This happened in a 'Ard Boyz' test game last night. A ten man Assault Terminator Squad w/ Libby, assaults a Dreadknight. Only three Terminators (two TH/SS and one LC) make it into the fight. The Dreadknight kills one, and the others fail to wound, they break. The Terminators flee, and the Dreadknight follows to attempt to walk them off the board. On the Terminators next turn, the Libby casts Gate of Infinity. The plan, to gate to the edge of the table, and force a mishap. 1-2 destroyed (they would have walked off anyway), 3-4 I would place them (next to one of my units so they would remain broken), or 5-6 and be placed in reserves, deep strike next turn, (out in the open, and rally in their next turn). Sounds crazy, but plausible.

End result, the Libby was placed on the edge, but scattered back onto the field with a Stormraven walking them off.

Part two, the second ten man Terminator squad, with Sicarius, had been reduced to six Terminators and Sicarius. They charged a Grand master w/ Psychtroke. Rolled a 6, and four out of the six Terminators failed their (I) and killed four of their own, they also broke.

So, can a broken Libby attempt to gate and force a mishap to enter reserves to rally? It would take four turns (Break, Cast, Roll Reserve, and Rally).

i would have to say no beings they break/run towards the board edge

Nothing prevents psykers from using their abilities while falling back.

its a rough one, they must fall back, that particular ability is done at the beginning of movement? so can he not fall back and use the power

Why not? He simply would use the power and then fall back or vice versa. It's the same as an eldar farseer casting fortune while falling back.

no its not the same, its done at beginning of his movement. when does the break test happen?

I think it's an odd one because the fall back must be made "...instead of moving normally..." and there is no clear definition of normal movement.

That being said, I would think that teleporting (i.e. GoI, VoD, using a Monolith portal) would fall into the 'moving normally' catagory and that the fall back move would be made instead.

That plus the fact that most units fall back 2D6. How can you gate or teleport 2D6" towards the table edge?

I also don't see how a unit that is falling back could mishap and be placed back in reserve.
Each move it makes must be made directly towards its own table edge. How would you come on from your table edge if you must move towards it?

Teleporting is not made instead of moving, unlike shunt for example. You simply can't move after deep striking.

you may want to reread GoI again than

He tried to teleport to the edge, forcing a mishap. So the question is, can a Libby use a MOVEMENT based power, or must he fall back? I think the "Must Fall Back" takes precedence.

Jidmah wrote:Teleporting is not made instead of moving, unlike shunt for example. You simply can't move after deep striking.

Veil of Darkness, page 15 codex Necrons, "A Necron Lord can use a Veil of Darkness at the start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally."

Gate of Infinity, page 57 codex Space Marines, "This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."

Ok, done. "The power is used at the beginning of the librarian's movement phase." The word "instead" does not appear.


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Ray Age wrote:He tried to teleport to the edge, forcing a mishap. So the question is, can a Libby use a MOVEMENT based power, or must he fall back? I think the "Must Fall Back" takes precedence.

IMO teleporting to the edge you're falling back to is perfectly within the intention of the rules. On a hit, the unit would automatically be removed, because it is touching the edge. Note that there are no "movement based power" rules.


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time wizard: Doesn't the necron teleport exclude falling back units anyways?

so he can a)teleport b)move , however if he must fallback that happens instead.

Key thing here is that there are two rules involved. One the mishap for models off the table, but the second is that if a falling back unit contacts the table edge (ie same requirement for mishap), "the entire unit is removed from the game and counts as destroyed" Personally, I'm going to go with option 2.

Since the power is used at the beginning of the movement phase, and you are not disallowed from using Psychic powers when falling back, you can use GoI to deep strike onto the table.

You could use GoI to DS anywhere on the table, and if you are far enough away from enemies, and have ATSKNF you would rally on your next turn.

But wouldn't you have to GoI to your nearest board edge?

goi is not a psa, so they really cant be compared. the unit must fall back, goi replaces normal movement with deepstriking, however the unit cant move as normal and must fall back

Ray Age wrote:But wouldn't you have to GoI to your nearest board edge?

IMO, yes. Changing your mode of 'movement' does not alter the requirement that the movement be towards your own board edge.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:the unit must fall back, goi replaces normal movement with deepstriking, however the unit cant move as normal and must fall back

None of this is a rule.

GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase. For that matter falling back is no different that the rage USR.

And if you used GOI instead of Rage, my answer would be the same. The mode of movement does not change the required direction of that movement.

Jidmah wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:the unit must fall back, goi replaces normal movement with deepstriking, however the unit cant move as normal and must fall back

None of this is a rule.

GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase. For that matter falling back is no different that the rage USR.

pretty sure that the unit must fall back ^^

GoI happens at the beginning of the librarians movement. not the beginning of the movement phase eh?

you can't move the libby than use GoI

so some of them are rules

Jidmah wrote:GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase.

Jidmah is absolutely correct.

GoI is used at the beginning of the movement phase.

you Gate where you want.

you then "Must" fall back.

you find that you "Can not" move further that movement phase because you count as deep striking.

Can not trumps must.

They then regroup because of P.46 "a unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move." as long as they are within the restrictions (Within coherency, half str or better, no enemies within 6") or they are below half and have ATSKNF

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase.

Jidmah is absolutely correct.

GoI is used at the beginning of the movement phase.

you Gate where you want.

you then "Must" fall back.

you find that you "Can not" move further that movement phase because you count as deep striking.

Can not trumps must.

They then regroup because of P.46 "a unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move." as long as they are within the restrictions (Within coherency, half str or better, no enemies within 6") or they are below half and have ATSKNF

But how can a may trump a must?

You must fall back WHEN you move. BEFORE you move you use Gate.

You can place anywhere on the board, and attempt to rally

nosferatu1001 wrote:You must fall back WHEN you move. BEFORE you move you use Gate.

You can place anywhere on the board, and attempt to rally

So if I don't move I don't fall back?

I'm at work ... hardly working but my rule book is at the house. walk me through this as it sounds wrong in my head.

Jidmah wrote:

Ray Age wrote:He tried to teleport to the edge, forcing a mishap. So the question is, can a Libby use a MOVEMENT based power, or must he fall back? I think the "Must Fall Back" takes precedence.

IMO teleporting to the edge you're falling back to is perfectly within the intention of the rules. On a hit, the unit would automatically be removed, because it is touching the edge. Note that there are no "movement based power" rules.


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time wizard: Doesn't the necron teleport exclude falling back units anyways?

Sorry so long to respond, was away from the computer. There is nothing in the VoD rule that specifically excludes using it when falling back.
The exclusion is in the Fall Back! section of the main rule.

A unit that is falling back, in subsequent Movement phases will make a fall back move instead of moving normally.
What is a "fall back move"?
It is moving 2D6" directly towards your table edge by the shortest route ignoring difficult terrain but taking dangerous terrain tests as normal.

So that's the only move you are allowed to make (unless you regroup).
The rules don't say you can teleport, phase away, use a psychic power to move or anything like that.
They tell you what the fall back move is.
To take any other action is not making a fall back move.

Done...I will inform my opponent that no further Shenanigans will be tolerated.

Time - except you are not doing this instead of making a fall back - you are using a power at the start of your movement phase
What prevents the fall back is the DS rules.

Just how do you get out of the "must" though? They happen at the same time, one is an option one is a must.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - except you are not doing this instead of making a fall back - you are using a power at the start of your movement phase
What prevents the fall back is the DS rules.

Is the falling back unit making it's fallback move? If no, then they are breaking the rules. Using something else to try to get them out of it does not supercede their requirement to do so, so IMO that would mean that you cannot have them do something or have something done to them that would prevent them from making a fallback move.

don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - except you are not doing this instead of making a fall back - you are using a power at the start of your movement phase
What prevents the fall back is the DS rules.

Is the falling back unit making it's fallback move? If no, then they are breaking the rules. Using something else to try to get them out of it does not supercede their requirement to do so, so IMO that would mean that you cannot have them do something or have something done to them that would prevent them from making a fallback move.

Not exactly. You must fall back when it is your time to fall back, not sooner.

Step 1: Use GoI at the beginning of the movement phase, DS in and scatter to wherever you land.

Step 2: You now check morale to see if you regroup, as this happens before you move.

Step 3:
Pass morale: Stuck not moving because of DS rules then proceed as normal for the rest of your turn.
or
Fail morale: Stuck not moving because you cant via DS rules, even though you *Must* fall back.

Cant trumps Must.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Just how do you get out of the "must" though? They happen at the same time, one is an option one is a must.

They do not happen at the same time, GoI happens at the beginning of your movement phase, Fall back happens before the unit moves.

While GW have occasionally ruled that you cant circumvent a "must", e.g. Chaos dreads not being allowed to use smoke launchers, these are always exceptions.

there are no rules behind your position Don, just a feeling - ruleswise this is perfectly allowable. You *cannot* move any further when DS, so cannot move the full fall back move distance. You can attempt to argue this is Trapped!, but it doesnt meet the trigger conditions for trapped, just the end result

We've argued this before on the Monolith teleport, IIRC. Same result, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

but what is your opinion on the earlier point, regarding if a model hits the table edge triggering the fall back destroyed result in lieu of mishap?

I agreed on that point - if you hit the edge you are a falling back unit that has hit the edge, and are destroyed. You ALSO mishap, but its fairly irrelevant at that point

DeathReaper wrote:They do not happen at the same time, GoI happens at the beginning of your movement phase, Fall back happens before the unit moves.

Actually, GoI happens when the Librarian moves.
It may or may not be the first unit to move, but before the librarian moves is when it can attempt GoI.

Fall Back moves also do not happen at the beginning of the Movement phase, they do though happen when the unit that is falling back makes its move.

This is important for 2 reasons.

Firtst is that you might be able to tank shock an enemy unit that is keeping your unit from regrouping out of range allowing the falling back unit to attempt to regroup.

The second is that you might be able to move your own units out of the way so that the falling back unit has room and won't become trapped.

In either event, I still believe that the fall back move is clearly defined in the rulebook.
A unit that is falling back in each subsequent Movemement phase makes further fall back moves.
Even units that can attempt to regroup are told if they fail to regroup they must immediately continue to fall back.

They do so until they either regroup or contact a table edge at which point they are removed from play.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a unit that is falling back may use any special rule.
There is nothing in the rule for GoI or VoD that says the unit can make this move even if it is falling back.

And if you decided that you could use it, how far would the librarian move?
The full 24"?
And where? The unit must move "...directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."
So if you have a librarian are you going to force it to use Gate of Infinity (if so equipped) to go the full distance towards the table edge?
And what if the table edge is 22" away?
I could argue that since you have to move directly towards your table edge by the shortest route, that the shortest route is to move a full 24" using GoI which lands the Librarian off the table and it is immediately destroyed.

By allowing these options to be used, you are not making a fall back move that the rules require, and creating more difficulties and confusion than necessary.

A unit falling back that doesn't or can't regroup, in subsequent movement phases will continue to make a fall back move, which is 2D6" (or 3D6") directly towards its own table edge by the shortest possible route.

It really doesn't get much more simple than this folks.

DS placement is not a move - otherwise you have a whole host of other issues.

Using GoI is not a move, as nos has stated.

As such you can use GoI to place yourself anywhere within range regardless of the fall back rules.

At this point I will just agrree to disagree, good points on both sides. However neither side is budging and there is no 100% concrete either way imo.

Actually it is 100% concrete to one way. There is not a single rule preventing GoI from being used.

time wizard: It is used at the beginning of his movement phase, not his movement. His movement phase starts at the same time as every other models of the librarian's army.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a unit that is falling back may use any special rule.

This is a misconception. Librarians are allowed to use psychic power per default. Unlike turbo boost or gone to ground, "Fall back!" does not take this ability away, so any psychic ability would still be usable.

Jidmah wrote:Actually it is 100% concrete to one way. There is not a single rule preventing GoI from being used.

time wizard: It is used at the beginning of his movement phase, not his movement. His movement phase starts at the same time as every other models of the librarian's army.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a unit that is falling back may use any special rule.

This is a misconception. Librarians are allowed to use psychic power per default. Unlike turbo boost or gone to ground, "Fall back!" does not take this ability away, so any psychic ability would still be usable.

Note the gent on the other side of the fence said his grass was greener.

Tomato Tomatoe

concrete brick

Sitting here reading the rules myself, nothing is 100% about this imo.

Please note it actually doesnt state when the unit Must fall back so that is open to discussion. I feel it needs to be done in the beginning. In which case you would have Must fall back, and May use GoI.

As I already stated though, each their own and like I said good points made on each but 100% concrete no ... nothing in this game is where I can argue for a 5+ cover save as per the BGB

You "feel" it must be at the beginning? Thats 4th ed. 5th ed EXPLICITLY changed it so you fall back when you try to move the unit.

You have permission to use psychic powers (RAW)
You have permission to use it at the start of the movement phase (RAW)

You may use GOI (RAW)

Thats it. It is clear.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thats it. It is clear.

I disagree that it is clear.

If DS placement is not a move, and GoI is DS placement, do you also believe it can be used by the Librarian to leave close combat?

@Jidmah, The rule says it is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase." This is a direct quote from the Space Marine Codex.
I know the Librarian doesn't have its own Movement phase. But understand that it is written this way to allow the player to use this power anytime during the Movment phase.
If it instead said it is used "...at the beginning of the Movement phase." or "...at the beginning of the player's movement phase." then it would have to be the first move the player made in his turn.

Same for fall back. The move is made by the unit falling back in each subsequent movement phase. Doesn't have to be the first unit moved. There is no set order when the unit must make its fall back move.

But the only move it can make is a fall back move. And I son't see how you are justifying ignoring the part of the fall back move that says it must be made, "...directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."

If you GoI in any direction other than going straight towards your table edge, you have broken this rule.

If you DS yia GoI and scatter any direction other than directly towards your own table edge you have broken this rule.

@nosferatu - You have been one of the biggest proponents of the fact that the Necron WBB rule cannot be used if the Necron Unit is caught in a sweeping advance. This is correct because as you affirm, the WBB rule does not give specific permission to override sweeping advance from the main rulebook.

By the same token, a unit that is falling back must continue to make fall back moves until they regroup, are assaulted or leave the table. There is nothing in the GoI rule or the VoD rule that says they power may be used even if the unit is falling back. In fact, VoD even says it can be used even if the models are in base contact with an enemy unit, wording that is missing from the GoI rule.

You have always championed the fact that unless the rules give you permission to do something, you can't say it is allowed simply because it is not prohibited.

@Jidmah, The rule says it is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase." This is a direct quote from the Space Marine Codex.
I know the Librarian doesn't have its own Movement phase. But understand that it is written this way to allow the player to use this power anytime during the Movment phase.
If it instead said it is used "...at the beginning of the Movement phase." or "...at the beginning of the player's movement phase." then it would have to be the first move the player made in his turn.

No, this would be wrong. All those terms are interchangeable and mean "before anything moves normally". Models do not have their own movement phase.

Jidmah wrote: Models do not have their own movement phase.

Well, I did say that the Librarian does not have its own Movement phase, no model does for that matter.

But some things must be done first, like rolling for reserves.

And bringing units on from reserves, that must be done before moving any other units.

My point was that after that, the player may move any unit in any order he wishes, giving some tactical latitude in moving falling back units.
Specifically, it could allow you to tank shock and enemy unit away from your falling back unit giving them a chance to regroup.

There is no RaW to clear it so fluff wise I'd say "In the midst of all the panic the librarian simply does not have the mental clarity to call upon his powers". Alternatively for the VoD " the lord would use his veil but simply a strategic fall back program overwrites the programing to veil".

On a side not I see no reason why a lord could not VoD a falling back necron squad within 6 nor do I see no reason why something like the GK libby ability "the summoning" wouldn't work. After all these units are not moving rather being moved by something else.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You "feel" it must be at the beginning? Thats 4th ed. 5th ed EXPLICITLY changed it so you fall back when you try to move the unit.

You have permission to use psychic powers (RAW)
You have permission to use it at the start of the movement phase (RAW)

You may use GOI (RAW)

Thats it. It is clear.

have permission to use Psychic Powers, RAW of course
RAW it's used at the start of the movement phase
May use GOI

Must fall back

DeepStriking Rules pieces and Tid Bits
"In the Movement Phase these units May not Move Any Farther" "and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase"

Nothing states GoI replaces normal movement, however if you can't move normal can you use GoI?
As per the DS Rules DS'ing is movement and they are not falling back as they must

Cannot overrides must

nosferatu1001 wrote:Cannot overrides must

And specific overrides general.

So from a previous post of mine to you;

time wizard wrote:@nosferatu - You have been one of the biggest proponents of the fact that the Necron WBB rule cannot be used if the Necron Unit is caught in a sweeping advance. This is correct because as you affirm, the WBB rule does not give specific permission to override sweeping advance from the main rulebook.

By the same token, a unit that is falling back must continue to make fall back moves until they regroup, are assaulted or leave the table. There is nothing in the GoI rule or the VoD rule that says they power may be used even if the unit is falling back. In fact, VoD even says it can be used even if the models are in base contact with an enemy unit, wording that is missing from the GoI rule.

You have always championed the fact that unless the rules give you permission to do something, you can't say it is allowed simply because it is not prohibited.

So the question is how can you say you are allowed to use a power in a specific way when there is no specific permission to do so?

You have general permission to use the power
You have NOTHING which states you cannot use the power. NOthing whatsoever.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have permission to use psychic powers (RAW)
You have permission to use it at the start of the movement phase (RAW)
You may use GOI (RAW)

Thats it. It is clear.

have permission to use Psychic Powers, RAW of course
RAW it's used at the start of the movement phase
May use GOI

Must fall back

DeepStriking Rules pieces and Tid Bits
"In the Movement Phase these units May not Move Any Farther" "and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase"
Nothing states GoI replaces normal movement, however if you can't move normal can you use GoI?
As per the DS Rules DS'ing is movement and they are not falling back as they must

Nos has it correct, in this case, may not overrides must. and if you can't make a normal move, you still can use GoI, since GoI does not replace movement.

time wizard wrote:If you GoI in any direction other than going straight towards your table edge, you have broken this rule.

If you DS via GoI and scatter any direction other than directly towards your own table edge you have broken this rule.

100% not true.

GoI is not a move, and does not follow the movement restrictions for fall back, and as such may place yourself, and subsequently scatter in any direction.

time wizard wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thats it. It is clear.

I disagree that it is clear.

If DS placement is not a move, and GoI is DS placement, do you also believe it can be used by the Librarian to leave close combat?

Yes, since:

#1 you are allowed to use Psychic powers whilst locked in CC, unless it is a PSA.

#2 GoI is not a PSA so you can use it whilst locked in CC, GoI is not used instead of moving normally, but is only used at the beginning of the librarians movement phase.

Nebulas1 wrote:There is no RaW to clear it...

There is, as we have pointed out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have general permission to use the power
You have NOTHING which states you cannot use the power. NOthing whatsoever.

But the fall back move is specified as, units normally move 2D6", the moves are not slowed by difficult terrain and dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal

It also says, "Each model in the unit falls back directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."

So if you want to use GoI or VoD or any other psychic rule to move the unit, go ahead, but you still must move the unit "...directly towards their own table edge...".

The only exception is to move around obstructions.

Nothing states you can move in any other direction.

What you may be missing time, is that GoI is not a move.

It does not replace normal movement in any way.

And as such does not follow the restrictions placed on movement because of falling back.

DS is NOT a movement. It cannot be - so the initial placement is not movement, and you are allowed to place it anywhere.

Prove the placement is movement. You do realise the utter mess that creates, right? We've done this to death - DS placement is not movement

DeathReaper wrote: GoI is not a move, and does not follow the movement restrictions for fall back, and as such may place yourself, and subsequently scatter in any direction.

It is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."

The librarian and his unit are removed from the tabletop and placed back on it within 24".

If this isn't movement, I don't know what is.

One final thing, using Gate of Infinity you place the Librarian and his unit on the table using deep strike rules.

But, units that are falling back make "...further fall back moves..." in subsequent Movement phases.

Nothing in that section gives you permission to use deep strike rules to complete a fall back move.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Prove the placement is movement. You do realise the utter mess that creates, right? We've done this to death - DS placement is not movement

Okay, it's not movement.

Prove to me that you can ignore making a fall back move.

Using GoI or deep striking instead of making a fall back move, as required by rule, is what is creating the utter mess.

They are not doing this "instead of" making the FB move

it just so happens that they cannot move after DS; cannot overrides must

nosferatu1001 wrote: They are not doing this "instead of" making the FB move

it just so happens that they cannot move after DS;

But, again, nothing in either the DS or fall back rule gives permission for a DS move to be made instead of a fall back move.
The rules for units falling back state clearly what the fall back move is.
It also states that the unit "...will make further fall back moves...".

nosferatu1001 wrote: cannot overrides must

And rock beats paper.

So the old melodrama dialogue;

"You must pay the rent."
"I can't pay the rent."

So you don't have to pay the rent because you can't?
Or you must pay the rent and if you don't you suffer the consequences?

They use a power - this power does not make them move "instead of" making the fall back move, but makes the fall back move impossible.

Subtle difference - and indeed, cannot overrides must. You cannot make a fallback move, but (as i pointed out earlier) do NOT suffer trapped as you do not fulfill the triggers for it.

time wizard wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote: cannot overrides must

And rock beats paper.

So the old melodrama dialogue;

"You must pay the rent."
"I can't pay the rent."

So you don't have to pay the rent because you can't?
Or you must pay the rent and if you don't you suffer the consequences?

If you cant pay the rent, but you must pay the rent, does any money exchange hands?

GoI is not used Instead of making a normal move.

You are allowed to use GoI when locked in CC.

You are allowed to use GoI while falling back.

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI when locked in CC.

Please quote the rule that allows this.

The Necron VoD states right in the rule that the veil may be used even if in base contact with enemy models.
GoI does not state that it can be used when locked in CC.

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI while falling back.

Again, please quote the specific rule that says you are allowed to do so.

The rules for the power generate the permission

please, find something that states you CANNOT use the power; we have shown you CAN, you must show the restriction, which you have so far failed to do.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI when locked in CC.

Please quote the rule that allows this.

The Necron VoD states right in the rule that the veil may be used even if in base contact with enemy models.
GoI does not state that it can be used when locked in CC.

Yes it does state that it can be used when locked in CC, by the general allowance to cast a psychic power.

Page 50. BRB "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

This allows you to use your psychic power once per player turn. If there are no further restrictions you can use the power at any point, but only once per player turn.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI while falling back.

Again, please quote the specific rule that says you are allowed to do so.

Again P.50 allows this and I will need to see something that restricts this to override the general allowance to use a psychic power once per player turn.

Well, to quote Jidmah from a different thread;

Jidmah wrote: In a permissive rule set you are not allowed to do anything unless explicitly told to do so.

But you are now telling me to find a rule that explicitly denies allowing you to do something.

As I said, VoD says it can be used to move out of base contact with enemy units.

GoI says no such thing.

So would I have to find the rule that says you may not use GoI to move out of close combat?

Fall Back! says in subsequent turns you will continue to make fall back moves.
It even describes what those are.

But you are demanding that I find a part that says "You may not use GoI of VoD or other similar rules."?

As Jidmah said, you need permission to do something.
Neither GoI nor VoD gives permission for the power to be used when falling back.
No permission to do anything but continue to fall back.
The exceptions are clearly noted as well, nothing that says a psychic power or a piece of wargear can be used instead.

So did I find a rule that specificaly says you may not use GoI when falling back? No, I did not.

But did you find a rule that specifically says you may? I think not.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
Again P.50 allows this and I will need to see something that restricts this to override the general allowance to use a psychic power once per player turn.

Page 50 gives the general rules for using psychic powers. It says that the powers are discussed in the rules and that is where the complete rules for the power can be found.

Back to the permissive ruleset, VoD says it can be used to move out of base contact, GoI does not.

Are you seriously suggesting that because a rule in the Necron codex says a rule can be used that it is allowed to in the Space Marine Codex?

That because a Necron Lord can use a power to leave CC that a Librarian can as well?

Then by the same token, ATSKNF allows marines to not be swept in a sweeping advance.
So Necron WBB will allow the same thing.

Except WBB doesn't allow it. It does not specifically say that they are not destroyed by a sweeping advance like the marines ATSKNF rule.

I don't think there's anything more I can say.

I can't prove you can't do something by finding a specific rule that prohibits it, and you don't have a rule that specifically sayd you can do something which you feel means you can do it anyway.

I'm just surprised how folks who hang their hats on "find the rule that says you can" can change that to "find the rule that says you can't" whenever they choose.

Time - that isnt how it works.

If yu have permission saying you CAN do something, you must find a restriction or you CAN do the thing. THats how the rules work.

You're essentially asking for rules showing permission to deploy inside a forest, when all we have are rules that allow us to deploy anywhere on the table. We have permission to use GoI, you have to find something that restricts this, or you have no argument.

time wizard wrote:But did you find a rule that specifically says you may? I think not.

Page 50 states that I can use my psychic power.

The SM rules say I can use it at the beginning of the librarians movement phase.

No other restrictions are in place, so I can use the psychic power at the beginning of the librarians movement phase, without restriction.

The above rules are where it says I may.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Again P.50 allows this and I will need to see something that restricts this to override the general allowance to use a psychic power once per player turn.

Page 50 gives the general rules for using psychic powers. It says that the powers are discussed in the rules and that is where the complete rules for the power can be found.

Back to the permissive ruleset, VoD says it can be used to move out of base contact, GoI does not.

Logical Fallicy, It does not say I can use it to move into difficult terrain either...

We have to look at the brb and the codex otherwise we have no way of knowing how to cast psychic powers.

so P.50 allows us to use psychic powers, the SM rules tell us we can use this power at the beginning of the movement phase. no other restrictions are put on the power. So If it is the beginning of the librarians movement phase, and he passes his Leadership test then he can use GoI, as there are no other restrictions on using GoI in the text.

time wizard wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that because a rule in the Necron codex says a rule can be used that it is allowed to in the Space Marine Codex?

That because a Necron Lord can use a power to leave CC that a Librarian can as well?

Then by the same token, ATSKNF allows marines to not be swept in a sweeping advance.
So Necron WBB will allow the same thing.

Except WBB doesn't allow it. It does not specifically say that they are not destroyed by a sweeping advance like the marines ATSKNF rule.

I can't prove you can't do something by finding a specific rule that prohibits it, and you don't have a rule that specifically sayd you can do something which you feel means you can do it anyway.

Whatever VoD is (I am assuming it is a necron power by the context) I made no mention of it, and I am not really sure what it is, so I was not basing anything on it. Of course the Necron codex has no bearing on the SM codex. It appears as if the line allowing you to use it to move out of base contact is redundant in 5th Ed. (noting that Necrons were not written for 5th ed, and they may have needed to qualify it in a previous edition.)

time wizard wrote:I'm just surprised how folks who hang their hats on "find the rule that says you can" can change that to "find the rule that says you can't" whenever they choose.

Yes, it is a permissive ruleset. In this instance we have found the rule that says we can.
However, if one rule says I can do something, then, according to the permissive ruleset, you need to "find the rule that says you can't" but only in that instance where you have been given explicit permission to perform said action. Which is the case for psychic powers.

Let's get this straight,

I may Use GoI, however my unit is broken and falling back.
GoI uses DS which is a form of movement.
Beings I am broken and if I use GoI I must go towards my closest board edge?

Except Deep Strike is not a form of movement.

So you can use GoI to place yourself anywhere on the board, then before you move attempt to rally.

DeathReaper wrote:Except Deep Strike is not a form of movement.

So you can use GoI to place yourself anywhere on the board, then before you move attempt to rally.

However it is considered movement, so

" in the movement phase when they arrive these units may not move any further,"
"In that turns shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Edited to cite
BGB Pg 95

yes, even though Deep Striking is not movement, you are counted as if you have moved, this is to prevent you from moving and/or firing heavy weapons.

Similar to a vehicle that has Deep Struck, it has not moved (Since it was not on the table prior to the Deep Strike attempt) but counts as if moving cruising speed.

Once again though It's a deep strike move, the units falling back and must go towards the closest table edge

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Once again though It's a deep strike move, the units falling back and must go towards the closest table edge

No, Deep strike is not a move.

You can be placed anywhere on the table with GoI, since it is not a move and is not restricted by the fall back rules.

Once you arrive at the location you just deep struck to, you attempt to rally, then if that is not successful you stay in place since you can not move because of the DS rules.

On your next turn you attempt to rally, then if that is not successful you fall back your normal fall back distance. (Normally 2D6)

so it counts as moving, physically moves, smells and tastes like moving but isn't moving ...

on pg 95 there is a neat line though "too disrupted by their deep strike move" heh guess that makes it RaW a move??

you play it your way I'll play it mine
We each see it our way and not the other and I dont think any rule will make us change our views.

Remember that Fluff =/= rules.

Also remember that the deep strike rules only cover having them enter play and be deployed via deep strike.

GoI breaks that a bit since you are not in reserve, but you are using the DS rules.

DS does not say that it is a move, so it is not.

Regardless it's clearly in the B&W as Deep Strike Move.

GoI uses Deep Strike so whether they are from reserve or not, this doesn't matter.

I guess the ultimate question is, if a model counts as moving did it in fact move?

I have to say yes and yes to that, clearly if it counts as moving than by definition the model has "moved" or counts as having been "moved"

therefore the unit must make it's fallback move as normal.

For example DT tests may have to be made by DS'ing Units/models etc

DT Tests are made when a model entered, left or moved through one or more areas of DT during it's move See pg 14 BgB for exact text

beings you can only take DT tests during it's move ... guess that's movement ...

Except once the unit uses GoI it can not move because the DS rules restrict them from doing so.

You are allowed to use GoI, since it is used at the beginning of the librarians movement phase, Also GoI is not done "Instead of moving normally" It is a Psychic power that takes effect before the unit makes their fall back move.

So a unit can use GoI to be placed anywhere within 24 inches of the librarians current location, then they attempt to regroup, and if they fail (ATSKNF prevents the Space Marines from failing this test) they are stuck not moving because they "Are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules." P.57 SM codex

Alright let's try this once more.
Because there is no rule to disallow the Libby from casting GoI which like it or not is a "movement" power that replaces the unit's "normal" movement (I'm aware it doesn't say this) however it's common sense that a unit cannot move twice.

Why do they move than try and regroup?
Why don't they try to regroup first?

Your questions dont make sense.

They use GoI first, because thats when GoI says you use it.

thats it. Nothing else.

I couldn't find anything under fall back that tells you when you try and regroup, I just wanted to see if I was missing something.

So even though DS'ing is movement, it's not considered normal movement?

You try to regroup when you try to move the unit - and you have to do this at some point in the movement phase. However, as I stated earlier, in an EXPLICIT change to 4th ed they removed the requirement to try to regroup at the start of the movement phase.

I just wanted to make sure of everything, I must have misread when you stated that earlier. I thought it was to something else at the time.

Alright makes sense to me and we got some good points across without getting too heated.

GoI/DS =/= normal movement
GoI/DS'ing ='s Movement
The unit is not bound to take a fall back move/ break test at any certain point in the movement phase

Did i miss any key points?

IF someone tried pulling those shenanigans I would scoop. It's cheesy and it circumvents RAI in every way.

It seems that since Deep Striking is not moving, has to be called movement or the model moves, then GoI can be used at the start of the movement phase that belongs to the libbys player. After resolving the DS you then check to see if you can rally (ATSKNF applies) if not or if you fail then you would normally attempt to fall back to your own board edge as per the Fall Back rules, however you cannot since you have Deep Striked via GoI.
Also since GoI is not movement under its own rules then you can choose anywhere GoI allows you to even if it is further away from your board edge.

Wow, sorry I started this post. I do thank everyone for their Opinions and Interpretations. Next time I'll just kill the Damned Libby.

Ray Age wrote:Wow, sorry I started this post. I do thank everyone for their Opinions and Interpretations. Next time I'll just kill the Damned Libby.

Do not be sorry, it is one of the many situations that people can become confused about.

It is good to ask for clarification on things such as this so you and others can play by the correct rules.

So if you ever play someone outside your group you can play the way the book says to and will not be confused on the legality of things.

DeathReaper wrote:

Ray Age wrote:Wow, sorry I started this post. I do thank everyone for their Opinions and Interpretations. Next time I'll just kill the Damned Libby.

Do not be sorry, it is one of the many situations that people can become confused about.

It is good to ask for clarification on things such as this so you and others can play by the correct rules.

So if you ever play someone outside your group you can play the way the book says to and will not be confused on the legality of things.

Agreed, this was a good in depth and tbh quite fun ruling. Alot of good points were made from all sides, and best of all noone suffered a nerd rage.

Thanks Nos, Time, Jidmah, Reaper, OP and everyone else for their contributions

JD

Hey way back in the original post, the intent was to move the libby right to the board edge to force a mishap right? On pg 45 of the BGB is says that if a unit leaves the table it counts as destroyed. (2nd Paragraph under Fall Back) So once the unit is removed from the table it would be destroyed and the point is moo..

There is a flaw here in that it says if a model touches the table edge in the 4th paragraph down, so technically it could be possible to argue that you never touched the table edge.

Id say you can't by raw place you model over the board edge for the attempt but next to it and hope you scatter for the mishap. However this brings up a separate problem. A unit suffering fall back rules which touch the edge of the board are imeaditly removed from play. I believe this would prevent the mishap from occuring. However nothing prevents you from trying to ds on top of a model or other impassible terrian to generate the mishap.

When DS'ing though is it legal placement to place a model off the table?

unless you try to hit board edge and scatter off

No I don't believe you can have the initial placement off of the table, no more than you can choose to move off of a table. (Fleeing is an exception)

DS lets you place the model anywhere ON the table. GoI is anywhere on the table within 24", so in neither case can you place it off the table

What I don't understand is why, in the original post, he would gate somewhere to force a mishap when he could just gate somewhere safe and regroup?

Was reading over this and thought I would toss out my findings as well.

So we all agree on a few things....

1) GOI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase.
2) The Librarian and his unit are falling back.
3) The Librarian and his unit have an enemy unit within 6" forcing them to fail regroup test.
4) GOI is a movement...psychic or otherwise it allows the unit to move.

So..if we agree on this, what about rulebook pg. 46, under the heading Regrouping...

A unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move.

So, the unit is attempting to move, doesn't matter if it is via a psychic ability, normally, act of god, act of the emperor, or jumping out of the way of a grot holding a vortex grenade...the unit is going to move. This is when it test to regroup. And it fails...due to unit within 6". So...

Continued from the same heading at the bottom...

If the unit fails its leadership test, (or cannot regroup because of the restrictions given above), then it must immediately continue to fall back.

Seem cut and dry to me. The unit is trying to not be in the same place it was before, which is a move, so before it can attempt it, the rules for regrouping take effect, you then must immediately continue the fall back, disallowing you to attempt the GoI.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:The unit is trying to not be in the same place it was before, which is a move.

The above is incorrect, since the BRB defines move. The unit physically is moved, but that is not the same as the rules telling us what they define a move to be. (AKA normal movement)

#3 is only true when the unit is checking to see if it can regroup, which happens after the beginning of the movement phase(when GoI is cast), but before the unit moves.(Which is after GoI is cast) So if there are any enemies within 6" of the new location after DSing with GoI then #3 is true, however we do not know the status of the field so #3 is most likely not true.

Except the BRB defines what is a move so we do not agree on #4.

GoI is not a move, It is a Psychic Power that does not replace the units normal movement.

It allows the unit to be placed somewhere else within 24" of the librarians current location using the Deep Strike Rules.

You use GoI at the beginning of the movement phase.

You attempt to rally before when you attempt to move the unit that is falling back.

Except the BRB defines what is a move so we do not agree on #4.

okay what page is this on...I see movement phase, move thru cover, and a bunch of other, but no specifics on what classifies a "move". I am referring to the word move in a dictionary.

GoI is not a move, It is a Psychic Power that does not replace the units normal movement. It allows the unit to be placed somewhere else within 24" of the librarians current location using the Deep Strike Rules.

I think they italics falls under the terms of the word "move".

I see your point, but it is stretching the phrasing too far. If I remove a model from the board, I am still moving the model.

Should it be FAQ'd sure, I like how fantasy breaks down the phases, think it would solve a lot of problems if GW added this to 40k in 6th edition.

GoI is a move, as only models making a move may take dangerous terrain tests

It is however, not normal movement

Not true. DS is not a move in and of itself, it just states you take DT tests and you may not move after making the GoI /DS move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not true. DS is not a move in and of itself, it just states you take DT tests and you may not move after making the GoI /DS move.

1) Yes, Deep Striking counts as movement. The rules specifically say that a unit which Deep Strikes cannot move any further, which by definition means they moved when Deep Striking.


2) Why has this gone on for so many pages? GW has already ruled on 3 similar situations in their FAQs: Necron Veil of Darkness, Eldar Skyleap & Grey Knight Summoning. In all cases they ruled that a falling back model cannot be moved via these abilities as it has to make a fall back move instead...and the Summoning uses the exact same wording as GOI (used at the start of the movement phase).

Why would there be any expectation that GOI should work any differently from the rest of these similar abilities when it comes to this particular question?

@yakface - So would you then agree that a unit that is falling back can only make further fall back moves in it subsequent Movement phases until or unless it regroups, is destroyed or touches the table edge?

time wizard wrote:@yakface - So would you then agree that a unit that is falling back can only make further fall back moves in it subsequent Movement phases until or unless it regroups, is destroyed or touches the table edge?

Not quite. In the movement phase a falling back unit must make a fall back move and therefore cannot utilize any other type of movement it would normally be able to use in that phase.

However, GW has ruled that special movement that takes place in other phases (such as running, Jump Pack Assault moves, etc) can still be used in those phases, but only to move the unit in the direction it is already falling back.

yakface wrote:... GW has already ruled on 3 similar situations in their FAQs: Necron Veil of Darkness, Eldar Skyleap & Grey Knight Summoning. In all cases they ruled that a falling back model cannot be moved via these abilities as it has to make a fall back move instead...and the Summoning uses the exact same wording as GOI (used at the start of the movement phase).

I did not know they made rulings for other similar powers.

Now is a question of how you would play it.

Would you let them use GoI to move directly towards their table edge thus following the fall back restrictions?

DeathReaper wrote: I did not know they made rulings for other similar powers.

Here they are if you're interested.

Q. Can the veil of darkness be used to teleport a
falling back unit? What if the Lord with the veil
is falling back himself?
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally), and may not be
used to teleport a unit who is Falling Back at the
start of the turn (as he may not join a unit that is
falling back).

Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the
turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn?
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before
it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite
strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it
passes the test or fails it.

Q: Can a Librarian use The Summoning psychic power
to transport a unit that is falling back? (p25)
A: No.

DeathReaper wrote:Now is a question of how you would play it.

Would you let them use GoI to move directly towards their table edge thus following the fall back restrictions?

No, I would not. As I have previously posted, a unit that is falling back is required to make a fall back move.
This move is explained in the fall back section of the rules.

A generic Space Marine Ligrarian's GoI is the essentially the same as the 3 powers listed above.
I don't believe you can use GoI to teleport a unit that is falling back or to teleport out of close combat either.

But it would seem that I am in the minority on this.

You pasted one FAQ twice

But actually
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally).
settles it for me. This is proves that picking up your models from the table and immediately putting them down at some other place on the map is normal movement.

time wizard wrote: Here they are if you're interested.

Q. Can the veil of darkness be used to teleport a
falling back unit? What if the Lord with the veil
is falling back himself?
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally), and may not be
used to teleport a unit who is Falling Back at the
start of the turn (as he may not join a unit that is
falling back).

That made me change my mind as the bold part pretty much says it all...no you can't do it.

Jidmah wrote:You pasted one FAQ twice

But actually
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally).
settles it for me. This is proves that picking up your models from the table and immediately putting them down at some other place on the map is normal movement.

Thank Jidmah, had a cut and paste glitch.
Have edited to include the swooping hawks, duplicated here.

Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the
turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn?
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before
it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite
strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it
passes the test or fails it.

This thread brings to light many inconsistencies in GW's rules set, which should come as no surprise. In the absence of those above posted rulings, I would say that Nosferatu and DeathReaper had this one correct. The only place that referenced a Deep Strike as being movement is in the emphasis Yakface pointed out. "May not move FURTHER that phase" implies that Deep Striking is in fact movement, but nowhere does it SPECIFICALLY say that. An implication is not the same as a specific clarification. These are the kinds of things that GW needs to cut out of their rules, because they are a cancer eating at the core of this game system, and they lead to this kind of pointless debate. If you mean a thing, say it clearly and specifically, and take every effort to ensure it is spelled out clearly to your players. Players are NOT development staff, and they don't "know what you mean".

As the rules are written now, I would have ruled that GoI is not movement, and is used prior to the point of the unit making its fall back move, and not used INSTEAD of that fall back move. The unit may not make its fall back move because Deep Strike does not allow them to do so. That said, GW clearly ruled the other way on three similar abilities, which is contradictory to the way the rules are actually written. In a system that saw extensive play-testing, 3rd party revision and public beta, this would not happen. Hopefully GW will correct this in the future, but I doubt it.

If you look at the rules for Deep Strike and compare them to the rules for Disembarkation from a vehicle after the vehicle has moved, they are quite similar in what they allow. A unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved and cannot move any further that phase. A unit that disembarks from a vehicle counts as having moved, and if the vehicle moved, they cannot move any further that phase. Would this imply that disembarkation is movement? If it's movement, then how does a unit disembark from a Drop Pod? It arrived via Deep Strike, and the unit inside counts as having arrived from Deep Strike (per the FAQ). They must immediately disembark the transport, but they cannot because the rules for Deep Strike prevent them from moving any further that phase.

To raise another question along these lines, what happens if a unit arrives via Deep Strike, scatters into Dangerous Terrain, rolls enough 1's to force morale and fails the test. Deep Strike specifically states that the unit can move no further that phase, so would they just stand still and fall back next turn (or rally if no enemy is within 6")?

Aldarionn wrote:If you look at the rules for Deep Strike and compare them to the rules for Disembarkation from a vehicle after the vehicle has moved, they are quite similar in what they allow. A unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved and cannot move any further that phase. A unit that disembarks from a vehicle counts as having moved, and if the vehicle moved, they cannot move any further that phase. Would this imply that disembarkation is movement? If it's movement, then how does a unit disembark from a Drop Pod? It arrived via Deep Strike, and the unit inside counts as having arrived from Deep Strike (per the FAQ). They must immediately disembark the transport, but they cannot because the rules for Deep Strike prevent them from moving any further that phase.

Yes, disembarking is a form of non-standard movement. GW's rulebook FAQ clarifies this, which is why you are not allowed to disembark your models 'through' impassable terrain or other models.

In the case of models disembarking from Drop Pods (and other Deep Striking transports), the reason they can do so is because they have specific rules allowing them to do so. The basic DS rules say that transported units that arrive via Deep Strike aren't allowed to move any FURTHER that phase except to disembark from their vehicle.

So there is no contradiction in this instance.

To raise another question along these lines, what happens if a unit arrives via Deep Strike, scatters into Dangerous Terrain, rolls enough 1's to force morale and fails the test. Deep Strike specifically states that the unit can move no further that phase, so would they just stand still and fall back next turn (or rally if no enemy is within 6")?

Correct, the unit would count as 'falling back' but would not make a fall back move that phase because they are not allowed to move any further that phase.

yakface wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:To raise another question along these lines, what happens if a unit arrives via Deep Strike, scatters into Dangerous Terrain, rolls enough 1's to force morale and fails the test. Deep Strike specifically states that the unit can move no further that phase, so would they just stand still and fall back next turn (or rally if no enemy is within 6")?

Correct, the unit would count as 'falling back' but would not make a fall back move that phase because they are not allowed to move any further that phase.

Two points to consider.
First, since the rules tell a unit to make a fall back move immediately upon failing a morale check, wouldn't this be compulsory movement that the unit would be forced to make?
I think forcing a unit to fall back is an exception to "the unit may not move any further".

Second, both DS and disembark state the unit may not move further in that Movement phase.
A morale check for losing 25% or a units strength is taken at the end of the phase, which would be after all models have moved.
I believe this also means the unit will immediately make its fall back move since it is at the end of the phase.

Falling back is a result or a penalty that a unit suffers after taking casualties.
You cannot "voluntarily" fall back, it happens as a result of failing a morale test.
Not being able to move after DS or disembarking is preventing a unit from executing a voluntary move that phase, it should not be a shield that prevents a unit from having to fall back if it suffers damage.

No - "must" is overridden by "cannot", consistently.