This actully applies to D&D, but I think it can be connected to all gaming at an LGS. My LGS currently runs D&D Encounters. For those of you unfamiliar with the program you play a single combat/encounter over the course of 3 months. Up until now it has been free. This kind of has caused a few freeloaders to come in and what not. To prevent this in the next season the store is requiring anyone taking part in the 13 week event to purchase two packs of these cards called Fortune Cards. It works out to 8 dollars to pay for 3 months of gaming. A couple we game with who does purchase items at the store is making a big stink about it. They say they spend enough money over the course of the year, numerous visits, etc...that they should not have to. They are now claiming they want to stop playing at the store. I think they are being petty about it, but that is my opinion.

So that leads to my question. If you were to join a league in a store (lets say there was not even a prize) and you were required to purchase a unit (even though you might already spend a bunch of money) would you be putt off by it?

If it was a good store and the players were good and what i had to buy was something i might like then i probably wouldn't mind.

Standard practise at my local 40K tournament.

I have no issue with it.

The age old question. It certainly applies to other games. Every time I go into my GW store to use their tables to game I wonder if the manager is going to tell me I have to buy something to continue using their tables. I buy secondhand stuff and avoid that place like the plague but sometimes it's the only place to get a game. If it was a reasonable price, which $8 for 3 months surely is, then yes, that's ok. I pay $12 per month for Xbox Live no matter how much downloadable content I buy. If it gets out of hand I would consider trying to move the league to player run rather than store run.

The store has a point in that it does cost them to operate the event, so a little purchase would be good. But forcing them to buy a specific product, especially one as dislikable as the fortune cards, is probably a little too far.

I feel fortunate my local store has no such rules, though I buy my stuff through him anyways. It's more of an unspoken agreement around here. In general, it's a little uncool to never spend anything where you play, especially if you're taking up table space regularly and making use of stuff like terrain. I once knew a guy that would go to free store-run MtG events with prize and brag loudly he only bought 'great deals' online. The store owners weren't even too bothered about ignoring him because he never spent any money there anyways and 'mysteriously' managed to never give him the random door prizes. I feel that, if you have disposable income to put towards gaming at all, you should be able to put at least a bit of it through the shop you play at.

Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

AvatarForm wrote:Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

Paul wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

Except, when the players purchase something, they get something to take home other than the experience, after paying admission.

Financially, the store would be better off in terms of simply taking admission fees, but the players are better off in the present scenario.

It does tend to keep the loitering down, too. A lot of people in our local game store environment like to dawdle at the store, picking over the wares, and never contributing to the store at all. Once you've broken the seal, they become a little more generous with the cash. And, after all, stores are in this to make money, too, you know. They can't pay the rent with the hot air coming out of a gamer's mouth...

I agree with the store that players using it's facilities should be customers, but I don't think it's fair to force players to buy a specific item, especially the rubbish Fortune Cards. The store should just have players produce a receipt from within the last month.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:They can't pay the rent with the hot air coming out of a gamer's mouth...

Actually, I know an Engineer from Xstrata who could...

Geothermal is booming... imagine hooking all those mouth-breathers up to the system

Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

I think the store is being really clumsy in its attempt to forcefully wrangle a few measly bucks out of regular customers and the loss of respect will cost them a lot more in the long run.

A manager worth his salt would reward participants, not punish them. In my FLGS participants in such events get a discount on related product, and the discount in bigger for new players. Turns out the trick to making money is to make people happy to give it to you, not force them.

I see it both ways.

Its good to support your local store.

But if they had a free event, that brought people in, then started charging for it because people were playing due to it was free.. Then meh, i would just not play that game.

insaniak wrote:Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$. Afterall, Games Day, although on a much larger scale, is similar in many ways to this event. You are paying entry to participate in a few events (if you choose to) while being bombarded with advertising.

lord_blackfang wrote:I think the store is being really clumsy in its attempt to forcefully wrangle a few measly bucks out of regular customers and the loss of respect will cost them a lot more in the long run.

A manager worth his salt would reward participants, not punish them. In my FLGS participants in such events get a discount on related product, and the discount in bigger for new players. Turns out the trick to making money is to make people happy to give it to you, not force them.

Based upon the facts in the OP, this was being implemented in order to cut down on those who come in only for the event and do not make their purchases in store regardless. While the discount system is viable, perhaps if you rewarded paying customers with a free pass to the events, this would work in the store's favour. As they have already spent in the store and you are not giving away twice (pass and discounts).

My thoughts on the subject.

If its a league then by all meens charge me an admission to play, if you really like me allow me to cover it with a minimum purchase, if you really really like me comp me since I spend $1000's at your store each year. If you require me to purchase a specific product that I don't want then you better expect that this is going to turn me off from your store.

I'm okay with entrance fees. If a store wanted to encourage
product purchases, they could set a minimum buy good only
for the day of the event that replaces the entrance fee. Or they
could discount items related to the event.

Another thing is if a store was going to require product purchases
then the store better have everything in stock. I don't want to
buy something I don't want just to participate in an event.

AvatarForm wrote:insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

No, I'm not. The fact that they're getting more than just admission is the whole point of the exercise.

If it's a small fee I don't mind but I want to spend Hundreds of Dolloars a Year for entry!!!

It's not that much money. At my LGS I spend money there on paints and miniatures. But get £10 of for every £80 a loalty scheme thing. Then for gaming it costs £6 a month. I could easily go play at GW for free but I understand that he needs to charge so he can make money and pay bills. So I have no problem with paying money.

beowulfhunter wrote:This actully applies to D&D, but I think it can be connected to all gaming at an LGS. My LGS currently runs D&D Encounters. For those of you unfamiliar with the program you play a single combat/encounter over the course of 3 months. Up until now it has been free. This kind of has caused a few freeloaders to come in and what not. To prevent this in the next season the store is requiring anyone taking part in the 13 week event to purchase two packs of these cards called Fortune Cards. It works out to 8 dollars to pay for 3 months of gaming. A couple we game with who does purchase items at the store is making a big stink about it. They say they spend enough money over the course of the year, numerous visits, etc...that they should not have to. They are now claiming they want to stop playing at the store. I think they are being petty about it, but that is my opinion.

So that leads to my question. If you were to join a league in a store (lets say there was not even a prize) and you were required to purchase a unit (even though you might already spend a bunch of money) would you be putt off by it?

Of course it ignores the fact that I believe WOTC was pushing the use of fortune cards for their events, last I looked.

Its crappy. Just charge me a flat fee for usage. Dont make me buy stuff I dont want. Thats a bigger turn off then a fee.

beowulfhunter wrote:This actully applies to D&D, but I think it can be connected to all gaming at an LGS. My LGS currently runs D&D Encounters. For those of you unfamiliar with the program you play a single combat/encounter over the course of 3 months. Up until now it has been free. This kind of has caused a few freeloaders to come in and what not. To prevent this in the next season the store is requiring anyone taking part in the 13 week event to purchase two packs of these cards called Fortune Cards. It works out to 8 dollars to pay for 3 months of gaming. A couple we game with who does purchase items at the store is making a big stink about it. They say they spend enough money over the course of the year, numerous visits, etc...that they should not have to. They are now claiming they want to stop playing at the store. I think they are being petty about it, but that is my opinion.

So that leads to my question. If you were to join a league in a store (lets say there was not even a prize) and you were required to purchase a unit (even though you might already spend a bunch of money) would you be putt off by it?

Do the encounters force you to use the Fortune Cards or can you play without them? What if someone comes in for the first time and already has the cards? Do you require them to buy them again? I think a better option is to require a player to register for the series at the cost of $8 and then IMMEDIATELY give them an $8 gift certificate for use at the store or a set of the cards. The store still makes a 40% cut but it doesn't penalize new players to the area or local people just trying it out for gaks and giggles while at the same time discouraging internet-store only buyers who come to play. Simply charging $8 as a fee (which isn't what you're suggesting) might engender some anger in certain customers so I see that as the least favorable option.

I agree with Insaniak, having events and people engaging in the hobby is good for a shop. It draws in new people and encourages people who already play to choose that LGS. Sure these people might not buy everytime, or maybe not at all but the more people you have in the store the more sales you will get. Having a large number of players is important to a store, they might not contribute anything themselves but they make it more enjoyable for otehr customers who will buy. I know that I wouldn't go to a LGS that has a very small number of visiters however good they are because I will get bored playing just them.

I'm not against entrance fees but only when the store is actually doing something serious for the customers. I don't agree with them charging for something small like the encounters the OP mentions. if it's a private event or a competition then I would be fine paying an entrance fee but minor events during the opening times should be free IMO- the store should be getting enough advertising out of it.

If the owner was set on charging I think it would been better just to charge an entrace fee, at least people don't feel like they are being tricked into buying stuff they don't want. They are being told they are getting something for their money but if they don't need the cards they certainly aren't. Personally I think the best way if you have to charge is to make there a minimum purchase per month. At least people actually get somethng useful.

Thanks for the imput guys. I do think for a store to be sucessful they NEED TO HOLD PUBLIC EVENTS! I figure the money I spend in events to play provies me with fellow players/opponents who I would not normally get a game against so it is money well spent.

I think this is one of those issues that has no clear cut answer and someone is always going to be put off.

As to the question if if they are required, no, suggested would be better and many of us have donated our cards for people to play with.

I don't mind something that's $10 or under to be able to play. It does keep out the loiterers. But I don't like the idea of having to purchase something if I already own it, so make it an $8 entry fee that in turn gives you an $8 gift card to use at the store for whatever you want. The money stays in the store (it is a business after all) and you get to play without a bunch of loitering folks. Win!

Even LFGS (GW or not) need to generate revenue to stay in business. They either need to charge entry fees, "club" dues, or "purchase to play" in order to support the otherwise free gaming areas.

Aren't Encounters kind of like warmachine demos?

No one charges for Warmachine demos, but everyone charges
for tournaments and single day events.

malfred wrote:Aren't Encounters kind of like warmachine demos?

No one charges for Warmachine demos, but everyone charges
for tournaments and single day events.

Encounters is a weekly DnD game. I run them here, and we have about 14 people come in, with 2 Dungeon Masters. The amount of money spent is meagre, and some times nothing at all. I can see the point of having at least a token sale of one item. This is very, very minor. 8.00 in 13 weeks, or 62 cents a week? You could probably wave it for someone buying something else, but really, the couple is being petty as hell about it.

mikhaila wrote:

malfred wrote:Aren't Encounters kind of like warmachine demos?

No one charges for Warmachine demos, but everyone charges
for tournaments and single day events.

Encounters is a weekly DnD game. I run them here, and we have about 14 people come in, with 2 Dungeon Masters. The amount of money spent is meagre, and some times nothing at all. I can see the point of having at least a token sale of one item. This is very, very minor. 8.00 in 13 weeks, or 62 cents a week? You could probably wave it for someone buying something else, but really, the couple is being petty as hell about it.

14 people with 2 Dungeon Masters seems about right for your store, but if it was 16 people showing up and borrowing store material every week for 13 weeks straight in a shop meant for maybe 8-10 people tops--I'd definitely institute some kind of small purchase thing if it were me, at least to try to encourage some turnaround or people scheduling stuff rather than simply showing up and bumming store material off the racks.

If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Probably in their agreement with Wizards to stock the product.

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Because there are two separate things called theory and practice. In theory, running a demo or sponsored event is supposed to result in increased sales as those participating are so inspired by the products that they want to spend money on them right away in the store you're playing in. In practice, plenty of people never have any intention of spending the money regardless of whether they had fun while others will take advantage of the opportunity presented to learn a new game and promptly order it... online at the cheapest possible discount. Having some barrier to entry for the event keeps most of those two classes of cheap gamers away. Lets be honest, the purpose of anything in a store (whether its products or activities or even wall fixtures) SHOULD be to sell you something and assuming otherwise is just plain naive. Stores hope for the former to show up but should have a plan for dealing with the latter.

I've tried to sign up for local tourneys that had admission prices that weren't required to be paid ahead of time to guarantee a spot; every time one was run at my FLGS, people signed up right away and took all the available spots and left me without one. When I'd inquire the next week about the tourney (the store is too far to drive for just a gaks and giggles visit), I'd hear that half the people who "reserved" never showed. When they switched to prepayment to guarantee a spot, all of a sudden you could register the day before. Some sort of price, however small (like the 62 cents per week mikhalia quoted) tends to attract people more serious about learning the game and subsequently purchasing it. Until a store owner runs a bunch of these types of events, he or she doesn't know the breakup of his local gaming community.

Pay where you play.

I have no problem with 'entry fees' to pay for space, manhours, food, materials and all that.

I think if the primary goal is to move product, then I would make everyone pay an entry fee and then give out door prizes in store credit. I have attended events where they charge 25$ for the full day, provide pizza and drinks and a well-run event then give out like 10 or so 'door prizes' for 25$ gift certificates. So there is a good chance participants will get basically a 'free' event and the store is guaranteed to move 250$ worth of product on top of anything else they sell.

Stores should expect that an event 'moves product' but often it doesn't. Turning admission into store credit then moves product.

No one should expect free gaming... Paying where you play when it comes to events is the 20% tip for eating out in a restaurant.

I think the easiest way of running this and if it is being brought in to stop freeloading would be for the store to run a "Loyalty Card" scheme.
Each purchase gets X amount towards the cost of the cards to play in the event thus meaning that regular customers get to take part for free.
Although if i was the manager and i had a few really good customers then i would quite simply kick a few packs to them for free.

nkelsch wrote:Stores should expect that an event 'moves product' but often it doesn't.

It's not always an immediate return... but part of the point of getting people to play in your store is also to build loyalty. So while they might not buy something that day, they may very well come back and buy something later.

Paying where you play when it comes to events is the 20% tip for eating out in a restaurant.

You're going to run into cultural barriers with that analogy... tipping in restaurants and cafes is much more of a voluntary thing over here, and is generally more of a thank you for exceptional service than something that is expected. And it would have to be very, very good service indeed before I would be considering leaving anything approaching 20%...



It's worth considering as well that a lot of the time running events doesn't actually cost the store a great deal beyond the wages of the staff member running them (or whatever freebies they're giving the volunteer doing it). I don't know if they still do it, but Wizards used to send out free monthly packs to stores that included scenarios and prizes for that week's gaming. It's not uncommon for CCG companies to provide prize support in the form of free boosters and the like for sanctioned events. Other miniature companies have done similar things on and off over the years...

If people aren't buying actual product during the event, make up for it by selling drinks and munchies. You have a captive audience for several hours... fattening them up will make you far more popular than forcing them to buy product in order to play.

I wouldn't mind having to buy something to play in an event- but I don't see why you wouldn't just make an entrance fee, instead.

I do pay where I play, whenever I can... but generally not much on the day of an event. Usually just glue/primer/supplies or the like that I realized I needed when pulling out my army.

Now when a store offers a special discount the day of an event, my wallet empties rather quickly (looking at you, mikhaila!)

insaniak wrote:Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

I couldn't agree more; your post summed up every thing I could had said on the matter. So I'll spare readers the novel I generally write.

Doesn't seem like a lot to ask. But than again, I always buy something when I go in to play games.

Something like this needs to be handled case by case: If someone walks in, solely to loiter/not participate, charge an entrance fee. If someone comes in with a friend, with no plans on playing but wants to see how the game handles, don't charge him. If you can address someone by name, don't charge them either.

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Generic reasons other stores have given:

1. You keep hoping people will suprise you and buy something.
2. You have dungeon masters and regular customers who will be disappointed if you cancel it.
3. You'll be the bad guy if you cancel things.
4. Every gamer will immediately remind you of the 1.00 dice they bought two months ago, as justification of their existance.
5. When one of the idiots tells you "games should be free! It's a constitutional right!", I'll club him to death and go to jail.
6. Didn't know it would suck when we set it up, and we keep hoping it will get better.
7. Someone each week buys that one item that lets you justify the 13 that freeload.
8. You're at least offering a service to the community.
9. It wouldn't be bad if it didn't draw out all the ultrageeks that can't seem to find a game anywhere else in the world
10. Tables are just sitting there anyway.
11. Gives the MTG players someone to look down upon.
12. Lets you annoy the MTG players by having a RPG group two tables over.
13. Nostalgia
14. Helps sign up new people for the WOTC OP system, which might help with MTG events and getting product early.

AvatarForm wrote:
insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

The problem with this is, what if the product they have to buy is not something they want?
Personally, I'd have no problem paying a fee to enter a league, but I'd really resent being told that I have to buy a special, say, set of dice; and that I couldn't play if I didn't.

The problem is with freeloaders who use the store's resources- space, electricity, plumbing- without contributing by purchasing anything from the store. In that case, the store owner needs to tell the freeloaders that they are not welcome. It's not like he'll be losing business. My local FLGS had a similar problem, a group of role-players would come in and take over a large table once a week, and none of them ever bought anything from the store... not even snacks. And they were using space that tabletop gamers wanted. Finally the owner told them to start buying or stop coming.

No one misses them.

Where I play encounters, players have to pay a $5 entry fee, this fee is converted to a $5 gift card from the store. You don't lose any money but the store makes due.

fellblade wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

The problem with this is, what if the product they have to buy is not something they want?
Personally, I'd have no problem paying a fee to enter a league, but I'd really resent being told that I have to buy a special, say, set of dice; and that I couldn't play if I didn't.

The problem is with freeloaders who use the store's resources- space, electricity, plumbing- without contributing by purchasing anything from the store. In that case, the store owner needs to tell the freeloaders that they are not welcome. It's not like he'll be losing business. My local FLGS had a similar problem, a group of role-players would come in and take over a large table once a week, and none of them ever bought anything from the store... not even snacks. And they were using space that tabletop gamers wanted. Finally the owner told them to start buying or stop coming.

No one misses them.

See, but is that fair? I'm not saying they shouldn't support the store, or at the very least give up their table when a paying customer wants it. But to ban them from the store... I don't know, I just thought game stores were supposed to be places to hang out, and play games. Should Warhammer/warmachine players be banned because they already have their entire army purchased?

I even suggested this at my FLGS. Now mind you we have roughly a dozen newbie players playing at 1,000pts this go around. But the store charges 5 bucks a head per league night and dumps that back into prize support for the events. But you can get really great prizes. Last week someone got a Baneblade as a door prize... Stuff like that makes it totally worth it.

I'll throw in my two cents:

I'll often purchase something every couple of times I visit a store. I mainly visit 2 stores - one that I order everything from, and another that actually has the stuff I want in stock. Both of which are excellent stores, and I'd definitely miss them if they ever closed, so I always try to add a bit of my own patronage.

A funny story: The one store recently moves to a much more prominent and, frankly, nicer location. It went from a tiny store and semi-tiny basement to a larger, single floor, window-intense store on a very busy street in a nice shopping district. Not surprisingly, the owner has gotten an increase in foot traffic and random people who are intrigued, and he's always happy to walk people around the store and explain what the board games, rpgs, and miniature games are that he sells.

The point of this? He finds it amusing that non-gaming people are surprised when he tells them that people can play at his store for free.

mikhaila wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:If running Encounters sucks so much for the stores, why run them?

Generic reasons other stores have given:

1. You keep hoping people will suprise you and buy something.
2. You have dungeon masters and regular customers who will be disappointed if you cancel it.
3. You'll be the bad guy if you cancel things.
4. Every gamer will immediately remind you of the 1.00 dice they bought two months ago, as justification of their existance.
5. When one of the idiots tells you "games should be free! It's a constitutional right!", I'll club him to death and go to jail.
6. Didn't know it would suck when we set it up, and we keep hoping it will get better.
7. Someone each week buys that one item that lets you justify the 13 that freeload.
8. You're at least offering a service to the community.
9. It wouldn't be bad if it didn't draw out all the ultrageeks that can't seem to find a game anywhere else in the world
10. Tables are just sitting there anyway.
11. Gives the MTG players someone to look down upon.
12. Lets you annoy the MTG players by having a RPG group two tables over.
13. Nostalgia
14. Helps sign up new people for the WOTC OP system, which might help with MTG events and getting product early.

All of those things sound like excuses to stay in abusive relationships...

Slarg232 wrote:

fellblade wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
insaniak, you are ignoring the fact that the participants are getting more than admission for their $$$.

The problem with this is, what if the product they have to buy is not something they want?
Personally, I'd have no problem paying a fee to enter a league, but I'd really resent being told that I have to buy a special, say, set of dice; and that I couldn't play if I didn't.

The problem is with freeloaders who use the store's resources- space, electricity, plumbing- without contributing by purchasing anything from the store. In that case, the store owner needs to tell the freeloaders that they are not welcome. It's not like he'll be losing business. My local FLGS had a similar problem, a group of role-players would come in and take over a large table once a week, and none of them ever bought anything from the store... not even snacks. And they were using space that tabletop gamers wanted. Finally the owner told them to start buying or stop coming.

No one misses them.

See, but is that fair? I'm not saying they shouldn't support the store, or at the very least give up their table when a paying customer wants it. But to ban them from the store... I don't know, I just thought game stores were supposed to be places to hang out, and play games. Should Warhammer/warmachine players be banned because they already have their entire army purchased?

I would bet that they weren't banned, just told they couldn't use the space to play, and they just never showed up again. As to "Fair", what they were doing was not fair at all. It was costing the store money, and costing other players games, and probably upsetting players that would have given support to the store if they had got a game in.

And I've yet to see many Warhammer players that quit buying and 'finish an army'. Maybe for a few weeks, or even months. But if they keep playing, they generally keep buying. I don't have any problem with two guys walking in, playing a game, and buying nothing. I'll get their money eventually.)

Ugavine wrote:I agree with the store that players using its facilities should be customers, but I don't think it's fair to force players to buy a specific item, especially the rubbish Fortune Cards. The store should just have players produce a receipt from within the last month.

This sums up my sentiments exactly. I’m all for gamers having to be a frequent customer of some sort or pay a rental fee to use facilities. Having to buy a specific item sounds like an underhanded approach by the store to move excess stock that would most likely not sell otherwise. All in all an odd and clumsy approach to ward off freeloaders.

Considering that is how Encounters works, I think the only solution would be to either play on the D&D Encounters or not... Simple as that.

As far making a purchase in general, I think that some people should remember that entrance/rental fees are greatly appreciated, but if there is no product turnover, there is no reason for your FLGS to remain a game store (and in certain cases, friendly). Buying everything off of website, then showing up to your store of choice with a whole bunch of new shinies is an asinine move. BUY SOMETHING! It's what really pays the rent and wants the store owner to keep stock in the store!

The host of Ard Boyz last year told us that the in-store tables had a $5 rental/receipt fee. Either you paid $5 to play, or you purchased $5 in merchandise. Kept the store happy, the games equipped/fed, and everyone made out fine in the long run.

Stop complaining that retail areas don't provide a free place for you and your friends to play. They have bills, too. And if you ain't helping to pay them, you have no room to complain!

insaniak wrote:

You're going to run into cultural barriers with that analogy... tipping in restaurants and cafes is much more of a voluntary thing over here, and is generally more of a thank you for exceptional service than something that is expected. And it would have to be very, very good service indeed before I would be considering leaving anything approaching 20%...

In the US, if you don't tip, you are stealing money from your servers pocket in many places. Many servers make 5-6 dollars under minimum wage and are taxed with the expectation that they make up that minimum wage on tips. If they don't have the tips they still get taxed. Some states allow workers to work for just tips. Also, when you Tip the server has to pay based on the balance of the check, 1% goes to the busboy, 1% to the bartender and 1% to the restaurant. So if you really want the server to get no tip you at least need to tip 3% or else your server has to pay out of pocket to make up the difference. This is why there is forced gratuity on large checks. Anything less than 3% tip is theft, Anything less than 10% tip is cruel and denying an employee (even a bad one) a living wage.

The long and the short, if you can't afford to pay that service fee, then don't go out to eat. If you can't afford to pay MSRP and pay where you play and have to buy everything online to get a 20% discount, then stay home. Consider the lack of internet discounter your 'tip' for using the space someone pays rent on. Also remember, for every table you use and you don't buy things, you are preventing other potential customers gaming space and maybe they would. Personally, I don't feel right using up a store owners space for free when I have no intention to become a customer or purchase anything. It is like going to a restaurant and getting a table for 10, sitting by myself and ordering water and eating my own sandwich and leaving without tipping. Not only do they make no money off me, but I have prevented them from making money off their own table space which could have been used for paying customers.

The current league i'm involved in has a buy in program i'm a fan of. Its a 40k escalation league where you are charged $10 per event which are 1x per month and run sfor 6 months. This $10 is put on a gift card for you, which you may spend that day, or continue to add onto.

Basically you are agreeing to spend $60 in 6 months to be in the escalation league. Considering the event has prize support, I think the manager is being very very generous. There is no paint requirements, there is a painting score however. If your army is not fully painted, your best model is rated, then the score is halved.

I think it is fair enough. For 40k tournaments I have often had to pay a small buy in fee of $10-$20.

Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

4M2A wrote:Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

When my kids were alot smaller(and messy) I would leave a larger tip just due to the fact that they had to clean up when trouble my kids would leave. Mac cheese on the seat, floor, where ever in a fit of happiness or hissy fit it would end up.....yeah they have to bus the tables, but some things are a bit more then expected.

4M2A wrote:Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

I won't call it theft, but I won't eat out if I'm not willing to tip.

Paul wrote:

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

I agree with this option, from the start or if you want to jump in it's 8.00 bucks, lets other trollers as well to pass by without speaking.

nkelsch wrote:In the US, if you don't tip, you are stealing money from your servers pocket in many places.

I would sooner say the part where people get paid below minimum wage is where the stealing happens, but that's just me.


Anyway, the requirement to buy store credit to participate seems like a decent middle ground, it makes sure people spend money but they still get their full money's worth and can buy what they like.

mikhaila wrote:Encounters is a weekly DnD game. I run them here, and we have about 14 people come in, with 2 Dungeon Masters. The amount of money spent is meagre, and some times nothing at all. I can see the point of having at least a token sale of one item. This is very, very minor. 8.00 in 13 weeks, or 62 cents a week? You could probably wave it for someone buying something else, but really, the couple is being petty as hell about it.

Gamers in general but especially pen-and-paper RPGers, of which I think this game system is basically an offshoot, are in my personal experience some of the pettiest and cheapest people in the world. I've never run into such a pervasive sense of 'give me free stuff/I have a right to use your space and resources' as with RPG groups.

As a minis gamer, I'm used to near-constant cash outlay to keep myself updated with new models, paint, modeling supplies, and releases. I don't think pen-paper RPGers have this same mindset, so I'm not the least bit surprised by the squawking at having to pay for anything, regardless of how nominal.

I'd require a flat fee of $10 up front, and gamers get a $10 gift certificate to the store or, if it's a competitive format, 100% prize payout to 1st, 2nd, 3rd place in store credit.

This would be in line with every other event I've ever played, and I don't doubt would help to sift out the remoras from the rest of the fish.

carmachu wrote:

4M2A wrote:Nkelsch- While tips may be expected in some areas they certainly aren't anyones right. In the end it's down to the customer whether to tip and if they feel they shouldn't tip they don't have to. They aren't stealing from anybody.

When my kids were alot smaller(and messy) I would leave a larger tip just due to the fact that they had to clean up when trouble my kids would leave. Mac cheese on the seat, floor, where ever in a fit of happiness or hissy fit it would end up.....yeah they have to bus the tables, but some things are a bit more then expected.

This! I so leave 'I'm sorry, don't think I'm a bad person/parent/human being' tips all the time.

Oh i've spent time in the US, I know what the expectation is on tipping but it's still a choice. Regardless of how important you feel tipping is it's not compulsory. It's entirely up to the individual customer as to how they handle tips.

I know at my FLGS there's a small amount of hostility between the roleplayers and the minis guys. Admittedly, minis players use more tables (only two per 6x4), but we're all buying product. The roleplayers show up, sometimes buy a book, and camp at a table for hours being loud.

The best part was when the owner put a table in a side room for them to use, and they still used the common gaming area, becuase too many of the players couldn't fit comfortably in the RP room.

People get salty over all kinds of dippy stuff, and this is one of them. It's a tough call for owners to avoid getting taken advantage of, while not alienating your base. I think that the approach usually matters a lot here, rather than the actual cost.

4M2A wrote:Oh i've spent time in the US, I know what the expectation is on tipping but it's still a choice. Regardless of how important you feel tipping is it's not compulsory. It's entirely up to the individual customer as to how they handle tips.

That makes you Mr. Pink then

sourclams wrote:As a minis gamer, I'm used to near-constant cash outlay to keep myself updated with new models, paint, modeling supplies, and releases. I don't think pen-paper RPGers have this same mindset, so I'm not the least bit surprised by the squawking at having to pay for anything, regardless of how nominal.

This is an interesting observation, it was actually covered on the THACO podcast once. The speaker actually admitted that he himself will plonk down $60 for one new model without thinking, while at the same time he will be reluctant to buy one $60 RPG book that could last him for years.

As an 'in addition', it's been my general observation over the past decade or so that pen-paper crowds tend to be the lowest income bracket of hobby store gamers, probably because pen-paper is easily the cheapest of all the major gaming systems, doubly so if unscrupulous individuals are willing to resort to online piracy or if someone else in the group buys/prints off RPG books and allows others to borrow.

I think it's a bit safe to say that a good chunk of the pen-paper crowd got into pen-paper gaming because it's the cheapest recreational activity that one can get into.

This is where I see the big problem from the store owners' standpoint; a horde of unwashed plebes (and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if any one group fits the smelly/awkward gamer stereotype it's the pen-paper crowd) without two nickels to rub together or cheapskates/pirates that buy very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end.

Fostering a gaming community is important to the game store, but catering to this sort of crowd can also drive away a better-quality customer base (from a sales generation standpoint) that doesn't want to associate or be associated with the lowest common denominator.

lord_blackfang wrote:
This is an interesting observation, it was actually covered on the THACO podcast once. The speaker actually admitted that he himself will plonk down $60 for one new model without thinking, while at the same time he will be reluctant to buy one $60 RPG book that could last him for years.

Depends on the customer. I'm spending more now per month on RPG's then I am on models. Granted I have a subscription to paizo and pick up some frog god game items so it makes it easy.

sourclams wrote:As an 'in addition', it's been my general observation over the past decade or so that pen-paper crowds tend to be the lowest income bracket of hobby store gamers, probably because pen-paper is easily the cheapest of all the major gaming systems, doubly so if unscrupulous individuals are willing to resort to online piracy or if someone else in the group buys/prints off RPG books and allows others to borrow.

I think it's a bit safe to say that a good chunk of the pen-paper crowd got into pen-paper gaming because it's the cheapest recreational activity that one can get into.

This is where I see the big problem from the store owners' standpoint; a horde of unwashed plebes (and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if any one group fits the smelly/awkward gamer stereotype it's the pen-paper crowd) without two nickels to rub together or cheapskates/pirates that buy very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end.

Fostering a gaming community is important to the game store, but catering to this sort of crowd can also drive away a better-quality customer base (from a sales generation standpoint) that doesn't want to associate or be associated with the lowest common denominator.

You're not trying to be condescending?

I think the idea that gamers in general are cheap is false. Gaming is a very expensive hobby, and while pen and paper gaming isn't as expensive as miniature wargaming, the rules sets and source books aren't cheap and they do add up.

When I got into RPGs it wasn't because it was cheap, it was because I liked the system. In my experience of playing with RPGers, most people are not only willing to buy the latest books, but anxiously await their release, much in the same way we look forward to new codexes or models. I don't know how many times I've told myself that I'm just going to buy the core rule books when a new RPG/edition came out, only to end up with a stack of source books that rarely get used.

I'm happy and willing to pay for any event with some kind of prize, whether it is store credit or even a trophy, but I'd never consider paying for the privilege to sit down at a game table for a game. I might not buy something every time i walk into my FLGS, but when I do, it's often a big hit. I also tend to make silly impulse purchases on occasion. Just the other day I popped in to pick up some Quickshade and walked out with Munchkin Booty and a few paint pots as well.

A good hobby store runs events to build it's customer base and loyalty. I'm a customer for life at my FLGS. I'm blessed to live near one of the best hobby shops, with a gaming space that's larger than most store's complete footprint. They have always had great attitudes about use of their space and the only times I've been turned away from getting a game in, is if there is already a large event taking up the entire area. Because of this I give my money to the store, not every time I walk in, but any time I need to purchase something game or comic related.

There are some super cheap gamers. Not in Gw, but look to historicals, boardgamers, TRPGs, etc., and you'll find some guys that won't spend a nickle.

Not every broad generalization requires somebody to post "but I'm X and certaiinly not Y."

And RPG players dont' have the fear of the shop closing that minis gamers have. You can play D&D around a dining room table, unlike 40k.

My vote is for it: it's better than being charged a nominal amount as a plain old entry fee - at least this way you actually get some other than the experience for it

I know a lot of stores where there's an entry fee or a minimum purchase amount to get into an event. Seems to be a pretty good compromise.

Also, not tipping is a pretty gakky thing to do.

insaniak wrote:Forcing your customers to buy in order to play shows a certain lack of perspective, I think.

Running games in store is a service that stores offer in order to entice people to spend time in that store, under the idea that if people spend enough time in there, at least some of them will buy something. It's a form of marketing, nothing more.

Expecting people to buy something in order to use that service is akin to TV stations charging their viewers a fee to watch their advertisements.

By all means charge an entrance fee for the event to cover the costs of that event... but anything more than that is expecting a little too much, and is just going to drive people away.

This 100%

I spend money every time I go into my FLGS. sometimes its just a soda from the machine and a bag of chips, but I always purchase something.

We play once a week, 7 people our table. I am not sure if we would be there if they instituted some sort of pay to play policy. They have run a game room in their store for more than 10 years and it has always been free.

I could see having to purchase a gift certificate to the store instead of the product they specifically are telling people they need to buy, since I spend that money anyway its not a big deal.

But the couple have a point, why should they be forced to buy a product they will never use?

augustus5 wrote:Post

I would say that you are the ideal gamer, a gamer with an outlook very similar to myself, and the sort of gamer that hobby stores are delighted to recruit and that keep the hobby store going.

Based on my personal experience, this is not reflective of the general gaming crowd, and especially so for the bulk of the RPG crowd. I think minis gamers are used to cash outlay because you need 'stuff' in order to minis game, but RPGers I think are much more used to having one person buy a book/module and share out than to 'everybody buys in' systems.

Gamer B sitting next to Gamer A and asking to borrow his unopened box of Space Marine Scouts, and then his clippers, paint, glue, dice, ruler, and templates would probably be considered pretty unusual in most gaming circles. I regularly see this in pen-paper circles ("Hey, can I have a character sheet/borrow your pencil/use those dice/see your book?"). I have regularly seen a large % of younger or lower income gamers show up with literally nothing to a gaming event. I think this is part of a cultural difference between pen-paper gaming and other types.

And that's fine, unless you're trying to run a game store/event series and this particular demographic feels it is entitled to participate.

sourclams wrote:As an 'in addition', it's been my general observation over the past decade or so that pen-paper crowds tend to be the lowest income bracket of hobby store gamers, probably because pen-paper is easily the cheapest of all the major gaming systems, doubly so if unscrupulous individuals are willing to resort to online piracy or if someone else in the group buys/prints off RPG books and allows others to borrow.

I think it's a bit safe to say that a good chunk of the pen-paper crowd got into pen-paper gaming because it's the cheapest recreational activity that one can get into.

This is where I see the big problem from the store owners' standpoint; a horde of unwashed plebes (and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if any one group fits the smelly/awkward gamer stereotype it's the pen-paper crowd) without two nickels to rub together or cheapskates/pirates that buy very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end.

Fostering a gaming community is important to the game store, but catering to this sort of crowd can also drive away a better-quality customer base (from a sales generation standpoint) that doesn't want to associate or be associated with the lowest common denominator.

And in turn, when the wargaming community buys everything on internet discounters and not from the store.... we get the wargaming group that buys very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end...

And then they see the MTG/Pokemon card customers who you can run a booster draft tourney or almost guarantee the sales of 2-3 boosters per kid for a 20-30 minute game come in and then the FLGS gives all the tables to card games on weekends as they shift the focus (and real estate) to paying customers... And then wargamers get to rot on Tuesday night in a corner...

Pay where you play is a way to tell your store owner "please don't replace wargaming with pokemon cards!!! Thanks for the service you provide!"

I think minis gamers are used to cash outlay because you need 'stuff' in order to minis game, but RPGers I think are much more used to having one person buy a book/module and share out than to 'everybody buys in' systems.

Totally agree. Usually the GM owns everything and everyone else gets almost no cost of entry. When I did RPGs that is how it was. If someone wanted to play, they bought the game and bought it to the group. Personally, I liked models so I would provide models for the group to make it more fun, but no one in the group had any interest in buying a model or painting it.

You can join a RPG grpup and never pay a dime... except for the occasional bag of cheetos and mountian dew.

sourclams wrote: I regularly see this in pen-paper circles ("Hey, can I have a character sheet/borrow your pencil/use those dice/see your book?"). I have regularly seen a large % of younger or lower income gamers show up with literally nothing to a gaming event. I think this is part of a cultural difference between pen-paper gaming and other types.

And that's fine, unless you're trying to run a game store/event series and this particular demographic feels it is entitled to participate.

That only lasts so long however. One might let one have some character sheets or borrow a book, but if they mooch on a regular basis, you'll see them gone sooner or later. Coming prepared to game after a while is part of the game as well.


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nkelsch wrote:

And in turn, when the wargaming community buys everything on internet discounters and not from the store.... we get the wargaming group that buys very little in the store wishing to occupy space for hours on end...

And then they see the MTG/Pokemon card customers who you can run a booster draft tourney or almost guarantee the sales of 2-3 boosters per kid for a 20-30 minute game come in and then the FLGS gives all the tables to card games on weekends as they shift the focus (and real estate) to paying customers... And then wargamers get to rot on Tuesday night in a corner...

Pay where you play is a way to tell your store owner "please don't replace wargaming with pokemon cards!!! Thanks for the service you provide!"

Doesnt always work. I've seen it time and again even spending money, they eventually will kick you out because of how much space they/we take up. *shrug* Spending money doesnt always guarentee you being replaced.

nkelsch wrote:Good-to-know stuff on tipping

nklesch, just remember that you're post on an international forum. Our ways are certainly not the norm. I've been to France, England, Wales, Italy, and Mexico. What's expected in other countries varies widely.

Back on topic: I've only played 40k in a gaming store twice. Both times, I bought some stuff. Not because of guilt or expectations, but because I knew I was going there that week and had something missing from my list.

When i played Decipher's Star Wars CCG's and we'd have weekly game nights and monthly tournaments, I'd aways buy several packs from my FLGS. I'd even pre-order the newest box-sets from them. It cost 10-20% more than online shopping at that time, but they were providing me a place to play and supported a (at that time) very strong gamer community.

It was never expected that I buy something though. I've never been in the situation where I was told I had to buy something to play there. For tournaments, throwing $5 in the hat was fine because excellent prize support was given and our gaming tables were reserved for tournament days (in a rather busy store). I had absolutely no problem with that. I guess each store has to ask themselves are they getting their money back in the long run.

Come to think of it, most of us in my old RPG group ended up buying our own books. But we're all also mini gamers so we're used to spending a lot on the hobby. And most of us are borderline hoarders...

There's a clear collector mentality in a lot of gamers. Guys with shelves of source books aren't uncommon.

The point is, nobody can be cheap and play minis, or CCGs. You can be pretty cheap and play RPGs.

Paul wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Short answer.

They are being petty.

If I have to buy 10 Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because thats what I wanna field, then WYSIWYG isnt going to allow me to field inappropriate models.

Similarly, for your D&D, do you use store minis or bring your own?

The store is letting them off light asking you buy your own Fortune Deck. They could ask that you purchase your character in the store from Reaper or one of those ranges in order to be WYSIWYG

Or just charge $8 entry.

I think the shop would have been beeter, and had less complaints, AND made more money, if they just said "sorry guys, we are going to have to charge a nominal fee of $8 this time round."

So you'd rather pay $8 for entry, then pay $8 for entry, and some cards?

Popsicle wrote:So you'd rather pay $8 for entry, then pay $8 for entry, and some cards?

There's a certain psychological difference between telling people 'You must pay an entry fee to play' (which people will be fine with so long as they don't feel it's excessive) and 'You must by this particular item from my store in order to play' (which they won't be, if that item is something they don't want'...

The fact that it's the same amount of money is largely irrelevant.

Besides, the store charging a fee to play in that game is better for the store, since all of the money goes straight to that event. Charge an $8 entry fee, the store gets $8 towards the cost of running the event. Require customers to buy an $8 item... the store gets, what? $2-$3 towards the cost of the event, depending on the margin on that particular product.

Yeah, and there's also a difference between stating that an event has value and should be paid for "this costs $8", and making it a throw in for another transaction "this comes free with a deck of cards."

My store generally does it this way: either pay an entrance fee of X dollars, or buy an item from the store worth Y dollars. This ensures that the store sees some compensation for running the event, and lets the user decide if they'd rather just pay the nominal fee or make a slightly larger purchase and get merchandise as well.

No amount of psychology surrounding the subject of "$8 and a pack of cards" is going to make my mind implode.

I can't speak to the store in particular, but it may just be desperation. A lot of gaming stores simply aren't doing very well at all, and rather than go out of business, people are trying stuff they might not have been willing to do before.

There's always been an unwritten rule that you support your FLGS for offering free things like open games, table space, terrain, etc., but I see A LOT of people who "violate" that unwritten rule. One of our FLGS runs the D&D encounters events, and they are ALWAYS well attended. The store goes from say, 16 people to 30+ for those events. I don't see much increase in business on those nights, though. The store carries some D&D books, but not a lot, and not multiple copies of any. I don't think they are seeing a big sales bump from doing it. Running D&D Encounters does allow them to get the D&D books before retail establishments that don't, though.

On the other hand, I've been in the store multiple times (heck, multiple times in the last MONTH), where players brag about not buying anything in the store, but shopping for the best deals online. If enough people violate a social compact, something will change.

Heck, a friend runs a Charity event with a $10 entry fee. There's TONS of opportunities to make additional donations. You can donate more money to "cheat" in every event (Warhammer, Munchkin, etc.). There's also a Charity auction at the event. The best turnout is for the RPGA event. There are more RPGA players than all the other people put together. On the other hand, I don't know that they get ANY money from them "cheating", and we see almost none of them at the auction. Plus, since they play the RPGA event all day, they don't even come to the other events where they might spend 'charity' money. So, just as my perception, the largest group of players generates the least amount of charity, per capita.

This type of behavior, in a retail environment, is unsupportable. I'm not saying that it's wrong, or lazy, or evil, or selfish. I'm just saying that if you do something (events, etc) on the assumption that they will lead to needed revenue, and they don't, you'll stop doing them. I work for a (basically the only) bookstore chain in America. We used to have a lot of extra seating to encourage people to come in, browse, and spend time. This was done on the assumption that this would lead to more sales. People would buy the books they were looking at, they would buy coffee and stuff from the cafe. For a LONG time, that worked. Now, not so much. Whether it is due to the financial downturn, or people not caring about the social compact, or whatever, we now get a lot of people coming into the store and reading all day (seriously, one guy was there today from 10am, when I got there, to 630 pm, when I left). We get people who don't buy ANYTHING, but come in every day until they finish the book they were reading. We get people who hold interviews and meetings at the store, and don't buy anything. We get people who don't buy anything and BRING food in with them. So, a lot of our stores are eliminating those chairs and tables. They are banning sitting on the floors entirely.

Social expectations change. If a company used to see a sales bump when they offered a free benefit, and doesn't see it any more, they might either eliminate the benefit, or eliminate the 'free'. $8 for 13 weeks seems pretty reasonable.

I'm sort of for it... support the playspace and all that.

But get this... an upcoming tournament at a store I go to involves $100 purchases... you pay $100 and then you get a battlebox of your choice and corresponding codex. You play the tournament with only the models provided in the battlebox. Haha talk about your purchases to play. I'd totally play in it but I already have most codeci and I don't think I can rationalize right now more models that I won't paint.

djphranq wrote:But get this... an upcoming tournament at a store I go to involves $100 purchases... you pay $100 and then you get a battlebox of your choice and corresponding codex. You play the tournament with only the models provided in the battlebox.

I'm honestly surprised that they can get this to work. Battle boxes typically 'suck' with weird and whacky model combinations that people don't typically want/need in their collections. Then there's the whole pre-tournament coordination issue of getting people to buy the box, assemble, and show up.

High entry cost requiring relatively long lead time and redundant purchases (for all but the newest hobby entrants) would make this pretty much DOA in my area.

It should be common knowledge that you suppor the place you game at. If your friends want to game at their place for free, then they should take the initiative and set it up.


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sourclams wrote:

djphranq wrote:But get this... an upcoming tournament at a store I go to involves $100 purchases... you pay $100 and then you get a battlebox of your choice and corresponding codex. You play the tournament with only the models provided in the battlebox.

I'm honestly surprised that they can get this to work. Battle boxes typically 'suck' with weird and whacky model combinations that people don't typically want/need in their collections. Then there's the whole pre-tournament coordination issue of getting people to buy the box, assemble, and show up.

High entry cost requiring relatively long lead time and redundant purchases (for all but the newest hobby entrants) would make this pretty much DOA in my area.

We are having something like that at the end of the month - its a Warmachine Battle Box Tournament. The winner gets one of the new Warmachine or if their faction's hasn't been created, then they get an $85 gift card.

Run the right way...

You'll be happy to buy a unit a week, and thank me for the chance to play.

Run wrong...

You'll never come to the shop again.

Your store is being short sighted, and you can tell them that they are !@#$ing stupid and wasting an opportunity to become legendary.

The right way would be to have customers buy into an epic game of whatever your playing. Entery fee would be to buy a unit and paint, put it together and play some skermish level stuff. then every week or so, your store would have ready made encounters for each of the armies, up iin and until the armies in question "Recruited" more units, either by "Making money" in the form of building up units, or playing more andmore games, to the point where your armies are adding in a unit or two a week to the point where your buying, painting and playing, along with the store cultivating the player base with things like "SPECIAL ENCOUNTERS, Skermish nights, dungeon crawls for stuff, fight for the tower, or any number of things that your forces cando to fight for the world your fighting in.

It would be akin to playing a D and D game in miniatures, but escalating it to the point where your building up armies and playing for your added units.

Of course theres the little thing like diplomacy trials, building your little diplomats, and having them do things like buy off mercs, heavy weapons units, monsters, or other armies who are being run by other players, but then again, it is entirly up to the player base to the extent that the store could run these sorts of events.

I played in one such store oh so very long ago...

It was a couple of one off's, but my goblin band was really messing with player parties to the point where I needed to buy in a couple of wolf rider squads, just to start expanding my little guy's reign of terror.

Each table was almost it's own GM's palet, to do what they wanted to, and people could play monsters, or Player Characters, and it turned into a great free for all.

Sometimes, its fun to be an antagonistic GM with an agenda

Our local store has instituted a policy requiring a ten dollar deposit to sign up for a tournament. If you actually show up on the day, you get your ten bucks back. If you don't, then you get ten dollars in store credit. (Which is, I think, a perfect system.)

I don't think it is unreasonable to make freeloaders cough up some dough to play the game. For the OP: I think something like a 'Pay X amount of money to reserve your spot for next week, show up and you get it back. Flake out and we keep your skrillas' policy would be a little better, but still 8 bucks for several weeks is clown shoes. Tell the married couple to grow up.

Grot 6 wrote:Run the right way...

You'll be happy to buy a unit a week, and thank me for the chance to play.

Run wrong...

You'll never come to the shop again.

Your store is being short sighted, and you can tell them that they are !@#$ing stupid and wasting an opportunity to become legendary.

You can run your gaming store however you want...

At some point, stores do get stuck with 'locals' and if your locals are terrible people, no amount of being a great store will change their behaviors. Bad people are simply bad people. When they say "if the store catered to me more, I would shop locally" they are liars and no amount of effort by the store owner will get them to buy things in the store.

$8 is NOT that much. IF someone were to require you to have, say, a legendary unit for apocalypse, I could understand people making a big deal about it. It sounds to me lik they're being cheap.

Especially considering that the cards can be quite useful in the games they play in. They probabaly snack down on 20 bucks of junkfood a night, but that 62 cents is a killer to have to pay out for an evenings entertainment.

mikhaila wrote:. They probabaly snack down on 20 bucks of junkfood a night, ...

And so long as they're buying it in store, there's your problem solved...

lord_blackfang wrote:I think the store is being really clumsy in its attempt to forcefully wrangle a few measly bucks out of regular customers and the loss of respect will cost them a lot more in the long run.

A manager worth his salt would reward participants, not punish them. In my FLGS participants in such events get a discount on related product, and the discount in bigger for new players. Turns out the trick to making money is to make people happy to give it to you, not force them.

I agree with Lord Blackfang. Beowulf, you should tell your store manager this. If a gaming store finds it more likable to take away privileges, then that is a store not worth going to. Customers should be treated nicely, and customers have to return the favor, lest they have a bunch of alternative places they can go to buy products.

insaniak wrote:

mikhaila wrote:. They probabaly snack down on 20 bucks of junkfood a night, ...

And so long as they're buying it in store, there's your problem solved...

If only it were so, but I've seen that most people coming in for RPG's in the stores I've talked to, tend to order pizza, Mcdonalds, or Chick Filet, and bring a lot of their own snacks, tea, and soda. A store with snacks can make some money off them selling things. (Mine being an exception, even if our lease allowed, there is way too many food places in a mall to make it worthwhile.)

Addressing the subject of the thread since I haven't read the whole thing:

It depends. If it's something specific that I absolutely will use in the event and likely use after, then sure. If it's not something useful, I'd prefer to pay an entry fee. Of course, I'd rather not pay anything at all, but at the same time I support the game stores I play at by buying my game supplies there.

mikhaila wrote:If only it were so, but I've seen that most people coming in for RPG's in the stores I've talked to, tend to order pizza, Mcdonalds, or Chick Filet, and bring a lot of their own snacks, tea, and soda. A store with snacks can make some money off them selling things. (Mine being an exception, even if our lease allowed, there is way too many food places in a mall to make it worthwhile.)

The store I worked at years back sold all the usual snack food and drinks, and just barred customers from bringing in from outside anything that we sold. So they could still have their pizza and whatnot, but were generally pretty happy with just buying our (mostly reasonably priced) snacks.

Admittedly it probably helped that we were in a basement shop, across the road from the mall... so buying from anywhere else (other than coffee from the cafe upstairs) meant climbing a flight of stairs and crossing the road.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:I think the store is being really clumsy in its attempt to forcefully wrangle a few measly bucks out of regular customers and the loss of respect will cost them a lot more in the long run.

A manager worth his salt would reward participants, not punish them. In my FLGS participants in such events get a discount on related product, and the discount in bigger for new players. Turns out the trick to making money is to make people happy to give it to you, not force them.

I agree with Lord Blackfang. Beowulf, you should tell your store manager this. If a gaming store finds it more likable to take away privileges, then that is a store not worth going to. Customers should be treated nicely, and customers have to return the favor, lest they have a bunch of alternative places they can go to buy products.

and customers have to return the favor This part seems to be the weak link in the deal. Everyone wants a nice air conditioned store to play in for free, with comfy chairs and no strings attatched. But they don't always return the favor, and some never do. It seems silly to have to state it, but: Returning the favor means buying stuff from the store! When that doesn't happen, you're going to see stores try to weed out the dead beats by making them pay the whopping huge fee of 62 cents a week.

I am amazed at all the chest thumping and gamer drama that the situation the OP described has created. 7.98 for a 13 week season of gaming in the store? And people are whining about it? Skip one double expresso cinamon late and you cover the cost.

mikhaila wrote:I am amazed at all the chest thumping and gamer drama that the situation the OP described has created. 7.98 for a 13 week season of gaming in the store? And people are whining about it? Skip one double expresso cinamon late and you cover the cost.

Are you really surprised? A sizable proportion of gamers are incredibly cheap and will always try to get something for nothing (unless you count being graced by their presence at payment). I came to this realization when I was approached by a fellow weekly 40k player at my FLGS back in 3rd edition when I commented about possibly starting a second army. This was during the days of anyone opening up a games "store" in their closet via distributors to get the discount... He gave me his card in the middle of the games store that he played at on a weekly basis for years before and after (including that very day) to try to get me to buy from him at a 30% discount instead of the store. That was his "thank you" to the owners for running a well stocked, well run games store with room for a dozen 40k sized tables. A set of cards that are meant for use in the encounter or a gift certificate for the store if you already have them is not punishing players.

Most people are incredibly cheap

Fixed.

And hell, one of those cards may help your 12 level Assassin/demi-demon/Paladin to beat up that pesky boss down in the 19th level of the Pit of ultimate doom.

Personally, if I was playing, I'd be buying packs every week and spending them in the game like a drunken sailor in a 2 dollar whorehouse.

My local GW had a tournement last month for Space Hulk where you had to have either terminators or genestealers and had either bought them for the tournement or spent $50 within the last week. Safe to say, not many people came.

I will say the card thing is not unreasonable at all.

Happygrunt wrote:My local GW had a tournement last month for Space Hulk where you had to have either terminators or genestealers and had either bought them for the tournement or spent $50 within the last week. Safe to say, not many people came.

Yeah, $50 is waaaay too much for a single local one day event without mega prize support and is pretty much the opposite of what the OP mentioned here (a multimonth series of events costs less than a buck a week).

mikhaila wrote:Personally, if I was playing, I'd be buying packs every week and spending them in the game like a drunken sailor in a 2 dollar whorehouse.

Wait, wait... you can spend these cards for better in-game effects at any time?? They're not just some booster supplement?

Dear god, I'd be shelling out $20 a day to crush my way through scenarios by brute 'loot' force!

sourclams wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Personally, if I was playing, I'd be buying packs every week and spending them in the game like a drunken sailor in a 2 dollar whorehouse.

Wait, wait... you can spend these cards for better in-game effects at any time?? They're not just some booster supplement?

Dear god, I'd be shelling out $20 a day to crush my way through scenarios by brute 'loot' force!

While I haven't actually played with them myself, I've read a few review of them. They basically are drawn randomly from the deck and give you additional effects in the RPG. Some of the common ones (they have different levels of rarity) have a benefit at the expense of a disadvantage while the rare ones tend to just icing on the cake with no downside. They're not one use only as Mikhalia's post seems to be hinting at (although I don't think he means to). You don't have to give them permanently to the DM so buying multiple packs just gets you more of those rares I mentioned above.