Alright, so I've been seeing a lot of threads and such lately about the Primarchs and I was wondering, out of all the Primarchs that could come back, which one should? I don't want this to be "Pick your favorite Primarch", I want you to think about which Primarch the Imperium would benefit the most from coming back?
For me it's a tie between Girlymen and Vulkan. Girlymen because he is the best strategist and General, and Vulkan because he is the "Peoples Primarch" and the best leader.
The Lion, Dorn, or Guilliman. The three that I think would restore some order to the Impeirum, and do at least some good. The rest would either just take control of their Chapters and do some fightin', or they would mess stuff up.
None of them should come back, any more then the Emperor should. Their absence (and the myths surrounding their death/disappearance and prophesied return) are vital elements of the Warhammer universe's atmosphere and tone.
Vulkan is the most likely to return of the choices. his Tome of fire is leading the slamanders closer and closer to finding his artefacts and the truth as to where he is.
I say Vulkan because I think that the Salamanders (and consequently those who play them) got boned. We got the short end of the background stick. I mean, Space Wolves and Imperial Fists and Ultramarines have all these cool stories about their Primarchs, but Vulkan really only did a couple of things before his "death." If he had at least actually died it would be something. At least Ferrus Manus has that much going for him.
Guilliman coming back could set up a schism between the Ultramarine and (some) of their successor chapters and the High Lords of Terra over the course of the Imperium.
Most of the other Primarchs' don't lend themselves to good stories if they come back.
English Assassin wrote:None of them should come back, any more then the Emperor should. Their absence (and the myths surrounding their death/disappearance and prophesied return) are vital elements of the Warhammer universe's atmosphere and tone.
That's true, but this is meant to be from a unbiased knowledgeable Imperium citizens point of view.
I don't think Guilliman coming back would be for the best. I don't see him playing nice with the High Lords of Terra, he'd probably try to just do things his own way, which would create a huge power struggle and leave the Imperium weak.
...actually as a xenos fan, that sounds pretty good! Let's bring back Guilliman!
Haha but as for what would be best for the Imperium, I'd say Dorn. He strikes me as more likely to not disturb the status quo too much while still lending his expertise to help.
Daston wrote:How did Vulkan get off Istvan I thought Corax couldn't find his brother
it isn't said anywhere.
It is known that he was seen alive after Istavan when he gave the Salamanders the last ever Legend of Zelda game(called the Tome of Fire) and said he was going off to look for something and would come back when they manage to beat the game. to date they are 55% complete
You have to wonder if the return of any of the primarchs would really be a good thing for the Imperium at this point. The Imperium is very different than it used to be, and the primarchs might not be too keen on those differences. Any schism at this point could be catastrophic for them.
want one to organize who is stuck into paperoworks all day - gullyman
want one to hunt someone - russ
want one to intercept tresspassers - khan
want one to fight a guerilla war - corax
want one to obey, a soldier - Dorn
want one to win the populace - vulkan
want one to win the war - Lion
I d either take one who wins the hearts and keeps the basic human fighting > Vulkan
or have one to outmaneuver the enemy, to lead tactically > the Lion.
English Assassin wrote:None of them should come back, any more then the Emperor should. Their absence (and the myths surrounding their death/disappearance and prophesied return) are vital elements of the Warhammer universe's atmosphere and tone.
That's true, but this is meant to be from a unbiased knowledgeable Imperium citizens point of view.
Ah, I see what you mean. It's an interesting point to ponder - others have already pointed out the the actual return of one of the primarchs would likely result in civil war, since they would likely wish to (re?)claim powers arrogated by the High Lords and the Administratum.
I would imagine that most worlds in the Imperium might venerate a particular primarch, one associated with the reconquest of their world in the Great Crusade (provided, of course, that primarch had not been airbrushed from history after the heresy), or one whose legion or successor chapters had defended or recruited from that world, so first and foremost I would expect the average citizen's opinion to depend upon conditional factors like those.
In terms of the primarchs' characters, Guilliman and Vulkan strike me as the most down-to-earth of the primarchs (Vulkan seems actually to be a man of the people, Guilliman at least notably cares about them), whereas the rest are either aloof (Corax, The Lion, Dorn) or uncivilised (Khan, Russ), but it's not an easy judgement to make, since their characterisation in the game's background and fiction is rather less than consistent.
Ranked in order:
Guilliman... this is basically his Imperium already, having him back may bring the rest of the Imperium up to Ultramar's standards. Plus, he's the only Primarch who is physically still in the Imperium (albeit probably dead).
Vulkan... man of the people, and all that, but I'm not sure how good of an administrator he is. Plus, I'm convinced he got utterly gibbed at Istvaan, so there is nothing to come back.
Dorn... another favored son of the Emperor who didn't fall far from the tree. Only reason I don't put him above Vulkan is that towards the end he seemed really disillusioned with the shape the post-Heresy Imperium would take (I'm certain he undertook his last mission fully intent on dying). If he were somehow resurrected, he may be too morose/morbid/gloomy to accomplish much.
Corax... kind of a peripheral character, but apparently the worlds he left behind were in good shape, so why not?
The Lion... too self-involved, utterly lacks charisma or the ability to read people. would make a horrible leader who is either easily manipulated or horrendously paranoid.
Khan/Russ... basically the same guy, except one smells of a stable and the other of wet dog. Both primitive screwheads.
Vulcna wasn't an administrator, he was a blacksmith/inventor (created the prototype for the ironclad). Which is why he would probably be able to help bring the Imperium out of its severe technological slump.
Guilliman may be a pompous douchebag, but the Imperium is largely the way it is because of him, which means I don't think that there would be as much of a power schism, and he was legitimately brilliant, and could actually improve the well-being of the Imperium if he became active.
From a narrative standpoint though, none should come back.
Lion: Because his lideship can help overstretch Imperial army's.
Guiliman: Because his new reforms will make the Imperium stronger.
Dorn: Because his lidership can take us out of crysis.
But I agree with Void_Dragon - if Primarch ( even 1 ) returned it would tip the balance toward Imperium and they would start wining the war ( and that is the last thing people want ).
Brother Coa wrote:But I agree with Void_Dragon - if Primarch ( even 1 ) returned it would tip the balance toward Imperium and they would start wining the war ( and that is the last thing people want ).
I don't know about that.
Primarchs are powerful, but they are not invincible.
And remember that the forces of Chaos have Primarchs among them as well, and these Primarchs have been elevated to Daemon Princes.
Brother Coa wrote:But I agree with Void_Dragon - if Primarch ( even 1 ) returned it would tip the balance toward Imperium and they would start wining the war ( and that is the last thing people want ).
I don't know about that.
Primarchs are powerful, but they are not invincible.
And remember that the forces of Chaos have Primarchs among them as well, and these Primarchs have been elevated to Daemon Princes.
Those Primarchs are much-less brain dead now.
And Emperor was not invincible to, even so he did a LOT for the galaxy.
If even one of them return he would organised the Imperial forces. Adn not to mention that they would start targeting xenoleaders and strongholds...
I am not saying now that if Leman Russ returns he would tear apart entire Tau empire... but he would heavily fortify Imperial Worlds around it and daily launch harass operations toward their less defended colonies. He would gaiter all the Wolves under one banner and start going on small crusades around the galaxy ( like BT, only bigger ).
Guiliman would so organised the Imperium that Imperium would have better results in the end with fewer cassulties and better results in killing their enemies.
In either way - Imperium would start to win. Not at first, but after 250 - 700 years sure... And Primarchs are only 1 level beneath the Emperor himself, they are pretty hard to kill to.
The thing is if even 1 primarch came back in all likelihood all the imperium would gather under his banner, and the deal with the renegade ones is they still fight eachother if they all recognized 1 as their leader they would crush the imperium..
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Void__Dragon wrote:Guilliman may be a pompous douchebag, but the Imperium is largely the way it is because of him, which means I don't think that there would be as much of a power schism, and he was legitimately brilliant, and could actually improve the well-being of the Imperium if he became active.
From a narrative standpoint though, none should come back.
Ok so your openly admitting that we can all point fingers at Girlyman and finally blame him for the Imperium being in the hole it has been in for 10k years. Cool raid ultramar and burn it with Girlyman on it!
Oh and I would like to add that the Warmaster when he was good thought that Dorn should be the Warmaster because he thought he was the most fit for the job, so in my mine go Rogal Dorn, (strategist, noble, charismatic, warrior, and selfless) sounds like the imperium could use another leader like that if you ask me.
Cain wrote:Ok so your openly admitting that we can all point fingers at Girlyman and finally blame him for the Imperium being in the hole it has been in for 10k years. Cool raid ultramar and burn it with Girlyman on it!
Oh and I would like to add that the Warmaster when he was good thought that Dorn should be the Warmaster because he thought he was the most fit for the job, so in my mine go Rogal Dorn, (strategist, noble, charismatic, warrior, and selfless) sounds like the imperium could use another leader like that if you ask me.
As bad as the Imperium is, it could be much worse, if not for Guilliman.
Horus looked up to both Dorn and Guilliman, actually.
Lion: Because his lideship can help overstretch Imperial army's.
This comment confuses me. Isn't overstretching one's army a bad thing? And what leadership? The only thing the Lion had going for him was his status of trans-human. He had no charisma, was completely incapable of reading people, and couldn't even hold the Caliban monastic orders together without Luther's help. His reign would just be a series of civil wars.
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Cain wrote:Ok so your openly admitting that we can all point fingers at Girlyman and finally blame him for the Imperium being in the hole it has been in for 10k years. Cool raid ultramar and burn it with Girlyman on it!
Oh and I would like to add that the Warmaster when he was good thought that Dorn should be the Warmaster because he thought he was the most fit for the job, so in my mine go Rogal Dorn, (strategist, noble, charismatic, warrior, and selfless) sounds like the imperium could use another leader like that if you ask me.
Given that the alternative was another Age of Strife, Guilliman did alright. His realm is the only part of the Imperium that is not a smoggy hell-hole.
You also need to re-read your fluff, it was Sanguinius that Horus thought should have been the Warmaster. And it was Dorn (and the Sigilite) who established the Inquisition and the Imperium's policy of violently suppressing the truth, so pretty much everything you've said is completely bonkers.
Guillimane is the top canidate. He was a tactical genius and could do well all over.
Vulkan returning, old and battle-hardened, would be more of a morale booster.
Lion: Because his lideship can help overstretch Imperial army's.
This comment confuses me. Isn't overstretching one's army a bad thing? And what leadership? The only thing the Lion had going for him was his status of trans-human. He had no charisma, was completely incapable of reading people, and couldn't even hold the Caliban monastic orders together without Luther's help. His reign would just be a series of civil wars.
I meant: "His leadership can help already stretched Imperial Army's to better organize and fight."
Void__Dragon wrote:Guilliman may be a pompous douchebag, but the Imperium is largely the way it is because of him, which means I don't think that there would be as much of a power schism, and he was legitimately brilliant, and could actually improve the well-being of the Imperium if he became active.
From a narrative standpoint though, none should come back.
Ok so your openly admitting that we can all point fingers at Girlyman and finally blame him for the Imperium being in the hole it has been in for 10k years. Cool raid ultramar and burn it with Girlyman on it!
Oh and I would like to add that the Warmaster when he was good thought that Dorn should be the Warmaster because he thought he was the most fit for the job, so in my mine go Rogal Dorn, (strategist, noble, charismatic, warrior, and selfless) sounds like the imperium could use another leader like that if you ask me.
Without Guilliman, the Impeirum would have broken, entering another Age of Strife. He, and his Legion, due to his administrative capabilities, numbers and training program were able to stop the Imperium from fracturing.
The Warmaster believed Sanguinus to be the most capable. Dorn is utterly without ambition. He's a soldier that follows orders more than anything else, and has little in the way of charisma. The Imperium needs a leader, a hero, that can win the hearts of the people, lead them to a better future. Sanguinus or Guilliman are the two obvious choices, although both have their disadvantages.
Glad to see the Lion is ranked pretty high. After all it is more then plausible he could awake from his coma. I would be happy with anyone of them coming back so long as it isn't the Russ. I hate his fluff. Vulkan would be awesome as well and more then possible fluff wise.
Well.. we do have a black president in the US, so we could have a black Primarch leading the imperium.....
I jest a bit, but that's always been the Salamanders problem: they're arguably the most compassionate of the Astartes chapters, the chapter most willing to work with and for the average citizen, but it's coupled with the fact that they have jet black skin and demon red eyes. There's a reason Kennedy won the televised debates against Nixon, and it wasn't because of his strong political viewpoint.
I think the Lion would be a poor political leader; he's a warrior, a knight, not a politician or strategist. Guilliman is probably the best choice because of his administrative talent and ability to look at every situation.
However, I present that Leman Russ may actually be the best option. He's a charismatic leader for whom everyone that contacts him is fiercly loyal. His role in the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy forced him to be an utter pragmatist. Further, we're made to believe he may be one of the most intelligent of all the Primarchs (even Magnus allows this notion), despite that fact being undermined by his mask of savagery.
In the event that something did happen, and the Primarchs did return, it would probably be in the best interest for Vulkan to help the Mechanicum out on Mars, for Guilliman to run the Council of Terra, and for either Russ or the Lion to lead the armies.
But to be honest I would love to see another Chapters Master come the forefront in the next edition. One from the successer chapters or something. It would be nice for GW to move forward. i would love to see maybe the chapter master from a chapter such as the Novamarines or Doom Eagles or something similar of the sort become as prominent a figure in the current editon of the game as the primarchs are.
So you're looking for a non-Big 18 Chapter Master coming forward? Hmm. I like that notion, but what present options do we have?
There are a fair amount of dudes in the Badab War, but I dunno how many of them are still alive. I think what I'm about to say could be construed as heresy, but a Blood Ravens Librarian Chapter Master could be a good pick. Having a powerful psyker as the leader has some precedent...
cincydooley wrote:So you're looking for a non-Big 18 Chapter Master coming forward? Hmm. I like that notion, but what present options do we have?
There are a fair amount of dudes in the Badab War, but I dunno how many of them are still alive. I think what I'm about to say could be construed as heresy, but a Blood Ravens Librarian Chapter Master could be a good pick. Having a powerful psyker as the leader has some precedent...
That would be great. Really any Chapter Master from any of the other successor chapters would be a great move forward for GW I think. They did bring Huron Blackheart out as a new character in the last Chaos codex so it is more then possible......
cincydooley wrote:Well.. we do have a black president in the US, so we could have a black Primarch leading the imperium.....
I jest a bit, but that's always been the Salamanders problem: they're arguably the most compassionate of the Astartes chapters, the chapter most willing to work with and for the average citizen, but it's coupled with the fact that they have jet black skin and demon red eyes. There's a reason Kennedy won the televised debates against Nixon, and it wasn't because of his strong political viewpoint.
Very good point, and one that I don't believe has been considered yet. The Salamanders should move from Noctorne, at least after they become marines.
I think the Lion would be a poor political leader; he's a warrior, a knight, not a politician or strategist. Guilliman is probably the best choice because of his administrative talent and ability to look at every situation.
The Lion is the primary strategist of the Primarchs, that was his strong-point. Horrible politician compared to Guilliman as he couldn't read or interact with people that well.
However, I present that Leman Russ may actually be the best option. He's a charismatic leader for whom everyone that contacts him is fiercly loyal. His role in the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy forced him to be an utter pragmatist. Further, we're made to believe he may be one of the most intelligent of all the Primarchs (even Magnus allows this notion), despite that fact being undermined by his mask of savagery.
I disagree completely. Lacking any sort of charisma, those who have contact with him are fearful due to his savagery. He was far from being one of the most intelligent Primarch, nothing really displays that, just that he was rash and arrogant. I would like you to give me the source and quotation for when Magnus says this.
In the event that something did happen, and the Primarchs did return, it would probably be in the best interest for Vulkan to help the Mechanicum out on Mars, for Guilliman to run the Council of Terra, and for either Russ or the Lion to lead the armies.
Agreed. The Lion as the Commander, although he needs a Luther-esque side-kick.
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ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They're all alive. Three of the Four have actually done something, Angron being the only one who still fights the Old War.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They are still active in universe.
Angron was responsable for the First War for Armageddon,
Magnus is trying to fix Arhiman's mess up,
Mortarion is trying to clean the Draigo cooties off his body,
Fulgrim is chillin in his own private fest and has no reason to come out.
so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else.
Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion.
mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine.
Fulgrim is still in his sword.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They are still active in universe.
Angron was responsable for the First War for Armageddon,
Magnus is trying to fix Arhiman's mess up,
Mortarion is trying to clean the Draigo cooties off his body,
Fulgrim is chillin in his own private fest and has no reason to come out.
so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else. Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion. mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine. Fulgrim is still in his sword.
Angron is responsible for countless billions of deaths at Armageddon, and still operates when he can, causing mass destruction every time. Magnus stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed, which would allow for the creation of countless more Space Marines. He is currently fixated on fixing Ahriman's mistake, after stopping the ritual in the first place. Mortarion was beaten by Draigo, which considering there are other stories of Grey Knights doing something similar, it isn't too ridiculous. He resides on his own Plague Planet, quite happy. Fulgrim is now enjoying himself in the presence of Slannesh. The true Primarch, the Pheonician, is trapped inside his own body.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They are still active in universe.
Angron was responsable for the First War for Armageddon,
Magnus is trying to fix Arhiman's mess up,
Mortarion is trying to clean the Draigo cooties off his body,
Fulgrim is chillin in his own private fest and has no reason to come out.
so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else.
Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion.
mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine.
Fulgrim is still in his sword.
Angron is responsible for countless billions of deaths at Armageddon, and still operates when he can, causing mass destruction every time.
Magnus stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed, which would allow for the creation of countless more Space Marines. He is currently fixated on fixing Ahriman's mistake, after stopping the ritual in the first place.
Mortarion was beaten by Draigo, which considering there are other stories of Grey Knights doing something similar, it isn't too ridiculous. He resides on his own Plague Planet, quite happy.
Fulgrim is now enjoying himself in the presence of Slannesh. The true Primarch, the Pheonician, is trapped inside his own body.
Lol have you met the imperium? countless billions means nothing.
Magnus is messing about. doing very little to affect the imperium.
And Mortarion and Fulgrim are both useless.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They are still active in universe.
Angron was responsable for the First War for Armageddon,
Magnus is trying to fix Arhiman's mess up,
Mortarion is trying to clean the Draigo cooties off his body,
Fulgrim is chillin in his own private fest and has no reason to come out.
so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else.
Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion.
mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine.
Fulgrim is still in his sword.
Angron is responsible for countless billions of deaths at Armageddon, and still operates when he can, causing mass destruction every time.
Magnus stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed, which would allow for the creation of countless more Space Marines. He is currently fixated on fixing Ahriman's mistake, after stopping the ritual in the first place.
Mortarion was beaten by Draigo, which considering there are other stories of Grey Knights doing something similar, it isn't too ridiculous. He resides on his own Plague Planet, quite happy.
Fulgrim is now enjoying himself in the presence of Slannesh. The true Primarch, the Pheonician, is trapped inside his own body.
Lol have you met the imperium? countless billions means nothing.
Magnus is messing about. doing very little to affect the imperium.
And Mortarion and Fulgrim are both useless.
Erm, ravaging whole systems, including one of the Imperium's primary manufacturing and Hive Worlds, killing about 100 Grey Knights and almost every citizen that could have had any sort of contact with anything Daemonic, that includes many people down the line of contact, and causing the exterminatus of many planets is a pretty big deal. In fact, it's a massive deal.
Magnus could affect the Imperium a lot by curing his Legion's ailment.
Mortarion and Flugrim aren't useless, just not doing anything, like every other Daemon Prince.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They are still active in universe.
Angron was responsable for the First War for Armageddon,
Magnus is trying to fix Arhiman's mess up,
Mortarion is trying to clean the Draigo cooties off his body,
Fulgrim is chillin in his own private fest and has no reason to come out.
so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else.
Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion.
mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine.
Fulgrim is still in his sword.
Angron is responsible for countless billions of deaths at Armageddon, and still operates when he can, causing mass destruction every time.
Magnus stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed, which would allow for the creation of countless more Space Marines. He is currently fixated on fixing Ahriman's mistake, after stopping the ritual in the first place.
Mortarion was beaten by Draigo, which considering there are other stories of Grey Knights doing something similar, it isn't too ridiculous. He resides on his own Plague Planet, quite happy.
Fulgrim is now enjoying himself in the presence of Slannesh. The true Primarch, the Pheonician, is trapped inside his own body.
Lol have you met the imperium? countless billions means nothing.
Magnus is messing about. doing very little to affect the imperium.
And Mortarion and Fulgrim are both useless.
Erm, ravaging whole systems, including one of the Imperium's primary manufacturing and Hive Worlds, killing about 100 Grey Knights and almost every citizen that could have had any sort of contact with anything Daemonic, that includes many people down the line of contact, and causing the exterminatus of many planets is a pretty big deal. In fact, it's a massive deal.
Magnus could affect the Imperium a lot by curing his Legion's ailment.
Mortarion and Flugrim aren't useless, just not doing anything, like every other Daemon Prince.
Which systems? how many planets? as if hes special compared to the number of threats the Imperium faces. oh no he killed 100 guys no one knows about. its the END!!
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim and Mortarion should come back. That would move the 40k timeline along.
They are still active in universe.
Angron was responsable for the First War for Armageddon,
Magnus is trying to fix Arhiman's mess up,
Mortarion is trying to clean the Draigo cooties off his body,
Fulgrim is chillin in his own private fest and has no reason to come out.
so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else. Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion. mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine. Fulgrim is still in his sword.
Angron is responsible for countless billions of deaths at Armageddon, and still operates when he can, causing mass destruction every time. Magnus stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed, which would allow for the creation of countless more Space Marines. He is currently fixated on fixing Ahriman's mistake, after stopping the ritual in the first place. Mortarion was beaten by Draigo, which considering there are other stories of Grey Knights doing something similar, it isn't too ridiculous. He resides on his own Plague Planet, quite happy. Fulgrim is now enjoying himself in the presence of Slannesh. The true Primarch, the Pheonician, is trapped inside his own body.
Lol have you met the imperium? countless billions means nothing. Magnus is messing about. doing very little to affect the imperium. And Mortarion and Fulgrim are both useless.
Erm, ravaging whole systems, including one of the Imperium's primary manufacturing and Hive Worlds, killing about 100 Grey Knights and almost every citizen that could have had any sort of contact with anything Daemonic, that includes many people down the line of contact, and causing the exterminatus of many planets is a pretty big deal. In fact, it's a massive deal. Magnus could affect the Imperium a lot by curing his Legion's ailment. Mortarion and Flugrim aren't useless, just not doing anything, like every other Daemon Prince.
Which systems? how many planets? as if hes special compared to the number of threats the Imperium faces. oh no he killed 100 guys no one knows about. its the END!!
Read up on the Dominion of Fire. Seventy sectors were ravaged. Seventy sectors. I never said he was a special threat compared to the others, I am saying that he isn't a write off failure like you seem to believe. Those 100 guys were Grey Knights, you do realise? In Terminator armour. 1 in a million become a Grey Knight, they're a valuable and crucial resource.
How is Magnus supposed to be able to "fix" a legion of automatons? He would have to create a spell that could give them their bodies again. Then he would have to recreate the geneseed.
It's magic. Literally. Don't talk about probability in the context of the Warp. If a spell can be devised that traps the souls of a person in a suit of armour, maintaining the ability to move around without any flesh parts, then this is within the realm of possibility.
iproxtaco wrote:
Magnus stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed, which would allow for the creation of countless more Space Marines. He is currently fixated on fixing Ahriman's mistake, after stopping the ritual in the first place.
I'm not sure that's such a bad thing because if you get rid of the curse of the Canis Helix, you also get rid of everything that makes them Space Wolves. So they would have just been grey Ultrmarines because you can't really have the advantages (acute hearing, smell and sight) without the disadvantage.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:so Angron was responsible for a cluster **** and little else.
Magnus is so useless he doesnt know how to fix his robot legion.
mortarion got gang signs carved on him by a marine.
Fulgrim is still in his sword.
It took off the top of my memory 700 years to reclaim 90% of the territory the Imperium lost to Angron.
Without Magnus, there would be no Thousand Sons Legion, if he had not dispelled the Rubric, they would have died. And fixing the Rubric is not exactly easy. He also, as iproxtaco said, stopped the Space Wolves from fixing their geneseed.
Mortarion admittedly isn't doing much, nor Fulgrim. In the Materium. However, they do wage wars in the Warp for their respective Chaos Gods.
cincydooley wrote:In the event that something did happen, and the Primarchs did return, it would probably be in the best interest for Vulkan to help the Mechanicum out on Mars, for Guilliman to run the Council of Terra, and for either Russ or the Lion to lead the armies.
By all accounts, Russ was a pretty terrible general, letting his ego and emotions get the better of his judgement on many occasions. From what I've read, his tactical acumen didn't extend very far past "charge". The Lion would probably be good as an overall strategist or logistician, given that whole "living computer" thing he had going on.
And just for the record, Ahriman did not make a mistake. He stopped the rampant plague of mutations that was ravaging the Legion, and strengthened the survivors.... just as Tzeench intended (at least the latter portion... since the begetting of the Thousand Sons, he has been periodically culling them to isolate the strongest and most powerful psykers). And the Rubric would not have "destroyed" the Thousand Sons, the side-effect of the spell caused a cataclysmic storm that was messing up the planet. I honestly don't know where this "Magnus is trying to fix Ahriman's mistake" stuff is coming from, he was told explicitly by Tzeench that Ahriman was following The Plan (TM), and last we heard from him, he was brooding in his tower.
Omegus wrote:And just for the record, Ahriman did not make a mistake. He stopped the rampant plague of mutations that was ravaging the Legion, and strengthened the survivors.... just as Tzeench intended (at least the latter portion... since the begetting of the Thousand Sons, he has been periodically culling them to isolate the strongest and most powerful psykers). And the Rubric would not have "destroyed" the Thousand Sons, the side-effect of the spell caused a cataclysmic storm that was messing up the planet. I honestly don't know where this "Magnus is trying to fix Ahriman's mistake" stuff is coming from, he was told explicitly by Tzeench that Ahriman was following The Plan (TM), and last we heard from him, he was brooding in his tower.
You're actually right, I don't know where I, or anyone, got the idea that Magnus was trying to fix the Rubric.
Omegus wrote:And just for the record, Ahriman did not make a mistake. He stopped the rampant plague of mutations that was ravaging the Legion, and strengthened the survivors.... just as Tzeench intended (at least the latter portion... since the begetting of the Thousand Sons, he has been periodically culling them to isolate the strongest and most powerful psykers). And the Rubric would not have "destroyed" the Thousand Sons, the side-effect of the spell caused a cataclysmic storm that was messing up the planet. I honestly don't know where this "Magnus is trying to fix Ahriman's mistake" stuff is coming from, he was told explicitly by Tzeench that Ahriman was following The Plan (TM), and last we heard from him, he was brooding in his tower.
You're actually right, I don't know where I, or anyone, got the idea that Magnus was trying to fix the Rubric.
Magnus is only trying to fix the Rubric because he believed it destroyed his Legion. To Ahriman however, it was a necessary sacrifice to save the legion from the mutations that plagued them before they found their Primarch. In my mind, I think Magnus is still slightly naive. He thought that he could save his legion by dealing with the powers of the warp, and out smarting them. But in truth, warp out smarts you!
As for which Primarch should come back? I would love for all of them to come back but I know that's just a fan boy dream. Of the ones who aren't dead, I'd have to say either Guilliman (because of his administrative and organizational abilities), Vulkan (primarch for the people, although he might come to blows with the Inquisition), and Corax (because there isn't much raven guard fluff).
The Lion is a little detached, in a way, the opposite of Vulkan, living in the wilds of Caliban on your own doesn't really breed good people skills.
Khan and Russ I think would be the best for a Crusade. Mongol culture (which the white scars are partially based upon) isn't really keen on settling down and building empires, they are a roaming people. As for Russ, well I think he would in fact be a little rebellious against the current Imperium. As much as he is a "lap dog", he only listens to the Emperor. Sure the high lords of terra are an extension of the Emperor's will, I don't think Russ will particularily enjoy listening to people that aren't his father. But who knows, GW could prove me wrong. and going with that same train of thought, Russ would just continue the crusades and wipe out his enemies.
Also read the fluff Horus did respect Dorn and think he would make a good warmaster yes he would pick sangunius first but Dorn was right there giving advice to Horus on a regular basis and Horus needed it and he knew it.
But what you said was wrong. He would have picked Sanguinus, not Dorn. He trusted only a few of his brothers, Dorn was one of them, one of the few that were truly supportive of him being appointed warmaster.
Wouldn't the return of the Russ or perhaps even Corax also mean the restoration of Big-E?
Any of the loyal returning Primarchs could demand and most likely get audiences with Big-E. I do not think the High Lords would be all that happy about that, but what could they do?
The Khan. The Russ and perhaps even Corax may get along with the High Lords well. They would be all like: 'What needs killin?' and the High Lords would be all like: 'This, that and whatevah you feel like. What toys can we get for you?'
Gullimen, The Lion and Vulkan would most likely want to change the IoM to varying degrees and that may not make the High Lords happy.
What the hell ever, Magnus is NOT trying to fix the Rubric, that's just your imagination until you can come up with a citation. He was angry about it, sure, but Tzeench brought him to heel about it. Magnus was perfectly willing to bleed his Legion dry just to stop the Space Wolves from spawning successor chapters. And the only reason Magnus was "outsmarted" by the Warp is because the Emperor had zero foresight and no faith in his children, otherwise he could have prepared them for the Chaos powers and avoided the whole Heresy. i.e. Emperor was the biggest dumbass in history.
Vulkan is dead. He got tagged in the face by the same artillery that brought down the walls of the Imperial Palace. Sallies and their fans just love their wishful thinking.
Omegus wrote:Vulkan is dead. He got tagged in the face by the same artillery that brought down the walls of the Imperial Palace. Sallies and their fans just love their wishful thinking.
I don't know where people keep getting the notion that Vulkan is dead. He opposed the Codex, which occured distinctly after the heresy, then hid all of his artifacts a few hundred years later. Then peaced. That's the whole point of the Chapter collecting his artifacts.
Anyways, my vote is for Vulkan. Not solely because I'm a Sallies fan, but what fluff exists about the Sallies and their primarch states that they're very much a force that fights for the Imperium, not for glory or conquest, but to genuinely defend the Imperium and its citizens. Vulkan might not lead some kind of epic crusade, especially single handed, but he'd certainly be able to alter the Imperium in a positive way.
Though my second place vote lies with the Lion. Pretty decent guy, a little shady, but can lead a crusade.
Not in any of the Horus Heresy books. He disappeared in a huge explosion, so his end isn't revealed barring his appearances a few years later. Considering Horus was trapped in a collapsing Star-ship and Fulgrim beat down an Avatar with his bear hands, his survival is pretty likely.
cincydooley wrote: I think what I'm about to say could be construed as heresy, but a Blood Ravens Librarian Chapter Master could be a good pick. Having a powerful psyker as the leader has some precedent...
Well quite literly since pre DoW Reribution theire Chapter Master WAS a Heretic. Now everything is cleaned upp and Gabriel is there Chapter master... A non psyker as far as im aware...
In my opinion Russ should come back. in Prospero burns it states that all of the primarchs fulfill a purpose Russ was the executioner designed to penalise and/or kill the other primarchs. if he were to come back (in my opinion) he would be one of the few 'people' who would have anny chance of defeating the daemon primarchs, abadon, tyranid leaders etc.
of cource i am bias due to my love of all things to do with Vylka Fenryka
huntho21 wrote:In my opinion Russ should come back. in Prospero burns it states that all of the primarchs fulfill a purpose Russ was the executioner designed to penalise and/or kill the other primarchs. if he were to come back (in my opinion) he would be one of the few 'people' who would have anny chance of defeating the daemon primarchs, abadon, tyranid leaders etc.
of cource i am bias due to my love of all things to do with Vylka Fenryka
huntho21 wrote:In my opinion Russ should come back. in Prospero burns it states that all of the primarchs fulfill a purpose Russ was the executioner designed to penalise and/or kill the other primarchs.
No, it doesn't "state" that. It is an opinion put forth by an old Space Wolf who is trying to impress their pet human. Hardly a statement of fact.
Id like to see Russ come back...As a Daemon prince of Khorne and see how his wolves deal with that one. Honestly though none of the loyalist primarchs should show up again but I really wish they would do more with the traitors. they dont have to show up often but its cool when angron showed up at armageddon why cant he others pop in once and a while to say hello?
Guilliman would be the best for the Imperium. He has once already led the Imperium for a brief time, and it would be much easier for him to reassume control. Most of the Space Marine Chapters are of his line, afterall. I also believe he has most appropriate skill set of all the primarchs that are able to return.
Guilliman did alright running the whole show once, he'd be a good choice to do it again.
2 things:
A) I can't see the Lords of Terra working well with any primarch that returns
B) A primarch is going to see heresy everywhere in the rise of the Imperial Cult to the current Ecclesiarchy
I think that if the Ultramarines primarch came back he would immediately demand control over the Imperium. The thing is the Imperium is way too much of a Cult of the Emperor that they would do so. Civil war would break out as the Ultras are pretty arrogant and don't like to play second fiddle to anyone(including each other). As for the Lion, he could come back but I don't think he would make a play for the top job; he just does not like the Imperium enough to care. The other loyal Primarchs have so far not shown enough to suggest that they could lead empires. The ironic thing is that the only one who could possibly do it would be Magnus...
Guilliman would not demand control, he's not stupid. He didn't demand control the last time.
The Ultramarines are not arrogant.
The Lion would definitely demand some high up position, power is what he wants, but he's still loyal to the Imperium.
Magnus? That's funny. He has a massive ego and is concerned more with gathering knowledge than leading an empire.
Guilliman as he is the only one that can figure out this whole mess that we call the Imperium. All the worlds that he conquered during the great crusade were made to be self suffucient productive members of the Imperium. They are still held as an example 10,000 years later. All the other primarchs were either just wardogs that destroyed or were flawed in some way that lead to their fall.
I kinda have to echo what I see as a kinda concensus. Of all the primarchs to come back, Guilliman is probably best for the imperium.
Vulkan could help with technology, but that might lead to a war with the Adeptus Mechanicus, who use their control on technology as a way to influence the empire, might see him as a threat. Though the tossing down of the AM might not be the worst thing...though it would probably weaken the Imperium to a point of doom.
Slipstream wrote:I think that if the Ultramarines primarch came back he would immediately demand control over the Imperium. The thing is the Imperium is way too much of a Cult of the Emperor that they would do so. Civil war would break out as the Ultras are pretty arrogant and don't like to play second fiddle to anyone(including each other). As for the Lion, he could come back but I don't think he would make a play for the top job; he just does not like the Imperium enough to care. The other loyal Primarchs have so far not shown enough to suggest that they could lead empires. The ironic thing is that the only one who could possibly do it would be Magnus...
Really? He doesn't care? He certainly cared enough for the distinction of "Warmaster" to be making political deals to be the next one while the heresy was still in full bloom.
As much as I like Magnus, his ideals would lead the Empire to ruin. The pursuit of knowledge is squashed for a reason, the majority of humanity, or Astartes for that matter, simply aren't capable of handling it. Many of his sons were arrogant and cavalier about their powers to an idiotic extreme. The ones that had a good head on their shoulders and were cautious, Magnus either murdered or alienated.
fest and has no reason to come out.
And where, pray tell, did you get that from?