A little about me first. I have been a member for a couple of years now. I was an avid 40k player, collector, and modeler for the last decade. Recently I have began to stray away from the game. I stopped buying GW at retail. Instead I chose to buy on ebay and forums like this one. Recently due to hard economic times I began selling off a very, very vast collection. Since beginning to sell off all my stuff I have become quite hooked on selling on ebay. I have began buying up large lots of WHFB, and 40k breaking them down and selling them on ebay. This has been a nice little source of income for me and my GF and I have recently started our own LLC so we can start buying items wholesale and sell on ebay.

I bought a rather large lot of Tyranids a few weeks ago and included in the lot was a GW giftcard for 88 dollars. Since selling off the rest of the lot paid for the lot and made me a bit of profit I decided that I would spend the giftcard on myself. It was either that or pay retail to resell at less than retail. Since I am no longer playing either 40k or WHFB I decided to just find something that would be fun to assemble and paint. So I hit up the GW website and spent a few hours browsing all the models they currently offer. They of course have a ton of pretty cool models but I kept coming back to the Chaos Lord on Manticore. Imo it is a great looking kit, plus it comes with both a Chaos Lord and a Chaos Sorcerer, leaving the door open for another cool model and conversion after finishing the Manticore. So the next day I was off to my local GW. I have been their one other time and don't care for it to much. It is dinky and not a lot of room for gaming.

So anyways my GF and I walk in and I start browsing around. Within a minute or 2 the employee approaches me and we begin chatting. I tell him that I am browsing atm but was pretty much decided on the Manticore. I told him I spent hours online looking at all the different models available. The next thing I know he's pulling a Zombie Dragon off the shelf and starts telling me how cool it is. I myself do not care much for the model as it looks like its squatting to take a big old dump (which is probably made from "finecast" resin). I just sort of shrug it off and get my Manticore plus some paints. Once everything was all said and done I paid .68 cents out of pocket.

On the way home it hit me. He was upselling. The Crapping Zombie Dragon was 7 dollars more than the manticore. Why must GW do this? I am all for helpful staff and promoting the hobby, but imo he was doing neither. He was just trying to get more money from me. Thank goodness it will be a long long time before I set foot in another GW.

um... it is a retail store and he is a salesperson... trying to make a profit?

Lots of people need that type of help and are not exposed to all the new models like us nerds on the internet.

I am not sure what you expect... If you walked in and the salesperson sat behind the register and ignored you and said nothing as you checked out, it would be 'customer service sucks!'

This behavior is exactly what I see at every single retail store everywhere. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

There are tons of threads about this. It seems the consensus AFAIK is that GW strategy is trying to get you to impulse buy. It doesn't really work though, since I never impulse buy something that is more than 10$

It's just what you have to do at your terrible little retail job when you work a terrible little retail job.
We might like to think that a hobby related store should be a some sort of sanctuary from that sort of thing, a conclave of like minded individuals, but really that guys just been told to sell more stuff or they'll replace him with a fourteen year old.

i was in retail in several different places for a few years and its always like that, upsell every customer it gets drilled into you, its actually what i expect when i walk into a GW store, which i never really do anymore.

If you pay close enough attention, you'll realise that most companies/retail actually use upselling. Though not so much with the "In your face, ignoring previous information you might have provided to help the upsell be sucessful" ™ and "Cram the new stuff down your throat" ™ strategies.

nkelsch wrote:um... it is a retail store and he is a salesperson... trying to make a profit?

Lots of people need that type of help and are not exposed to all the new models like us nerds on the internet.

I am not sure what you expect... If you walked in and the salesperson sat behind the register and ignored you and said nothing as you checked out, it would be 'customer service sucks!'

This behavior is exactly what I see at every single retail store everywhere. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

I agree with you if someone comes in with no idea what they are doing. I however did, and made it clear from the beginning that I did. All he managed to do was turn me off from shopping at GW again. Sometimes the best sales come from just being friendly and talkative, not reaching into my pocket. If they are so driven on sales maybe they should train them how to be effective with the different sorts of customers they deal with. Instead they are formatted to one specific strategy. Any salesman worth his salt realizes that everyone is different, and should be handled differently. I think I will just stick to paying below retail on ebay.

I’ve never been a fan of the “cram suggestions down the customer’s throat” strategy. If someone attempts this, it usually dissuades me from buying stuff in the store. If I see a “used car salesman”, I’ll usually not make eye contact and keep my distance to avoid any sort of up selling.

For what its worth, in my personal experience, when I worked at a fast food place for 3 years, I found that being friendly and honest with the customer was a more effective strategy to get the customer to buy more stuff than up selling. The trick was to be honest, talk on the same level as the customer and distance yourself from any issues with the store/company. The up selling strategy in my personal experience only ever worked on pensioners and idiots.

candy.man wrote:I’ve never been a fan of the “cram suggestions down the customer’s throat” strategy. If someone attempts this, it usually dissuades me from buying stuff in the store. If I see a “used car salesman”, I’ll usually not make eye contact and keep my distance to avoid any sort of up selling.

For what its worth, in my personal experience, when I worked at a fast food place for 3 years, I found that being friendly and honest with the customer was a more effective strategy to get the customer to buy more stuff than up selling. The trick was to be honest, talk on the same level as the customer and distance yourself from any issues with the store/company. The up selling strategy in my personal experience only ever worked on pensioners and idiots.

Well said.

To the OP, I get the impression you gave him the impression you were looking at the "coolness" factor rather then the "point/effectiveness" factor. Add to this the face this is a store I see no problem with him picking out the most temping models you may want even if it's a little extra. At least he didn't try to sell you a Baneblade.

Noting that I only got into tabletop games about a month ago, years ago well before I knew what GW was I walked into a GW store looking for a "cool" model to build (it was in a mall). Looked around, told the guy there why I was there and he pointed out their awesome balrog. Left happy with my wallet a little lighter and a balrog in hand. Though he did try to sell me a Baneblade -_-

If the guy would have been like "the manticore is a great model. Have you seen his awesome rules" I very well would have bought the army book as well. I feel like GWs sales strategies are flawed the whole way up to the corporate level.

This ties in perfectly with my other post, though I'm sure I pissed enough people off with that one so Ill give you a legitimate answer.

Up-selling and other sales strategies are common in EVERY retail store that exists, the salesmen in some stores are better than others, and large retail chains are the worst for two reasons.

A: The company does NOT and i repeat does NOT give one flying feth about you. It wouldn't give you a feth if you were hanging off the edge of a cliff and all you needed to save your self was a feth.

B: They hire uneducated unqualified idiots and don't train them beyond basic strategies that they then misuse as they are forced to make more profits or be replaced.

I can’t help but feel that the salesman in the OP had a flawed strategy, even if he was trying the up selling technique. He tried to get the person to buy a more expensive model when he should have tried is to get the person to buy more peripherals (like paints, blisters etc) to supplement the purchase. An extra $3 purchase here and there can go a long way. Fastfood places ask people if they want fries with that for a reason

If you are an educated informed shopper knowing exactly what you want and what it is worth, you never would have gone to GW's retail store. We all know you can get everything elsewhere for cheaper and can research what we want fully without seeing it in person when it comes to these figures.

So the act of stepping in the store shows you are not an educated informed shopper in most cases, especially wargaming minis. Most people who claim to be informed are shopping at GW due to impulse reasons as we want it NOW not later. I think it is very much a valid tactic to attempt to upsell an impulse shopper with more or better stuff. The impulse buy to go to a GW store deserves to be exploited by salespeople if they can... and if they offend you... who cares? They still get your money it seems.

I am unsure why everyone is dead set on saying everyone in retail or GWs stores are ignorant... Walking into a store like you are too cool for school and then want to be left alone by sales people is a ridiculous notion. If you are not there to shop, you are there to steal and hard sell is a way to keep you from stealing. If you are there to buy a specific product and you want nothing of the sales spiel, then buy your stuff and get out. Working as intended for a retail store.

Goddard wrote:There are tons of threads about this. It seems the consensus AFAIK is that GW strategy is trying to get you to impulse buy. It doesn't really work though, since I never impulse buy something that is more than 10$

Clearly you never impulse bought a baneblade before have you? Because I know a guy who did...

If you knew what you wanted, why were you loitering?

DarknessEternal wrote:If you knew what you wanted, why were you loitering?

Because my local GW is still 45 minutes away. Here in PA theres no laws against browsing.

And I think, Mr. Lewis, that therein lies the rub. By browsing, you were indicating to the salesperson a further interest in product. (Not an intention to buy, but an interest.) Now, he may have erred in the product he showed you, but you've as much as said that he could have talked you into another purchase. It wasn't his course of action that was incorrect, but his choice of tool in implementing it. It can be aggravating sometimes, I know, but it is his job. It works best if the sales rep can both upsell you and provide you with something that will make you happy, and to be fair he may have been trying to do that. He was just wrong.

We all have to do things at our jobs that are going to make other people we are dealing with feel as though they got the short end of the customer service stick. (Or whatever other kind of stick it is that you have to use at work.) I try and take a step back and blame the institution and not the person.

To be honest...

I don't have any problem with the GW salesperson's actions, and I think you're going a little hard on him.

Based on what you wrote, it seems like you were looking for a cool model to paint. You had pretty much decided on the manticore. The salesman than pulls down the zombie dragon, and shows it off to you.

I mean, is he trying to sell you a more expensive model?

Maybe/probably.

Is he trying to show you another cool large monster kit that you might buy?

Definitely!

From a hobby and business point of view, he did the right thing. Maybe you hadn't seen the model. Maybe you'd like it.

If you showed disinterest and he was being pushy afterwards, I'd sympathize with you more. But if you were browsing for a cool model, it is his duty to show you models you might find cool.

And maybe I'm a little biased because I think the Terrorgheist looks far cooler than the Manticore and I'd gladly pay $7 more for it.

Good gaming!

You seem to be looking for something to get offended over.

The dragon was *7* dollars more. Seven. That hardly counts as up selling. Now if you said you were here for a bottle of paint and he said "ZOMG here is this awesome dragon, you should get it!" then yeah, up selling.

I looked at both models, and they are quite similar. Could it be possible that he just thought you might like it?

If you ever supersized anything, you've been upsold.

I get your point, but I stand by mine.

The models are simply too similar to think that the GW guy was trying to induce the OP into purchasing a different model simply because it was (slightly) more expensive.

I simply tell the guys that I'm only getting *whatever product* and they shut up.

Biggest problem in retail is that sales are down, customer visits are down, and hours have been cut. In order to control whatever they can about their profit margin, they ask for greater customer service to try and drive the business of those who walk through their doors.

The biggest problem with that approach though is that aside from the "Hello" and "Here is what is new today," any additional talking aside from speaking to friendly faces or helping new people make decisions, they cannot talk up any special deals (read: GW has NONE as from online free shipping) and any overselling tends to be annoying and overbearing.

Plus many GW retail managers seem to have no idea how to impart this sort of training to their rank and file if they themselves have an inkling of what the customer expects. They expect to be greeted, possibly told about new stuff, and maybe help if they need help with a decision, especially if they are asking questions about a new product or are themselves new to the hobby.

And here I thought this was going to be a humorous comparison thread, saying why we hated used car dealers and substituting with GW. I hate car dealers when you buy ALL your cars at their lot, then they try to sell you a keyed up car with major damage at a high price, and when you mention all the other money you've spent there, they give you a blank stare...sounds like GW.
Me: "I've spent $3,478 dollars on GW stuff."
GW staffer: "Great, then you wouldn't mind adding only a tiny bit more and buying the Spear of Siccarius."

(NEVER HAPPENED-TOTALLY MADE UP!!)

I don't go into the GW in San Jose because the high pressure atmosphere is annoying. I've been to several FLGS's that have encouraged me to spend more money by being helpful and informative and showing me different products without ramming them down my throat. I don't want to be followed around by some dweeb acting like a Korean grocer in a Spike Lee movie.

I give GW store staff a break.

From annecdotal evidence here, in other threads and from other pople I know it seems that the sales techniques of a lot of staff is pretty poor.

It's not the fault of the staff if they are doing something which either doesnt come naturally to them or are having to achieve targets which may or may not be possible.

Unfortunately that's business.

"Do you need help?" is a fairly standard greeting in most places and I think the entire layout of the shop doesn't help.

It's a confined space as most GW stores are quite small and here's someone showing off stuff that YOU know you don't want (but he doesn't without mind reading ability, his job is to show off models).

It all adds up to a fairly uncomfortable minute of your life of getting rid of the guy so you can have a look at what you want but ultimately that's what he's paid to do so you can't be too harsh on them.

I can't think of a single other shop I have worked or shopped in that practices the same kind of hostile upselling that GW shops do. It is not standard retail practice, at least in the UK. It is obnoxious and poorly thought out, and has cost them sales in many places. Near everyone I know who plays no longer shops in GW stores due to their aggressive sales techniques, and have instead gone for purchasing online from third parties, not due to the discounts, but due to the poor service they recieve from GW stores.

Ok, let me first start off by acknowledging the fact that, in my perusal of this thread, many people have stated about half of my two cents on this subject. Yes, it is a retail store, and like all retail stores, the salespeople are 'programmed' to upsell. But you forget; the majority of actual Games Workshop stores are run by a single person. The mall stores, the bunkers, and some of the larger stand-alone stores do have more employees, but most don't. So its up to that one person to give out the 'freebie' models and painting lessons, solve disputes if they arise, answer various questions from people playing at their tables, stock/inventory, etc. And on top of that, they have to make sales. Yes, it comes back to it. It is a retail store. Chances are, on any given day, you're going to be upsold on something, or someone will at least attempt to do so, even if you don't go into a GW shop. But not all salespeople are like that. And I'm sure if you were to show up at the shop a little more often, and the staff began to recognize you, I'll bet you the upselling would go away. Again, just my two cents.

I just find it awkward. The horrible "I'm going to be friendly to sell you something" conversation.

I just want them to go away so I can browse stuff in peace and at my own pace. I don't mind having hobby related conversations especially if the store is quiet, but not when they are so false, it's a professional interest in the customer to encourage them to buy, it's not a social/hobby conversation. Good conversations do happen, and I find it happens far more at wargames events with stall holders, it's a relaxed conversation and ironically I do end up spending more.

Typically at GW it feels tense and false. I find my rare visits uncomfortable far more often than not. I've had a few decent conversations with staff who genuinely enjoy the hobby and talk in a relaxed manner, but the corporate nature of the shops usually restricts chat to recent GW products and you get a few fanboys, or feel they have appear that way to keep a job, that just make any 'chat' awkward and stilted with a few silences. I don't want to be rude and shoo them away, but it's usually awkward until they go off down the other end of the shop and leave me be.

GW are probably the most uncomfortable shops I've been in. I refuse to believe it's any problem with being social on my part. But that's why I don't go in often, that and the prices.

To reiterate earlier posts, GW stores (at least here in the UK), seem to be an experience unlike any other. Yes, it's a retail store and yes, staff are trained to upsell, but the point is, it very rarely happens in any other high street store you care to think of. I can walk into Game or HMV or a clothes shop or whatever you care to name and the most interaction I would get from a staff member is a casual 'can I help you' type question. With GW, its a whole other level of scrutiny and probing that to be honest, I find uncomfortable and unnecessary; it's one of the reasons I don't shop at GW stores.

Off the top of my head, the only other equivalent of pushy sales techniques that even come close to equating the GW experience are PC World or Currys, where the staff are trained to spot browsers and pitch to them.

Edit: And as I post that, Howard sums it up in a much more succinct manner above me!

filbert wrote:Off the top of my head, the only other equivalent of pushy sales techniques that even come close to equating the GW experience are PC World or Currys, where the staff are trained to spot browsers and pitch to them.

Edit: And as I post that, Howard sums it up in a much more succinct manner above me!

Succinct? I wrote more than you. In PC world and the like, a lot of the up selling is to do with getting people to buy on credit as the salesperson gets a significant commission on each one, that just isn't the case in GW.

I get what the OP is saying, as a general rule the sales techniques of the GW staff are not good. The oft told 'baneblade' stories are proof enough of that. The problem though is not really the staff. These guys are gamers. Some are gamers and salesmen/woman (although I am yet to meet a female GW staff member) GW train the staff to sell in the way all retailers sell. The trouble being that unless you have a flair for selling and understanding the customers needs then you will never sell to any great success. You must ask the right questions and link the products to the information the customer has given you. The guy was right to try and upsell but if he had asked the right questions he would have known what items to try and upsell. The OP stated that when shown the dragon 'you just sort of shrug it off'. If you had stated clearly that you don't like that model and want the manticore then there is nothing to say he would have not moved on to trying to upsell you the right products (paints, greenstuff, brushes, etc). GW are to be fair caught between a rock and hard place. 1 they need people with good product knowledge to promote the games, 2 they need good sales staff who can analyse a customer and get the customer what they want and need. Trouble is people who can do the second are not going to waste their time earning NO COMMISION for their efforts for LOW WAGES. Any salesmen worth anything will be off selling something somewhere else for a reasonable pay packet. So really its just one of those things that can not have anything done about it.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Succinct? I wrote more than you. In PC world and the like, a lot of the up selling is to do with getting people to buy on credit as the salesperson gets a significant commission on each one, that just isn't the case in GW.

Well you summed it up certainly more effectively than me!

Yes, the PC World people are motivated by commission and GW staff are not but the net result is the same for me at least; I don't enjoy shopping there (although GW is more uncomfortable by an order of magnitude).

htj wrote:I can't think of a single other shop I have worked or shopped in that practices the same kind of hostile upselling that GW shops do. It is not standard retail practice, at least in the UK. It is obnoxious and poorly thought out, and has cost them sales in many places. Near everyone I know who plays no longer shops in GW stores due to their aggressive sales techniques, and have instead gone for purchasing online from third parties, not due to the discounts, but due to the poor service they recieve from GW stores.

Same experience here, I dont know any high street shops that are quite so aggressive. Last time I asked about exchanging a broken finecast and was told I shouldnt shop at amazon just there.

And every time, we must be about 2 meters into the shop and she tried to sell White Dwarf. Also she can be a bit snide at times, my mrs also plays 40k and is looking at starting Warhammer, while looking at the Orcs and Goblins, she basically never acknowledges her and just said to me 'Well are you going to atleast play a serious army'

Backfired on them because, if they arnt willing to support their own product even if I have purchased it from one of their resellers, I'm not exactly going to spend money there and then out of principle (I should point out their HO said I could return it to the store)

I've worked in a variety of retail establishments in my tour of the world of work and have had and given copious training in upselling and onselling. Be it books, shoes, photography, Chinese food or sushi up/on selling is a part of it.

In the situation the OP describes the salesperson took the wrong tack, should have gone with the onsell (paints, glues, fancy basing type things) than try and upsell to something that's not what you want. And that being said I find the GW staff far too 'keen' I'm not an enthusiastic person by nature so I'm not going to respond well to their approach. Got to tailor it to the person you're speaking to.

Whilst I hate having it done to me (and hated doing it in most cases) upselling works. The number of times I could effectively make a customer spend £10/20/30 more than they were originally looking is immense.
I don't know if GW operates the same as other places but in the shoe chain that I worked the reason that staff member tries to sell you polish, laces etc is because *their job depends on it* if your percentages are too low you'll be managed out of the company. It's horrible but it's how retail runs.

GW are trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

I would rather set foot inside a GW store expecting to be sold to with smartly turned out bright young things able to spot an opportunity (and who know how to hold a conversation) than having to run the gammut of hobbiests who thought working at GW would be a dream come true who now find themselves desperate to meet target.

Keep, the wide, startled eyed, hobby guys in reserve for rolling dice and cleaning up the paint stations. I'll have a conversation with that guy in shiny shoes.

The problem then lies with the unrealistic target of goals set before GW.

They see declining sales revenue and push the customer service upon the employees without really explaining how to handle the finer points of socialization; watching for cues of displeasure, seeing the reactions, knowing when a person simply wants to be left alone.

But understand the pressure these sales people are under. If they don't make their sales goal, they get fired. It is a hard line to walk and actually deteriorates the customer service as the employee is thinking not to get fired first rather than who the customer is before him.

Maybe the GW stores around the Greater Toronto Area are different but I've never really been upsold anything. I'll ask questions and specifically say that I'm not sure what I need to buy and they'll actually help me with what I asked for, and not segue into a different topic altogether.

I don't mind going into GW at all. In fact, it's far worse at my "friendly" local gaming store. THERE, they start going on and on about all the different models and kits they have. "I know you play 40k, do you play Magic? Do you play DnD? Do you play ___________?"
Looking at the prices, I know they've been marked up 10%, sometimes more from other websites. The worst was when I walked in, looking for a specific model (think it may have been Ghazkhull for my brother) and the guy tried to convince me to buy models for Warmachine. Never going there again.

It probably doesn't help that most Warhams players (Warhamsters if you will) fall under the category of "Billy No Mates" (we use the term "Little Billy D-ckface" locally) and any kind of social interaction puts them out of their comfort zone.

It helps if you get to know your local staff. But I mean, why would you do that? They work for the Evil Empire.

I find it depends on the gw one of ours actually listened to what we were after (we were getting back into the hobby) and took the time to help us out.

The other store just wanted us to spend more on a completly different army. It might have worked if I had not just paid £6000 on getting my car fixed an hour before

This is just about the biggest gripe I have with shops, and GW are the worst of the lot; don't come up to me and ask me if I need any help - if I want your help I will come and ask you for it. I've come into your shop to browse - give me a chance to do so!

I've only had the upselling tried on me a couple of times, but thankfully they've backed off when I've told them I'm not interested, but I always get the onsell; "do you need any paint, files, knives etc?" "No thank you, I've got a set of needle files older than you are!"

Not that it's a real problem these days as I rarely visit GW now, what with the horrendous prices and all.

I have two friends; one was a Gw employee and one who was recently release because of Management issues.

Both of them told me what GW marketing strategies are. GW is only interested in the newer gamer. They want the staff to sell starter set to bring these first timers into the hobby. The Second part of the strategy is to push large monster, tanks, and finecast models before all else. They do this to raise interest in the newer models that are release.

Take Storm of Magic for instance, high point value games, large monsters, new scenery and a new book. Their goals are to sell you the newer things on the list first if you been in the hobby for a while. Now every army has to purchase monsters or models from other armies to play a single game.

It all comes down to this. Newer players + New army + new expansion + big and expensive models= Profit

Ok, i know they do this, but this time...

He offered a help, you accepted, them you talked about what you wanted: a bad guys mounted in a big monster. He took that and said "hey, there is something like that here, and its a new product, maybe you dont have seem it, and it fit with what you want".

And i really dont like to apologize for GW...

My brother wouldn't believe how god-awful Winchester GW is so I sent him in with the money to buy a Terminator Lord. He came out 30 minutes later without the model.

One guy "went to look for one out back" whilst the other one tried to sell him at least £250 worth of stuff. My brother even told him "I'm not even buying it for myself, I have the exact money for the exact model" and they tried the hard sale.

There's 'upselling' and there's being a slow. GW Winchester employees = worst. I'll never go in there again (or any GW). I look at it like this - if I'm going to pay the huge mark-up versus buying online by going to GW there needs to be some incentive. Genuinely helpful staff would be one. If I want the models today I can go in to toymaster in my hometown and pay the mark up.

P.S. - anyone seen that handbook with the 10 commandments they have? It's so mental! Every other UK retailer does fine without it.

Jonp wrote:Same experience here, I dont know any high street shops that are quite so aggressive. Last time I asked about exchanging a broken finecast and was told I shouldnt shop at amazon just there.

And every time, we must be about 2 meters into the shop and she tried to sell White Dwarf. Also she can be a bit snide at times, my mrs also plays 40k and is looking at starting Warhammer, while looking at the Orcs and Goblins, she basically never acknowledges her and just said to me 'Well are you going to atleast play a serious army'

Backfired on them because, if they arnt willing to support their own product even if I have purchased it from one of their resellers, I'm not exactly going to spend money there and then out of principle (I should point out their HO said I could return it to the store)

Let me ask you this. If you put your time, money and effort into making a product that you want to sell, wouldn't you be a bit miffed if someone got your product through another company for less? I'm not defending GW's practices, just playing devil's advocate.

Worglock wrote:It helps if you get to know your local staff.

Heh, exactly.

Daston wrote:I find it depends on the gw one of ours actually listened to what we were after (we were getting back into the hobby) and took the time to help us out.

The other store just wanted us to spend more on a completly different army. It might have worked if I had not just paid £6000 on getting my car fixed an hour before

That's usually the case. Its more a matter of who the staff is than GW Corporate's policies.

Eternalhero1983 wrote:I have two friends; one was a Gw employee and one who was recently release because of Management issues.

Both of them told me what GW marketing strategies are. GW is only interested in the newer gamer. They want the staff to sell starter set to bring these first timers into the hobby. The Second part of the strategy is to push large monster, tanks, and finecast models before all else. They do this to raise interest in the newer models that are release.

Take Storm of Magic for instance, high point value games, large monsters, new scenery and a new book. Their goals are to sell you the newer things on the list first if you been in the hobby for a while. Now every army has to purchase monsters or models from other armies to play a single game.

It all comes down to this. Newer players + New army + new expansion + big and expensive models= Profit

I hate to break it to you, but that's not how things are done. I also have two friends. One is a GW employee, and the other is his fiancee, who was the store manager for the one of the busiest stores this side of the pond. GW is not interested in just the new gamer. They're interested in both kinds of player. Yes, the starter bundles are big ticket items, but so is a battleforce, a couple more tanks and a couple boxes of specialist units. In fact, that's more revenue than the AoBR set. The AoBR set is about $100. A battleforce, two tanks and two specialist units come out to about three times more. So if I were GW execs, I'd want to push for more repeat business than new business. Because yes, you may have some people come in and drop $600 at once for their kids, but what happens if/when said kid decides he's outgrown plastic soldiers? No more revenue.

Now look at return customers. They may only spend $30 per visit, but over the course of their gaming, that adds up. 10 visits again equals three times as much as the AoBR set. If I had been a smart aspirant when I got started, I would have gotten the old Macragge set (which also came with terrain/scenery). But because I didn't want two armies and had no one to go halves with, I instead got the old Necron battleforce (also, I just loved the box cover, hehe, but that's another discussion). Anyways, its is usually more in a company's best interests to look out for its return customers than it is to focus on new ones. Now, new customers are important as well, and each set of gamer has its own good and bad points. But it takes both to keep any good company afloat.

htj wrote:I can't think of a single other shop I have worked or shopped in that practices the same kind of hostile upselling that GW shops do. It is not standard retail practice, at least in the UK. It is obnoxious and poorly thought out, and has cost them sales in many places. Near everyone I know who plays no longer shops in GW stores due to their aggressive sales techniques, and have instead gone for purchasing online from third parties, not due to the discounts, but due to the poor service they recieve from GW stores.

The only other place that has the same attitude is DFS. Awful salesmen that literally chase you out around the store and then out the door in desperation for commission. I remember shopping around for a couch ages ago and, foolishly, I decided to check out DFS. Went through the door and was immediately accosted with the "Can I help you?". "No thanks". I then proceeded into the store and was followed by the same salesman who kept walking up asking if he could help. It got so irritating that I just ended up circling round the store and went straight for the door with him following me.

zedmeister wrote:
The only other place that has the same attitude is DFS. Awful salesmen that literally chase you out around the store and then out the door in desperation for commission. I remember shopping around for a couch ages ago and, foolishly, I decided to check out DFS. Went through the door and was immediately accosted with the "Can I help you?". "No thanks". I then proceeded into the store and was followed by the same salesman who kept walking up asking if he could help. It got so irritating that I just ended up circling round the store and went straight for the door with him following me.

This is a common and valid tactic to prevent theft.

If you are there to buy something, then you should be able to say that and be taken to it by the salesperson where they will then help you check out.

If you are not, you need to leave the store.. and following you around especially if others are not in the section is the best way to prevent things from being stolen. ( I know you are not going to steal a couch but still)

If you really are not sure, then you should welcome the help.

How hard would it have been to say "I am here looking for a couch, I am unsure if I am buying today but I wanted to see your couches and compare prices." he might have been able to help you. The second you say "no thanks" you are loitering.

I see no issue. People shoplifting is a huge issue and I support salespeople being on the floor and in customers business. If that drives a non-customer or a their out of the store, then mission accomplished. If you don't want to be 'sold' things, don't go to a retail store.

precisly how was he going to steal a couch with nobody noticing? nkelsch

nkelsch wrote:
This is a common and valid tactic to prevent theft.

Chasing people around in stores is not common in the UK. Besides, I'm not sure how I'd sneak an 80 kg couch out the door. This kind of pushy behaviour is just unacceptable and just doesn't work in this country (UK). It often backfires. I'm there to shop. I like my privacy and being able to discuss my purchases with my partner without harassment.

Your comments about "If that drives a non-customer or a their out of the store, then mission accomplished. If you don't want to be 'sold' things, don't go to a retail store" is just insulting. I was there to buy a couch, however the salesmen saw fit to make my shopping experience miserable. I ended up going next door where I walked round, had the usual "can I help you" "no just browsing". After looking round and finding a few options, I nodded to the salesman for assistance and after 15 minutes walked out the door happy with a new couch and left a pleased salesman with a nice commission. Discretion and tact are valued and underused customer service skills and should be the first thing taught to all budding salesmen.

Also we dont really have to many gw in US but we do have air traffic games which recently stopped selling 40k and i go there buy tactical sqaud and razorback and he tries to start me a trynaid army with raveners and its so strange because I keep telling buzz off. but for Mr lewis its just some poor guy trying to sell you some models.

zedmeister wrote:
Chasing people around in stores is not common in the UK. Besides, I'm not sure how I'd sneak an 80 kg couch out the door. This kind of pushy behaviour is just unacceptable and just doesn't work in this country (UK).

It's business as usual in the US. Different cultures are different.

Can't stand shopping in the UK. A friendly "hello, can I help?" is one thing but I'm so fed up with the constant badgering on salespeople. Not their fault though, lots of shops pay minimum pay and staff need to get bonus's from commission.

Fortunately my local Games Workshop isn't pushy like that.

inquisitorlewis wrote: Since beginning to sell off all my stuff I have become quite hooked on selling on ebay. I have began buying up large lots of WHFB, and 40k breaking them down and selling them on ebay. This has been a nice little source of income for me and my GF and I have recently started our own LLC so we can start buying items wholesale and sell on ebay.

I bought a rather large lot of Tyranids a few weeks ago and included in the lot was a GW giftcard for 88 dollars. Since selling off the rest of the lot paid for the lot and made me a bit of profit I decided that I would spend the giftcard on myself.

I hope the OP is still keeping up with this thread because you really need to think about what Im going to say here.

You are doing the exact. same. thing.
You are making money off of an item. You are buying large lots of mini's in bulk, then breaking them down and selling them piece by piece, trying to milk every last cent out of them.

GW is doing the same thing.

Did you tell the guy you were only interested in the manticore or did you just kinda wander around and pick it up with a vague sense of what you wanted? Sales people HAVE to push stuff, its how they keep their jobs and how the companies stay in business. Dont begrudge them for that, its the same as asking you if you have enough glue, paint, primer, brushes when they make the sell, its just part of the business.

candy.man wrote:The up selling strategy in my personal experience only ever worked on pensioners and idiots.

Now we know what GW thinks of its customers and why it is simplifying its games.

As a recent 'born again' hobbiest, I can say that the guy at my local GW, whilst on selling, did very little up selling considering I wandered in and said I want something shiny. He was very matter of fact, and even made the comment that as grey knights were an elitist force then I would have to buy less models (I know that they sell less models for the same price, but hey I was a bit dazzeled buy the rules at this point).

Point is that aside from checking that i had paints and brushes ect he was quite happy letting me wnader off with just my brotherhood champion. Course i turned up 3 days later to buy more stuff, but he's never pushy about it.

Just my 2 pence worth

I don't see how GW can ever win. They're always going to get derided.

If they have people who man the tills and wait to be spoken to, hobbyists will complain that there's no soul or interaction in the 'hobby centres' and they're just the same as any other corporation's outlets.

If they have, or encourage, enthusiastic painters and modellers who like to bounce over to customers and rave about the latest this, or how about adding that, or did you think about converting this, the people who just want to wander around and take their model to the till will complain.

To be honest I think they just about find the middle ground. If you're being bothered by an over-eager assistant, just say 'I'd like to browse on my own for a while' and, guess what, that's what they'll let you do.

If you're looking for inspiration and the staff member isn't talking to you, a quick 'can I ask you something?' will equally get them chatting about the hobby.

GW has a lot of faults, but I think they don't do the shop thing too badly. And I say this with experience spanning 15 years in 10+ shops across the UK.

I've been in the Florence GW shop only once... The staff had been annoying and tried to sell me pretty everything in the store... After an hour (1 hour!!!!!!!!!) I came out with a metal grots blister... I never came back...

At the main independent store of the city the owner let me browse and loiter as long as I want always being there to make a friendly talk or to give advices... and guess what? He sold to me (in maybe... 1year and half or two..) 2 Assault termies boxes, 2 GK termies Boxes, 1 Stormraven, 1 AoBR and lots of modeling supplies... (he applies lots of dicounts)
How can't GW figure out that its selling strategy is a total crap???

Guess it depends on the store. The one in Echelon Village in NJ is run very well, and it's a one man shop. The guy who runs it does a hell of a job and doesn't really "push" like a used car salesman.

But he does put a crap-ton of effort and work into events and things at the shop that I make it a point to buy there.

nkelsch wrote:
This is a common and valid tactic to prevent theft.

If you are there to buy something, then you should be able to say that and be taken to it by the salesperson where they will then help you check out.

If you are not, you need to leave the store.. and following you around especially if others are not in the section is the best way to prevent things from being stolen. ( I know you are not going to steal a couch but still)

If you really are not sure, then you should welcome the help...

... People shoplifting is a huge issue and I support salespeople being on the floor and in customers business. If that drives a non-customer or a their out of the store, then mission accomplished. If you don't want to be 'sold' things, don't go to a retail store.

This is flatly rediculous. Preventing shoplifting is a huge priority, however, driving out anyone from the store who isn't sure, is doing research, or is just looking is counter-productive. It is very possible, thorugh placement of employees and effective merchanidisng to cut down on shoplifting without shooing out anyone who might not be ready to buy. If you make your store inhospitable to the looker, then they will likely never become a buyer.

There is a fine line between ejecting loiterers and creating a hostile or invasive shopping environment. Your procedure is clearly the later and you'd be hard pressed to find alot of successfull retalers who desire to treat their customers that way.

That said, upselling is a huge part of retail work. I've done it to great effect myself in the past. Clearly the salesperson in the OP's thread was not as skilled at it as he might have been, but it seems that the OP is being a bit oversensitive.

nkelsch wrote:um... it is a retail store and he is a salesperson... trying to make a profit?

Lots of people need that type of help and are not exposed to all the new models like us nerds on the internet.

I am not sure what you expect... If you walked in and the salesperson sat behind the register and ignored you and said nothing as you checked out, it would be 'customer service sucks!'

This behavior is exactly what I see at every single retail store everywhere. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

..

Working in retail, there ARE other methods then latching onto a customer as soon as they walk into the door like a rabid zombie would a newborn baby. Just saying, there are better ways then the hard sell which is all GW' knows.

SOME people expect, when they watch into the door, acknowelegment without picth, especially being on pitched on something they dont want when they tell you what they DO want(manitcore as opposed to the salesman pulling a zombie dragon off the shelf). Best to tailor your approach to your client....rather then just one method.

These threads crack me up. GW has been like this, or at least people have been complaining about this sort of thing, since I started the hobby a decade or so ago.

The consensus has been, in every thread, "aggressive selling doesn't work, GW is stupid."

For ten years.

So, either GW has ten years of sales data (including secret shoppers, no doubt), and chooses to continue their practices which don't work. Or they actually do work, they just don't work on some people. (or they do work on those people, they just don't like to admit it.)

Polonius wrote:So, either GW has ten years of sales data (including secret shoppers, no doubt), and chooses to continue their practices which don't work. Or they actually do work, they just don't work on some people. (or they do work on those people, they just don't like to admit it.)

or there might be other techniques that do work exclusive of being pushy, or GW stores where the staff aren't pushy, or GW getting sales from their online stores, or people going to non-GW retailers for product out of spite towards the pushiness in stores. all of these things can amount to sales, and that fact isn't necessarily an indicator that pushy sales tactics work--if any of those are true, it's an indicator that pushy sales can potentially decrease revenue.

these threads crack me up too, because even though i rarely go to the nearest GW store (it's 140km away), i never get pushy salespeople; the concept seems so alien to me. most of the time it's just geeks chatting, gaming, and having fun. if i want help, i have to actually look for it, and that's fine with me.

hemingway wrote:

Polonius wrote:So, either GW has ten years of sales data (including secret shoppers, no doubt), and chooses to continue their practices which don't work. Or they actually do work, they just don't work on some people. (or they do work on those people, they just don't like to admit it.)

or there might be other techniques that do work exclusive of being pushy, or GW stores where the staff aren't pushy, or GW getting sales from their online stores, or people going to non-GW retailers for product out of spite towards the pushiness in stores. all of these things can amount to sales, and that fact isn't necessarily an indicator that pushy sales tactics work--if any of those are true, it's an indicator that pushy sales can potentially decrease revenue.

You don't think they have sales data broken down by stores? To correspond to evaluations on how closly each store sticks to procedure?

Upselling works. For every person that leaves and never returns, it sells a bunch of product to at least a few others.

GW isn't stupid. It knows that most people, if they stay in the hobby long enough, switch to discount sources for their product. Upselling people that already aren't regulars is low risk behavior. When I worked retail, in swimming pool supplies, I wouldn't hard sell the regulars, because they came to my store for a reason. When a new pool owner came in, you are helpful and can upsell through kindness. But when a new customer claimed to only need one thing, I worked him hard. He's gonna buy what he needs, and odds are he won't return anyway. The OP is the classic example: guy hadn't been in a GW in years, still bought what he wanted, and then left. What was the net loss for GW in that example?

"I hope the OP is still keeping up with this thread because you really need to think about what Im going to say here.

You are doing the exact. same. thing.
You are making money off of an item. You are buying large lots of mini's in bulk, then breaking them down and selling them piece by piece, trying to milk every last cent out of them.

GW is doing the same thing.

Did you tell the guy you were only interested in the manticore or did you just kinda wander around and pick it up with a vague sense of what you wanted? Sales people HAVE to push stuff, its how they keep their jobs and how the companies stay in business. Dont begrudge them for that, its the same as asking you if you have enough glue, paint, primer, brushes when they make the sell, its just part of the business.

nkelsch wrote:
This is a common and valid tactic to prevent theft.

If you are there to buy something, then you should be able to say that and be taken to it by the salesperson where they will then help you check out.

If you are not, you need to leave the store.. and following you around especially if others are not in the section is the best way to prevent things from being stolen. ( I know you are not going to steal a couch but still)

If you really are not sure, then you should welcome the help...

Customer service is customer SERVICE, which means to me that if the service I require while I'm giving a shop my custom is to be left alone, then I should be obliged that with no questions asked. Your position that anyone in the store who isn't ready to buy or is informing themselves of what the store has is loitering is preposterous. Almost every highly successful retail business model involves putting the customer's interests first. Anybody in your store is a potential customer. If you want to prevent shrinkage, hire loss prevention and chalk it up as a cost of doing business. Most businesses fail, so drive customers out at your own peril.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:
You don't think they have sales data broken down by stores? To correspond to evaluations on how closly each store sticks to procedure?

Upselling works. For every person that leaves and never returns, it sells a bunch of product to at least a few others.

honestly, i genuinely wonder how much time they invest in their business model and their store, market, and client assessments. i wonder if they have a mousy CMA on staff, waving data at them which is patently ignored. they seem to produce a lot of very unhappy customers and don't seem too interested in improving conditions for their employees or customers.

and i'm not debating that they may meet certain goals through pushy sales, but if pushy sales are GSOP, there are known unknowns and unknown unknowns that might influence sales in a store or region not accounted for by their sales model.

Wow touchy subject this. I love how there's this love hate thing going on between Dakka and GWCorp/GWMinis. I never thought I'd hear so much rage about a simple trip to the store.

Bottom line, Sellers gotta sell. Sales are lean at GW Retail. Everybody and their moms Ebays, or shops online out state for 25% off and no tax. That's gotta hurt the pouches, so you try your best to upsell to the people who do actually come into your store. Not surprising really, all the retail places do it. Is it really surprising that if you're a new face in his shop that he (the salesguy) might actually try to interact with you and show you the new, cool model of the month? Heaven forbid.

gak, I mean really, does really piss you guys off so much that the salesguy would ask you if you needed glues, paints or files when you bought a model - how's he supposed to know that you've been doing this for 20 years and has set files "older than he is?" Getting asked for glues is like going through the fast food chain and getting asked if you want fries with that. One time I went to the FLGS (15 miles away) with the intent to buy glue, bought about $150 worth of models, Dvds, toys....and forgot the glue. Had to make a whole other trip, 60 miles round instead of 30...I wish the clerk would have mentioned the glue.

I know gamers can be shy or antisocial because they feel the constant scrutinization. Maybe you're reading more into this than that's really there. It's one thing iff you're in the store 3 times a week and get the "riot act", but if you're a new face it's not really that big of a deal, certainly more than what I've seen being made here.

If the guy still bugs tell him "Hey bro, I got this. I'll let you know if I need anything."

Since moving to Maryland I have been to a few GW's, and have been exposed to the GW sales approach. To be honest with you it doesn't bother me as much as I have seen some of the other people complain on dakka. I just treat them politely because I know they are under pressure to sell.

GG

I have a question for all those who are arguing that GW is a retail business and their tactics are basically the same as any other retailer. Local game stores are also retail businesses, selling many of the same products as GW storefronts but these type of complaints seem non-existent*. Why should GW corporate stores be held to a different standard then their competition?


In the interest of full disclosure you do occasionally hear complaints about disinterested and rude LGSs but that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

Oakenshield wrote:I have a question for all those who are arguing that GW is a retail business and their tactics are basically the same as any other retailer. Local game stores are also retail businesses, selling many of the same products as GW storefronts but these type of complaints seem non-existent*. Why should GW corporate stores be held to a different standard then their competition?


In the interest of full disclosure you do occasionally hear complaints about disinterested and rude LGSs but that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

GW's a Corperation Monkey store, with the same "Hard Sell- Move Product!!" of a car salesman.

They are not the same as they were 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago.

Ask how many GW employees stay even 3 years....


They are NOT the "Hobby Center" that they started out as, for the simple fact that they are now fighting Aber Cromby and Fitch, and Shirt store 666, and each and every one of those simpleton stores in the strip malls and closed malls that don't actually sell anything you really want that they were stupid enough to locate themselves into.

Your LGS more or less knows you. If not they know your crowd and what you all want. You come in, each and every time on tuesdays or saturdays or whenever like clockwork and buy your stuff. Joe or Jane takes note, asks a couple of questions and keeps a note about your sale, and gets some more of the same in. If not, THEY are gamers and know whats going on as well.
Basic sales says that I want money, what do I need to sell you to keep you coming back and spending.

GW sell stuff, sure, but not to the extent that they wish they could, so they have to exploit you in the small chance that you never ever come back.

So if you drop 500.00 on one visit, who cares if you come back. I made quota, and I have 500.00. Why would I want you to keep coming back and spending 50.00 every week, like your LGS does?

You go back to the GW store, they actually have to try thinking of how to make 500.00 more on you. LOL.

You're saying that people don't want to make a career out of working in a minimum wage retail store?

My God, Grot 6. Your revelation is astounding!

Maybe he was trying to help? 7 bucks isn't really worth the up sell.

Depends how arbitrary the weeks, days, hours target is.

Todays target, sell 50 Zombie Dragons.

Tomorrows target, 1 million Baneblades.

Wednesdays target, survive in the thunderdome or sell 1 pot of over priced PVA.

Actually 7 dollars is 14% more. Not a bad upsell. Fast food is usually less than 10% upsell.

candy.man wrote:I can’t help but feel that the salesman in the OP had a flawed strategy, even if he was trying the up selling technique. He tried to get the person to buy a more expensive model when he should have tried is to get the person to buy more peripherals (like paints, blisters etc) to supplement the purchase. An extra $3 purchase here and there can go a long way. Fastfood places ask people if they want fries with that for a reason

This... Addons are what make you the most profit when I worked as a salesmen we all quickly worked out that our commisions were based of the profit margin not the total sale so getting the customer to upgrade to say a larger TV didnt really make that much more money as the margin is still the same (ie awfull) However get that poor bastard to buy an over priced surge board and an extended warranty and you and the store both make more money.

I often think about how I would go about the same job as a red shirt and I think convincing the customer to pick some up extra piants (you dont really wanna mix up that custom cool color do you?) and hobby supples would be the way I would go about it.

Glue is one of those things that has a crazy profit margin for GW, several dollars for something they probably get for a few cents.

inquisitorlewis wrote:So anyways my GF and I walk in and I start browsing around. Within a minute or 2 the employee approaches me and we begin chatting. I tell him that I am browsing atm but was pretty much decided on the Manticore. I told him I spent hours online looking at all the different models available. The next thing I know he's pulling a Zombie Dragon off the shelf and starts telling me how cool it is. I myself do not care much for the model as it looks like its squatting to take a big old dump (which is probably made from "finecast" resin). I just sort of shrug it off and get my Manticore plus some paints. Once everything was all said and done I paid .68 cents out of pocket.

The zombie dragon is not only plastic, but a far superior model to the manticore. The employee was trying to do you a favor.

I don't go to my local GW store very much, I think twice in 3 years....The last time I went in I was treated like a noob, and that upset me a little. I've been gaming since 1991 and to be pushed to buy AoBR by someone 10 years younger than me was a bit much.

The overall ambience of the store was oppressive and the staff, once they found out I didn't want what they were trying to sell, couldn't have been less interested. I understand that the red shirts are paid a pretty poor basic wage and they need to top up thier income with sales, but that's the same for almost every retail store. The big difference here is that GW stores are supposed to be 'hobby centres', not like an HMV or a Dorothy Perkins.

When I started gaming I could go onto my local store and quite happily spend 2-3 hours shooting the breeze with staff and other customers, playing a game of WHFB or 40K, painting, converting etc. Basically it was all the stuff I'd do at home, just in a gamer friendly atmosphere. I can't quite put my finger on when this all changed, but I'm sad it's turned out like this....

As someone who currently works in retail, in a tuxedo shop, I have to say that upselling is the name of the game. If a guy comes in to rent a tux, try and sell him socks. Better yet, try and get him to buy the tux instead of renting it. And I have to. I get graded on how much I sell, and how much my average order costs. That's just how I have to do business.

However, GW stores seem to be a horse of a different color. I know I would be turned off to the whole experience, especially since I'm used to my local game store. They can tell if a new customer is a gamer or not, and understand that veteran gamers already know what they want.

ph34r wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:So anyways my GF and I walk in and I start browsing around. Within a minute or 2 the employee approaches me and we begin chatting. I tell him that I am browsing atm but was pretty much decided on the Manticore. I told him I spent hours online looking at all the different models available. The next thing I know he's pulling a Zombie Dragon off the shelf and starts telling me how cool it is. I myself do not care much for the model as it looks like its squatting to take a big old dump (which is probably made from "finecast" resin). I just sort of shrug it off and get my Manticore plus some paints. Once everything was all said and done I paid .68 cents out of pocket.

The zombie dragon is not only plastic, but a far superior model to the manticore. The employee was trying to do you a favor.

That's not the point though, is it? The OP already stated that he didn't like the Zombie Dragon and prefered the Manticore. He wasn't buying the Manticore to use in a game, he was buying it because he liked it and wanted to paint it.
But I can understand the red shirt's reasons for trying to sell him the Dragon. $7 maybe $7 but it might well impact on the member of staff's takehome pay at the end of the month. As far as the Dragon being a superior mini, that's down to personal choice, and the OP had already made up his mind on that....

I don't have a problem with the sales person per say. You said you were looking for a cool model and had pretty much decided on what you wanted. So you left an opening for him to look for other cool models. Being that everyones definition of cool is different he was banking on the fact that yours was similar to his.

Now me when i go into a store i just like to look around. my wife calls it window shopping and maybe its. Im married and have kids so when I'm lucky enough to have some time to myself i like to just enjoy myself and look at all the other things before i buy what i want so i dont have to lug it around the store. plus i might be interested in seeing some games that might be happening in the store.

In your situation this is what i do when i go to a store were i know there are sales people that are somewhat pushy (not being negative on them i know they have to do it for work)

1 enter the store, salesman comes up trying to get a feel for me. I say good morning. i know what i'm after today, just want to look around, thanks.
2 if salesman continues No thank you I'm just looking around I dont need help at this moment.
3 In the unlikely event you have a brain dead sales person that can't read the blatant signals Sir, I appreciate your assistants but it is not needed and your ruining my shopping experience in your store. If i have a question i will wave you over thank you.

I dislike being pushed and to be honest ive only ever had to use option 3 maybe3 or 4 times and it was usually on an overzealous teenager in dire need of more training or an attitude adjustment. That being said i wouldnt mind said salesman above mainly becuase ive just started this hobby and wouldn't mind being walked around and shown a few things. Being and adult and knowing what i have to spend i can make an educated choice based on what i want/ what was shown to me. You never know the sales guy might have scored if your version of cool matched hes and you might have walked out with both modules.

I don't disagree that GW store employees are aggressive with their sales tactics, but by the sound of the OP's description it also sounds like the employee may have simply just really liked the other model. Up-selling is also possible and I don't deny that.

I went to a GW store a couple of weeks ago (my first time in this store) and the sales guy was very friendly and spent a lot of time talking to me and my friend who went with me. He asked us what armies we play and what we had in mind for our armies and he tried to make sales suggestions in those directions. He was actually really good at it, and if it weren't for me knowing that I could get most of what he was pushing elsewhere for much cheaper, he probably would have gotten more out of me. We did talk a bit about things that he was interested in and enthusiastic about, but that was more friendly conversation than hard selling I believe unless I was being totally naive about the situation.

I ended up getting a couple finecasts and a metal blister. Many people on Dakka often say never buy GW direct because they can get it cheaper elsewhere but I haven't been able to find a source for finecast and metal that beats GW yet. My FLGS sells at GW prices and hopes that you buy from them to "support the local store." Online sources like thewarstore usually just sell the plastic boxes. Anyway, while completing my transaction at GW, the sales guy tried to sell me everything they have in the store. Rulebook, Codex, Paint, Glue, Tools, Novels, Audio books and all. Not exaggerating one bit. It was a bit frustrating because I am not an impulse buyer and I hate saying "no thank you" over and over again, but I was not upset with the guy for doing his job. I'm sure he tried everything on me because I was a brand new customer to his store, but hopefully he will relax his technique with me in the future.

inquisitorlewis wrote: A little about me first. I have been a member for a couple of years now. I was an avid 40k player, collector, and modeler for the last decade. Recently I have began to stray away from the game. I stopped buying GW at retail. Instead I chose to buy on ebay and forums like this one. Recently due to hard economic times I began selling off a very, very vast collection. Since beginning to sell off all my stuff I have become quite hooked on selling on ebay. I have began buying up large lots of WHFB, and 40k breaking them down and selling them on ebay. This has been a nice little source of income for me and my GF and I have recently started our own LLC so we can start buying items wholesale and sell on ebay.

I bought a rather large lot of Tyranids a few weeks ago and included in the lot was a GW giftcard for 88 dollars. Since selling off the rest of the lot paid for the lot and made me a bit of profit I decided that I would spend the giftcard on myself. It was either that or pay retail to resell at less than retail. Since I am no longer playing either 40k or WHFB I decided to just find something that would be fun to assemble and paint. So I hit up the GW website and spent a few hours browsing all the models they currently offer. They of course have a ton of pretty cool models but I kept coming back to the Chaos Lord on Manticore. Imo it is a great looking kit, plus it comes with both a Chaos Lord and a Chaos Sorcerer, leaving the door open for another cool model and conversion after finishing the Manticore. So the next day I was off to my local GW. I have been their one other time and don't care for it to much. It is dinky and not a lot of room for gaming.

So anyways my GF and I walk in and I start browsing around. Within a minute or 2 the employee approaches me and we begin chatting. I tell him that I am browsing atm but was pretty much decided on the Manticore. I told him I spent hours online looking at all the different models available. The next thing I know he's pulling a Zombie Dragon off the shelf and starts telling me how cool it is. I myself do not care much for the model as it looks like its squatting to take a big old dump (which is probably made from "finecast" resin). I just sort of shrug it off and get my Manticore plus some paints. Once everything was all said and done I paid .68 cents out of pocket.

On the way home it hit me. He was upselling. The Crapping Zombie Dragon was 7 dollars more than the manticore. Why must GW do this? I am all for helpful staff and promoting the hobby, but imo he was doing neither. He was just trying to get more money from me. Thank goodness it will be a long long time before I set foot in another GW.

In short, he's done his job slightly wrong.

Upselling is of course part of it, any sales job is, and make no mistake, they are not your friend, they are salesman.

However, what he should have done, and the training (in the UK at least) is focussed on ensuring any upselling is relevant to that particular customer. Undead for instance, cannot have Manticores, so the immediate link is unclear. What he could (and arguably should) have done is to see whether the Manticore is for an army, or just a painting/modelling project, and take it from there. This done, and assuming it's for the latter, the Zombie Dragon kit is a highly satisifying kit to build. If it's for an army, mention Storm of Magic, as it allows you to field multiple monsters, and not just those from your book. And ultimately, though it seems irritating, this is their main job. Not interested in anything BUT the Manticore, start chatting about what sort of colour scheme. Hobby chat with a product link. Whilst it results in the same as overtly upselling, it's a damned sight friendlier, and less likely to get on peoples tits in my experience.

I spend a fair amount of time in my (several) local GW stores. I know the staff and I'm in to game or to paint/model on a regular basis. I've never been pressured into buying anything and I've never seen anyone else be pressured.
Staff have offered me miniatures that they know I want: "would you like to get that Ork Nob squad today?" which is fair enough I think. They've taken the time to find out what I'm doing currently and what I want and then they ask me if I want to get it. Seems ok!

I'll give a couple of examples of what I've seen in stores too:

Guy came in, staffer said "hey there, how's it going today?" Guy replied with "I'm just looking, not buying" and stomped off to the end of the shop.
So the staffer carried on the cleaning he was doing and as they both move roud the store they both end up next to eachother in the fantasy section. The guy is picking up Beastmen boxes and looking them over.
Staffer: "beastmen eh? Do you collect or game with them?"
Guy: "yeah"
Staffer: "which models are you looking for there?"
Guy: "any just looking"
Staffer: "no problem. So, what is it you like most about the Beastmen then?"
The guy then opens up and starts talking about his army and what he likes. The staff member carries on with the conversation and they arrive at a point where the guy says he feels his army is too slow and he's losing quite a bit. Staff member asks if he can suggest something and then puts a box of centigors in his hands- he explains their strengths & weaknesses and what they'd offer on the battlefield.
The guy is convinced and decides he wants them.
The staffer then asks him if he does much converting/sculpting to which the guy replies yes. Staff dude then suggests converting 2 boxes of marauder horsemen and 1 box of gors into 10 centigors and offers to help if the guy needs it. Explains it's more money and effort but you get more out of it at the end. The guy seems on board and the staff asks if he wants to get the boxes today and if he needs more greenstuff and glue to get the job done.
The guys says yes, spends £50+ and leaves happy with a promise to return to show off the conversions and play a game or 2 in store.

Another time a 50-ish year old couple head into the store with a list in hand. The staff dude says hi and "i see you have a list there, can I help you find anything?"
The couple are stand-offish and say no, they're just looking.
Staff leaves them too it and after they've spent 5 minutes walking around the store he overhears the name of some LotR they're looking for in the fantasy section.
He tells them that he overheard and that the models they want are elsewhere- he takes them too the section, asks them what else was on the list and finds it all for them. Once they've got it all in their hands he asked them if they wanted to take the whole list (they put 1 back I think) and if they needed any modeling supplies before taking everything to the till for them.


Both of these situations involved people walking in and automatically saying "no" and being quite offish about it. It's a conditioned response to retail staff to just say "no, i'm just looking".
Without being pushy the staff member perservered, found out what the customers wanted and sold it to them. It was great customer service and everyone was happy.

This is what I see in whichever GW I go to- staff being enthusiastic about painting and gaming and offering people what they want. Really isn't anything wrong with that surely?

Eternalhero1983 wrote:I have two friends; one was a Gw employee and one who was recently release because of Management issues.

Both of them told me what GW marketing strategies are. GW is only interested in the newer gamer. They want the staff to sell starter set to bring these first timers into the hobby. The Second part of the strategy is to push large monster, tanks, and finecast models before all else. They do this to raise interest in the newer models that are release.

Take Storm of Magic for instance, high point value games, large monsters, new scenery and a new book. Their goals are to sell you the newer things on the list first if you been in the hobby for a while. Now every army has to purchase monsters or models from other armies to play a single game.

It all comes down to this. Newer players + New army + new expansion + big and expensive models= Profit

I hate to break it to you, but that's not how things are done. I also have two friends. One is a GW employee, and the other is his fiancee, who was the store manager for the one of the busiest stores this side of the pond. GW is not interested in just the new gamer. They're interested in both kinds of player. Yes, the starter bundles are big ticket items, but so is a battleforce, a couple more tanks and a couple boxes of specialist units. In fact, that's more revenue than the AoBR set. The AoBR set is about $100. A battleforce, two tanks and two specialist units come out to about three times more. So if I were GW execs, I'd want to push for more repeat business than new business. Because yes, you may have some people come in and drop $600 at once for their kids, but what happens if/when said kid decides he's outgrown plastic soldiers? No more revenue.

Now look at return customers. They may only spend $30 per visit, but over the course of their gaming, that adds up. 10 visits again equals three times as much as the AoBR set. If I had been a smart aspirant when I got started, I would have gotten the old Macragge set (which also came with terrain/scenery). But because I didn't want two armies and had no one to go halves with, I instead got the old Necron battleforce (also, I just loved the box cover, hehe, but that's another discussion). Anyways, its is usually more in a company's best interests to look out for its return customers than it is to focus on new ones. Now, new customers are important as well, and each set of gamer has its own good and bad points. But it takes both to keep any good company afloat.

Whoa...sounds like you guys have been getting it rough. I never get bothered by the staff at my store, and when they adress a customer they aren't annoying about it.
Must be a regional thing.

My local store is a tiny place, 2 tables, one for show, one for gaming. Minimal stock. One guy (his name is Neil) runs it. That's right, one guy. He's in his early twenties. He holds Beginners classes all day Sunday (Fantasy, 40k and LotR) and Veterans night every Thursday. I take my little brother to 40k Beginners every Sunday (he's 11 years old) with his badly painted IG (I of course never tell him, just sneakly touch up the dwarf flesh dribbling down the odd tunic) and he along with 8 or 9 other kids the oldest about 13 have a mass game.

This obviously becomes difficult to control but he doesn't rage, he just taps on the table and calls out for quiet. He even knows all their names.

The store is closed Mondays and Tuesdays so he can work a 5 day week.

The guy is a hero, he's been running that store 2 years. He helped me build a tournament list and even lent me some models for a game outside the store. Rather than me Proxy.

So they're not all bad! lol

DivineSausage wrote:My local store is a tiny place, 2 tables, one for show, one for gaming. Minimal stock. One guy (his name is Neil) runs it. That's right, one guy. He's in his early twenties. He holds Beginners classes all day Sunday (Fantasy, 40k and LotR) and Veterans night every Thursday. I take my little brother to 40k Beginners every Sunday (he's 11 years old) with his badly painted IG (I of course never tell him, just sneakly touch up the dwarf flesh dribbling down the odd tunic) and he along with 8 or 9 other kids the oldest about 13 have a mass game.

This obviously becomes difficult to control but he doesn't rage, he just taps on the table and calls out for quiet. He even knows all their names.

The store is closed Mondays and Tuesdays so he can work a 5 day week.

The guy is a hero, he's been running that store 2 years. He helped me build a tournament list and even lent me some models for a game outside the store. Rather than me Proxy.

So they're not all bad! lol

You got yourself a keeper. Keep him happy with some sales and he'll make that local area grow.

Poor red shirts GW needs to invest in some training for its sales folk.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

gak, I mean really, does really piss you guys off so much that the salesguy would ask you if you needed glues, paints or files when you bought a model - how's he supposed to know that you've been doing this for 20 years and has set files "older than he is?" Getting asked for glues is like going through the fast food chain and getting asked if you want fries with that. One time I went to the FLGS (15 miles away) with the intent to buy glue, bought about $150 worth of models, Dvds, toys....and forgot the glue. Had to make a whole other trip, 60 miles round instead of 30...I wish the clerk would have mentioned the glue.

It does when they keep asking OVER AND OVER AND OVER again once you make it clear your not interested in paints, glue, or the newest hotness in models. There is such a thing as nagging yoru customer too much.

In your example it be like the fast food chain asking "do you want fries, soda, candy, chocolate, icecream, a hamburger" after you just said you just want value meal number 3.

Upselling is to be expected, badgering is not.

I guess the big thing is that you used to walk in there and it felt like a creative, fun place, where ideas and scratchbuilds flowed, and you just bought out of pure enthusiasm and were encouraged to get excited by example not by specific product.

These days, it seems like you feel like you walk in there, and are dressed in dollar bills, which the staff rabidly try to strip off you, leaving you cold, naked and ashamed with only a terrorgheist to cover your privates.



In all honesty, they are certainly not alone in this type of sales policy, I can't say I like it, but it is not that big a deal either... I think it is more sad that it could be so much more of a comfortable place to hang out in than offensive or anything like that. Then again, making you feel like it is cool to chill in the store for hours on end may be exactly what they are trying to avoid lol -

There's no point in pretending that all independent stores are much better though. Some will crudely up sell, while other treat their customers like an annoyance which is even worse. But there are a lot of stores that are great places to be, they have friendly well informed staff, they are comfortable and relaxing and you feel happy to spend your money with them. Very few GWs achieve this any more.

The problem is that GW 'hobby centres' can't represent 'the hobby'. They are a high street chain shop. They want to sell the GW hobby which management believe they can sell as an independent concept from the rest of the wargaming and modelling world. But that's a totally artificial seperation. The pressure to push GW as some unique entity means that staff have to talk only GW. They rarely talk about non-GW anything and frankly that stunts any 'normal' hobby conversation. It not the fault of staff, it's what a highstreet branded store does. In an independent hobby shop you could have a chat that wanders around any range of models or games, stuff on TV, comic books. With GW it's GW, GW, GW all the way. That's not relaxing. Maybe it works for kids that only know about GW, but for anyone over the age of 20 it's wearisome.

Big as they are, GW don't have a model range that large and a lot of it is only available online. All GWs are more or less the same, you can't 'browse' them as you would a more varied shop. That's why people get dragons and battleforces pushed at them when they go in the store. A good independent store is like Aladdin's cave.

It would be great if they had all their figure range in the shops instead of hidden away online, that they reintroduced the specialist ranges to the shops and they put Forgeworld kits on the shelves too. Their shops would be gleaming with all manner of goodies then. But they flatly refuse to do any of these things.

inquisitorlewis wrote:Since I am no longer playing either 40k or WHFB I decided to just find something that would be fun to assemble and paint.

inquisitorlewis wrote:If the guy would have been like "the manticore is a great model. Have you seen his awesome rules" I very well would have bought the army book as well. I feel like GWs sales strategies are flawed the whole way up to the corporate level.

Since you don't play WHFB anymore, why would the army book have interested you more than a different large, cool model to assemble and paint? The army book would have been an upsell of about 30 dollars to boot.

rovian wrote:just some poor guy trying to sell you some models.

Been that poor guy (girl) trying to sell things in a retail environment all about the upsell. It wasn't GW though, of all things it was teddy bears. I worked at Build-A-Bear, and the tactics that are being described for GW's hard upsell are the tactics of the UK high street in regard to toys and children's products. Show, show again, show something twice as expensive and hope that pester power will do the rest for you.

I lost count of the numbers of children who were physically removed from our store in tears because their parents were (quite understandably) not willing to drop forty quid on a rabbit in a princess dress. I also lost count of the considerably larger number of parents who reluctantly found another tenner for the princess dress having only intended to buy the rabbit, after they (perhaps foolishly) let me take their six year old round the store to look at the shiny things.

No, we didn't get commission, but we did get invited to leave our employment if we didn't make enough sales. I have a certain inbuilt sympathy for the poor guy trying to sell you some models, particularly in a pretty rough job market. Doesn't mean the tactic isn't incredibly annoying when pushed too far. (I do think it's reasonable for sales staff in a store to ascertain in a polite and friendly way if you're actually planning to buy anything, particularly given the habit of parents in these parts to use GW as a free creche. The job of retail sales staff in any store, after all, is to sell stuff)

Hard upsell - appealing to impulse - works like magic on kids. If GW believe the majority of their sales come from a customer base aged 12 and under, this is a reasonable play. However I think they might be wrong about that, and I have no idea why you would try this as your frontline (or indeed sole) sales tactic on adults. It's not endearing, and it doesn't build any rapport. I suppose if GW have a view that their customers can be bullied into buying stuff, it might work - once, before the customer in question decides they're never going back to the store.

I would like my GW store to stay open. I don't go there much myself, but a lot of people do go there a lot, and I would not like all the staff to become unemployed. When I do go, I'm intending to buy something anyway (usually something that's not worth paying the postage for), and I am open to being upsold some paint or glue to keep the staff happy. I'm going to fling that Devlan Mud around with abandon anyway; another pot is not a dealbreaker for me. I am not open to being upsold a complete army for a game system I don't even play, which happened to me a couple of visits ago. But this I agree with other posters is almost certainly a complete failure to sales-train the staff adequately.

Lara wrote:

I would like my GW store to stay open. I don't go there much myself, but a lot of people do go there a lot, and I would not like all the staff to become unemployed. When I do go, I'm intending to buy something anyway (usually something that's not worth paying the postage for), and I am open to being upsold some paint or glue to keep the staff happy. I'm going to fling that Devlan Mud around with abandon anyway; another pot is not a dealbreaker for me. I am not open to being upsold a complete army for a game system I don't even play, which happened to me a couple of visits ago. But this I agree with other posters is almost certainly a complete failure to sales-train the staff adequately.

Yes, but this is Dakka where it's in style to desperately want GW to fail no matter how it affects anyone else. Even if ithey don't realize that it hurts them because they've "quit Games Workshop" (but pay no attention to them handing their wallets to Big Tom Kirby again).

Lara wrote:

Been that poor guy (girl) trying to sell things in a retail environment all about the upsell. It wasn't GW though, of all things it was teddy bears. I worked at Build-A-Bear, and the tactics that are being described for GW's hard upsell are the tactics of the UK high street in regard to toys and children's products. Show, show again, show something twice as expensive and hope that pester power will do the rest for you.

I lost count of the numbers of children who were physically removed from our store in tears because their parents were (quite understandably) not willing to drop forty quid on a rabbit in a princess dress. I also lost count of the considerably larger number of parents who reluctantly found another tenner for the princess dress having only intended to buy the rabbit, after they (perhaps foolishly) let me take their six year old round the store to look at the shiny things.

My sypathies, as I'm usually one of those parents. But then again, I make it clear before we EVEN step into the store to the kids they may have a stuffed animal, outfits are an absolute no.

Hard upsell - appealing to impulse - works like magic on kids. If GW believe the majority of their sales come from a customer base aged 12 and under, this is a reasonable play. However I think they might be wrong about that, and I have no idea why you would try this as your frontline (or indeed sole) sales tactic on adults. It's not endearing, and it doesn't build any rapport. I suppose if GW have a view that their customers can be bullied into buying stuff, it might work - once, before the customer in question decides they're never going back to the store.

The problem is....they keep trying to work it on adults, which is why these threads keep popping up.

Worglock wrote:

Lara wrote:

I would like my GW store to stay open. I don't go there much myself, but a lot of people do go there a lot, and I would not like all the staff to become unemployed. When I do go, I'm intending to buy something anyway (usually something that's not worth paying the postage for), and I am open to being upsold some paint or glue to keep the staff happy. I'm going to fling that Devlan Mud around with abandon anyway; another pot is not a dealbreaker for me. I am not open to being upsold a complete army for a game system I don't even play, which happened to me a couple of visits ago. But this I agree with other posters is almost certainly a complete failure to sales-train the staff adequately.

Yes, but this is Dakka where it's in style to desperately want GW to fail no matter how it affects anyone else. Even if ithey don't realize that it hurts them because they've "quit Games Workshop" (but pay no attention to them handing their wallets to Big Tom Kirby again).

And of course you'll be there to keep harping on that point.

Aside form people complaining, there is always you trying to troll your way into everyones heart.

<text redacted; let's avoid grade-school style name-manipulations-to-insult-others, please --Janthkin>

whitedragon wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:Since I am no longer playing either 40k or WHFB I decided to just find something that would be fun to assemble and paint.

inquisitorlewis wrote:If the guy would have been like "the manticore is a great model. Have you seen his awesome rules" I very well would have bought the army book as well. I feel like GWs sales strategies are flawed the whole way up to the corporate level.

Since you don't play WHFB anymore, why would the army book have interested you more than a different large, cool model to assemble and paint? The army book would have been an upsell of about 30 dollars to boot.

I am still interested in the fluff of it all. Painted examples of models is also a good selling point for someone just looking to paint and model. Still wishing I would have picked it up that day.