I have noticed people always peg SMs and different power levels and enough of an opening. I made a poll where we can all say how strong we like are SM and the winning number become the official for the form! d(^.^)b No not at all. This is just for fun. How much is a SM worth to you?

Don't forget this is all for fun.

I reckon one Space Marine could take on 100 normal Imperial Guardsmen and win.

I would also guess 100 because we already have a hundred man kumite where a guy from some martial arts faction will take on 100guys, although this is one at a time and not to the death, but hey there space marines

Fluff-wise, 100. In-game, 3.

1000

I'd say it would be 100 in reality if deployed like a shock trooper, or in a small space. On open ground at range when the guardsmen knew he was going to attack them, he'd take down maybe 30-40 before the flashlights blinded him.

@ Nicholas it depends, if he were attacking guerrila style, he could kill more than 100, frontal assault 30-40 is reasonable, melee he'd probably kill all 100

I like the old stand by of one SM being 12 guards men. I also deprecate them based on upkeep cost.

If its a SM from the SM game then there wont be enough guardsmen

Reference "Movie Space Marines"
White Dwarf 300 (US)

I'd say 6-15 is about right.

It says in a white dwarf that one company of Space Marines is better than 100,000 (or is it 10 billion) Imperial Guardsmen

Pretty much all figures given in every Codex says 1 space marine can be equal to 10-12 guardsmen which seems fairly reasonable and is about the limit of what you'd see on the tabltop. Once you start getting past that, you get into ridiculous mode, venturing into Fanfic territory, breaking the suspension of disbelief and making gameplay feel...silly.

Also, Movie Marines are not "fluff' marines, they really aren't.


1 Space Marine is not going to take on 100 Guardsmen and win, sorry fanbois, but even as a Marine player, it's ridiculous.

3 € a Piece.

1 to one hundred is the most conservative estimate I would ever venture. A Guardsman with marine equipment, forget the huge genetic advantage, forget the centuries of experience, forget the super-condensed training beamed into their heads, would be able to take 6-15 guardsmen.

Vaktathi wrote:Also, Movie Marines are not "fluff' marines, they really aren't.

I'm glad someone said this, so many look at the Movie Marines list and think it's meant to be an accurate representation of a Marine in the fluff.

Though would say it depends on context. Just a normal shoot-out, 12-20 or so guardsman is probably equal to a Marine, but in physical combat the difference is greater.

While I'd agree that the 6-12 range is a pretty good estimate for what a single Astartes could handle, I should point out that the ratio isn't exactly linear. One hundred Astartes could probably take on many more than 1200 guardsmen, since the real strength of the Space Marines is their ability to operate as a deadly stand-alone army. A single marine is limited by the extent of his own skills, while a company or chapter can cover the relative weaknesses of each marine, resulting in an overall stronger force (aka Assault squads and dev squads working with tac squads, etc).

^Agreed^
A whole Chapter is likely worth tens of regiments, probably reaching the 100 mark.

Even the "marinetastic" ( and damn the marinewank was strong in these, otherwise good, books ) Word Bearers series ( Dark Apostle to be specific ) mentions that a single marines is worth "only" 30-40 well trained Guardsmen on the battlefield.

Of course, this also depends on the regiment we pit against the marines. Some conscripts who have never heard of a weapon heavier than the lasgun? Well...
Hardened Cadians on the other hand might find marines much less intimidating than soldiers from other regiments ( oh look Bob...another battlebarge in orbit...someone tell Hank to ready his Hydra for incoming droppods...).

KingDeath wrote:Even the "marinetastic" ( and damn the marinewank was strong in these, otherwise good, books ) Word Bearers series ( Dark Apostle to be specific ) mentions that a single marines is worth "only" 30-40 well trained Guardsmen on the battlefield.

A book about Marines displaying the Marines as being powerful? Why I never!

The following quote is attributed to Rogal Dorn, primarch of the Imperial Fists:
"Give me 100 Space Marines or, failing that, give me 1000 other troops."
Each Marine being worth 10 men is a little conservative given recent fluff, but it's at least something more conclusive from in the universe.

Vaktathi wrote:1 Space Marine is not going to take on 100 Guardsmen and win, sorry fanbois, but even as a Marine player, it's ridiculous.

Until you play Deathwatch.

My Deathwatch devistator has killed over 100 renegade guardsmen in a single fight before.

when a magnititude 300 renegade guardsmen horde comes at you, a Heavy bolter is a great thing to have.

I would say 1000.

a single marine certaintly couldn't take on all 1000 at once, but if you turned them all loose in a ruined city with plenty of cover I would bet on the Marine. He would use his super human senses to sneak and hid and mug the guardsmen in their 2s and 3s untill none are left.

I find this matter to be a bit annoying at times, but not too much. I just read 'Battle of the Fang', and there it is 2000 Marines vs. Millions of GEQ at times. I thought that was a bit much.

The power levels of single characters seem to change within the space of a few pages, too, which is mildly annoying as well, but not as much as to completely break the suspension of disbelief.

A fortified position makes a huge difference.

in the Middle Ages, a well designed castle could be held by a very small garrison against forces sometimes outnumbering them 1000 to 1.

Grey Templar wrote:A fortified position makes a huge difference.

in the Middle Ages, a well designed castle could be held by a very small garrison against forces sometimes outnumbering them 1000 to 1.

Yes, but So this is in fact even worse.

1 to 5 i guess...
I like guardsmen more..
A space marine could take 100 cultis


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Grey Templar wrote:I would say 1000.

a single marine certaintly couldn't take on all 1000 at once, but if you turned them all loose in a ruined city with plenty of cover I would bet on the Marine. He would use his super human senses to sneak and hid and mug the guardsmen in their 2s and 3s untill none are left.

Maybe guardsmen regroup and bundle their strength..
It isnt really fair to say boltgun vs lasgun

"Give me a hundred space marines. Failing that, give me a thousand other men."

1000 divided by 100 is 10. Therefore a space marine is worth 6-15 guys.

If my recent games are any sign to me, 5 marines are worth 1 guardsmen.

They were some pretty bad dice rolls

I like how "One really excited cat" is coming in 3rd overall

I think it is hard to gauge how many guardsmen a Space Marine can kill in the fluff, as it varies by author on how good they are. It also depends on which regiment he is fighting, as training varies greatly, and on what terrain he is fighting (open field, city) along with at what distance (close combat, long range). Finally, as others have said, the kill ratio would also differ depending on if he is alone or in a group.

16-30 says I.

Depends. Open combat 40-60 Guardsmen die.

A lone astartes using methodical Guerrila warfare to take out single squads at a time? As long as he doesn't mess up (and he won't because he excels humans in ever single area conceivable dozens of times over) and stumble upon a primary camp or some such, then he could conceivably keep on killing till the jobs done.

In terms of brute strength, I know my apothecary in deathwatch can flip a titan with his bear hands (lift load at 30)

On the table, 3 guardsmen to one marine.
In fluff, 100 guardsmen to one marine.

juraigamer wrote:In terms of brute strength, I know my apothecary in deathwatch can flip a titan with his bear hands (lift load at 30)

On the table, 3 guardsmen to one marine.
In fluff, 100 guardsmen to one marine.

30 what? Tons? If so, 30 tons is about as heavy as a Rhino, the Warhound Titan is friggin' 400 tons or something like that, IIRC.

I voted the 401-1000 range but only because there wasn't a bigger option. We all know that one space marine could probably take the entirety of the Imperial Guard by himself...unarmed...without armor...blindfolded. I mean, I can't believe all this crap about how a marine is only worth 6-15 guardsmen. He's a marine. It's like being a futuristic Spartan.

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:1 Space Marine is not going to take on 100 Guardsmen and win, sorry fanbois, but even as a Marine player, it's ridiculous.

Until you play Deathwatch.

My Deathwatch devistator has killed over 100 renegade guardsmen in a single fight before.

when a magnititude 300 renegade guardsmen horde comes at you, a Heavy bolter is a great thing to have.

Deathwatch also has grossly inflated stats and weapons for basic Space Marines. It's one thing to claim standard Astartes boltguns are more powerful than those wielded by sisters of battle or rare Guard officers, it's another when they are significantly more powerful than non-Deathwatch plasma/melta weaponry and heavy bolters. Deathwatch is not really an accurate representation of Marines either. It's a Hero simulation.


Realistically, once you get out of the 6-15 range, you get into fanwank territory.

"Give me a hundred space marines!!! Failing that give me a thousand other troops"

...If were following the fluff of Black Library Marine novels, in the 50's, if the Guard ones maybe in the 20's or less, if by the roleplaying games then......well a lasgun is about as strong as an Anti Tank rifle so I wouldn't bother to base it on them. I think that being realistic, the average human trooper would have the sense to just get together with a few of his squadmates, turn their lasguns to max charger, spray the marine on full auto and hope that their fluff armour doesn't hold (and that stuff's like paper to anything bar a lasgun...even zombie spit according to the Black Library).

Twenty at the most, lest their opponent's have a lack of common sence or be foul, heretical chaos worshippers in a propoganda pict (remember the marines always win, quote the novel "Eye of Terror" on any childrens game involving Space Marines).

Why would a spacemarine take on guardsmen. They are on the same side.
Isn't it funnier to say: who'll win in a battle like:
15-20 tau soldiers VS 10 guardsmen. ONLY CLOSE COMBAT

Vaktathi wrote:Pretty much all figures given in every Codex says 1 space marine can be equal to 10-12 guardsmen which seems fairly reasonable and is about the limit of what you'd see on the tabltop. Once you start getting past that, you get into ridiculous mode, venturing into Fanfic territory, breaking the suspension of disbelief and making gameplay feel...silly.

+1

Of course, circumstances can push that number to both sides ... either the physical combat mentioned by Void Dragon (Assault Marine with chainsword dropping down right into a platoon -> panic mode), or by an IG squad sporting better-than-average equipment (plasma guns). But the above number is a good standard and in line with what Rogal Dorn has said.

Vaktathi wrote:Also, Movie Marines are not "fluff' marines, they really aren't.

Yes, I'm continuously surprised to see how many people think they are, considering it is made abundantly clear in the article itself. I'm attributing the confusion to hearsay and wishful thinking.

Really, a Space Marine worth 6-15 guardsmen?

I mean, why would the Imperium invest the ridiculous amount of gear and training into a Space Marine, if he is only worth 6-15 guardsmen that can be conscripted from any world, and given a lasgun.

It is most certainly not fanwank territory getting above that, because if a Space Marine is only worth 6-15 guardsmen, then there would be no reason to have Space Marines at all, since we have billions of guardsmen.

Deathwatch weapons have gotten toned back, and seem pretty reasonable now. The only way a Space Marine can be hurt by guardsmen is if they are in a mass of 20+, which seems reasonable to me. I think Deathwatch does a much better job at displaying marines as they appear in fluff than the actually TT game does.

Oh, and the new Space Marine game does it pretty well too.

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:1 Space Marine is not going to take on 100 Guardsmen and win, sorry fanbois, but even as a Marine player, it's ridiculous.

Until you play Deathwatch.

My Deathwatch devistator has killed over 100 renegade guardsmen in a single fight before.

when a magnititude 300 renegade guardsmen horde comes at you, a Heavy bolter is a great thing to have.

Deathwatch also has grossly inflated stats and weapons for basic Space Marines. It's one thing to claim standard Astartes boltguns are more powerful than those wielded by sisters of battle or rare Guard officers, it's another when they are significantly more powerful than non-Deathwatch plasma/melta weaponry and heavy bolters. Deathwatch is not really an accurate representation of Marines either. It's a Hero simulation.


Realistically, once you get out of the 6-15 range, you get into fanwank territory.

Deathwatch IS off the mark, but it is many, many times closer to the reality of it then the TT.

Saying 6-15 is a Huge Guard Fanwank, so don't talk about fanwanking, fanwanker

Vaktathi wrote:Also, Movie Marines are not "fluff' marines, they really aren't.

Nope, they're movie marines.


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daedalus-templarius wrote:I mean, why would the Imperium invest the ridiculous amount of gear and training into a Space Marine, if he is only worth 6-15 guardsmen that can be conscripted from any world, and given a lasgun.

Conscripts are worth far less than a guardsman.

Guardsmen are well trained and competent soldiers-- conscripts are poor schmucks that are grabbed off the streets ,tossed in the back of a truck, given a gun and light flak armor, and told "go shoot the enemy or I'll shoot you".

Hmm, what would a "fluff marine" statline be in TT.

I find that the granularity of Deathwatch makes it much easier to represent them.

lolman112 wrote:Why would a spacemarine take on guardsmen. They are on the same side.
Isn't it funnier to say: who'll win in a battle like:
15-20 tau soldiers VS 10 guardsmen. ONLY CLOSE COMBAT

Yeah...I am wondering when my Tau will learn that CC is easier if they all use the swords each and every one of them carries.

The only time a 10 Tau could out CC 10 guardsmen (when dice is out of the equation) is when they're pissed off cuz their Ethereal died.

Melissia wrote:Conscripts are worth far less than a guardsman.

Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen? Its just a hilarious misallocation of resources then. Millions of guardsmen have died in fluff to preserve a few suits of Space Marine ARMOR!

daedalus-templarius wrote:Hmm, what would a "fluff marine" statline be in TT.

I find that the granularity of Deathwatch makes it much easier to represent them.

Agreed. As for Fluff Marine statline, I_am_a_spoon had a thread a while ago about this that pretty much resolved the issue for all but Melissia.

No, he stroked Marine egos until they bled testosterone.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen?

Tradition plays a big part in it.

But also because the pure numbers equation doesn't really work that well. Take the ten guardsmen for a marine thing. How exactly are you going to get 100 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy camp quickly and without warning?

But you can do that with Marines-- using drop pods, which Marines can survive using but most humans would be incapacitated if not actually injured from using.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen? Its just a hilarious misallocation of resources then. Millions of guardsmen have died in fluff to preserve a few suits of Space Marine ARMOR!

Humans are cheap and expendible in the Imperium. Technology is a rare and expensive commodity.

On the poll, I'd have to say it depends on what kind of cat. 2-week old kitten that hasn't opened it's eyes yet and can barely walk? Tough call, but I'd give it to the SM.

I think it's mentioned in the fluff somewhere that a Marine is worth about 10 guardsmen in combat. Of course, this varies depending on 'which' marine is doing the fighting. A hero, or a run-of-the-mill marine.

There are many examples of a company of marines stopping world-wide rebellions and such. I'm not sure if this happens by sheer intimidation based on Astartes combat prowess myths, actual combat, or whether any ancillary units took part, but there is no mention of them as they don't have the cashet of the Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:No, he stroked Marine egos until they bled testosterone.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen?

Tradition plays a big part in it.

But also because the pure numbers equation doesn't really work that well. Take the ten guardsmen for a marine thing. How exactly are you going to get 100 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy camp quickly and without warning?

But you can do that with Marines-- using drop pods, which Marines can survive using but most humans would be incapacitated if not actually injured from using.

If you dropped 10 space marines into the middle of an enemy camp, and they are as tough as 10 guardsmen apiece, they are going to fail. Even their shock tactics aren't going to work if they are that weak.

daedalus-templarius wrote:If you dropped 10 space marines into the middle of an enemy camp, and they are as tough as 10 guardsmen apiece, they are going to fail. Even their shock tactics aren't going to work if they are that weak.

Sigh.

100 guardsmen ambushing an enemy are very likely to utterly destroy said enemy. That aside, pay attention to my posts more:

Melissia wrote:But also because the pure numbers equation doesn't really work that well.

Remember, the world is more than merely numbers.

Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Ah man, I loved Brothers of the Snake.

1000 because that was the max in the poll.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all

IE oversimplify things to the point of nonsense?

One could say one Tanith is worth half a dozen Cadians, but that's only true when using the Tanith to their specialty. Marines in a straight up fight are probably worth roughly a squad of ten fully equipped guardsmen (guns, armor, special weapon and heavy weapon) in that both stand a good chance of destroying eachother and even if they win they've probably been hurt rather bad. But the thing is, why the hell would you use a marine in a straight up fight? In an ambush, that marine would destroy the ten guardsmen with a low chance of receiving grievous injury, while the ten guardsmen would have a much harder time ambushing that marine (it's not impossible, but the Marine's senses are enhanced).

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Lol, these are "special" marines powered by turbo fluff. You can't discount it of course because if it's written it's canon. I do think 1 marine to 10 guardsmen is about right for a standard joe-blow Astartes imho.

Again though, any attempt to put even the remotest amount of logic into certain authors perceptions of the 40k universe will end in a complete fail.

Edit: Logic AND continuity...

Melissia wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all

IE oversimplify things to the point of nonsense?

One could say one Tanith is worth half a dozen Cadians, but that's only true when using the Tanith to their specialty. Marines in a straight up fight are probably worth roughly a squad of ten fully equipped guardsmen (guns, armor, special weapon and heavy weapon) in that both stand a good chance of destroying eachother and even if they win they've probably been hurt rather bad. But the thing is, why the hell would you use a marine in a straight up fight? In an ambush, that marine would destroy the ten guardsmen with a low chance of receiving grievous injury, while the ten guardsmen would have a much harder time ambushing that marine (it's not impossible, but the Marine's senses are enhanced).

Except Space Marine are better than guardsmen in each and every way physically possible. And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Saying 6-15 is a Huge Guard Fanwank, so don't talk about fanwanking, fanwanker

Except that's about what *EVERY* Codex: Space Marines has stated since 2nd edition (10-12 normal human troops per Space Marine)?

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Lets be honest, these are ridiculous tales. An Ogryn is more than a match for most Space Marines unless they're packing terminator armor and a Powerfist, and Iron Snakes was an SM wankfest with dozens of fluff inconsistencies (a single tac squad killing thousands of dark eldar, SM's taking direct command of IG forces and giving direct orders to IG forces, etc). Brothers of the Snake is the one BL book I have never finished, it was that bad. The part with the single marine was also hugely contradictory to fluff, because marines don't operate in onesies, they operate as a team always. Also, it was a crashed DE ship not a full on invasion.


Lysander's fluff is also...bad. silly bad.

And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Except, you know, the fact that Space Marines are not omniscient and don't have eyes in the back of their head. They can't sense everything, and they aren't immune to distraction. Stating otherwise is pure sillyness.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all

IE oversimplify things to the point of nonsense?

One could say one Tanith is worth half a dozen Cadians, but that's only true when using the Tanith to their specialty. Marines in a straight up fight are probably worth roughly a squad of ten fully equipped guardsmen (guns, armor, special weapon and heavy weapon) in that both stand a good chance of destroying eachother and even if they win they've probably been hurt rather bad. But the thing is, why the hell would you use a marine in a straight up fight? In an ambush, that marine would destroy the ten guardsmen with a low chance of receiving grievous injury, while the ten guardsmen would have a much harder time ambushing that marine (it's not impossible, but the Marine's senses are enhanced).

Except Space Marine are better than guardsmen in each and every way physically possible. And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

I believe it's possible to even sneak up on a primarch as well. Just don't try it twice.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Except when they do.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Even when it's not a complete plot-fail, this happens more often than you'd think. Keep in mind that if it's written, it's canon and can happen.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Methinks you are grossly overestimating SM's capabilities. There's no fluff that they can hear footsteps or whatnot from multiple kilometers away. They'd go insane hearing a bajillion tiny noises during a battle and couldn't process that. Likewise, about the only fluff about SM's smelling that well is SW's with their enhanced WolfyMcWolferson senses, and it's awful fluff. Likewise, they may have slightly better vision, but they don't have any greater visual range than a normal human, they can't see behind them and don't have 20x magnification or anything silly like that. SM's also can get fatigued at some point, and aren't immune to distractions.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Except when they do.

That really doesn't happen. Except with RG, they're better at stealth than the Tanith.

Or when they take plot armour too far *cough*KladorDraigotheMarySuePallyLord*cough*

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Dude where are you getting these numbers from?

Also, Necrons sneak up on Space Marines pretty easily. Granted they cheat.

But Tyranids do as well, Ravenors for instance have snuck up on Mehreens, as have Genestealers and Lictors.

Seriously, uh, Marines are impressive, but not hearing scouts from kilometers away impressive. Nor smelling. Unless you're Space Wolves probably.

Also, what some here aren't really getting is that Space Marines are designed to be the perfect soldiers, not stand-alone warriors.

Individually, a Space Marine is a powerful foe, but not insurmountable.

But as a unit, as an army, you have a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, utilizing shock tactics and with each unit meant to complement one another, all held together by superhuman strength of body and mind. If the Imperial Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor, the Space Marines are his Sword (I feel like they have been called this in the fluff before, but I forget). The Imperial Guard are used to combat the enemy where he is strong, to hold out on the front lines, providing a more general assault, similar to how a hammer is better to penetrate armour, requiring less precision in wielding it. The Space Marines are sent towards the enemies' vitals, to completely obliterate them, similar to how one wields a sword.

Or something, the Space Marines fill a niche the Imperial Guard simply can't, and a vital one.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Dude where are you getting these numbers from?

Also, Necrons sneak up on Space Marines pretty easily. Granted they cheat.

But Tyranids do as well, Ravenors for instance have snuck up on Mehreens, as have Genestealers and Lictors.

Seriously, uh, Marines are impressive, but not hearing scouts from kilometers away impressive. Nor smelling. Unless you're Space Wolves probably.

Also, what some here aren't really getting is that Space Marines are designed to be the perfect soldiers, not stand-alone warriors.

Individually, a Space Marine is a powerful foe, but not insurmountable.

But as a unit, as an army, you have a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, utilizing shock tactics and with each unit meant to complement one another, all held together by superhuman strength of body and mind. If the Imperial Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor, the Space Marines are his Sword (I feel like they have been called this in the fluff before, but I forget). The Imperial Guard are used to combat the enemy where he is strong, to hold out on the front lines, providing a more general assault, similar to how a hammer is better to penetrate armour, requiring less precision in wielding it. The Space Marines are sent towards the enemies' vitals, to completely obliterate them, similar to how one wields a sword.

Or something, the Space Marines fill a niche the Imperial Guard simply can't, and a vital one.

In Brothers of the Snake, While hunting water wyrms or whatever they're called, the main character could hear conversation the humans on neighboring islands were having...miles away.

Sounds like Marine fanwank.

Seriously, that crap's just stupid.

Also: Custodes are awesome


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Void__Dragon wrote:Sounds like Marine fanwank.

Seriously, that crap's just stupid.

Abnett wrote it, take it up with him.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Dude where are you getting these numbers from?

Also, Necrons sneak up on Space Marines pretty easily. Granted they cheat.

But Tyranids do as well, Ravenors for instance have snuck up on Mehreens, as have Genestealers and Lictors.

Seriously, uh, Marines are impressive, but not hearing scouts from kilometers away impressive. Nor smelling. Unless you're Space Wolves probably.

Also, what some here aren't really getting is that Space Marines are designed to be the perfect soldiers, not stand-alone warriors.

Individually, a Space Marine is a powerful foe, but not insurmountable.

But as a unit, as an army, you have a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, utilizing shock tactics and with each unit meant to complement one another, all held together by superhuman strength of body and mind. If the Imperial Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor, the Space Marines are his Sword (I feel like they have been called this in the fluff before, but I forget). The Imperial Guard are used to combat the enemy where he is strong, to hold out on the front lines, providing a more general assault, similar to how a hammer is better to penetrate armour, requiring less precision in wielding it. The Space Marines are sent towards the enemies' vitals, to completely obliterate them, similar to how one wields a sword.

Or something, the Space Marines fill a niche the Imperial Guard simply can't, and a vital one.

In Brothers of the Snake, While hunting water wyrms or whatever they're called, the main character could hear conversation the humans on neighboring islands were having...miles away.

Has the ear thing showed up anywhere else? It dose seem rather silly.

^ I agree, it is. I accept it, but I take it with a grain of salt. I have seen it in a few other places (ex: Purging of Kadillus).

To be fair, it was one of Abnetts first space marine books. He's more of a Guard writer, and has been writing from the typical guardsmen view of "OMG SPESS MUREEENS ARE LIVING GODS!!!"

and the DE invasion of the Feudal world seemed to be a very minor one. a small ship which had only a few surviors. and the world wasn't exactly primative, they had lasguns IIRC.

I'm sorry, I saw the cat option and laughed. Well played, good sir. Oddly enough, my cat is well behaved. But my Space Marines are not. Those are some evil SOBs. And I aint talking sisters here

My cat once took out a squad of kroot with single tail strike.

What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

It's a fun system, you can get some good times out of it, but yeah, it's more than a wee bit overexaggerated, with basic bolters being more fearsome than Dark Heresy Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Void__Dragon wrote:Sounds like Marine fanwank.

Seriously, that crap's just stupid.

Yeah, the whole book like that. Only BL book I've never finished.

Vaktathi wrote:

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

It's a fun system, you can get some good times out of it, but yeah, it's more than a wee bit overexaggerated, with basic bolters being more fearsome than Dark Heresy Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Not since the errata they aren't.

All the gaiden games represent the 40k universe closer to the fluff background than 40k itself does.

6-15.

Can't see them realistically fighting that many more.


For a laugh, and a complete tailspin on this idea, how many Marines in a single Firewarrior worth? If you've read the novel 'Firewarrior', then you know the answer is 3 + 1 Librarian.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

It's a fun system, you can get some good times out of it, but yeah, it's more than a wee bit overexaggerated, with basic bolters being more fearsome than Dark Heresy Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Not since the errata they aren't.

All the gaiden games represent the 40k universe closer to the fluff background than 40k itself does.

Which errata? The DW one? I'm not seeing anything in there about Bolters. A DW bolter IIRC (don't have book here at work) does 2d10+5 Pen4 right? A normal Bolter in DH does D10+5 Pen4 IIRC and an Heavy Bolter doe 2D10 Pen4. Hell, Bolters are better than PG's and Meltaguns most of the time even in DW due to Tearing and Righteous Fury.

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Saying a bunch of names and ideas doesn't really prove their worth.

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

Not in the slightest. DW's biggest problems stem from the power of bolters. The errata fixed that.


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Vaktathi wrote:All the gaiden games represent the 40k universe closer to the fluff background than 40k itself does.

Which errata? The DW one? I'm not seeing anything in there about Bolters. A DW bolter IIRC (don't have book here at work) does 2d10+5 Pen4 right? A normal Bolter in DH does D10+5 Pen4 IIRC and an Heavy Bolter doe 2D10 Pen4. Hell, Bolters are better than PG's and Meltaguns most of the time even in DW due to Tearing and Righteous Fury.

Ah, the first errata that comes up on a google search didn't have the appendix for weapons.

So it does look like they toned them down significantly, though they're still damn near as powerful as DH Heavy Bolters (higher average damage, lower chance for righteous fury now it looks like).

Interesting change however, good to see they got around to fixing that.

(still waiting for word on a Collector's edition for Black Crusade...grumble)

How many guardsmen can 1 deathwatch marine take on in Deathwatch? However many 1 deathwatch marine can kill before going down is the number I will revise my vote to.

Obviously, they wouldn't just be standing next to each other shooting, so I guess it could be quite a varying number.

Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Grey Templar wrote:To be fair, it was one of Abnetts first space marine books. He's more of a Guard writer, and has been writing from the typical guardsmen view of "OMG SPESS MUREEENS ARE LIVING GODS!!!"

and the DE invasion of the Feudal world seemed to be a very minor one. a small ship which had only a few surviors. and the world wasn't exactly primative, they had lasguns IIRC.

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:6-15.

Can't see them realistically fighting that many more.


For a laugh, and a complete tailspin on this idea, how many Marines in a single Firewarrior worth? If you've read the novel 'Firewarrior', then you know the answer is 3 + 1 Librarian.

Don't forget the Greater Daemon of Tzeentch you get to kill in FW.

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Obviously. The Eldar didn't have enough men to hold a world, but they were proof against the humans weapons, so they would have an unending supply of slaves/victims that have no way to fight back and likely would have terrorized the world for generations.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Obviously. The Eldar didn't have enough men to hold a world, but they were proof against the humans weapons, so they would have an unending supply of slaves/victims that have no way to fight back and likely would have terrorized the world for generations.

Their body armor might have been effective against the natives weapons, but the DE were hardly proof.

that war dog that tagged along killed a couple of the DE warriors.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Obviously. The Eldar didn't have enough men to hold a world, but they were proof against the humans weapons, so they would have an unending supply of slaves/victims that have no way to fight back and likely would have terrorized the world for generations.

Their body armor might have been effective against the natives weapons, but the DE were hardly proof.

that war dog that tagged along killed a couple of the DE warriors.

He was a warhound bred through selective breeding, plus they chose not to just shoot it, they wanted to fight and cause it pain.

Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

biccat wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

Cuz they're worth 100+ Guardsmen.


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Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

They still have about 150 bolts.

More for stormbolters.

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Actually, by the book, it is.

So I created my own mechanic, "Fury of the Dark Gods", which allows the Bad Guys to roll extra damage when they roll 10s, just like the Good Guys.

Still... I am, personally, of the opinion that the fluff Marines make better characters than the table-top Marines, which are given stats in line with a game that is meant to be more-or-less balanced within itself, so that other armies are viable options.

That said? A single Marine can dish out destruction like a single, over-excited cat. Never underestimate a ticked-off feline and its paws of fury. Thousands have died in the last twenty minutes alone.

Psienesis wrote:

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Actually, by the book, it is.

So I created my own mechanic, "Fury of the Dark Gods", which allows the Bad Guys to roll extra damage when they roll 10s, just like the Good Guys.

Still... I am, personally, of the opinion that the fluff Marines make better characters than the table-top Marines, which are given stats in line with a game that is meant to be more-or-less balanced within itself, so that other armies are viable options.

That said? A single Marine can dish out destruction like a single, over-excited cat. Never underestimate a ticked-off feline and its paws of fury. Thousands have died in the last twenty minutes alone.

Unless a dog comes by and eats it.

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Not in hordes. I would never expect a single Guardsmen, even 5, to be able to do any true damage to an SM before he reaches them. Maybe take a few gouges out of the ceramite.

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

a bolt magazine holds around 30 rounds. marines can carry several of these.

they aren't supposed to be bogged down in static warfare and get resupplied often.

biccat wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

I actually I wonder how much it cost to train a SM. They seem to do most of that themselves. They also seem to craft an maintain there own equipment. Almost like they are a self sustaining force.

Space Marines are basically self sustaining with some minor reliance on the Ad Mech for certain equipment.

Space Marine chapters with homeworlds usually manufacture their own ammunition, PA, and certain vehicles.

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

Who is to say he'll use his bolter? He'd want to get into CC as fast as possible, its where he has a real advantage.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Not in hordes. I would never expect a single Guardsmen, even 5, to be able to do any true damage to an SM before he reaches them. Maybe take a few gouges out of the ceramite.

The problem is there isnt' even the possibility of hitting unarmored joints, eyes, etc. A guardsmen whose a half decent shot with a coulpe seconds to fire a burst should have at least a chance of hitting something like that, such as the groin joints, neck, waist where the leg plate meets the chestplate, backs of the legs, elbows, eyes, armpits, etc, any one of which theoretically could inflict a lethal shot on even a Space Marine (lasbolt cutting under the unarmored arm joint through to the internal organs for instance, or hitting the neck and puncturing through) even if such damage isn't likely.

A fire team (5ish) of guardsmen unloading on a Space Marine at close range should really stand a good chance of doing something nasty to him. Power armor has weaknesses. Unloading multiple lasrifles/autoguns at close range on automatic fire into the center mass of a Space Marine probably isn't going to leave him in much of a state to continue. He may still be alive, his armor may even be relatively intact, but he's probably got all sorts of damage to the ribcage/internal organs and musculature.


Being completely immune to anything but a full squad or a platoon is more than a wee bit silly, especially because nobody would possibly say the same thing about say, Sororitas in power armor or Tau Crisis suits, Striking Scorpions, Tau Stealth Suits,Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns, or DE Incubi, all of which wear similar protection, are as phsyically tough or both. An Astartes enhanced physiology doesn't make them immune to bullets or las bolts, just less likely to be incapacitated killed, a lasbolt to the head will still likely kill a Space Marine for instance if they don't have their helmet on, and a shot through the neck joint or eye will likely kill them just as dead as a guardsmen would be.

Psienesis wrote:

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Actually, by the book, it is.

So do you have a different version of the book than everyone else?

I think its the GMs call to allow enemies to inflict righteous fury at all, although I think the new version of it in Black Crusade is probably better balanced.

As for a SM vs 5 guardsmen, I wouldn't think the SM would just rush straight at them (unless its a berserker), but I guess if the SM did, they might be in trouble.

It is a bit silly that some of the weapons in DH/DW can't even harm a space marine, heh.

daedalus-templarius wrote:How many guardsmen can 1 deathwatch marine take on in Deathwatch? However many 1 deathwatch marine can kill before going down is the number I will revise my vote to.

It's unknown, because the number is extracted. A Lasgun cannot hurt a Marine in Deathwatch. It's max damage is 13. Minimum sink for a Marine is 14 (average is 16). That's why you have Hordes. A mag 20 Horde can get 23 damage, a Mag 30+ Horde can get 33 damage with a Lasgun. Horde values do not represent individual people. A Mag 30 horde could represent a legion of 100 Orks, or it could represent 12 Firewarriors firing out disciplined volleys of fire.


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DarknessEternal wrote:So do you have a different version of the book than everyone else?

The Trait 'Touched by the Fates' was invented so that adversaries/NPC's could benefit from both Fate Points and Righteous Fury.


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daedalus-templarius wrote:It is a bit silly that some of the weapons in DH/DW can't even harm a space marine, heh.

Not really. It makes sense that some weapons just cannot hurt certain targets. If I unloaded the magazine from a Colt Carbine into the side of an Abrams, I'd do nothing to it. If you unloaded an Auto-pistol into a Marine, you'll get a lot of sparks and a lot of ricochets, but that's it.

This Thread has predictably mutated from "How strong do you like your Space Marines" to "How strong do you think they are".

In the background I prefer my Marines achieving kill ratios of hundreds to one. That kind of dominance is the purpose the serve in the background. I mean 6:1? Aren't USMC surpassing that? And Navy SEALS even more?

On the tabletop: about 3:1 of course.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
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DarknessEternal wrote:So do you have a different version of the book than everyone else?

The Trait 'Touched by the Fates' was invented so that adversaries/NPC's could benefit from both Fate Points and Righteous Fury.

They already use Righteous Fury. Find where it says they don't.

OVER 9000!!!!!!!! Gaurdsmen.

DarknessEternal wrote:They already use Righteous Fury. Find where it says they don't.

1. I don't have to. You're the one making the claim so you back it up.
2. Stop being so needlessly confrontational. If you have a quote that shows where adversaries get to use RF, then just show us.

Honestly...

IMO i think there should be more variation in the way this poll is formed. Could 6-15 guardsmen kill a space marine? Quite possibly. Is a space marine worth 6-15 guardsmen? I think they're worth far more than that.

Imagine this scenario, a planetary Governor receives two offers of aid. First offer, from 1000 guardsmen. Second offer, 100 space marines. Which would you pick? I'd pick the space marines.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not really. It makes sense that some weapons just cannot hurt certain targets. If I unloaded the magazine from a Colt Carbine into the side of an Abrams, I'd do nothing to it. If you unloaded an Auto-pistol into a Marine, you'll get a lot of sparks and a lot of ricochets, but that's it.

Well this is what this whole argument has been about, isn't it

One lasgun shouldn't really be able to do any damage to a Space Marine, but like 10 firing in disciplined volleys certainly could; but not really in Deathwatch since you need like a magnitude 20 to do any damage

If I had 10 guys firing full-auto at an Abrams, I might cause a lot of small dents. I think that 15 or so Guardsmen could take a Marine, and that could be repped by a Mag 20 Horde (remember, Mag Value =/= individual people).

In Victories of Space Marine's The Imperial Fist story, The Brother-Sergant said it himself that one space marine is worth 100 Guardsmen. Would a book lie?

A book no, but the Imperial Fists would. They're sneaky buggers!

Vaktathi wrote:A fire team (5ish) of guardsmen unloading on a Space Marine at close range should really stand a good chance of doing something nasty to him. Power armor has weaknesses.

Indeed. Specifically, the 2E AoD Codex had a fluff blurb about Marine power armour "reducing the chance of injury from most common small arms by 50-85%". Lasguns arguably are amongst the most common small arms.

The problem with DW's Horde rules is that they are really good for displaying hack&slay heroics, but fail utterly at conveying a certain sense of realism. A lasgun doesn't magically do additional damage per shot just because it is used by a 50-man-Horde. A single trooper should have a chance to land that devastating hit as well, simply because the weapon's damage profile should not change whether if it's being wielded by a single guy or an entire Company. Also, Hordes don't dodge attacks and guys drop way faster than if you'd shoot at them as individuals (any damage bypassing armour and toughness means -1 magnitude, or -2 when you're using bolt weaponry).

That's okay, though, because DW isn't about accurate portrayal. The writers themselves likened it to movies like "300", which really says it all. It's just that some players do not seem to realize this - which I think happens to be the same crowd who thinks that the Movie Marines rules are an accurate portrayal of Astartes in the fluff, despite what it says in the actual article.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not really. It makes sense that some weapons just cannot hurt certain targets. If I unloaded the magazine from a Colt Carbine into the side of an Abrams, I'd do nothing to it. If you unloaded an Auto-pistol into a Marine, you'll get a lot of sparks and a lot of ricochets, but that's it.

A 100% invulnerability against bolter shots is kinda pushing it, though. Unless we pull out the Horde rules again.

And even lasguns should have a chance to injure. Not a big one, mind you, but ... y'know.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

lol space marines cant sneak. Like you dont hear a 2 meter tall superhuman in iron armour. Most likely he is screaming: cleanse the unpure, kill all heretics and stuff like that

lolman112 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

lol space marines cant sneak. Like you dont hear a 2 meter tall superhuman in iron armour. Most likely he is screaming: cleanse the unpure, kill all heretics and stuff like that

He doesn't have to sneak. Teleport or drop pod in the center of them, then watch as the panicking guardsmen get torn open by a chainsword.

Nicholas wrote:

lolman112 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

lol space marines cant sneak. Like you dont hear a 2 meter tall superhuman in iron armour. Most likely he is screaming: cleanse the unpure, kill all heretics and stuff like that

He doesn't have to sneak. Teleport or drop pod in the center of them, then watch as the panicking guardsmen get torn open by a chainsword.

But he can. Talos does quite a lot of sneaking in both Night Lords book. The only sound he emits is the buzz of his armour whilst powered on, and even then most humans aren't going to think its from someone sneaking up on them.

iproxtaco wrote:
But he can. Talos does quite a lot of sneaking in both Night Lords book. The only sound he emits is the buzz of his armour whilst powered on, and even then most humans aren't going to think its from someone sneaking up on them.

He makes a buzzing sound and he still is trying to sneak? 8' tall, clad in metal, and now they buzz. SMs are not meant to be foot padding around. That doesn't men they can't sneak. In a battle field you can be quite sneaky well firing full auto on a rifle. (fog of war and what not) They just wouldn't be good at sneaking/infiltration. If a SM sneaks into your base, you will know it.

Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

coolyo294 wrote:Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

Well buzzing?

nomotog wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

Well buzzing?

Yup.

coolyo294 wrote:

nomotog wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

Well buzzing?

Yup.

Reminds me of splinter cell where you would sneak around in pitch black rooms well wearing glow green lights and still not get noticed even though you are the only source of light.

This topic needs it's own thread. Stealth operations in 40k.

Nicholas wrote:

He doesn't have to sneak. Teleport or drop pod in the center of them, then watch as the panicking guardsmen get torn open by a chainsword.

Or they turn and snap fire at point blank range and burn him down.

Why does everyone assume that guardsmen panic, lose their minds, and become unable to fight back when anything scary looking gets close?

I mean seriously...do these guys look like they're gonna do anything besides shoot the piss or bayonet anything that gets close, much less panic and flee?

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
But he can. Talos does quite a lot of sneaking in both Night Lords book. The only sound he emits is the buzz of his armour whilst powered on, and even then most humans aren't going to think its from someone sneaking up on them.

He makes a buzzing sound and he still is trying to sneak? 8' tall, clad in metal, and now they buzz. SMs are not meant to be foot padding around. That doesn't men they can't sneak. In a battle field you can be quite sneaky well firing full auto on a rifle. (fog of war and what not) They just wouldn't be good at sneaking/infiltration. If a SM sneaks into your base, you will know it.

He sneaks around in a penal colony prison in the dark, the buzz is the only noise. Talos and most of the other Claws aboard the ship infiltrate a fortress monastery whilst its scanners are down. They then sneak around killing servants for a few days, completely undetected.

nomotog wrote:I actually I wonder how much it cost to train a SM. They seem to do most of that themselves. They also seem to craft an maintain there own equipment. Almost like they are a self sustaining force.

They're not self sustaining, they don't manufacture their own armor, weapons, ammunition or vehicles, they depend on the Imperium for all of their mechanical toys. While they can repair most of their gear (and therefore have gear that has a longer service life), they still depend on the Imperium for resources.

Like all economic choices, there is no free lunch. How much time and energy is spent on a world dedicated to producing Space Marines that could be better spent training, equipping, or feeding Guardsmen?

However, there are other reasons for training and keeping Space Marines. Most importantly, because they're a different tool than the Guard and are better at certain things. A million guardsmen may be able to land on a planet and take out the planetary governor to enforce compliance, or you could just drop a squad of SM in the governor's mansion and take out the problem at it's source. If the planet is beyond saving, then it doesn't make sense to try to occupy the planet with SM.

biccat wrote:

nomotog wrote:I actually I wonder how much it cost to train a SM. They seem to do most of that themselves. They also seem to craft an maintain there own equipment. Almost like they are a self sustaining force.

They're not self sustaining, they don't manufacture their own armor, weapons, ammunition or vehicles, they depend on the Imperium for all of their mechanical toys. While they can repair most of their gear (and therefore have gear that has a longer service life), they still depend on the Imperium for resources.

Like all economic choices, there is no free lunch. How much time and energy is spent on a world dedicated to producing Space Marines that could be better spent training, equipping, or feeding Guardsmen?

However, there are other reasons for training and keeping Space Marines. Most importantly, because they're a different tool than the Guard and are better at certain things. A million guardsmen may be able to land on a planet and take out the planetary governor to enforce compliance, or you could just drop a squad of SM in the governor's mansion and take out the problem at it's source. If the planet is beyond saving, then it doesn't make sense to try to occupy the planet with SM.

I doubt that the amount of equipment that is produced for the Spess Muhreens is particularly high. Many chapters can produce their own basic vehicles as well as guns and probably even power armour.
Even those who can't do this won't need particularly large amounts of equipment ( i mean, look at their pitiful vehicles numbers. a few dozen Rhinos + Razorbacks, perhaps 2-3 dozen tanks and a few thousand guns....that's laughable ) In fact i am fairly certain that a single Forgeworld would be able to produce all the equipment ( with the exception of a chapter's naval assets of course ) for every single marine chapter and still has plenty of industrial resources left.

Why are we comparing space marines to guardsmen? Thats like hulk hogan with a chainsaw and an mp5 vs the biggest nerd on your local school.
Imperial guard is the only army with iron disciplin and looks like the nazis and sovjets. Stylish

lolman112 wrote:Why are we comparing space marines to guardsmen? Thats like hulk hogan with a chainsaw and an mp5 vs the biggest nerd on your local school.
Imperial guard is the only army with iron disciplin and looks like the nazis and sovjets. Stylish

We are also comparing them to cats. And the cats have the most votes.

Vaktathi wrote:Or they turn and snap fire at point blank range and burn him down.

Why does everyone assume that guardsmen panic, lose their minds, and become unable to fight back when anything scary looking gets close?

I mean seriously...do these guys look like they're gonna do anything besides shoot the piss or bayonet anything that gets close, much less panic and flee?

It's not so much that, it's more like the average guardsman is a piece of crap compared to anything short of a Gretchin on the battlefields of 40k.

Las-rounds aren't even particularly likely to kill an Ork Boy in the fluff unless they get a headshot, in CC the Marine is easily the more dominant foe compared to the guardsmen.

Vaktathi wrote: Or they turn and snap fire at point blank range and burn him down.

Why does everyone assume that guardsmen panic, lose their minds, and become unable to fight back when anything scary looking gets close?

I mean seriously...do these guys look like they're gonna do anything besides shoot the piss or bayonet anything that gets close, much less panic and flee?

Those guys happen to be the most bad arsed IG out there, hardly average.

your typical guardsmen was recruited without his consent(although he is often willing), given several months of target practice and drills in the hold of a space ship, and then arrives at a battlefield where his chance of surviving his first battle is fairly slim. those that do survive learn fast, but they hardly make up the majority.


and I don't know about you, but if a half ton Demi-god wielding a chainsaw suddenly slammed down besides me I would probably either run away like an olympic champ or faint dead away.

A bit stronger than I like my coffee.

It takes a couple of hours to get it down. Usually, after brewing it, the coffee takes flight and tries to get outside. The last time, it managed to get out one of the open windows and mangled a few bike riders down the street. I arrived just before it got to the Little League field, and managed to bring it down with a couple of rounds from my elephant gun.

Nowadays, we usually just stick a claymore mine in front of the pot. It's remarkable how well we're now able to quickly remove the shrapnel.

biccat wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

Well, the whole premise of the thread is a bit naff.

How many Guardsmen would it take to topple a well defended hive city? Hundreds of thousands, inlcuding armour and support mechanisms and Imperial Navy resources.

How many Marines would it take to topple the same city?

Ten.

The 'value' of the Astartes rests in their deployment methods and ability as shock troopers. Where the Guard have to bludgeon their way in through the front gates the Marines can deploy directly onto their target. At range, they are just another grunt with a gun, worth maybe a handful of Imperial Guard troopers. But deployed to the right place at the right time, they are worth more than entire regiments.

It's the difference between an Imperial cruiser battering down the shields of an enemy ship, then slowly pummelling it into pieces, or a single squad of Terminators teleporting directly onto the enemy bridge.

Thats why this thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because its not giving the question any frame of reference.

biccat wrote:


Like all economic choices, there is no free lunch. How much time and energy is spent on a world dedicated to producing Space Marines that could be better spent training, equipping, or feeding Guardsmen?
.

zero time and zero energy.
Plus, we know that the IoM has billions of regiments of IG and these are enough so they are free to spent whatever they please somewhere else. Is there a reason to ignore the independece of organzations in the IoM?

When you think about it, the IoM's recrutement rate isn't one of an entitiy on a war footing at all.
Why should the crappy take on scale the authors seem to have be different when it comes to economy?

I'd say the picture of the adeptus astartes in the HH series is closer to the "reality" than some other sources.

Hows a marine gonna survive a hundred guardsman shooting his genetically modified a** of?

Personslly, I was borrowing a SM from a friend for referance, and my cat walks into my room. now normally, all of my models, even my gory nids, or communist guardsmen don't even phase her, she was transfixed by this one, crappily painted SM, then she failed her morale check and fled into another room. so I have to give it to one excited cat.

On the question of how strong I -like- my Space Marines?

Very strong. If I'm reading about a Space Marine, or a squad or even Chapter of Space Marines, I don't want to know about that one guy who got blown apart by the sniper with a lasgun and alot of luck. I want to read about a squad descending on high on jump-packs into a large group and ripping them apart with chainsword, combat knife and bolter, or whatever the hell else they've got. I want to hear about the Space Marine who climbed a Carnifex and slammed his chainsword through the top of it's head (The Assault Marine sync-kill in DoWII), not that guy who's armor wasn't properly maintained, failed, and he took a round straight through his brain.

Admittedly, I am a Space Marine 'fanboi'. I legitimately enjoy their fluff (Coming from a DnD background, I always enjoyed the crusading knight, although I enjoyed the powerful Mage more, and the Marines satisfy both those), and find them far more fascinating than anything else out there in the Warhammer Universe (Although I do enjoy the other aspects, just not as much).

On the question of how strong I -think- Space Marines are in a comparison to the Imperial Guard (Based on fluff, not tabletop):

It depends on the regiment, the situation, and far too many other things for me to give a flat number.

In a straight out firefight? It would depend on the regiment, and the training. If it's a regiment of unseasoned men, or men with no real training...a single marine could probably easily take a couple of squads no problem. I imagine there would be a severe breakdown in disciplined fire as that 7+ foot tall guy in massive armor you've been trying to bring down for the last hundred meters or so just keeps on coming, while blowing your friends and squadmates apart all around you with a gun that he totes around in one hand but it looks like it would take two for you to even lift, let alone fire, and a roaring chainsword in the other hand. A regiment of seasoned men trained from a young age (I.E Cadians)? Probably a squad, maybe slightly more. Their fire would be all around better, and I doubt they'd lose too much discipline while the rest of the squad went down, but they are still kicking around a lasgun which doesn't have a large chance of doing anything against ceramite, against a moving target who can probably read their shots quite well...and once he makes close-combat it's all over.

Pitting one man against an indeterminate amount of guardsmen in a city-sprawl over a longer period of time? Once again, it depends on the regiment and the length and depth of their training, but I'd say at least 30-40 men no matter the regiment for a rank and file Astartes. Running around picking off small groups, weakening morale.....even if at the beginning he's picking off stragglers from patrols, that guy who needs to take a piss, that shot from the window 500m down the road and he's gone before you even get close....the more mounting deaths, the greater the apprehension becomes, the easier job he has of it against disheartened and dis-spirited men. Some regiments would obviously fare better than others, but I think even Cadians/Mordians/Catachans/etc. can feel fear.

Of course, these numbers change again if you place a squad against a set amount of Guardsmen, the ratio going up, and even more if it's a company against a regiment.

On the question of why would the Imperium train Astartes if they're only the stand-up equal of 10-20 well-trained Guardsmen?

There's numerous reasons.

First, they're training someone to the point where they can guarantee they won't run in fear, they won't lose potency as the enemy approaches, they won't lose their minds fighting daemons and other horrors....and they're giving all this training to a man who was already the pinnacle of human physical perfection and has been further enhanced into a super-human killing machine, a killing machine who can withstand things that would kill a normal human, get up and keep fighting. Then they're training this killing machine to an absurd level where it can make shots we would deem impossible, and kill a man in a single well placed blow with a fist.

Then they're giving these guys who will stand their ground and fight everytime all their best toys. They're giving them the best armor, the best weapons, great ships....further enhancing their bad-assery, and just what they're capable of.

Then, finally, they're training their minds. They're using those enhanced cognitive functions of their minds to teach them tactics that would baffle 99.9% of Imperial Commanders, and how to process battlefield information in a heartbeat and plan the most efficient use of resources. They're training them in shock tactics, in using a single squad inserted in the right position to fulfill an objective that would take hundreds of guardsmen, to fall out of the sky in drop-pods/jump-packs/Thunderhawks etc. that will get them past most conventional air-defenses and sow havoc in the middle of an enemy camp, slaughtering large portions of the force before they even begin to respond.....they're being trained in tactics that use Astartes in such a way that it doesn't matter if they could only take 10 or so in a standup firefight...the entire strikeforce is hitting on section of the line and hitting it fast, punching through and wiping it out before the rest of the force can even respond...and then moving in as the line falls apart.

They are the scalpel to the Imperial Guards Hammer. You can beat a man to death with your fists but it takes alot less effort and is alot more efficient to open up the jugular, any other major artery or any major organ, and alot quicker with less damage to yourself.

Regardless of how strong they are, they can't climb stairs or fit through most tunnels. I mean, just make an entire underground heretical bunker for humans and you'll never have to worry about space marines.
Oh and put it in the second floor.

A Melta will sort that out. Or a fist. Walls offer little opposition.

Enjoy having to melta every inch you intend to walk through.

They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

People assume that because Space Marines are so heavy, they would be unable to climb stairs meant for humans.

I'm in the 15-30 range because I think it marks a nice balance between the range and melee. In melee The marine is likely to defeat more, at range however I give the multitude of shots the advantage.

Fluff thinking:

We have plenty of fluff showing guard fighting chaos marines, there was a group of 3 or 4 in one of the Cain novels, Cain was "lucky" even the book admits to that when he killed two of them, and a small group of Chaos SM plowed through 100+ cultists before death final overtook them.

On the other hand we have stories of Marine Units holding out despite all, thinking "Rynn's World" where the guard were almost useless but a hand full of Marines and an unmanned Landraider won the day...sort of. ( I doubt Cantor thought of it as a win.)

But a cultist isn't a guardsman.

Game thinking:

Its just hard to figure on these because of the unit thinking. One marine on his own is not unstoppable, I would not put one marine up against a guard unit in a game. One unit of marines however is very difficult to bring down an I have seen them wipe off a full guard unit in one turn. Guard are the same, 1 character is a dead-man, a unit can take heavy losses and still be effective.

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

Same goes for against any troops adequately equipped with demolition devices. However, they have to get to the bunker in one piece which is usually the hard part, especially considering bunkers usually are in groups together with other bunkers/pillboxes/etc that can cover each other. Krak grenades won't hurt a solid bunker unless they're already inside it and they're wiring up a ton of them.

Do you not think that the point is irrelevant? If you want to gauge a ratio of Space Marines to guard, putting the latter in a defensible bunker isn't exactly fair.

iproxtaco wrote:Do you not think that the point is irrelevant? If you want to gauge a ratio of Space Marines to guard, putting the latter in a defensible bunker isn't exactly fair.

Well we could always go a naked SM with his combat knife versus a naked guardsman with his combat knife. But that would just be embarrassingly one sided. After all the SM combat knife is probably the same length as the guardsman torso and head

I like them strong enough to pick up a Sister of Battle in power armor and carry her wounded body away from the fighting as bullets fly past, pinging off his armor, and explosions tear holes in the ground all around them. His Brother Marines and her Sisters of Battle cover their retreat. The Sister of Battle would of course be killing things with her bolter one-handed as she's carried. All this happens in slow motion, of course. ^_^ And maybe some down-tempo music playing, like Mondo Bongo. The whole scene would be a la the final battle scene of the movie, "Mr. and Mrs. Smith."

Pouncey wrote:I like them strong enough to pick up a Sister of Battle in power armor and carry her wounded body away from the fighting as bullets fly past, pinging off his armor, and explosions tear holes in the ground all around them. His Brother Marines and her Sisters of Battle cover their retreat. All this happens in slow motion, of course. ^_^ And maybe some down-tempo music playing, like Mondo Bongo. The whole scene would be a la the final battle scene of the movie, "Mr. and Mrs. Smith."

What?

Void__Dragon wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I like them strong enough to pick up a Sister of Battle in power armor and carry her wounded body away from the fighting as bullets fly past, pinging off his armor, and explosions tear holes in the ground all around them. His Brother Marines and her Sisters of Battle cover their retreat. All this happens in slow motion, of course. ^_^ And maybe some down-tempo music playing, like Mondo Bongo. The whole scene would be a la the final battle scene of the movie, "Mr. and Mrs. Smith."

What?

I don't understand the question.

Neither do I.

iproxtaco wrote:Do you not think that the point is irrelevant? If you want to gauge a ratio of Space Marines to guard, putting the latter in a defensible bunker isn't exactly fair.

Given that people seem to likely be assuming that SM's are always having teleport/drop pod abilities, meltabombs, etc, not so much

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you not think that the point is irrelevant? If you want to gauge a ratio of Space Marines to guard, putting the latter in a defensible bunker isn't exactly fair.

Given that people seem to likely be assuming that SM's are always having teleport/drop pod abilities, meltabombs, etc, not so much

The two will never be on even footing, the SM is designed to be better from the ground up. You give each a one shot pistol put them in a duel at ten paces at highnoon and the marine will still win, he may end up with an injury but he will survive, I can't be certain about the guard.

I generally like my SM's with two cream and three sugar, to answer the thread title.

But fluff-wise, probably 50 GEQ depending on who they are.
Tabletop-wise, 5-6 GEQ.

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Jollydevil wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Nope,

a Marine in a Jump Pack is half a ton.


you might be thinking of Terminator armor.

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

Now I can just imagine a squad of Space Marines spycrabbing their way through a human sized bunker.

Grey Templar wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Nope,

a Marine in a Jump Pack is half a ton.


you might be thinking of Terminator armor.

How dose a SM in a jump pack weigh less then one without?

.

As strong as my players need them to be to bring about victory in that campaign

Coolyo294 wrote:Now I can just imagine a squad of Space Marines spycrabbing their way through a human sized bunker.

sigged

I like my marines tough enough to make eye contact with Chuck Norris and live.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Nope,

a Marine in a Jump Pack is half a ton.


you might be thinking of Terminator armor.

How dose a SM in a jump pack weigh less then one without?

Half a ton is 1000 pounds. Marines seem to be somewhere in the 600-800 pound range.

I voted one really excited cat.

I voted "one really excited cat" as the question is too simplified to justify any other answer.

Kaldor wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.

Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

They do?

im2randomghgh wrote:As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.

Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

lol, I didn't overlook anything. A marine simply can't fit through a small tunnel, where smaller warriors could.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.
Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

Jollydevil wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.
Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Jollydevil wrote: Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Really?

I'm talking about deliberately small bunker access tunnels. Say, 24" wide, 24" high. And maybe a hundred metres or more long, with bends and twists. Through reinforced concrete. A marine would have trouble fitting through a regular sized doorway, he'd have to turn sideways and duck, and waddle through. Theres no way he's fitting through a narrow tunnel or corridor, and he's not just going to punch through metres of reinforce bunker material. He'd have enough trouble navigating through buildings built for regular humans, let alone one built to deliberately keep ovesized enemies out.

Kaldor wrote:

Jollydevil wrote: Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Really?

I'm talking about deliberately small bunker access tunnels. Say, 24" wide, 24" high. And maybe a hundred metres or more long, with bends and twists. Through reinforced concrete. A marine would have trouble fitting through a regular sized doorway, he'd have to turn sideways and duck, and waddle through. Theres no way he's fitting through a narrow tunnel or corridor, and he's not just going to punch through metres of reinforce bunker material. He'd have enough trouble navigating through buildings built for regular humans, let alone one built to deliberately keep ovesized enemies out.

Thats what explosives are for.

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.

Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

lol, I didn't overlook anything. A marine simply can't fit through a small tunnel, where smaller warriors could.

You also couldn't fit any big tunnel dinging equipment. If your making a base you have to make the halls wide enough to fit your generators, computer banks, all your other big stuff. You could do rat holes that are tiny though.

Smashing through walls packed full of who knows what conduits/tubes/pipes/etc on a starship with who knows what on the other side is a terrible, terrible idea.

"Hey, lets blast through this wall"

"Well, we just flooded the deck with superheated plasma..."



"Hey, lets blast through this wall"

"Well, great, we all got sucked into space"



"Hey, lets blast through this wall"

"Well, there went primary power and life support for this section, none of the doors will open and the bulkheads have sealed and the ship is purging this section"




"Hey, lets blast through this wall"

"Well, that apparently was a munitions magazine"





"Hey, lets blast through this wall"

"Well, apparently there's a squad with half a dozen meltacutters sitting right there"

Also, they have librarians who can just brain-pop everyone.

Kaldor wrote:

Jollydevil wrote: Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Really?

I'm talking about deliberately small bunker access tunnels. Say, 24" wide, 24" high. And maybe a hundred metres or more long, with bends and twists. Through reinforced concrete. A marine would have trouble fitting through a regular sized doorway, he'd have to turn sideways and duck, and waddle through. Theres no way he's fitting through a narrow tunnel or corridor, and he's not just going to punch through metres of reinforce bunker material. He'd have enough trouble navigating through buildings built for regular humans, let alone one built to deliberately keep ovesized enemies out.

A normal human would have trouble fitting through there, and with gear that would be pretty darn impossable.

I wouldn't make a tunnel that my soldiers would have major trouble fitting through just so I could inconvenience some superhumans.

If a bunker like this was encountered, they would probably pump it full of poison gas or nuke it from orbit.

Talking Cadians and not conscripts of crappy PDF, 1 marine is about able to kill his way through 10 guys, but it is a challenge.

Conscripts or poorer troops, he's got a better advantage because he'll terrify the poor buggers.

A traitor marine should be MUCH scarier though, especially one worshipping the ruinous powers.

Marines are great because they are power at a point. You can deploy a small squad that can operate fairly independantly in insanely harsh terrain. They can fight in environments no Gaurdsman could survive.

It takes an average of 57 Lasrifle shots to just WOUND a space marine in power armor, and that's not accounting for cover.
They'd have to shoot the eyeball, or the crotchpad from an angle to do anything.

A bolt from a boltgun has explosives and can penetrate flak jacket armor... that means if you get hit by one it will go either straight through you, or knock you down then explode you into a red mist.

Now... comparing the an entire Imperial Guard Regiment to a Space marine Chapter... Space Marines are f**kd. One word: Basilisks. More words: battle barges, baneblades, titans, etc.

In the book, a good analogy GW used was that the Imperial Guard is like a sledgehammer, unstoppable but slow, and the Space Marines is like a Surgical Knife, precise, effective, but can't deal with big things by itself.

moarmoarmoar wrote:It takes an average of 57 Lasrifle shots to just WOUND a space marine in power armor,

Really? My marines lose too lamegun fire alot

IRC, it takes about 36 shots too down a marine with feel no pain.

Where does the 57 come from?

Toastedandy wrote:

moarmoarmoar wrote:It takes an average of 57 Lasrifle shots to just WOUND a space marine in power armor,

Really? My marines lose too lamegun fire alot

IRC, it takes about 36 shots too down a marine with feel no pain.

Where does the 57 come from?

Nevermind, that was from the top of my head

Typically, one would assume a 'shot' from a rapid fire weapon be like a burst of three bullets, more or less (i don't think a gun that can shoot 2 bullets in close range would be considered 'rapid fire')

Using bursts of 3, here's how many shots to kill 1 space marine.

1/2 chance for a burst to hit, 1/3 to wound, 1/3 to go through the armor. That's 1/18 chance for a burst to kill. That's around 54 las-shots. Idk, depends how you look at it. I feel like I should start a topic about this kind of stuff...

To be fair, in real life it often takes hundreds of thousands of bullets being fired to result in a single enemy casualty on many battlefields. Armies will throw thousands of tons of ammunition at each other to kill a few hundred soldiers. Small arms fire is also one of the least likely thing to kill a soldier on the battlefield. Artillery actually kills more than any other weapon historically, with crew served weapons and airstrikes following.

Hence

"Though the guards may sleep and the ships may lie at anchor, our foes know full well that the big guns never tire..."-The Tyrant of Badab.

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
Very strong. If I'm reading about a Space Marine, or a squad or even Chapter of Space Marines, I don't want to know about that one guy who got blown apart by the sniper with a lasgun and alot of luck. I want to read about a squad descending on high on jump-packs into a large group and ripping them apart with chainsword, combat knife and bolter, or whatever the hell else they've got. I want to hear about the Space Marine who climbed a Carnifex and slammed his chainsword through the top of it's head (The Assault Marine sync-kill in DoWII), not that guy who's armor wasn't properly maintained, failed, and he took a round straight through his brain.

Admittedly, I am a Space Marine 'fanboi'. I legitimately enjoy their fluff (Coming from a DnD background, I always enjoyed the crusading knight, although I enjoyed the powerful Mage more, and the Marines satisfy both those), and find them far more fascinating than anything else out there in the Warhammer Universe (Although I do enjoy the other aspects, just not as much).

On the question of how strong I -think- Space Marines are in a comparison to the Imperial Guard (Based on fluff, not tabletop):

It depends on the regiment, the situation, and far too many other things for me to give a flat number.

In a straight out firefight? It would depend on the regiment, and the training. If it's a regiment of unseasoned men, or men with no real training...a single marine could probably easily take a couple of squads no problem. I imagine there would be a severe breakdown in disciplined fire as that 7+ foot tall guy in massive armor you've been trying to bring down for the last hundred meters or so just keeps on coming, while blowing your friends and squadmates apart all around you with a gun that he totes around in one hand but it looks like it would take two for you to even lift, let alone fire, and a roaring chainsword in the other hand. A regiment of seasoned men trained from a young age (I.E Cadians)? Probably a squad, maybe slightly more. Their fire would be all around better, and I doubt they'd lose too much discipline while the rest of the squad went down, but they are still kicking around a lasgun which doesn't have a large chance of doing anything against ceramite, against a moving target who can probably read their shots quite well...and once he makes close-combat it's all over.

Pitting one man against an indeterminate amount of guardsmen in a city-sprawl over a longer period of time? Once again, it depends on the regiment and the length and depth of their training, but I'd say at least 30-40 men no matter the regiment for a rank and file Astartes. Running around picking off small groups, weakening morale.....even if at the beginning he's picking off stragglers from patrols, that guy who needs to take a piss, that shot from the window 500m down the road and he's gone before you even get close....the more mounting deaths, the greater the apprehension becomes, the easier job he has of it against disheartened and dis-spirited men. Some regiments would obviously fare better than others, but I think even Cadians/Mordians/Catachans/etc. can feel fear.

Of course, these numbers change again if you place a squad against a set amount of Guardsmen, the ratio going up, and even more if it's a company against a regiment.

On the question of why would the Imperium train Astartes if they're only the stand-up equal of 10-20 well-trained Guardsmen?

There's numerous reasons.

First, they're training someone to the point where they can guarantee they won't run in fear, they won't lose potency as the enemy approaches, they won't lose their minds fighting daemons and other horrors....and they're giving all this training to a man who was already the pinnacle of human physical perfection and has been further enhanced into a super-human killing machine, a killing machine who can withstand things that would kill a normal human, get up and keep fighting. Then they're training this killing machine to an absurd level where it can make shots we would deem impossible, and kill a man in a single well placed blow with a fist.

Then they're giving these guys who will stand their ground and fight everytime all their best toys. They're giving them the best armor, the best weapons, great ships....further enhancing their bad-assery, and just what they're capable of.

Then, finally, they're training their minds. They're using those enhanced cognitive functions of their minds to teach them tactics that would baffle 99.9% of Imperial Commanders, and how to process battlefield information in a heartbeat and plan the most efficient use of resources. They're training them in shock tactics, in using a single squad inserted in the right position to fulfill an objective that would take hundreds of guardsmen, to fall out of the sky in drop-pods/jump-packs/Thunderhawks etc. that will get them past most conventional air-defenses and sow havoc in the middle of an enemy camp, slaughtering large portions of the force before they even begin to respond.....they're being trained in tactics that use Astartes in such a way that it doesn't matter if they could only take 10 or so in a standup firefight...the entire strikeforce is hitting on section of the line and hitting it fast, punching through and wiping it out before the rest of the force can even respond...and then moving in as the line falls apart.

They are the scalpel to the Imperial Guards Hammer. You can beat a man to death with your fists but it takes alot less effort and is alot more efficient to open up the jugular, any other major artery or any major organ, and alot quicker with less damage to yourself.

I think this sounds about right. Imperial Guard are the hammer, Space Marines are the scalpel.

In a fight between X amount of Guardsmen vs a Space Marine, would the Space Marine really engage them from a distance and allow then to get a couple of turns of shooting on him, or would he ambush them, drop into the midst of them, and start carving them apart with chainsword/bolt pistol? Admittedly, if his ambush failed and he had 15-20 lasguns pointed at him, he might have to make a quick retreat/reassess before attacking again.

I think this thread is about over. It had a nice life though. I think we all did learn something, like how many people are wired to think that a persons worth is measured by how who they can beat up. I never intended it to be about SMs fighting IG, but you know that changed in the first few replies and lets just go with it.

It's kind of nice to see the numbers here. We learned that the a fair number of people thought this idea a joke and picked the joke answer. Outside of that though, things seem to be crumpled at 6-15 and 50-100. Seems like there is two completely different cannons there.

We should be off to compare other things now. Have more fun with it and what not.

Da Boss wrote:Talking Cadians and not conscripts of crappy PDF, 1 marine is about able to kill his way through 10 guys, but it is a challenge.

Conscripts or poorer troops, he's got a better advantage because he'll terrify the poor buggers.

A traitor marine should be MUCH scarier though, especially one worshipping the ruinous powers.

Marines are great because they are power at a point. You can deploy a small squad that can operate fairly independantly in insanely harsh terrain. They can fight in environments no Gaurdsman could survive.

A SoB is probably able to kill ten guardsmen, marines would kill many more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

moarmoarmoar wrote:It takes an average of 57 Lasrifle shots to just WOUND a space marine in power armor, and that's not accounting for cover.
They'd have to shoot the eyeball, or the crotchpad from an angle to do anything.

A bolt from a boltgun has explosives and can penetrate flak jacket armor... that means if you get hit by one it will go either straight through you, or knock you down then explode you into a red mist.

Now... comparing the an entire Imperial Guard Regiment to a Space marine Chapter... Space Marines are f**kd. One word: Basilisks. More words: battle barges, baneblades, titans, etc.

In the book, a good analogy GW used was that the Imperial Guard is like a sledgehammer, unstoppable but slow, and the Space Marines is like a Surgical Knife, precise, effective, but can't deal with big things by itself.

Did you just say 1 regiment > 1 chapter? Really? Most regiments are around 1-2 thousand max, so unless you think marine and guardsmen are evenly matched...

and titans are NOT part of the guard in any sense whatsoever, baneblades are maybe 1 for every couple hundred regiments. And battle Barges are astartes vessels...