The shockwaves from their IMPACTS ripped holes in the MONASTERY. I can't tell if this is bad as the Emperor and Russ moving as a "blur" when they fought. Either way, it comes off as stupidly anime-listic and full of weebo catering.
What do you guys think about this power level?

Well powerful as in, 'it's over 9000!?' or power as in political power. Despite his strength, I think Vulkan/Guilliman could probably muster more political power to deal with him.

Magnus was crazy psychic powerful, too.

terranarc wrote:
The shockwaves from their IMPACTS ripped holes in the MONASTERY. I can't tell if this is bad as the Emperor and Russ moving as a "blur" when they fought. Either way, it comes off as stupidly anime-listic and full of weebo catering.
What do you guys think about this power level?

Magnus could kill Titans under his own power, and has done so on at least two occasions.

Fulgrim could cut in half Wave Serpents and crushed the neck of an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands.

Hell, normal Eldar move so fast as to be blurs to normal humans.

This is nothing out of the ordinary for a Primarch.

Hell, Draigo destroyed the fething Impossible City of Tzeentch, and burned down the Garden of Nurgle.

The C'tan could easily destroy star systems under their own power.

Lion, as a Primarch, is powerful, but not the strongest, and he is certainly not the strongest character.

Yea not so much. The Big E could snuff him out like he did Horus.

The strongest primarch? Lets not go there....

terranarc wrote:
The shockwaves from their IMPACTS ripped holes in the MONASTERY. I can't tell if this is bad as the Emperor and Russ moving as a "blur" when they fought. Either way, it comes off as stupidly anime-listic and full of weebo catering.
What do you guys think about this power level?

Weebo catering? Anime-listic? Wasn't a lot of this lore written before these things really, became a thing?

Also, Primarchs are the "children" of the Emperor, what did you expect here? Pretty much all of them have some ridiculous stories about feats of strength.

Dreadwinter wrote:Weebo catering? Anime-listic? Wasn't a lot of this lore written before these things really, became a thing?

Also, Primarchs are the "children" of the Emperor, what did you expect here? Pretty much all of them have some ridiculous stories about feats of strength.

Which can be taken literally

Leman Russ destroyed a titan with good ole' fashion fisticuffs.

DarknessEternal wrote:Leman Russ destroyed a titan with good ole' fashion fisticuffs.

Huh, got a source for this?

I really see so much of this as legends the Chapters and the IoM has spun through the ages.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Weebo catering? Anime-listic? Wasn't a lot of this lore written before these things really, became a thing?

Also, Primarchs are the "children" of the Emperor, what did you expect here? Pretty much all of them have some ridiculous stories about feats of strength.

Which can be taken literally

Not one bit of it implies that it's not a literal account of what happens. I mean, you don't see people denying draigo as "propagandistic"

Void__Dragon wrote:Hell, Draigo destroyed the fething Impossible City of Tzeentch, and burned down the Garden of Nurgle

This is Draigo fluff, lets not even go there. In my books one man no matter how superhuman or psychic could never ever take on any type of god and win. For me, that is all BS.

Void__Dragon wrote:

terranarc wrote:
The shockwaves from their IMPACTS ripped holes in the MONASTERY. I can't tell if this is bad as the Emperor and Russ moving as a "blur" when they fought. Either way, it comes off as stupidly anime-listic and full of weebo catering.
What do you guys think about this power level?

Magnus could kill Titans under his own power, and has done so on at least two occasions.

Fulgrim could cut in half Wave Serpents and crushed the neck of an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands.

Hell, normal Eldar move so fast as to be blurs to normal humans.

This is nothing out of the ordinary for a Primarch.

Hell, Draigo destroyed the fething Impossible City of Tzeentch, and burned down the Garden of Nurgle.

The C'tan could easily destroy star systems under their own power.

Lion, as a Primarch, is powerful, but not the strongest, and he is certainly not the strongest character.

And Calgar hit Avatar of Kaine in the face and destroy him.

Mephisto tear apart Carnifex with his own bare hands.

Varnus killed the Grater Daemon of Khorne with one hit from his Crozus Arcanum ( you know, the one you need 10 Grey Knight Terminators fighting for several minuters... and he done that in 2 seconds ).

Oh, and O'Kais Fire Warrior killed 5 Tactical Mairnes in CC in "Fire Warrior".

In 40k - gak happenes.

He might not be the most powerful but he is the biggest wimp.

Sucker punching Russ when he'd realised how silly the fight between the pair was.

And in the now retconned history, stabbing the defencless and uncaring Russ in the chest with a sword when he confronted him in the aftermath of the battle for Terra. He intended to kill but the Lion realised his mistake in time.

Or maybe it means the lion is one of the weakest Primarchs, as a space marine could be elevated by chaos to a power level matching him.
the planet was been torn apart wasn't it? So they weren't even causing that much damage, it was just happening around them.

Seriously, the power level of the Primarchs and characters seems to fluctuate so much in the fluff that many could claim to be most powerful.

Draigo probably would win though. He's the best. I think he's the star child.

Kijamon wrote:He might not be the most powerful but he is the biggest wimp.

Sucker punching Russ when he'd realised how silly the fight between the pair was.

And in the now retconned history, stabbing the defencless and uncaring Russ in the chest with a sword when he confronted him in the aftermath of the battle for Terra. He intended to kill but the Lion realised his mistake in time.

Leman Russ started the fight with a sucker punch. The Lion ended it with one.

Since when is Draigo a primarch?

snake wrote:Since when is Draigo a primarch?

Check the title, it says "primarch/character," that's why I mentioned non-Primarchs like Draigo.

My bad. I think any primarch would own draigo though. Theres a reason they can't be represented on the tabletop and he can.

snake wrote:My bad. I think any primarch would own draigo though. Theres a reason they can't be represented on the tabletop and he can.

You're not particularly familiar with Draigo's fluff then.

He's already defeated Mortarion, Daemon Primarch, alone and unaided, and carved the name of the original Supreme Grey Master of the Grey Knights on his heart.

I think the primary reason the Primarch's don't have representation on the tabletop is because they would never be able to live up to their fanclub's expectations.

Stats for Angron have been provided before in a White Dwarf. I don't have the scan on me, unfortunately, but he wasn't an instant-win unit.

Ironsight wrote:I think the primary reason the Primarch's don't have representation on the tabletop is because they would never be able to live up to their fanclub's expectations.

Stats for Angron have been provided before in a White Dwarf. I don't have the scan on me, unfortunately, but he wasn't an instant-win unit.

For anyone who is interested, the rules are right here, 3rd page of pdf:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2110495_The_Battle_for_Armageddon

He is a bit underwhelming, IMO.

Brother Coa wrote: Oh, and O'Kais Fire Warrior killed 5 Tactical Mairnes in CC in "Fire Warrior".

He did more than that he took out multiple chaos marines, demons, a dreadnaught, a demon prince, and a titan. If all of the tau were half as tough as him they would be unstopable.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Ironsight wrote:I think the primary reason the Primarch's don't have representation on the tabletop is because they would never be able to live up to their fanclub's expectations.

Stats for Angron have been provided before in a White Dwarf. I don't have the scan on me, unfortunately, but he wasn't an instant-win unit.

For anyone who is interested, the rules are right here, 3rd page of pdf:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2110495_The_Battle_for_Armageddon

He is a bit underwhelming, IMO.

OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

Void__Dragon wrote:

snake wrote:My bad. I think any primarch would own draigo though. Theres a reason they can't be represented on the tabletop and he can.

You're not particularly familiar with Draigo's fluff then.

He's already defeated Mortarion, Daemon Primarch, alone and unaided, and carved the name of the original Supreme Grey Master of the Grey Knights on his heart.

I now understand the nerd rage at Matt Ward.

Obrek wrote:
OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

It was just the nail in the coffin of the super-god-primarch fanboys.

snake wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

snake wrote:My bad. I think any primarch would own draigo though. Theres a reason they can't be represented on the tabletop and he can.

You're not particularly familiar with Draigo's fluff then.

He's already defeated Mortarion, Daemon Primarch, alone and unaided, and carved the name of the original Supreme Grey Master of the Grey Knights on his heart.

I now understand the nerd rage at Matt Ward.

According to Draigo fluff he also went back in time, pimp slapped Horus, and tattooed his name on Horus' lower back as a tramp stamp. Draigo fluff isn't really fluff, it's just reaffirming Draigo's position as the Chuck Norris of the 41st millennium.

in terms of a head to head IF magnus powers are what he brags then he would be otherwise you can tell logar is weak as hell and fulgrim beat on of his brothers but they never really have a brawl so you wont be able to determine anything

DarknessEternal wrote:

Obrek wrote:
OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

It was just the nail in the coffin of the super-god-primarch fanboys.

Or a poor attempt at rules, or a result of needing to scale down fluff to fit into the game (akin to Space (v.s. Movie) Marines)? Look at the gods that are C'tan; they're arguably worse than Angron in-game, but are gods in the background.

Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Leman Russ destroyed a titan with good ole' fashion fisticuffs.

Huh, got a source for this?

Very old source IIRC. Would probably be considered by many to be outdated/void.

As far as being tuff, didn't the Lion come close to getting his butt handed to him by Curze in a one on one fight? I know both were beaten down to what might be considered a draw, but if you read the text, Curze appears to have gotten the better of the fight.

Just Dave wrote:Very old source IIRC. Would probably be considered by many to be outdated/void.

Can you recall the specific source, or the context? Aka was it a Space Wolf legend or a factual account?

Uhlan wrote:As far as being tuff, didn't the Lion come close to getting his butt handed to him by Curze in a one on one fight? I know both were beaten down to what might be considered a draw, but if you read the text, Curze appears to have gotten the better of the fight.

Neither was capable of fighting at the end.

And Angron's stats are perfectly fine for a game of 40k. The key to the Primarch's toughness wasn't that they were unhurtable, it was that they were unkillable unless they died immediately. They recovered from anything that didn't kill them outright.

Horus caused the imperium to split apart, albheit with help of chaos but stil... He killed another primarch and mortally wounded the emperor. Yeh thats what I call power.

Uhlan wrote:As far as being tuff, didn't the Lion come close to getting his butt handed to him by Curze in a one on one fight? I know both were beaten down to what might be considered a draw, but if you read the text, Curze appears to have gotten the better of the fight.

I wouldn't say 'butt handed to him', as you said, I'd consider it a draw.
IIRC Lion was clearly the better swordsman and martially skilled, so when Curze 'played' dirty (being logical and resourceful really), Curze got the upper hand. Although Curze had the upper hand before some DA's intervened, it was a close contest rather than 'butt handed to him' I'd say...

Void__Dragon wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Very old source IIRC. Would probably be considered by many to be outdated/void.

Can you recall the specific source, or the context? Aka was it a Space Wolf legend or a factual account?

It's not my source, you'd have to ask Darkness. As I said though, I'd consider it far too old to be relevant.

chaoslooksgood wrote:Horus caused the imperium to split apart, albheit with help of chaos but stil... He killed another primarch and mortally wounded the emperor. Yeh thats what I call power.

I'd say 'with the help of Chaos' to be the optimum word there; he wasn't a spectacularly powerful primarch otherwise IMHO. Also note that Sanguinius was pretty tired by that point and it's most likely neither Sang' or the Big E put that much effort in as they tried to reason with Horus, initially at least.

I know at one time (don't know if it was recanted) The Lion was the most brilliant Primarch tactically, tied only with Horas. The one thing that held him back was the fact that he had zero people skills, which tends to happen when you are raised by trees

Pretty sure that's from one of the DA HH books, it's at least mentioned there. Him and Luthor were a symbol of the sum of the parts being superior.

I did always enjoy that dynamic; Luthor knew how to organize people and the Lion knew how to organize battles. Together they where darn-near unstoppable.

If the Black Library books are canon then he's the most ignorant and power craving loyal primarch.

As I remember he helped attack a forge world that was controlled by Horus's traitors, discovering some titans that Horus had secretly ordered the traitor Forge leader to create a hundred years before that were never needed because the war he wanted them for had ended. Lion then gave these to another primarch that had come to aid him only it turned out that he would become a traitor primarch and took them to assist Horus. This was kept secret of course as Lion said to this Primarch if you have these then can you vote for me and persuade the other primarchs to when Horus ineviatablly dies and we need a new warmaster. This traitor primarch obviously said he'd agree, and Lion never bothered to try and defeat Horus, his force was seriously dimished (he only brought a single company anyway to that forge world) the others were fighting elsewhere so he went back to them, claiming that he didn't have enough people to help attack Horus as the other primarchs had been commanded to do, as he himself was heroically fighting to bring some world where his main force was to comply. He used this as well as an excuse to say he was the only primarch still crusading to free worlds and bring them to the Imperium, further enhancing his prospects. Fortunately that primarch turned to chaos so he failed. This was in the time, I can't remember the name when the imperium was discovering lost worlds and primarchs.

I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

Lobukia wrote:I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

I've heard this said before, where is this implied/stated?

Void__Dragon wrote:

Lobukia wrote:I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

I've heard this said before, where is this implied/stated?

Not implied at all... stated by someone who was there in Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe

I should point out that this is the plot climax of one of the best BL novels ever!

However, since the book is almost 8 years old, I can't the information as being too shocking or new to any DA fan

Lobukia wrote:I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

Yes, and he also had this wonderful bridge for sale...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Obrek wrote:
OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

It was just the nail in the coffin of the super-god-primarch fanboys.

I dunno I really like it. It fits well into the current 40k fluff to table top rules conversion. To be fair, he IS better than any bloodthirster you could field but unfortunately extremely overcosted.
I mean seriously, just a master crafted blade? Really? Everyone knows that in 5e, rerolling to hit, wound and armor penetration is the bare minimum for MCs.

terranarc wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Obrek wrote:
OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

It was just the nail in the coffin of the super-god-primarch fanboys.

I dunno I really like it. It fits well into the current 40k fluff to table top rules conversion. To be fair, he IS better than any bloodthirster you could field but unfortunately extremely overcosted.
I mean seriously, just a master crafted blade? Really? Everyone knows that in 5e, rerolling to hit, wound and armor penetration is the bare minimum for MCs.

I'd say he's pretty Damn good a little underpowered but honestly only Swarmlord, draigo and a few other are as strong as him. I think his main selling point is the god damn retinue of bloodthristers, I don't care how OP Draigo is against 12 Blood thirsters not everyone is gonna get a piece.

FlammingGaunt wrote: I think his main selling point is the god damn retinue of bloodthristers, I don't care how OP Draigo is against 12 Blood thirsters not everyone is gonna get a piece.

This whole thread I had read Bloodthirster as Bloodletter , thinking "So what?" It has just dawned on me that he was toting Greater Daemons of Khorne as a Retinue.


We need to change the Thread's Title. Aggron+12 Bloodthirsters. Most powerful Deathstar unit?

back on topic: I'd be willing to bet that the Lion was not the most powerful. They say "The Emperor Protects" for a reason.

Alpharius is obviously the most powerful.

Alpharius is the most influential, not the most powerful. A normal human almost beat him in a sword fight (though this mightn't have been him).

Some of the contenders for power in my book would be:

Fulgrim-daemon, has killed (or as good as) two primarchs.
Magnus has a lascannon to represent his eye laser.
Angron for obvious reasons.

I would have to say yes....the Lion is the best primarch.....to a DA player.

@Durza- Didn't see them writing the whole space marine rules for engagement after him....unless Guilliman's body is really Alpharius infiltrating.

I interpret fluff about the H.H. as being like the legends we have today about supposed ancient heroes like Hercules... just take them as myths based on some degree of fact (not that Hercules is... I honestly have no idea)

Soladrin wrote:Alpharius is obviously the most powerful.

For some reason I get the feeling he's the weakest.

Deathshead420 wrote:@Durza- Didn't see them writing the whole space marine rules for engagement after him....unless Guilliman's body is really Alpharius infiltrating.

Yet he was meant to change the course of the Heresy, and may have done. He's turned entire chapters of Marines to Chaos with his plans, and God-Emperor only knows what his endgame is.

Durza wrote:Alpharius is the most influential, not the most powerful. A normal human almost beat him in a sword fight (though this mightn't have been him).

Some of the contenders for power in my book would be:

Fulgrim-daemon, has killed (or as good as) two primarchs.
Magnus has a lascannon to represent his eye laser.
Angron for obvious reasons.

I disagree with Angron as a choice strength and power aren't the same. Angron would never threaten the imperium as a whole as he squanders his troops like the most idiotic of imperial guard commanders (ramming vast numbers at the enemy screaming until everyone is dead), he has no political abillity other than brute intimidation and he also fails to instil any real loyalty in his subordinates because of their nature as mindless killers.

As for Chuck Draigo I prefer to ignore almost all of his fluff on an accout of it being uber-lame, I consider keeping a primarch still long enough to carve anything on them without killing them ridiculous, i consider him a bit of a bad joke (aren't all GWs jokes pretty bad these days?) on GWs part.

I too agree with Trog... it's best to just pretend that neither Draigo nor Ward exist...

Or just Ward. It's fun to kill Draigo.

All the cool kids will tell you to hate on Draigo. And also to listen to bands you've never heard of, wear glasses with no lenses, and take stupid pictures of yourselves.

DarknessEternal wrote:All the cool kids will tell you to hate on Draigo.

There is no such thing as a cool nerd.

Saying that on a 40k forum makes me think your name is very fitting, 'Pie.

It's true nevertheless...

DarknessEternal wrote:All the cool kids will tell you to hate on Draigo. And also to listen to bands you've never heard of, wear glasses with no lenses, and take stupid pictures of yourselves.

I don't hate him, just his fluff. Though with fluff that ridiculous, I can't help but snigger a little inside when he dies.

Durza wrote:
I don't hate him, just his fluff.

I don't hate you, I just hate you? This makes me confused.

Basically, I don't mind his stats or abilities. I wouldn't even mind the fluff if it was something like 'it took twenty of the Grey Knights' finest to take down Mortarion, and of those, Draigo was the only one left standing. In vengeance, he carved the name of the old master into the daemon primarch's heart before banishing him.' But alone? Consider the amount of rotten flesh he would have had to cut through.

Durza wrote: I wouldn't even mind the fluff if it was something like 'it took twenty of the Grey Knights' finest to take down Mortarion, and of those, Draigo was the only one left standing. In vengeance, he carved the name of the old master into the daemon primarch's heart before banishing him.' But alone?

There's exactly one third of a sentence devoted to this whole encounter.

It doesn't mention he was alone or with a hundred guys. In fact, it's only 13 words.

You, and the rest of the internet, added the other "details".

So either he's a superhero for beating a daemon primarch, or he's a jerk for taking credit for beating a daemon primarch...

He(Draigo) is the face of the Grey Knights, he has to be the American Badass.

Just like Ghazzy, O'Shaserra(and O'Shovah to a lesser extent), Calgar (and his short lived Home Improvement Tv show), Vect, Eldrad, Abbadon, Lucius, Kharn, Thyphus, Ahriman, The Swarmlord, Mephiston( Dante may be the chapter Master, but Mephiston is the face of the Blood Angels IMO), Canis Wolfborn (hands down the best known Space Pup other than Russ) and CREEEEEED.

I forgot the names of the DA and BT Special Characters, but you get the point. Everyone I named (maybe not O'Shovah in the scheme of everyone else, but in the Tau Empire, him leaving is a big event) has crazy ass fluff to show how much they rock.

Nothing to that degree though. Abaddon led a strike team to retrieve Horus' body. He didn't then decide to go into the Imperial Palace and graffiti the Throne

I am actually surprised that Leman Russ and Guilliman have not been mentioned yet. Personally I would go with Dorn and Vulkan. It is said that Dorn was a tactical genius, had one of the best minds for defense and sieges. Horus even said that if the IF were defending a fortress, and his Luna Wolves attacked it, it would become a stale-mate.
As far as I know, little is known about Vulkan, so I can not speak of him much. But...the Imperial Fists and Salamanders are my favorite chapter/legions, so my opinion is more that likely biased.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:He(Draigo) is the face of the Grey Knights, he has to be the American Badass.

Just like Ghazzy, O'Shaserra(and O'Shovah to a lesser extent), Calgar (and his short lived Home Improvement Tv show), Vect, Eldrad, Abbadon, Lucius, Kharn, Thyphus, Ahriman, The Swarmlord, Mephiston( Dante may be the chapter Master, but Mephiston is the face of the Blood Angels IMO), Canis Wolfborn (hands down the best known Space Pup other than Russ) and CREEEEEED.

I forgot the names of the DA and BT Special Characters, but you get the point. Everyone I named (maybe not O'Shovah in the scheme of everyone else, but in the Tau Empire, him leaving is a big event) has crazy ass fluff to show how much they rock.

I disagree with Mephy being the face of BA. He is one of the strongest units in the codex, but hardly ever mentioned in fluff. Dante is definitely mentioned more when he steps up to a battle field even Calgar steps aside to give him command. IMO his fluff is much better than Mephiston.

DarknessEternal wrote:
It doesn't mention he was alone or with a hundred guys. In fact, it's only 13 words.

Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through the Motarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Greonitan's name on the Daemons vile heart."

It at the very least highly suggests that Draigo single-handedly took down Mortarion after the previous Grandmaster is killed.

The Lion was said to be the best tactician of all the Primarchs. It has also been said that he was an awesome swordsman as well. I dont think he was truly the most "powerful" of the Primarchs but I do believe he was definitely the tactical genious of the Primarchs.

I'd say Guilliman or Alpharius were better tacticians.

Durza wrote:I'd say Guilliman or Alpharius were better tacticians.

Not in a warzone, being sneaky sneaky definitely, but the lion was a better tactician. Too bad he wasn't much of a people person.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Durza wrote: I wouldn't even mind the fluff if it was something like 'it took twenty of the Grey Knights' finest to take down Mortarion, and of those, Draigo was the only one left standing. In vengeance, he carved the name of the old master into the daemon primarch's heart before banishing him.' But alone?

There's exactly one third of a sentence devoted to this whole encounter.

It doesn't mention he was alone or with a hundred guys. In fact, it's only 13 words.

You, and the rest of the internet, added the other "details".

IIRC it says, quite clearly, "alone and unaided".

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

FlammingGaunt wrote: I think his main selling point is the god damn retinue of bloodthristers, I don't care how OP Draigo is against 12 Blood thirsters not everyone is gonna get a piece.

This whole thread I had read Bloodthirster as Bloodletter , thinking "So what?" It has just dawned on me that he was toting Greater Daemons of Khorne as a Retinue.


We need to change the Thread's Title. Aggron+12 Bloodthirsters. Most powerful Deathstar unit?

back on topic: I'd be willing to bet that the Lion was not the most powerful. They say "The Emperor Protects" for a reason.

I tested out Draigo vs Angron,and even passing HH,and Santified flame,and allowing him to S.Bolter,and charging,Draigo was slaughtered by Angron,9/10.He won 1 battle 1v1,2 with 2 Bloodthirsters.Once it hit 3,he had no chance,so I put a Dreadknight in there.Once there were 12,it took about 50 paladins,20 purifiers,30ish Purgators laying down support Psilincer and Psycannon fire, and Draigo,and 3 Dreadknights,and a pair of Libbies,and a pair of SR,to finally bring the 13 monsters down.Even the 5/10 times the GK won,they were pulverised.

Deadshot wrote:

I tested out Draigo vs Angron,and even passing HH,and Santified flame,and allowing him to S.Bolter,and charging,Draigo was slaughtered by Angron,9/10.He won 1 battle 1v1,2 with 2 Bloodthirsters.Once it hit 3,he had no chance,so I put a Dreadknight in there.Once there were 12,it took about 50 paladins,20 purifiers,30ish Purgators laying down support Psilincer and Psycannon fire, and Draigo,and 3 Dreadknights,and a pair of Libbies,and a pair of SR,to finally bring the 13 monsters down.Even the 5/10 times the GK won,they were pulverised.

That makes me smile.

Most powerful? Horus. If Sanguinius had not battled him and created a chink in his armor, the Emperor would have fallen.

Brother Taurinus wrote:Most powerful? Horus. If Sanguinius had not battled him and created a chink in his armor, the Emperor would have fallen.

Only guesswork.

Its the whole reason why the 40k fluff works, because its deliberately ambiguous and contradictory so you can always find a reason to pick your army of choice.

I read that the emperor could easily have crushed Horus, but he didn't fight because he wasn't willing to bring his strength to bear against Horus. Only after he was wounded did he finally accept he had to kill his son, and at that point he blasted him out of existence.

As the point seems to be, YMMV. But considering the big E created pretty much everything including all the primarchs, I'd say he could knack Horus easy if he put his mind to it. And he did, why is why Horus doesn't exist anymore.

mattyrm wrote: But considering the big E created pretty much everything including all the primarchs, I'd say he could knack Horus easy if he put his mind to it. And he did, why is why Horus doesn't exist anymore.

The Primarchs were created with a measure of the Emperor's abilty,same way the Astartes were created,with the measure of the primarch.Horus+Chaos,would have been equal or just weaker than the big E.Like you have said,if he had put his mind to it,Horus wouldn't have liveed long enough to realise the big sword sticking out of him.

mattyrm wrote: I read that the emperor could easily have crushed Horus

Every source I can recall concerning their fight states that besting Horus would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power.

And of course Horus when he fought the Emperor was stronger than the other Primarchs, he was amped by all four Chaos Gods at the time.

Then it would be a simple enough task to go full power.He went at half speed because he wanted to Horus to do a Darth-Vader-Throws-Darth-Sidious-AKA-The Star Wars Emperor-down-the-Death-Star thing.When he realised he couldn't do this,he went,"Alright,to hell with this!",and killed him.

If the Emperor had have wanted him dead from the start,then Sanguinius wouldn't have died,because the Emperor would have just obliterated him there and then

Deadshot wrote:Then it would be a simple enough task to go full power.He went at half speed because he wanted to Horus to do a Darth-Vader-Throws-Darth-Sidious-AKA-The Star Wars Emperor-down-the-Death-Star thing.When he realised he couldn't do this,he went,"Alright,to hell with this!",and killed him.

I don't think it was as simple as that. Not even close. The Emperor didn't want to kill Horus, but I doubt if he was that powerful he would have let Horus rip his arm off and break his back. I'd have thought that he'd be able to just throw off all his attacks. Only until he saw that Horus was beyond redeeming did he use the full extent of his powers and that was in a single attack that could well have spent all his remaining strength. There's simply too little information too discuss anything other than the bare facts.

If the Emperor had have wanted him dead from the start,then Sanguinius wouldn't have died,because the Emperor would have just obliterated him there and then

He didn't want him dead, he thought Horus could be saved.
They were separated when deepstriking into the Vengeful Spirit, the Emperor arrived after Sanguinus was killed. Remember, the Emperor was busy maintaining the shield on the Webway portal. Malcador had to take over from him when he left to confront the Warmaster.

Exactly.He didn't want him dead.If he did,then Horus wouldn't have barely touched him.Watch Star Wars Episode 6,the fight between Luke and Vader.Luke had ample oportunities to end Vader,but didn't because he wqanted to believe that his dad could redeem himself.The Emperor takes the place of Luke,and Vader is Horus.The difference is that Horus doesn't redeem himself.

iproxtaco wrote:
I don't think it was as simple as that. Not even close. The Emperor didn't want to kill Horus, but I doubt if he was that powerful he would have let Horus rip his arm off and break his back. I'd have thought that he'd be able to just throw off all his attacks. Only until he saw that Horus was beyond redeeming did he use the full extent of his powers and that was in a single attack that could well have spent all his remaining strength. There's simply too little information too discuss anything other than the bare facts.

Well when put like that I don't think that Horus was truely a match for the big E psychicly the mere fact that the Emperor was fighting Horus physically at all suggests he wasn't using his full power. He could have just stood back and nuked him from a distance. Although I consider the Emperor to be pretty hard I imagine him to be only just on a physical par with a primarch, AFAIK the Emperor doesn't have all the extra organs and augmentations of a primarch he is just simply an extroadinarily powerful psyker and merely a supremely superb specimen of humanity physically.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Well when put like that I don't think that Horus was truely a match for the big E psychicly the mere fact that the Emperor was fighting Horus physically at all suggests he wasn't using his full power. He could have just stood back and nuked him from a distance. Although I consider the Emperor to be pretty hard I imagine him to be only just on a physical par with a primarch, AFAIK the Emperor doesn't have all the extra organs and augmentations of a primarch he is just simply an extroadinarily powerful psyker and merely a supremely superb specimen of humanity physically.

The Emperor and Horus were fighting on both the Material and Immaterial realms, aka, physically and psychically.

Deadshot wrote:Exactly.He didn't want him dead.If he did,then Horus wouldn't have barely touched him.Watch Star Wars Episode 6,the fight between Luke and Vader.Luke had ample oportunities to end Vader,but didn't because he wqanted to believe that his dad could redeem himself.The Emperor takes the place of Luke,and Vader is Horus.The difference is that Horus doesn't redeem himself.

Did you read my first point at all? If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him? Surely he should have been able to shrug off these attacks. That's a massive hole in your reasoning.
Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

Horus allegedly felt remorse before the Emperor ended him, a small part in him forcing him to hesitate from killing the Emperor.

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

If the gap between them were that huge, the Emperor could have just nonlethally incapacitated Horus, or deflected all his attacks.

As it turns out, he could not.

Deadshot wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

Yeah, you're not really countering my point. If the Emperor is as powerful as you think, why did he let Horus rip his arm off, take out one of his eyes and then break his back over his knee? Answer : He isn't as powerful as you think. The Emperor was not just able to go pew pew and kill Horus then and there.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

Never said it redeemed him. After the Emperor's final attack Horus came to his senses and felt remorse, but the Emperor knew he would turn again.

iproxtaco wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

Yeah, you're not really countering my point. If the Emperor is as powerful as you think, why did he let Horus rip his arm off, take out one of his eyes and then break his back over his knee? Answer : He isn't as powerful as you think. The Emperor was not just able to go pew pew and kill Horus then and there.

A father trying to kill his own son is insane dude. No sane father would want to use their full strength on their son, face it he didn't want to actually kill him.
Face it Horus was the Emperor's closet son. He loved the little brat. but he couldn't bring himself to kill him. How you would you feel if you had to kill your own son? Its a question that parents would never answer. They wouldn't they would try and protect them.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

Never said it redeemed him. After the Emperor's final attack Horus came to his senses and felt remorse, but the Emperor knew he would turn again.

Asherian Command wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

Yeah, you're not really countering my point. If the Emperor is as powerful as you think, why did he let Horus rip his arm off, take out one of his eyes and then break his back over his knee? Answer : He isn't as powerful as you think. The Emperor was not just able to go pew pew and kill Horus then and there.

A father trying to kill his own son is insane dude. No sane father would want to use their full strength on their son, face it he didn't want to actually kill him.
Face it Horus was the Emperor's closet son. He loved the little brat. but he couldn't bring himself to kill him. How you would you feel if you had to kill your own son? Its a question that parents would never answer. They wouldn't they would try and protect them.

Nice of you to come along and repeat what Deadshot has said and not actually counter my point. I'm well aware that the Emperor didn't want to kill Horus, but to say that the Emperor could have obliterated him in an instant but held back his true power is wrong, else the Emperor would have defended against the attacks of his son and not allowed himself to be mortally wounded. I also don't think their relationship was anywhere near the generic 'father and son' analogy. The Emperor was the Emperor, a powerful psyker, almost a God, towering above mortal humans in size and strength. Horus was likewise far removed from humanity.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

Never said it redeemed him. After the Emperor's final attack Horus came to his senses and felt remorse, but the Emperor knew he would turn again.

Horus redeemed himself in the end. where the helk have you been reading?
He had a moment of kill me now.
The Emperor obliged and killed him.

He didn't. The Emperor killed him because he would have betrayed him again. He couldn't let him live, so he had to destroy Horus.

As ever with 40k, Its all up to the observer's standpoint.

Im wondering where the detailed account of the battle between the emperor and horus is found. The details such as the Emperor's arm being ripped off and him having his back broken and eye put out are some what new to me. I do agree with void that logic clearly dictates that the emperor could not find a way to disable horus as an actual threat without hurting horus. The limits of the Emperor's power in relation to horus begin to materialize there.

Collected Visions or possibly Realm of Chaos is where I remember it.

UrbanCowboy wrote:Im wondering where the detailed account of the battle between the emperor and horus is found. The details such as the Emperor's arm being ripped off and him having his back broken and eye put out are some what new to me. I do agree with void that logic clearly dictates that the emperor could not find a way to disable horus as an actual threat without hurting horus. The limits of the Emperor's power in relation to horus begin to materialize there.

There are a few accounts, though nothing completely in-depth that I can recall.

I do know that his corpse on the Golden Throne is missing an arm though.

horus was in my opinion not as evil as every one thought he was, chances are he wanted the emperor to surrender, hence the amount of mortal blows but not finishing blows, and the fact that dearest Horus got a little bit upset when the Daemon inside Fulgrim handed him Ferrus' head

oh and an Adeptus Custode strolling into the room is always handy, Horus clearly killed him just to look hard

UrbanCowboy wrote:Im wondering where the detailed account of the battle between the emperor and horus is found. The details such as the Emperor's arm being ripped off and him having his back broken and eye put out are some what new to me. I do agree with void that logic clearly dictates that the emperor could not find a way to disable horus as an actual threat without hurting horus. The limits of the Emperor's power in relation to horus begin to materialize there.

I don't have the books on hand to check, but if memory serves, the rulebooks to both the original 1993 Horus Heresy and the Fantasy Flight revamp, and White Dwarf 161 (which contained the cut-out-and-keep game Warmaster) all contain retellings of the story in various iterations - it's a story worth reading.

Fairfeldia wrote:horus was in my opinion not as evil as every one thought he was, chances are he wanted the emperor to surrender, hence the amount of mortal blows but not finishing blows, and the fact that dearest Horus got a little bit upset when the Daemon inside Fulgrim handed him Ferrus' head

Actually reading any of the above would disabuse you of that notion.

Fairfeldia wrote:horus was in my opinion not as evil as every one thought he was, chances are he wanted the emperor to surrender, hence the amount of mortal blows but not finishing blows, and the fact that dearest Horus got a little bit upset when the Daemon inside Fulgrim handed him Ferrus' head

oh and an Adeptus Custode strolling into the room is always handy, Horus clearly killed him just to look hard

Eh, sorta not really.

Horus wasn't fully corrupted when the head of Ferrus Manus was brought to him.

Now, he did hesitate on dealing a fatal blow at the last moment according to the Chaos Marines codex, but he still very much wanted to cast his father down and conquer the Imperium. He just killed the brother he was once closest to before fighting his father, after all.

but he tried to bring Sangy to his side first because he didnt want to kill him

Fairfeldia wrote:horus was in my opinion not as evil as every one thought he was, chances are he wanted the emperor to surrender, hence the amount of mortal blows but not finishing blows, and the fact that dearest Horus got a little bit upset when the Daemon inside Fulgrim handed him Ferrus' head

oh and an Adeptus Custode strolling into the room is always handy, Horus clearly killed him just to look hard

LIES! It was Ollanius Pius, patron saint of the IG who got wasted. (This was retconned, but I prefer this version. Much more badass that way )

Fairfeldia wrote:but he tried to bring Sangy to his side first because he didnt want to kill him

and succeeded (dun dun dunnnnnnnn)

in the old bill king story( i think that was the author)
from the emperor POV, it clearly states that He went there with the idea to bring horus to his senses thats why He didnt fight with all his might... the moment that changes horus is gone

Fairfeldia wrote:but he tried to bring Sangy to his side first because he didnt want to kill him

Doesn't mean he wasn't evil. He knew that Sanguinus was strong so he wanted his brother on his side.

Sanguinius was his closest brother. That's why he wanted him on his side, much like Fulgrim wanted Manus to join him, so that they wouldn't have to kill their closest brothers.

Deadshot wrote:Sanguinius was his closest brother. That's why he wanted him on his side, much like Fulgrim wanted Manus to join him, so that they wouldn't have to kill their closest brothers.

That and he would be another powerful ally to have. Moreover, I think that the agonising death Horus willingly gave Sanguinius proves that Horus and been utterly corrupted and was by that point evil.