When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.


This ed will probably take away WBB and replace it with FNP to represent their damage controls.Or remove Living Metal(I hear the Necron's enemies cheering).


I think GW should leave the units already there the exact same,and just add the new stuff in.Upgrade the wargear so it doesn't have to say target priority and height classes everywhere.Keep the actual rules,points and stuff the same.

Deadshot wrote:When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.

I haven't found that to be the case at all. I cite Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard as examples. You can make a case for Tyranids, but even that would be weak.

And yes, Necrons need a new codex. They are the oldest codex out there and need an update.

Deadshot wrote:This ed will probably take away WBB and replace it with FNP to represent their damage controls.

Which, as a Necron player, I'm all for. WBB is pointlessly complicated as is.

Upgrade the wargear so it doesn't have to say target priority and height classes everywhere.

I'm not sure which codex you're looking at... but the Necron codex was written in 3rd edition, and so is already lacking any reference to target priority and height classes, since neither of those existed at that point.

vbout that.I just think that the units should be left alone with new modals brought in to accompany them.Edit out the 3rd ed rules and bring in the 5tyh ed versions or 5th ed relevant rules.

Deadshot wrote:When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.

I think you need to read, well... any Codex that's come out in 5th edition before saying something like that. Start with Dark Eldar.

Anyway, your idea is terrible.

From the fluff point of view I absolutely love WBB. I feel like the rule's original vision came along the lines of a slow-walking, relentless mechanized zombie army getting wrecked by bolter fire, and in between the opponents fire and the relentless march, the once dead zombies resurrect and continue their march onward. However, in the interest of speeding up the game FNP would make a lot of sense.

Add another troop choice my necron friend is always complaining about his lack of options for his troopers.

Most of the time you won't get FNP,as power weapons,AP1/2 weapons,ID,wounds that never allow armour saves or dangerous terrain nehates it.WBB is negated by this as well,but if you have a RO in range it deosn't,and they are much cheaper to field 3rd and 4th ed than 5th ed.

This new codex isn't good news at all. Keep in mind who's writing it.
So basically you have a below average writer trying to renovate the entire fluff of the necrons. Honestly, I pity necron players. They've waited so long for a codex that they deserve better than that.

Who is writng it?All I heard is that there is a new one coming out.

If you keep everything mostly the same, there isnt much point to write a book. GW makes changes and adds units to sell books and, more importantly, new models. The codex will go from being one of the worst to a highly competetive (probably) one that still (hopefully) retains the flavor and feel of the army. Nothing to complain about unless youre one of those people who likes the challenge of using an underpowered army.

Remember the rules for Blood Angels and Marines and Grey Knights. A handful of them left you scratching your head and confused but most of them were solid and damn good. Now take the fluff section and burn it but aside that I'm pretty sure this Necron codex will be amazing.

Deadshot wrote:Most of the time you won't get FNP,as power weapons,AP1/2 weapons,ID,wounds that never allow armour saves or dangerous terrain nehates it.WBB is negated by this as well,but if you have a RO in range it deosn't,and they are much cheaper to field 3rd and 4th ed than 5th ed.

AP 1-3 weaponry doesn't negate WBB.

I don't think the crunch will be terribly bad, with the exception of apparently the recent Sisters "codex," which was apparently written by Ward, usually his crunch is all right, although since Ward is a crappy writer some of it is confusing and needs an FAQ to elaborate.

But if Ward really is writing it, and if the "rumors" of the codex are any indication, the fluff will be horrible.

WBB is deliciously fluffy and for some reason retaining the Terminator reference is important to me.

And Deadshot, not every codex gets "worse" in 5e like you seem to think, with the exception of apparently the Sisters of Battle, and, arguably, the Tyranids (Though honestly the "badness" of the codex is overrated). Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, all are very good codices, certainly not nerfed.

A Necron codex is needed... Although I suspect that the Necron codex I would like won't be what I will get, since the rumors say that basically the entirety of the old fluff will be being pulverised and completely rewritten. Hooray.

Bring in a couple new C'tans, more HQ choices and something light infantryish (like kroot) keep everything else exept possibly WBB and there's a good army.

I think the OP has a very personal opinion and a... limited understanding of current codex design.

It's probably ok to just accept that nearly everybody wants a new Necron book and move away.

ajax22 wrote:Bring in a couple new C'tans, more HQ choices and something light infantryish (like kroot) keep everything else exept possibly WBB and there's a good army.

Eh, I've honestly always been against the C'tan themselves being fielded on the tabletop.

I would prefer something like an aspect of them being usable, like in Dawn of War.

Absolutley they need a new codex! I have never seen a necron player win around my neck of the woods. I feel bad for the guy I generally play against, as it just seems like he always gets stomped.

Now he's not a bad general, he wins lots of games with his eldar. It just seems that even with 2 or 3 monoliths, or nothing but warriors and destroyers, he just cant win. Its usually not even close.

The models are just to costly (points wise) and it way to easy to phase the crons out. New dex for sure!

Kurgash wrote:Remember the rules for Blood Angels and Marines and Grey Knights. A handful of them left you scratching your head and confused but most of them were solid and damn good. Now take the fluff section and burn it but aside that I'm pretty sure this Necron codex will be amazing.

The ones that left your head scratching were the ones that affected the unit the most and thus the most important.
Examples being the nemesis doomfist. S10? Or no? Even as the game devs played it with S10 and Yakface with his FAQ ruled it to be S10, the official FAQ declared it just a power weapon. Then you have the nem. force falchions that people wrote entire research papers on.
And scout + shunt. And multiple psycho grenades. And ect ect.
This is before the stupidity of such rules slammed into your face like the scent of fresh elephant dung concentrated into a liquid fist.

New and overpowered rules are nice but their novelty does wear off and once you realize that there is little to no subsistence behind the rules, you just end up with a bunch of hollow rules and lower 40k army quality in general.

Yes, I'm referring to the sanguinor. Who wrote the blood angels codex again?

Deadshot wrote:When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.


This ed will probably take away WBB and replace it with FNP to represent their damage controls.Or remove Living Metal(I hear the Necron's enemies cheering).


I think GW should leave the units already there the exact same,and just add the new stuff in.Upgrade the wargear so it doesn't have to say target priority and height classes everywhere.Keep the actual rules,points and stuff the same.

I only know their fluff is going to be r****, as for rules - pretty much to.
I also heard that Necrons actually wiped out the C'Tan and use the remaning 4 as "slaves" and that now they will start their own "civil war" between Necron Lords.
Seems that Imperium will survive after all....

terranarc wrote:This new codex isn't good news at all. Keep in mind who's writing it.
So basically you have a below average writer trying to renovate the entire fluff of the necrons. Honestly, I pity necron players. They've waited so long for a codex that they deserve better than that.

Depends on what you want, most gamers will be happy with a good codex even if the stories in it are rubbish because its a codex for a wargame not a piece of literature read for enjoyment.

New codex and no crap-dex please! I'm planning on getting rid of my Necrons, they cause more issues playing them than I have fun playing them. I'm sick of people saying they are broken and Monoliths are unbeatable... blah blah blah.

I hope they write one that makes sense and is easy for everyone to get along with. WWB has definitely made me grow tired of them. Give them FNP and be done with it...

Deadshot wrote:Most of the time you won't get FNP,as power weapons,AP1/2 weapons,ID,wounds that never allow armour saves or dangerous terrain nehates it.WBB is negated by this as well,but if you have a RO in range it deosn't,and they are much cheaper to field 3rd and 4th ed than 5th ed.

Funny, but use forces with FNP all the time and the majority of weapons in most forces are *not* power weapons, AP1/2 weapons or wounds that do not allow armor saves. FNP is a free 4+ invulnerable save that 9 times out of 10 will not go away. Those AP 1/2 weapons and weapons that don't allow armor saves usually can take out *1* model from range, that is all. Hardly all that big a deal either.

Necrons will still be very tough to destroy with FNP without trying to keep track of which models can make a WBB roll or not. Everything is resolved in the shooting or assault phases during damage resolution.

Skriker

I feel the Necron codex is fantasticly wriiten and the units are not overpriced.It,IMO,does not need an upgrade.

And that guy who always loses with them,is just maybe not a cron player.I have several guys up my way who play without monolithes and C'tan and win against everybody.

Deadshot wrote:I feel the Necron codex is fantasticly wriiten and the units are not overpriced.It,IMO,does not need an upgrade.

It was fantastically written in 3rd edition.

The units are extremely overpriced. That is an objective fact.

I think the Necrons absolutely need a new Codex. Every army deserves a chance to be updated. Even ones that we don't personally like. They should get some more vehicles, streamline the rules, and yes, provide new fluff that some people are going to like and others will not.

Generally speaking I think that most new Codices are successful. I think many people disagree about Tyranids, but even then, I think it did okay because the Tyranids needed to be cut down a little bit.

Necrons, on the other hand, aren't really overpowered. WBB is obnoxious, but manageable. The Monolith is aggravating, but it has weaknesses. The army has giant gaping flaws in it as it is, and the Codex was not written for 5e, meaning it behind the curve on some of the rules. I'd like to see it get updated. Heck, I would like a consistent update rotation. That would be nice.

Here's what I want.

5th ed rules updates
Fluff
New minatures
Everything already there kept the same.

Deadshot wrote:Here's what I want.

5th ed rules updates
Fluff
New minatures
Everything already there kept the same.

So you want a new codex then

Deadshot wrote:I feel the Necron codex is fantasticly wriiten and the units are not overpriced.It,IMO,does not need an upgrade.

And that guy who always loses with them,is just maybe not a cron player.I have several guys up my way who play without monolithes and C'tan and win against everybody.

Then your area isn't very competitive, take necrons to a major tournament and then see how they do.

Deadshot wrote:I have several guys up my way who play without monolithes and C'tan and win against everybody.

I seriously doubt that, although I suppose it is possible all the non-Necron players are just that bad at playing 40K.

Deadshot wrote:vbout that.I just think that the units should be left alone with new modals brought in to accompany them.Edit out the 3rd ed rules and bring in the 5tyh ed versions or 5th ed relevant rules.

Everything you are saying here, is accomplished with a new codex. I really don't know what your intent is. Do you want new rules but the same old fluff? And you want the same units but new models? Or do you want the old models and new models(units)?

They probably will replace WBB w/ FNP, but the orb's effects will remain the same in that . . they get FNP no matter what.
You say no monoliths or c'tan? Are they playing with 5E rules?

What I want is a new codex,in all but name,with all the current units completelty unchanged in any way.Lords,destroyers,pariahs,flayed ones,wraiths,heavy destroyers,scarabs,Tomb Syders(maybe those),warriors,c'tan and monolithes exactly the same.

games workshop would probably take out wbb. it sounds like something they do to our poor buds the necs. if they really thik its going to make more necron players i'd kick them in the nads.

Deadshot wrote:What I want is a new codex,in all but name,with all the current units completelty unchanged in any way.Lords,destroyers,pariahs,flayed ones,wraiths,heavy destroyers,scarabs,Tomb Syders(maybe those),warriors,c'tan and monolithes exactly the same.

Dude, are you mad or something? Necrons NEED a new codex, they are currently the mouldy old sandwich neglected and shoved to the back of the GW "to do" fridge, it has clunky rules, overpriced unit, units no-one takes (Pariahs). The fact you're at a 360pt deficeit in every game (yes, Warriors are that much of a handicap).

Granted, you are able to do well with Necrons currently, but it is an massive uphill struggle that can come crashing down very easily. It is doable and Sisyphus will think he's got it easy all of a sudden. If you're some kind of wargaming masochist, then by all means continue to use the old Necron codex, but you'll find you're in a minority of one regarding the opinion on power level.

WBB is a good fluff and game rule.It characterises the Crons as undead sci-fi skeletons and is better in game than FNP.Most armies now are either heavy mech or MEQ.As such people address the issue of high armour first,in the form of power weapons and AP1/2.You still have the same problem,but a RO is at least some chance to get them back on their feet.Living Metal,as much as I hate it,means players muast be challenged to the limit.When fighting the only other all round AV14 vehicle in the game,LRs andf their variants(Chaos included),what is the first weapon of chocie?Melta,Lances,MCs.Monolithes are one of the most durable vehicles in the game,forcing opponents to readdress their stratagies.




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Up hill struggles are better than instrant victories.An honest day's buck wage for an honest day's labour.When a job's done right,the rewards are graeter.


Necrons have 2 things they can pride themselves on.Being the oldest active codex and being the underdogs.

Deadshot wrote:WBB is a good fluff and game rule.

Hey look, a smidge of lucidity among the madness...

HOWEVER, I daresay WBB is also the single most misinterpreted, misunderstood and mangled rule in 40k ATM. The sheer amount of YMDC threads on WBB over the years (in spite of the fact I personally cannot understand why it seems to be so hard to understand for some people) should be an indicator that it needs a new mechanic, the only similar on in the game ATM being FNP (and even that has it's share of rule's mangling), for the sake of everyone's sanity FNP is the lesser of two evils in this situation and I for one welcome our new FNPed Necron overlords.

WBB should at least be made more clear in its mechanics, although I have a pretty firm grasp of how it works I would say, a lot of people are confused by it. I would like the name to be unchanged though, would like to keep the Terminator reference.

Also, holy crap what is this.

Pariahs are VERY overpriced, VERY rarely will a player take them, I am the only Necron player I have ever even heard of who semi-regularly takes them, and that is only because they are one of my favorite fluff units.

Flayed Ones are total crap sandwiches compared to Immortals, they're a mediocre CC infiltrating unit, and actually I might take them sometimes... If they were troops. But since they are elites, I very rarely do, also a shame, but whatever.

Necron Warriors are not great either, but a lot of the time you essentially need it to play, due to Phase Out, which I think should be taken out.

A Necron update is more than welcome.

Just not the one we are apparently getting.

Lol @ this thread.

WBB is alright, It definitely could use some tweaking to clarify some points but it's still a strong rule and a cornerstone to what the Necron army is supposed to be based on.

I don't think it should be replaced by FNP as it doesn't sit right with the army, and really, If the army is based around a special rule I think it would be better to make a new special rule and have all secondary affects ( Res orb, monolith portal) affect the new rule, than try to conform said secondary affects to an existing rule ( FNP).

The only issue seems to be that whenever a codex is redone, units that were useful are suddenly made more expensive, or less useful. If Necrons had a ton of units like this, then I'd be worried. However, Necrons have very little in the way of good units when compared to other armies. IMO, only the Monolith can be seen as "good" compared to other armies. I can see how it would be annoying if Monoliths got worse, but thats not a bad thing if other unts improved. So, yes, Necrons need a new codex, if only to bring them in line with other codexes. Obviously fluff might get a massive smack, and we don't want that, but it's the rules we use to play the game, right??

They really need an update. I am excited about the upcoming release, maybe I can stop fighting bugs for once.

This thread is awesome. Either full of trolls or full of people who just got into 40k/never browse News&Rumors.

[JokeBeigins] You know what we need more than a Necron Codex? Squats Codex. [\JokeEnds] In all seriousness, I like the idea of a new 'Cron codex. I really like the Necrons as an army and their play style, I think a simple update without changing too many of the base rules that make them Necrons like WBB will breath life into them again. I'd like to see some more Necron players in the games at the shops around where I live. Or in California in general.

to be honest necrons need new units not new rules WBB keep it even just realeascstat cheats but keep the codex i love it but when the new codex is out it better not de matt ward

bazookatooth wrote:The models are just to costly (points wise) and it way to easy to phase the crons out. New dex for sure!

Only a few things are overpriced but things like Flayed Ones. Destroyers, Lords, Monoliths, are actually underpriced for what they do, and warriors are a bargin at 18 points a pop when you compare them to a 16 point marine.

deffskulla wrote:I hope they write one that makes sense and is easy for everyone to get along with. WWB has definitely made me grow tired of them. Give them FNP and be done with it...

Nah WBB is fine as a rule, they don't need FNP but they'll probably end up with both rules. Personally I'd say make WBB +6

Jimsolo wrote:I think the Necrons absolutely need a new Codex. Every army deserves a chance to be updated. Even ones that we don't personally like.

Necrons, on the other hand, aren't really overpowered. WBB is obnoxious, but manageable. The Monolith is aggravating, but it has weaknesses.

True I personally don't like them either way, but they aren't as underpowered as people complain. WBB with the Monolith and 2 Lords with ROs is downright hair pulling annoying. And I think the only weakness a Monolith has is a Str 10 anything, but good luck getting a dread on it, and most tanks with Str 10 main guns have only 12 armor.

I'd honestly like to see them treated more like the VC in Fantasy. Make it so they don't start phaseing out until you gut their 0-1 choice Lord. And then make them take Ld tests at a negative, and by how many you go over on the 2 d6 is how many insta die. But also give the Lord's more options, and abilities to bring in extra crons' via psychic power or something along the VCs raise dead rules.

They do need more variety but their points are still very fair. I'd also like to see Flayed Ones bumped closer to an actual Terminator style where they can get infiltrate and use other armies weapons as they try to 'fit in' until the moment is right to shed thier identity and kill stuff. Gives them a fluffier reason for skinning people anyway. Skin them, adjust thier bodies to fit, pick up thier victims guns...think it could work.

The lord is powerful.He may not be the greatest in combat,but a warscythe is deadly,especially to daemons,or Zoanthropes.100pts odd points?I'll take that

The thing we need most at this point is not a new codex. We need this one to get re-vamped and matched up with current rules. The biggest issue with crons is that all of our stuff accounts for outdated rules and dosent acocunt for new ones. we need to convert some units to troop choices, make a few more vehicles and we need specilized units.

Edit: the big tickets we need to get is we need to wave phase out. that is the most rediculous rule i have ever heard of. Second, i keep hearing "your individual models are getting made worse b/c theyll be cheaper, you are suppused to be this horde of robots" I mean we are one planet and a few converts, how does that equal a horde? third, we need fast vehicles, there is just no leeway for objectives games. finally, we need better long range fire. destoryers are nice but expensive. we need, for lack of better terminology, snipers. units that can fight infantry at long range and dont have to worry about dangerous terrain b/c they are jetbikes and dont cost 50 points a piece.

I guess new troops are a must.

Ward's writing it? Be prepared for controversial fluff with absolutely decent and balanced rules then.
They should have him on rules, others on fluff. Then every codex would balance out.

Agreed.Now,any suggestions for what will be in the codex?

flayed ones troops choice, infantry long range fire support, named lords, troop transports, i keep hearing rumors about crypteks on BOLS which are suppused to be mini lords for your troop units kinda like wolf guard. and an upgraded close ocmbat unit. id also like to see the old scarabs come back.

Ok,sounds decent.I will accept those.I mantain that I want the current rules and QWargear to be identical however.

I'd say you'd be hard put to frind a cron player who dosent want the warger and rules to remain as are. I like my warscythe and don't want it to turn out like a c'tan phase blade.

Exactly!Keep every rule and wargear the same,but just reword it so it makes sense in 5th ed.

And huzzah that's how you keep current players of the army happy and prevent OP fiascos like the current GK is suppusedly suffering from. lol

What OP.They cost more than standard marines,and are more outnumbered than anything.

Standard marines and eldar are usually outnumbered 2:1.GK suffer nearly 3:1 against medium armies like DE and Tau,and as much as 4 or 5:1 against hordes.

That's why I said suppusedly.

Crons need an update more than any other army currently played. They should have gotten the slot BT took in the way way back. But that would have made back to back Xenos lists. Since the Cron book went to print there have been THREE 'nids books, 2 tau, Eldar two plus a supplementary dex. The rules are antiquated, units miscosted.
All that and in the hands of a skilled player they are still competitive, maybe not a win against all comers army. But they can give you a run for the money.

nnifdude wrote:to be honest necrons need new units not new rules WBB keep it even just realeascstat cheats but keep the codex i love it but when the new codex is out it better not de matt ward

Dude, for real, break up your sentences... for the sake of us all, please.

Deadshot wrote:The lord is powerful.He may not be the greatest in combat,but a warscythe is deadly,especially to daemons,or Zoanthropes.100pts odd points?I'll take that

Please put spaces after punctuation. It doesn't take the place of spaces. Lords with warscythes are pretty good, but that's the most affordable and useful close combat unit Necrons really have.

for the thread starter whats your local META that usually answers everything with people and their attitude toward a new book.

Crons need a new book definitly some point trimming WBB rules that are clear, clean up the gauss rules. give them a little more viareity in weapon load outs, and some mods to the general HQ's as well as some useful nammed ones would be nice.

while the book maybe the oldest with necrons survive ability they arent hurting too bad, atleast in our local META some guys wont play the necron players at all, its kinda funny

Hopefully they do get a good codex. I'm looking into starting another army as I'm finding that it takes me way too long to paint Orks to the standard that I like. Ugh...

It'd be nice to have an army that I can assemble and paint in a weekend. Plus, I've already got a theme picked out...

Terminator red-eyed Necrons on Skull Bases? feth yes!

KingmanHighborn wrote:

bazookatooth wrote:The models are just to costly (points wise) and it way to easy to phase the crons out. New dex for sure!

Only a few things are overpriced but things like Flayed Ones. Destroyers, Lords, Monoliths, are actually underpriced for what they do, and warriors are a bargin at 18 points a pop when you compare them to a 16 point marine.

Lollerskates!

On everything but the Monolith (which is very points efficient) I don't agree with any of this.

Particularly with the Warriors being compared to Marines. Yes, let's compare shall we?

Necron Warrior:

WBB
Necron Type
Gauss Flayer

Space Marine:
ATSKNF (Big deal, this!)
Initiative 4
Squad Upgrades
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Combat Squads
Combat Tactics
Available Transports

Yeah, Warriors are a bargain alright. Shall we compare Warriors to a 15 Point Grey Hunter?

Monster Rain wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:

bazookatooth wrote:The models are just to costly (points wise) and it way to easy to phase the crons out. New dex for sure!

Only a few things are overpriced but things like Flayed Ones. Destroyers, Lords, Monoliths, are actually underpriced for what they do, and warriors are a bargin at 18 points a pop when you compare them to a 16 point marine.

Lollerskates!

On everything but the Monolith (which is very points efficient) I don't agree with any of this.

Particularly with the Warriors being compared to Marines. Yes, let's compare shall we?

Necron Warrior:

WBB
Necron Type
Gauss Flayer

Space Marine:
ATSKNF (Big deal, this!)
Initiative 4
Squad Upgrades
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Combat Squads
Combat Tactics
Available Transports

Yeah, Warriors are a bargain alright. Shall we compare Warriors to a 15 Point Grey Hunter?

I completely agree here. Many people think that the necrons WBB balances everything when in all fairness it dosent. Our weapons are your standard bolter that auto wounds or glances on a 6, big whup. We have a varient of FNP on most of our models. This accounts for a disproprtionall amount of our cost. We have no transpot capability and when almost any enemy with even a hint of combat ability gets close we get torn to shreds. We dont have the firepower to take down terminators and snipers eat us up for breakfast.

That is the price you pay.You need new tactics.

Without a doubt. Thats why I play them like I do. But like vamps in fantasy, when there is only one way left to sucessfully play then then they need a makeover. There is no reason to be reduced to depending a single cheese tactic to win a standard game.

Deadshot wrote:That is the price you pay.You need new tactics.

What is the price one pays for what exactly?

And enlighten us as to the tactics we should be using, would you?

Yoou don't have to resort to a single tactic.Just think differently.Do stuff you wouldn't normally do.Within reason.

Deadshot wrote:Yoou don't have to resort to a single tactic.Just think differently.Do stuff you wouldn't normally do.Within reason.

You really need to use your space bar more.

Again, what does any of that have to do with the points efficiency of Warriors vs. Marines, or frankly anything that anyone is talking about? I do just fine with Necrons, but I'm not going to sit here and act like their Codex couldn't use an update.

The points difference between Warriors and Marines has not changed. Check that it's gone up, when crons were introduced marines cost was 15. The basic cost of a Tac marine now is 18 pts. 17 for a whole squad. If you subtract the cost of the ML and Flamer you are right back at 15 pts.
In summary the points difference now and at release is the same. That's how crons were designed.
The problem exists in that crons were designed to preform two editions ago. The update to thier codex will probably include an update for WWB, new army entries, and a points cost play tested in THIS edition.

Even if the points cost for Space Marines and Necrons where the same, the Warriors are still woefully inadequate. Even moreso when compared to Grey Hunters.

I don't play Necrons, never have, but I have 2500 points of figures staring at me from behind plexi-glass in the game room. So my opinion means squat.

Now, I'm aware that with a new codex comes the possibility of new miniatures and maybe, at least one good sit-down cogitative constitutional worth of reading material.

Not to mention the endless hours of entertainment I get from reading all the angst filled posts generated by a new codex.

Bring it on Matt Ward!!!

Deadshot wrote:That is the price you pay.You need new tactics.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:

bazookatooth wrote:The models are just to costly (points wise) and it way to easy to phase the crons out. New dex for sure!

Only a few things are overpriced but things like Flayed Ones. Destroyers, Lords, Monoliths, are actually underpriced for what they do, and warriors are a bargin at 18 points a pop when you compare them to a 16 point marine.

Lollerskates!

On everything but the Monolith (which is very points efficient) I don't agree with any of this.

Particularly with the Warriors being compared to Marines. Yes, let's compare shall we?

Necron Warrior:

WBB
Necron Type
Gauss Flayer

Space Marine:
ATSKNF (Big deal, this!)
Initiative 4
Squad Upgrades
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Combat Squads
Combat Tactics
Available Transports

Yeah, Warriors are a bargain alright. Shall we compare Warriors to a 15 Point Grey Hunter?

I completely agree here. Many people think that the necrons WBB balances everything when in all fairness it dosent. Our weapons are your standard bolter that auto wounds or glances on a 6, big whup. We have a varient of FNP on most of our models. This accounts for a disproprtionall amount of our cost. We have no transpot capability and when almost any enemy with even a hint of combat ability gets close we get torn to shreds. We dont have the firepower to take down terminators and snipers eat us up for breakfast.

Okay lets see Warrior and Marine are both 4s on S, T, WS, BS, LD Both are 3+ in save, and they get WBB on a +4 that gets another chance if they are teleported through a monolith. They also have base LD 10 compared to the marines' ld 8 even if it is backed up by ATSKNF which is rarely a big deal as they still run they just can't be ran over.

None of this matters in points anyway, it's just distractions:
Combat Squads
Combat Tactics

So moving on...the only things Marines beat Crons on is ATSKNF, and Initiative. Weapon options are not factored as I'm comparing a basic marine to a basic cron warrior. The gauss weapon though is far and above better then a basic bolter, sure glancing isn't what it used to be, but you can still mess up a marine player's day when his pricey raiders and rhinos are immbolized and have weapons blown off. Thier assault isn't that bad, as thier WS and S are as good as a marine, thier Int is the only advantage for the marine mano e mano.

That said this is also why I'm fine with them getting 'some' upgrades like weapon options, and 'maybe' a transport but I think the monolith serves them fine enough for the purpose. But the basic core of their army and rules are fine and the bottom line is they are NOT overpriced.

Combat Squads and Combat Tactics actually matter a great deal.

You can't just dismiss them out of hand when comparing the units.

I am with Rain here.In KP missions,Combat Squads is a curse(when used of coarse),but in objective based missions,it is a boon,forcing your opponent to split fire and giving you twice as many scoring units.

Tactics allow you to fall back from a combat you can't win,such as a Combat Tac squad amongst 30 orks.If even 1 survives,you can fall back and allow your army to fire on the mob,without relinquishing a KP.

@kingman

with the necron warrior/monolith formation you just mentioned you have opeaned a points gap between us of about 235 points. with that even a marine player can take some effed Inqusition items. The exorcist alone from the witch hunters is enough to screw any monolith plan if played correctly. The problem is not who is better here its who is more versatile and every codex is more versatile than crons at this point.

Jeez I am saying I agree on the versatility, but they are NOT overpriced on the models they DO HAVE. I'm fine with tweaking phase out, and WBB as WBB is still op IMHO. As well as newer models, but for what they do an 18 point necron warrior is a bargain.

No Necron warriors aren't a "bargain". There are mediocre at shooting ( no special weapons, no heavy weapons, autoglance and autowound are unreliable ) and suck in close combat ( low ini, no special weapons and yay, getting annihilated when losing cc is so much fun for an 18 points Necron warrior ).
So, what exactly are Necron warriors supposed to be good at? Soaking up damage? Cause that's the only thing they can actualy do.

You have to be kidding me, they are elite at shooting, thier accuracy is every bit as good as marines. And they only suck against CC orientated armies. (read: Marines) They are still toughness 4, so most non marine armies need 4s to hit and 5s to hurt them, then they get a 3+ save, and a WBB. I've seen 10 hold up and destroy a 30 something through hormagaunt brood. And oh even if they do get get ran over they can just teleport and get a reroll on WBB and shoot what assaulted them the next turn. It literally takes a MEQ assault dedicated unit to beat them in CC. 18 is FAIR.

And oh even if they do get get ran over they can just teleport and get a reroll on WBB and shoot what assaulted them the next turn.

If I'm not mistaken they are removed from play when they got ran over as the sweeping advance rule states.

I'd like to see more units for Necrons... they have so few models I think

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't think the crunch will be terribly bad, with the exception of apparently the recent Sisters "codex," which was apparently written by Ward

Actually Cruddace wrote the rules section, Ward just wrote the fluff.

Melissia wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't think the crunch will be terribly bad, with the exception of apparently the recent Sisters "codex," which was apparently written by Ward

Actually Cruddace wrote the rules section, Ward just wrote the fluff.

Ah, I see.

That seems kind of backwards.

Melissia wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't think the crunch will be terribly bad, with the exception of apparently the recent Sisters "codex," which was apparently written by Ward

Actually Cruddace wrote the rules section, Ward just wrote the fluff.

...and that makes it better how?

Your SoB's rules won't be fethed to kingdom come.

Cyrax wrote:

And oh even if they do get get ran over they can just teleport and get a reroll on WBB and shoot what assaulted them the next turn.

If I'm not mistaken they are removed from play when they got ran over as the sweeping advance rule states.

Indeed, no WBB if you get swept.

As for Warriors being good at shooting: No, they're really not. Average range with a slight chance of hurting big things isn't that good.

If the unit gets wiped (either from shooting or just getting mauled in cc or some other way) they dont get a wbb anyway unless there is another unit of the same type within either 6 or 12 inches, I dont remember which and no the res orb does not effect this.

The only thing that can be said for our shooting is yes, comparatively we are accurate, yes our basic troops weapons are better than most, no we do not have the level of anti infantry or anti armor weapons that most armies do.

For our cc, yes we do have a trained fighters ws, yes we do have a superhumans strength and toughness, no we do not have the cc options to make it so we survive in cc, no we do not have the number of attacks needed to do well, and our intiative is low so we have less attacks to swing back with.

Necrons can be deadly to mech armies,as even the Warriors can glance LR enemy monolithes.


Question:If a weapon that is gauss can penetrate on a 6(ie-Guass cannon on a rhino),does it glance or penentrate?

Then this weapon penetrates. Also, from what I heard, Gauss weapons aren't so hot anymore because glances are just much less dangerous. In 4th ed. I think a glance could wreck a vehicle. Now you need a 6 on an open topped vehicle to do this. Since an average d6 roll is 3 if I recall correctly, most of the time you are going to get just shaken results. And it looks like EVERY necron player treats Warriors like a point handicap that you have to live with, and there's a reason for that.

For context KingmanHighborn is the guy who thinks having 2 res orb lords and a Monolith in range of a squad gets you 4 WBB attempts so he's not really arguing in good faith.

Yes, nothing to do with rules but they need to update the fluff (all the ancient "war in heaven" stuff is really confusing)

Deadshot wrote:Necrons can be deadly to mech armies,as even the Warriors can glance LR enemy monolithes.


Question:If a weapon that is gauss can penetrate on a 6(ie-Guass cannon on a rhino),does it glance or penentrate?

Do you have any idea how hard it is to glance a Monolith to death? I really hope you do, because it's nigh impossible.

it is impossiable unless you are ap1

it has a weapon that cannot be destroyed thus you cannot glance it to death.

Corrode wrote:For context KingmanHighborn is the guy who thinks having 2 res orb lords and a Monolith in range of a squad gets you 4 WBB attempts so he's not really arguing in good faith.

For context I had one mistake that res orb gave a reroll, and even then, with that mistake it was 3 attempts. So yes they offically only get the normal WBB and then the extra one through the Monolith.

And I was misunderstand on being ran over, as it meant more like being mauled like losing 8 out of 10 for example. And with thier Ld 10 it'll take a lot to make them take a difficult LD test to run. So unless you do kill all of the squad in one go, they will come back good as new.

Anyway bottom line Necrons are not overpriced. And it amazes me how Necron players will whine even when they table update armies with ease. They do need a new dex to give them some variety, and a tweak on phase out, but the prices of what they have is fair.

KingmanHighborn wrote:Anyway bottom line Necrons are not overpriced. And it amazes me how Necron players will whine even when they table update armies with ease. They do need a new dex to give them some variety, and a tweak on phase out, but the prices of what they have is fair.

Who's whining about it?

You said that they were fairly priced compared to Marines and were shown how wrong that was. Costing 3 points more and not being nearly as good as a pretty standard model that you'll see around the gaming tables is a pretty good indication that something might cost a bit too much.

The fact that I (and many others) manage to win with them is entirely beside the point.

Deadshot wrote:When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.

I take it you've not read the GK Codex?

Monster Rain wrote:You said that they were fairly priced compared to Marines and were shown how wrong that was. Costing 3 points more and not being nearly as good as a pretty standard model that you'll see around the gaming tables is a pretty good indication that something might cost a bit too much.

The fact that I (and many others) manage to win with them is entirely beside the point.

I haven't been shown jack squat. As at 18 points they are fair, and are better then the average marine model. And you proved my point. When you lose 9 times out of ten, even when being a cheesy power gamer then you might have a case. Until then, my points stand firm.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Deadshot wrote:When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.

I take it you've not read the GK Codex?

Ward's writing.Doesn't count IMO.

Deadshot wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Deadshot wrote:When GW brins out a new codex,they either crap out on what's there and and downgrade all the special rules.

I take it you've not read the GK Codex?

Ward's writing.Doesn't count IMO.

As much as I dislike Ward myself, you mentioned "GW", and Matt Ward is a part of GW. You cannot say "that doesn't count".

I just did.

It's kind of like if we showed up and said your posts don't count.

Basing statements on facts, whilst manipulating said facts by excluding relevant data, is ignorance.

The easy thing would be to notice the pattern of marine codices and power to non-marine codices and power. The new Necron codex would likely be easier for both the opponent and player by being more "streamlined"/basic and would likely be average at best. Their WBB changing to either flat FNP or a specialised version of it for simplicity; though not needed at all.

The problem I see with them is how combat resolves, it's a bit too easy for them to fail combat and be wiped out; leading to phase out. Really they just need either Stubborn or Fearless in order to reflect the "fearless" the codex seems to have attempted with the army wide LD10.

I think the Necrons, then Witchhunters and Tau should be updated next. I've only seen -one- Necron army do well in casual and competitive gaming. It comprised of two monoliths and as many Warriors and Destroyers as possible.

The new GK dex is no more OP then the crons when they came out. I realized this when i was playing a standard marine list and was outnumbered 4 to 1. We have some new hinky special rules that are irritating to play against but are by no means impossiable to overcome.

As it stands, marines ATSKNF should account for the same amount of points as we'll be back. they have a seargent (1 more attack) they have better initiative. with gauss weapons we should be the same price, not 2 points more.

KingmanHighborn wrote:And I was misunderstand on being ran over, as it meant more like being mauled like losing 8 out of 10 for example. And with thier Ld 10 it'll take a lot to make them take a difficult LD test to run. So unless you do kill all of the squad in one go, they will come back good as new.

In your case when they lose 8 of 10, only remaining two strike back and even if both of them cause a wound, they still lose the combat 8 to 2 so take -8 Ld modifier. You should check page 44 of the BRB.

KingmanHighborn wrote:And it amazes me how Necron players will whine even when they table update armies with ease.

Then may I ask those necron players to share their wisdom with a fellow necron player. Because only time I tabled an up to date army, it was pure luck (Longfang spam rolling 1s, etc.) and stressful.

Currently necrons are fundamentally flawed. We are weak at cc but ok at mid-range. However there is no more mid-range in the era of fast skimmer transports. Necrons need a new codex, not for op units or rules, that you think we want, but for a definition of our new role.

Edit: Spelling.

agreed.

we are no longer the shooting army we were. You cant really call yourself a shooting army when your specialty is mid range combat. By then most cc armies are one or two turns from you and you dont have the range to hammer current shooting armies.

Deadshot wrote:
Ward's writing.Doesn't count IMO.

Yes, GW downgrades every army with every new release except for in books written by Mat Ward, which account for about half of the 40k books from the last year. Oh, and Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, and Space Wolves. You don't know what you're talking about.

In fact, the ONLY downgraded codex to come out in 5th edition would be Tyranids. Even Orks can still compete and their book was written on the tail end of 4th ed.

KingmanHighborn wrote:I haven't been shown jack squat. As at 18 points they are fair, and are better then the average marine model.

Well, actually, you have. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge it and keep saying "Yeah they are!" without making any actual points speaks volumes.

KingmanHighborn wrote:And you proved my point. When you lose 9 times out of ten, even when being a cheesy power gamer then you might have a case. Until then, my points stand firm.

This doesn't make sense. Clearly you aren't even reading what other people are writing.

And what points? The only point you make is the repeated and incorrect assertion that Necrons aren't overcosted.

I'm not the font of knowledge when it comes to Necrons, but I'm sure they'd fair a lot better if their points values were brought down to 'modern' levels?
My friend has a (very dusty, sun deprived) necron army and IIRC he said there is actually only 1 valid list that you can create with 500 points. Something has got to be wrong there surely...?

That is correct. With Crons you have only 1 list that is a legal list in a 500 point game.