gargantuan creature rules stsae that sniper and poisoned weapons only wound it on a 6
Vindicare hellfire rounds always wound on a 2+,and are not poisoned like SM hellfires,but are sniper weapons
I'm not familiar with the gargantuan creature rules but basing it purely off of the information you've given about them I would say it wounds on a 6 still. This being that even though the hellfire round of the Vindicare doesn't have the poisoned rule, the rifle itself still uses the sniper rule. So if the rules for gargantuan creatures specifically mention the sniper rule then regardless of what the wound value would normally be it is automatically set to 6.
I would say its the 6 based on the information you provided if the vindicares weapon is classified as a sniper then it is pretty clear. The sniper weapon vs Gargantuan creature is more specific than the vindicares 2+ to wound vs everything(non vehicle) rule.
Actually GW answer is roll of rather then spoil the game, then discus and create a house rule later.
I think the biggest problem is Apocalypse rules were designed to mesh with the 4th edition rule books and codices. Since the rules for gargantuan creatures state that all sniper weapons wound on 6+ that's what you getting.
thats why GW write new codexes tinstead of simply writng an FAQ saying ignore all references to target priority.tell GW to change it.if enough people say so,they might do it!
Just like I am aware that all versions of the Hellfire Round in the Imperium are listed as poison attacks, except for this poorly researched and written one.
If you want an even more confusing one to this same question, look at the entry in the Blood Angels codex
How is it poorly researched? It's the same Hellfire round used by how many other marine chapters, but he forgot to put the poison tag on the end. It's like putting melta guns in the codex, stating they get the extra pen dice, but forgetting to put the actual melta rule in the entry. Then you would have another silly situation just like this where henchmen lists would be claiming their melta guns DO work on an Eldar Avatar because their guns don't have the "melta" rule listed.
The BA codex has the hellfire round clearly listed as 2+ poison, but puts a * at the end of it for a special note
The special note then says something along the lines of how this round always wounds on a 2+... which you should already have known since it was poisoned, but now you could claim that poisoned or not, the BA round should still wound Gagantuan creatures on a 2+ since the rule has "always" in it. A case where redundancy actually confused a rule instead of confirming it
Deadshot wrote:its confusing because they both say ALWAYS wound on a (6/2+)
thanks for your imput
The special ability of the weapon isn't that special. The rule for gargantuan says all sniper and w/e, and the vindicare rifle has the sniper (I'm assuming). That's it.
Saying otherwise is like saying "the rule for [example vehicle] say it's immune to melta, but the melta rules say they roll 2d6 for penetration, so what applies?" It seems obvious.
Lordhat wrote:
Deadshot wrote:its confusing because they both say ALWAYS wound on a (6/2+)
thanks for your imput
The official answer according to GW's FAQ is:
I can guess what's in that video...
don_mondo wrote:
Deadshot wrote:good answer
Not really, all it does is encourage people to argue knowing that they'll get their way (even if it's obviously wrong) half the time.
TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would certainly solve several of the problems with being an edition out of date.
...and this is truth. Going by frequent experiences (need I mention for everything, every game, even before GW made that rule), just thinking about it makes my blood pressure go up, by alot. Like i'm seriously going to turn my air conditioner up and take off all my clothes now to cool down.
I'm only 2/3 serious..... I keep my shorts and socks on.
omerakk wrote:I'm aware of that
Just like I am aware that all versions of the Hellfire Round in the Imperium are listed as poison attacks, except for this poorly researched and written one.
If you want an even more confusing one to this same question, look at the entry in the Blood Angels codex
I see what you guys are talking about. There is alot of issues with those assassins, hopefully I can avoid them for 10 years until they get rewritten.
omerakk wrote:How is it poorly researched? It's the same Hellfire round used by how many other marine chapters, but he forgot to put the poison tag on the end. It's like putting melta guns in the codex, stating they get the extra pen dice, but forgetting to put the actual melta rule in the entry. Then you would have another silly situation just like this where henchmen lists would be claiming their melta guns DO work on an Eldar Avatar because their guns don't have the "melta" rule listed.
The BA codex has the hellfire round clearly listed as 2+ poison, but puts a * at the end of it for a special note
The special note then says something along the lines of how this round always wounds on a 2+... which you should already have known since it was poisoned, but now you could claim that poisoned or not, the BA round should still wound Gagantuan creatures on a 2+ since the rule has "always" in it. A case where redundancy actually confused a rule instead of confirming it
in the case of the melta,GWwould correct this in FAQ
the antimelta armour,ie stormravens,thunderhawks,etc,say that shots that fire do not get tyhe extra dice for melta,not as you put it,immune to melta.
thirdly,you cannot use BLOOD ANGELS CODEX RULES for a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT.you cannot say vindicares fire the same rounds as BA,that btw can only be used in a bolter.The assassin uses exitus weaponry,so fires a different shell.it is not written anywhere as poisoned so it is not poisoned.
but in the overall scheme of things it matters not wehat your opinion is because i decide whether im doing the right thing or not.
in the case of the melta,GWwould correct this in FAQ
Only because it has far more problems than the hellfire round, which only seems to effect 1 type of unit in an outdated version of the game they haven't bothered correcting in a long time
the antimelta armour,ie stormravens,thunderhawks,etc,say that shots that fire do not get tyhe extra dice for melta,not as you put it,immune to melta.
I never said anything about those units, I was talking about the Eldar Avatar which is immune to the melta rule. I was pointing out a single instance where such a problem could occur, similar to what you were point out by starting this thread.
thirdly,you cannot use BLOOD ANGELS CODEX RULES for a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT.you cannot say vindicares fire the same rounds as BA,that btw can only be used in a bolter.The assassin uses exitus weaponry,so fires a different shell.it is not written anywhere as poisoned so it is not poisoned.
You asked what was confusing about the BA codex, I told you, and now you're upset at me for doing it? That's a new one And what exactly makes you think the same type of round can't be used in different weapons? Assault rifles and sniper rifles can both be issued the same type in real life, and in the game, there are several weapons that fire the same types of rounds already. Why is this scenario totally impossible for the grey knights codex? Remember the multi laser and krak missile misprints from a few years ago? Is it that big of a stretch that the same thing might have happened here by sheer oversight?
but in the overall scheme of things it matters not wehat your opinion is because i decide whether im doing the right thing or not.
So then wtf was the point of this thread if you didn't want anyone's opinion unless they agreed with you? I'll step out of this conversation now by saying the same thing to you that I said to scout-shunters a few months back: Play it however you like for now and have fun... just don't act shocked when a future faq ruins your fun.
in the case of the melta,GWwould correct this in FAQ
Only because it has far more problems than the hellfire round, which only seems to effect 1 type of unit in an outdated version of the game they haven't bothered correcting in a long time
the antimelta armour,ie stormravens,thunderhawks,etc,say that shots that fire do not get tyhe extra dice for melta,not as you put it,immune to melta.
I never said anything about those units, I was talking about the Eldar Avatar which is immune to the melta rule. I was pointing out a single instance where such a problem could occur, similar to what you were point out by starting this thread.
thirdly,you cannot use BLOOD ANGELS CODEX RULES for a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT.you cannot say vindicares fire the same rounds as BA,that btw can only be used in a bolter.The assassin uses exitus weaponry,so fires a different shell.it is not written anywhere as poisoned so it is not poisoned.
You asked what was confusing about the BA codex, I told you, and now you're upset at me for doing it? That's a new one And what exactly makes you think the same type of round can't be used in different weapons? Assault rifles and sniper rifles can both be issued the same type in real life, and in the game, there are several weapons that fire the same types of rounds already. Why is this scenario totally impossible for the grey knights codex? Remember the multi laser and krak missile misprints from a few years ago? Is it that big of a stretch that the same thing might have happened here by sheer oversight?
but in the overall scheme of things it matters not wehat your opinion is because i decide whether im doing the right thing or not.
So then wtf was the point of this thread if you didn't want anyone's opinion unless they agreed with you? I'll step out of this conversation now by saying the same thing to you that I said to scout-shunters a few months back: Play it however you like for now and have fun... just don't act shocked when a future faq ruins your fun.
theway the blood angels bit was written made it sound as if you saying use their rules.the melta rule would be a misprint because it would be written asd meklta one time and not anywhere else.Besides the Avatar would still be immune because he is immune to any heat based weapons,including meltas,whether with the rule or not,as per the Eldar FAQ
Hellfire rounds in all SM codexessay that they can only be used in bolters(and in fluff terms s.bolters and pistol because thy shoot the same round)buyt vindicares fire different ones,as noted by different wording and ap.
i wrote the posting to get opinions and reasons,but if you look at the results most people agree weith you and some agree with me,it probably ios a misprint and as soon as games workshop fixes it ill be happy,but untill then im reading the RAW because no other Grey Knight unit has them to compare.
Automatically Appended Next Post: asnd you cant compare to other codexes.
actually i have new info.i sent the problem to GW email,they wrote back saying that codex rules override expansion rules,every time,so the assassin would wound on 2+,but his other shots on a 6 as normal as they do not say they wound on a specific number
Deadshot wrote:actually i have new info.i sent the problem to GW email,they wrote back saying that codex rules override expansion rules,every time,so the assassin would wound on 2+,but his other shots on a 6 as normal as they do not say they wound on a specific number
If you write to GW 3 different times, you'll receive 5 different answers. It's an absolutely terrible way to get a rules question answered.
Deadshot wrote:actually i have new info.i sent the problem to GW email,they wrote back saying that codex rules override expansion rules,every time,so the assassin would wound on 2+,but his other shots on a 6 as normal as they do not say they wound on a specific number
If you write to GW 3 different times, you'll receive 5 different answers. It's an absolutely terrible way to get a rules question answered.
+1 to this. Writing/calling gw will not solve anything for you.
but it helps.they wrote the rules so they can use them as they see fit.there is also the problem of necron tomb stalkers which have the same rule,but GW says that the necron codex overrides assassin
How are we supposed to just believe that you sent an email and got a reply? you have no backing on your argument other than
"I have an email"(which may or may not be true). Even the YMDC tenets point out the flaw
Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.
you need a good backing for your argument and claiming to have an email may fall short of that.
I don't mean this to sound in an way that I am accusing you of lying, I am just pointing out that in a forum discussion the "I have proof, but haven't shown you yet" argument needs to carry very little weight.
Oh, did you get an answer from the codex's author? Thought not. You are just getting some random employee's response. Which is fine if that works for you, but then why bother coming on to YMDC if you are already convinced that you have THE TRUTH?
theway the blood angels bit was written made it sound as if you saying use their rules.the melta rule would be a misprint because it would be written asd meklta one time and not anywhere else.Besides the Avatar would still be immune because he is immune to any heat based weapons,including meltas,whether with the rule or not,as per the Eldar FAQ
That illustrates my point though; how would you know the melta rule was a misprint just because it was written only 1 time in the codex in that scenario? The hellfire rounds are written only one time in the codex. How would you know that the specific melta gun in question was actually a heat attack if there was no melta rule, no fluff to the gun, all it said was "this weapon uses 2d6 for armor pen"
You wouldn't know. You're just assuming it's a clear answer because you've seen the weapon name "melta gun" a few dozen times in the rest of the game. Personally, I think the name "HellFIRE" round sounds a bit like a heat based attack, but there's no way I would ever let an Avatar claim immunity to them because I'm assuming they are just like the other dozen Hellfire rounds in the game since they have the same name and wound on the same number.
Hellfire rounds in all SM codexessay that they can only be used in bolters(and in fluff terms s.bolters and pistol because thy shoot the same round)buyt vindicares fire different ones,as noted by different wording and ap.
Lasguns and hotshot lasguns are different weapons with different ap, but they fire the same type of energy round.
Deadshot wrote:but it helps.they wrote the rules so they can use them as they see fit.there is also the problem of necron tomb stalkers which have the same rule,but GW says that the necron codex overrides assassin
That is a problem though, individual authors are hired to write the codex's, and when you write or call gw, you aren't talking to them... you are talking to 1 out of several hundred customer support people who are giving you their idea on how the rules should work. There's actually no difference between doing that and asking people on here; you'll get different answers every time. That's why the forum rules say not to use them as an example, you'll just frustrate yourself doing that.
As it's all been pointed out though, these are all moot points since gargantuan creatures specifically call out sniper rifles, and you are shooting from a sniper rifle.
because the melta gun has a profile that says range X,sX,apX type assaultX(melta)etc,all the hellfire says is Hellfire rounds:this shot always wounds on a 2+
It is a special rule that makes that shot wound on 2+ not it being a sniper weapon (which means it wounds on a 4+) and not it being poisoned. so the gargantuan rule wouldn't apply here.
Deadshot wrote:because the melta gun has a profile that says range X,sX,apX type assaultX(melta)etc,all the hellfire says is Hellfire rounds:this shot always wounds on a 2+
and how does that prove it's a heat weapon if the "melta" rule at the end is missing and Ward decided to right out the armor pen rule only?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:It never specifies that a sniper weapon firing normal ammo wounds on a 6+, it says sniper weapons which the rifle and pistol both are.
exactly, it calls out sniper weapons specifically.
heat based weapons is a fluff thing,as demonstrated by the plasma syphon,which affects plasma wepons that say plasma in the name,as well as plasma missles,pulse weapons,burst cannons etc.if in a weapon descrition it says
"fires a blast of superheated energy..."
Range X SX APX Type X
or something similar,like dragonfire bolts or castellan rocketysd then its heat based
and all weapons have a range x, str x, ap x, and type x
if you have no type or supporting fluff for a weapon, the strength range and ap aren't going to tell you what the heck it is. If you aren't relying on previous standards, then you have no answer, period.
Kharnflakes wrote:Actually it calls out sniper weapons which have a rule that says they wound on 4+ always. the vindicare's shot is using a completely different rule.
It doesn't say anything about the special rules though, now does it. All the gargantuan creature rule says is "All attacks from sniper and poisoned weapons wound on a 6"
Neither the sniper rules nor the hellfire round rules prevent this. You're firing your round from a sniper weapon, all sniper weapon attacks wound on a 6.
Fyi, the old "shunting is allowed in the scout phase" poll was heavily in favor of it too, and look how that turned out
Kharnflakes wrote:It is a special rule that makes that shot wound on 2+ not it being a sniper weapon (which means it wounds on a 4+) and not it being poisoned. so the gargantuan rule wouldn't apply here.
I thought the entire reason this topic was started was some exitus rifle rule that was saying it's sniper ability works on a 2+ rather than 4+. So this entire thing is about the hellfire round? Because some noob forgot to write in it's poisoned, like every other hellfire round used by the Imperium? This is stupid. Yet-
Kharnflakes wrote:Actually it calls out sniper weapons which have a rule that says they wound on 4+ always. the vindicare's shot is using a completely different rule.
-I would still go with this, for reasons that people won't listen to because it uses logic and RAI rather than being written down in very specific wording to ensure that an old book is still compatible... Yeah.
Kharnflakes wrote:It is a special rule that makes that shot wound on 2+ not it being a sniper weapon (which means it wounds on a 4+) and not it being poisoned. so the gargantuan rule wouldn't apply here.
The gargantuan rule applies to sniper and poisoned. So this 1 existus shot should actually be 2 reasons why it would apply. Yet I feel that talking is a waste of effort...
omerakk wrote:
This conversation is reminding me of the ones Deathreaper usually makes:
U mad? I'm guessing so, because this was totally pointless. Although I would like to fuel this anyways, in hopes the thread gets locked for bursting into flames.
Kharnflakes wrote:Because some noob forgot to write in it's poisoned, like every other hellfire round used by the Imperium
if your calling me a noob im seriously offended.i did not forget to write it in,it is not mentioned in fluff or rules that it is poisoned.maybe it is different round because
a)no one else has an exitus pattern rifle/pistol
b)every other unit that uses it fires it from bolters,SM,BA,etc
It wasn't really pointless; this does sound exactly like the last 5 threads he started that got locked for being pointless This one is actually rather fun. So far, I have learned that:
Hellfire rounds are not Hellfire rounds
Sniper weapons are not Sniper weapons
All doesn't = All
It really IS the krak missile debate all over again!! Does anyone still have the link to that phone video?
thats what i want too.i believe in the saying,no quarter given,no quarter taken,meaning that i'd be really p-ed off if i lost,later to find that the 6 shots that rolled a 3,should have killed the modal that single handedly beat me hands down
I'm a Tyranid player who's likely to encounter a Vindicare at some point. I'd be prepared to compromise on a "Hellfire wounding Gargantuans on a 4+" agreement, if a player wasn't happy with the 'weapons with the sniper rule always need a 6 to wound it no matter what other rules they have regarding rolling to wound' position.
It's a middle ground on an issue that's likely to never be FAQ'd. (We gave GW our monies for the Apoc rulebook, and for the supplements that add three things to the army we actually use, and for the stack of models to make into formations that now have terminal clashes with the Codex and are near unplayable. The shareholders and execs have their sports cars, the website has photos of people throwing buckets of dice across battlefields, and the matter is thereby closed.)
Hellfire rounds were specifically designed to inflict horrendous damage on Tyranids, in a fashion that can't be evolved around. Here they're being fired from a gun that routinely blasts Land Raiders to pieces, by a marksman who routinely puts a bullet through the eye of a target half a city away. It's fair to assume there's a reasonable chance of a higher success rate of causing damage than for a Ratling with a mass-produced rifle.
There's an argument for letting Johnny Vindicare take pot-shots at a big regenerator than putting two wounds on a Prime or Broodlord to prevent wound allocation. Giving him false hope of giantkilling could be an asset!
lindsay40k wrote:Hellfire rounds were specifically designed to inflict horrendous damage on Tyranids, in a fashion that can't be evolved around. Here they're being fired from a gun that routinely blasts Land Raiders to pieces, by a marksman who routinely puts a bullet through the eye of a target half a city away. It's fair to assume there's a reasonable chance of a higher success rate of causing damage than for a Ratling with a mass-produced rifle.
There's a few fallacies. I know most people don't understand alot of the physics of weapons and combat, and i'm not going to explain it all. It would be wrong for you to assume that because a land raider can be blown up that this weapon would even be effective against a large tyranid.
So far the GW stats for the weapon make no sense, or I haven't realized what it is yet. Physics and the rules will never get along with this one, and reality is irrelevant to 40k rules, so i'll just skip talking about it's stats.
Actually I don't want to do an in depth explanation for the reasoning behind the gargantuan rule either, because it shows another flaw with the system. Now it makes me wonder if they created the rule for the reason I thought, because how could this be represented so poorly? The alternative is they made it up for no reason, and that can't be it...
So I don't know if I even said anything, but hey, it took me half an hour to write this, so i'm already sleeping...
Erik - you do realise the vindicare has different rounds?
The hellfire was indeed developed to combat tyranids
Turbo penetrator blows landraiders away
they are two different rounds. So, before commenting on others fallacies, you should probably remove your own first - namely ignorance of the rules for the vindicare
Well hang on there, let's just throw together the known facts.
A Gargantuan Creature is absolutely ruddy gigantic. The 'this stuff only wounds on a 6' represents the fact that most poisoned and precision strikes that'll turn a human-sized target into a headless, frothing corpse are just pinpricks to it.
The Exitus Long Rifle is a ludicrously powerful sci-fi sniper rifle. Even its standard ammo makes a mockery of the most effective personal armour in its sci-fi setting.
The Vindicare is an incredibly good marksman. On a target like a Heirodule, he's going to be hitting it in the eye an awful lot.
Hellfire is like Kryptonite to Tyranids. It's a mutagenic acid that was specifically designed as a chemical weapon against which hyper-evolution is no defence.
Someone that skilled, putting a round of that stuff into the brain of a creature with that rifle, can reasonably be expected to have a significantly better chance of doing noticeable damage than a Guardsman desperately plugging las rounds into its eye - that in all likelihood are barely leaving marks on an inch-thick transparent chitinous protective layer.
Now wait a minute, lindsay just quoted the fluff for the hellfire round used by the OTHER space marine armies, which are poisoned. That's why they wound easily but have no ap and use the ap of the weapon fired. If you're agreeing with lindsay's interpretation, then you're agreeing it's the same type of round
lindsay40k wrote:Well hang on there, let's just throw together the known facts.
A Gargantuan Creature is absolutely ruddy gigantic. The 'this stuff only wounds on a 6' represents the fact that most poisoned and precision strikes that'll turn a human-sized target into a headless, frothing corpse are just pinpricks to it.
The Exitus Long Rifle is a ludicrously powerful sci-fi sniper rifle. Even its standard ammo makes a mockery of the most effective personal armour in its sci-fi setting.
The Vindicare is an incredibly good marksman. On a target like a Heirodule, he's going to be hitting it in the eye an awful lot. Someone that skilled, putting a round of that stuff into the brain of a creature with that rifle, can reasonably be expected to have a significantly better chance of doing noticeable damage than a Guardsman desperately plugging las rounds into its eye - that in all likelihood are barely leaving marks on an inch-thick transparent chitinous protective layer.
this is the parts i was talking about ,sorry.the bits about vindicares hitting eyes and that.
you can't just assume that hellfires are the same as any others just because they have the same name.unless its then it can't be poisoned.RAI is different.if the author simply left it of by accident then GW will FAQ it and problem solverd.alternitivly they could update Apoc to cope,like they did with CoD
The round fired doesn't matter, it's still a sniper weapon no matter how you look at it. You still benefit from the sniper bonuses with it. It wounds on a 6+.
It seems to me the fact that the Exitus rifle is a sniper weapon is being glossed over in favor of what kind of bullet it actually fires. Regardless of the round being fired the rifle is and will always be a sniper weapon this falling under the purview of the Gargantuan creature rule.
For instance, if you were to shoot at a squad of space marines with the hellfire round and kill someone would they have to take a pinning test? The answer would be yes, because the squad has taken a wound from a weapon with the Sniper special rule.
The Gargantuan creature rule is more specific than the hellfire rule because it highlights Sniper weapons in its text. If the hellfire round had an added line of "Always wounds gargantuan creatures on a 2+" you would have a basis for argument. Unfortunately it doesn't so the hellfire round rule becomes the general statement with the Gargantuan creature rule becoming a more specific sub category of possible scenarios.
Kevin949 wrote:The round fired doesn't matter, it's still a sniper weapon no matter how you look at it. You still benefit from the sniper bonuses with it. It wounds on a 6+.
And which bonuses would that be?
ok lets take a step back and look at it this way the apocalypse rules are an extention of the core rules yes? therefore a core rulebook
and codex rules ALWAYS superceeds core rules.
so regardless if the round it poisoned or not (which at the current time it is not) or if its fired from a sniper rifle the rule in the codex says it always wounds on a 2+. not it always wounds on a 2+ except against gargantuan creatures.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh and kevin the round fired does matter when it has a special rule that says different than the core rules
Kevin949 wrote:The round fired doesn't matter, it's still a sniper weapon no matter how you look at it. You still benefit from the sniper bonuses with it. It wounds on a 6+.
And which bonuses would that be?
ok lets take a step back and look at it this way the apocalypse rules are an extention of the core rules yes? therefore a core rulebook
and codex rules ALWAYS superceeds core rules.
so regardless if the round it poisoned or not (which at the current time it is not) or if its fired from a sniper rifle the rule in the codex says it always wounds on a 2+. not it always wounds on a 2+ except against gargantuan creatures.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh and kevin the round fired does matter when it has a special rule that says different than the core rules
Rending, Pinning, always wounds on 4+...those bonuses. So if you didn't know what they are, you shouldn't be commenting. And before you jump on the "but it's not a 4+ it's a 2+ because of the hellfire round!1!1!1!" or whatever, the fact remains it is STILL a sniper weapon and it will STILL only wound on a 6+. Doesn't matter if the round is poisoned or not, IT IS A SNIPER WEAPON. It's a hellfire round, fired from a sniper rifle.
Also, what Nos said. FYI, you could say that the apoc books are the codex for gargantuan creatures.
So the round says it wounds on a 2+, big deal. what about the tomb stalker? It has a near identical rule to gargantuan creatures, what's your ruling on that? Snipers always wound on a 4+, the round being fired modifies it to a 2+ but it is still a SNIPER weapon. I'm making this as clear as possible. I don't care about the poison ruling, it's moot. So, you have two rules that state you always wound on an X+ roll. But you're firing at a specific creature that states "sniper" weapons only wound on a 6+. So, you still wound on a 2+ against everything else, except gargantuan creatures because their rule is the more specific. And yes, it is still a sniper rifle shooting the round.
i have only seen never ending circles of the same 2 arguments:
-"sniper rifles wound gargantuan on 6+ it doesn´t matter which bullet is firing...."
-"the hellfire round wounds always wounds 2+ the codex overrides the book rule...."
-"IT IS A SNIPER RIFLE...."
-"shut up ...."
-"no, you shut up..."
-etc.
in my opinion both sides are using valid arguments and there is no sure way to determine which rule overrides the other, the only sensible and reasonable answer (posted by lindsey40K) is let it wound on 4+ IMHO.
I really can't believe this has gone on for 3 pages. The rules for Gargantuan creatures state, as has already been pointed out, "ALL sniper weapons and poisoned weapons wound gargantuan creatures only on a roll of 6." (emphasis mine.)
It says "all sniper weapons." All of them. What is being used to fire a hellfire round? An Exitus pistol and/or rifle. What are the special rules for these weapons? That they are "pistol, sniper" and "heavy 1, sniper", respectively. So Exitus weapons are sniper weapons and would fall under the category of "all sniper weapons." Normally a round from a sniper weapon wounds on a 4+. The hellfire round simply allows the sniper weapon to wound on a 2+ instead, just like a turbo round wounds on a 4+ but inflicts 2 wounds instead. Both are different types of SNIPER ammo for the Exitus pistol/rifle, which are both sniper weapons.
If the hellfire round was being fired from a boltgun, as long as it didn't also have the "poison" special rule attached to it, then it would wound a gargantuan creature on a 2+ as it is not being fired from a sniper weapon. However, since it IS being shot from a sniper weapon, then it will only wound gargantuan creatures on a 6+, as the gargantuan creature rules affect ALL attacks from ALL sniper and poison WEAPONS. It doesn't matter what type of AMMO is being used, rather it is what type of WEAPON.
I agree with the RAW interpretation of 'it wounds on a 6+'. However in the real-world situation of transporting several cases of figures to a venue to find an opponent refuses to shift from the 'it always wounds on a 2+ no matter what because the 2+ doesn't come from poison or sniper' position, there's enough fluff on their side for me to happily propose my 4+ compromise as a way to get the damn game started, and in future think of that opponent a little more as a TFG and be slightly less keen to play them again.
lindsay40k wrote:I agree with the RAW interpretation of 'it wounds on a 6+'. However in the real-world situation of transporting several cases of figures to a venue to find an opponent refuses to shift from the 'it always wounds on a 2+ no matter what because the 2+ doesn't come from poison or sniper' position, there's enough fluff on their side for me to happily propose my 4+ compromise as a way to get the damn game started, and in future think of that opponent a little more as a TFG and be slightly less keen to play them again.
It's a sniper so it wounds on a 6 ... no being TFG by asking to play by the rules ...
...but really why are you that desperate to use him? Surely you have other more powerful weapons? Vortex grenades, D weapons, titans ...
I am currently playing a campaign at my local GW that allows all maribnes,GK and witch hunters and IG to bwe chosen in the same army list.aat ther end of it in august,there is a 3 day long apoc against die-hard vets who have won 2 weekly bonuses already
infiltrate all around upgrade 1 modal per army list to have a power weapon,doubles that modals base attacks,strength,and ignores EW.
we have FNP for 1 turn.
there arwe a lot more veteran players on the other side,and I know for a fact that 1 has a scratch built warlord titan,and an other has 6 shadowswords,3stormswords,a reaver,and a pair of warhounds.this itself is not the issue.the issue in is that the tyranids,necrons,orks and DE are on the chaos side.
my side includes.
a 1000 pts GK army a 2500pts IG army my own 4000pts vanilla marine army,4000pts because i squeeze every upgrade possible onto every unit. my assassin and Kaldor Draigo. my stormraven. some other BA and nilla marine armies for beginners,bout AoBR+land raider and/orSR mno apoc units like GCs or SHV on my side,in fact,no
aside from valkeries/vendettas or SRs being used as flyers,we have no apoc stuff.if push comes to shove then i want a man who is almost stone cold guarenteed to wound GCs,rather than use BCs and Plasmas,to wound minimum toughness of 7 IIRC
If you write to GW three times you'll get three different answers. If you write to any three people you'll get three different answers. That's kind of strange, seeing as how there are only two options.
If you want to go by roll-off though, you can use your poll as a guide. 67% think it should wound on a 6+... so make that a 3+ on your 'problem resolution' test.
Well Deadshot, Vindicare assassins wound on a 6. Still you have a shed load of Imperial stuff lets see what you can get.
Vortex Grenade! Take it give it to a character reserve him drop him far away from your main force and then throw it. It is beautiful, remove anything it touches no save of any kind. (supers and garantuans take D3 structure and D6 wounds ... still epic)
Master of the chapter (200pts+ models) (min model cost 725pts 1CM,4C, 1T) (min total 925pts but those models / unit can basically have and do anything they like ... normally I'll give one a means to DS and a vortex grenade ... sure he dies but my god that grenade is funny) This gets you the following assets:- Ambush - pick a unit that has arrived from strategic reserves every model is hit by an AP3 Sniper. In addition any unit that uses flank march (that turn is also hit). Precision Strike - Pick one enemy unit (not a flyer) all friendly models shooting at it will hit on a 2+ (worth taking with orks) Orbital Bombardment - when you get to use it you get a nice Str8 AP3 ApocBarrage 4 ( always hit side armour). and count as ordnance. Surgical Raids - Each enemy unit that consists of a single model suffers a Str5, AP2 hit (vehicles are hit on side armour) .... Might not sound amazing but there are loads of single models out there.
If you have 3+ Predators then ... Predator Assassin Squadron (50pts+ models) ... is for you Target Acquired - Pick a target before the game and you must now destroy it before you can pick some thing else. So long as the support tanks are within 6" of the command tank they may reroll all failed to hits. (tip keep the command tank cheap and hidden so you can TL for longer)
The question is not what alternatives an Imperial player has to firing an Exitus Hellfire round at a Gargantuan, it's the rules issues and social situation that can arise when they feel there's no other option but to do so.
lindsay40k wrote:The question is not what alternatives an Imperial commander has to firing an Exitus Hellfire round at a Gargantuan, it's the rules issues and social situation that can arise when they feel there's no other option but to do so.
No rules issue, Sniper rifles wound on a 6. While you might might think that's unfair it what gargantuan creature do. If you need options I've given some but anything else is wishful thinking.
lindsay40k wrote:The question is not what alternatives an Imperial commander has to firing an Exitus Hellfire round at a Gargantuan, it's the rules issues and social situation that can arise when they feel there's no other option but to do so.
No rules issue, Sniper rifles wound on a 6. While you might might think that's unfair it what gargantuan creature do. If you need options I've given some but anything else is wishful thinking.
I've already said that I agree with your rules interpretation.
but if you read the posts so far you'd realize that hellfire rounds fired by vindicares are NOT poisoned,RAW,and simply has a special rule that means it wounds on 2+,thats why the thread was started.
hellfires shot by bolters and heavy bloters have no such grey areas as they are poisoned,and have the poisoned rule,2+,RAW.
Deadshot wrote:but if you read the posts so far you'd realize that hellfire rounds fired by vindicares are NOT poisoned,RAW,and simply has a special rule that means it wounds on 2+,thats why the thread was started.
hellfires shot by bolters and heavy bloters have no such grey areas as they are poisoned,and have the poisoned rule,2+,RAW.
First of, I read all the desperate justification... but that doesn't change anything
You're got to know its an accidental omission and you're just playing the anal rule lawyer... right? I mean, there's no way you actually believe that all hellfire rounds are poisoned weapons, except the vindicare hellfire round, which somehow acts like a poisoned round but for some super special reason (so cool, that not even the fluff references it) is actually not a poisoned round. Its like arguing that an inferno pistol that doesn't say "melta" after it, gets the melta effect but isn't a melta weapon. Come on!
I thought the entire reason this topic was started was some exitus rifle rule that was saying it's sniper ability works on a 2+ rather than 4+. So this entire thing is about the hellfire round? Because some noob forgot to write in it's poisoned, like every other hellfire round used by the Imperium? This is stupid. Yet-
I'm guessing so, because this was totally pointless. Although I would like to fuel this anyways, in hopes the thread gets locked for bursting into flames.
