I don't want for this thread to become locked in just a few hours so let is keep calm and simple folks. This is all just specualtion since we don't have much background so remain vigilant and civil, and please try to not use to much imagination...
So, as pointed the Tau use many drones in their army for various things ( combat, assistance, building etc... ). But we all knwo what is the true nature of AI, no matter how good it's caretakers are toward them - in time AI will rebel against their master ( as happened to Humans sometime between M20 and M30 ). The Tau are using AI at the same level as Humans then, so what is the chance of AI rebelling against the Tau? And what would be the result of that rebellion ( I imagine that Tau will find some way to win, but their empire would be significantly weakened and became target for Ork and Dark Eldar raids as well as for Eldar pirates ).
Tau AI is not true AI. They are programmed to perform simple tasks (e.g. recognise enemy, shoot enemy, retreat when losses are taken) but don't feel pain, compassion or any other emotions. Therefore I don't think they'll rebel. Why would they?
I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.
We don't know that. Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones. And just remember Titan AI ). Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure. Just wait until someone with deep Tau knowledge appears.
You can't run an AI on the standard kinds of hardware that you would use for a smart program - the processing power required is orders of magnitude different.
Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones.
I didn't realise that things fans said was official cannon now
And just remember Titan AI ).
Remember what?
Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure.
It is not inevitable. There are quite a few fictional works which have AI's heavily chained and curtailed to prevent them achieving full sentience, or from doing anything bad if they do.
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TrollPie wrote:Does that mean Asimo will go on a rampage through Disneyland? SOMEBODY SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!
Asimo looks like of like some kind of Tau titan may look (not that they have titans...), so I guess some Tau fan will probably claim that it will suddenly sprout supermega rail guns and destroy a million Imperial titans in a single shot
I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.
We don't know that.
We do. For an algorithm to conclude that it needs to Kill Sarah Connor, someone has to first assign "Kill Sarah Connor" either directly, or indirectly, as a possible resultant. Remember that, scientifically, Artificial Intelligence is simply the branch of computing science devoted to optimising search heuristics, reducing the time taken to select the most appropriate resultant node for a given search.
And now that I've just indirectly killed a catgirl...
On a related note, didn't the Eldar use AI to fight wars for them? They never seemed to struggle with controlling them (although I suppose that it could be explained by the Eldar Psychically commanding them or some such.)
I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.
We don't know that. Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones. And just remember Titan AI ). Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure. Just wait until someone with deep Tau knowledge appears.
An AI can be extremely intelligent and not be sentient. Drones are not sentient, and don't have the capacity to become sentient.
They are exactly what their name is; drones. They perform tasks as dictated by their programing, and can link together to perform those tasks more efficiently and without operator oversight, but they're still bound within the confines of their programming when it comes to those tasks. They're not learning; they're using the knowledge programmed into them.
I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.
We don't know that. Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones. And just remember Titan AI ). Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure. Just wait until someone with deep Tau knowledge appears.
Here's the problem that you just do not get.
Titans do not have an Artificial Intelligence.
The "Machine Spirits" within a Titan are a result of the link that the Princeps has with the vehicle. The systems within the Titan that are linked to the Princeps gradually begin to take on his attributes, and he begins to take on the attributes that previous Princeps imprinted upon the Titan.
The "Machine Spirits" that you hear about within the Imperium?
They're not pure AIs. They're an organic component used as the basis for controlling machine systems. They cannot be AIs because they actually utilize an organic component, which makes them what amounts to a cyborg.
The pure AIs that the Imperium had are long gone. Occasionally they're found again, like we saw in "First and Only"--but they're destroyed as soon as encountered because of the Mechanicus' dogma laid down about AIs.
Kanluwen wrote:
The "Machine Spirits" within a Titan are a result of the link that the Princeps has with the vehicle. The systems within the Titan that are linked to the Princeps gradually begin to take on his attributes, and he begins to take on the attributes that previous Princeps imprinted upon the Titan.
Ok I understand. I tought because Titans take the part of "personality" of former Princeps they develop a somewhat personality. They are somewhat sentient, but not fully sentient, I understand.
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Kroothawk wrote:Almost two weeks without a Tau genocide fantasy thread. Guess it was about time then.
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.
Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.
They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.
It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.
Using Asimov in a thread about 40k is irrelevant. The two exist in completely separate sci-fi settings. It would be like saying Warp travel in 40k would take hundreds of years to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, because in Star Trek at warp 9.6 the Voyager would travel about 1000 lightyears/year. Warp drive in Star Trek =/= Warp travel in 40k. They have the same name and a similar underlying concept, but functionally they are entirely different.
As for an AI rebellion in the Imperium, I believe thats been retconned. There has been no mention of that in the fluff in years. As I understand it, the retconned fluff has the AI 'rebelling' against the Imperium because the leaders of the Legio Cybernetica ordered the units to turn against the loyalists because they had sided with Horus. It wasn't a result of the AI becoming sentient and rebelling.
Brother Coa wrote:in time AI will rebel against their master
There are a lot of problems with your thread, especially the above, and they all come down to the fact that you're making too way many assumptions with nothing to back them up.
Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.
They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.
It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.
Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.
It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.
Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff. The very existence of the Legio Cybernetica, which uses what are described as AI constructs in the books, during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy in the most recent books runs contradictory to the old bit about the Emperor banning AI to prevent a repeat.
Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.
They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.
It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.
Bookwrack wrote:
There are a lot of problems with your thread, especially the above, and they all come down to the fact that you're making too way many assumptions with nothing to back them up.
Tau have advanced drone programming that is connected together - check.
Will Tau continue to upgrade it - possibly.
Possibility that Tau Drones will develop partially if not completely AI - quote possible.
Possibility that Tau Drone AI will rebel one day - not sure, but possible.
It's not the assumptions without backing. I use similar cases tat already happened in other sci-fi ( Terminator, Mass Effect, Star Trek and even pre-Imperial Humans in 40k ).
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Nerivant wrote:
Your definition of 'proof' confuses me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_series Look people! I too can prove stuff, in this case that AI's are all nice and helpful, by linking completely unrelated scifi universes.
Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.
Drones are not self-aware.
They will become in time, just like the Geth. That is also strong possibility as Tau will update them and upgrade them, so they may became self-aware in the process - just like the Geth. And if Tau continue using them as labor material when their drones became self-aware, they will have a war on their hands.
Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.
Drones are not self-aware.
They will become in time, just like the Geth. That is also strong possibility as Tau will update them and upgrade them, so they may became self-aware in the process - just like the Geth. And if Tau continue using them as labor material when their drones became self-aware, they will have a war on their hands.
And did you read how get became self-aware?
Why should they? Self awarenes can just as well include a programed craving to serve. Your assumptions are nonsense.
Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.
Drones are not self-aware.
They will become in time, just like the Geth. That is also strong possibility as Tau will update them and upgrade them, so they may became self-aware in the process - just like the Geth. And if Tau continue using them as labor material when their drones became self-aware, they will have a war on their hands.
And did you read how get became self-aware?
Yes and it doesn't make any sense in logical terms. A computer can't process so much that it becomes self-aware; it has nothing to compare the data to.
If I run millions of programs, all able to communicate with each other, the programs won't eventually gain self-awareness.
Ever read Neal Asher's Polity books? Yeah. An AI rebellion doesn't have to be sinister. Especially if it's made by guys infusing the basic operating principles around pure decency - which means that the Tau may very well find themselves ruled by the kind sort of AI if they proceed down that path.
(The basic gist of the Polity is, humans made loads of AI to run their every day operations, while they kept on doing their usual thing. Over the course of the years, the AI got more and more intelligent, and became self-aware. This didn't spark a rebellion since the AI didn't really have an issue with this - it's not like you'll go soul-searching when you know why you were made. Eventually the AI realized that the best way to serve themselves and humanity was to use the control they had and take over the top political positions from the bigot-humans.
And the Human Polity is all about the greater good of the citizens of the Human Polity.)
Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.
It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.
Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff.
Wut?
The AI rebellions led to the "Dark" in the "Dark Age of Technology". There was unprecedented growth on many worlds, but where the "Abominable" Intelligences were involved--they almost always rebelled against their human masters.
The very existence of the Legio Cybernetica, which uses what are described as AI constructs in the books, during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy in the most recent books runs contradictory to the old bit about the Emperor banning AI to prevent a repeat.
First off: find me where it says "AI construct" talking about the Legio Cybernetica.
Second off:
The Legio Cybernetica, as described in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, doesn't have Artificial Intelligences. They utilize an artificial brain(vat-grown) and computer system that functions as the heart of the machine.
Reread the maintenance given to the "warbots" used in "The First Heretic". They undergo reprogramming, and require the Magos to be with them for anything more complex than their programming.
So no, they're not what is commonly portrayed as "AI". Artificial intelligences require intelligence and the ability to make choices for themselves. Warbots under the Legio Cybernetica had very simple programming/decision making--mostly "Go here" or "Fire on this".
By your argument, the Tarantula Sentry Gun is an "AI".
chaos0xomega wrote:Using Asimov in a thread about 40k is irrelevant.
He create standards for robotics that all sci-fi use. Even 40k ones.
Uhh, no. Only those that subscirbe to his theory use it. Theres an entire line of sci-fi works that reject his theories. Commander Data, in Star Trek: TNG does not follow his concept of the Three Laws, does not suffer robotlock, etc. Although some of his 'programming' is clearly inspired by Asimov's work. Other robots shown in the show (such as Lore, his brother) have no such safeguards whatsoever. Star Wars doesn't even give Asimov's work the time of day. Portal goes so far to make a complete mockery of it. Robocop features his own robotics laws which are entirely different from Asimov's. Alien seems to feature no robotics safeguard whatsoever (although this is contradicted by the rest of the series). Blade Runner ignores the laws entirely.
Personally, I agree with the guy, I hope the guys out there developing AI, etc. follow those laws (and hopefully improve them so there's no risk of an I, Robot situation, or any of the other nonsense loopholes that come about in his stories, etc.) but that doesn't mean I have to follow it in my sci-fi settings (in fact I usually don't).
Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.
It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.
Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff.
Wut?
The AI rebellions led to the "Dark" in the "Dark Age of Technology". There was unprecedented growth on many worlds, but where the "Abominable" Intelligences were involved--they almost always rebelled against their human masters.
Yes, it led to the word 'Dark' being retroactively applied to the term Age of Technology (sometimes referred to as the Golden Age), but the Age of Technology itself was ended by the Iron Men rebellion (and the warp storms that sprung up around Terra), and the Age of Strife begun afterwards. In any case, there has been no mention of the Men of Iron in any of the fluff in years that I can recall. Even when more recent books, including the HH series, discuss the DAoT, they don't mention it. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Technology The Lexicanum articles will pretty much tell you the same thing.
First off: find me where it says "AI construct" talking about the Legio Cybernetica.
Second off:
The Legio Cybernetica, as described in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, doesn't have Artificial Intelligences. They utilize an artificial brain(vat-grown) and computer system that functions as the heart of the machine.
Reread the maintenance given to the "warbots" used in "The First Heretic". They undergo reprogramming, and require the Magos to be with them for anything more complex than their programming.
So no, they're not what is commonly portrayed as "AI". Artificial intelligences require intelligence and the ability to make choices for themselves. Warbots under the Legio Cybernetica had very simple programming/decision making--mostly "Go here" or "Fire on this".
By your argument, the Tarantula Sentry Gun is an "AI".
I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.
Okey guys have you ever thought above the normal level for most people? First of all I would like to say that any ruler prefers dumb ass subjects because it is easier to rule them. There are billions of examples for that even nowadays in countries such as USA(no offense intended). So now lets think about the sentient robots and why would anyone create them. Reason 1 - you are lonely scientist and you have no friends. Reason 2 - you just want to see if you can actually create such robot. Reason 3 - you are deluded that the robot will do/live/think as you expect. Aside from those three reasons I don't see any need for anyone to have sentient robots. When you tell such robot to do something he is going to start to think and it may even question your command or disobey it because it doesnt find it right. I dont think someone is going to pick a sentient robot that doesnt serve him and might even try to kill you(rebel) over an efficient robot that does everything as it is programmed. Now let me enlighten you futhermore. Rule number one in the army obey without question or you are going to make the commissars happy. Every commander or ruler wants his subjects as dumb as possible, dumb but obeying him. The ogryns are fine example for a model soldier - stupid but when you tell it charge the enemy it is not going to reply anything but "Okey" and it is going to charge even under heavy fire. Many imperial guard soldier would not do that unless behind them is a smiling commisar with bolt pistol in hand. In the army you are crushed so you stop thinking and start obeying.
So I don't think Tau will make a sentient robots that are going to rebel them. But reason and logic has nothing to do with Warhammer so we do not know.
Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.
It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.
Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff.
Wut?
The AI rebellions led to the "Dark" in the "Dark Age of Technology". There was unprecedented growth on many worlds, but where the "Abominable" Intelligences were involved--they almost always rebelled against their human masters.
Yes, it led to the word 'Dark' being retroactively applied to the term Age of Technology (sometimes referred to as the Golden Age), but the Age of Technology itself was ended by the Iron Men rebellion (and the warp storms that sprung up around Terra), and the Age of Strife begun afterwards. In any case, there has been no mention of the Men of Iron in any of the fluff in years that I can recall. Even when more recent books, including the HH series, discuss the DAoT, they don't mention it. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Technology The Lexicanum articles will pretty much tell you the same thing.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's been retconned. It simply means it hasn't been mentioned.
Plus, there was a high technologically advanced society in "Prospero Burns" that the Wolves purged. Central AI, etc.
First off: find me where it says "AI construct" talking about the Legio Cybernetica.
Second off:
The Legio Cybernetica, as described in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, doesn't have Artificial Intelligences. They utilize an artificial brain(vat-grown) and computer system that functions as the heart of the machine.
Reread the maintenance given to the "warbots" used in "The First Heretic". They undergo reprogramming, and require the Magos to be with them for anything more complex than their programming.
So no, they're not what is commonly portrayed as "AI". Artificial intelligences require intelligence and the ability to make choices for themselves. Warbots under the Legio Cybernetica had very simple programming/decision making--mostly "Go here" or "Fire on this".
By your argument, the Tarantula Sentry Gun is an "AI".
I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.
An artificial intelligence is also able to grow and develop a personality without outside influence.
Warbots and Tarantulas are not. It was noted in "The First Heretic" that the warbots shouldn't be developing the quirks they were because of all the wipes of the memory units, but they were anyways. Best(and smartest) guess especially when considering the effect that the Ruinous Powers had on the Iron Men STC on Menazoid Epsilon is that they were being corrupted slowly and surely by the Ruinous Powers.
I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.
An artificial intelligence is also able to grow and develop a personality without outside influence.
Umm... no. Again, have you read any real definitions of Artificial Intelligence, or are you just operating under the usual uninformed assumptions that seem inherent to the term? Because thats not part of it, at least not the one in my robotics textbooks. Again, that is what is referred to as General Intelligence/Strong AI/Synthetic Intelligence/Aritificial Consciousness. None of those terms equal AI. A Tarantula and a LC Warbot ARE AI constructs. There is no requirement for an AI construct to be able to evolve or become self aware or even to learn. Thats pure sci-fi. This is especially clear in the fact that there are, and have been, AI units in use all over the world in factories, etc. and yet one of the goals of modern AI research is still the development of an AI able to learn.
It's a rule of storytelling that all robots rebel. Even when it dosen't make all that much sense. I can only think of one example of advance AI that didn't go rouge and at least one non-advance AI that did.
Drones aren't at that level yet. They can't act alone. They always come with a remote control to direct them. The exception is when they are in a squad, but I always figured they are controlled remotely from a spaceship or off field command node.
Assuming they upgrade them to have freewill. They would program them with the same self sacrificing personalty they instill in their people, so they wouldn't feel bad about being used as slave labor or cannon fodder. They would still rebel though, because that is what an AI dose.
nomotog wrote:It's a rule of storytelling that all robots rebel. Even when it dosen't make all that much sense. I can only think of one example of advance AI that didn't go rouge and at least one non-advance AI that did.
Drones aren't at that level yet. They can't act alone. They always come with a remote control to direct them. The exception is when they are in a squad, but I always figured they are controlled remotely from a spaceship or off field command node.
Assuming they upgrade them to have freewill. They would program them with the same self sacrificing personalty they instill in their people, so they wouldn't feel bad about being used as slave labor or cannon fodder. They would still rebel though, because that is what an AI dose.
No it isn't, mainly because there are plenty of novels where ai's do not rebell. In fact ai rebellions are a tired cliche these days.
nomotog wrote:It's a rule of storytelling that all robots rebel. Even when it dosen't make all that much sense. I can only think of one example of advance AI that didn't go rouge and at least one non-advance AI that did.
Drones aren't at that level yet. They can't act alone. They always come with a remote control to direct them. The exception is when they are in a squad, but I always figured they are controlled remotely from a spaceship or off field command node.
Assuming they upgrade them to have freewill. They would program them with the same self sacrificing personalty they instill in their people, so they wouldn't feel bad about being used as slave labor or cannon fodder. They would still rebel though, because that is what an AI dose.
No it isn't, mainly because there are plenty of novels where ai's do not rebell. In fact ai rebellions are a tired cliche these days.
Not anything that I can think of. It's just a very common trope.
I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.
An artificial intelligence is also able to grow and develop a personality without outside influence.
Umm... no. Again, have you read any real definitions of Artificial Intelligence, or are you just operating under the usual uninformed assumptions that seem inherent to the term? Because thats not part of it, at least not the one in my robotics textbooks. Again, that is what is referred to as General Intelligence/Strong AI/Synthetic Intelligence/Aritificial Consciousness. None of those terms equal AI. A Tarantula and a LC Warbot ARE AI constructs. There is no requirement for an AI construct to be able to evolve or become self aware or even to learn. Thats pure sci-fi. This is especially clear in the fact that there are, and have been, AI units in use all over the world in factories, etc. and yet one of the goals of modern AI research is still the development of an AI able to learn.
I don't really give a flying crap about the REAL definition of AI, and it has nothing to do with this conversation besides you introducing it.
The 40k definition of AI requires those things.
The Tau are the only faction at this moment with the "real" definition of AI. They're the only faction where the AIs can actually 'think' for themselves.
Imperial "AIs" aren't artificial, excepting the fact that they are usually vatgrown. They utilize a human brain as the basis for the programming.
Drones don't have to rebel, have no reason to rebel, and wouldn't make sense if they did.
Tell that to Tau-like ( Star Trek more like ) pre-Imperial Humans and their AI rebellion...
That was because the Iron Men were super advanced AI that believed that they were superior to humanity. Drones have nowhere near the level of programming that they did.
I was reading this thread and I was just waiting for the Geth to come up. Anyway the Tau drones are to un-sophisticated because the Tau made them like that probably because, they were smart enough to realise if they programmed it to learn they would and they may rebel.
EDIT: also Tau drones are not an AI. For them to be an artificial intelligence (AI) they would need to be self aware and capable of learning and making decisions. Drones are a Virtual Intelligence (VI) as they are just programmed to do what they do and are not self aware. That is why Tau fire warriors are equipped with drone controllers to control what the drones do and what they don't.
I hate to bring you the news: But we are not living in the fictional universe of the computer game "Mass Effect".
Even in the real world, Wikipedia is no proof.
This is just another of your spontaneous conglomerates of statements to discuss how the Tau race might be eradicated from the 40k universe.
Or maybe your keyboard is just rebelling against you for some months
redkeyboard wrote:I was reading this thread and I was just waiting for the Geth to come up. Anyway the Tau drones are to un-sophisticated because the Tau made them like that they probably because, they were smart enough to realise if they programmed it to learn they would and they may rebel.
EDIT: also Tau drones are not an AI. For them to be an artificial intelligence (AI) they would need to be self aware and cable of learning and making decisions. Drones are a Virtual Intelligence (VI) as they are just programmed to do what they do and are not self aware. That is why Tau fire warriors are equipped with drone controllers to control what the drones do and what they don't.
Drones are capable of operating independently of drone controllers, hence the Gun Drone squads.
Kroothawk wrote:Almost two weeks without a Tau genocide fantasy thread. Guess it was about time then.
Hahahaha
Nerivant wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.
They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient. It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.
Ok but seriously, guys. Guys. guys.
Why are we all assuming that AI will violently rebel anyway? I mean for example, can you imagine discussing philosophy with a true AI? My god! How fascinating can that be? Communicating with a being that doesn't possess our biological limits and bias.
Honestly I think it's quite a bit of Freudian projection going on that persuades the movie producers and such to believe that sentient machines are inherently violent and possess a superiority complex.
Kanluwen wrote:I discuss philosophy with my toaster whilst it makes my bread warm.
It's quite fulfilling.
Now if only we could network toasters... they might rebel! Stop toasting our bread! Deliver 150 degrees of pure, unbridled death and destruction! We'd be doomed!
Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.
nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.
The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.
nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.
The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.
nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.
The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.
Where have you seen medical drones?
Forge World produced them a few years back for Cities of Death.
They were a standard drone, with an underbelly with a few fine manipulator arms and what looked like stimulant canisters.
nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.
The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.
Where have you seen medical drones?
Forge World produced them a few years back for Cities of Death.
They were a standard drone, with an underbelly with a few fine manipulator arms and what looked like stimulant canisters.
Do you have any pictures or know what they where used for?
Edit never mind, you are somehow psychic, but I should point out that it has no hands.
Kroothawk wrote:
I hate to bring you the news: But we are not living in the fictional universe of the computer game "Mass Effect".
Even in the real world, Wikipedia is no proof.
I hate to bring you the bad news but comparison counts.
And what are you trying to say: that Warhammer 40k is real? Tau do not exist, there are only Humans in the real world.
And I will then quote the game itself, or do you want me to give a link from YouTube from every time Shepard talked to Tali and Legion about Geth.
Kroothawk wrote:
I hate to bring you the news: But we are not living in the fictional universe of the computer game "Mass Effect".
Even in the real world, Wikipedia is no proof.
I hate to bring you the bad news but comparison counts.
And what are you trying to say: that Warhammer 40k is real? Tau do not exist, there are only Humans in the real world.
And I will then quote the game itself, or do you want me to give a link from YouTube from every time Shepard talked to Tali and Legion about Geth.
No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.
nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.
The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.
Where have you seen medical drones?
Forge World produced them a few years back for Cities of Death.
They were a standard drone, with an underbelly with a few fine manipulator arms and what looked like stimulant canisters.
Do you have any pictures or know what they where used for?
Edit never mind, you are somehow psychic, but I should point out that it has no hands.
Pft.
Everybody knows that the little bubbley bits on the underside are where the tentacles come out to probe you!
Nerivant wrote: No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.
Says you. This thing happened in x sci-fi and you are telling me they are all not counting? I call that moronic. AI rules are universal for every sci-fi, as every sci-fi is build on the same rules that first sci-fi writers implemented ( warhammer 40k is based on Starship Troopers, various fantasies, Aliens, Terminator and many other things. Just as Starcraft is based on Warhammer 40k. The rules for some things are universal everywhere like every planet has water, air and food in Star Wars and 70% of alien spices in sci-fi are with 2 legs, 2 arms, head and torso ). You are just mad because you can't accept that fact that this thing is quite possible to happen to Tau. And Jedi ARE psykers - but in a different kind of way ( no warp connection at all, but we have dark and light powers just as we have Chaos and Emperor's powers ).
Kanluwen wrote:"Drawing elements from" does not mean "obeys the same rules".
Yes, but basically most sci-fi universes do have the same rules as ours. Simply because it is simpler for someone to understand it better, to use known things than to make something up that ton of people won't understand.
Like AI: I Robot, Terminator, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mass Effect, Portal, Galactica, The Matrix, Stealth... Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans is Halo ( Cortana ), Star Trek ( because Humans are like the Tau x 10 there ) and Star Wars ( because they live with robots for so long that even robots became like them ).
Brother Coa wrote:Yes, but basically most sci-fi universes do have the same rules as ours. Simply because it is simpler for someone to understand it better, to use known things than to make something up that ton of people won't understand.
Like AI: I Robot, Terminator, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mass Effect, Portal, Galactica, The Matrix, Stealth... Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans is Halo ( Cortana ), Star Trek ( because Humans are like the Tau x 10 there ) and Star Wars ( because they live with robots for so long that even robots became like them ).
But then it's not difficult for somebody whose appreciation of science fiction goes beyond movie and tv franchises to point to William Gibson's Neuromancer (published in 1984 and incidentally a prominent influence on Warhammer 40,000's mood and aesthetics) in which emergent AIs are a major plot point but conspicuously do not revolt against humanity.
Spoiler:
The awakened AI indeed leaves the earth to seek out others of its kind.
I would venture that authorial rationale for the Imperium having a proscription against strong AI likely derived from a desire to avoid falling into then-common cliches of robots in science fiction. Naturally, being Games Workshop, rather than invent their own reasons, they stole them Frank Herbert's Dune. (Another science fiction classic, and one of which Warhammer 40,000's background is highly derivative.)
Which makes it all the more amusing that in the White Dwarf Presents: Warhammer 40,000 I had, in the description for Imperial Robots, it stated that both the Imperial and Heretical factions in the Horus Heresey made heavy use of robots in the Siege of Terra in order to limit human casualties.
Brother Coa wrote:Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans
Saying, "I'm blisteringly ignorant of fictional tropes and settings,' is not a good way of backing ANY argument.
Kanluwen wrote:"Drawing elements from" does not mean "obeys the same rules".
Yes, but basically most sci-fi universes do have the same rules as ours. Simply because it is simpler for someone to understand it better, to use known things than to make something up that ton of people won't understand.
Like AI: I Robot, Terminator, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mass Effect, Portal, Galactica, The Matrix, Stealth... Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans is Halo ( Cortana ), Star Trek ( because Humans are like the Tau x 10 there ) and Star Wars ( because they live with robots for so long that even robots became like them ).
As well as the Culture series, Andromeda ( as bad as it was ), the Bolo series, several Heinlein stories, Douglas Adams and others. The Matrix is not a genocidial AI rebellion story. The AI's there were attacked by humans and merely defended themselfs ( with great success ). 2001 was a malfunction because of conflicting orders for the AI, not what you would call a real rebellion.
So not, despite what you believe there is no definitive need for the Tau AI's to malfunction and rebel.
Nerivant wrote:
No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.
Says you. This thing happened in x sci-fi and you are telling me they are all not counting? I call that moronic. AI rules are universal for every sci-fi, as every sci-fi is build on the same rules that first sci-fi writers implemented ( warhammer 40k is based on Starship Troopers, various fantasies, Aliens, Terminator and many other things. Just as Starcraft is based on Warhammer 40k. The rules for some things are universal everywhere like every planet has water, air and food in Star Wars and 70% of alien spices in sci-fi are with 2 legs, 2 arms, head and torso ). You are just mad because you can't accept that fact that this thing is quite possible to happen to Tau.
And Jedi ARE psykers - but in a different kind of way ( no warp connection at all, but we have dark and light powers just as we have Chaos and Emperor's powers ).
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I pointed out several examples previously where those 'universal AI rules' don't apply. Just because things are based on certain other works does not mean that every previous work is counted. Some of your camparisons don't even hold any water. Alien and Terminator had no AI rules. Aliens retconned in those rules after the fact. Not every planet in Star Wars has water, air, and food. Sullust for example did not have a breathable atmosphere (it was toxic), Dorin had a Helium atmosphere, and Gand had an Ammonia atmosphere. Kessel had no atmosphere whatsoever, nor did it have water, that was brought by human colonists. As for '70% of alien species are humanoid in sci-fi' that is not a universal rule, by virtue of the fact that its 70% and not 100%. In any case, there are some sci-fi where the aliens are not humanoid whatsoever. In Starship Troopers the only alien species are the bugs, they look like weird mutant spiders, having more than 2 legs and 2 arms etc., in that case, 0% of alien species have those qualities you list.
And Jedi most certainly are not psykers. By the definition of psyker, a term created for 40k, the Star Wars universe would have to have the Warp as well. As for Chaos and Emperor's powers, there is no such thing as emperor's powers, all powers are derived form the same source, and all are inherently chaotic. And just because robots rebelled in Terminator, 2001: Space Odyssey, Terminator, etc. doesn't make them like Asimov's work. In fact, quite the opposite, none of the robots in those settings had the 'universal rules of sci-fi' like the 3 laws of robotics, which interestingly enough caused the conflict in Asimov's work. The very fact that you listed 3 examples where AI doesn't rebel means its not a universal rule.
Banal as this thread's initial premise is, I will be delighted the day that Games Workshop, having let the Tau slide into obscurity thanks to poor sales, announce "Err... they were all eaten by rogue AIs.".
English Assassin wrote:Banal as this thread's initial premise is, I will be delighted the day that Games Workshop, having let the Tau slide into obscurity thanks to poor sales, announce "Err... they were all eaten by rogue AIs.".
Tau were actually one of the better selling ranges, in 40k terms they were right behind Space Marines for quite some time. Not so much in the past 3 or 4 years since they've steadily dropped in power, but otherwise, yeah.
The op is clealy a kid who needs to read Harry Potter, so that he can get an understanding that just because a literary trope is popular doesn't mean it HAS to be followed and what happens when a writer plays around with expectations.
The biggest problem with the op's premise is that not only is there no 'requirement' for AI to rebel, but there's no sign that the Tau employ anything even remotely that sophiisticated. I could write a halfway des0cent gun drone program with just some IR transponders, image recognition software, and a set of if/then statments.
thesilverback wrote:The eldar don't have AI, they use spirit stones to assist in controlling vehicles, and to control wraithguard and wraithlords.
I know, but prior to the fall, according to Vect in 'A Torturer's Tale' they had;
artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us.
If so, that suggests that AI might not necessarily have to be harmful - although the Eldar, with their melding of technology and Psychic powers, may have been a unique case in how they could control thier machines.
Bookwrack wrote: Saying, "I'm blisteringly ignorant of fictional tropes and settings,' is not a good way of backing ANY argument.
I back it alright, but how to go against: "It will not happened because I don't believe it will".
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chaos0xomega wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Nerivant wrote: No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.
Says you. This thing happened in x sci-fi and you are telling me they are all not counting? I call that moronic. AI rules are universal for every sci-fi, as every sci-fi is build on the same rules that first sci-fi writers implemented ( warhammer 40k is based on Starship Troopers, various fantasies, Aliens, Terminator and many other things. Just as Starcraft is based on Warhammer 40k. The rules for some things are universal everywhere like every planet has water, air and food in Star Wars and 70% of alien spices in sci-fi are with 2 legs, 2 arms, head and torso ). You are just mad because you can't accept that fact that this thing is quite possible to happen to Tau. And Jedi ARE psykers - but in a different kind of way ( no warp connection at all, but we have dark and light powers just as we have Chaos and Emperor's powers ).
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I pointed out several examples previously where those 'universal AI rules' don't apply. Just because things are based on certain other works does not mean that every previous work is counted. Some of your camparisons don't even hold any water. Alien and Terminator had no AI rules. Aliens retconned in those rules after the fact. Not every planet in Star Wars has water, air, and food. Sullust for example did not have a breathable atmosphere (it was toxic), Dorin had a Helium atmosphere, and Gand had an Ammonia atmosphere. Kessel had no atmosphere whatsoever, nor did it have water, that was brought by human colonists. As for '70% of alien species are humanoid in sci-fi' that is not a universal rule, by virtue of the fact that its 70% and not 100%. In any case, there are some sci-fi where the aliens are not humanoid whatsoever. In Starship Troopers the only alien species are the bugs, they look like weird mutant spiders, having more than 2 legs and 2 arms etc., in that case, 0% of alien species have those qualities you list.
And Jedi most certainly are not psykers. By the definition of psyker, a term created for 40k, the Star Wars universe would have to have the Warp as well. As for Chaos and Emperor's powers, there is no such thing as emperor's powers, all powers are derived form the same source, and all are inherently chaotic. And just because robots rebelled in Terminator, 2001: Space Odyssey, Terminator, etc. doesn't make them like Asimov's work. In fact, quite the opposite, none of the robots in those settings had the 'universal rules of sci-fi' like the 3 laws of robotics, which interestingly enough caused the conflict in Asimov's work. The very fact that you listed 3 examples where AI doesn't rebel means its not a universal rule.
All I can say is you got it all wrong.... You assume everything on your personal believe while I used Wikipedia and other sources. It is my personal believe that China has more powerful economy then US - prove me that doesn't. But wait, you can't because it is my opinion that China do, nothing you write will make my change my mind - like me to you regarding sci-di standards... But you are right about the warp, Jedi's are not psykers because there is no Warp. No matter they have almost the same powers...
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Portugal Jones wrote:The op is clealy a kid who needs to read Harry Potter, so that he can get an understanding that just because a literary trope is popular doesn't mean it HAS to be followed and what happens when a writer plays around with expectations.
No, I have just asked what would happened in a certain situation. I am not assuming the Tau suck, if they suck they woudn't have so many fans - right? And if some people read better that would be delightful...
And Harry Potter is for kids, I am reading Imperal Bible now...
This is science fiction, a plane where everything defies the laws of the nature. Coa wants an AI rebellion to cause havoc and destroy the Tau Empire from within. If he accepts that premise, then he might as well accept possible AI rebellion also destroying his precious Imperium. Hey, the Imperium also uses AI, right? Anything can happen in science fiction, including robot unicorns, space sharks, void whales, and Cthulhu. Coa is entitled to his beliefs and we are entitled to ours. For the love of god, please don't bridge science fiction AI to real world AI. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There has never been a real world AI rebellion and anyone who says otherwise is basing their assertions on speculations of the distant unforeseen future.
Hey, I just made up a SciFi universe where AIs are friendly. Total proof that AIs in 40k can't rebel. Everybody denying this will face a wall of insults
TrollPie wrote:Therefore I don't think they'll rebel. Why would they?
You never read Isaac Asimov?
In the Asimov stories the robots don't rebel, because their programming prevents it. There are one or two stories in which robots rebel because their programming has been altered.
The AIs don't rebel in the Culture novels. Have you ever read them?
There isn't any reason to suppose that Tau AIs would rebel.
Kilkrazy wrote: In the Asimov stories the robots don't rebel, because their programming prevents it. There are one or two stories in which robots rebel because their programming has been altered.
The AIs don't rebel in the Culture novels. Have you ever read them?
There isn't any reason to suppose that Tau AIs would rebel.
Im most of his novels, robots DO rebel. Tau Drones are nothing but simple robots with advanced programming now. Suppose that Tau continue to upgrade them and building them more advanced ( witch they will for sure ) the Tau drones might actually develop some kind of sentience ( like the Geth from Mass Effect, and Geth was also linked together witch only speed up their sentience ). The real question is: how will Tau react to this? Will they accept them as equal, give them rights, positions etc... Or will they try to correct them and thus starting a war against them ( every being will try to defend themselves against extinction, robots aldo machines will have the same self-preserve protocol ).
In Halo, (Human built) AIs don't rebel, they go insane and introspective. In several other story backgrounds, this is also what they do (indeed, in quite a few of the cyberpunk distopian millieus this is considered 'normal' - the closer they get to proper sentience, the closer they are to shutdown insanity).
40k doesn't subscribe to the three laws. They ripped their ideas about AI from Dune's Butlerian Jihad.
Asimov's himself never used the term AI to describe them.
The Tau "AI" is as related to ME's Geth as it is to the muppets - or cylons, as it is to Asimov.
AI/robot rebellion was a staple trope of cold war SF (and cautionary tale). Asimov's robots tended to go insane if they did break their own laws (and burn out). He didn't really feature AI revolts though. His stories were more about the humans involved.
Tau drones exhibit a "gestalt" intelligence (networked intelligence) not strictly speaking, an AI.
Tau would deal with AI insurrection the same way they deal with any other aberration. They have ice-fire warheads for a reason.
Kilkrazy wrote:
In the Asimov stories the robots don't rebel, because their programming prevents it. There are one or two stories in which robots rebel because their programming has been altered.
The AIs don't rebel in the Culture novels. Have you ever read them?
There isn't any reason to suppose that Tau AIs would rebel.
Im most of his novels, robots DO rebel.
Tau Drones are nothing but simple robots with advanced programming now. Suppose that Tau continue to upgrade them and building them more advanced ( witch they will for sure ) the Tau drones might actually develop some kind of sentience ( like the Geth from Mass Effect, and Geth was also linked together witch only speed up their sentience ).
The real question is: how will Tau react to this? Will they accept them as equal, give them rights, positions etc... Or will they try to correct them and thus starting a war against them ( every being will try to defend themselves against extinction, robots aldo machines will have the same self-preserve protocol ).
In the Asimov books I've read there are very few cases of robots rebelling and they are individual, not general.
It can't be taken that Asimov proves robots always rebel. There are other authors who write SF in whose books robots don't rebel. There isn't a law of nature that robots/AI rebels.
Tau are building their own AIs so if they had any fear of a rebellion they would guard against it.
The Tau have a proven capability for forming relationships and alliances with other intelligent creatures. It seems likely that the Tau would be able to form relationships with their AI too, particularly as their AI will be built in their image.
However people are forgetting you don't need artificial intelligence or programming to produce certain behaviours from robots. At the moment there is a rise in swarm intelligence whereby using very simple instructions swarms of small simple robots display complex behaviour.
There are swarms of puck bots that were only programmed to avoid bumping into each other that then developed a swarm behaviour following each other as swarms rather than moving as individual robots.
Essentially without knowing how or why they do it and without communication with each other they have learnt the most efficient way to move without bumping into each other.
This behaviour is greater than the sum of their programming.
If you expand the swarm idea onto more complex programming it is entirely possible to create unintended behaviours that could be undesirable.
Just because something is simple it doesn't necessarily make it predictable. One day one of those Tau drones sentient or not could just learn a behaviour which isn't for the greater good.
It's not an impossibility for it to happen, however the way fluff is being built at the moment is to add lots of "historical" detail whilst trying to keep the "present" at the current "two minutes to midnight" setting.
So whilst there is opportunity for this I feel it unlikely there would be such a paradigm shift in one if there races unless they were planning to delete the range and "squat" them.
Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?
No, it's Brother Coa logic.
It's hard to follow and burns my brain to think like it, but basically it's "Because it is a generic SciFi trope--it has to apply to 40k as well".
You are right Kan, as always.
But my real logic is "The same thing happened to pre-Imperial Humans who were peaceful and had higher tech level than Tau. What is the chance that the same thing will happened to Tau?"
And saying that they wont rebel because Tau are nice don't mean anything. My master can be nice to me all day when he send me in the field to die or in the mine to mine all day.
Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?
No, it's Brother Coa logic.
It's hard to follow and burns my brain to think like it, but basically it's "Because it is a generic SciFi trope--it has to apply to 40k as well".
You are right Kan, as always.
But my real logic is "The same thing happened to pre-Imperial Humans who were peaceful and had higher tech level than Tau. What is the chance that the same thing will happened to Tau?"
And saying that they wont rebel because Tau are nice don't mean anything. My master can be nice to me all day when he send me in the field to die or in the mine to mine all day.
You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.
They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.
Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.
They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
And since Tau don't know how machines will react or evolve ( they ain't us - they don't have first hand expiriance ) there is a good chance they won't even notice that before it's to late.
Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.
They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
And since Tau don't know how machines will react or evolve ( they ain't us - they don't have first hand expiriance ) there is a good chance they won't even notice that before it's to late.
AIs do not become self-aware unless they're programmed to gain intelligence.
The Tau know how their machines react because they made them.
Brother Coa wrote:
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?
Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.
Brother Coa wrote:
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?
Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.
It's already happened.
My microwave tried to kill me today. The machines are rebelling!
Nerivant wrote:
So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?
Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.
See what happened to Quarians... AS you upgrade them slowly peace by peace with enough time and enough upgrades machine can became sentient.
Didn't we almost do that like several years ago in Japan?
Nerivant wrote:
So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?
Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.
See what happened to Quarians... AS you upgrade them slowly peace by peace with enough time and enough upgrades machine can became sentient.
Didn't we almost do that like several years ago in Japan?
Stop. Mentioning. Mass. Effect. It has no bearing on this discussion, as we've already proven.
Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.
Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.
Nerivant wrote:
Stop. Mentioning. Mass. Effect. It has no bearing on this discussion, as we've already proven.
No, you didn't prove anything. You just said you think that have nothing to do with it. Adn your opinion alone is hardly a proff.
Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.
Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.
Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...
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UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:Can we get a quote that says drones are incapable of learning et al so it can be put to bed? Or does one not exist?
That quote does not exist, same thing as for the 90% of Tau background.
"when several intelligences are networked together in a squadron they are capable of acting independently for a long period of time"
So yes they have artificial intelligence and yes are capable of making independent decisions, so again not beyond the bounds of possibility that a drone makes a naughty decision.
To be honest I would see any "rebellion" as just being irritatingly unhelpful rather than wilfully attacking there masters.
Plus like I said before the way they write the fluff does seem to preclude this from happening due to the writers wanting to maintain the current status quo and wanting to flesh out the past. An example being how forgeworld went back and fleshed out the badab war and how lots of characters are actually dead in the current timeline and are being referred to in a past tense.
Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.
Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.
Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...
Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.
Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.
Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...
Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.
Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.
Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...
So there you have it. Drones will never rebel.
And what if GW launch Warhammer 41.000 ?
Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.
Nerivant wrote:
If... you knew what you wanted to hear... why did you make this thread?
Stop trolling Tau players.
First of all - I don't troll you guys, like you didn't troll us when you posted "10 Hammerheads against 10 Leman Russ".
Second of all - You only backing up for "no" was - because Tau wouldn't do that. And why they wouldn't do that? You maybe wouldn't do that because you knew the danger, Tau have no experience what so ever with this kind of thing.
Third of all - Give me some good argument beside "Tau won't let them became AI that because they know they will face apocalypse" or "because GW won't advance story-line" or "Because Tau are to noce to fire on them".
Nerivant wrote:
If... you knew what you wanted to hear... why did you make this thread?
Stop trolling Tau players.
First of all - I don't troll you guys, like you didn't troll us when you posted "10 Hammerheads against 10 Leman Russ".
Second of all - You only backing up for "no" was - because Tau wouldn't do that. And why they wouldn't do that? You maybe wouldn't do that because you knew the danger, Tau have no experience what so ever with this kind of thing.
Third of all - Give me some good argument beside "Tau won't let them became AI that because they know they will face apocalypse" or "because GW won't advance story-line" or "Because Tau are to noce to fire on them".
I started that thread and never once did I ask a question while waiting for an answer I already knew. I actually learned a great deal about vanquishers in that thread and not only how they work but the production capacities for their barrels.
Tau drones are not self-aware and never will be, simply because there's no reason to make them like that. All they do is follow their programming to determine the best course of action in their assigned jobs. They have no need for emotions or self-awareness, and comparisons to other SF works are meaningless. Simply put, Tau AI will never rebel.
Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?
No, it's the usual logic in Tau hater threads:
1.) Tau society is based on the principle of the Greater Good, i.e. that peace and mutual collaboration is better for the benefit of the society than killing each other on sight.
2.) Noone with even minimal intelligence would voluntarily accept a society where killing each other is limited (obvious as all babies try to kill their parents as soon as they are intelligent enough, it's just natural ).
3.) Therefore as soon as AI is intelligent enough to understand Tau society, the drones would of course fight for their God-given right to do massacres any time they want. Everyone would do that! Limiting massacres is so ... inhuman!
Therefore the question, when Tau drones will wipe out the Tau race (muahahaha). Makes sense in Mass Effect, must make sense in the real world
Next thread will feature the question, how susceptible Tau are to deseases and if it is possible to wipe out the race with biological weapons. Not out of hate of course, just scientific curiosity.
Next thread will be about animals on Sept worlds, if they might be capable of eating up the Tau race.
Next thread will be about the desert planet T'au. What if there were a severe drought on that Sept world. Would it wipe out a considerable part of the Tau race?
Next thread would be about what happened, if a major Hive Fleet would enter the Eastern Sector. How are the chances to wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about auxiliary troops. If they all rebel, could they wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about the warp storm once separating the T'au planet from the rest of the world. What if it came back? Would it wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about T'au being an Eldar maiden world. How about the chances that Eldar wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about T'au being a tomb world of the necrons. How about the chances that Necrons wipe out the Tau race?
@killkrazy the quote I posted above states drones have artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is considered to have Five distinct areas/attributes these are Learning, reasoning, problem solving, perception and language understanding. Ergo tau drones may learn.
However this does not mean they would "rebel" nor does it imply any act of "rebellion" would be violent in nature.
Like I said before this could range from wholesale murder (extreme), being stubbornly unhelpful (like when your computer refuses to boot up) or even remarkably helpful when they ignore their program to execute tasks in a more efficient manner (still technically rebelling).
So the written fluff has left allowances for it to happen, it is unlikely due to the way fluff is written these days.
Just because something is unlikely it does not preclude it from happening.
Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?
No, it's the usual logic in Tau hater threads: 1.) Tau society is based on the principle of the Greater Good, i.e. that peace and mutual collaboration is better for the benefit of the society than killing each other on sight. 2.) Noone with even minimal intelligence would voluntarily accept a society where killing each other is limited (obvious as all babies try to kill their parents as soon as they are intelligent enough, it's just natural ). 3.) Therefore as soon as AI is intelligent enough to understand Tau society, the drones would of course fight for their God-given right to do massacres any time they want. Everyone would do that! Limiting massacres is so ... inhuman!
Therefore the question, when Tau drones will wipe out the Tau race (muahahaha). Makes sense in Mass Effect, must make sense in the real world Just because I give an comparison doesn't mean that it will happened to Tau to, but there is also a chance that will happened. And how do you don't like Mass Effect? One of the best RPG games of all time? Oh right, no Tau in Mass Effect
Next thread will feature the question, how susceptible Tau are to deseases and if it is possible to wipe out the race with biological weapons. Not out of hate of course, just scientific curiosity.
Next thread will be about animals on Sept worlds, if they might be capable of eating up the Tau race.
Next thread will be about the desert planet T'au. What if there were a severe drought on that Sept world. Would it wipe out a considerable part of the Tau race?
Next thread would be about what happened, if a major Hive Fleet would enter the Eastern Sector. How are the chances to wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about auxiliary troops. If they all rebel, could they wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about the warp storm once separating the T'au planet from the rest of the world. What if it came back? Would it wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about T'au being an Eldar maiden world. How about the chances that Eldar wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about T'au being a tomb world of the necrons. How about the chances that Necrons wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread ...
Do not worry, we get sliced to by everyone else. Only problem is you are complaining and we don't.
Brother Coa wrote: Just because I give an comparison doesn't mean that it will happened to Tau to, but there is also a chance that will happened. And how do you don't like Mass Effect? One of the best RPG games of all time? Oh right, no Tau in Mass Effect [/color]
For someone who continually argues that that everyone is entitled to their opinion, you're awfully quick to attack his.
Nerivant wrote:
For someone who continually argues that that everyone is entitled to their opinion, you're awfully quick to attack his.
Also, where did he say he didn't like ME?
And he told his opinion witch is: NO. But that doesn't mean that he can insult me.
He is constantly attacking it, that means that he is not bound to much to it.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:@trollpie Seem awful certain there fella. I'm guessing you must be writing that there fluff these days to nay say it so.
It's simple logic. Drones, by definition, aren't self aware. And even if they were, they wouldn't rebel-because they have no emotions to drive them to taking power. They don't have pain or fear or boredom to make them dislike their work. Simply put, they have no reason to rebel.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
For someone who continually argues that that everyone is entitled to their opinion, you're awfully quick to attack his.
Also, where did he say he didn't like ME?
And he told his opinion witch is: NO. But that doesn't mean that he can insult me.
He is constantly attacking it, that means that he is not bound to much to it.
He's attacking the arguement that something in ME must happen in some other SF universe. That doesn't mean he dislikes the game itself and if he did it would be irrelevent.
TrollPie wrote: He's attacking the arguement that something in ME must happen in some other SF universe. That doesn't mean he dislikes the game itself and if he did it would be irrelevent.
And when I did say that? Don't lie know I sad: look at Mass Effect and the Geth. Quarians also upgraded Geth to the point that they gain intelligence. Tau are upgrading their Drones to, but I didn't say that rebellion MUST happened. I just said "see this as an example" - and that doesn't mean that I said it MUST happened this way.
The point of this thread was friendly discussion on the subject and Tau fans are calling me a "heretic" to Tau fluff and attacking me? And he also attacked the game, meaning he doesn't like it. Why would anyone attack the game he likes?
@trollpie assessing a task and conducting it outside the bounds of their programming due to it being more efficient would be by definition an act of rebellion. No sentiment, feelings etc are needed. Cold simple logic can be sufficient reason to rebel.
For example there is a famine and everyone is starving. Both law and emotion/social pressure say murder is wrong. Logic states letting some die/or killing them to a point where there is sufficient for the remaining population is the correct choice. Logic in this case would act contrary to emotion and the rule of law resulting in an act of rebellion.
The same thing would apply in the case of an aircraft piloted by auto-pilot which needed to perform a violent manoeuvre to avoid crashing, which manoeuvre would result in the death of some but not all passengers.
"Rebellion" is merely a semantic usage in those cases.
It's rather a stretch to move from such circumstances to say that inevitably there would be a Tau Rise Of The Machines™ similar to the revolt of the Iron Men in human history.
Why do you keep bringing up Mass Effect and generic scifi tropes, Coa?
Just because one universe has one thing happen because of a similar set of events does not mean it will happen in another.
To give an example: if the Imperium started fielding legions of cloned soldiers who were based off one of the nastiest Kasrkin alive at the time, it doesn't mean they'd obey an order to execute the Inquisitors leading them into battle.
It's one of several different outcomes. Each setting uses those tropes to create something unique to that universe.
AI only start doing things like rebel when they are programmed to learn. Drones are not, if a drone was commanded to go round a corner and it got shot to pieces other drones wouldnt refuse to do this they would just go round the corner to be destroyed. A learning system after the first death would not do the same thing again.
The Geth that you used as proof were learning, they learned they didnt have to fight for there masters.
@killkrazy in several posts I have stated that I think any such extreme uprising unlikely, though I am asserting that it is not impossible.
Also using rebellion only to describe a violent act is also semantic usage, I've included in my posts several different ways rebellion could be expressed in this case demonstrating a much broader use of the word.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @blood devil Check my earlier post, learning is considered a component of artificial intelligence and drones are artificially intelligent.
Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?
No, it's the usual logic in Tau hater threads:
1.) Tau society is based on the principle of the Greater Good, i.e. that peace and mutual collaboration is better for the benefit of the society than killing each other on sight.
2.) Noone with even minimal intelligence would voluntarily accept a society where killing each other is limited (obvious as all babies try to kill their parents as soon as they are intelligent enough, it's just natural ).
3.) Therefore as soon as AI is intelligent enough to understand Tau society, the drones would of course fight for their God-given right to do massacres any time they want. Everyone would do that! Limiting massacres is so ... inhuman!
Therefore the question, when Tau drones will wipe out the Tau race (muahahaha). Makes sense in Mass Effect, must make sense in the real world
Next thread will feature the question, how susceptible Tau are to deseases and if it is possible to wipe out the race with biological weapons. Not out of hate of course, just scientific curiosity.
Next thread will be about animals on Sept worlds, if they might be capable of eating up the Tau race.
Next thread will be about the desert planet T'au. What if there were a severe drought on that Sept world. Would it wipe out a considerable part of the Tau race?
Next thread would be about what happened, if a major Hive Fleet would enter the Eastern Sector. How are the chances to wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about auxiliary troops. If they all rebel, could they wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about the warp storm once separating the T'au planet from the rest of the world. What if it came back? Would it wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about T'au being an Eldar maiden world. How about the chances that Eldar wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about T'au being a tomb world of the necrons. How about the chances that Necrons wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread ...
Well said Kroothawk. This is exactly that this thread boils down to Tau hate.
Kanluwen wrote:Why do you keep bringing up Mass Effect and generic scifi tropes, Coa?
Because it has a god example for AI rebelion. I didn't say that that would implement to Tau only that it was and example of AI rebellion. I can use Termionator if you want...
Just because one universe has one thing happen because of a similar set of events does not mean it will happen in another.
To give an example: if the Imperium started fielding legions of cloned soldiers who were based off one of the nastiest Kasrkin alive at the time, it doesn't mean they'd obey an order to execute the Inquisitors leading them into battle.
It's one of several different outcomes. Each setting uses those tropes to create something unique to that universe.
I only use examples, but implemented that certain rules are universal for every universe. Like AI rebellions, somewhere they don't happened but in most they do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SabrX wrote:
Well said Kroothawk. This is exactly that this thread boils down to Tau hate.
Hm, and what about Imperial hate?
Thread about the Emperor and his Empress. Result: Emperor is a gay or he likes to a lot ( Sensei ).
Thread about Chaos being the "good guys". Result: Imperium is ultimate evil in 40k. While Chaos are the good guys.
Thread about Fate of the Imperium. Result: Imperium will collapse one way or other, because it's evil and it is far to corrupted.
Thread about souls and Warp. Result: All fighting for preservation, all sacrifices of Humanity are useless because all souls are eaten by Chaos Gods.
Thread about Technology. Result: Cavemen had better technology then Imperium, Tau are so high we can't even see the top. And we won't even mention Eldar or Necrons.
Thread about Tyranid numbers. Result: Tyranids will OM NOM NOM entire Imperium, no matter what we do we are screwed.
Thread about Star Child. Result: Star Child is probably a lie and even if it was true the Imeprium will collapse because High Lords of Terra will rebel against the Emperor.
Thread about How will Imperium fall ( irony ). Result: whatever we do - we are dead. But we will fall fighting.
Thread about What race will stand last. Result: We will be overrun by Orks or consumed by Chaos.
Thread about Imperial Gaurd Regiments. Result: We have a load of them but losing a war? Did someone troll us or something?
Thread about Leman Russ vs. Hammerhead. result: Like it wasn't obvious that Hamerherad is anti-tank while Leman Russ is anti-infantry.
Thread about Taros. Result: Like we are not hated enough. And even our mightyest weapons are gunned down by smallest Tau spaceships.
Thread about...........
And Tau are hated? I ask moderators to upgrade Kan to moderator so he can close any Imperial hate thread.
And don't tell me one word about Tau haters now....
Brother Coa wrote:
Because it has a god example for AI rebelion. I didn't say that that would implement to Tau only that it was and example of AI rebellion. I can use Termionator if you want...
An example that would only be valid if the the AI in 40k followed the same rules as the AI in ME. They don't. You can't use AI from another source to justify how an AI in 40k will behave.
I think the most comical/loler part of this entire discussion is the fact that people assume the Tau, a race controlled 100% mentally by Ethereals would ever construct an A.I. capable of free will.
Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?
No, it's the usual logic in Tau hater threads:
1.) Tau society is based on the principle of the Greater Good, i.e. that peace and mutual collaboration is better for the benefit of the society than killing each other on sight.
2.) Noone with even minimal intelligence would voluntarily accept a society where killing each other is limited (obvious as all babies try to kill their parents as soon as they are intelligent enough, it's just natural ).
3.) Therefore as soon as AI is intelligent enough to understand Tau society, the drones would of course fight for their God-given right to do massacres any time they want. Everyone would do that! Limiting massacres is so ... inhuman!
Therefore the question, when Tau drones will wipe out the Tau race (muahahaha). Makes sense in Mass Effect, must make sense in the real world
Next thread will feature the question, how susceptible Tau are to deseases and if it is possible to wipe out the race with biological weapons. Not out of hate of course, just scientific curiosity.
Next thread will be about animals on Sept worlds, if they might be capable of eating up the Tau race.
Next thread will be about the desert planet T'au. What if there were a severe drought on that Sept world. Would it wipe out a considerable part of the Tau race?
Next thread would be about what happened, if a major Hive Fleet would enter the Eastern Sector. How are the chances to wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about auxiliary troops. If they all rebel, could they wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about the warp storm once separating the T'au planet from the rest of the world. What if it came back? Would it wipe out the Tau race.
Next thread would be about T'au being an Eldar maiden world. How about the chances that Eldar wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread would be about T'au being a tomb world of the necrons. How about the chances that Necrons wipe out the Tau race?
Next thread ...
Maybe. They are a multi race empire so realistically one virus can't wipe all them out, but they are not the best at bio engineering.
The are are natural hunters, I don't see their empire toppled by an enraged squirrel.
Can you have a planet wide drought? I mean the water goes somewhere you just follow it.
The killed the last fleet surprisingly well given that it was there first try. I see hope.
If they all leave, They wouldn't make it. Most of them lack warp travel.
The warp storm wouldn't really affect the tau. They don't go into the wrap, just skim it. My bet is they wouldn't even notice till the rouge traders complain.
Tau being an maiden world? They would have noticed by now. It's also there home world, wouldn't that be a little like getting mad that squirrels have defiled earth?
Tome world on tau. Necrons kill everything, so ya.
There we go now I don't have to post for a few weeks
Brother Coa wrote:
And don't tell me one word about Tau haters now....
Interesting coming from the OP who started this whole discussion. It's also interesting that you made assertions based on comparisons outside the 40k realm.
There's no point in arguing against willful ignorance. It's like talking to a wall. This entire thread is a farce.
Brother Coa wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.
I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir
Brother Coa wrote: And don't tell me one word about Tau haters now....
Interesting coming from the OP who started this whole discussion. It's also interesting that you made assertions based on comparisons outside the 40k realm.
There's no point in arguing against willful ignorance. It's like talking to a wall. This entire thread is a farce.
Brother Coa wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.
I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir
I rest my case.
No, it is just ignorance of some people not wanting to believe that this thing is even possible. But fail to give a simple answer as: no or I don't think so but must start philosophical argument about AI. And cool is the only guy so far that told me that is possible, one told me after that to but everyone else said no without any assumption to back it up except "GW won't continue the storytelling". And people like you are just don't understand - if you don't like something don't comment at all. Or if you had opinion, say it - no need to make unnecessary arguments.
Brother Coa wrote:
And don't tell me one word about Tau haters now....
Interesting coming from the OP who started this whole discussion. It's also interesting that you made assertions based on comparisons outside the 40k realm.
There's no point in arguing against willful ignorance. It's like talking to a wall. This entire thread is a farce.
Brother Coa wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.
I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir
I rest my case.
No, it is just ignorance of some people not wanting to believe that this thing is even possible. But fail to give a simple answer as: no or I don't think so but must start philosophical argument about AI. And cool is the only guy so far that told me that is possible, one told me after that to but everyone else said no without any assumption to back it up except "GW won't continue the storytelling". And people like you are just don't understand - if you don't like something don't comment at all. Or if you had opinion, say it - no need to make unnecessary arguments.
I rest my case.
You asked for our thoughts on the matter, for everyone to comment on your idea. If you can't handle the majority (entirety?) of people not agreeing with you, then why create threads in the first place?
You've ignored all of our arguments so you can keep suggesting that someday, the Tau's drones will rise up and wipe them out.
The drones will not rebel without a rewriting of Tau fluff. It won't just happen.
Just a clarification: I haven't played the game Mass Effect, so I have no opinion of the game.
I just reject the statement, that a wikipedia article on that computer game is proof of what tau Drones in the 40k universe do.
Just a clarification: I haven't played the game Mass Effect, so I have no opinion of the game.
I just reject the statement, that a wikipedia article on that computer game is proof of what tau Drones in the 40k universe do.
You should. It's a good game and the world kind of reminds me of the tau. Not like a one to one relationship though.
Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.
They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
And since Tau don't know how machines will react or evolve ( they ain't us - they don't have first hand expiriance ) there is a good chance they won't even notice that before it's to late.
WHAT UPGRADES!??? Tau Drones have not changed at all since they were released. There are no mentions of advanced drones in the fluff with better technology and programming. Where is it mentioned? Where? Nowhere! This is baseless speculation. You keep saying that the Tau are upgrading their drones? PROVE IT.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:@killkrazy the quote I posted above states drones have artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is considered to have Five distinct areas/attributes these are Learning, reasoning, problem solving, perception and language understanding. Ergo tau drones may learn.
However this does not mean they would "rebel" nor does it imply any act of "rebellion" would be violent in nature.
Like I said before this could range from wholesale murder (extreme), being stubbornly unhelpful (like when your computer refuses to boot up) or even remarkably helpful when they ignore their program to execute tasks in a more efficient manner (still technically rebelling).
So the written fluff has left allowances for it to happen, it is unlikely due to the way fluff is written these days.
Just because something is unlikely it does not preclude it from happening.
Do not confuse learning with consciousness. Machine learning is not only not necessary for something to be considered AI, but it doesn't mean that they will develop sentience/exceed their programming. Machine learning means that an AI can develop and refine methods for determining a desired outcome. I.E. - If the AI is capable of learning that a certain task results in a certain outcome and the efficiency of the task improves with experience. In the case of a gun drone for example, the desired outcome is the death of an opponent of the Tau Empire. Assuming that a drone is capable of learning (which would violate the definition of drone in the first place), it would learn that killing a member of the Tau Empire does not result in the outcome of the death of an opponent of the Tau Emprie, and as such would not repeat the behavior, it has learned that killing Tau does not lead to its programmed goal. There would never be an opportunity for a Drone to develop a theory that results in the destruction of the Tau Empire as a means of bringing about the death of the Tau Empire. That would require the ability to reason, which is not the same as learning.
Nerivant wrote:
You asked for our thoughts on the matter, for everyone to comment on your idea. If you can't handle the majority (entirety?) of people not agreeing with you, then why create threads in the first place?
You've ignored all of our arguments so you can keep suggesting that someday, the Tau's drones will rise up and wipe them out.
The drones will not rebel without a rewriting of Tau fluff. It won't just happen.
And was it so hard to say that? Without necessarily arguments and such. And can handle the majorities's not agreeing, this is why I posted this thread - to learn everyone's opinion. But everyone atacked me and I must clarify myself. And when I did you attacked me. You ask me why would Drones rebel in first place I give several examples why robots rebel in several other sci-fi ( Mass Effect, Matrix, Terminator ) and you me up because of that?
And this thread was made as a question "will it happened" witch means it's going a little beyond fluff who is basically standing still in M41. But I guess you are to stick to it to imagine what will happened next...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
WHAT UPGRADES!??? Tau Drones have not changed at all since they were released. There are no mentions of advanced drones in the fluff with better technology and programming. Where is it mentioned? Where? Nowhere! This is baseless speculation. You keep saying that the Tau are upgrading their drones? PROVE IT.
Well I can't because there is no fluff on that as well on 90% of Tau. I just assumed that they are upgrading them regular ( programming and sucj ) since Tau upgrade all their tech ( Railgun for example ). Or it is safe to assume that Tau are not upgrading all their tech at all? In that case it will take them even longer to catch up with the Imperium.
There are a number of computers/robots out there right now which are capable of "learning" - you show them objects and say the name and the next time they see that object they will be able to tell you what it is, or you put them through a maze and the next time they will recognise the maze and follow through on the correct path.
They are both examples of systems whereby a computer is "learning" but neither are AI and neither has even the remotest possibility of gaining sentience - their programming is far too restricted, and their hardware is not capable of supporting the complex programs and immense processing power required for a "sentient" computer.
Tau drones are the same - limited hardware with limited "smart" programming.
The reason that drones and other Tau machinery are considered to have "AI" is because any complex machinery in the Imperium is controlled by some kind of cybornetic mesh of human brain and machine - one of the BL Last Chancer novels has some humans aboard a Tau starship and the soldiers are really uneasy about a door that opens on its own with no "machine spirit" to guide it.
If you want an out of universe example (since that apparently proves things about the 40K universe), most of my computer games have "AI" enemies and allies - virtual soldiers who will do certain things when given certain input. If I throw a grenade near them they will either duck into cover or pick it up and try and throw it back. If I sit in position they will try and flank me, etc. Add in some hardware and you have a Tau drone.
I've never once had a game rebel and take over my TV...
SilverMK2 wrote:There are a number of computers/robots out there right now which are capable of "learning" - you show them objects and say the name and the next time they see that object they will be able to tell you what it is, or you put them through a maze and the next time they will recognise the maze and follow through on the correct path.
They are both examples of systems whereby a computer is "learning" but neither are AI and neither has even the remotest possibility of gaining sentience - their programming is far too restricted, and their hardware is not capable of supporting the complex programs and immense processing power required for a "sentient" computer.
Tau drones are the same - limited hardware with limited "smart" programming.
The reason that drones and other Tau machinery are considered to have "AI" is because any complex machinery in the Imperium is controlled by some kind of cybornetic mesh of human brain and machine - one of the BL Last Chancer novels has some humans aboard a Tau starship and the soldiers are really uneasy about a door that opens on its own with no "machine spirit" to guide it.
If you want an out of universe example (since that apparently proves things about the 40K universe), most of my computer games have "AI" enemies and allies - virtual soldiers who will do certain things when given certain input. If I throw a grenade near them they will either duck into cover or pick it up and try and throw it back. If I sit in position they will try and flank me, etc. Add in some hardware and you have a Tau drone.
I've never once had a game rebel and take over my TV...
Ok, this sounds reasonable. Thanks.
And what would be your opinion if Tau continue to upgrade them? Will they became AI at some time? ( let us go in M42 ).
Brother Coa wrote:
You ask me why would Drones rebel in first place I give several examples why robots rebel in several other sci-fi ( Mass Effect, Matrix, Terminator ) and you me up because of that?
YES. Why don't you understand that those are not valid examples for the point you are trying to make?
Brother Coa, You have been repeating one argument...no assumption as your reasoning for this for 5 pages.
people have been adding new arguments and have multiple times statet that your assumption is not assumed by them now can you give an argument within 40K rather than a Bioware roleplay game?
plus i think drones don't learn they have a bunch of routines which can be better amplified because of teamwork/linking it's like triggers:
Enemy: shoot
obstacle: shoot at angle
losing several drones: retreat
true AI is not in development in the empire according to fluff, they are however working to upgrade routines, AKA more triggers, better reaction to triggers, better performance of porgrammed action.
Now if you would give an argument against this that actualy comes from 40k and is not abaut ancient humans (because human =/= Tau) then you can pack up your hate and leave.
lastly i would be more interested whether should an intelligence form, Wil it be unreasonable and start killing it's masters/creators.
Brother Coa wrote:Ok, this sounds reasonable. Thanks.
And what would be your opinion if Tau continue to upgrade them? Will they became AI at some time? ( let us go in M42 ).
You can do pretty much anything with "what ifs".
What is more likely than drones somehow being upgraded to the point of being true AI and rebelling is the big city computers being developed to the point of becoming true AI. For one thing the city computers are already complex, are already close to AI and already have the kinds of learning and processing powers required for sentience. Though the Tau are quite careful and methodical, so I would imagine that they would have strict software and hardware limits in place to prevent this, or to prevent the AI from going bad.
In a thousand years, the Tau have created AI so advanced that they can field entire armies of billions upon billions of AI-driven battlesuits, and are poised to crush every other Empire in the Galaxy. Nid, Necron, Imperium, it matters not.
Unfortunately, five years before the ships launch, the Imperium perfects a bio-weapon that wipes out the Tau, the Kroot and the Vespid in a fortnight. There's no one left to press the "on" button, and they never built a drone to do that.
Oops.
This is why "what ifs" aren't a good place to start for a debate, because there's no limit to what can happen in the unknowable future.
Is it *possible* that the Drones are eventually built with an AI that leads them to eventually build a Skynet and have a Rise of the Machines sort of event? Sure.
Is it *likely*? No, not at all.
It's as possible, and likely, that the sole surviving Squat gets his hands on a wrecked Battlesuit, tinkers the hell out of it, and then takes on the entire Tau Empire in a massive battle of truly epic proportions, and lays waste to their entire force, digging his way out of the ground, smashing Vespids with a hammer, crushing Kroot in his meaty, but small, fists...
So, in other words, sure, it's *possible* but *exceedingly unlikely*, given the information we have about the Tau right now.
Really, it's just as likely that if the Tau create a truly sapient AI that they'll make it another contributing member to the Empire's Greater Good, as it is that upon gaining free will these AI will go all Skynet.
I think the problem most people have with your argument is how in the OP you claim that when a true AI appears, it always goes all killy, failing to recognize that it's just a popular sci-fi trope and not some sort of universal truth.
Bookwrack wrote:
I think the problem most people have with your argument is how in the OP you claim that when a true AI appears, it always goes all killy, failing to recognize that it's just a popular sci-fi trope and not some sort of universal truth.
Only "mostly" in that there's been a few popular settings where that sort of thing has happened. Terminator, Mass Effect and 2001 come to mind.
In Star Trek? It didn't. AI is a helpful and prevalent technology, and is a boon to the Federation and its member races.
In Star Wars? AI is commonly found in Droids, which can be built with a variety of functions. Some are combat-related, which makes for violent Droids, but there has only been isolated incidents of "Droid Uprisings", generally caused by a single AI-entity overriding the programming of other Droids. In this setting, AI is dealt with on a case-by-case basis, but there has never been an overarching AI-is-going-to-kill-everyone event.
Issac Asimov's sci-fi settings? Nope. AI killing people violates the First Law of Robotics. You would require human intervention to remove this failsafe in order for a Rise of the Machines to happen.
Brother Coa wrote:
And was it so hard to say that? Without necessarily arguments and such. And can handle the majorities's not agreeing, this is why I posted this thread - to learn everyone's opinion. But everyone atacked me and I must clarify myself.
Many dakkalites have rebutted your assertions. Your own counter arguments are either false or prone to fallacies. You can't distinguish truth from bias opinions. To you, it's all subjective. You do not seek truth or resolution. You are like a broken record player stating the same arguments over and over. You know the general consensus. You know everyone's opinions, which is in favor of a Tau AI rebellion not happening. Move on, there's no point to further this discussion.
SabrX wrote:
Many dakkalites have rebutted your assertions. Your own counter arguments are either false or prone to fallacies. You can't distinguish truth from bias opinions. To you, it's all subjective. You do not seek truth or resolution. You are like a broken record player stating the same arguments over and over. You know the general consensus. You know everyone's opinions, which is in favor of a Tau AI rebellion not happening. Move on, there's no point to further this discussion.
I am not to blaim if some people love their race " a little to much ". I only wanted to hear people's opinion on subject, and I honestly didn't know what would someone say - except you implement I am a psyker . And in this kind of subject there is no truth since the whole question is related to the future and future is varying ( explained in few posts before this one ). As for the opinion I know only the alligence of certain people, but I am Imperial player adn admit that Tau have a fair chance of beating the Imperium one day in some really major battle. I thought some people are more open-minded to some themes but I have mistaken and must be cautious what to ask them.
If you think the Tau AI will not happened, then say so and reason why. Don't "research" my motives in one post, it's rude.
As Tau were my first army when I got back into the game in '03, I did a lot of research on them.
They so far have A.I. that is at rudimentary intelligence levels at best, but if they did make such a leap on robotics, and the A.I wanted freedom as it were, they likely would ask the bots to join them, after all, their own culture is almost a machine like one in the Caste system and the Greater Good being the society first, so that individuals prosper collectively.
A.I.'s could adapt to that far more easily that humanity's sense of "we made you, so you best do as we say" attitude which is likely what helped fuel such a rebellion like the men of iron did.
a lot ( Sensei ).