Hi all. Just wandered if any of you had seen the news this morning/last night? Those riots looked pretty shocking, hope all of you London Dakkites are ok?
Any of you live in the area? If so what's the atmosphere like around there this morning?
Sorry for all the questions but it's not something that happens all the time (thank 'insert diety of choice').
Scurrilous speculation on my part, but I suspect that the original protest was subsequently used by the usual suspects as an excuse for a night of mindless violence.
I have now moved from london for a holiday but i could smell smoke before I left ... god I wish I was there, like the student protests it could have been fun
Oski Bugmansson wrote:I have now moved from london for a holiday but i could smell smoke before I left ... god I wish I was there, like the student protests it could have been fun
Fun? For real?! My god, if your idea of fun is a casual night burning Police cars and people's livelihoods, then I think I want to stay on your good side!
Seriously thou, did anyone actually witness any of this? It's just I do have mates in the general area (well, Camden), so I just wanted to make sure that peeps were ok.....
And is anyone reminded about Blackheath? Ok, it's not as bad but still, a bunch of fething idiots with nothing better to do than to cause a large amount of s**t..... Sometimes I hate being English.
Oski Bugmansson wrote:I have now moved from london for a holiday but i could smell smoke before I left ... god I wish I was there, like the student protests it could have been fun
Really? Or are you just trolling? Because if you're not that's just wrong.
Well allegedly, taking what limited info we have until the IPCC finish their investigation, this was caused because some muppet thought carrying a illegal firearm around in London was a good idea, and then fired on armed Police when they came to arrest him.
Obviously all allegedly at this point, but if thats accurate, well, I have little sympathy for the man.
Just feel sorry for all those who have lost all their stuff, because folks hoisted a 'Looting' flag and decided to wreck some other peoples lives for freebies.
Oh I am sure it is as simple as the kind hearted police shooting an evil man that lead to the riots, but what if we suppose that it is more complicated than that? People rarely riot because of one incident, but a series of incidents until there frustration erupts into violence. I suppose you are all right, just a bunch of uppity coloreds and foreigners that just have a distaste for law and order.
I don't care what race he was to be honest Ahtman, if he shoots at an Officer, and until more news comes forward, that seems to be the case, well, I have no sympathy for him.
I had no sympathy for that fella who got killed while drunk brandishing a weapon at home either. He was a white barrister in a rich area of London.
If you don't want to die, don't draw a weapon when you are being challenged by armed Police Officers, pretty simple really.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:If you don't want to die, don't draw a weapon when you are being challenged by armed Police Officers, pretty simple really.
Or go on the underground during an undercover police operation when one of the officers is taking a leak and subsequently loses track of his real target meaning you get picked out instead and have the firearms squad sent after you who, lacking any clear information on what's going on, decide to shoot you to be on the safe side.
Same here, but we aren't talking about that. I'm also sickened by the whole Stephen Lawrence situation, and hopefully people will finally get to face Justice for that.
Like I have said in all my posts, my point of view is based on information we have to hand, if the IPCC comes out and he was gunned down in cold blood, I'll be up there calling for those coppers to face a trial with everyone else, however at this moment it seems he brought it on himself.
Yes, fair play. Rightly or wrongly, whenever someone gets shot by the Met, I'm reminded of the incident. In this case, it probably did take place as they've described it.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:If you don't want to die, don't draw a weapon when you are being challenged by armed Police Officers, pretty simple really.
Or go on the underground during an undercover police operation when one of the officers is taking a leak and subsequently loses track of his real target meaning you get picked out instead and have the firearms squad sent after you who, lacking any clear information on what's going on, decide to shoot you to be on the safe side.
Accident or not, that still sickens me.
He shot first...
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Flashman wrote:
Oski Bugmansson wrote:I have now moved from london for a holiday but i could smell smoke before I left ... god I wish I was there, like the student protests it could have been fun
Let me be the first to say... o.O
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Fun? For real?! My god, if your idea of fun is a casual night burning Police cars and people's livelihoods, then I think I want to stay on your good side!
Seriously thou, did anyone actually witness any of this? It's just I do have mates in the general area (well, Camden), so I just wanted to make sure that peeps were ok.....
And is anyone reminded about Blackheath? Ok, it's not as bad but still, a bunch of fething idiots with nothing better to do than to cause a large amount of s**t..... Sometimes I hate being English.
blood reaper wrote:
Oski Bugmansson wrote:I have now moved from london for a holiday but i could smell smoke before I left ... god I wish I was there, like the student protests it could have been fun
Really? Or are you just trolling? Because if you're not that's just wrong.
1) ok it wouldnt have been "fun" but it would have been interesting... I may have expressed it wrong but it is enjoyable to get involved with the mood and have the feeling of being in the thick of a historical event. I would never loot!!! For christ's sake
2) I was at the student protests ok, but I was protesting, not looting or fighting
Not sure why a wanted man would open fire against a police marksman squad; something doesn't seem right even for a criminal. Unless he wanted to die right then and there.
As for the area this article shed some light on why there was unrest especially after the killing:
There was "obviously a lot of anger" following Mr Duggan's death but tensions had been breeding for a while, he said.
Haringey has one of London's highest official unemployment rates at 8.8 per cent.
There is just one vacancy for every 54 jobseeker for every job in the borough.
Mr Flett said there were problems with gun crime and knife crime but the borough was also suffering from a brutal economy and cuts to public services.
Just last week it lost eight of its 13 youth clubs to the Con-Dem cuts.
Local teenagers told reporters that the closures would fuel gang violence and rioting, Mr Flett said.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I don't care what race he was to be honest Ahtman, if he shoots at an Officer, and until more news comes forward, that seems to be the case, well, I have no sympathy for him.
That is fantastic and all, but he, being dead, didn't start the riot, but the incident seems to be the trigger for that community erupting in rage. It is only relevant in as such because of that. You seem to be focusing on the inciting indecent and not on the riot, or the actual causes of said riot, which I would bet is far more than just this shooting. There would need to be a serious sense of discontent and oppression, much like there riots in France a few years ago, for people to act in this way.
Albatross wrote:Whitey holding them down, I expect...
I like the way one of the "bluds" said
"they dont even come here man, they think we are like animals"
Yes, because you smash the city up and act like fething animals.
Not only am I glad they shot the no good fether, I want them to hose the rioters down as well. They wont be the type of people who will add anything to our society, so id more than happy for them all to be butchered like dogs.
But alas, they wont, the cops will have to treat them all like kid gloves and they will go on their merry ways. Free to leech off wellfare and have 12 kids each who all do the same.
Karon wrote:You know, I wonder why we never have any Riots in the US, I hear of them all the time in the UK, but never in the USA.
We have the occasional riot in the U.S., there just not as frequent here because most American citizens are far to apathetic when in comes to politics/causes..etc, and would much rather just let " business as usual" go on rather than miss an episode of Jersey Shore or put their video game controllers down.
....Plus, American Police are probably much more likely to " use deadly force" if you throw rocks at them...
Karon wrote:You know, I wonder why we never have any Riots in the US, I hear of them all the time in the UK, but never in the USA.
We have the occasional riot in the U.S., there just not as frequent here because most American citizens are far to apathetic when in comes to politics/causes..etc, and would much rather just let " business as usual" go on rather than miss an episode of Jersey Shore or put their video game controllers down.
....Plus, American Police are probably much more likely to " use deadly force" if you throw rocks at them...
I must admit the thing that makes me laugh most about this is the fuss being made about it when a bout two weeks ago there was significant rioting in Belfast (suprise!) and bearly a mention.
The most noteworthy element of the Tottenham situation was the lack of Horse and Baton charges. Clearly the Met have cut funding to these most entertaining parts of their budget.
Watched an interview with the deputy mayor of London on BBC news this morning. He conveyed a suitable air of outrage at the events. To be honest, judging by the media coverage and the information that has come to light thus far, it seems most of the riots were sparked by people who fancied a little bit of mischief making and the opportunity to steal themselves a new TV. Rioting is good cover for a spot of looting.
filbert wrote:Watched an interview with the deputy mayor of London on BBC news this morning. He conveyed a suitable air of outrage at the events. To be honest, judging by the media coverage and the information that has come to light thus far, it seems most of the riots were sparked by people who fancied a little bit of mischief making and the opportunity to steal themselves a new TV. Rioting is good cover for a spot of looting.
Too true....
And we now have some copy-cat looting going on in other parts of london :( I guess some of the kids didn't get the memo from Tottenham and felt a bit left out.
Still, it's in London. That place needs burning to the ground anyway
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Well allegedly, taking what limited info we have until the IPCC finish their investigation, this was caused because some muppet thought carrying a illegal firearm around in London was a good idea, and then fired on armed Police when they came to arrest him.
Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet,
So in fact it seems the Police opened fire first, hitting other Police officers, who in turn return fire and kill the suspect.
If, IF, this is the case then it's a big WHOOPS moment for the Police.
Not that this really excuses the subsequent behaviour that followed.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Well allegedly, taking what limited info we have until the IPCC finish their investigation, this was caused because some muppet thought carrying a illegal firearm around in London was a good idea, and then fired on armed Police when they came to arrest him.
Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet,
So in fact it seems the Police opened fire first, hitting other Police officers, who in turn return fire and kill the suspect.
Wait, did you get that quote from the Metro this morning? Because the quote is worded in exactly the same way as in the article I read, and I don't recall it suggesting that the police fired first, though admittedly I read it at 5.15am this morning...
In any case, I don't think we should be be over-quick to jump on the police until we have all the facts. Which we don't. I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that, just because he was black, and was shot by police officers, that Mr. Duggan was completely innocent of any wrongdoing. By the same token, implying that he probably 'had it coming' because he was black and shot by the police is also premature, as well as ignorant.
As for the rioters? Scum. Cavalry charges followed by tear gas and hoses. Anyone still on the scene gets a free ride in the party van.
I'm not saying he was innocent as such, reports are suggesting/saying that another, illegal or "non police issue"l, firearm was indeed removed from the scene, which would lead one to assume that they did at least identify the correct suspect.
.. it was just the actual operation went,badly, wrong, if and I say again, IF, this report is true.
I feel reasonably certain that if the police had intended to simply execute him/similar then their plan would be unlikely to involve shooting a colleague first of all. At least one would hope so.
Quote was from... The Guardian ? .. I think originally. reports still seem a bit confused.
Which is both understandable given events and, alas, worryingly familiar.
@reds8n - Aye, seen the reports on that this morning, so maybe the Police will have something to answer for, it still might come out he drew his weapon and aimed just before the shooting started.
Of course whatever the outcome, it still won't excuse him for carrying said illegal firearm that led to his attempted arrest, but aye, could cause more issues for the Police in the area.
The Looting is my bigger bugbear however, some of the stuff that has appeared on the news this morning shows it was much more about 'nicking stuff' than overal issues with Police and problems in the area.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:The Looting is my bigger bugbear however, some of the stuff that has appeared on the news this morning shows it was much more about 'nicking stuff' than overal issues with Police and problems in the area.
That's how it happens. People taking advantage of the situation, but not really protesting. Hell, I doubt a good deal of the people looting don't know crap (or even care) about what started the whole mess in the first place.
The "Rodney King" LA riots were an example of that.
The Cedar Grove riots in Shreveport, LA in 1988 are another example of that. The shooting happened 3 blocks from my house, and some of the businesses burned down were just a few streets over. My dad and our neighbors were loaded for bear. Nothing happened on our block. Most of the rioters were people looking for free stuff (Liquir stores and clothes stores).
reds8n wrote: I'm not saying he was innocent as such, reports are suggesting/saying that another, illegal or "non police issue"l, firearm was indeed removed from the scene, which would lead one to assume that they did at least identify the correct suspect.
.. it was just the actual operation went,badly, wrong, if and I say again, IF, this report is true.
Sounds like a messy situation. I'm hoping you guys find out more in the next few days and the rioters knock that stuff off.
Dont know if anyone is still following the riots as they progress, but you heard it here first folks:
i am at work right now and need to get the bus home (dont drive as of yet) and have just been told Barnet High Street (where i need to get the bus from) is awash with Police and all the shops have been closed (and barricaded from the inside apparently in some cases).
O goody, looks like im not getting home tonight then
So it seems Looter fever has hit London, as I didn't spot last night they hit several places including Enfield, Walthamstow and Brixton (which is south London.) According to folks on other forums, Twitter and the like bragging about it, more places are being targetted tonight.
A twitter not long ago from Diane Abbot MP suggests that its 'Kicking off in Hackney" so London seems to be having serious issue at the moment.
Rumoured targets for tonight include Oxford street, Covent garden, Southgate, Palmers green, Wood green, Barnet, Finchley, Hackney and Dalston.
Just confirming Barnet, my sister was stupid enough to try and walk down the High Street (need to teach her some things honestly) and its all closed and shut down. The worrying thing, the Police didnt seem to know what they are doing.
I've also heard rumours it is kicking off in Watford and Birmingham, but i have nothing to base that on, just overhearing rumours (ie large pinch of salt needed).
But yeah, its all kicking off....
EDIT: one funny thing, i was told that i shouldnt go near the High Street (by my mum) to even try to egt the bus because (and i quote) "You are more likely to get drawn into it than your sister"....what the hell?! I.am.not.a.looter! Thanks mum.
Revenent Reiko wrote:EDIT: one funny thing, i was told that i shouldnt go near the High Street (by my mum) to even try to egt the bus because (and i quote) "You are more likely to get drawn into it than your sister"....what the hell?! I.am.not.a.looter!
Thanks mum.
She probably just means you're more likely to be attacked by someone looking for a fight because you're a white dude.
Oh mothers and their caring for their children.
Just tell your sister to stay home and lock the doors. Keep your head down, reiko. These rumors reek of gossip and panic spreading, real or imagined.
Revenent Reiko wrote:EDIT: one funny thing, i was told that i shouldnt go near the High Street (by my mum) to even try to egt the bus because (and i quote) "You are more likely to get drawn into it than your sister"....what the hell?! I.am.not.a.looter! Thanks mum.
She probably just means you're more likely to be attacked by someone looking for a fight because you're a white dude.
Yeah i know, was only teasing, i do seem to attract trouble though, o dear.
Oh mothers and their caring for their children.
Just tell your sister to stay home and lock the doors. Keep your head down, reiko. Stay safe, guys!
Done and done, and thank you.
These rumors reek of gossip and panic spreading, real or imagined.
Unfortunately, its being confirmed as we speak, police have been attacked in Lewisham, so it is starting again. However, i do take everything with a pinch of salt, especially if the warnings are coming from Twitter of all places. Heres hoping you are right and nothing happens (please let nothing happen).
Maybe the cops should put down the sticks, pick up shotguns and deal with the situation. Alternatively, as this is Britain, you have cavalry and there are swords laying about. Time for Cossack Re-enactment Day?
Regardless, its best to nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure..
It always strikes me as funny that the people who advocate "cleansing" type operations have neither lived through, nor been to places that have experienced, "cleansing" operations. Especially when those same people often laud the experience as important to determining the true value of things.
dogma wrote:It always strikes me as funny that the people who advocate "cleansing" type operations have neither lived through, nor been to places that have experienced, "cleansing" operations. Especially when those same people often laud the experience as important to determining the true value of things.
It always strikes me as funny when people mistake jokes for serious comments.
No worries Reiko, I'm at work and have BBC iplayer running the feed. I'm pretty much sitting here with a 'what the feth' face myself as this carries on.
Also it seems the rioters have control of an estate in Hackney, have blocked off the streets with barricades.
Frazzled wrote:Alternatively, London could summon Gozor the Traveller to deal with the looters. That might not end well.
He's been in charge of London transport policy for several years now. If you trace the ring roads they form arcance glyphs and sigils.
.. somewhat bemused by the gentleman being interviewed by the BBC who claimed that the police couldn't chase after looters and rioters as " they're wearing trainers whereas the Police are wearing heavy boots."
..dashed unsporting.
Bet the CCTV guys wil be very busy in the next few days, and I figure the phone companies will be handing over a lot of records too.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:No worries Reiko, I'm at work and have BBC iplayer running the feed. I'm pretty much sitting here with a 'what the feth' face myself as this carries on.
Lucky, apparently the NHS doesnt like the BBC because i wasnt allowed to watch it
Thats also the face i had since i got the warning about Barnet being closed. It hasnt left my face yet...
Also it seems the rioters have control of an estate in Hackney, have blocked off the streets with barricades.
MrH wrote:Just bring out the tanks and wipe them all off the face of the planet.
Nope. Bring out the population. Get them marching, right at the rioting scum. Show them a community united, a community uncowed by their antisocial behaviour. Not only would this be a slap in the face to the rioters, but you might also see an overall reduction in gang culture, as they discover that a community united, and just wanting a peaceful existence is one of the most powerful forces on this earth.
One of my friends lives in London now and she is hating every moment of this...
Before riots:
During Riots:
After Riots:
she described it as thus: "Single scariest moment of my life. Getting caught in Hackney riots. It's happening all over the city. Excuse my language, but London is going to gak. I want out of this city for the next few weeks"
Mr Mystery wrote:Nope. Bring out the population. Get them marching, right at the rioting scum. Show them a community united, a community uncowed by their antisocial behaviour. Not only would this be a slap in the face to the rioters, but you might also see an overall reduction in gang culture, as they discover that a community united, and just wanting a peaceful existence is one of the most powerful forces on this earth.
Just a shame the majority of "I just want to get on with my life" people are not united in this way.
MrH wrote:Just bring out the tanks and wipe them all off the face of the planet.
Nope. Bring out the population. Get them marching, right at the rioting scum. Show them a community united, a community uncowed by their antisocial behaviour. Not only would this be a slap in the face to the rioters, but you might also see an overall reduction in gang culture, as they discover that a community united, and just wanting a peaceful existence is one of the most powerful forces on this earth.
Give them whippy sticks. I know if 1) I were in Britain; 2) the Queen offered me two of the new forgeworld preheresy dreadnoughts and five squads of preheresy marines to stop this, that this looting would end in 24 hours. Once more unto the breech, dear friends!
Its not pathetic. Its free enterprise. They are just liberating needed items from THE MAN. now if THE MAN declared martial law and started shooting looters like you would after any natural distaster, this would end.
Or, if you want to get hard core drop 1,500 lbs of beef, and release 5,000 wiener dogs. Then there will be a reckoning!
Ah gotcha, yeah here in the UK, an estate is a housing area. Out of the big cities it'll be similar to american suburbs, with lots of houses, gardens with a few connecting streets.
In London the larger tower blocks are also common, with loads of flats. It can mean either.
The Croydon's fire is huge, multiple shops gone by the looks of it, with additional fires in the area.
Nightmare, due to problems getting firecrews in, the Croydon fire is out of control, and its raging so hard its caught the opposite side of the street on fire.
Albatross wrote:Frazzled, your jokes aren't even remotely helping. Stop being a dick.
I think they are. You either fight, run, or make fun of it. You can't run. Its not politically correct to fight (even though it works excellently for dictatorships) so you might as well make fun of it.
I particularly like the counter rioters, but then started to think about it. Why aren't your soccer hooligans fighting back? Get your neighbors together and protect your neighborhoods people.
Frazzled wrote:Its not pathetic. Its free enterprise. They are just liberating needed items from THE MAN. now if THE MAN declared martial law and started shooting looters like you would after any natural distaster, this would end.
Would? Martial law wasn't declared after Katrina, or after Deepwater Horzion, or after the Texas wildfires, or after the Mississippi flooded in '94, or after Andrew, or after any other American, or Western, natural disaster I can recall.
MrH wrote:Just bring out the tanks and wipe them all off the face of the planet.
Nope. Bring out the population. Get them marching, right at the rioting scum. Show them a community united, a community uncowed by their antisocial behaviour. Not only would this be a slap in the face to the rioters, but you might also see an overall reduction in gang culture, as they discover that a community united, and just wanting a peaceful existence is one of the most powerful forces on this earth.
Why should "the population" do this? How about, instead, the community appoints a few people to act as their voice and put down riots like this. They could be entrusted to keep the peace, and be given greater authority than the regular population to suppress and detain people who act out.
If those don't work, you could have another group who are given even wider authority to suppress and detain people who are acting against the interests of the population. Maybe give them better weapons and superior training and the authority to go to foreign nations when the interests of the population are threatened as well.
Then, you don't have the organizational issue of getting people interested and marching, all you have to do is command these select groups to take care of the problem.
You could call them "police" and "military", but that's just a suggestion.
Albatross wrote:Frazzled, your jokes aren't even remotely helping. Stop being a dick.
They also aren't funny. So unfunny that they are difficult to legitimately process as jokes.
Frazzled wrote:
I think they are. You either fight, run, or make fun of it.
Or ignore it. Or commit suicide.
Frazzled wrote:
You can't run. Its not politically correct to fight (even though it works excellently for dictatorships) so you might as well make fun of it.
Indeed it does often work well for dictatorships. However, they have the advantage of dictatorial control. Shooting one person caused a riot, shooting many will cause more, and those soldiers you depend on for shooting people often don't like shooting their peers who, statistically, are likely to riot.
Dictatorships are not like democracies, and even dictatorships have to confront the fact that shooting people is problematic without a significant social barrier between the armed services and civilians.
Frazzled wrote:Its not pathetic. Its free enterprise. They are just liberating needed items from THE MAN. now if THE MAN declared martial law and started shooting looters like you would after any natural distaster, this would end.
Would? Martial law wasn't declared after Katrina, or after Deepwater Horzion, or after the Texas wildfires, or after the Mississippi flooded in '94, or after Andrew, or after any other American, or Western, natural disaster I can recall.
Its always fun when you don't know what you're talking about. I will only speak of personal experience.
Funny I missed the National Guard convention after Katrina. I guess thousands of dudes just showed up in uniform and managed to get a hold of aircraft and M16s. Talk about excellent re-enactors. You must not have paid attention to the boobtube much.
IKE had the city in full lock down with police announcement made by the mayor and county judge that looters would be shot on sight. We also didn't have riots. Our neighborhood had guys at the entrance and exit for a week.
Back in the day, police were out after Alicia as well, with the same statement.
Fires. I don't think anyone is looting during the wildfires. They are too busy trying to get the hell out of there. I've driven through two. Its weird driving through smoke and burning trees (I have). Its like out of a movie.
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whatwhat wrote:somebody please drop a nuke on texas so I can make a joke about frazzled and his family.
Pah we are prepared for you insolence. Wiener Dog command is ready.
The National Guard showing up to help with a flood isn't remotely the same thing as declaring, and enforcing, Martial Law. They go to a of disaster areas (one might think it was something they do) and almost never have been involved in Martial Law.
Frazzled wrote:
Funny I missed the National Guard convention after Katrina. I guess thousands of dudes just showed up in uniform and managed to get a hold of aircraft and M16s. Talk about excellent re-enactors. You must not have paid attention to the boobtube much.
But martial law was not declared. There is a distinction between deploying the National Guard and declaring martial law.
Frazzled wrote:
IKE had the city in full lock down with police announcement made by the mayor and county judge that looters would be shot on sight. We also didn't have riots. Our neighborhood had guys at the entrance and exit for a week.
A mayor can declare martial law in the United States? I was unaware that US cities had command of the military.
Also, no looters?
Right.
Frazzled wrote:
Back in the day, police were out after Alicia as well, with the same statement.
Police are not military.
Frazzled wrote:
Fires. I don't think anyone is looting during the wildfires. They are too busy trying to get the hell out of there. I've driven through two. Its weird driving through smoke and burning trees (I have). Its like out of a movie.
You seem to be confusing "martial law" with "looting" and a number of other things.
Its a joke this is going on for as long as this. Its just a massive looting operation. How will the stores be compensated for the lost stock and extensive damage; as well as home owners?
Its cool if they riot against the police and get the "message across" but pulling people out their cars to burn them down and damaging million of pounds worth of property for what? The black guy who was shot was a crack dealer who was one of the founders of the north stars gang in north london, they did us a favour.
Now its everywhere in london....all for what? Most of the people now rioting are just youths wanting to look hard.
Sorry, whether or not martial law is actually declared, if guys in uniforms with assault rifles are clearing the streets of looters, then its the same thing. Semantics are not relevant when they have guns and can shoot you.
Put troops out. Stop the riots.
Put police out with orders to stop the riots at all costs. Stop the riots.
Get your neighbors together to protect your own nieghborhoods.
Mr Hyena wrote:What 'message' requires a riot against the police?
I think it would be about them shooting an unarmed man, who had a replica gun in the trunk of his car(at the time)
Its happen a few times but the one i remember most was back in the day, a man was shot because he had a wooden chair leg in his bag, the police assumed it was a gun and shot him down.
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biccat wrote:
I think you're confusing "protesting" with "rioting". At least, I hope so.
Man, hope you guys in the UK are hanging on alright. This looks (iirc) like one of the bigger riots you guys have had this decade (If not before). Have there been any news from credible authorities about use of military troops to supplement the (apparently inadequate) police on the scene?
The gun was a replica modified to fire real bullets. My farther has been away now for 48 hours, organising some of the riot police, with 3 hours rest. These pathetic fethers better back the hell off.
I think it would be about them shooting an unarmed man, who had a replica gun in the trunk of his car(at the time)
Its happen a few times but the one i remember most was back in the day, a man was shot because he had a wooden chair leg in his bag, the police assumed it was a gun and shot him down.
You'd rather police take the risk and get shot?
You could say its their way of protesting? lol
Its not a protest. Its a bunch of savage animals running amok.
darkPrince010 wrote:Man, hope you guys in the UK are hanging on alright. This looks (iirc) like one of the bigger riots you guys have had this decade (If not before). Have there been any news from credible authorities about use of military troops to supplement the (apparently inadequate) police on the scene?
darkPrince010 wrote:Man, hope you guys in the UK are hanging on alright. This looks (iirc) like one of the bigger riots you guys have had this decade (If not before). Have there been any news from credible authorities about use of military troops to supplement the (apparently inadequate) police on the scene?
None at all. Nor talk of it. There has been a few callers (or tweeters, they read them out on the news here) on the 24 hour news channels calling for it though.
what risk? The guys gun was in his car, and i do not disagree with what they did, im just giving some sort of reason to why its happening, case people are unaware.
darkPrince010 wrote:Man, hope you guys in the UK are hanging on alright. This looks (iirc) like one of the bigger riots you guys have had this decade (If not before).
The UK is bigger than it looks. Most of us are doing fine I was in London today as it happens and didn't see a single flying brick.
Although this is depressing for the people living in the affected areas, don't underestimate the power of the media to make something look bigger than it is. With luck the police will be given permission to go and crack some heads soon and it will get sorted out.
Frazzled wrote:Sorry, whether or not martial law is actually declared, if guys in uniforms with assault rifles are clearing the streets of looters, then its the same thing. Semantics are not relevant when they have guns and can shoot you.
Well I'll be sure to tell the police that, and the members of "militias" that have uniforms.
Its also worth noting that no one has ever cleared an American, or Western, street of looters using an assault rifle. Not even during Hurricane Ike.
Frazzled wrote:
Put troops out. Stop the riots.
Yes, that does work in dictatorships that do not draw soldiers from the general population, but, in Western nation-states, this does not happen.
Frazzled wrote:
Put police out with orders to stop the riots at all costs. Stop the riots.
Get your neighbors together to protect your own nieghborhoods.
If these two coexist, then your neighbors will engage in a fight that they will lose.
Frazzled wrote:
Now I remember why I quit posting here. Carry on.
Wikipedia defines Martial Law as: The imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis—usually only temporary—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread. In most cases, military forces are deployed to quiet the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order. Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions.
Sounds a lot like what happened after Katrina (and to a much lesser extent, Ivan) to me...
Speaking of which, I live in the area hit by Ivan's eye wall and after it was over, the neighborhoods next to ours were the subject of unrest...looting...no riots but lots of violence. What did we do? My neighborhood rallied around the cops who lived in it and the neighborhood watch. Somebody put out a sign in front of the entrance that very clearly stated "Looters will be shot." Hell, one day I heard warning shots...and that was the end of that. Bottom line...when the community stopped playing around, the thugs went home and life went on.
TheFirstBorn wrote:Since when was the gun in the car? Your spewing rumours. No one knows what happened yet, so it's best if you step off that false soap box of yours.
The police report come out some time ago, even on the news, it was in a sock in his car. I think its you who needs to step off?
WARORK93 wrote:Wikipedia defines Martial Law as: The imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis—usually only temporary—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread. In most cases, military forces are deployed to quiet the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order. Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions.
Sounds a lot like what happened after Katrina (and to a much lesser extent, Ivan) to me...
Then you know nothing about what happened after Katrina. There was still a Governor in LA, who had authority, for example.
Didn't read the whole thread but the problems have spread to Birmingham, Lewisham, Croydon and Peckham. London is in a bad way and it's spreading fast. And spare a thought for darkinnit, since he's in London and had a panic saying Croydon was on fire.
This is bad... blasted black kids and middle-easterns. No that's not bias, that's watching live footage and spotting the oh so many blacks and middle-easterns lurking about like "ganstas" covering their faces up.
Juvieus Kaine wrote:Didn't read the whole thread but the problems have spread to Birmingham, Lewisham, Croydon and Peckham. London is in a bad way and it's spreading fast. And spare a thought for darkinnit, since he's in London and had a panic saying Croydon was on fire.
This is bad... blasted black kids and middle-easterns. No that's not bias, that's watching live footage and spotting the oh so many blacks and middle-easterns lurking about like "ganstas" covering their faces up.
My generation sucks
I agree with you there man.
I live in Lewisham and this stuff is happening down the road from me...
dogma wrote:Then you know nothing about what happened after Katrina. There was still a Governor in LA, who had authority, for example.
Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.
So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.
WARORK93 wrote:
Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.
So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.
Yes, it is a matter of semantics, but semantics are not unimportant. It is a matter of Americans confusing "martial law" with "aggressive law enforcement" they are not the same thing. They cannot be the same thing because, if they were, then all state law would be enforced by the presence of military forces operating at the whim of the state.
Not having local authorities in control of situation X does not indicate "martial law."
Martial Law isn't when the National Guard supplement and support local and state authority, it is when they are the only authority. A "State of Emergency" is a different set of circumstances than "Martial Law"; the mere presence of the National Guard isn't enough.
MrH wrote:Just bring out the tanks and wipe them all off the face of the planet.
Nope. Bring out the population. Get them marching, right at the rioting scum. Show them a community united, a community uncowed by their antisocial behaviour. Not only would this be a slap in the face to the rioters, but you might also see an overall reduction in gang culture, as they discover that a community united, and just wanting a peaceful existence is one of the most powerful forces on this earth.
Why should "the population" do this? How about, instead, the community appoints a few people to act as their voice and put down riots like this. They could be entrusted to keep the peace, and be given greater authority than the regular population to suppress and detain people who act out.
If those don't work, you could have another group who are given even wider authority to suppress and detain people who are acting against the interests of the population. Maybe give them better weapons and superior training and the authority to go to foreign nations when the interests of the population are threatened as well.
Then, you don't have the organizational issue of getting people interested and marching, all you have to do is command these select groups to take care of the problem.
You could call them "police" and "military", but that's just a suggestion.
The Police always require the backing of the populace. Simple as.
You do realise you've just made an excellent case for civillians NOT having their own guns yes? After all, if the Police and Army are there, it's their job to stamp out crime yes, whilst you sit in your cosy house and tut at the tellly?
It's bad.. I havent read the whole thread either but to those that have said (if any) that it's not as bad as the media is making out, trust me it is :( i'm in London, right next to Croydon (bout 10 minute drive) .. groups hanging around the high street near mine, police everywhere, just finished work as we had to close early due to people round in the Sutton (where i work) area as well, apparently they've started to attack places round there, which is really worrying because it's right next door to my sisters house and she refused to leave :(
Makes me so angry that kids can act like this, what the hell are they thinking??
Matt070 wrote:Makes me so angry that kids can act like this, what the hell are they thinking??
That they are treated as apart from the political process, targeted by law enforcement, and generally being angry?
Because they give the police reason to target them, personally i dont think they are targeted, only the ones who give the police reason to target them are the ones who are complaining about it. it's just kids having no respect or any idea what harm they are actually doing, going along with the mob because its fun. i know i'm only in my twenties but i cant think of anything that will make me act like this, or the people i know, friends family who are all the same age, maybe it's the way i was bought up, i dont know, these people #9if you can call them that) dont even know why they are doing it, just for a bit of fun and to boast that they were there when it happeed. I can understand them being angry, i'm angry because i've put myself through university twice but it hasn't helped me get anywhere, stuck stacking shelves, so yes be angry but doesnt give an excuse for mindless behaviour. I agree that they should have their voice heard but not like this, after this do they really think they will be taken seriously as having a view? they dont deserve it.
WARORK93 wrote: Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.
So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.
Yes, it is a matter of semantics, but semantics are not unimportant. It is a matter of Americans confusing "martial law" with "aggressive law enforcement" they are not the same thing. They cannot be the same thing because, if they were, then all state law would be enforced by the presence of military forces operating at the whim of the state.
Not having local authorities in control of situation X does not indicate "martial law."
Katrina is a unique case of non-martial law martial law.
The state of Louisiana had no provision for martial law (not sure if they do now), but the state enacted powers under a State of Emergency that provided to police effective denial of typical Miranda rights and other things police typically do when detaining people and stopping looters. That's about as close as they got in Katrina to martial law.
Rioting spread to Clapham and Ealing(sp?). A lot are saying, this is highly organised across twitter and facebook. Typical - social networking creating disorder...
Matt070 wrote:Because they give the police reason to target them
Nothing like a self perpetuating cycle.
Matt070 wrote:personally i dont think they are targeted
And as a minority that grew up in these neighborhoods I'm sure your opinion on how they feel has a lot of weight.
Matt070 wrote:it's just kids having no respect or any idea what harm they are actually doing, going along with the mob because its fun.
This kind of thinking only leads to more riots now and in the future. If you never actually understand the problems that lead to these situations you will have little chance of preventing them again in the future.
Matt070 wrote:they should be heard but not like this, after this do they really think they will be taken seriously as having a view?
I imagine they have been talking for some time and no one has listened. During the 80's and 90's, through music, movies, and writing black and latino communities tried to express problems going on in and around the US and no one payed that much, attention then we got the LA Riots. There are always warning signs, it is just that the middle class is usually to disinterested in change or to busy navel gazing to notice it until the situation reaches a boiling point and then they want to blame the people who feel disenfranchised, leading to further alienation. I have no doubt some people are taking advantage of the situation, but to pretend as if it is that simple shows an alarming, though not surprising, lack of insight.
Matt070 wrote:they dont deserve it.
You thinking you get to decide what others should think they deserve is probably part of the problem.
Frazzle, quit the jokes dude. I'm asking nicely. It's great that you can laugh about it but spare a thought for those of us that have friends in the affected area that haven't been in touch today. feth tard.
I hope this is over soon. Unfortunately I think it will take military presence for this one to cool off - the police aren't respected, "all they'll do is arrest ya blud, we've had that 10 tens already", but a trained service man / woman packing SA80's, aimed at your head will make you think twice when all you have is a brick.
I don't want it to get to that stage though, we're not in the dark ages, diplomacy and common decency should win out. Anyway, back to reality...
There's copy cat rioting spread to Birmingham now (100 miles / 160 km apart). They have no reason to riot - they didn't know the guy that got shot, it wasn't a personal slight against any of them, it's just people taking advantage of a stretched system.
Please don't attach non wargaming images to Dakka. Thanks
Please, for the sake of the rest of the world, don't pull a Doomsday and build a giant wall across your island. That seems like it could go wrong really quickly...
You guys still going to make jokes? What's going going pretty sad and pathetic if you ask me. There's areas of complete lawlessness. Some people are losing everything they have for no reason.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:You guys still going to make jokes? What's going going pretty sad and pathetic if you ask me. There's areas of complete lawlessness. Some people are losing everything they have for no reason.
I blame the hockey fans
On a lighter note... my restaurant is in the middle of Manchester and we were called by our area manager and told to shut the doors and get the hell out of the city about an hour ago :S Didn't see much apart from a massive police presence on the way out.
It makes me really sad we have animals like this in England, it feels more like a war zone ATM. I hope everyone arrested gets the absolute maximum sentence possible.
WARORK93 wrote:
Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.
So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.
Yes, it is a matter of semantics, but semantics are not unimportant. It is a matter of Americans confusing "martial law" with "aggressive law enforcement" they are not the same thing. They cannot be the same thing because, if they were, then all state law would be enforced by the presence of military forces operating at the whim of the state.
Not having local authorities in control of situation X does not indicate "martial law."
Katrina is a unique case of non-martial law martial law.
The state of Louisiana had no provision for martial law (not sure if they do now), but the state enacted powers under a State of Emergency that provided to police effective denial of typical Miranda rights and other things police typically do when detaining people and stopping looters. That's about as close as they got in Katrina to martial law.
Connor McKane wrote:
You even DREAM of dropping a nuke on Texas you better wake up and apologize. There is a reason the last major riot in Texas was in 1917.
Because in Texas everyone has guns!!!
No, because in Texas the only thing more prevalent than guns is selective memory:
I think the most pathetic thing I saw tonight, was a 'brave, mad?' Journalist asking folks why they where doing it while no police where around, and one girl gave the moronic reply, 'I'm getting my taxes back'
I have no words.
Liverpool, now, dang, I know we are all struggling at the moment, I'm not in the best of shape myself, but to decide looting is going to solve all your problems, just crazy.
Jazz is for Losers wrote:Apparently most of the rioters aren't even from Tottenham, they're coming in from other places to smash up the city (mainly Africa).
If that's true, and I mean if, will it be long before the armies called in to fight "an invading force"? No facts to base this on, not circulating rumours, scare tactics or propaganda etc, just a thought...
Azza007 wrote:A police station in Birmingham has now been set on fire. What the hell is wrong with people.
That's all I can think right now, what the hell is wrong with these animals? They're not even human in my eyes.
To me it seems like they're more human. How many animals do you know of that murder, rape and destroy not because they feel threatened or because they're hungry, but just because they can?
These people are simply being ruled by the human mind and emotions; their own minds and emotions, coupled with the fact they're surrounded by likeminded people which only fuels their passion for the acts they commit.
They're not animals, they're just humans who can no longer reason and think for themselves until the act they believe in and feel is righteous, is complete.
WarOne wrote:
Katrina is a unique case of non-martial law martial law.
The state of Louisiana had no provision for martial law (not sure if they do now), but the state enacted powers under a State of Emergency that provided to police effective denial of typical Miranda rights and other things police typically do when detaining people and stopping looters. That's about as close as they got in Katrina to martial law.
I disagree, Katrina was a care of the military doing what it felt was necessary to keep order. It had no necessary legal backing, though the reality is that those folk who opposed it likely had insufficient funds to oppose it legally.
Azza007 wrote:A police station in Birmingham has now been set on fire. What the hell is wrong with people.
That's all I can think right now, what the hell is wrong with these animals? They're not even human in my eyes.
To me it seems like they're more human. How many animals do you know of that murder, rape and destroy not because they feel threatened or because they're hungry, but just because they can?
These people are simply being ruled by the human mind and emotions; their own minds and emotions, coupled with the fact they're surrounded by likeminded people which only fuels their passion for the acts they commit.
They're not animals, they're just humans who can no longer reason and think for themselves until the act they believe in and feel is righteous, is complete.
I guess you've never heard that expression before if you felt the need to right an essay about it.
Azza007 wrote:A police station in Birmingham has now been set on fire. What the hell is wrong with people.
That's all I can think right now, what the hell is wrong with these animals? They're not even human in my eyes.
To me it seems like they're more human. How many animals do you know of that murder, rape and destroy not because they feel threatened or because they're hungry, but just because they can?
These people are simply being ruled by the human mind and emotions; their own minds and emotions, coupled with the fact they're surrounded by likeminded people which only fuels their passion for the acts they commit.
They're not animals, they're just humans who can no longer reason and think for themselves until the act they believe in and feel is righteous, is complete.
I guess you've never heard that expression before if you felt the need to right an essay about it.
I apologise for giving my opinion to the conversation in a way that offended you.
It's in chapeltown which is the other side of town, I never expected it to get this far! (Note, I don't think anything's happened, but 100 kids in a multi cultural area in need of development, how long before the first hit is thrown?)
I apologise for giving my opinion to the conversation in a way that offended you.
Do you wish for me to rephrase my answer?
No need to apologize, and you didn't offend me. I just wanted to point out it's just a saying, I'm not actually comparing them to cats and dogs LOL. My point is a normal human beings don't act like this.
Yeah he came back today I think, though Clegg was walking through (I think) Hackney yesterday talking to residents and shop keepers. Finally, he's given me a reason to be happy about voting for him lol
But is a guy who plans on cutting police numbers in our country really the answer to our problems right now? Why don't the chavs make themselves useful and actually go and get rid of these muppets instead of preying on the innocent.
I spent the day in London and didn't see or hear anything odd, was really suprised to come back and find out how bad it has been in the South East parts of the city!
Crazy stuff. The numbers of arrests made will make it hard for anything major to come of this, I'd imagine- the sheer chaos will make it hard to pin anything solid on any but a few rioters.
The kids aren't scared or respectful of the police at all. Whether that comes from maltreatment at their hands or not, I don't know, but I was harassed by some youths a while ago and the police were fairly lenient with them. (As was I- I felt it was not worth getting them a criminal record over, at such a young age. Perhaps I was wrong).
So whats the issue? According to MSN news the african/caribbean community is mad over police treatment and lack of job opportunities...
So when you have a stereotype of being dumb and violent the best way to get what you want is being dumb and violent? That seems counter productive to attaining your goals.
This isn't particular to the african/caribean community. Certainly not now it has spread to Leeds and Liverpool. This started as a protest at the killing of Mark Duggan on friday which caused a riot on saturday. What has followed is just opportunistic hoodlums who are out to steal what they can in huge numbers. That's it. Any other supposed agenda is bs.
The unemployment idea is the biggest crock of gak. Most of these rioters are teenagers and haven't even left school yet. What do they care about unemployment?
Ravenous D wrote:So whats the issue? According to MSN news the african/caribbean community is mad over police treatment and lack of job opportunities...
So when you have a stereotype of being dumb and violent the best way to get what you want is being dumb and violent? That seems counter productive to attaining your goals.
All this riot is going to do is fuel racism as nearly every single person I've seen looting is colored.
On a more serious note, I’m surprised that it escalated this much. From what I gather, the opportunistic hoodlums were pretty organised with messaged via mobile phone and whatnot.
Our police are weak as ***k. The pictures of them trembling like lambs behind their shield walls is both funny and tragic. They're good at viciously striking peaceful female protesters with batons though, got that eventuality covered.
I must admit the thing that makes me laugh most about this is the fuss being made about it when a bout two weeks ago there was significant rioting in Belfast (suprise!) and bearly a mention.
The most noteworthy element of the Tottenham situation was the lack of Horse and Baton charges. Clearly the Met have cut funding to these most entertaining parts of their budget.
I was well aware of those riots. The LA riots were justified, but rather large.
I was thinking more just small riots out of dickery like because of football.
I must admit the thing that makes me laugh most about this is the fuss being made about it when a bout two weeks ago there was significant rioting in Belfast (suprise!) and bearly a mention.
The most noteworthy element of the Tottenham situation was the lack of Horse and Baton charges. Clearly the Met have cut funding to these most entertaining parts of their budget.
I was well aware of those riots. The LA riots were justified, but rather large.
I was thinking more just small riots out of dickery like because of football.
Really? The LA riots were justified? REALLY? 1 Billion dollars in property damage, 53 people killed and thousands injured is JUSTIFIED?
I must admit the thing that makes me laugh most about this is the fuss being made about it when a bout two weeks ago there was significant rioting in Belfast (suprise!) and bearly a mention.
The most noteworthy element of the Tottenham situation was the lack of Horse and Baton charges. Clearly the Met have cut funding to these most entertaining parts of their budget.
I was well aware of those riots. The LA riots were justified, but rather large.
I was thinking more just small riots out of dickery like because of football.
Really? The LA riots were justified? REALLY? 1 Billion dollars in property damage, 53 people killed and thousands injured is JUSTIFIED?
Yeah, Karon is a hard-bitten black gangsta in a nerdy white kid's body. It's a source of constant amusement.
Connor McKane wrote:
You even DREAM of dropping a nuke on Texas you better wake up and apologize. There is a reason the last major riot in Texas was in 1917.
Because in Texas everyone has guns!!!
No, because in Texas the only thing more prevalent than guns is selective memory:
Unless "major riot" means "Riots which most states have never had."
Dogma.... bless your little heart. Thats just silly... "Prison Inmates rioting?" Thats not even remotely close to what is going on in the UK. Don't you ever get tired of being contrary? And the Pharr riot IS the riot I am talking about (I typed 1917 instead of 1971), and still it isn't the same, because, in the riot: The police? THEY SHOT PEOPLE. Which is what the point of my post was, so thanks for making my argument.
But, I have decided I'll just ignore you, and my Dakka experience will be better for it. Toodle-oo! :
I must admit the thing that makes me laugh most about this is the fuss being made about it when a bout two weeks ago there was significant rioting in Belfast (suprise!) and bearly a mention.
The most noteworthy element of the Tottenham situation was the lack of Horse and Baton charges. Clearly the Met have cut funding to these most entertaining parts of their budget.
I was well aware of those riots. The LA riots were justified, but rather large.
I was thinking more just small riots out of dickery like because of football.
Really? The LA riots were justified? REALLY? 1 Billion dollars in property damage, 53 people killed and thousands injured is JUSTIFIED?
Yeah, Karon is a hard-bitten black gangsta in a nerdy white kid's body. It's a source of constant amusement.
On a serious note, I find all of these riots enough for one to lose faith in humanity. I mean, looting? Come on, how is that going to improve the economy?
Wow, I just picked this up a few hours ago, haven't really been reading the news. Kinda shocking really, I remember a couple "Discussions" people had over food in the stores when a hurricane was about to hit the gulf of mexico a few years ago, but nothing like this.
Its also worth noting that no one has ever cleared an American, or Western, street of looters using an assault rifle. Not even during Hurricane Ike.
What’s happening is there is widespread discontent due to a variety of reasons including racism, unemployment (which affects teenagers who want to get jobs), poverty and deprivation.
The shooting last week was a trigger point.
The rioters are a mixture of generally discontented people and gang members who see a good opportunity to smash some stuff up and loot.
The worrying thing is how the rioters have used communications to organise and spread around the country to attack separate locations at the same time.
I think there will be a crackdown tonight. The government cannot allow the violence to carry on for another night. It makes them look incompetent.
Our police are weak as ***k. The pictures of them trembling like lambs behind their shield walls is both funny and tragic. They're good at viciously striking peaceful female protesters with batons though, got that eventuality covered.
The reason why our police are considered weak as ***k is BECAUSE they can't beat down protesters. These sub-human animals should be slaughtered like the thick cattle they are by the military.
What’s happening is there is widespread discontent due to a variety of reasons including racism, unemployment (which affects teenagers who want to get jobs), poverty and deprivation.
Nothing justifies a riot on this scale. We have unemployment, we have poverty, we have deprivation and there are no riots here. Its just a big looting operation and it has been from the start since that animal got shot.
Our police are weak as ***k. The pictures of them trembling like lambs behind their shield walls is both funny and tragic. They're good at viciously striking peaceful female protesters with batons though, got that eventuality covered.
The reason why our police are considered weak as ***k is BECAUSE they can't beat down protesters. These sub-human animals should be slaughtered like the thick cattle they are by the military.
What’s happening is there is widespread discontent due to a variety of reasons including racism, unemployment (which affects teenagers who want to get jobs), poverty and deprivation.
Nothing justifies a riot on this scale. We have unemployment, we have poverty, we have deprivation and there are no riots here. Its just a big looting operation and it has been from the start since that animal got shot.
Connor McKane wrote:
Dogma.... bless your little heart. Thats just silly... "Prison Inmates rioting?" Thats not even remotely close to what is going on in the UK.
Indeed it is not, at least outside the sense in which people are behaving disorderly.
Connor McKane wrote:
Don't you ever get tired of being contrary?
The answer should be obvious.
Connor McKane wrote:
And the Pharr riot IS the riot I am talking about (I typed 1917 instead of 1971), and still it isn't the same, because, in the riot: The police? THEY SHOT PEOPLE. Which is what the point of my post was, so thanks for making my argument.
If the Pharr riots are not like the UK riots, why would shooting people, or simply being violent, be of use to UK police?
You seem to want both riots to be the same and different at the same time, but not want to specify how or why they should be either different or the same.
Apparently, all Police leave is cancelled until further notice to help keep the numbers up to deal with the rioting. I would provide more info, but i missed the rest of Camerons announcement.
Police leave is cancelled because the Riot Cops didn't feel safe standing about on their own watching teenagers break windows in the arseend of London.
I saw a report last night that said 50 looters (cos they aint rioting anymore) were finally dealt with by 200 police after a few hours of smashing up Hackney high street. Seriously the Police ballsed up on day one by trying to contain the situation and not nick every scrot on the street, they did the same BS the next day and it seems like it is taking Dave to come back and say that they can crack skull.
The Terretorial Support Unit in the 70s/80s would have done the lot of them on day one. Pussy footing about has only created a situation where these individuals assume they can do what they want.
Batton rounds and horse charges for the win, chase em down and give em a bit of their own treatment.
For the record Hackney has had £290m (BBC) of regeneration money spent on it (I've been there and built some of it). Race/lack of opportunity/poor environment - bollocks.
remilia_scarlet wrote:I mean, looting? Come on, how is that going to improve the economy?
In addition to the average run-of-the-mill college commies that talk about the downfall of capitalism and how great it will be once the government runs things, you have dyed-in-the-wool commies who are willing to stand up and fight against "the man" in order to bring about this radical social change.
The former will be among the first against the wall.
One of the main problems is that the police dont have the authority to do anything, last night i was watching outside my work as groups of youths were gathering and the police couldnt do anything but ask them politely to bugger off. Only thing between me and the others in the store and a couple of hundred youths was a sheet of glass. Wasnt untill they started trying to ram trollys and things at the windows of the stores could they start doing something about it. I'm not blaming the police, they just need to be given more power to stop them.
and apparently the guy who was shot in Croydon last night has just died in hospital.. very sad times :(
O goody, Parliament is being re-called so they can make a decision about this....well that and the various economic crises going on at the moment.... but not till Thursday!! Seriously, sort it out!
And i dont beleive its the Police lacking the power to do anything, it appears they are lacking the organisation and drive to do it. They are 'highly skilled in public order and crown control' (para-quoted from Sky News) and so know what to do, but seem to lack the will to carry it out. They need leading properly IMO.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
And i dont beleive its the P0olice lacking the power to do anything, it appears they are lacking the organisation and drive to do it. They are 'highly skilled in public order and crown control' (para-quoted from Sky News) and so know what to do, but seem to lack the will to carry it out. They need leading properly IMO.
Bear in mind of course there have been a few resignations amongst the upper echelons of the Met. after certain newspaper practises came to light.
Yeah the Croydon shooting victim has died, such a waste...
Cameron is back in the UK, and has issued a statement to the rioters and looters, "If you are old enough to commit the crimes, then you are old enough to answer for them." BBC news about 15 minutes ago. Well said I say, well said.
The tragedy is that the police WANT to be able to do something, but they can't, they're hands are tied with cotton wool and legislation and 'human rights'. Eurgh. Oh and we have no water cannons in England, the only ones we have are in N. Ireland Also the Met is saying that custody cells are full... stick 'em all in, 20 to a cell if it takes, no tv, no privileges, nothing.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
And i dont beleive its the P0olice lacking the power to do anything, it appears they are lacking the organisation and drive to do it. They are 'highly skilled in public order and crown control' (para-quoted from Sky News) and so know what to do, but seem to lack the will to carry it out. They need leading properly IMO.
Bear in mind of course there have been a few resignations amongst the upper echelons of the Met. after certain newspaper practises came to light.
First off, apologies for my lack of spelling. IE7 (work version) just doesnt stand up to Chrome.
There is that, but its the leaders on the ground who need to be taking the initiative in order to stop this. Its pretty much been proved that the looters are highly organised and are using dis-information and mobile technology to keep the Police guessing. In that case, fast response teams need to be working together to corral the looters and stop them from running. I know its not what they are for, but couldnt the mounted police do this? There are millions of cameras all over London (the average UK resident is caught on camera over 300 times a day, and that was 2-3 years ago), many of which are under the control of, or could be accessed by, the police. Why are these not being used like they are the rest of the time to idetify groups of looters and then send in the fast response units to keep them from running away while the rest of the police arrive?
My ideas anyway (judiciously sprinkled with words of wisdom from discussions with colleagues today).
Revenent Reiko wrote:? There are millions of cameras all over London (the average UK resident is caught on camera over 300 times a day, and that was 2-3 years ago), many of which are under the control of, or could be accessed by, the police. Why are these not being used like they are the rest of the time to idetify groups of looters and then send in the fast response units to keep them from running away while the rest of the police arrive?
It seems, rightly or wrongly, these are mainly being used to identify the (alleged ) looters etc etc afterwards.
There are, apparently, a few similar sites/pages up and running.
I guess it takes time to go through the cameras and work out what's usable. That's assuming the cameras were even operational at the time in the first place of course.
It seems to me that the looters have, for the most part, been left alone and the initial deployment of riot police has been to clamp down on the violent disorders, assaults and protecting the fire engines.
Sandyman11 wrote: Oh and we have no water cannons in England, the only ones we have are in N. Ireland
Been listening to the news and they've been saying that even if water cannons were here its not a good idea to use them. They were saying that its a good tactic against static crowds and mobs sort of squaring up to police but for rioting and looting like this it wont work. Theyre moving around too quickly, targeting one place, causing as much damage as possible, taking what they want then moving on before too many police show up. In some cases they then moved back to an area they previously attacked and looted to carry on with it. They were travelling around in cars and on bikes just looking for trouble, spoke to someone earlier today who was around where i was was last night who said they were asked by one group where it was happening so they could go join in.
Revenent Reiko wrote:? There are millions of cameras all over London (the average UK resident is caught on camera over 300 times a day, and that was 2-3 years ago), many of which are under the control of, or could be accessed by, the police. Why are these not being used like they are the rest of the time to idetify groups of looters and then send in the fast response units to keep them from running away while the rest of the police arrive?
It seems, rightly or wrongly, these are mainly being used to identify the (alleged ) looters etc etc afterwards.
There are, apparently, a few similar sites/pages up and running.
I guess it takes time to go through the cameras and work out what's usable. That's assuming the cameras were even operational at the time in the first place of course.
It seems to me that the looters have, for the most part, been left alone and the initial deployment of riot police has been to clamp down on the violent disorders, assaults and protecting the fire engines.
Thanks for the info btw reds8n, i cant view many links from work though, the NHS firewall is a stone cold b***h.
I know they are focussing on being able to identify the looters afterwards, but that isnt exactly helping when theres more and more and more looting going on every night. The amount of damage being done is plainly ridiculous (although for obvious reasons damage to fire engines would be even worse), i just dont understand why large groups of looters are not being tracked on camera and then apprehended, i know they can and do do this on a regular basis on (for example) Friday nights in various areas, whats so different this time?
My worry tonight is that there are 16,000 Met cops set to patrol various areas of London tonight, but if they arent doing anything to stop the looting/muggings (seriously, there was a kid mugged during the riots)/home invasions, then whats to stop it escalating every night till there are far more than the police can handle? They arent exactly doing a great job of it at the moment (although i can understand being hamstrung by regulations etc.)
It's rubbish to say the police don't have the capability to sort out the rioters.
They have the law, the equipment and the training. Parliament has passed a number of laws against rioting. They will probably pass some more this autumn.
As said above, the police need to organise some flying squads so that when rioting starts in an area, they can get there in 30 minutes, cordon off the streets and round up as many of the looters as possible.
The human race as it is today...destroying other peoples business's,shops,homes and getting themselves arrested and people laugh when you say that ancient peoples were smart. In all honesty atleast get water cannons hopefully it doesnt end up with rubber bullets being fired
What the police need is the ability to beat the rioters hard with their batons if the rioters aren't willing to bring themselves in willingly and to do this without threat of prosecution against them.
Send the Marines in, we covered the no good fething firemen, lets cover the no good fething police.
Might have to kill a few, but I guarantee my commando could have London quiet inside 6 hours, we can insert via the Thames and chop the head off the snake!
Revenent Reiko wrote:They havent AFAIK, i havent heard/read anything about people defending themselves, just a whole lot of running away and i cant say i blame them.
remember, we dont have guns in our houses (not legally anyway )
I remember during the La riots, the store and homeowners with guns were able to keep the bastards away from their homes and businesses.
Revenent Reiko wrote:They havent AFAIK, i havent heard/read anything about people defending themselves, just a whole lot of running away and i cant say i blame them.
remember, we dont have guns in our houses (not legally anyway )
I remember during the La riots, the store and homeowners with guns were able to keep the bastards away from their homes and businesses.
Wish we could that, i was looking in my garage for my Cricket bat last night (just in case i swear Your Honour )
If the spineless met had gone in hard in the first place then we wouldn't be here talking about how it's gotten so much worse. As a few have said so far, the Police have the man power and the laws to have gone in hard and fast on sunday night.
Rubber bullets, dogs the whole enchilada..... These rioting animals need a swift kicking from the Gov't and the Police.
Alas, too much red tape and a complete wimp for a Home Secretary means this is never likely to happen :(
Do you remember what happened during the student protests? Traitors made an outcry of police actions during violent protests. Police are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If they use force; the ignorant public at a large will complain.
At the student protests and various other recent protest marches the police used high density kettling tactics against mainly law-abiding citizens who were trying to exercise their democratic rights.
Unsurprisingly there was an outcry against that.
Locking down an actual riot is a completely different situation and the police reaction to these riots has been "low key" at best.
Mr Hyena wrote:Do you remember what happened during the student protests? Traitors made an outcry of police actions during violent protests. Police are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If they use force; the ignorant public at a large will complain.
Unlikely in this case.
What are the 'ignorant public' going to shout and scream about? 'how dare you hit those criminals-who-have-nothing-to-protest-about-anymore-and-are-just-looting-for-the-hell-of-it!!'
And who is it going to be shouting? Please try and find me someone not involved in the looting who believes what they are doing is in any way justified.
Its different if its a protest (as it was on Saturday...kinda), but this is just plain looting now so the people doing it dont have a leg to stand on.
mattyrm wrote: Send the Marines in, we covered the no good fething firemen, lets cover the no good fething police.
Might have to kill a few, but I guarantee my commando could have London quiet inside 6 hours, we can insert via the Thames and chop the head off the snake!
You have my vote mate.
You know what I heard on the radio earlier, just a couple of hours ago? There's a reporter asking people why they're doing what they're doing, the exact word for word reply was, and I quote "dis iz 'ow we go about gettin' money round 'ere, uva peepul, uva stuck up peepul, don' ged dat".
So you've admitted that it's no longer a 'protest' about so called racist treatment then? And admitted to theft on a scale that I never imagined would be seen in this country? If that's the case then I fething well will unleash Mattyrm and his boys and put all you fethers down for good. 'Coz dis iz 'ow we go about protectin' are shizz, what uva peepul, uva bottom feedin', scum bag, free loadin' spankers, don' ged. Innit.
Mattyrm, I know which end of a gun to point at them, let me know if and when you go
Well, it's starting again round mine.. Just phoned my friend who's at work now and they said theres a few hundred youths around, riot police are already out, entire high street is closed or closing down. He said they haven't broken in yet, but it's getting extremely tense.
People gathering up the road from my house too.. think i might have to move my car somewhere..
I'm in Carshalton/Sutton, not too far from sutton high street and Rosehill , at my other halfs place at the moment but phoned a friend who works in the high street and my sister who lives there, luckily she's got some sense and her and my niece are staying at my mums tonight but she said theres people gathering there too. Hopefully nothing will happen but its still worrying.
Quoted below for those that cannot access the link.
Shops looted, cars and buildings burnt out, young adults in hoods on the rampage.
London has woken up to street violence, and the usual narratives have emerged – punish those responsible for the violence because they are "opportunist criminals" and "disgusting thieves". The slightly more intellectually curious might blame the trouble on poor police relations or lack of policing.
My own view is that the police in this country do an impressive job and unjustly carry the consequences of a much wider social dysfunction. Before you take a breath of sarcasm thinking "here she goes, excusing the criminals with some sob story", I want to begin by stating two things. First, violence and looting can never be justified. Second, for those of us working at street level, we're not surprised by these events.
Twitter and Facebook have kept the perverse momentum going, transmitting invitations such as: "Bare shops are gonna get smashed up. So come, get some (free stuff!!!!) F... the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! Dead the ends and colour war for now. So If you see a brother... SALUTE! If you see a fed... SHOOT!"
If this is a war, the enemy, on the face of it, are the "lawless", the defenders are the law-abiding. An absence of morality can easily be found in the rioters and looters. How, we ask, could they attack their own community with such disregard? But the young people would reply "easily", because they feel they don't actually belong to the community. Community, they would say, has nothing to offer them. Instead, for years they have experienced themselves cut adrift from civil society's legitimate structures. Society relies on collaborative behaviour; individuals are held accountable because belonging brings personal benefit. Fear or shame of being alienated keeps most of us pro-social.
Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.
The insidious flourishing of anti-establishment attitudes is paradoxically helped by the establishment. It grows when a child is dragged by their mother to social services screaming for help and security guards remove both; or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids. Walk into the mental hospitals and there is nothing for the patients to do except peel the wallpaper. Go to the youth centre and you will find the staff have locked themselves up in the office because disturbed young men are dominating the space with their violent dogs. Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped. The border police arrive at the neighbour's door to grab an "over-stayer" and his kids are screaming. British children with no legal papers have mothers surviving through prostitution and still there's not enough food on the table.
It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped. Savagery is a possibility within us all. Some of us have been lucky enough not to have to call upon it for survival; others, exhausted from failure, can justify resorting to it.
Our leaders still speak about how protecting the community is vital. The trouble is, the deal has gone sour. The community has selected who is worthy of help and who is not. In this false moral economy where the poor are described as dysfunctional, the community fails. One dimension of this failure is being acted out in the riots; the lawlessness is, suddenly, there for all to see. Less visible is the perverse insidious violence delivered through legitimate societal structures. Check out the price of failing to care.
I got a call yesterday morning. The kids gave me a run-down of what had happened in Brixton. A street party had been invaded by a group of young men out to grab. A few years ago, the kids who called me would have joined in, because they had nothing to lose. One had been permanently excluded from six schools. When he first arrived at Kids Company he cared so little that he would smash his head into a pane of glass and bite his own flesh off with rage. He'd think nothing of hurting others. After intensive social care and support he walked away when the riots began because he held more value in his membership of a community that has embraced him than a community that demanded his dark side.
It costs money to care. But it also costs money to clear up riots, savagery and antisocial behaviour. I leave it to you to do the financial and moral sums.
This is why I like living in the country - you usually know when strangers are up to no good. Country living also affords better fields of fire.
Anyway, haven't seen it listed anywhere here but with all the looting and burning going on I was wondering about any GW stores being hit. Its not right in any way, but you can see why looters target certain types of stores like electronics stores and such as its high dollar merchandise. GW stores wouldn't normally be something that a looter would typically target - set on fire maybe. Just wondering because of the number of GW stores that are supposed to be in your larger cities.
Archaro - no idea about how the riots have affected GW stores, but my FLGS manager was telling me about a break in at Bradford (a big indian / pakistani area) where they broke in and nicked the crappy tv that was on the wall. An old thing that you'd flog for a fiver at a carboot sale.
They then came back a few days later and stole a calculator from bhind the till, probably thinking it was the remote control, completely ignoring the £100s of miniatures that were there out for the taking! Lol at stupid people.
Kanuck - just found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_1986 not a riot act as such, which was dropped in 1973 (forbidding groups of more than 12 people). Like I say, not a riot act per se, just the only thing I could find in a few minutes of googling.
Anyway, my garage was broken into a few weeks ago (completely unrelated, obviously).
Please don't attach non wargaming images to Dakka. Thanks
Anyway, haven't seen it listed anywhere here but with all the looting and burning going on I was wondering about any GW stores being hit.
Yeah somehow I don't think the looter's will take a Land Raider over a pair of Nike's. Yet they probably would bust one up if they felt like it, it seems to be random enough. We'll have to wait and see what happens tonight. Only time will tell if the 16,000 officers can control it - not to mention the rest of the UK. I hope it's enough, I fear it might not be and they should have brought the army in, just to send a psychological message more than anything else. Sadly if the police started to break limbs there'd be an uncountable amount of investigations and the 'victims' would no doubt sue...
Would it be possible to seek asylum from Britain? Can you do that or does it have to be a literal warzone?
Surely, the UK has some sort of "Riot Act" that can be enacted now?
warspawned wrote:Yeah somehow I don't think the looter's will take a Land Raider over a pair of Nike's.
Kind of what I was getting at. Breaking into a gaming store would probably not be high on a looters list unless the store had DVD's or a TV/Gaming system around. The crappy TV and calculator that Kitch102 mentioned being stolen - now thats desperate and lame. How long before Nerd-rage takes over and a GW store does get looted for their high priced models though?
Just listened to the BBC recording of two 17 year old girls who claimed anyone who had a business was rich (excuse to destroy local property and loot) and said it was to tell the Police and rich people that they could do what they want. What a bunch off idiots.
Lets infect them with the zombie virus that the government has, always goes well in the films. But seriously just use bullets, rubber, plastic or real I don't care.
Can any of you Dakkanauts that are based in London let me know how it is in Hammersmith/Shepherds Bush?
My wife works in Hammersmith on a Friday and Saturday. Just want to gauge the mood there somehow before I tell her to phone in sick!
The live footage also shows all the vandalists run as soon as riot police show up. If they feel so strong and want their voices heard, you'd think they'd actually not flee in fear.
Ahtman wrote:A lot of the people posting in this thread don't seem much better than the people they are calling for violence against.
Really? Could it be because most of the people who live in England, especially London, are fed up with the culture that seems to be rife here at the moment? Or maybe it's because our Gov't and Police are so hamstrung by their own laws (stand up Human Rights Act 1998, I'm talking to you) that they are next to useless? Or maybe it's just because we are fed up with little gaks wandering around thinking that the world owes them something......
Not to mention that if anyone of us were to actually clout one of these little 'darlings' that we caught looting our shop, we would be the ones put in prison and/or sued. Thankyou America for that awesome addition to our lives!
I dont think asking for a quick resolution is comparable to the rioters. If anything its a great testing ground for anti riot technology, might as well take advantage of it while you can justify it.
Manchester city centre is chaos at present - widespread looting and disorder. My missus was in a pub with a friend and they started putting the shutters down so she legged it across town and managed to get beck to our house in the northern suburbs of the city. Worrying times. I am furious.
Ahtman wrote:A lot of the people posting in this thread don't seem much better than the people they are calling for violence against.
Really? Could it be because most of the people who live in England, especially London, are fed up with the culture that seems to be rife here at the moment? Or maybe it's because our Gov't and Police are so hamstrung by their own laws (stand up Human Rights Act 1998, I'm talking to you) that they are next to useless? Or maybe it's just because we are fed up with little gaks wandering around thinking that the world owes them something......
Not to mention that if anyone of us were to actually clout one of these little 'darlings' that we caught looting our shop, we would be the ones put in prison and/or sued. Thankyou America for that awesome addition to our lives!
This totally justifies calling for shooting people in the streets.
Albatross wrote:Manchester city centre is chaos at present - widespread looting and disorder. My missus was in a pub with a friend and they started putting the shutters down so she legged it across town and managed to get beck to our house in the northern suburbs of the city. Worrying times. I am furious.
Do you see more cops now than before Alby? Glad she made it home.
Are the hooligans limited to business areas or are they in residential neighborhoods now?
Just read this on Yahoo (from AP) a bit ago. Probably would be more effective if they just used the massed broom handles to at least 'deter' looters from an area.
Right now, I'm feeling pretty unsafe. I've heard rumours that the riots will be coming up to where I live.
Another conundrum of mine spawned by this is the fact that I will be going away soon. I don't know whether to feel glad that I'm dislocated from any possibility of rioting or worried for my home and possessions.
Truly these are dark days. The world's going to sh*t and England couldn't be far behind. I didn't expect everything to turn to chaos so quickly though. Then again, I haven't been keeping up with the news since that Gadafi business went on for so long I couldn't force myself to put up with listening to it every day.
I shed a proverbial tear for all who have been harmed by this savage "rioting". Most of these "rioters" are just taking advantage of the original cause for violent protest as an excuse to go looting.
Ahtman wrote:A lot of the people posting in this thread don't seem much better than the people they are calling for violence against.
Except of course, they are not the ones actually...rioting...
So? It is hypocritical to complain about the morals of rioters while calling for exacerbated violence and actually killing in the streets. The riots need to be brought under control, but calling for the state to start gunning down it's citizens in such a manner is reminiscent of the worse moments of our histories and it rarely solves anything more than either escalating the violence or momentarily suppressing it.
Yes you did, in fact a good 60% of the world learned many vital things from us..... But I digress.
The point is in America you are allowed to defend yourselves and you property from anyone, using force, right? Let me put it like this, you hear a noise in the middle of the night. You wake up and grab, let's say, a baseball bat. You go downstairs and come face to face with some tealeaf gitbag. You react first and smack him around the head and fracture his skull. Result? You are a hero and the tealeaf is put in prison.
Now, if that was the case in England, the gitbag would be able to sue you, the police would arrest YOU for assault, you would go to prison. The wife would leave you and take the kids, you would slip into a deep alcoholic depression and become homeless.....Now which story suits you better Ahtman?
So as you can see, the thought of smacking these lawless little feral donkeycaves down is extremely appealing. But because we can't, because they are free to get away with pretty much whatever they please, this makes us angry.
And we have Tony Blair to thank for that. I have nothing against the American people, in fact I admire the fact that your Police do not F around and can get the job done. But don't throw your casual xenophobia in my direction.....ok?
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Yes you did, in fact a good 60% of the world learned many vital things from us..... But I digress.
Calling racism, bigotry, and vengeance a good thing seems a bit odd.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:The point is in America you are allowed to defend yourselves and you property from anyone, using force, right
Nope. Depends on both the state and situation.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Now, if that was the case in England, the gitbag would be able to sue you, the police would arrest YOU for assault, you would go to prison. The wife would leave you and take the kids, you would slip into a deep alcoholic depression and become homeless.....Now which story suits you better Ahtman?
This can happen in the US as well.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:And we have Tony Blair to thank for that.
I'm not a British legal expert and even I know that is a false.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:But don't throw your casual xenophobia in my direction.....ok?
I don't think you really know what that means, or you'd realize how it doesn't actually apply here in the slightest.
The origin of this reminds me mostly of the so-called Battles of Los Angeles in '65 and '92. Those came about because of racial oppression, both past and present, at the time. Much of which was perpetrated by the police.
I bring this up because I don't really associate that kind of racial strife with England. Is it really that bad for people of colour there? Do police really discriminate? Institutionalized racism in other words.
Ok Ahtman, let's start from the beginning:
1: Xenophobia, an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners. As you seem to tarring all Brits with vengeance, bigotry nonsense that would be you, yes?
2: Tony Blair took us to hell in a handbasket, but then you would know that right? It was his 'Human Rights Act' that allows criminals of all kinds to yell 'Thats against my Human Rights!' Where do you draw the line? If a murderer or pedophile has human rights, where does that leave the rest of us?
3: As it's not actually happening in the good ol' US of A, you have no idea how we are feeling here. The cost to families is mind blowing, the cost to our economy is worse and the fact that the football has been postponed is the worst thing! And yes the LA riots were awful, but they came about because of some stupid White cops whaling on a black guy. This started because our armed police shot a Crack dealer......
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:This started because our armed police shot a Crack dealer......
I had indeed been wondering about the cause. If that is it, then even more shame on the rioters. Honestly, it's pathetic. What's even worse, a teenager on Facebook said that such anarchy was a beautiful thing. Whilst she may have various philosophical reasoning behind it, if such mindsets became widespread then I fear the country would be doomed.
Emma Colbeck from North East England
tweets: Yesterday I was ashamed to be British. Now I watch communities rally together and #riotcleanup and it restores my faith.
This is the silver lining of the cloud. We can see right-thinking communities expressing solidarity and practical measures to help the situation.
What we need next is for the parents of the rioters to dob them in, but I don't suppose that will work in a lot of cases.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Ok Ahtman, let's start from the beginning:
1: Xenophobia, an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners. As you seem to tarring all Brits with vengeance, bigotry nonsense that would be you, yes?
If that is what you get out of that I now see that reading comprehension is probably your biggest problem. Your level of political effeciacy seems fairly low as well.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:As it's not actually happening in the good ol' US of A, you have no idea how we are feeling here.
You aren't a special little snowflake. We actually do have an idea what it is like.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:And yes the LA riots were awful, but they came about because of some stupid White cops whaling on a black guy. This started because our armed police shot a Crack dealer......
You seem to not understand the causes of either of these riots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:Emma Colbeck from North East England
tweets: Yesterday I was ashamed to be British. Now I watch communities rally together and #riotcleanup and it restores my faith.
This is the silver lining of the cloud. We can see right-thinking communities expressing solidarity and practical measures to help the situation.
Good for them. I doubt any of these measures included shooting people in the streets, either.
@Kilkrazy, thanks for the update on Hammersmith bub, much appreciated. And I'll be following the news when I get home. But the Internet here is really awful!
Take care out there dude.....
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: And yes the LA riots were awful, but they came about because of cops subduing a criminal hopped up on drugs that happened to be black. This started because our armed police shot an unarmed man...
How did that correction make you feel? Better, Worse, Same?
Let's try to stay on topic then, Sarpedons.
These guys that are rioting are just scumbags looting because they can. It's gone beyond protest and straight into Smash-n-Grab mode.
Such unrest needs to be stamped down hard. I'm not saying with lethality. But it's time for tear-gas and batons. Break them out, boys.
I'm quite surprised that the mobile and internet infrastructure in the affected areas has not been shut down by the police in order to try and prevent people organising themselves. The first thing you do is take out communication infrastructure so the enemy can't organise themselves or react quickly to your attacks.
SilverMK2 wrote:I'm quite surprised that the mobile and internet infrastructure in the affected areas has not been shut down by the police in order to try and prevent people organising themselves. The first thing you do is take out communication infrastructure so the enemy can't organise themselves or react quickly to your attacks.
Woundn't that also create more of a panic for those that can't reach their loved ones in the same areas?
Kronk, I will gladly stay on topic. Although 'Mr' Duggan, the man that was shot, was a crack dealer and a fairly high ranking member of one of Tottenhams most feared gangs. All speculation at the moment of course but hey ho......
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: And yes the LA riots were awful, but they came about because of cops subduing a criminal hopped up on drugs that happened to be black. This started because our armed police shot an unarmed man...
How did that correction make you feel? Better, Worse, Same?
*Shot a man with a replica fire-arm modified to fire real bullets.
How did that correction make you feel? Better, Worse, Same?
There's quite a large difference between shooting an unarmed man, and shooting someone suspected of gun crime (the reason that he was stopped), when he has a real-looking gun.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: And yes the LA riots were awful, but they came about because of cops subduing a criminal hopped up on drugs that happened to be black. This started because our armed police shot an unarmed man...
How did that correction make you feel? Better, Worse, Same?
*Shot a man with a replica fire-arm modified to fire real bullets.
How did that correction make you feel? Better, Worse, Same?
That must have chaffed you something aweful when it got thrown back in your face, man.
Seems to be conflicting reports. Police say he made a move. Another witness says they shot him as he lay on the ground, AFTER he had been subdued.
I don't know which is true. I'd presonally tend to believe the police. I want to believe the police. Perhaps we'll never know.
But, again, back on topic, the current rioting, strife, whatever you want to call it needs a crack down. It will take home-owners/Neighbors watching out for each other, plus the police, plus whatever other forces you guys can bring in to stop this crazyness.
Mr. Burning wrote:Its not ideal but neither is the sweeping power to control information distribution.
So, give them enough (digital) rope to hang themselves with?
Perhaps they can take them to court by the light cast by burning shops that happened because people were able to organise and keep one step ahead of the police using mobile phones and the internet
... god I wish I was there, like the student protests it could have been fun 
