Orkz! Orkz are made for fightin' and winnin'! Deem 'umies hide in der boxes, da panzzies are weak, and da bugs go splat on our trukks! You want da best, deen ya want da boyz!
Blood Angels have all the deep strike cheese and Assault troops, along with Furious Charge and Feel No Pain on all of their guys. Your Valmanway Dreadnought (for a lulzfest, especially against Orks anf other horde) can catch a ride in a Storm Raven with his Assault Marine posse to back him up. Mephiston when your opponent isn't ready for him.
Tyranids are nasty in close combat. Almost everybody has Fleet and there is much deepstrike and infiltrate to go around. Genestealers. Genestealers. Monstrous Creatures are always fun as well.
I'm going with Nids, I've never been in CC against them and had a happy ending. Guy I know a guy who loves to outflank his opponents with Genestealers and carnifex rush them from the front. Not to mention his apparent addiction to always having as HQ a Swarmlord and a Hive Tyrant.
I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
And you still strike at initiative one as your assaulting a unit in cover without grenades, plus the effect of psykout grenades thanks to the brood lord and then the grey knight player will direct his attacks against the genestealers and kill them off before returning to slapping the termagaunts around.
I'm sure your next response will be "but I send in a swarm lord too".
I'm talking one unit of paladins or Purifiers of equal cost to your stealer unit that is sat in cover. It wins every time.
The penalty for Intiatve doesn't apply if the uint were locked in combat already,BRB. Psykout greandes and Cleansing flame don't work on units that charge THEM.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And remember that even paladins have only so many attacks.You are fighting 50 guys with a maximum of 10.
weaker ones-30
and faster,stronger ones that hit on 3+ and the leader can negate 1 man before combat kicks off,and inflict instant death on the paladins on a 6,with no armour save.AND,if you wound the 'lord,the wounder must pass an initiative test of suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Also remember that Tyranids can take more monstrous creatures in a single force organization chart than any other
HQ Swarmlord andHiveTyrant or 2 Hive tyrant Elites 3 zoanthropes/3 pyrovores/3 venomthropes with myectic spores Troops 3 broods of 20 termagants in spores 3 tervigons Fats Attack 3 harpies Heavy support 3 broods of 3 carnifexes
That's 23 MCs in a legal army + 0 gants and 3 zoanthropes/venomthropes/pyrovores
Gene stealers lose by 4 and break or lose both remaining gene stealers and wound the brood lord due to fearless.
Fourth round 1 wounded brood lord vs 4 wounded paladins
Brood lord inflicts 0 wounds
Paladins kill brood lord
So paladins win in the end having suffered six wounds and one casualty, all gene stealers are dead.
Charging into cover ruins gene stealer units, if these combats happened in the open it would be a different story, paladins should definately lose, however if the Purifiers had Halberds instead of Falchions, (making them cheaper) then they stand a fighting chance.
Purifiers in open with Halberds vs that unit of gene stealers
Cleansing flare kills 7 stealers.
Stealers and Purifiers fight simultaneously, brood lord init 1 due to psykout
Stealers kill 8 Purifiers
Purifiers kill 5 stealers
Brood lord kills 1 purifier
Purifiers win by three, 50/50 stealers break or lose 2 stealers to fearless.
Round two 5 stealers 1 brood lord vs 1 purifier
Stealers lose 2 to cleansing flame
Stealers kill last purifier
Purifier kills 0 stealers
Stealers win but there are only 3 stealers and a brood lord left after fighting a unit that is 150 points cheaper.
Point for point stealer unit vs equivalent pts of Purifiers ( which is 16 of them) Purifiers in the open win every time.
Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Beat that unit in combat
Paladins.
Cover or quicksilver, sanctuary, rad, blind, psychotokes, and hammerhand = you lose.
Missed the bit on psykout grenades but cleansing flame is every combat phase, even your opponents.
It's all well and good adding extra units in but point for point the Purifiers always win against horde units due to cleansing flare vs stealers and against monstrous creatures they just force weapon them down.
And for the points shown there a grey knight player can run
Hq Crowe
6 x ten paladins with four psycannons, Halberds, psybolts with passbacks
3 x riflemen with psybolts
3 x venerable riflemen with psybolts
3 x storm ravens with hvy bolter, assault cannon, hurricane bolters and Psybolt
Plus I'll still probably have points to spare
That's 24 x str 8 twin linked shots, 48 x str 8 rending, 36 x str 7 twin linked rending, 9 x str 6 twin linked, 6(12) x str 5 twin linked (rapid fire), 72 x str 5 shots per turn.
Thats backed up by cleansing flame all over the place and force weapons.
Tyrannids stack up awful against grey knights, it's odd that Grey knights are better against 'bids than demons.
Who would have thunk it?
Doing it as cheap as possible with no upgrades that nid list is approx 4000 pts the list i suggested is 3,555
Those examples assume that the GKs are in cover,and you have sanctuary,rad blind,psyotroke greandes and that you pass your test for hammerhand.Psykout grenades have no effect if the unit is charged,and cover has no penalty if the unit isd locked in combat.
The MC example depends on whether or not you can wound.
Termagants with Tervigon support. 4+ to wound, +1 Str/Ini (to make them initiative 5) on the charge. Not only that, they're dirt cheap, and are spawned by the dozens often.
Can termagaunts lock a 10 man unit of Purifiers in combat? Let's work it out!
Purifiers standing in cover with Falchions, getting assaulted by thirty gants plus the twenty gene stealer unit. That's right 550 pts of nids vs 290pts of GK.
Cleansing flare kills twelve gants and seven genestealers.
Brood lord gets 5 attacks, 4 hits after re-rolls, 3 wounds, 2 dead Purifiers ( that's the optimistic rounding up version).
Gene stealers get 36 attacks, 30 hits after re-rolls, 5 rending, ten wounds killing 3 after saves.
So surprise, surprise twice as many points wins, ain't that strange however the Purifiers still kill 192 points back in the process.
Now we do the same but play around with toy box to even out the points. Let's chuck in a librarian with sanctuary, might of Titan and quicksilver with a stave.
That's got the points about even so let's go again.
Difficult terrain kills 5 gants and 4 genestealers.
Cleansing flare kills 11 gants and 6 stealers.
This leaves 14 gants, 9 stealers and 1 brood lord.
Purifiers strike at init 10, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 9 dead stealers and 1 wound on brood lord.
Lets say librarian failed his test so can't attack.
As before optimistic brood lord can kill two Purifiers.
Gants then get 28 attacks, 14 hits, 5 wounds, optimistically kills two Purifiers.
Both nids lose by 32 both units either break or if in synapse die to fearless.
So in even points GK win handsomely.
So as I said before, point for point GKs are better in combat than nids ;-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: As far as the termagaunt tervigon combo goes.
Tervigon with adrenal, toxin sacs is 180, the we give it the average 11 gants for free.
GK player gets 6 Purifiers with Falchions @ 174 pts
But you are still assuming they are in cover!Purifiers are 1 of 2 things
In a non-crowe list,they are elites and can't afford to be sitting in cover shooting or else they don't make up their points cost
In a Crowe army they are troops.This ahs the same problem as above,but it also means they be sitting because they need to move to capture objectives.
@dead shot both the termagaunt and gene stealer vs purifier and the gant and stealer vs purifier and librarian examples are in the open.
@monster rain 30 ork boys with klaw nob charging 7 Purifiers with Falchions (equal cost) beat the Purifiers regardless of cover. As far as the green fellows go might does indeed equal right!
Deadshot wrote:But you are still assuming they are in cover!Purifiers are 1 of 2 things
In a non-crowe list,they are elites and can't afford to be sitting in cover shooting or else they don't make up their points cost
In a Crowe army they are troops.This ahs the same problem as above,but it also means they be sitting because they need to move to capture objectives.
Errr? Purifiers can take two special weapons per 5 models. More often than not these are psycannons. Sitting in terrain shooting is *exactly* what they want to be doing, whilst simultaneously daring units w/out grenades to charge at them. Your 'Nids get stomped by Purifiers, plain and simple.
L. Wrex
EDIT: And for what it's worth, Inquisitorial Henchmen can be the most points-efficient deathstar in the game. Xenos Inq w/ rad and psychotroke grenades plus psyker lvl 1 (hammerhand) in a unit of 7 Death Cult Assassins and 4 Crusaders is 250pts. That's (on the charge) 28 WS5, I6 power weapon attacks with you at T3 and me at S5 (should HH go off) plus 5 force weapon attacks + 8 more power weapon attacks that also have 3++ saves in case anything is left alive after the DCA's get done. That's also not taking account psychotroke effects.
And what's more is your assuming that the roll would be thet average rolls.It's likely that a wraithlord will do damage on a rhino,but it is entirely likely to roll all 1s on the damage chart,then have the tank turn and run it over with a failed Death or Glory.
Deadshot wrote:And what's more is your assuming that the roll would be thet average rolls.It's likely that a wraithlord will do damage on a rhino,but it is entirely likely to roll all 1s on the damage chart,then have the tank turn and run it over with a failed Death or Glory.
So, in other words, your argument is Dice, not stats. Pretty weak argument when it comes down to a purely random cube not following likely outcomes.
When using Theoryhammer, all you have to go on is statistics.
Grey Knights currently can provide the best CC army with Purifier Spam.
You've got high armor? Cool, we have forceweapons, will get +1S and, if we pay for it, we're going first.
You're a Horde? Good thing we have a "F*%& your horde" Psychic power.
Monstrous Creature/multi-wounds? Forceweapons HO!
Not to mention that 4 units can have "Screw your army" grenades and an additional +1S Psychic Power(Take a Xenos Inq and 3 Techmarines with Rad and Suckotrok grenades).
Not to mention the Purifier squads shooting you to pieces before you even get close to them.
Not to mention fire support from underpriced and unshakable/unstunable Psyfilemens and S6 Razorbacks.
Sure a couple tailored army lists might be a hard counter to Purifiers, but that's not enough.
All very costly.Nids have very cheap units and lots of deepstrikers to get close quick and charge.Also don't forget that when facing tyranids with GK that there will be synapse creatures close by,so all the psychic test will be on 3D6,with either no perils of the warp(no double 1 or 6),1 (a double 1 or 6 and another numbe)r,or 3(treble 1 or 6)!
@lwrex that's when it gets ugly if you factor shooting in, the Purifiers if loaded out for gaming would normally have four psycannons, Halberds and psybolts.
They would get at least one round of shooting with means
Stormbolters get 12 shots, 8 hits, kill 5.5ish
Psycannons get 8 shots, 5.5 hits, kills 4.5ish
So ten gene stealers dead before assault
Cleansing flame kills 4
We assume one halberd marine fails LD vs Brood so doesnt fight.
So five Purifiers with Halberds, 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 kills
Then four Purifiers with Psycannons, 8 attacks, 4 hit, 2 wounds, 1 kill
This leaves 1 gene stealer and 1 brood lord
Stealer 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, no kills
Brood lord, 5 attacks, 4 hits, 1 rend, 1 kill
So stealers lose by seven and break or unit takes three wounds due to fearless and goes on to lose.
In the open 10 dead stealers from shooting
4 from flare
Brood lord kills 1 purifier allocated to Psycannon.
Halberds (one not fighting due to brood) kill three stealers as before
Psycannons 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 kill
Purifiers win by 4 stealers break or lose two wounds due to fearless leaving a wounded brood lord to fight vs 3 x Halberds and 3 x Psycannon purifiers. Brood lord dies.
Dark Eldar with Duke Sliscus , Reavers, Hellions and mounted Incubi, Wyches and Hekatrix Blood Brides. Deep striking the entire army with their fire support and the ability to move up in their transport and assault on the same turn if they scatter.
Haemonculi webway coven with Wracks and Grotesques and Incubi can also hurt.
Though a good grey knight player will always use it's underpriced support fire to kill any synapse in range of affecting the crucial psychic in the assault phase.
It's Orks that do bad things to grey knights when they unleash five battlewagons with death rollers full of evil intent.
Spamming armor value 14 that's perma obscured is not fun for the grey knight player. Always fun to run over passbacks and psyfledreads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of raw nuisance and durability 10 x thunder hammer terminators, with their buddy vulkan and a Libby terminator with storm shield and gate of infinity are less than friendly too.
Incubi nice and cheap for there output but do lack grenades though luckily you can buy an archon with a grenade pack to buddy up, lots of points but does help overcome that one problem.
Maybe it's because they don't have much in the way of Power Weapons, and I usually have Null Zone in my lists, but my Sternguard have beaten them in CC more often than not.
Deadshot wrote:And what's more is your assuming that the roll would be thet average rolls.It's likely that a wraithlord will do damage on a rhino,but it is entirely likely to roll all 1s on the damage chart,then have the tank turn and run it over with a failed Death or Glory.
Of course we're assuming average rolls. What possible other method have we got to measure the chances of something happening? When you start saying things like 'but the dice might not roll that way' then your arguement is getting weaker by the second.
Deadshot wrote:All very costly.Nids have very cheap units and lots of deepstrikers to get close quick and charge.Also don't forget that when facing tyranids with GK that there will be synapse creatures close by,so all the psychic test will be on 3D6,with either no perils of the warp(no double 1 or 6),1 (a double 1 or 6 and another numbe)r,or 3(treble 1 or 6)!
UNCLEBADTOUCH has already informed you about points values. The Purifiers come out cheaper than the Genestealers, even with over-the-top upgrades like Falchions.
L. Wrex
EDIT: Wyches need at *least* one FnP token to actually be able to stand up in CC, and an additional one (plus the charge) if they ever hope to do any damage. Bloodbrides, however, are an entirely different kettle of fish....
If you change the basis for discussion to one where no objective comparison is possible; that is, opinions about the fluff, it becomes kind of pointless.
When we're talking about game stats and point values we can actually work out, using math, which units are more effective.
Deadshot wrote:I still thimk as an Army,nids are the best.They don't train for it,they are made for it,designed for it,born for the very purpose!
Orks are bred for it too, and don't exactly train. They were made and designed for it.
Marines are made/designed for it, reborn for the very purpose also, post genetic tinkering. They do train as well, because training makes even a badass badder..
Daemons also fit your description..
*shrug*
Your opinion is your own, and i agree that Nids can be a beast, but the qualifier also fits other armies as well.
I'm gonna toss down that Necrons are also built for fighting, but I wouldn't ever bet on them in a CC fight '>..>
And now to contribute!
I would place my votes with a Khorne central army. Skarbrand mounted on whatever it is that he can take alongside hoards of Bloodletters. They are not going to fair well to shooting, true, but when they hit CC they are making everything run on an invul. which Always helps their odds amazingly
Monster Rain wrote:I'm going to assume that I roll nothing but sixes, and posit that Necron Warriors with a Disruption Field are the nastiest Close Combat Unit.
Against tanks maybe.
Spoiler:
Disruption field makes necrons have "Gauss" CC attacks against vehicles.
Deadshot wrote:I still thimk as an Army,nids are the best.They don't train for it,they are made for it,designed for it,born for the very purpose!
Through evolution, they still maybe billions of years from perfecting. Orks were created by the brain boyz, perfected for war and ultra-violence so much so we fight each other just to fight.
Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Beat that unit in combat
Unit of purifiers with cleansing flame with a xenos inquisitor with rad and psychotroke grenades.
Deadshot wrote:I still thimk as an Army,nids are the best.They don't train for it,they are made for it,designed for it,born for the very purpose!
Through evolution, they still maybe billions of years from perfecting. Orks were created by the brain boyz, perfected for war and ultra-violence so much so we fight each other just to fight.
Ther whole point of nids is they can evolve in days,through the Norn Queen.They spawn and evolve to tackle the prey in question.
"But Wait, Anidem, arent the dark eldar know for their units falling over to a stiff breeze?"
Yes, thats because Dark Eldar Are Too Fething Good at Killing.
Take for instance, Incubi:
we have an elite unit that has all power-weapons standard, and can get Furious Charge. Its pretty standard as far as elites go.
However this unit also gets a base increase to 4 STR (makes it really easy to wound MEQ, and more of a danger to TEQ) They get an ability that gives them an extra swing for ANY/ALL of their 2-3 (3-4 on a charge) attacks for any attack that rolls a natural 6 to hit after re-rolls. for a 10 man squad, thats a potential of 21 (klavex gets +1 atk) to 42 power-weapon attacks at a potential of STR 5 INT 6.
More often than not, Dark Eldar players take Incubi in squads of 4 and run them with an IC so they dont outright slaughter whatever unit they charge, and get gunned down in the next shooting phase.
Moving away from Incubi, we move to Heamy Covens, and Heamy Bosted Wyches.
In both cases, or can have 3-6 CC orientated units with FNP starting off, and a charge range of ~24 inches (cruise, open topped, fleet, charge).
3 Wych squads assaulting out of raiders with pain tokens, you are already dealing with Poisoned powerweapons (Agonisers), Instant Pens (Haywire Grenades), Increased number of attacks, Less enemy swings back, all striking at INT 6. However, given that all are striking at STR 3, and only one has a poisoned power weapon you are only looking at a threat to GEQ and MEQ. However if these same wyches got a 6 on combat drugs (w00t two pain tokens!), you are now looking at 3 FNP, FCMEQ Slaughterers in a charge on turn one!
Now we turn to pure Heamy Covens,
Wracks become troops with a Heamy HQ (either one) and come with a 4+ poison cc attack, but only at INT4. 4 T with FNP right off the bat, (and furious charge too if they take the haemy's pain token) and they have access to wargear that can ID Any Model, or Neutralize IC in CC.
I have never personally used Grotesques, Hellions, or either Pain Engine, so i cant offer any argument for them.
Me 5 purifiers (halberts) vs broodlord and 30 termagonts or homo......
cleansing fire kills 10 halberts kill 4 more. rest kills 3 purifers. he lose and 10 more die from fearless.
5 purifers vs 20 genestealers.
cleansing fire kills 7 genestealers. Then kills 3 in combat. stealers kills all purifers.
This is if the stealers don't get shot at first and somehow my rhino is wrecked. So in real combat the stealers would have taken some death from shooting.
And my crowe is designed for taking on 30 genestealers. cleansing fire kills 10 and then with reroll armour saves, try to keep alive.
ALSO ORKS ORKS ORKS. a mob of 30 orks can take on anything.
snake wrote:Which codex provides the best assault army? The one the best at getting into combat quickly and just ripping things to shreds when there?
There is no single "best" army at this. Just about every army can do that to some extent except for small minority. Most can often get turn 1 charges if going 2nd, turn 2 charges if going 1st. In terms of killyness, there's a wide array of killynes, some things are very good against certain targets and awful at others (e.g. dropping Banshees into an Ork Mob is a bad idea, throwing an Ork Mob against a Furioso Dread with Blood Talons is likewise a bad idea).
TL;DR, just about any army but Imperial Guard, Necrons or Tau will get you what you want.
A Khorne Bezerker filled CSM list with 2 khorne lords, A tonne of Khorne terminators, a few cc dreads or defilers, and let the blood flow.
30 orks are nothing to a fully-equipped, fully-manned Bezerker squad led by A Khorne lord with Daemon weapon. I speak with multiple cases of experience behind me on that one. Seriously.
Dark Apostle 666 wrote:A Khorne Bezerker filled CSM list with 2 khorne lords, A tonne of Khorne terminators, a few cc dreads or defilers, and let the blood flow.
30 orks are nothing to a fully-equipped, fully-manned Bezerker squad led by A Khorne lord with Daemon weapon. I speak with multiple cases of experience behind me on that one. Seriously.
Then send 60 Orks.
Which are actually a little less expensive than your Berserker squad if I recall the points cost right right.
Dark Apostle 666 wrote:A Khorne Bezerker filled CSM list with 2 khorne lords, A tonne of Khorne terminators, a few cc dreads or defilers, and let the blood flow.
30 orks are nothing to a fully-equipped, fully-manned Bezerker squad led by A Khorne lord with Daemon weapon. I speak with multiple cases of experience behind me on that one. Seriously.
Then said 60 Orks.
Which are actually a little less expensive than your Berserker squad if I recall the points cost right right.
yea... for the points its hard to beat a nob and his 30 wound / only doing dmg on the charge group... still 30 orks/ nob/pk on the charge is pretty hard to beat for the points unless it is comethign liek a furioso dred... but that's what lootas / deffrollas are for .. D6str 10 hits ... oh you want to DoG av 14 sure... D6 mroe str 10 hits... and with lootas eno-ugh str 7 shots is gonna eventually take it out
IMHO, Orkz and Nids are the best armies if we're talking pure CC. Both have the advantage of Hording. Orkz have Dreads and nida have their Tyranids. Both armies have HQs that are beasts in CC. However, Orkz are my favorite
Now I've heard a lot of good things about Khorne armies, but I haven't seen one in action. Still, Kharn sounds like a real monster in CC.
I say Tyranids. I don't care about all this math in a vacuum. If the Purifiers are in cover, then so are the bugs. Why is the only objective both sides need to get in cover the purifiers are already in? The bugs can sit on an objective in cover and go to ground every turn with a 3+ save.
With infiltrating Genestealers and pop out of nowhere Ymgarls, the Bugs are probably at the objective first in most cases.
Poisoned hormagants and Genestealers are nasty. Tyrants can make the Genestealers initiative 7 on the charge. If you've got Psychotrope grenades, then the bugs have Paroxym. If you have cleansing flame then the Bugs have Shadow in the Warp.
The Grey Knights can put together a really expensive unit that can kill deathstars on the charge. The Bugs, all they do is assault and it doesn't take many of them to inflict catastophic casualties on a 35 model GK army.
Here is the biggest problem for Grey Knights. To be effective virtually every trick they have has to work on the first turn of assault or they lose. For the bugs they can throw away units and wait for that one time all the GK tricks don't work.
That's why Bugs are the overall best in Close Combat.
Ok kinda sad only 1 person said it other then me, but Black Templars are by far on par with being one of the best close combat armies in the game. Of course you have to build the army right and know how to play it but it is very nasty when executed correctly.
Who ever gets the charge will kill one another however, tyranids wound orks on 5 and 6. which is worse than what orks can do.
tyranids win on initialtive of 5. but orks win on WS of 4 and T of 4 and more attacks.
If no one gets the charge, no nob, no rending claw nothing, to make this fair because both are 6 points each.
60 attacks from Tyranids.
30 hit.
10 wound.
9 dead orks.
so 21 orks left, 3 attacks each.
63 attacks.
42 hit.
21 wound.
18 death hormagaunt
fearless roll, kills 8 more hormagaunt.
SO now its 21 orks vs 4 hormagaunt. ORK WIN
hormagaunt get charge and make the boys shoota boys.
90 attacks
45 hit
15 wound
13 dead ork
17 orks
34 attacks
23 hit
12 wound
10 dead hormagaunt
fearless roll, 3 more dead ork.
OK, if hormagaunt get charge and ork boys are shoota boys then they might win. but since they are shoota boys, they probably killed most of the hormagaunt before they charged.
And we shall not do orks on the charge because there is no point doing the math because they win.
Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Beat that unit in combat
Pretty sure I did beat that unit in an Ard Boys game. Of course I didn't fight them, I gunned them down with bladestorming Dire Avengers before they got there. Maybe that seems unfair? This is how Eldar deal with lightly armored hordes
Tzeentchling9 wrote:Grey Knights currently can provide the best CC army with Purifier Spam.
You've got high armor? Cool, we have forceweapons, will get +1S and, if we pay for it, we're going first.
You're a Horde? Good thing we have a "F*%& your horde" Psychic power.
Monstrous Creature/multi-wounds? Forceweapons HO!
Not to mention that 4 units can have "Screw your army" grenades and an additional +1S Psychic Power(Take a Xenos Inq and 3 Techmarines with Rad and Suckotrok grenades).
Not to mention the Purifier squads shooting you to pieces before you even get close to them.
Not to mention fire support from underpriced and unshakable/unstunable Psyfilemens and S6 Razorbacks.
Sure a couple tailored army lists might be a hard counter to Purifiers, but that's not enough.
I agree with this. Between rads and psyotrok, most HtH units are mauled by the right result. I had a friend at wargamescon lose his Bloodcrusher deathstar due to those grenades. My GK terminators wiped out a Nob biker squad, then ghazkull, then a snikrot squad (with a warboss on bike) due to rads and psyotrokes. It was not even paladins just reg GK terminators.
I would say the HtH killing power of GK is optimized between DCA, Crusaders, Libby, and a techmarine with grenades.
I believe every army has their own right in close-combat and every army has their own nasty combat units within their Codex. The only exception with this maybe Tau who doesn't have any dedicated close-combat units, save for Kroots. And Kroots honestly aren't premium units in terms of close-combat.
Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Beat that unit in combat
Furioso dreadnought with blood talons. I'll grant you that it will take a while but:
-FA13. Your genestealers won't be doing anything except on rending rolls and even on the additional D3 it's only a 1/3 chance of a glancing hit.
-Blood Talons are designed for use against hordes, every unsaved wound immediately grants an additional attack.
-No leadership value, therefore the psychic attack does nothing.
-Heavy Flamer during shooting phase will definitely hurt.
-I can get away with 2 of them for a good deal less than your brood.
Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Beat that unit in combat
I don't have to beat it in combat. I'll see your 300+ point unit and raise you 30 Kaballite Warriors. AP5 says hello.
Or even 30 Wyches. Heh.
The problem with talking about nasty close combat units in a vacuum is not considering the battlefield.
Those 30 genestealers have a Broodlord, so will likely be outflanking. A smart player isn'g going to deploy them near a Blood Talon dreadnought, nor is he going to deploy them where Kabalite warriors can shoot them to pieces.
That said, 30 genestealers is dumb, because most of those won't be partidicating in combat and make the squad footprint so big cover will be practically impossible to get. However, 15-20 genestealers with a broodlord will absolutely maul any infantry unit they touch. The key is getting them to touch the right unit.
-Loki- wrote:The problem with talking about nasty close combat units in a vacuum is not considering the battlefield.
Those 30 genestealers have a Broodlord, so will likely be outflanking. A smart player isn'g going to deploy them near a Blood Talon dreadnought, nor is he going to deploy them where Kabalite warriors can shoot them to pieces.
That said, 30 genestealers is dumb, because most of those won't be partidicating in combat and make the squad footprint so big cover will be practically impossible to get. However, 15-20 genestealers with a broodlord will absolutely maul any infantry unit they touch. The key is getting them to touch the right unit.
Granted, but he was referring to that unit in a vacuum, specifically in regards to CC, so I simply responded in kind.
Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.
Beat that unit in combat
Pretty sure I did beat that unit in an Ard Boys game. Of course I didn't fight them, I gunned them down with bladestorming Dire Avengers before they got there. Maybe that seems unfair? This is how Eldar deal with lightly armored hordes
They can use up a troops slot for a few modals.Perfect if you want lots of HS/Elites/FA.Astorath and 2 squads of 3 are great for annihilation.Put in lots of stuff designed to kill the opponent.
Blackmaned Grey Hunters (up to 3 packs) = very tough to deal with... especially if you have mark of wulfen and a PF +Wolf Guard Frost blade in each pack
On average that's 30 I5, S5 attacks, plus 4 I5 S7 PW hits, + 3 I1 S9 attacks per pack in one turn and for one pack every charge (all wrapped in PowerArmour to boot)! Not to mention the stupid steam roller Ragnar can become against a horde army
