I'm sure all of us here know the lasgun. The most common weapon in the imperium, it's carried by most guardsmen and it's favored even by the most eperienced veterans. It fires beams of red las in semi-auto or full-auto. It's accurate, light, cheap, easily manufactured and it has the great bennefit of it's power cells being capable of charging with sunlight.
Even so, it hasn't been treate with the respect such a powerful weapon deserves. People have reffered to them as "flashlights" and considere using themm as laser-rights for bolters of more powerful weapons. However, I'd like you to compare it with another weapon from the Imperial arsenal that even we are quite familiar with: the shotgun. They both have a very similar profile, except fpr the longer range of the former and the assault capability of the later.
Now, basing on pictures and assumptions, I cantell that the weapon some veterans ue are quite similar with our day's assault shotguns. Have you seen tho guns? Have you seen what they can do? I will show you.
WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGES: - Removed by insaniak. Completely unnecessary and not appropriate to the forum.
I hope that was a good example of the power that a shotgun holds. Now, that's a 12 gauge shotgun. Imagine all that power, condensed into a single beam of las. As an ork would say: "Dead killy." Suddenly, they don't look like flashlights at all, do they?
I'm not clicking that since while it could be a joke, I really don't need to see shotgun wounds. I'm pretty sure we all know that a shotgun will turn you to hamburger.
Lasguns are equivalent power to autoguns, which are basically modern assault rifles. The only reason they're considered a joke of a weapon is because in 40k everything is so ludicrous that conventional firearms must seem like toys comparatively.
Actually, most of the weapons the Guard uses are quite similar to our modern military. In fact, several countries have bombs that would make a Deathstrike look like a water baloon or tanks that would put a LRBT to shame. And no, the images aren't a joke, but they're not hamburger-like either. They were al taken from medical sites.
Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire. It's just the WWI/WWII aesthetic GW likes to roll with. And of course several countries have bombs that would make a Deathstrike look like a water balloon - it's not a nuke or anything.
Drawing parallels to 40k tabletop and the real world is strained at best, laughable at worst. It just doesn't translate.
Those really aren't images that are appropriate for this forum, or even to the point you are trying to make. I have seen enough of this and much worse to fill my nightmares for a lifetime, don't particularly need it encroaching my game time as well. Please take those down.
Shotguns are str. 4 and lasguns are str 3.
also... i think that GW tends to model more towards WW1 than later wars with respect to the Landraider and the sponsons on most tanks in their system. also... rhino are clearly M113. I think GW just borrows whatever rather than focus on any one era.
My gut reaction to something as horrifying as those pictures, is to get something to eat.
If I remember, a lasgun shot to an unarmored limb will mangle it or just blow it clean off. They're rather piddly stat-wise, but fluff-wise, I'd like the twenty thousand flashlights pointed away from me.
Now, the reason that Lasgun is weak is because all other weapons are very much OVERPOWERED.
In terms of our primitive weapons who can't take down a carboard on 200m ( see Future weapons M-16 testing ), 1 Las shot on high setting can easily go trough 2m of solid concrete.
And not to mention the bolter who has a f***ing mini boost and who explode into bits when entering the body. And Tau have freaking plasma rifles as standard equipment ( not as powerful as real plasma but powerful enough )...
As said earlier, lasguns are the target of jokes because they are ridiculously underpowered against a big Tyranid, for example. Shotguns are better weapons against hordes of small creatures, up close.
If a modern day soldier and a single guardsman would fight, the guardsman would emerge victorious. Bullets would just bounce off his flak armor and when he would fire his lasgun, half of the soldier's head would disappear, even with a helmet on his head.
sennacherib wrote:Shotguns are str. 4 and lasguns are str 3.
also... i think that GW tends to model more towards WW1 than later wars with respect to the Landraider and the sponsons on most tanks in their system. also... rhino are clearly M113. I think GW just borrows whatever rather than focus on any one era.
Space Marine shotguns are S4, Guard shotguns are S3.
I've heard that a powerful laser to the head makes your brain pop.
That's hearsay though, unless all that soggyness in the head makes the laser try to burn it away to get out the other side.
If a laser can burn through concrete, it'd have no problems with flesh or gory bits.
Ultrafool wrote:Those images are just wrong. Even with a warning those pictures do not belong on a "family forum".
I agree. WTF does that have to do with this forum? You can get your point across with words rather then saying, hey click on pictures of suicide victims
Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.
Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.
For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.
cgmckenzie wrote:Those really aren't images that are appropriate for this forum, or even to the point you are trying to make. I have seen enough of this and much worse to fill my nightmares for a lifetime, don't particularly need it encroaching my game time as well. Please take those down.
-cgmckenzie
Meh, don't click on them then.
Also, I agree with the idea that you can't compare Modern Day to 40K. Mainly because fantasy and reality don't blend well in dry comparisons. As for simply Lasgun to modern day comparisons, I'd say its about a .308
cgmckenzie wrote:Those really aren't images that are appropriate for this forum, or even to the point you are trying to make. I have seen enough of this and much worse to fill my nightmares for a lifetime, don't particularly need it encroaching my game time as well. Please take those down.
-cgmckenzie
Meh, don't click on them then.
Also, I agree with the idea that you can't compare Modern Day to 40K. Mainly because fantasy and reality don't blend well in dry comparisons. As for simply Lasgun to modern day comparisons, I'd say its about a .308
Honestly i'd personally say thats a bit of a stretch, as Lasguns are well known for their lack of penetrating power (it takes advanced armor [eg. Above type III] to stop a .308).
Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.
Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.
For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.
Well because at that point it's not sloped against the angle of attack. However for attacks occurring at roughly the same elevation, the sloping will always be useful, not only for deflection but because of the increased effective armor thickness.
About the only time sloping won't really help is when you're attempting to disable the tank without penetrating the armor, such as flamethrower attacks (actually rather effective in killing crew and engines) or high explosives that don't necessarily penetrate the armor but through the shock may kill the crew or smash mechanical devices.
Let's be honest, few of the vehicles in 40k exhibit intelligent combat vehicle design, and the Leman Russ is certainly no exception.
From how I see it, lasguns are terribly effective. They are only jokingly referred to as "flashlights" because they are somewhat weakish in direct comparison to the other terrible weapons of the 41st millennium, most of which are employed by forces trading the Guard's numerical advantage for superior technology (bolters, pulse rifles, etc) and/or a massive boost to survivability (xeno hides).
GW fluff described Marine power armour as reducing the chance for injury by 50-85% against "most small arms", which I take as referring to or at least including lasguns. This is pretty compatible with the TT rules, actually.
The image of the sturdy lasgun is just treated very "stepmotherly" as a result of various sources (predominantly the licensed non-GW stuff like novels) slightly twisting the setting to appeal to their readers - unless said source features the Guard, so go figure.
PS: I also think lasgun blasts are actually blue. From the description of their sci-fi physics, the shots have a few somewhat lightning'ish attributes in that they produce sound and explode on impact. The Final Liberation computer game also had IG lasguns and multilasers firing blue. The only time I've seen red lasguns was the Dawn of War series. FFG's RPG depicts them as blue again.
The aforementioned titles are all non-GW products so may not mean much, but if the "lasguns = red" idea comes solely from DoW, ...
Being in the military things that I have come across in 40k don't make much sense. Especially the Leman Russ. It annoys me that it is WW2ish but hey what ya can ya do?
But I think in the books I've read with IG they lasgun blows. A lot of trauma is caused by the bullet bouncing around and/or exiting. The lasgun doesn't have a "bullet" so it can't bounce around. I'm not sure about exiting but it's going to seal up any major bleeding because its burn anything it touches.
And besides if everyone had bolters what would the Space Marines signature weapon be?
Newer Imperial Lasguns fire blue, older ones fire red or orange shots-at least based off of the Gaunts Ghosts novels.
Anyhow, in Games Workshops roleplaying games lasguns are quite capable of killing their target's outright with just one burst, you just can't have a model that costs 6pts having a weapon that can do that with every shot (they can do that in regular games though, the enemy just take less armour saves)...lest you upgrade all the game's weaponary and make bolters capable of instant killing anything with T3 (....which they also already do as they ignore the armour of almost everything in the guard codex). ...So yeah...Lasguns are pretty good at representing what they do actually. =/
Kilkrazy wrote:Lasguns are like a lot of the other stuff in 40K. They ignore physical laws in order to work.
It's science fantasy.
Not necessarily. It depends on your interpretation of the science behind it.
For example, it certainly would violate the laws of physics if it launched a bolt of slow light like in star wars. But I don't think it does. And I also disagree with the idea that it cauterizes wounds-- it should actually flash-boil blood and cause devastating wounds, similar to hydrostatic shock on a kinetic round.
Lasguns arn't piddly in the fluff, they are just piddly in the game because they arn't that great against marines(which most people run)
against Orks they arn't that bad. every wound will drop an ork most of the time(c'mon 6s )
Lasguns are able to drop marines in the fluff, but that requires them to be set on Maximum power(which is what Ap3 Hotshots represent) but many lasguns don't have a power slider because they want the guardsmen to conserve ammunition. The Munitorum Manuel states that there are literally thousands of different lasgun variations so any supposed inconsistancies can be explained away.
that and the In-game stats had to be balaced.
you want everyone to be able to fire Ap3 lasguns? ok, but Marines are going up to T5 and will all have 3 wounds.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns arn't piddly in the fluff, they are just piddly in the game because they arn't that great against marines(which most people run)
against Orks they arn't that bad. every wound will drop an ork most of the time(c'mon 6s )
Lasguns are able to drop marines in the fluff, but that requires them to be set on Maximum power(which is what Ap3 Hotshots represent) but many lasguns don't have a power slider because they want the guardsmen to conserve ammunition. The Munitorum Manuel states that there are literally thousands of different lasgun variations so any supposed inconsistancies can be explained away.
that and the In-game stats had to be balaced.
you want everyone to be able to fire Ap3 lasguns? ok, but Marines are going up to T5 and will all have 3 wounds.
Hmm okay, this makes some sense. IGLGs have power settings to increase of decrease their AP. So in theory these weapons are far superior to bolters then?
As far as logistics go, yes. but bolters still cause more grievous wounds and have the ability to utilize specialist ammunition. Boltguns are also capable of being silenced, lasguns aren't.
Melissia wrote:For example, it certainly would violate the laws of physics if it launched a bolt of slow light like in star wars.
Mhmm, Star Wars blasters are plasma guns, not lasers, at least according to their canon description. SW tech actually makes far more sense than meets the eye at first glance. Same with lightsabers.
It's still sci-fi wishy washy, but it doesn't sound as stupid as many people seem to think.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns are able to drop marines in the fluff, but that requires them to be set on Maximum power
Not really, maximum power just increases the likelyhood of injury beyond standard. I suppose the less energy a shot has, the more you'd have to rely on luck to hit a weaker spot of the armour. In-game stats are a perfect representation. Actually, from how it sounds like, the fluff was pretty much written in a way to more or less represent the in-game stats (notice how the "one in six shots" of a lasgun you'd need to have a chance at dropping a Marine is ~16%, fitting perfectly to GW's fluff of power armour providing up to 85% of protection against injury by small arms - the remaining 15% meaning threat by lasgun fire).
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns arn't piddly in the fluff, they are just piddly in the game because they arn't that great against marines(which most people run)
against Orks they arn't that bad. every wound will drop an ork most of the time(c'mon 6s )
Lasguns are able to drop marines in the fluff, but that requires them to be set on Maximum power(which is what Ap3 Hotshots represent) but many lasguns don't have a power slider because they want the guardsmen to conserve ammunition. The Munitorum Manuel states that there are literally thousands of different lasgun variations so any supposed inconsistancies can be explained away.
that and the In-game stats had to be balaced.
you want everyone to be able to fire Ap3 lasguns? ok, but Marines are going up to T5 and will all have 3 wounds.
Hmm okay, this makes some sense. IGLGs have power settings to increase of decrease their AP. So in theory these weapons are far superior to bolters then?
Not really, firing on maximum power without using specilized powerpacks can cause damage to the weapon(Lasguns can explode with deadly force) and decreses the life of the power pack.
Hotshot Lasguns and power packs are specialy designed to fire on maximum settings.
Bolters are still more powerful weapons. the lasgun is superior in its cheapness to manufacture and the logisical savings by not having any ammo to ship around.
I you want to know how strong str 3 is fluffwise, look at grot blastas; they are over one foot in lenght and bigger than a marines helmet. Im talking of these pistol-things....
No they aren't. The models are out of scale. Grots are quite a bit smaller than humans, a normal human pistol would look comedically large in their hands-- like a ten year old trying to hold a magnum revolver.
SwiftLord14 wrote:But I think in the books I've read with IG they lasgun blows. A lot of trauma is caused by the bullet bouncing around and/or exiting. The lasgun doesn't have a "bullet" so it can't bounce around. I'm not sure about exiting but it's going to seal up any major bleeding because its burn anything it touches.
The damage from a lasgun is mainly from transferring thermal energy to the tissue surrounding the beam. This can literally 'cook' organs and create a large amount of damage. Although they do seal the wounds and prevent blood loss, a medic would have to reopen said wounds in order to address the internal damage.
But the modern day laser requires a power-supply the size of a small building in order to do any of that. It's not in a man-portable, handheld unit fed from a powercell the same size and weight as a pack of cigarettes.
Further, there are, as yet, no effective weapons-grade lasers designed for use by an infantryman. The laser requires too much focus-time on the target to inflict injury, let alone death, and battle-field conditions simply do not permit this. We're still a long, long way from fielding "blaster rifles", unless some significant tech breakthrough is realized.
That said... yeah, a lasgun will cause your brain to cook. The water in your blood, as well as encephalic fluids, will flash-cook into steam. When water turns to gas, it expands, causing a pressure spike. Whether or not this will be enough to cause your head to literally explode is questionable... but it's certainly going to be very damaging. On a limb, it may cause surface skin and musculature to burst under the steam pressure, but will not likely cauterize the wound, unless the beam is of sufficient power to inflict a "through and through" wound.
Psienesis wrote:But the modern day laser requires a power-supply the size of a small building in order to do any of that. It's not in a man-portable, handheld unit fed from a powercell the same size and weight as a pack of cigarettes.
Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.
Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.
For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.
The new Strykers actually have a metal cage around the side of it, it's meant to cause RPGs to explode before it has a chance to hit the hull. On a side note though, the MRAPs have a sloped undebelly which causes the blast to move outwards, as opposed to having the flat hull take on all the force. I've driven both of these and seen the result after they've hit a mine. The Strkyer (which has a flat underbelly) had a hole int he bottom that had gone straight through the armor and torn into the inner compartment. The MRAP with it's angled bottom had it's tires blown off (which it's supposed to do) but no damage had been done to the inside. The crew of the MRAP actually walked away from it, the driver had received a broken rib from hitting the steering wheel.
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As some one else mentioned, the heat of a lasgun would also seal the wound. I'm not sure whether it would cause organs to explode, however, in the codex it does state that it causes tiny explosions.
In todays wars most soldiers die from blood loss rather than instant death. Bleeding is the number one priority to treat when it comes to first aid. If a Lasgun seals the wound then it's actually a far less brutal weapon then a shotgun. Also, chances are a Lasgun shot would enter and exit, assuming it didn't hit any form of armor. This also makes the chances of recovery better, having an exit wound means you're not going to have to fish a bullet out of them.
When it comes to killing human targets, conventional weapons serve a better purpose then laser technology. The armor soldiers wear today can stop 1 or 2 rounds before being rendered useless. Kevlar helmets will cripple under a single shot unless it was a glancing shot, they issue helmets to soldiers to make them feel safer.
Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.
Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.
For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.
The new Strykers actually have a metal cage around the side of it, it's meant to cause RPGs to explode before it has a chance to hit the hull. On a side note though, the MRAPs have a sloped undebelly which causes the blast to move outwards, as opposed to having the flat hull take on all the force. I've driven both of these and seen the result after they've hit a mine. The Strkyer (which has a flat underbelly) had a hole int he bottom that had gone straight through the armor and torn into the inner compartment. The MRAP with it's angled bottom had it's tires blown off (which it's supposed to do) but no damage had been done to the inside. The crew of the MRAP actually walked away from it, the driver had received a broken rib from hitting the steering wheel.
The Stryker's metal cages don't detonate an RPG warhead (well it MAY detonate but that's secondary), they crush it on impact and destroy it's geometry so the white hot jet of copper plasma can't form. Knowing is half the battle
Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.
Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.
For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.
The new Strykers actually have a metal cage around the side of it, it's meant to cause RPGs to explode before it has a chance to hit the hull. On a side note though, the MRAPs have a sloped undebelly which causes the blast to move outwards, as opposed to having the flat hull take on all the force. I've driven both of these and seen the result after they've hit a mine. The Strkyer (which has a flat underbelly) had a hole int he bottom that had gone straight through the armor and torn into the inner compartment. The MRAP with it's angled bottom had it's tires blown off (which it's supposed to do) but no damage had been done to the inside. The crew of the MRAP actually walked away from it, the driver had received a broken rib from hitting the steering wheel.
The Stryker's metal cages don't detonate an RPG warhead (well it MAY detonate but that's secondary), they crush it on impact and destroy it's geometry so the white hot jet of copper plasma can't form. Knowing is half the battle
Lol, that's actually pretty cool. When I visited one of the Stryker repair plants they must have just given us the simple answer rather then explain everything. They're still fun to drive, haha.
Just saing he put a warning up then you had to click again to get the link then again click the link, so if you went that far you know what your getting yourself into so please don't complain that's just childish, on top of that may I remind you that you play a game that involves nothing but war and death so cumon folks, it's just like putting your hand on an electric fence that has warnings that it's electric, YOUR going to get shocked people (same thing here you play a game of war and click on images with warnings of bad things your going to see some bad things, simple as that.)
Psienesis wrote:But the modern day laser requires a power-supply the size of a small building in order to do any of that. It's not in a man-portable, handheld unit fed from a powercell the same size and weight as a pack of cigarettes.
Further, there are, as yet, no effective weapons-grade lasers designed for use by an infantryman. The laser requires too much focus-time on the target to inflict injury, let alone death, and battle-field conditions simply do not permit this. We're still a long, long way from fielding "blaster rifles", unless some significant tech breakthrough is realized.
Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?
Cain wrote:Just saing he put a warning up then you had to click again to get the link then again click the link, so if you went that far you know what your getting yourself into so please don't complain that's just childish, on top of that may I remind you that you play a game that involves nothing but war and death so cumon folks, it's just like putting your hand on an electric fence that has warnings that it's electric, YOUR going to get shocked people (same thing here you play a game of war and click on images with warnings of bad things your going to see some bad things, simple as that.)
The complaints were that images do not belong on the forum which they don't, thats why the mods put them in link form. I have seen my far share of dead disfigured people, thats because I'm an adult. There are many kids on dakka who have most likey never seen this kind of stuff before. Putting "WARNING DISTURBING IMAGES" on the thread title makes people curious, thats why people click. As kingkracker said, the OP could of used words. We play a game that involves war, but its in our head so to speak, you don't see blood and gore when you play on the table. The OP was showing real dead people in the spoilers, things that could harm people mentally.
KingCracker wrote:Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?
it could burn a hole through a human.
but the Human body is full of water and water absorbes energy, specifically heat, quite readily.
Its only going to burn a hole in thinner parts. otherwise, its one massive, and deep, 3rd degree burn.
KingCracker wrote:Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?
I'm not entirely sure if lasguns are "just" lasers - their effects actually seem to be a combination of different physical theories, which leads me to believe that the authors didn't quite think through what they were writing back then. We have to keep in mind that this is a science fiction setting - just look at, say, bolter ammunition, which is supposed to contain depleted deuterium, and that just doesn't make sense. Sometimes, one just has to suspend physics and disbelief a little.
That said, if lasguns are able to burn a hole through power armour to injure the wearer, I'm fairly certain they could burn a hole through a human body as well. Grey Templar's explanation sounds viable as well, though. Personally, I wouldn't want to try out. I guess this is something that will also see a great deal of personal interpretation amongst BL authors.
Considering strength 3, the strength of a lasbolt or IG shotgun, is the same strength as an average Guardsman? If guns were only as strong as we can punch, we wouldn't use them very often.
If you want an accurate representation of lasguns compared to real weapons, look into one of the FFGRPG books. The system is much more freeform and lets you actually show differences in power better.
Brother SRM wrote:Considering strength 3, the strength of a lasbolt or IG shotgun, is the same strength as an average Guardsman? If guns were only as strong as we can punch, we wouldn't use them very often.
If you want an accurate representation of lasguns compared to real weapons, look into one of the FFGRPG books. The system is much more freeform and lets you actually show differences in power better.
I've always looked at the strength in the profile as what they're strength is whilst using the bayonet/butt stock or a chainsword. Regardless, the point still stands, you can't get a very accurate description from looking at the stats.
Belexar wrote:Actually, most of the weapons the Guard uses are quite similar to our modern military. In fact, several countries have bombs that would make a Deathstrike look like a water baloon or tanks that would put a LRBT to shame. And no, the images aren't a joke, but they're not hamburger-like either. They were al taken from medical sites.
Deathstrike Missiles have, after impact, completely destabilised the tectonic plates of a planet and caused earthquakes across the world that killed millions.
Our race has yet to make a bomb that could even dream of doing that.
Lasguns are considered pathetic because they ARE pathetic compared to bolters, and even a bolter doesn't have a great chance of killing a Marine. In the 4e Chaos codex, a Chaos Marine takes three hits to the chest from a bolter and just gets angry, and a Loyalist proceeds to take a bolt-round from a pistol point-blank in the face, and is only disoriented. Power Armour is durable, being able to even sustain damage from city-annihilating psyker blasts that completely incinerate guardsman, or orbital bombardments.
Bolt-rounds, and even Las-rounds, can penetrate it, but not reliably, especially when discussing las-rounds.
Want to know what happened when an Ork Warboss (No Mega Armour, just a Warboss) is shot in the chest by a well-aimed Las-round? Nothing, as seen in the rulebook fluff. It was about as debilitating as being smacked by a napkin. And the rulebook fluff also makes it clear that Lasfire cannot easily fell even a normal Boy in a mob, stating that occasionally an Ork would fall, but only from a clean headshot.
Lasfire furthermore also just kind of illuminates the exoskeleton of a Necron Warrior (Like a flashlight :3 ), although I am sure it "can" injure a Necron Warrior, it happens far less often than it doesn't (To be honest I cannot recall a single instance of a Warrior being felled by a Las-round, actually), though Necrons are to be fair individually the most endurant race in 40k, with a few exceptions.
Lasguns are very powerful weaponry by today's standards, capable of piercing through two meters of concrete. But in 40k, that's not that impressive, it is telling that every single other army is armed with better weaponry standard-issue.
KingCracker wrote:Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?
Imagine a weapon capable of flash-boiling your blood at a specific location. What kind of wound would the sudden expansion of gaseous blood in one's flesh leave?
Lasguns would cause heads to explode for example, especially if it got through the bone.
Void__Dragon wrote:Power Armour is durable, being able to even sustain damage from [...] orbital bombardments.
No. Orbital bombardment would, if not actually vaporize, turn power armor to slag. Hell, even terminator armor is most likely to be destroyed by orbital bombardment, only being saved by its force field... if that.
A single orbital lance strike is capable of easily wiping out a full squad of Marines-- in fact, it'd be miraculous if any of them didn't die. Nevermind a full on bombardment.
Brother SRM wrote:Considering strength 3, the strength of a lasbolt or IG shotgun, is the same strength as an average Guardsman? If guns were only as strong as we can punch, we wouldn't use them very often.
I wouldn't compare these values directly. They are as abstracted as a game turn, and just like a single lasgun attack doesn't mean your guy is just firing a single shot, a melee attack using the model's strength doesn't mean the soldier is going to give the other one a punch. I imagine it would be a bit more dramatic, with the Guardsman pulling his bayonet and lunging at the enemy, trying to stab him a few times in the gut or grapple him and slit his throat. That should easily be as lethal as a ranged attack.
Brother SRM wrote:If you want an accurate representation of lasguns compared to real weapons, look into one of the FFGRPG books. The system is much more freeform and lets you actually show differences in power better.
Meh, those stats were chosen rather arbitrarily and, at times, clearly contradict studio material. That said, the difference between a shotgun and a lasgun in that system isn't exactly big either. One does 1d10+3 and the other 1d10+4 damage, which is pretty much in line with the TT stats.
In this instance, this is actually reflected in the RPG that Games Workshop themselves have put out, too. I see lasguns on standard setting doing slightly less damage than a 40k shotgun or autogun - but you can increase their damage by up to ~33% using the power slider and expending more energy per shot, at which point they start doing notably more damage than these projectile weapons.
Speaking of, in that RPG, GW describes lasguns as "working by firing a blast of highly charged light which transforms into heat and kinetic energy upon impact, causing tissue damage and burning."
Melissia wrote:No. Orbital bombardment would, if not actually vaporize, turn power armor to slag.
"Amid the chaos, Kai is forced to abandon any pretence of a fighting retreat. He makes contact with the Sky Sentinels fleet, who begin a systematic bombardment of the temple site. Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs that explode amongst the ruins - the Daemons and the Tyranids are not so fortunate. When the bombardment ceases, Kai and the surviving Grey Knights evacuate before Daemon and Tyranid forces can arrive."
- Grey Knight codex, page 17
Anyway, as to the OP, as a Space Marine player my Shotguns are Strength 4. How does this effect your appraisal of their relative strength vis a vis modern day weaponry?
Void__Dragon wrote:
"Amid the chaos, Kai is forced to abandon any pretence of a fighting retreat. He makes contact with the Sky Sentinels fleet, who begin a systematic bombardment of the temple site. Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs that explode amongst the ruins - the Daemons and the Tyranids are not so fortunate. When the bombardment ceases, Kai and the surviving Grey Knights evacuate before Daemon and Tyranid forces can arrive."
- Grey Knight codex, page 17
Belexar wrote:Actually, most of the weapons the Guard uses are quite similar to our modern military. In fact, several countries have bombs that would make a Deathstrike look like a water baloon or tanks that would put a LRBT to shame. And no, the images aren't a joke, but they're not hamburger-like either. They were al taken from medical sites.
the Deathstrike missile is NOT anywhere near what its like in the fluff.
in the fluff, a Deathstrike can level small hives and cause tectonic destabilization. it also has a range of nearly an entire planet.
GW toned it down for use in normal games because they wanted to sell models.
Melissia wrote:No. Orbital bombardment would, if not actually vaporize, turn power armor to slag.
"Amid the chaos, Kai is forced to abandon any pretence of a fighting retreat. He makes contact with the Sky Sentinels fleet, who begin a systematic bombardment of the temple site. Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs that explode amongst the ruins - the Daemons and the Tyranids are not so fortunate. When the bombardment ceases, Kai and the surviving Grey Knights evacuate before Daemon and Tyranid forces can arrive." - Grey Knight codex, page 17
An orbital lance strike is S10 AP1. The only way it could be more powerful in tabletop is if it was SD. The only way the Grey Knights would survive that is through psychic shielding, not through their power armor, which is insufficient to the task. It would be SD, but that's apocalypse only. "Barrage bombs", if they cannot even get through power armor, would be a very, very weak form of orbital bombardment. Meltaguns are stronger than that-- a Guard meltagun can easily blow a hole straight through a space marine. Krak missiles are stronger than that-- they can thoroughly demolish power armor and instantly kill the marine inside in one hit. Both of these are supported by Black Library fluff. "Barrage Bombs" are probably closer to a cluster bomb type ordnance than anything else, otherwise that's just Mat Ward being a douche.
The pics were a little too hardcore for the website...but all in the all the lasgun is made fun of because in comparison to the rest of the weapons in 40k it is essentially a laser pointer on overdrive
I can understand why people think that they're weak, but even on the tabletop they have a 50/50 chance of causing a wound so grievous as to kill or incapacitate a human in one shot. I consider that a pretty damn deadly weapon.
Melissia wrote:An orbital lance strike is S10 AP1. The only way it could be more powerful in tabletop is if it was SD. The only way the Grey Knights would survive that is through psychic shielding, not through their power armor, which is insufficient to the task. It would be SD, but that's apocalypse only. "Barrage bombs", if they cannot even get through power armor, would be a very, very weak form of orbital bombardment. Meltaguns are stronger than that-- a Guard meltagun can easily blow a hole straight through a space marine. Krak missiles are stronger than that-- they can thoroughly demolish power armor and instantly kill the marine inside in one hit. Both of these are supported by Black Library fluff. "Barrage Bombs" are probably closer to a cluster bomb type ordnance than anything else, otherwise that's just Mat Ward being a douche.
The Barrage Bombs were able to kill the Tyranids and Greater Daemons present, and the passage confirms that Carnifexes and Tyrannofexes were present at the site of the barrage, though you are right in that when bombarding a planet they focus more on a diffuse blast radius than pure penetrating power.
I never said that a Space Marine could survive all forms of orbital bombardment (And you will notice until now I never once mentioned "orbital lance strikes"), just that they have survived it. The "orbital lance strike" is on the tabletop as powerful as a Deathstrike Missile, which as I said, can destabilise the tectonic plates of a planet. So while Barrage Bombs are not the strongest form orbital bombardment can take, it is not "weak." Meltaguns are geared specifically towards penetrating armour, IIRC they can melt through a bunker pretty easily. Krak Missiles similarly are not "weak" by any stretch of the word, when the Salamanders fought the Dark Eldar in Commorragh, single Krak missiles sent massive Dark Eldar spires toppling.
Power armour is capable of surviving other immensely powerful blasts, another example being Ahriman's psychic bomb he left which destroyed the largest Great Library outside of Sol and apparently "rocked the planet on its axis," though I'm willing to say that's hyperbole. But said blast completely incinerated every guardsman present, the Marines were protected by their armour.
The Lasgun is not powerful by 40k standards, and I have not once heard of a Marine being killed by one in a single shot wearing armour. Even bolters are not likely to do that.
As mentioned in GW studio material, power armour does not appear to be that invulnerable. It cannot be, else it would be a little unfair for the Tabletop, for which the fluff was created (as it was *not* the other way around).
That said, of course all kinds of protection stack - you could explain the bit mentioned in the GK Codex by the bombardment hitting the ruins - inside which the Astartes were located - and the power armour protecting the Marines from the falling debris. Just to provide a potential solution for this apparent contradiction.
Lynata wrote:As mentioned in GW studio material, power armour does not appear to be that invulnerable. It cannot be, else it would be a little unfair for the Tabletop, for which the fluff was created (as it was *not* the other way around).
That said, of course all kinds of protection stack - you could explain the bit mentioned in the GK Codex by the bombardment hitting the ruins - inside which the Astartes were located - and the power armour protecting the Marines from the falling debris. Just to provide a potential solution for this apparent contradiction.
Why would it be unfair for the tabletop? Necron Warriors can take heavy bolters to the chest without dropping in the fluff, and plasma weaponry is considered "ineffective" according to the "Dawn of the C'tan" story that was on GW's website, both of these are also somewhat true on the tabletop. A guardsman is nowhere near the equal of either, in the fluff, or on the tabletop (To be honest, reading the fluff, one gets the impression that the difference between them on the tabletop isn't big enough).
Actually falling debris in the GK codex was one of the things that was actually killing Marines of the Invaders chapter, hundreds of tons of stone and steel crushing them after the Warpfire that destroyed the Librarium and incinerated the guard failed to kill them. And the fluff directly stating they weathered the barrage bombs with their armour, not crediting the ruins themselves.
Space Marines with their armour have taken bolt-rounds to the face and only been dazed, Ork Boys are able to weather lasgun fire even with their crappy armour (Getting by mostly on sheer toughness), a lasgun is not likely to do a thing on its own. That's why the guard employs so many of them, quantity over quality.
Void__Dragon wrote:Why would it be unfair for the tabletop? Necron Warriors can take heavy bolters to the chest without dropping in the fluff, and plasma weaponry is considered "ineffective" according to the "Dawn of the C'tan" story that was on GW's website, both of these are also somewhat true on the tabletop.
"Ineffective" is a rather ambiguous term - a wooden club is ineffective compared to a handgun, but both can kill a man. As far as Necron Warriors vs Heavy Bolters are concerned, the NW still has to succeed on 3+ saves to avoid getting dropped; there's a very realistic chance that an attack will take the model out. However, when you increase power armour protection of Marines, Sisters and Inquisitors against lasguns further, other high-tiered models would likewise have to have their protection raised and the whole system starts to wiggle. The chance is already small enough, but perfect to represent those lucky shots that either hit a weaker or damaged spot of the armour.
Void__Dragon wrote:A guardsman is nowhere near the equal of either, in the fluff, or on the tabletop (To be honest, reading the fluff, one gets the impression that the difference between them on the tabletop isn't big enough).
In terms of fluff, one has to be careful to differentiate between objective description and epic legend, most notably the non-canonical exaggerations of certain BL novels who I think have cultivated a very twisted image of the Astartes' actual capabilities amongst their fans. Studio material such as the Marine codices is already fairly generous when it comes to describing the awesome feats of the Adeptus Astartes, but it still leaves enough room for interpretation to make it suit the TT rules. Of course interpretation can also move to the other side and there are certainly enough allusions to validate the image of immortal supermen (just like one could easily accuse the quoted vulnerability of Marine power armour as being outdated due to the age of that codex), but this is dependent on one's own personal preferences. I myself am biased in favor of a more gritty, "grounded" experience.
Perhaps it is wrong to say that either our perception is "false". Given that GW has (sadly) scaled back on adding hard facts and numbers to their descriptions in the recent years, it may be working as intended that there is quite a lot of leeway. It works for BL authors as well, after all.
Void__Dragon wrote:Actually falling debris in the GK codex was one of the things that was actually killing Marines of the Invaders chapter, hundreds of tons of stone and steel crushing them after the Warpfire that destroyed the Librarium and incinerated the guard failed to kill them. And the fluff directly stating they weathered the barrage bombs with their armour, not crediting the ruins themselves.
Just saying that falling debris may easily be considered part of the bombardment - given that one would be caused by the other. In WW2, the majority of people did not actually die to the bomb blasts but to the fires they caused or because the building they were in collapsed or because they suffocated in the ruins and shelters, but still those casualties are all accredited to "the bombardment". This too is a matter of interpretation.
That said, I like finding potential explanations/excuses to bring apparent contradictions in the fluff "in line" - another bias of mine.
Void__Dragon wrote:That's why the guard employs so many of them, quantity over quality.
Yet, this still means that a single lasgun must have a chance of doing something. This is something where FFG's RPG sadly fails in its rules, because weapon damage doesn't magically increase just because you use more of them. The only thing that does increase is the rate of fire and the likelyhood of the target being hit. A Guardsman shooting his lasgun 10 times will do exactly the same as 10 Guardsmen shooting once. The Tabletop pays heed to this fact by giving lasguns a comparatively low chance to drop a Marine, but still leaving this chance to exist - so the more Guardsmen you field, the more likely you are to yield a result.
Lynata wrote:A Guardsman shooting his lasgun 10 times will do exactly the same as 10 Guardsmen shooting once.
Unless the Guardsmen hit the same spot simultaneously, which with a large number of Guardsmen could happen. Or one spot is hit repeatedly by the same Guardsman, and is weakened by the successive shots.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Unless the Guardsmen hit the same spot simultaneously, which with a large number of Guardsmen could happen. Or one spot is hit repeatedly by the same Guardsman, and is weakened by the successive shots.
Aye, but I would think that the chance of one Guardsman hitting the same spot multiple times is exactly the same as with 10 Guardsmen hitting it once.
LOL at people unable to take images of dead people. they are disturbing but come on now. no need to cry. the people of this world are too soft. everything offends everyone lololololo.
ON TOPIC Lasguns as I seen it are pretty powerful in the books. if I rem correctly Eisenhorn got his hand blown off by a lasgun? that's a pretty good in terms of power. now maybe it loses a lot of energy when it comes to penetration of armor but still not every gun is men't to handle all jobs ;D
Void__Dragon wrote:So while Barrage Bombs are not the strongest form orbital bombardment can take, it is not "weak."
If they're unable to penetrate power armor, they're weak as an orbital bombardment tool.
Pathetically weak. You could protect yourself from that kind of bomb just by stepping inside most Imperial buildings, nevermind military vehicles or bunkers. Or a cave.
Lynata wrote:"Ineffective" is a rather ambiguous term - a wooden club is ineffective compared to a handgun, but both can kill a man. As far as Necron Warriors vs Heavy Bolters are concerned, the NW still has to succeed on 3+ saves to avoid getting dropped; there's a very realistic chance that an attack will take the model out. However, when you increase power armour protection of Marines, Sisters and Inquisitors against lasguns further, other high-tiered models would likewise have to have their protection raised and the whole system starts to wiggle. The chance is already small enough, but perfect to represent those lucky shots that either hit a weaker or damaged spot of the armour.
In terms of fluff, one has to be careful to differentiate between objective description and epic legend, most notably the non-canonical exaggerations of certain BL novels who I think have cultivated a very twisted image of the Astartes' actual capabilities amongst their fans. Studio material such as the Marine codices is already fairly generous when it comes to describing the awesome feats of the Adeptus Astartes, but it still leaves enough room for interpretation to make it suit the TT rules. Of course interpretation can also move to the other side and there are certainly enough allusions to validate the image of immortal supermen (just like one could easily accuse the quoted vulnerability of Marine power armour as being outdated due to the age of that codex), but this is dependent on one's own personal preferences. I myself am biased in favor of a more gritty, "grounded" experience.
Perhaps it is wrong to say that either our perception is "false". Given that GW has (sadly) scaled back on adding hard facts and numbers to their descriptions in the recent years, it may be working as intended that there is quite a lot of leeway. It works for BL authors as well, after all.
Just saying that falling debris may easily be considered part of the bombardment - given that one would be caused by the other. In WW2, the majority of people did not actually die to the bomb blasts but to the fires they caused or because the building they were in collapsed or because they suffocated in the ruins and shelters, but still those casualties are all accredited to "the bombardment". This too is a matter of interpretation.
That said, I like finding potential explanations/excuses to bring apparent contradictions in the fluff "in line" - another bias of mine.
Yet, this still means that a single lasgun must have a chance of doing something. This is something where FFG's RPG sadly fails in its rules, because weapon damage doesn't magically increase just because you use more of them. The only thing that does increase is the rate of fire and the likelyhood of the target being hit. A Guardsman shooting his lasgun 10 times will do exactly the same as 10 Guardsmen shooting once. The Tabletop pays heed to this fact by giving lasguns a comparatively low chance to drop a Marine, but still leaving this chance to exist - so the more Guardsmen you field, the more likely you are to yield a result.
1. Well, it is all relative. The OP is basically saying that Lasguns don't get enough respect, and are powerful weapons. By today's standards, that is certainly true. By 40k's standards, they are the weakest standard-issue weapon in the setting. Heavy Bolters can of course down a Necron Warrior temporarily, but their exoskeletons have been shown to be able to resist them as well. A Heavy Bolter is obviously superior to a lasgun. Now, do not think I am suggesting anything like lasguns should be nerfed or armour buffed to better represent fluff; I'm not. Though I don't think the rules necessarily represent fluff, either. For instance, the Wraithlord is physically stronger and tougher than the Avatar of Khaine. Yet, in the Tyranid codex, the Hive Tyrant that effortlessly shrugged off Wraithlord attacks and casually tore them to pieces, chose to avoid fighting the Avatar of Khaine, because it apparently would have lost. But, I digress, just saying that rules don't necessarily correlate perfectly with fluff.
2. In the codex fluff, single marines can hold off an invasion of Orks (Numbering millions) for days apparently. And then of course there are individuals like Kaldor Draigo, the most overexagerrated and overpowered character in 40k short of actual deities, who makes any BL "exagerration" look tame in comparison. It doesn't take BL to overhype, I guess is my point. There are contradictions within the codices themselves, I myself came across one in the Dark Angels and Ork codices regarding one another. Space Marines may not be technically immortal, but they are supermen, each one capable of feats vastly eclipsing that of a normal human.
Now, admittedly, I frankly think a lot of this is due to plot armour, rather than power armour. And maybe this perception is the fault of my own, since by the time I started getting into 40k, Ward had already written two Space Marine codices.
3. Some hard facts and numbers would be nice, yes.
4. Perhaps, but it seems a stretch to me, honestly. But it says their armour "weathered the storm of barrage bombs," which is a bit too specific IMHO for much of an alternate interpretation.
5. Of course there is a chance, power armour is not infallible, it has structural weaknesses. And one guardsman shooting ten times alone isn't likely to live very long, they make a fairly distinguishable target, and every other faction's standard weapon renders their armour useless. For one guardsman to kill a marine, unless he is absurdly lucky or unusually badass, the MArine would have to literally let the guardsman shoot at him for the marine to die.
Although honestly, at this point... I'm not sure what we are arguing about...? You say Lasguns have a small chance to drop a marine, I agree. So if we both agree, I'm not sure where the debate is.
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Melissia wrote:If they're unable to penetrate power armor, they're weak as an orbital bombardment tool.
Pathetically weak. You could protect yourself from that kind of bomb just by stepping inside most Imperial buildings, nevermind military vehicles or bunkers. Or a cave.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, repeating yourself over and over again doesn't actually make your claim true.
Barrage Bombs are also used to down the shields of a starship, and for use in damaging starships in general.
Void__Dragon wrote:For instance, the Wraithlord is physically stronger and tougher than the Avatar of Khaine. Yet, in the Tyranid codex, the Hive Tyrant that effortlessly shrugged off Wraithlord attacks and casually tore them to pieces, chose to avoid fighting the Avatar of Khaine, because it apparently would have lost.
Hmm, I see. Perhaps (excuse mode on ) this could be explained by said Tyrant just being convinced he should avoid a fight, even if he would have an advantage. It's kind of the opposite situation to weaker characters winning over stronger ones by sheer fortune and dedication, such as Saint Praxedes bashing in the head of a Hive Tyrant with her power maul. This would also explain the Tyrant-vs-Wraithlord situation. Battles are always very circumstancial - sufficiently so that stats could almost never guarantee an outcome, just a likely result. Naturally, the exceptions from these results are the ones who are considered to be even more awesome for the victorious "underdog", which is why they often find their way into Codex stories.
But, that's just to elucidate on my position. I know that I cannot offer much in terms of hard facts on this. As you may have guessed, I do like details and a certain predictability, hence my motif.
Void__Dragon wrote:In the codex fluff, single marines can hold off an invasion of Orks (Numbering millions) for days apparently.
That sounds ... odd. A single Marine would run out of ammunition in the first wave of attack, and then quickly get overpowered in close combat - even if it takes 10 Orks to topple and pin him to the ground. I'm sure there's a reason for why Rogal Dorn likened 100 Marines to "just" 1000 normal troops, and not more. If a single Marine would be capable of holding off such a vast invasion force, the Imperium wouldn't be in the trouble it is now.
Isn't it more likely that there were other parties active in the background? Any place that gets invaded surely has at least a PDF presence, if not a couple Imperial Guard regiments, both coming with turret emplacements, artillery, air support and vehicles.
It's like that one story about the Order of the Sacred Rose liberating a hundred worlds with just 1.000 Battle Sisters - the material doesn't mention anyone else helping them, but I am quite convinced that they did not do this alone but rather had at least a large number of Frateris Militia joining this War of Faith, and likely local rebels rising up against the tyrant as well. Well, either that, or those hundred worlds were very, very scarcely populated...
You have a good point in mentioning Draigo, though, that's something not even I can find an excuse for. You're quite correct in that it doesn't take BL to overhype, for everytime I take a look at my 2E SoB Codex there is one story about the Space Wolves that is just really, really far out... But yeah, plot armour, as you say.
Void__Dragon wrote:Although honestly, at this point... I'm not sure what we are arguing about...? You say Lasguns have a small chance to drop a marine, I agree. So if we both agree, I'm not sure where the debate is.
True, I guess we're pretty much on the same boat here. Thanks for the fun exchange.
coolyo294 wrote:I think the Marine that held off the thousands of Orks was Calgar and his twin Pimp fists.
This just created a very comic-like animation in my head with Calgar on one side and Ork after Ork coming from the other, then Calgar just going *POM* *POW* *BAM*, sending them flying.
Given the endurance a marine has, and assuming that Calgar was holding a narrow approach so only a few orks could get to him at a time, it wouldn't be beyond belief that a single marine could hold off many thouands of enemies.
There are well documented cases of small bands of as few as a dozen men holding off armies numbering in the thousands when fortified in a good position. I do think it was a castle in Israel that about a dozen crusaders held off a force of Saracens for over 6 months before reinforcements came and broke the seige and took not a single casuality.
Lynata wrote:Hmm, I see. Perhaps (excuse mode on ) this could be explained by said Tyrant just being convinced he should avoid a fight, even if he would have an advantage. It's kind of the opposite situation to weaker characters winning over stronger ones by sheer fortune and dedication, such as Saint Praxedes bashing in the head of a Hive Tyrant with her power maul. This would also explain the Tyrant-vs-Wraithlord situation. Battles are always very circumstancial - sufficiently so that stats could almost never guarantee an outcome, just a likely result. Naturally, the exceptions from these results are the ones who are considered to be even more awesome for the victorious "underdog", which is why they often find their way into Codex stories.
But, that's just to elucidate on my position. I know that I cannot offer much in terms of hard facts on this. As you may have guessed, I do like details and a certain predictability, hence my motif.
That's the thing: The Avatar was dealt with by sending like two dozen Carnifexes at it until he was no longer a problem. The Avatar killed a sizeable portion of those Carnifexes. Something that in-game is highly unlikely bordering on impossible to happen. Oh, and do note, I didn't say the Tyrant killed "a" Wraithlord. It killed multiple Wraithlords and Wraithguard, the same beings which before meeting said Hive Tyrant were the main reason Iyanden had held so long, Wraithlords in particular being mentioned to be grappling with Carnifexes.
Lynata wrote:That sounds ... odd. A single Marine would run out of ammunition in the first wave of attack, and then quickly get overpowered in close combat - even if it takes 10 Orks to topple and pin him to the ground. I'm sure there's a reason for why Rogal Dorn likened 100 Marines to "just" 1000 normal troops, and not more. If a single Marine would be capable of holding off such a vast invasion force, the Imperium wouldn't be in the trouble it is now.
Isn't it more likely that there were other parties active in the background? Any place that gets invaded surely has at least a PDF presence, if not a couple Imperial Guard regiments, both coming with turret emplacements, artillery, air support and vehicles.
It's like that one story about the Order of the Sacred Rose liberating a hundred worlds with just 1.000 Battle Sisters - the material doesn't mention anyone else helping them, but I am quite convinced that they did not do this alone but rather had at least a large number of Frateris Militia joining this War of Faith, and likely local rebels rising up against the tyrant as well. Well, either that, or those hundred worlds were very, very scarcely populated...
You have a good point in mentioning Draigo, though, that's something not even I can find an excuse for. You're quite correct in that it doesn't take BL to overhype, for everytime I take a look at my 2E SoB Codex there is one story about the Space Wolves that is just really, really far out... But yeah, plot armour, as you say.
Well, to be fair, it was Marneus Calgar, surely being our Spiritual Liege accounts for something. And to be fair, Dorn's quote is kinda, well, hyperbolic, I doubt it is meant to be an exact representation of a Space Marine's prowess. And no, I don't think it was said that other parties were active in the background, not that I can recall anyway. Just Calgar. And Calgar believes such things like artillery and air support are for pussies. Actually, IIRC, there is a Black Templar hero who did similar. So has Mephiston, but Mephiston is blatantly exceptional for a Marine, he's ripped Carnifexes to pieces with his bare hands.
Well, that is because there is no excuse for Draigo. A Primarch would be incapable of doing the things he's done. Out of curiosity, what was the Space Wolf story in the 2e SoB codex about? As a professional hater, am always looking for reasons to validate my dislike of the Space Wolves.
Lynata wrote:True, I guess we're pretty much on the same boat here. Thanks for the fun exchange.
No problem.
Melissia wrote:Then they can slaughter Marines in power armor with ease.
Power armor is not more protective than an Imperial Navy warship's outer plates.
Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.
Ward has written every Space Marine codex in 5th edition, for good or ill.
What he writes basically defines the Space Marines in current 40k.
I might be willing to give what you were saying consideration, were your argument not "No u." Seriously, tell me what you are basing your argument on.
It didn't say the Marines were taking direct hits, and indeed, barrage bombs do not work like that.
GamzaTheChaos wrote:LOL at people unable to take images of dead people. they are disturbing but come on now. no need to cry. the people of this world are too soft. everything offends everyone lololololo.
I can take quite a lot of things. That doesn't mean that I want some of those things to intrude on my hobby time, which is supposed to be relaxing and fun.
I would also remind everyone that Dakka is a family-friendly site. Kids don't need to be seeing that sort of stuff.
Belexar wrote:I'm sure all of us here know the lasgun. The most common weapon in the imperium, it's carried by most guardsmen and it's favored even by the most eperienced veterans. It fires beams of red las in semi-auto or full-auto. It's accurate, light, cheap, easily manufactured and it has the great bennefit of it's power cells being capable of charging with sunlight.
Even so, it hasn't been treate with the respect such a powerful weapon deserves. People have reffered to them as "flashlights" and considere using themm as laser-rights for bolters of more powerful weapons. However, I'd like you to compare it with another weapon from the Imperial arsenal that even we are quite familiar with: the shotgun. They both have a very similar profile, except fpr the longer range of the former and the assault capability of the later.
Now, basing on pictures and assumptions, I cantell that the weapon some veterans ue are quite similar with our day's assault shotguns. Have you seen tho guns? Have you seen what they can do? I will show you.
WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGES: - Removed by insaniak. Completely unnecessary and not appropriate to the forum.
I hope that was a good example of the power that a shotgun holds. Now, that's a 12 gauge shotgun. Imagine all that power, condensed into a single beam of las. As an ork would say: "Dead killy." Suddenly, they don't look like flashlights at all, do they?
Well I saw the images before they were removed and I would say that you have never ever really seen what a shot gun can do at close range. It can chop limbs, slipt your head in two after a point blank shot, make huge holes in your body. Also the effect of the shot gun depends on the range it is being fired from, the ammunition that is being used and ofc what kind of shot gun are you firing.
Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, and do note, I didn't say the Tyrant killed "a" Wraithlord. It killed multiple Wraithlords and Wraithguard, the same beings which before meeting said Hive Tyrant were the main reason Iyanden had held so long, Wraithlords in particular being mentioned to be grappling with Carnifexes.
That explains it! The Avatar was unique, but there were lots of Wraithlords - so naturally a clever Hive Tyrant would think that the Avatar must be more dangerous!
...
Void__Dragon wrote:Out of curiosity, what was the Space Wolf story in the 2e SoB codex about? As a professional hater, am always looking for reasons to validate my dislike of the Space Wolves.
Oh, just a small bit about the so-called Plague of Unbelief, with a renegade Cardinal basically bringing the entire Segmentum Pacificus under his reign until he runs into Fenris, which is defended by a small reserve garrison of Wolves that manage to hold off millions upon millions of Guardsmen, with the Imperial Navy demonstrating supreme incompetence as they manage to get dozens of landers lost in bad weather. In return, the SW ships - which are canonically not supposed to outgun Navy vessels in a one-on-one - manage to destroy two warships before retreating with a bit of hull paint lost. This goes on for three years, involving constant orbital bombardment and artillery strikes at the Fang, until the rest of the Chapter that has been away on some crusade finally goes home to find the Segmentum Pacificus Navy blockading their system. Fortunately, the Space Wolves have an entire fleet of Battle Barges, so they send the Navy running.
So, basically, Space Wolves > Segmentum Pacificus.
You can actually read the entire abomination on Lexicanum here, if you're interested. Having this fanfiction-grade crap take up 4 valuable pages of my SoB Codex almost feels like an insult.
This was why I (somewhat sarcastically) nominated the Fang for being the best fortress of the Imperium in that other thread, by the way.
Lynata wrote:That explains it! The Avatar was unique, but there were lots of Wraithlords - so naturally a clever Hive Tyrant would think that the Avatar must be more dangerous!
...
That doesn't explain how the Avatar crushed multiple Carnifexes before falling though. D:
I guess a string of good rolls makes it possible though.
Lynata wrote:Oh, just a small bit about the so-called Plague of Unbelief, with a renegade Cardinal basically bringing the entire Segmentum Pacificus under his reign until he runs into Fenris, which is defended by a small reserve garrison of Wolves that manage to hold off millions upon millions of Guardsmen, with the Imperial Navy demonstrating supreme incompetence as they manage to get dozens of landers lost in bad weather. In return, the SW ships - which are canonically not supposed to outgun Navy vessels in a one-on-one - manage to destroy two warships before retreating with a bit of hull paint lost. This goes on for three years, involving constant orbital bombardment and artillery strikes at the Fang, until the rest of the Chapter that has been away on some crusade finally goes home to find the Segmentum Pacificus Navy blockading their system. Fortunately, the Space Wolves have an entire fleet of Battle Barges, so they send the Navy running.
So, basically, Space Wolves > Segmentum Pacificus.
You can actually read the entire abomination on Lexicanum here, if you're interested. Having this fanfiction-grade crap take up 4 valuable pages of my SoB Codex almost feels like an insult.
This was why I (somewhat sarcastically) nominated the Fang for being the best fortress of the Imperium in that other thread, by the way.
Oh, so standard Space Wolf ability to special snowflake their way through any situation? To be fair, the Fang is apparently really well-fortified, but an empire consisting of 50+ planets (Seriously, that's over half the size of the entire Tau Empire) being unable to overcome less than the full strength of the Wolves is kinda stupid.
Yeah, the Space Wolf codex is similar in that regard, the Space Wolves are pretty big Mary Sue special snowflakes who have plot armour that would make the Ultramarines blush at times.
I don't think people realise that the ONLY planet more fortified then the Fang is Terra itself.
the Fang is protected by Voids that would make an Emperor Battleship feel insecure. the Power Generators are huge and can keep the Voids from collapsing against any bombardment.
then, Bad weather. Fenris has horrific winter storms that are dangerous for even a Thunderhawk. Imperial Landers even more so.
and once you do land troops, what are you going to do? the Fang is a mountain with a few fortified openings. nothing to bombard unless you don't want to gain entrance. then its a maze of passages that the Wolves know quite well, a single space wolf could ambush a fire team in a confined space and totally destroy them in the space of a couple seconds(bolter on full auto or just rolling there with a chainsword) then the space wolf would vanish from whence he came.
Nah, I could buy that the Fang is the second-best fortress in the Imperium (though that makes the Cadians look slightly lazy for not putting enough work into building something similar) - but no fortress should be impenetrable.
There's just too much plot armour in that story, sorry. From a dozen Space Wolf ships spanking the butts of the entire Segmentum Pacificus Navy whilst themselves only getting a couple scratches to three years(!) of ground-shaking bombardment apparently having zero effect on the Fang itself. Also, I do think Dreadnoughts don't just "smash" into the midst of marching columns unless they're snowboarding down the hill. Furthermore, I thought Battle Barges were originally supposed to be rare. And one should assume that at least one ship of the entire Navy could have just exterminatussed the damn planet if they don't make any progress after all that time.
If all that is fine with you, cool, but this combination of "convenient outcomes" is just way too much for my personal sense of realism*.
(*: insofar something like that could be applied to a sci-fi setting that actually has some rules regarding this stuff)
Melissia wrote:Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.
So what are you basing your argument on?
A desire for consistency.
Marine power armor is not more durable, nor does it provide more protection than, the outer shell of an Imperial Navy warship-- nor its void shield. A LASGUN can penetrate power armor. It takes serious firepower to penetrate warship armor-- at LEAST a meltagun or simialr things.
people have been saying that a lasgun wound and a shotgun wound would have nothing in common. I disagre. The Lasbolt would super heat the tissue which would create steam within the affected body part. steam is much higher in volume than a comparable mass of liquid. This would result in a violent explosion in the tissue which would; i imagine result in some pretty severe trauma.
The one thing with I have about Lasguns is the power.
If they can charge by solar power, that's limited by the amount of light hitting the carging panel.
Surely a single shot of laser that can cut through metal would use the same amount of power as a full day's light. Drained in one shot.
Power out can't be greater than power in.
The problem with 40k is that a lasgun, much like an imperial guard soldier, both have a strength of three.
To say that any ranged weapon is equal to the force one guardsman can put out is laughable at best.
Add into the fact that orks, who are supposed to be bigger and tougher than humans, also have a strength of three and you see where the flaws of the statline Str Vs Tough to wound system are.
Melissia wrote:Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.
So what are you basing your argument on?
A desire for consistency.
That doesn't make sense.
The background is the background, and if it says that Power Armor can withstand an orbital bombardment I'm afraid that Power Armor can, indeed, withstand an orbital bombardment.
Power Armor is more durable than vehicles in many cases, even on the table top. An AP4 Manticore shot will bounce off of Power Armor 66% of the time. So in this instance the armor is stronger than a Land Raider's hull.
Melissia wrote:Are you going to start taking the position that tabletop stats are a direct representation of the lore now?
Please say you are, MR, because I do need a good laugh
No, they aren't a direct representation. The tabletop stats are actually toned down quite a bit. That's why Power Armor can withstand Orbital Barrages in the fluff, and only Land Raider killing blasts on the table top.
Though this conversation is pointless if the only standard for discussion is the "Fluff as Melissia Thinks it Should Have Been Written."
Monster Rain wrote:That's why Power Armor can withstand Orbital Barrages in the fluff
Except it can't.
Nuclear weapons are less powerful than orbital bombardments (The Imperium doesn't like using them because they're inefficient and dirty up planets, they have cleaner bombs that are more powerful than nukes), and yet said nuclear weapons are capable of vaporizing artificier armor.
Skinnereal wrote:The one thing with I have about Lasguns is the power.
If they can charge by solar power, that's limited by the amount of light hitting the carging panel.
Surely a single shot of laser that can cut through metal would use the same amount of power as a full day's light. Drained in one shot.
Power out can't be greater than power in.
Solar power is just one of the ways to recharge las cells, and pretty much a minor one at that. The main way it to plug them into charging stations, hooked up to a power network. That gives plenty of charge. Other methods are just for extreme situations, like having to recharge away from base by placing them in a fire.
Monster Rain wrote:That's why Power Armor can withstand Orbital Barrages in the fluff
Except it can't.
Your cognitive dissonance is admirable.
There's already a quote in this very thread of fluff where that very thing happens. I'd repost it, but you know that it's there. You responded to it. You're arguing for the sake of arguing now, so I'll leave you to it.
Power armor cant survive orbital strikes/nukes etc.
Only way marines etc could survive would be by been in a location where the damage could be absorbed, for example inside a bunker, or a city ruins.
Power armour would augment the survival chance of a marine. its not god armour.
read the horus heresy book where istvaan 3? gets bombed. only the marines in shelters survive.
Monster Rain wrote:That's why Power Armor can withstand Orbital Barrages in the fluff
Except it can't.
Nuclear weapons are less powerful than orbital bombardments (The Imperium doesn't like using them because they're inefficient and dirty up planets, they have cleaner bombs that are more powerful than nukes), and yet said nuclear weapons are capable of vaporizing artificier armor.
Orbital barrages is pretty vague as the Imperium has a myriad of weapons capable of bombarding a planet.
Barrage Bombs, as mentioned, are a Torpedo payload specifically designed for planetary bombardment. their only stat line is Ap4. so, as the fluff clearly stated this is what was being dropped on the GKs, the marines were perfectly capable of surviving.
a Lance Strike wouldn't be survivable as that is as a ship based Lance weapon.
a melta torpedo would also be impossable to survive a direct hit from.
its all relative to the weapon being used in the orbital bombardment weather a marine's PA can take it.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:read the horus heresy book where istvaan 3? gets bombed. only the marines in shelters survive.
That was due to the Life-Eater virus, though, which is completely different (it can only be survived by living organisms by avoiding contact with it, hence the bunkers being airtight and saving them simply by providing a barrier). It's never stated how powerful the firestorm afterwards would have been.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:read the horus heresy book where istvaan 3? gets bombed. only the marines in shelters survive.
That was due to the Life-Eater virus, though, which is completely different (it can only be survived by living organisms by avoiding contact with it, hence the bunkers being airtight and saving them simply by providing a barrier). It's never stated how powerful the firestorm afterwards would have been.
this is a quote from galaxy in flames
Those Astartes who had survived the viral attack found themselves consumed in flames as they desperately sought to find cover once more. But against this firestorm there could be no cover for those who had dared to brave the elements
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