Have there ever, in the 40k universe, been guard units eqiupped with power armor, ah la the Sisters of Battle? Obviously inquisitors and henchmen get their hands on the stuff, as do the sisters themselves, but is there precedent for a special tactics unit - maybe Stormtroopers - being geared out with the stuff for a mission?
Maybe mega high up people like Creed could get it,but I don't think an average Joe could get outfitted.Inquisitors are a different breed entirely.If they want PA,they get PA.There isn't even they question of "What if I don't?".He will get Pa.
Deadshot wrote:Maybe mega high up people like Creed could get it,but I don't think an average Joe could get outfitted.Inquisitors are a different breed entirely.If they want PA,they get PA.There isn't even they question of "What if I don't?".He will get Pa.
SoB use it all the time and i'm pretty sure Creed outranks them.
wonkobaggins wrote:I wonder if a guard unit that uncovered a cache of the stuff and started using it would be deemed heretical and purged.
No. The guardsmen likely wouldn't be able to use it, if they could then once they reported in they would have the armour taken off of them.
purplefood wrote:SoB use it all the time and i'm pretty sure Creed outranks them.
Creed outranks Sisters like Creed outranks Astartes or Skitarii. They're outside of Creed's command structure-- the most that Creed can do to the three organizations is ask them to play along with his plans.
Sisters aren't a part of the Guard. Creed, like any other Imperial Guard officer, does not have the authority to order them around.
Deadshot wrote:If the disobey,then they get shot.The officer willingly sacrifices all his soldiers to win the war.
Not every officer is Chenkov. But if a Lord General has to sacrifice regiments to bring the war to a swift end-- he will. Whether or not he likes it is a different matter, personal feelings cannot get in the way of one's goals.
Victory over the enemy is his goal. The Lord (or Lady) General will do what it takes.
Deadshot wrote:The officer willingly sacrifices all his soldiers to win the war.
Like everyone else ( hence even US army... ). But most Guardsman just hold the line to allow civilian population to flee and seek shelter.
To me, giving my life to protect others - there can be no grater sacrifice. If you can't do that they you have no honor and you are good only for bullet in the head.
Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
The Guard have quite a bit more strategy than you give them credit for, Deadshot. If you wanted to get into a "who's better" competition, then the Marines would have a lot of black marks against them that wouldn't apply to the Guard. It's all a personal preference issue.
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
The spacemarine method only works because is is used by spacemarines.
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
The spacemarine method only works because is is used by spacemarines.
In the Eldar's defence, in most cases they are able to spring easy victories by attacking in areas lacking major resistance, therefore most standard 40k matches involving Eldar imply that a farseer screwed up or something. And even then their no pushover, or at least they shouldn't be...
purplefood wrote:SoB use it all the time and i'm pretty sure Creed outranks them.
Creed outranks Sisters like Creed outranks Astartes or Skitarii. They're outside of Creed's command structure-- the most that Creed can do to the three organizations is ask them to play along with his plans.
Sisters aren't a part of the Guard. Creed, like any other Imperial Guard officer, does not have the authority to order them around.
He might not have authority written down on a piece of paper but very few individuals will refuse to obey an order given by him...
Guard don't get armor because it's impractical to give the 100,000,000,000,000+ guardsman fancy shmancy power armor. The Imperium doesn't have the resources necessary for such a thing, if they did, it would have been done.
purplefood wrote:He might not have authority written down on a piece of paper but very few individuals will refuse to obey an order given by him...
It would be framed as a request, not an order. Creed isn't a bumbling idiot (despite being management - who knew?). Assuming the request wasn't too radical, I would expect Cadia's Ecclesiarchy to accede with good grace - and where the Adeptus Ministorum points, the Sisters of Battle follow in the name of Him On Earth. But it's all hypotheticals.
On the topic at hand, I think an argument could be made that if a world was both Imperial-level hi-tech (or littered with caches of DA technology), and feudal in government, it might potentially raise a company of Power Armoured soldiers within a fresh-founded regiment. But the costs involved would mean it would have to be the vanity project of the Planetary Governor. In mechanical terms, the only way I can think to represent it would be in an Apocalypse setting, to field a force that's predominantly Imperial Guard, with a suitably impressive IG model to counts-as Coteaz from C:GK, and 6 squads of power-armoured Acolytes representing the power-armour guardsmen. But the power-armour guardsmen themselves would be a massive conversion project, and a pretty cool one at that.
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
When there is a better way they take it, but every good commander will sacrifice 1 billion lives to save 2 billion. Even if you save only one more than you lost I would consider it acceptable losses.
Deadshot wrote:Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?
A billion people is a small price to pay for the Imperium.
Yeah, when every planet have few billion citizens, and Imperum have million of worlds...
I mean, just look at both Earth WW's - there were massive casualties there, why would Warhammer have less?
For them, billions of losses is nothing, it's something for us with only around 7 billion people.
In that kind of structure there can be no individual - only one whole, and that is the most grimdark to me at least.
"Madam, I am sorry for your loss. But the fact that Cadia still stand and also those 1000+ planets behind, with countless billions of people, is prove that your husband sacrifice was not in vain."
As far as the ethical question that seems to have emerged in the thread, I imagine the IG commanders handle casualties the same way our military does. Every commander at every level works to accomplish the mission while minimizing casualties at their level, from platoon to regiment to planetary governor.
As far as the power armored IG bit, the reason I'm asking the question, is because I'm planning on adding a power armored contingent to my Catachan forces. I'm planning on using the rules for the SoB, because they have the stats of elite guardsmen, the flamer heavy weapon selections, and power armor. Other than the acts of faith bit (I'll need to work around that), they should be pretty spot on. The conversions will be fun, but since GWSM models aren't true scale anyway, the base models should be about the right size. In apocalypse games I can even stick them in Valkyries, which would be the balls.
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.
When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.
You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.
In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.
purplefood wrote:SoB use it all the time and i'm pretty sure Creed outranks them.
Creed outranks Sisters like Creed outranks Astartes or Skitarii. They're outside of Creed's command structure-- the most that Creed can do to the three organizations is ask them to play along with his plans.
Sisters aren't a part of the Guard. Creed, like any other Imperial Guard officer, does not have the authority to order them around.
He might not have authority written down on a piece of paper but very few individuals will refuse to obey an order given by him...
And those few individuals are, you guessed it, Mechanicus, Sororitas, and Astartes.
Whom he has neither authority on paper nor authority in reality to order to do anything. He ASKS them to do it, and then they say in response "hey, you're a great strategist, so sure, I'll play along!"
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.
When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.
You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.
In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.
You trade ground for lives,and extract them when you can.You can't get to them,then you leave them to take the toll on the enemy,so they have not been sacrifised randomly.Then you Exterminatus the Planet.That is what Kryptman did.
Happygrunt wrote:Wait, I am confused. Are we taking one man's actions and saying that the entire imperial army acts exactly like that one man?
Most of the Guard act like this. They are all trained to serve and protect, and most of them will die to protect Imperial citizens. Just look at Pius, he give his life to allow Emperor to kill Horus. Most Guardsman think of him as a saint and they are gladly making the same sacrifice on the battlefields of the 41'st millennium.
And of course entire Imperial Guard don't act like 1 man. It depends on the commander and homeworld.
Most of the Guard act like this. They are all trained to serve and protect, and most of them will die to protect Imperial citizens. Just look at Pius, he give his life to allow Emperor to kill Horus. Most Guardsman think of him as a saint and they are gladly making the same sacrifice on the battlefields of the 41'st millennium.
Well I can assure you my guardsmen don't act like this! They break and run with the best of them every game they're invovled in. I'm starting to get the impression that they adhere rather to the adage that you don't have to outrun the bear (tyranid), you just have to out run the guy next to you. Of course, they mask this under the more popular adage that discretion is the better part of valour.
@Deadshot - Imperial commanders are intelligent and do care about preserving the lives of the men they lead. For every leader like Chenkov, their are 10 more with imagination and a tactical mind-people like Al'Rahem and Creed (but obviously not as good as Creed). The problem is, often massive sacrifice is required to save a planet or system. Imperial Generals being incompetent is as untrue as Imperial Guardsmen themeselves being incompetent.
TrollPie wrote:@Deadshot - Imperial commanders are intelligent and do care about preserving the lives of the men they lead. For every leader like Chenkov, their are 10 more with imagination and a tactical mind-people like Al'Rahem and Creed (but obviously not as good as Creed). The problem is, often massive sacrifice is required to save a planet or system. Imperial Generals being incompetent is as untrue as Imperial Guardsmen themeselves being incompetent.
Chenkov's approach might even be rational under some situations. Yes, most modern militaries try to minimize losses but the Imperial army isn't a modern military. Life is ultimately cheap in the Guard, after all you can always recruit more hivescum if you run out of men, and training varies.
What is requied of all guard commanders is victory. If Chenkov can provide the desired victory with his methods ( by actually making his human wave attacks work, perhaps trough extreme discipline, good support or just plain numbers ) then he does his job. If he just sends his men into the grinder without actualy achieving something meaningful ( life might be cheap, but equipment and the logistical effort to ferry an army from A to B aren't ) then a comissar will deal with him.
TrollPie wrote:Imperial commanders are intelligent and do care about preserving the lives of the men they lead. For every leader like Chenkov, their are 10 more with imagination and a tactical mind-people like Al'Rahem and Creed (but obviously not as good as Creed). The problem is, often massive sacrifice is required to save a planet or system. Imperial Generals being incompetent is as untrue as Imperial Guardsmen themeselves being incompetent.
I'm not sure if I could agree. Imperial commanders are drawn predominantly from the ranks of the nobility - which is a result of the way how IG regiments are raised, which is by taking some PDF as tithe and saying "good job guys, you're Guard now, go board this transport and fly to warzone XYZ". Exceptions such as the surprisingly equal society of Cadia aside, PDF formations would most likely be led by the resident nobility, just like how it worked here on our Earth in the last couple millennia. Leaders are selected not based on tactical genius but bloodline, and their very upbringing is most likely the cause of why they'd pay comparatively little value to human life, seeing it as a resource to be spent to achieve the Imperium's goals ... and a good deal of glory for themselves, their House and their planet. Grimdark.
The above is also the reason for why it makes little sense to raise regiments with power armour. If some noble truly has enough resources to outfit thousands of PDF with such high technology, the Munitorum would obviously prioritize this very formation when the next tithe is due.
"Thanks for giving us 5.000 men with power armour the worth of 25% of your military budget, Governor. I'm sure they will perform admirably in the war for Armageddon."
Yeah ... no.
Perhaps it could work for an IG-internal special projects formation, similar to the 10.000-men-Stormtrooper-Regiment who all get advanced equipment, or the Elysian Drop Troops who have their own fliers outside Naval hierarchy. Somewhat reaching, but not impossible.
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.
When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.
You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.
In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.
You trade ground for lives,and extract them when you can.You can't get to them,then you leave them to take the toll on the enemy,so they have not been sacrifised randomly.Then you Exterminatus the Planet.That is what Kryptman did.
I don't think you understand the guard, my friend.
The Imperial Guard are a highly trained, disciplined and professional military force who are equipped to a very high standard, equally Imperial commanders are well versed in the art of war. When an Imperial army invades or defends a world they will try and bring it to a swift conclusion with the use of drop regiments, aerial bombardment, blitzkrieg assaults and crippling storm trooper special operations. Usually this will be enough against most foes they will face, with a war ending within weeks. However when fighting an enemy that is tenacious, difficult to pin down or occupy strong defensive positions (Orks, Eldar or any race dug in) then the guard lose their momentum.
Even then the Guard loath to dig in, especially when they have other options open to them. At this point they will move to protracted manoeuvre warfare with mechanized and armoured units, with highly mobile drop troops taking vital positions, striking where the enemy is weak and storm troops continuing with ops to further destabilise and wrong foot the enemy. If the Navy have air superiority then airstrikes will attack supply convoys and artillery soften up occupied positions ready for occupation.
If they still can't break the back of the enemy or the enemy has a distinct advantage then, and only then, will the guard dig in but it is really seen as a last resort unless the army truly specialise in this field. This is when a war of attrition begins and the guard tries to bleed the enemy dry by dying slower than their foe. This type of warfare is almost inevitable against Tyranids and Orks.
It may shock some but the majority of Imperial commanders actually care a good degree about the lives of the men and women under their command, balancing between acceptable expenditure of manpower and the importance of the objective, human wave attacks are greatly frowned upon by any general worth his salt.
This is simple economics, although the Guard have almost unlimited manpower and resources, that manpower isn't all in one place and commanders have a finite amount of resources at his disposal without any reinforcement for years at a time, human wave attacks are a very quick way of getting all your men killed and losing a war.
Infantry will never fight without armour support or air cover from the Navy, each regiment working together to create a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, that is how the Guard win their wars.
The Imperial Guard is as highly trained as the Governor of the world the regiment was raised would allow. The few months of training aboard the troop ship that picked up the tithe are hardly worth bringing everyone up to speed. There is no "galactic IG boot camp" like the Schola Progenium, it all depends on how the troops were formed and trained on their homeworld. Which is why the various Regiments often sport vast differences in tactics.
Where does the idea of the officers' supposed care come from, anyways? Nobody in the command hierarchy of the Imperium gives a grox's gak on wave tactics as long as the Commander in question achieves the mission objective. It's why Chenkov is still in command. Because he is successful.
Imperial officers get into trouble as soon as they start failing to achieve their assigned goals. At this point it is also completely unimportant on whether said officer has thrown too many or too few troops into the grinder - either will be held against him and seen as the cause of his failure.
Personally, I just don't see why some noble scion whose command basically fell into his lap should feel any kind of connection to his troops. Your average commander didn't feel it in medieval Europe or during the Napoleonic Wars, so why should this have changed in 40k where a human life is worth even less?
Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.
Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.
When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.
You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.
In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.
You trade ground for lives,and extract them when you can.You can't get to them,then you leave them to take the toll on the enemy,so they have not been sacrifised randomly.Then you Exterminatus the Planet.That is what Kryptman did.
I don't think you understand the guard, my friend.
The Imperial Guard are a highly trained, disciplined and professional military force who are equipped to a very high standard, equally Imperial commanders are well versed in the art of war. When an Imperial army invades or defends a world they will try and bring it to a swift conclusion with the use of drop regiments, aerial bombardment, blitzkrieg assaults and crippling storm trooper special operations. Usually this will be enough against most foes they will face, with a war ending within weeks. However when fighting an enemy that is tenacious, difficult to pin down or occupy strong defensive positions (Orks, Eldar or any race dug in) then the guard lose their momentum.
Even then the Guard loath to dig in, especially when they have other options open to them. At this point they will move to protracted manoeuvre warfare with mechanized and armoured units, with highly mobile drop troops taking vital positions, striking where the enemy is weak and storm troops continuing with ops to further destabilise and wrong foot the enemy. If the Navy have air superiority then airstrikes will attack supply convoys and artillery soften up occupied positions ready for occupation.
If they still can't break the back of the enemy or the enemy has a distinct advantage then, and only then, will the guard dig in but it is really seen as a last resort unless the army truly specialise in this field. This is when a war of attrition begins and the guard tries to bleed the enemy dry by dying slower than their foe. This type of warfare is almost inevitable against Tyranids and Orks.
It may shock some but the majority of Imperial commanders actually care a good degree about the lives of the men and women under their command, balancing between acceptable expenditure of manpower and the importance of the objective, human wave attacks are greatly frowned upon by any general worth his salt.
This is simple economics, although the Guard have almost unlimited manpower and resources, that manpower isn't all in one place and commanders have a finite amount of resources at his disposal without any reinforcement for years at a time, human wave attacks are a very quick way of getting all your men killed and losing a war.
Infantry will never fight without armour support or air cover from the Navy, each regiment working together to create a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, that is how the Guard win their wars.
For some reason, I've heard this before. Something about IG recruitment where the best and brightest are carried away to fight as guardsmen and the rest act as PDFs. Like, your average guardsmen are actually really good soldiers equivalent of modern marines or something as opposed to GI's in the army.
Retribution wrote:Wasn't Napoleon practically loved by his troops?
Aye, he was very charismatic! He also rose through the ranks in a more "honest" manner in that he started out small as a Lieutenant and gradually worked his way up. In most militaries of various European nations, it was not uncommon to simply "buy" oneself a commission and even a command if you had the money. At least that's what I read about the British Army at that time.
I'm quite sure the Imperial Guard has several "Napoleons" in its ranks - but I'm just as certain that the majority consists of careless nobles who only think of their own reputation. It's just the kind of mindset that feudalism breeds - especially if you look how far 40k takes it (slavery etc).
Lynata wrote:The Imperial Guard is as highly trained as the Governor of the world the regiment was raised would allow. The few months of training aboard the troop ship that picked up the tithe are hardly worth bringing everyone up to speed. There is no "galactic IG boot camp" like the Schola Progenium, it all depends on how the troops were formed and trained on their homeworld. Which is why the various Regiments often sport vast differences in tactics.
Where does the idea of the officers' supposed care come from, anyways? Nobody in the command hierarchy of the Imperium gives a grox's gak on wave tactics as long as the Commander in question achieves the mission objective. It's why Chenkov is still in command. Because he is successful.
Imperial officers get into trouble as soon as they start failing to achieve their assigned goals. At this point it is also completely unimportant on whether said officer has thrown too many or too few troops into the grinder - either will be held against him and seen as the cause of his failure.
Personally, I just don't see why some noble scion whose command basically fell into his lap should feel any kind of connection to his troops. Your average commander didn't feel it in medieval Europe or during the Napoleonic Wars, so why should this have changed in 40k where a human life is worth even less?
Imperial Guard are recruited from the top 10% of any planets PDF, if the soldiers aren't of sufficient quality the governors life is forfeit. It is good for the governors health to have a proficient military force under his/her command, especially when his/her army must hold their own until reinforced by the Guard. Hive and industrial worlds where corporation and gang warfare is rampant are prime recruiting grounds, breeding vicious killers already well versed in combat. They are already good fighters before recruitment and their abilities are further honed by the guard on route to a warzone.
To put it into perspective, if the Imperium came here they will be taking all of earths special forces first (delta force, SEALS, SAS, Spetsnaz you name it) and work their way down until we meet our quota.
I believe my definition of "care" may be confusing. When I say care I don't mean they shed a tear for every life lost under his/her command or tuck the men into bed with a cup of hot chocolate , obviously they don't, I'm sure they would care about such things as morale and equipment etc as this affects his soldiers' performance. However as I said using your men intelligently is what they truly care about because they only have a finite amount of manpower at their disposal. You can't complete your objective if all your men are dead. Chenkov is a rather rare sort of commander, he is successful because he has a colossal amount of manpower under his command, a luxury very few officers of his rank have, over 120,000 men compared to your average 4 to 10,000.
Because any man/woman worth the title of general knows it's a bad idea to waste the lives of your men for very little gain, it's been like that throughout history, why should it be any different in 40k?
Retribution wrote:Wasn't Napoleon practically loved by his troops?
Aye, he was very charismatic! He also rose through the ranks in a more "honest" manner in that he started out small as a Lieutenant and gradually worked his way up. In most militaries of various European nations, it was not uncommon to simply "buy" oneself a commission and even a command if you had the money. At least that's what I read about the British Army at that time.
Buying a commission wasn't just uncommon, it was basically required (short of being given a field commission which was very rare). And Napoleon and Wellesley were certainly characters, Napoleon was adored by his troops.
I'm quite sure the Imperial Guard has several "Napoleons" in its ranks - but I'm just as certain that the majority consists of careless nobles who only think of their own reputation. It's just the kind of mindset that feudalism breeds - especially if you look how far 40k takes it (slavery etc).
Are reffering to servitors here? I wouldn't call them slaves.
I think comparing imperial guard to napoleon or "medieval commanders" (what does that even mean? mercenary captains, lords,k nights, Kings? Europe or Middle east? what time period? Italian towns? slavic tribes?) I thought it was pretty clear that most imperial guard fluff is based off of early 20th century russia. So why don't we go there?
specifically WW2
-High level generals were very skilled
-a mix of unbelievably brave men and abject cowards
-very little individual initiative (whole company ordered into a river when none could swim despite a bridge built for just that purpose)
-language barriar between eastern Europe and Asian russians
-horrible middle level leadership because of Stalin's purges
-General disregard for human life, viewed as just another resource (one general ran his men through a minefield he knew was there and when asked said he counted the men lost as if they had been shot or hit with artillery, they were all lost to enemy devices, the means was not important.)
-A varied amount of weapon technology and distribution due to previous war failure to prepar. (This one might not be as useful for warhammer)
-vast amount of resources, though poorly utilized
I would like to thank hardcore history for this lesson and if you guys are interested you should look it up, a great 6 hour lecture series
Yarrickshad wrote:Because any man/woman worth the title of general knows it's a bad idea to waste the lives of your men for very little gain, it's been like that throughout history, why should it be any different in 40k?
Two words grim dark. Grim dark is really code for silly, but it's also the coolest part about the GI. (Try it sometimes, replace the words grim dark with silly or joke. It fits quite well.) You take away the silly waste of lives the silly bad tactics, the silly bad equipment and what do you get.
Yarrickshad wrote:Because any man/woman worth the title of general knows it's a bad idea to waste the lives of your men for very little gain, it's been like that throughout history, why should it be any different in 40k?
Two words grim dark. Grim dark is really code for silly, but it's also the coolest part about the GI. (Try it sometimes, replace the words grim dark with silly or joke. It fits quite well.) You take away the silly waste of lives the silly bad tactics, the silly bad equipment and what do you get.
Sacrificing a platoon of men to sieze a strategic position, especially when you have millions more were they came from, isn't a silly waste of lives or a silly tactic. What makes it so grim dark is that the IG have enough resources where expending vast amounts of men and equipment for even the most trivial of goals isn't silly, but a viable tactic.
Yarrickshad wrote:Because any man/woman worth the title of general knows it's a bad idea to waste the lives of your men for very little gain, it's been like that throughout history, why should it be any different in 40k?
Two words grim dark. Grim dark is really code for silly, but it's also the coolest part about the GI. (Try it sometimes, replace the words grim dark with silly or joke. It fits quite well.) You take away the silly waste of lives the silly bad tactics, the silly bad equipment and what do you get.
Sacrificing a platoon of men to sieze a strategic position, especially when you have millions more were they came from, isn't a silly waste of lives or a silly tactic. What makes it so grim dark is that the IG have enough resources where expending vast amounts of men and equipment for even the most trivial of goals isn't silly, but a viable tactic.
Yes yes. We all know that the IoM is built in such a way that the silliness of the IG actually comes out as being viable in world, but from a outsiders point of view it's still rather silly.
Yes yes. We all know that the IoM is built in such a way that the silliness of the IG actually comes out as being viable in world, but from a outsiders point of view it's still rather silly.
I don't think you get it. But I can't really be bothered to get into this again.
I'm quite sure the Imperial Guard has several "Napoleons" in its ranks - but I'm just as certain that the majority consists of careless nobles who only think of their own reputation. It's just the kind of mindset that feudalism breeds - especially if you look how far 40k takes it (slavery etc).
Are reffering to servitors here? I wouldn't call them slaves.
There are plenty of instances in the fluff of people being bought and sold as slaves, with or without being lobotomized and augmented.
I'm quite sure the Imperial Guard has several "Napoleons" in its ranks - but I'm just as certain that the majority consists of careless nobles who only think of their own reputation. It's just the kind of mindset that feudalism breeds - especially if you look how far 40k takes it (slavery etc).
Are reffering to servitors here? I wouldn't call them slaves.
There are plenty of instances in the fluff of people being bought and sold as slaves, with or without being lobotomized and augmented.
Where? I've honestly never seen anything that suggests this.
If you're thinking of penal colonies that probably doesn't count, since they are paying for whatever crime they have committed against the most righteous and just Imperial Law.
Though there's also lots of "veiled" slavery such as serfom and serf bondage, like with the people of Jopall. I expect this to be the norm throughout most Imperial worlds, actually. The differences are small, but serfdom is probably seen as more civilized than slavery. Unless you're a mutant. Nobody cares about mutant slaves.
And then you have the young noble Spyrers who like to swoop down into the Underhive to hunt innocent people for fun. That's the kind of ruling caste Imperial Guard officers are recruited from.
There will also be another end of the spectrum, of course. Nobles with true ideals, who believe in serving their world and their people. Personally, I'm just saying that the egoistic, the arrogant, the sadistic and the greedy are more prevalent, though.
Deadshot wrote:Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?
A billion people is a small price to pay for the Imperium.
Yeah, when every planet have few billion citizens, and Imperum have million of worlds...
This isn't very accurate not every world has a population in the billions, many have tiny populations.
Deadshot wrote:Tell that to the Guardsmens' families.Or the family of any dead soldier.
And yet you forget that 40K is completly different to modern day Earth, when you have constant war against horrible aliens and deamons, the view point of an IoM human will be very different from our own. Planets like Cadia are breed for for war, a family of a dead Cadian could feel great pride and not sadness at all, but we don't know
Henners91 wrote:What if a Foregeworld has the resources to equip its regiments with Power Armour? Would the High Lords be all like HERESY!!!! ?
The Mechanicus is a seperate entity. They could equip all their troops (Skitari) with rubber chickens and the Imperium wouldn't be able to do anything.
Henners91 wrote:What if a Foregeworld has the resources to equip its regiments with Power Armour? Would the High Lords be all like HERESY!!!! ?
The Mechanicus is a seperate entity. They could equip all their troops (Skitari) with rubber chickens and the Imperium wouldn't be able to do anything.
The rubber chicken has an extremely sensitive machine spirit do not joke about it, or it may stop working and we will all be screwed.
Henners91 wrote:What if a Foregeworld has the resources to equip its regiments with Power Armour? Would the High Lords be all like HERESY!!!! ?
They would not. But they wouldn't do that because they would need a lot of power armors. Besides, Forge Worlds are under the command of AM, and they have their own military force ( Skitarii ).
The Forge World of Megyre,during the invasion of Hive Fleet Jormungandr,equipped the troops with shatterstorm rifles,thermal cannons and pulverizer whips.Didn't stop the nids though.You think the High Lords would say HERESY,because they have the experimental and powerful tech,and the make tihe Titans,so no.
So as Nickleback said in their song "This Afternoon"...
"The Landlord said I should buy a tent, but he can kiss my @$$ cause I paid the rent"
The Landlord being the High Lords and ther rent being the gear they make.
the only reason I can think that guardsmen wouldn't wear power armor is because they're so numerous, as such that is a lot of power armor. Power armor also requires a black carapace which I assume is difficult to produce, like power armor
Dual Face wrote:the only reason I can think that guardsmen wouldn't wear power armor is because they're so numerous, as such that is a lot of power armor. Power armor also requires a black carapace which I assume is difficult to produce, like power armor
SM power armour requires the black carapace.
How do you think Inquisitors and SoB use power armour? They have a different type, it isn't as responsive i suppose but it works the same at being armour.
Non-Astartes power armor doesn't have to require a neural link-up, but it can. For example, the Adeptus Mechanicus uses power armor in its techpriests that are going into a combat situation. Dragonskin armor utilizes the Techpriest's own implants to interface with the techpriest directly, in fact, the techpriest may very well actually have a tighter connection with his armor than a marine does with his.
Deadshot wrote:Tell that to the Guardsmens' families.Or the family of any dead soldier.
"The fallen shall be forever remembered as the Emperor's finest."
"Our Imperium is built upon the bones of martyrs."
"Our Imperium floats on a sea of the blood of martyrs."
"There is no greater honor than to die in the service of the Emperor."
"Even a man who has nothing may still give his life for the Emperor."
"Glory to the first man to die"
Also, remember that people who join the IG will almost never see their homeworld again, even if they do survive every battlefield they find themselves on. When one is selected for service in the Guard, your family says its farewells before you ship out, because they're never going to see you again, whether you live or die. If you happen to make your way into the ranks of the officers and then die, then your children will be candidates for the Schola Progenum (assuming your spouse is also dead). If you die, as an enlisted soldier, it is unlikely that your family will ever be told, unless they happen to erect some monument to the fallen on particular worlds that your family happens to live on. Usually, though, this is not done... such monuments are erected upon the worlds where the battles took place.
Heck, even if you survive to retirement, usually the Guard gives you a piece of land on a world you conquered and tells you "go colonize it". That's what Gaunt's Ghosts are waiting for.
Melissia wrote:Heck, even if you survive to retirement, usually the Guard gives you a piece of land on a world you conquered and tells you "go colonize it". That's what Gaunt's Ghosts are waiting for.
How often dose that happen though? Also how do they decide that you have done enough and it's time to raise the sheep. Is it based on time, points, or just when they have new land they need filled?
Alright,I get the pouint,you all like guard.I don't.\I don't like the aesthetics,the weapons,and not just becasue they have been flashlights game wise.I think the tanks are clumbsy looking,they don't do things efficently,and they generally are not welcome as my allies.My views,and I stand by them.
Deadshot wrote:Alright,I get the pouint,you all like guard.I don't.\I don't like the aesthetics,the weapons,and not just becasue they have been flashlights game wise.I think the tanks are clumbsy looking,they don't do things efficently,and they generally are not welcome as my allies.My views,and I stand by them.
That's the point to the Imperial Guard...
The weapons and equipment are utilitarian. The tactics and strategies are often sub-par.
They are normal people trained for a bit, given a comparably weak gun and sent against the numberless hordes of mankind.
They are slightly doomed... only slightly.
Deadshot wrote:All this makes them seem incompentent,and ineffective,weaknesses in the3 armies fluff,and weaknesses should be dealt with.
Why is it a weakness? It's a character flaw.
They aren't super men. They aren't perfect. They are human and they fight for the survival of mankind against nightmares.
Ineffective is the last thing they are. Some commanders are incompetant but they quickly die or are executed.
Deadshot wrote:Flaws are weaknesses.Weakness must be eradicated with extreme hatred and righteouss anger.
So... you want everyone to worship the ultramarines?
Everything has a character flaw. Even you. It's what (probably) makes you an interesting person. That's what makes Matt Ward so hated. It's because "FLAWS ARE AWFUL EVERYONE MUST BE PERFECT" is the stance he has taken. A good general can work to lessen the impact of his/her flaw and exploit their opponents. It makes the game interesting and fun.
Guardsmen would never get power armor, because the entire point of the IG is standardization across the entire organization. ALL IG get a lasgun. The exact model may differ from regiment to regiment, but every gun is a lasgun. EVERY IG trooper gets flak armor. It may be a chest plate over BDUs like the Cadian version, or it could be thick, brigandine-like jackets like the ones the Mordians use. But it WILL be flak armor, no exceptions. EVERY regiment gets a Commissar. Some Commissars don't last long in some regiments (Hi Catachan! I'm looking at you!) but everybody gets one.
So, there's no room for individual regiments of IG to start fielding power armor, no matter how rich their own planets are. Local PDFs might have power armor, if the governor has more money than sense, but when/if his men get inducted into the IG, they will have that snazzy kit taken away and replaced by lasgun and flak armor. If they complain, their shiny new Commissar will explain the benefits to them with his bolt pistol.
Relax guys,it was a joke.I actually don't mind books,but the thought of someone like that annoys me,and am a perfectionist,so I need to get stuff right.
Just FYI,I play nids and Marines,and am going to start GK in December.
Melissia wrote:Heck, even if you survive to retirement, usually the Guard gives you a piece of land on a world you conquered and tells you "go colonize it". That's what Gaunt's Ghosts are waiting for.
How often dose that happen though? Also how do they decide that you have done enough and it's time to raise the sheep. Is it based on time, points, or just when they have new land they need filled?
I read once (a thousand years ago.. in the Epic 40K book I think) that a standard tour of service in the IG is twenty years, with a soldier's final campaign being the one in which his regiment conquers the planet he will live on. I haven't seen anything that contradicts this. Since the IG codex talks of regiments being "re-founded" it could be inferred that the regiments being re-founded have finished their 20 year tours. Also, since few regiments apart fromt he Vostroyans reinforce their regiments once they are deployed, it could also be seen that the regiment is being re-founded to replace a formation that was attritted to death...
Deadshot wrote:Relax guys,it was a joke.I actually don't mind books,but the thought of someone like that annoys me,and am a perfectionist,so I need to get stuff right.
Just FYI,I play nids and Marines,and am going to start GK in December.
We don't think you mind books but a perfect character is boring and frankly unreal.
You said boring twice.I don't mibnd imperfect characters,just imperfections with the way a general thing works in the game or fluff.I am very passionate about the hobby,and I don't like feeling that guardsmen ruin it with wasteful tactics,and corrupt systems.
Hate Orks and Chaos marines,Eldar don't believe in Cannon Fodder,so they are fine.Chaos Daemons can't really die,so that doesn't count,and the biomatter iof the dead nids is recycled,so no loses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tagboard Wizard wrote:Deadshot, you play ultra-marines, don't you?
How dare you!Ultramarines are the one thing I hate more than guard.I hate the coverboys of anything.They are just cocky.They are hated!
As a matyer of fact I play post Aurelia Blood Ravens,with an alternate fluff I created to fight the models I own.
Deadshot wrote:Hate Orks and Chaos marines,Eldar don't believe in Cannon Fodder,so they are fine.Chaos Daemons can't really die,so that doesn't count,and the biomatter iof the dead nids is recycled,so no loses.
Poor balistic skill.I would use them if I had to,but I prefer Eldar.Tau suck at CC,bnot counting Ninja Fire Warriors taking on TH/SS Termies,and I like to get close and purposeful.
Deadshot wrote:Poor balistic skill.I would use them if I had to,but I prefer Eldar.Tau suck at CC,bnot counting Ninja Fire Warriors taking on TH/SS Termies,and I like to get close and purposeful.
Really? You hate Orks becaue of 1 single thing?
They may have a poor BS but they make up for it with their basic troop choice being very good in CC when used correctly.
Deadshot wrote:Poor balistic skill.I would use them if I had to,but I prefer Eldar.Tau suck at CC,bnot counting Ninja Fire Warriors taking on TH/SS Termies,and I like to get close and purposeful.
My Orks have crushed every enemy I have ever played. Tabling by turn 5 is a common occurrence with them.
Now, you're saying that orks suck at shooting? That's why I get 30 shots before I charge and get 120 attacks.
squidhills wrote:Guardsmen would never get power armor, because the entire point of the IG is standardization across the entire organization. ALL IG get a lasgun. The exact model may differ from regiment to regiment, but every gun is a lasgun. EVERY IG trooper gets flak armor. It may be a chest plate over BDUs like the Cadian version, or it could be thick, brigandine-like jackets like the ones the Mordians use. But it WILL be flak armor, no exceptions.
That's not exactly true, there is far less standardization across the IG than what the statlines suggest. This starts with the armour types you've mentioned - there's quite a difference between chestplates and jackets to begin with, and when we look at Catachans we do see IG soldiers who get either a t-shirt(!), a sleeveless tactical vest or absolutely nothing for their chest. And then we have Regiments whose very tactics are completely different to others, such as the Attilan Rough Riders with their horses and lances.
The one and only thing that truly is standardized per Munitorum decree is the compatibility of ammunition, because when Regiments of 20 different worlds are combined into a single army then all bullets and power packs better fit into everyone's gun! The Imperium doesn't care at all whether one Regiment of these twenty goes into battle wearing fur, being naked or being encapsuled in powered armour. The latter just doesn't happen very often because no Governor would invest that many resources into his PDF only to have the Munitorum tithe it away the next year.
I was under the impression that las weaponry was powered via heat transfer. Like 'something something Guardsmen sometimes throw their lasrifle clip into fires to give them a quick recharge, a practice frowned upon due to reducing the lifespan of the battery something something...'
Deadshot wrote:All this makes them seem incompentent,and ineffective,weaknesses in the3 armies fluff,and weaknesses should be dealt with.
I actually find the guard coolest when I imagine them getting slaughtered; that's their purpose, they get bashed up horribly to make others look heroic when they come to rescue them.
What's grimdark about a modern cutting-edge military that fights competently?
Much more awesome to imagine good old Chenkov and his waves of conscripts...
Dont you need the "Black carapace" implant with sockets cut into it use proper power armour? I remember from the novels that this has to be done before puberty finishes otherwise it kills ya. Inquisitors could probably get this done, hey, they can live for hundreds of years, they could have access to this neh?
Dont you need the "Black carapace" implant with sockets cut into it use proper power armour? I remember from the novels that this has to be done before puberty finishes otherwise it kills ya. Inquisitors could probably get this done, hey, they can live for hundreds of years, they could have access to this neh?
Dont you need the "Black carapace" implant with sockets cut into it use proper power armour? I remember from the novels that this has to be done before puberty finishes otherwise it kills ya. Inquisitors could probably get this done, hey, they can live for hundreds of years, they could have access to this neh?
Loki
Black Carapace is a Space Marine thing. It allows them to wear PA as a second skin, but is not necessary. Sisters don't use it and neither do Inquisitors.
Dont you need the "Black carapace" implant with sockets cut into it use proper power armour? I remember from the novels that this has to be done before puberty finishes otherwise it kills ya. Inquisitors could probably get this done, hey, they can live for hundreds of years, they could have access to this neh?
Loki
Black Carapace is a Space Marine thing. It allows them to wear PA as a second skin, but is not necessary. Sisters don't use it and neither do Inquisitors.
Edit
Oh yeh, i forgot about them! =they're so forgettable..hee hee
Tagboard Wizard wrote:I was under the impression that las weaponry was powered via heat transfer. Like 'something something Guardsmen sometimes throw their lasrifle clip into fires to give them a quick recharge, a practice frowned upon due to reducing the lifespan of the battery something something...'
so, no ammunition at all, right?
Well, sort of - but of course the energy still needs to be stored somewhere, and even though las power packs can be recharged at just about every generatorium (another advantage of standardization) there may be a steady need for replacements, both due to battle damage as well as simple burnout (the lifespan you mentioned). It's just more practical for the Munitorum if they only need to bother sending one kind of power pack into a battle zone. Once a Regiment has been drafted from the PDF and integrated into the Imperial Guard, it is completely dependent on Munitorum supply chains and will no longer receive stuff from their own homeworld where they were raised.
It's admittedly more important for the heavy weapon support teams and armoured units, though. You know, heavy bolter and autocannon shells, battle cannon rounds et cetera.
Nicholas wrote:Black Carapace is a Space Marine thing. It allows them to wear PA as a second skin, but is not necessary. Sisters don't use it and neither do Inquisitors.
Indeed, there are several ways by how power armour can be controlled. The Black Carapace is one, Mechanicus MIU implants (as presumably used by Tech Priests for controlling their mechadendrites) are another - the latter being able to pretty much replicate the effect of the former, but also requiring heavy surgery. I've read once that this is why Sisters still have to rely on more standard means of interfacing (pressure control sensors and/or muscle nerve electrodes) ... Vandire simply preferred the bodies of his bodyguard to remain pretty. At least that was the in-universe rumor, the official version being that the Ecclesiarchy does not want to depend on the AdMech for supply of these implants (which would also explain why this detail of the contracts remained unchanged after the Age of Apostasy). Inquisitors are pretty much free to choose what they want, limited only by their connections and resources.
Deadshot wrote:Flaws are weaknesses.Weakness must be eradicated with extreme hatred and righteouss anger.
Guard may be weak, individually. But together, they can even stop Ork horde. Imagine a line consisting of thousands of Guardsman, all entrenched. Thats voley after voley after voley of fire, nothing get's trough that. Add Tanks as a support and Artillery and you get "area clear" confirmation.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
purplefood wrote:
We don't think you mind books but a perfect character is boring and frankly unreal.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass
While I appreciate the analogy illustrating that guardsmen are better when working in a combined arms force, I think your assessment of US? soldiers is pretty far gone. Without getting sore about it, I'll say that I've worked with or against a pretty good cross section of soldiers from around the world, and US soldiers are top tier.
While I appreciate the analogy illustrating that guardsmen are better when working in a combined arms force, I think your assessment of US? soldiers is pretty far gone. Without getting sore about it, I'll say that I've worked with or against a pretty good cross section of soldiers from around the world, and US soldiers are top tier.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass
While I appreciate the analogy illustrating that guardsmen are better when working in a combined arms force, I think your assessment of US? soldiers is pretty far gone. Without getting sore about it, I'll say that I've worked with or against a pretty good cross section of soldiers from around the world, and US soldiers are top tier.
Dan
This chap wishes to differ:
BUH-ZING!
I think that what was being suggested was that if you stick two men opposite one another and give them each a gun that they know how to fire, it might work out 50/50.
Though I can see how this could quickly devolve into an argument about training and whatnot... oh deah... But hey, I'm sure even a Swiss soldier can shoot pretty well (and I am talking about shooting as an isolated skill; so it's irrelevant that he's certain to run away... derp)
Brother Coa wrote:Imagine a line consisting of thousands of Guardsman, all entrenched. Thats voley after voley after voley of fire, nothing get's trough that.
Add Tanks as a support and Artillery and you get "area clear" confirmation.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass.
Brother Coa wrote:Imagine a line consisting of thousands of Guardsman, all entrenched. Thats voley after voley after voley of fire, nothing get's trough that. Add Tanks as a support and Artillery and you get "area clear" confirmation.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass.
Let me give you a history lesson,on WWI......
And I will give you lessons of WW II, Cold War crisis as well as invasion of Avganistan and Iraq.
Brother Coa wrote:Imagine a line consisting of thousands of Guardsman, all entrenched. Thats voley after voley after voley of fire, nothing get's trough that.
Add Tanks as a support and Artillery and you get "area clear" confirmation.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass.
Let me give you a history lesson,on WWI......
And I will give you lessons of WW II, Cold War crisis as well as invasion of Avganistan and Iraq.
How about, instead of arguing about the USA military record we drop this. The USA has had some very admirable military victories and some disasters like many countries that have fought wars over the years.
purplefood wrote:
How about, instead of arguing about the USA military record we drop this. The USA has had some very admirable military victories and some disasters like many countries that have fought wars over the years.
Fair enough...
Let us just say that Guard tactics work most of the time.
Just to point out something brother coa, the us military is the worlds premire military. You showed a viet cong. Look up the casualties and youll see that the us lost about 60000 soldiers while the nva lost 1.1 million. The us won the war from the military perspective.
Back to IG. They dont get power armor because its too expensive. Carapace armor is as good as it gets really. And fluff wise carapace is pretty sick armor.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just to point out something brother coa, the us military is the worlds premire military. You showed a viet cong. Look up the casualties and youll see that the us lost about 60000 soldiers while the nva lost 1.1 million. The us won the war from the military perspective.
Yeah, and 1 solder spend around 75.000 bullets per week, and more than half of them go nuts after getting back home. Not to mention drug addiction. The reason why North Vietnam had that much casualties was charging across open field against entrenched G.I, and are we forgetting massive bombardment here? All I want to point here that all your "perfect solder" is just propaganda for people, average US solder is not that much professional ( like you can see in that video ). And Russian and China military force is not small thing to misplace.
Back to IG. They dont get power armor because its too expensive. Carapace armor is as good as it gets really. And fluff wise carapace is pretty sick armor.
Oh i agree the perfect soldier is propaganda, i mean their only human. It annoys me when people make it sound like the military got its butt handed to it in vietnam. Thats all. But i will agree that it was a low point for the army.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Oh i agree the perfect soldier is propaganda, i mean their only human. It annoys me when people make it sound like the military got its butt handed to it in vietnam. Thats all. But i will agree that it was a low point for the army.
I didn't mean to offend. I never said that, and we all know the main reason why Vietnam war was lost:
-The public at home didn't support the war. -After that US troops retreated and live everything to SVA. -After that US stop financing SV Government. -After that SV fall to the still supported NV.
Brother Coa wrote:Imagine a line consisting of thousands of Guardsman, all entrenched. Thats voley after voley after voley of fire, nothing get's trough that.
Add Tanks as a support and Artillery and you get "area clear" confirmation.
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass.
Let me give you a history lesson,on WWI......
And I will give you lessons of WW II, Cold War crisis as well as invasion of Avganistan and Iraq.
Henners91 wrote:
wonkobaggins wrote:
Like in a real world. Basic US Army marine suck against other solders. But give him platoon, give him Abrams, support him with air support and he can kick everyone's ass
While I appreciate the analogy illustrating that guardsmen are better when working in a combined arms force, I think your assessment of US? soldiers is pretty far gone. Without getting sore about it, I'll say that I've worked with or against a pretty good cross section of soldiers from around the world, and US soldiers are top tier.
Dan
This chap wishes to differ:
BUH-ZING!
I think that what was being suggested was that if you stick two men opposite one another and give them each a gun that they know how to fire, it might work out 50/50.
Though I can see how this could quickly devolve into an argument about training and whatnot... oh deah... But hey, I'm sure even a Swiss soldier can shoot pretty well (and I am talking about shooting as an isolated skill; so it's irrelevant that he's certain to run away... derp)
Brother Coa wrote:
wonkobaggins wrote:
While I appreciate the analogy illustrating that guardsmen are better when working in a combined arms force, I think your assessment of US? soldiers is pretty far gone. Without getting sore about it, I'll say that I've worked with or against a pretty good cross section of soldiers from around the world, and US soldiers are top tier.
Dan
Brother Coa
Brother Coa wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just to point out something brother coa, the us military is the worlds premire military. You showed a viet cong. Look up the casualties and youll see that the us lost about 60000 soldiers while the nva lost 1.1 million. The us won the war from the military perspective.
Yeah, and 1 solder spend around 75.000 bullets per week, and more than half of them go nuts after getting back home. Not to mention drug addiction. The reason why North Vietnam had that much casualties was charging across open field against entrenched G.I, and are we forgetting massive bombardment here? All I want to point here that all your "perfect solder" is just propaganda for people, average US solder is not that much professional ( like you can see in that video ). And Russian and China military force is not small thing to misplace.
Back to IG. They dont get power armor because its too expensive. Carapace armor is as good as it gets really. And fluff wise carapace is pretty sick armor.
This I agree.
Brother Coa wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Oh i agree the perfect soldier is propaganda, i mean their only human. It annoys me when people make it sound like the military got its butt handed to it in vietnam. Thats all. But i will agree that it was a low point for the army.
I didn't mean to offend. I never said that, and we all know the main reason why Vietnam war was lost:
-The public at home didn't support the war.
-After that US troops retreated and live everything to SVA.
-After that US stop financing SV Government.
-After that SV fall to the still supported NV.
Guys, lets get back to talking about our toy soldiers. In fact, I don't even know why we are still talking. The question has been answered.
I could see a very wealthy scion of a noble family from a PDF in PA. There's a precedent in the BL novel Rogue Trader, PA is in the hands of civilians, although I'd argue that true to original fluff RTs arent really civvies. Creed in PA are uber.
To the off topic dribble. I saw a rather disparaging comment implying the Swiss couldn't shoot. That seems fairly uninformed consider Switzerland has a nationally mandated marksmanship program, one that's actually supported and enforced for anyone willing to bring up CMP.
The truth is that the light infantryman, from any nation, in any time period. With a relativly modern weapon has been the premier force throughout history. With a few notable exceptions. In the modern age, one man with a bolt action rifle and average or better marksmanship can define a battlefield.
Deadshot wrote:All this makes them seem incompetent,and ineffective,weaknesses in the3 armies fluff,and weaknesses should be dealt with.
I actually find the guard coolest when I imagine them getting slaughtered; that's their purpose, they get bashed up horribly to make others look heroic when they come to rescue them.
What's grimdark about a modern cutting-edge military that fights competently?
Much more awesome to imagine good old Chenkov and his waves of conscripts...
If that was the case then what does that tell you about the enemies of the Imperium?
If the guard were led by incompetent morons, given rubbish weapons and armour with little training, supported by vehicles ineffective that fall apart constantly then all it does is show how moronically incompetent their enemies are for not being able to kick their backsides all the way back to the golden throne. That's not grimdark at all IMO.
It's far more grimdark showing the Guard as a well trained, well led fighting force with powerful and effective equipment. It really highlights just how utterly dangerous the enemies of the Imperium actually are.
Fortunately a lot of the fluff show the Guard as the latter.
Yarrickshad wrote:
If the guard were led by incompetent morons, given rubbish weapons and armour with little training, supported by vehicles ineffective that fall apart constantly then all it does is show how moronically incompetent their enemies are for not being able to kick their backsides all the way back to the golden throne. That's not grimdark at all IMO.
Some boys from Cadia, Krieg, Elysia, Vostroya, Mordia, Tallarn, Armageddon and others would like to give their own opinion on this...
Yarrickshad wrote:
If the guard were led by incompetent morons, given rubbish weapons and armour with little training, supported by vehicles ineffective that fall apart constantly then all it does is show how moronically incompetent their enemies are for not being able to kick their backsides all the way back to the golden throne. That's not grimdark at all IMO.
Some boys from Cadia, Krieg, Elysia, Vostroya, Mordia, Tallarn, Armageddon and others would like to give their own opinion on this...
Coa read the damn post... and quote the entire post as well.
Yarrickshad wrote:
If the guard were led by incompetent morons, given rubbish weapons and armour with little training, supported by vehicles ineffective that fall apart constantly then all it does is show how moronically incompetent their enemies are for not being able to kick their backsides all the way back to the golden throne. That's not grimdark at all IMO.
Some boys from Cadia, Krieg, Elysia, Vostroya, Mordia, Tallarn, Armageddon and others would like to give their own opinion on this...
I wasn't having a go at the guard, quite the opposite actually, but even so that is seven worlds out of a million or so, a tiny amount of the Guards total strength.
AustonT wrote:I could see a very wealthy scion of a noble family from a PDF in PA. There's a precedent in the BL novel Rogue Trader, PA is in the hands of civilians, although I'd argue that true to original fluff RTs arent really civvies. Creed in PA are uber.
To the off topic dribble. I saw a rather disparaging comment implying the Swiss couldn't shoot. That seems fairly uninformed consider Switzerland has a nationally mandated marksmanship program, one that's actually supported and enforced for anyone willing to bring up CMP.
The truth is that the light infantryman, from any nation, in any time period. With a relativly modern weapon has been the premier force throughout history. With a few notable exceptions. In the modern age, one man with a bolt action rifle and average or better marksmanship can define a battlefield.
I based my rather ignorant assumption on one article the BBC did about how the Swiss had a referendum discussing the possibility of disbanding their armed forces. Some men interviewed who were 'weekend soldiers' if you will (since every man is eligible to serve) said they imagined they'd run away rather than actually fight if it came to a war.
...And everyone knows that the Swiss are goblin-like creatures much more comfortable manipulating funds in Gringotts than running through a battlefield (it's not racist if Attlee said it!)
Yarrickshad wrote:
Henners91 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:All this makes them seem incompetent,and ineffective,weaknesses in the3 armies fluff,and weaknesses should be dealt with.
I actually find the guard coolest when I imagine them getting slaughtered; that's their purpose, they get bashed up horribly to make others look heroic when they come to rescue them.
What's grimdark about a modern cutting-edge military that fights competently?
Much more awesome to imagine good old Chenkov and his waves of conscripts...
If that was the case then what does that tell you about the enemies of the Imperium?
If the guard were led by incompetent morons, given rubbish weapons and armour with little training, supported by vehicles ineffective that fall apart constantly then all it does is show how moronically incompetent their enemies are for not being able to kick their backsides all the way back to the golden throne. That's not grimdark at all IMO.
It's far more grimdark showing the Guard as a well trained, well led fighting force with powerful and effective equipment. It really highlights just how utterly dangerous the enemies of the Imperium actually are.
Fortunately a lot of the fluff show the Guard as the latter.
It's because there are ZILLIONS OF GUARDSMEN on one battlefield... and even inept morons can hit something when they are ZILLIONS of them.
The galaxy is a big place. So your bound to run into incompetent regiments. But if you have read any of the background, the guard is a competent army, but for some reason they are flanderized into being poorly trained conscripts send forward to die. Even tho the background states that the planet gives the best soldiers they have.
The thing is the guard are only human. Standing against enemies that are stronger, faster, and tougher then they are, and they hold the line,or die fighting.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The galaxy is a big place. So your bound to run into incompetent regiments. But if you have read any of the background, the guard is a competent army, but for some reason they are flanderized into being poorly trained conscripts send forward to die. Even tho the background states that the planet gives the best soldiers they have.
The thing is the guard are only human. Standing against enemies that are stronger, faster, and tougher then they are, and they hold the line,or die fighting.
And that is why I love them
And one more thing, most military force in the Imperium aren't Guards but PDF. These "incompetent regiments" are basically PDF troopers with little to medium training. While Guardsman get medium to full battle training ( depending of time they have until engagement ). Only Regiments I know of that are using conscripts are Cadians and Valhallans, but they use them for "live training" not meat shield.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The galaxy is a big place. So your bound to run into incompetent regiments. But if you have read any of the background, the guard is a competent army, but for some reason they are flanderized into being poorly trained conscripts send forward to die. Even tho the background states that the planet gives the best soldiers they have.
The thing is the guard are only human. Standing against enemies that are stronger, faster, and tougher then they are, and they hold the line,or die fighting.
And that is why I love them
And one more thing, most military force in the Imperium aren't Guards but PDF. These "incompetent regiments" are basically PDF troopers with little to medium training. While Guardsman get medium to full battle training ( depending of time they have until engagement ). Only Regiments I know of that are using conscripts are Cadians and Valhallans, but they use them for "live training" not meat shield.
I am sorry, WW2 Soviets use EVERYONE as meat shields.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The galaxy is a big place. So your bound to run into incompetent regiments. But if you have read any of the background, the guard is a competent army, but for some reason they are flanderized into being poorly trained conscripts send forward to die. Even tho the background states that the planet gives the best soldiers they have.
The thing is the guard are only human. Standing against enemies that are stronger, faster, and tougher then they are, and they hold the line,or die fighting.
And that is why I love them
And one more thing, most military force in the Imperium aren't Guards but PDF. These "incompetent regiments" are basically PDF troopers with little to medium training. While Guardsman get medium to full battle training ( depending of time they have until engagement ). Only Regiments I know of that are using conscripts are Cadians and Valhallans, but they use them for "live training" not meat shield.
I am sorry, WW2 Soviets use EVERYONE as meat shields.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The galaxy is a big place. So your bound to run into incompetent regiments. But if you have read any of the background, the guard is a competent army, but for some reason they are flanderized into being poorly trained conscripts send forward to die. Even tho the background states that the planet gives the best soldiers they have.
The thing is the guard are only human. Standing against enemies that are stronger, faster, and tougher then they are, and they hold the line,or die fighting.
And that is why I love them
And one more thing, most military force in the Imperium aren't Guards but PDF. These "incompetent regiments" are basically PDF troopers with little to medium training. While Guardsman get medium to full battle training ( depending of time they have until engagement ). Only Regiments I know of that are using conscripts are Cadians and Valhallans, but they use them for "live training" not meat shield.
I am sorry, WW2 Soviets use EVERYONE as meat shields.
Cadains, it's more of a honor and training thing.
Moar like Call of Duty and Enemy at the Gates' bastardised versions of history say they did.
@henners
Through most of the middle ages to the present the cantons of the Swiss confederacy have supplied the premier mercenaries on the European continent. Through reputation, training, and location the Swiss haven't been seriously threatened from the outside for what 500 years?
I'm not Swiss, it's just food for thought that Swiss banks EXIST because of Swiss mercenaries.
Even weekend warriors are dangerous when you threaten thier homes. Especially when those weekend warriors are members of a country with a long history of martial evidence.
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Martial Excellence.
Sure, but I don't think we can use history as a basis for martial prowess; a militia is a militia. If we use history as our logic then surely I as an Englishman should be a badass with a longbow ;P
Gotta say, taking a step back, it's amazing that I managed to de-rail a thread about guardsmen in power armour toward the subject of Swiss military prowess. Herp a derp?
Deadshot wrote:All this makes them seem incompetent,and ineffective,weaknesses in the3 armies fluff,and weaknesses should be dealt with.
I actually find the guard coolest when I imagine them getting slaughtered; that's their purpose, they get bashed up horribly to make others look heroic when they come to rescue them.
What's grimdark about a modern cutting-edge military that fights competently?
Much more awesome to imagine good old Chenkov and his waves of conscripts...
If that was the case then what does that tell you about the enemies of the Imperium?
If the guard were led by incompetent morons, given rubbish weapons and armour with little training, supported by vehicles ineffective that fall apart constantly then all it does is show how moronically incompetent their enemies are for not being able to kick their backsides all the way back to the golden throne. That's not grimdark at all IMO.
It's far more grimdark showing the Guard as a well trained, well led fighting force with powerful and effective equipment. It really highlights just how utterly dangerous the enemies of the Imperium actually are.
Fortunately a lot of the fluff show the Guard as the latter.
Henners91 wrote:It's because there are ZILLIONS OF GUARDSMEN on one battlefield... and even inept morons can hit something when they are ZILLIONS of them.
I knew you would say that!
I'm afraid having ZILLIONS of guardsmen on one battlefield means frak all when you consider the truly horrific firepower that is being hurled around in your average warzone. Not only that but 40k wars actually tend to be quite small in scale.
Chenkov is a "special case", he should be sedated and put in isolated incarceration. Suffice to say that for every Chenkov there would be hundreds of commanders that are the exact opposite.
Yarrickshad wrote:Suffice to say that for every Chenkov there would be hundreds of commanders that are the exact opposite.
What makes you say that, though? Generally, the nobility in 40k doesn't really strike me as the kind of people that are all brilliant tacticians or that they would have any love for their subordinates. This is the grimdark future of the 41st Millennium, where a single tank is worth more than the lives of 100 conscripts.
Indeed. Once Chenkov feths up, I'm sure some committee will charge him with "irresponsible waste of life".
The same would happen to, say, Creed if he fails, though, only that the committee will now say that he has not thrown enough meat into the grinder.
Actually, isn't this exactly what happened to Green - the very reason for him being reassigned to a Penal Battalion?
The Imperium does not care at all about the lives of some soldier. It cares about victory and defeat. This is 40k, and I do believe the low value of human life is an important aspect of the setting's style.
Henners91 wrote:Sure, but I don't think we can use history as a basis for martial prowess; a militia is a militia. If we use history as our logic then surely I as an Englishman should be a badass with a longbow ;P
Gotta say, taking a step back, it's amazing that I managed to de-rail a thread about guardsmen in power armour toward the subject of Swiss military prowess. Herp a derp?
I'm a military historian, it's my passion. It also means I spend a lot of time studying religion which makes 40k the ultimate hobby for me. Literally discussed the cult of Ba'al today.
On topic IG in power armor is also feasible in that SoB are really chick guard in PA.
For the Imperium, technology is scarce and people are plentiful. It is much more efficient for them to arm a ton more guardsmen instead of divert valuable and prized power armor resources which are in high demand by the elites in the SoB/Admech/Marines/PDF.
AustonT wrote:On topic IG in power armor is also feasible in that SoB are really chick guard in PA.
Apart from no governor throwing a quarter of his planet's annual production at the Munitorum for no reason other than having too much money, it should also be remembered that Sisters Militant are raised from childbirth to become holy warriors, undergoing decades of training at some of the Imperium's finest facilities to reach the peak of human perfection. Your average freshly recruited Imperial Guard regiment is a tithe of PDF conscripts with a few months of basic training and no practical experience beyond ceremonial duties and a maneuver or two or whatever they learned on the streets (given that sometimes the IG recruits straight out of hive gangs). Not every Imperial world is Cadia, you know.
Sisters should really better be compared to Storm Troopers, considering that both come from the Schola Progenium and share a somewhat similar upbringing and unforgiving training regimen.
Though I would actually say that Storm Troopers are a bit better trained still, given that they focus entirely on the martial aspect instead of also having to devote a good deal of time to prayer and study sessions or having their tactical thinking endangered of being clouded by religious zeal.
Are storm troopers not IG?
I didn't mean to imply that line guardsmen would wear PA, just that it's feasible in the way sisters are: in relatively low numbers.
Oh, yeah, they are - in a way at least. It's a specialized regiment that receives advanced training and equipment and is recruited from all over the Imperium instead of a single specific homeworld. They are practically born into their job, similar to the Sisters Militant.
When people talk of IG, I generally assume they are referring to the rank-and-file Guardsmen. Sorry for the confusion.
AustonT wrote:I didn't mean to imply that line guardsmen would wear PA, just that it's feasible in the way sisters are: in relatively low numbers.
In theory, yes - it's just that a Guard regiment's equipment comes from its homeworld and not the Munitorum, so the local governor would have to pay for power armour that he himself will never get to reap the benefits of since the unit would get "tithed away" soon. It is for this reason that I believe that there would be a certain "reluctance" on the governors' part that would lead to the whole thing being theoretically possible but practically never being done, as the Lord Governor would deem it a waste of resources.
Of course it would all happen in service to the Imperium and the Munitorum would surely put a power-armoured regiment to good use - but somehow I just don't think Imperial nobles are that generous. There is always room for exceptions, of course, like when a governor makes it a point to gift the very best-equipped regiment of all times to the Imperial Guard in order to curry favour with the Munitorum or dispel rumours about his disloyalty ... but all in all, it'd be very non-standard, which is why this stuff isn't possible as per the Codex.
Lynata wrote:Where a single tank is worth more than the lives of 100 conscripts.
Aren't that scale even now in use?
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AustonT wrote:
On topic IG in power armor is also feasible in that SoB are really chick guard in PA.
Uh.... Sisters are taken as orphans and such. Trained from birth to believe in Imperial Creed and have decades of training. They are more than "chick guard in PA" - they are between Guard and Astartes ( not to mention Act's of Faith ).
Lynata wrote: Your average freshly recruited Imperial Guard regiment is a tithe of PDF conscripts with a few months of basic training and no practical experience beyond ceremonial duties and a maneuver or two or whatever they learned on the streets (given that sometimes the IG recruits straight out of hive gangs). Not every Imperial world is Cadia, you know.
The average regiment recruited is taken from the elite of the worlds pdf. I would think this means they are well trained and capable fighting force. Plus guardsmen taken from feral feudal hive and death worlds are going to be pretty tough due to their background. Then they recieve further training on the voyage to the warzone. Which could take months or years. The iom is a big place and it takes a while to get from a to b.
Brother Coa wrote:
On topic IG in power armor is also feasible in that SoB are really chick guard in PA.
Uh.... Sisters are taken as orphans and such.
I thought the Ecclesiary(shifty spelling),went round planetslike the SM,recriuting only virgins at a young age?At the very lest I know they aere all virgins.
The Sisters of Battle are recruited from the Schola Progenium, which takes orphans of dead soldiers and officers and trains them to become stormtroopers, commissars, sisters, officers, and other high ranking members of the Imperium (even a few Lord Sectors or High Lords might come from the Schola!)
Deadshot wrote:
I thought the Ecclesiary(shifty spelling),went round planetslike the SM,recriuting only virgins at a young age?At the very lest I know they are all virgins.
Of course they are virgins, THEY ARE TAKEN AS LITTLE GIRLS!!! ( probably 5 or 8 years old ).
And they're raised in a school which is co-ed, in a culture where sex is not looked upon as a bad thing unless it's done in excess...
So if they ever actually had time and inclination, they wouldn't be virgins. Course, they likely never really had time for such things, because they're too busy training.
Yeah, that was done rather tastelessly, much like a lot of things in Cain's Last Stand (psychic Hitler-clone comes to mind). But the Imperium's culture isn't the same as ours, we can't exactly use our own ideas on sexuality as a basis. Remember, the Imperium essentially expects people to have sex and have babies, and it's perfectly normal and even desirable because each new child will grow up to be a worker or soldier. And if it's a sister of battle, the child will likely grow up in the schola progenium anyway, so even in the extremely unlikely event of one having sex and getting pregnant, it's really a non-issue to the ecclesiarchy, though if she were on active duty (as most Sisters are, I doubt very many are in the situation the one in Cain's Last Stand is in) she'd be chastised and punished, but only because the pregnancy would get in the way of the actual duties.
If the disobey,then they get shot.The officer willingly sacrifices all his soldiers to win the war.
Ursakar Creed would try and find other alternatives to that. He wouldn't willingly throw his soldier's lives away. He would try and use each and every soul the best he can to win.
If the disobey,then they get shot.The officer willingly sacrifices all his soldiers to win the war.
Ursakar Creed would try and find other alternatives to that. He wouldn't willingly throw his soldier's lives away. He would try and use each and every soul the best he can to win.
If Creed could win a battle n by sending every last man, women and child to the grinder then he would do so.
In fact in certain situations ( bad training and weapons but high discipline / esprit de corps/ motivation and numbers for example ) it can be quite smart to accept huge losses if that means that you will eventualy win trough superior numberrs. So give Creed nothing but a bunch of ill trained conscripts and you might not be able to distinguish him from Chenkov at all.
I would say leave attrition to the factions that can afford it,like nids,who just eat the bodies and remake them,or gat wiped out completly.Or orks,who don't really care if they's dead,'cuz orks jus' wanna bash some 'eads in.
Fairly sure the Imperium can afford wars of attrition...
Actually the reason they are good at it is because they have relatively well trained troops to use in battles of attrition.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The average regiment recruited is taken from the elite of the worlds pdf. I would think this means they are well trained and capable fighting force. Plus guardsmen taken from feral feudal hive and death worlds are going to be pretty tough due to their background.
This seems to be a matter of interpretation - whilst I absolutely agree about people from Feral worlds being tougher due to their normal life, this may not automatically mean an advantage for life in the Guard. What these people have in constitution is offset by their lack of understanding of "modern" tactics and weaponry, and what they have in experience from hunting or combat is different to how the Guard works. Hivers may have more of an advantage here, given that the gangs they are recruited from probably already used guns and that these guys are more inclined to fighting as a group. Each regiment would still have only experience with their native environment, but I do believe the Munitorum would actually take this into consideration for deployment, unless they really need any sort of bodies somewhere fast.
That said, I also think the majority of Imperial worlds is far more peaceful than the setting may suggest on first glance. War and violence aren't everywhere. On a feudal world or an agri world or some civilized colony, there just won't be a lot of fighting, and what PDF there is will be the shiny toys of local nobility. Unless the Imperial governor condones locally limited squabbles between his subordinate lords where these units might gain experience (which is entirely possible but probably not the norm), you'll end up with a planetary defence force that has zero actual combat experience. Which is why it is quite okay that, at times, the IGis displayed as cannonfodder. It doesn't mean that all of the IG is, just that there is a big "quality span" between, say, a Cadian regiment and a freshly recruited formation of shiny Household Guard from farmworld Bob. This also serves to stress how good Cadians actually are, for given their outstanding reputation it seems obvious that the standard has to be much lower, else they wouldn't be seen as so remarkable.
At least that is how I came to see it.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Then they recieve further training on the voyage to the warzone. Which could take months or years. The iom is a big place and it takes a while to get from a to b.
"Months" seems to be the standard, the happy medium between the weeks and years also mentioned. Travel times are often greatly exaggerated in some sources (novels?), though everything can be explained by just pointing at the warp and its time-distorting properties. It is worth pointing out that this distortion only affects the "outside" world. People on the ship itself would not notice, and for them the journey will appear notably shorter - which would somewhat limit the time you could allot for onboard training. It's probably worth pointing out that the commissarial induction time given for newly recruited regiments in the 2E Codex is given in hours. Also, unless there is a crisis situation, Guard regiment deployment distances are per Munitorum standards limited to 10.000 light years (hard to say what this actually means, but the text states that troops from the relatively peaceful Segmentae Solar and Pacificus are only sent out if the troops already deployed cannot handle the situation).
Anyways, I did not want to sound too devaluing regarding the combat readiness of newly recruited Guard regiments, I just think that the term "PDF elite" is very relative.
Melissia wrote:And they're raised in a school which is co-ed, in a culture where sex is not looked upon as a bad thing unless it's done in excess...
So if they ever actually had time and inclination, they wouldn't be virgins. Course, they likely never really had time for such things, because they're too busy training.
Of course this only applies in Mitchell's novels, which go against established Sororitas Codex fluff. The Schola Progenium as written by GW is decidedly gender-separated and makes a point about spiritual purity being connected to the pleasures of the flesh.
Deadshot wrote:I would say leave attrition to the factions that can afford it,like nids,who just eat the bodies and remake them,or gat wiped out completly.Or orks,who don't really care if they's dead,'cuz orks jus' wanna bash some 'eads in.
The guard are designed for results, if a war of attrition is needed then they do it. If not they do what is needed. Guardsmen die because the only alternative is defeat, in which they die anyway.
Yarrickshad wrote:Suffice to say that for every Chenkov there would be hundreds of commanders that are the exact opposite.
What makes you say that, though? Generally, the nobility in 40k doesn't really strike me as the kind of people that are all brilliant tacticians or that they would have any love for their subordinates. This is the grimdark future of the 41st Millennium, where a single tank is worth more than the lives of 100 conscripts.
I'd say most are competent tacticians, not brilliant and the fluff supports that argument. As you most likely know, all high ranking commanders are supplied through the departmento Munitorum and are versed in the Tactica Imperium, in addition they have a full cadre of general staff and aids to help him/her perform his/her duty, One of note is the Imperial Tactician. And if that isn't enough then there is always a commissar to keep a close eye for any sign of lapse of focus or incompetence, that also includes the unnecessary waste of life.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The average regiment recruited is taken from the elite of the worlds pdf. I would think this means they are well trained and capable fighting force. Plus guardsmen taken from feral feudal hive and death worlds are going to be pretty tough due to their background.
Lynata wrote:This seems to be a matter of interpretation - whilst I absolutely agree about people from Feral worlds being tougher due to their normal life, this may not automatically mean an advantage for life in the Guard. What these people have in constitution is offset by their lack of understanding of "modern" tactics and weaponry, and what they have in experience from hunting or combat is different to how the Guard works. Hivers may have more of an advantage here, given that the gangs they are recruited from probably already used guns and that these guys are more inclined to fighting as a group. Each regiment would still have only experience with their native environment, but I do believe the Munitorum would actually take this into consideration for deployment, unless they really need any sort of bodies somewhere fast.
That said, I also think the majority of Imperial worlds is far more peaceful than the setting may suggest on first glance. War and violence aren't everywhere. On a feudal world or an agri world or some civilized colony, there just won't be a lot of fighting, and what PDF there is will be the shiny toys of local nobility. Unless the Imperial governor condones locally limited squabbles between his subordinate lords where these units might gain experience (which is entirely possible but probably not the norm), you'll end up with a planetary defence force that has zero actual combat experience. Which is why it is quite okay that, at times, the IG is displayed as cannonfodder. It doesn't mean that all of the IG is, just that there is a big "quality span" between, say, a Cadian regiment and a freshly recruited formation of shiny Household Guard from farmworld Bob. This also serves to stress how good Cadians actually are, for given their outstanding reputation it seems obvious that the standard has to be much lower, else they wouldn't be seen as so remarkable.
At least that is how I came to see it.
There have been historical examples of "savages" beating "modern" armies, only because a group of people are more primitive doesn't mean they can't adapt, both tactically and technologically. It's the commissar's job to sort out indiscipline and they are very good at it, training is provided normally because the equipment that is provided is very easy to use and maintain and drill can be taught to anyone in a fairly short space of time.
I totally agree that a large percentage of Imperial worlds can go decades, sometimes centuries without being attacked by an invading army and many do prosper. However the idea that the PDF are rubbish is (generally) false. The majority of worlds are designated as "civilised", this is where most of the guard come from and a lot of these "civilised" worlds are not ruled by a single entity and inter nation, state, house, corporation and cartel violence is common, they also contend with pirate raids as well.
Cadians are good, so good in fact that many worlds have adopted their training, drill, equipment and strategies as their own.
Yarrickshad wrote:I'd say most are competent tacticians, not brilliant and the fluff supports that argument.
Which fluff, exactly? That's what I am interested in - I've read a lot of people talking like that, but none have so far supported it with any actual studio sources. I'm quite willing to adapt my perception of the setting, but not based on mere interpretation - as that is something I can provide for myself. The vast majority of Imperial commanders is not selected due to displaying a certain aptitude for command - as is the case on the Gateway World of Cadia - but simply due to bloodline, brutality or charisma (depending on the world/society). There isn't even a formal "Guard University" where these people could go to learn. In the case of many Hive regiments, the Imperial Guard basically picks up a gang leader from the street, pins a couple rank bars on his shoulders and hands him a copy of the Tactica Imperialis with the task to read it whilst they're in warp transit. Here, a regiment whose commander is recruited from the nobility is probably even better off, for despite that upstart's likely arrogance and thirst for glory, he will probably have at least devoted a certain amount of time to study the art of war years before being handed command.
Also, no waste of life is considered "unnecessary" in service to the God-Emperor of Mankind. Green of the Last Chancers had to learn this the hard way, whilst Chenkov still leads his armies. That is telling.
I very much agree that Commissars and Schola-educated NCOs or staff officers would be quite helpful to any noble thrust into command of a regiment, but this does not truly mean that said commander is open for advice. In the end, as long as he wins his battles, no one will care if he lost 10 or 10.000 men in the process. Such is life in the 41st Millennium.
As I was re-reading the 2E IG Codex for this thread I also found that the distance of 10.000 lightyears (the averade deployment distance for newly recruited Guard regiments) can be traversed "within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft". Added to this, however, come assembly in staging areas and the occasional stop at other Imperial worlds to take on additional supplies and munitions. "By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away. [...] If victory is not swift, the Departmento Munitorium will draw in regiments from beyond the normal 10 thousand light year range, including troops from worlds in the relatively peaceful Segmentae Solar and Pacificus."
So, yeah, warp travel in the setting as per GW doesn't take that long as some Black Library novels or other licensed products may suggest. A freshly raised regiment's shipboard training will be limited accordingly. That said, 75 days is probably sufficient time for basic training - especially given that most regiments will already sport a certain amount of experience from their time as PDF, depending on what equipment they used. Perhaps it would be more fitting to see IG basic training as some sort of "adjustment period". That said, the 5E 'dex also points out that actual fighting experience from regiments prior to being tithed is at a "modicum", and even this only applies to "many" and not all ... and includes formal training or even just instincts gained from the respective population's culture.
The same applies to their officers - three months to read up on and study the Tactica Imperialis isn't exactly a lot, though as pointed out above, most officers will have access to advice from individuals with more training or even actual combat experience. If they are willing to take it.
Here's also an in-character letter that came with the 3E Codex:
"Dear Sebastian,
Well, we're finally here. Zaro's World. From when I left the farm, it's been about three months, though it's hard to tell, what with travelling on a starship and everything. It took about two weeks to get the regiment mustered and then we had to wait another week after that for the Navy to arrive with the transports. That's when we all swore our oaths to the Almighty Emperor, to protect mankind and defeat our enemies. I don't know how many of us are in the regiment but it took two whole days to shuttle us up, with two hundred men to a shuttle, one every hour or so. Once we were on board, they split us up into training groups and gave out weapons and other kit. [...]"
@Lynata: Most BL novels concentrating on IG have relatively competent officers in charge, especially the protagonists). Tactics vary and are spread throughout the hierarchy, but it's not generally suggested that the IG is made up of useless buffoons.
Gaunts Ghost (First and Only): Even the ones that use the lives of their men careless actually tend to get the job done in the end, otherwise they wouldn't have been promoted at all.
IG Codex: The manner and character of officers is explored here, generally incompetent officers (this is the lower levels, from Major to Lt) can easily find their way into a position of command, but rarely last long. The enemy or the commissar see to that.
Gaunts Ghost (Necropolis): The IG tank commander displays a brilliant ability to co-oridnated his attacks which decimate the opposing armoured columns. A PDF armoured regiment elsewhere tasked with a similar option does manage to stop the enemy on their side as well, but only with a similar killl-death ratio.
Generally, new regiments suffer from what you've described (getting into command on merits other than ability) a fair bit, especially if their culture would encourage it. But combat experience swiftly changes this, one way or another.
There's not really much to go on from a Warmaster/General level of command, but in Gaunts Ghost Warmaster Slaydo was viewed as a stunning tactician, while his protege makes several crippling mistakes from the moment he takes the mantle (one such mistake resulting in the destruction of Tanith). The general of the 8th army though is viewed as competent enough, if struggling with a serious lack in resources.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Most BL novels concentrating on IG have relatively competent officers in charge, especially the protagonists). Tactics vary and are spread throughout the hierarchy, but it's not generally suggested that the IG is made up of useless buffoons.
Ah, that's what I thought. Black Library's individual author interpretation and artistic license again. Thanks for that clarification.
Emperors Faithful wrote:But combat experience swiftly changes this, one way or another.
This is one point where I do agree. The IG is a "make or break" army - though there are no doubt instances where incompetent officers remain in charge simply because it is them who hide in command bunkers whereas more idealistic peers die charging with their troops, the irony being that the former will absorb the latter's regiments' survivors into their own murderous formation.
It was the current codex where it states that its the elite of the pdf. Which implies they should be fully trained. Imo i see it as being equivilent to the national guard. Their not full guardsmen, but can be deployed into combat with little additional trainings. Which page 10 of the codex agrees with stateing that many regiments already have some experience, including formal military training.
As for leaders the codex states that some are drawn from military acadimies, some are nobles, some are the biggest and the toughest in the regiment, and some are promoted from the ranks. And in the pcs entry states that incompetent officers are quickly punished.
@lynata since you seem to not take bl books as canon i have only used the codex to simplify the arguement.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Imo i see it as being equivilent to the national guard. Their not full guardsmen, but can be deployed into combat with little additional trainings. Which page 10 of the codex agrees with stateing that many regiments already have some experience, including formal military training.
I agree on this being the standard. The latter is actually something I mentioned above, though "many" of course does not mean "all". Take note that the 5E Codex points out that not every Imperial world has an official military, some being defended only by tribal clans or hive gangs. Sure, this is experience as well (and may actually be quite valuable depending on where a regiment recruited from such populations will fight), but "thug life" is still quite different from an orderly military campaign.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As for leaders the codex states that some are drawn from military acadimies, some are nobles, some are the biggest and the toughest in the regiment, and some are promoted from the ranks.
This can actually be condensed in only two options. Either you're a noble, in which case you may have went to your planet's PDF military academy or not, or you're part of a regiment that was drafted from an equal chances society such as some feral tribe or a hive gang where "might makes right" or Cadia where everyone starts out as a Whiteshield and can work his way up to the top.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:And in the pcs entry states that incompetent officers are quickly punished.
Well, people think Chenkov is incompetent, yet he still leads his armies. Whereas Green does not. That's what I'm saying: The Imperium has a different understanding of what is incompetent and what is not. Waste of life is acceptable as long as victory is achieved. Penal Battalions actually have a quota for how many men they should loose as a minimum. If you take that hill, better make sure you're getting enough of your own men killed, else the General might think you're slacking!
I will say that the size and scope of the Imperial Guard prohibits sweeping absolutes. The IG codex itself says that Guard come in all forms, shapes, and sizes.
Remember that this is a dystopian future where it is a powerful fascist theocratic state that is ponderous and uncaring. death is common. progress is not.
I personally have read the Forge world books and regarded them as being irritating (the guard almost always appear as totally outclassed by whatever they are facing and millions die apparently needlessly. The level of incompetency is staggering at times, but anyone who has a good knowledge of our history knows that we as a species are so very capable of that.
On the other hand are the far more liberal doses of sympathy, tactical acumen, intelligence, and so forth that show up in lets say... dan abnett's books. The very titular character is a guard commander who was promoted by merit, survives with an elite relatively small unit and not only cares for his men, but is tactically able to pull off miracles. They pretty much take on ANYTHING and win. People like that arise from time to time in history as well.
I personally think that the guard are capable of swerving either way but are usually not brilliant, facing foes that outclass them pretty seriously, and they have very few advantages to multiply their force. They are in the middle of these two extremes most of the time.
Battle can be seen as an equation.
Attrition(sheer manpower) x force multipliers (manuever, technology, morale, terrain, ect.) = damage inflicted
The Imperium does not have the ability to give the vast majority of its men much if any force multipliers. So the commanders do the ONLY THING that leads to victory and the very survival of some of their men, their planets, themselves, and the imperium itself... they increase their manpower to the point where it will overcome any force multipliers the enemy may have.
IT IS NOT a matter of callousness towards their men.
IT IS NOT irresponsible.
IT IS NOT a fail tactic.
A good analogy is the USSR vs Germany. Germany kicked the USSR hard but the USSR ground the invaders down under sheer manpower and resolve. The Germans had far better weapons, experience, equipment, supplies, air support, training, generals, and momentum on their side. Go look at the casualty figures on the eastern front during WW2. The Germans lost around 4.3 million men. The USSR lost over 10 million. That is just the dead, not casualties. Roughly double those figures for full casualties. In many ways the soviets merely ground Germany into a pulp and then almost single handedly took down Nazi Germany.
As one who studies military history and strategy, it becomes clear that from a purely unemotional standpoint that this is the manner in which the Imperium does most of its business with respect to the IG.
Does this make it anymore dystopian? Perhaps. But it is still hell to serve in the guard and you are not one in millions, but one in billions if not trillions. Then you are lined up against CSMs, Tyranid Monstrosities, the souless horror of the necrons, the witches of the eldar and so forth. Then factor in the fact that noone will care if you die except perhaps your squadmates. You will never go home. You are threatened by commissars daily, are expected not to run from a carnifex, obey your possibly slowed officers without question, and one day die for this system and for the way of life of trillions of people living in pseudo slavery if not authentic bondage and under the most depressing circumstances conceivable.
My verbose thoughts.
Yarrickshad wrote:I'd say most are competent tacticians, not brilliant and the fluff supports that argument.
Which fluff, exactly? That's what I am interested in - I've read a lot of people talking like that, but none have so far supported it with any actual studio sources. I'm quite willing to adapt my perception of the setting, but not based on mere interpretation - as that is something I can provide for myself. The vast majority of Imperial commanders is not selected due to displaying a certain aptitude for command - as is the case on the Gateway World of Cadia - but simply due to bloodline, brutality or charisma (depending on the world/society). There isn't even a formal "Guard University" where these people could go to learn. In the case of many Hive regiments, the Imperial Guard basically picks up a gang leader from the street, pins a couple rank bars on his shoulders and hands him a copy of the Tactica Imperialis with the task to read it whilst they're in warp transit. Here, a regiment whose commander is recruited from the nobility is probably even better off, for despite that upstart's likely arrogance and thirst for glory, he will probably have at least devoted a certain amount of time to study the art of war years before being handed command.
Also, no waste of life is considered "unnecessary" in service to the God-Emperor of Mankind. Green of the Last Chancers had to learn this the hard way, whilst Chenkov still leads his armies. That is telling.
I very much agree that Commissars and Schola-educated NCOs or staff officers would be quite helpful to any noble thrust into command of a regiment, but this does not truly mean that said commander is open for advice. In the end, as long as he wins his battles, no one will care if he lost 10 or 10.000 men in the process. Such is life in the 41st Millennium.
As I was re-reading the 2E IG Codex for this thread I also found that the distance of 10.000 lightyears (the averade deployment distance for newly recruited Guard regiments) can be traversed "within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft". Added to this, however, come assembly in staging areas and the occasional stop at other Imperial worlds to take on additional supplies and munitions. "By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away. [...] If victory is not swift, the Departmento Munitorium will draw in regiments from beyond the normal 10 thousand light year range, including troops from worlds in the relatively peaceful Segmentae Solar and Pacificus."
So, yeah, warp travel in the setting as per GW doesn't take that long as some Black Library novels or other licensed products may suggest. A freshly raised regiment's shipboard training will be limited accordingly. That said, 75 days is probably sufficient time for basic training - especially given that most regiments will already sport a certain amount of experience from their time as PDF, depending on what equipment they used. Perhaps it would be more fitting to see IG basic training as some sort of "adjustment period". That said, the 5E 'dex also points out that actual fighting experience from regiments prior to being tithed is at a "modicum", and even this only applies to "many" and not all ... and includes formal training or even just instincts gained from the respective population's culture.
The same applies to their officers - three months to read up on and study the Tactica Imperialis isn't exactly a lot, though as pointed out above, most officers will have access to advice from individuals with more training or even actual combat experience. If they are willing to take it.
Here's also an in-character letter that came with the 3E Codex:
"Dear Sebastian,
Well, we're finally here. Zaro's World. From when I left the farm, it's been about three months, though it's hard to tell, what with travelling on a starship and everything. It took about two weeks to get the regiment mustered and then we had to wait another week after that for the Navy to arrive with the transports. That's when we all swore our oaths to the Almighty Emperor, to protect mankind and defeat our enemies. I don't know how many of us are in the regiment but it took two whole days to shuttle us up, with two hundred men to a shuttle, one every hour or so. Once we were on board, they split us up into training groups and gave out weapons and other kit. [...]"
BL novels show most commanders as competent such as the Cain and Gaunt series and considered fluff, especially Gaunt since it has found its way into the codex and timeline.
Lord General Militants are selected for active command based on bloodline, experience and service. Men/Women of this rank are given additional training to help him/her acclimatise to their new role.
Generals are selected by the munitorum from regimental officers judged to be most competent.
Colonels would usually have served in their planets PDF before being recruited into the Guard and as such the men's loyalty is to their colonel, regimental officers are "advised" not to throw the lives of their men away with impunity, those who sacrifice their soldiers needlessly tend to end up in the Penal Legions. That is from Lexicanum, I'll try and find a more solid source later on. However it is worth noting that in Necropolis an high ranking officer was executed, his incompetence costing the lives of many men. And in Straight Silver where a platoon commander was nearly executed for recklessness which saw his entire platoon annihilated.
Barthol Van Voytz, Lord General of the 9th army group had quite a few things to say about Aexe Cardinals use of trench warfare.
I can't argue with regards to warp travel but Guard training is exactly that, an adjustment period. Since most already have some experience or training the DM won't usually have to teach them much more other than what to expect when they reach their destination. Officers are briefed on expected enemy resistance, terrain and various other pieces of info and strategies. Soldiers will be given environmental, advanced weapons and equipment training.
@UrbanCowboy:
I have a particular dislike of the IA books (especially The Taros Campaign), I find that their information is wrong and contradictory.
Whilst your analogy is sound we also have to consider that the IG is a combined arms force, using many different regiments to counter any advantage an enemy might have and in some cases giving the Guard the upper hand. Infantry very rarely fight without armour, artillery and air support and it is these elements working together that is the true strength of the Imperial Guard, whilst large amounts of manpower is an advantage, it is in no way a war winner. We also have to remember that the USSR had a huge volume of man/woman power, reinforcement was immediate and, in the grand scheme of things, occurred in a small area. The Guard would most likely field the same amount of manpower the USSR had lost but deployed over an entire globe, perhaps across an entire system, without reinforcement for months or even years.
UrbanCowboy: Really, the two reasons Nazi Germany lost the east front were essentially:
1: The Nazis weren't prepared for the climate. 2: The Soviets were able to ramp up their production of weapons and tanks while the Nazis were proving they weren't prepared for dealing with the harsh winter climate.
The Soviets came back from a near-defeat due to these two reasons, with better tanks, better trained and equipped troops, and better tactics and pushed the Germans back to a final victory.
If you want to compare Guard to the Soviets, then PDF is the Soviets during their time spent trying to stall the German advance, and the Guard is the Soviets in their counter-assault which won the war.
Melissia wrote:UrbanCowboy: Really, the two reasons Nazi Germany lost the east front were essentially:
1: The Nazis weren't prepared for the climate.
2: The Soviets were able to ramp up their production of weapons and tanks while the Nazis were proving they weren't prepared for dealing with the harsh winter climate.
The Soviets came back from a near-defeat due to these two reasons, with better tanks, better trained and equipped troops, and better tactics and pushed the Germans back to a final victory.
If you want to compare Guard to the Soviets, then PDF is the Soviets during their time spent trying to stall the German advance, and the Guard is the Soviets in their counter-assault which won the war.
Who is comparing Soviets and Guard? They are nothing alike.
Ideals, lidership and some aspects yes, but generally no. Guardsman are PROFESSIONAL SOLDERS. Most Soviet solders in 1942 and 1943 were recruited and sent to the front immediately and they have live training ( like in that movie Stalingrad ), but those are the troops that push back Germans afterward because they were excellent solders for city fight.
And what Melissia already said: Soviet in 1941, 1942 and the beginning of 1943 would be equal to PDF, Soviets from late 1943, 1944 and 1945 would be equal to the Imperial Guardsman.
And the 2 main reason why Nazi Germany lost was:
1) They weren't prepared for winter at all. Their infantry wore light uniforms in a middle of December and their tanks were literary cracking because of the -50 Celsius.
2) On 1 German Tiger came 20 T-34. On 1 German solder came 5 Soviet, Soviets had more Airplanes and artillery. Now do the math...
Please don't devalue this thread with novice generalisations about the Eastern Fron of World War II... professional historians can't even agree on it, let alone we amateurs.
Brother Coa wrote:1) They weren't prepared for winter at all. Their infantry wore light uniforms in a middle of December and their tanks were literary cracking because of the -50 Celsius. 2) On 1 German Tiger came 20 T-34. On 1 German solder came 5 Soviet, Soviets had more Airplanes and artillery. Now do the math...
Oh you're saying you agree with me? Good, now get back on topic
If you think this here disagrees with what I said... you reaaaaly need to read it again closely. Then read what you posted. Then read what I posted, a third time.
Melissia wrote:Oh you're saying you agree with me? Good, now get back on topic
If you think this here disagrees with what I said... you reaaaaly need to read it again closely. Then read what you posted. Then read what I posted, a third time.
What
If I disagree with you I would told you that. I was merely taking your post and adding several more facts. Sorry for that
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Henners91 wrote:Please don't devalue this thread with novice generalisations about the Eastern Fron of World War II... professional historians can't even agree on it, let alone we amateurs.
Oh please... 5 year old kid would knew the outcome of the war if you showed him how many Germans were there and how many Soviets + British + Americans + Resistance movements etc...
I don't, but I think I can safely assume that even if the two of them were professionals, those of us who'd feel the need to chip in (and tbh, I'd probably be among them) wouldn't be.
I mean what are the odds that all those subscribed to this thread are historians, eh?
Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.
And people who are so impressed with the universe that they want to know a little more...
Liek Star Warr, you watched first movie and it was so good that you wanted to know what will happened next? What was the Clone Wars? How can Jedi do all that? How was Darth Vader came to be? What will happened next?...
Same is for Warhammer 40000... we are all curious what our beloved universe has to offer us ( beside C.S. Goto and Matt Ward anyway... ).
And beside all that I still have the time for my normal life...well no life and kids yet, but I am anyway to young for that...
Yarrickshad wrote:BL novels show most commanders as competent such as the Cain and Gaunt series and considered fluff, especially Gaunt since it has found its way into the codex and timeline.
And yet both Cain as well as Gaunt were Commissars who were raised in the Schola Progenium much like the Sisters Militant, having undergone advanced training and being prepared for life in the military throughout their entire childhood and youth. That is clearly not what you average IG officer freshly recruited out of a hive gang or a noble's palace is like. As I mentioned before, Schola graduates are the ones who would make perfect advisors for the officer class, yet they rarely attain a command on their own. It happens (Gaunt, Yarrick), but is very much not the norm, much less at the beginning of a newly recruited regiment's history.
Aside from that, Black Library is a topic for itself... Sadly, Mitchell in particular understood little of how the Schola (or the Sororitas) actually work, so Cain is not exactly a prime example anyways.
Melissia wrote:Oh you're saying you agree with me? Good, now get back on topic
If you think this here disagrees with what I said... you reaaaaly need to read it again closely. Then read what you posted. Then read what I posted, a third time.
What
If I disagree with you I would told you that. I was merely taking your post and adding several more facts. Sorry for that
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Henners91 wrote:Please don't devalue this thread with novice generalisations about the Eastern Fron of World War II... professional historians can't even agree on it, let alone we amateurs.
Oh please... 5 year old kid would knew the outcome of the war if you showed him how many Germans were there and how many Soviets + British + Americans + Resistance movements etc...
Well, that's one reason why 5 year old kids are usualy not employed as generals. In 1941 it looked, for almost everyone involved, as if the german offensive would be ultimately sucessful.
The Soviet army's dismal performance in the Winter War as well as the earlier purges lead many to ( in some cases rightfuly ) underestimate them while the possibility of a german victory
at the eastern AND the western front ( where britain fought almost alone ) was very real.
Even the avaiable reserves of manpower between the invading axis powers ( ca 70 million inhabitants for germany, 9 for hungary and about 20 millions for romania ) and the soviet union ( ca 170 million inhabitants in 1939 ), while significant, were not quite as large as it is sometimes thought of, especialy if we consider the loss of huge swathes of populated land in the first six months of the war.
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AustonT wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.
Exactly, Historians.
So true. History is the ultimate nerd sport.
Actualy it isn't. It is hard work with rather underwhelming chances for something like a decent income or at least a job after years of studies...meh.
Yarrickshad wrote:BL novels show most commanders as competent such as the Cain and Gaunt series and considered fluff, especially Gaunt since it has found its way into the codex and timeline.
And yet both Cain as well as Gaunt were Commissars who were raised in the Schola Progenium much like the Sisters Militant, having undergone advanced training and being prepared for life in the military throughout their entire childhood and youth. That is clearly not what you average IG officer freshly recruited out of a hive gang or a noble's palace is like. As I mentioned before, Schola graduates are the ones who would make perfect advisors for the officer class, yet they rarely attain a command on their own. It happens (Gaunt, Yarrick), but is very much not the norm, much less at the beginning of a newly recruited regiment's history.
Aside from that, Black Library is a topic for itself... Sadly, Mitchell in particular understood little of how the Schola (or the Sororitas) actually work, so Cain is not exactly a prime example anyways.
That particular sentence was actually about the real commanders in those series, not Cain and Gaunt themselves.
Anyway I found that source.
"Though individual regiments are normally commanded by their own officers (usually drawn from the nobility of their world) this is not always practical when dozens of regiments are mustered. In such cases, a higher level of command is provided by the general staff of the Departmento Munitorum. This staff is generally formed from the best of the officers in the tithed regiments, recommended by their previous service (or family ties in some cases) and they receive additional training to prepare them for the greater role of commanding armies."
p10 Munitorum Manual
Officers punished for incompetence:
"As all Guardsmen will be aware, the prime duty of the commissar is to preserve the fighting spirit and loyalty the the regiment... If the regiments officers are incompetent or lack courage the commissar will remove them by the sternest measures" p16 Munitorum Manual
And the second paragraph of the Platoon Command Squad entry of the latest codex ends with "incompetent individuals are responsible for wasting countless lives and such ineptitude is quickly punished".
One advantage I believe the Guard has as a whole is adaptability, it doesn't do it quick but it is far better at altering to strategic, operational and tactical extremes than any other race, couple that with their ability to fight anywhere and have regiments that excel in any given environment or specialise at a type of warfare is a real plus for the Guard.
History is the ultimate nerd SPORT. we become so entertained by it we demand that someone oath artistic inclination build miniature recreations of our favorite historical figures and thier armies and devise rules in which to play out our fantasies. Arguing is just a hobby, its an occupation if you can convince people to pay you to have your arguments printed.
Yarrickshad wrote:That particular sentence was actually about the real commanders in those series, not Cain and Gaunt themselves.
Ah! Misunderstood you then. Apologies!
The Munitorum Manual is a Black Library book as well, by the way. Again, look at Chenkov, he easily qualifies for "wasting countless lives", yet his victories render him a competent officer. It's just that nobody would call him that based on our contemporary modern perspective. Yet we should not project modern real life values onto the world of 40k, as the setting is notably more dystopian and the value of a single human life is completely different to our own conscience and high ideals.
From the Codex:
"So high is the attrition rate amongst the Tundra Wolves that they have been refounded more than a dozen times in recent decades. Each time, Chenkov and the few remaining survivors of the regiment journey to lead the newly raised unfortunates. Although unimaginative, Chenkov's tactics are doubtlessly effective. [...] Chenkov used his troops to clear the explosives by marching them across the minefields. [...] Chenkov's ruthless command style continues to win the Imperium many victories and though the cost is high, the price of failure is intolerable."
For the Imperium, an incompetent officer is one who looses his battles. It does not matter at all how many troops have to die to achieve a given goal, as long as it is achieved. It's a question of values. Note the difference in the following quote from the same Codex:
"Attempts by Company Commanders to call down close-ranged artillery fire can result in disastrous casualties amongst the Imperial Guard. Whilst the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable."
Yarrickshad wrote:One advantage I believe the Guard has as a whole is adaptability, it doesn't do it quick but it is far better at altering to strategic, operational and tactical extremes than any other race, couple that with their ability to fight anywhere and have regiments that excel in any given environment or specialise at a type of warfare is a real plus for the Guard.
Absolutely. I found this passage of the 2E Codex rather fitting and inspiring as well:
"If an Imperial world is attacked, its first recourse is to defend itself. Interplanetary ships, orbital defence fortresses and ground troops are maintained by each planetary Lord for this purpose. If the attack is impossible to contain, a psychic distress signal will be sent into the warp requesting armed support and as much information about the enemy as possible. Because of the uncertain nature of warp space and psychic communication, a message may take moments, hours, days or years to reach other worlds. This time-lag is not entirely constant or predictable, and a world close to the source of a message will not necessarily receive it before a world that is more distant. Nonetheless, sooner or later, the message will be picked up by an Astropath somewhere.
The first foces able to respond to a distress signal are usually spacecraft of the nearest fleet. Imperial warships can drive away attacking craft or support friendly ground forces. If the distress signal reaches a nearby Space Marine Chapter fortress a force of Space Marines can be sent as quickly as naval vessels. All Space Marine Chapters have their own fleets consisting of some of the fastest ships in the Imperium. Often, a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion, as long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marine Chapters are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts.
Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or the Space Marines to defeat. In such a case, mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against mankind."
So yes, it seems feasible to equip a small number of guardsmen with power armor (ah la storm troopers), but no, there aren't any published references to it happening.
Oh my, I can't believe I'm hearing this! Marines find it hard to get armour, and in the imperial truth shrouded eyes of a lowly guard, or other citizens, they are demi-gods. Most sets of PA that marines use are hard obtained and have passed through many Astartes hands. You would be lucky to get a shiny new set even if you wanted one. How can anybody even think of doing something like giving it to mortals! Even inquisitors find it hard to get their hands on PA! Even if it wasn't heretical, for a mortal, to use such a device. It would still be impossible for more than a few more powerful leaders to use it. Only legends like Yarrik or Creed could attain such a relic. There is a reason that not all inquisitors use PA.
zilegil wrote:Oh my, I can't believe I'm hearing this! Marines find it hard to get armour, and in the imperial truth shrouded eyes of a lowly guard, or other citizens, they are demi-gods. Most sets of PA that marines use are hard obtained and have passed through many Astartes hands. You would be lucky to get a shiny new set even if you wanted one. How can anybody even think of doing something like giving it to mortals! Even inquisitors find it hard to get their hands on PA! Even if it wasn't heretical, for a mortal, to use such a device. It would still be impossible for more than a few more powerful leaders to use it. Only legends like Yarrik or Creed could attain such a relic. There is a reason that not all inquisitors use PA.
Madness, utter madness I say!
Sisters of Battle are mortal
Though I always presumed that the only reason they have PA is because the Ecclesiarchy is powerful enough to requisition it... though that doesn't explain its unique look.
Henners91 wrote:Sisters of Battle are mortal Though I always presumed that the only reason they have PA is because the Ecclesiarchy is powerful enough to requisition it... though that doesn't explain its unique look.
Indeed, the Ecclesiarchy is a vast organization, accumulating unbelievable riches from the amassed tithes of a million worlds. That's easily enough to fund the production of a couple thousand suits of powered armour and other equipment, I suppose.
Zilegil raises an interesting point in that power armour, much like boltguns, may be mistakenly regarded as commonly available because it shows up so very often, especially in licensed products. Although I maintain that a governor could theoretically buy it (see Necromunda), it would take contacts and a maddening amount of resources to outfit an entire regiment of PDF with it - more than many single worlds could handle. And, as has been pointed out before, this regiment would soon find itself "tithed away" by the Munitorum, so that there's not much of an incentive for a noble to commission such equipment to begin with.
Henners91 wrote:Sisters of Battle are mortal Though I always presumed that the only reason they have PA is because the Ecclesiarchy is powerful enough to requisition it... though that doesn't explain its unique look.
Indeed, the Ecclesiarchy is a vast organization, accumulating unbelievable riches from the amassed tithes of a million worlds. That's easily enough to fund the production of a couple thousand suits of powered armour and other equipment, I suppose.
Zilegil raises an interesting point in that power armour, much like boltguns, may be mistakenly regarded as commonly available because it shows up so very often, especially in licensed products. Although I maintain that a governor could theoretically buy it (see Necromunda), it would take contacts and a maddening amount of resources to outfit an entire regiment of PDF with it - more than many single worlds could handle. And, as has been pointed out before, this regiment would soon find itself "tithed away" by the Munitorum, so that there's not much of an incentive for a noble to commission such equipment to begin with.
What do you mean about the look, though?
That it isn't just standard mkVII armour. It implies that it's been manufactured for the Ecclesiarchy. Although that's not so unbelievable, it does kind of make me wonder just how these suits have been produced in the first place on such a scale; I guess the production centres must just be incredibly dispersed given the size of the Ecclesiarchy's presence. So perhaps they take advantage of more facilities than anyone else can to produce their own purpose-built gear.
Henners91 wrote:That it isn't just standard mkVII armour. It implies that it's been manufactured for the Ecclesiarchy. Although that's not so unbelievable, it does kind of make me wonder just how these suits have been produced in the first place on such a scale; I guess the production centres must just be incredibly dispersed given the size of the Ecclesiarchy's presence. So perhaps they take advantage of more facilities than anyone else can to produce their own purpose-built gear.
Oh! Yes, supposedly the design goes back to the days of the Age of Apostasy and is a mixture of what the original San Leorian Daughters of the Emperor have worn intermingled with Vandire's personal preferences and incorporating the best technology the Imperium could provide. After the reformation, Sebastian Thor agreed with the Mechanicus on permanent loan for the machinery necessary to produce the armour and boltguns, which are to this day manufactured in the Ecclesiarchal forges on Ophelia VII. The design changed little over the millennia, though there are small differences that can be observed when comparing Dominica's armour (as worn by the Living Saint miniature) with the current version of the Angel-pattern.
I have heard of no other production center so far - but I would imagine those on Ophelia VII to be quite large and thus having sufficient production capabilities to churn out a couple hundred or even thousand suits of armour every year to be disseminated amongst the Orders Militant. There aren't that many Sisters around, but they are said to have a rather high attrition, their numbers fluctuating constantly. The need for a steady supply of basic wargear would be comparatively high as well.
Hrm, not sure I like that fluff so much... the idea of anyone being self-sufficient in the grimdark universe of 40k is rather perturbing to me.
I'll just have to sate myself by imagining that most of the power armour is repaired from that recovered from the field and that it would take hundreds of years to equip the Sisters with armour solely from Ophelia VII...
Henners91 wrote:Hrm, not sure I like that fluff so much... the idea of anyone being self-sufficient in the grimdark universe of 40k is rather perturbing to me.
This applies to the Space Marines as well. In fact, those are way more independent - the Sisters at least still rely on the Mechanicus for more esoteric wargear, on the Imperial Navy to provide escorts for their transports, and of course on the Ministorum to pay the bills and send new recruits from the Schola. Given their comparatively small numbers, you could even say they also rely on the support of Frateris Militia and the Imperial Guard for larger campaigns.
As to what they do with armour recovered from the field, there is no information, and personally I am split over the issue. On one hand it would make sense to recover, repair and reassemble damaged suits from the field to pass them on to the next generation, on the other it would also seem somewhat fitting if the Sisters would bury their dead in it like it was done with Alicia (minus backpack and helmet). Financially, this would be an enormous waste of money (and rather grimdark in that it would be a stark contrast against the malnourished peasantry) - but neither they nor the Ministorum are very much experienced with keeping a tight budget. When you grow up never having to worry about where your next meal comes from and everything is paid for out of the coffers of the invisible masses of a million faraway worlds, I suppose you'd never really develop an appreciation of money. It would also fit to the many ranks of power armoured skeletons of long-dead heroes that are occasionally shown decorating various pillars in images depicting the Imperial Palace (although those skeletons would likely belong to the Space Marines of course).
Given the lack of info this is very much a subject of personal interpretation, though. I am somewhat undecided myself, as I could see either option as viable, with both offering some interesting aspects. Perhaps it even is a mixture of both, depending on the individual convent or even how respected the martyr was.
Though I always presumed that the only reason they have PA is because the Ecclesiarchy is powerful enough to requisition it... though that doesn't explain its unique look.
They are mortal, that is the very reason why they look so different. One of the reasons why guardsmen can't wear PA too. Sorritas armour is a lot lighter than normal MK 8 power armour. Also guardsmen can't interface with the armour as he has not had the genetic enhancement of the black carapace. That is another reason guardsmen can't wear armour. It takes a lot of modification to the armour to make it so a mortal can wear such a garb.
Anyway the Sorritas have a large funding, as Lynata has already put, and work for the inquisition. The inquisition practically created imperial truth and therefore heresy. They choose what is heresy and what is not.
It reminds me of how the pope announced in the war that it was not sin to make war on the sabbath day, that you can eat meat on a friday, etc.
zilegil wrote:Sororitas armour is a lot lighter than normal MK 8 power armour.
Only because Sisters themselves are smaller.
You really don't understand the nature of 40k power armor if you think it requires a direct mental link-up to work.
Black Carapace is completely and utterly unnecessary for using power armor.
It is a BONUS, not a necessary item. And it's not the only way to have a direct mental link-up, either, it's merely the way that Space Marines use. The method the Mechanicus uses (mind-impulse units) is arguably actually better. But even still, no mental link-up, biological or technological, is necessary to use power armor. It just helps you use power armor better than without.
zilegil wrote:Sororitas armour is a lot lighter than normal MK 8 power armour.
Only because Sisters themselves are smaller.
And, of course, because it does miss out on a lot of "gadgets" that make the Marine variant different. The Sororitas specialize on short duration rapid strikes that are finished within hours or rely on established supply lines for longer campaigns, whereas the Marines have no problem with operating behind enemy lines for days or even weeks.
In spite of what some licensed material such as the FFG books want to make people believe, the armour protection of both Astartes and Sororitas is actually equal - it's the additional tools that would give the Marines an additional edge (depending on circumstances) where the Sisters are missing out. Advanced life support, greater strength enhancement, waste recycler, etc. For sure, that stuff takes up both room and weight as well.
I meant lighter in weight, not armour. The fact that Sorritas are smaller was what I was saying. And is one of the reasons that guard can't just 'put on' astartes armour as has been put in a post a while back. I was just explaining why power armour the Sorritas use has such a 'unique look' as Hanners was asking. As I said it takes a lot of tinkering for a normal sized human to don such a garb.
Sorritas don't have black carapace? Oh right they don't. My mistake. I had not read the lexicanum article for a long while.
Sororitas power armor, to my knowledge, requires no mental link-up to be used. If it does, it's likely a simple cerebral plug (implant at the base of the skull that converts electrical signals to brain signals and vice versa) or similar device-- certainly it requires no MIU, mechanicus implants, or black carapace like dragonskin (techpriest power armor) or astartes armor.
, obviously they don't, I'm sure they would care about such things as morale and equipment etc as this affects his soldiers' performance. However as I said using your men intelligently is what they truly care about because they only have a finite amount of manpower at their disposal. You can't complete your objective if all your men are dead. Chenkov is a rather rare sort of commander, he is successful because he has a colossal amount of manpower under his command, a luxury very few officers of his rank have, over 120,000 men compared to your average 4 to 10,000.
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