There has to be SOME line drawn to telling people nice job. It's one thing if those awful marines were painted by your 4 year old. But if you are old enough to post on these forums, you are old enough to take proper criticism of your work.
Personally I would rather here what I can work on rather than someone telling me that I did well. I know how well I CAN paint and I know how well I WANT to paint. I still have a ways to go.
But here it seems that some random person can post what is easily the worst paint work I've ever seen, and yet some tool says "nice job". This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.
i completely agree with you, i havent been posting here long, but i've been a reader for quite alot longer than i've been posting and i have noticed that there are quite a few threads where people tell them they've done a great job when really it would be better to tell them the truth, things like the paint is to thick and you're obscuring detail or any kind of advice is what most people are after.
If i posted up some of my minis and i just got a 'good job' reply i'd be very disappointed, i know my painting standard and i know its rubbish so i'd rather get advice to make it better.
Some people just aren't cut out for painting. Just like I'm not cut out for riding motorcycles(I can post pics of the result of me trying if you like).
wow way not to aim a post at me im not the one who said they were good i just said i spent a long time on them and also you shouldnt make fun of the special olympics
When do i stop complementing? when it was obviously a halfassed effort and is not up to the basic standards of thinning paint, priming your model, and having a basic level of brush control. Some people put up stuff (and yes, sadly they are mostly marines for some reason) that looks smeared with finger paints and should be called out on it, dakka is a great resource they clearly have access to that they have not used.
If I leave a comment I always try to provide constructive criticism along with kudos, and always hope for the same from others. As encouraging as "good job" is, it's still no more help in progressing someone's talents as "i don't like that at all". Comments like " I like your brush control and smooth coats, but that neon green and blue-gray do not look good together to me" or "I like what you were going for but the paint is a bit thick and so many colors make a distracting composition, try sticking with just the green and black with red trim." are much more helpful.
I never once aimed this at anyone. Nor did I in any way "make fun" of the special Olympics. I merely stated that everyone in them gets a medal for participating. Painting(like junior sports) should not run by the same rules reserved for the mentally handicapped.
If your brain is fully functional then the big boy rules apply.
Perhaps the dakka painting crowd are the 'nice guys'. Try posting some stupid army in lists or tactics and see how long it takes for somebody to rip you apart.
Rbb wrote:Perhaps the dakka painting crowd are the 'nice guys'. Try posting some stupid army in lists or tactics and see how long it takes for somebody to rip you apart.
I agree. Painting and List Writing should be treated the same. Both take practice and time to hone. At some point we need to be honest with people instead of encouraging efforts in the wrong direction.
Sometimes even if it looks like a 4 yr old painted it, it might be because it's the best a person can do, no matter how many tutorials they've read, how many years they've tried to improve their skill... it's the best that they can do, and they are obviously proud of their work and want to share with the community.... and you should compliment them on the nice job that they've done considering their skill level... I mean if they said they were aspiring to be Golden Demon winners, then yes, you should criticize and even say what they have is not upto snuff... but if the guy is just happy to show off his paintjob because he likes it and is looking for simple comments... don't criticize as if you were a Golden Demon judge...
No one should be proud of something they aren't good at. I don't flaunt my high school diploma and all the D's I graduated with. Granted that was mostly from being lazy and skating by, but I am not proud of it.
If your best is terrible, find something else. Have a friend or commissioner paint for you.
broadcast wrote:Sometimes even if it looks like a 4 yr old painted it, it might be because it's the best a person can do, no matter how many tutorials they've read, how many years they've tried to improve their skill... it's the best that they can do, and they are obviously proud of their work and want to share with the community.... and you should compliment them on the nice job that they've done considering their skill level... I mean if they said they were aspiring to be Golden Demon winners, then yes, you should criticize and even say what they have is not upto snuff... but if the guy is just happy to show off his paintjob because he likes it and is looking for simple comments... don't criticize as if you were a Golden Demon judge...
i agree totally if someone is proud of what they did and dont ask for criticism then dont deal it out
broadcast wrote:Sometimes even if it looks like a 4 yr old painted it, it might be because it's the best a person can do, no matter how many tutorials they've read, how many years they've tried to improve their skill... it's the best that they can do, and they are obviously proud of their work and want to share with the community.... and you should compliment them on the nice job that they've done considering their skill level... I mean if they said they were aspiring to be Golden Demon winners, then yes, you should criticize and even say what they have is not upto snuff... but if the guy is just happy to show off his paintjob because he likes it and is looking for simple comments... don't criticize as if you were a Golden Demon judge...
i agree totally if someone is proud of what they did and dont ask for criticism then dont deal it out
Fishing for compliments is something I disaprove of.
aerethan wrote:Some people just aren't cut out for painting. Just like I'm not cut out for riding motorcycles
That's bull. I don't believe you.
aerethan wrote:(I can post pics of the result of me trying if you like).
Fine. Do it. Prove me wrong.
On topic:
I agree. I always try to be positive in my constructive criticisms but, just like I won't attack someone's effort, I won't give them empty compliments.
aerethan wrote:No one should be proud of something they aren't good at. I don't flaunt my high school diploma and all the D's I graduated with. Granted that was mostly from being lazy and skating by, but I am not proud of it.
If your best is terrible, find something else. Have a friend or commissioner paint for you.
I couldn't disagree more. If your bad at painting but find enjoyment in it, KEEP PRACTICING AND GET BETTER. If someone reads every article on the web and buys every book and dvd on miniature painting, it wont make their first model a masterpiece. You have to practice and that's all there is to it.
Rbb wrote:Perhaps the dakka painting crowd are the 'nice guys'. Try posting some stupid army in lists or tactics and see how long it takes for somebody to rip you apart.
I agree. Painting and List Writing should be treated the same. Both take practice and time to hone. At some point we need to be honest with people instead of encouraging efforts in the wrong direction.
I would like to point out that even with list building, the most constructive responses are not "Dear Emperor, your list looks like the mentally handicapped took your codex, smashed it against a few models, and sneezed really hard." They are posts that take each part of the list and breaks down to why it does or does not work, what it could work better with, and where you can go using their list as a starting point.
There are also posts where people genuinely should toss the list and rethink what they're trying to accomplish. That also is best replied to in a non-derogatory manner, but coupled with a valid explanation of why. In neither of these cases are the responses "That looks great!", but they're also not discouraging.
aerethan wrote:There has to be SOME line drawn to telling people nice job. It's one thing if those awful marines were painted by your 4 year old. But if you are old enough to post on these forums, you are old enough to take proper criticism of your work.
Indeed. However, 'proper criticsm' doesn't require rudeness.
Painting for many is a very personal thing. So while criticsm for the purposes of helping people improve is welcome, it should be polite. Just pointing out that you think something is badly done accomplishes nothing other than to put down the person who did it, and can in fact serve to discourage people from trying to improve.
So, ultimately, the time to stop saying 'Nice work' is whenever you feel like not commenting.
Personally I would rather here what I can work on rather than someone telling me that I did well.
There's no reason that a comment can't include both.
^^^ WTF is up with that graphic picture of a motorcycle injury? Why did you post this here? What does it prove?
Breeezy wrote:
i agree totally if someone is proud of what they did and dont ask for criticism then dont deal it out
If you didn't want criticism you wouldn't post it on the Internet for everyone to see. Even if you're an accomplished painter, you should value negative feedback if it will help you improve. Nobody is helped by hearing "That's great!" or "That sucks!" without any accompanying critique saying why or how it's good or bad or how to make it better. The reason my painting went from middling and average to very good is because I paid attention to the critiques and criticism I was getting. Yeah, it hurts to be told your work is bad, as an artist I'm more than a little familiar with dejection. It's the only way to get better though.
There are a handful of posters in the painting forum (you know who you are) who will comment on almost every single thread with just "looks great" and move on. They'll say that whether it's a Golden Daemon winning Space Marine or a bunch of Tyranids from Hive Fleet Tankbrush who are painted with housepaint and nail polish. While it's a comforting ego boost to hear that, it's not going to help your painting. Personally though, I'd rather fight against a badly painted army than a grey horde, since it at least shows my opponent of the day is trying to embrace that aspect, my favorite aspect; of the hobby.
aerethan wrote:No one should be proud of something they aren't good at.
They can be proud of trying something new. They can be proud of improvement, even if they still have a ways to go. They can be proud of sharing something into which they have poured their time and effort.
'Good' is rather subjective. There's no reason to put someone down just because your personal 'good' is different to theirs.
I'm not saying to give negative feedback. But saying "nice job" isn't helping anyone to improve. I realize I'm an ass, especially about this. I'm fine with that and generally I leave well enough alone.
aerethan wrote:Perhaps it is because painting is my main hobby that I get somewhat peeved when someone posts something terrible and then are complimented on it.
People are spending good money on their models, and it pains me to see them painted with the tank brush as SRM said.
Perhaps you should worry less about what others do with their money and their models and more about what you do with yours. I can't fathom why you would get peeved that somebody whose work isn't up to your standard gets complemented for their work.
Brother SRM wrote:^^^ WTF is up with that graphic picture of a motorcycle injury? Why did you post this here? What does it prove?
Breeezy wrote:
i agree totally if someone is proud of what they did and dont ask for criticism then dont deal it out
If you didn't want criticism you wouldn't post it on the Internet for everyone to see. Even if you're an accomplished painter, you should value negative feedback if it will help you improve. Nobody is helped by hearing "That's great!" or "That sucks!" without any accompanying critique saying why or how it's good or bad or how to make it better. The reason my painting went from middling and average to very good is because I paid attention to the critiques and criticism I was getting. Yeah, it hurts to be told your work is bad, as an artist I'm more than a little familiar with dejection. It's the only way to get better though.
There are a handful of posters in the painting forum (you know who you are) who will comment on almost every single thread with just "looks great" and move on. They'll say that whether it's a Golden Daemon winning Space Marine or a bunch of Tyranids from Hive Fleet Tankbrush who are painted with housepaint and nail polish. While it's a comforting ego boost to hear that, it's not going to help your painting. Personally though, I'd rather fight against a badly painted army than a grey horde, since it at least shows my opponent of the day is trying to embrace that aspect, my favorite aspect; of the hobby.
i dont mind if someone criticises my work but when they go out of their way not only to be rude about it but post an entire topic on it thats when it gets annoying
I agree 100% with Aerethan. On a spriting forum I was a member on, it was a tough environment. Complements were earned, not given out. Criticism was rare. Even a sincere insult is criticism. If someone tells you it sucks, then it sucks. Figure out how to make it better. Granted, we are more polite on this board so I know that wont happen. But still, People posting should EXPECT criticism on their armies, not compliments.
Breeezy wrote:
i dont mind if someone criticises my work but when they go out of their way not only to be rude about it but post an entire topic on it thats when it gets annoying
To be fair, you could have just sent this to him as a PM instead of saying you're the sole reason he started this thread. I do share the OP's thoughts on this matter, even though I wasn't thinking of making a thread about it. Please though, work on your grammar. If you just capitalize letters and use punctuation, people will take your posts a lot more seriously.
Breeezy, aerethan said that this thread is in response to people posting poorly painted figures getting complemented for their work. I believe him. The thread I believe you're trying to reference is that terrible swap shop thread that looks very much like an obvious troll thread.
A person to learn from is Gordon Ramsey. Having just watched all of Kitchen Nightmares, he had 1 major rule to business owners, and I think the same should go for painters. Don't listen to all the positive feedback as all it does is inflate your ego. Listen to the negatives, as they are the ONLY place where you learn what to improve.
I absolutely agree that patting someone on the back over a piece of garbage is anything but helpful. It gives the person false illusions of their skill level and can prohibit them from improving every bit as much as discouraging, negative feedback would. I'm all for constructive criticism, but these comments of "Great job!" and "Nicely done!" are...painful to view when the miniature is in no way deserving of the praise. Plus, as I said, they aren't helpful--very few people are going to attempt to improve if they've been told they're doin' great right where they're at.
Oh, and Breezy, you actually did claim your miniatures were pro-painted...jussayin.
Dark_Omen wrote:
Oh, and Breezy, you actually did claim your miniatures were pro-painted...jussayin.
Come to think of it, that's probably what started me on this whole thing, having just done a little ebay search for pro painted models that made me lol.
I understand to a point what you mean Aerethan, but I do some work with kids that involves art activities.
I always praise them, especially if they are reluctant in the first place. I tend to be more critical of the kids that have a good innate ability to try and get them to push themselves.
But often kids will say, "I can't draw." What they genearlly lack is self confidence as much as ability. Encouragement means they are less reluctant to have a go next time. They will never become a Titian, but then again, sadly, neither will I. But I will still encourage them to do the best they can and accept their level of achievemnt given their ability.
By continuing to paint people will improve, as Dais I think said. No one improves or gains anything by giving up and letting someone else do it for them.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I understand to a point what you mean Aerethan, but I do some work with kids that involves art activities.
I always praise them, especially if they are reluctant in the first place. I tend to be more critical of the kids that have a good innate ability to try and get them to push themselves.
But often kids will say, "I can't draw." What they genearlly lack is self confidence as much as ability. Encouragement means they are less reluctant to have a go next time.
They will never become a Titian, but then again, sadly, neither will I. But I will still encourage them to do the best they can and accept their level of achievemnt given their ability.
By continuing to paint people will improve, as Dais I think said. No one improves or gains anything by giving up and letting someone else do it for them.
Pretty much the expanded and over-all better version of what I said! : D
Dark_Omen wrote:I absolutely agree that patting someone on the back over a piece of garbage is anything but helpful. It gives the person false illusions of their skill level and can prohibit them from improving every bit as much as discouraging, negative feedback would. I'm all for constructive criticism, but these comments of "Great job!" and "Nicely done!" are...painful to view when the miniature is in no way deserving of the praise. Plus, as I said, they aren't helpful--very few people are going to attempt to improve if they've been told they're doin' great right where they're at.
I agree with you there, no sense in saying that, BUT if the painter is new to the hobby or has put all he can into it, you can say "Nice job, I can see what you're trying to do, BUT, if you would like them to look better, try doing this/not doing that..." which is a lot better than just "Nice job" which just lets the painter think they've done everything right and don't need to improve their skill or "It sucks, do it this way" which just discourages them.
I was using it as an analogy, but some of the painters are young.
The other point is that not everyone is the same. Whether you think they should be tough enough to take the knocks, some people are more sensitive than others. Praise works better than the stick.
It should not be a hard thing for someone mature enough to post to simply ignore the (meaningless) "good job" comments.
aerethan wrote:But we aren't children. As I said, if you are old enough to post here then you are old enough to take proper criticism.
Whilst what Chibi said was about experience with kids, it applies just as well to everyone, especially those of the mollycoddled generations. A lot of education is being criticised for creating young people and adults who enter the world fueled by praise. From the time kids can understand basic English, they're showered with praise. In nursery, kids are overprotected and told just how good they all are. In school, this is the same, priase comes thick and fast, because unhappy kids means unhappy parents, and unhappy parents means complaints, and complaints mean lower leaderboard rankings for schools, and we can't have that, oh no, Jim's painting of a turtle-that-looks-suspiciously-like-a-green-blob-prodded-with-a-brush is just as good as Gemma-the-gifted-child's turtle-that-is-instantly-recognisable-as-a-turtle!
Not a harsh word or criticism can be spoken without parents, eager to find out why their precious son is being victimised by the teaching staff for their slower learning ability, lodging furious complaints and all that gak.
This inevitably leads to people who live off praise. People find work and get layed into by their boss for doing something wrong, and they can't cope. They just haven't really experienced criticism before-constructive or otherwise.
Age doesn't automatically decide someone's ability to take criticism, and the generations of people going through the educational systems only go to prove it. If anything, by the time they reach maturity and had the bubblewrap cut away, they're lost without it.
Easing people into something is vastly more effective than lashing out with the flawed justification of them being grown up enough to take it. As a writer, I know that I couldn't take the criticism I recieve now if I was taking a few years ago. Only by learning from what was said by people who encouraged me whilst giving me helpful tips and detailing why I shouldn't do things and how to rectify errors, was I able to accept harsher criticism. There were points where someone would lay into me like a frenzied murderer with a knife, and I have to say it killed my spirit. A novice at anything would be reluctant to try again if some of the stuff that was said about my early work was aimed at them; mean doesn't even begin to describe it.
Trying to force a beginner to get better by criticisng their work as if it was meant to be a Golden Demon entry does nothing for them, and only works against your goal; the greatest harm can result from the best intentions.
I know somebody that has a nerve injury in their right arm, and while you can tell that he has trouble painting, the colors go where they're supposed to and the models are recognizable.
I'm all for encouragement but if your "Blood Angels" army looks like you vomited blood all over unprimed Space Marines don't expect automatic praise.
What I got from the OP was...'whine whine blah blah whine troll, troll".
It's good to be honest about someone's work, but at the same time you shouldn't be so harsh in the fact that you find yourself discouraging people from the hobby. Obviously there are people who have a long way to go, and others who have been here for a while. I myself have posted some pretty bad miniatures when I first started here on Dakka Dakka, and though I didn't know it at that point, they were terrible, though everyone here gave me great criticism and a welcoming hand.
Now I'm not about to win any Golden Demons, but in time I realized myself that I needed to get better, and that my miniatures just weren't really all that good.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is no reason to go off on a rant about someone's paint job and be completely honest, just nudge them in the right direciton, we don't need any **** 'round on Dakka.
aerethan wrote:A person to learn from is Gordon Ramsey. Having just watched all of Kitchen Nightmares, he had 1 major rule to business owners, and I think the same should go for painters. Don't listen to all the positive feedback as all it does is inflate your ego. Listen to the negatives, as they are the ONLY place where you learn what to improve.
Here's a little situation that I have had to witness on MULTIPLE occasions, that I think is very similar....
I have been tattooing for more than 25 years. I like to think that I am pretty good at it, and I have a ton of loyal clients and trophies that help back up that assumption. In the coarse of my career, I have, on occasion, been persuaded to take on apprentices who would like to learn the trade. Some of them kept their egos in check and are currently doing very well for themselves. However, there have also been more than a few who let their 'friends' tell them how great thier work was, allowed their egos to get the best of them and decided, quite prematurely, that they were 'ready for the big leagues'! Most of them didn't last a month. The couple that made it through the first few months, have both told me (years later) that they wished they hadn't listened & had seen the apprenticeship through to the end.
The tattoo industry will chew you up & spit you out without blinking an eye. If you say you can do it, you had better be able to back it ALL up. '
The painting forums might not be on the same level as my chosen industry, but I think the same train of thought still applies. If someone posts a pic of something that is not up to par, rather than giving praise where it is obviously not deserved and taking the chance that complacency might set in, a bit of well worded criticism would not only be more appropriate, but in the long run, more appreciated.
I happen to COMPLETELY agree with the OP on this one.
I think it's just common courtesy, really. When someone says, "Hey," your response shouldn't exactly be " you,," even if you don't like the person, unless you're some asperger's case.
Speaking of honest criticism, though, that oversized sig graphic with nothing but your name plastered in pink combined with the avatar graphic that was spammed on my screen relentlessly while reading this thread is god awful and makes my eyes want to bleed.
Zen2k wrote:I think it's just common courtesy, really. When someone says, "Hey," your response shouldn't exactly be " you,," even if you don't like the person, unless you're some asperger's case.
Speaking of honest criticism, though, that oversized sig graphic with nothing but your name plastered in pink combined with the avatar graphic that was spammed on my screen relentlessly while reading this thread is god awful and makes my eyes want to bleed.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Zen
Aerethan's sig has bugger all to do with the thread topic
Would suggest that you edit your post to remove the inflammatory remark.
Thank you
Proof that while we can disagree on things we can remain civil.
I'll admit that I started the thread in a fit of passionate rage. The point still stands not to coddle those who clearly need proper criticism and not empty praise.
Saying "Good work" to someone encourages them to paint. However I normally follow up with some advice like thin these paints, add a wash or highlight. Just telling someone that their work is bad discourages them from painting.
Also I don't think there is such thing as a poorly painted miniature. A mini is a work of art and not all people are good as each other. However the time when you straight up tell someone that their army sucks is if they put three dots of different color paint on a marine's shoulder pad to make them "tourney legal." As long as they put effort, a good work is fine.
At first i thought OP was a little in the wrong but looked before i leapt and took a walk through P&M and the painting forums, now i'm gonna have to say i agree with him. This thread may make your eyes bleed but some paint jobs make my eyes bleed and then people compliment it. If it were my blog i'd expect criticism, if you don't get any how will you every improve.
Also i agree massively with the praise and children rant, it's unbeleivably true! The TFG at my LGS is like 17 and he's spoilt as, got a forgeworld keeper of secrets(the huge one) from mummy and daddy, yet he sulks and never wants to play you again if he loses. It's the same principle with painting, get no criticism, then someone with some nads tells you it could be improved and they sulk and whinge.
OP's point wasn't about attacking the artist with 'It sucks' or 'It's rubbish' it's about constructive criticism, which in turn helps the artist.
Imagine if the wright bros didn't get any feedback from the first plane, they go home thinking it's the bees knees and planes never advance past that because they did a 'good job' so everyone must be happy with it.
What is wrong with encouraging people? If they have just started painting, imagine all the replies of people pointing out mistakes, and how you would feel. Personally if i got all "pointers" i'd start thinking grey armies were a good idea. Painting in no way should ever be criticised like list building, painting takes time, list building takes a couple of minutes looking at a book.
I'm starting to think that geeks not being able to encourage people without sticking a negative in there, is why geeks don't play team sports .
Every website I have ever posted photos of finished products up, from armoring to modeling, I've always been starting out, I ask for the criticism so I can improve. Not everyone does that, if they post up a garbage mini, but don't ask it's pretty simple, keep your mouth shut if you can't find a single positive thing to say. If they do ask, give advice in a way that doesn't make you come off a pretentious neckbeard living in his parents house. Just be polite.
Saying something equivalent to "This model sucks, give up now" is doing the hobby no good, that person isn't going to improve, neither are the people who are lurking the thread, if anything it's going to spook them off of posting their own work so we keep seeing the same train wreck armies in the FLGS, because they have never gotten that input.
But I do agree with OP partially, if something is a giant blob of pain and glue, don't lie and tell them great job, look for something done well, otherwise if you happen to know why it's jacked up (thick paint, to much glue, wrong paint type, ect) point out how they can fix it. If they don't want to listen to the advice and refuse to take the criticism, then just ignore the thread, that person isn't going to listen anyway but by tearing them down those newbies reading that thread are going to think "Well screw putting my work up if this is how Dakka is going to respond".
The phrase "If you haven't got anything nice to say" springs to mind...
The point at which I stop saying 'nice work', is usually when a work fails to blow me away completely with its pure god-like awesomeness (It happens more than you might think). But there is a big difference between not leaving any comment, and leaving a negative comment.
Positive encouragement is often more helpful than brutal honesty. Despite what people might say, very few of them are actually looking for "constructive criticism". For most people, all they really want is some approval and recognition for all their hard work. You might be surprised how much a few kind words of encouragement could mean to someone. For us (the viewers), we get to see lots of other people's awesome collections that took them ages, so it's a fair trade.
Of course there are always a few people who are less interested in seeing cool stuff, and encouraging others, and more interested in trying to make themselves seem important by making others feel small. But those guys are douche bags, don't be one of those guys. If you don't like someone's work, then you don't have to look at it, and you certainly don't have to comment on it. If you feel someone is getting recognition they don't deserve, Rather than wasting your time deriding them, go help out someone who you think does deserve recognition. If you want to help someone improve, then help them. If you're not sure how to help them, then don't discourage them by telling them that they are hopeless. Leave them be, someone else might know just what advice they need.
Smacks wrote: Despite what people might say, very few of them are actually looking for "constructive criticism". For most people, all they really want is some approval and recognition for all their hard work.
my painting is table top quality........Ive posted my pics up plenty of times........its great to get feedback.......but......just as great job is useless and i dont like that is useless so isnt just a plain out well you need to do this this and this to make them better..........I have a Degree in Creative Studies (works well with teaching) long story short they teach you to tell them what you like, what is wrong, and how it can be fixed..........but you have to rember that some things are truly subject to opinion and should be avoided (ex. pink and purple marines) even though they might truly be an eyesore it is there creativity and stomping it can make one less person in this hobby
10-12-year olds aren't an uncommon sight on the boards, since that's the age that a lot of kids are getting into the game.
I started the hobby when I was 15. You know what I did then? I went online(which was still a rather small place at the time) and found my local fantasy group. When I showed up with my models, I looked at everyone else's models and asked how I could get my painting up to snuff. I didn't ask them if they thought my painting was good, because I immediately knew that I was years away from being at the standard they were at. No one said how nice my models looked, they were honest. Paint was thick, my linework needed improvement, and my mold lines were terrible.
I sought out ways to improve, I yearned for criticism. And at just 15.
Kids quite often need careful handling to avoid being discouraged by criticism. Hell, a lot of adults quite often need careful handling to avoid being discouraged by criticism.
Offering a bit of encouragement costs nothing. By all means, back it up with some suggestions on how to improve, but you'll ultimately get better results more often with praise and encouragement than you will by just telloing somewhat that what they are doing is crap and needs to be improved.
And using your own standard as a baseline of what is 'good'? I don't even know where to start with what's wrong with that idea.
I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."
insaniak wrote:And using your own standard as a baseline of what is 'good'? I don't even know where to start with what's wrong with that idea.
Heh well said! The story reminded me a lot actually of the whole cycle of abuse idea. "When I was your age I was beaten in school, how dare you kids today have it so easy" /bitterness
Tronbot2600 wrote:Let me try and put this in perspective.
You are painting teeny tiny toy soldiers...
If I know someone really put in time and effort, I will always throw him a "nice job"
If you are so offended by someone's lack of painting skills you might need to reevaluate things.
Agreed.
Although, to be fair, I think OP may be knee-jerking in response to a possible troll.
OT: I was a terribad painter when I started (as if anyone springs fully formed from the Emperor's head ready to win a GD), and I didn't need people to tell me that. Most people know their work is bad-- if they're posting it on the intrawebs, it's most likely to solicit support for painting that they don't get locally (i.e., no hobby store nearby, etc..) and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I was lucky to have a friend that was a great painter/artistic type show me the basics-- my painting is still far from good, but, at least, it's good from far, which is to say, a decent tabletop standard.
TL;DR- Coddle people online, but give pointers, too. Might be all the support they have for the hobby.
aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
I never said you were using your models. I said you were using your standard. Based on this comment:
aerethan wrote:Perhaps it is because painting is my main hobby that I get somewhat peeved when someone posts something terrible and then are complimented on it.
What did you mean by that, if not that you don't thinkg that someone should receive praise if their work doesn't meet your definition of what is good?
Tronbot2600 wrote:Let me try and put this in perspective.
You are painting teeny tiny toy soldiers...
If I know someone really put in time and effort, I will always throw him a "nice job"
If you are so offended by someone's lack of painting skills you might need to reevaluate things.
I don't think it's so much being "offended" by someones lack of painting skills , I believe it's more of a sense of "false praise" ...
If a mini looks as though the person who painted it didn't even try and just slopped paint around...then saying " Nice job" is jut that..it's false praise.
Now, saying " good effort" followed by some constructive criticism ,IMO, would be the best way to respond in these situations....or...don't respond at all.
I agree, although sometimes I'll just post good job (though, that's when I can't think of anything more to add to it). Basically it's along the same lines as just saying "your work sucks". The reason being neither give you an accurate idea of where you stand in terms of skill and in which areas you can improve. When people do post proper criticism the point is to read it and think about it a bit in order to improve further if not to spark new ideas for future projects.
Taking offence in constructive criticism is looking into it too much, not realising it's there to actually help out.
aerethan wrote:Again, the painter isn't where the complaint is. It's the people coddling those painters who need to improve.
This is the equivalent of telling someone that they, "suck at video games" or that they, "really need to work on their paddle-ball skills."
Painting miniatures is a silly hobby skill. If someone is content with the way they paint, far be it from me to chastise them because their miniatures aren't up to my standards.
This is the equivalent of telling someone that they, "suck at video games" or that they, "really need to work on their paddle-ball skills."
Painting miniatures is a silly hobby skill. If someone is content with the way they paint, far be it from me to chastise them because their miniatures aren't up to my standards.
Yes, but when someone posts their pictures, asks for comments BUT ONLY POSITIVE ONES and sticks their fingers in their ears and starts humming whenever a dissenting opinion or bit of legitimate advice comes up, then we have a separate problem.
aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
I never said you were using your models. I said you were using your standard. Based on this comment:
aerethan wrote:Perhaps it is because painting is my main hobby that I get somewhat peeved when someone posts something terrible and then are complimented on it.
What did you mean by that, if not that you don't thinkg that someone should receive praise if their work doesn't meet your definition of what is good?
Point taken. I was upset at the time I said that. You are right. However some things are undeniably terrible.
Brother SRM wrote:Yes, but when someone posts their pictures, asks for comments BUT ONLY POSITIVE ONES and sticks their fingers in their ears and starts humming whenever a dissenting opinion or bit of legitimate advice comes up, then we have a separate problem.
Do we?
If someone is happy with the standard of their work, and posts it not to learn to improve but instead just to share something that they love doing with others, where is the problem?
Tronbot2600 wrote:
This is the equivalent of telling someone that they, "suck at video games" or that they, "really need to work on their paddle-ball skills."
Painting miniatures is a silly hobby skill. If someone is content with the way they paint, far be it from me to chastise them because their miniatures aren't up to my standards.
Well, there's a fundamental difference in that people are posting these in an online forum. Feedback is a GIVEN in that environment. OP seems to be calling for feedback for (subjectively) bad painters that consists of more meat than "Good jorb!"
Brother SRM wrote:
Yes, but when someone posts their pictures, asks for comments BUT ONLY POSITIVE ONES and sticks their fingers in their ears and starts humming whenever a dissenting opinion or bit of legitimate advice comes up, then we have a separate problem.
kartofelkopf wrote:
Well, there's a fundamental difference in that people are posting these in an online forum. Feedback is a GIVEN in that environment. OP seems to be calling for feedback for (subjectively) bad painters that consists of more meat than "Good jorb!"
insaniak wrote:
If someone is happy with the standard of their work, and posts it not to learn to improve but instead just to share something that they love doing with others, where is the problem?
Well, it's an unrealistic expectation. I like dakka because it's a generally pleasant place to be/post/read. But, it's still a subsection of the Internets, and expecting people to NOT comment on something you post is naive.
It also leads to a strange slippery slope from an enforcement perspective-- if modmins decide that that type of thread is acceptable (i.e., "Here's my ugly Ork Looted Leman Russ, no negative comments") [based on the first model I painted, incidentally], then does that mean that ANY thread OP can ask that no one disagrees with them in-thread and have that be an enforceable position?
And, if it's not enforced, then there's no remedy for negative criticism, so long as it doesn't violate Rule #1.
insaniak wrote:
If someone is happy with the standard of their work, and posts it not to learn to improve but instead just to share something that they love doing with others, where is the problem?
Well, it's an unrealistic expectation. I like dakka because it's a generally pleasant place to be/post/read. But, it's still a subsection of the Internets, and expecting people to NOT comment on something you post is naive.
It also leads to a strange slippery slope from an enforcement perspective-- if modmins decide that that type of thread is acceptable (i.e., "Here's my ugly Ork Looted Leman Russ, no negative comments") [based on the first model I painted, incidentally], then does that mean that ANY thread OP can ask that no one disagrees with them in-thread and have that be an enforceable position?
And, if it's not enforced, then there's no remedy for negative criticism, so long as it doesn't violate Rule #1.
In that case, no one is allowed to disagree with me in this thread!!! jk jk. To each their own.
Monster Rain wrote:I see a lot of constructive criticism given on this forum.
You don't have to say "You suck at painting" to let someone know that their models could use some improvement.
Exactly, there is no need to berate someone due to lack of painting skills, but by that same rational, there is no reason to trip over oneself to pile on praise...
I see nothing wrong with a statement like " It's a nice try...but you might want to try using thinner layers of paint/ washes/ not painting with your feet ( )"
If a person doesn't want honest feed back...the why ask for comments?
I'm not saying that a 'no negative comments' policy should be enforced.
I was merely questioning the claim that someone not wanting feedback on how to improve is somehow a problem.
People will only learn if they want to. If someone asks for people to not leave negative comments, what's the problem with just closing the thread and moving on if you have nothing constructive to post?
Is it really that big a deal if someone on the other side of the planet has models that arent painted to as high a stadard as he himself might think they are?
When I see someone posting pics of figs that are.....could be alot better....
Instead of weilding the Hammer of the Tactless and telling them their figs looks like they we done with finger paints and rolled in dog poo to flock the bases- I tell them what simple things I think they could do to improve the appearance.
This gives them the opportunity to continue to learn/excel, and hopefully make for fewer eyesore minis.
Personally, I think this is a bigger problem for conversions than for painting. I think we've all seen the 'dipped in glue and rolled in bitz' style of conversions. People do some really regrettable things to otherwise nice minis...
Another factor I try to work in- some people just dont have the vast array of painting and modelling tools available to complete a top tier job. That being said- Ive seen the posts of the guys that made entire rhinos, land raiders and leman russes out of nothing more than cereal boxes and pva glue.
If someone makes an honest effort- compliment them for that. If the results are lacking, show them the way to more skills & knowledge. If they were obviously lazy about it- call them lazy and get on with your day
insaniak wrote:I'm not saying that a 'no negative comments' policy should be enforced.
I was merely questioning the claim that someone not wanting feedback on how to improve is somehow a problem.
People will only learn if they want to. If someone asks for people to not leave negative comments, what's the problem with just closing the thread and moving on if you have nothing constructive to post?
Is it really that big a deal if someone on the other side of the planet has models that arent painted to as high a stadard as he himself might think they are?
Absolutely not...
And if an OP specificlly asked for no negative feed back...and one has nothing positive to say...click off the image and move on.
...But, if an OP ask for C&C, then C&C should be given...no need to be rude and say " Dude you suck"...but also no need to say " Great Job" when what you mean is "needs work".
I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't. This is tempered a bit by the status of the OP (new painter/hobbyist or a not-annoying child). If I absolutely can't find anything redeemable about the mini then I generally don't comment unless the OP is way off base regarding his/her own work's quality (like using the dreaded "pro painted" for something that clearly isn't). If the later is true and the OP is completely misguided, I'll instead post pics of minis from the gallery that truely deserve the adjective that they're (mis)using and let the OP see the difference for themselves. Generally, seeing something that IS "pro painted" side by side with what is just claiming to be is enough.
warboss wrote:I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't.
I'll often do the same, although as a personal choice I actually start with the suggestions, and try to finish with something positive about the miniature. It's a minor difference, but leaves the criticism feeling overall much more positive to the recipient.
warboss wrote:I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't.
I'll often do the same, although as a personal choice I actually start with the suggestions, and try to finish with something positive about the miniature. It's a minor difference, but leaves the criticism feeling overall much more positive to the recipient.
Possibly... I've always thought that starting out with a nicety tends to soften the blow a bit more.
I used to post a lot art forums. I think I've had more than my fair share of praise and criticism. There is good and bad with both. Praise is nice and helps to keep you motivated, some praise feels empty. If I had £1 for every time someone posted the exact words "keep up the good work" I would probably have enough to get quite drunk.
I found criticism to be double edged too, even when it was all constructive. I think the best kind of criticism was people telling you what you 'could' do to improve your work. The most irritating was people telling you what you 'should have done'. Even though it was meant as help, it doesn't really add anything but the feeling of disappointment at knowing it's too late to change. Also things that you should have done differently are usually obvious enough that you don't really need someone pointing them out to you.
Oddly, some of the comments I found most thought provoking were actually not meant as criticisms. Often they were compliments which ended up be inadvertently backhanded. Like people saying something like "I love your style it's so cartoony..." oh yeah? Screw you jerkass! I was going for photo-realism!
One thing I did notice was that praise does work, it doesn't work fast, but it does work. I've seen people who were just diabolical, and they where diabolical for years, and never seemed to make any improvement. But we kept patting them on the back and telling them "keep up the good work" (groan). And so they did. And eventually... They did get better, and some of them are actually quite accomplished now. I've also seen really talented people get really disheartened by snide remarks and even vow never to draw or paint again. It made me think a lot about my own responsibilities as a commentator of other peoples work.
insaniak wrote:
warboss wrote:I always try to find SOMETHING that I like and can comment about in a post for a P&M thread. Even if the majority of the mini is crap, I'll start out by pointing out that something that was done right and then proceed to politely comment about what wasn't.
I'll often do the same, although as a personal choice I actually start with the suggestions, and try to finish with something positive about the miniature. It's a minor difference, but leaves the criticism feeling overall much more positive to the recipient.
I read that the best way to do it was the 'compliment sandwich'. You start with something positive, mention the bit that sucks, then end with something positive.
Though my personal favourite method of constructive criticism is to try and draw attention to an area by asking questions about it, and then let the person arrive at their own conclusions about what they could 'perhaps' have done better there. I like that because it doesn't require being negative at all, and people like ideas more when they believe that the ideas are their own.
It's not hard to say "I see you're working really hard on these, for improvements I'd suggest..." and go from there. Criticism doesn't need to be rude and quite the opposite is usually more effective.
I haven't read all of this thread, but when I say 'Nice Job' I'm not instantly saying their painting is good. I say that because I like seeing some paint on a model instead of bare plastic/basecoat. Also, I think good painting comes with practice not with reading tips from the internet (ofcourse they might help, but they don't make you paint like GD winners). So I rather encourage the painter to paint more than to critisize him/her.
I actually recorded a segment in a recent episode of the Precinct Omega HobbyCast that covered the constructive use of forums for miniatures painters. I also recommended the "compliment sandwich" (good expression).
Having said that, "good job" is not completely worthless. Even a recorded "view" with no comment isn't completely worthless. If someone took the time to look at your thread but didn't comment, then you at least know that the thread title is attractive. If someone took the effort to post even a minimal comment then that is, in itself, a compliment.
I paint professionally, but many of my threads get no comments at all or very few. I don't need to be told I'm good at painting, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate knowing that someone enjoyed looking at my work.
ah the interwebz... biggest collection of miscommunicated verbiage ever...
If someone posts pics without asking for feedback, and they get a perceived negative comment (for some you should read the last 3 words again) then the onus is on the OP to handle it. They can't control what's being said unless they specifically outline what they want as a response (which then makes them responsible for how they handle the answer one way or the other). If they don't know how to handle it they could probably learn how... (but i'm not getting into that now... will be here all evening)
Having said that though, IF they post and ask for feedback, here is one technique to provide it in a useful way... it's called a 'feedback sandwich' (or feedback sammich... mmmm tasty)
1. Give them something positive (and it doesn't have to relate to the paint job)
2. Provide the critique
3. Finish with positive
ie..
"Hey cool, i like the colour selection (positive), just keep up the practice with the lining in (feedback), though overall it's coming along (positive)". Notice you don't have to specifically point out the crap paint job, but something pertaining to the mini might actually work (like the colour scheme)...
If it's so bad you wouldn't even wish it upon your worst enemy, don't post anything, have a cold one and use some eye drops...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also recommended the "compliment sandwich" (good expression).
There does need to be a point where honest criticism could be given, but the problem is that there's no common standard on which to base it. Yes, there's the Golden Demon standard, but not everyone wants their models to look like that. Some gamers want their armies to be tabletop ready, which is a very different thing.
So what do you do? Be entirely clear at the start when posting pics, and get appropriate (one hopes!) responses? Or go for: "Looks great for tabletop, but if you want Golden Demon quality you could try x, y, z?".
Criticism is always hard to hear, even if you're expecting it, and some people will be able to use it, and some people won't - that's for them to decide. One thing that I was taught at Uni, and I've used ever since in my classes, is that you're criticising the WORK, not the PERSON. Criticising artwork of any kind tocuhes on the ego because you put something of yourself in your work, but there's a vast difference between saying a piece of work is low-standard and saying the same thing of a person.
The 'why' is also important - saying something sucks is useless. Saying it sucks because of x, y, z is more constructive - especially if you can say a good way of saying it!
There's a difference in the CMON crowd of painters 'look at this uber squad' or the 'uber' army that is done by a professional artist. Most of us aren't professional artists.
It's a bit like porn, they generally all look great but your average real woman does not look like that. Boobs tend not to defy gravity that much etc.
I'm bad at art. I'm a scientist and I'm married. I have a life outside of 40k so when I get painting time I want to get my armies painted efficiently but reasonably nice. I generally get complemented on my *army* as its often the only fully painted army being fielded where I play. Sure the uber painter guy has a nice HQ.. but the rest of his army is grey!
Dakka is a large community and not everyone has the same standards.
For someone who can barely put a space marine together and doesn't paint at all a slapdash paintjob with thick paint that doesn't keep within the lines can be a "good job".
For those who can understand when a miniature has been painted to a very good standard using a variety of techniques and an interesting colour palette the words "good job" may be absolutely heartfelt and meant as a way of complimenting the painter because they want to leave a comment but haven't got the knowledge to add anything more constructive or enlightening.
It's subjective and therefore always open to interpretation.
If I see a horrorshow in the Showcase forum I close and move on, I compliment those bits of work that I do find well painted, but it's all just my opinion of what's good and what's not.
Honestly that way I got better was through negative feedback, as once I got it I did not want to get it again, so I thinned my paints and practiced and now I help friends with their models. I agree with the OP that sometimes tough love is really what a new or untrained painter needs.
The thing that bothers me the most about the comments in the P and M section is not that people give compliments freely, but rather the way people seem to pussyfoot around giving criticism. The worst perpetrator: "your paint looks a little thick", "try thinning your paint", "try mixing your paint with water before applying it". This has become the default comment for poor work. There is a real push on this board to be polite and that is a good thing. There is no need to be rude, but people should feel free to bullet point all the things lacking in a particular piece of work. If the poster doesn't want to hear people's honest opinions, don't post. If the model looks awful, people should feel free to make comments as direct as "I really don't like how this is painted because..." or "I think you need to make more of an effort to get this to tabletop standard because..." rather than "Try thinning your paint". The latter comment may be true, but if you simply present that as your comment the poster may be inclined to believe that water + paint is the answer to their painting woes (when in reality they need perhaps 5 years of trial and error, for example). While saying a positive as a preface to a negative is nice, I don't think people should refrain from cutting to the heart of the matter.
I conjecture that criticism of poor painting and will lead to improvement faster than encouragement of the same.
Why bother about these "nice job" get by others ? Do you think this devaluate your own work or the quality of feedbacks on it ?
If you disagree about some painting skills, techniques or whatever, you can post on your own in concerned thread ?
I am a very bad painter (Edit for next post : Ya, I am a bit too much impatient ! But I agree with the fact that practice is the way to go ). I don't even think about posting pics of my miniatures on Internet because there is no point on it. But I want to be able to say "Nice job" to those who are a little better than me if I like what they are doing, even if they are far far faaaaaaar away of skilled hobbyist.
That doesn't means I can't evaluate the difference between a very good painter and an average/still practicing one.
Each comment is up to the one posting it. It's really only a mater of point-of-view, I suppose.
precinctomega wrote:I actually recorded a segment in a recent episode of the Precinct Omega HobbyCast that covered the constructive use of forums for miniatures painters. I also recommended the "compliment sandwich" (good expression).
That's one way of putting it, I'm more familiar with the term "s**t sandwich, packing a bit of bad news between two bits of good news.
Anyway I know where the OP is coming from. I generally dislike dishonesty so if I don't want to give false praise and can't think of much new to say I generally skip a thread. I'll often leave it to others to give the standard advice for new painters. Give encouragement and genuine advice, don't be destructive and rude. There's enough non-painters in this hobby without undermining those making the effort.
I think the idea that some 'fish for compliments' is a little overstated. But I do see it on occasion, someone will put up something that is not very good at all, and when it is pointed out to them even in the nicest terms they become very defensive, even aggressive, either because they are deluded as the to quality of their work (they were hoping it would be a GD contender) or think they had a right only to expect compliments. I won't give specific examples because to do that or link to images of other people's work as a demonstration of 'bad painting' is not very nice at all, keep criticism of people's work in the threads where they ask for feedback, dragging it out elsewhere in the forum uninvited is trolling/bullying.
aerethan wrote:Some people just aren't cut out for painting. Just like I'm not cut out for riding motorcycles(I can post pics of the result of me trying if you like).
Not true IMO, unless you have a disability affecting eyesight or motor control pretty much anyone can reach a reasonable proficiency with practice and effort. I think people who paint dreadfully and declare they just can't paint are mostly impatient and unwilling to invest the time and effort required. Maybe this is related to the thing some are describing where people are heaped with praise from a young age and come to expect good results from things quickly. I consider myself a good painter, I'll never win a GD but my work is good. I didn't get there overnight, most good painters are not magically talented.
I have criticized, judged hundreds of miniatures and even organized some painting comps and I'm not shy to speak my mind about something... so you probably assume I agree with the OP... but on most of his claims I cannot agree with him.
In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.
Thats real life but the internet is a completely different beast!
Here you don't have eye to eye contact, you don't know age and you cant figure out what's going on the other side... the only thing left is politeness and thats why people SHOULD be a bit more polite online and thats why many comments are just expressing politeness and motivational paragraphs and thats much better than empty threads.
Is there room for picky comments online? Yes! I do them all the time... to people I know online for several years, on private forums, chats, PM's etc... People I know that are interested genuinely on improving by ideas confrontation etc.
Thats it... Online be polite when posting about someone ( you don't know) personal expression on a determined hobby.
I didn't want to quote many kind of arrogant sentences from the OP but I would like to just quote one that slide under the radar.
aerethan wrote:No one should be proud of something they aren't good at. I don't flaunt my high school diploma and all the D's I graduated with. Granted that was mostly from being lazy and skating by, but I am not proud of it.
If your best is terrible, find something else. Have a friend or commissioner paint for you.
Who are you to decide what is Good and What people should be proud off?
And if your best is terrible GTFO????
I cannot compute the line of thinking and I just smell hatred.
For all it takes I could consider your painting level crap and you should also GTFO! See what I did here? Not cool is it?
NAVARRO wrote:I have criticized, judged hundreds of miniatures and even organized some painting comps and I'm not shy to speak my mind about something... so you probably assume I agree with the OP... but on most of his claims I cannot agree with him.
In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.
I think that the higher the standard of painting the more picky the criticism can afford to be because they need fine adjustments not general painting practice. The greater the quality on display the more they will get out of a precise critique and it's unlikely they will be discouraged if their work has a few problems pointed out. If someone painting to a high standard can't handle genuine feedback of their work they aren't asking for a critique for fine improvement, they are just showing off their work. They don't need praise to boost confidence as much as a beginner who needs a little encouragement coupled with some basic guidance.
I have seen threads where something excellent is on display and many just say "wow" but the person that makes criticism is shouted down... that misses the point.
Personally, I find it best to just not comment at all if I really think it's that bad not just painting and modelling, but with everything. If it really is at the bottom of the barrel, then simple practice will improve a person a lot. Once they've got a handle on the basics, then you can go on to say "I like this, but that could use some work". If the painter can't handle that, they shouldn't be on the interwebz beginner or no, being told where you can improve is not a bad thing...
And I pretty much agree with the OP - when even I know what could use improving on a mini, I cannot abide it when no one seems to want to offer advice or point this out a comment of 'nice job' is completely, singularly unhelpful. Tell someone what you like about it, tell someone what you don't like about it, do pretty much anything except post just two copy-pasted words about it...
NAVARRO wrote:I have criticized, judged hundreds of miniatures and even organized some painting comps and I'm not shy to speak my mind about something... so you probably assume I agree with the OP... but on most of his claims I cannot agree with him.
In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.
I think that the higher the standard of painting the more picky the criticism can afford to be because they need fine adjustments not general painting practice. The greater the quality on display the more they will get out of a precise critique and it's unlikely they will be discouraged if their work has a few problems pointed out. If someone painting to a high standard can't handle genuine feedback of their work they aren't asking for a critique for fine improvement, they are just showing off their work. They don't need praise to boost confidence as much as a beginner who needs a little encouragement coupled with some basic guidance.
I have seen threads where something excellent is on display and many just say "wow" but the person that makes criticism is shouted down... that misses the point.
Believe me many competent painters CANT handle ANY critiques ( nuts I know) it all boils down to each ones background... But yes in theory a newcomer should be cuddled much more than a pro.
I have seen those threads also its called fanbase and sometimes they interfere between honest feedback/ artist improvement .
There's much intolerance in this little hobby the only thing we can do is try to learn and try to share what we know politely.
If I'm at a tournament, I always find something to compliment about my opponents army. Sometimes I have to stretch though.
If they're badly painted, i'll say 'nice colour scheme'
If the colour scheme is horrible, i'll say 'I really like the pose on that hero he really looks dynamic'
If they have only primed the army, I'll say 'wow, I really like the coherent look of your army'...
Trasvi wrote:If I'm at a tournament, I always find something to compliment about my opponents army. Sometimes I have to stretch though.
If they're badly painted, i'll say 'nice colour scheme'
If the colour scheme is horrible, i'll say 'I really like the pose on that hero he really looks dynamic'
If they have only primed the army, I'll say 'wow, I really like the coherent look of your army'...
"You lose with grace and dignity."
"You take models off the table in a really stylish way."
Trasvi wrote:If I'm at a tournament, I always find something to compliment about my opponents army. Sometimes I have to stretch though.
If they're badly painted, i'll say 'nice colour scheme'
If the colour scheme is horrible, i'll say 'I really like the pose on that hero he really looks dynamic'
If they have only primed the army, I'll say 'wow, I really like the coherent look of your army'...
"You lose with grace and dignity."
"You take models off the table in a really stylish way."
"You throw the best pie plates"
"I wish I got to roll for so many saves"
"Out of all the power armour I've seen today, your's has to be the best"
Toastedandy wrote:If I see a mini which looks like it is obviously someones first paint job, I will purposefully find something to compliment, and maybe help.
Everyone starts somewhere, and being elitist as to the quality that should be posted doesn't help the hobby.
But people posting "nice job", "I like it" or "Nice" should be shot for spam most foul.
We should be nice, but nice isn't necessarily pussy-footing. We should be trying to help each other. I know the threads with the awesome minis (Roleplayers, Gitsplittas etc) look amazing and we all go 'wow'. But then some of us are human and not carring the gene-seed of the emperor (in terms of painting). It can be demoralising to post up a decent set of minis and for no comments to happen. Yet if something is terrible then it needs to be said - so that the painter can improve. I think constructive criticism is the best approach - not 'your minis are feth ugly, paint better n00b' but more 'have you actually tried drybrushing? >link to tutorial<' or 'next time try and make the eyes yellow instead of beige'
People are good at different parts of painting. I'm really bad at colour selection. I find it hard to figure out what to paint things so I have to research it. Others can just do it naturally. I need to check a chart to make sure that my blood angels should have red bodies, yellow eyes and green purity seals with blue for energy. Some people know that red+green go well, blue pops against red and yellow compliments red. I don't (well I didn't!)
aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."
You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap
I was thinking of posting up pics of my table-ready Marines.
It'll be something to compare against when I get to Golden Deamon standard
Nothing is a waste of plastic, if the paint comes off.
A rough start is still a start, and better than the hordes of plastic-coloured plastic a lot of people bring to the table. At least you know what figure is what.
When someone posts a poorly painted miniature in the painting show-off area, I look at what they post.
Do they say "Comments/feedback, please!" or "What do you think?" They are asking for feedback at that point.
If so, then politely provide constructive feedback. "You should prime your miniatures before you paint so that it holds the paint better." "A wash or highlight on the face/cloak would make a world of difference." and so on.
Do they say "Isn't this awesome?" The best reply is to probably stick with the above answer.
In fact, even if they don't ask for feedback, shouldn't we all assume that if a person shares their work then they are asking for feedback? Otherwise, what is the point of posting a painted miniature/terrain/whatever on a public discussion forum dedicated to tiny painted army mens?
I completly disagree with the route the OP is taking.
If somone isn't the best painter, no one should be telling them their model is terrible.
At least they painted it, and if they took the time to post it on the forum, they at least tried some.
Is it that hard in these days to give a compliment and advice in the same to help them improve ?
Oh your Necrons look terrible, the paint is on to thick.
instead of.
Its a great start, but the paint is a bit thick and try this and that next time.
There is a polite way to do things, then a wrong way.
If your going to comment on somones paint job that you think is sub par, to me, give advice in a nice way, or don't post at all. I thought gaming and paint forums were meant to be a helpful resource ?
I know I'm not the best painter in the world but I do try and shade,highlight and blend colours and I appreciate peoples suggestions on how to improve.
aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."
You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap
aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."
You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap
I thought your models were metal, so the correct phrase would be a waste of metal ...
In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.
Thats real life but the internet is a completely different beast!
Here you don't have eye to eye contact, you don't know age and you cant figure out what's going on the other side... the only thing left is politeness and thats why people SHOULD be a bit more polite online and thats why many comments are just expressing politeness and motivational paragraphs and thats much better than empty threads.
+1
I so wanted to mention this but just took a deep breath instead. Forums like this communicate less than 10% of what's really being said...how do we truly know the motive of the OP when they post the pics?
The reason people get so sore about this is because when someone is beyond help or needs so much advice you dont know where to begin some people put "nice job" just to be encouraging. which is fine really...
Then your decent/good minis when you post get critisized, which is also fine because you generally want to know what to do better anyway and its helpful (somtimes)...
put these two things in context of eachother, however, and you get... "OMG that guy is rubbish and people is saying well done and mine is quite good and people are saying what is wrong with my models! ahhhhhhh!"
Now that is actually quite annoying if your having a bad day. If i got nothing to offer, i just click next thread. Simples.
Spyder68 wrote:I completly disagree with the route the OP is taking.
If somone isn't the best painter, no one should be telling them their model is terrible.
At least they painted it, and if they took the time to post it on the forum, they at least tried some.
Is it that hard in these days to give a compliment and advice in the same to help them improve ?
Oh your Necrons look terrible, the paint is on to thick.
instead of.
Its a great start, but the paint is a bit thick and try this and that next time.
There is a polite way to do things, then a wrong way.
If your going to comment on somones paint job that you think is sub par, to me, give advice in a nice way, or don't post at all. I thought gaming and paint forums were meant to be a helpful resource ?
Oh yea.. this is the interwebz... nvm!
This right here. I disagree with OP, honestly it seems like a very angry mentality to have.
Does it really bother you that people get compliments on something that isn't up to your standard? How does it affect you at all?
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arkapello wrote:
put these two things in context of eachother and you get... "OMG that guy is rubbish and people is saying well done and mine is quite good and people are saying thing what is wrong with my models! ahhhhhhh!"
There is a difference between saying "wow that is a nice model" and "good first attempt". I think the OP is taking the comments out of context. When I say well done to a new painter or someone who struggles to paint it's in that context. If i was comparing it to a GD model in the same sale i would say it was a bad model but i'm not. Different levels of painting have different scales when I come to judging them.
Spyder68 wrote:I completly disagree with the route the OP is taking.
If somone isn't the best painter, no one should be telling them their model is terrible.
At least they painted it, and if they took the time to post it on the forum, they at least tried some.
Is it that hard in these days to give a compliment and advice in the same to help them improve ?
Oh your Necrons look terrible, the paint is on to thick.
instead of.
Its a great start, but the paint is a bit thick and try this and that next time.
There is a polite way to do things, then a wrong way.
If your going to comment on somones paint job that you think is sub par, to me, give advice in a nice way, or don't post at all. I thought gaming and paint forums were meant to be a helpful resource ?
Oh yea.. this is the interwebz... nvm!
I agree with this; if someone isn't the best of painters I would rather give advice on how to improve rather then telling them there model is rubbish.
aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.
And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."
You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap
I thought your models were metal, so the correct phrase would be a waste of metal ...
You cannot waste metal models... they strip easily, comapred to GW plastics
The way things have been cultured here on Dakka has always been to applaud effort and add helpful tips for the future. It's never ok to completely attack a model, but to give tips on the next rung of the ladder they need to be reaching for the next time they pick up the brush is always helpful. Tact is always the most important part of helping another poster understand the direction you are trying to aim them.
It's never ok to just berate effort in any of the Dakka modeling forums. But to pick out one or two things they might try for the future, possibly with links to help guide them would be acceptable. And that's without the addition of a 'good job/good try'.
Saying something along the lines of "Next model, try a thinning your paints a little akin to this LINK. Brush control will also go a long way to helping your paint scheme tighten up. Here's a video on working on brush control you might want to check out LINK."
In that I never told them their paint scheme was a good job, didn't say they made a good effort. But I also didn't berate the poster for taking the time to share their work. If someone is posting on the forums it's likely that they are looking to learn something, especially when they aren't posting the highest quality work. They don't just want pats on the head.
Insults and put downs will never EVER be tolerated here.
I don't think that "nice job" is akin to getting a Golden Demon Trophy. As far as compliments go, "nice" is pretty mild praise. Plus everyone has a different standard.
I'd rather have a chance to see some newly painted models here and there even if they're not all Golden Demon Winners. I like getting compliments for my models when I post pics - even though they are fairly average by anyone's standards.
For some people, just GETTING them painted is an accomplishment! Right? Like the guy who's been playing against me for four years with all unpainted stuff. You can bet I'll give him a "nice job" if he gets some of them painted... even if I've seen better work in my day!
I'm not saying to tell people that their painting is crap. I'm simply stating that empty compliments on paintjobs that obviously need major improvement are counter productive to criticism.
Everyone got this impression that I hate bad paintjobs(or at least what I consider to be bad paintjobs more specifically). I have no problem with people who are just learning how to paint or have given it honest effort and posted their results. It's people telling them more or less that there is nothing to improve on.
I'm not the greatest painter. Been doing it for years, and I can honestly say that it's decent. However every time I post pics I ask for criticism on it so that I find ways to improve the next model. All I care about is how to get better. I'm not saying everyone should be like me. At the same time we shouldn't be coddling people into a false sense of accomplishment.
Hate me if you want, I really am not worried about that. But understand at least where I am coming from. THE PAINTER IS NOT THE BAD GUY HERE.
I understand where you're coming from Aerethan. What I like to do is pick one specific individual whose painting just downright shocks me that they consider it 'good' and try to shepherd them through improvement.
One-on-one advice with someone who actually wants to learn is the key here. I try to do the same with fluff as well.
One can be critical of painting methods without being critical of the painter. Its not hard. Note methods that can be used to improve X and Y. Then quit commenting.
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J'santai Khan wrote:
aerethan wrote:A person to learn from is Gordon Ramsey. Having just watched all of Kitchen Nightmares, he had 1 major rule to business owners, and I think the same should go for painters. Don't listen to all the positive feedback as all it does is inflate your ego. Listen to the negatives, as they are the ONLY place where you learn what to improve.
Here's a little situation that I have had to witness on MULTIPLE occasions, that I think is very similar....
I have been tattooing for more than 25 years. I like to think that I am pretty good at it, and I have a ton of loyal clients and trophies that help back up that assumption. In the coarse of my career, I have, on occasion, been persuaded to take on apprentices who would like to learn the trade. Some of them kept their egos in check and are currently doing very well for themselves. However, there have also been more than a few who let their 'friends' tell them how great thier work was, allowed their egos to get the best of them and decided, quite prematurely, that they were 'ready for the big leagues'! Most of them didn't last a month. The couple that made it through the first few months, have both told me (years later) that they wished they hadn't listened & had seen the apprenticeship through to the end.
The tattoo industry will chew you up & spit you out without blinking an eye. If you say you can do it, you had better be able to back it ALL up. '
The painting forums might not be on the same level as my chosen industry, but I think the same train of thought still applies. If someone posts a pic of something that is not up to par, rather than giving praise where it is obviously not deserved and taking the chance that complacency might set in, a bit of well worded criticism would not only be more appropriate, but in the long run, more appreciated.
I happen to COMPLETELY agree with the OP on this one.
The difference of course is that one is a business, the other is something to kill time until you die.
I Agree with the OP, don't post something nice, if the paintjob / conversion / work of art is not good.
People are either posting pics to get feedback to be better, or hollow praise.
I started in the gaming hobby at 8 years old, now at 35 I can paint to a decent tabletop quality that alot of people praise. However I generaly think that most of my paintjobs are GAK. This is mostly because my close gaming buddies are true talented artists, One is a schooled comic book artist that has, one paints museum displays, and the third has no formal training but easily outshines the three of us combined, and could win Golden Demon level contests if he would ever call a miniature finished and enter it.
When I show them a figure I expect the truth, and positive suggestions to get better.
I run multiple retail sales locations and I can tell you that most people when giving them feedback using the Positive-opportunity-Positive or sandwich method, they often do not hear what they need to work on. Our society has coddled us way to long. We need to be honest and firm, no reason to be mean to others.
Personally I would rather see an apocalypse sized army of grey plastic and shiny metal across the board, instead of 95% of the armies I have paired up against in my gaming career.
Quotes from my lecturers while doing my Graphic Design degree (collected by the whole class for our final exhibition):
"Do it my way and do it now"
"Who's designing this, me or you?"
"Less red!"
"More red!"
"Listen to that little voice in your head. Mine's telling me... "
"I find your tantrums a tad challenging"
"Are you sure that's the image you want to project?"
"Are we going to argue over colours?"
"If there were a design police, you'd be arrested."
"Is this a last minute job?"
"By this stage you should know better"
"Okay, we'll wait until the class next door goes all quiet then we'll make heaps of noise..."
"That's good. For a rough."
"Never use that green again"
And from one of my classes:
Me: [looking at a student's work in progress] That's a really horrible font
Student A: it's cute!
Me: No, it's just hideous
Student B: I'd rather punch myself in the face than look at it!
The point being: sometimes you have to tell it how it is.
BUT - as several others have pointed out - context is important. In a class, or a face to face meeting, it's easier because you can use tone, and (hopefully) you know the person and where they're coming from; but on the internet, what you see is what you get, and anonymous comments sometimes go astray. I'm afraid, that you'll just have to deal with it - you have to be prepared for good comments and bad. If you don't like the bad comments, ignore them, or don't post in the first place.
finnan wrote:Quotes from my lecturers while doing my Graphic Design degree (collected by the whole class for our final exhibition):
"Do it my way and do it now"
"Who's designing this, me or you?"
"Less red!"
"More red!"
"Listen to that little voice in your head. Mine's telling me... "
"I find your tantrums a tad challenging"
"Are you sure that's the image you want to project?"
"Are we going to argue over colours?"
"If there were a design police, you'd be arrested."
"Is this a last minute job?"
"By this stage you should know better"
"Okay, we'll wait until the class next door goes all quiet then we'll make heaps of noise..."
"That's good. For a rough."
"Never use that green again"
And from one of my classes:
Me: [looking at a student's work in progress] That's a really horrible font
Student A: it's cute!
Me: No, it's just hideous
Student B: I'd rather punch myself in the face than look at it!
The point being: sometimes you have to tell it how it is.
BUT - as several others have pointed out - context is important. In a class, or a face to face meeting, it's easier because you can use tone, and (hopefully) you know the person and where they're coming from; but on the internet, what you see is what you get, and anonymous comments sometimes go astray. I'm afraid, that you'll just have to deal with it - you have to be prepared for good comments and bad. If you don't like the bad comments, ignore them, or don't post in the first place.
These sound like quotes from people who have extremely small lives.
There is a hefty difference between a college course where you expect your professor to tell it exactly as it is and not always in the most positive manner, and our humble forum where rule #1 is being polite.
Simple solution- just keep your mouth shut. I generally don't post in the painting and modeling section because if I don't have anything nice to say I don't say anything. That doesn't mean don't criticize, it just means do it nicely and applaud the effort if not the results.
while I don't disagree with the thought, because we all have it internally, what I disagree with is discouragement.
in the Air Force, I learned really fast how to say "you're an asshat, go eff yourself" but it sounded more like "with all due respect, I believe that it is prudent that we obtain input from other members of the team for this project."
instead of telling people that "your stuff sucks", maybe include how they could improve it?
and it might "suck" to you, but they can be quite proud of it. and thats a sure fire way to ruin our hobby. its already filled with asshat eliteists, and it needs to stop.
just say (as many have already said) nice attempt bro, here is a great article for improving your skills. take a look at it.
I love how on Dakka you can't ever be nice for the sake of being nice. If you're complimenting someone on a job that isn't a GD quality job, you must be limiting their potential somehow.
Maybe, just maybe, while YOU may not like it, OTHERS like it. If you'd like criticisms, there's tons of people who would be perfectly willing to hand them out.
Like you said Aerethan, some people aren't made to ride motorcycles. Well then, some people weren't made to paint. But maybe they love the game, or the background, but if they can't paint then it's Dakka's job to tell them that they either have to get better or stop?
Cryonicleech wrote:I love how on Dakka you can't ever be nice for the sake of being nice. If you're complimenting someone on a job that isn't a GD quality job, you must be limiting their potential somehow.
Maybe, just maybe, while YOU may not like it, OTHERS like it. If you'd like criticisms, there's tons of people who would be perfectly willing to hand them out.
Like you said Aerethan, some people aren't made to ride motorcycles. Well then, some people weren't made to paint. But maybe they love the game, or the background, but if they can't paint then it's Dakka's job to tell them that they either have to get better or stop?
Pffft, the egos these days.
as a rider, I tend to take this one to heart i'm not a racer, i'm not all that fast, but I love to ride. been riding for 12 years now. and I ride at a good pace, but I am no Hayden.
same for warhammer, I love to paint, but I am no GD painter. my work is IMHO, adequate, but nothing special. and i'm ok with that.
but perhaps those of us that aren't great at what we do, also like the thrill of improving. even the GD winners didn't get there over night. its what makes a hobby a hobby. something you can enjoy, and improve to.
Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.
Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.
Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...
Or just act like human beings and have a shred of common courtesy for your fellow posters.
There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism but there is everything wrong in being an arse to someone and dressing it up as 'telling it like it is'. If you can't engage with someone in a reasoned and friendly manner and offer tips/advice without being rude, then don't post at all. Move on to another thread.
Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.
Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...
it has been my observation that adults do not exist on the internet, only adult aged children. I mean lets face it here, we all paint little figures and play games. has to be some kid in us somewhere. and i'm almost 31
its really just respect. all around respect. much love fellow gamers.
Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.
Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...
You can post the nicest criticism in the world, giving praise in one hand whilst pointing out things to be done better with the other hand.
Some people(kids and adults both) cannot take criticism. They are too vested in their ideas and their own ego that they view constructive criticism as "trolling" or "flaming".
You cannot just say that it's "people needing to act like adults and control ourselves better when posting". If people cannot take criticisms, then they have no business showcasing their work on the internet in Painting & Modeling.
Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.
Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...
it has been my observation that adults do not exist on the internet, only adult aged children. I mean lets face it here, we all paint little figures and play games. has to be some kid in us somewhere. and i'm almost 31
its really just respect. all around respect. much love fellow gamers.
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Kanluwen wrote:
Troy wrote:
Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.
Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...
You can post the nicest criticism in the world, giving praise in one hand whilst pointing out things to be done better with the other hand.
Some people(kids and adults both) cannot take criticism. They are too vested in their ideas and their own ego that they view constructive criticism as "trolling" or "flaming".
You cannot just say that it's "people needing to act like adults and control ourselves better when posting". If people cannot take criticisms, then they have no business showcasing their work on the internet in Painting & Modeling.
Of course, what you call a criticism, others might call an invitation to the dance.
I think it is important to be positive. While i never really comment on painting. I think its appropriate to say, "good Job" you could improve on X,Y & Z. People are much more likely to listen to you if it doesn't sound like you are attaching them.
Also, Its best support people painting. I have rarely seen a situation where someones painting was worse than bare metal.
The way I see it Warhammer is split into three parts, gaming, painting/modeling, and community. Obviously all three intersect at some level and we need to understand that. When I am gaming I would rather play a nice person that has a painted army than a person without either. When I am painting I would like for people to see that I am at least trying. While I don't win best painted at tournaments, from four feet away my models look nice.
This whole post is dedicated to the idea of perspective. The OP is coming from the perspective that we paint models for the sake of painting and so no compliments or nice job should be given if the model does not look fantastic. However, what if we come at painting from a gaming perspective? Would you rather play a grey army that hasn't been primed or an army that has paint on it? even if its thick. Or how about from a community perspective? Perhaps when people are posting they are less trying to say look at my work, and more look at me! I want to be a part of this community.
Painting is not the most fun of tasks for most of us. I would bet that most people paint their armies just for play. In my humble opinion any painting is good painting and deserves a nice job.
I was raised to give a good compliment for every bad compliment. It helps even it out that way so you don't come off like a total ass, or overbearingly nice. When I post my pictures or WIPs on here, I expect others to point out the flaws and things I should work on. But I also like to hear nice things along with it.
I definitely agree with not rubbing people's bellies just because they can't paint well. Encouraging them to practice certain techniques is probably a lot nicer (and productive).
Howard A Treesong wrote:I think that the higher the standard of painting the more picky the criticism can afford to be because they need fine adjustments not general painting practice. The greater the quality on display the more they will get out of a precise critique and it's unlikely they will be discouraged if their work has a few problems pointed out.
This is why I've trended more, recently, towards commenting in the P&M threads of painters of good or higher caliber, who are more likely to benefit from a bit of specific constructive criticism. It's not that more novice painters couldn't benefit from the same treatment, but I tire of giving the same advice, ad nauseum, so I leave it to others. The atmosphere in many of those threads isn't to my liking, either, partly because of the coddling.
There was a thread a little while ago about adding guidelines to the Dakka gallery voting scale that contains a lot of the same general opinions as this thread. I was all for it, because I'm the type that wants to improve and consider criticism a means to that end - I want my DakkaDakka to be a tool for useful, if occasionally somewhat harsh, feedback as much as a resource for creative ideas. Others just want a pat on the back. Since this isn't (and will never be) my DakkaDakka, I simply leave those alone before I get all cranky 'bout kids these days (unless I'm already particularly cranky, in which case I'm not immune to the occasional rant, though I think I succeed at following Rule #1).
There are always exceptions to this, of course, depending on my mood. When I do comment on sub-par models, I soften the criticism with a bit of praise, even if I sometimes feel a bit dirty doing so, because that's the way things work, whether I think it's necessary and beneficial or not. I don't consider it worth the pissing and moaning about being a big meanie, most of the time (speaking generally, here - Dakka P&M isn't the only place where this issue arises). The point at which I have to really stretch to praise even the effort is the point at which I simply refuse to comment, at least on the model, itself (I can and will occasionally divert and address a previous comment, so I can put out what I think to be worthwhile info without bruising any baby-egos, if they seem to be present).
I don't know, i think it could be a problem as the OP says but i don't think we're there yet on Dakka. I agree that coddling helps no one but it would be truly a shame if even one person didn't post something that they needed feedback on for fear of getting mocked or torn down.
Generally i stay stay pretty positive unless someone is specifically asking for critique then i will oblige them honestly and constructively. Most of the time i simply don't feel comfortable or qualified to nit pick peoples work without knowing what there circumstances are.
At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
/popcorn
Indeed.
This isn't a case of "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". You can criticize someone without being rude or berating them, but if someone doesn't want to be helped, they have no business posting it on the internet--especially on a Painting & Modeling forum.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
/popcorn
Indeed.
This isn't a case of "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". You can criticize someone without being rude or berating them, but if someone doesn't want to be helped, they have no business posting it on the internet--especially on a Painting & Modeling forum.
I can't believe I agree 100% with Kan. Well said sir.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
/popcorn
I get it but i still think that is worthwhile to treat it similarly. People that would get a big head from a couple of anonymous interweb people saying good job are probably the same that aren't going to respond well to criticism anyways. People who want to improve Ive found will generally disregard the empty feedback and urge people to be more critical.
I see no point in telling someone that their painting is crap unless they say "Let me know if it's crap." I am a tabletop level painter. I do not have the time or talent to be anything more. If I see a bad paint job I would offer pointers on how to improve based on my limited knowledge. I will always applause any attempt to paint an army. I rather see a craptacular paint job than the grey army of doom(bare plastic). Effort should be encouraged, not discouraged. Remember this is a Hobby.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
/popcorn
We are. We just disagree with you.
Yes, because empty praise results in a brilliant evolution of the hobby.
$pider wrote:I see no point in reading even the two posts above mine. I do not have the time to read this thread. If I see a thread I would offer the same tired argument only tangentially related to the topic based on my limited knowledge.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
/popcorn
We are. We just disagree with you.
Yes, because empty praise results in a brilliant evolution of the hobby.
Mmm, sarcasm, the hallmark of the troll.
Its not either or. One can do both.
But, as the OP started out with such witicisms as " yet some tool says "nice job," its kind of no surprise there's a bit of disagreement.
Note: The OP did not state this was limited to the P&M Forum.
There has to be SOME line drawn to telling people nice job. It's one thing if those awful marines were painted by your 4 year old. But if you are old enough to post on these forums, you are old enough to take proper criticism of your work.
Personally I would rather here what I can work on rather than someone telling me that I did well. I know how well I CAN paint and I know how well I WANT to paint. I still have a ways to go.
But here it seems that some random person can post what is easily the worst paint work I've ever seen, and yet some tool says "nice job". This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.
aerethan wrote:Some people just aren't cut out for painting. Just like I'm not cut out for riding motorcycles(I can post pics of the result of me trying if you like).
While this is true, the gaming hobby is more than just the modeling aspect. If top notch painting becomes a requirement the hobby will suffer, falter, and possibly fail. There are many people who are good players who bring fun to the hobby that cant paint very well, and if told they have to will find other things to do and other places to spend their money.
Remember this...its just a game. The only thing that actually required (by WYSIWYG rules) is that models are properly assembled. The only thing that paint really does is to make them look good.
Im all for well painted minis, but get real. IMO people who run around with the attitude "all minis must be Golden Demon standard or they dont belong on the table" are terrible.
aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.
No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.
/popcorn
We are. We just disagree with you.
Yes, because empty praise results in a brilliant evolution of the hobby.
Mmm, sarcasm, the hallmark of the troll.
I'm surprised it took you this long to start slinging around the 'T-word'.
Its not either or. One can do both.
You can't give criticism while giving empty compliments. The whole point of Aerethan saying "empty compliments" is because there is a disturbing trend of people complimenting paint jobs that really should be deconstructed and criticism doled out along with advice. There is no reason for those paint jobs to be complimented, even if it is the person's first time. They're not coming on here and posting their work to get the kind of "criticism" they'd get from their parents. They're, whether they want it or not, going to get criticism from people who have experience in the hobby they're working in.
But, as the OP started out with such witicisms as " yet some tool says "nice job," its kind of no surprise there's a bit of disagreement.
Yes. He shouldn't have said "tool". That doesn't make his point any less valid.
Note: The OP did not state this was limited to the P&M Forum.
There has to be SOME line drawn to telling people nice job. It's one thing if those awful marines were painted by your 4 year old. But if you are old enough to post on these forums, you are old enough to take proper criticism of your work.
Personally I would rather here what I can work on rather than someone telling me that I did well. I know how well I CAN paint and I know how well I WANT to paint. I still have a ways to go.
But here it seems that some random person can post what is easily the worst paint work I've ever seen, and yet some tool says "nice job". This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.
Where else do people post their painted models? The P&M subsection. Whether it be in Blogs, Showcase, or P&M proper--it's all Painting & Modeling.
Mad4Minis wrote:While this is true, the gaming hobby is more than just the modeling aspect. If top notch painting becomes a requirement the hobby will suffer, falter, and possibly fail. There are many people who are good players who bring fun to the hobby that cant paint very well, and if told they have to will find other things to do and other places to spend their money.
Nobody is saying "YOU MUST PAINT TO THIS STANDARD! ANY WORSE AND YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED!". Some people can't paint whether it be due to some kind of physical disability or something of that nature, but they're not the ones who Aerethan is talking about. He's talking about people complimenting paintjobs that, in reality, should be receiving tips and links towards how to improve.
You cannot fix a problem if you do not know there is one. Posts like "They look nice " do not help a person who has put up their first model that looks atrocious, even by tabletop standards.
Posts like "You have a clear grasp as to a color scheme you want, but your paints are a bit thick and do not look like you're allowing them to properly set before adding another color." or "You've selected Dark Eldar for your first army, which is awesome. More non-Astartes armies are fantastic! However, it does look like you just brushed the paint straight onto the bare plastic. I'd advise you to take some Simple Green(readily available at Lowe's Home Improvement or many grocery/auto stores) and strip the paint off, then go back and prime the models first." do help that person, however.
How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."
or posts like this:
Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!
or
I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.
How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."
Are you seriously not comprehending this?
This entire thread is about empty compliments. Telling someone "Nice job" isn't necessarily "an empty compliment". "Empty compliments" are compliments that are given with no reason to praise the piece in question.
or posts like this:
Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!
or
I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.
aerethan wrote: This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.
Just an FYI since you seem to be ignorant of the facts:
You do realize that ALL athletes in both the Special Olympics and the standard olympics receive "participation medals" that are a keepsake given to all the athletes, officials, coaches, volunteers, etc?
These are not given as rewards for competing itself.
Special Olympics athletes compete for placement medals (Gold, Silverm Bronze, etc.) just like traditional Olympic athletes. many of them are dedicated and hard working athletes who train year round and take their sports very seriously. They have to earn those gold medals in heavily governed and competative sporting events, and thus not all competators medal in the events they compete in.
So maybe you might want to use a different analogy for your rant, because your comments are offensive at worse and ignorant at best...
How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."
Are you seriously not comprehending this?
This entire thread is about empty compliments. Telling someone "Nice job" isn't necessarily "an empty compliment". "Empty compliments" are compliments that are given with no reason to praise the piece in question.
or posts like this:
Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!
or
I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.
The admins and moderators receive on average around 1,200 complaints of various kinds per week.
We record and classify these into broad categories in order to track what sort of things are worrying people and help guide changes and improvements to the site.
To put things in perspective, here are the aggregated stats for the past six months, in ascending order.
Inappropriate sexual, scatology and swearing 1%
Sock puppets 2%
IP violations (various) 3%
Personal rudeness 3%
Misc or unclassified 3%
Racism and other “isms” 5%
Bad grammar, L33tspeke, speling, etc. 9%
Thread Necronisation 9%
Wrong Forum (my pet hate) 12%
Commenting that a model is “nice” when it isn’t 53%
I hope you can see from this what a serious problem people replying “nice job” to a “not nice job” really is!
Please, only post “nice job” if the job is, in objective fact, “nice”.
How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."
Are you seriously not comprehending this?
This entire thread is about empty compliments. Telling someone "Nice job" isn't necessarily "an empty compliment". "Empty compliments" are compliments that are given with no reason to praise the piece in question.
or posts like this:
Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!
or
I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.
So you picked a good model to showcase criticism? Okay.
Let's compare that to this:
looking good
Overall, the rest of the thread compliments the poster for their Skaven(which do, in fact, look better than that Rhino or the other Marine related stuff the OP has. The Skaven however are not immune to criticism either)--and yet someone still simply posts "looking good" about that tank and a Dreadnought posted that looks very similar in terms of the paint.
Being a professional Nice Guy myself I try to give constructive feedback on the pictures I view on Dakka. Even people who are odviously a lot more talented than myself, If I spot something that looks Hinky to me or maybe something the original poster has missed. The point is we don't have to be a douche-bag about it. Constructive critisisum should be taken as such, douche-baggery should be dealt with accordingly
$pider wrote:I see no point in reading even the two posts above mine. I do not have the time to read this thread. If I see a thread I would offer the same tired argument only tangentially related to the topic based on my limited knowledge.
Not sure where your going with this, but if you look at the timelines of the posts above mine, and take into consideration that it takes someone at least 5-10 minutes to write a well written post you might see where you look a little foolish here. I also fail to see what your comment adds to the topic at hand so do me a favor and don't insult others. So "nice job" I guess?
I applied the thoughts of the OP to a situation I see very often. I'm in a band, we've been gigging almost 2 years, and are known as one of the best bands in our local scene. Of course, this means we play with many, many other bands, some of which are just starting up, or just not very good in my opinion.
After the opening band finishes, and we're waiting to load gear on stage, some of the guys will usually walk by us and I'll always say "great job, you guys tore it up tonight" even if it wasn't very good. They are putting their art on display for all to enjoy, and if I don't enjoy it, I won't say that to them. I'll just be polite and carry on my way. If they can't tell they suck, other people telling them that won't make a difference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Now, if I were to say "your set was crap, you need to do this and this and this different" I would probably end up in a fight, or with the band 86ed from that venue.
Everyone has fun doing what they love. There's no reason to rag on someone and tell them that they didn't do a good job, unless you are so self conscious of your own painting/music/other things in your life/whatever that it makes you feel like a big manly man to pick on others.
Overall, the rest of the thread compliments the poster for their Skaven(which do, in fact, look better than that Rhino or the other Marine related stuff the OP has. The Skaven however are not immune to criticism either)--and yet someone still simply posts "looking good" about that tank and a Dreadnought posted that looks very similar in terms of the paint.
Again its only hard if you want it to be.
"Interesting. I would put another coat on the blue and purple to even out the paint. Look up the articles on inking/devlin mud. You would be stunned how much those techniques would enhance this model."
Troy wrote:[
Again its only hard if you want it to be.
"Interesting. I would put another coat on the blue and purple to even out the paint. Look up the articles on inking/devlin mud. You would be stunned how much those techniques would enhance this model."
or
SAY NOTHING.
Then maybe it should be if you don't want criticism, don't post pictures of your models.
Yeah. That sounds much better than not offering criticism on models posted in the freaking showcase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should also add that you're still, seemingly, not grasping the concept of "empty compliments".
When praise isn't deserved, it should not be given. That actually means "If you don't have anything constructive to say, SAY NOTHING."
Maybe the difficulty here, is your failure to grasp that criticism can be constructive, and part of that includes non hostile statements. But it fits with your snide commentary on this minor topic.
Kanluwen wrote:I should also add that you're still, seemingly, not grasping the concept of "empty compliments".
When praise isn't deserved, it should not be given. That actually means "If you don't have anything constructive to say, SAY NOTHING."
I think most people in this thread have grasped that just fine.
What concerns me is that people seem to still be trying to apply their own arbitrary standard as a baseline for when something is 'good'...
The fact that you don't feel that a model deserves praise has no bearing on whether or not somebody else feels it does.
And the fact that people are apparently getting bent out of shape because somebody else received a small bit of praise that they personally don't feel was warranted makes the baby Jesus a sad panda.
Troy wrote:Maybe the difficulty here, is your failure to grasp that criticism can be constructive, and part of that includes non hostile statewments.
Yes, CLEARLY I've failed to grasp that criticism can be constructive.
Kanluwen wrote:
You can't give criticism while giving empty compliments. The whole point of Aerethan saying "empty compliments" is because there is a disturbing trend of people complimenting paint jobs that really should be deconstructed and criticism doled out along with advice. There is no reason for those paint jobs to be complimented, even if it is the person's first time. They're not coming on here and posting their work to get the kind of "criticism" they'd get from their parents. They're, whether they want it or not, going to get criticism from people who have experience in the hobby they're working in.
Kanluwen wrote:You cannot fix a problem if you do not know there is one. Posts like "They look nice " do not help a person who has put up their first model that looks atrocious, even by tabletop standards.
Posts like "You have a clear grasp as to a color scheme you want, but your paints are a bit thick and do not look like you're allowing them to properly set before adding another color." or "You've selected Dark Eldar for your first army, which is awesome. More non-Astartes armies are fantastic! However, it does look like you just brushed the paint straight onto the bare plastic. I'd advise you to take some Simple Green(readily available at Lowe's Home Improvement or many grocery/auto stores) and strip the paint off, then go back and prime the models first." do help that person, however.
Oh wait. No I haven't. You've just focused on Aerethan's statement of 'At what point do you stop saying "nice job"?' and the topic at hand. There is no problem, at all, with saying "nice job"...if the piece in question deserves it. Saying "Nice job" when it's a model that looks like a five year old did it and posted in the Painting and Modeling Showcase?
That's unacceptable. That is what Aerethan's entire thread is about.
Once again, the point of Aerethan's thread, summed up into two lines:
You can compliment people all you want. Just don't do it because you're afraid criticism would hurt their feelings. If it doesn't deserve praise, then don't praise it.
Be critical, but don't be a douchebag. Posts like "This sucks" is no more helpful than "Nice job!" to a painter who is just starting.
Kanluwen wrote:. Saying "Nice job" when it's a model that looks like a five year old did it and posted in the Painting and Modeling Showcase?
That's unacceptable. That is what Aerethan's entire thread is about.
And what I've been pointing out right through this thread is that people getting upset about this need to just get over the fact that someone else is receiving praise for something they personally don't believe deserves it.
Your 'looks like a 5-year-old painted it' may very well be someone else's 'nice job'... The fact that people think this is a problem just boggles the mind.
Kanluwen wrote:I should also add that you're still, seemingly, not grasping the concept of "empty compliments".
When praise isn't deserved, it should not be given. That actually means "If you don't have anything constructive to say, SAY NOTHING."
I think most people in this thread have grasped that just fine.
Maybe, but emphasizing that the point isn't "You should never give compliments or you soften these panzies up" but rather it's "You shouldn't just toss around compliments without actually setting a standard to go by".
What concerns me is that people seem to still be trying to apply their own arbitrary standard as a baseline for when something is 'good'...
Then what is the point of having a showcase? What's the point of having a rating system? Why don't we just change the rating scale to "Everyone's a winner"?
The "arbitrary standard" that I use for "if something is good" is the tabletop standard. If it looks good when I put it up on my monitor and walk 5 feet away--then it's met my criteria for being "tabletop standard".
The only time I feel you should be absurdly, to the point of likely making someone cry critical is when someone posts something in the "Showcase" or advertises themselves as a "commission painter". They clearly feel their work is worth the hallmark associated with those two ideas("Showcases" being the pinnacle of excellence and "commission painters" are supposed to be doing quality work while getting paid), and there is no excuse for it not to be up to snuff in that case.
The fact that you don't feel that a model deserves praise has no bearing on whether or not somebody else feels it does.
And the fact that people are apparently getting bent out of shape because somebody else received a small bit of praise that they personally don't feel was warranted makes the baby Jesus a sad panda.
You're misunderstanding.
Speaking for myself, I'm getting "bent out of shape" because really who gains if everyone goes around posting "Nice job!" or "Awesome work!" on everybody's work, no matter the quality?
I don't think it helps anyone.
It doesn't help the new painters, it doesn't help the veterans. More often than not the only people it helps is the person posting the "Nice job" because he's trying to bump his post count.
Kanluwen wrote:. Saying "Nice job" when it's a model that looks like a five year old did it and posted in the Painting and Modeling Showcase?
That's unacceptable. That is what Aerethan's entire thread is about.
And what I've been pointing out right through this thread is that people getting upset about this need to just get over the fact that someone else is receiving praise for something they personally don't believe deserves it.
Your 'looks like a 5-year-old painted it' may very well be someone else's 'nice job'... The fact that people think this is a problem just boggles the mind.
"People"(In this case I'm referring explicitly to myself, because I don't know anyone else's reasoning for why they think it's a problem) think it's a problem because there's quite a few of these that have cropped up in the Showcase and I see models of that quality every few days being sold on feeBay as "Pro-Painted".
I have no problems with people receiving praise if they don't deserve it. I find it obnoxious, however, when they post up more pieces that are the same quality and bite back at criticism saying that "Well I was already told that it was a nice job!".
Kilkrazy wrote:The admins and moderators receive on average around 1,200 complaints of various kinds per week.
We record and classify these into broad categories in order to track what sort of things are worrying people and help guide changes and improvements to the site.
To put things in perspective, here are the aggregated stats for the past six months, in ascending order.
Inappropriate sexual, scatology and swearing 1%
Sock puppets 2%
IP violations (various) 3%
Personal rudeness 3%
Misc or unclassified 3%
Racism and other “isms” 5%
Bad grammar, L33tspeke, speling, etc. 9%
Thread Necronisation 9%
Wrong Forum (my pet hate) 12%
Commenting that a model is “nice” when it isn’t 53%
I hope you can see from this what a serious problem people replying “nice job” to a “not nice job” really is!
Please, only post “nice job” if the job is, in objective fact, “nice”.
I love that the stats prove that people are giving empty compliments and that it IS a concern of the community. Where were you last night Killkrazy?
Sad reflection on the state of Dakka's membership when the biggest single perceived problem is that someone says nice model when in fact it looks like Satan's buttole, no really it does it is very terrible!
Unless of course it is just Aetheran constantly hitting the panic button!
636 average complaints a week about false praise posts. It appears that while I may have made enemies in this thread, a large portion of dakka agrees with me. Or 1 person spends alot of time posting complaints(which is less likely).
To be quite honest the only thing I ever alert to the mods are incorrect topics in the tutorials section. That really grinds my gears.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sad reflection on the state of Dakka's membership when the biggest single perceived problem is that someone says nice model when in fact it looks like Satan's buttole, no really it does it is very terrible!
Unless of course it is just Aetheran constantly hitting the panic button!
Oddly enough I didn't know that was a valid reason to report a post! Not that I'll do it now as hunting down such posts would be a waste of time. As I said, the only thing I report is violating the tutorials rules.
I've thought about this before, but the fact is that if someone is encouraged to continue to paint, they WILL get better in time.
What DOESN'T help, is shooting new painters out of the sky the first mini they post. In most cases, I'm damn sure the new painter can clearly see the difference between their crud paint-job, and a good one. While I've seen the object of this thread far more often, I don't know how many times I've seen new painters get ripped a new one, presumably because they DARE to post their less than optimal paint-jobs on this oh, most hallowed of forums.
"nice job" and pro-painted are two of my most hated descriptors of paint jobs. they are rarely if ever accurate. I just purchased a heated ultrasonice cleaner for real cheap, just to clean all the pro-painted models I get off of eBay. When I see pro-painted I know that I am going to be able to win the auction for far less than a unpainted model.
Here's a tip, pro is short for professional. That means the quality is good enough to sell and make a living at it.
theunicorn wrote:"nice job" and pro-painted are two of my most hated descriptors of paint jobs. they are rarely if ever accurate. I just purchased a heated ultrasonice cleaner for real cheap, just to clean all the pro-painted models I get off of eBay. When I see pro-painted I know that I am going to be able to win the auction for far less than a unpainted model.
Here's a tip, pro is short for professional. That means the quality is good enough to sell and make a living at it.
I find these more humorous now than irritating. I'm sure if i still sold a lot on ebay like i used to it would get to me more.
aerethan wrote:Page 7 and people are still going on about ragging on painters.
The ENTIRE reason is for people to post CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISMS and not just say " nice job" when there are improvements to be made.
Kanluwen, quick I'm all out of popcorn!
It seems to me, from reading 100s (perhaps 1000s) of threads on the painting & modeling board, that very very few of the people on this site who posts criticism are capable of making it constructive. When that's the case, hollow praise is more constructive than trolling.
Here's a tip, pro is short for professional. That means the quality is good enough to sell and make a living at it.
No, actually, it doesn't. It often simply means you get paid for it:
"Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return"
Professional level does NOT require or assume quality in all circumstances.
Here's a tip, pro is short for professional. That means the quality is good enough to sell and make a living at it.
No, actually, it doesn't. It often simply means you get paid for it:
"Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return"
Professional level does NOT require or assume quality in all circumstances.
Very true.
Many pro-sports personalities are crap at what they do, but they're still professionals, because they get paid to do what they do.
"Pro-Painted" is still a VERY much-abused expression, though.
SgtSixkilla wrote:I've thought about this before, but the fact is that if someone is encouraged to continue to paint, they WILL get better in time.
What DOESN'T help, is shooting new painters out of the sky the first mini they post. In most cases, I'm damn sure the new painter can clearly see the difference between their crud paint-job, and a good one. While I've seen the object of this thread far more often, I don't know how many times I've seen new painters get ripped a new one, presumably because they DARE to post their less than optimal paint-jobs on this oh, most hallowed of forums.
If you see a new painter get ripped a new one, then report the person doing it. It's abusive behavior, and is not be tolerated here on Dakka.
Bear in mind though that saying "It looks like you need to thin your paints to get a better finish" or "Did you prime your model? There's spots of bare plastic/metal/resin showing, so I don't think you did. I'd highly advise you to, since it is an important step that helps give your paints a better surface to 'cling' to." or even "Your paint job is nice, but you really should drill out your bolters and clean up the really obvious moldlines all over the model. I suggest using a pin vice for the bolter barrels, and a sharp hobby knife for the moldlines." isn't 'ripping them a new one'. That's called constructive criticism.
aerethan wrote:Page 7 and people are still going on about ragging on painters.
The ENTIRE reason is for people to post CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISMS and not just say " nice job" when there are improvements to be made.
Page 7, and people are still insisting that criticism should be required when it's not.
If you wish to leave constructive criticism, by all means go for broke.
If you wish to just commend the painter for his effort, that's fine too.
If someone leaves a comment that they think a mini is good and you disagree, that's not the end of the world. Everybody has different standards, and a different impression of what constitutes 'good'.
The forum isn't just here for people to learn how to improve... it's also a venue for people to share what they've been doing, whether they want to improve or not. There is no requirement to improve, nor any sort of minimum standard required.
Since this is just going around in circles at this point, I think we're done here.
you,
Mini rant done
not just painting and modelling, but with everything. If it really is at the bottom of the barrel, then simple practice will improve a person a lot. Once they've got a handle on the basics, then you can go on to say "I like this, but that could use some work". If the painter can't handle that, they shouldn't be on the interwebz 
