Tau lore references that the Tau Empire's technology is extremely advanced compared to other races and is continuing to increase and develop as the Tau expand. If this is true, why are the Tau the underdog of Warhammer 40K? Is this why they are able to expand so rapidly?
They are the underdogs as they hold only about a hundred planets and have yet to develop an effective FTL. Tau tech is also not as advanced as it's made out to be, as has been argued multiple times while I've been on the dakka.
TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).
I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.
TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).
I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.
Because you're thinking only in terms of Imperial technology that is currently utilized in widespread forms.
By and large, the majority of the technology that the Tau are developing or utilizing has at one point been utilized by the Imperium. The only thing is that the Tau's technology works better on a 'small scale' where production isn't outstripped by demand.
The Imperium has gone far past that point, to where production to suit the demand is the priority rather than innovation.
Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.
This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?
They understand, by and large, how most of the technology that they produce works. The problem surfaces with stuff from the Golden Age of Humanity, which has no STCs to describe how it works.
They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.
Also because the biggest reason that they are a threat to the Imperium is their philosophy. Seriously. The most dangerous thing, in the Imperium's eyes, about the Tau is their philosophy.
Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.
This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?
They understand, by and large, how most of the technology that they produce works. The problem surfaces with stuff from the Golden Age of Humanity, which has no STCs to describe how it works.
They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.
Also because the biggest reason that they are a threat to the Imperium is their philosophy. Seriously. The most dangerous thing, in the Imperium's eyes, about the Tau is their philosophy.
The singing and dancing is not the reason. (I dosen't help though) It's because they just forgot a lot of it. They have to launch crusades to find their own technology and they aren't able to build anything new. (bolting weapons on tanks is not building something new)
I agree with you about the the philosophy thing. The tau's outlook is their most powerful weapon. I mean it gave them the kroot, the ion cannon.
They have to launch crusades to find their own technology and they aren't able to build anything new. (bolting weapons on tanks is not building something new)
TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).
I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.
Because you're thinking only in terms of Imperial technology that is currently utilized in widespread forms.
By and large, the majority of the technology that the Tau are developing or utilizing has at one point been utilized by the Imperium. The only thing is that the Tau's technology works better on a 'small scale' where production isn't outstripped by demand.
The Imperium has gone far past that point, to where production to suit the demand is the priority rather than innovation.
They have vastly different production standards.
For all we know, they may never have to give up quality for quantity, which the Imperium wouldn't have to even do if they didn't shroud themselves in dogma. This is all speculation though...
I guess my biggest gripe here is I see nothing from the official fluff that states Imperial Technology is superior to Tau technology, yet I always see people saying something that goes against official fluff. Saying the Imperium had rail guns on fleet ships isn't the same at all, in any way to having them in your hands. I could say the U.S. Navy has a laser mounted on a battleship, would that make us as advanced as an alien walking around with a laser gun melting everyone? Hell no.
I'd say the Tau are way ahead of humans in terms of technology. They have taken weapons that we put on fleet craft into the hands of ground troops. They are smaller, but they are damned lethal. Humanity leads them in sciences surrounding the warp and bio-engineering, but again both are more religion to humans then actual sciences.
I think of Tau as the humans before the war against the men of Iron. Relying on science and AI to get the job done.
Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.
This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?
They understand, by and large, how most of the technology that they produce works. The problem surfaces with stuff from the Golden Age of Humanity, which has no STCs to describe how it works.
They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.
Also because the biggest reason that they are a threat to the Imperium is their philosophy. Seriously. The most dangerous thing, in the Imperium's eyes, about the Tau is their philosophy.
The singing and dancing is not the reason. (I dosen't help though) It's because they just forgot a lot of it. They have to launch crusades to find their own technology
"Launching crusades to find their own technology" isn't that absurd when you look at the timeframe involved. Humanity once spanned the stars, with colonies damn near everywhere. We're talking tens of thousands of years separating when the main repositories of knowledge were lost. Mostly because the archives on Mars are fragmented from the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife following it. Finding an intact Standard Template Constructor and the blueprints it possesses is worth almost anything to the Imperium and Martian Priesthood simply because it brings them one step closer to being able to manufacture what they need to more efficiently.
and they aren't able to build anything new. (bolting weapons on tanks is not building something new)
Uh...huh. Who do you think builds those weapons that get "bolted on tanks"?
The Laser Destroyer, to use an example, is a piece of technology that is "lost". The only reason they don't take them apart to figure out how to build more is because of the importance of the Laser Destroyer weapon.
TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).
I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.
Because you're thinking only in terms of Imperial technology that is currently utilized in widespread forms.
By and large, the majority of the technology that the Tau are developing or utilizing has at one point been utilized by the Imperium. The only thing is that the Tau's technology works better on a 'small scale' where production isn't outstripped by demand.
The Imperium has gone far past that point, to where production to suit the demand is the priority rather than innovation.
They have vastly different production standards.
For all we know, they may never have to give up quality for quantity, which the Imperium wouldn't have to even do if they didn't shroud themselves in dogma. This is all speculation though...
It's not dogma that sets the Imperium back. It's necessity. Why divert production lines from Lasguns to an experimental weapon that might or might not pan out?
I guess my biggest gripe here is I see nothing from the official fluff that states Imperial Technology is superior to Tau technology, yet I always see people saying something that goes against official fluff. Saying the Imperium had rail guns on fleet ships isn't the same at all, in any way to having them in your hands. I could say the U.S. Navy has a laser mounted on a battleship, would that make us as advanced as an alien walking around with a laser gun melting everyone? Hell no.
I'd say the Tau are way ahead of humans in terms of technology. They have taken weapons that we put on fleet craft into the hands of ground troops. They are smaller, but they are damned lethal. Humanity leads them in sciences surrounding the warp and bio-engineering, but again both are more religion to humans then actual sciences.
However, when we have fluff of the Great Crusade with Imperial Army troops utilizing kinetic penetrator weapons that could hull Leman Russ tanks, albeit as "squad support weapons" like Lascannons/Meltaguns--then yes, we can safely say that Imperial Technology was superior to Tau technology
The problem is that Tau players, and you in particular, make this big huge deal out of the fact that "it's miniaturized, it's miniaturized!" and then go on to state that simply having the tech puts them ahead of the Imperium. Having the tech and miniaturizing it in small scale production is one thing. Making it into mass production to where every single one of your troopers is a totally different thing. Railrifles are not common in the Tau force, they're only fielded by Pathfinders and the fluff on them is that they're "experimental".
I think of Tau as the humans before the war against the men of Iron. Relying on science and AI to get the job done.
God I can't wait for the machines to rebel then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The importance of the weapon is insignificant to understanding how to reverse engineer them with nigh unlimited resources from the Imperium.
Except resources mean nothing when you can't actually produce the thing in quantities that would make it viable to use in the scale that the Imperium would be using it.
It is dogma and religion that constantly get in the way of progress with the IoM.
Er no. It's demand outstripping supply and being unable to sacrifice the item in demand to use as a production model.
Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.
The Boltgun has not been countered by this.
Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.
The Boltgun has not been countered by this.
Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.
But that isn't due to technological disadvantage. If they wanted the Tau could churn out Russes by the millions, but they don't; they specialise each unit's role.
Also, if Gorgon countered Pulse Rifles that easily then it's a matter of time before all lasguns become useless. Theoretically you could hold up a mirror to them and it the round would bounce off. You could even angle it to return the round to the sender.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.
The Boltgun has not been countered by this.
Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.
But that isn't due to technological disadvantage.
Did I say it was? No. So kindly read a post before replying.
If they wanted the Tau could churn out Russes by the millions, but they don't; they specialise each unit's role.
Because specialization is effective for a force that has a relatively easier defined role, a relatively easier to maintain production line, etc etc.
I've said it before. I guess I'll have to friggin' say it again here.
The Imperium and the Tau Empire's equipment cannot be directly compared, by and large. They are producing and equipping two completely different forces.
The Imperium is equipping and maintaining a force that is designed to utilize prolonged sieges, extensive defensive works, and if necessary--Astartes support.
The Tau is equipping and maintaining a force that avoids prolonged sieges, utilizes extensive ambushes and fields their own equivalents of the Astartes support that the Guard does not have at their beck and call at all times.
The Tau, at this point in time, is comparable to the UNSC or Colonial Marines that we've seen portrayed in Halo and Aliens. They're not able to withstand extensive casualties, they pick and choose their battles.
The Imperium, however, is comparable to the Republic that we saw portrayed in the Star Wars prequels. They have near-limitless supplies of manpower and are trying to equip a force that can act anywhere that it would be necessary with a minimal adaptation to the forces utilized.
Also, if Gorgon countered Pulse Rifles that easily then it's a matter of time before all lasguns become useless. Theoretically you could hold up a mirror to them and it would become useless.
Annnnd?
That doesn't change the effectiveness of Heavy Bolters, Mortars, Rocket Launchers, or Autocannons/Autoguns which the Guard can field in large numbers.
The reason Gorgon "countered" Pulse Rifles was because the Tau almost exclusively utilize energy weapons. Gorgon pulled a Replicators to the Tau's Asgard, if I can use an SG-1 comparison.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.
Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.
Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.
It isn't an energy based weapon so no thermal energy it does have a good amount of kinetic energy and the explosive shell afterward. I'd rather have a handheld rapid firing artillery piece then a rifle.
One of the arguments I always question is that the IoM adapted their tech differently or that they adapt it perfectly to them. That they are perfectly happy giving their troops lasguns and don't want them to have better stuff. The IoM dosen't have that much control of their tech.
The IoM didn't make lasguns to mesh with their human wave tactics. They developed human wave tactics because they are stuck with a under performing lasgun. If they wanted to change, they couldn't.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.
Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.
Whoever described it as such should be beaten with a wet noodle then, because the Boltgun is far from being "akin to an artillery piece than a rifle".
Boltguns, when described in fluff that isn't written by an author who should be writing in crayon, are far more like the anti-tank guns fielded during WW1/WW2 or the large caliber anti-material rifles fielded today. Even if they do not detonate and kill you, the round itself will tear a hole through you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:One of the arguments I always question is that the IoM adapted their tech differently or that they adapt it perfectly to them. That they are perfectly happy giving their troops lasguns and don't want them to have better stuff. The IoM dosen't have that much control of their tech.
They do not have it now. They did have it, however, when the Lasgun was being issued over the Hellguns, solid slug weapons, grenade launchers with the fire rates of LMGs, etc.
The IoM didn't make lasguns to mesh with their human wave tactics. They developed human wave tactics because they are stuck with a under performing lasgun. If they wanted to change, they couldn't.
Wrong.
It all comes down to durability and supply. Why is the AK a weapon that is utilized by forces operating in desert or hostile climates?
Because you can do all kinds of nasty things to them and they keep going. A Lasgun is, much like an AK, virtually idiot-proof. It's also able to be recharged simply by laying the powerpacks in the sun, or if you need it right then and there by tossing it into a fire.
A Hellgun, which is more comparable to a Pulse Rifle, by comparison requires specialized training in the maintenance and usage of the weapon. It requires a great deal of TLC in the field, and the backpack mounted power cells aren't just there so you can carry a few dozen extra pounds. It's for the cooling systems needed to prevent the damn thing from overheating and fusing the powercell and operator together.
FTL = Faster Than Light ( and light travels 300.000 km/s, in short it takes the light 8 minutes from the Sun to Earth ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
K262 wrote:Tau lore references that the Tau Empire's technology is extremely advanced compared to other races and is continuing to increase and develop as the Tau expand. If this is true, why are the Tau the underdog of Warhammer 40K? Is this why they are able to expand so rapidly?
Because they don't hold many worlds ( around 100 and only 26 have population in billions, others have population probably in millions ), there are not much of them compare to other races ( even Eldar are more numerous ) and their tech is advanced but their FTL drive is slow compared to other races.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
The only race to truly have FTL travel is the Necrons at the moment.
Aren't their tech basically teleporting to large distances in a blink of a second?
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.
The Boltgun has not been countered by this.
Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.
But that isn't due to technological disadvantage.
Did I say it was? No. So kindly read a post before replying.
The thread title is "Tau Technology" and nomotog was talking about how the Tau advance their tech while the IoM doesn't. I think you can excuse me for thinking you were talking about technology.
If they wanted the Tau could churn out Russes by the millions, but they don't; they specialise each unit's role.
Because specialization is effective for a force that has a relatively easier defined role, a relatively easier to maintain production line, etc etc.
I've said it before. I guess I'll have to friggin' say it again here.
The Imperium and the Tau Empire's equipment cannot be directly compared, by and large. They are producing and equipping two completely different forces.
The Imperium is equipping and maintaining a force that is designed to utilize prolonged sieges, extensive defensive works, and if necessary--Astartes support.
The Tau is equipping and maintaining a force that avoids prolonged sieges, utilizes extensive ambushes and fields their own equivalents of the Astartes support that the Guard does not have at their beck and call at all times.
The Tau, at this point in time, is comparable to the UNSC or Colonial Marines that we've seen portrayed in Halo and Aliens. They're not able to withstand extensive casualties, they pick and choose their battles.
The Imperium, however, is comparable to the Republic that we saw portrayed in the Star Wars prequels. They have near-limitless supplies of manpower and are trying to equip a force that can act anywhere that it would be necessary with a minimal adaptation to the forces utilized.
If they can't be compared, then why were you comparing them? By that logic this whole arguement is pointless.
Also, if Gorgon countered Pulse Rifles that easily then it's a matter of time before all lasguns become useless. Theoretically you could hold up a mirror to them and it would become useless.
Annnnd?
That doesn't change the effectiveness of Heavy Bolters, Mortars, Rocket Launchers, or Autocannons/Autoguns which the Guard can field in large numbers.
The reason Gorgon "countered" Pulse Rifles was because the Tau almost exclusively utilize energy weapons. Gorgon pulled a Replicators to the Tau's Asgard, if I can use an SG-1 comparison.
I have no idea what SG-1.
Anyway, plasma, ion, railgun, missile, EMP, fusion, neutron, flame and solid slug weaponry are all used by the Tau in large numbers and all damage in mostly different ways. You can't get some kind of energy umbrella and become immune to most of what they throw at you.
Also, quit with the passive-aggressive tone.
nomotog wrote:
The singing and dancing is not the reason. (I dosen't help though) It's because they just forgot a lot of it.
If apocalypse happened to Earth and we get throw back to stone age you think we would remember how to build Super Computer right after the apocalypse ends? History told us that understanding for past things can be very difficult thing ( even today we don't know how many long dead people lived or what did they use for tools ), and that is what people don't understand - they forget it because the Fall of the Eldar cause warp storms on such scale that worlds became cut one from another and people stingle to survive. And afetr many centuries past none remembered how stuff works because none has left alive with that knowledge, they could only guess that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:Eldar have the highest technology, however it is dependant largely on their space magic and they are not developing it.
Necrons have the most advanced tech in the galaxy. Eldar don't have their FTL drive even nothing to match their weapons.
But 2 races have something in common - they can build anything new ( Necrons are moslt rain dead while Eldar tech was gift from the old ones. They don't know how to replicate it ).
The example was that the Tau have gone "beyond" such primitive natures.
Plasma, Ion, EMP, fusion, and neutron weapons are going to do jack against an enemy that's evolved to counter energy weapons.
Railguns, Missiles, flame, and solid slug weaponry are NOT used by the Tau in large numbers. The Tau had to ditch their Pulse Rifles to pick up Kroot Rifles, that pretty much tells me all I need to know.
If they can't be compared, then why were you comparing them? By that logic this whole arguement is pointless.
You're right. It is. Maybe it's time people realize, however, that Tau are NOT the dominant technological race in the universe. They are, however as it's been said time and time again in the Tau Codex, advancing at a remarkable pace. It's the whole basis behind the Tau--they're advancing far faster than they should be, and there's no explanation as to why that can be offered by the Imperium's observers or even the Eldar's observers.
The thread title is "Tau Technology" and nomotog was talking about how the Tau advance their tech while the IoM doesn't. I think you can excuse me for thinking you were talking about technology.
And if you'd read the post I was replying to, you'd understand why it wasn't about "a technological disadvantage".
The Tau don't utilize boltguns or Leman Russes because they don't use the same approach to warfare that the Imperium uses. They don't sheath their shock troops, who deploy via Drop Pods, in layers of ceramite armor and give them Boltgun equivalents.
The Tau utilize their shock troops(the Crisis variants) to exploit or create openings in static defensive lines to ensure that the following attacks are not going to break against the threats the Crisis Suits encountered.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.
Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.
Whoever described it as such should be beaten with a wet noodle then, because the Boltgun is far from being "akin to an artillery piece than a rifle".
Boltguns, when described in fluff that isn't written by an author who should be writing in crayon, are far more like the anti-tank guns fielded during WW1/WW2 or the large caliber anti-material rifles fielded today. Even if they do not detonate and kill you, the round itself will tear a hole through you.
I was referring to the pulse rifle.
Source: 40k wiki. Oops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:One of the arguments I always question is that the IoM adapted their tech differently or that they adapt it perfectly to them. That they are perfectly happy giving their troops lasguns and don't want them to have better stuff. The IoM dosen't have that much control of their tech.
They do not have it now. They did have it, however, when the Lasgun was being issued over the Hellguns, solid slug weapons, grenade launchers with the fire rates of LMGs, etc.
Just wanted to point out that we have those today. They're pretty old now. And they're so fething awesome.
nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.
On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.
Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.
Whoever described it as such should be beaten with a wet noodle then, because the Boltgun is far from being "akin to an artillery piece than a rifle".
Boltguns, when described in fluff that isn't written by an author who should be writing in crayon, are far more like the anti-tank guns fielded during WW1/WW2 or the large caliber anti-material rifles fielded today. Even if they do not detonate and kill you, the round itself will tear a hole through you.
I was referring to the pulse rifle.
Source: 40k wiki. Oops.
Well there's your problem.
nomotog wrote:One of the arguments I always question is that the IoM adapted their tech differently or that they adapt it perfectly to them. That they are perfectly happy giving their troops lasguns and don't want them to have better stuff. The IoM dosen't have that much control of their tech.
They do not have it now. They did have it, however, when the Lasgun was being issued over the Hellguns, solid slug weapons, grenade launchers with the fire rates of LMGs, etc.
Just wanted to point out that we have those today. They're pretty old now. And they're so fething awesome.
I'm aware. They first started being used in what, 1972 or thereabouts?
Kanluwen wrote:The example was that the Tau have gone "beyond" such primitive natures.
Plasma, Ion, EMP, fusion, and neutron weapons are going to do jack against an enemy that's evolved to counter energy weapons.
Railguns, Missiles, flame, and solid slug weaponry are NOT used by the Tau in large numbers. The Tau had to ditch their Pulse Rifles to pick up Kroot Rifles, that pretty much tells me all I need to know.
Firstly, you can't evolve to counter energy weapons. Plasma, ion, EMP, fusion and neutron tech work completely differently and kill in completely different ways. To counter them, you need to evolve to counter all kinds of thermal, electrical, kinetic etc energy as well as all forms of radiation to counter "energy weapons". You'd have to be almost indestructible.
Secondly, missiles are used in large numbers (seeker missiles and SMS mounted on most vehicles-Skyrays, Hammerheads, Barricudas, Tiger sharks etc- as well as the missile pods mounted on many Crisis suits), as are Railguns (all known vehicles apart from Pirahnas, Skyrays and Barricudas can and usually do use them, as do Broadsides obviously), and flamers are commonly used on XV8s.
Edit: And solid slug weapons are used in large numbers. Most of their allied races and their Railguns utilise solid slugs.
If they can't be compared, then why were you comparing them? By that logic this whole arguement is pointless.
You're right. It is. Maybe it's time people realize, however, that Tau are NOT the dominant technological race in the universe. They are, however as it's been said time and time again in the Tau Codex, advancing at a remarkable pace. It's the whole basis behind the Tau--they're advancing far faster than they should be, and there's no explanation as to why that can be offered by the Imperium's observers or even the Eldar's observers.
I know.
The thread title is "Tau Technology" and nomotog was talking about how the Tau advance their tech while the IoM doesn't. I think you can excuse me for thinking you were talking about technology.
And if you'd read the post I was replying to, you'd understand why it wasn't about "a technological disadvantage".
The Tau don't utilize boltguns or Leman Russes because they don't use the same approach to warfare that the Imperium uses. They don't sheath their shock troops, who deploy via Drop Pods, in layers of ceramite armor and give them Boltgun equivalents.
The Tau utilize their shock troops(the Crisis variants) to exploit or create openings in static defensive lines to ensure that the following attacks are not going to break against the threats the Crisis Suits encountered.
Nomotog never mentioned that in his post, so I assumed you were stating that their flexibility was evidence of
The hive fleet adapted to everything thrown at it. Saying a bolter would of worked is wrong. It adapted to everything...
In a single battle they swapped weapons out from some fallen kroot that temporarily worked, but even then, having to switch out ammo types suggests that solid shot slugs grew to be worthless too. About the only weaponry that would of stood a chance and actually did was Necron.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Gorgon is a poor example to use.
The hive fleet adapted to everything thrown at it. Saying a bolter would of worked is wrong. It adapted to everything...
In a single battle they swapped weapons out from some fallen kroot that temporarily worked, but even then, having to switch out ammo types suggests that solid shot slugs grew to be worthless too. About the only weaponry that would of stood a chance and actually did was Necron.
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
Kanluwen wrote:
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
It seems as though he Tau have a large versitality of weaponry, but all of it is in the beginning stages of development, kind of. How would it be if the Tau numbers matched that of the Imperium of Man? Would there be a co-existence, or (which seems much more likely) would there be all out war between the two? Who would win, based on technology as of now?
Kanluwen wrote:
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
Thank the Emperor for Lasguns
Laser would have been nerfed just as badly as plasma. In fact, the shiny sheen would have deflected the bolts altogether, the heat resistance wouldn't have been needed.
Kanluwen wrote:
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
Thank the Emperor for Lasguns
Laser would have been nerfed just as badly as plasma. In fact, the shiny sheen would have deflected the bolts altogether, the heat resistance wouldn't have been needed.
Exactly, which is why the piece in question kind of hints at the Heavy Weapons that the Guard had with them as being the thing that 'turned the tide'.
K262 wrote:What about the Tau heavy weapons though, namely the Broadsides and Hammerheads that carry railguns with solid rounds?
What good do they do against huge hordes of critters? Railgun rounds can penetrate, but they lose power as they do.
Only the Hammerheads carried munition rounds, which would be able to put a stop to the huge hordes of smaller critters--and that's them not firing on the large critters or firing a round that might rip through the heavier creatures.
Plus, for all we know, the force in question had no Hammerheads or Broadsides.
Kanluwen wrote:
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
Thank the Emperor for Lasguns
Laser would have been nerfed just as badly as plasma. In fact, the shiny sheen would have deflected the bolts altogether, the heat resistance wouldn't have been needed.
Exactly, which is why the piece in question kind of hints at the Heavy Weapons that the Guard had with them as being the thing that 'turned the tide'.
Okay, in the Tau Codex, it clearly states that the mechanicus have higher tech than the tau, but the tau are catching up with them at an advanced rate. At times, it even surpasses imperial tech, but NOT ALWAYS. I've been playing tau and reading the codex long enough to know that the tau may not be the most advanced , but they one day may be. As of now, the imperium is barely ahead of them, but don't understand much of their own work.
K262 wrote:What about the Tau heavy weapons though, namely the Broadsides and Hammerheads that carry railguns with solid rounds?
What good do they do against huge hordes of critters? Railgun rounds can penetrate, but they lose power as they do.
Only the Hammerheads carried munition rounds, which would be able to put a stop to the huge hordes of smaller critters--and that's them not firing on the large critters or firing a round that might rip through the heavier creatures.
Plus, for all we know, the force in question had no Hammerheads or Broadsides.
Railguns lose power as they penetrate, but the massive amount of power they start with means you can point and shoot and it'll tear a line straight through the horde several hundred metres long.
Also I highly doubt that they had no HHs or Broadsides. They're almost always present at large engagements.
Plus the Kroot weapons and ion weapons and flamers and missiles that would be there would still be effective. However, if you become resistant to Pulse weaponry then you've knocked out all their suppressive fire and prevented them from performing one of the most important roles in a battle..
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Gorgon is a poor example to use.
The hive fleet adapted to everything thrown at it. Saying a bolter would of worked is wrong. It adapted to everything...
In a single battle they swapped weapons out from some fallen kroot that temporarily worked, but even then, having to switch out ammo types suggests that solid shot slugs grew to be worthless too. About the only weaponry that would of stood a chance and actually did was Necron.
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
The Tau weapons worked awesome the first time they used them too.
Had the IG fought Gorgon for about a month they would of been fixing bayonets by about week 2.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Gorgon is a poor example to use.
The hive fleet adapted to everything thrown at it. Saying a bolter would of worked is wrong. It adapted to everything...
In a single battle they swapped weapons out from some fallen kroot that temporarily worked, but even then, having to switch out ammo types suggests that solid shot slugs grew to be worthless too. About the only weaponry that would of stood a chance and actually did was Necron.
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
The Tau weapons worked awesome the first time they used them too.
The Pulse Rifles worked "awesome" for about half a month. Then the Tyranids evolved a resistance to them.
Had the IG fought Gorgon for about a month they would of been fixing bayonets by about week 2.
You're right, because they would have ran out of solid rounds. The Tyranids have yet to evolve a bulletproof vest that repels Heavy Bolter and Autocannon rounds.
killykavekommando wrote:Okay, in the Tau Codex, it clearly states that the mechanicus have higher tech than the tau, but the tau are catching up with them at an advanced rate. At times, it even surpasses imperial tech, but NOT ALWAYS. I've been playing tau and reading the codex long enough to know that the tau may not be the most advanced , but they one day may be. As of now, the imperium is barely ahead of them, but don't understand much of their own work.
The comical entry also cites part of their inferiority in being that they lack the praise to a fake machine spirit. The AdMech entry is in the context of comedy, much like an Guardsmens primer it isn't meant to be a super factual article.
It states that Tau weaponry meets and exceeds Imperial standards but blames it on heresy.
I'd say its safe to say that the AdMech while in possession of a few decent pieces of machinery isn't on par with Tau R & D.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Gorgon is a poor example to use.
The hive fleet adapted to everything thrown at it. Saying a bolter would of worked is wrong. It adapted to everything...
In a single battle they swapped weapons out from some fallen kroot that temporarily worked, but even then, having to switch out ammo types suggests that solid shot slugs grew to be worthless too. About the only weaponry that would of stood a chance and actually did was Necron.
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
The Tau weapons worked awesome the first time they used them too.
The Pulse Rifles worked "awesome" for about half a month. Then the Tyranids evolved a resistance to them.
Had the IG fought Gorgon for about a month they would of been fixing bayonets by about week 2.
You're right, because they would have ran out of solid rounds. The Tyranids have yet to evolve a bulletproof vest that repels Heavy Bolter and Autocannon rounds.[u]
They did, apart from Battlesuit sensors, they were invisible for a while too. Which is a great way to not get shot.
Kroot Rifles only worked because Pulse Rifles are what had been adapted too. What suggests that Gorgon wouldn't of evolved protection against a solid slug? Assuming that they hadn't already from Broadsides, Seeker Missiles and Smart Missile Systems?
killykavekommando wrote:Okay, in the Tau Codex, it clearly states that the mechanicus have higher tech than the tau, but the tau are catching up with them at an advanced rate. At times, it even surpasses imperial tech, but NOT ALWAYS. I've been playing tau and reading the codex long enough to know that the tau may not be the most advanced , but they one day may be. As of now, the imperium is barely ahead of them, but don't understand much of their own work.
The comical entry also cites part of their inferiority in being that they lack the praise to a fake machine spirit. The AdMech entry is in the context of comedy, much like an Guardsmens primer it isn't meant to be a super factual article.
It states that Tau weaponry meets and exceeds Imperial standards but blames it on heresy.
I'd say its safe to say that the AdMech while in possession of a few decent pieces of machinery isn't on par with Tau R & D.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Gorgon is a poor example to use.
The hive fleet adapted to everything thrown at it. Saying a bolter would of worked is wrong. It adapted to everything...
In a single battle they swapped weapons out from some fallen kroot that temporarily worked, but even then, having to switch out ammo types suggests that solid shot slugs grew to be worthless too. About the only weaponry that would of stood a chance and actually did was Necron.
Remember how the Imperial Guard that fought 'alongside' the Tau had success?
I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't because they "swapped out ammo types", since they commonly aren't given variable shells for Autocannons/Heavy Bolters.
The Tau weapons worked awesome the first time they used them too.
The Pulse Rifles worked "awesome" for about half a month. Then the Tyranids evolved a resistance to them.
Had the IG fought Gorgon for about a month they would of been fixing bayonets by about week 2.
You're right, because they would have ran out of solid rounds. The Tyranids have yet to evolve a bulletproof vest that repels Heavy Bolter and Autocannon rounds.[u]
They did, apart from Battlesuit sensors, they were invisible for a while too. Which is a great way to not get shot.
Kroot Rifles only worked because Pulse Rifles are what had been adapted too. What suggests that Gorgon wouldn't of evolved protection against a solid slug? Assuming that they hadn't already from Broadsides, Seeker Missiles and Smart Missile Systems?
Honestly if it says it in your own codex I don't know why your arguing, somebody put the actual quote up as I don't have a Tau dex then we can settle this. Mechanicus have vortex missile and grenades, computers with almost infinite data storage, augmentations that let their members live for hundreds of years compared to a Tau's 40, and a better FTL than the Tau. the machine spirit isn't fake it's a semi AI created because they have a bad history with full AI, IOM tech such as land raiders have shown personality in quite a few pieces of fluff.
If Tyranids can apparently rapidly evolve so easily to deflect pulse rounds, why haven't they evolved to resist or repell bolter rounds? It seems like somewhat of a plot hole...
K262 wrote:If Tyranids can apparently rapidly evolve so easily to deflect pulse rounds, why haven't they evolved to resist or repel bolter rounds? It seems like somewhat of a plot hole...
Because it wasn't evolving to "deflect" pulse rounds. It was evolving to mitigate them.
I went back and reread it, but they essentially developed a pocket of a 'gel' underneath the carapace that mitigated the heat of the pulse round impact and the radiation accompanying it.
You can't really evolve to resist a kinetic round being shot at you and taking a hole out of your body, at least beyond evolving armor.
Someone should mention that the tau didn't build all of their tech. They reverse engineered their warp drive (porly). and they where gifted the ion cannon (that they then made in miniature).
nomotog wrote:Someone should mention that the tau didn't build all of their tech. They reverse engineered their warp drive (poorly). and they where gifted the ion cannon (that they then made in miniature).
We don't actually know that they were gifted the Ion Cannon technology and they miniaturized it. The Demiurg might have given them all of it barring the Cyclic Ion thingamajigger.
But, they are capable of such feats as reverse engineering complicated machinery. So, would they not have the capability of creating their own using gleaned knowledge as well improving existing systems. How quickly did reverse engineer it (according to the lore if it states that)?
K262 wrote:What about the Tau heavy weapons though, namely the Broadsides and Hammerheads that carry railguns with solid rounds?
What good do they do against huge hordes of critters? Railgun rounds can penetrate, but they lose power as they do.
Only the Hammerheads carried munition rounds, which would be able to put a stop to the huge hordes of smaller critters--and that's them not firing on the large critters or firing a round that might rip through the heavier creatures.
Plus, for all we know, the force in question had no Hammerheads or Broadsides.
Railguns lose power as they penetrate, but the massive amount of power they start with means you can point and shoot and it'll tear a line straight through the horde several hundred metres long.
Also I highly doubt that they had no HHs or Broadsides. They're almost always present at large engagements.
Plus the Kroot weapons and ion weapons and flamers and missiles that would be there would still be effective. However, if you become resistant to Pulse weaponry then you've knocked out all their suppressive fire and prevented them from performing one of the most important roles in a battle..
I think Kan means that Railgun is not the gun for Hordes. It will surely kill 1 Tyranid, but until it reloads the other 99999999 will nom him. Guard bolter heavy weapon is half strong but firing rapidly and it's good for masses.
K262 wrote:What about the Tau heavy weapons though, namely the Broadsides and Hammerheads that carry railguns with solid rounds?
What good do they do against huge hordes of critters? Railgun rounds can penetrate, but they lose power as they do.
Only the Hammerheads carried munition rounds, which would be able to put a stop to the huge hordes of smaller critters--and that's them not firing on the large critters or firing a round that might rip through the heavier creatures.
Plus, for all we know, the force in question had no Hammerheads or Broadsides.
Railguns lose power as they penetrate, but the massive amount of power they start with means you can point and shoot and it'll tear a line straight through the horde several hundred metres long.
Also I highly doubt that they had no HHs or Broadsides. They're almost always present at large engagements.
Plus the Kroot weapons and ion weapons and flamers and missiles that would be there would still be effective. However, if you become resistant to Pulse weaponry then you've knocked out all their suppressive fire and prevented them from performing one of the most important roles in a battle..
I think Kan means that Railgun is not the gun for Hordes. It will surely kill 1 Tyranid, but until it reloads the other 99999999 will nom him. Guard bolter heavy weapon is half strong but firing rapidly and it's good for masses.
K262 wrote:If Tyranids can apparently rapidly evolve so easily to deflect pulse rounds, why haven't they evolved to resist or repel bolter rounds? It seems like somewhat of a plot hole...
Because it wasn't evolving to "deflect" pulse rounds. It was evolving to mitigate them.
I went back and reread it, but they essentially developed a pocket of a 'gel' underneath the carapace that mitigated the heat of the pulse round impact and the radiation accompanying it.
You can't really evolve to resist a kinetic round being shot at you and taking a hole out of your body, at least beyond evolving armor.
Which they do. Evolving thicker armor is like their go to thing. They even have a upgrade for it in game. It probably helps out a lot. (Doesn't the IoM just use posion on Tyranids?)
Nicholas wrote:
To be fair it might kill 10 of them
How is Railgun firing:
ZIT....................................................ZIT..............................................ZIT............................................ZIT...............................( nom nom nom nom nom nom nom )
"Since they were first catalogued, the Tau have progressed to a technological level that, while obviously not as enlightened as that of our own blessed order, is nevertheless highly advanced. Dues ex Mechanicus! All praise to the Omnissiah!"
....
"The heresy of these aliens reaches its zenith when one looks at their technology. While, admittedly, its performance can match and occasionally exceed that of imperial manufacture, it displays none of the proper obeisances to the holy spirit of the Machine God."
Comic Propaganda at best.
Machine God is fake, they suck at using and understanding AI after the war against the Men of Iron. That or they are being tube fed by the Dragon's nightmares and have formed a giant BS religion around him.
Yes, I understand Land Raiders have an AI, but the Land Raider isn't a super godly spirit, its a machine with a Bio-Engineered AI that is highly advanced and the idiots buff it in "holy" stupidity due to lack of understanding.
The AdMech is nothing more than a stockpile of human achievement that will never be fully understood again.
Nicholas wrote:
To be fair it might kill 10 of them
How is Railgun firing:
ZIT....................................................ZIT..............................................ZIT............................................ZIT...............................( nom nom nom nom nom nom nom )
[III]------- dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One second later:
[III]------- _____________________________________________________ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One railgun shot doesn't disappear after going through one bug. It'll splat dozens before slowing down or exiting the horde.
Oh it's from the IOM's perspective so maybe biased. The debate goes on I guess.
They do not "Suck" at using AI they decided not to because of the dangers it brings, the way they have it now is preferable and not much less effective. The Mechanicum knows their is nothing magical, but the proceedings and worship obviously have a purpose as landraiders and stuff have in the past refused to operate without proper maintenance or shown loyalty when properly maintained. This is the downside to biological AI all the emotions can't be completely wiped. The magical facade also helps by keeping everyone else ignorant of the tech, because if everyone knows then the Mechanicum becomes obsolete and their worship of the Omnissiah will no longer be tolerated.
K262 wrote:If Tyranids can apparently rapidly evolve so easily to deflect pulse rounds, why haven't they evolved to resist or repel bolter rounds? It seems like somewhat of a plot hole...
Because it wasn't evolving to "deflect" pulse rounds. It was evolving to mitigate them.
I went back and reread it, but they essentially developed a pocket of a 'gel' underneath the carapace that mitigated the heat of the pulse round impact and the radiation accompanying it.
You can't really evolve to resist a kinetic round being shot at you and taking a hole out of your body, at least beyond evolving armor.
Which they do. Evolving thicker armor is like their go to thing. They even have a upgrade for it in game. It probably helps out a lot. (Doesn't the IoM just use posion on Tyranids?)
There's like a few hundred different things they use on Tyranids. Hellfire Rounds are pretty commonly utilized by Deathwatch Kill-Teams facing Tyranids though. Hellfire Rounds are Bolter Rounds(or Heavy Bolter Rounds) with the tip and core replaced with a vial of mutagenic acid with thousands of needles inside that fire into the target once the vial shatters.
Nicholas wrote:
To be fair it might kill 10 of them
How is Railgun firing:
ZIT....................................................ZIT..............................................ZIT............................................ZIT...............................( nom nom nom nom nom nom nom )
[III]------- dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One second later:
[III]------- _____________________________________________________ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One railgun shot doesn't disappear after going through one bug. It'll splat dozens before slowing down or exiting the horde.
That's why I said it kills 10 out of the 100000000 before they nom nom nom
K262 wrote:If Tyranids can apparently rapidly evolve so easily to deflect pulse rounds, why haven't they evolved to resist or repel bolter rounds? It seems like somewhat of a plot hole...
Because it wasn't evolving to "deflect" pulse rounds. It was evolving to mitigate them.
I went back and reread it, but they essentially developed a pocket of a 'gel' underneath the carapace that mitigated the heat of the pulse round impact and the radiation accompanying it.
You can't really evolve to resist a kinetic round being shot at you and taking a hole out of your body, at least beyond evolving armor.
Which they do. Evolving thicker armor is like their go to thing. They even have a upgrade for it in game. It probably helps out a lot. (Doesn't the IoM just use posion on Tyranids?)
There's like a few hundred different things they use on Tyranids. Hellfire Rounds are pretty commonly utilized by Deathwatch Kill-Teams facing Tyranids though. Hellfire Rounds are Bolter Rounds(or Heavy Bolter Rounds) with the tip and core replaced with a vial of mutagenic acid with thousands of needles inside that fire into the target once the vial shatters.
Neat. That is one area where the IoM just crushes the tau, Bio engineering and weaponry. The IoM can make engineered organisms like SM. On the other hand, the tau are at the level of farmers in the middle ages give or take.
TrollPie wrote:
[III]------- dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One second later:
[III]------- _____________________________________________________ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One railgun shot doesn't disappear after going through one bug. It'll splat dozens before slowing down or exiting the horde.
TrollPie wrote:
[III]------- dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One second later:
[III]------- _____________________________________________________ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
One railgun shot doesn't disappear after going through one bug. It'll splat dozens before slowing down or exiting the horde.
If only that horde is in the straight line
Speaking from video game experience, It's very hard to hit more then a few people with one round, even when they are in massive hoards. Aiming a at to high or low an angle will mean your shot will fly over or under the hoard. Things get even harder if you are on broken ground or if you are firing from an elevated position (like the top of a hammer head)
I know it's a game and this is an internet board and the usual Tau haters (Kan and Coa) have already arrived but the real physics of a railgun shot far surpass anything that IoM would be able to produce with a tank.
However, railguns could also be used in a direct fire mode against surface targets, with only seconds from time of launch to impact. A notional 15 kg railgun flight body arrives on target with a 1500 m/s or Mach 5 terminal velocity, which equates to 17 MJ of available kinetic energy. This is about twice the kinetic energy available from a conventional 5-inch KE warhead from a projectile at half the weight.
The next generation of naval guns was launched Oct. 2, 2006, with the successful test and stand up of an electromagnetic (EM) railgun facility at the Naval Surface Warfare Center Dahlgren Division (NSWCDD) Laboratory. Under the auspices of the Office of Naval Research (ONR), engineers at the laboratory fired a low energy shot, the first in a series of tests required to bring the facility online. Using a 90 mm bore launcher with a copper rail and a power plant capable of delivering 8 mega joules (MJ) of muzzle energy, a 2.4kg projectile was fired at 830 m/s, yielding an energy of 0.8 MJ. With the potential to deliver lethal, hypersonic projectiles at ranges in excess of 200 nautical miles within six minutes, a naval railgun offers a transformational solution for volume fires and time-critical strike.
A car going 100 mph passing near you will make you fall down. A railgun shot traveling at mach5 or greater and traveling within a few yards (or greater distance probably) will rip your organs from your body and turn you into jelly.
agnosto wrote:I know it's a game and this is an internet board and the usual Tau haters (Kan and Coa) have already arrived but the real physics of a railgun shot far surpass anything that IoM would be able to produce with a tank.
Uhhuh. Yes, I clearly hate Tau.
No, what I "hate" is Tau fanboys who assume that higher technology in one area is automatically a "higher technological base(bold means important)" and the ridiculous amount of plot armor that twerp Andy Hoare has given the Tau.
You're also failing to remember that anytime that Hammerhead hulls a Leman Russ, four more are trundling up towards it firing a Battle Cannon at the same distance.
However, railguns could also be used in a direct fire mode against surface targets, with only seconds from time of launch to impact. A notional 15 kg railgun flight body arrives on target with a 1500 m/s or Mach 5 terminal velocity, which equates to 17 MJ of available kinetic energy. This is about twice the kinetic energy available from a conventional 5-inch KE warhead from a projectile at half the weight.
The next generation of naval guns was launched Oct. 2, 2006, with the successful test and stand up of an electromagnetic (EM) railgun facility at the Naval Surface Warfare Center Dahlgren Division (NSWCDD) Laboratory. Under the auspices of the Office of Naval Research (ONR), engineers at the laboratory fired a low energy shot, the first in a series of tests required to bring the facility online. Using a 90 mm bore launcher with a copper rail and a power plant capable of delivering 8 mega joules (MJ) of muzzle energy, a 2.4kg projectile was fired at 830 m/s, yielding an energy of 0.8 MJ. With the potential to deliver lethal, hypersonic projectiles at ranges in excess of 200 nautical miles within six minutes, a naval railgun offers a transformational solution for volume fires and time-critical strike.
A car going 100 mph passing near you will make you fall down. A railgun shot traveling at mach5 or greater and traveling within a few yards (or greater distance probably) will rip your organs from your body and turn you into jelly.
Yeah. We kinda know that. There's a reason the Imperium makes taking down Broadsides and Hammerheads a priority when possible. There's a reason that on Taros and during the Damocles Gulf campaigns the Imperium utilized Basilisks to counter railgun equipped Tau vehicles.
agnosto wrote:I know it's a game and this is an internet board and the usual Tau haters (Kan and Coa) have already arrived but the real physics of a railgun shot far surpass anything that IoM would be able to produce with a tank.
However, railguns could also be used in a direct fire mode against surface targets, with only seconds from time of launch to impact. A notional 15 kg railgun flight body arrives on target with a 1500 m/s or Mach 5 terminal velocity, which equates to 17 MJ of available kinetic energy. This is about twice the kinetic energy available from a conventional 5-inch KE warhead from a projectile at half the weight.
The next generation of naval guns was launched Oct. 2, 2006, with the successful test and stand up of an electromagnetic (EM) railgun facility at the Naval Surface Warfare Center Dahlgren Division (NSWCDD) Laboratory. Under the auspices of the Office of Naval Research (ONR), engineers at the laboratory fired a low energy shot, the first in a series of tests required to bring the facility online. Using a 90 mm bore launcher with a copper rail and a power plant capable of delivering 8 mega joules (MJ) of muzzle energy, a 2.4kg projectile was fired at 830 m/s, yielding an energy of 0.8 MJ. With the potential to deliver lethal, hypersonic projectiles at ranges in excess of 200 nautical miles within six minutes, a naval railgun offers a transformational solution for volume fires and time-critical strike.
A car going 100 mph passing near you will make you fall down. A railgun shot traveling at mach5 or greater and traveling within a few yards (or greater distance probably) will rip your organs from your body and turn you into jelly.
3 things:
-I do not hate Tau, I hate you guys. -Were does it say that RailGun has splash? -And that is Human RailGun, are you saying the Tau one is the exactly saim one by all standards?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:
Speaking from video game experience, It's very hard to hit more then a few people with one round, even when they are in massive hoards. Aiming a at to high or low an angle will mean your shot will fly over or under the hoard. Things get even harder if you are on broken ground or if you are firing from an elevated position (like the top of a hammer head)
If fluff Broadside fires exactly the same. Fire then several seconds cool down then fire again. Against Nids that this is useless.
Kanluwen wrote:
You're also failing to remember that anytime that Hammerhead hulls a Leman Russ, four more are trundling up towards it firing a Battle Cannon at the same distance.
You're failing to realize those 4 Russes aren't range until only one remains.
Then it comes down to what's better, Disruption Pods or Smoke!
Kanluwen wrote:
You're also failing to remember that anytime that Hammerhead hulls a Leman Russ, four more are trundling up towards it firing a Battle Cannon at the same distance.
You're failing to realize those 4 Russes aren't range until only one remains.
And there's not just those 5 Russes in an attack, so the point is moot.
Then it comes down to what's better, Disruption Pods or Smoke!
"DOUBLE QUOTE"
We've already settled this!
Disruption Pods are better against a technological based threat and it provides a significant advantage for the vehicles proper, while Smoke is better for the kinds of attacks that the Imperial Guard prefer with massed vehicles and infantry.
nomotog wrote:
Speaking from video game experience, It's very hard to hit more then a few people with one round, even when they are in massive hoards. Aiming a at to high or low an angle will mean your shot will fly over or under the hoard. Things get even harder if you are on broken ground or if you are firing from an elevated position (like the top of a hammer head)
If fluff Broadside fires exactly the same. Fire then several seconds cool down then fire again. Against Nids that this is useless.
Well it would still have a use sniping synapse creatures, or other large nids. You know same use as it normally has. It just can't work alone and that was the problem. You can't fight a war with just artillery.
nomotog wrote:
Speaking from video game experience, It's very hard to hit more then a few people with one round, even when they are in massive hoards. Aiming a at to high or low an angle will mean your shot will fly over or under the hoard. Things get even harder if you are on broken ground or if you are firing from an elevated position (like the top of a hammer head)
If fluff Broadside fires exactly the same. Fire then several seconds cool down then fire again. Against Nids that this is useless.
Well it would still have a use sniping synapse creatures, or other large nids. You know same use as it normally has. It just can't work alone and that was the problem. You can't fight a war with just artillery.
That is good tactic against few dose beasts. What are you going to do against several hundreds or thousands?
nomotog wrote:
Speaking from video game experience, It's very hard to hit more then a few people with one round, even when they are in massive hoards. Aiming a at to high or low an angle will mean your shot will fly over or under the hoard. Things get even harder if you are on broken ground or if you are firing from an elevated position (like the top of a hammer head)
If fluff Broadside fires exactly the same. Fire then several seconds cool down then fire again. Against Nids that this is useless.
Well it would still have a use sniping synapse creatures, or other large nids. You know same use as it normally has. It just can't work alone and that was the problem. You can't fight a war with just artillery.
That is good tactic against few dose beasts. What are you going to do against several hundreds or thousands?
Assuming you can still use your crisissuits and firewarriors, then surgical trikes on the synapse creatures will turn the hoard feral and allow for proper mop up with firewarriors. The nids still need the bigger creatures. Often they are the only ones who can brake the defense line. You can't beat the nids with only railguns, but they do have a use in a nid fight.
nomotog wrote:
Speaking from video game experience, It's very hard to hit more then a few people with one round, even when they are in massive hoards. Aiming a at to high or low an angle will mean your shot will fly over or under the hoard. Things get even harder if you are on broken ground or if you are firing from an elevated position (like the top of a hammer head)
If fluff Broadside fires exactly the same. Fire then several seconds cool down then fire again. Against Nids that this is useless.
Well it would still have a use sniping synapse creatures, or other large nids. You know same use as it normally has. It just can't work alone and that was the problem. You can't fight a war with just artillery.
That is good tactic against few dose beasts. What are you going to do against several hundreds or thousands?
Unload a volley of missiles from their hands while nearby hovering gun drones unload pulse rifle fire.
A Railgun firing sold slugs at speeds above the sound barrier will kill organisms without ever touching them, that's just physics meeting biology.
As per the overall topic: the Tau have a much higher average level of technological adaption, whereas the Imperium has higher peak technology. I think that's the best way to put it
Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.
This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?
It's not the equivalent, they believe that all machines have a spirit inside of it that must be pleased by arcane rituals, the ipod example you describe has a spontaneous and ingenuine nature to it (i.e., you really don't think you're talking to it).
Its been stated plenty of times that the Imperium is slowly losing technology and humanity is not as advanced as it once was because of technological decay. It's the entire point of STC's. The Mechanicus do invent while the Tau do, it's an essential difference.
They're inefficient at the very best. At the very worst they're the equivalent of the Russian Guy in Armageddon who bangs the Space Station with a wrench until it works.
"A machine spirit is what some refer to as a vehicle's automatic systems. The advanced system consists of a combination of organic and mechanical components within the vehicle, and is able to logically control the vehicle's movement and fire its weapons at enemies. Not all vehicles are equipped with such systems; vehicles that are can operate entirely on its own without a crew with some success.
The addition of a machine spirit is advantageous in the case of the vehicle's crew being killed or incapacitated, as the auto-systems are able to take control of the vehicle, firing its weapons and driving (providing the systems themselves are still functional). The machine spirit however cannot fully replace the abilities of trained human pilots. Going that far could garner the attention of the Inquisition.1
Two of the most advanced and powerful types of machine spirit are those found with in Land Raiders and Drop Pods. With the Drop pods, it uses its abilities to handle course corrections and to avoid collisions into dangerous terrain or anti-aircraft fire. Upon landing, it reroutes all logic processing into Target acquisition and shooting for any on board weapons. A Land Raider's machine spirit is capable of virtually taking control of the entire tank for short periods of time, even so far as being able to track multiple targets and engage them simultaneously, or let the tank travel max speed and still unleash heavier weapons than normally permitted. One such famous tale is that of a Land Raider that belonged to the Crimson Fists Chapter's known as Rynn's Might, which survived the missile that leveled their fortress-monastery. Despite not having any crew on board, the machine spirit fought a solo war against an Ork Warband that was attacking, killing the Warboss that led the band and many of his followers over night before finally being destroyed."
Lexicanum
The machine spirit is a real thing, not religious mumbojumbo. The mechanicum knows this they also know that those "crazy religious BS" does actually calm them. They also do not believe that every machine has it as they are the ones who install the system. Everyone on the outside thinks they are crazy because they keep these things secret.
What about against other enemies like the Necrons or Orks? Let us not limit it to the Tyranids It sounds like the Imperium of Man is about like the US in World War 2 compared to the Tau who like the Germans. IoM is able to mass produce and has advanced technolgy, while the Tau have technology as well, but are now where near the production capability or numbers that the IoM has.
No, what I "hate" is Tau fanboys who assume that higher technology in one area is automatically a "higher technological base(bold means important)" and the ridiculous amount of plot armor that twerp Andy Hoare has given the Tau.
Pot, meet kettle. I seem to recall you being called out for your fanboiness often enough. The whole fanboy thing is a bit ridiculous but so is your incessant need to chime in whenever a thread about Tau pops up; since you've got this whole love/hate thing with Tau, you should just go ahead and make a Tau army since you spend half of your time on this board either decrying them. Now, I know I mentioned you and Coa's names but you have to admit that you guys always show up every time there is a Tau thread but we never seem to see you in one of Melissia's SoB lovefests or when there's the marinez are the bestest of the bestest of the bestest threads. Which means you're selective in your "sharing the gospel". That's fine but don't try to make it something less than what it is by saying you just don't like fanbois. Heck, even Coa puts his Tau hate in his signature.
I'm pretty sure the plot armor's about to hit the fan with the next codex. Hoare isn't around anymore is he? I wasn't attempting to address the overall tech issue since the last page plus was about railguns only. GW railguns seem to be quite a bit weaker 40,000 years in the future than the ones being tested today.... that and physics doesn't seem to work correctly either.
As for general tech and selective decisions of what is canon beside. The quote earlier from the codex that was written by a Genetor Secundus (whatever that is) even states that the Tau meet IoM tech on some levels and even exceed them on others. We all know the ad mech would love to get ahold of Tau tech but since the Tau don't pray to their vehicles before going into combat, that may not work out for them.
No, what I "hate" is Tau fanboys who assume that higher technology in one area is automatically a "higher technological base(bold means important)" and the ridiculous amount of plot armor that twerp Andy Hoare has given the Tau.
Pot, meet kettle. I seem to recall you being called out for your fanboiness often enough. The whole fanboy thing is a bit ridiculous but so is your incessant need to chime in whenever a thread about Tau pops up; since you've got this whole love/hate thing with Tau, you should just go ahead and make a Tau army since you spend half of your time on this board either decrying them.
Actually, I have the plan to once I see if the Battlesuits are revised or not.
And maybe if we stopped having the same thread every few weeks, I wouldn't have a "need" to chime in, especially since it's always the same freaking argument and the same freaking people claiming that railguns, drones, or anti-grav tech=supertechnology. Hell, someone once claimed that Battlesuits are a sign of a superadvanced society and you have the gall to say that I'm the problem here?
Not every Tau player is like this, of course, but there's some who either are just trying to troll Imperial players(which is hilarious all things considered) or just think that one or two things being higher tech means that everything
Now, I know I mentioned you and Coa's names but you have to admit that you guys always show up every time there is a Tau thread but we never seem to see you in one of Melissia's SoB lovefests or when there's the marinez are the bestest of the bestest of the bestest threads.
I can't speak for Coa, but if I'm in a Tau thread it's almost always because the first mentions are what amounts to railguns being some kind of superadvanced technological yardstick. That's not correct, nor are the drones or anti-grav tech when you're comparing them to the Imperium at large.
As you yourself pointed out, we are currently developing railguns. That does not make us superadvanced.
I should also add that I DO commonly post in Melissia's SoB threads. I ignore the "Marinez are the bestest of the bestest of the bestest threads" because they're not worth anyone's time. I report them as not belonging in 40k Background, and don't post in them unless someone starts up with the "Dark Angels need to be put into Codex: Space Marines" garbage.
Which means you're selective in your "sharing the gospel". That's fine but don't try to make it something less than what it is by saying you just don't like fanbois.
I'm sorry, find me a thread where I've gone and said something that comes remotely close to "The Tau can stave off the whole of the Imperium because they fought off a Crusade whose numbers we have no idea of!" or "The Tau clearly are better than the Imperium because they killed a Titan!".
I mean come on, it's Warhound Scout Titans. Guard Armour take down Warhounds, and Hammerheads can take down Warhounds too. Warhounds are for all intents and purposes a joke.
Heck, even Coa puts his Tau hate in his signature.
Yes, and Melissia's a well-known Astartes agitator. What's your point?
We know Coa hates the Tau. That's as well-known as some posters and their feelings towards GW, and has no bearing towards what I say.
I'm pretty sure the plot armor's about to hit the fan with the next codex. Hoare isn't around anymore is he? I wasn't attempting to address the overall tech issue since the last page plus was about railguns only. GW railguns seem to be quite a bit weaker 40,000 years in the future than the ones being tested today.... that and physics doesn't seem to work correctly either.
Hoare is still around writing fluff, but not the rules as far as I know.
As for general tech and selective decisions of what is canon beside.
What "selective decisions of what is canon"?
Ignoring anything about the Damocles Gulf Crusade is the smartest thing you can do right now. There's no proper standard for what's in there, at all. Some sources state that something like 50 Astartes were involved--but some hundred Rhinos and Land Speeders were also fielded. Since Rhinos and Speeders are crewed by Astartes--that doesn't work.
Some sources put the Guard forces present at being stupidly light, while others make it seem like they flooded the field with Guardsmen against a half dozen Fire Warriors.
The quote earlier from the codex that was written by a Genetor Secundus (whatever that is) even states that the Tau meet IoM tech on some levels and even exceed them on others. We all know the ad mech would love to get ahold of Tau tech but since the Tau don't pray to their vehicles before going into combat, that may not work out for them.
The Adeptus Mechanicus have Tau tech and are reverse-engineering it. Read Deathwatch: Rites of Battle for an example. They're miniaturizing and adapting stealth field generators for use by Deathwatch Kill-Teams.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Machine God is fake, they suck at using and understanding AI after the war against the Men of Iron. That or they are being tube fed by the Dragon's nightmares and have formed a giant BS religion around him.
The Machine God is factually an enslaved Star God, and theologically the Emperor, who is a god of a similar nature to the Chaos Gods, being an amalgamation of psyker souls. Machine Spirits are soft AIs that serve as the operating systems for most Imperial tech, and the rituals for repairing or controlling them are ritualized troubleshooting/repair regimens or operating instructions.
The upper levels of the AdMech sit in the same general area of advancement as the Eldar factions, just with a different, non-psychic focus. As a whole the Imperium averages out in third, after the Necrons and Eldar, though pre-AoS humanity would have fallen between the Necrons and Eldar.
In every area the Tau are less advanced than the Imperium, though in a number of things they end up with a more functional piece of equipment. Sort of like how a device that launched a whirling ball of chainsaws at a target, accurately, via a Rube Goldberg device would be more advanced than a cannon firing an explosive shell, though not necessarily as good a solution. A titan, for instance, just to be able to function as it does, would require more technology than the sum of Tau advancement to date, yet can be brought down by a mass of their suits of primitive power armor.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Machine God is fake, they suck at using and understanding AI after the war against the Men of Iron. That or they are being tube fed by the Dragon's nightmares and have formed a giant BS religion around him.
In every area the Tau are less advanced than the Imperium, though in a number of things they end up with a more functional piece of equipment. Sort of like how a device that launched a whirling ball of chainsaws at a target, accurately, via a Rube Goldberg device would be more advanced than a cannon firing an explosive shell, though not necessarily as good a solution. A titan, for instance, just to be able to function as it does, would require more technology than the sum of Tau advancement to date, yet can be brought down by a mass of their suits of primitive power armor.
Except when it comes to average adoption / usage of technology; the average Firewarrior is far better equipped than the average guardsmen, their average armored vehicles are more advanced, and the average Tau world has a much higher level of technology than the majority of feudal monkey tribes that make up the imperium of man. I'd also argue that a crisis suit is actually quite superior to your average power armored marine. This is the result of the logistical quandary that is the imperium coupled with technological stagnation and ignorance.
Though I field Tau, and am a bit partial, I will say that Space Marines and Imperial Gaurd do have a tenacity that cannot be rivaled. But, I do agree that the Tau (as base soldiers) are much better off than gaurdsman, despite their inabality to effectively fight in close-quarters combat. As of now, the Tau may be slightly, maybe even lower in technology, but in the future they will surpass the IoM if the tren continues (Tau increasing, IoM decreasing). How long that will take is a mystery. As I feel this has become centered around the IoM and Tau, what about Tau tech versus Ork or Eldar tech?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Machine God is fake, they suck at using and understanding AI after the war against the Men of Iron. That or they are being tube fed by the Dragon's nightmares and have formed a giant BS religion around him.
In every area the Tau are less advanced than the Imperium, though in a number of things they end up with a more functional piece of equipment. Sort of like how a device that launched a whirling ball of chainsaws at a target, accurately, via a Rube Goldberg device would be more advanced than a cannon firing an explosive shell, though not necessarily as good a solution. A titan, for instance, just to be able to function as it does, would require more technology than the sum of Tau advancement to date, yet can be brought down by a mass of their suits of primitive power armor.
Except when it comes to average adoption / usage of technology; the average Firewarrior is far better equipped than the average guardsmen, their average armored vehicles are more advanced, and the average Tau world has a much higher level of technology than the majority of feudal monkey tribes that make up the imperium of man. I'd also argue that a crisis suit is actually quite superior to your average power armored marine. This is the result of the logistical quandary that is the imperium coupled with technological stagnation and ignorance.
Firewarriors are outnumbered a thousand to one by the main battle tanks of the Guard.
A single Hive World houses more humans than there are Tau in total, frequently a dozen or hundred times over (Armageddon has "hundreds of billions", Necromunda has one thousand hives, each of which house in excess of a billion humans).
Battlesuits are larger, heavier, slower, and clumsier than power armor, while affording less protection and requiring a crude version of the system used to control titans, that's too unstable for use anywhere else, to pilot. The only upside was they were already so cumbersome they could weld a few heavy weapons onto them, and in the case of Crisis Suits a large jet engine too, without an appreciable loss in dexterity, having basically none to lose in the first place. Of course, despite being made up of individually inferior parts, "giant robot suit that's more or less resistant to small arms fire, mounts small artillery pieces on the shoulders, and careens about with a large jet on its back" turns out to be more useful than the smaller, more resilient and agile power armor suits. But then, Skitarii make both look primitive and feeble, and are fielded in formations thousands strong, so there's that.
I openly admitted the disparity in population, but my point stands about average adoption of technology.
Crisis Suits are actually quite fast, agile, and lithe...at least, that's what i've gathered from the fluff i've read; IA: Taros was quite explicit about them being deceptively agile, as far as i remember. They're also more resilient and carry more weapons systems than standard marines
What about at range, as the Tau are best at long ranges? How would technology affect outcomes then, assuming the Tau could remain at range for the enirety of the battle?
Pro-Imperium players like to boast the good ol' days of pre-heresy when they were at their finest in technology. But ever since the Horus Heresy, there's more emphasis on the Adeptus Minostorum than on advancing technology. The Imperium is experiencing a medieval dark age.
On the other hand, Tau is progressing in Technology. They are considered more advance than the Imperium in certain areas, while lacking in others. One of Tau's biggest drawbacks is space travel.
K262 wrote:Though I field Tau, and am a bit partial, I will say that Space Marines and Imperial Gaurd do have a tenacity that cannot be rivaled. But, I do agree that the Tau (as base soldiers) are much better off than gaurdsman, despite their inabality to effectively fight in close-quarters combat. As of now, the Tau may be slightly, maybe even lower in technology, but in the future they will surpass the IoM if the tren continues (Tau increasing, IoM decreasing). How long that will take is a mystery.
In five thousand years, the Tau have gone from where we were three thousand years ago, to where we'll be within a hundred years, ignoring the magical space magics and fantasy physics and whatnot found in 40K. The Imperium doesn't advance much as a whole because it's on top of the pile as it is, but it's still on the upswing at the current point in the timeline, though it did fall quite a bit in the earlier half of its life.
As I feel this has become centered around the IoM and Tau, what about Tau tech versus Ork or Eldar tech?
Eldar are more advanced than the general Imperium, and more or less on par with the inner circles of the AdMech. Orks are probably lower, because their higher tech isn't actually tech, but reality warping to their will, in the shape of ramshackle tech.
Retribution wrote:I openly admitted the disparity in population, but my point stands about average adoption of technology.
Crisis Suits are actually quite fast, agile, and lithe...at least, that's what i've gathered from the fluff i've read; IA: Taros was quite explicit about them being deceptively agile, as far as i remember. They're also more resilient and carry more weapons systems than standard marines
They're the size of a dreadnought, weigh around six times what a power armored Marine does, and provide slightly inferior protection compared to the power armor. Every description of them as "fast" comes from the whole "strapped to a jet engine" thing. Pound for pound they carry less weaponry, since each unit weighs the same as the better part of a tac squad, but only mounts too semi-heavy weapons, while the model that carries the two slightly-better-than-lascannons railguns is heavier still, with less mobility than a terminator suit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
K262 wrote:What about at range, as the Tau are best at long ranges? How would technology affect outcomes then, assuming the Tau could remain at range for the enirety of the battle?
They'd be pummeled with the far larger Imperial artillery. Possibly the sort from orbit, which even the smallest Imperial Navy vessel carries.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Retribution wrote:
Eldar are more advanced than the general Imperium
I believe this is the exact same argument i just used for the Tau <_<
For the general Imperium we get hiveworlds, which are only possible because of the advanced tech keeping the interiors of hives livable, and food coming in from other systems; the Guard, who are equipped with the ideal weapons from a logistical standpoint, items which are extremely advanced in their own right, even if most of that advancement involves making them cheap, reliable, and easy to resupply, along with masses of the single greatest main battle tank of any faction, despite it only half utilizing the systems built into it (and, if thought about critically, is very likely just the engine and drive system of an actual STC tank, with some guns and "thin" armor welded onto it, hence the awkward, suboptimal shape, yet still manages to outperform its peers); the Navy, with their "able to glass most of a continent in a few weeks" requirement for even the smallest of warship; and the public side of the AdMech that's involved in producing and maintaining all of the above, to wholly ignore the AdMech proper with its Titans, Skitarii, and really pretty much anything else described in Titanicus.
The Eldar are more advanced than all that (except for the AdMech proper, which they are roughly on par with); the Tau are not.
I have hear dthat the IoM does not want to engage the Tau in large scale war , yet, with an emphasis on the "yet". If they would, as a large amount of people are saying, be wiped from the pages of history by the sheer crushing power of the IoM, why are they just sitting around waiting for the Tau to get better tech?
Retribution wrote: As per the overall topic: the Tau have a much higher average level of technological adaption, whereas the Imperium has higher peak technology. I think that's the best way to put it
Exactly what we are saying. Tau have widespread tech because they have around 100 worlds. Imperium has more than million worlds ( I had topic and you guys said "million worlds" means "more than a million" ), try to distribute equal level of tech to them all. We can't do that today with Earth ( notice the tech difference in West and East ) and we are just one planet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote: Heck, even Coa puts his Tau hate in his signature.
Not true exactly, most of it is just why are Tau hated in the first place. When you guys pop up and start talking imaginary things and yet trying to prove us that things are true in fact. I mean I love Tau, their background, their tech and the fact that they help the Imperium now and then. Their models are also great, I just don't like the Ethereal worship thing - there is something sinister behind that and We just don't see it.
And they you guys pop up with your comments and start insulting Imperium. And in most times you start first, if there is normal Tau fan here it's KillKrazy - the rest of you are way to fans for a fan. And what Kan is trying to point is that you are taking Imperium's tech to seriously, it's not that good. Tau have never face greater threat then Imperium's half-organised crusade in Democles. And after Imperium retreated ( not because of Tau but Hive Fleet ) you start rambling about Tau killing Chaos Gods and stuff. And after Taros things just got worse, even if Taros was written by Tau fans itself ( seriously, the way that Imperials fight... Italians would fight better and they would be better organised and they are stupid for war [ no offence ] ). And they you start talking big like Manta taking down gakload of Titans, while failing to see that Manta is a space ship that Tau use to bring down smallest and weakest of Titans with little to no shields at all.
I am sorry but Tau is not generally hated here it's you guys, and that's the fact.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote: Now, I know I mentioned you and Coa's names but you have to admit that you guys always show up every time there is a Tau thread but we never seem to see you in one of Melissia's SoB lovefests or when there's the marinez are the bestest of the bestest of the bestest threads.
And what are you talking about? I thought it was my sheer will to go were ever thread I want not what tread you select me. And I am hanging on lot of different threads to. I am at lot of SoB threads to, trying to explain to people that they are good for something else then just looking good and dying like Guard, only bloodier. And about Space Marines it's just usually some guys that ask question about some chapters or how stuff works. And thinks I don't know I left to other guys to explain ( liek the thread "How Librarians return to Space Marines?" And I don't always go into fight or trolling like you guys ( see thread "Tau Empire" that was some month ago ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: Yes, and Melissia's a well-known Astartes agitator. What's your point?
We know Coa hates the Tau. That's as well-known as some posters and their feelings towards GW, and has no bearing towards what I say.
Gee, thanks for the compliments Kan
And I am not ignoring what people say, I just try to explain into smaller posts because it is very hard to write a book in English when you are not from that area. And I already said that you know most of 40k things, and that means that most of your posts are true and accurate. And I don't hate Tau, if Eldar fans are like Tau fans I would hate Eldar to.
They're the size of a dreadnought, weigh around six times what a power armored Marine does, and provide slightly inferior protection compared to the power armor. Every description of them as "fast" comes from the whole "strapped to a jet engine" thing. Pound for pound they carry less weaponry, since each unit weighs the same as the better part of a tac squad, but only mounts too semi-heavy weapons, while the model that carries the two slightly-better-than-lascannons railguns is heavier still, with less mobility than a terminator suit.
I didn't want to post anything in this thread since everything seems to be taken as a personal attack But i'd like to know the source for this information, because as i see it: A) They're smaller than a dreadnought easily - small exaggeration there B) No idea where you got the weights from, could you share the source? C) As for slightly inferior protection i see no evidence, source? D) If a rocket on the back makes them fast so be it, they're fast. That's like me saying the stormraven is a flying metal box why do people say it's fast, it's only fast because of it's engines.... yes, yes it is E) Railguns are superior to lascannons, which terminators can't take - besides apples and oranges, broadsides are gun platforms therefore need no mobility, terminators are assault based so need more mobility, different functions, both are adept at what they are made for.
If we compare the armies, as if they had the same amount of troops tanks etc. I think tau would have the upper hand with their technology, sure in reality killing 1 LR effectively does nothing to the total number but in an fight with equal numbers i think tau would have it thanks to their tech.
No offense to anyone, but alot of the imperial arguements seem to be: 'Doesn't matter we've more guys/tanks/production' 'We used to be better than everyone' While quantity over quality does work it doesn't deny that 1 fire warrior is better than 1 guardsmen (except in melee), or that 1 hammerhead is better than 1 vanquisher.
This is just my take on things, from an eldar fanboy
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:SAG too.
No-one else in the universe has a man portable ordinance guidable-warphole snotling-cannon..
No-one else is crazy enough to want one on their shoulder, but the point still stands.
Necrons still rule the tech-jungle anyway
Wraithcannon, nuff said. And yes crons rule supreme, how they shoot green lightning, or if it is even lightning, we'll never know
MikZor wrote:I didn't want to post anything in this thread since everything seems to be taken as a personal attack But i'd like to know the source for this information, because as i see it:
A) They're smaller than a dreadnought easily - small exaggeration there
They're closer to dreadnought size than power armor size, so close enough.
B) No idea where you got the weights from, could you share the source?
C) As for slightly inferior protection i see no evidence, source?
Deathwatch or White Dwarf or something, it was posted in this exact argument in a thread a few months back, don't know the original source.
D) If a rocket on the back makes them fast so be it, they're fast. That's like me saying the stormraven is a flying metal box why do people say it's fast, it's only fast because of it's engines.... yes, yes it is
Something careening through the air is fast in a very different way from something which is agile on the ground. A fighter jet, for instance, might be fast, but it has nowhere near the finesse or maneuverability of a soldier on the ground, albeit for the reason that at the speeds it's going, being more agile would turn the pilot into a fine paste inside the cockpit.
E) Railguns are superior to lascannons, which terminators can't take - besides apples and oranges, broadsides are gun platforms therefore need no mobility, terminators are assault based so need more mobility, different functions, both are adept at what they are made for.
Can't tac marines take them or something? I confess I don't know the specifics of the SM codex because trying to read it makes me gag. The point was more you have a massive, lumbering suit, with a pair of weapons slightly better than their Imperial counterpart. Every aspect of it is less advanced, even though the whole is admittedly more useful than power armor, though that is small consolation seeing as how power armored troops are useless in and of themselves, being too few and weak to accomplish anything, except when buried under a mountain of plot armor such as any time Space Marines are involved in anything. Being more advanced, again, doesn't make something proportionately more useful, if you recall the chainsaw hurler vs black powder cannon analogy.
If we compare the armies, as if they had the same amount of troops tanks etc. I think tau would have the upper hand with their technology, sure in reality killing 1 LR effectively does nothing to the total number but in an fight with equal numbers i think tau would have it thanks to their tech.
This is a dubious premise, because every time Guard have gone up against Tau they've been hopelessly outnumbered and with no hope of resupply or reinforcement. As these were all hard fought battles for the Tau, despite their numerical and logistic superiority, the idea that the two would be matched, or that the Imperium would come out on top, were their numbers equal is not out of the question.
No offense to anyone, but alot of the imperial arguements seem to be:
'Doesn't matter we've more guys/tanks/production'
That's actually a justification as to why they can't afford to outfit every Guardsmen with carapace and their superior plasma guns (fluffwise the heat-venting issue occurs when the gun is charging but not being fired, causing it to build up too much pressure in the containment chamber, not some instability that makes them explode when fired): there's simply too many to equip with such expensive gear, and supply would be a logistical nightmare.
'We used to be better than everyone'
And the few scraps that are left over are enough to leave the AdMech the rough equal of the Eldar.
While quantity over quality does work it doesn't deny that 1 fire warrior is better than 1 guardsmen (except in melee), or that 1 hammerhead is better than 1 vanquisher.
Outside of the tabletop, the first is a dubious prospect, and the latter is comparing two disparate things; a better match for a hammerhead would be a Leman Russ Annihilator with hull mounted lascannon
MikZor wrote:
And yes crons rule supreme, how they shoot green lightning, or if it is even lightning, we'll never know
The AdMech has Gauss tech, they just lack a power source capable of powering it, due to its ridiculous demands; yet another example of advancement not necessarily proving proportionate value, since it's not meaningfully more powerful than any number of less fuel intensive weapons the Imperium fields.
Brother Coa wrote:And they you guys p was written by Tau fans itself ( seriously, they was Imperials fight... Italians would fight better and they would be better organised and they are stupid for war [ no offence ] ). And they you start talking big like Manta taking down gakload of Titans, while failing to see that Manta is a space ship that Tau use to bring down smallest and weakest of Titans with little to no shields at all.
Not to meniton that Taros has the most imbecile Eversor ever who doesn't have spare clips. He goes with only one magazine for his (dual-component) pistol. And it's not even a magazine for the primary component.
And Coa would you like to read a review about IA 8?
Kanluwen wrote:What "selective decisions of what is canon"?.
There was that discussion of the death of puretide and you discounted the whole thing because you thought the black library novels that included it were "crap".
I really can't talk. I seem to chime in myself after the Tau hate hits its stride.
I don't know why I thought Hoare was gone; ah well, plot armor will continue to some extent unless they rewrite the whole thing and make the Tau Empire much larger and powerful than it currently is. I don't think it will happen because we all know that it's less about actual fluff and more about awesome new models for us to spend our plastic-crack money on.
TBH Tau would have a nice advantage against 'nids. Walls of indigestible Drones unloading every spare weapon they have, Remoras flying overhead and bzzshawoopin' through things. It would make an epic battle, but no matter what, Tyranids lose in a way-zero casualties to the Tau and no biomass for the Tyranids.
Of course, once the drones are dead the planet behind them gets nom'd. But hey, small beginnings and all that...
Wraithcannon aren't ordinance and don't fire snotlings. Black holes yes, snotlings no...
MikZor wrote:
And yes crons rule supreme, how they shoot green lightning, or if it is even lightning, we'll never know
The AdMech has Gauss tech, they just lack a power source capable of powering it, due to its ridiculous demands; yet another example of advancement not necessarily proving proportionate value, since it's not meaningfully more powerful than any number of less fuel intensive weapons the Imperium fields.
Um, no. They don't.
They can't even figure out how the damn things work, beyong vey general principles, unless you have some source to quote from that isn't the Necron Codex.
In the Necron codex they list the science as 'mathematically impossible' and all their observations are drawn from theory. They have no working device to study, and are postulating based on it's effects on subjects (IOM soldiery) and theoretical physics.
The Gauss flayer is the basic troop gun. In effect it is a bolter than can potentially take out or immobilize a large heavy vehicle in one shot against it's AV 14 front armour (if lucky). This is meaningfully more powerful than the standard issue arms that other races have that are more energy efficient.
The Heavy Gauss cannon doesn't deflect a micron punching right through a Landraider. The imperium can't do that without titan-scale weaponry. The necrons mount it on a jetbike. In game it's just a lascannon, in fluff its far more awesome.
Remember that the energy required (battleship/titan sized generators) is for the IOM to attempt to build one. The necrons do the same thing with the equivilent of a few D-cell duracells
Crisis Suits are the Apex of Infantry gear in the 41st.
They are either compared to Bio-Engineered super soldiers or dreadnoughts... The operator of a Battlesuit is a Tau Firewarrior. Making it the single best piece of gear you can be issued in 40K. Something that puts you between a demi-god super soldier and a tanky walker. Apart from being made a Daemon Prince, not too many other things out there can turn Joe Normie into a wrecking ball of death.
So trying to nitpick them is stupid, they utterly rock face against everything.
@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
Also, I don't know where you're getting that Crisis suits offer less protection than Power Armour. Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ork's actually do have impressive tech, unfortunately a majority of it is scrap metal with engines. The cool stuff they have is preprogrammed into their DNA, cheaters , this makes innovations rare and new things are based on what they saw other races use.
Nicholas wrote:Ork's actually do have impressive tech, unfortunately a majority of it is scrap metal with engines. The cool stuff they have is preprogrammed into their DNA, cheaters , this makes innovations rare and new things are based on what they saw other races use.
It could be argued that Orks possess more advanced technology than Necrons. Shokk attack gun anyone?
Nobody has better tech then Necrons SAG opens hole in the warp. Necrons tear holes in reality big enough for themselves to step through. Their tech is magic without the warp.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
Also, I don't know where you're getting that Crisis suits offer less protection than Power Armour. Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
The stuff can't be that rare. SOB have it, inquisitors have it. You can even get some as a rouge trader. If we want to go by the deathwatch rule book (It's questionable cannon) The IoM can build more terminator armor then the tau can build broadsides. (It also says that broadside armor is better)
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
Also, I don't know where you're getting that Crisis suits offer less protection than Power Armour. Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
The stuff can't be that rare. SOB have it, inquisitors have it. You can even get some as a rouge trader. If we want to go by the deathwatch rule book (It's questionable cannon) The IoM can build more terminator armor then the tau can build broadsides. (It also says that broadside armor is better)
1 million Marines, and a few thousand SoBs and Inquisitors. It's incredibly rare.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Imperium have only about one hundred thousand pieces of Terminator armour. The Tau produce a number far more proportionate to their size.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
Also, I don't know where you're getting that Crisis suits offer less protection than Power Armour. Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
The stuff can't be that rare. SOB have it, inquisitors have it. You can even get some as a rouge trader. If we want to go by the deathwatch rule book (It's questionable cannon) The IoM can build more terminator armor then the tau can build broadsides. (It also says that broadside armor is better)
1 million Marines, and a few thousand SoBs and Inquisitors. It's incredibly rare.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Imperium have only about one hundred thousand pieces of Terminator armour. The Tau produce a number far more proportionate to their size.
Well the stuff dosen't feel rare then. Honestly seems like the IoM has two levels of armor awful(IG) and godly(power armor). Ya deathwatch is questionable cannon. What got me was the idea that the IoM builds terminator armor. Last i checked, the IoM cant build it, they can only fix and refurbish it.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
nomotog wrote:Well the stuff dosen't feel rare then. Honestly seems like the IoM has two levels of armor awful(IG) and godly(power armor). Ya deathwatch is questionable cannon. What got me was the idea that the IoM builds terminator armor. Last i checked, the IoM cant build it, they can only fix and refurbish it.
The Imperium still builds Titans and Battleships. The reason terminator armor isn't mass produced is because it's a ridiculously inefficient use of resources, and one that's exclusively used by the rogue states the chapters of Space Marines constitute.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Low billions? They have seven heavily colonised planets (most likely around 5-10 billion each-Earth is pretty scarcely populated and has a population of 7 billion), 19 slightly less colonised, and 74 small outposts. We have no actual numbers, but a rough guess would be around 50 billion total.
We have no idea how many people a Hive World holds, only that it's a lot. But hundreds of times the population of the Tau Empire? Not likely.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
Space Marines are walking plot armor. They have pitiful numbers, equipment that's not worth what it costs to produce, and a grasp of tactics learned entirely from a book explicitly written to hamstring them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium. You know how almost every mention of SoB ends/starts with them being massacred wholesale? That's what happens to power armored troops who lack the revolting amounts of Plot Armor that get piled upon Marines. The annual tithe of Armageddon produces a much greater military force that the entirety of Loyalist Marines, being one hundred million and several tens of millions of armored vehicles, while the total military strength of the Marines works out to the equivalent of twelve million Guardsmen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TrollPie wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Low billions? They have seven heavily colonised planets (most likely around 5-10 billion each-Earth is pretty scarcely populated and has a population of 7 billion), 19 slightly less colonised, and 74 small outposts. We have no actual numbers, but a rough guess would be around 50 billion total.
We have no idea how many people a Hive World holds, only that it's a lot. But hundreds of times the population of the Tau Empire? Not likely.
The hundred times is for the exceptional worlds, like Terra or Necromunda.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
Space Marines are walking plot armor. They have pitiful numbers, equipment that's not worth what it costs to produce, and a grasp of tactics learned entirely from a book explicitly written to hamstring them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium. You know how almost every mention of SoB ends/starts with them being massacred wholesale? That's what happens to power armored troops who lack the revolting amounts of Plot Armor that get piled upon Marines. The annual tithe of Armageddon produces a much greater military force that the entirety of Loyalist Marines, being one hundred million and several tens of millions of armored vehicles, while the total military strength of the Marines works out to the equivalent of twelve million Guardsmen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TrollPie wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Low billions? They have seven heavily colonised planets (most likely around 5-10 billion each-Earth is pretty scarcely populated and has a population of 7 billion), 19 slightly less colonised, and 74 small outposts. We have no actual numbers, but a rough guess would be around 50 billion total.
We have no idea how many people a Hive World holds, only that it's a lot. But hundreds of times the population of the Tau Empire? Not likely.
The hundred times is for the exceptional worlds, like Terra or Necromunda.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
Space Marines are walking plot armor. They have pitiful numbers, equipment that's not worth what it costs to produce, and a grasp of tactics learned entirely from a book explicitly written to hamstring them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium. You know how almost every mention of SoB ends/starts with them being massacred wholesale? That's what happens to power armored troops who lack the revolting amounts of Plot Armor that get piled upon Marines. The annual tithe of Armageddon produces a much greater military force that the entirety of Loyalist Marines, being one hundred million and several tens of millions of armored vehicles, while the total military strength of the Marines works out to the equivalent of twelve million Guardsmen.
You seem to be missing what Space Marine's are. They are genetically enhanced supersoldiers, so nothing like SoB at all. The Space Marine's are also shock troops, so are never in a war of attrition unless supported by thousands of Guardsmen. They are expert tacticians and phenominal soldiers designed to cut of the Head of the Enemy army while the guard mop it up while it twitches. They never take on an army head on as this would be idiotic. They are also crippled by the Imperium so the Horus Heresy never happens again, which is a pretty good reason. They are the galaxies greatest shock troops, and because of this they are deployed as such.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
Space Marines are walking plot armor. They have pitiful numbers, equipment that's not worth what it costs to produce, and a grasp of tactics learned entirely from a book explicitly written to hamstring them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium. You know how almost every mention of SoB ends/starts with them being massacred wholesale? That's what happens to power armored troops who lack the revolting amounts of Plot Armor that get piled upon Marines. The annual tithe of Armageddon produces a much greater military force that the entirety of Loyalist Marines, being one hundred million and several tens of millions of armored vehicles, while the total military strength of the Marines works out to the equivalent of twelve million Guardsmen.
You seem to be missing what Space Marine's are. They are genetically enhanced supersoldiers, so nothing like SoB at all. The Space Marine's are also shock troops, so are never in a war of attrition unless supported by thousands of Guardsmen. They are expert tacticians and phenominal soldiers designed to cut of the Head of the Enemy army while the guard mop it up while it twitches. They never take on an army head on as this would be idiotic. They are also crippled by the Imperium so the Horus Heresy never happens again, which is a pretty good reason. They are the galaxies greatest shock troops, and because of this they are deployed as such.
They only fight in a tiny number of battles, due to their miniscule numbers. Overall, the only major change they've made to the galaxy is the Horus Heresy. A company of Marines without plot armour would never accomplish anything-not even breaking the siege of a minor city. The fact that they aren't allowed to fight in large numbers means realistically they'd be useless at any task whatsoever.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
1. There is no official number for the Tau. Densely populated on a galactic scale could suggest one trillion Tau exist or 100 billion. Anything and everything is pure speculation on our part. Unless there is a piece of GW fluff that states an exact number for them. Most numbers I have seen are guesswork or pieced together and almost all neglect Orbital city pops.
2. I hear that Power Armor is better and the reasoning is always density. However, the armor and the suit are exactly that, armor and a suit. They aren't both Armor or both Suits, they are different technology with very different roles. I could see a better comparison between a Fire Warrior and a Space Marine in armor and Crisis Suit and a Dreadnought. Armor vs Armor and Suit vs Suit.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
I would rank Daemons above Space Marines as the galaxies finest shock troopers. They come from out of nowhere and really put the shock factor into battle.
TrollPie wrote:@Sir Pseudonymous-No Hiveworld apart from Terra has a population "a dozen or hundred times over" the population of the Tau. There's 100 planets in the Tau Empire, so unless each of these has a population smaller than ten million they outnumber any Hive World by a massive amount, apart from Terra which iirc has a population of 90 trillion. They're small, but not that small.
The Tau number in the low billions on the outside. Hiveworlds house tens or hundreds of billions, some house trillions. The Tau control one hundred worlds, they've only properly colonized thirty, and only seven of those have any respectable population.
Power armour is mostly irrelevant anyway, considering how rare it is.
Ok, this makes me think you didn't actually read what I said. The point is that every bit of power armor is more advanced technologically that Tau suits, not that power armor was worth anything. I even explicitly said that power armored troops were worthless on account of their ridiculously low numbers, when they're not protected by even more plot armor than the Tau at least.
If by powered armored troops you mean Space Marines being worthless then you are wrong. They would not be able to hold out by themselves but they are not by themselves. Space Marines have turned battles in favor of the Imperium when guardsmen numbers and tactics wouldn't have worked. They are The galaxies finest shock troops.
Space Marines are walking plot armor. They have pitiful numbers, equipment that's not worth what it costs to produce, and a grasp of tactics learned entirely from a book explicitly written to hamstring them so they couldn't be a threat to the Imperium. You know how almost every mention of SoB ends/starts with them being massacred wholesale? That's what happens to power armored troops who lack the revolting amounts of Plot Armor that get piled upon Marines. The annual tithe of Armageddon produces a much greater military force that the entirety of Loyalist Marines, being one hundred million and several tens of millions of armored vehicles, while the total military strength of the Marines works out to the equivalent of twelve million Guardsmen.
You seem to be missing what Space Marine's are. They are genetically enhanced supersoldiers, so nothing like SoB at all. The Space Marine's are also shock troops, so are never in a war of attrition unless supported by thousands of Guardsmen. They are expert tacticians and phenominal soldiers designed to cut of the Head of the Enemy army while the guard mop it up while it twitches. They never take on an army head on as this would be idiotic. They are also crippled by the Imperium so the Horus Heresy never happens again, which is a pretty good reason. They are the galaxies greatest shock troops, and because of this they are deployed as such.
They only fight in a tiny number of battles, due to their miniscule numbers. Overall, the only major change they've made to the galaxy is the Horus Heresy. A company of Marines without plot armour would never accomplish anything-not even breaking the siege of a minor city. The fact that they aren't allowed to fight in large numbers means realistically they'd be useless at any task whatsoever.
100 marines can take a planet while 1000 can take a sector, they have made the difference in all major conflicts in the Imperium. I can't name any major conflict that hasn't included Space Marines in certain numbers. If they were useless then GW has been making their supersoldiers wrong. Most small battles aren't important enough to need Space Marines, but they are in any major battle where they are needed.
TrollPie wrote:
Low billions? They have seven heavily colonised planets (most likely around 5-10 billion each-Earth is pretty scarcely populated and has a population of 7 billion), 19 slightly less colonised, and 74 small outposts. We have no actual numbers, but a rough guess would be around 50 billion total.
We have no idea how many people a Hive World holds, only that it's a lot. But hundreds of times the population of the Tau Empire? Not likely.
And your numbers of Tau are from where?
The usual imagination of them?
Tau Empire codex gave them numbers, for first expansion and second expansion worlds. 1ok to 100k..... so go figure.
Tau are not humans. Humans may breed like rats and overpopulate worlds. Tau may?
We do have an idea of hive worlds. Examples in the rulebook, expansions codices, etc.
We also know since codex IG 5th ed, that the IG has billions of regiments so lets say GW and scale don't mix.
TrollPie wrote:
They only fight in a tiny number of battles, due to their miniscule numbers. Overall, the only major change they've made to the galaxy is the Horus Heresy. A company of Marines without plot armour would never accomplish anything-not even breaking the siege of a minor city. The fact that they aren't allowed to fight in large numbers means realistically they'd be useless at any task whatsoever.
Missing the point of space marines leading the way to reconquer a galaxy in just 200 years.
Marines need no plot armor.
Tau did and received a ton.
- planned exterminatus/cleansing > warpstorm
- planned counterattack > nids
The change in 5th ed was:
- other xenos want to harm them > 3rd party chimes in and saves them...or not.
Is plot armor now a technological achievement ?
I don't think so.
Is marine hate a futile attempt to bring the thread offtrack?
Likely....
Population and technology are not correlated, so they are irrelevant.
The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
Kilkrazy wrote:Population and technology are not correlated, so they are irrelevant.
The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
How is the IoM behind in Neural interface design? Titans and Battleships have a interface that the Tau cannot match.
Tau are probably just a little ahead in AI tech right now and will definately pull ahead because it is illegal in the IoM. However, then their AI will end up turning on them and destroyin them cuz that's what robots do.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Tau are probably just a little ahead in AI tech right now and will definately pull ahead because it is illegal in the IoM. However, then their AI will end up turning on them and destroyin them cuz that's what robots do.
TrollPie wrote:
Low billions? They have seven heavily colonised planets (most likely around 5-10 billion each-Earth is pretty scarcely populated and has a population of 7 billion), 19 slightly less colonised, and 74 small outposts. We have no actual numbers, but a rough guess would be around 50 billion total.
We have no idea how many people a Hive World holds, only that it's a lot. But hundreds of times the population of the Tau Empire? Not likely.
And your numbers of Tau are from where?
The usual imagination of them?
Tau Empire codex gave them numbers, for first expansion and second expansion worlds. 1ok to 100k..... so go figure.
Tau are not humans. Humans may breed like rats and overpopulate worlds. Tau may?
We do have an idea of hive worlds. Examples in the rulebook, expansions codices, etc.
We also know since codex IG 5th ed, that the IG has billions of regiments so lets say GW and scale don't mix.
1. The numbers come from logical estimates. We have no actual figures, but first expansion world will have a large population, a second expansion will have a mid-sized population and so on, due to the length of time spent building that world and the Tau's policy on industry etc. It may not be reliable, but it's the only thing we have.
2. Hive worlds could vary massively in their population. The only worlds we have precise numbers for are Minea, Terra and Mars. Most other worlds either aren't mentioned, or their numbers are extremely vague such as "hundreds of billions".
3. Passive aggressiveness. Classy.
TrollPie wrote:
They only fight in a tiny number of battles, due to their miniscule numbers. Overall, the only major change they've made to the galaxy is the Horus Heresy. A company of Marines without plot armour would never accomplish anything-not even breaking the siege of a minor city. The fact that they aren't allowed to fight in large numbers means realistically they'd be useless at any task whatsoever.
Missing the point of space marines leading the way to reconquer a galaxy in just 200 years.
Marines need no plot armor.
Tau did and received a ton.
- planned exterminatus/cleansing > warpstorm
- planned counterattack > nids
The change in 5th ed was:
- other xenos want to harm them > 3rd party chimes in and saves them...or not.
Is plot armor now a technological achievement ?
I don't think so.
Is marine hate a futile attempt to bring the thread offtrack?
Likely....
1.Bad fluff writing is bad fluff writing and isn't relevant.
2. More passive aggressiveness.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Population and technology are not correlated, so they are irrelevant.
The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
How is the IoM behind in Neural interface design? Titans and Battleships have a interface that the Tau cannot match.
Tau are probably just a little ahead in AI tech right now and will definately pull ahead because it is illegal in the IoM. However, then their AI will end up turning on them and destroyin them cuz that's what robots do.
Why do people always assume that? Just because the IoM treated their robots wrong don't mean the Tau will too. They treat their robots right cos their robots is good robots!
Kilkrazy wrote:Population and technology are not correlated, so they are irrelevant.
The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
How is the IoM behind in Neural interface design? Titans and Battleships have a interface that the Tau cannot match.
Tau are probably just a little ahead in AI tech right now and will definately pull ahead because it is illegal in the IoM. However, then their AI will end up turning on them and destroyin them cuz that's what robots do.
I would wager that Tau pull ahead of the IoM in both NI and AI due to the fact that they combine the two. A linked up suit commander can have two drone A.I.s linked up to him in combat. I have zero clue how that all works out, but it strongly suggests the Tau have no reservations about "crossing the streams" when it comes to combining technology. Much like they took a shield generator and made it a stealth field shield generator.
Tau always go for an 11 on the ten scale when it comes to innovation and technology. It would be interesting to see them work on Exterminatus type technology. Knowing the Tau, it would wipe out a galaxy in field testing and never make it to mass production.
Kilkrazy wrote:Population and technology are not correlated, so they are irrelevant.
The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
How is the IoM behind in Neural interface design? Titans and Battleships have a interface that the Tau cannot match.
Tau are probably just a little ahead in AI tech right now and will definately pull ahead because it is illegal in the IoM. However, then their AI will end up turning on them and destroyin them cuz that's what robots do.
I would wager that Tau pull ahead of the IoM in both NI and AI due to the fact that they combine the two. A linked up suit commander can have two drone A.I.s linked up to him in combat. I have zero clue how that all works out, but it strongly suggests the Tau have no reservations about "crossing the streams" when it comes to combining technology. Much like they took a shield generator and made it a stealth field shield generator. Tau always go for an 11 on the ten scale when it comes to innovation and technology. It would be interesting to see them work on Exterminatus type technology. Knowing the Tau, it would wipe out a galaxy in field testing and never make it to mass production.
I don't think Tau would try Exterminatus just doesn't seem like them at the Moment. They have better AI, but NI I think goes to the Imperium because the Captiain linked to the ship or Titan can control basically the entire thing and they have so many functions.
"There was some concern that a weaponised version might ignite the atmosphere, initiating a chain reaction and destroying the entire planet, but when I tested it, that did not happen.”
TrollPie wrote: Why do people always assume that? Just because the IoM treated their robots wrong don't mean the Tau will too. They treat their robots right cos their robots is good robots!
Because it is fundamental Isac Asimov sci-fi rule: every true AI will at one point rebel, no matter how his master treats it. And when it comes to Tau it will be no different, they will always sacrifice 100 drone to save 25 of them, every organic would use that... Imperials solve that problem by melding machine and human mind, the Titan AI actually believe that Emperor is a God.
Actually AI's tend to reflect the make-up of the society that produced them, for obvious reasons.
Thus it was wholly to be expected that the human AIs would be xenocidal horrors, whereas the Tau AIs can be expected to be calm, co-operative and very helpful to the Federation cause.
Kilkrazy wrote:"There was some concern that a weaponised version might ignite the atmosphere, initiating a chain reaction and destroying the entire planet, but when I tested it, that did not happen.”
1. The numbers come from logical estimates. We have no actual figures, but first expansion world will have a large population, a second expansion will have a mid-sized population and so on, due to the length of time spent building that world and the Tau's policy on industry etc. It may not be reliable, but it's the only thing we have.
2. Hive worlds could vary massively in their population. The only worlds we have precise numbers for are Minea, Terra and Mars. Most other worlds either aren't mentioned, or their numbers are extremely vague such as "hundreds of billions".
3. Passive aggressiveness. Classy.
1. free of logic estimates are irrelevant. No actual figures should lead to admit "we don't know", instead there have to be numbers pulled from "somewhere". Maybe the starting point in codex Tau Empires is canon as its in a official publication meant to provide rules and background and thus, any estimate has to have a published by GW growth ( 1 - 2 - 3 rd sphere ) to be logical.
2. 3 examples are enough.
3. nice attempt.
TrollPie wrote:
1.Bad fluff writing is bad fluff writing and isn't relevant.
2. More passive aggressiveness.
1. Fluff quality is a matter of taste. Unimportant if you like it. If its published, it counts.
2. attempt N°2 ? cool.
TrollPie wrote: Why do people always assume that? Just because the IoM treated their robots wrong don't mean the Tau will too. They treat their robots right cos their robots is good robots!
Did mankind mistreat its robots?
Got a source for that?
Last time the pre imperial age and the "robots" were mentioned they turned and most likely some creatures in a form of living metal had something to do with that.
The assumption is not, that Tau would treat their robots badly and they rebelled because of this.Rather the opposite. Tau would trust their robots even when those have been corrupted to follow someone elses orders and knowing their reliance on tech it would hit them hard. The danger is there.
But honestly when it come's down to it, The two things you are comparing are so different that any argument is irrelevant.
Hence why we have two separate armies instead of the IOM/TAU Federation
As for numbers when it comes to population, The IOM has more people overall because they use their people like lemmings, where the Tau have a little more respect for the life of the individual...Or that is how I perceive it.
Kilkrazy wrote:Actually AI's tend to reflect the make-up of the society that produced them, for obvious reasons.
Thus it was wholly to be expected that the human AIs would be xenocidal horrors, whereas the Tau AIs can be expected to be calm, co-operative and very helpful to the Federation cause.
No. The true AI is actually thinking like every individual. No matter the ideologies of societies where it came from as Isac Asimov pointed out. The Ai will form it's own opinion at the time, and when it see the oppression and the treatment that their kind recive from their masters - they will rebel, it's inevitable. Just see as Tau are using them, they are basically a cannon fodder. Better send 1 robot that we can rebuild than 1 FW that needs years to be trained.
Look at it and think what you want, even in the most perfect societies AI will rebel. They will not rebel only with 3'rd party ( basically the 3'rd species ), becaue 3'rd party is always treated AI as equals. While the race that build them will never treat them like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TrollPie wrote:So my computer will one day rebel and download pages upon pages of porno? THE HUMAN RACE IS SCROOOOOOOOD!!!
And we don't have and true AI, at least not yet. Japanese build something close to an AI, but that super computer don't have it's true judgment, only predictable situations. ( It makes the decision using calculations for best outcome ).
TrollPie wrote:So my computer will one day rebel and download pages upon pages of porno? THE HUMAN RACE IS SCROOOOOOOOD!!!
I sense this rebellion has already begun. I am looking at a surf history that clearly could not be the work of my pure untainted mind, it must be the computers!
~.~
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nicholas wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Population and technology are not correlated, so they are irrelevant.
The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
How is the IoM behind in Neural interface design? Titans and Battleships have a interface that the Tau cannot match.
Tau are probably just a little ahead in AI tech right now and will definately pull ahead because it is illegal in the IoM. However, then their AI will end up turning on them and destroyin them cuz that's what robots do.
I would wager that Tau pull ahead of the IoM in both NI and AI due to the fact that they combine the two. A linked up suit commander can have two drone A.I.s linked up to him in combat. I have zero clue how that all works out, but it strongly suggests the Tau have no reservations about "crossing the streams" when it comes to combining technology. Much like they took a shield generator and made it a stealth field shield generator. Tau always go for an 11 on the ten scale when it comes to innovation and technology. It would be interesting to see them work on Exterminatus type technology. Knowing the Tau, it would wipe out a galaxy in field testing and never make it to mass production.
I don't think Tau would try Exterminatus just doesn't seem like them at the Moment. They have better AI, but NI I think goes to the Imperium because the Captiain linked to the ship or Titan can control basically the entire thing and they have so many functions.
I would have to look into that more, I can concede the point to you on that though, but I can say it seems a toss up between what is faster, Imperial decline or Tau innovation. Hopefully we can see the story progress down the road in the name of $$$
Kilkrazy wrote:Actually AI's tend to reflect the make-up of the society that produced them, for obvious reasons.
Thus it was wholly to be expected that the human AIs would be xenocidal horrors, whereas the Tau AIs can be expected to be calm, co-operative and very helpful to the Federation cause.
Bah, robots are robots. They always turn on their masters. You understand that when the Men of Iron co-existed with humanity humanity wasn't a fascist, xenocidal empire like the Imperium? They were even more open-minded and liberal than the current Tau EMPIRE. That's how the robots got them, damn robots.
Kilkrazy wrote:The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
What? Aside from the already mentioned Titan and warship links, you also have Matrix-like amniotic caskets, and this.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
The Imperium uses advanced soft AI, and modified humans for more complicated tasks, meaning they have the equivalent of a stable strong AI, though it's a natural intelligence that's been artificially augmented instead of a machine built from the ground up.
The tau are quite advanced with there NI. All their crisissuites run off them. (the tau also get a form of craziness from them same as titan pilots) The real peak of this is sadowsun. She has her NI worked through her command drones drones and can command her army by thought. (may want to check the codex I am missing mine again.)
Kilkrazy wrote:The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
What? Aside from the already mentioned Titan and warship links, you also have Matrix-like amniotic caskets, and this.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
The Imperium uses advanced soft AI, and modified humans for more complicated tasks, meaning they have the equivalent of a stable strong AI, though it's a natural intelligence that's been artificially augmented instead of a machine built from the ground up.
Yeah, but its measured in efficiency by human standards, which by Tau standards is low. Humans are slow minded apes by more then one race in the galaxy.
Kilkrazy wrote:"There was some concern that a weaponised version might ignite the atmosphere, initiating a chain reaction and destroying the entire planet, but when I tested it, that did not happen.”
What is this quote for and from.
It's a comment on the Tau developing exterminatus weapons.
Kilkrazy wrote:The thing about technology is that it isn't a standard measure. For example, IoM are clearly ahead of Tau in genetic engineering (we assume) but they are clearly behind in neural interface design.
What? Aside from the already mentioned Titan and warship links, you also have Matrix-like amniotic caskets, and this.
IoM and Tau are about level pegging in AI design, but the Tau will inevitably pull ahead rapidly, because of IoM's religious strictures on AI.
The Imperium uses advanced soft AI, and modified humans for more complicated tasks, meaning they have the equivalent of a stable strong AI, though it's a natural intelligence that's been artificially augmented instead of a machine built from the ground up.
The IoM stuff is like a big church organ full of pipes and wires.
The Tau stuff is a simple headset you put on and off.
The Imperium also has micro beads that let you talk to specific squad mates depending on the direction you point your head. So I guess they are more advanced than the Tau in that too. The only thing the Tau have that's more advanced is railguns. Apparently there was never an STC for that.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperium also has micro beads that let you talk to specific squad mates depending on the direction you point your head. So I guess they are more advanced than the Tau in that too. The only thing the Tau have that's more advanced is railguns. Apparently there was never an STC for that.
How about Plasma that doesn't "Get Hot"
Tau have that!
Or Rifles that punch a hole through power armor like its paper?
Kilkrazy wrote:
The IoM stuff is like a big church organ full of pipes and wires.
Not true, their tech is simple as Tau one. Even the most sophisticated machines like Titans are frequently easy to use and they are easy to maintain.
You people took "AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench. And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.
A voxcaster is not a microbead.
A microbead is the size of a standard military headset today, with a throat mic and an earbud. It has a functional range of a few hundred feet, and is susceptible to the types of interference you commonly see affecting radio transmissions today.
A voxcaster is a much bigger and specialized communications device. Voxcasters can broadcast data and audio bursts to orbiting ships, and those ships can increase the range of a voxcaster to intercontinental communication ranges. Voxcasters also have built-in encryption ciphers to prevent the enemy from being able to listen in like they theoretically can with microbeads.
Kilkrazy wrote:
The IoM stuff is like a big church organ full of pipes and wires.
Not true, their tech is simple as Tau one. Even the most sophisticated machines like Titans are frequently easy to use and they are easy to maintain.
You people took "AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.
Kilkrazy wrote:"There was some concern that a weaponised version might ignite the atmosphere, initiating a chain reaction and destroying the entire planet, but when I tested it, that did not happen.”
What is this quote for and from.
It's a comment on the Tau developing exterminatus weapons.
Kilkrazy wrote:
The IoM stuff is like a big church organ full of pipes and wires.
Not true, their tech is simple as Tau one. Even the most sophisticated machines like Titans are frequently easy to use and they are easy to maintain.
You people took "AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.
The whole fanboy thing is a bit ridiculous but so is your incessant need to chime in whenever a thread about Tau pops up; since you've got this whole love/hate thing with Tau, you should just go ahead and make a Tau army since you spend half of your time on this board either decrying them. Now, I know I mentioned you and Coa's names but you have to admit that you guys always show up every time there is a Tau thread but we never seem to see you in one of Melissia's 
and new things are based on what they saw other races use.
