So, what do you think should be include in it? Here's what I would like to see:

-Legion option: Make your army based on a particuliar legion (like if it was originating from it), for some points, gain a specific rule or rules. Example:

World Eater Origin (30 pts per squad): Your units, except the vehicules, walkers, dreadnought, berzerkers, summoned deamons, gain fearless and +1 atk. Your army cannot include psykers and characters from another legion (example: noise marine).

-Some revised stats for the terminators (I think they need at least fearless).

-New Melee weapons.

-Mutation Option: Buy a mutation to a character in a unit. Example:

Bloody Talons (10 pts): anyone in the unit can trade his melee weapon for bloody talons, which enable to reroll missed rolls to wound

So this is just some random ideas like that. What would you like to see?

A SC for each Legion that changes how your army operates.

CHAOS(!) should be in the new CSM codex!

Not Marines Gone Bad.

Codexes are going that way, with HQ choices making a huge impact, e.g. freeing elites as troops options as Draigo and Crowe do for the GK. So legion-specific HQs giving specific god benefits?

coolyo294 wrote:A SC for each Legion that changes how your army operates.

This idea seems more likely than most, and I like it. If there were options for equipping said SC (like how Belial can have TH/SS or pw/sb, or Calgar can have terminator armor or not) that would be gravy.

I like the idea of marked troops being unlocked by your lord, as I think it was in the first CSM 3rd ed dex. As in you can take one of each cult troop type unless your lord has the corresponding mark, in which case you can take as many as you can fit in your army. In other words, an army with a lord of undivided could take 0-1 berserker squads as troops choices, or he could buy them as elites. A lord of Khorne could take them as troops altogether. Having two lords of different flavors would let you take, for example, 3 squads of berserkers and 3 squads of plague Marines as troops. I like this idea since it encourages a fluffy, focused army. If they left lesser daemons as is but let them take marks I'd be fine with them.

Cut down the cost of HQ's or give them Eternal Warrior. It's ridiculous to pay that much for Typhus just have him insta-gibbed by a rouge strength 8 rocket. He's the Herald of Nurgle for cryin' out loud!!

Brother SRM has hit the mark in how I’d like the troop mechanic to work. The third edition CSM books were a joy to use.

Personally I’d like to see proper lesser daemons reintroduced into chaos. Not generic daemons or marked generic daemons but actual proper lesser daemons. I want my Bloodletters to have power weapon attacks and I want my Horrors to shoot stuff.

I agree on the IC for each legion. I want a Word Bearer's Chaplain! And I want the IC's to actually be there for a purpose, not just for being a lord with an extra ability. Like the alpha legion IC Giving the infiltrate SR to troop choices, or Giving Night Lords IC some wicked wargear that makes turns into night fighting with all infantry gaining night vision.

Things of that nature would be great. Personally I liked when your special IC could only be played with their army. (typhus for Death Gaurd, lucius for Emperor's children, etc.) This rule if implemented would need each army to be different in terms of rules though, like what units they could take and if they were elites or infantry ( like how it used to be), special equipment/units available to only one legion.

that looks pretty awesome to be honest. I hope to see this. But what Kind of characteras should there be like option? Do we keep those we have with the same stats, or change them a little bit? Or do we add some new ones? And what about generic characters???

Khornate25 wrote:that looks pretty awesome to be honest. I hope to see this. But what Kind of characteras should there be like option? Do we keep those we have with the same stats, or change them a little bit? Or do we add some new ones? And what about generic characters???

I would personally give Chaos Lords and the like a few options for daemonic mutations and gifts, but I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as the old 3.5 dex. That codex, while fun, showed the dangers of going overboard with that kinda thing when somebody could have 2 winged Nurgle lords with every gift under the sun assaulting your army on turn 1. As for special characters, I'd really like it if they just used some of the existing models they have, like the Iron Warriors Warsmith. Call him Scallifrax or whatever badguy sounding name you can dream up, and let him take Vindicators as Fast Attack in addition to Heavy Support choices or something. Maybe he can give a few units in your army Tank Hunters or something to represent siege specialists. Anyway, those are just my suggestions for Iron Warriors, basically just to get my idea across.

IMO, Honsou should be the Iron Warriors SC.

Personally, I'd like to see Chaos all under one book, including Daemons as well as Lost and the Damned. Not likely to happen, but it's what I would like. The army changing HQs is a great idea. I love it in my Codex (Marines) and think it would go great in others as well.

Bring the spirit of the 3ed codex back, add LnD make Choas, all of chaos. Otherwise run a Legion book and a Chaos book. Demons is just [Mod Edit - Please don't use that word that way here on Dakka Dakka - thanks!].

AustonT wrote:Demons is just [Mod Edit - Please don't use that word that way here on Dakka Dakka - thanks!]]

Ugh, please don't use that word.

I would like some Lost and the Damned element to the army, even if it was just squads of 10-30 cultists that can buy special/heavy IG weapons for X amount of points. Figure that and units of mutants with big mutants filling a sergeant role and you've got most of what you need for Lost and the Damned in just two unit entries.

The codex Chaos Demons is [Mod Edit - Don't play games with it either - thanks!]

Cult terminators!

20 point Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters already attached. Luscius the Eternal to have an ability if he dies in combat, the opponent has to test to succumb at the start of his turn for the rest of the game. 1st turn after Luscius dies, he fails on a 6. Next turn it's a 5. So on and so forth. Only works in CC
God-specific Dreadnaughts
God Specific Daemons taken from Daemon codex.
Daemon Princes with more options.

That's good enough for me. I'd swoon from all that for GW, and take back my evil words against them (except I have given no evil words to their customer service, which is amazing beyond compare)

I would like to see a more balanced codex that can compete with the codex creep we are seeing. Some armies have become nigh impossible to beat with CSM.

The thing that is most lacking is the ability to take special weapons on cult troops choices excluding plague marines, that and long range anti tank, some form of PoTMS combined with a TL multi melta like every single marine army has.

I have an easier time killing tanks with orks...

Well, the former 3.5 ed codex was one of the best codices ever. I'd like to see a move into this direction combined with the 6th ed rules.

Yeah, the idea of having cultist and more option for the non generic CSM is awesome. I'd also like cult terminators also. Or maybe just terminator with fearless, a CC of 5 rather than 4, and more weapon options. Can't wait to see if it will happen.

AustonT wrote:The codex Chaos Demons is [Mod Edit - Don't play games with it either - thanks!]

How DARE I use the English language in a proper and contextual manner that is commonly understood. Allow me to rephrase AGAIN.

The codex Chaos Demons is stunted
The codex Chaos Demons is incomplete
The codex Chaos Demons is fragmentary
The codex Chaos Demons is deficient
The codex Chaos Demons is like making a Codex Space Marines Scouts

I think Terminators should be fearless by default for CSM as a little flavorful buff to distinguish them from loyalists. Marking them then would get closer to true cult Terminators.

In an ideal world, a 400 page hardback collecting the rules for everything, with force organisation charts for all nine legions, plus a 'Cult Uprising' list and a kitchen sink 'Black Crusade' list. I'd prefer legion-specific FoCs to the obligation to field particular special characters in order to unlock legion-specific options (I like being able to design and convert my own), but the latter is the way they've been going, and would still be better than the present system (or lack thereof).

I'd pay Games Workshop fifty quid for that.

coolyo294 wrote:A SC for each Legion that changes how your army operates.

This. Include cult terminator options. Then, shovel cult troops into the Elites section. Dreadnoughts lose the stupid Crazed! rule, and may take marks (Tz = 5+ invul, Kh = +1 A and FC, Nur = Defensive and Offensive Grenades, Slaaneshi = +1 I).

Something like...

Iron Warriors SC: HS options may be taken as Elites choices. D3 terrain pieces gain Bolster Defenses (+1 to cover save provided)

Night Warriors SC: FA options may be taken as Elites choices. D3 units gain the Scouts special rule.

Fabius Bile: Any unit of CSM may be given the Enhanced characteristic as outlined in current Codex CSM. Includes cult units.

Khornate SC: 12" preferred enemy and +1 A bubble, Berzerkers may be taken as Troops. Roll a D6 for each infantry unit in the army. On the roll of a 1 it gains the Rage USR.

Nurgle SC: 12" difficult terrain bubble for enemies (flies and nastiness), and any friendly unit within 12" counts as having defensive grenade. Plague Marines may be taken as Troops. Roll a D6 for each infantry unit in the army. On the roll of a 1 it becomes SnP.

Slaaneshi SC: 12" +1 I bubble , Noise Marines may be taken as Troops.

Tzeench SC: 12" 5+ invul bubble similar to KFF, Rubric Marines may be taken as Troops.

Chaos Legion Codex will probably have,

4 Cult marine troops choices and undivided marines for Black legion.

You will probably get bonuses if you focus on a certain god, or don't take any from a god of opposite alignment. Abbaddon probably wil have a special rule where you suffer no penelties for taking multiple Gods in tandam.

Legion Dex will also have cultists. cheapo cannon fodder(3-4 points each in units of 10-30) that have basic human profiles, 6+ armor, BS and WS2, and lasguns or Laspistol and CCW. May take an exaulted champion for a hidden power fist.

Daemonic Gifts return to wargear.



Codex Renagades will have,

Basic chaos marines. maybe choice between Bolter or Pistol and CCW(Legion wil have both) and can take marks

Dex wil probably have Traitor Guard. Basic guardsmen that can take Marks. Lemun Russ(basic type) and Basilisks.

more of a focus on the renagade factors of basically Imperial forces that have gone traitor. no daemonic gifts or such.

can't wait can't wait. Almost waiting for this as much as for Diablo 3. God I like evil things

Jimsolo wrote:Personally, I'd like to see Chaos all under one book, including Daemons as well as Lost and the Damned. Not likely to happen, but it's what I would like. The army changing HQs is a great idea. I love it in my Codex (Marines) and think it would go great in others as well.

Ditto. If the Chaos marines are really working with Daemons in the fluff, then they should actually be working with real Daemons in the rules. For example, a DP in one should be identical in the other.

would like to see the codex's sections as the following:

1-Introduction to chaos

2-Chaos History

3-Chaos Characters and units for CSM (with revised stats, options and rules, maybe some new variants)

4-Chaos Renegades (fallen IG, Cultists, Mutants, Etc)

5-Chaos Demons (real stats and options)

6-Armory (like last one, but with mutations and gift of chaos)

7-Psychics Powers (we definitively need more powers. I mean, chaos is the source of sorcery, so how do the GK have more than us?)

8-Painting and Modeling

9-Army List

GW Should Just buy JustDave's or hire him.

They should get And They Shall Know no Fear, or a renamed version. This is more of a fluff point, the reasoning being-why do Marines become more cowardly when they become evil?

Also, it would give some viability to the standard CSM.

I'd like to see some decent fast attack options.

Small, Far Away wrote:They should get And They Shall Know no Fear, or a renamed version. This is more of a fluff point, the reasoning being-why do Marines become more cowardly when they become evil?

Also, it would give some viability to the standard CSM.

They don't have faith in the God Emperor, so they lose out on that. Instead they get more tangible bonuses, like +1 Toughness through Nurgle, +1 Attack through Khorne, etc. It's a balancing point that makes them distinct from Codex: Space Marines and as a player of both armies I like that.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:GW Should Just buy JustDave's or hire him.

I at least hope they adopt a similar system. None of this Independent Character rubbish, proper Legion rules. Each HQ choice takes one Legion rule, it adds one universal rule and also changes the FoC in some way or unlocks a specific unit. For example, taking the Iron Warriors Legion rule makes this HQ choice a Warsmith. He gains such and such wargear and rule. Siege Dreadnought unlocked as a HS choice. Havocs are now Troops, only one of which can count towards minimum FoC requirements.

At the very least, allow us 0-1 choices from the Chaos Daemons book.

Cross-codex stuff is out of the game completely. If they let us mark daemons then that would make up for quite a bit.

Be nice to have some better Daemons, some good wargear for our HQ choices and some army wide bonuses for God specific lists.

new deamons also. I think the list is short for such a chaotic race

coolyo294 wrote:IMO, Honsou should be the Iron Warriors SC.

Is this a character from a novel? I have a very interesting fan codex someone wrote, with a special character and legion rules for every legion. Warsmith Honsou is the IW character. I think I found it on scribd, look for the chaos space marine codex by scott "zeruel13" addley. It's very well done and reads like a professional codex and not something thrown together by a powergamer for his favorite army

I would love to see Traitor Guard units (as they are in Imperial Armour: The Siege of Vracks), as well as new daemonic engines (such as Blight Drones and Blood Slaughterers), or even a new Land Raider type (in a experimental codex I saw one with autocannons instead of lascannons, which I find interesting).
I would also love to see marks avaliable dor vehicles, and some upgrade to possessed (at least, 2 wounds instead of 1). Also, new special characters from other legions (IW, Alpha Legion, and such) would be refreshing.

Brotherjulian wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:IMO, Honsou should be the Iron Warriors SC.

Is this a character from a novel? I have a very interesting fan codex someone wrote, with a special character and legion rules for every legion. Warsmith Honsou is the IW character. I think I found it on scribd, look for the chaos space marine codex by scott "zeruel13" addley. It's very well done and reads like a professional codex and not something thrown together by a powergamer for his favorite army

He is the nemisis of Uriel Ventris in the Ultramarine novels.


He is a Half-Breed Ironwarrior. an Ironwarrior created from Loyalist geneseed(specifically Imperial Fist)

*Coughcoughcough*

I think the vast majority of that codex is great.

I like to see a seperation into old Chaos Veterans and newer low quality Chaos Marines.

And I like to see cultists and lost and damned back and reincoperation of the deamons.

I dont think they should get ,,And They Shall Know no Fear" because they have no real higher goal left to fight and die for, in fact most are reduced to a pack of criminals and pirtates and want to stay alive,

maybe a Ld difference?


Renagades could have something like Ld7(8 with sergeant) to represent their lack of purpose. Original Legion members would have 8(9 with champion) because they are motivated and have purpose.

But how would you compare between a renegade or a true Legionare?. It makes no sense IMO but i do think they should AT LEAST make a special character for every Legion.


LETS BE ERUBUS!

KnightOfTheRaven wrote:But how would you compare between a renegade or a true Legionare?. It makes no sense IMO but i do think they should AT LEAST make a special character for every Legion.


LETS BE ERUBUS!

Erebus for Word Bearers IC? Probably the best choice Fluff wise, and with some decent rules could be a superb choice.

I want Terminator (and maybe even raptor!) options for berserkers, plague marines, thousand sons and the like. I want Workable Dreads. I want a cool Land Raider variant. I want some more daemon engines.

I want the point cost of Noise Marines, Possessed, Havoks and chaos bikers to be normalized with modern codices. And perhaps most of all, I want fun HQs that give army bonuses instead of just CC monsters, so it's just default Daemon Princes for all.

((Ahem. 'd also like Daemon Princes to be more customizable, like Tyranid monstrous creatures, so you could either make a cheap, bare-bones verions or a budget-busting Draigo-killer.))

In view of EC:

- Bikers w/ sonic blasters (2 pts upgrade per model),

- Havocs w/ blastmasters (4 per squad, blastmasters 10-20 pts).

wuestenfux wrote:In view of EC:

- Bikers w/ sonic blasters (2 pts upgrade per model),

- Havocs w/ blastmasters (4 per squad, blastmasters 10-20 pts).

That doesn't seem unreasonable, i'd say the points for the blast masters would be probably 20 though.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:GW Should Just buy JustDave's or hire him.

Have you read his codex? It's just a continuation of Thorpe's current dex with whatever he thinks CSM is.
You want a real dex? Take the 4e CSM codex, update it with 5e costs and rules.
BAM. Original and authentic fluff and good rules.

KnightOfTheRaven wrote:But how would you compare between a renegade or a true Legionare?. It makes no sense IMO but i do think they should AT LEAST make a special character for every Legion.


LETS BE ERUBUS!

Or just a Dark Apostle? I don't want to have to take Erebus every time a play my Word Bearers, it doesn't match their fluff and it just seems too much like a cop-out. JustDaves codex demonstrates how easy it is to make special rules without resulting to ICs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

terranarc wrote:

Commisar Von Humps wrote:GW Should Just buy JustDave's or hire him.

Have you read his codex? It's just a continuation of Thorpe's current dex with whatever he thinks CSM is.
You want a real dex? Take the 4e CSM codex, update it with 5e costs and rules.
BAM. Original and authentic fluff and good rules.

Have you? Did you miss the Warband Rules? The extra units? The 15 or so pages of feedback he's had and then incorporated into it? The Fandex is more than the current 4th codex will ever be. Every codex is what the author thinks the army is like. The Grey Knights have suffered for it, as have the Space Wolves, and the Dark Eldar has alienated some people. Put simply, JustDave's view is better than Thorpes.
I also don't get how simply updating the rules for a new edition results in originality.

iproxtaco wrote:
I also don't get how simply updating the rules for a new edition results in originality.

You don't know what originality means do you.

terranarc wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I also don't get how simply updating the rules for a new edition results in originality.

You don't know what originality means do you.

Of some rules yes, but the rest is just a re-print, so not original at all.

iproxtaco wrote:

terranarc wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I also don't get how simply updating the rules for a new edition results in originality.

You don't know what originality means do you.

Of some rules yes, but the rest is just a re-print, so not original at all.

See, I'm fine with that. Because the last thing I want is something like Mat Ward's rewriting of key fluff points and introducing more slowed stuff. The CSM world is already a rich world and doesn't need to be raped like GK. Now you may ask, well what do fluff have to do with rules? Answer: Everything. The rules don't have to be hyper-realistic but without something to justify it, you'll end up with a bad codex.
For Dave's codex, I had actually written half a page of issues but then I realized that the codex was so liberal that I really didn't feel like writing a paper critiquing his fanwork. Certian rules are blatantly against fluff, others are his own interpretation. Now, he's certainly no Matt Ward but that's not saying much. On the other hand if his codex was published (let us humor you for a moment), it'd be no worse than what Ward could do.

terranarc wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

terranarc wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I also don't get how simply updating the rules for a new edition results in originality.

You don't know what originality means do you.

Of some rules yes, but the rest is just a re-print, so not original at all.

See, I'm fine with that. Because the last thing I want is something like Mat Ward's rewriting of key fluff points and introducing more slowed stuff. The CSM world is already a rich world and doesn't need to be raped like GK. Now you may ask, well what do fluff have to do with rules? Answer: Everything. The rules don't have to be hyper-realistic but without something to justify it, you'll end up with a bad codex.

I completely agree, but if there's going to be a brand new Legion codex, I'd want some brand new fluff. Mat Ward can write fine in some cases, its just that a lot of it deserves the red pen. The Space Marine codex is fine, its the context that's wrong, the concentration on the Ultramarines. I doubt that he'd be allowed to though. Keep him doing the loyalist codices, rain on their parade.

For Dave's codex, I had actually written half a page of issues but then I realized that the codex was so liberal that I really didn't feel like writing a paper critiquing his fanwork. Certian rules are blatantly against fluff, others are his own interpretation. Now, he's certainly no Matt Ward but that's not saying much. On the other hand if his codex was published (let us humor you for a moment), it'd be no worse than what Ward could do.

I really don't see anything to be perfectly honest, not now after all the tweaking. It's far more accurate to the fluff than Thorpe's abomination.

-More connecting the CSM to the forces of Chaos themselves. Emphasize that they're just one of a large front of Chaos forces (Daemons, Lost and the Damned, Dark Mechanicus, etc.). Less emphasis on renegade chaptors/pirates.

-Options for Lost and the Damned auxilliaries in there: Traitor Guard, Cultists, Mutants, Beastmen

-More specialization/rules for each of the 9 Legions (besides Black Legion which could stay a standard "template" CSM force). Dark Apostles for Word Bearers, Warsmiths for Iron Warriors, Infiltrator Marines for Alpha Legion, some kind of special Raptor for Night Lords. Even if GW doesn't want to give these guys official models, at least make rules/stats for them so players can themselves.

-TALK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE EYE OF TERROR. I'm tired of there being absolutely no info about this. Go into some of the wars fought between the Chaos powers in the Eye. Talk about some of the major worlds of the Eye of Terror. I want to know what Magnus/Peturabo/Mortarion/Lorgar/Omegon are up to. Even simply saying "they're in the Warp more connection to Daemon affairs than that of mortals" or "Omegons status is unknown" would be enough for me.

-Bring Malice back as at least a minor player in Chaos affairs. I understand GW can't use Malal anymore, but Malice has popped up in the past and Malice/the Sons of Malice should be mentioned in the fluff part of the codex somewhere.

Really I think GW should release some kind of special Codex for a lot of this instead of a new edition CSM. Something like "Codex: Forces of Chaos" would work. Goes in-depth into Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned, and the Traitor Titans (the latter at least fluff-wise). Of course we know this won't happen anytime soon, so it's just wishful thinking.

Everything you said harriticus I would agree with except bringing back Malice, as I see him as Unnecessary. Problem becomes trying to cram it all into one codex. Chaos forces are simply to vast to be compacted into a single book, so multiple codex is probably the route to go. As long as they DO cover everything.

Sunoccard wrote:Everything you said harriticus I would agree with except bringing back Malice, as I see him as Unnecessary. Problem becomes trying to cram it all into one codex. Chaos forces are simply to vast to be compacted into a single book, so multiple codex is probably the route to go. As long as they DO cover everything.

I agree that it's too much to put into 1 codex, which is why GW should release another "Realm of Chaos" book, but completely revamped for the current fluff. Even include some army lists for CSM/Daemons/LATD/Dark Mechanicus in there.

thats why there should be 2 codices.

Codex: Chaos Legions and Codex: Traitors and Renagades


Chaos Legions would be the original Traitor Legions and would have more daemonic support like Defilers, Posessed Vehicles, Daemonic Gifts, and Obliterators. there would be the 4 cult troops and a generic Chaos Space Marine unit. they could also have Cultists, which would basically be a cheap cannon fodder unit.

Codex Traitors and Renagades would have Renagade Space Marines, which would basically be Chaos Space Marines but with lower leadership and no good special rules, but they would be cheaper. these guys would basically be Space Marines that have recently turned traitor/gone out for themselves and haven't become true Hardcore traitors. they are unsure of their course(lower Ld) and are without purpose not having the blessing of any particular Chaos God yet. the book would also have Traitor Guard units with less equipment options, like only regular LRBTs and Demolishers not any other varient, but cheaper.

I too would like to humbly suggest my Chaos Space Marine (fan) Codex, it's got most of what's been asked for:

Legion Rules

Non-Astartes/Chaos Space Marine Units (i.e. Heretics/Cultists)

Land Raider Variants

Dreadnought Marks/Variants

Defiler Marks/Variants

Predator Variants/Customisation

Dark Mechanicus Representation

A Chaos Space Marine Flyer

Daemon (Lesser & Greater) Marks/Variants/God-specific

Sacred Numbers

FoC Multipliers

Customisable Elite Terminators

5th Edition-updated units and points costs throughout

More Psychic Powers

Psychic Defence

Gifts of Chaos

Reflection of the influence of the Chaos Gods

Cypher!

Greater Customisation

And More!

Seriously, please check it out. It's got some really good feedback and people are already using it in their games, with their friends approval too! It's all fitted into a single Codex, no larger than the existing Codices and not over-loaded with options or complication. It doesn't force you to play Chaos in a certain way, but it gives you the option to make your army as characterful as you want.
I really believe it bridges the gap between the 3.5 Codex (too complicated and restrictive at the same time IMHO) and the 4th edition Codex (too simplified) and within a single Codex with a Unit selection equal to the Space Marines Codex, so it's not unreasonably large either.

You want a Alpha Legion army with lots of infiltration and GeQ's?
You want a Night Lords army with lots of Raptors and terror-tactics?
Iron Warriors with ordnance weapons, lots of heavy weapons and meltaguns? Emperors Children with Sonic Blasters on their Havocs? Thousand Sons with lots of sorcerers and actually able to take out armour? A Renegade army that hits hard and fast, as Space Marines are supposed to? Abaddon supported by an elite cadre of terminators? It can accommodate for all of these things and more.

I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, I'm trying to increase awareness and answer the OP at the same time; it answers the OP as these are all the things I would like to see included in the next Codex too.

Btw, Thanks for the kind words Silver, 'Humps and 'Taco.

terranarc wrote:

Commisar Von Humps wrote:GW Should Just buy JustDave's or hire him.

Have you read his codex? It's just a continuation of Thorpe's current dex with whatever he thinks CSM is.
You want a real dex? Take the 4e CSM codex, update it with 5e costs and rules.
BAM. Original and authentic fluff and good rules.

I'm not going to leap upon anyone that criticises my work, as with anything, obviously some people won't agree with it. However, I will respond to these comments by terran' as they strike me as somewhat odd...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but taking the 4E Codex and updating it for 5th edition is exactly " just a continuation of Thorpe's current dex".

terranarc wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

terranarc wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I also don't get how simply updating the rules for a new edition results in originality.

You don't know what originality means do you.

Of some rules yes, but the rest is just a re-print, so not original at all.

See, I'm fine with that. Because the last thing I want is something like Mat Ward's rewriting of key fluff points and introducing more slowed stuff. The CSM world is already a rich world and doesn't need to be raped like GK. Now you may ask, well what do fluff have to do with rules? Answer: Everything. The rules don't have to be hyper-realistic but without something to justify it, you'll end up with a bad codex.
For Dave's codex, I had actually written half a page of issues but then I realized that the codex was so liberal that I really didn't feel like writing a paper critiquing his fanwork. Certian rules are blatantly against fluff, others are his own interpretation. Now, he's certainly no Matt Ward but that's not saying much. On the other hand if his codex was published (let us humor you for a moment), it'd be no worse than what Ward could do.

The bolded part is what stood out for me about your comments - other than the contradiction above - as one of the main things I've sought to do throughout the Codex is to keep it accurate to fluff and this has been something that's received a lot of positive feedback. I honestly cannot think of any rule there that is "blatantly against fluff". If you could provide examples, that'd be dandy as I honestly cannot think of any myself.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, providing it's politely written and constructive, all feedback is welcome and I have stood by that.
You are also the first person to (openly at least) compare it to Mat Ward, at least in a negative manner AFAIK.

I'll also clarify that some of the 'liberal' nature you described may be an illusion of sorts; it's actually changed relatively little since it's original incarnation.

*This may be better taken to the Codex's thread itself.

Only bad thing about justdaves codex is a lack of plague zombies, fluff and artwork.

I would love if they brought back the 3rd edition options but moderate them better threw a Need Mark of: * system since you can only get 1 mark your subjected to a pool of certain abilities / options only. Everyone has a general idea of what should be assessable by each god by mutation by now. I think they need 1 specific exotic cult option for each god. Like an FA choice for Slaanesh that is some kind of FA CSM for Slaanesh I don't know I don't want to think right now. I think it would be good to bring back the old sacred number and god specific demon summons if you choice to vice yourself to a cult. I believe they also need some fruity aspects involved as well Henchmen(Like Inquisitorial Henchmen and civilians just corrupted.) like qualities would be good to make cult theme armies or just playing chaos in general more interesting.

I think the one flaw right now with CSM is the fact that its greatest asset in fluff is its worse weakness on the table? All the undivided stuff is cool in most respect and it always seems like they want that to be the big deal. Though, no one ever wants to run the big deal in my mind. So its a hard fix. Though I think if anything undivided strength should be cheaper units and mult ability to summon whateverthehell they feel like wheneverthehell they feel like it. I think undivided should have some of its own 'specific' units / models to itself. Maybe a new crazy greater daemon that only works for undivided and has no chaos god associations. They also need to revamp every special character... They need more special character's. They also need chaos to have some fluff wins or a major kill by a daemon prince *Cough*Draigo*Cough*

Alot needs to be done for chaos ALOT not just a little, I always felt that yes chaos was suppose to be the major evil in the universe but they just don't seem up to snuff(Literally & pun) lately. So I just hope they come back into line and they actually make the future grim and dark and everyone treats them the way they treat DoA right now which is. Horror & Fear... That's what Chaos should do and stand for that.

-Sincerely Viri

P.S. I mostly blame chaos problem right now on the fact that demon model's are flexible between 40k and Fantasy dexes. Why else would they remove demons from CSM into there own army. Though both dex need a lot of work...

Hey guys, how's it going. Why does everyone want legion rules and cult terminators? That's not the way to go for chaos. I mean, c'mon get real! I got an idea instead of that they should retcon the fluff to explain how all the legion terminators got killed in the Siege of Terra and now all chaos terminators are renegades warbands. That would be extra sweet. And Roboute Guilliman is their spiritual liege. Matt Ward should do it. Bye.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Hey guys, how's it going. Why does everyone want legion rules and cult terminators?

Because they are a major part of the fluff, are fun to play, and are actually interesting as opposed to random "warbands"

SilverMK2 wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Hey guys, how's it going. Why does everyone want legion rules and cult terminators?

Because they are a major part of the fluff, are fun to play, and are actually interesting as opposed to random "warbands"

Silver, don't respond to those posts. He's obviously trolling this thread. You'll save some sanity.

Grey Templar wrote:thats why there should be 2 codices.

Codex: Chaos Legions and Codex: Traitors and Renagades

That's pretty much the current rumor for how Chaos will be handled. (And how I hope that handle it).

kronk wrote:Silver, don't respond to those posts. He's obviously trolling this thread. You'll save some sanity.

Yeah, I guessed as much when I went back and read what he had written

Here's the basics of what I'd like to see:

A high degree of customizability, this is CHAOS after all. More options/weapons/upgrades/mutations/warped equipment/etc.

Some way to differentiate the Traitor Legionnaires of the Horus Heresy from the run of the mill Marine (e.g. vet skills or something)

Differentiation between Cult Legion units and the "icon" units. Only the troops selection currently does this. A World Eaters berzerker is a dedicated warrior of Khorne who has undergone the psycho-lobotomization procedure. A unit of CSM's with a stick is just a unit of marines that venerate Khorne. This is not done currently in any slot but Troops.

Very powerful offensive psykers and psychic defense, especially tzeentch. These guys are going all out with daemon-granted powers and protection, they should be awesome psykers.

more Daemon engines

Some Legion specific rules, somewhat like they did with the 3.5 codex, 4E SM Traits or 3E IG Doctrines. Yeah there were issues with those but they were execution issues not problems with the concept.

Make a clear differentiation between Legions and Renegades. Legion troops will have Reaper autocannons, Havoc Launchers, TL Bolters, and combi-weapons. Recently turned renegades should still have their Thunderhammers, Assault Cannons and Razorbacks.

Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes should be flat out the scariest SM HQ's. A Chaos Lord is a Captain/Chapter Master equiavalent, but with daemonic gifts and enhancements and unreal wargear. A Daemon Prince is an ascended Chaos Lord and should be on the level of a Hive Tyrant/Mephiston. They should have a price to match their impressive abilities. Basically copy the paradigm from Warhammer Fantasy Warrior of Chaos where there's very little that will stand 1v1 with a Lord of Chaos. Additionally, bring back the 'lieutenant' option for a cheaper, less capable HQ, much like the SW Wolf Guard Battle Leader (or Chaos Lieutenant 2.0)

I agree, Chaos Lords in Fantesy are so utterly awsome and killy its not funny. Chaos Lords in 40k blow. Daemon Princes pretty much suck in both games(or at least the prelevance of Cannons make fantesy princes sitting ducks)

Chaos Lords also happen to have some of the coolest models GW has ever produced. The mounted Chaos lords especially...give CSM's something like that...oh man

If they gave me the option to really tweak an army to exactly how I want to play it, I'd die of happiness.
I want a lot more tanks for my Iron Warriors... I don't want to have to look at 4 Rhinos and Vindicators instead of the possibility of other, cooler tanks (If I could take a Basilisk or Leman Russ I'd be over the moon)
If they gave me better squad options i'd also be very happy.
Yeah, we have our Plague/Noise/Rubric Marines and Berzerkers and Normal Chaos Marines... But what if I want to take a blob of cultists or slaves to tarpit an enemy? Or if I want to take some sort of Chaos scouts?
We need some more diversity... The codex says that Chaos is an incredibly flexible army, so they should make it that.

Also... Overall, I just want a nicer/bigger codex. The equivalent of the current nilla marines codex.
Massive amount of background stories, information on each of the original legions of chaos, different FoC for different "legion" armies and so on.
Instead of the current piddly codex.


Most of this has probably been said. But I ceebs reading through to make sure.

~Danzag

Vaktathi wrote:Differentiation between Cult Legion units and the "icon" units. Only the troops selection currently does this. A World Eaters berzerker is a dedicated warrior of Khorne who has undergone the psycho-lobotomization procedure. A unit of CSM's with a stick is just a unit of marines that venerate Khorne. This is not done currently in any slot but Troops.

But then they gotta give all those units models. They already have enough work getting all the existing cult troops into plastic. Most likely they'll just come up with some new (stupid) fluff explaining why there aren't any cult terminators/havocs/bikers/etc. That's a lot less work too. Easy peasy.

Very powerful offensive psykers and psychic defense, especially tzeentch. These guys are going all out with daemon-granted powers and protection, they should be awesome psykers.

They cannot do this. If you gave chaos sorcerers stronger psychic powers than librarians the space marine players will get upset. Becuz Ultramarines is the bestest.

Make a clear differentiation between Legions and Renegades. Legion troops will have Reaper autocannons, Havoc Launchers, TL Bolters, and combi-weapons. Recently turned renegades should still have their Thunderhammers, Assault Cannons and Razorbacks.

But chaos = reaper autocannons. This makes perfect sense if you think about it. Becuz tehy iz warbanz.

Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes should be flat out the scariest SM HQ's. A Chaos Lord is a Captain/Chapter Master equiavalent, but with daemonic gifts and enhancements and unreal wargear. A Daemon Prince is an ascended Chaos Lord and should be on the level of a Hive Tyrant/Mephiston. They should have a price to match their impressive abilities.

Again, this is a nonstarter as it will enrage loyalist fanboys. No go.

Dear GW,

How come you made chaos lords stronger than my chapter master! No fair! +2 str power weapons are soooo cheesy! Fix it now!

Ok, so now they're only +1 str and they hit themselves in the face half the time? That's better. Now give me relic blades. Yay!

k thx bye

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Differentiation between Cult Legion units and the "icon" units. Only the troops selection currently does this. A World Eaters berzerker is a dedicated warrior of Khorne who has undergone the psycho-lobotomization procedure. A unit of CSM's with a stick is just a unit of marines that venerate Khorne. This is not done currently in any slot but Troops.

But then they gotta give all those units models.

They've had these units in the past and didn't have models, they still don't have dedicated models for many, and have always relied on conversion, much like IG vets, Chosen, etc. They also have FW models for many of these units.

They already have enough work getting all the existing cult troops into plastic. Most likely they'll just come up with some new (stupid) fluff explaining why there aren't any cult terminators/havocs/bikers/etc. That's a lot less work too. Easy peasy.

This didn't seem to be an issue in 2nd Edition or for the 5 years of 3.5E.

They cannot do this. If you gave chaos sorcerers stronger psychic powers than librarians the space marine players will get upset. Becuz Ultramarines is the bestest.

A silly reason for stupid game design. "Non-Loyalism SM armies can't have nice things" isn't something that always holds true, nor is it good game design, and nor do the loyalist fanbois always get butthurt at everything. Something like this would also not be hard to differentiate. Chaos=Offensive powers, direct damage type stuff while you make the Marines=Defensive/Support powers like they currently already are mostly.

Again, this is a nonstarter as it will enrage loyalist fanboys. No go.

Not really, as this was the case at several points for many years in the past, and again is a silly reason for stupid game design.

Dear GW,

How come you made chaos lords stronger than my chapter master! No fair! +2 str power weapons are soooo cheesy! Fix it now!

Ok, so now they're only +1 str and they hit themselves in the face half the time? That's better. Now give me relic blades. Yay!

k thx bye

Keep in mind that the guys who wrote the CSM had a different design style and view than the ones who wrote the SM book, and neither of the guys who wrote the current C:CSM were employed at the GW design studio by the time C:SM came out.

Vaktathi wrote:

They cannot do this. If you gave chaos sorcerers stronger psychic powers than librarians the space marine players will get upset. Becuz Ultramarines is the bestest.

A silly reason for stupid game design. "Non-Loyalism SM armies can't have nice things" isn't something that always holds true, nor is it good game design, and nor do the loyalist fanbois always get butthurt at everything. Something like this would also not be hard to differentiate. Chaos=Offensive powers, direct damage type stuff while you make the Marines=Defensive/Support powers like they currently already are mostly.

Again, this is a nonstarter as it will enrage loyalist fanboys. No go.

Not really, as this was the case at several points for many years in the past, and again is a silly reason for stupid game design.

The primary reason for chaos (or xenos for that matter) to exist is to give something for the space marines to whomp upon. It just doesn't do to have the villians make the heroes look bad. We should expect chaos to be good, but not as good as space marines. This pleases the greatest number of customers and helps move the primary product.

I think that firstly the idea of hq's they are just not enough i mean think of how many unique characters in the SM army is there with eternal warrior and yet abaddon is the only unique character :-/. Secondly i believe that plague marines should also have a 2+ save, aswell as toughness 5 and feel no pain. But we should change fearless to stubborn. Khorne berserkers should be strength 5. IOK should allow not only an extra attack but an extra strength. IOT should allow the aspiring champ of a normal squad to use 1 psychic power or 5+invulnerable mmm picky :-). Land raiders need more choice because what do we get 1 type where as the imperium have 5 or 6 :-s.

darkhorse19 wrote: Secondly i believe that plague marines should also have a 2+ save, aswell as toughness 5 and feel no pain. .

And should cost 30-35 points if they get that stat line...

I agree that there should be more Eternal Warrior in the next Chaos Codecies, as well as variant Land Raiders and Drop Pods.

You'll likely see a flyer or skimmer transport of some kind, too.

why on earth would Plague Marines have a 2+ save?

they arn't terminators.

Plague Marines have FnP and T5 for their durability, which is actually better then a Terminator with FnP. Plague Marines are insanely good right now(its the rest of the codex thats )

Kronk: we dont need drop pods because chaos get dread claws which are better than normal ones because it can keep going up and down each turn.
Grey templar: think of plague marines as having a mutated back that has turned into some sort of freakish hide similar to there guts hangin out.

Well, the Dread Claw is only available in an IA book, right? Something that lets the power armored guys deep strike should be in the codex.

I'm not a fan of the Dreadclaw, actually. Drop pods would get the job done without the fussy Dread Claw rules. Just my opinion, of course.

darkhorse19 wrote:
Grey templar: think of plague marines as having a mutated back that has turned into some sort of freakish hide similar to there guts hangin out.

and you think that warrents a 2+ save?

3+ with 4+ FnP is just right for them.


you want 2+ with FnP, wait for Deathguard Terminators(and they will run you 55 pts a pop too)

If you look at most Chaos list they are mostly the same Lashes or warp time, Chosen or termicide, Berzekers or PM, Defilers or Oblits. It is not very Chaotic!

Look at the list people ask to Crit they are all the same, and then someone gets the incredible idea that no body has thought of before.

"I can run a 9 monster army. I am so cool"

The codex lacks balls, and variety.

Darkhorse I'm not going to go back to the quote but how is Abaddon the only unique HQ? I seem to remember Huron Blackheart, Kharn, Fabius Bile, Ahriman, typhus, or Lucius? Or were those removed?

They're still there.

AustonT wrote:Darkhorse I'm not going to go back to the quote but how is Abaddon the only unique HQ? I seem to remember Huron Blackheart, Kharn, Fabius Bile, Ahriman, typhus, or Lucius? Or were those removed?

He's complaining, if you can decipher his cryptic posting style, that only Abbadon has Eternal Warrior.

Edit: Weird. I can't find his post, now. Did a few threads get merged together?

No its been changed but doesn't say edited...wierd. As far as Eternal Warrior, who cares? In the BA Codex the most deserving character for EW was Dante and it went to the absolute fail of his replacement sculpt. Doesnt Crassius or wahterver the UM Chap have EW. Most EW models are the super suck IMO, you cant bring the pain AND have EW seems to be the rule.

All Chaos Sorcerors should have stronger powers and the ability to upgrade to two or three powers a turn. They turned to Chaos for the promise of power, not to be outclassed by people that claim they don't even use psykers.

There should be some sort of rule that gives even Troops an edge over loyalists. They've been fighting against them for ten thousand years, and the run away, turn around, shoot thing still surprises them?

TRAITOR GAURD!!!!

I cant stress that enough it should have gaurd as cheaper troops (and get squadrens of tanks as well hehehehehehehehe),
and I want summoned and greater daemons to be A L:OT goddammed better...

Also daemon hammers (the equivilent to thunder hammers, because there just plain AWSOME!!!!)

No daemon hammers for Chaos. the GKs took the name already, for a Hammer that kills daemons.

Grey Templar wrote:No daemon hammers for Chaos. the GKs took the name already, for a Hammer that kills daemons.

Then how bout we go the way of Space Marine, in place of thunder hammers, raptors get Daemon Mauls, big spiked wrecking ball on the end of a huge stick that holds the power of an angry daemon.

Daemon weapons are meant to be incredibly rare though.

There should be traitor troopers, heretical technology, a few new psychic powers (like one that summons daemons without an icon).

And a Codex: Alpha Legion.

Personally, I would like the Renegade codex to be themed around mutants, cultists, traitor guard and who knows what else just as much as the Renegade Astartes chapters. IMHO, It would fit the renegade fluff much better, as these warbands can't just be comprised of a weakened Astartes chapter in order to survive. It would also fit the fluff for my own host better, as my renegade host is severly weakened as a Chapter, but is comprised mostly of the mortal followers and degenerates listed above, and the current rules only let me play the Astartes element.

If my special HQ who is a direct servant of one of the dark gods doesn't have eternal warrior, but a stupid space wolf can, we have issues.

Also, were are my cultists at.

I want synergy bonuses from my HQs like Codex Vanilla Marine. (not the same ones but something comparable)

I want to put whole squads on daemonic mounts.

I want an assault transpo for my khorne zerkers that is less than 220 pts or is a flying landraider like the BA and GK have.

I want some way to get a 3+inv on my termies

I want fast attack options that dont suck royal **** **** ****** ***** ***** in the **** with a ***** for the *****

I want dreadnoughts that dont do more damage to me than my opponent

I want Cypher to make up his mind.(please come back. I can change I swear it)

I want tank upgrades similar to the marks.

I want my Khorne zerkers to NOT be slightly weaker Death Company with BS for upgrade options and still slightly more expensive

I want Combi-Weapon bitz since EVERY TERMIE can have one they should be more available

I want Thousand Sons options that make them NOT a points sink

Make spawn not suck or remove them from the book

How about giving oblits the ability to bolster defenses and repair tanks since they have orange monkeys copying them in a similar fashion to what death co. did to khorne

I want the book to feel like its not another marine dex by mutating the tanks a bit. Example: a plague mortar tank instead of whirlwinds (and for the love of Nurgle don't give it the same friggin weapon stats)

I want them to quit trying to convince us that Chaos it too stupid to put a sidecar on a motorcycle. I can understand not having land speeders due to the effects of chaos on the blah blah main deflector dish, but I cant justify believing chaos is too dumb to manage something that predates WWI.

If Chaos is going to be out Tech'd by every codex then either drop their points or use the Daemon angle to soup em up. Im tired of having the same thing only less effective and more expensive than every other marine dex.

Finally I want to be able to play my chaos and not feel like I am watching G.I. Joe and hoping cobra wins this time.

I feel better now that i got all that out...

EDIT

AND.....

I want Doomrider and a piece of wargear that neuters matt ward and keeps him the hell away from my beloved Gods. Throw in some chaos sisters while youre at it. Tzeentch has tentacles so there should be some converts.

juraigamer wrote:If my special HQ who is a direct servant of one of the dark gods doesn't have eternal warrior, but a stupid space wolf can, we have issues.
Also, were are my cultists at.

So agreeed, on so many levels...

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No daemon hammers for Chaos. the GKs took the name already, for a Hammer that kills daemons.

Then how bout we go the way of Space Marine, in place of thunder hammers, raptors get Daemon Mauls, big spiked wrecking ball on the end of a huge stick that holds the power of an angry daemon.

You can't just insert another word for hammer and try again.

I want a sorcerer dreadnought for my Thousand Sons!
I want a sonic dreadnought for my Emperor's Children!!
I want feel no pain for my Death Guard termies!!!
I want blastmasters for my Emp Kids' havocs!!!!
I WANT REAL CULT ARMIES!!!!!

Durza wrote:And a Codex: Alpha Legion.

It already exists. It has loads of options. Its cleverly disguised as Codex: Space Marines

Grey Templar wrote:

Durza wrote:And a Codex: Alpha Legion.

It already exists. It has loads of options. Its cleverly disguised as Codex: Space Marines

How did I not notice before? Alpharius Hestan, Alpharius Calgar, it's so obvious.

Grey Templar wrote:and you think that warrents a 2+ save?

3+ with 4+ FnP is just right for them.

I know that he said 2+ in addition to FNP, but a 3+/4+ is almost identical to a 2+.

Against AP > 3, a 3+/4+ will fail 1/6 times. A 2+ will fail 1/6 times.

Against AP<3, no saves in either case.

Only at AP3 is the 2+ better (1/6 fail vs. 1/2 fail), and there really isn't a whole lot of AP3 weaponry.

Switching Plaque Marines from 3+ FNP to a straight 2+ would make things a lot easier.

except it won't happen and it makes zero sense. They arn't wearing Artificer or Terminator armor.

Plague Marines are really good as they are. they do not need improving.

I also want a codex that will (rules wise) kick the -insert word- all over the GK (well someone has to teach them a lesson, why not CSM...)

happygolucky wrote:I also want a codex that will (rules wise) kick the -insert word- all over the GK (well someone has to teach them a lesson, why not CSM...)

Because there's no reason other than pitiful hate fueled wishlisting?

iproxtaco wrote:

happygolucky wrote:I also want a codex that will (rules wise) kick the -insert word- all over the GK (well someone has to teach them a lesson, why not CSM...)

Because there's no reason other than pitiful hate fueled wishlisting?

Yes...

YES...