The emperor of humanity created 20 Primarchs and they got separated through the powers of chaos, this much i know but
1) Couldn't the missing legions be because the emperor could not find two primarchs at all
2) And with nobody to lead the legions, the legions just disbanded.
(I know this may make me sound like an idiot but i was wondering to myself if it was actually possible)
We know that the two missing Primarchs did something bad enough to be stricken from all records (IDK what, but they did come back to the Imperium)
If you destroy the Blood Ravens as Chaos in DoWC, you learn Abbadon likes knowing the Blood Ravens were harmed (AND Eliphas was talking about the Blood Raven's secret the whole mission)
So I believe that the Blood Ravens were one of the Founding Legions, Betrayed the Imperium, but redeemed themselves.
Well, GW now has 2 legions that they can magically (hopefully without Matt Ward) bring back form the dead to either serve chaos or the Emperor, and I'd say if they ever run out of fluff, well here you go! 2 more fresh legions to color however they want, kinda like a back up plan
SSsilverskullSS wrote:1) Couldn't the missing legions be because the emperor could not find two primarchs at all
It's been mentioned in the fluff previously that all 20 Primarchs were found, and that the 2 'unkown' Legions fought at least at the start of the Heresy, although that last bit seems to have been retconned by the Horus Heresy books.
2) And with nobody to lead the legions, the legions just disbanded.
That doesn't really seem like much of a reason to strike them completely from Imperial records.
To my mind, the most likely explanation has always been that they rebelled and were stricken from records because they were completely wiped out. The same would have happened to the other Traitor Legions if they had been similarly wiped out following the Heresy.
Games Workshop is mysteriously silent on the issue.
The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters. To that end, I'm of the opinion that one of them went rogue (and was destroyed) while the other was loyal. (And still destroyed. Possibly by the rogue legion?) Either way, they were removed from all Imperial records. They are alluded to in several of the Horus Heresy books, although nothing concrete is really mentioned. (Although I haven't read Prospero Burns or the Space Wolf one yet...)
Jimsolo wrote:The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.
That's been an oft'floated reason for it, but frankly, I've never been a fan of the idea. If the intention is for those Legions to still be running around, it doesn't make sense for them to be removed from records.
IMO, they're just supposed to be an interesting footnote in the fluff, rather than something specifically intended for players to adapt.
It would only really make sense for them to be usable by players if the game was actually set in the Horus Heresy period.
Jimsolo wrote:Games Workshop is mysteriously silent on the issue.
The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.
That was true BEFORE the Horus Heresy novel series. It has been made very clear that both legions were 'dealt with' long before the heresy and very early on in the crusade. GW has removed all doubt of their fates.
To that end, I'm of the opinion that one of them went rogue (and was destroyed) while the other was loyal. (And still destroyed. Possibly by the rogue legion?) Either way, they were removed from all Imperial records. They are alluded to in several of the Horus Heresy books, although nothing concrete is really mentioned. (Although I haven't read Prospero Burns or the Space Wolf one yet...)
First, read Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. The fates of the two legions are clearly sealed well before the Heresy. One was destroyed by the SW. The other, is a little more unclear but is described as 'lost'. The 'lost' legion wasn't totally lost however as it's survivors were absorbed into the UM. My theory is that their primarch was a-killed in action almost imediately b-not found/killed by the Emperor.
Spoiler:
It's also been made pretty clear that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Son's loyalist successors.
Jimsolo wrote:Games Workshop is mysteriously silent on the issue.
The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.
That was true BEFORE the Horus Heresy novel series. It has been made very clear that both legions were 'dealt with' long before the heresy and very early on in the crusade. GW has removed all doubt of their fates.
No, it wasn't.
It was NEVER true.
GW have said why there are two missing: To add mystery to the setting. They said it back in 2nd ed, they said it in 3rd ed, and they said it in 4th ed. It's probably the most asked question in the setting and has been addressed in White Dwarf multiple times, always with the same answer. It's so that you wonder what they did and why they're missing.
The reason people keep creating their own(and believing that's why they're missing) is that people(like nature) abhor a vacuum, so attempt to fill it in.
It's also been made pretty clear that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Son's loyalist successors.
It's not clear at all. There's a couple of comments in HH novels scattered around that people have jumped to conclusions over, but nothings been clearly stated.
It's also been made pretty clear that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Son's loyalist successors.
It's not clear at all. There's a couple of comments in HH novels scattered around that people have jumped to conclusions over, but nothings been clearly stated.
It's definitely not clear, as that doesn't explain why the Blood Ravens have a Blood Angel relic that the BA can't account for.
The Legions are there so fans can come up with their own stories and fluff behind them. GW leaves a lot of room for this, be it that there are "1,000 Space Marine Chapters", "Untold numbers of minor Craftworlds", "A million worlds in the Imperium" for Guard Regiments, Chaos Warbands fracturing from the legions, etc..
We'll probably never know what the deal was with them.
All that is known about the 2 missing legions is that they were striken from all records for some misdeed and every Astartes and Primarch took a vow of silence to never speak their names again.
in First Heretic, Magnus warns Lorgar that, if he continues down the road he is on, he risks his Legion being delt with just like the other 2 were. Striken from all records, destroyed, and never spoken of again.
My personal view is that the Primarchs organized a rebellion against the Emperor which the Space Wolves were able to crush singlehandedly. Then, the Emperor covered up the rebellion by everyone taking the vow of silence.
my question is this, what could they have done that is so incredibly deliciously naughty that both traitor and loyalist STILL have an interest in keeping the secret, the traitors having forsaken all vows to the emperor and being the troublemakers that they are.
purplefood wrote:They are secret in bad way not a good way...
As in "What you did was so bad we are gonna kill you all and then forget who you are"
but what!, it must have been something quite odd besides just rebelling for the traitors to still be keeping it under wraps
Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...
purplefood wrote:They are secret in bad way not a good way...
As in "What you did was so bad we are gonna kill you all and then forget who you are"
but what!, it must have been something quite odd besides just rebelling for the traitors to still be keeping it under wraps
Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...
purplefood wrote:Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...
Yeah, the Traitor Legions would gain nothing by spreading word of the lost Legions... even assuming anybody that they managed to communicate with actually believed them.
purplefood wrote:Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...
Yeah, the Traitor Legions would gain nothing by spreading word of the lost Legions... even assuming anybody that they managed to communicate with actually believed them.
but then, might they discuss it amongst themselves, I.E. it could be in CSM fluff?
The "stricken from the records" thing is a fairly poor excuse to begin with. The Imperium has absolutely no idea about the history of the Necrons for instance, yet we still know it. The story is mostly told from the Imperium perspective but we the audience still know far more then they do.
I remember in the Eisenhorn books Eisenhorn (an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor who thus has the most knowledge of aliens in the Imperium) didn't even know what an Eldar Aspect Warrior was. Imperial records wouldn't have information on most of the stuff that appears in codices.
I think it was in Prospero Burns that Leman Russ said "I've lost two brothers, I'll not lose a third" when talking about Magnus.
Makes me think something was wrong with the primarch(s) themselves rather than the legion. I thought one always had a genetic abnormaly which required it to be destroyed. The other I don't know.
The two lost legions are also referred to as 'The Lost' and 'The Cursed' on one of the HH books.
AFAIK, the current 'myth' is as follows.
- All 20 legions participated in the Crusade, so left Terra.
- Two Legions/Primarchs were lost and stricken from records BEFORE the Heresy started. Everyone is very sad about this.
- The Space Wolves allude to the fact that they've fought Astartes before the Heresy.
- The Ultramarines' ranks swelled soon after one of these Legions was disbanded.
IMO, this infers the folowing.
- At least one of the legions did something so bad that they were destroyed. Maybe the Primarch was a Chaos worshipping mutant? Maybe his corruption was much worse than even the Thousand Sons. ('The Cursed') On the other hand, maybe he hated the Imperium or rebelled. We know that Angron hated the Emperor at first, and resented him even after. I would guess that, if the Legion did something so bad as to be destroyed, they probably wouldn't join the Ultramarines too, so..
- If that legion was 'The Cursed', then could there be a Primarch that was merely 'Lost'. So, had left the galaxy, chose not to be part of the Imperium, or was simply dead by the time the Emperor found his landing point. If so, and his Legion (who would have been part of the Crusade, looking for him) hadn't actually done anything wrong, then it's likely they would have been 'folded' into another legion rather than allowed to carry on with no Primarch?
2) And with nobody to lead the legions, the legions just disbanded.
That doesn't really seem like much of a reason to strike them completely from Imperial records.
To my mind, the most likely explanation has always been that they rebelled and were stricken from records because they were completely wiped out. The same would have happened to the other Traitor Legions if they had been similarly wiped out following the Heresy.
When we consider that one legion was only absorbed rather than wiped out... I think this imply that whatever happened to the primarch of that Legion wasn't necessarily his fault or if it was something he did, it was so limited or unilaterally done the Legion was forgiven. As to why his legion would have all records of it whiped out, it may just have been either a symbolic act of unifcation of the Ultramarines and that legion, under a single banner... or if whatever the primarch did was severe enough it may have been to protect his legion from the animosity of the other legions.
I think purely from a story telling perspective there are few things this primarch may have done that are so extreme as to result in this type of expungement of records, without his legion necessarily branded as traitors and whiped out; insanity or mental illness, or suicide strike me as most poinent narrative.
From everything I have ever heard from GW, the two legions exist simply to leave room for DiY. One loyalist, one Traitor. And at this point, I think its a good block of information vacuum that blends perfectly with 40K vibe of burn, pillage and erase those you dont like.
In Prospero Burns, a conversation between Magnus, Russ and I believe Lorgar, Russ says that the "Thousand Sons reek of unholy and evil power. A power that were held by others." To which The other primarchs respond with the lines "Its nothing like them, and we are never to speak of them." I also felt later they alluded to pacts with "Evil powers" from beyond the mortal realm.
There was a small reference in there as well about the flesh warp being a tell tale of a need to cleanse the legion.
Also I believe it was arihaim or Magnus that told a remembrance that Russ intended to wipe all history of the ToS out. When the remembrancer said it was absurd to think you could wipe out a Legion, the Astarte affirmed that it could be done and alludes to it having been done.
So my guesses are that the 'Traitor' legion were even more rampant with sorcery and warp powers then the TS. The SW campaigned to remove both legions. Then the missing legion embraced the powers too deeply and were wiped out by the SW.
The other primarch i believe was mentioned in one of the first HH with horus. He was warped into a room of all of the vat baby primarch's and paused at one and thought of 'all of the glorious that were to never come to pass.' This gave me the feeling that the 'Loyalist' missing primarch had something tragic happen to him. Either genetically or due to external problems.
The story teller in me likes to believe That the two missing primarchs fate were linked. Like traitor primarch embraced chaos on a joint campaign between the two. Loyalist primarch calls him on it and gets killed. So then the SW get called to kill the chaos and expunge the two legions to bury the incident.
This would explain why the SW abhor warp powers, the tragic loss of one legion, the scornful loss of the other, the alludes to a chaos related death of one, why the SW have fought astartes before, and a perfect premise for a 'never speak of them' again. It was a traitor incident where the emperor could quash it and make all forget it ever happened.
The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.
The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)
Pilau Rice wrote:I put the Emperors abduction of Angron down to him not being able to afford losing any more of his sons.
Eh, I think the Emperor teleporting Angron to his ship instead of himself teleporting down with a herd of Astartes is the best sign that the Emperor either wanted the Heresy or that he's a blithering idiot. 'Sorry about leaving your friends to die, but now I've got to run. Ciao!'
About the missing two: I'm pretty sure that GW is just putting these mentions of them into the HH books as teasers, in much the same way that an action-adventure movie will suddenly show a T&A shot that has nothing to do with the plot. So I'd hesitate to read too much into what is in the books. That said, if one or both of the two missing legions had actually rebelled against the Imperium, you would think that one of the traitor legions would have brought that up by now. If for no other reason than to discus the tactics they used and what went wrong with their plan.
PrometheusZero wrote:The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.
The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)
More likely, I think it was the fact they couldn't cover the 9 Traitor Legions up and act like nothing happened. the 2 missing Legions were well and truly gone and couldn't come back to mass around. the Chaos Traitors are still muckin about and thats a hard thing to cover up.
Was warhammer fantasy not part of the 40k universe long ago? But they retconned it and seperated the 2 settings? I remember hearing somewhere that sigmar used to be a primarch. Landing in a twintailed comet (birthtube thing). Having superhuman strength etc.
Maybe Sigmar and the first great chaos lord in fantasy where primarchs. So gw first intended them to be primarchs and later they retconned the settings. Keeping the 2 lost primarch's lost just to keep them mysterious.
Jimsolo wrote:The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.
That's been an oft'floated reason for it, but frankly, I've never been a fan of the idea. If the intention is for those Legions to still be running around, it doesn't make sense for them to be removed from records.
There is also the thing that it makes little sence seeing as 40K fans would still be able to create DIY chapters without the missing legions. this is proved by the massive amout of DIY chapters that have no link to them
There is also the thing that it makes little sence seeing as 40K fans would still be able to create DIY chapters without the missing legions. this is proved by the massive amout of DIY chapters that have no link to them
Yes there could have been DiY chapters. But you couldnt have DiY Legions. The ability to deal with legions is a whole different level of customizing your fluff then a chapter. Also I know I feel more attached to the glories of a legion as opposed to a chapter. If I were to make up my own astartes, I would rather make a glorious legion then a splinter chapter. Thats just me though. So I am glad that GW left it open.
PrometheusZero wrote:
The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.
The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)
It is very unlikely that we will ever learn anything concrete about Legio II and XI - "the forgotten and the purged". Blank spaces in the background are a cheap and easy way to create suspense and a sense of mystery - both of which the setting needs more of not less. Unless the studio decide that filling-in those blanks would provide them with a way of selling more plastic soldiers, blank they will stay, with good reason.
PrometheusZero wrote:The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.
The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)
Yeah this is what I think, as the Legions were the Emperors creation only he can decide whether or not the can be removed/expunged from records. When the Emperor got put into his tank and was still talking there were other more important things to organise rather than sorting out paperwork. So they got declared Traitoris Majoris, I guess there would also need to be a record kept because they are still in action whereas the 2 missing legions don't exist at all anymore.
daveNYC wrote:
Eh, I think the Emperor teleporting Angron to his ship instead of himself teleporting down with a herd of Astartes is the best sign that the Emperor either wanted the Heresy or that he's a blithering idiot. 'Sorry about leaving your friends to die, but now I've got to run. Ciao!'
I think it's one of his moments showing that he is still fairly human. After Angron killed some of his Custodes and pretty much said 'screw you' it was a 'look sonny, i'm not taking any of your bullspit, i'm your dad and you do as I say whether you like it or not'. And thus Angrons resentment towards the Emperor was born. Everything he pretty much did was two fingers up too him from then on.
Yes, but two other physical mutants were used without any action from the Emperor. Maybe the two legions decided to become peaceful, so the Emperor killed them.
Much as I believe the mentions in the HH books are throw-away lines without much consideration behind them, it's still fun to try to piece things together.
Let's round up the clues, please let me know if I missed any or anything needs clarifying:
1. Both missing primarchs and their legions participated in the start of the crusade, and are expunged from history early on.
2. One is referred to as "The Lost" and the other "The Cursed"
3. The other primarchs knew and had some affinity for the missing primarchs
4. The fate of those legions is shrouded in mystery even to the other Astartes, hence the rumors/jokes about the Ultramarines absorbing part or all of a legion (which could actually be true, but it seems more like a joke or jealous rumor, as the Ultramarines legion always had a perfectly good fluff reason for being so large)
5. The Space Wolves in general and Russ in particular seem to have more knowledge than others, and seem confident in their abilities to fight other Astartes
6. The Thousand Sons and their actions are compared fairly explicitly to one of the missing legions
7. Any treason or Astartes-on-Astartes fighting regarding the two missing legions wouldn't be known to the majority of the other primarchs, as it is never mentioned even when planning their own Heresy, or during the fighting, or even after the Heresy by the traitor legions
8. The incident(s) had to be self-contained enough that the events could actually be kept secret, even if some of the hints leading up to it weren't - it's believable to say "they're gone, it was tragic, I can't tell you how, let's never speak of this again" rather than "well everyone saw/took part in these unprecedented dramatic events, but just try to forget it happened"
I think there are enough details here that a limited number of plausible scenarios can be constructed.
They came into contact with chaos and turned, but weren't spread out at the moment and were contained and slaughtered.
The cursed..
My guess would be that the "curse" would be some genetic defect that didn't show itself at the start of the crusade (or was somehow triggered by events) and pretty much killed them off. As for the Primarch... no clue, may have been the first to actually go down with the curse, or ran off crying.
The missing primarchs were not outright heretical or treasonous, and did not worship chaos, probably not even unknowingly. These things would all have been noticed by the Emperor and/or their brothers, and would all be relevant information to the traitor primarchs before or during the heresy, yet this is never mentioned (7). The loss of both legions was also probably fairly rapid, self-contained, and easy to cover up (4,8), indicating a few possibilities in my mind - loss in battle, loss in the warp, or destruction/disbandment at the Emperor's secret orders.
The fate of the two legions could be intertwined, but I find it unlikely and there is no evidence that would support this to my knowledge. "The Lost" was probably truly lost in some way, and "The Cursed" probably did suffer some fate outside their own control. If The Lost was destroyed by The Cursed, I doubt such a conflict could easily be hidden, and I doubt the other primarchs would more or less universally mourn the loss of both brothers (3).
The Lost legion, or most of it, could have disappeared in the warp near the start of the crusade. Or they could have been destroyed or nearly destroyed in battle by a powerful xenos force. Either way the loss was sudden, and the primarch was definitely killed, or else the legion would have been rebuilt. Any survivors could possibly have been folded into the Ultramarines.
The Cursed are compared to the Thousand Sons (6), and the Space Wolves seem knowledgeable about killing other Astartes, and unflinchingly attack the Thousand Sons when ordered (5). It is also discussed that the flesh-change would have been grounds for destroying Magnus's legion,so perhaps there is a precedent. Perhaps The Cursed legion exhibited increasingly bad genetic mutations, possibly with uncontrolled psychic powers appearing, that was grounds for wiping the legion out. Again, I doubt there was any treason or obvious chaos worship, since this would be notable during the Heresy, and since chaos and the corrupting power of the warp seems to be completely unheard of before the Heresy starts. The Cursed legion probably spiraled out of control rapidly, and the Wolves were dispatched to quickly and quietly eradicate their existence.
None of this is really new stuff, I think other people have mentioned all of this. I'm just trying to be comprehensive. The only real twist I want to add is this: these events would be kept secret, and all records expunged, not because something naughty happened, but because the myth of invincibility was very important to the legions. Although the Astartes and especially the Primarchs have some knowledge of the missing legions, regular humans seem to have no idea at all that there were 2 other primarchs, or that legions could be destroyed. It's probably vitally important for the morale of the Imperium in general that the legions are always shown to be unstoppable, and only propaganda-like details of their exploits are publicized. Think of how hard it must be to sustain a war effort tasked with conquering the whole friggin' galaxy. The minute your armies stop steam-rollering their enemies and humanity's best warriors actually lose, public support could easily waver.
The missing two legions add up to the number 13... not to mention the Ultramarines, rumoured to have absorbed at least one of them, is the 13th legion.
Interesting, considering the fluff. If you read anything about the purge of the Knights Templar in European history. It makes it more so. After all, this is why Friday the 13th is considered less than lucky in the West.
It seems reasonable, from what we know that "the cursed" whether by their own actions or outside influences were subject to some form of mutation or instability. Extreme mutation has been almost inexplicably a crime, despite the acceptance of abhumans, and has this association with Chaos. The cursed very well could have been the first instance of space marines encountering chaos, after the primarchs were scattered, resulting is a drastic affliction of mutations. While I don't know if there is a true connection, the way "cursed" is used in the 40k setting most often are the cursed foundings... often tails of tragedy outside the control of those marines chapters. If "the cursed" were absorbed into the Ultramarines, or even just had their genetic material stored by the Mechanicum, the origins of the Cursed founding maybe tied to "the cursed.'
Hadn't seen that, Daston. Quite right, that does indicate some warp corruption for sure.
I still maintain that the lost legions probably had no outward signs of chaos, and probably did not engage in open treason or warfare, or else it would be noted by the other traitors during the Heresy.
Could it be possible that the "warnings" Dorn referred to weren't warnings of Chaos corruption or outright heresy, but warnings about the potential for flaws inherent within the Primarchs themselves? Perhaps The Lost primarch went mad and killed himself, or otherwise abdicated his responsibilities through his own weakness and was lost to his legion. Perhaps The Cursed primarch was marked with a terrible affliction or mutation of his own that grew worse until he and possibly his whole legion had to be put down for deviancy? Basically just signs that the primarchs were not perfect and could be tainted, without overtly foreshadowing Horus's actions.
That Dorn quote is very interesting, but it would really take away from the story if the Horus Heresy had been preceded by one or two "little heresies" that were quashed and ignored. It has less dramatic impact if Horus, Magnus, Lorgar, et al are just doing exactly what two of their brothers did previously. The Heresy is no longer unprecedented and unimaginable, and everyone else, especially the Emperor, looks even stupider for doing absolutely nothing to uncover or avert it.
Despite the well thrashed out evidence that one legion was knacked by the Space Wolves, maybe they both fled to the eye of terror when they heard Matt Ward was writing their codex...
...or maybe one Primarch did do one and returned using the pseudonym Draigo later in life...
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
2. One is referred to as "The Lost" and the other "The Cursed"
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:"The Lost" was probably truly lost in some way, and "The Cursed" probably did suffer some fate outside their own control.
aka_mythos wrote:It seems reasonable, from what we know that "the cursed" whether by their own actions or outside influences were subject to some form of mutation or instability.
AHHHHHH, sorry about this. I posted a while ago that they were The Lost and The Cursed, but as EnglishAssassin rightly pointed out a few posts back, the actual line is 'the forgotten and the purged'.
Which doesn't suggest 'chaos' nearly as much - it's much more ambiguous. Although it very strongly supports the idea that one were purged by the Space Wolves. Presumably the forgotten were the ones folded into the Ultramarines. Unless there was a case of divided loyalty in one legion, leading to that legion being 'purged' of disloyal troops and the rest of the loyal ones being folded into the Ultramarines.
Now, to put more twists into this, I can't remember which novel this occurs in, but - in one HH book, Rogal Dorn is shown on Terra, staring at the statues of the Primarchs, and wishing that the two other Legions were still here. He may even talk about this with Malcador. How he could REALLY do with two more legions right now. Interestingly, at no point in this do we get the impression that Rogal Dorn thinks that there legions would side with the traitors. More to the point, if Dorn assumes that these two legions would be on the loyal side, it's very unlikely that either of these Legions turned 'traitor' before the Heresy - they must have been expunged for other reasons....
ArbitorIan wrote:
Now, to put more twists into this, I can't remember which novel this occurs in, but - in one HH book, Rogal Dorn is shown on Terra, staring at the statues of the Primarchs, and wishing that the two other Legions were still here. He may even talk about this with Malcador. How he could REALLY do with two more legions right now. Interestingly, at no point in this do we get the impression that Rogal Dorn thinks that there legions would side with the traitors. More to the point, if Dorn assumes that these two legions would be on the loyal side, it's very unlikely that either of these Legions turned 'traitor' before the Heresy - they must have been expunged for other reasons....
I know the one you are referring to Ian, but can't for the life of me remember, it might be Mecahanicum before Sigmismund is sent to Mars. I think Dorn says some along the lines 'if only it were 9' in reference to the legions sent too istvaan including the 2 lost legions and Malcador replies something like 'Don't even think of it, they are lost to us forever' which could mean that something bad happened and possibly Malcador knows about it. If it's true that the Wolves were released on one of the lost, then it must have been something serious for the Emperor to order it.
In the Lightning Tower we have this also about the statues:
The second and the eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?
well, one of the primarch was said to possess the power of invisibility (though it doesn’t say if this is see through invisibility or if he was a blank) so the lost could all have the blank gene....got lost......and the emperor had no way of finding them (maybe they got lost in the warp or something) or they all just faded away and still roam the galaxy doing what ever invisible people do
I still think that the legion of the dammed might be one of the missing legion rather than some dead fire hawks. maybe they were banished by the emperor but their spirits lingered on (or the emperor just banished their mortal bodies) and tried to redeem themselves thus their curse is to spend eternity fighting to win back the emperors favour
Just a few thoughts ^^
that or one of the legions is the rainbow marines who refused to fight an so got nuked from orbit
ArbitorIan wrote:
Now, to put more twists into this, I can't remember which novel this occurs in, but - in one HH book, Rogal Dorn is shown on Terra, staring at the statues of the Primarchs, and wishing that the two other Legions were still here. He may even talk about this with Malcador. How he could REALLY do with two more legions right now. Interestingly, at no point in this do we get the impression that Rogal Dorn thinks that there legions would side with the traitors. More to the point, if Dorn assumes that these two legions would be on the loyal side, it's very unlikely that either of these Legions turned 'traitor' before the Heresy - they must have been expunged for other reasons....
I know the one you are referring to Ian, but can't for the life of me remember, it might be Mecahanicum before Sigmismund is sent to Mars. I think Dorn says some along the lines 'if only it were 9' in reference to the legions sent too istvaan including the 2 lost legions and Malcador replies something like 'Don't even think of it, they are lost to us forever' which could mean that something bad happened and possibly Malcador knows about it. If it's true that the Wolves were released on one of the lost, then it must have been something serious for the Emperor to order it.
In the Lightning Tower we have this also about the statues:
The second and the eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?
the lightning tower is where this is mentioned, and the primarch with invisibility is Corax which is mentioned in Raven's Flight
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
the lightning tower is where this is mentioned, and the primarch with invisibility is Corax which is mentioned in Raven's Flight
The quote I posted was from Lightning Tower but the other conversation in regards to the 'wishing it were 9' doesn't appear to be. I'm looking at the Lightning Tower now and can't see it here.
They were expunged so that people could still have hope in the adeptus astartes and because there was no need for the knowledge and the heretical legions werent expunged because they are still a threat to the imperium
There is also the thing that it makes little sence seeing as 40K fans would still be able to create DIY chapters without the missing legions. this is proved by the massive amout of DIY chapters that have no link to them
Yes there could have been DiY chapters. But you couldnt have DiY Legions. The ability to deal with legions is a whole different level of customizing your fluff then a chapter. Also I know I feel more attached to the glories of a legion as opposed to a chapter. If I were to make up my own astartes, I would rather make a glorious legion then a splinter chapter. Thats just me though. So I am glad that GW left it open.
Apart from the fact that the two removed legions (they are not technically missing, seeing as the primarches and the Emperor were fully aware of what happened to them) must not have been that glorious due to their end. GW have not left their histories open as they have a defined end point, they no longer exist in the 40k universe, as it currently stands any homebrew 'missing' legion is only fitting for a Great Crusade force.
Lord Demon wrote:Was warhammer fantasy not part of the 40k universe long ago? But they retconned it and seperated the 2 settings? I remember hearing somewhere that sigmar used to be a primarch. Landing in a twintailed comet (birthtube thing). Having superhuman strength etc.
Maybe Sigmar and the first great chaos lord in fantasy where primarchs. So gw first intended them to be primarchs and later they retconned the settings. Keeping the 2 lost primarch's lost just to keep them mysterious.
There's a big debate on this, but basically, Warhammer Fantasy used to be a planet shrouded in warp storms in the 40k universe but isn't anymore (not officially, it was an offhand comment from one of the designers). There's some hints that they are different realities, and the warp connects them (like in the Albion campaign, one of the Chaos magic items had a strikingly similar descrition to a Chainsword and came from the Realm of Chaos). But still, they're separate.
However, the fact that they were both found and did fight at least at the start of the great crusade means they aren't from the Fantasy setting.
Zalmout wrote:Perhaps nothing happened to the actual legions, I feel like the two primarchs we're possibly just lost to time and space.
The Horus Heresy novels make a lot of references to them. They did exist, the primarchs were found, and did fight at the start of the crusade.
There's various remarks from various characters that suggest one was disbanded and absorbed by the Ultramarines, the fate of the primarch unknown, and Russ was sent after the other and destroyed the legion.
See i'm a big fan of the "fill the gap with your own ideas" theory. My current work in progress is a chapter called "The Star Dragons". And literally, they are space marines who's geneseed has mutated so badly, that they are lizard-like and dragonic, evenin going as far as for some of them to sprout wings.
My Fluff reasoning, is that the Emperor could do nothing to control this mutation, and regretfully ordered their destruction, and subsequent removal from imperial records. Present day, some of them have managed to escape, and they are still loyalists. This also gives them fluff reasons for fighting imperial armies, as they are attacked on sight, and will only fight imperial forces in self defence.
Maybe not the most original fluff, but i have the removed legions to thank for it!
Well, given that they are space marines who don't look human, i'd say that's immediate grounds for attack isnt it? The average imperial guardsmen would think it was a possessed Space Marine (chaos) or something, same probably goes for current loyalists marines. After all, their policy is, kill it now, ask questions later.
Durza wrote:But how would the Imperium know to attack them on sight?
Which is a very good point most 'lost legion' homebrew fluff writters forget. It is only the reader and a select few agents of the IoM that would have access to the information presented in the C:SM so 99.999999999999999999999999999% of most humans have no idea there were 2 lost legions at all.
If the space wolves are the ones who destroyed another legion, what makes them so special? Between that and them basically outing the Thousand Sons because they fear psykers, why are they being treated more trustworthy than any other chapters?
Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.
English Assassin wrote:Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.
I think to believe that is being very narrow minded. I mean they do just about everything but come out and say that Russ and his dogs have already destroyed another legion.
My thing is, all the Primarchs had a role or 'class'. So what role or 'class' of warrior was missing? What would the two missing primarchs have been destined for or specialized in?
English Assassin wrote:Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.
I think to believe that is being very narrow minded. I mean they do just about everything but come out and say that Russ and his dogs have already destroyed another legion.
And yet it remains at best implied, not stated as fact. Inference, implication and fact are quite distinct things. There would be fewer pointless arguments in here if more people grasped that.
SickSix wrote:My thing is, all the Primarchs had a role or 'class'. So what role or 'class' of warrior was missing? What would the two missing primarchs have been destined for or specialized in?
This is a really good way to approach this, in my opinion. Each primarch fills an archetype of some sort (although some overlap significantly). It's likely that whatever the reason for the loss of these primarchs, they must have been different from their brothers in some way, and possibly even radically different in a way that would cause the loss of their legion.
The biggest role I see missing is the pacifist. It seems counter-intuitive that a being designed for war would not want to fight, but Lorgar did not consider himself much of a warrior. I believe very strongly that one of the missing primarchs simply did not want to fight, as it's a sort of obvious what-if. What if the Emperor rediscovered a son who grew up in peace, had no warrior spirit, and didn't want to participate in the Great Crusade at all? The pacifist primarch would have led his legion in a lackluster manner, been shunned by his brothers and hated by his father, and in my view, killed himself (or possibly just disappeared). The ultimate emo primarch, but arguably for good reason. His legion would have been "forgotten" and disbanded, but his aid would still be wished for by Dorn in the dark times of the Heresy.
(rant) As for the disbanded legion being absorbed into the Ultramarines, I'm slightly annoyed ADB even included this in First Heretic, only because I think everyone latches onto it and misinterprets it. The Ultramarines didn't have huge numbers because they ate up another legion - it's been canon since 2nd edition that they recruited from their own little empire of planets at a prodigious rate while suffering fewer casualties than some other legions.
If the Ultramarines did absorb one of the lost legions near the start of the Crusade, it wouldn't have had much impact on their numbers by the time of the Heresy. Assuming their tactics stay the same and they utilized the marines available as efficiently as possible (both of which are pretty much hallmarks of the Ultramarines), casualties are going to scale with legion size and the steady-state size is going to be determined by the recruitment rate, which wouldn't change just because of the absorbed legion.
Honestly I think the comment was a joke stemming from the hatred the Word Bearers felt for the Ultramarines, possibly with a kernel of truth.
(/rant)
I like the idea that one (mabye both) legion foresaw the heresy and knew they could do nothing to stop it, so they just up sticks and left without warning only returning in the imperiums greatest need I.E. when the emperor dies.
I think we can pick a couple of attributes to mark each that might work: Envy (named Leviathan) and Greed (named Mammon).
Mammon, like the other Primarchs, was tasked early on to bring a section of the galaxy into compliance. However, not being satisfied with simply turning the conquered worlds over to the Emperor, he kept them for himself. First it was simply an "administrative expedience". Mammon convinced the Emperor that Terra was so far away and regional control would be better served by someone much closer. The Emperor initially agreed and was happy with the foresight and helpfulness of his son.
As Mammon's conquests grew, he was emboldened to make changes in his conquered territories. What started with the conquered planets simply paying tribute eventually turned into a complete replacement of any reference to the "Emperor" with "Mammon".
Although most ignored this eccentric behavior, Leviathan watched and plotted. He was envious of Mammon's empire and desired one for his own. However, the Emperor was not impressed with Mammon's behavior and would not allow Leviathan the same lattitude of control. This enraged Leviathan who took his legion and fought against Mammon in order to acquire through direct force the thing his Father denied. The war was terrible and cost the two legions greatly. Eventually, Leviathan was successful and, in a final confrontation, Mammon was destroyed.
With great despair, the Emperor unleashed Russ and tasked him with Leviathan's destruction. Once complete, records of both primarchs were expunged and the worlds previously held by Mammon were virus bombed to ensure word of this never got out.
--------
The lessons learned from this would have absolutely applied to the Heresy.
clively wrote:I think we can pick a couple of attributes to mark each that might work: Envy (named Leviathan) and Greed (named Mammon).
Mammon, like the other Primarchs, was tasked early on to bring a section of the galaxy into compliance. However, not being satisfied with simply turning the conquered worlds over to the Emperor, he kept them for himself. First it was simply an "administrative expedience". Mammon convinced the Emperor that Terra was so far away and regional control would be better served by someone much closer. The Emperor initially agreed and was happy with the foresight and helpfulness of his son.
As Mammon's conquests grew, he was emboldened to make changes in his conquered territories. What started with the conquered planets simply paying tribute eventually turned into a complete replacement of any reference to the "Emperor" with "Mammon".
Although most ignored this eccentric behavior, Leviathan watched and plotted. He was envious of Mammon's empire and desired one for his own. However, the Emperor was not impressed with Mammon's behavior and would not allow Leviathan the same lattitude of control. This enraged Leviathan who took his legion and fought against Mammon in order to acquire through direct force the thing his Father denied. The war was terrible and cost the two legions greatly. Eventually, Leviathan was successful and, in a final confrontation, Mammon was destroyed.
With great despair, the Emperor unleashed Russ and tasked him with Leviathan's destruction. Once complete, records of both primarchs were expunged and the worlds previously held by Mammon were virus bombed to ensure word of this never got out.
--------
The lessons learned from this would have absolutely applied to the Heresy.
If this were the case then why were they called the forgotten and the purged and expunged from Imperial Record. Not even the traitor marines got this treatment and your scenario is hardly worse.
Grey Templar wrote:My personal view is that the Primarchs organized a rebellion against the Emperor which the Space Wolves were able to crush singlehandedly. Then, the Emperor covered up the rebellion by everyone taking the vow of silence.
Nice fanboy theory. No basis in reality, though.
SickSix wrote:
English Assassin wrote:Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.
I think to believe that is being very narrow minded. I mean they do just about everything but come out and say that Russ and his dogs have already destroyed another legion.
Can you provide a source for your claims? As English Assassin stated, the only piece of evidence is that Wolves have fought Marines before. Period. They could have been talking about their tussles with the Dark Angels for all we know. Russ was always eager to pick a fight with one of his brothers.
ArbitorIan wrote:The two lost legions are also referred to as 'The Lost' and 'The Cursed' on one of the HH books.
AFAIK, the current 'myth' is as follows.
- All 20 legions participated in the Crusade, so left Terra.
- Two Legions/Primarchs were lost and stricken from records BEFORE the Heresy started. Everyone is very sad about this.
- The Space Wolves allude to the fact that they've fought Astartes before the Heresy.
- The Ultramarines' ranks swelled soon after one of these Legions was disbanded.
IMO, this infers the folowing.
- At least one of the legions did something so bad that they were destroyed. Maybe the Primarch was a Chaos worshipping mutant? Maybe his corruption was much worse than even the Thousand Sons. ('The Cursed') On the other hand, maybe he hated the Imperium or rebelled. We know that Angron hated the Emperor at first, and resented him even after. I would guess that, if the Legion did something so bad as to be destroyed, they probably wouldn't join the Ultramarines too, so..
- If that legion was 'The Cursed', then could there be a Primarch that was merely 'Lost'. So, had left the galaxy, chose not to be part of the Imperium, or was simply dead by the time the Emperor found his landing point. If so, and his Legion (who would have been part of the Crusade, looking for him) hadn't actually done anything wrong, then it's likely they would have been 'folded' into another legion rather than allowed to carry on with no Primarch?
My main beef with the idea that they rebelled is that constantly in the Heresey books they go on and on about 'oh my goodness, oh my goodness, it's unpossible that an astartes would rebel....this is totally unpossible...' (yes I know unpossible isn't a word, thank you Robot Chicken). Even marines who were around from the start of the great crusade go on about it being 'unpossible', guys who IF either legion had gone rogue, would know about it, and would instead be saying 'not again, not again, not again'.
From what I have read in this thread, the most convinving story is this.
1) One primarch had some mental or character issues which were not of a military of political nature. Think about it like this, most primarchs ended up being heroes, what if one didn't? What if he ended up being some guy who just didn't have it in him (didn't think it was worth it, or maybe he didn't think being a conqueror was moral like it has been suggested above). Eventually he either leaves, gets killed because of carelessness, or kills himself.
This would have been very embarassing for the emperor, and upsetting for his brothers.
2) I doubt 11s legion's gene seed is corrupt, because the emperor would have noticed something like that. He fought with many of those legions on terra, while ending the terran age of strife. The corruption may have also been something really mundane, non-chaotic. Don't think of something that is infamous, but something that is disgusting and shameful. What if man spread a culture of perversion across his legion (drugs, massacres, rape, etc). One doesn't need to worship chaos to be evil. Maybe instead of being the heroe or anti-heroe that all the other primarchs were on their planet, this guy was a total evil bastard, and turned his legion into something similar.
So one primarch was by choice or by natuer not fit for the role in life that the emperor had given him. The other was just simply a scum bag who had gone so far that he needed to be killed.
Both stories are shameful enough to warrant cover ups. However, neither traitors nor loyalist legions would have any interest in talking about it.
Horus and friends would think of both chapters being below them, and the Loyalists would view them with shame.
AustonT wrote:I'm fairly certain the space sharks will turn out to be from the forgotten legion.
The Carcharodons' mystery-shrouded background has been written in such a way as to encourage our speculation - that they're loyalist World Eaters or Night Lords is another theory I've heard mooted - but I very much doubt Games Workshop will ever spoil the mystery by confirming things one way or another.
wizardofgore wrote:If the space wolves are the ones who destroyed another legion, what makes them so special?
The Emperor tailored each Legion to a fit a certain fighting style, the Space Wolves fighting style could have been seeded with the intention of fighting a worst case scenario of a Legion needing to be removed. This is helped by their very none standard (even by Great Crusade standards) fighting stlye.
It would be alot harder for another Legion to do it, due to the fact that both legions would know the coming plans of each other.
I tend to lean towards any theory that allows the continued existence of the two legions. This lets fans come up with their own plot lines. After all, until we get official GW storyline, its up to us to believe whatever sounds best to us. Here's a scenario I like...
One of the legions, possibly the 'lost' or 'forgotten' one, took its entire fleet into the warp, and didn't come out for thousands of years, and WAY of course. Warp drives having been blown, and all astropaths having been killed, they've done their best, setting up camp and establishing an empire similar to the UM's, but smaller. Continuing to fight in the Emprahs name, they await the day they can re-establish contact with the imperium....
40k cannon, not even close. But I like it, and that's what is important. If GW ever comes out with something official, I'll enjoy that storyline as well.
Malcador-Dorn dialogue kind of suggest that those legions were still out there by the time of heresy, but Imperium couldn't reach them.
So I guess that maybe something really bad happened during the great crusade which wasn't horrible as the heresy. So instead of declaring them traitors, imperium deleted their records and send them to exile (like current military dishonarable discharges). Also this explains why Horus said "glories that will never come to pass" since all of their achievements will be deleted. I know it's a wild theory but what do you think?
@SickSix
It's in the Mechanicum from the Horus Heresy series
Spoiler:
“No,” said Malcador. “Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us,
but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother
legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others.”
“Would that it were fifteen,” mused Dorn.
“Do not even think it, my friend,” warned Malcador. “They are lost to us forever.”
“I know,” said Dorn, “and you are right. By any simple reckoning of numbers, the traitor
stands little chance of victory, but he was always the most cunning, the one most likely to
find a way where no others could.”
Phiasco II wrote:I tend to lean towards any theory that allows the continued existence of the two legions. This lets fans come up with their own plot lines. After all, until we get official GW storyline, its up to us to believe whatever sounds best to us. Here's a scenario I like...
One of the legions, possibly the 'lost' or 'forgotten' one, took its entire fleet into the warp, and didn't come out for thousands of years, and WAY of course. Warp drives having been blown, and all astropaths having been killed, they've done their best, setting up camp and establishing an empire similar to the UM's, but smaller. Continuing to fight in the Emprahs name, they await the day they can re-establish contact with the imperium...
I thought of something similar myself, but instead of a local warp-pocket their Primarch led them on a foolhardy extragalactic conquest. Their mission was believed to be a failure. It was considered such a shameful way for a Legion to be lost that their records were purged and the legion became "The Forgotten".
Cyrax wrote:@SickSix
It's in the Mechanicum from the Horus Heresy series
Spoiler:
“No,” said Malcador. “Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us,
but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother
legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others.”
“Would that it were fifteen,” mused Dorn.
“Do not even think it, my friend,” warned Malcador. “They are lost to us forever.”
“I know,” said Dorn, “and you are right. By any simple reckoning of numbers, the traitor
stands little chance of victory, but he was always the most cunning, the one most likely to
find a way where no others could.”
'Lost to us forever' is also a fancy way of saying 'dead'.
Yes, lost to us could also mean they are dead but read the line before that. Malcador warns Dorn not to even think about them. I think this sounds like Malcador trying to stop Dorn's unorthodox idea.
I've always thought that one of them might our good friend Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy, but the other I'm not sure of. And BTW, I think, the Big Brother society that the IoM is, the chances are most the traitor Primarchs were wiped from record to, and you only get to know about them when you become a SM.
Cyrax wrote:Yes, lost to us could also mean they are dead but read the line before that. Malcador warns Dorn not to even think about them. I think this sounds like Malcador trying to stop Dorn's unorthodox idea.
Even with the line before that it still reads as them being dead. Malcador's line more likely referes to the fact that the Emperor made them swear not to speak of them again
Urien_Rakarth wrote:I've always thought that one of them might our good friend Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy, but the other I'm not sure of. And BTW, I think, the Big Brother society that the IoM is, the chances are most the traitor Primarchs were wiped from record to, and you only get to know about them when you become a SM.
This was a direction GW went with for a short time but then retconned the idea.
It used to be implied that sigmar was a primarch and fantasy world was in 40k universe. Even there was a story depicting sigmar's pod falling from the sky like a twin tailed comet. However now fantasy and 40k are two seperate universes and things suggested otherwise were removed.
Also big brother society like imperium needs enemies to control its subjects. So average citizen knows about traitor primarchs.
Getting back topic, I think the missing legion(s) did something that was bad for the emperor but justifiable or appealing to an average citizen. Therefore they were covered up.
I think the 2 missing legions are supposed to be the basis for some of the player created chapters who are supposed to be successor chapters from unknown legions, i mean there're a pretty lot of them out there including official chapters released by GW.
Well, I got a couple of guesses, probably totaly wrong because I've haven't read all HH books.
The first thing that struk me was lost in a warp-storm, and possibly appering about 10 000 (or more) years later. Or even going back in time. As I've understood it, non of these theories is way of.
BUT (yeah, there's always a but in a debate)
Why would the Emperor hide/destroy all memories of them? Let us say, for simplicity, that this is just the "Forgotten".
Might it be as simple as shame? That something happend that he never could have thought of or caused by giving the primarch a certain order? Shame can be quite powerful as a feeling goes, and the emperor probably want the people to see him as "perfect".
OR might it even be so that the Emperor KNEW that the heresy would come, and decided to save a full legion by sending them into the future via a warp-storm? Not probable, I know, but impossible? No, I think not.
The other idea that struck me is that there is some guard regiments (catachan for example) that is larger than ordinary men. Is it impossible for a marine to mate with a ordinary women and have a living child with here? After some ten thousand years the offspring would have lost all marine traits (a rigid chest instead of ribs and a double set of hearts comes to mind).
How come noone ever mentions Horus smashing his fist into one of the pods during his travels through time and space via the chaos gods? Didn't it break apart and reveal a twisted monster as it was sucked into the portal that scattered the primarchs? Perhaps one of the primarchs was a horrible mutant. more so than Magnus or Vulken. If this were the case perhaps the Emperor just destroyed him upon discovery? Maybe the primarch looked like the "eye ball" guy from the Marvel Superheroes game on good ol' Sega Saturn!
I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.
Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.
Note that Rick said this was the original intent of the lost legions, and GW may have taken his ideas and put them to use in some other way since then. It does make a great deal of sense though. When you think of legions like the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children, you don't get much worse.
The lost legions got rolled into the Ultramarines. What happened to them or their primarchs to make this happen, we do not know. We do know that they had "separate tragedies" that somehow forshadowed the horus heresy.
In Nemesis (HH Series) a Vindicare Assassin mentions having killed space marines before. Implying at least the Vindicare clade has taken commissions on Space Marines before the start of the heresy. Now which space marines and why would Malcador authorise such hits. This could well point to the involvement of the two missing legions in particular the purged.
Viersche wrote:i mean there're a pretty lot of them out there including official chapters released by GW.
This is not true at all
Yes, this is laughable untrue. There are studio chapters of 'unknown' progenitors, but it's never even been implied that any established chapter was founded from the geneseeds of legio II or XI.
ph34r wrote:The lost legions got rolled into the Ultramarines. What happened to them or their primarchs to make this happen, we do not know. We do know that they had "separate tragedies" that somehow forshadowed the horus heresy.
No, it's rumoured in First Heretic this occurred.
Algorithm wrote:I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.
Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.
How very interesting - that's a distinctly more compelling explanation than any suggested here.
Edit: accidentally insulted the Dark Angels this time.
danesk wrote:OR might it even be so that the Emperor KNEW that the heresy would come, and decided to save a full legion by sending them into the future via a warp-storm? Not probable, I know, but impossible? No, I think not.
This isn't likely since the Emperor didn't have the gift of farsight. If he did, he wouldn't have made all of the mistakes he did.
In the later Horus Heresy books the Primarks do start to shed some light on this,
As has already been stated, the marines from these two Legions, at least some, did end up in the Ultramarines, which has in excess of 110,000 marines at the time of the Heresy.
Also when one of the Primarchs starts talking to another, they do say something about fallen brothers and they say they are sworn to secrecy.
Im sure as the HH progresses, so will the fluff with these bad boys
Mako_Boy wrote:In the later Horus Heresy books the Primarks do start to shed some light on this,
As has already been stated, the marines from these two Legions, at least some, did end up in the Ultramarines, which has in excess of 110,000 marines at the time of the Heresy.
No, that's a rumour repeated by one of the World Bearers in First Heretic, and then dismissed as unproven by another; yes it is possible, yes it would be interesting, but no, it's quite explicitly not definitively true.
Daston wrote:Dorn questions if the two missing brothers were infact warnings that went unheard.
Would that not imply they either took arms against the Imperium or were effected by Chaos?
Quoting this before i read the next two pages of posts....
But, i think this referred not necessarily to the fact that they turned to chaos, but that they fought each other, much like a mini horus heresy.
My view/best guess, like a few others, is that the two legions fought, the Cursed attacking the Lost. With most of the Lost being destroyed, or well, Lost to the imperium, and the Big E deciding that the Cursed must be punished, Russ was sent to destroy the crippled legion ( i assume that the fighting between the 2 lost legions took a major toll on both sides). The remanants of the Lost were then folded into the Ultramarines, which i assume due to the swelling of Ultramarine numbers at one point in their history.
Algorithm wrote:I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.
Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.
Note that Rick said this was the original intent of the lost legions, and GW may have taken his ideas and put them to use in some other way since then. It does make a great deal of sense though. When you think of legions like the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children, you don't get much worse.
Well, in the current BL material, these two Legions are gone long before the Heresy takes place.
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Mako_Boy wrote:In the later Horus Heresy books the Primarks do start to shed some light on this,
As has already been stated, the marines from these two Legions, at least some, did end up in the Ultramarines, which has in excess of 110,000 marines at the time of the Heresy.
This is conjecture, and dismissed as gross rumor in the next sentence. Ultramarines could have also swelled in size due to their recruiting practices (Ultima Segmentum largest portion of the Imperium) and the fact that they had the lowest casualty rates among the Legions during the Great Crusade.
I know its not deffinatley true. and i know its dismissed as a rumour, but a rumour in the BL lore is better than nothing. And even with their low casualty rate and recruitment worlds, it says all over the place their ranks were swollen in a very short amount of time.
Im not saying its Fact, all im saying is its an explantaion that has been ventured. Even if one character does dismiss it a sentance later.
danesk wrote:The other idea that struck me is that there is some guard regiments (catachan for example) that is larger than ordinary men. Is it impossible for a marine to mate with a ordinary women and have a living child with here? After some ten thousand years the offspring would have lost all marine traits (a rigid chest instead of ribs and a double set of hearts comes to mind).
This is due to nothing more than natural evolution, after living on a higher than earth gravity planet tht is full of deadly things you get big and strong. Space Marines do not breed, if they could there would be little fear in a chapter losing its genebank.
Omegus wrote:
Algorithm wrote:I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.
Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.
Note that Rick said this was the original intent of the lost legions, and GW may have taken his ideas and put them to use in some other way since then. It does make a great deal of sense though. When you think of legions like the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children, you don't get much worse.
Well, in the current BL material, these two Legions are gone long before the Heresy takes place.
And that means absolutely nothing, he was comparing the two groups. One went rougue but then did an act of self sacrifice (so the emperor gave them the option to be deleted from history instead of villified), the other went bad and stayed bad (so the emperor did not give an option).
Mako_Boy wrote:I know its not deffinatley true. and i know its dismissed as a rumour, but a rumour in the BL lore is better than nothing. And even with their low casualty rate and recruitment worlds, it says all over the place their ranks were swollen in a very short amount of time.
Im not saying its Fact, all im saying is its an explantaion that has been ventured. Even if one character does dismiss it a sentance later.
No, that's just what you did; if you don't want to be corrected, make clear what you mean. Also, try actually reading the thread before you post; the same assertion had already been corrected a few posts earlier.
But, my view that BL will probably reveal more about these two legions in time with more releases seems probable if not likely. I see there is a new HH book available on Amazon for pre order called the Primarchs..could be ..revealing.
in the HH books they other two primarch were killed and there records expunged and all the primarchs have sworn an oath to the emperor to never speak about- see HH book the first heritic for the conversation with Logar and Magnus
Im not trying to be witty, or agressive. "Ok man, whatever" was trying to defuse anything and move on. I stand corrected on points of fact, so lets move swiftly on. And apologies that i was sooooo wrong and outrageously arrogant you felt the need to post absolutley nothing about the topic in hand, just to point a finger at me.
I always imagined that they were turned into daemons (or part daemons) but were still loyal to the emperor - so it kinda went against the emperors beliefs that chaos could not be controlled and should be destroyed, so he deleted all records of the lost legions and sent them on a one way mission and kept everyone quite cause you don't wanna go about saying "yea we can control chaos energy blah blah blah emperor was wrong"
There is always the possibility that they went to war against each other, in a much-escalated version of the SW/DA rivalry, then the Emperor removed them from the records to prevent people thinking the Marines weren't united.
i hope that more light is shed on this in HH.
i get the idea that one, or both, might not be dead. they say 'Lost' not actually dead.
By this i mean Chaos. Chaos Marines wouldnt talk about them becuase they are persuing thier own goals.
C, you learn Abbadon likes knowing the Blood Ravens were harmed (AND Eliphas was talking about the Blood Raven's secret the whole mission)
