Yeah, but you have to admit they are the bravest when it comes to fighting the things in the 40k universe, heck I doubt many people today could do what the armies of Imperium does.
coolyo294 wrote:Dark Eldar. Space Marines. Eldar. Orks. Tyranids. Chaos Space Marines. Demons.
Space Marine aldo Super-Human are still Humans. And they fight for Humanity not themselves.
Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.
Tyranids, Orks are the only one who can effecievly fight Humanity. Still, Human military tactics and strategies defeat them countless times. Because of all those races - none of them exceed at warfare, they just fight - without reason, logic, strategy or ordinance.
So, you are basicly saying that there races ( Chaos Space Marines are Humans ) are better fighters than a Marine and much brave then Guardsman or fateful then Sister?
And that they are specialist in warfare more then Humans?
Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.
They can't breed to produce fertile offspring. Since they aren't a species they aren't humans. They aren't even superhumans. They're a genetic experiment that starts from a human base.
Anyway, the real thing is that humans are winning because they have numbers (until some more hive fleets show up) and they're mostly defending.
Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.
Tyranids hunt, they don't wage wars (imagine fighting a pride of lions that are trying to eat you).
Orks wage waaaaaaaghs, not wars.
Point is, it's all war no matter how you look at it as far as we're concerned. Looting and raiding is a war tactic, not just straight on WWI style trench warfare.
They have dedicated moral officers, given the powers to execute to inspire bravery. Uncountable numbers flee battles or turn themselves over to Chaos in fear, and many do it simply for their own survival. Are they the bravest? Not so sure about that. Tau dont exactly have a record of running away in panic, or giving themselves up, and I'm sure there are thousands of other sapient species that fight the innumerable horrors without bending.
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Ail-Shan wrote:
Space Marines are superHUMANS's
They can't breed to produce fertile offspring. Since they aren't a species they aren't humans. They aren't even superhumans. They're a genetic experiment that starts from a human base.
Anyway, the real thing is that humans are winning because they have numbers (until some more hive fleets show up) and they're mostly defending.
They're humans that have had their fertility taken away due to extensive augmentation. No infertile creature has been created as there has been no reproductive cycle to create them, outside of their organs, which are merely implants. A Space Marine is simply a heavily augmented human.
They're humans that have had their fertility taken away due to extensive augmentation
I thought they went under extensive genetic engineering as well, basically turning them into something new. If so, a better analogy would probably be a comparison between a dog and a wolf. They're both very similar, but they are distinctly different and are different sub-species. So different sub-species then, still branching out beyond direct humanity.
If not, I should go read more backstory.
No infertile creature has been created as there has been no reproductive cycle to create them
Aren't ligers infertile yet able to be born naturally? Same with mules.
And numbers are the Orkz advantage, as well as their stupid fast reproductive cycle, ability to manufacture weapons from scrap, and their durability and strength. Tyranids obvious advantages are numbers and their ability to adapt to near any threat. Humans have advantages in their easily manufactured technology and their numbers, which adds weight of fire.
I think it all depends on the individual, not the whole.
But if I had to choose, it would be Necrons.
They have the most experience in battle (1.000.000+ years)
The most advanced & the most devastating technology (Fluff wise, a Gauss Flayer can punch through a Land Raider)
They do not feel fear (or any other emotion whatsoever)
They are practically immortal & there is more of them then you think.
So yeah, Necrons are the best warriors in the 41st Millennium. The only way to get rid of them is to bomb their Tomb Worlds (preferably with Exterminatus & that is the Imperiums final resort, so what does that say about Crons?).
Finest no. Bravest except for the marines, the sisters and some IG regiments no. About the capability in war... To measure that you have to take in consideration the available resources(which include men power, gear/technology, supplies etc... ), kill - death ratio(which is affected by the following factors - the use of terrain, tactis, morale,training,experience etc...). I thought of writing about each army in 40k but it is going to take me a lot of time and I don't want to do that right now.
They're humans that have had their fertility taken away due to extensive augmentation
I thought they went under extensive genetic engineering as well, basically turning them into something new. If so, a better analogy would probably be a comparison between a dog and a wolf. They're both very similar, but they are distinctly different and are different sub-species. So different sub-species then, still branching out beyond direct humanity.
If not, I should go read more backstory.
I consider the Astartes Organs and the human to be separate. The human is simply implanted with the organs to "upgrade" him. Genetic engineering is referenced in some sources, and not in others, but it wouldn't have any effect on them. No reproductive cycle has been carried out to transform this human into an Astartes. There is no gestation cycle, there are no parents, and no combining of genetic information to create an entirely new being.
No infertile creature has been created as there has been no reproductive cycle to create them
Aren't ligers infertile yet able to be born naturally? Same with mules.
I meant that in the context of the Space Marine. There has been no reproductive cycle to create a new organism.
Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.
Eldar don't loot and raid.They just don't rage war in the simplistic one-minded fashion of the humans.
I would prolly say Tau were higher than Humans in Bravery.
Before Cao starts on "They haven't fought anything".
they HAVE fought Daemons (they think They killed Tzeentch)
They HAVE fought Tyranids (And won! read Shadowsun's Bio)
They HAVE fought Orkz (And won! Once again, see our good Friend O'Shassera's Bio. Page 46 of the Tau Empire Codex)
They HAVE fought Necrons (Alongside Ultramarines)
The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.
And on the most skilled: Eldar say hi!
IMO, for the Most brave, I'd prolly say Eldar on Both accounts, but Humans aren't high up there. Remember, for all 1,000,000 Space marines and all however many Sisters of Battle, there are trillions of Guardsmen. The ratio of Space marines to Guardsman is prolly 1:1,000,000 a tleast
Phantom wrote:Yeah, but you have to admit they are the bravest when it comes to fighting the things in the 40k universe,
Of course they are. The commissars are just for show.
Speaking of which, I wonder...
If you have a powerblob made from 3 squads, each with a commissar included, do you remove three sergeants - one for each commissar - or just one, when you start to run away?
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would prolly say Tau were higher than Humans in Bravery.
Before Cao starts on "They haven't fought anything".
they HAVE fought Daemons (they think They killed Tzeentch) That game was realistic as in DoW my Tau Fire Warrior killed Eldar Avatar in cc.... They HAVE fought Tyranids (And won! read Shadowsun's Bio) One word: Macragge, one more: Tarsis Ultra They HAVE fought Orkz (And won! Once again, see our good Friend O'Shassera's Bio. Page 46 of the Tau Empire Codex) One word again: Armageddon They HAVE fought Necrons (Alongside Ultramarines) Damnos, nuff said... And Tau retreated from that planet...
The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave. Kronus, Kaurava, Nimbosa, Zeist...
And on the most skilled: Eldar say hi! Grey Knights say: hi!
IMO, for the Most brave, I'd prolly say Eldar on Both accounts Hit and run is not brave at all. Only brave Eldar are Ilyden , but Humans aren't high up there. Remember, for all 1,000,000 Space marines and all however many Sisters of Battle, there are trillions of Guardsmen. The ratio of Space marines to Guardsman is prolly 1:1,000,000 at least Yeah, ordinary guys facing all that galaxy can throw at them sound so easy to handle...
Phantom wrote:Yeah, but you have to admit they are the bravest when it comes to fighting the things in the 40k universe, heck I doubt many people today could do what the armies of Imperium does.
Debatable. Are we discussing the average human? Or the armies?
I think that with the proper equipment, a modern day soldier wouldn't feel out of place on a 40k battlefied, fighting alongside the IG. War is War. Always has been always will be. The means, equipment and enemies will change, but the bravery, and mental fortitude neccesary to go into combat will never change.
Now if we are comparing an average, untrained, unequipped human against a comparable xeno, then the aliens will win every time (except maybe tau). As human, we have relatively slow reflexes, our muscles are (naturally) rather undense (though this can change with training), our skeletons are thin and unprotective, and we have few if any redundancies in physiology. This is all of course in relation to animals on terra.
Debatable. Are we discussing the average human? Or the armies?
I think that with the proper equipment, a modern day soldier wouldn't feel out of place on a 40k battlefied, fighting alongside the IG. War is War. Always has been always will be. The means, equipment and enemies will change, but the bravery, and mental fortitude neccesary to go into combat will never change.
Now if we are comparing an average, untrained, unequipped human against a comparable xeno, then the aliens will win every time (except maybe tau). As human, we have relatively slow reflexes, our muscles are (naturally) rather undense (though this can change with training), our skeletons are thin and unprotective, and we have few if any redundancies in physiology. This is all of course in relation to animals on terra.
We are counting Humanity as a whole. From the ordinary civilian to the might Astartes.
Humans are average to ok at most things. IOM Fanboys tend to flock to threads like this
SM are not humans, but i'll include them as such to prevent the fanboys nerdraging. They even tend to refer to humans as 'you humans...' not 'we humans'
There are a couple of misunderstandings about the setting in this thread.
Firstly- humans are NOT winning. They are losing. Check out the Manin rulebook's fluff section
Humanity has massive numbers in total, but so do other races. Numerically orks easily outnumber humanity, nids might, depending on who you read.
Humanity has big big guns, but so do other races
Bravest? Not really. They have people with bolt pistols ready to shoot the first guy who flees, which tends to reinforce the spine If you read braver as not scared the orks, necrons, daemons etc have you beat, and if you put it as 'scared out their wits but still fighting' the grots, tau or eldar guardians likely take it.
Finest warriors- Define finest If you mean prettiest and most bling laden you might have a point in BA, but of you mean best there are better basic warriors per race out there than a Guardsman. SM aren't the basic warrior of humanity, but an elite and supposedly rare force. Other races have elites that are better than SM in general.
Most capable- Individually, or en mass? Nids and Daemons have mass produced badasses (i'm ignoring unique individuals here) that make the best human elite look rather sad by comparison one on one, and with no shortage of supply or need to train them.
Racially the Orks are far more capable, as they can successfully prosecute a full-scale war with the contents of Crazy Bob's Junkyard and U Pull It
Iur_tae_mont wrote: The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.
How about Kronus & Kaurava when the Ethereals got killed & the Tau had to flee?
My statement remains, Necrons are the best warriors in the 41st Millennium. (of course, they are are second to the mighty Ork WAAAGH! )
There are a couple of misunderstandings about the setting in this thread.
Firstly- humans are NOT winning. They are losing. Check out the Main rulebook's fluff section
You missed page 116?
See thats the future.
Humans are the spocks and kirks of enterprise. Xenos are the redshirts...and we know their fate, don't we?
Eldar are the bravest, no contest. Most sentient beings fear death but only the Eldar have to fear their afterlife. A lost battle will, in the very best case, mean the eternal twilight existence in the infinity circuits.
If the unfortunate Eldar's soulstone gets somehow destroyed, which is possible after a defeat, then Slaanesh will torture his still self aware soul for all eternity.
To overcome not only the fear of death but also the fear for your very soul requires some serious guts.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would prolly say Tau were higher than Humans in Bravery.
Before Cao starts on "They haven't fought anything".
they HAVE fought Daemons (they think They killed Tzeentch)
They HAVE fought Tyranids (And won! read Shadowsun's Bio)
They HAVE fought Orkz (And won! Once again, see our good Friend O'Shassera's Bio. Page 46 of the Tau Empire Codex)
They HAVE fought Necrons (Alongside Ultramarines)
The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.
And on the most skilled: Eldar say hi!
IMO, for the Most brave, I'd prolly say Eldar on Both accounts, but Humans aren't high up there. Remember, for all 1,000,000 Space marines and all however many Sisters of Battle, there are trillions of Guardsmen. The ratio of Space marines to Guardsman is prolly 1:1,000,000 a tleast
When did they fight necros with SMs ?
Humans can be quite brave at times. Going to battle in the worst armor with the worst weapons, that has got to take some balls. That or they don't realize what they are getting into.
KingDeath wrote:Eldar are the bravest, no contest. Most sentient beings fear death but only the Eldar have to fear their afterlife. A lost battle will, in the very best case, mean the eternal twilight existence in the infinity circuits.
If the unfortunate Eldar's soulstone gets somehow destroyed, which is possible after a defeat, then Slaanesh will torture his still self aware soul for all eternity.
To overcome not only the fear of death but also the fear for your very soul requires some serious guts.
As much as I love the IOM this point is a really good one. Space Marines are the best warriors, but kind of cheat with the designed for war. Eldar however, when they choose a warrior path are risking having their soul tortured and devoured by Slaanesh. Most Eldar who choose this a warrior path have to conquer his fear and anger or get stuck in that aspect. That takes a lot of bravery.
Edit: Their emotions are also 100x as sensitive as a humans making it even harder to control.
There are a couple of misunderstandings about the setting in this thread.
Firstly- humans are NOT winning. They are losing. Check out the Main rulebook's fluff section
You missed page 116?
No, i read that. You missed pages 118 onwards?
There may be a new dawn coming etc etc, but right now they are losing
See thats the future.
Humans are the spocks and kirks of enterprise. Xenos are the redshirts...and we know their fate, don't we?
Yup. They become the Command staff in Next Generation, and rarely die. They have people for that
First of all, Space Marines are certainly not humans. Not anymore. They are an entirely different species, created with humanity as the starting point.
Secondly, I would say that humans are neither the most capable or most brave race in 40k. Sure, it takes some serious cajones for a guardsman to stand his ground in front of a wave of charging nids, but he's most likely got something just as scary behind him in the form of a commisar's pistol. Plus, a basic human civilian is pretty pathetic when compared to the basic citizen equivalent of other races, except Tau and Grots.
Civvy vs civvy:
Eldar and Dark Eldar would kick a human's face in. They have a more developed muscle structure, are faster and more agile, and on the whole smarter.
Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and Chaos don't really have civilians, so that's kind of a moot point.
I already said a human would probably beat a Tau.
In terms of militaries and fighting forces, all humanity really has going for it is numbers and cheap equipment (I'm only really talking about the Guard here because I don't consider Marines human). Orks, Deamons, and Nids outnumber and generally outfight humans, while Eldar and Dark Eldar are more mobile and better equipped. Tau are also better equipped. Necrons are just in a league of their own, fluffwise, as their technology, numbers (most are still sleeping, but still) and general fearlessness are unmatched.
And Brother Coa, no offense but why do you always start these threads and then respond so vehemently when people disagree with you and present opposing points? I really think you need to mellow out a little.
Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?
This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?
Please stop.
Humanity excells due to numbers (Yes, Orks outnumber them, but Orks are not a UNIFIED force, the Imperium for the most part is, Tyranids are relatively unknown in this regard), and easily manufactured, fairly efficient technology.
Orks are probably better at warfare, indeed, fighting is their only purpose, they have an instinctual grasp for all aspects of warfare.
nomotog wrote: When did they fight necros with SMs ?
"At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Chapter in 936.M41. However, the world proved to be cursed when their fighting awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this threat, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through an Exterminatus."
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Ascalam wrote:He likes the sound of Humanity Fanboys chanting in chorus
Brother Coa wrote:"At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Chapter in 936.M41. However, the world proved to be cursed when their fighting awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this threat, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through an Exterminatus."
And you hate Humans?
Indeed. The Tau also didn't flee the battle like you said they did before.
The Malbede bit is correct. The IOM graciously 'allowed' the tau to evacuate before exterminatus was used.
I don't hate humans. I don't think they are the best though, just for being humans
You have to admit that you are something of an IOM fanatic though, and not prone to admitting that they aren't automatically the victors in every conflict.
The IOM wins some, and loses more.
Re the Starchild prophecy:
Are we assuming that any written prophecy in 40K is true?
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Melissia wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:There are many races that are much better at fighting then Humans.
Brother Coa wrote:"At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Chapter in 936.M41. However, the world proved to be cursed when their fighting awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this threat, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through an Exterminatus."
And you hate Humans?
Indeed. The Tau also didn't flee the battle like you said they did before.
You're hilarious.
They flee when the Ultramarines give them the green light, they even didn't stay to see the Exterminatus
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Ascalam wrote:The Malbede bit is correct. The IOM graciously 'allowed' the tau to evacuate before exterminatus was used.
I don't hate humans. Yeah right I don't think they are the best though, just for being humans I didn't also say they are the best, but they can kick a lot of ass and win unvinable battles...
You have to admit that you are something of an IOM fanatic though, and not prone to admitting that they aren't automatically the victors in every conflict.
The IOM wins some, and loses more.
Me fanatic? Why I am just saying "God Emperor" when something happened and people say "God". And I am preaching the Imperial Creed to little kids - what is wrong with that? Oh, and I break the nationalist fight, between 2 countries, with more than 100 people on Internet saying that "We are all brothers and that the Emperor protect us." - I receive 50+ friend request then
They don't flee. They evacuate the planet (the mariens claim it's because they said they could, but as the fluff is written from the IOM's perspective...
Heh - sounds fanatic to me
The refusal to admit that the IOM can lose, and that it's doomed despite fluff clearly saying so does indicate a certain fanaticism, as does the 'question' posited at the original post of this thread.
You have stated in many (many, many) other threads that you DO consider humanity to be the best.
*sidenote* I actually thing the SM are pretty cool. I've played them and collected them before. I would do the same for the Guard, if i could afford all the $60+ kits it requires. I do get a bit tired with GW's Humanity Uber Alles (sp) bias though, and with those folks who simply cannot conceive of the possibility that the IOM might ever lose, or that the SM might ever lose a battle. I've actually had opponents go into crying bawling, screaming tantrums when their Marines lost a battle, pointing at phrases from the fluff like Marneus Calgar holding off a whole Waaagh for 3 days in their codex as they scream at me, claiming that there is no way on Terra that the Emperor would let Calgar die to a single grot mob, and therefore they should have him back at full wounds before we continue our 'game'... (not kidding..had this happen before, and similar from other people who took the Marine fluff a little to much to heart )
Ascalam wrote: The refusal to admit that the IOM can lose, and that it's doomed despite fluff clearly saying so does indicate a certain fanaticism, as does the 'question' posited at the original post of this thread. I
They can lose, just look at Gryphone IV, Taros, 1'st War for Armageddon, Horus Heresy, Istvaan V, Trygon, Damnos, Democles, Medusa V, Battle for Sotha... But when they lose, they make their opponents pay for it. And we all know about your pro-Human hate that you are implementing on every thread ( hell, you probably had a great smiley when watching Humans get slaughtered in Avatar, Transformers and Battle L.A. ). And Imperium is not losing now - they started to lose territories but just "started" ( Nazi Germany started to lose WW 2 in 1942 and still they needed 3 more years to lose entirely ). So saying that they are losing is inaccurate ( they still regain most worlds they fought for ). And my question is to see people opinions, I occasionally ask when I need more then just simple "no" but I respect other opinions ( I don't approve the hate dough ).
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Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, you're the guy who says people who prefer factions other than the Imperium are human race traitors. =\
Just ask a certain one Tau fan what he told me. And not all are traitors ( this is a game after all ) but when people get to much int other faction that they start to see Humans as weaklings, forgetting that they are Human to and that is treason.
And I am not joking. Want me to put that on my signature?
Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:He likes the sound of Humanity Fanboys chanting in chorus
And you hate Humans?
Get a job in customer service then tell me you don't
The skill that humanity has over the other races is blind faith and numbers. Means there's lots of minds too busy to think about the orders passed down to them.
Abstract Catalyst wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.
Foolish human - we wage wars, simply not in the narrow, contrived meaning of the word which you use.
Extermination, not war. One doesn't wage war with insignificant lesser beings, the word is too much of a compliment for them as it implies that they are almost equal enough to be considered a slight threat.
n0t_u wrote:
The skill that humanity has over the other races is blind faith and numbers. Means there's lots of minds too busy to think about the orders passed down to them. Ever heard abot commanding officers?
Humans use lot's of armor, artillery, fortifications and ordinance to make up for lack of strength and numbers. And they use that equipment in a way to bring down lot's of enemies very effectively. They also use strategies and tactics to compensate for lack of brute strength against some hard-core enemies.
They are not weak at all...
Brother Coa wrote:Just ask a certain one Tau fan what he told me. And not all are traitors ( this is a game after all ) but when people get to much int other faction that they start to see Humans as weaklings, forgetting that they are Human to and that is treason.
And I am not joking. Want me to put that on my signature?
Humanity has to compete with lumbering green brutes that can bend reality to accomodate their insane world-view, psychic space elves who can move almost faster than a human can see, undead automotons that physically rival their best warriors wielding technology that is essentially magic to them and are incapable of dying, ravenous bugs that can cut through ceramite and use their own biology as guns, extradimensional beings formed by colossal entities that are themselves created from the emotions of the sentient races of the galaxy, and... Tau.
Compared to these (Except Tau), humans are weaklings... Individually.
Individually, a human is weak. United, humanity is strong.
Um.. starting to lose is still losing. If you are losing more territory than you are gaining then you are losing
I didn't say they've lost yet, just that they are losing, and are doomed to lose eventually.
To qualify my view on humanity- Humans are ok. Nice race, though a bit crude and too prone to messing up their environment/picking fights/doing stuff they shouldn't..
The Imperium i'm less fond of. Humanity and the Imperium are not the same thing, though most of the time they are congruent. There are non-IOM humans out there. As far as I'm concerned the best thing for Humanity would be for the Imperium to collapse, and be replaced b y a less totalitarian, venal, xenophobic and technophobic culture that would allow humanity to actually be Human
The IOM is ok at what it does. It fights the impossible fights (the losses are generally tactfully left out or reclassified as wins) and does all sorts of pointlessly heroic slaughter in all sorts of places That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace
Ascalam wrote:Um.. starting to lose is still losing. If you are losing more territory than you are gaining then you are losing
I didn't say they've lost yet, just that they are losing, and are doomed to lose eventually.
To qualify my view on humanity- Humans are ok. Nice race, though a bit crude and too prone to messing up their environment/picking fights/doing stuff they shouldn't..
The Imperium i'm less fond of. Humanity and the Imperium are not the same thing, though most of the time they are congruent. There are non-IOM humans out there. As far as I'm concerned the best thing for Humanity would be for the Imperium to collapse, and be replaced b y a less totalitarian, venal, xenophobic and technophobic culture that would allow humanity to actually be Human
The IOM is ok at what it does. It fights the impossible fights (the losses are generally tactfully left out or reclassified as wins) and does all sorts of pointlessly heroic slaughter in all sorts of places That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace
And you are forgetting the most important thing: Imperium = Humanity. I will just quote rulebook you are so found of: "Indeed, without the protection of the Imperium the Human race would fall prey to countless race attacking it." Other Human factions are either the lost colonies, Chaos or traitors. And what is the capital of the Imperium? - Earth. Human homeworld. And every Human alive has a debt to the Emperor for being alive at all ( without Emperor uniting Earth - no more Mankind ).
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Void__Dragon wrote:Humanity has to compete with lumbering green brutes that can bend reality to accomodate their insane world-view, psychic space elves who can move almost faster than a human can see, undead automotons that physically rival their best warriors wielding technology that is essentially magic to them and are incapable of dying, ravenous bugs that can cut through ceramite and use their own biology as guns, extradimensional beings formed by colossal entities that are themselves created from the emotions of the sentient races of the galaxy, and... Tau.
Compared to these (Except Tau), humans are weaklings... Individually.
Individually, a human is weak. United, humanity is strong.
n0t_u wrote:
The skill that humanity has over the other races is blind faith and numbers. Means there's lots of minds too busy to think about the orders passed down to them. Ever heard abot commanding officers?
Humans use lot's of armor, artillery, fortifications and ordinance to make up for lack of strength and numbers. And they use that equipment in a way to bring down lot's of enemies very effectively. They also use strategies and tactics to compensate for lack of brute strength against some hard-core enemies.
They are not weak at all...
Who do you think gives the orders they so blindly follow? High Lords of Terra, which must be followed without question trickling down to the commanding officers in the battlefield; grunts themselves have no say. I can't remember it exactly but there was a quote about it by an Inquisitor if I recall correctly, something about a mind full of faith leaves no room for doubt I think.
All the humans really need to make up for is strength, they have numbers and their blind faith on their side. By no means are they as efficient as some of the other races (the winner clearly being Orks, they use junk to make more junk basically), but they get the job done most of the time.
Never said they were weak, just those are their strengths and they play to them. The Guardsmen themselves are only as brave as the Commissar that leads them.
Ascalam wrote:Um.. starting to lose is still losing. If you are losing more territory than you are gaining then you are losing
I didn't say they've lost yet, just that they are losing, and are doomed to lose eventually.
To qualify my view on humanity- Humans are ok. Nice race, though a bit crude and too prone to messing up their environment/picking fights/doing stuff they shouldn't..
The Imperium i'm less fond of. Humanity and the Imperium are not the same thing, though most of the time they are congruent. There are non-IOM humans out there. As far as I'm concerned the best thing for Humanity would be for the Imperium to collapse, and be replaced b y a less totalitarian, venal, xenophobic and technophobic culture that would allow humanity to actually be Human
The IOM is ok at what it does. It fights the impossible fights (the losses are generally tactfully left out or reclassified as wins) and does all sorts of pointlessly heroic slaughter in all sorts of places That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace
And you are forgetting the most important thing: Imperium = Humanity. I will just quote rulebook you are so found of: "Indeed, without the protection of the Imperium the Human race would fall prey to countless race attacking it." Other Human factions are either the lost colonies, Chaos or traitors. And what is the capital of the Imperium? - Earth. Human homeworld. And every Human alive has a debt to the Emperor for being alive at all ( without Emperor uniting Earth - no more Mankind ).
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Void__Dragon wrote:Humanity has to compete with lumbering green brutes that can bend reality to accomodate their insane world-view, psychic space elves who can move almost faster than a human can see, undead automotons that physically rival their best warriors wielding technology that is essentially magic to them and are incapable of dying, ravenous bugs that can cut through ceramite and use their own biology as guns, extradimensional beings formed by colossal entities that are themselves created from the emotions of the sentient races of the galaxy, and... Tau.
Compared to these (Except Tau), humans are weaklings... Individually.
Individually, a human is weak. United, humanity is strong.
Agree... ( see, we are returning you slowly... )
And you are forgertting that some of the fluff sounds a lot like it was turned out from the Imperium's Departmenta Propaganda. Doesn't always make it true If all the fluff was 100% accurate there would be a lot of alternate realities out there.
Imperium does not equal Humanity. It is based on Humanity's ancestral homeworld, yes, and the vast majority of the human race are Imperial subjects, but not all. As long as a single Homo Sapiens is not under Imperial control (and there are lost human worlds out there from before the Imperium existed) the Imperium anf Humanity are not identical. I sincerely doubt that anyone from the Chaos Legions, undiscovered human worlds or human worlds that have renounced the Emperor feel that they have a debt to him.
The Emperor united earth, yes, and then put together the Imperium. BEFORE that happened humanity colonized the galaxy, during the Golden Age, and the IOM hasn't united all those worlds, has it? Who's to say there isn't another human empire out there, or dozens of them ?
You're not fond of the rulebook? Given it is the setting that we're arguing about i'd hope that you are too From the Imperial point of view humanity is doomed if not protected by the Emperor. In general this is true, as much of the Human race is in the IOM, and would fall prey to the baddies out there with it gone. In the case of those humans who don't even know it exists, have already rejected it or are under the protection of other powers/forces/races I don't think they'd suddenly become any more vulnerable than they already are to non-human aggression.
Orks. They are designed for nothing more than scrapping. That is their raison d'etre. To fight.
Bravest?
If in the context of fighting the good fight despite the fact that they can't win, against forces that consider them insignificant then humans. They have a penchant to keep fighting even beyond the limits of common sense.
It isn't being a traitor to your species to admit that other fictional species (which were thought of with the goal of being stronger or in some way better than humanity) are stronger or in some way better than humanity. It's just showing that GW's fluff writers did their job and filled the galaxy with potent threats. Are many of these threats cooler than humanity? That's a matter of opinion, but I say yes! And that's why fiction, and science fiction in particular, is so great. It allows us to think beyond just what's here on earth, because we all know that. It's gotten stale and boring from us living it. So writers make new stuff and new species that are better or more interesting. It's all just escapism, and I for one enjoy it.
MandalorynOranj wrote:It isn't being a traitor to your species to admit that other fictional species (which were thought of with the goal of being stronger or in some way better than humanity) are stronger or in some way better than humanity.
I didn't say that, I like aliens. The 40k would be quite boring without mysterious Necrons, friendly Tau or Eldar babes But when some Tau fan told me: "Humans are just rock-thrown stupid monkeys that must die for the good of the galaxy" tend to get me a little nervous...
And I said befre: Imperium can't defat all it's enemies because they are to numerous. But again, they can't defeat the Imperium because it's to powerful and they are not united themselves...
Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?
This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?
Personally I think the Eldar are the bravest. After all they are a dying race, but still spend their lives to stop incursions of chaos across the galaxy. Eventually they will be completely gone, but they still fight on.
Humans are just arrogant racists jerks who want everyone else to bow to their archaic ideas of empire and conquest. Nothing really brave about wiping clean any planet that refuses to step into line with your empire....
The finest and bravest warriors are the Chaos Space Marines many of whom have been fighting their personal wars for millennia now and live in the eye of terror, the scariest and most insane place in existence next to the immaterium itself...
Skriker
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Brother Coa wrote:[But when some Tau fan told me: "Humans are just rock-thrown stupid monkeys that must die for the good of the galaxy" tend to get me a little nervous...
What exactly is there to be nervous about?? The opponent is just roleplaying his army. More power to him. I doubt outside of the game arena he has "Down with humans!!" posters hidden under his bed or something, especially given that outside of the game arena he is also human too...
Methinks you might be a tad touchy on this subject...
The Chaos legions. The world eaters or really any legion that worships the blood god. They are insane. Then again the emperors children/noise marines enjoy pain so they enjoy battle. Then again I don't know if I would call that bravery or just insanity but im sure they are more fearless against regular space marines or IG.
Space Marines then Eldar are probably the best warriors 1 on 1 when it comes to combat.
Though Humanity is certainly the strongest power in the galaxy at least. No faction could stand alone against the combined strength of all the various forces of the Imperium. Fortunately for the enemies of humanity, the Imperium is forced to fight a war on many fronts and is burdened by bureaucracy/logistics so that would never happen.
The Space Marines are not really humans anymore. They have been improved, altered and modified beyond the standard of human species. I will quote Dawn of War II for this matter.
Spoiler:
...
Thaddeus: Victory has it's own price.
Tarkus: Speak your mind, Thaddeus
Thaddeus: With each victory, I can feel more and more of myself slipping away.
Cyrus: Continue.
Thaddeus: In battle, it used to be a great rush, a thrill! Now more and more its became...
Tarkus: Purer.
Cyrus: Simpler.
Thaddeus: Yes... Both of those. I go to a place where my body and spirit are one; a perfect weapon honed by powers far beyond me.
Tarkus: You are leaving behind the remnants of your life before the chapter found you. A great honor, but melancholy.
Cyrus: And not without costs. You are not one of them anymore.
Thaddeus: Them... Humans... Men. No... I am not quite one of them them anymore.
...
And about courage and battle prowess of the Imperium:
The Imperial Guard has this stereotypy of being an army of pansies, who the commissars drive forward. In many cases, this is true. However, they are only normal men and women. And still they fight against horrors too terrible to behold. And still they win. They are very, very brave when they march into their doom knowingly and willingly. They don't mind seeing their comrades being ripped to bloody shreds by mindless alien monsters, small microscopic metal shards, weapons that destroy very tanks, atom by atom. They do this battle after battle for even decades. And still move ever onward.
Space Marines are taught everything from close combat to heavy weapons, unlike Eldar who specialize in one of the aspects of war. They can give a good match for everything the xenos throw at them. A Space Marine can, with equal ease, fight hand to hand with an Ork boy, as he can sharpshoot an eye of a monstrous creature. They know the tactics to battle every foe, from light infantry hordes to heavy tanks. They have stood for over ten millenia, and they may not be as experienced as Chaos Space Marines, but they many times win even the forces of Chaos. They are the finest warriors of humanity, and are vulnerable to no one.
Overall, I think that humans truly are the bravest warriors in 40k. If you want to consider the Marines humans (which they are not), then they are the most capable of warriors.
It certainly helps when your race is the one writing the background, both physically and in concept (fluff is generally through the imperial perspective).
Also think of what you're arguing: The imperium has the most powerful and the bravest warriors of all, and are quite numerous. So since they have all the advantages, why are they losing?
It certainly helps when your race is the one writing the background, both physically and in concept (fluff is generally through the imperial perspective).
Also think of what you're arguing: The imperium has the most powerful and the bravest warriors of all, and are quite numerous. So since they have all the advantages, why are they losing?
The Imperium is not really losing, tbh. The whole "the Imperium is losing" concept exists because wh40k is a grimdark dystopy, it has to be dark and hopeless. The truth, according to the fluff, is different.
If you consider all the fluff, (books, videogames, the movie, etc.) the Imperium always wins. Always. Besides, I think that the word of losing means that you lose very much territory in mere days. The Imperium is able to keep most of their territory through fighting, and in the Imperium's case, losing would mean losing hundreds or thousands of planets each week.
The Imperium is weaker than it used to be, yes. The Age of Apostasy was a major setback, but I think that given time, the Imperium will recover from it. And if you consider what you said yourself, the race that writes the fluff would not want itself to be destroyed, right?
As every battle seems to be told by the IOM, and bragged up, we'll have to assume that they aren't telling anyone about the faliures beyond a terse little line once in a while, like '300 battle brothers dry-gulched by unknown eldar'
Humanity will not lose, in setting, because the timeline is static, paused at about 3 seconds to midnight. It's all over but the retcons, but they aren't ready to push 'play' yet.
That inevitable defeat is what makes the SM and IG heroic. It's much like Theoden in LOTR knowing he can't defeat the orks, but going anyway, or the 300 Spartans (and the 600 or so helots people seem to forget mentioning) at Thermopylae.
If the IOM was winning, driving back the dark on all sides, etc etc they would come across as xenophobic asshats with an attitude problem (they are anyway ) but not heroes. I like them better as heroes that genocidal murderers
coolyo294 wrote:Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.
A common mistake:
Chaos Marines from the Heresy will be very rare, and most dont live 10k years but lost most of them due to Warp time. A large chunk of the Chaos Marine are not more than the only low-quality scum that made it, but will never reach the quality of the loyal Marines.
CSM have more fear than loyal Marines because their selfish live is all they have.
Marines devoted to the Chaos gods as Sisters to the Emperor are also rare and then mad. Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines are such, but as I said mad at best. Iron Warriors, Night Lords or others try to use the Chaos gods but are not devoted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dark Scipio wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.
A common mistake:
Chaos Marines from the Heresy will be very rare, and most dont live 10k years but lost most of them due to Warp time. A large chunk of the Chaos Marine are not more than the only low-quality scum that made it, but will never reach the quality of the loyal Marines.
CSM have more fear than loyal Marines because their selfish live is all they have.
Marines devoted to the Chaos gods as Sisters to the Emperor are also rare and then mad. Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines are such, but as I said mad at best. Iron Warriors, Night Lords or others try to use the Chaos gods but are not devoted.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:The Space Marines are not really humans anymore. They have been improved, altered and modified beyond the standard of human species. I will quote Dawn of War II for this matter.
Spoiler:
...
Thaddeus: Victory has it's own price.
Tarkus: Speak your mind, Thaddeus
Thaddeus: With each victory, I can feel more and more of myself slipping away.
Cyrus: Continue.
Thaddeus: In battle, it used to be a great rush, a thrill! Now more and more its became...
Tarkus: Purer.
Cyrus: Simpler.
Thaddeus: Yes... Both of those. I go to a place where my body and spirit are one; a perfect weapon honed by powers far beyond me.
Tarkus: You are leaving behind the remnants of your life before the chapter found you. A great honor, but melancholy.
Cyrus: And not without costs. You are not one of them anymore.
Thaddeus: Them... Humans... Men. No... I am not quite one of them them anymore.
...
I didnt knew Thaddeus was an expert on this matter or decides who is human.
coolyo294 wrote:Yes. A Chaos Space Marines, (Not human, nor do they fight for humanity) is better then an Imperial Marine because of experience and the blessings of Chaos. A CSM is braver then a Guardsmen because he has no fear. And a CSM is as devoted to his Gods as much as a Sister is devoted to the Emperor.
A common mistake:
Chaos Marines from the Heresy will be very rare, and most dont live 10k years but lost most of them due to Warp time. A large chunk of the Chaos Marine are not more than the only low-quality scum that made it, but will never reach the quality of the loyal Marines.
Wrong. Very wrong. The majority of Chaos Marines were around at the time of the Heresy, for most, only a few hundred years have passed at the very most due to residing in the time altering dimension of the Warp. This has also strengthened them, and given them more experience, having fought for far longer than the average Loyalist.
CSM have more fear than loyal Marines because their selfish live is all they have.
Nope. Fear is not a concept a Space Marine of any sort can feel unless they've been completely corrupted or possessed, in the case of Vandred in the Night Lords series.
Marines devoted to the Chaos gods as Sisters to the Emperor are also rare and then mad. Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines are such, but as I said mad at best. Iron Warriors, Night Lords or others try to use the Chaos gods but are not devoted.
Not sure what you mean to be fair. Chaos Marines devoted to a Chaos God, or Gods are exceedingly common. Mad I agree, mad with unwavering devotion.
Spoiler:
...
Thaddeus: Victory has it's own price.
Tarkus: Speak your mind, Thaddeus
Thaddeus: With each victory, I can feel more and more of myself slipping away.
Cyrus: Continue.
Thaddeus: In battle, it used to be a great rush, a thrill! Now more and more its became...
Tarkus: Purer.
Cyrus: Simpler.
Thaddeus: Yes... Both of those. I go to a place where my body and spirit are one; a perfect weapon honed by powers far beyond me.
Tarkus: You are leaving behind the remnants of your life before the chapter found you. A great honor, but melancholy.
Cyrus: And not without costs. You are not one of them anymore.
Thaddeus: Them... Humans... Men. No... I am not quite one of them them anymore.
...
I didnt knew Thaddeus was an expert on this matter or decides who is human.
Not human anymore in the symbolic or psychological sense. Biologically they're still very much human. Altered beyond the norm, but the same basic functions remain.
Actually, if you take BL to be canon Marines DO feel fear, but their psych-conditioning allows them to master it so that they don't run away/go insane/curl up in a little ball
I know that that have an ability called 'and they shall know no fear' on the table but fluffwise it's more a mission statement than a solid fact.
FOD for example, has mariines getting the screaming heebie-jeebies due to the Necrons, but not acting on them because their psychoconditioning allows them to keep fighting while they are afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pg 55
'At least Orks Bickered, even the alien tyranid chittered and the Traitor hordes exalted and chanted: These soulless machines just stood in abject silence. Despite Scipio's Adeptus Astartes hypno-conditioning, it was unnerving'
Pg 143
'It had decapitated Renatus and lost his facee. Now the wretched creature wanted another. Only Scipio's psych-conditioning stopped him balking in terror.'
"Unnerving" Doesn't mean he was outright scared in this context. However, even if it does there are plenty instances of Space Marines mentioning they don't fell any fear, ever.
They are constantly being mentioned as being brave.
It is impossible to be brave if you can't feel fear.
There are plently of inferences (they don't outright say 'he was afraid' ) that indicate that Marines are capable of being apprehensive.
The second quote indicates that he would be outright terrified. Being unnerved also indicates a level of fear, as you can't be unnerved without feeling fear.
True, but there are plenty of instances where Space Marines don't feel any fear, mention or think that they shouldn't feel fear, or a mortal or other marine finds it odd that they don't, in the case of the former, or do in the case of the latter. The Horus Heresy books mention it quite a lot, as does the Night Lords books. Xarl believes Cyrion can feel fear and finds it sickening. Cyrion also finds it strange that Vandred and mortals can feel fear when all his brothers are incapable of it.
And They Shall Know No Fear is a dramatization, I would consider somebody conquering fear more impressive than someone who knows one as more impressive anyway.
They don't like to admit to feeling fear, and they don't feel it as intensely (due to conditioning) but they are capable of feeling it. Their mantra 'i shall know know fear' is irrelevant if they are truly fearless.
They tend to call their fear 'misgivings' or 'doubts' and so on.
They can be broken, though they rally almost instantly, and they can be rattled or creeped out. They are very very brave, and very hard to creep out/break, but not truly fearless (otherwise game-wise every marine unit would be Fearless, logically ).
sorry to bring back an old quote, but this bugged me.
Brother Coa wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:Dark Eldar. Space Marines. Eldar. Orks. Tyranids. Chaos Space Marines. Demons.
Space Marine aldo Super-Human are still Humans. And they fight for Humanity not themselves.
Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.
Tyranids, Orks are the only one who can effecievly fight Humanity. Still, Human military tactics and strategies defeat them countless times. Because of all those races - none of them exceed at warfare, they just fight - without reason, logic, strategy or ordinance.
So, you are basicly saying that there races ( Chaos Space Marines are Humans ) are better fighters than a Marine and much brave then Guardsman or fateful then Sister?
And that they are specialist in warfare more then Humans?
P.S. I am disappointed - you forgot Necrons
I wouldn't consider a Space Marine "Human", they are human as a Gorilla is to a Chimpanzee. Yes, they are both "Monkeys", but there are so many differences between them that they do not stand on the same calibur. I think the same of Astartes and Humans: There are too amny differences and augmentations in an Astartes to fairly call them "Human".
And You make it sound like the Xenos races are no threat whatsoever.
Dark Eldar are a very, very big threat ever since the new codex, the fluff really expanded Commarragh. Its not just one city, or planet. It is an impossibly huge kingdom of the Dark Eldar and all of their vassal races. To attempt to put a logical size on Commarragh is pretty much impossible. Now, I doubt it is the same size as the Imperium by any measure, the Imperium vastly outsizes it, but its probably pretty stinking big. Also, Dark Eldar can grow more Dark Eldar from tubes with their science. So their race has probably alot more numbers than their craftworld cousins. And Vect, albiet crazy, is a genius. So The Dark Eldar aren't just opporitunist Pirates: If they wanted to, they could give the IoM a run for its money. Could they seige Terra? No. However, I doubt they would play fair.
Now, the Craftworld Eldar probably win for bravest. They deal with the concept that their race is going extinct and there is nothing they can do about it. But what do they do? They perservere. They arent trying to find salvation, they are simply buying some more time. For what purpose? I don't know. But It must be a very big thing for them to continue to try and fight. And to fight on, even when there is no hope for a better future, for redemption, is the bravest thing anyone can do. So they are the bravest.
Now, you made it sound like the Tyranids are mindless beasts. They lack develpoed sentience individually, but the collective Hive mind is a cunning cunning animal. Remember, the Tyranids may have lost on Macargge, but they came *this* close to essentially wiping out the Ultramarines. They several times managed to outwith and outmanuver them. The fluff considers the Ultramarienes to be the most tacticaly brilliant SM chapter. And the Tyranids were able to outwith them several times under the Swarmlords command. The tyranids aren't stupid, and they have numbers. Remember that for every victory against the devourer, when you look at a map of where the hive fleets ravaged, there were obviously many more defeats.
The Orks are a similar story to the Nids, but with more numbers, and their latent psychic ailities make them very deadly indeed. Plus, their insane devotion to the Waaaagh! probably makes them the most faithful and devoted army.
But the finest warriors in the galaxy does belong to the IoM, and not for Space Marines. The Guard outpace the Space Marines in defense of the Imperium. In 95% of the IoM's battles, its the Guardsman on the ground taking the day. the other 5% is the Space marines in vital areas. But the Guard works with such precision for a force of trillions of soldiers that they have to be given some crdit as the finest warriors the imperium has. Considering all of the tight spots and hard places that the average Guardsman has to go through, they are all probably incredibally well trained individuals.
I agree with everything barring two points.
Firstly, it's Sapience, not Sentience, that Tyranids and other animals lack. The two are often mixed up but mean different things. We, humans, are Sapient. A Dog, isn't Sapient, but it's Sentient.
Secondly, the point about the Imperium's finest warriors. Unless you define 'Finest' in more detail, then there's really no argument about it. It's Space Marines. They're the most skilled, the best equipped and most tactically adept force humanity has. The Imperial Guard are at these engagement through virtues of necessity and number of both them and the Space Marines.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I would prolly say Tau were higher than Humans in Bravery.
Before Cao starts on "They haven't fought anything".
they HAVE fought Daemons (they think They killed Tzeentch)
They HAVE fought Tyranids (And won! read Shadowsun's Bio)
They HAVE fought Orkz (And won! Once again, see our good Friend O'Shassera's Bio. Page 46 of the Tau Empire Codex)
They HAVE fought Necrons (Alongside Ultramarines)
The only time they ever turned tail (that I remember, may be wrong on this since I haven't read much fluff in a while) Is when Captain Ventris threatened to blow up Pavonis if they didn't leave.
And on the most skilled: Eldar say hi!
IMO, for the Most brave, I'd prolly say Eldar on Both accounts, but Humans aren't high up there. Remember, for all 1,000,000 Space marines and all however many Sisters of Battle, there are trillions of Guardsmen. The ratio of Space marines to Guardsman is prolly 1:1,000,000 a tleast
As both an imperium and cron player i resent all of these statements. As tau your leadership is???????
Grey knights know no fear and crons are leadership 10.
Might i also remind you about how we (crons) saved your sorry tails from a tyranid invasion (of course then we did start eating you in their place........)
In fact I do remember a certain shoot them and run away tactic that the Tau seem to favor every time my knights engage them.
iproxtaco wrote:I agree with everything barring two points.
Firstly, it's Sapience, not Sentience, that Tyranids and other animals lack. The two are often mixed up but mean different things. We, humans, are Sapient. A Dog, isn't Sapient, but it's Sentient.
Secondly, the point about the Imperium's finest warriors. Unless you define 'Finest' in more detail, then there's really no argument about it. It's Space Marines. They're the most skilled, the best equipped and most tactically adept force humanity has. The Imperial Guard are at these engagement through virtues of necessity and number of both them and the Space Marines.
On Point One: Oops, looks like I have been using the word "Sentient" wrong my whole life... *awkwardly shuffles away*
On Point Two: True, and on a one to one scale the Space marines are the "finest" warriors in the galaxy, they could pommel the face in of almost any other race. But as an organizational whole, The Space Marines work as more of like super-man: for all of Supermans abilities, he is only one guy. And unlike Superman, you don't need kryptonite to kill a SM, you just need a well placed Bullet. So as a whole organization, I would put more trust in the Guard. So it depends I guess on if we are talking about "Finest warriors" as a "hombre y hombre" thing, or as an entire race thing.
The point about the Eldar is a very good one, the risk they take by exposing themselves to danger is immense and has a whole dimension beyond that which is true of other races. All races risk fear, pain and death. Only the Eldar risk further horror afterwards. The fluff implies IIRC that Eldar souls are self-aware following death and feel the pain, etc of being taken by Slaanesh. This makes it even more remarkable that they field units of guardians. Think about it, they are dying out and risk everything by fighting, so what do they do send in their precious civilians to fight and in the case of guardians, usually die. You can understand why orks flood forwards or IG are thrown away or why the Hive Mind throws waves of gaunts at the enemy but why on earth do the Eldar send their rare and precious civilians on suicide missions with weak armour and mediocre weapons?
Dark Eldar presumably have the same issue in that their souls too are forfeit if they die. They show no signs of worshipping chaos, they are hedonists and selfish not cultists. The new fluff, though, certainly changes their dynamics by talking up how many there are and implying that they are far more numerous than anyone thought in their wildest dreams!
Dark Eldar can be regenerated from a remnant body part, and they don't have the population problem the Craftworlders do, with the new codex fluff, as Commoragh is massively larger than previously hinted.
The Dark eldar use artificial gestation chambers and recloning from body fragments to keep their numbers up.
humans best quality is that they aren't extremists in terms of abilities, they have a balanced set of skills. Humans are both skillful warriors, but also numerous; they have the ability be both zealots and logical tacticians.
1.) A thread trolling against Xenos? Check!
2.) Thread started by Brother Coa? Check!
Now expecting a post like:
"But I just wanted a neutral discussion on how much non-humans suck, that's not trolling just being curious!"
im2randomghgh wrote:Eldar are quicker than humans, but humans are more physically more powerful.
When is this demonstrated?
Of all places, in the Tau codex. It said Tau were physically weaker than all the races in the galaxy, except the Eldar. Humans are stronger than Tau, whose are as strong or stronger than Eldar.
Though I suppose an Eldar could use psychic power to boost his/her strength...
While humans in the Imperial Guard are pushed into the meat grinder every day at the whim of their commander, they are not truely the bravest individuals in the galaxy. They are filled more with fear at the consequences of disobedience than the desire to sacrifice their lives for their Imperium. Truely in the 40k setting, bravery is not what makes an individual glorious, but more often that not it is the act of a fool (despite what Mat Ward says). Humans are rather reckless in the way they wage war, and a truely cunning commander like an Eldar or Astartes will only sacrific their soldiers in the name of honour or bravery if there is no other choice or if it is all part of their plan...
If it's too much trouble don't bother, am just curious because this is the first time I've heard Eldar were generally physically not as strong as humans.
They can't breed to produce fertile offspring. Since they aren't a species they aren't humans. They aren't even superhumans. They're a genetic experiment that starts from a human base.
Anyway, the real thing is that humans are winning because they have numbers (until some more hive fleets show up) and they're mostly defending.
Dark Eldar don't fight - they loot and raid.
Chaos Space Marines are also Humans ( Super Humans but still - Humans ).
Eldar also loot and raid - they don't wage wars.
Tyranids hunt, they don't wage wars (imagine fighting a pride of lions that are trying to eat you).
Orks wage waaaaaaaghs, not wars.
Point is, it's all war no matter how you look at it as far as we're concerned. Looting and raiding is a war tactic, not just straight on WWI style trench warfare.
There are plenty of people in this world who can't produce viable offspring are you saying that they aren't human or like space marines do that have genetic differences that stop them from reproducing.
Also, I am pretty sure nobody has TRIED setting a space marine up with a woman. Especially since they regard humans as inferior, it would be a bit like having relations with a garden gnome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And they ARE a species-Homo Astartes.
Short answer, No.
Long answer:
No, humans are too willing to betray each other for personal power even in the face of almost certain destruction, which frankly even Orks and Dark Eldar don't do.
iproxtaco wrote:Yes, they are a species, Homo sapiens. They're heavily altered humans, they aren't an entirely new species by our definition.
No, they are Homo Astartes.
Genestealers are heavily altered humans, would you call THEM Homo Sapiens?
Well, since Genestealers aren't human then no, I'd call them Genestealers, or whatever in game scientific title the Ad-mech have given them.
Nice of you to not actually try to give any reasons as to why they're a different species.
I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.
To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.
They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')
@ iproxtaco
Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.
Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).
Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens
Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.
The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *** qualifier for the pedantic or those who jump on buzzwords**
Alien does not always mean extraterrestrial. It also applies to anything added to your body that you didn't grow yourself
Ascalam wrote:I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.
To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.
They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')
The last point I'd like to expand on. Where do you draw the line?
@ iproxtaco
Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.
Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).
Stealer hybrids are quite different. For one there's an actual reproductive process to create them, the exchange of genes to form a new organism. I'd agree that they're an entirely new species for this fact alone.
Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens
Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.
The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.
And therein lies the difference. Astartes are humans, with extra organs, Stealer Hybrids are entirely new organisms.
They could be rendered unable to reproduce through their implantations. It's not really a good indicator considering the creation of new species would be impossible if they were unable to continue the line after a certain point.
In the original 40KSMs were certainly not humans, they were a gengineered species grown in vats that came with all the extra organs, etc in place. The fluff has now changed to them being humans who are subject to augmentation and given additional organs, etc. IMHO they are human as they are born human and augmented, I don't know of any way that an existing organism can be altered to a new species, just changed in its outward form, etc. Consider sex change, this does not make a person the other sex genetically, they are still the sex they began just the outward organs are changed. If a person is possessed by a demon does that make them non-human or just a human with new capabilities?
@iproxtaco: If I remember correctly in The First Heretic, Argel Tal spectulates on Astartes being a different species, mentioning that the are no longer Homo Sapiens, but Homo Astartes.
Dark Scipio wrote:I didnt knew Thaddeus was an expert on this matter or decides who is human.
Since you consider that this is offical fluff, and that three other veteran Marines say that they are no longer humans (in either psysically or mentally), I think it is pretty convicing.
Symbolically, they're no longer 'human' in mind. In body, yes, they're still Homo Sapiens, with some extra organs. Or they're genetic experiments and have no species, but they haevn't created an entirely new one.
Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?
This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?
First, Humans are a species, not a race.
Second, Nope, and Nope.
Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Marines are all braver and better warriors, and better at warfare.
Before anyone complains, Marines are not human by any stretch. They're a parasitic organism and a separate species. They do reproduce, each marine will have 2 children if they come to maturity. They just reproduce parasitically.
Not quite, in my opinion. There's no exchange of genes, and they don't go through a reproductive cycle. The Space Marine is not a parasite, they're humans, with organs that reproduce. The Progenoid gland is not alive, so cannot be a different species.
Humanity, in the 41st millenium, is weak. Humanity is a fool. They had the galaxy in the palm of their hands then let it slip away to one of their own. Let them burn. Their advantage comes from numbers and blind stupidity.
I say the humans greatest advantage is that before the Long Night, humans had some of the most cutting edge technology, motivation to expand and spread humanity. And with the coming of the Crusade, had the drive to conquer, kill every xeno and repopulate damn near every rock that humans could live on. Then build huge industrial centers on all of them. Humans greatest advantage at this point in the sheer number of humans, human controlled planets, and number of industrial complexes.
As time goes on, the Imperium only gets weaker, losses people, losses planets, losses technology, losses industrial planets. Now, if the Imperium were able to remove the bureaucratic corruption, get the Mechanicum to start reinventing technology and get some coordinated drive behind their military campaigns, they would rape every contender.
But only one man has been able to do that before, and he is taking a very long nap on terra.
Ascalam wrote:I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.
To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.
They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')
The last point I'd like to expand on. Where do you draw the line?
@ iproxtaco
Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.
Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).
Stealer hybrids are quite different. For one there's an actual reproductive process to create them, the exchange of genes to form a new organism. I'd agree that they're an entirely new species for this fact alone.
Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens
Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.
The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.
And therein lies the difference. Astartes are humans, with extra organs, Stealer Hybrids are entirely new organisms.
Look at it this way: Genestealers and Astartes both reproduce by taking humans, and changing them into their own species. Astartes are parasites, using humanity to bolster it's ranks.
Humans do not have two hearts.
=Homo Astartes.
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shimraa wrote:I say the humans greatest advantage is that before the Long Night, humans had some of the most cutting edge technology, motivation to expand and spread humanity. And with the coming of the Crusade, had the drive to conquer, kill every xeno and repopulate damn near every rock that humans could live on. Then build huge industrial centers on all of them. Humans greatest advantage at this point in the sheer number of humans, human controlled planets, and number of industrial complexes.
As time goes on, the Imperium only gets weaker, losses people, losses planets, losses technology, losses industrial planets. Now, if the Imperium were able to remove the bureaucratic corruption, get the Mechanicum to start reinventing technology and get some coordinated drive behind their military campaigns, they would rape every contender.
But only one man has been able to do that before, and he is taking a very long nap on terra.
Even if they united, the difference between this and the GC is the lack of primarch, walking gods, unified space marines, resources etc.
Wether we consider space marine's as a human race or not is irrelevant to the question. We get the point he is trying to get at. Is the imperium the best. I would say yes b/c if you look at it as a whole they have somethhing for everything somewhere. Its the allocation of their impressive resources that they have issues with. If they had one unifying mind (hive mind, c'tan, emperor, what have you) they would definatly rock the 40k universe.
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Wether we consider space marine's as a human race or not is irrelevant to the question. We get the point he is trying to get at. Is the imperium the best. I would say yes b/c if you look at it as a whole they have somethhing for everything somewhere. Its the allocation of their impressive resources that they have issues with. If they had one unifying mind (hive mind, c'tan, emperor, what have you) they would definatly rock the 40k universe.
Well, yeah, being ridiculously inefficient is kinda the Imperium's whole schtick. That's like saying if the Eldar weren't almost all dead, they would dominate the 40k universe.
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Wether we consider space marine's as a human race or not is irrelevant to the question. We get the point he is trying to get at. Is the imperium the best. I would say yes b/c if you look at it as a whole they have somethhing for everything somewhere. Its the allocation of their impressive resources that they have issues with. If they had one unifying mind (hive mind, c'tan, emperor, what have you) they would definatly rock the 40k universe.
Them being unified is as likely as all Necrons waking up, or all Orks uniting, or the Eldar bringing Ynnead to life, or Chaos creating a fifth god and PWNZN'G evrything, or the Tau suddenly becoming a major faction, or the main tyranid fleet arriving in the Milky Way.
All of which would end the IoM. Cept maybe the Tau thing
Ascalam wrote:I've seen fluff that shows that they don't consider themselves human.
To be fair, they started off human, but with all the extra organs and genetic tinkering i doubt they would be considered Homo Sapiens any more.
They are either a different breed of human - Homo Astartes, or n0t human any more (Depending in exactly where you draw the line 'human')
The last point I'd like to expand on. Where do you draw the line?
@ iproxtaco
Stealers reproduce by infecting other creastures.
Stealer hybrids have just as much claim to humanity as Astartes do, perhaps more, as they are the result of actual breeding between 2 humans, one of whom has has their dna altered. Purestrain stealers are born from hybrid parents that are almost completely human (barrign the fact that the child they have will be a purestrain stealer).
Stealer hybrids are quite different. For one there's an actual reproductive process to create them, the exchange of genes to form a new organism. I'd agree that they're an entirely new species for this fact alone.
Astartes are modified post birth with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens
Stealer Hybrids are modified from conception with new dna and organs, and are no longer homo sapiens.
The extra organs they slap into an astartes are alien too, biologically speaking.
And therein lies the difference. Astartes are humans, with extra organs, Stealer Hybrids are entirely new organisms.
Look at it this way: Genestealers and Astartes both reproduce by taking humans, and changing them into their own species. Astartes are parasites, using humanity to bolster it's ranks.
Humans do not have two hearts.
=Homo Astartes.
Agree to disagree. There's nothing more I can say and I don't want to repeat what I've said a few times now. No reproductive process, no exchange of genes, no factors which constitute the creation of a new species, therefore Astartes are human from my point of view.
Brother Coa wrote:...are the finest and bravest warriors in 40k? And most capable race when it comes to warfare?
This question regards all Humans ( Marines, Guard, Sisters, Navy, PDF... ). So, waht do you think?
Hm.
Well, the Imperial Guard are brave enough to follow Chenkov's orders to clear minefields by marching over them, and assault fortified citadels without armored support, instead of massacring their Commissars, then Chenkov, and going rogue. Though that may be indoctrinated stupidity on the part of their commander, who is apparently not only willing to, but PREFERS to waste their lives in such a fashion. Truly disgusting. Human lives may be plentiful, but there's no need to go about pissing them away by the millions like that, it's just a massive waste of good resources. Fun to watch though, as when I play Guard in Dawn of War 1, I tend to mass infantry and Sentinels, and send them immediately at the enemy as soon as they are built, just to see how many of my own casualties I can rack up. Last time I tried, I think it was around 1500. That's really neither here nor there. They're nowhere near the best that humanity has to offer, simply because there's no time to train them all. As a whole, they can be effective.
Space Marines are pretty good, regardless of whether they can or cannot be seen as human. They've got good training, good skills, very brave in the face of overwhelming odds, and they're certainly incredibly capable. There aren't a lot of them compared to humanity's numbers as a whole, but they make a massive difference when they show up with appropriate numbers. Quite capable, though they are the scalpel to the Guard's hammer, and because of their small numbers will need reinforcements to hold ground and secure larger areas. Another part in the Imperial war machine.
Sisters... I'm a bit biased, admittedly, but they seem pretty well trained, as they spend most of their free time either training for combat or seeking spiritual cleansing in the form of prayer to the Emperor. And they'd definitely need that spiritual cleansing, especially after a good, long day murdering almost helpless Guardsmen because their commander decided to be a dunce, turn heretical, and drag them along with him. Sort of a decent balance between Guard and Space Marines on an individual level. They serve another role in the Imperial war machine, though what exactly that is now that they're not with the Inquisition, I'm not entirely sure. I'll have to read their fluff again to find out what general type of targets they take out. Having them be power armored reinforcements for the Guard would be nice.
Imperial Navy, I've got no clue on, though I know they control the space navy to make it harder for traitor Guard to spread their message by having a separate chain of command. That's pretty much all I know about them.
Planetary Defence Forces, not a clue about what they do other than sit back and wait for trouble to come to their own world, and if it never does, so much the better. Still, if that's what they do, then it's a necessary job to provide a first line of defence.
Overall, humanity's pretty capable of warfare. The Dark Age of Technology really screwed them over, though, and if the Emperor were walking amongst his people in the 41st millennium, I'm sure he'd be rightfully pissed off at how far humanity has fallen. I dunno if he'd take kindly to the Sisters of Battle at all. Humanity certainly has offered up some of the finest commanders - Lord Solar Macharius is a name that comes up, though I dunno why, as I don't remember his fluff and can't be bothered to look it up - and some of the finest warriors - Space Marines certainly fit that bill as a generalized group - but there are certainly commanders and warriors from the other species that inhabit the galaxy in meaningful numbers, that are the equal of what humanity has to offer.
@Pouncey, Dark age was what made them powerful, it was when it ended that they were screwed. Dark age was when the STCs were built, and humanity was even more powerful then during the crusade due to having the men of iron, (until that backfired).
The Golden age of Humanity was Humanity at it's height.
The Dark Ages (like the medieval ones) where when all this learning and high tech went to hell in a handcart.
The current age is humanity attempting to recover from this dark age (which ended with the emperor coming to power and building the IOM to recover all the lost territory and tech.
Ascalam wrote:Um- i think you mena Golden age there.
The Golden age of Humanity was Humanity at it's height.
The Dark Ages (like the medieval ones) where when all this learning and high tech went to hell in a handcart.
The current age is humanity attempting to recover from this dark age (which ended with the emperor coming to power and building the IOM to recover all the lost territory and tech.
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. They were one in the same. It was called the Golden Age becomes humanity was the most powerful faction and invented all the modern Imperial technology. It was also called the Dark age because of the Techno-Heresies of the time.
Ascalam wrote:Um- i think you mena Golden age there.
The Golden age of Humanity was Humanity at it's height.
The Dark Ages (like the medieval ones) where when all this learning and high tech went to hell in a handcart.
The current age is humanity attempting to recover from this dark age (which ended with the emperor coming to power and building the IOM to recover all the lost territory and tech.
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. They were one in the same. It was called the Golden Age becomes humanity was the most powerful faction and invented all the modern Imperial technology. It was also called the Dark age because of the Techno-Heresies of the time.
The previous 10,000 years - M31 to M41 - were collectively known as the Age of Imperium, during which, there was a period known as the Golden Age of Imperium in which lots of good stuff happened, and bad guys were "expunged." Then things got worse, then bad, and declining further and further until now, in the final years of M41, the Imperium is crumbling.
So basically, I was wrong. The Dark Ages of Technology - there were 2 or 3, IIRC, were all prior to the Heresy.
What I was basically referring to originally was how the Imperium's been on a steady decline since the Heresy - though I'll admit I was completely unfamiliar with the Golden Age of Imperium where things got better for a while - with knowledge and learning being reduced to ritual and indoctrination.
Ascalam wrote:They don't like to admit to feeling fear, and they don't feel it as intensely (due to conditioning) but they are capable of feeling it. Their mantra 'i shall know know fear' is irrelevant if they are truly fearless.
They tend to call their fear 'misgivings' or 'doubts' and so on.
They can be broken, though they rally almost instantly, and they can be rattled or creeped out. They are very very brave, and very hard to creep out/break, but not truly fearless (otherwise game-wise every marine unit would be Fearless, logically ).
Space Marines ARE Fearless. They NEVER break or run from battle.The rule And They Shall Know No Fear represents their insane, suicidal courage and psycho-conditioning. The reason they don't have the rule fearless is because an army with this rule on everything has a vast disadvantage to an army that can break close combat. When Marines fail a "morale check" (if it was truly about morale, Marines would always pass), it means that they are making a tactical retreat, definitely not breaking out of fear. This is why ATSKNF is paired with combat tactics. This is also why ATSKNF is one of the BEST special rules in the game. It's fearless with no drawbacks. Black Templars have army-wide fearless, because they are Space Marines that don't want to retreat in face of the enemy even when it is tactically reasonable to do so (this is a disadvantage over C:SM). THAT'S what "NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!" represents. Space Marines are the epitome of fearless soldiers. Even before they become Marines, they are the bravest humans possible. On top of this, they receive psycho-conditioning to make the immune to fear. An entire army with fearless is actually not easy to play. Breaking close combat is a huge advantage.
And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.
Nerivant wrote:The question of species doesn't lie in the extra organs of the Astartes, but in the ability for a sperm cell from an Astates to fertilize a human egg.
If it could not, then they are a separate species.
That said, it will probably never be mentioned, ever.
Actually, the question of species is a bit more complex than that. While the classical definition of species is that one species cannot produce fertile offspring with another, the reproductive barriers are often not genetic. In fact, quite a few biologists think the term "species" has become arbitrary.
DarknessEternal wrote:Before anyone complains, Marines are not human by any stretch. They're a parasitic organism and a separate species. They do reproduce, each marine will have 2 children if they come to maturity. They just reproduce parasitically.
First of all, the marine is not a parasitic organism. The marine is a human who was augmented, not the augments themselves.
Second, if the marine implants do count as a separate organism, the relationship is not parasitic. It is mutualistic. The human gets super powers, the new organs get nutrients.
Third... Calling the marine geneseed its own organism is a bit odd.
You can't be brave without having a capacity for fear.
Fearless = incapable of bravery.
They wouldn't have to constantly tell themselves that 'i/they shall know no fear' unless it was a possibility they had to guard against. It would be like saying 'and the sun is on fire' otherwise. It would be self evident, and thus not necessary to mention.
They are often mentioned in the fluff as being unnerved/startled/uneasy/troubled/intimidated (usually by a Chaplain for the intimidated) etc. - All these are fear reactions.
Feeling fear and overcoming it in order to do something else is bravery. You may refuse to call it fear, but its fear nonetheless. They are mentioned continually as being brave and couragous. These are the result of overcoming fear.
I prefer my SM as heroes, not as slightly fleshier robots, thanks
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Black Knight wrote:
And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.
Actually, it has one Marine damn near doing exactly that. The hypnoconditioning blunts the effect enough that he is just creeped out, rather than gibbering in terror, but if Marines were so self evidently immune to fear why would they bother to mention his reaction
Ascalam wrote:You can't be brave without having a capacity for fear.
Fearless = incapable of bravery.
They wouldn't have to constantly tell themselves that 'i/they shall know no fear' unless it was a possibility they had to guard against. It would be like saying 'and the sun is on fire' otherwise. It would be self evident, and thus not necessary to mention.
They are often mentioned in the fluff as being unnerved/startled/uneasy/troubled/intimidated (usually by a Chaplain for the intimidated) etc. - All these are fear reactions.
Feeling fear and overcoming it in order to do something else is bravery. You may refuse to call it fear, but its fear nonetheless. They are mentioned continually as being brave and couragous. These are the result of overcoming fear.
I prefer my SM as heroes, not as slightly fleshier robots, thanks
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Black Knight wrote:
And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.
Actually, it has one Marine damn near doing exactly that. The hypnoconditioning blunts the effect enough that he is just creeped out, rather than gibbering in terror, but if Marines were so self evidently immune to fear why would they bother to mention his reaction
They say "And They Shall Know No Fear" because it's something to be damned proud of. Kyme mentioned Scipio's reaction to the flayed ones to illustrate that Marines are immune to fear. If Scipio didn't have psycho-conditioning, he would have been terrified. But he had it, so he just fought the flayed one. If you say that Space Marines aren't fearless, and this is represented on tabletop by them not having fearless, then why do Black Templars have fearless as an army-wide rule?
Interesting note when i was browsing them on lexicanum :
During Horus' attack on the Emperor's Palace, Rogal Dorn chose Sigismund as the Emperor's Champion, and Sigismund was given the best armour and weapons. He went forward to challenge the traitorous leaders in single combat, and triumphed over all he met in battle. After the Horus Heresy, the breakdown of the Imperial Fists into Codex chapters was demanded by Roboute Guilliman. Dorn thought him a coward for not being there with the Ultramarines to help in the defence of Terra. Guilliman in his turn thought a rebel of Dorn for not adhering to the new Codex Astartes.'
How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.
The Deciever ought not to be able to make Marines feel fear, if they are immune to such things, always., but he can.
How about why the rest of the Marines don't? Fear does not always mean running screaming from something. There are gradiations that tend to get missed in this kind of discussion, as SM folk will generally say 'No Fear, never no-how ' without even thinking about it. the mantra 'and they shall know no fear' could as easily be the same as the 'no fear' affirmation used by extreme sports fans. Do they feel fear anyway? Probably.
Possibly unconnected question:
Can Marines feel awe, be unnerved or apprehensive?
Also are Marines brave and courageous? I seem to remember them always being touted as such...
id say that the most couragous are indeed humans, for without fear there is no courage. Being couragous is facing your fear, and conquoring them. Space Marines, (both kinds) orks, nids, necrons, ect are not fearful so they cant be couragous.
Sure humanity doesnt have the best equipment, nor are they the strongest, or fastest. But they use supieror tactics, which is the key to success. So not the best warriors, but they are definently the best soldiers.
Ascalam wrote:You can't be brave without having a capacity for fear.
Fearless = incapable of bravery.
They wouldn't have to constantly tell themselves that 'i/they shall know no fear' unless it was a possibility they had to guard against. It would be like saying 'and the sun is on fire' otherwise. It would be self evident, and thus not necessary to mention.
They are often mentioned in the fluff as being unnerved/startled/uneasy/troubled/intimidated (usually by a Chaplain for the intimidated) etc. - All these are fear reactions.
Feeling fear and overcoming it in order to do something else is bravery. You may refuse to call it fear, but its fear nonetheless. They are mentioned continually as being brave and couragous. These are the result of overcoming fear.
I prefer my SM as heroes, not as slightly fleshier robots, thanks
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Black Knight wrote:
And I've read Fall of Damnos. In that novel, Space Marines are described as being "bred without fear", and showing courage beyond what any human could. The Marines aren't affected at all by the necron flayed ones, while the humans are gaking themselves.
Actually, it has one Marine damn near doing exactly that. The hypnoconditioning blunts the effect enough that he is just creeped out, rather than gibbering in terror, but if Marines were so self evidently immune to fear why would they bother to mention his reaction
Well as to the "and they shall know no fear" thing, I think the reason they say it is because the Emperor himself, object of their veneration, said that, and it fills them with martial pride.
As for the Fearless=not brave thing, it is not necessarily that black and white. They are still conscious of the risk of dying, but perform their duty anyways. They simply don't care. But to be cognizant of the risks and do it anyways, is bravery.
yes the Imperium has the bravest fighters. because the Imperium has one thing that most other races don't, a reason to fight. The Imperium no longer fights to conquer(at least not like they use to), it fights to control what they have left and controlling what they have left means if they don't win than they die.
Tau are a bunch of pussies, same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar
Orks just fight for fun, they don't give a gak
Tyranids are just fighting to devour everything in the universe
And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.
Kazerkinelite wrote:yes the Imperium has the bravest fighters. because the Imperium has one thing that most other races don't, a reason to fight. The Imperium no longer fights to conquer(at least not like they use to), it fights to control what they have left and controlling what they have left means if they don't win than they die.
Tau are a bunch of pussies, same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar
Orks just fight for fun, they don't give a gak
Tyranids are just fighting to devour everything in the universe
And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.
Hmm what quote supports this OH YEAH!
Your foe is well equipped, well-trained, battle-hardened. He believes his gods are on his side. Let him believe what he will. We have the tanks on ours.
— Colonel Joachim Pfeiff, Krieg 14th Armoured Regiment +++
We hold them here or we fight them on the hallowed ground of Terra itself. I for one would rather see a million human lives lost here than allow a single Ork to set foot on Earth.
— General Pavlov, Armageddon Command Guard +++
Attention all vessels, this is Lord Admiral Rath. It is clear to me that we cannot win this fight by utilising conventional weapons of warfare. I order you all to disengage and withdraw. The Dominus Astra shall be the fiery sword of retribution that ends this war. I repeat, disengage and pull away. The Emperor's blessing be upon you!
+++ Final transmission of Lord Admiral Zaccarius Rath +++
What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!
— Lord Commander Solar Macharius +++
To prove my point the Imperium has courage and courage alone saves humanity.
Tell that to the Astral Knights that attacked with courage and their chapter to fight against the world engine where they succeeded and stopped the World engine in its tracks.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Nightbringer apparently missed the Orks when it seeded the fear of death into the galaxy.
I wouldn't take that passage literally. It makes pretty little sense to me, and I always assumed that it was supposed to be metaphorical (that said, I never understood how his Necrodermis of all things could taint Khaine with the Aspect of the Destroyer when I thought he was supposed to be a Warp God anyway).
Kazerkinelite wrote:And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.
That's really not what happened during the Crusades (in the Middle East, at least).
On-topic; it's pretty much impossible to compare levels of bravery between those who are willing to knowingly sacrifice their lives for their goal. The Tau, Eldar and Imperials who fight for others knowing that they will die are all equally brave, unless you care to factor in the fear of what lies beyond (the Eldar having a chance of torture or tranquility in the Infinity Matrix while the Imperials believe that they will join the Emperor upon death, and I've no idea as to the Tau). Even the followers of Chaos who aren' fighting for the chance of immortality could be considered brave. Tyranids, Necrons and Orks don't really come into it, and the Dark Eldar are so arrogant, as well as having the ability to essentially be resurrected, that I don't think they feel the same level of fear (and so can't bravely overcome that fear).
Kazerkinelite wrote:yes the Imperium has the bravest fighters. because the Imperium has one thing that most other races don't, a reason to fight. The Imperium no longer fights to conquer(at least not like they use to), it fights to control what they have left and controlling what they have left means if they don't win than they die.
Tau are a bunch of pussies, same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar
Orks just fight for fun, they don't give a gak
Tyranids are just fighting to devour everything in the universe
And Chaos is like the middle age crusades, they just kill everything that doesn't worship their god, including other legions that worship the other gods.
They ALL have reasons to fight.
The Tau fight because they KNOW they will face retribution from the Imperium, and they know they need to grow stronger to resist the Imperium's fleets while they're distracted by the Tyranids.
The Eldar fight for survival every bit as much as Humans do, they are basically the IoM in a more advanced state of decay.
The Dark Eldar raid to save their souls from Slaanesh, who will torture them until the end of time.
Ork are more fierce and single-minded then the IoM could ever be. No one gets as intense about combat as they do except maybe berserkers.
Tyranids are compelled by the Hive Mind with more force then courage and dogma could ever do.
And chaos units are often created with the single purpose of ending life, unlike humans.
The IG/SoB/SM are very fierce, but do not underestimate the other races of the galaxy.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.
You need to get off my back, dude.
not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.
EVERYONE IS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL!!!
Well, 'cept 'crons. They're fighting for desurvival(?). At least, that's how it is until the new codex, where they're fluff is going to be so whacked, they undoubtedly will win the award for most confusing race.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.
You need to get off my back, dude.
not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.
EVERYONE IS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL!!!
In all seriousness, regular people fighting daemons, xenos creatures and massive creatures of death they stand fight that is bravery right there, they are not indoctrinated they are humans that are militia men and they fight for humanity knowing they can keep fighting and they will be victorious or die trying.
Ascalam wrote:How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.
Guilliman is not a marine; he is a primarch raised in completely different conditions with no special psychological conditioning. Of course, I'd expect a primarch to be braver than the average marine...
Ascalam wrote:How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.
Guilliman is not a marine; he is a primarch raised in completely different conditions with no special psychological conditioning. Of course, I'd expect a primarch to be braver than the average marine...
plus he was a coward for not putting down what he was doing and not rushing straight to the imperial palace like the other legions did.
Ascalam wrote:How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.
Guilliman is not a marine; he is a primarch raised in completely different conditions with no special psychological conditioning. Of course, I'd expect a primarch to be braver than the average marine...
plus he was a coward for not putting down what he was doing and not rushing straight to the imperial palace like the other legions did.
Fluff fail.
From Lexicanum:
Before Horus declared his treachery against the Emperor, he had ordered the Ultramarines Legion to go to the Veridan System in Segmentum Tempestus far to the galactic south, claiming that the system was under attack by an Ork invasion force from the Ghaslakh Empire. Roboute Guilliman commanded his troops to depart at once and set course for Ultramar, so he could meet up with more of his forces and obtain supplies. Ultramar was close enough for an assault against Veridan, so Roboute ordered his Legion to assemble in the Calth System.
As Roboute and his fleets arrived at Calth, they knew something was wrong, because none of their Astropaths could get messages through the Warp and the storms were interfering with the navigation of their ships; they were blocked from the rest of the Imperium. It was at this moment that the traitor forces of the Word Bearers Legion attacked, rendering the Ultramarines unable to participate in much of the Battle for Terra.
Interesting note when i was browsing them on lexicanum :
How can Dorn consider Guilliman a coward if everyone KNOWS no Marine is in any way able to feel fear? Cowardice is as dependent on fear as bravery is on overcoming it.
The Deciever ought not to be able to make Marines feel fear, if they are immune to such things, always., but he can.
Because it's an insult...? That's like asking why you would call a person stupid, even if they're intelligent. What's this fluff about the deceiver anyway?
Black Knight wrote:Because it's an insult...? That's like asking why you would call a person stupid, even if they're intelligent. What's this fluff about the deceiver anyway?
One of the Star Gods, C'tan, of the Necrons.
The Nightbringer was able to paralyze Marines in fear with its presence, as well.
Yes, humans are great fighters. Each different army of the IoM is very good at what they do, put them together you have a cohesive fighting force capable of smashing aside any other force in the galaxy. (Notice this isn't challenging the warp, it's limited to the galaxy.)
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.
You need to get off my back, dude.
not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.
By that logic, Eldar are the bravest race in 40k. They have so much more on the line than humans every time they step onto the battlefield: they risk their souls being lost and tortured forever, not to mention the fact that their race is dying and every lost Eldar life is a huge blow to the strength of their species as a whole.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.
You need to get off my back, dude.
not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.
By that logic, Eldar are the bravest race in 40k. They have so much more on the line than humans every time they step onto the battlefield: they risk their souls being lost and tortured forever, not to mention the fact that their race is dying and every lost Eldar life is a huge blow to the strength of their species as a whole.
The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.
The bravest species is Tau. For in a grimdark setting, weeaboos should not have a home. Yet they do. And I am proud to join in, though I hate the weeaboos as well.
Black Knight wrote:The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.
Not sure if serious...?
Humans are cowardly in 40k, hence the existence of Commissars. The average human is not as brave as an Eldar.
Hell, the Eldar race are arguably the bravest race in the galaxy, capable of feeling fear, having so much more to lose than a human, and having lost so much already. But they still fight.
Humans are ignorant, idiotic vermin, their only greater purpose in life is to be harvested, for the master. That will be made very apparent soon enough.
Black Knight wrote:The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.
Not sure if serious...?
Humans are cowardly in 40k, hence the existence of Commissars. The average human is not as brave as an Eldar.
Hell, the Eldar race are arguably the bravest race in the galaxy, capable of feeling fear, having so much more to lose than a human, and having lost so much already. But they still fight.
Humans are ignorant, idiotic vermin, their only greater purpose in life is to be harvested, for the master. That will be made very apparent soon enough.
Orks, because nothing is braver than driving a warbike off a mesa into a warlord titan while on fire, slaying the entire crew while on fire, and destroying it while on fire.
Eldar do fight wars well, but they are clearly on the brink of extinction, therefore there desire for war is somewhat foolish for such a intellectual race. The DE on the other hand are just as capable fighters and have a much more stable population, but their saidism and hedonism keeps them from truly being "brave" I think.
Humans I think are brave, for the guardsmen to go up against the terrors of the galazy requires alot and the pinnacle of humanity, space marines and grey knights (who may not technically be humans, but theyre the closest thing to it in the galaxy) which shows the strength of human dedication and spirit.
However for the races that are best at warfare, Tyranids of Orks would probably take the cake. They both are bred for it and thoroughly center their entire lives around it.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Fine, if we don't use fluff examples, let's use stats.
You need to get off my back, dude.
not really humans and super humans are braver than other races because they are fighting for their survival.
EVERYONE IS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL!!!
In all seriousness, regular people fighting daemons, xenos creatures and massive creatures of death they stand fight that is bravery right there, they are not indoctrinated they are humans that are militia men and they fight for humanity knowing they can keep fighting and they will be victorious or die trying.
PDF is militia. Guard is professional, if not particularly elite in anyway, they are at least vaguely competant. I would say an IG trooper is about 2/3 as well trained as a modern soldier.
Based on...what?
How well trained is a modern soldier? From what nation? What is modern? How well trained is the IG? Which IG?
I'd say that about 2/3s of statistics lack a factual basis for statistical comparison.
AustonT wrote:Based on...what? How well trained is a modern soldier? From what nation? What is modern? How well trained is the IG? Which IG? I'd say that about 2/3s of statistics lack a factual basis for statistical comparison.
Lacking a factual basis...just like saying the guard is a militia.
Black Knight wrote:The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.
Not sure if serious...?
Humans are cowardly in 40k, hence the existence of Commissars. The average human is not as brave as an Eldar.
Hell, the Eldar race are arguably the bravest race in the galaxy, capable of feeling fear, having so much more to lose than a human, and having lost so much already. But they still fight.
Humans are ignorant, idiotic vermin, their only greater purpose in life is to be harvested, for the master. That will be made very apparent soon enough.
Why do you question my Battle-Brother's seriousness? All of the aliens will be purged in the holy flames of destruction, and their kind shall fall. The Emperor ordains it so.
On a more serious note, the humans truly are the bravest. The Eldar are brave, yes, but not so brave as humans. They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks. They have very few homeworlds, and they ive in their craftworlds; constantly moving vessels because they are too afraid to remain stationary. And then there is the arrogance. They always mock the humans for being somewhat lesser than they are, and highlight how awesome they are. They are the Ultramarines of the xenos races. And still they hide and run away if the battle is lost.
Sure they risk destroying themselves when in battle, but so do everyone else in the galaxy. The Eldar are the only ones who make a number from it. Yeah, they also risk their souls to be lost in the Warp and stuff. But so do Dark Eldar. They do not complain about it. They just accept the fact and fight.
And you don't see commissars with Space Marines, do you. Besides, they are only there to stand as an example, and keep up the morale. Only a portion of commissars uphold this by shooting the brains out of troopers. They are usually killed by friendly fire, "accidental" or not.
Black Knight wrote:The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.
Not sure if serious...?
Humans are cowardly in 40k, hence the existence of Commissars. The average human is not as brave as an Eldar.
Hell, the Eldar race are arguably the bravest race in the galaxy, capable of feeling fear, having so much more to lose than a human, and having lost so much already. But they still fight.
Humans are ignorant, idiotic vermin, their only greater purpose in life is to be harvested, for the master. That will be made very apparent soon enough.
Why do you question my Battle-Brother's seriousness? All of the aliens will be purged in the holy flames of destruction, and their kind shall fall. The Emperor ordains it so.
On a more serious note, the humans truly are the bravest. The Eldar are brave, yes, but not so brave as humans. They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks. They have very few homeworlds, and they ive in their craftworlds; constantly moving vessels because they are too afraid to remain stationary. And then there is the arrogance. They always mock the humans for being somewhat lesser than they are, and highlight how awesome they are. They are the Ultramarines of the xenos races. And still they hide and run away if the battle is lost.
Sure they risk destroying themselves when in battle, but so do everyone else in the galaxy. The Eldar are the only ones who make a number from it. Yeah, they also risk their souls to be lost in the Warp and stuff. But so do Dark Eldar. They do not complain about it. They just accept the fact and fight.
Since when does guerrilla warfare make you a coward? It makes you smart. The crimson fists rely on Guerrilla warfare now, does that make THEM cowards?
Black Knight wrote:The eldar species xenos are vile cowards. They have no understanding of the greatest human virtue, courage. Their arrogance is also one of their greatest sins. They, like all xenos must be exterminated.
Not sure if serious...?
Humans are cowardly in 40k, hence the existence of Commissars. The average human is not as brave as an Eldar.
Hell, the Eldar race are arguably the bravest race in the galaxy, capable of feeling fear, having so much more to lose than a human, and having lost so much already. But they still fight.
Humans are ignorant, idiotic vermin, their only greater purpose in life is to be harvested, for the master. That will be made very apparent soon enough.
Why do you question my Battle-Brother's seriousness? All of the aliens will be purged in the holy flames of destruction, and their kind shall fall. The Emperor ordains it so.
On a more serious note, the humans truly are the bravest. The Eldar are brave, yes, but not so brave as humans. They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks. They have very few homeworlds, and they ive in their craftworlds; constantly moving vessels because they are too afraid to remain stationary. And then there is the arrogance. They always mock the humans for being somewhat lesser than they are, and highlight how awesome they are. They are the Ultramarines of the xenos races. And still they hide and run away if the battle is lost.
Sure they risk destroying themselves when in battle, but so do everyone else in the galaxy. The Eldar are the only ones who make a number from it. Yeah, they also risk their souls to be lost in the Warp and stuff. But so do Dark Eldar. They do not complain about it. They just accept the fact and fight.
Since when does guerrilla warfare make you a coward? It makes you smart. The crimson fists rely on Guerrilla warfare now, does that make THEM cowards?
They rely on that because their numbers are 500 or less. Before you say that is also the case of the Eldar, it is not. They are actually quite numerous, and could fight like everyone else. Even the DE clone themselves. And I am not saying the humans are braver only because the Eldar prefer hit and run tactics.
Erm, no? Eldar can't fight like everyone else. They're a dying race, that's their most basic theme. They can't afford to take part in the same attrition warfare like the Imperium. There's a reason all Eldar citizens have to fight at some point, and there's a reason they fight in the shadows using precise applications of force.
iproxtaco wrote:Erm, no? Eldar can't fight like everyone else. They're a dying race, that's their most basic theme. They can't afford to take part in the same attrition warfare like the Imperium. There's a reason all Eldar citizens have to fight at some point, and there's a reason they fight in the shadows using precise applications of force.
It just makes sense.
They fight using STRATEGY unlike most other races who just go for the all-out highland charge.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Why do you question my Battle-Brother's seriousness? All of the aliens will be purged in the holy flames of destruction, and their kind shall fall. The Emperor ordains it so.
Your god is a corpse on a chair. My gods extinguished the stars on a whim.
On a more serious note, the humans truly are the bravest. The Eldar are brave, yes, but not so brave as humans. They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks. They have very few homeworlds, and they ive in their craftworlds; constantly moving vessels because they are too afraid to remain stationary. And then there is the arrogance. They always mock the humans for being somewhat lesser than they are, and highlight how awesome they are. They are the Ultramarines of the xenos races. And still they hide and run away if the battle is lost.
I think you're confusing "being expendable" with "being brave." The Eldar as a race are not able to do battles of attrition like humanity, so they use more subtle, manipulative strategies, engaging in subterfuge and trying to always avoid losing Eldar lives. But when they have to, for instance when they defended their Maiden Worlds from Hive Fleet Kraken, they are every bit as capable as in a stand-up fight. They fear remaining stationary because a lone Craftworld makes an easy target for a Necron harvest fleet, or a Hive Fleet. They are arrogant, yes, but any more than the humans? Even as early as the Great Crusade, the humans believed in a Manifest Destiny, that by virtue of being so much superior to any other race in the galaxy they deserved to rule it, and the xenos deserved only death at worst, enslavement at best. Compared to the Eldar, who, according to Eldrad, only really distrust and dislike humanity because of their incredibly aggressive expansionist methods, their habit of taking what doesn't belong to them.
Sure they risk destroying themselves when in battle, but so do everyone else in the galaxy. The Eldar are the only ones who make a number from it. Yeah, they also risk their souls to be lost in the Warp and stuff. But so do Dark Eldar. They do not complain about it. They just accept the fact and fight.
The Eldar, if they die without their soul stone, suffer more than simply death. The Eldar style of warfare focuses on attaining victory with as little Eldar casualties as possible, that's not cowardly, that's intelligent. The Dark Eldar? The Dark Eldar fear death more than any other faction, which is part of the reason they do the horrible things they do, to stay death's hand a little longer. Also, the Dark Eldar don't "fight," if a Dark Eldar has a choice between raiding a heavily defended fortress world with a Space Marine chapter housed there, or a defenseless agri-world, they will always go for the defenseless agri-world. The Dark Eldar are petty, opportunistic raiders.
And you don't see commissars with Space Marines, do you. Besides, they are only there to stand as an example, and keep up the morale. Only a portion of commissars uphold this by shooting the brains out of troopers. They are usually killed by friendly fire, "accidental" or not.
Space Marines are technically human, but they are a miniscule fraction of humanity, and are obvious exceptions. The Commissars are morale officers that sometimes must uphold it by killing troops, yes. Notice how the Eldar don't need them.
They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks.
Since when does guerrilla warfare make you a coward? It makes you smart.
I think you're confusing "being expendable" with "being brave."
It's kind of a grey area as far as I can see. There is a difference between bravery and stupidity, but it's hard to see a fine line to differentiate the two.
Seriously, humans aren't the finest warriors and bravery is all relative anyway. Even Sphess Muhreens are infinitely inferior to big Tyranid beasties and experienced Eldar. Orks are probably the finest warriors, the entire race being a psychic weapon and each individual creature tuned for war. Bravery is pretty much impossible to measure, since we're talking about trillions of people in the IG with varying levels of cowardice. I would usually say Space Marines are such a tiny minority as to be irrelevent, but that gets me flames so instead I'll just say that firstly, their fear emotion has been dulled by the creation process, and bravery is all about conquering fear. Secondly, they're 7 feet tall and armoured like a tank so they're bound not to fear much. You could argue the other way and say they feel little fear and so are the bravest warriors ever, but that's what makes claims of 'bravest' so confusing- some people may think bravery is lack of fear, others think of it as the ability to conquer your fears and then we'd have a debate between two brick walls.
TrollPie wrote:Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooo.
Seriously, humans aren't the finest warriors and bravery is all relative anyway. Even Sphess Muhreens are infinitely inferior to big Tyranid beasties and experienced Eldar. Orks are probably the finest warriors, the entire race being a psychic weapon and each individual creature tuned for war. Bravery is pretty much impossible to measure, since we're talking about trillions of people in the IG with varying levels of cowardice. I would usually say Space Marines are such a tiny minority as to be irrelevent, but that gets me flames so instead I'll just say that firstly, their fear emotion has been dulled by the creation process, and bravery is all about conquering fear. Secondly, they're 7 feet tall and armoured like a tank so they're bound not to fear much. You could argue the other way and say they feel little fear and so are the bravest warriors ever, but that's what makes claims of 'bravest' so confusing- some people may think bravery is lack of fear, others think of it as the ability to conquer your fears and then we'd have a debate between two brick walls.
Your avatar is a chicken.
Saying they're seven feet tall might get you flames too. The description of their height varies immensely. Ranging from 2m (6'6") to 9'.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Your god is a corpse on a chair. My gods extinguished the stars on a whim.
Your God? Hm interesting... we will see how "godly" they will be in new codex p.s. Emperor is not just a corpse like you think...
Yes, we will.
And yes, he's a corpse, sitting in a chair, his mind is the only thing left, and it's ties to the mortal world grow ever weaker. We'll see how brave your Imperial Guard are when the Emperor is no more.
To add my own point, no, no they aren't. Your average Imperial Guard is not much more than your average man given a gun. They have some training, but that's near insignificant when fighting the likes of Orkz, and Chaos. There's a reason the Imperium relies on weight of numbers and masses of armour.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Why do you question my Battle-Brother's seriousness? All of the aliens will be purged in the holy flames of destruction, and their kind shall fall. The Emperor ordains it so.
Your god is a corpse on a chair. My gods extinguished the stars on a whim.
On a more serious note, the humans truly are the bravest. The Eldar are brave, yes, but not so brave as humans. They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks. They have very few homeworlds, and they ive in their craftworlds; constantly moving vessels because they are too afraid to remain stationary. And then there is the arrogance. They always mock the humans for being somewhat lesser than they are, and highlight how awesome they are. They are the Ultramarines of the xenos races. And still they hide and run away if the battle is lost.
I think you're confusing "being expendable" with "being brave." The Eldar as a race are not able to do battles of attrition like humanity, so they use more subtle, manipulative strategies, engaging in subterfuge and trying to always avoid losing Eldar lives. But when they have to, for instance when they defended their Maiden Worlds from Hive Fleet Kraken, they are every bit as capable as in a stand-up fight. They fear remaining stationary because a lone Craftworld makes an easy target for a Necron harvest fleet, or a Hive Fleet. They are arrogant, yes, but any more than the humans? Even as early as the Great Crusade, the humans believed in a Manifest Destiny, that by virtue of being so much superior to any other race in the galaxy they deserved to rule it, and the xenos deserved only death at worst, enslavement at best. Compared to the Eldar, who, according to Eldrad, only really distrust and dislike humanity because of their incredibly aggressive expansionist methods, their habit of taking what doesn't belong to them.
Sure they risk destroying themselves when in battle, but so do everyone else in the galaxy. The Eldar are the only ones who make a number from it. Yeah, they also risk their souls to be lost in the Warp and stuff. But so do Dark Eldar. They do not complain about it. They just accept the fact and fight.
The Eldar, if they die without their soul stone, suffer more than simply death. The Eldar style of warfare focuses on attaining victory with as little Eldar casualties as possible, that's not cowardly, that's intelligent. The Dark Eldar? The Dark Eldar fear death more than any other faction, which is part of the reason they do the horrible things they do, to stay death's hand a little longer. Also, the Dark Eldar don't "fight," if a Dark Eldar has a choice between raiding a heavily defended fortress world with a Space Marine chapter housed there, or a defenseless agri-world, they will always go for the defenseless agri-world. The Dark Eldar are petty, opportunistic raiders.
And you don't see commissars with Space Marines, do you. Besides, they are only there to stand as an example, and keep up the morale. Only a portion of commissars uphold this by shooting the brains out of troopers. They are usually killed by friendly fire, "accidental" or not.
Space Marines are technically human, but they are a miniscule fraction of humanity, and are obvious exceptions. The Commissars are morale officers that sometimes must uphold it by killing troops, yes. Notice how the Eldar don't need them.
Lets see your god after Matt Ward has a word with him.
The Eldar are elitist , arrogant a-holes, just as xenophobic as the Imperium. They do not respect any other races, the regard even Tau as children who are inferior and stupid. Besides, Marines also try not to suffer heavy casualties during battles. By your logic, it means that they are even more brave, since they are not afraid to enter combat head on with very few numbers per strike force, when opponents like Eldar usually outnumber them. Both factions try to use tactics and minimize casualties. The Eldar are just the ones shying away from real combat.
The Eldar don't need commissars because they are too arrogant to be afraid. They think nothing can touch them. Also, they are few in number,and they choose the path of a warrior willingly. Humans usually have no choice, because their life sucks at their homeworld (eg. forced labor, endless factory shifts etc.) Still, they fight with valor, even if they have no choice and are sure to die. The Eldar step into the fray knowingly and willingly. Humans win the day even when they face things they have not even dared to dream about, ripping through their lines.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Why do you question my Battle-Brother's seriousness? All of the aliens will be purged in the holy flames of destruction, and their kind shall fall. The Emperor ordains it so.
Your god is a corpse on a chair. My gods extinguished the stars on a whim.
On a more serious note, the humans truly are the bravest. The Eldar are brave, yes, but not so brave as humans. They rarely engage in an all-out-battle, preferring to hide and control other races to do their bidding, eg. Orks. They have very few homeworlds, and they ive in their craftworlds; constantly moving vessels because they are too afraid to remain stationary. And then there is the arrogance. They always mock the humans for being somewhat lesser than they are, and highlight how awesome they are. They are the Ultramarines of the xenos races. And still they hide and run away if the battle is lost.
I think you're confusing "being expendable" with "being brave." The Eldar as a race are not able to do battles of attrition like humanity, so they use more subtle, manipulative strategies, engaging in subterfuge and trying to always avoid losing Eldar lives. But when they have to, for instance when they defended their Maiden Worlds from Hive Fleet Kraken, they are every bit as capable as in a stand-up fight. They fear remaining stationary because a lone Craftworld makes an easy target for a Necron harvest fleet, or a Hive Fleet. They are arrogant, yes, but any more than the humans? Even as early as the Great Crusade, the humans believed in a Manifest Destiny, that by virtue of being so much superior to any other race in the galaxy they deserved to rule it, and the xenos deserved only death at worst, enslavement at best. Compared to the Eldar, who, according to Eldrad, only really distrust and dislike humanity because of their incredibly aggressive expansionist methods, their habit of taking what doesn't belong to them.
Sure they risk destroying themselves when in battle, but so do everyone else in the galaxy. The Eldar are the only ones who make a number from it. Yeah, they also risk their souls to be lost in the Warp and stuff. But so do Dark Eldar. They do not complain about it. They just accept the fact and fight.
The Eldar, if they die without their soul stone, suffer more than simply death. The Eldar style of warfare focuses on attaining victory with as little Eldar casualties as possible, that's not cowardly, that's intelligent. The Dark Eldar? The Dark Eldar fear death more than any other faction, which is part of the reason they do the horrible things they do, to stay death's hand a little longer. Also, the Dark Eldar don't "fight," if a Dark Eldar has a choice between raiding a heavily defended fortress world with a Space Marine chapter housed there, or a defenseless agri-world, they will always go for the defenseless agri-world. The Dark Eldar are petty, opportunistic raiders.
And you don't see commissars with Space Marines, do you. Besides, they are only there to stand as an example, and keep up the morale. Only a portion of commissars uphold this by shooting the brains out of troopers. They are usually killed by friendly fire, "accidental" or not.
Space Marines are technically human, but they are a miniscule fraction of humanity, and are obvious exceptions. The Commissars are morale officers that sometimes must uphold it by killing troops, yes. Notice how the Eldar don't need them.
Lets see your god after Matt Ward has a word with him.
The Eldar are elitist , arrogant a-holes, just as xenophobic as the Imperium. They do not respect any other races, the regard even Tau as children who are inferior and stupid. Besides, Marines also try not to suffer heavy casualties during battles. By your logic, it means that they are even more brave, since they are not afraid to enter combat head on with very few numbers per strike force, when opponents like Eldar usually outnumber them. Both factions try to use tactics and minimize casualties. The Eldar are just the ones shying away from real combat.
The Eldar don't need commissars because they are too arrogant to be afraid. They think nothing can touch them. Also, they are few in number,and they choose the path of a warrior willingly. Humans usually have no choice, because their life sucks at their homeworld (eg. forced labor, endless factory shifts etc.) Still, they fight with valor, even if they have no choice and are sure to die. The Eldar step into the fray knowingly and willingly. Humans win the day even when they face things they have not even dared to dream about, ripping through their lines.
-_- now you're just showing us that your knowledge of the Eldar is incomplete. "They think nothing can touch them"? Now that's just silly. That is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth.
The Eldar are elitist , arrogant a-holes, just as xenophobic as the Imperium. They do not respect any other races, the regard even Tau as children who are inferior and stupid.
To be fair, they also don't execute such childish and inferior races on sight, as the Imperium does.
The Eldar don't need commissars because they are too arrogant to be afraid. They think nothing can touch them.
That contradicts your last statement. They're too arrogant to not fight, but they shy away from fighting? No, they don't need commissars because they know what they're fighting for, and that it's pretty important that they succeed.
Humans win the day even when they face things they have not even dared to dream about, ripping through their lines.
And Eldar win the day risking their souls, instead of just their lives. Besides, part of the reason the humans win is because, if they don't, there's a scary guy in a coat waiting for them with a bolt pistol.
The Eldar are elitist , arrogant a-holes, just as xenophobic as the Imperium. They do not respect any other races, the regard even Tau as children who are inferior and stupid.
To be fair, they also don't execute such childish and inferior races on sight, as the Imperium does.
The Eldar don't need commissars because they are too arrogant to be afraid. They think nothing can touch them.
That contradicts your last statement. They're too arrogant to not fight, but they shy away from fighting? No, they don't need commissars because they know what they're fighting for, and that it's pretty important that they succeed.
Humans win the day even when they face things they have not even dared to dream about, ripping through their lines.
And Eldar win the day risking their souls, instead of just their lives. Besides, part of the reason the humans win is because, if they don't, there's a scary guy in a coat waiting for them with a bolt pistol.
Also, they don't win more than any other race. It's just that the vast majority of material is from the Humans point of view.
i think we are all missing the point at what "brave" means. people keep citing SM and CSM with "they shall know no fear" but thats a genetic/medical removal of fear not bravery.
to be brave there must be a component of fear or else it is a non factor.
in the case of nids im not entirely familiar with them but if they operate on a hive mind then the individual creatures are also incapable of fear and they just kinda roll with the hive mind and its controllers fears.
so in a sense SM cant be brave, and only creatures that can KNOW fear can overcome it and thud be called brave.
) are better fighters than a Marine and much brave then Guardsman or fateful then Sister?
)
That said it is burdened by a lousy superstructure that can take centuries to make a decision, internal politics and strife between factions, and a foreign policy that makes the Nazi's look like Greenpeace 
