Looks like they are indeed going forward with their "Land of the Rising Sun" line.

3D Samurai Preview Part 1
24-Aug-2011

Our first preview of our upcoming Samurai set! This set is nearing sculpting completion and will soon be going to tooling. We're looking for your feedback and comments. We'll be posting additional 3D Samurai previews over the next few days. We look forward to hearing from you!
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview

It looks...sorta passable I guess . I am inclined to agree with what someone else has said on their forums

Details nice but maybe a bit 'soft', swords look good but the head to big. But I'm afraid its the WF problem again on stiff, unatural poses, I can't see why a Samurai would be in that awkward position, what is he doing?

The head is too big and the armour looks odd in many ways: Too small shoulder armour (is that European chainmail on the arm?), too round armour flaps below girdle, pushed too far aside by the enormous leg. Still, as the head is removable (and replacable by Micro Art's samurai skaven heads), they have some conversion potential for Storm Vermin

Disappointing. It's not like samurai armor isn't well-documented with drawings and even photographic records to use for inspiration.

This is an example of samurai armor courtesy of Wikipedia:


There are numerous things left out or changed. Like Kroothawk said, the shoulder armor is too small (sote are nonexistant) , the lower body armor is not connected properly, and the head looks too big for the body. I do like the stern expression on the face, but he might look a little western. Not sure.

I'd love to see WGF get this right, as plastic samurai with all the great bitz and gubbins that they need would be most welcome in this hobby. But if they get it wrong, the whole exercise will just be a waste of time for me. But at least they're not giving him the Amazon treatment, eh?

Kroot the shoulder is actually correct more too a point. Normally the shoulder guards would be in place but being Samurai armor was made with thousands of small leather pieces it was heavily customised too the wearer based on their wealth. The perrys have several of their samurais missing the shoulder guards. That said on everything I honestly am unimpressed with these and honestly am greatly disapointed as usual with WGF. Conceptually and idea wise it would be great too see some newer samurai out on the market but as it stands these are just no where near the mark.

I don't know, it looks pretty good to me, though I agree the head looks large. Assuming its a typical multipart kit, the pose isn't important as one could change it.

Pretty odd subject material to try--Perry Miniatures fill this niche pretty well and are stiff competition...

AgeOfEgos wrote:Pretty odd subject material to try--Perry Miniatures fill this niche pretty well and are stiff competition...

MMM hmm I had 200 painted perrys and another 200 unpainted and I have yet too find anyone that comes close on those one.

Wow that looks...really good. Wargames Factory may finally be stepping up to the plate and reaching the potential that their previous releases have thus far fallen short of.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Pretty odd subject material to try--Perry Miniatures fill this niche pretty well and are stiff competition...

Yea, although I still find it ironic they claim that they themselves cannot do samurais in plastic (or at least well)

I hope they dont think "Oh well WGF already makes them, we dont ever need to do that" (kind of like Prussians, shame they wont make ones to out do warlord)

On the flipside, this could easily prove their point that samurais are impossible to do well in plastic

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index2.html You mean like these kenshin they announced early on that they were working co-op with the other companies.

Empchild wrote: You mean like these kenshin they announced early on that they were working co-op with the other companies.

Yea I know that there have been agreements in UK on whos doing what, I just dont like warlord's take on prussian landwehr

I think it looks fine. It's funny that people pull out schematics on armor for this, but buy up GW vehicles like they're made of oxy.

Another failure from WGF. Their record remains untainted by success.

It looks pretty good. Not good enough to warrant an impulse-buy, but if I needed 28mm samurai I'd consider it. I hope it comes with a lot of bits, so that it can be fully customized.

Ah. It's a Japanese model with Japanese weapons. Not a very good idea considering it's the most sensitive topic for accuracy on the internet. That and modern firearms. Blame anime.

Well, while its certainly a massive improvement over their previous offerings, its still a rather 'meh' sculpt. Might be fun for some conversion work (I'm thinking samurai armored guard) as a side project, but otherwise I think I'll pass.

chaos0xomega wrote: ...Might be fun for some conversion work (I'm thinking samurai armored guard) as a side project...

Glad to see I'm not the only person whose first thought upon seeing a new 28mm model is 'New guard regiment!?!?'

I was thinking tomb guard myself.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Another failure from WGF. Their record remains untainted by success.

Agreed with this sentiment 100%. WGF has been my greatest disappointment in model design. GW still takes the cake for decision making of course, but at least their models are extremely good.

This samurai has the dual problems of not looking historically accurate, and being badly executed.

Absolutionis wrote:Ah. It's a Japanese model with Japanese weapons. Not a very good idea considering it's the most sensitive topic for accuracy on the internet. That and modern firearms. Blame anime.

You referencing to this gif?

kenshin620 wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Ah. It's a Japanese model with Japanese weapons. Not a very good idea considering it's the most sensitive topic for accuracy on the internet. That and modern firearms. Blame anime.

You referencing to this gif?

Your image seems to be broken?

I'm not wowed, but I'm not terribly disappointed either. It seems to be a fairly good representation of the subject, certainly better than many of their previous offerings. WGF seems to get a bit better with each release, though I'm not nearly as enamored with them as I once was.

None of the links seem to connect to any news about a Perry plastic Samurai product. If it's true, then I do find it odd that they're entering the market against the Perry product which will almost certainly be better quality at nearly the same price.

I'll hold final judgement until actual product pics are released.

Drat silly link, anyways it was a gif with a guy whacking a katana against a broadsword. Guess what won

Eilif wrote:

None of the links seem to connect to any news about a Perry plastic Samurai product. If it's true, then I do find it odd that they're entering the market against the Perry product which will almost certainly be better quality at nearly the same price.

Perry isnt making plastics or at least I dont think they are, I mentioned the common thought that perry themselves said they couldnt do plastic samurais justice

Yeah, that's pretty bad but I'll withhold judgement until they produce a prototype and even then I might buy some for unit filler. I don't think anyone's going to say," Oi! that guy four rows back is not wearing period armor and his katana looks a bit sickly."

The model is rather lackluster. To me, it doesn't say Samurai...it says awkward teenager at the Ren Fair.

ShumaGorath wrote:I think it looks fine. It's funny that people pull out schematics on armor for this, but buy up GW vehicles like they're made of oxy.

Shuma when it comes too historicals it is all about perfect details. It is not sci-fi or fantasy where you have lots of room too add in what you want fluff wise and can explain away something, it is a representation of a person and the garb they wore during the time period. It's no different then reeinactors and what they do as they go so far too have a properly made replica of a canteen, or only smoke from a pipe because that's what the soldiers would have used back when. I sported a Samurai army at last years WAB tourneys at adepticon (suprisingly the only one) and personally am a HUGE fan of ancient Japan and the way of the Bushido. So when I pick and choose my historicals I want nothing but authenticity when I play because I am recreating a battle from back then and I don't want a machinegun, or a medival helment on my models.

Empchild wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I think it looks fine. It's funny that people pull out schematics on armor for this, but buy up GW vehicles like they're made of oxy.

Shuma when it comes too historicals it is all about perfect details. It is not sci-fi or fantasy where you have lots of room too add in what you want fluff wise and can explain away something, it is a representation of a person and the garb they wore during the time period. It's no different then reeinactors and what they do as they go so far too have a properly made replica of a canteen, or only smoke from a pipe because that's what the soldiers would have used back when. I sported a Samurai army at last years WAB tourneys at adepticon (suprisingly the only one) and personally am a HUGE fan of ancient Japan and the way of the Bushido. So when I pick and choose my historicals I want nothing but authenticity when I play because I am recreating a battle from back then and I don't want a machinegun, or a medival helment on my models.

Yup this is very true. In fact when the WSS Cavalry sprue was shown, some of the forum people wrote essay-like dissection posts to pick out the errors/dislikes

It's neither particularly good nor particularly bad. For WGF, this categorization is an improvement.

Empchild wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I think it looks fine. It's funny that people pull out schematics on armor for this, but buy up GW vehicles like they're made of oxy.

Shuma when it comes too historicals it is all about perfect details. It is not sci-fi or fantasy where you have lots of room too add in what you want fluff wise and can explain away something, it is a representation of a person and the garb they wore during the time period. It's no different then reeinactors and what they do as they go so far too have a properly made replica of a canteen, or only smoke from a pipe because that's what the soldiers would have used back when. I sported a Samurai army at last years WAB tourneys at adepticon (suprisingly the only one) and personally am a HUGE fan of ancient Japan and the way of the Bushido. So when I pick and choose my historicals I want nothing but authenticity when I play because I am recreating a battle from back then and I don't want a machinegun, or a medival helment on my models.

Exactly. GW vehicles (though I don't buy many of them either) are GW creations. They're something a GW designer essentially pulled out of their butt with a few nods to vaguely resembling something from history or pop culture. A Leman Russ or a Land Raider are whatever GW says they are, and even if they kinda look like some real-world tanks they are representations f a fictional model. Samurai actually existed. We have photos and drawings and paintings of them. We have examples of their armor in museums. We know very well what they looked like. There's no excuse for not getting the details right, other than laziness.

The bigger problem for me is that there isn't a good plastic samurai kit that I know of. If there was, then I could easily use it to make conversions for "fantasy samurai" or "tech samurai" or any other imaginary samurai I want to make. But if WGF can't make an authentic kit, then I've got nothing. It's a waste of plastic.

Johira... I don't understand the last part of your comment,you're complaining of a lack of historically accurate Samurai kits because you want to make... non historically accurate Samurai out of them?

Empchild wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I think it looks fine. It's funny that people pull out schematics on armor for this, but buy up GW vehicles like they're made of oxy.

Shuma when it comes too historicals it is all about perfect details. It is not sci-fi or fantasy where you have lots of room too add in what you want fluff wise and can explain away something, it is a representation of a person and the garb they wore during the time period. It's no different then reeinactors and what they do as they go so far too have a properly made replica of a canteen, or only smoke from a pipe because that's what the soldiers would have used back when. I sported a Samurai army at last years WAB tourneys at adepticon (suprisingly the only one) and personally am a HUGE fan of ancient Japan and the way of the Bushido. So when I pick and choose my historicals I want nothing but authenticity when I play because I am recreating a battle from back then and I don't want a machinegun, or a medival helment on my models.

I'm sure in their thousand year history a samurai wore a shorter shoulder pad at some point. "Accuracy" is only really meaningful when you have an era or specific force to target. As it is this is a pretty generic looking "samurai" to me, and considering your own point about the padding and the general level of accuracy this model has I don't see the big issue. It didn't conform to wikipedias schematic for armor. Samurai armor didn't really have a national standard and it's design and use sometimes changed dramatically within single generations.

Not exactly.

What I'm saying is if WGF makes a lazily-researched, historically inaccurate kit, then I can only make one acceptable model out of it: WGF's half-assed interpretation of a samurai. It only works for their imaginary world, and as I have no interest in their imaginary world it's useless to me.

If WGF makes a well-researched, reasonably authentic kit, then I can use it for what they want, or I can use it for what I want. It serves a purpose, and they might get a crack at my money.

Well theres another render. Still not too convinced

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview-part-2

We will posting preview of Samurai holding Yari next!

We expect the box set to contain 25 Samurai Figures. The armament will consist of Katana, Wakizashi and Yari. All will be armored with separate torsos, heads and legs. Arms, at the time of this posting, will have the weapon molded to the hand though that could change. Options for unit leaders will be included and some of the heads will be bare and a few may have face masks; all will have the option for Sashimono (back banners).

Standard bearers and musicians will be found in our upcoming Ashigaru set (which, at the time of this post, will have 30-Ashigaru in armor and armed with either Yari, Yumi or Teppo [spear, bow or Arquebus]). Other sets planned in this range are Samurai Cavalry (12-figures) and a Samurai Lord with Retinue (6-figures). All sets, at the time of this post, will retail for $19.95 USD. Tentative release date is October/November 2011 for the Samurai.

We are doing final tweaks on the sculpts and we would like all feedback to be directed to our home page at the link provided so we can take into account any corrections or ideas from those interested in posting constructive criticism. Mold cutting will probably start at the end of next week.

JOHIRA wrote:Not exactly.

What I'm saying is if WGF makes a lazily-researched, historically inaccurate kit, then I can only make one acceptable model out of it: WGF's half-assed interpretation of a samurai. It only works for their imaginary world, and as I have no interest in their imaginary world it's useless to me.

If WGF makes a well-researched, reasonably authentic kit, then I can use it for what they want, or I can use it for what I want. It serves a purpose, and they might get a crack at my money.

What is historically innacurate about the design?

JOHIRA wrote:Not exactly.

What I'm saying is if WGF makes a lazily-researched, historically inaccurate kit, then I can only make one acceptable model out of it: WGF's half-assed interpretation of a samurai. It only works for their imaginary world, and as I have no interest in their imaginary world it's useless to me.

If WGF makes a well-researched, reasonably authentic kit, then I can use it for what they want, or I can use it for what I want. It serves a purpose, and they might get a crack at my money.

No... you can use WGF's 'lazily-researched historically inaccurate kit' to make what they want or what you want to. The difference is that what they want is a 'lazily-researched historically inaccurate kit' instead of a 'well-researched reasonably authentic kit'. Either way you can use it to make reasonably suitable Fantasy/Sci-Fi samurai...

chaos0xomega wrote:
The difference is that what they want is a 'lazily-researched historically inaccurate kit' instead of a 'well-researched reasonably authentic kit'. Either way you can use it to make reasonably suitable Fantasy/Sci-Fi samurai...

So then why advertise said kit as historical then? Shouldnt it be called fantasy samurai or something?

Also you're saying the first sentence as if they should be proud of it

Shuma I know you usually go into the off topic forum and start arguements but please don't do that here. If you go back and read you will see I already said what you just tried too use as an arguement against me. All I did was say why historicals need too be acurate. In this case its just a bad model design and they would need too fix the shirt a lot better if they wanted too go no shoulder pads. The reason being is that they wouldhave sowed into the shirts themselves because they needed it for deflection. Samurai armor was made from hardend leather pieces so it was very flexible.

Well anyways maybe if we bombard their website enough (again), they'll change it

I think, the second rendering is a major improvement.

Kroothawk wrote:I think, the second rendering is a major improvement.

agreed

The second one is better, but that doesn't make me feel better. I don't want to buy a box of models in which some of them are sculpted by someone who doesn't understand human anatomy. The first preview looks like an artist's model in a costume.

They look pretty good to me. Unlike their previous abominations, these are models I would be willing to buy, if I was planning on making the right kind of army.

I don't see how anyone can say that is good? It is almost like I am lloking at a different model to everyone else. The thighs are wrong - rotate the model and look from all angles; look at the arm joint to the sword wielding arm and compare it to the placement of other arm - funky jonts. Is that me or or those feet both right feet!! Anyhoo, this is a plain lacking in detail sculpt and doesn't do justice the the samurai armor i have seen in person. It is a pale imitation.

Funky joints probably because they're trying to do multipart arms

Multipart works for say chainmail vikings but I highly doubt it'll look all that good with samurais

kenshin620 wrote:Well theres another render. Still not too convinced

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview-part-2

The new one is better, but it still has some problems. He appears to be wearing a western style breast plate now instead of a proper o-yoroi do. I'm also skeptical that that very thin crest will survive the molding process. It makes me fear we'll end up with chunky add-ons like on the GW High Elf Silver Helm helmets.

Also, it appears Mr. Shouty Samurai never learned how to properly fold his hakama and has lost all the pleats in them. Shame.

Absolutionis wrote:Blame anime.

anime has nothing to do with it, lazy researchers and unimaginative sculptors are the problem, comments like that just reak of stupidity and attempts to flame a popular genre in a place where there is guaranteed to be fans

I would only use these as fillers at most for a unit, with the main outer parts of a unit being perry models, but being wgf I'd not like to bother anyway really, its nice they try, but if they aren't gonna try hard enough to be half assed then why bother at all

Stella Cadente wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Blame anime.

anime has nothing to do with it, lazy researchers and unimaginative sculptors are the problem, comments like that just reak of stupidity and attempts to flame a popular genre in a place where there is guaranteed to be fans

Hes just referring to the fact that in a lot of animes, they tend to over exaggerate or misinterpret the power of a katana

Just like how Scandinavians tend to over exaggerate the greatness of vikings

kenshin620 wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Blame anime.

anime has nothing to do with it, lazy researchers and unimaginative sculptors are the problem, comments like that just reak of stupidity and attempts to flame a popular genre in a place where there is guaranteed to be fans

Hes just referring to the fact that in a lot of animes, they tend to over exaggerate or misinterpret the power of a katana

Just like how Scandinavians tend to over exaggerate the greatness of vikings

well its a sword that can cut through over a dozen 50-cal bullets fired at it......quite literally as well as it has been proven, so some exaggeration should be allowed

Thats why i dont like historical miniatures. I want miniatures who look cool, not acurate, and that is just a matter of taste.

I dont liked that first render, exactly for the shoulder pads/pauldrons. The new one is good enogh. Obviously i will use it for fantasy games, or sci-fi/steam punk conversions, if i ever use them...

Looking forward to seeing what the final product looks like, as I've been looking for plastic Samurai kits to help fill out my L5r collection.

At one point the Vikings conquered England and most of Europe, sailed to Constantinople, and discovered Iceland, Greenland and North America.....I think their awesomeness is well deserved.

Did anyone see the Viking vs. Samurai episode of Deadliest Warrior? Or Samurai vs Spartan? Katana's were useless against chainmail and heavy armor....

Not saying that vikings arent great, just like katanas. Its just that a lot of Scandinavian people I bump into tend to always remind me that they have viking blood in their veins. Heck I remember seeing on the sign of a town hall once in texas saying "Viking ancestry celebration day"

General Hobbs wrote:
Did anyone see the Viking vs. Samurai episode of Deadliest Warrior?

Its best not to talk about that show. Lets just say that beyond seeing people beat each other up, the testing methods are way too flawed

I left the following comment on the "Part 2" page:


Looking great.

Not sure about the face. Probably supposed to be covered by a mask - but I cannot see the ridge below the eyes.

--

It would be nice if your renders could show the actual depth of detail planned.
As pointed out in the other thread, detail has to be exaggerated when in 28 mm scale - and I cannot understand why you insist on previewing details that never will be possible to recreate in plastic.
It doesn't make the mini looking better - it makes the whole point of a preview rather useless (not showing how the actual minis will look).

Potential buyers want to be able to judge how hard it will be to paint lacing on 100+ miniatures...

--

Hopefully the rest of the samurai line will not have drawn swords as these are more "weapons of peace" than used extensively in war. For the chosen period I would go for the long spear (and musket) as the weapon of choice - especially considering that you would want to sell large units.

--

Nit-picking:
As pointed out in the other thread by numerous poster. Katana scabbards (if thrusted into the belt instead of hung in cords, tachi style) really should be carried edge up.

Having said that. This miniature is actually an exception to both cases mentioned above...

The Samurai in the render is drawing and cutting in one motion (Iai-style) and thus should have the scabbard twisted edge out during the draw - which is the very reason he is holding the scabbard in the first place...

To understand, imagine the shortest line from sword tip to scabbard opening. The sword should fit right in, without need to adjust the angle of neither sword nor scabbard.

Directly after the draw the Samurai will readjust the scabbard (edge up) and release it (no point in holding the scabbard while fighting...).

---

Making Samurai miniatures for historical wargamers will not be easy - but if you listen and adapt to the suggestions you might have found a gold mine.

Remember that Samurai battles were huge, often fielding around hundred thousand warriors, then multiply with thousands of wargamers...


---- SUGGESTION ----

Get the Japanese (with English text) book:
"The History of Japanese Armor [Volume 2]", available from http://onmilitarymatters.com and others.
There you will also find a lot of suitable poses. It is a gold mine for a miniature designer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and this on the "Part 1" page.


>Wargames Factory:
>... Our sources ... specify that when in armor, the Samurai carried the Katana blade down ..."

No, you have misunderstood the info.

Re-read your sources and look closely at the pictures. You will learn about *the difference between a tachi mount and a katana mount*.

Although both holds a samurai sword. The former (tachi) is indeed carried edge down - but is also *always slung*, never trust through the belt.

If the sword is in a katana mount (plain and without mounts - as in the picture) the scabbard was/is always edge up. Even when in armour.

Also, Turnbull's books are not the best of sources - especially as they tend to focus on the most spectacular of armour.

Stella Cadente wrote:well its a sword that can cut through over a dozen 50-cal bullets fired at it......quite literally as well as it has been proven, so some exaggeration should be allowed

...and this is why I blame anime (and YouTube) for all the "internet experts" that revolve around anything Japanese.

It's not the fact that it's a "katana" that slices the bullets in that famous YouTube clip. It's just plain physics and modern craftsmanship. Mythbusters even showed a bullet being split on a standard old-style axe.

The fact of the matter is, katanas are "cool" because of anime. Therefore, there are a lot of anime-lovers on the internet that go out of their way to research this fabled weapon and verify their opinion on why it's the best weapon ever. By extension, samurai fit here as well. Whenever something comes up regarding samurai or katanas, it's treated with tremendous amounts of scrutiny if anything goes against what is "historically" correct by the standards of such armchair experts.

Absolutionis wrote:[... katanas ...

Yes.
The best katana were/are simply a very well balanced sword made with great care using the best material and technique available at that time.

The same goes for the modern myth "ninja" - where peoples imagination is mixed with the urge to make money (from "descendants of ninja"-self proclaimed masters - i.e. Hatsumi and others, to Japanese tourist industry - claiming Iga and Koge provinces to be "ninja" and even historicans wanting to make a quick buck - i.e. Turnbull...).

The sad truth is: "ninja" never existed.
Obviously the term did - referring to sneaky tactics and special ops...
... but the whole concept of black clad super martial artists equipped with standardized "ninja"-gear and living in "ninja"-villages is absurd.
Reading historical Japanese text you will find references to tengu, kappa, rokurokubi, oni etc. - but not ninja

----------------------------------
----------------------------------


As for the real topic, I have just posted a new suggestion on the WF forum:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look at this range (54 mm) you will get an idea on what historical wargamers are hoping you will provide in 28 mm (and multi part).

http://www.firstlegionltd.com/54mmsamurai.aspx

-----------------------

As most wargamers will field a lot more ashigaru units than samurai, the two most important figure types for your upcoming range are the ashigaru with yari (walking, running, standing and kneeling) and the ashigaru with musket (walking, running, standing, kneeling - reloading, aiming, at ease).

Note that by getting the basic positions right you could use the same body to both spearmen and riflemen. Especially since spearmen tended to turn left side front when holding the spear in an offensive stance - having the same pose as riflemen.
Also, both musket and spear was held with the right hand when not in action.

Boils down to (suggested contents of an Ashigaru box of 10):

2 walking bodies
2 running bodies (left shoulder front)
2 kneeling bodies (right knee to ground)
1 standing body (relaxed, chest front)
3 standing bodies (legs wide, left shoulder front)

10 heads with jingasa helmet
5 heads with head band
5 heads with other type of helmet

2 arms with musket resting on shoulder (guard, march)
2 arms with musket at hip level (walking, running)
2 arms with musket reloading
4 arms with musket firing

2 arms with spear resting on shoulder (march)
2 arms with spear resting on ground (at ease, guard)
2 arms with spear tip raised (walking, running, etc.)
4 arms with spear trusting, left hand front

10 small sashimono flags
1 larger banner resting on ground, held by arm
1 cartridge box held by arms
2 wooden mantlets

-------------------

Keep up the good work!

The second render is definitely an improvement.

I did once vow that if I ever did horde guard it would be a "kurasowa" (sp?) force, with each platoon color coded, and each special weapon marked by a back banner. Wouldn't cost that much at WGF prices if they do a box of musket guys.

General Hobbs wrote:At one point the Vikings conquered England and most of Europe, sailed to Constantinople, and discovered Iceland, Greenland and North America.....I think their awesomeness is well deserved.

Well, not most of Europe. But in Eastern Europe they formed a ruling class called the Rus and an Empire called Russia. That's why many are still blond there.

kendoka wrote:

As most wargamers will field a lot more ashigaru units than samurai, the two most important figure types for your upcoming range are the ashigaru with yari (walking, running, standing and kneeling) and the ashigaru with musket (walking, running, standing, kneeling - reloading, aiming, at ease).

Note that by getting the basic positions right you could use the same body to both spearmen and riflemen. Especially since spearmen tended to turn left side front when holding the spear in an offensive stance - having the same pose as riflemen.
Also, both musket and spear was held with the right hand when not in action.

Boils down to (suggested contents of an Ashigaru box of 10):

kestral wrote:I did once vow that if I ever did horde guard it would be a "kurasowa" (sp?) force, with each platoon color coded, and each special weapon marked by a back banner. Wouldn't cost that much at WGF prices if they do a box of musket guys.

Well I already mentioned that they announced they're making ashigaru. But we havent seen anything yet.

Standard bearers and musicians will be found in our upcoming Ashigaru set (which, at the time of this post, will have 30-Ashigaru in armor and armed with either Yari, Yumi or Teppo [spear, bow or Arquebus]).

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Thats why i dont like historical miniatures. I want miniatures who look cool, not acurate, and that is just a matter of taste.

Different strokes for different folks. One of the things that is gradually pushing me into historicals and away from fantasy/sci-fi minis (though I haven't quite taken the plunge yet) is that too often fantasy/sci-fi minis, in their attempt to look cool, go over the top. Sculptors are constantly trying to outdo past models and make new models more and more epic, and you often see cases where the model itself gets lost in all the bling.

Take the recent Golfag Maneater for example:


This is a very good model, but he's just so covered in bits and trinkets that the eye doesn't know where to look. Now look at Malagor the Dark Omen:



This is a much worse model but suffers from the overly "cool" factor even more. I'm a beastman army collector, and it was a good month after he first came out before I even noticed he had wings- that's how covered with pointless trinkets he is. I thought he just had a scraggly cape. And wings are a rather central aspect of his character. Sculptors put all these details on hero models to make them stand out from heavily-decorated RaF. And as they keep trying to out-"cool" past models the problem seems to get worse and worse for some designers. My examples are all from GW here, but I think Privateer Press suffers from the same problem. As Yahtzee says, it's like the designer started drawing and never f ing stopped.

More and more, I'm liking miniatures that have a simple silhouette. You can tell exactly what they are supposed to be at a glance. They don't have to be cool individually, because their unit will be cool when they're all together. As elites, samurai are already pretty blinged-out. But they have a very distinct silhouette that has been well-recorded in history. They don't need help to be "cool".

Ok posting from my phone so I apologize if this looks weird and such. Damn storm took out mu power....grrrrr. Anyways never use spikes deadliest warrior as a refrence. Most historians have openly statedhow innaccurate the findings are on that show. As per peoples statements anime and asuch have distorted a lot of the facts behind the samurai and as far as ninjas they were just assassins or warriors with no honor. They weren't always black clad (or seldom honestly) and some were women. As per the katana it was and still is one of the best swords ever made. They would test it iin several ways using prisoners ie if it could cut through more then three mens necks in one stroke it was destroyed and recreated. Also it had a layer inside the weapon itself that gave too its strength. What a lot of people don't know is samurai were first and foremost masters of the bow. The katana came later, also a great weapon many used besides the yari was the naginata.also as a side note is it just me or does it seem wgf won't take any advice or criticism

Absolutionis wrote:The fact of the matter is, katanas are "cool" because of anime.

I seem to remember as a child thinking katanas were cool because of watching G.I. Joe and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles well before anime became popular in the US.

The Katana is a symbol of Japanese military expertise, and therefore has been famous in the US since the 80s, when fears that Japan was going to take over the world economically were everywhere. They're "cool" because they really are cool. Though I prefer to see them on authentic samurai miniatures rather than just randomly inserted onto fantasy/sci fi miniatures that don't have much of anything to do with Japan. There are plenty of cool sword designs out there. Personally I don't think the falx gets enough love.

Yah, privateer press was out in front of GW on the "too much bling" area. Sad to see GW hastily following. I agree that those models are overdone and nothing I want to own - that was my take on the new Ogre Kingdom stuff generally.

Absolutionis wrote:The fact of the matter is, katanas are "cool" because of anime..

actually myself and allot of people I know always thought Katanas and any japanese weapons were cool long before we watched anime, katanas especially because of the history of individual blades and the process to make them is fascinating, so HAHA.

its allot more complex than just "hey that sword was in anime, LOLZORRIFFIC ITS COOL!!!!!"
sorry but thats just simple fact, that a sword older than anime has been cool for completely different reasons

Akira Kurosawa's Samurai movies made katanas well known long before the first anime were shown on TV.

Yea samurai movies have predated animes in popularizing samurais/etc

Heck in Warhammer Ancient Battles the creators noted that if you didnt know why they allowed you to take 7 samurai heroes, that you should be ashamed of yourself!

kenshin620 wrote:... in Warhammer Ancient Battles the creators noted that if you didnt know why they allowed you to take 7 samurai heroes ...

Yes, I might have had something to with that - although in retrospect I really should have kept Jervis on a more realistic track with the WAB:AoA Samurai list. Sorry.


I have hundreds of books on the subject (old Japan) and could discuss Japanese culture and blades - I have many, including 500-year old ones - (and/or the ninja myth) all evening...
... but let us stay on topic and focus on the WF Samurai.
Please.

The second sculpt is better...well at least the mask kind of looks like a mask.

kendoka wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:... in Warhammer Ancient Battles the creators noted that if you didnt know why they allowed you to take 7 samurai heroes ...

Yes, I might have had something to with that - although in retrospect I really should have kept Jervis on a more realistic track with the WAB:AoA Samurai list. Sorry.


I have hundreds of books on the subject (old Japan) and could discuss Japanese culture and blades - I have many, including 500-year old ones - (and/or the ninja myth) all evening...
... but let us stay on topic and focus on the WF Samurai.
Please.

If you really were apart of the design for the WAB Samurai you know you are hated by most of the WAB community right? Personally I love samurai and if some solid ones came out again I would gladly build another samurai army. ATM though these are definately not it, and with WGF willing too not take any criticism too heart it's a basic why bother.

Empchild wrote:Shuma I know you usually go into the off topic forum and start arguements but please don't do that here. If you go back and read you will see I already said what you just tried too use as an arguement against me. All I did was say why historicals need too be acurate. In this case its just a bad model design and they would need too fix the shirt a lot better if they wanted too go no shoulder pads. The reason being is that they wouldhave sowed into the shirts themselves because they needed it for deflection. Samurai armor was made from hardend leather pieces so it was very flexible.

You called them inaccurate then defended their accuracy in your post. I was asking for clarification. Without actual, reasoned, criticism all you're doing is whining.

If you really were apart of the design for the WAB Samurai you know you are hated by most of the WAB community right?

Case in point.

I like both sculpts. One at pose, the other drawing his sword in anger. But then again, I am no art critic, and most certainly not a sculptor in any capacity. So I'll just place my emotional response here and leave it at that.

If you really were apart of the design for the WAB Samurai you know you are hated by most of the WAB community right?

Case in point.

Shuma as usuall you have no idea what you are talking about. My statement above was more too the tone that most of the WAB players out there "HATE" samurai armies because most players take just bow cavalry and ride around and shoot the opponent too death without ever engaging.

Yet you said the community hated Kendoka specifically. You can't beckpadel that until you edit your old post. What you said then and what you say now are not particularly compatible.

All you are doing here is trolling so for once just stop please because I for one am about too put you back on the ignore list...again! I have already stated my feelings on the innaccuraceys from WGF on there first sculpt.

Feel free if you have to. I didn't make you contradict yourself and I didn't make you single someone else out as a pariah. If having your postings questioned bugs you then why not put everyone on ignore?

We can tone it down a bit please, yes, eh chaps ?

Much obliged.

Regarding my involvement in the Samurai list - I only helped Jervis with it. It is not my baby (although I got credit for it in the AoA book).

It was never supposed to be an authentic list (just a fun stop gap) and if only Divine Wind had been released according to plan the damage done by the list would have been minor.

As it turned out (with Divine Wind being postponed - perhaps indefinitely!?) I am as sad as the other wargamers that we do not have a really good official Samurai list.

Thus I bow my head in shame and accept the hate without argument - although I think I might skip Seppuku...

Peace.

Well I wouldnt really blame you. Imo its really tough to make all encompassing rulesets to cover everything from samurais to romans and even if the lists were balanced, its hard to make everyone feel like they're fighting the way they actually fought (I hear that this is one of the issues of FoGR).

Personally I ran a ton of ashigaru so no hatred on my end but I got the Samurai lecture at adepticon. It really was disapointing that they didn't come out with Divine Wind but that's the way it goes in the end. As far as samurai go it's a hard mini too tackle as personally I disdainthe foundry one, and the perry one is great but the swords bend all too easy and the designs are very old in their sculptin style.

3rd render, now its a samurai with yari and back banner. Tis ok I guess, nothing mind blowing

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview-part-3

Arms too long, legs too squat, head too big, armor all wrong. The sword is the only thing I like.

Looks like a mirrored version of the first rending with all its faults.

Aye kroot this one does not seem too be all that great.

I actually have most books written on the subject (around 70 on samurai armour and weaponry alone) and a pretty good understanding on both human physique and combat poses. IMHO: This samurai/ashigaru-line will be really good.
Some minor faults - but so has the other manufacturers.

The most important issue for WF will be on the ashigaru box(es) - as they will be bought in bulk and the minis need to be carefully designed in order to have them rank up nicely without looking unnatural.

Also, please remember that there were millions of samurai/ashigaru - and thus *many* different ways to equip and dress them...

kendoka wrote:Also, please remember that there were millions of samurai/ashigaru - and thus *many* different ways to equip and dress them...

While this is true, there is definitely a classical "archetype" of samurai armor design which is well documented. The ability to make all the variants in the world is fine, but if the core archetype isn't in the model, then they've kinda missed the point.

Sort of like how maybe one of the French knights at Agincourt might have had a duck on their heraldry and armor decorations, but that doesn't mean I should make a plastic box set of "Hundred Years' War French featuring nothing but Duck-knights.

JOHIRA wrote:

kendoka wrote:Also, please remember that there were millions of samurai/ashigaru - and thus *many* different ways to equip and dress them...

While this is true, there is definitely a classical "archetype" of samurai armor design which is well documented. The ability to make all the variants in the world is fine, but if the core archetype isn't in the model, then they've kinda missed the point.
Sort of like how maybe one of the French knights at Agincourt might have had a duck on their heraldry and armor decorations, but that doesn't mean I should make a plastic box set of "Hundred Years' War French featuring nothing but Duck-knights.

Obviously not - but WF is actually on the right track.
There is nothing in their first three samurai previews that stand out as being wrong or even remotely as "special" as your example.

I am not saying that I would have designed the minis exactly as they did - but I do not criticize based upon an extremely shallow understanding on what was true to the period (16th century) either.
Most critique (including your own regarding "western breast plate" and "folded hakama") is either plainly wrong or based upon an "archetype" from a different era.
For instance Sode (being a "arrow shield") was not as mandatory in the late 16th century as in earlier periods. Haidate (missing from the WF samurai 1-3) was often dismissed when not on horseback etc.

As the glory days of the Samurai spanned from, IMHO, around 1280 (Gempei) to 1600 (Sekigahara) tactics and equipment went through a lot of different eras - thus making it hard to produce miniatures that correspond to every wargamer's vision on how a samurai ought to be equipped. By, as WF did, selecting a late period there is room for many different types within the same units - as many samurai went to war in old gear.

Also bear in mind the fuzziness of illustrations - as there were few artists with the patience to draw 100.000 warriors the ones depicted were not always the typical soldier (not every man in a unit would wear sashimonon etc.).

WF are indeed doing "late samurai":
"... a complete range of plastic 16th Century Samurai models. The kits we have planned are Ashigaru (30-miniatures armed with either nagae yari, arquebus or yumi), Samurai Foot (armed with either yari, arquebus, yumi or katana), Samurai Cavalry (armed with either yari, yumi or katana) and, possibly, a Samurai Lord and his retinue (in fighting poses, probably on horseback)."

Out of curiousness, what "core archetype" is missing?

Box art. Looks like a cover to some sort of 90's video game

Wow, just... wow. I think I could have made better-looking box covers myself, with nothing but a handful of sharpies.

Yay, now you can have grunts

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-ashigaru-preview-1

"Suitable for 1/48th through 1/56th scale..."

Seriously?

In the world of miniature making, no one knows scale

... and noone knows that Ashigaru don't wear Samurai swords
Next box will be European medieval peasants in full plate mail and Hoplites with hellebards

Empchild wrote: As per the katana it was and still is one of the best swords ever made.

That's debatable, it's certainly one of the sharpest cutting weapons ever developed, but they are fragile. I'd take a Viking-forged blade over a katana any day of the week.

Kroothawk wrote:... and noone knows that Ashigaru don't wear Samurai swords
Next box will be European medieval peasants in full plate mail and Hoplites with hellebards

Dunno how truthful this is but some people on the forums mentioned this

Warriors of Medieval Japan by Stephen Turnbull states that Ashigaru carried swords. It also has several paintings and woodcuts depicting them doing so.

After Toyotomi Hideyoshi's Great Sword Hunt of 1588 when he permanently banned the carrying of *any* weapons by anyone other than the samurai, all Ashigaru became officially samurai (albeit of the bottom rung of the samurai pecking order). This came IIRC with the privilege of carrying the two swords emblematic of the rank of samurai. Now granted, the quality of swords carried by the Ashigaru were nowhere near as high as that of their samurai betters, being munitions-quality weapons designed to equip large numbers of newly-minted "samurai" who would now be permanent professional men-at-arms of their respective daimyo.

Kroothawk wrote:... and noone knows that Ashigaru don't wear Samurai swords

Yes they did. The relevant sword edicts took place at the end of the Sengoku period - at which point the non-disbanded ashigaru had transitioned into lower-ranking samurai anyway. Now, what would be odd is if everyone was armed with katana and wakazashi - for a start, katana and tanto would be the more common pairing - but individually there's nothing wrong with any figure's equipment so far (excepting the upside-down daisho on the first one). The sculpting though? Not so much. That teppo's just being waved about in front of the poor guy's face.

Edit: LOL. Got distracted for over an hour.

This is just an opinon but frankly compared to what this company is putting out http://www.bushido-thegame.com/ those samurai look pretty aweful.

Well duh, its wargames factory

Next you'll say hat miniatures looks terrible against perry

That dude's head is HUGE.

Major box art FAIL.

I don't realy care what packaging looks like. Ever...

insaniak wrote:"Suitable for 1/48th through 1/56th scale..."

Seriously?

Anyone with a clue knows those scales are well apart.

I not convinced by these at all, though some 28mm plastic samurai would be nice, I have a couple of lovely metal ones.

Do they have ashi-garu renders up? whats with the thread title if not?

Page 3, near bottom

Ah, cool looking render.

Ashigaru: Really good render - with better embossed detail than the samurai ones.
By far the best mini so far in this range.

As I understand it the "belt detail" (bullet pouch, swords etc.) will be separate on the sprue so no need to glue the daisho on - especially as they in that position would make it impossible to draw/fire a bow (I trust all Ashigaru bodies will be possible to assemble holding bow, musket or spear).

Nitpicking: A wider leg stance would look better - and the rear elbow is to high, firing the Teppo this way would dislocate his shoulder due to the recoil...
Better example:



Sign me up for 10-20 boxes of Ashigaru
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Suggested contents of an Ashigaru box of 10:
BODIES: 2 walking bodies, 2 running bodies (left shoulder front), 2 kneeling bodies (right knee to ground), 1 standing body (relaxed, chest front), 3 standing bodies (legs wide, left shoulder front).
HEADS: 10 heads with jingasa helmet, 5 heads with head band, 5 heads with other type of helmet.
MUSKETS: 1 arms with musket resting on shoulder (guard, march), 1 arms with musket at hip level (walking, running), 1 arms with musket reloading, 2 arms with musket firing.
SPEARS: 2 arms with spear resting on shoulder (marching), 2 arms with spear resting on ground (at ease, guard), 2 arms with spear tip raised (walking, running, etc.), 4 arms with spear trusting, left hand front.
BOWS: 2 arms with bow firing, 2 arms with bow reloading, 1 arms with bow at ease.
MISC: 10 small sashimono flags, 1 larger banner resting on ground and held by arm, 1 cartridge box held by arms, 1 arrow box held by arms, 1 rice bale carried by arms, 2 wooden mantlets, 5 swords in belt, 10 bullet pouches.

Omegus wrote:

Empchild wrote: As per the katana it was and still is one of the best swords ever made.

That's debatable, it's certainly one of the sharpest cutting weapons ever developed, but they are fragile. I'd take a Viking-forged blade over a katana any day of the week.

Not what I've heard, the foldng of brittle hard steel with layers of soft more mallible steel made Katanas both sharp and flexible.

Of course I read this in GI Joe comics...

kendoka wrote:Nitpicking: A wider leg stance would look better - and the rear elbow is to high, firing the Teppo this way would dislocate his shoulder due to the recoil...

The rear elbow needs to be higher. Someone in the WFG forums has rather helpfully posted pictures of arquebusiers (and one musketeer) that show how wrong WGF got it...and rather amusingly used said pictures to argue for the accuracy of the current sculpts. The stance needs to be widened, the rear elbow raised, the rear hand moved in and forward, the head tilted, and the fore elbow dropped. As it stands he's not even sighting down the barrel! If I was feeling charitable I could dismiss the pose as the immediate relaxation post-firing...but a whole army like that? Other than the sloppy rear elbow, your blue ashigaru is worlds apart.

Construct wrote:

kendoka wrote:Nitpicking: A wider leg stance would look better - and the rear elbow is to high, firing the Teppo this way would dislocate his shoulder due to the recoil...

The rear elbow needs to be higher. ... The stance needs to be widened, the rear elbow raised, the rear hand moved in and forward, the head tilted, and the fore elbow dropped.

You might be right.
I guess the chosen position of the rear elbow mostly depend on the curvature of the gun handle - but at least the elbow needs to be in a more forward position (up, down or to the side - bringing the rear hand forward) in order to absorb recoil.
The front elbow, as you pointed out, needs to be lowered/centered - as when trying to stabilise a modern firearm. The head will probably be separate (i.e. easily tilted).

Actually the rear arm looks more as if drawing a bow (I own two kyudo bows) - although drawing a bow wearing a jingasa helmet would be kinda hard...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Empchild wrote: As per the katana it was and still is one of the best swords ever made.

That's debatable, it's certainly one of the sharpest cutting weapons ever developed, but they are fragile. I'd take a Viking-forged blade over a katana any day of the week.

Not what I've heard, the foldng of brittle hard steel with layers of soft more mallible steel made Katanas both sharp and flexible.

Of course I read this in GI Joe comics...

In real life, the reason why katanas were forged in such insanely labor-intensive ways was that Japanese iron was of dismal quality compared to that found in other regions of the world. They had to beat the living crap out of it just to make useful weapons. The mystique around this is vastly overblown in a form of Orientalism that elevates everything Japanese into an artform.

Methinks we're getting a bit off topic. Perhaps discussing the "magical" properties of katanas would be better off in the off topic forum or something

kendoka wrote:I guess the chosen position of the rear elbow mostly depend on the curvature of the gun handle

I don't believe it would. I've admittedly never even held an arquebus before but playing around with a hanbo as a stand-in I found that keeping the elbow as high as possible constrains the movement of the hand to forward and back, increasing stability in aiming and giving the impression there would be more control in recoil. I can only imagine how much more pronounced this effect would be should I be tired and weilding something as heavy as a real teppo.

Actually the rear arm looks more as if drawing a bow

It does, doesn't it?

Construct wrote:

Actually the rear arm looks more as if drawing a bow

It does, doesn't it?

Probably since its going to be multi purpose, I assume anyways. WGF loves to have open hand arms/etc

How look, now we have bows

*looks at the top of the arrow bundle*



http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-ashigaru-preview-2

kenshin620 wrote:How look, now we have bows

*looks at the top of the arrow bundle*



http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-ashigaru-preview-2

I'm with you on this. The fletching looks like absolute gak. The top looks really hastily put together.

So that's what, a 3 inch wide bow?

At least he's not wearing a giant bendy straw for armor like the last one.

Good lord. Did he steal the leaf-spring from Uncle Bubba's pickup? That stance does *not* work for archery (though fortunately the converse isn't true, so these guys can indeed share a body with their noisier brethren). Oh, and that's an ammunition-carrier's quiver he's wearing.


Still, not bad for a group of sculptors who I'm realising are in fact betentacled space-abominations beyond the ken of Man, working only from blurry photographs and memories of probings past.


Edit:

JOHIRA wrote:At least he's not wearing a giant bendy straw for armor like the last one.

Bendy straw is real armour.

Telephone-pole ashigaru are up: http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-ashigaru-3

Pole arms are usually way over scale in plastic and metal 28mm models because they would be too fragile if done to proper scale.

Historical wargamers often replace such items with piano wire or similar.

Bah, I hate the current WGF plastic pikes. As you mentioned they're very fragile

Lucky for me, Perry makes some good metal Nagae-Yari

Great...I guess this means we cant have short yari ashigaru? Gonna have to chop up the things manually

kenshin620 wrote:Bah, I hate the current WGF plastic pikes. As you mentioned they're very fragile

Lucky for me, Perry makes some good metal Nagae-Yari

Great...I guess this means we cant have short yari ashigaru? Gonna have to chop up the things manually

The perry ones are pretty fragile too honestly, is you are up for the work get some copper ones from northstar or foundry etc and just do a little sanding. All in all these ashigaru are horrible which annoys me because you need them in the masses because they formed the main blocks in major battles. So far it seems the perrys still have the best, also if anyone wants some great pic refrenses of samurai from different centurys look at shogun total war 2.

Construct wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:At least he's not wearing a giant bendy straw for armor like the last one.

Bendy straw is real armour.

Well, yeah, but on the real stuff the ridges look like they'd stick out at most a few millimeters. On the mini it looks like they stick out a few inches. I think in my elementary school music room we had some percussive instruments that you rubbed with sticks that resemble his armor. He could tuck his spare pens into the ridges so after the battle he's ready to write a haiku. I'm not criticizing the design, I'm criticizing the execution.

Empchild wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Bah, I hate the current WGF plastic pikes. As you mentioned they're very fragile

Lucky for me, Perry makes some good metal Nagae-Yari

Great...I guess this means we cant have short yari ashigaru? Gonna have to chop up the things manually

The perry ones are pretty fragile too honestly, is you are up for the work get some copper ones from northstar or foundry etc and just do a little sanding. All in all these ashigaru are horrible which annoys me because you need them in the masses because they formed the main blocks in major battles. So far it seems the perrys still have the best, also if anyone wants some great pic refrenses of samurai from different centurys look at shogun total war 2.

Why exactly are they horrible?

lord marcus wrote:
Why exactly are they horrible?

Hmm if I were to make some guesses, historical inaccuracy, low quality, awkward poses, disproportioned parts

The usual for wgf sets

Oh and a tidbit of news, samurais are done apparently, funny how so many companies love not taking any pics of their sprues/models

We plan to release the first Rising Sun set this month (October 2011) if all goes well.

The Samurai figures and box art are completed, we are currently awaiting packaging. The release date will depend on the product clearing customs. If it clears without issue we should see a mid-October release; if there is a hold up, late October/early November. The Ashigaru figures will go into production soon as well.

Oh btw I decided to ask TMP about the telephone yaris. They actually say this isnt too far off. They still look thick too me though

My shortstaff (not quite a rokushaku-bo, it's only 5'8" tall) is big enough in diameter that I can just barely touch my thumb to my middle finger, and I have big hands. Remember, we're talking about shafts that you don't want to bend easily (the better to kill you with), not flexible shafts like you see in a modern kung-fu movie (the better to NOT kill you with).

Yep. Lion's on the money about the shaft. They are thicker and heavier than you might expect.

lord marcus wrote:


Why exactly are they horrible?

Kenshin did a good job discribing it, but here is also a problem with WGF. Often there renders are ten times better then the final result. I hope this won't be the case but I have yet to see different.

JOHIRA wrote:Well, yeah, but on the real stuff the ridges look like they'd stick out at most a few millimeters. On the mini it looks like they stick out a few inches. I think in my elementary school music room we had some percussive instruments that you rubbed with sticks that resemble his armor. He could tuck his spare pens into the ridges so after the battle he's ready to write a haiku. I'm not criticizing the design, I'm criticizing the execution.

Ah, conceded. I didn't realise it was so over-exaggerated on the ashigaru. It's strange because the samurai hit a nice balance between realism and visibility on its ridges.

kenshin620 wrote:Oh btw I decided to ask TMP about the telephone yaris. They actually say this isnt too far off. They still look thick too me though

My shortstaff (not quite a rokushaku-bo, it's only 5'8" tall) is big enough in diameter that I can just barely touch my thumb to my middle finger, and I have big hands. Remember, we're talking about shafts that you don't want to bend easily (the better to kill you with), not flexible shafts like you see in a modern kung-fu movie (the better to NOT kill you with).

Yep. Lion's on the money about the shaft. They are thicker and heavier than you might expect.

Bo, jo, hanbo etc are 1.25-1.5" diameter. Your TMP boys' claims that at least 2" diameter is proper reveal them to be a pair of mall ninjas who raided the hardware store for pine dowelling. And if there really were yari with 2.5" diameter shafts like the sculpt - and I'm not aware of even temple offerings with shafts that thick - isn't it funny that none of them have survived as antiques or appear in any illustrations?

Making the shafts as rediculously thick as they have does no one any favours: Were they realistically-proportioned but fragile, like the Perry pikemen, then those wanting sturdier weapons could replace the shafts with brass rod. Were they slightly-oversize, like with the yari samurai, then those wanting better-scaled weapons could replace the shafts with brass rod. But with the super-oversize shaft on the yari ashigaru you get a super-oversized grip and a super-oversized spearhead, so they look ugly no matter what you do.

Sorry, but you are WAY to harsh on these previews.
Sure there are some flaws (of which I have pointed out quite a few) - but the overall feel is, IMHO, actually up to par with Perry (which have one of the top five best Samurai ranges available).

Here is a page I published several years ago:
http://hem.spray.se/kendoka/samurai/ashigaru.htm

Taking some of WF previous releases into account, this line MIGHT well end up rubbish - but IF they manage to produce affordable plastic miniatures at the quality shown in the previews (with crisp, easily painted detail etc.) it will be a Smash Hit - and I'll buy a few hundred to boost my armies


FYI:
I have 20 years of experience (somewhere between 5-10.000 hours in the dojo) practicing mainly kendo
but also iaido, jodo, naginata, tameshigiri and kyudo (but neither yari nor teppo).
I own katanas, kyudo bows and several naginata (both new and from mid 1400),
have been collecting samurai miniatures since 1995 - and books on the subject for even longer.
Also I believe I have a rather good understanding on both sculpting and the human anatomy.
In total, I would claim that I should be rather capable to judge these previews.

Hmm this is quite odd. Nowhere on their official site do they show their updated ashigaru box set. Yet they do on warstore. Looks like they split into two boxes of 25 each instead of one with 30. One is for melee and the other is for ranged. Still dont like the 3D colored art. Also I dont know whats up with the "mirror" box style. Wouldn't it be better to have all the text in similar spots?

Most interesting it would be to see why they made the split.

lord marcus wrote:Most interesting it would be to see why they made the split.

My theory is probably they could not fit in all the sprues to have a completely homogeneous unit of either type in one set

Theres finally some actual models now. Its typical WGF details. Not sure on how accurate some of those poses are






More http://wargamesfactory.com/announcements/assembled-samurai

After seeing the actual models I have to stand by my first assessment and say these are just not good. The poses just feel off to me and seem unatural at best, also it has been my experience that WGF models faces are often flat when it comes too paint time. They look good in pictures but when you go to paint the models often they are devoid of a lot of true detail. I was hoping to like these but saddly I personally think I won't carry then.

Need to see some stood up in a row for a comparison shot with other companies.

These would be OK if there were no other ones out there for use, but how many historical samuries are we seeing out there? None to many, if any. Most of them have some demons and moster stuff attached to thier ranges, leading to these guys as filler models for the other games.

The poses are incredibly stiff.

And this guy's leg is magically protruding through his armour...

insaniak wrote:The poses are incredibly stiff.

And this guy's leg is magically protruding through his armour...

Oh my god, it's like a bad suit of armor in Oblivion.

Sprue shot is out now for those interested. Looks like there are a lot of fragile, finnicky parts

lord marcus wrote:Most interesting it would be to see why they made the split.

I think it's a pretty clear example of why give folks two options when you can sell two kits. I don't hold that against them, as it's still a good deal per fig, but I don't doubt that's why they made the change.

insaniak wrote:The poses are incredibly stiff.

And this guy's leg is magically protruding through his armour...

That is truely terrible. What kind of quality control in in place when that kind of a flaw gets though!

kenshin620 wrote:Theres finally some actual models now. Its typical WGF details. Not sure on how accurate some of those poses are

Guy on the right has the same bad pants, in reverse. What the heck is going on over at WGF?

kenshin620 wrote:Sprue shot is out now for those interested. Looks like there are a lot of fragile, finnicky parts

True, but that was going to be the case no matter what when dealing with soldiers with these kinds of weapons and decorative elements. Looks like it's broken up nicely for those who want to kitbash.

Overall, I am very unimpressed. Some of the details are nice and they give you alot of options in the kit, but these seem like a step down from the vikings which -while simpler and with some small shortcomings- didn't have the stiff poses and unforgivable leg/armor flaws of these figs.

Again, WGF proves that they're either incapable or unwilling to have sharp-cornered details on their miniatures. It's like all their parts inexplicably were tossed into a tumbler.

Still not a awful batch of bits, but the lack of sharp details really limits how many bits I can use before the model becomes sub-par.

That leg clipping through the armor is just inexcusable. That alone kills my faith that WGF cares about their product.

Isnt WGF a Chinese company now? Who else makes plastic Samurai?

Apparently, their "justification". Still not good enough for me though

Regarding the legs in question, please refer to Samurai rotating image #1 on our web site (http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview). The Samurai’s leg comes out between the two sections of the thigh armor (Kusazuri). When fighting on foot most Samurai did not wear (Haidate). The legs were done in two separate pieces to achieve maximum detail. The line where the two leg pieces glue together may be causing this confusion.

Maximum being subjective

kenshin620 wrote:The legs were done in two separate pieces to achieve maximum detail.

Well, that was a fail...

On closer inspection, it actually appears that the leg isn't protruding through the armour... The joint where the two leg halves meet up makes it look like the full plate finishes in the middle of his body, and then the next plate starts and has the leg sticking through it. Looking at the original render, what is actually happening is that the joint is running through the plate. What appears to be a second plate is the rest of the first one, and the edge of that plate is pushing up against the leg... but because of the soft detailing, that edge isn't real clear. So one plate pushing against a leg, with a joint running up it becomes two plates, one of which appears to run behind the leg.

SO not a total fail of sculpting, just a side-effect of soft detail on the final model.

So ultimately still not really acceptable.

I don't buy thier explaination, unless there's historical precedence for having a split in the protective over-tunic-armor piece (whatever it's called) over one leg and not the other.

Not buying it either. There does not appear to be an edge that is resting against the outstretched leg. Take a look at the second picture. The leg also appears to be going through the armor, and the mould line is nowhere near it. The "gap between components" explanation sounds like crap to me. Also, why don't they just post another angle? That would solve the problem.

Nice Samurai. Very realistic.

Guildsman wrote:Not buying it either. There does not appear to be an edge that is resting against the outstretched leg.

It is there in the render. The cast just blunts the edge so it merges into the leg.

Also, why don't they just post another angle?

Why bother? Whatever angle you show them from, they're still going to be stiff and awkward, with soft details and an indeterminate scale...

I received my order of 7 boxes of samurai & 1 free sprue (for a total of 180 minis!) and I must say I am pleased. The renders & 3-ups do not do the actual 28mm mini justice. They seem to have more detail, there is no leg going through armor, and the bits options are abundant!

I'd recommend at least a box or two for those wanting to convert a Warhammer army into either Nippon or a samurai styled army. Even Space Marines!

I've gamed & modeled for many years (decades) and with the right skill & some conversion work these can look really really good.

At least they are cheap and will fill ranks quick for large armies!

I'll post painted pics soon!

krazynadechukr wrote:I received my order of 7 boxes of samurai & 1 free sprue (for a total of 180 minis!) and I must say I am pleased. The renders & 3-ups do not do the actual 28mm mini justice. They seem to have more detail, there is no leg going through armor, and the bits options are abundant!

I'd recommend at least a box or two for those wanting to convert a Warhammer army into either Nippon or a samurai styled army. Even Space Marines!

I've gamed & modeled for many years (decades) and with the right skill & some conversion work these can look really really good.

At least they are cheap and will fill ranks quick for large armies!

I'll post painted pics soon!

I'll be looking forward to seeing pictures of models people have built, painted or not, so please do post.

I kinda like the idea. move some bits around and you can make chosen and cultists.... But I really need to see the final models first.

krazynadechukr wrote:
At least they are cheap and will fill ranks quick for large armies!

I'll post painted pics soon!

I'd be equally interested in unpainted pics. If you're willing to post some of those also, it'd be much appreciated.

Personally I like the artwork. Tell me though, did the Ashigaru make a habit of only recruiting people with incredibly large heads? Or do they just have very small bodies?

H.B.M.C. wrote:... did the Ashigaru make a habit of only recruiting people with incredibly large heads? Or do they just have very small bodies?

After seeing antique japanese armour IRL I would think the latter is true...

... but I think Dixon Miniatures is betting on the "large heads" idea:
http://hem.spray.se/kendoka/samurai/ashigaru.htm

I got some WGF Hoplites and a Persian sprue from The War Store during their Black Friday sale. Very nice looking and affordable. People are complaining about the low-budget art on WGF boxes? Perhaps they'd like to pay more for the whole box of models to have that improved. The only thing that counts is how good are the models. The WGF Shock Troops, Hoplites, etc. cost a fraction of what plastic minis cost from many other companies, I have no complaints.

Well ashigaru are out, two flavors of bowmen/gunners (they say archibus???), and long yari (huge banner is HUGE, why you take so much space , also you better look elsewhere if you want other weapons)





And BoW has a review of their samurai. Keep in mind this is BoW


http://www.beastsofwar.com/historical-battles/ancient-battles/wargames-factor-samurai-unboxed/

Checked the review yesterday at BOW and I must say there's some nice bits in there.

I am rather impressed.
While there are some goofy details/poses (as the very strange left arm on the first mini in the BOW video) the overall impression is: job well done!

I have placed orders for 30 samurai and 150 ashigaru.
Hopefully they wil inspire me to finish my massive Samurai army.

Looking over WGF and Perry's stuff makes me want to make a Japanese themed Empire army. Anyone know where I can find a good japanese dragon and some spirits (steam tank and warmachines).

Surtur wrote:Looking over WGF and Perry's stuff makes me want to make a Japanese themed Empire army. Anyone know where I can find a good japanese dragon and some spirits (steam tank and warmachines).

Clan War has a few dragons, a bit pricey though

http://www.veltd.net/28mmunaligned.htm

Bushido has some spirits like oni, not sure if they're what you're looking for

http://www.bushido-thegame.com/catalog

I think Malifaux has some japanese-esque ghosts too

Yes! Those are amazing. Those dragons look awesome. And Bushido has some interesting things to stand for warmachines (oni with the buddha head is my mortar)

kenshin620 wrote:huge banner is HUGE, why you take so much space ,

*looks at empty space below huge banner*
Y U NO INCLUDE TANTO?!?

And BoW has a review of their samurai. Keep in mind this is BoW

Where's the rosetint orkmoticon?
*rummage* *rummage*


'Best release of the year' was taking the piss but BoW's boosterism *is* rather refreshing. Even when they're doing something like rip into the Tau codex it's all warm and happy and relaxed.
And quite probably medicated.


They don't look so bad in those shots, their flaws aren't nearly as apparent as in the CAD shots. And even Darrell was able to assemble them with all the arms and legs in the right places and unbroken so they can't be as fiddly or fragile as might have been feared.
Plus, the engineer in me wants to play with the stackable sprues.


Edit: Surtur, if you're looking for a centrepiece general or wizard as well there's Studio McVey's Azumi: http://studiomcvey.highwire.com/product/smm21-azumi

That is a very pretty model and a very pretty paint job. I'm probably gonna use one of Perry's Diamyo as my general, though she could definitely fit as a wizard of some lore.

It is sad that I can't use ninjas as empire has no assassins.

Surtur wrote:

It is sad that I can't use ninjas as empire has no assassins.

Lore of Shadow/Death wizard?

Actually for a death wizard I'd probably try to make a Shinigami ala Bleach. :3 Shadow could work though.

I have received my 30 samurai.

Positive impressions:
They Wargames Factory samurai are really nice and work well in scale with Perry Miniatures.
The "sculpting" is more realistic than what you normally find on 28 mm miniatures, i.e. the hands, heads and weapons are not exaggerated. This is both good and bad.
Good surface detail = easy to paint.
Crisp detail (not soft like cheap plastic).
Many parts that can be put together in millions of combos = no miniatures will ever be identical.

Some negative impressions:
- rather dull faces
- the arms have different armour, making it harder to mix bits
- the legs have different armour, making it harder to mix bits
- one totally mis-sculpted arm
- weak weapons (due to realistic thickness)
- too few helm ornaments
- very fiddly to put together, each figure is in at least 8 parts (often more).
Most annoying is that the arm positions are very "stiff" with hands positioned like action figures, in order to get realistic weapon positioning one has to bend and twist wrists/joints a lot which is extra time consuming. I have 150 ashigaru on the way. Those will probably take forever to assemble.

Overall I am very happy with my purchase - Wargames Factory did deliver way more what I was expecting.
Biggest flaw is that gluing the multipart minis together takes way too much of ones patience and time - which could be better spent in the painting stage.
Plastic miniatures are so easy to convert that I would have preferred much fewer variations in pose.

Some images of my first batch (Obu Toramasa and ten samurai):

Did they happen to fix the whole leg going through thigh protector issue?

Nice models BTW

lord marcus wrote:Did they happen to fix the whole leg going through thigh protector issue?

There are a few loose spare armor plates that you can put on top of the strange looking thighs.

oh, well that clears up the one problem i had before ordering. thanks!

what do you all think of the ashi-garu now that they have been released?

I bought a box of the samurai. Got an extra sprue for some reason. I decided to convert my samurai into skellurai, and thought I would show the results.

The extra sprue (25+5) was a bonus to those who ordered the (100?) first Samurai boxes.

Like your "skellurai", please post pics of painted ones.

Will do. Gonna speed paint him tommorow. Unfortunatly i am probably going to have to hollow out the helms, unless i can fluff something up that the "faces" are deathmasks.