Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
I've never heard of the Imperium purging planets wholescale because there are too many people on them. Could you provide a source please?
Still, the Imperium is better. The Imperial forces have a tendency to fight for humanity and for their loved ones, with admittedly corrupt and self-serving elements. Chaos forces however, are primarily devoted towards their own selfish gains. Whether they think their chosen Chaos God (or Gods) will reward in the afterlife or they're trying to attain Daemonhood, they are generally not trying help humanity as a whole.
If by devoted to their gods mean they slaughter and sacrifice as many people they can for their own selfish gain then I would prefer the Imperium where their is order. The Imperium doesn't kill it's people for no reason it always comes down to acceptible losses. We can either nuke this planet being nomed by Tyranids or let the fleet go and destoy the entire sector.
I prefer the Imperium, since individual members of that faction can in fact be good. There is no such thing as a good-hearted devotee of Chaos. That is, of course a personal preference, and other peoples' opinions are just as valid as mine.
I would say Salamanders are about as "good" as a SM chapter can be in the Imperium. I have never read anything about them sacrificing innocents. Read something about them giving crap to a chapter that killed some people or guard during Armageddon. They also live amongst their people when not out in the galaxy killing the "bad" guys. That is unless all of this has been retconned in some way.
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
It's easy to paint a faction as villain or hero when you use no facts and just make gak up.
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
Oh look, another Imperial hate thread. Like we don't have enough of this....
And Tau fans are telling us something.....
Ok, several things:
-You are obviously pointing at Chaos as "good guys". You must be sadomasochist or something when you are siding with Chaos.
-We already have this thread.
-Stop Trolling Imperial players.
Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.
Chaos, though, takes a billion people who aren't being tortured OR murdered as a personal affront.
And the "devoted follower of their god" thing swings both ways.
Arturius wrote:Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.
Please source for this "torture", and they won't kill billions of people - only when it's absoluteness necessarily ( Chaos corruption, xeno influence or rebellion ). And even those "rich" and "noble" are under the eye of the Inquisition so that they can't do certain things ( rebellion ). As for mutants, Age of Strife anyone? And aliens - Dark Eldar ( nuff said ).
The Imperium is not nice, but that is the price of 30.000 years of alien attacked and near extinction. They are only doing certain things because that will insure the survival of Mankind. As I said earlier, it is easy to judge people when you have everything and when you are not in their position.
Chaos, though, takes a billion people who aren't being tortured OR murdered as a personal affront.
And the "devoted follower of their god" thing swings both ways.
Only if you like for your soul to become someone's toy or food.
Arturius wrote:Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.
Please source for this "torture",
Absolutely anything related to the Inquisition or the Ecclesiarchy? FFS, the Ministorium has a war machine that's just a tortured guy hooked up to a bunch of buzsaws and flamethrowers.
and they won't kill billions of people - only when it's absoluteness necessarily ( Chaos corruption, xeno influence or rebellion )
Potential Chaos corruption. The big =][= depopulated Armageddon on the assumption that some of the population was corrupted, or at least would talk, so the best thing to do is wipe out the population.
. And even those "rich" and "noble" are under the eye of the Inquisition so that they can't do certain things ( rebellion ).
Loyalists can get away with a lot. Especially connected, powerful loyalists.
As for mutants, Age of Strife anyone? And aliens - Dark Eldar ( nuff said ).
The Age of Strife was caused by robots, not mutants. The Imperium hates deviance from their master template of racial arrangemen. When a hive world eliminated nearly its entire population in search of genetic purity, the place was a pilgrimage site for the Ministorium until the Templars learned that there was Chaos muckery about. So the issue isn't murdering billions of people, it's who you pray to when you do it.
As far as aliens go, the Dark Eldar are donkey-caves. The Imperial Creed doesn't differentiate between them, and all the xenos whose sinister plots consist of "raise a family and not be on fire."
Chaos, though, takes a billion people who aren't being tortured OR murdered as a personal affront.
And the "devoted follower of their god" thing swings both ways.
Only if you like for your soul to become someone's toy or food.
Him On Earth snacks on souls, too. But my point is that you can't give the chaos followers the 'devoted to their god' pass without giving the Imperials the same.
Brother Coa wrote:Please source for this "torture", and they won't kill billions of people - only when it's absoluteness necessarily ( Chaos corruption, xeno influence or rebellion ). And even those "rich" and "noble" are under the eye of the Inquisition so that they can't do certain things ( rebellion ). As for mutants, Age of Strife anyone? And aliens - Dark Eldar ( nuff said ).
The Imperium is not nice, but that is the price of 30.000 years of alien attacked and near extinction. They are only doing certain things because that will insure the survival of Mankind. As I said earlier, it is easy to judge people when you have everything and when you are not in their position.
Only if you like for your soul to become someone's toy or food.
The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.
Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.
Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?
Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.
The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.
Here's the main difference between the Imperium and the Eye of Terror: Law and Chaos. Law isn't necessarily good (totalitarian dictatorships are lawful for example) and Chaos isn't necessarily evil (Hippies are chaotic, lol). The Imperium is an insane bureaucracy that barely values human life in favor of the survival of their empire. Chaos on the other hand is a collection of loosely based warbands and governments that are selfish and strife with infighting.
Chaos is hardly the good guy here:
They may be devoted to their god, but only to advance themselves.
The imperium is also not good, but i would say they are more neutral if anything, they won't just purge a world because it's fun, they would do so because it's necessary.
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk America who murders countries of entire populations cause they have too many fricken bullets, or a Al-Qaeda who are just deoted followers of their god?
Fixed. I hope you realize how silly that post sounds now.
Arturius wrote:tortured guy hooked up to a bunch of buzsaws and flamethrowers.
No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.
Potential Chaos corruption. The big =][= depopulated Armageddon on the assumption that some of the population was corrupted, or at least would talk, so the best thing to do is wipe out the population.
Poor example, Armageddon was swarming with Daemons and half of it's population already fell to the corruption before Space Wolves came. And it was Grey Knights who have the custom to kill and purge their allies after battles with Daemons. I would do the same, it would be like evacuating half of town population from zombie infected city - better to kill them all then to risk another epidemic.
Loyalists can get away with a lot. Especially connected, powerful loyalists.
Yeah, we saw what happened to Vanire at the end. And to various planetary Governors who wanted their own little empire...
The Age of Strife was caused by robots, not mutants. The Imperium hates deviance from their master template of racial arrangemen. When a hive world eliminated nearly its entire population in search of genetic purity, the place was a pilgrimage site for the Ministorium until the Templars learned that there was Chaos muckery about. So the issue isn't murdering billions of people, it's who you pray to when you do it.
"There were two causes leading to the end of the Age of Technology and the beginning of the Age of Strife: the first was the sudden appearance of psykers on every human world. The second was the massive and persistent Warp storms erupting around the Sol System and other parts of the galaxy." No robots anywhere, and robots cause the begining of DAoT,. not AoS.
As far as aliens go, the Dark Eldar are donkey-caves. The Imperial Creed doesn't differentiate between them, and all the xenos whose sinister plots consist of "raise a family and not be on fire."
And you find me an alien who doesn't want to kill Human on sight ( Tau would sterilize us then use as as canon fodder and Eldar would just use us and left us to die so even they don't count ).
Him On Earth snacks on souls, too. But my point is that you can't give the chaos followers the 'devoted to their god' pass without giving the Imperials the same.
Those psykers wouldn't be lucky if they stayed alive at all. They would end up as Daemon food or worse. In this way their suffering os over and they help preserving Human race. What could be more noble?
Brother Coa wrote:No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.
No it isn't.
One of the two pilots is male.
The Penitent Engine is a form of criminal punishment. It's considered a worse punishment than Arco-Flagellation. Arco-Flagellation and consignment to a Penitent Engine are punishments given out by the Imperial Church to the worst heretics and criminals.
Brother Coa wrote:No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.
No it isn't.
One of the two pilots is male.
Then the other one must be a priest or missionary or something ( DoW:SS model only have females, I didn't know males are hooked up to ). Two pilots? I only saw 1...
There is no way they would let worshiper of Chaos to be hooked up there, that's the war machine - the chance hir him to turn on them is great.
Brother Coa wrote:No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.
No it isn't.
One of the two pilots is male.
Then the other one must be a priest or missionary or something ( DoW:SS model only have females, I didn't know males are hooked up to ). Two pilots? I only saw 1... There is no way they would let worshiper of Chaos to be hooked up there, that's the war machine
Yes they would. In fact, worshippers of Chaos are the ideal candidates the "driver" isn't actually in control of the vehicle anyway, but that aside, s/he's drugged up and tortured until he desires nothing but redemption. It's a psychological warfare death machine.
Sisters that end up in such a situation where they would be punished for a crime worthy of arco-flagellation (something that is unlikely to begin with) would instead be sent to the Repentia to earn their redemption in death that way.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.
Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?
Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.
Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...
Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?
Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.
Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.
I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight. And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )
The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.
It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?
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Melissia wrote:Yes they would. In fact, worshippers of Chaos are the ideal candidates the "driver" isn't actually in control of the vehicle anyway, but that aside, s/he's drugged up and tortured until he desires nothing but redemption. It's a psychological warfare death machine.
Sisters that end up in such a situation where they would be punished for a crime worthy of arco-flagellation (something that is unlikely to begin with) would instead be sent to the Repentia to earn their redemption in death that way.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.
Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?
The Imperium is REALLY BAD at sorting out loyal subjects out from purges of renegades, and they don't particularly care if they do. "Better to slaughter a thousand innocents than let one follower of the Damon escape," to paraphrase the corebook. This is the same Imperium where a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting the court's time. And after all, if you're not sure whether someone is loyal, what's a good way to find out if they're heretics? (Hint: it's torture!)
Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.
Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...
So...? The loyal soldiers of the Imperium, who bravely stood against the hordes of Chaos, were worked to death in slave labor camps because Big =][= assumed some of the Guardsmen would either succumb to Chaos or talk about what happened, so it's best to kill them all to avoid the risk.
Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?
Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.
The Age of Strife was mostly attributed to the Iron Men, and even the psyker thing is a dodge. The Imperium's policy on humans whose genetic alterations makes them look ugly and/or weird is either "grudgingly tolerate while exploiting for slave labor" on the benevolent end. Usually it's just "set them on fire."
Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.
I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight.
There's a difference between 'humanity first' and 'purge anything that isn't human, and you can't be a traitor if you never joined the Imperium in the first place.
And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )
The Tau DON'T want to kill humans, they want humans to work for them, which isn't great but is still better than the Imperium's position. Kroot are as happy to work for humans as anyone else. Demiurg seem to have no issue with humans. The aliens in the fleet the Children and Hands wiped out were happy to have human members. This is off the top of my head, and it's ignoring the fact that any alien is likely to have an issue with humanity because the humans are trying to commit genocide on them. Not exactly a source of warm fuzzy feelings.
The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.
It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?
It's not justified. Yes, the Grim Darkness of the Forty-First Millenium is an unbearably horrible place, and there's no one who can't afford to be on a war footing 24/7, but the Imperium's genetic perfection master race manifest destiny schtick is horrible without necessarily being useful, and it absolutely does result in the deaths of people who haven't done anything wrong or anything that would harm the Imperium.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.
Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?
The Imperium is REALLY BAD at sorting out loyal subjects out from purges of renegades, and they don't particularly care if they do. "Better to slaughter a thousand innocents than let one follower of the Damon escape," to paraphrase the corebook. This is the same Imperium where a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting the court's time. And after all, if you're not sure whether someone is loyal, what's a good way to find out if they're heretics? (Hint: it's torture!)
Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.
Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...
So...? The loyal soldiers of the Imperium, who bravely stood against the hordes of Chaos, were worked to death in slave labor camps because Big =][= assumed some of the Guardsmen would either succumb to Chaos or talk about what happened, so it's best to kill them all to avoid the risk.
Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?
Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.
The Age of Strife was mostly attributed to the Iron Men, and even the psyker thing is a dodge. The Imperium's policy on humans whose genetic alterations makes them look ugly and/or weird is either "grudgingly tolerate while exploiting for slave labor" on the benevolent end. Usually it's just "set them on fire."
Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.
I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight.
There's a difference between 'humanity first' and 'purge anything that isn't human, and you can't be a traitor if you never joined the Imperium in the first place.
And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )
The Tau DON'T want to kill humans, they want humans to work for them, which isn't great but is still better than the Imperium's position. Kroot are as happy to work for humans as anyone else. Demiurg seem to have no issue with humans. The aliens in the fleet the Children and Hands wiped out were happy to have human members. This is off the top of my head, and it's ignoring the fact that any alien is likely to have an issue with humanity because the humans are trying to commit genocide on them. Not exactly a source of warm fuzzy feelings.
The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.
It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?
It's not justified. Yes, the Grim Darkness of the Forty-First Millenium is an unbearably horrible place, and there's no one who can't afford to be on a war footing 24/7, but the Imperium's genetic perfection master race manifest destiny schtick is horrible without necessarily being useful, and it absolutely does result in the deaths of people who haven't done anything wrong or anything that would harm the Imperium.
For all lot this I will just say: no, you are wrong.
Like I said: it is easy to judge someone from a comfy warm chair in a comfy warm home...
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are. The proff is continued existence of Mankind, since in either way we would be a slaves to aliens or dead.
Whether the Imperium's space-Nazi levels of repressive brutality are actually necessary for their continued survival (which is arguable, to say the least) the Imperium is not just committing necessary evils for the ultimate good. They hold the murder of people who look too different from the human norm as a great moral good, and encourage the worst aspects of human nature in getting the populace to accept this.
There is no truly "good" faction, true. However Chaos is a more destructive and evil force then the Imperium, and you'll find many upstanding and truly caring/generous Imperial citizens who just want to advance the wellness of others. The same is not true with Chaos. By and large being part of the Imperium is much better then Chaos, despite all the atrocities, oppression, and destruction the Imperium is capable of.
Arturius wrote:Whether the Imperium's space-Nazi levels of repressive brutality are actually necessary for their continued survival (which is arguable, to say the least) the Imperium is not just committing necessary evils for the ultimate good. They hold the murder of people who look too different from the human norm as a great moral good, and encourage the worst aspects of human nature in getting the populace to accept this.
If your referring to mutants, they are tolerated. Look at Ratlings and Ogres both can contribute to humanity and are natural mutations so not actively killed. Their are also different kinds of mutants living in the Imperium seen in Ravenor, Eisenhorn, and other places. There is segregation but that isn't because of Imperial law it's the fact that most people don't hang out with a guy if he's got four eyes. The only mutants they actively kill are chaos tainted, easy to tell the difference as you are born with a natural mutation and chaos mutants are randomly sprouting tentacles.
If referring to Xenos the feeling is mutual to all races. The Eldar see us as monkeys with flashlights to be used and thrown away, and Tau think the same way as humans in the greater good are made sterile slowly killing them off while still looking pure of purpose. Orks smash us, Nids eat us, Crons harvest us, nobody likes us. As for killing the Diasporex that was a most likely a mistake, but was likely caused by distrust as before this the Xenos allied Interex attacked Horus during negotiations before finding out what actually happened.
If I had aliens killing my people for over 30.000 years I would hate everything non-Human to. And today in some countries is moral good to kill a muslim, and in some is moral good to kill a christian - that's the result of 2000 year old hate now imagine that in 38.000 years....
Arturius wrote:Whether the Imperium's space-Nazi levels of repressive brutality are actually necessary for their continued survival (which is arguable, to say the least) the Imperium is not just committing necessary evils for the ultimate good. They hold the murder of people who look too different from the human norm as a great moral good, and encourage the worst aspects of human nature in getting the populace to accept this.
If your referring to mutants, they are tolerated. Look at Ratlings and Ogres both can contribute to humanity and are natural mutations so not actively killed. Their are also different kinds of mutants living in the Imperium seen in Ravenor, Eisenhorn, and other places. There is segregation but that isn't because of Imperial law it's the fact that most people don't hang out with a guy if he's got four eyes. The only mutants they actively kill are chaos tainted, easy to tell the difference as you are born with a natural mutation and chaos mutants are randomly sprouting tentacles.
When a planet of 14 billion culled itself down to 2.5 million, the planet became a holy site where people traveled to marvel at the faith displayed by the population. Abhumans are, sometimes, in proper situations, tolerated and allowed to live by the Imperium, albeit as despised second-class citizens that don't enjoy even the rights afforded to the populace.
Also, it's not necessarily as easy to tell whether a guy was born with tentacles or sprouted them after a virgin sacrifice, unless you were there with him. Here we get into the Imperium's whole "burn them all, just in case" philosophy.
If referring to Xenos the feeling is mutual to all races. The Eldar see us as monkeys with flashlights to be used and thrown away, and Tau think the same way as humans in the greater good are made sterile slowly killing them off while still looking pure of purpose. Orks smash us, Nids eat us, Crons harvest us, nobody likes us. As for killing the Diasporex that was a most likely a mistake, but was likely caused by distrust as before this the Xenos allied Interex attacked Horus during negotiations before finding out what actually happened.
Is the whole "Tau sterilize human populations to wipe them out" referenced anywhere out of the video game? Other than that, yes, the major players in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future are all psychotic or evil. The ones who aren't don't take up a lot of screen time, because it generally plays like the Disporex. The aliens say "please don't shoot me in the face," the humans shoot them in the face and take their stuff. It's like Zap Brannigan's heroic carpet-bombing of Eden VII.
Brother Coa wrote:If I had aliens killing my people for over 30.000 years I would hate everything non-Human to. And today in some countries is moral good to kill a muslim, and in some is moral good to kill a christian - that's the result of 2000 year old hate now imagine that in 38.000 years....
These are small segments of the population, and they aren't regarded very well because they're hateful and ignorant. In the Imperium, though, hate and ignorance are virtues, so it works out. Of course, the Imperium's exultation of ignorance also means that, if they drop a computer and it stopped working, it's because the spirit of the computer was offended when they dropped it and must be placated.
Brother Coa wrote:Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?
Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...
Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.
I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight. And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )
It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?
1. Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, for one. He's notorious for executing anyone for the mere SUSPICION of heresy.
"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."
Does he execute people who turned out to be heretics? Sure, of course it happens. But it is also known he has sent at the least thousands of innocents to their deaths, torturing them for information that did not exist.
2. Why yes, yes I have. But someone who just "heard" of the fighting is not going to start spontaneously worshipping Chaos, and sending the brave men and women who fought along-side the Marines to slave camps to work themselves to death is not justified. I dislike the Space Wolves and their practices on a whole but fact of the matter is that they were justified in their anger over that incident.
3. Yeah man cause killing and purging people who look different or are a little different than the ideal of the "Master Race" is completely justified!
And the rulebook credits the Age of Strife with the appearance of massive Warp Storms isolating settlements of humanity, and Mankind's over-reliance on technology, and man is then beset by Daemons, admittedly likely due to the growing numbers of psykers. I will admit their caution in handling psykers is completely necessary, since psykers can act as a portal to the Warp that a Daemon or similar things can come through, which is obviously bad.
But their purging of other mutants who deviate too far from the norm is not, and so you know, Abhumans didn't really begin appearing until during or after the Age of Strife, it being the reason for their existence. Ogryns and Ratlings are tolerated because they are not "too" deviated and are useful, but any that deviates too much or isn't too useful is purged for the crime of not resembling the "perfect" Master Race.
4. Dude are you serious? How can you "betray" something you didn't even knew existed until five minutes ago? It is in fact morally reprehensible to try to bully other civilizations into joining you, and ethnically cleansing them if they are different.
The xenos of the Diasphorex alliance bore no ill will towards humans, as I said. The Kroot also bear no ill-will towards humanity, they have in fact worked for humans as mercenaries on numerous occasions. The Demiurg don't mind humans either. The Jokaero are also friendly towards humans, and to humanity's credit they have shown unusual open-mindness towards utilising their unique attributes for themselves while also keeping them pretty happy.
Do some Xenos want humanity dead? Absolutely, you won't find me complaining about humans trying to purge Necrons, Tyranids, Orkz, hell, even Eldar or Tau at some cases. But a lot of the reason almost every xeno race hates them (The Eldar for instance) is because of their remarkably xenophobic nature, and their "Manifest Destiny" crap, their belief that it is their divine right to purge all other sentient life from the galaxy just because. This trait was present even when the Emperor was around, and was in fact promoted by him.
5. Blahblahblah buttmad Imperium fanboy, heard it all before.
If you want to play a "good" faction, go play the Tau. And even they are not saints.
Brother Coa wrote:For all lot this I will just say: no, you are wrong.
Like I said: it is easy to judge someone from a comfy warm chair in a comfy warm home...
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are. The proff is continued existence of Mankind, since in either way we would be a slaves to aliens or dead.
Except that machines in the Imperium really do have spirits residing in them. Perhaps not "ghosts" in the literal sense, but definitely something at least semi-sentient.
Why is the order given to exterminate the Xenos? Because the Emperor said so. It was, to the Emperor, Mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars. Was he wrong? We'll never know... but we do know that, human aggression or not, there's plenty of really, really nasty xenos out there who would like nothing more than to kill/enslave/devour humankind. Some overtly, through warfare, others covertly, through gene-stealing cults or psycho-somatic symbiotic relations to shadowy crime cartels that feed living humans up to their alien overlords.
It is, for the sake of Mankind, best not to risk the chance that this "friendly" xeno race is not really a bunch of slavering ghouls. Kill them all.
The mutant is abhorred because it is, quite possibly, Chaos-taint made evident in the flesh. Ratlings and Ogryns aren't technically mutants, they're ab-humans. Genetically human, reshaped by their environments, and able to breed true. Other mutants, the kinds with multiple eyes, tentacles, and all that... are not able to breed more mutants that share their abnormalities. Even the ones who are mutated by exposure to radiation or pollution generally cannot breed, as these hazards have sterilized them.
It's like I said in another post... what we consider "right and wrong" or"good and evil" here in the 20th century has absolutely no bearing on the reality of life in the 41st millennia.
Also, really, "the Emperor said so" isn't an argument, the words of an idiot shouldn't be taken as holy gospel.
But they are, and it's a very, very valid argument when discussing why people do what they do in the name of their religion.
Religion as a justification is a flimsy one at best.
And that just means the religion itself is inherently flawed, even "evil," and even so, that is just an "interpretation," religion can be used for evil, even if the religion itself is not inherently so.
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Chaos- Want to destroy everything.
Imperium- Kill stuff cuz they have to.
I think it has been fairly well established that far from all of the imperium's attrocities are justified. Hells alot of the Imperium problems come from it's extreme and often counterproductive dogmatism.
That Chaos wants to destroy everything is also wrong. Chaos ultimately wants to corrupt.
Still, the Imperium of Man appears to be ( at least most of the time, there seem to be at least some chaos dominated worlds where life isn't that bad ) the lesser of both evils.
Psienesis wrote:Except that machines in the Imperium really do have spirits residing in them. Perhaps not "ghosts" in the literal sense, but definitely something at least semi-sentient.
Some particularly advanced machines do, yeah. Titans, land raiders, warships. Usually, I've seen the explanation refer to a biological brain, either vat-grown or taken from an animal, hooked up to the machine's system.
I'm talking about basic systems. "Pulling the trigger is a plea for your bolter to loose its round. If it does not obey, its spirit is displeased, whether by rough treatment or failure to perform the rites and rituals of maintenance."
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
I've never heard of the Imperium purging planets wholescale because there are too many people on them. Could you provide a source please?
Still, the Imperium is better. The Imperial forces have a tendency to fight for humanity and for their loved ones, with admittedly corrupt and self-serving elements. Chaos forces however, are primarily devoted towards their own selfish gains. Whether they think their chosen Chaos God (or Gods) will reward in the afterlife or they're trying to attain Daemonhood, they are generally not trying help humanity as a whole.
You know, thinking about it, different aspects of Chaos have different moralities. Also, as far as I am aware, information about the afterlife in 40k is vague and mostly inaccurate.
Chaos Undivided-Generally these guys are selfish and ambitious and short tempered. Most joined Chaos to further themselves, but some joined to escape from the corrupt Imperium or because they were misled. Overall these guys are about as bad as the Imperium, but in a different way. Rather than having too little freedom their organizations have too much.
Khorne-These guys constantly kill due to the adrenaline rush and feeling of superiority and power that comes with it. Definitely way worse than the Imperium. Their own decent quality is their devotion to Khorne and their willingness to die for him, but since Khorne is evil its not a very good thing that they're devote to him.
Tzeentch-Ambition, manipulation and scheming at its finest. These guys are selfish and cruel and egotistical. About as bad as the Imperium.
Nurgle-They have a similar survival of the fittest attitude as the Imperium and are sometimes cruel but not much beyond that. They're surprisingly kind and nonjudgemental, kindly welcoming new worshippers into the Cult of Nurgle. I'd say these guys are a little better than the Imperium.
Slaanesh-Drug Addicts, Sense Freaks and vain maniacs, Slaanesh Worshippers (such as my army, huzzah) are easily far worse than the Imperium. Don't wanna get on the bad side of these guys (or on their good side for that matter).
Most of the people speack of the truth here.
Chaos:
- Fight for Selfish needs (Some are truly devoted to their masters, daemons, and Gods. But only some)
-Lack of Sanity
Said enough? (by the way dont get me wrong Im a chaos fan)
Imperium:
- Some of the leaders are evil but many of the people are human (meaning that they can feel most feelings)
-The leaders might fight for their selfish reasons but the people (space marines, sisters of battle, imperial guards) fight for humanity, Emperor, love, for their home lands, and on.
I can bring in more differences between both sides but I think this is enough.
What I like about the 40k world is that there is no evil or good. They make it realistic, good people do bad things and bad people do good things.
Brother Coa wrote:Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?
Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...
Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.
I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight. And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )
It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?
1. Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, for one. He's notorious for executing anyone for the mere SUSPICION of heresy.
"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."
Does he execute people who turned out to be heretics? Sure, of course it happens. But it is also known he has sent at the least thousands of innocents to their deaths, torturing them for information that did not exist.
2. Why yes, yes I have. But someone who just "heard" of the fighting is not going to start spontaneously worshipping Chaos, and sending the brave men and women who fought along-side the Marines to slave camps to work themselves to death is not justified. I dislike the Space Wolves and their practices on a whole but fact of the matter is that they were justified in their anger over that incident.
3. Yeah man cause killing and purging people who look different or are a little different than the ideal of the "Master Race" is completely justified!
And the rulebook credits the Age of Strife with the appearance of massive Warp Storms isolating settlements of humanity, and Mankind's over-reliance on technology, and man is then beset by Daemons, admittedly likely due to the growing numbers of psykers. I will admit their caution in handling psykers is completely necessary, since psykers can act as a portal to the Warp that a Daemon or similar things can come through, which is obviously bad.
But their purging of other mutants who deviate too far from the norm is not, and so you know, Abhumans didn't really begin appearing until during or after the Age of Strife, it being the reason for their existence. Ogryns and Ratlings are tolerated because they are not "too" deviated and are useful, but any that deviates too much or isn't too useful is purged for the crime of not resembling the "perfect" Master Race.
4. Dude are you serious? How can you "betray" something you didn't even knew existed until five minutes ago? It is in fact morally reprehensible to try to bully other civilizations into joining you, and ethnically cleansing them if they are different.
The xenos of the Diasphorex alliance bore no ill will towards humans, as I said. The Kroot also bear no ill-will towards humanity, they have in fact worked for humans as mercenaries on numerous occasions. The Demiurg don't mind humans either. The Jokaero are also friendly towards humans, and to humanity's credit they have shown unusual open-mindness towards utilising their unique attributes for themselves while also keeping them pretty happy.
Do some Xenos want humanity dead? Absolutely, you won't find me complaining about humans trying to purge Necrons, Tyranids, Orkz, hell, even Eldar or Tau at some cases. But a lot of the reason almost every xeno race hates them (The Eldar for instance) is because of their remarkably xenophobic nature, and their "Manifest Destiny" crap, their belief that it is their divine right to purge all other sentient life from the galaxy just because. This trait was present even when the Emperor was around, and was in fact promoted by him.
5. Blahblahblah buttmad Imperium fanboy, heard it all before.
If you want to play a "good" faction, go play the Tau. And even they are not saints.
Brother Coa wrote:For all lot this I will just say: no, you are wrong.
Like I said: it is easy to judge someone from a comfy warm chair in a comfy warm home...
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are. The proff is continued existence of Mankind, since in either way we would be a slaves to aliens or dead.
"No u" isn't an argument.
And all of that is justified, I just don't want to go into details. All I can say is: it is all justified, and of course - there will always be individuals who are bad. But I won't judge entire race for 1 fool ( example: I would hate Tau for massacring the civilians at Nimbosa by order of their mad commander. Or Imperials because they let man like Vandire get hold of power ). On the other hand servants of Chaos are 99% bad so they are hated.
Please don't use slowed as a synonym for bad/stupid/boring/other negative adjectives. And if you think Dakka's so awful ... well, it's a big internet. Thanks, Manchu.
Nurgle-They have a similar survival of the fittest attitude as the Imperium and are sometimes cruel but not much beyond that. They're surprisingly kind and nonjudgemental, kindly welcoming new worshippers into the Cult of Nurgle. I'd say these guys are a little better than the Imperium.
Excepting that to "come to the Cult of Nurgle" is to become infected with some sort of horrible pestilence that you can give to other people who look at you, even if you are just on TV.
Nurgle's equality is the equality of the grave.
I'm talking about basic systems. "Pulling the trigger is a plea for your bolter to loose its round. If it does not obey, its spirit is displeased, whether by rough treatment or failure to perform the rites and rituals of maintenance."
Yes, that's all pleasing to the War-Spirit of your weapon. If you don't follow the proper protocols, it stops working for you, because the War-Spirit is offended.
Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.
The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.
And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).
Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.
The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.
And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).
...the Imperium has the slaughter of non-human civilians as matter of policy, practice, and divine mandate as decreed by holy scripture.
Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.
The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.
And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).
...the Imperium has the slaughter of non-human civilians as matter of policy, practice, and divine mandate as decreed by holy scripture.
And what part of "30.000 years of constant alien attacks" did you not understand?
And when did Imperium in recent years killed non-Human civilians? I thought that only Tau have civilians now... ( I don't count legion times because World Eaters even eat loyal worlds ).
Well, I would say the Imperium is the "better" of the two factions.
You might get executed/tortured/killed in the Imperium, but usually for some reason. Chaos has this whole MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! attitude towards normal citizens. At least in the Imperium you won't get killed by simple bloodlust, sacrificed for no reason to the chaos gods or stuff like that.
Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.
The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.
And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).
...the Imperium has the slaughter of non-human civilians as matter of policy, practice, and divine mandate as decreed by holy scripture.
And what part of "30.000 years of constant alien attacks" did you not understand?
And when did Imperium in recent years killed non-Human civilians? I thought that only Tau have civilians now... ( I don't count legion times because World Eaters even eat loyal worlds ).
Constant attacks from aliens does not "justify" killing other, completely unrelated, aliens. Murdering someone who has never hurt you, never had cause to hurt you, and never had any interest or intention of hurting you, because someone with nothing to do with your victim keeps attacking you, is pretty much the opposite of justified.
And the Imperium kills alien civilians all the time. Standard first contact procedure is genocide and settlement of the newly uninhabited planet. The Tau were slated for it, except that warp storms made transit to T'au impossible long enough for the tau to advance their position, and become slightly harder to exterminate. The species was just another entry on the big "to exterminate" list.
The 40K galaxy is full of weird aliens, and plenty of civilizations fit in between the cracks of the Codex races. To get attention on a Codex-level scale, for the most part, you need to have a population of trillions and a cultural/biological tendency for massive, unending, apocalyptic warfare. Part of the point of the Tau codex was to show the smaller scale, and give an example of the alien civilizations that usually show up in passing mention.
Constant attacks from aliens does not "justify" killing other, completely unrelated, aliens. Murdering someone who has never hurt you, never had cause to hurt you, and never had any interest or intention of hurting you, because someone with nothing to do with your victim keeps attacking you, is pretty much the opposite of justified.
And the Imperium kills alien civilians all the time. Standard first contact procedure is genocide and settlement of the newly uninhabited planet. The Tau were slated for it, except that warp storms made transit to T'au impossible long enough for the tau to advance their position, and become slightly harder to exterminate. The species was just another entry on the big "to exterminate" list.
The 40K galaxy is full of weird aliens, and plenty of civilizations fit in between the cracks of the Codex races. To get attention on a Codex-level scale, for the most part, you need to have a population of trillions and a cultural/biological tendency for massive, unending, apocalyptic warfare. Part of the point of the Tau codex was to show the smaller scale, and give an example of the alien civilizations that usually show up in passing mention.
Yes it does. It's: "better to kill it now then let him to hurt me later." And Tau are good example of this, if the Imperium wipe them out then - they wouldn't have any problems now around their region of space. So I see the extermination of aliens in 40k justified, they don't like us - so they can only die in that case.
And once an alien - always an alien.... Glory to the Mankind
Brother Coa wrote:And all of that is justified, I just don't want to go into details. All I can say is: it is all justified, and of course - there will always be individuals who are bad. But I won't judge entire race for 1 fool ( example: I would hate Tau for massacring the civilians at Nimbosa by order of their mad commander. Or Imperials because they let man like Vandire get hold of power ). On the other hand servants of Chaos are 99% bad so they are hated.
Plugging your ears and screaming "Nanananananana" also is not an argument.
Karamazov isn't just an individual, his actions are often lauded and rewarded by the Imperium.
Stop talking about Chaos. If you actually read my posts you would know that I already said that the majority of Chaos worshippers are morally more reprehensible than the Imperium, only an idiot would deny that (Though whether or not Chaos is "evil" is debateable), but fact of the matter is not every atrocity the Imperium makes is justified, nor is it truly presented as such.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes it does. It's: "better to kill it now then let him to hurt me later." And Tau are good example of this, if the Imperium wipe them out then - they wouldn't have any problems now around their region of space. So I see the extermination of aliens in 40k justified, they don't like us - so they can only die in that case.
And once an alien - always an alien.... Glory to the Mankind
There is a possibility everyone you meet may hurt you later.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, not EVERY xeno in 40k wishes to kill humanity, the Diasphorex example being by far the most prominent example. Do said non-threatening xenos get as much exposure? No, but that is because all the factions need to have a reason to fight eachother, aka, they all need to be hostile.
Seriously, I don't know how you can sit there and claim that the Space Nazis (Seriously, that's what they are) are completely justified in every action.
They believe that they are the only sentient race that deserves to exist in the galaxy by virtue of the "racial purity" of the human form, they are all massively bigoted, and the Imperium promotes ignorance as a virtue.
Your "argument" (If you can truly call such debating techniques such as "No u" and "Nah ah I'm right ur wraung") falls apart when one begins to apply any sort of rational logic to it.
Brother Coa wrote:And all of that is justified, I just don't want to go into details. All I can say is: it is all justified, and of course - there will always be individuals who are bad. But I won't judge entire race for 1 fool ( example: I would hate Tau for massacring the civilians at Nimbosa by order of their mad commander. Or Imperials because they let man like Vandire get hold of power ). On the other hand servants of Chaos are 99% bad so they are hated.
Plugging your ears and screaming "Nanananananana" also is not an argument.
Karamazov isn't just an individual, his actions are often lauded and rewarded by the Imperium.
Stop talking about Chaos. If you actually read my posts you would know that I already said that the majority of Chaos worshippers are morally more reprehensible than the Imperium, only an idiot would deny that (Though whether or not Chaos is "evil" is debateable), but fact of the matter is not every atrocity the Imperium makes is justified, nor is it truly presented as such.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes it does. It's: "better to kill it now then let him to hurt me later." And Tau are good example of this, if the Imperium wipe them out then - they wouldn't have any problems now around their region of space. So I see the extermination of aliens in 40k justified, they don't like us - so they can only die in that case. And once an alien - always an alien.... Glory to the Mankind
There is a possibility everyone you meet may hurt you later.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, not EVERY xeno in 40k wishes to kill humanity, the Diasphorex example being by far the most prominent example. Do said non-threatening xenos get as much exposure? No, but that is because all the factions need to have a reason to fight eachother, aka, they all need to be hostile.
Seriously, I don't know how you can sit there and claim that the Space Nazis (Seriously, that's what they are) are completely justified in every action.
They believe that they are the only sentient race that deserves to exist in the galaxy by virtue of the "racial purity" of the human form, they are all massively bigoted, and the Imperium promotes ignorance as a virtue.
Your "argument" (If you can truly call such debating techniques such as "No u" and "Nah ah I'm right ur wraung") falls apart when one begins to apply any sort of rational logic to it.
Please stop.
Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).
And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!
Brother Coa wrote:Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).
And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!
So basically your argument is: Bigotry is good.
I suppose rational logic cannot be applied to 40k, in that the Imperium is populated largely by idiots and the ignorant.
Much of what Mankind does doesn't help them, it is detrimental to them.
You're barking up the wrong tree with that "Heresy" stuff, you're just crops to be harvested to me.
Brother Coa wrote:
Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).
And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!
So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically your argument is: Bigotry is good.
It is when the alternative is a horrible, horrible death. Even in today's society, if it meant escaping species-wide extinction, we'd dress up in a uniform and sing the campfire song song around burn-piles of our enemy (and we'd still label the Nazis evil).
That's the brink Humanity has been pushed to. We've been there for more than 40,000 years.
Void__Dragon wrote:
I suppose rational logic cannot be applied to 40k, in that the Imperium is populated largely by idiots and the ignorant.
Many Imperials may not be educated, but that doesn't mean they aren't any more or less intelligent than you or I.
The Inquisition is certainly some of the most well informed people in the galaxy, and it's rare for them to lose their way. Remember that for every Karamzov you get an Eisenhorn as well.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Much of what Mankind does doesn't help them, it is detrimental to them.
Imperium doesn't put billions to the sword just for the lulz. Everything they do is the result of a 40,000 year history we haven't been a part of.
Prior to the Age of Strife, the Human confederacies had plenty of trade agreements and alliances with xeno empires. When it hit the fan, Humanity turned to their alien allies in the hopes of mutual survival. Instead of aid, Humanity was taken advantage of in their moment of weakness. Lots of people died. Lots of people died. Humanity has not forgotten this. Humanity may have destroyed some potential allies, but as a certain Chapter Master once said: the strong are strongest alone. Better to rely on those of your own species than xenos with their own interests.
Brother Coa wrote:
Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).
And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!
So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?
In the last line maybe. However the rest of what he says is true.
The Tau are a perfect example, in this thing. As you said they were due to be exterminated, but there was a warp storm. Now they are on their way to threatening the safety of humanity. And as I said before the Diashporex was predated by the tragedy that was the Interex. Horus tried to negotiate with Interex, but was attacked over a misunderstanding. The Interex did not give him a chance to clear his name and a war was waged that killed many men of the Imperium. When the choice is between Bigotry and the death of my race I would gladly choose bigotry.
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically your argument is: Bigotry is good.
I suppose rational logic cannot be applied to 40k, in that the Imperium is populated largely by idiots and the ignorant.
Much of what Mankind does doesn't help them, it is detrimental to them.
You're barking up the wrong tree with that "Heresy" stuff, you're just crops to be harvested to me.
And you have now just proven my point: how can I argue with brainless automaton? Why don't you make me a coffee instead of trying implementing logic to unlogical things? And most Human race, even today, is stupid an arrogant. That is in our nature and can't be helped. But that doesn't mean that Humans can't be intelligent ( smart and intelligent isn't the same. Delhin is intelligent but not smart ) and sometimes act wit hreason and compassion. But as for aliens today we would see them as neutral ( friend or foe ) in 40k Humans see them only as a threat. And you are missing the main point here - Mankind is so old now that they know that is the best to kill an alien then to risk them hurting them later.
And you didn't tell anything about Chaos? Tell me what they do that's good?
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illuknisaa wrote: So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?
After seeing what they did to us in the last 40.000 years.... You are right. We must scin them first alive, then bath then in salt and then let them die - on the Sun.
Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.
The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.
And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).
You are saying that the whole of the imperium and its actions are justified.
These are members of the Imperium, therefore their actions were justified, you can't back peddle, it's hardly a few individuals either.
Chaos and the Imperium are not so far removed from each other, they just have different intentions. The Imperium might eradicate a population so that they don't all starve to death, the forces of Chaos might destroy a population for the hell of it.
Not all members of the Inquisition have the best interest of the Imperium at heart. Quixos might have done, but if he was left to achieve his goal, the Imperium would have been doomed.
I think you have been listening to too much Imperial propaganda Coa
Pilau Rice wrote:
I think you have been listening to too much Imperial propaganda Coa
And I think you have been listening to many heretics and alien liars Brother Rice...
Let me redeem you
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Pilau Rice wrote:
You are saying that the whole of the imperium and its actions are justified.
These are members of the Imperium, therefore their actions were justified, you can't back peddle, it's hardly a few individuals either.
Chaos and the Imperium are not so far removed from each other, they just have different intentions. The Imperium might eradicate a population so that they don't all starve to death, the forces of Chaos might destroy a population for the hell of it.
Not all members of the Inquisition have the best interest of the Imperium at heart. Quixos might have done, but if he was left to achieve his goal, the Imperium would have been doomed.
They are, read the entries above. And you must take a whole picture - not just 2 individuals and their agenda.
Brother Coa wrote:
And I think you have been listening to many heretics and alien liars Brother Rice...
Let me redeem you
Spoken like a true follower
Brother Coa wrote:They are, read the entries above. And you must take a whole picture - not just 2 individuals and their agenda.
So because it's justified, it's right is it?
Everyone has their own agenda, the Emperor being the worst of them all. What right did he have to eradicate alien races that had been ancient when he was young?
The whole picture is that the Imperium isn't all smiles and sunshine like you say it is.
Brother Coa wrote:
And I think you have been listening to many heretics and alien liars Brother Rice...
Let me redeem you
Spoken like a true follower
Thanks...
Brother Coa wrote:They are, read the entries above. And you must take a whole picture - not just 2 individuals and their agenda.
So because it's justified, it's right is it?
Everyone has their own agenda, the Emperor being the worst of them all. What right did he have to eradicate alien races that had been ancient when he was young?
The whole picture is that the Imperium isn't all smiles and sunshine like you say it is.
It's not right, but then again - what is right in 40k universe? It's the GRIM DARKNESS, it's nothing pretty ( well, maybe except Eldar and Sisters ).
There is no compassion, no love, no hope, no salvation - only fight for survival. And Humans and Eldar know that the best.
And I didn't say that Imperium is "all smiles and sunshine" - I only said that their methods is what keep Humanity safe from extinction and because of that their actions are justified ( like planet Exterminatus, or population purge due to plague virus... ).
And the Emperor don't hate aliens, there is nowhere mere mention on that. And the thing that his legions do under his sons doesen't count for him being a hater ( if he had true control over his legions you think that Horus Heresy would happened at all ).
And say something about Chaos being the "good guys"? Why only attack Imeprium?
Brother Coa wrote:
And the Emperor don't hate aliens, there is nowhere mere mention on that. And the thing that his legions do under his sons doesen't count for him being a hater ( if he had true control over his legions you think that Horus Heresy would happened at all ).
It was his agenda to unite mankind, what ever got in his way became dead. He lead the forces of the Imperium for pretty much 200 years before Horus was made Warmaster. To say he hated the Alien might be wrong, but to say he would live hand in hand with them is also wrong.
Brother Coa wrote:And say something about Chaos being the "good guys"? Why only attack Imeprium?
Chaos are not the good guys, in any way, i'm just saying nor are the Imperium when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, but they are portrayed to be the good guys in the story.
If you've read Legion you'll see that until the Imperium of man came along, the people of Nurth seemed to be relatively normal and they were Chaos worshipers through and through, to say that all chaos is violence and rape is wrong in my opinion. Stories about these guys wouldn't make for a very entertaining read however.
Ironsight wrote:It is when the alternative is a horrible, horrible death. Even in today's society, if it meant escaping species-wide extinction, we'd dress up in a uniform and sing the campfire song song around burn-piles of our enemy (and we'd still label the Nazis evil).
That's the brink Humanity has been pushed to. We've been there for more than 40,000 years.
Many Imperials may not be educated, but that doesn't mean they aren't any more or less intelligent than you or I.
The Inquisition is certainly some of the most well informed people in the galaxy, and it's rare for them to lose their way. Remember that for every Karamzov you get an Eisenhorn as well.
Imperium doesn't put billions to the sword just for the lulz. Everything they do is the result of a 40,000 year history we haven't been a part of.
Prior to the Age of Strife, the Human confederacies had plenty of trade agreements and alliances with xeno empires. When it hit the fan, Humanity turned to their alien allies in the hopes of mutual survival. Instead of aid, Humanity was taken advantage of in their moment of weakness. Lots of people died. Lots of people died. Humanity has not forgotten this. Humanity may have destroyed some potential allies, but as a certain Chapter Master once said: the strong are strongest alone. Better to rely on those of your own species than xenos with their own interests.
1. Humanity is on the brink of annihilation due to the arrogance and stupidity of the man it worships as a god. Now, while I won't fault them for not realising the Emperor's own shortcomings, since, as a reader, I have a more omniscient view of the situation than the Imperium does. But the Imperium doesn't just kill the alien because it "has" to, they view it as their "right" to, they view human supremacy as their divine right, and have since the days of the Great Crusade. Hell, Fulgrim outright states that the reason they are exterminating the Laer (The extermination of this particular xenos species is not in of itself "wrong" for lack of better term due to them being violent Slaaneshi worshippers, but wrong due to his intent), is because unlike humans, they are not "perfect," and as such are unworthy of living in their vision of a perfect galaxy. This was before Fulgrim began being influenced by Chaos.
And do note that "justified" does not equal "morally good," it's not quite that black and white.
2. That's not really what I meant. The Imperium promotes ignorance as a virtue. Karamazov didn't "lose his way," he's quite the Puritan actually. Doesn't Eisenhorn gradually become more Radical as time goes on? Though really, this is all beside the point.
Another good example is Commander Chenkov. A man who is so incompetent, or so lazy, that he is unable or unwilling to actually form strategies or be tactically flexible as a good commander should be, that he solves every problem by throwing men at it until it's not a problem anymore. "Quantity has a quality all its own," the Stalin approach. Now, while sacrificing men, while not a good action, can be justified if it is necessary, in his case it is not, he's just too lazy or stupid to do otherwise. He is lauded and rewarded by the Imperium for his stupidity.
3. I didn't say they did. Admittedly, I am not particularly well-versed on this time period of Mankind in the fluff, but the only example Lexicanum gives is the Orks as a race that preyed on Mankind while it was weak. I'm not saying that slaughtering every Ork you see is morally reprehensible, that is completely justified, and you would almost have to be insane to not do so.
Relying on your own species is fine, and I could understand being unwilling to propagate "Xenos love," but the Imperium is so outwardly hostile to all Xenos they find that it only incites hostility towards them... Like the Eldar, who treat humanity with disdain as they do largely because of their anti-xenos ways and the Great Crusade. That is but the most prominent example of a race they practically set against them, though it should be said the Eldar are at least willing to cooperate with humanity occasionally.
I am not saying the Imperium is an empire of mustache-twirling cartoon characters, they are more complicated than that, and while some of their actions can be justified, not all are, and their nature in some ways hurts them as much as it helps them. Hence, Grimdark. Obviously, they are one of the less evil factions in 40k. But I would never call them "good."
Nicholas wrote:In the last line maybe. However the rest of what he says is true.
The Tau are a perfect example, in this thing. As you said they were due to be exterminated, but there was a warp storm. Now they are on their way to threatening the safety of humanity. And as I said before the Diashporex was predated by the tragedy that was the Interex. Horus tried to negotiate with Interex, but was attacked over a misunderstanding. The Interex did not give him a chance to clear his name and a war was waged that killed many men of the Imperium. When the choice is between Bigotry and the death of my race I would gladly choose bigotry.
The Interex thought that the taint of Chaos was present on the 63rd Expedition Fleet. They were completely correct, and Erebus, a World Bearer tainted by Chaos, infiltrated some museum of their's and blew it the hell up, stealing a dangerous Daemonblade. Horus was then mortally wounded by Eugen Temba, an Imperial, also tainted by Chaos. The Interex incident wasn't even mentioned by MAnus or anyone during the Diasphorex take-over. Hell, the only argument for why they shouldn't leave them around is "No we shouldn't."
Circular logic was quite popular with the Imperium then and still is, hell, this iterator in Horus Rising whose name I forget outright says, and was greeted with massive applause,"We are not right because we think we are right, we are right because we know we are right!" or something to that effect, unironically ignoring that there is no difference between the two.
Brother Coa wrote:And you have now just proven my point: how can I argue with brainless automaton?
Why don't you make me a coffee instead of trying implementing logic to unlogical things?
And most Human race, even today, is stupid an arrogant. That is in our nature and can't be helped. But that doesn't mean that Humans can't be intelligent ( smart and intelligent isn't the same. Delhin is intelligent but not smart ) and sometimes act wit hreason and compassion. But as for aliens today we would see them as neutral ( friend or foe ) in 40k Humans see them only as a threat.
And you are missing the main point here - Mankind is so old now that they know that is the best to kill an alien then to risk them hurting them later.
And you didn't tell anything about Chaos? Tell me what they do that's good?
So you admit the Imperium is idiotic?
Oh boy oh boy look someone's trying to be cynical! We're stupid, huh? Odd, I could have sworn we are vastly more intelligent than any other species we know of, and objectively, are inherently superior. But the Imperium can't make that claim, since there are other sentient species in the galaxy, every bit as intelligent as they are, or even more-so.
That's the thing, that's what you ignore. If that were truly, honestly, the reason the Imperium purged the xeno, that could "kinda" be considered a real justification. But the Imperium kills the alien due to the fact that they believe them inherently inferior, not as "perfect" as humanity, and for that crime they should die. Prejudice formed from experience is sort of understandable, prejudice formed from arrogance and ignorance is not, though you would be hard-pressed to ever find an example where bigotry is morally "good."
Okay, no, stop it. Read my posts, I have said multiple times that Chaos Cultists are on a whole "worse" than the Imperium, stop bringing up something I answered on the first page.
And stop confusing "Not as bad as some of the other factions" as "Good."
Even if all of their actions are justified, it doesn't make them good. There is a difference.
I feel OP is totally biased, but if anything I would have to go with Imperium due to the fact that even though some branches of the Imperium are a little less moral than others it doens't negate the entirety of good the Imperium wants for humanity. Notice I said Humanity not all of the Xeno Scum patroling the Galaxy...except orks. They cool
This is easily personal preference. According to the lore of Chaos, Chaos holds the universe together, and while Chaos may kill people, those who are not killed live a greater life of freedom and anti-imperialism. However, the Imperium is just trying to protect those not tainted by Chaos, because the human mind is easily corrupted. The Imperium is corrupted in certain plaes, like some in The Adeptus Terra are corrupt, but it is few who can bring the Imperium down. And also, only the Inquisition kills worlds, and thats if it's daemon infested, or xeno infested, and usually Denizens of The Imperium never find out until decades, centuries, or even thousands of years later. I personally prefer the Imperium.
Void__Dragon wrote:So you admit the Imperium is idiotic?
Oh boy oh boy look someone's trying to be cynical! We're stupid, huh? Odd, I could have sworn we are vastly more intelligent than any other species we know of, and objectively, are inherently superior. But the Imperium can't make that claim, since there are other sentient species in the galaxy, every bit as intelligent as they are, or even more-so.
That's the thing, that's what you ignore. If that were truly, honestly, the reason the Imperium purged the xeno, that could "kinda" be considered a real justification. But the Imperium kills the alien due to the fact that they believe them inherently inferior, not as "perfect" as humanity, and for that crime they should die. Prejudice formed from experience is sort of understandable, prejudice formed from arrogance and ignorance is not, though you would be hard-pressed to ever find an example where bigotry is morally "good."
Okay, no, stop it. Read my posts, I have said multiple times that Chaos Cultists are on a whole "worse" than the Imperium, stop bringing up something I answered on the first page.
And stop confusing "Not as bad as some of the other factions" as "Good."
Even if all of their actions are justified, it doesn't make them good. There is a difference.
And you are missing the point here...
Imperium is not good, but it's not evil either...
Let us say this, Imperium is evil because they have no real alternative ( survive or die ). While Chaos is pure evil and they do it for fun.
But that not means I will not stand with my race in it's dark hour, unlike some people here.....
Brother Coa wrote:And you are missing the point here...
Imperium is not good, but it's not evil either...
Let us say this, Imperium is evil because they have no real alternative ( survive or die ). While Chaos is pure evil and they do it for fun.
But that not means I will not stand with my race in it's dark hour, unlike some people here.....
At its best it is neutral. At its worst it verges into evil. And even when neutral on a whole, it commits evil.
Chaos doesn't "do it for fun," or rather, that is not why people join Chaos. Chaos does count among its ranks vile individuals, yes, Fabius Bile in particular stands out.
But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.
"Stand with my race in its dark hour"? What are you talking about?
Void__Dragon wrote:
"Stand with my race in its dark hour"? What are you talking about?
Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.
In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...
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Void__Dragon wrote:
But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.
So all except Slaanesh are good?
Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?
Void__Dragon wrote: "Stand with my race in its dark hour"? What are you talking about?
Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.
In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...
No, people collect other factions because they like the aesthetics, the background and/or gameplay out of personal preference. Last I checked, most people collect an imperial faction anyway.
Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote: But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.
So all except Slaanesh are good?
Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name. Nurgle want to rot everything. Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?
Void_Dragon has already stated numerous times that Chaos is not 'good'.
As for myself, I certainly agree that the Imperium's actions are of course the much lesser of two evils, but like Chaos more because IMO because every aspect of them is insamely cool (except failaddon ).
Brother Coa wrote:Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.
In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...
Uh... What? No they don't, are you serious?
What do you think I play Necrons because the Imperium is dying? I play them because I like, as Deathly Angel explained above me, their aesthetic and background, along with the overall "feel" of the faction.
Holy crap I cannot believe you are trying to insinuate people who prefer other factions in 40k or other SF or Fantasy universes are race traitors.
Brother Coa wrote:So all except Slaanesh are good?
Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?
You're not particularly bright, are you?
Since I have said multiple times on the whole Chaos is worse than the Imperium.
But no, the Chaos Gods are not evil. They aren't even sentient. Daemons however, can be and often are evil, having more "free will" than the Gods. Most Cultists are as well (Though as I said, Slaanesh tends to attract the worst).
Khornates are as capable of martial champions with a code of honour who strive to overcome impossible odds as they are to be bloodthirsty madmen (Unfortunately though, this aspect of Khorne has been downplayed in favor of the bloodthirsty madmen).
Nurgle cultists happily and lovingly embrace their brothers and new followers.
Tzeentch also doesn't actually have a goal. But... What's wrong with knowing gak...? As I said, many Tzeentch cultists, such as the Thousand Sons legion, are more sympathetic than you might think.
The Imperium is the lesser of two evils, but neither faction is completely black and white like you seem to think.
Brother Coa wrote:Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.
In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...
Uh... What? No they don't, are you serious?
What do you think I play Necrons because the Imperium is dying? I play them because I like, as Deathly Angel explained above me, their aesthetic and background, along with the overall "feel" of the faction.
Holy crap I cannot believe you are trying to insinuate people who prefer other factions in 40k or other SF or Fantasy universes are race traitors.
They are...they must all burn in hell for betraying their race - you to. And who are the most numerous Imperial players: 10 - 17 years old kids. When they grow up a little more and see the whole picture they are swapping for other factions like mad. Indeed, who would liek to play with faction that will lose in the end...
Brother Coa wrote:So all except Slaanesh are good?
Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name. Nurgle want to rot everything. Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?
You're not particularly bright, are you? LOL, brain-dead space robot zobies told me that, how shamed I am
Since I have said multiple times on the whole Chaos is worse than the Imperium.
But no, the Chaos Gods are not evil. They aren't even sentient. Daemons however, can be and often are evil, having more "free will" than the Gods. Most Cultists are as well (Though as I said, Slaanesh tends to attract the worst).
Khornates are as capable of martial champions with a code of honour who strive to overcome impossible odds as they are to be bloodthirsty madmen (Unfortunately though, this aspect of Khorne has been downplayed in favor of the bloodthirsty madmen).
Nurgle cultists happily and lovingly embrace their brothers and new followers.
Tzeentch also doesn't actually have a goal. But... What's wrong with knowing gak...? As I said, many Tzeentch cultists, such as the Thousand Sons legion, are more sympathetic than you might think.
The Imperium is the lesser of two evils, but neither faction is completely black and white like you seem to think.
You said that they are not evil. But you are trying so hard to implement that Imperium is in fact much bigger evil then Chaos. It's like saying "Hell is evil, but Haven is not good to and here is why...". You are implementing that Imperium so bad this whole thread that I am now starting to think that Choas Gods are good indeed - thank's a lot brain-dead zombie
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Deathly Angel wrote:
No, people collect other factions because they like the aesthetics, the background and/or gameplay out of personal preference. Last I checked, most people collect an imperial faction anyway.
Kids, at best. Who turn to others when they learn that their "super awsome Space Marines" will all die in the end because their enemies are to numerous and strong...
Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.
So all except Slaanesh are good?
Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?
Void_Dragon has already stated numerous times that Chaos is not 'good'.
As for myself, I certainly agree that the Imperium's actions are of course the much lesser of two evils, but like Chaos more because IMO because every aspect of them is insamely cool (except failaddon ).
But he implements that Imperium is so bad that Chaos is in fact - good. Like he is playing in some Tzeentch plan or something ... ( just as planed ).
Brother Coa wrote:They are...they must all burn in hell for betraying their race - you to.
And who are the most numerous Imperial players: 10 - 17 years old kids. When they grow up a little more and see the whole picture they are swapping for other factions like mad. Indeed, who would liek to play with faction that will lose in the end...
I loled. You're a friggin' riot dude. I sincerely hope you are joking.
People don't quit playing the Imperium and move onto another race just because the Imperium is doomed, indeed, that is arguably their main draw. The Imperium on a whole is the most popular faction, and not just among children.
I like Necrons and Orks for their background and aesthetic (And in the case of the Orks' case, because they're funny), I decided I would main them. Another assumption you are making is that I dislike the Imperium.
I don't. I like the Imperium on a whole, and have played a Space Marine armies and Black Templar armies. I would like to try Imperial Guard eventually.
Brother Coa wrote: LOL, brain-dead space robot zobies told me that, how shamed I am [/b]
Go pray to a toaster.
Brother Coa wrote:You said that they are not evil. But you are trying so hard to implement that Imperium is in fact much bigger evil then Chaos. It's like saying "Hell is evil, but Haven is not good to and here is why...". You are implementing that Imperium so bad this whole thread that I am now starting to think that Choas Gods are good indeed - thank's a lot brain-dead zombie
I say that the Chaos Gods are not evil. How can you consider beings without free will evil? The Daemons and Cultists on the other hand have free will, they often are evil. And no, I am not trying to say the Imperium is a bigger evil than Chaos... Only that it does in fact commit and act evil at times. In what way does that statement imply I think Chaos is good? Chaos is evil, but the Imperium is not good. I have told you why. :3 Just because the Imperium is opposed to Chaos doesn't make them good... The C'tan are opposed to Chaos, are they good?
P.S. The answer is no, the C'tan are more vile beings than the Chaos Gods ever were.
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Brother Coa wrote: implements
Also, you keep using this word.
I am pretty sure that word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
Void__Dragon wrote:
I loled. You're a friggin' riot dude. I sincerely hope you are joking.
I am not joking. When I was getting into college I put in "citizenship" - Terran. I play in ever sci-fi as Human. And I considered people who get to much into their "non-Human" factions a traitors to our race - and that is the ultimate heresy.
( Seriously dude, my profile picture didn't get you enough clues. I made it... )
Brother Coa wrote:
Go pray to a toaster.
I don't have a toaster - we don't use that crap we use something else. And I am talking with my computer on regular basis - what is wrong with that?
And when my car doesn't work I say: "Why won't you work damn you?". So your point is that I am a Tech-Priest?
Brother Coa wrote:
I say that the Chaos Gods are not evil. How can you consider beings without free will evil? The Daemons and Cultists on the other hand have free will, they often are evil. And no, I am not trying to say the Imperium is a bigger evil than Chaos... Only that it does in fact commit and act evil at times. In what way does that statement imply I think Chaos is good? Chaos is evil, but the Imperium is not good. I have told you why. :3 Just because the Imperium is opposed to Chaos doesn't make them good... The C'tan are opposed to Chaos, are they good?
P.S. The answer is no, the C'tan are more vile beings than the Chaos Gods ever were.
Ah....you are wrong - Chaos Gods are sentient beings. If you even tried to read about them you would see. And they have free will, just read 5'th edition rule-book, Chaos Daemons section - they are actually having a contest who's minions will take over planet first. I hardly call that not evil, playing games with one another while population of a planet is slowly dying out...
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Brother Coa wrote: implements
Also, you keep using this word.
I am pretty sure that word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
Uh...( great being corrected by brain-dead robot zombie, now I can shoot myself ), I wanted to say that "you are trying in all ways to show us that Imeprium is bad and Chaos is good - even dough you are saying that Chaos is evil one".
Seriously there are only 2 options here: Good and Evil. You can't put Good on Chaos Gods and evil on the Imperium. Think off all that poor Guardsman defending... oh, you are an alien follower and you don't give a damn. Oh well....
Brother Coa wrote:I am not joking. When I was getting into college I put in "citizenship" - Terran. I play in ever sci-fi as Human. And I considered people who get to much into their "non-Human" factions a traitors to our race - and that is the ultimate heresy.
( Seriously dude, my profile picture didn't get you enough clues. I made it... )
I am getting the serious feeling you are trolling me now. I really, really hope you are trolling me.
The Imperium, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Chaos, Eldar, etc... Are fictional. You are not a race traitor for preferring something other than human in a fictional setting.
Brother Coa wrote:I don't have a toaster - we don't use that crap we use something else. And I am talking with my computer on regular basis - what is wrong with that?
And when my car doesn't work I say: "Why won't you work damn you?". So your point is that I am a Tech-Priest?
Please stop this.
Brother Coa wrote:Ah....you are wrong - Chaos Gods are sentient beings. If you even tried to read about them you would see. And they have free will, just read 5'th edition rule-book, Chaos Daemons section - they are actually having a contest who's minions will take over planet first. I hardly call that not evil, playing games with one another while population of a planet is slowly dying out...
I'm afraid not. The Chaos Gods are entirely defined by the emotions of all mortal races in the galaxy (Except for the C'tan, Necrons, and those with the Pariah Gene), their personalities and the actions resulting from them are entirely dictated by the mortal races. They have an "illusion" of free will, but that is all it is, an illusion.
You also have to understand that mortal concepts of morality don't really apply to them regardless, to Tzeentch and Nurgle especially.
Brother Coa wrote:Uh...( great being corrected by brain-dead robot zombie, now I can shoot myself ), I wanted to say that "you are trying in all ways to show us that Imeprium is bad and Chaos is good - even dough you are saying that Chaos is evil one".
The word you were looking for is "implies," not "implements." Just something I noticed, and not just in this thread either.
Brother Coa wrote:Seriously there are only 2 options here: Good and Evil. You can't put Good on Chaos Gods and evil on the Imperium. Think off all that poor Guardsman defending... oh, you are an alien follower and you don't give a damn. Oh well....
No, those are not the only two options, it is not black and white. The Imperium does of course have decent, honest, or at the least neutral people in it, and would say that they have a higher ratio of such individuals than Chaos.
The Chaos Gods are not good, nor are they evil. They are not sentient, more akin to a force of nature that must be stopped if the galaxy is to survive, like a raging forest fire.
And once more: The Imperium is sympathetic. One of the most sympathetic factions.
But, the cultists of Chaos can be sympathetic as well.
Frankly, your simplistic notions that Imperium=Pure Good and Chaos=Pure evil detracts from what makes the setting of 40k so compelling: No side is truly guiltless, not entirely, and even the cultists of Chaos often have very legitimate reasons for rebelling... But ultimately, all but the strongest of will who turn to Chaos will lose sight of why they rebelled in the first place, and become shadows of what they once were, pawns to the Ruinous Powers and their insane game.
Brother Coa wrote:I am not joking. When I was getting into college I put in "citizenship" - Terran. I play in ever sci-fi as Human. And I considered people who get to much into their "non-Human" factions a traitors to our race - and that is the ultimate heresy.
( Seriously dude, my profile picture didn't get you enough clues. I made it... )
I am getting the serious feeling you are trolling me now. I really, really hope you are trolling me.
The Imperium, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Chaos, Eldar, etc... Are fictional. You are not a race traitor for preferring something other than human in a fictional setting.
Yes you are a traitor, as well as all those people ( alien fanatics who only implements that Imeprium should die ). And you stop trolling me with s***** questions.
Brother Coa wrote:I don't have a toaster - we don't use that crap we use something else. And I am talking with my computer on regular basis - what is wrong with that?
And when my car doesn't work I say: "Why won't you work damn you?". So your point is that I am a Tech-Priest?
Please stop this.
What is it? Can't respond brain-dead flesh tearing robot zombie
Brother Coa wrote:Uh...( great being corrected by brain-dead robot zombie, now I can shoot myself ), I wanted to say that "you are trying in all ways to show us that Imeprium is bad and Chaos is good - even dough you are saying that Chaos is evil one".
The word you were looking for is "implies," not "implements." Just something I noticed, and not just in this thread either.[/quote
I know, I also laugh when some American start to talk in my language.
No, those are not the only two options, it is not black and white. The Imperium does of course have decent, honest, or at the least neutral people in it, and would say that they have a higher ratio of such individuals than Chaos.
The Chaos Gods are not good, nor are they evil. They are not sentient, more akin to a force of nature that must be stopped if the galaxy is to survive, like a raging forest fire.
And once more: The Imperium is sympathetic. One of the most sympathetic factions.
But, the cultists of Chaos can be sympathetic as well.
Frankly, your simplistic notions that Imperium=Pure Good and Chaos=Pure evil detracts from what makes the setting of 40k so compelling: No side is truly guiltless, not entirely, and even the cultists of Chaos often have very legitimate reasons for rebelling... But ultimately, all but the strongest of will who turn to Chaos will lose sight of why they rebelled in the first place, and become shadows of what they once were, pawns to the Ruinous Powers and their insane game.
Then 40k - as well as entire universe is grey. There is no Good and Evil - just mix of that 2 in everything. Somewhere more and somewhere less.
I will not start the religion part since that also take a large portion in 40k, and Religion is Black and White mostly ( Heaven and Hell ). And you are Necron, what do you know about religion.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes you are a traitor, as well as all those people ( alien fanatics who only implements that Imeprium should die ). And you stop trolling me with s***** questions.
umad?
Also, the word you are looking for is "implies."
yumadtho?
Brother Coa wrote:What is it? Can't respond brain-dead flesh tearing robot zombie
Stop being so super serious gai.
Brother Coa wrote:I know, I also laugh when some American start to talk in my language.
You're welcome.
Brother Coa wrote:Then 40k - as well as entire universe is grey. There is no Good and Evil - just mix of that 2 in everything. Somewhere more and somewhere less.
I will not start the religion part since that also take a large portion in 40k, and Religion is Black and White mostly ( Heaven and Hell ). And you are Necron, what do you know about religion.
40k is Black and Grey, some factions are pure evil. The Dark Eldar, for example. The Necrons are also completely unsympathetic, and the C'tan are the most vile beings in the galaxy. Though there is no pure "good" faction I can recall.
Well gee, why don't you ask my gods what the Necrons who worshipped physical gods that we sold our souls to what we know about religion?
It just occurred to me though. Instead of talking to you, I could be watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, a much more enjoyable activity.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes you are a traitor, as well as all those people ( alien fanatics who only implements that Imeprium should die ). And you stop trolling me with s***** questions.
umad? Молим? Шта си тиме хтео да кажеш?
Also, the word you are looking for is "implies." Вау, хлава ти
yumadtho? Ало, мртви зомби робот - престани да причаш бесмислице
Brother Coa wrote:What is it? Can't respond brain-dead flesh tearing robot zombie
Stop being so super serious gai. And you stop being brain-dead...
Brother Coa wrote:Then 40k - as well as entire universe is grey. There is no Good and Evil - just mix of that 2 in everything. Somewhere more and somewhere less.
I will not start the religion part since that also take a large portion in 40k, and Religion is Black and White mostly ( Heaven and Hell ). And you are Necron, what do you know about religion.
40k is Black and Grey, some factions are pure evil. The Dark Eldar, for example. The Necrons are also completely unsympathetic, and the C'tan are the most vile beings in the galaxy. Though there is no pure "good" faction I can recall.
Well gee, why don't you ask my gods what the Necrons who worshipped physical gods that we sold our souls to what we know about religion?
It just occurred to me though. Instead of talking to you, I could be watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, a much more enjoyable activity.
I worked today and earned 10 dollars instead of arguing with brain-dead zombie robot. Now that's the more enjoyable activity...
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is for Void_Dragon only:
At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.
Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.
But in becoming a Daemon Prince, all but the very strongest lose themselves in the process, do they not?
Well, you'll probably "lose yourself" long before your elevation, but that's why I said infinitely minuscule. Even if your odds are 0.00000000001%, that's still better than your odds under the Imperium.
Omegus wrote:Well, you'll probably "lose yourself" long before your elevation, but that's why I said infinitely minuscule. Even if your odds are 0.00000000001%, that's still better than your odds under the Imperium.
I don't know, if you are fortunate enough to be born in a place like Ultramar life isn't so bad, and your odds of being born there are probably greater than actually becoming a Daemon Prince, rather than a Chaos Spawn. Or just dying.
Imperium and Chaos are both evil, but in different ways. The first is the dystopian militaristic state which justifies its actions by care about people and Emperor's love, and the last is the thing which promises personal freedom but this freedom somehow depends very much from the will of the Dark Gods.
The humanity must find the third way. Maybe this will be an ideology like Tau Greater Good or Eldar Path (but without joining these Xenos).
I think mercenaries and pirates are the most sane humans in the 40k universe.
While the imperium quite rightly dislikes aliens, their first reaction doesn't always lead to a genocidal campaign. Diplomatic nigotiations are opened by the ordo xenos or IDC and a settlement made if one is available. Alliances and treaties with alien races are forged routinely but really are temporary and more a matter of convenience than good will.
Farseer Petriel wrote:Imperium and Chaos are both evil, but in different ways. The first is the dystopian militaristic state which justifies its actions by care about people and Emperor's love, and the last is the thing which promises personal freedom but this freedom somehow depends very much from the will of the Dark Gods.
The humanity must find the third way. Maybe this will be an ideology like Tau Greater Good or Eldar Path (but without joining these Xenos).
I think mercenaries and pirates are the most sane humans in the 40k universe.
The Tau's philosophy is a lie controlled by the ethereals, it doesn't even make sense to a Tau when there is no ethereal around to remind him. The Tau aren't rosy either apart from Nimbosa the Tau systematically butchered the population of the main capital on Gravalax when they lost control of the situation.
The Imperium is no saint, however they don't routinely murder Imperial citizens unless under dire circumstances. Karamazov certainly isn't celebrated, he is hated by the ecclesiarchy and the thorian faction as well as criticised by members of his order, denouncing him proclaiming he has sent thousands of innocents to their deaths. In fact he famously came to blows with the ecclesiarchy and the inquisition on Salem Proctor, he was in deep doodoo until a chaos cult was uncovered on that planet. There is such a thing as being too zealous.
The Imperium is a product of humanities history, the Imperium understand the threat of the orks, tyranids, chaos and the necrons. Humanity learnt from the betrayal by their alien allies during the Age of Strife.
I will finish and say that the Imperium is far from falling and humanity certainly isn't on the brink of extinction. It is in a state of fluctuation, nothing more.
If I had to rank the races from 1 to 10 with 10 being saintly and 1 being the devils best friend I'd rate it like this:
Chaos = 1 - For obvious reasions.
Imperium = 4 maybe a 5 if you feel generous - Capable of good and looks out for humanities future but will resort to extreme measures.
Eldar = 4 again maybe a 5 - While not evil they will butcher millions of innocents to guarantee the survival of a few of their kind.
Dark Eldar = 2 - Product and most likely a victim of the fall, freely butchers anyone in their way for fun.
Tau = 6 - good traits born out of ignorance, capable of atrocities and have a mean streak.
Orks = 5 - Neutral because they fight for the thrill and not for any other overall objective, product of their creation.
Necrons = 2 - The C-tan are evil however the Necrontyr are a product of betrayal.
Tyranids = 1 - Obvious reasons.
Oh wow, another thread of impassioned defence of the Imperium by Brother Coa!
Orks and Tyranids definitely have the edge in terms of ethical right, neither exhibit any real capacity for malice, being bioengineered weapons and all. They kill gak because that's what they do. It's somewhat unfair to rate DE as dramatically worse than CE ethically, either, since their behaviour isn't exactly the sort of thing they can break away from anymore. Necrons (not including the C'Tan, who are pretty fething terrible) aren't particularly unethical either, being mindless robots (but of course that's set to change.). Tau are donkey-caves of a similar order to the Imperium.
sirrah wrote:Oh wow, another thread of impassioned defence of the Imperium by Brother Coa!
Orks and Tyranids definitely have the edge in terms of ethical right, neither exhibit any real capacity for malice, being bioengineered weapons and all. They kill gak because that's what they do. It's somewhat unfair to rate DE as dramatically worse than CE ethically, either, since their behaviour isn't exactly the sort of thing they can break away from anymore. Necrons (not including the C'Tan, who are pretty fething terrible) aren't particularly unethical either, being mindless robots (but of course that's set to change.). Tau are donkey-caves of a similar order to the Imperium.
Fair enough and some fair points, I'm not completely up to date with DE fluff but I think they "hunt" for souls because they need them to survive, I might be wrong but I'll move them up out of sympathy if true. Being bioengineered doesn't make the nids ethical since their over riding objective is to consume but they don't have a choice in the matter so I'll move them a point up. Crons can stay since necron lords have some form of self-awareness.
Um... it doesn't matter if Orks are bioengineered weapons or not. They allow for no other life, and seek to kill it all in battle. A human's life on an ork-held world is probably measured in hours.
Yeah, DE eat souls.
Chaos is only cool if you have Plot Armor. Otherwise, you're just a Blood Pact foot-slogger or some similar flunky. You're a red-shirt. Cannon fodder. You don't have the option to be something better than you were, the deck was always stacked against you, and you never had the slightest chance to win. Chaos is not that egalitarian.
Psienesis wrote:Um... it doesn't matter if Orks are bioengineered weapons or not. They allow for no other life, and seek to kill it all in battle. A human's life on an ork-held world is probably measured in hours.
But not doing so is anathema to the Ork, fighting is their sole drive because it is what they were made to do. They don't war out of hate or anger, and they hold no grudge over the loss of their own life in battle, because it is the only activity that fulfills them.
Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.
Hahahaha no, in the Imperium you have MUCH higher odds of becoming a nobleman, IG commander, manufactorum overseer, or some other decent career. You also have a WAY LOWER chance of turning into a mewling suffering chaos spawn.
Just gonna quickly add that I prefer the Imperium because it's people actually have hopes and aspirations for a peaceful life and sort of (my personal opinion) bear resemblance to our society in probably not agreeing with whatever bad stuff happens behind their backs, but being occupied with other worries (such as chaos or huge all consuming bugs...yeah I know we have less worries). Chaos on the other hand just seems to openly exploit every body, kill what ever they want and have no hopes of ever achieving anything except killing the emperor and then... serving the dark gods some more... and then profit?
Here's how I see it (5 is average happiness in our modern world). Also, since I don't believe it can be accurately displayed in 1 numbah, I'm using a short range of 3 numbahs. I picked two other races in addition to the Imperium and Chaos so there would be more perspective.
Satisfaction of Average Imperial Citizen: 2-4
Explanation: First of all, terrible living conditions; the average Imperial planet is polluted or is going to end up polluted due to the Imperium's disregard for sanity and safety. Secondly, their leaders are power hungry religious zealots who are prone to executing people for thinking (AKA heresy).
Satisfaction of Average Tau Citizen: 4-6
Explanation: First of all, Tau have better living conditions. They make up for this with terrible jobs and an even more totalitarian government than the Imperium. Luckily for the Tau they are somewhat brainwashed, so they aren't too sad about their situation.
Satisfaction of Average Tyranid: N/A
Explanation: Tyranids think about how to find/catch food and eat it. They don't think like humans do and their happiness can't be rated.
Satisfaction of Average Eye of Terror/Maelstrom Inhabitant: 2-4
Explanation: You need to be extremely smart of extremely strong (usually both) to rule over an area in a warpstorm. The average citizen is not that, and as a result is abused and enslaved and sometimes horrifically mutated. It is possible to have a good life, but the average person here definitely won't have one. The only advantage is the freedom to say and think what you want.
Chaos is far worse. They may well be a form of space nazi's, but many of the imperiums soldiers, especially SM chapters, actually are noble. Selfless, decent, who sacrfice their lives to assist others (imperial citizens they deem worthy of saving)
LoneLictor wrote:Here's how I see it (5 is average happiness in our modern world). Also, since I don't believe it can be accurately displayed in 1 numbah, I'm using a short range of 3 numbahs. I picked two other races in addition to the Imperium and Chaos so there would be more perspective.
Satisfaction of Average Imperial Citizen: 2-4
Explanation: First of all, terrible living conditions; the average Imperial planet is polluted or is going to end up polluted due to the Imperium's disregard for sanity and safety. Secondly, their leaders are power hungry religious zealots who are prone to executing people for thinking (AKA heresy).
Ultramarines have something to add to this...not every planet in the Imperium is Necromunda, Krieg or Catachan you know. There are planets were life is good, I think Macragge, Terra and Ophelia VII count as planets for good life. And every planet in the Imperium is probably having decent life for it;s citizens without leaders going to much in harassing them.
Satisfaction of Average Tau Citizen: 4-6
Explanation: First of all, Tau have better living conditions. They make up for this with terrible jobs and an even more totalitarian government than the Imperium. Luckily for the Tau they are somewhat brainwashed, so they aren't too sad about their situation.
Tau citizen can't say whatever he want, just what his Etherial say to him. You can't even chosse what wil lyou be in life - they chosee that foe you, you can't even breed with other castes. And they are brainwashed so....
Satisfaction of Average Tyranid: N/A
Explanation: Tyranids think about how to find/catch food and eat it. They don't think like humans do and their happiness can't be rated.
They are like ant's - they live only to serve Hive Mind and nothing else.
Satisfaction of Average Eye of Terror/Maelstrom Inhabitant: 2-4
Explanation: You need to be extremely smart of extremely strong (usually both) to rule over an area in a warpstorm. The average citizen is not that, and as a result is abused and enslaved and sometimes horrifically mutated. It is possible to have a good life, but the average person here definitely won't have one. The only advantage is the freedom to say and think what you want.
Well when you became mutant it isn't to hard to live there. And with your soul sold to Chaos Gods you can say whatever you want because it won't matter - you are their possession forever.
I think that only Eldar live decent life on their Craftworlds in Warhammer 40k....
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
HERESY! Obviously you are a pawn of the dark powers. Tie him to a stake and burn him at once!
Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.
Have you read Fulgrim?!
McNeil makes is sound like getting raped by demons is waaay better than going DP.
Or even, getting DP'd by demons, is worse than going DP.
PLus, do you get knommed by the Chaos Gods? I thought that was only the eldar, and that humans go.. well.. someplace else. And the emperor looks after the souls of those that believe in him. That hasn't been disproved has it?
Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.
Have you read Fulgrim?!
McNeil makes is sound like getting raped by demons is waaay better than going DP.
Or even, getting DP'd by demons, is worse than going DP.
PLus, do you get knommed by the Chaos Gods? I thought that was only the eldar, and that humans go.. well.. someplace else. And the emperor looks after the souls of those that believe in him. That hasn't been disproved has it?
Well, it has never been proven that the corpsegod looks for anyone's soul. Still, who cares what happens after death? Most human souls in 40k are weak and do not hold any kind of self awareness after death.
Well, it has never been proven that the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind looks for anyone's soul. Still, who cares what happens after death? Most human souls in 40k are weak and do not hold any kind of self awareness after death.
Do not spread Heresy.... And what about the fact they give him 1000 souls every day?
LoneLictor wrote:Here's how I see it (5 is average happiness in our modern world). Also, since I don't believe it can be accurately displayed in 1 numbah, I'm using a short range of 3 numbahs. I picked two other races in addition to the Imperium and Chaos so there would be more perspective.
Satisfaction of Average Imperial Citizen: 2-4
Explanation: First of all, terrible living conditions; the average Imperial planet is polluted or is going to end up polluted due to the Imperium's disregard for sanity and safety. Secondly, their leaders are power hungry religious zealots who are prone to executing people for thinking (AKA heresy).
Satisfaction of Average Tau Citizen: 4-6
Explanation: First of all, Tau have better living conditions. They make up for this with terrible jobs and an even more totalitarian government than the Imperium. Luckily for the Tau they are somewhat brainwashed, so they aren't too sad about their situation.
Satisfaction of Average Tyranid: N/A
Explanation: Tyranids think about how to find/catch food and eat it. They don't think like humans do and their happiness can't be rated.
Satisfaction of Average Eye of Terror/Maelstrom Inhabitant: 2-4
Explanation: You need to be extremely smart of extremely strong (usually both) to rule over an area in a warpstorm. The average citizen is not that, and as a result is abused and enslaved and sometimes horrifically mutated. It is possible to have a good life, but the average person here definitely won't have one. The only advantage is the freedom to say and think what you want.
Arturius wrote:Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.
Individuals are to the Imperium as a dollar bill is to the government...just another resource to spend wastefully on some project or another. Millions die a day, millions more are born.
But not doing so is anathema to the Ork, fighting is their sole drive because it is what they were made to do. They don't war out of hate or anger, and they hold no grudge over the loss of their own life in battle, because it is the only activity that fulfills them.
That does not make them better, that only makes them simple. I am not sure one can say that the Ork does not wage war out of anger, since they seem to be unbridled aggression embodied. Hate is too complex an emotion for the Orkoid mind.
The Necron are the good guys. Look at it, they aren't out to consume the life essence of everything (as clearly stated in the fluff, repeatedly) they just want to cleanse the galaxy of all life, so they can repopulate it with ponies and rainbows.
But more seriously, people who are defending the Imperium are kinda right. The basic underlining desire to benefit the Empire as a whole, and thus the Human Race, make them better than Chaos. The Chaos literally just want to make everyone miserable. HOWEVER, Chaos is just another aspect of humanity, so is there really 2 sides?
The Nids, however, can be described as neither good nor evil, just hungry.
The Tau and Eldar both have their bad parts, but are driven by a better force than the Imperium.
Everyone else is evil, with the exception of Orks, who aren't people, they are plants.
Config2 wrote:The Necron are the good guys. Look at it, they aren't out to consume the life essence of everything
I get that you are joking, about them being the good guys, but I'm not sure you are about this.
"Consuming the life essence of everything" is the exact goal of the C'tan and their Necron servants. Mostly the C'tan. The Necrons just like the killing and misery it brings to the living.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines have something to add to this...not every planet in the Imperium is Necromunda, Krieg or Catachan you know. There are planets were life is good, I think Macragge, Terra and Ophelia VII count as planets for good life. And every planet in the Imperium is probably having decent life for it;s citizens without leaders going to much in harassing them.
Terra is terrible; the oceans boiled away due to environmental problems. There are archives the size of continents. Most people there are scribes forced underground to copy documents until they finally die. Ophelia VII is a torture planet, where people deemed heretics are tortured for years upon years until they finally die. Macragge was ruined by the Tyranids; its a desert wasteland. Also, like Terra, the oceans boiled, but this time it wasn't humanity's fault. All three of those planets are terrible, terrible places.
Brother Coa wrote:Tau citizen can't say whatever he want, just what his Etherial say to him. You can't even chosse what wil lyou be in life - they chosee that foe you, you can't even breed with other castes. And they are brainwashed so....
Yep, that's my point. They have terrible, terrible lives but they're too ignorant and brainwashed to really acknowledge it very much and as a result are usually happy, unless they're really smart in which case they'll be miserable until someone notices and executes them.
Brother Coa wrote:They are like ant's - they live only to serve Hive Mind and nothing else.
Yep, I agree with you over that also. Tyranids are pretty much Ants who are smarter regarding getting food and keeping the colony alive.
Brother Coa wrote:Well when you became mutant it isn't to hard to live there. And with your soul sold to Chaos Gods you can say whatever you want because it won't matter - you are their possession forever.
Yeah, the Chaos Gods own you, but unlike the Imperium they're a lot less likely to punish you for certain actions. However, they will probably eat your soul which I bet is unpleasant. I think the only exceptions were/are Horus and Abaddon, simply because the Gods competing over them so much cancels eachother out and no one in particular can get the soul/mutate them/destroy them. But even Abaddon has to be careful about to keeping the favor of all 4 at once, simply because the Chaos Gods are insane.
Yarrickshad wrote:The Tau's philosophy is a lie controlled by the ethereals, it doesn't even make sense to a Tau when there is no ethereal around to remind him. The Tau aren't rosy either apart from Nimbosa the Tau systematically butchered the population of the main capital on Gravalax when they lost control of the situation.
Where in For the Emperor was it said that the Tau "systematically butchered the population"? Causing some civilian losses in a war against a Genestealer cult is expected, and I don't recall them going out of their way to kill districts because they lost control.
Yarrickshad wrote:The Imperium is no saint, however they don't routinely murder Imperial citizens unless under dire circumstances.
Tell that to the uncorrupted Sisters of Battle at the Bloodtide incident, or the psykers sacrificed to the Emperor, or to the population of Armageddon (Who might as well have been killed). The Imperium has been around long enough and has experienced enough trouble to be properly paranoid, but it also can be flat out vicious.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Config2 wrote:The Necron are the good guys. Look at it, they aren't out to consume the life essence of everything
I get that you are joking, about them being the good guys, but I'm not sure you are about this.
"Consuming the life essence of everything" is the exact goal of the C'tan and their Necron servants. Mostly the C'tan. The Necrons just like the killing and misery it brings to the living.
Well, the C'tan would prefer to farm the sentient beings of the galaxy like cattle, consuming their life essence as a delicacy. Those would be the lucky ones. The rest of us would spend our days getting tortured for the giggles.
I'd personally prefer being in The Deceiver's prison if I had to choose between those fates predicted in the Necron codex, since at least that one would have me die with a smile on my face.
REALLY!?!!? just read the rest of sentence. If that doesn't clarify it for you YES IT IS A JOKE. I have played Crons for a loooooooong time, I have mastered their hazy and mysterious fluff about consuming souls. Mostly cause there is only about 6 pages of actual txt
Molten Butter wrote:Well, the C'tan would prefer to farm the sentient beings of the galaxy like cattle, consuming their life essence as a delicacy. Those would be the lucky ones. The rest of us would spend our days getting tortured for the giggles.
I'd personally prefer being in The Deceiver's prison if I had to choose between those fates predicted in the Necron codex, since at least that one would have me die with a smile on my face.
Those two fates are not mutually exclusive. The Nightbringer in particular prefers its lifeburgers sprinkled with torment and fear before it feeds.
Also, Config2, the C'tan don't technically eat souls. I am just saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Molten Butter wrote:Tell that to the uncorrupted Sisters of Battle at the Bloodtide incident, or the psykers sacrificed to the Emperor, or to the population of Armageddon (Who might as well have been killed). The Imperium has been around long enough and has experienced enough trouble to be properly paranoid, but it also can be flat out vicious.
The Sisters killed at the Bloodtide incident were killed with reason: The Grey Knights needed their blood as a ward against the Bloodtide.
The psykers sacrificed to the Emperor sustain the Astronomicon, which the Imperium kinda needs.
LoneLictor wrote:
Terra is terrible; the oceans boiled away due to environmental problems. There are archives the size of continents. Most people there are scribes forced underground to copy documents until they finally die. Ophelia VII is a torture planet, where people deemed heretics are tortured for years upon years until they finally die. Macragge was ruined by the Tyranids; its a desert wasteland. Also, like Terra, the oceans boiled, but this time it wasn't humanity's fault. All three of those planets are terrible, terrible places.
Terra is like Corrusant from Star Wars ( as I remember Corrusant don't have oceans either, And air is generated by atmosphere processors ) archives are deep underground while buildings and Hive Cities are up on the surface and it's servitors that work down there - not people, and since Terra lost it's ocens long time ago peopel are using machines and other planets to generate, buy wather and are probably using some kind of tech for air and magnetic shielding. So it's not bad life after all. Ophelia VII is cardinal world full of beautiful buildings and such ( and of course that heretics must burn, what faith could you expect for the traitor to it's own race? ) and most people there are faitful citizens that worship the Emperor and bind his laws like their own ( Ophelia VII is like Vatican, last time I checked Rome is good place to live ). Where did you read that Macragge is desert world now? By the novels I read and the comics I saw from GW Macragge is still beautiful green planet it was before the invasion ( Nids didn't took any Biomass and it was 750 years after battle - the planet renewed itself ).
Brother Coa wrote:Well when you became mutant it isn't to hard to live there. And with your soul sold to Chaos Gods you can say whatever you want because it won't matter - you are their possession forever.
Yeah, the Chaos Gods own you, but unlike the Imperium they're a lot less likely to punish you for certain actions. However, they will probably eat your soul which I bet is unpleasant. I think the only exceptions were/are Horus and Abaddon, simply because the Gods competing over them so much cancels eachother out and no one in particular can get the soul/mutate them/destroy them. But even Abaddon has to be careful about to keeping the favor of all 4 at once, simply because the Chaos Gods are insane.
Uh.... what good is your opinions and freedom of speech and civil rights when your soul ( your true you, your identity ) is in possession of someone else? I would rather be a slave to Tau then see that my soul is being strip away from me.
Yeah I don't know why anyone would think chaos is "good" all they do is kill for their own selfish gain. At least the imperium kills people for the good of mankind(what they do might sound horrible to us, but for them it's routine)
By no means is the imperium this bright shinning star of goodness, but they at least do horrible acts in order for humanity to live on.
And why are people hating on the Imperium(best faction) we should all unite under one banner and hate on Tau more...that's more fun.
Imperium is hated because it's still an evil. Lesser, but the evil. Why people didn't think about alternate ways besides Imperium and Chaos? And would they believe in their beloved God-Emperor if there weren't any Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition burning the heretics?
Actually they are two sides of one coin.
Imperium is still the best opportunity for humans, but its ideology and religion could be better because they prevent Imperium from further progress and development. Imperials can't even develop their technology further. That's because Imperium was tended to support itself in the state of the eternal war, but not to the evolution. Its regime is the same that it was 10000 years ago, after the HH. And it isn't strange that now the Imperium is slowly decaying.
That doesn't necessarily mean that it will fall. Imperium had harder times in the past then now, and it prevailed. And AM is researching new things, but progress is slow as they don't have theories how stuff work anymore and must invent anew.
Molten Butter wrote:Tell that to the uncorrupted Sisters of Battle at the Bloodtide incident, or the psykers sacrificed to the Emperor, or to the population of Armageddon (Who might as well have been killed). The Imperium has been around long enough and has experienced enough trouble to be properly paranoid, but it also can be flat out vicious.
The Sisters killed at the Bloodtide incident were killed with reason: The Grey Knights needed their blood as a ward against the Bloodtide.
The psykers sacrificed to the Emperor sustain the Astronomicon, which the Imperium kinda needs.
I'd agree on Armageddon though, mostly.
I misread Yarrickshad's comment as "The Imperium doesn't routinely murder people under dire cirumstances," which is certainly different than what he actually said. Sorry, Yarrickshad.
Some people have a rather rosy view of the Imperium of Man. The place is a dystopian hell for the vast majority of mankind. Backbreaking and tedious work in some hive manufactorium where every sign of disobedience is severely punished is the rule for many, all in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia, for the alien, the heretic and the mutant are, at least according to the imperial authorities, every ready to strike.
If you endure the paranoia and the work then you better show some piety too, unless you want to burn on a witchfinders pyre. Oh, and heresy can be something as trivial as praying a few more minutes longer than
the sheduled praying time ( source: Blood of Martyrs ).
Still, if you are pious, obedient and uncomplaining ( just as good cattle should be ) then there is still the chance to die of some bureocratical oversight. Some administratum drone made a mistake and now your world is suposed to tithe foodstuff in the middle of a famine? Well, have fun starving. Your world's tithes have been doubled or trippled because of some emergency many hundreds of lightyears away? Well, don't even think
about complaining or you will probably end your days on a pyre.
In the Imperium of Man you are nothing, less than nothing even. You are the slave of your Imperial Govenor for the Imperium does not care if you are abused and exploited for as long as your leadership can fulfill it's obligations to the Imperium the lords of terra are content. in the Imperium of Man you are a slave, in some places a well fed one, but as soon as you take a step away from established imperial orthodoxy then you, your family and everyone you know will pay dearly for it.
The imperium's worst sin is perhaps that it claims that all this is necessary to protect mankind. That is wrong. The imperium is it's own greatest enemy. It is inefficient, backwards, utterly dogmatic and possibly
corrupted beyond help. It's very existence helps to spread the taint of chaos for who else but the dark gods is is there to provide succor to the abused masses when they have finaly enough of their wretched existance in the carriongod's name?
Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.
deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.
Ok, but what about the concept of "innocence"?
A 6 month old child is innocent, they cannot be blamed for anything.
Salamanders and Ultramarines would try to save a child from a hive that was about to be bombed.
Slaanesh worshippers would happily rape babies and Khorne worshippers would cut them into pieces. Send a Khorne beserker and he would gleefully butcher everything living in there. How then can you possibly even attempt to square this circle?
Considering Chaos is the manifestation of all of mortals worst habits, its ludicrous to suggest that Chaos is more "good" than the IOM.
Space Nazi's they may be, but they there are some noble and selfless individuals amongst it that are willing to put themselves in harms way to assist innocent civilians that they believe to be "servants of the emperor", even if they are misguided and the emperor is nothing, their actions are still noble regardless.
The same cannot be said for Chaos, or any mortal that will harm others for their own pleasure. And that's the thing, the IOM carry out eterminatus when they rightly or wrongly feel they must, but slaanesh worshippers kill because they ENJOY it.
Frankly, I think the entire thread is ridiculous, and the only people that I can envisage saying that chaos are somehow the "good" guys are those weird fat goth's that like people to think that they are vampires or something.
You know, the moody fethers that never smile and think they are hip and chic and "unique" when they are merely fat boring and unoriginal.
deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.
Space Nazi's they may be, but they there are some noble and selfless individuals amongst it that are willing to put themselves in harms way to assist innocent civilians that they believe to be "servants of the emperor", even if they are misguided and the emperor is nothing, their actions are still noble regardless.
I would even argue that most imperial citizens are no less decent than any other human being in their situation would be. The problem is their utterly corrupt leadership which, trough propaganda and fear, uses them to perpetuate the system which exploits them in the first place. In fact the rot goes so deep that comparisions to nurgle cultists aren't too far off. After all, both have long ago submitted to their seemingly unchangable situation or even find positive aspects within it.
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.
KingDeath wrote:
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.
Because Imperials don't take your soul and torture it and play with it for the rest of eternity.
Also, The Imperium is best outcome for Human race in that state.
I reject your options and choose one of my of my own devising.
mattyrm wrote:
deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.
Ok, but what about the concept of "innocence"?
A 6 month old child is innocent, they cannot be blamed for anything.
Salamanders and Ultramarines would try to save a child from a hive that was about to be bombed.
No they wouldn't. A Space Marine is worth more than a child.
KingDeath wrote:
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.
Because Imperials don't take your soul and torture it and play with it for the rest of eternity.
Also, The Imperium is best outcome for Human race in that state.
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
KingDeath wrote:
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.
Because Imperials don't take your soul and torture it and play with it for the rest of eternity.
Also, The Imperium is best outcome for Human race in that state.
Imperium is best outcome for human race because GW didn't invent something else.
KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer Petriel wrote:
Imperium is best outcome for human race because GW didn't invent something else.
Because it's strict regime and religion is the only thing keeping Mankind together, in every other regime Humanity would fall because existence of other empires and private states will be possible and we would fight each-other as much as aliens and heretics.
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk America who murders countries of entire populations cause they have too many fricken bullets, or a Al-Qaeda who are just deoted followers of their god?
Fixed. I hope you realize how silly that post sounds now.
Gonna have to go with the Imperium.
This made my day.
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...
...
It is satire, isn't it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not all Chaos-aligned people are sadistic crazies. The Thousand Sons chapter never wanted what happened to them.
The Chaos Gods aren't entirely evil either. Without change, hope wouldn't be possible and society would stagnate, without decay the cycle of life would stop and everything would die, without honour people wouldn't care what others saw them as, without sex life would be a living hell...
The Imperium is the same, but without the spikes.
KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer Petriel wrote:
Imperium is best outcome for human race because GW didn't invent something else.
Because it's strict regime and religion is the only thing keeping Mankind together, in every other regime Humanity would fall because existence of other empires and private states will be possible and we would fight each-other as much as aliens and heretics.
And what about that progressive Imperium planned by the Emperor? Would it exist in M41 if there weren't any HH?
I think it will be a good idea to spread Imperial Truth right now.
Dystopian regime creates suppressed filthy people who can be easliy corrupted by Chaos because it's very easy to prove that Imperium is unfair.
KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.
Pure speculation. I can speculate too. Societies like the Interrex, which managed to survive the terrible years of the long night largely undamaged, would have possibly provided a much better chance for the human species than the ultimately fractured and declining Imperium of Man. Besides that, whatever the carriongod planned for the human species he failed, badly. Not only did he tie the fate of his Imperium to the martian brotherhood, an organistion for which progress and inovation are signs of mindrust, his very actions also helped to disenchant half of it's newly forged imperium enough allow the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy. Sure, one can blame the warmaster and chaos for it, but both needed willing followers and the Emperor's incompetence was what provided those.
So no, the Imperium of Man is not the only way for the human species to survive, perhaps it is even the worst one.
The Emperor never said to anyone his plan, so High Lord assumed what he wanted anyway and continue that way.
The Emperor should pointed out Guiliman to sit on the throne until he is able to return. If only that happened...
This way Imperium is lead by rich aristocracy instead of Emperor's sons ( HLoT aldo have power are denied by majority of the Planetary Governors ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.
Durza wrote:
I reject your options and choose one of my of my own devising.
Spoiler:
Am I imagining things or are you praising the Imperium?
You're imagining it. I figure it shows how few of the Imperium's warriors actually give a damn about who they fight, and how many simply kill for the sake of it (kind of like their enemy). Also, I like the music.
Durza wrote:
You're imagining it. I figure it shows how few of the Imperium's warriors actually give a damn about who they fight, and how many simply kill for the sake of it (kind of like their enemy). Also, I like the music.
What? This clearly shows how faithfully they fight in the Emperor's name, it show they loyalty and their faith unbroken. It truly is masterpiece.
Every kill is for the Emperor, every sacrifice is for the Emperor oh joy...
KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.
Pure speculation. I can speculate too. Societies like the Interrex, which managed to survive the terrible years of the long night largely undamaged, would have possibly provided a much better chance for the human species than the ultimately fractured and declining Imperium of Man. Besides that, whatever the carriongod planned for the human species he failed, badly. Not only did he tie the fate of his Imperium to the martian brotherhood, an organistion for which progress and inovation are signs of mindrust, his very actions also helped to disenchant half of it's newly forged imperium enough allow the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy. Sure, one can blame the warmaster and chaos for it, but both needed willing followers and the Emperor's incompetence was what provided those.
So no, the Imperium of Man is not the only way for the human species to survive, perhaps it is even the worst one.
I agree with you Remember also Auretian technocracy and "false" Earth conquered by Luna Wolves in Horus Rising.
BrotherCoa wrote:The Emperor never said to anyone his plan, so High Lord assumed what he wanted anyway and continue that way.
The Emperor should pointed out Guiliman to sit on the throne until he is able to return. If only that happened...
This way Imperium is lead by rich aristocracy instead of Emperor's sons ( HLoT aldo have power are denied by majority of the Planetary Governors ).
And why do you think that this aristocracy cares about the humanity? They care about their power held by authoritarian regime and medieval church.
So both Imperial and Chaos leaders don't care about fates of mortals.
Brother Coa wrote:The Emperor never said to anyone his plan, so High Lord assumed what he wanted anyway and continue that way.
The Emperor should pointed out Guiliman to sit on the throne until he is able to return. If only that happened...
This way Imperium is lead by rich aristocracy instead of Emperor's sons ( HLoT aldo have power are denied by majority of the Planetary Governors ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.
You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.
Pure speculation.
It is said so in the HH novels.
And yet his actions prove the opposite. Didn't he allow the Mechanicum to monopolize nearly all of human technology? Didn't he style himself as an almost godlike ( complete with golden armour, a halo of blinding light...) being, even if he always claimed that he wasn't a god? But even if he truly wanted a secular, progressive Imperium he wasn't up to the task. Your idea that the "Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survived" is simply speculation. I can speculate just as well that other, more open and truly progressive societies ( which did exist right until the Great Crusade ) would have served mankind much better.
Humanity survived very well before the Imperium, trading with aliens they now try to destroy simply because they aren't human.
Brother Coa wrote:
Durza wrote: You're imagining it. I figure it shows how few of the Imperium's warriors actually give a damn about who they fight, and how many simply kill for the sake of it (kind of like their enemy). Also, I like the music.
What? This clearly shows how faithfully they fight in the Emperor's name, it show they loyalty and their faith unbroken. It truly is masterpiece. Every kill is for the Emperor, every sacrifice is for the Emperor oh joy...
'All of life, feel the reaper.' 'Oh, to walk upon the bloodstained ground.' 'We are shodowy death' 'Anoint them with their own blood.' 'Faith is bast when unquestioning.' 'After a thousand battles, one only sees death.' 'Witness your doom.' 'Glory for the first man to die.' 'I am fear incarnate.' 'Death is my meat, terror my wine.' 'A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time.' 'Fear my wrath, the firey destroyer of worlds.' 'All shall burn.'
'All of life, feel the reaper.' - Eldar
'We are shodowy death' - Eldar
'After a thousand battles, one only sees death.' - Chaos
'Death is my meat, terror my wine.' - Dark Eldar
'Fear my wrath, the firey destroyer of worlds.' - Eldar
If I want to play Warhammer, I play Warhammer. There's far better games than DoW using the same format. When introduced to the piece, I was told that it was a collection of Imperial quotations, so sorry for the inaccuracy.
KingDeath wrote:Some people have a rather rosy view of the Imperium of Man. The place is a dystopian hell for the vast majority of mankind. Backbreaking and tedious work in some hive manufactorium where every sign of disobedience is severely punished is the rule for many, all in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia, for the alien, the heretic and the mutant are, at least according to the imperial authorities, every ready to strike.
If you endure the paranoia and the work then you better show some piety too, unless you want to burn on a witchfinders pyre. Oh, and heresy can be something as trivial as praying a few more minutes longer than
the sheduled praying time ( source: Blood of Martyrs ).
Still, if you are pious, obedient and uncomplaining ( just as good cattle should be ) then there is still the chance to die of some bureocratical oversight. Some administratum drone made a mistake and now your world is suposed to tithe foodstuff in the middle of a famine? Well, have fun starving. Your world's tithes have been doubled or trippled because of some emergency many hundreds of lightyears away? Well, don't even think
about complaining or you will probably end your days on a pyre.
In the Imperium of Man you are nothing, less than nothing even. You are the slave of your Imperial Govenor for the Imperium does not care if you are abused and exploited for as long as your leadership can fulfill it's obligations to the Imperium the lords of terra are content. in the Imperium of Man you are a slave, in some places a well fed one, but as soon as you take a step away from established imperial orthodoxy then you, your family and everyone you know will pay dearly for it.
The imperium's worst sin is perhaps that it claims that all this is necessary to protect mankind. That is wrong. The imperium is it's own greatest enemy. It is inefficient, backwards, utterly dogmatic and possibly
corrupted beyond help. It's very existence helps to spread the taint of chaos for who else but the dark gods is is there to provide succor to the abused masses when they have finaly enough of their wretched existance in the carriongod's name?
I'd say it is not like that at all. The vast majority are designated as civilised worlds and as long as tithes are paid the governor can do as he/she pleases, the Imperium doesn't interfere with conflicts if they don't affect the wider Imperium and may rule as they wish, democracies exist as do totalitarian governments. Populations on Civilised worlds probably live lives that are not that much different to ours today. Work can on these worlds can vary considerably. Shop owners, restaurants and hotels for off worlders to mining and farm labour which range from well paid to press ganged. Todays earth could fit quite nicely in the 40k universe.
Dying because of bureaucratic errors are probably not that common if you consider that all tithes are organised at sub-sector level, it is unlikely that a famine would go unnoticed. You'd most likely attract the attention of witchhunters and the inquisition if rebellions are found to have been influenced by outside forces such as a genestealer or chaos cult, how common they are is difficult to tell, Gravalax for example was infiltrated by a Genestealer cult and had contact with the Tau for generations. Once both were defeated the planet had no contact with either enemy for 165 years and counting. In the Imperium you are more likely to die at work than murdered by an alien or chaos cultist, but then that is the same today.
I doubt complaining gets you executed. I also doubt the average civilian has any knowledge of aliens beyond fairy tale stories told to scare naughty children, knowledge of the great enemy is suppressed to the point that no knowledge exists at all.
I feel you have an extreme view of the Imperium, it is not as bad as you claim, any society would fit in the imperium, from a social paradise to a dystopian hell hole, I believe your average Imperial world sits between the two. Since the Imperium as a whole is so decentralised it's impossible to claim that it fits any one form of government. The Imperium is kind of a federation of systems and empires with central authorities keeping themselves at arms length from individual affairs, this allows for a huge variety of governments so no one umbrella term can be used to describe it.
Is the Imperium dystopian? Not to a huge degree in my view since the Lords of Terra ask surprisingly little from their planetary lords and offer complete flexibility in the way they rule, when they do repress it is usually for a good reason. It would be more accurate to claim that individual worlds can be dystopian, not the wider Imperium itself.
@Molten Butter:
Page 191 says thousands of civilians were killed when the Tau attacked the PDF, that was before the Genestealer cult was identified. Either way it shows they have no qualms about collateral damage. The tau didn't systematically butcher the civilians, I was mistaken and I apologise.
After reading all of this debate I'm quite aggravated about how stupid some of these points are. People making huge, sweeping, absolute statements because they are bias or just want to argue... People quoting their favorite source to back up a point, etc. Take an aerial view of 40k and focus on the topic question.
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
This is obviously a question about "who is more evil?" The only thing that is really absolute is that Chaos is altogether evil. In order for this story to be good there has to be a struggle between good and evil, at least to some degree. I would aruge, though carefully, that mankind is the protagonist, yet at the same time, at times, the antagonist (a wonderful paradox 40k makers have come up with, truly) of the 40k universe. That is what they are, evil. If you read HH you can watch the moral/ethical degradation that "good" imperial Space Marines go through when they are tainted and corrupted by Chaos. Use logic, this is the only way this could have happened....good (though not pure good) turned to bad - duh. Or bad, to worse (I like the previous). The authors write in a way that specifically shows "relatively" good, moral, once ethical humans falling into evil. How else could the fall to Chaos happen? They defied MANY "good" principles in order to fall to chaos. They chased power, betrayed honor and allegience, followed selfish ambitions, murdered their brothers (et tu, Brute?), the list goes forever! Just read HH again and you see good go to bad.
What is so great about 40k is that it connects with the real-life human condition. We are all screwed-up, flawed human beings who all do evil (to some degree), yet we have moments of goodness and hopes for what is right! 40K certainly has characters who capture this dynamic. A flawed mess of raw talent rises out of the ashes and does great things. Further, addressing the Imperium as a whole, people I know that live in the middle east say things like, "I love your people (Americans), but I hate your government." The body/institution may be corrupt, to a large degree, but not all of the individual members of that body are corrupt. For example, Death Gaurd (Chaos traitors) had an examplar in stalwart goodness, Nathaniel Garro. Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, blah blah. These guys were certainly good (although they were atheistic murders at times!). Chaos is exclusively BAD! Imperium is not exclusively bad! Dark Eldar, exclusively bad! Eldar, are not exclusively bad (they have done bad things, but it isn't their identity). Are humans in real life bad? Yes! Are all of them bad all the time? No.
Now, from a personal indulgence.... I like 40k because I see how messed-up and dark the world is and how despairing the future is for mankind. I really fell in love with it (early in my readings) when I knew this fact of despairing future for humanity and then heard things like: Magnus mentioning the known wearabouts of Leman Russ. Or that El'Johnson is just sleeping and will return, etc. What could be more of an epic than a glorious return in the face of hopelesness?!? But, GW will probably never act on such hopes and 40k will continue to be the struggle against the all-encompassing evil that is everywhere and in everyone - because that is what 40k is. Although I would certainly not be opposed to such "good" things happening!!!! Point being - humanity is bad in 40k...yet there is a VERY SMALL SLIVER of hope - oh so small. My 10 cents.
Fehl wrote:After reading all of this debate I'm quite aggravated about how stupid some of these points are. People making huge, sweeping, absolute statements because they are bias or just want to argue... People quoting their favorite source to back up a point, etc. Take an aerial view of 40k and focus on the topic question.
Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?
This is obviously a question about "who is more evil?" The only thing that is really absolute is that Chaos is altogether evil. In order for this story to be good there has to be a struggle between good and evil, at least to some degree. I would aruge, though carefully, that mankind is the protagonist, yet at the same time, at times, the antagonist (a wonderful paradox 40k makers have come up with, truly) of the 40k universe. That is what they are, evil. If you read HH you can watch the moral/ethical degradation that "good" imperial Space Marines go through when they are tainted and corrupted by Chaos. Use logic, this is the only way this could have happened....good (though not pure good) turned to bad - duh. Or bad, to worse (I like the previous). The authors write in a way that specifically shows "relatively" good, moral, once ethical humans falling into evil. How else could the fall to Chaos happen? They defied MANY "good" principles in order to fall to chaos. They chased power, betrayed honor and allegience, followed selfish ambitions, murdered their brothers (et tu, Brute?), the list goes forever! Just read HH again and you see good go to bad.
What is so great about 40k is that it connects with the real-life human condition. We are all screwed-up, flawed human beings who all do evil (to some degree), yet we have moments of goodness and hopes for what is right! 40K certainly has characters who capture this dynamic. A flawed mess of raw talent rises out of the ashes and does great things. Further, addressing the Imperium as a whole, people I know that live in the middle east say things like, "I love your people (Americans), but I hate your government." The body/institution may be corrupt, to a large degree, but not all of the individual members of that body are corrupt. For example, Death Gaurd (Chaos traitors) had an examplar in stalwart goodness, Nathaniel Garro. Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, blah blah. These guys were certainly good (although they were atheistic murders at times!). Chaos is exclusively BAD! Imperium is not exclusively bad! Dark Eldar, exclusively bad! Eldar, are not exclusively bad (they have done bad things, but it isn't their identity). Are humans in real life bad? Yes! Are all of them bad all the time? No.
Now, from a personal indulgence.... I like 40k because I see how messed-up and dark the world is and how despairing the future is for mankind. I really fell in love with it (early in my readings) when I knew this fact of despairing future for humanity and then heard things like: Magnus mentioning the known wearabouts of Leman Russ. Or that El'Johnson is just sleeping and will return, etc. What could be more of an epic than a glorious return in the face of hopelesness?!? But, GW will probably never act on such hopes and 40k will continue to be the struggle against the all-encompassing evil that is everywhere and in everyone - because that is what 40k is. Although I would certainly not be opposed to such "good" things happening!!!! Point being - humanity is bad in 40k...yet there is a VERY SMALL SLIVER of hope - oh so small. My 10 cents.
10 cents well spent by the look of it.
I'd like to see GW work on that small sliver of hope, let it stand out. The problem is that the Imperium has no real objective and no real way out that is alluded to other than in older, probably outdated sources. All we know is that humanity is either going to be gobbled, harvested and/or murdered. Slapping skulls all over the place, throw big numbers around and adding unbelievable races (especially mankind) doesn't make it grim dark because there is very little real reasoning behind what goes on. What it makes is a pretty boring story where there is truly no hope for humanity.
If GW wants grim dark then IMHO they have to make mankind more realistic and believable, compared to some fiction 40k can be pretty tame in that department. All you think when you look at the Imperium is how unbelievably incompetent and stupid it is as an entity, and by extension how silly the rest of the races look because in ten thousand years they still haven't destroyed humanity yet. Humanities plight would be far more grim dark if the Imperium was actually believable.
Holy gak..i will read through all this when im at home (got to page 2 1/2 or so xD).
Only thing i wanted to mention is, that according to the GK Shorstory in "Victories of the Space Marines", every single bolterbullet they fire was baptised in the blood of a loyal, good, believing servant of the emperor (by, ofc, shooting them). And the dude in the shortstory didn't exactly sign up for this ^^
Because, according to the priest (or whatever that was) who kills him, the sacrifice of heretics is worth nothing. So they sacrifice "good guys".
Just wanted to add this to the "torture and other stuff that only happens to bad guys and mutants"-discussion.
Maybe someoen else wrote that on the other 4 pages. Then im deeply sorry
deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.
Ok, but what about the concept of "innocence"?
A 6 month old child is innocent, they cannot be blamed for anything.
Salamanders and Ultramarines would try to save a child from a hive that was about to be bombed.
Slaanesh worshippers would happily rape babies and Khorne worshippers would cut them into pieces. Send a Khorne beserker and he would gleefully butcher everything living in there. How then can you possibly even attempt to square this circle?
Considering Chaos is the manifestation of all of mortals worst habits, its ludicrous to suggest that Chaos is more "good" than the IOM.
Space Nazi's they may be, but they there are some noble and selfless individuals amongst it that are willing to put themselves in harms way to assist innocent civilians that they believe to be "servants of the emperor", even if they are misguided and the emperor is nothing, their actions are still noble regardless.
The same cannot be said for Chaos, or any mortal that will harm others for their own pleasure. And that's the thing, the IOM carry out eterminatus when they rightly or wrongly feel they must, but slaanesh worshippers kill because they ENJOY it.
Frankly, I think the entire thread is ridiculous, and the only people that I can envisage saying that chaos are somehow the "good" guys are those weird fat goth's that like people to think that they are vampires or something.
You know, the moody fethers that never smile and think they are hip and chic and "unique" when they are merely fat boring and unoriginal.
Well, I did state that I don't believe in absolutes of good or evil, so this line of rhetoric is somewhat superfluous. However, for and giggles:
I could argue that infants are not innocent (by your definition) as they cause their mothers pain during birth, but I'm not really gonna go there. Anyway, one of the mottoes of the IOM is that "Innocence proves nothing." so this doesn't really hold water.
I could also argue that chaos is "better" because it has the potential for unrestricted freedom, whereas the IOM represents fascistic repression. Modern western values typically hold freedom and individualism as high values.
I'd also like to point out that not all of the Traitor Legions are culted-- only four are sworn to a god. I'd also like to point out that we could ascribe noble intention to Magnus the Red; he joined with Tzeentch to save his children from an emperor who tried to kill him. Aside from this, both the traitor legions and the IOM use slave labor, wage wars, and burn and murder planets when it suits their purposes. A dead baby is a dead baby is a dead baby regardless of the reasons behind its death.
Furthermore, were I to argue from an empiricist atheistic perspective, there exists no inherent value in life whatsoever; an infant has as much intrinsic value as a rock. Actually, from this view nothing has intrinsic value as all phenomena are temporary and therefore meaningless.
Anyway. I'm not trying to square the circle. Chaos is evil (at least from the relative morality of most human beings). I've never claimed that they are "good" but I've also never claimed that the IOM is "good". They're just two different sorts of evil. The IOM does bad things for "good" reasons (well, most of the time anyway) Chaos does bad things for a variety of reasons, but usually just because they want to. You've got to appreciate that kind of honesty. Do you blame a snake for biting you? It's just what snakes do.
For myself, I stand by my previous statement-- I like chaos better because I find them more aesthetically pleasing. I just like them better.
And goths? Vampires? Really? It doesn't get much more goth than the grimdark empire of man and BA are essentially just vampires in red power armor. Mephiston even has a beguiling gaze to prove it.
I mean, if I was a moody goth kid, I'd probably play Dark Angels. Because, dude, they like have Dark in their name and stuff
I have found much to facepalm in this thread. Both from Imperium fans and non-Imperium fans.
Here is my opinion:
1] There are no good guys in 40k. There are just the lesser evils, the true evils, the neutrals and the dicks.
The lesser evils in no particular order are The Imperium, Eldar and Tau.
The true evils in order of evilness are:
a] Dark Eldar
b] Chaos
c] Necrons
The Neutrals are Orks and Nids and the dicks are everyone else.
2] Will you guys stop blaming the Imperium for the actions of the nobility of the Imperium. Do any of you realize that the nobility regularly flaunt Imperial law to do whatever they want? The nobility are the rulers of the individual planets cause the Imperium is decentralized. If a noble is a kind and wise ruler, good for the planet but if the ruler is bad well bad luck for the planet but this not Imperium's fault as it doesn't give a gak how a planet is ruled.
3] Mutants and abhumans. You guys think that these two are the same thing which is false. Abhumans are the evolutions or devolutions depending on ones point of view of the human race. But mutants are the result of chemical, nuclear, biological or warp effects. These mutants are not like mutants from x-men but truly horrific creatures like instead of having arms they have tentacles, have eight eyes, are built like the Hulk, are cannibals, have functional immortality but must kill people to sustain it etc. Even modern earth would have problems with these people.
4] Aliens in 40k are of the dicks or apathetic variety which is 80 or 90 % are dicks while 10 or 20 % are apathetic or innocent take your pick. Aliens hate and fear the Imperium for various reasons like the Imperium taking iover territory they wanted or trying to xenocide all of them or some of them are dicks and are afraid that when the Imperium catches them; comes the xenocide. Essentially its like this aliens are hate or use humanity either cause they're dicks or cause the Imperium is xenophobic and tries to kill them while Imperium tries to kill them all cause they believe that they're dicks. See the self fulfilling prophecy here?
Now lets talk Eldar. Eldar don't hate the Imperium. They simply consider humanity to be animals and little more than vermin and resent the fact that humanity is claiming what the Eldar see as their birthright which is the ownership of the 40k galaxy. The Eldar are just as xenophobic as the Imperium, they simply channel it in different ways like holding everyone in disdain. Hell in the Koronus expanse, from the 40krpg, a race called the Stryxis hate the Eldar and if they meet Eldar near them, they will try and exterminate the Eldar. Why you ask? I don't know.
5] The Imperium's having all the non-SM participants of the First war of armageddon killed is something I really can't argue against unfortunately. The daemon invasion of armageddon was unique in that the planet was overrun by daemons lead by a daemon primarch and 12 or was it 13 bloodthirsters. For the sake of the creator, there are Imperium ships that have turned to chaos cause there was something weird about them. Having all these normal humans witness that insanity, its not unheard of for many of them to fall to chaos later.
6] The Imperium is a mix of justified and non-justified atrocities.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: All this talk of the Interex being better for humanity is rubbish. The Interex are naive with their attitude of lets be friends when we have the Cabal running around plotting to kill us all. And worst is that fact that they claim that they fight Chaos which means they must know about Chaos corruption and magic etc. But what do they do when they have a Chaos blade? They put it in a bloddy museum for all to see and steal which is what happens.
But then again we have Matt Ward and his trash fluff with the GK's so it balances itself out.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:2] Will you guys stop blaming the Imperium for the actions of the nobility of the Imperium. Do any of you realize that the nobility regularly flaunt Imperial law to do whatever they want? The nobility are the rulers of the individual planets cause the Imperium is decentralized. If a noble is a kind and wise ruler, good for the planet but if the ruler is bad well bad luck for the planet but this not Imperium's fault as it doesn't give a gak how a planet is ruled.
No.
Planets have to pay tithes, so the Imperium already gets some benefit from them. It is the Imperium's fault if they neglect to replace a bad ruler.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
1] There are no good guys in 40k. There are just the lesser evils, the true evils, the neutrals and the dicks.
THANK YOU KIND SIR.
In 40k there is evil and necessary evil. There can't be good guys in a grim-dark universe.
Nope, there's evil and eviler. I'd disagree with necessary evil.
Disagree all you want. It doesn't mean your opinion matters nor is your opinion fact.
Molten Butter wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:2] Will you guys stop blaming the Imperium for the actions of the nobility of the Imperium. Do any of you realize that the nobility regularly flaunt Imperial law to do whatever they want? The nobility are the rulers of the individual planets cause the Imperium is decentralized. If a noble is a kind and wise ruler, good for the planet but if the ruler is bad well bad luck for the planet but this not Imperium's fault as it doesn't give a gak how a planet is ruled.
No.
Planets have to pay tithes, so the Imperium already gets some benefit from them. It is the Imperium's fault if they neglect to replace a bad ruler.
You truly have no understanding of politics or the meaning of autonomy do you nor do you have an understanding of 40k fluff. The Imperium gives each planet autonomy to do whatever they want as long as tithes(taxes) are paid and Imperial law is obeyed, the Imperium won't care how the planet is ruled. If the local ruler is replaced via a revolution but the planet doesn't seceded from the Imperium, the Imperium doesn't mind. There have been examples in real life where people will fight you even if you try and help them by replacing their ruler with someone better, they don't care, you are an outsider who changes things they believe they should change themselves.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
1] There are no good guys in 40k. There are just the lesser evils, the true evils, the neutrals and the dicks.
THANK YOU KIND SIR.
In 40k there is evil and necessary evil. There can't be good guys in a grim-dark universe.
Nope, there's evil and eviler. I'd disagree with necessary evil.
Disagree all you want. It doesn't mean your opinion matters nor is your opinion fact.
Molten Butter wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:2] Will you guys stop blaming the Imperium for the actions of the nobility of the Imperium. Do any of you realize that the nobility regularly flaunt Imperial law to do whatever they want? The nobility are the rulers of the individual planets cause the Imperium is decentralized. If a noble is a kind and wise ruler, good for the planet but if the ruler is bad well bad luck for the planet but this not Imperium's fault as it doesn't give a gak how a planet is ruled.
No.
Planets have to pay tithes, so the Imperium already gets some benefit from them. It is the Imperium's fault if they neglect to replace a bad ruler.
You truly have no understanding of politics or the meaning of autonomy do you nor do you have an understanding of 40k fluff. The Imperium gives each planet autonomy to do whatever they want as long as tithes(taxes) are paid and Imperial law is obeyed, the Imperium won't care how the planet is ruled. If the local ruler is replaced via a revolution but the planet doesn't seceded from the Imperium, the Imperium doesn't mind. There have been examples in real life where people will fight you even if you try and help them by replacing their ruler with someone better, they don't care, you are an outsider who changes things they believe they should change themselves.
Calm down, kid, and stop antagonizing. You truly have no understanding of Dakka Dakka rules, or Grammar, do you. Attacking people for having a different interpretation of fluff is a severe lack of integrity on your part. Leave this thread, cool down, and come back when you can handle differing opinions.
Nor do any of you have an understanding of scale. The Imperium doesn't watch the action of its citizens nor its individual leaders due to not having the technology to do it and its just to worth the resources to bother.
Humanity during the Dark age of technology wasn't hunky dory with aliens but neither were they killing all aliens. It was complicated web of trading with aliens, crushing alien empires beneath the might of the Iron men, having treaties with aliens that all collapsed during the Age of strife when the aliens took advantage of humanities weakness to attack. And no, the majority of humanity burned during the Age of Strife with few truly surviving like the Interex, Diasporex and the Technocracy.
Like there is a HH story of a human planet being discovered by the Imerium that had humans who were more machine than the Mechanicus ever managed, which is a feat in its own right. Anyway, the inhabitants of the planet kill the soldiers and then vivisect them to show the Imperium that they are not humans but aliens. This means that these group of humans despised aliens, now why would this be if aliens were simply misunderstood creatures?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KilroyKiljoy wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
1] There are no good guys in 40k. There are just the lesser evils, the true evils, the neutrals and the dicks.
THANK YOU KIND SIR.
In 40k there is evil and necessary evil. There can't be good guys in a grim-dark universe.
Nope, there's evil and eviler. I'd disagree with necessary evil.
Disagree all you want. It doesn't mean your opinion matters nor is your opinion fact.
Molten Butter wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:2] Will you guys stop blaming the Imperium for the actions of the nobility of the Imperium. Do any of you realize that the nobility regularly flaunt Imperial law to do whatever they want? The nobility are the rulers of the individual planets cause the Imperium is decentralized. If a noble is a kind and wise ruler, good for the planet but if the ruler is bad well bad luck for the planet but this not Imperium's fault as it doesn't give a gak how a planet is ruled.
No.
Planets have to pay tithes, so the Imperium already gets some benefit from them. It is the Imperium's fault if they neglect to replace a bad ruler.
You truly have no understanding of politics or the meaning of autonomy do you nor do you have an understanding of 40k fluff. The Imperium gives each planet autonomy to do whatever they want as long as tithes(taxes) are paid and Imperial law is obeyed, the Imperium won't care how the planet is ruled. If the local ruler is replaced via a revolution but the planet doesn't seceded from the Imperium, the Imperium doesn't mind. There have been examples in real life where people will fight you even if you try and help them by replacing their ruler with someone better, they don't care, you are an outsider who changes things they believe they should change themselves.
Calm down, kid, and stop antagonizing. You truly have no understanding of Dakka Dakka rules, or Grammar, do you. Attacking people for having a different interpretation of fluff is a severe lack of integrity on your part. Leave this thread, cool down, and come back when you can handle differing opinions.
I appologize for my bad grammar and everything else
That and it's extremely likely the views on Xenos would differ from planet to planet due to the fact that humanity was mostly divided at that point. Some would have to side with them out of necessity, others might have wanted to.
Oh another thing. OP, the Imperium doesn't go around exterminating worlds for being overpopulated. That is nothing but fanon just like the nonsense of the Imperium hating gay people.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Anyway, the inhabitants of the planet kill the soldiers and then vivisect them to show the Imperium that they are not humans but aliens. This means that these group of humans despised aliens, now why would this be if aliens were simply misunderstood creatures?
I can't tell if Brother Coa is trolling or not. Games Workshop, the people who created these fictional characters, have themselves pointed out that the Imperium is far from perfect.
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:I can't tell if Brother Coa is trolling or not. Games Workshop, the people who created these fictional characters, have themselves pointed out that the Imperium is far from perfect.
and giggles:
