booster packs into one of the Mechwarrior PC games. According to some of the WotC staffers, it didn't really do much to drive players to the CCG.
Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.
Move on, other games out there need your attention.
Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?
It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?
Contrary to the guy who says he's making a living off of selling them at 3 or 4 times the price that they started out as?
GW is done. They are more interested in pushing people AWAY from the "Hobby", and in the past two years have done more for other companies then they have for themselves.
Malfaux? Whats that?
FOW? Whats that?
PP? WHO?
Other then WOTC's bang up job of peeing all over D and D? No one could have done any better to crap all over thier company flagship game systems.
Little johnny isn't going to come up into a shop, throw down 500.00 and laugh out the door happy, like they did when they first started out in the gaming world.
I remember when rhinos were three to a box. Land Raiders were 2, and confrontation, GW's IRST necromunda game had more then it's fair share of boxed unit sets that, even though they looked rough- were the dogs low hanging fruit compaired to the alternatives.
Those days are gone for GW. They are never going to come back for them either.
I am bitter at them, but I am still the guy that has pretty much a metric !@#ton of stuff from them in my posession. I gave them a year, they repaid me by peeing in our collective faces.
I've been to three other shops in this town, and 40K doesn't hold the attention that it once did. they're playing PP, firestorm, and FF games, and GW's stuff is being overstocked and looked on as a bad joke.
Yes, they might have a few shineys and lickies and chewies, but for thier prices? THESE days?
Maybe a few more store closings and price raises are going to help them get thier heads out of thier fourth points of contact while they continue to masqurade that as growth.
And to that Russia comment? You really think that they are going to make the sort of money that they were even just a few years ago? Good luck with that sort of thinking, I guess.
Grot 6 wrote:GW is done. They are more interested in pushing people AWAY from the "Hobby"
I'm sure their board meetings don't involve the managing directors presenting graphs & pie charts showing the optimum ways to push people away from miniature gaming.
I'm sure their board meetings don't involve the managing directors presenting graphs & pie charts showing the optimum ways to push people away from miniature gaming.
This is the internet... don't confuse reality with hyperbole...
happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.
Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN
We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.
Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.
People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.
SALES ARE DOWN.
Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.
I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.
Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.
I agree, I swear the antinomy of the intenet makes people into machines of uncontrollable hate. Its a bit like video games. People on the internet take video games way too seriously. If theres a bad game, they act like the video game company personally went into their home and punched them in the face or something while stealing their money. Sure you may have bought a subpar product and wasted a few hours but its nothing personal, its just business (and it could be your fault for either being impulsive, reading the wrong reviews, or reading no reviews, having no one to play with, etc). The same can be applied to wargaming. Search your options, scout out the local scene, talk to people, and ultimately decide where your funds should go.
happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.
Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN
We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.
Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.
People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.
SALES ARE DOWN.
Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.
Wow, so in a crappy economy a company that markets luxury items to folks with little disposable income has poor sales. Who would have thunk it?
I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.
Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.
I agree, I swear the antinomy of the intenet makes people into machines of uncontrollable hate. Its a bit like video games. People on the internet take video games way too seriously. If theres a bad game, they act like the video game company personally went into their home and punched them in the face or something while stealing their money. Sure you may have bought a subpar product and wasted a few hours but its nothing personal, its just business (and it could be your fault for either being impulsive, reading the wrong reviews, or reading no reviews, having no one to play with, etc). The same can be applied to wargaming. Search your options, scout out the local scene, talk to people, and ultimately decide where your funds should go.
Dont like it, dont buy it.
Yes, it is easy to point fingers and say that it is because of the internet, but the point of the matter is that the guy is P.O.'ed about his favorite game. Like it or not, some people really do WANT to play, even if GW wants to just use "Business decisions" as a basis for stupity. They didn't outright "come in and punch anyone in the face", but people are passionate and vocal fans that are being pushed in directions they honestly never wanted to go. "Oh, look!! the price rise, change to the sub-par crap, the closings of the stores, etc. have nothing to do with joe the average gamer, when they have maybe put down hard earned coin to the tune of 300+ bucks to even set foot on the board.
What happens when you DO like it, but can't keep up with some assjacks "Idea" of fun?
Bathing in the blood of sisters of battle? really? THATS fun? lickies and the chewies at 3 times the price, but do as little if less forthe army? and then you get to find out IN game?
No. some people I've found honestly believe they do not HAVE a choice, seeing as how GW's stranglehold on the collective psych does to just "average" teens and players.
People buy in to have fun, not get into the privy and lose thier shirt over a miniatures game. THATS probibly the worst part about it, too.
You can't cultivate a group when your telling people they have to throw down more and more for less and less.
You can vote with your feet, but when you don't get the choices of savy players, break ground in NEW directions, and actually jump in to something new.
Letter written by author who grossly misrepresents the average GW customer. Typical.
Finecast is better than metal was in plenty of ways, and the author clearly hasn't had a great deal of experience with it. White Dwarf is nothing less than it needs to be. I think that GWs in-store policies are normal and perfectly acceptable. I think that game support for the pickiest of players is a rather low priority for a company that primarily manufactures a hobby product - TFG is the lowest common denominator.
I'm a competitive player and I've also been playing longer than the average GW customer has been alive. I remember when it was about having a great game rather than hair-pulling about rules.
Call me a fanboy. I can think of an irrelevant and condescending title for you too. It's amazing the things people will write that they won't say to your face.
Grot 6 wrote:No. some people I've found honestly believe they do not HAVE a choice, seeing as how GW's stranglehold on the collective psych does to just "average" teens and players.
People buy in to have fun, not get into the privy and lose thier shirt over a miniatures game. THATS probibly the worst part about it, too.
The hyperbole is getting to be a bit much, brah.
A: People do have a choice. There's plenty of other miniature companies out there, and other game systems, and a whole world full of exciting ways to waste time. GW isn't the Galactic Empire.
B: Show me someone who lost their shirt because of the GW price increase, and I'll show you someone with poor money management skills.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Call me a fanboy. I can think of an irrelevant and condescending title for you too. It's amazing the things people will write that they won't say to your face.
It's amazing how many people you meet from these forums around the tournament circuit. It's not nearly as anonymous as some people think, for better or worse.
I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech. I got interested in 40k cause I liked the fluff so I picked up a AoBR set and some second hand models.
After a reading the rulebook and looking at some other products and buying some second hand models I began to realize how inaccessable this game is for most people. For instance if you want to play battletech (or any catalyst game) for the first time to see how you like it you have to spend 0 dollars. Thats right 0, just mosi on over to catalyst game labs and download the free pdf's for whatever game you want to try and it has the basic rules with cutouts of units to print out. Liek battletech? Want more? Get ready you have to spend a whole $50. The box set has 26 plastic units with the FULL rulebook and everything else you need. This isnt even takign into account the ease of accesing other products, all of which are available as pdf downloads that are cheaper than their physical counterparts.
I spent 100 bucks on AoBR and while it does have a good amount of content there is still A LOT more you need to really get into the game. I spent an extra 250 on some second hand tyranid models (basically 1000pnts) but I still need to buy the rulebook and the tyranid codex. At this point im selling my Tyranids off (breaking even) to buy some more battletech stuff and to save for the new Leviathans set which has a lot more value. Basically for that 1000pnts of tyranids im selling I can afford 29 metal mechs second hand, a new Battletech box set with 26 plastics in it and all the other goodies, and the New leviathans set when it comes out with 8 large flying battleships (3-5inch long models) and a bunch of other goodies and ill still have money left over. Im keeping my AoBR as I can play around with it with friends and keep a foot in the door so to speak but I think GW needs to really rework their business practices. There are tons of way they could increase interest in their product and increase sales while giving gamers exactly what they want.
I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.
Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.
I agree, I swear the antinomy of the intenet makes people into machines of uncontrollable hate. Its a bit like video games. People on the internet take video games way too seriously. If theres a bad game, they act like the video game company personally went into their home and punched them in the face or something while stealing their money. Sure you may have bought a subpar product and wasted a few hours but its nothing personal, its just business (and it could be your fault for either being impulsive, reading the wrong reviews, or reading no reviews, having no one to play with, etc). The same can be applied to wargaming. Search your options, scout out the local scene, talk to people, and ultimately decide where your funds should go.
Dont like it, dont buy it.
Yes, it is easy to point fingers and say that it is because of the internet, but the point of the matter is that the guy is P.O.'ed about his favorite game. Like it or not, some people really do WANT to play, even if GW wants to just use "Business decisions" as a basis for stupity. They didn't outright "come in and punch anyone in the face", but people are passionate and vocal fans that are being pushed in directions they honestly never wanted to go. "Oh, look!! the price rise, change to the sub-par crap, the closings of the stores, etc. have nothing to do with joe the average gamer, when they have maybe put down hard earned coin to the tune of 300+ bucks to even set foot on the board.
What happens when you DO like it, but can't keep up with some assjacks "Idea" of fun?
Bathing in the blood of sisters of battle? really? THATS fun? lickies and the chewies at 3 times the price, but do as little if less forthe army? and then you get to find out IN game?
No. some people I've found honestly believe they do not HAVE a choice, seeing as how GW's stranglehold on the collective psych does to just "average" teens and players.
People buy in to have fun, not get into the privy and lose thier shirt over a miniatures game. THATS probibly the worst part about it, too.
You can't cultivate a group when your telling people they have to throw down more and more for less and less.
You can vote with your feet, but when you don't get the choices of savy players, break ground in NEW directions, and actually jump in to something new.
Well I more or less already said this in a previous post about that people sometimes dont have a choice in this matter community wise. I was talking in a bit more personal scale in this case. If though there is a community fine with GW, then why have also have discussions with them? List what you like/do not like and come up with agreements or compromises to make everyone's experience enjoyable. While in a GW store this is next to impossible (and I am sorry if this is you're only option), other more relaxed areas can be flexible. Dont like constantly updated codexes? Why not stick to the older ones or fandexes such as the ones found on dakka. Have problems with rising price increases? Then be content with what you have, pool in resources with other people, use proxies, worse case scenario get a relative who visits you in case you live in Australia or something.
If you do lose your shirt from this, then maybe you need to take a chill pill and calm down about this.
Mr Mystery wrote:Question is, what do the gamers want? How do you please everyone? I'd wager it's not possible.
While its not possible to please everyone that doesnt give them an excuse not to try. Im sure everyone here know of other gaming business' that do a better job of satisfying customers than GW does.
If written in a respectable way I would agree with this letter. However, seeing as civility is something entirely absent, I highly doubt this will get past the initial reader.
bib wrote:Spelling shouldnt matter in this letter,I think they will get the jist! ha
Yes, it will. If you write GW a letter filled with grammatical and spelling errors, they're never going to take it seriously.
Once again I'll agree although really we already established this on page one!
Although I also advise not to use too many big words and droning about some allegory. That will make you come off as some type of pompous prick. A good example is this post basically bashing tournament players
Wow, so in a crappy economy a company that markets luxury items to folks with little disposable income has poor sales. Who would have thunk it?
The whole Irony of this is that that are other companies that are selling luxury items, such as Privateer Press are making a profit in these hard times!!!
This is a difference between a company that is listening to their market and one who is not.
keisukekun wrote:I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech. I got interested in 40k cause I liked the fluff so I picked up a AoBR set and some second hand models.
After a reading the rulebook and looking at some other products and buying some second hand models I began to realize how inaccessable this game is for most people. For instance if you want to play battletech (or any catalyst game) for the first time to see how you like it you have to spend 0 dollars. Thats right 0, just mosi on over to catalyst game labs and download the free pdf's for whatever game you want to try and it has the basic rules with cutouts of units to print out. Liek battletech? Want more? Get ready you have to spend a whole $50. The box set has 26 plastic units with the FULL rulebook and everything else you need. This isnt even takign into account the ease of accesing other products, all of which are available as pdf downloads that are cheaper than their physical counterparts.
I spent 100 bucks on AoBR and while it does have a good amount of content there is still A LOT more you need to really get into the game. I spent an extra 250 on some second hand tyranid models (basically 1000pnts) but I still need to buy the rulebook and the tyranid codex. At this point im selling my Tyranids off (breaking even) to buy some more battletech stuff and to save for the new Leviathans set which has a lot more value. Basically for that 1000pnts of tyranids im selling I can afford 29 metal mechs second hand, a new Battletech box set with 26 plastics in it and all the other goodies, and the New leviathans set when it comes out with 8 large flying battleships (3-5inch long models) and a bunch of other goodies and ill still have money left over. Im keeping my AoBR as I can play around with it with friends and keep a foot in the door so to speak but I think GW needs to really rework their business practices. There are tons of way they could increase interest in their product and increase sales while giving gamers exactly what they want.
Inaccessable? Do you take into account the difficulty of finding people to play battletech? It was a great game in its day, but the player base has shrunk drastically. The new guy who downloaded the rules will be lucky to find a big group of players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adam LongWalker wrote:[Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN
We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.
Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.
People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.
SALES ARE DOWN.
Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.
Having an arguement over and over might mean not everyone agrees with you, maybe? Even when you use caps and colors!
Sales are down all over, it's called a depression. It's easy to attribute sales going down to most anything, not necessarily your own personal favorites.
But before you type your return rant, can you help me with internet etiquette? Am I supposed to type in capitals, use bright red, and call you a spin-doctoring hater?
Sales are down all over, it's called a depression. It's easy to attribute sales going down to most anything, not necessarily your own personal favorites.
So, are YOUR sales down? Last I saw you were expanding your store space. PP's sales arent down either. Funny how folks like yourself trot out the depression, yet your expanding during it. Funny how PP is expanding. Paizo seems to expand......so are others. Yet the biggest monkey on the block hasnt. And hasnt in years in terms of unit sales.
CptJake wrote:
Wow, so in a crappy economy a company that markets luxury items to folks with little disposable income has poor sales. Who would have thunk it?
Not Malifaux, Infinity or Privateer Press apparently.
And just as an aside, we are not in a recession or depression by any measurement. This is also assuming that miniature gaming is a luxury good and people actively spend more on miniatures as their income increases. I usually buy enough miniatures to keep me busy--and I doubt if I came into 100k dollars tomorrow I would increase my spending on miniatures exponentially.
We do not have access to their internal production numbers but given inflation and revenues--it's not difficult to parse out the theory that sales are down substantially. You cannot attribute this to consumer spending--as other miniature lines are increasing their sales exponentially (to the point of outstripping production). If spending was truly down for the market, it would be down across the board.
However, what we are seeing is consumers shifting their funds into other miniature lines, which they (we assume) perceive is a better value. I would assume this means GW has surpassed the curve and needs to freeze or reduce their cost point. I don't think they give a gak though--I think they're going to squeeze store closures and profit margins right up until Kirby and Co. retire--then the company will sale. Which makes me sad--as I love the IP and fear what a Hasbro/Unknown company might do.
happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.
Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN
We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.
Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.
People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.
SALES ARE DOWN.
Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.
and so try another price rise to regain what they have lost...
keisukekun wrote:I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech. I got interested in 40k cause I liked the fluff so I picked up a AoBR set and some second hand models.
After a reading the rulebook and looking at some other products and buying some second hand models I began to realize how inaccessable this game is for most people. For instance if you want to play battletech (or any catalyst game) for the first time to see how you like it you have to spend 0 dollars. Thats right 0, just mosi on over to catalyst game labs and download the free pdf's for whatever game you want to try and it has the basic rules with cutouts of units to print out. Liek battletech? Want more? Get ready you have to spend a whole $50. The box set has 26 plastic units with the FULL rulebook and everything else you need. This isnt even takign into account the ease of accesing other products, all of which are available as pdf downloads that are cheaper than their physical counterparts.
I spent 100 bucks on AoBR and while it does have a good amount of content there is still A LOT more you need to really get into the game. I spent an extra 250 on some second hand tyranid models (basically 1000pnts) but I still need to buy the rulebook and the tyranid codex. At this point im selling my Tyranids off (breaking even) to buy some more battletech stuff and to save for the new Leviathans set which has a lot more value. Basically for that 1000pnts of tyranids im selling I can afford 29 metal mechs second hand, a new Battletech box set with 26 plastics in it and all the other goodies, and the New leviathans set when it comes out with 8 large flying battleships (3-5inch long models) and a bunch of other goodies and ill still have money left over. Im keeping my AoBR as I can play around with it with friends and keep a foot in the door so to speak but I think GW needs to really rework their business practices. There are tons of way they could increase interest in their product and increase sales while giving gamers exactly what they want.
Inaccessable? Do you take into account the difficulty of finding people to play battletech? It was a great game in its day, but the player base has shrunk drastically. The new guy who downloaded the rules will be lucky to find a big group of players.
By inaccessable I mean the Monetary startup costs for 40k which is much higher than other game systems.
Battletech's popularity has been on the upswing since Catalyst took the reigns. Many people say quality wise the game is better than ever and I agree. In some locations it is hard to find players and other not so hard. New battletech products are released once or twice a MONTH and all sell really well due to the accessability. Me and all the other battletech fans agree that the player base is growing and fast.
keisukekun wrote:
I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech.
This might have a bit more to do with how your opinions are formed, than with anything else.)
I tend to look at things based on reports from many different stores. Battletech may, (or may not) be growing again, but overall, the player base is much more of "I used to play back in the day" than "We have an active growing group". The major complaint I hear from Battletech players is the problem of getting old friends to play, and the lack of new players coming into the game.
It will obviously vary from store to store, but overall, it's a lot easier to find someone for a game of 40k vs battletech.
Yes. Yes it is. Or rather 4e is yet another mess that seems on the decline, while the competition(Pathfinder) is thriving and expanding. Its slightly more complicated then that, but WOTC isnt anywhere near as crappy behavior wise GW has been. Although the GSL fiasco was bad. Hasbro on the other hand, doesnt care much- D&D is never mentioned in finacial reports.
Ascalam wrote:Hasbro only bought out WOTC to get Magic, the Gathering. D and D was a side effect
Pathfinder is a far better game then 4th ed.
*nods* Yup, and most likely also when they had the pokemon license, which was huge.(of course I dont remember when the buyout was, nor when they got the license). But yeah, magic has been mentioned from time to time- D&D never.
And yes, pathfinder is a better game. But again, its paizo- which like say PP, communicates well, has a good game, and a good plan. Where as GW and WOTC's 4e seem to be on the same trajectory, downward, but for different reasons.
Ascalam wrote:Hasbro only bought out WOTC to get Magic, the Gathering. D and D was a side effect
Pathfinder is a far better game then 4th ed.
Wait really? I thought they tried to get Pokemon TGC but then after that was moved to Nintendo Hasbro was like "WoTC? yea they dont do anything compared to our My Little Pony line"
mikhaila wrote:keisukekun wrote:
I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech.
This might have a bit more to do with how your opinions are formed, than with anything else.)
I tend to look at things based on reports from many different stores. Battletech may, (or may not) be growing again, but overall, the player base is much more of "I used to play back in the day" than "We have an active growing group". The major complaint I hear from Battletech players is the problem of getting old friends to play, and the lack of new players coming into the game.
It will obviously vary from store to store, but overall, it's a lot easier to find someone for a game of 40k vs battletech.
Well I cant argue with the fact that its easier to find GW players. But battletech aside I can easily start Playing Warmachine whose prices are comparable to GW and cheaper in some cases cheaper.
Yes, warmachine is pretty much on an even level now for finding players, at least in the US. A starter set is cheaper by a lot than getting into a 40k/WFB. You never actually stay with just a starter box, but it lets you play the game, and slowly expand, vs needing a big outlay upfront. Some of the models are very cool. I'm going to be painting up the new wraith engine, just based on the model, may never put it on the board.)
What is everyone expecting GW to answer? I can feel some of the points but if someone sent me a letter writen in such a way about my products, i know what i would do... "bin, ignore email adress"
Monster Rain wrote:I played Mechwarrior, and they did me dirtier than GW ever has.
They would occasionally make entire lines of models completely useless.
Are you talking about mechwarrior dark age/age of destruction? Yeh that was a horrible game that wizkids completely screwed. Luckily Battletech is in batter hands now and MWDA was axed.
No, Slarg, GW hasn't done anything like WizKids did. They used the collectable formula to get people to keep buying plastic toys they didn't need and then started "phasing out" entire sets the way WotC did with their Magic ccg.
GW's rules are also fairer and more understandable than anything WizKids put out. Each FAQ WizKids did was one step forward, two steps backward. Ignoring us like GW does would have actually been better for us. :/
You can't expect me to take this letter seriously, I can't expect anyone on dakka to take this letter seriously. We all won't expect GW to take this letter seriously. The points are strong, but the writing is atrocious and childish.
Breotan wrote:No, Slarg, GW hasn't done anything like WizKids did. They used the collectable formula to get people to keep buying plastic toys they didn't need and then started "phasing out" entire sets the way WotC did with their Magic ccg.
GW's rules are also fairer and more understandable than anything WizKids put out. Each FAQ WizKids did was one step forward, two steps backward. Ignoring us like GW does would have actually been better for us. :/
Wow...
Wizkids were bad? I remember the time when they sold the star wars TCG pocket model game (and im still a fan of it), I can't remember if the line was discontinued though.
But is anyone listening to me, GW put a price hike to regain what they have lost, how can we win.
Breotan wrote:No, Slarg, GW hasn't done anything like WizKids did. They used the collectable formula to get people to keep buying plastic toys they didn't need and then started "phasing out" entire sets the way WotC did with their Magic ccg.
GW's rules are also fairer and more understandable than anything WizKids put out. Each FAQ WizKids did was one step forward, two steps backward. Ignoring us like GW does would have actually been better for us. :/
On top of that, you could still use Squats models for something else in a GW game, as evidenced by some of the awesome "counts as" stuff you see kicking around the net.
With the WizKids models in question, you just flat out couldn't use them anymore. Also, squats are one army. Comparing GW to WizKids would require something along the lines of "All models that were purchased between 1999 and 2006 are no longer to be used in official events." "D
His car analogy is wrong, though. A better analagy would be a car maker that made economy cars, sports cars, sedans and mini-vans but don't make SUV's or trucks. Bad news if you're a truck guy I guess.
