wich codex do you guys think has the worst fluff? I think Space Wolves have horrible fluff....

I really, really wanted to like the Grey Knights.

Since I haven't read the GK fluff yet, I'm going to go with Blood Angles. Just so much face palm. Ward took them so far past awesome that they circled around to crap.

From what I have been reading recently whatever the latest version of "Your" Codex is out

I voted Tyranids, but it's really a three way tie between bugs, traitors, and spacedrow.

All of the 5E marine books are...atrocious when it comes to fluff. It's hard to pick one. Codex: Space Marines has its massive Ultramarines fanwank where all marines wish to be Ultramarines and the Ultramarines are of course the Best Marines ever. Blood Angels have their repeated gratuitous BloodybloodSanguineBlood stuff and some rather derpy fluff. Grey Knights of course have the Bloodtide and Draigo, neither of which really went over well with most readers. Space Wolves however I feel edge out the rest. It's like they have the worst of all worlds. Over-use of tired cliches and naming conventions, awful mary-sue and often contradictory fluff, and the whole thing just comes off as awful.


Tyranids weren't great, but they were passable. The IG fluff was ok, if not great, and the DE book was stellar.

Grey Knights. All the way.

Well blood angels fell in love and had cyber sex with Necrons so they have the worst.

People really putting Sisters of Battle? If you meant he old original one (that was the last pure SoB codex after all...) I found the whole Age of Apostasy thing fascinating and one of my favorite pieces of fluff.

Anyway I put GK, simply boring. Every codex makes its army seem the best ever but Ward took it too far and with bland fluff to match.

It's telling that the top 3 in this poll are BA/Space Wolves/GK though. GW has a problem with dedicating whole codex's to individual chapters it seems.

Anpu42 wrote:From what I have been reading recently whatever the latest version of "Your" Codex is out

This post is a good post.

The Space Marines codex has fine fluff. Honestly, it's mostly good. Yeah, there's too much Ultramarines wankery, but whatever, the rest is fine. The Blood Angels fluff is mostly fine, but the whole bit about teaming up with Necrons is really dumb. I've read the codex and didn't find anything else memorably bad. I actually liked all the "end is nigh" stuff. Black Templars has cool fluff, Space Wolves have very fitting fluff that reads like folk legends. Imperial Guard fluff is solid but not too memorable, Orks are fantastic, Dark Eldar is awesome, Eldar is good too. Basically Phil Kelly = great. The Tyranids codex doesn't have anything too memorable, Tau don't have too much fluff to speak of, nor do Necrons. Grey Knights have some okay fluff but a few really awful moments stand out and the Internet latches on to those. Chaos Space Marines have fine fluff too, but people generally brand everything about that codex as horrible because the rules aren't what they could be.

The Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines codices are two of the more boring reads I can recall.

But the Space Wolves codex is offensively bad to me.

Oh Jesus... the fething Grey Knights. That Codex is an abomination.


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Anpu42 wrote:From what I have been reading recently whatever the latest version of "Your" Codex is out

That only really applies to Sisters players, who pretty much hate everything they've given (models, Codices, special rules, etc.). In some respects you can't blame them, but it does begin to grate. Besides, this is a thread about a Codex's fluff, not its complete content.

After the Grey Knight Codex the 'Chaos' Codex has arguably one of the worst lists (flavourless, boring, devoid of anything interesting no matter how competitive it is), but it's fluff isn't working.

I love Norse mythology, so it leads me to like the Space Wolves fluff (just not wild hair in power armor). I have to say, Ward's butchery of fluff makes my decision for me. If I could go with all of his fluff, I'd pick all of it. However, I'll just click his newest pile of crap. I wanted to love the GKs. I did. But I can't stand the garbage. I even got into a flame war with somebody defending Ward's writing, and he told me to look at the Grey Knights codex as a source of Mat's stellar fluff writing

You can sum up most of the GK codex pretty easily.

1) Daemonic invasion happens on planet X
2) GK shows up and kick their ass
3) Exterminatus and kill/memory wipe the survivors

Cruddace basically rewrote over a decade of good fluff for the Tyranids. Whether he did it because he didn't know anything about them, or because he didn't like it and wanted to redo them for himself I have no idea, but the fluff he wrote isn't the Tyranids I like.

Not to mention the need to give them a 'face' with the Swarmlord, which was completely unnecessary and again, ruins the fluff.

He also managed to write a pretty terrible codex outside of the fluff, but that's not the point of the thread.

Well, Old One Eye and the Red Terror (I think that's what it was called) already existed in 3rd, so the precedent for Tyranids with a face, so to speak, was already there. The only thing I really remember about the fluff is that the Nids lose in most of the battles.

-Loki- wrote:Cruddace basically rewrote over a decade of good fluff for the Tyranids. Whether he did it because he didn't know anything about them, or because he didn't like it and wanted to redo them for himself I have no idea, but the fluff he wrote isn't the Tyranids I like.

Not to mention the need to give them a 'face' with the Swarmlord, which was completely unnecessary and again, ruins the fluff.

He also managed to write a pretty terrible codex outside of the fluff, but that's not the point of the thread.

What exactly was so horrible about it?

I'm asking because I have a friend who says similar, but he doesn't really give me reasons for it, and I have only read the 5e codex.

If you don't mind answering but don't want to crowd the thread, a PM would suffice. Would be much appreciated.

-Loki- wrote:Not to mention the need to give them a 'face' with the Swarmlord, which was completely unnecessary and again, ruins the fluff.

You know, I have pretty much the same opinion as you here. Generally speaking Tyranids shouldn't have 'Special Characters' - they can have one-off creatures that are specific adaptations for a specific battle or obstacle (the Red Terror is a good example of that), but actual individuals, no, that's something that shouldn't exist.

However, there is something in The Achilus Assault (a new book for Deathwatch that's coming out in a few weeks) that actually covers this. I can't tell you what it is until the book comes out, but let's just say it's very interesting and changed my point of view on the whole Swarmlord thing.

In the very near future, Necrons.

You made a typo *Black Templasrs* only notice it because I play them and I do it all the time

Necrons, by far. Their fluff is poorly designed and uninspired and doesn't portray them as scary at all.

Ward's fluff has of course some weak moments. SM codex is OK save for couple of Ultramarine-fanboi moments but it's not too bad. BA codex is weird, it actually makes them less interesting than the old PDF codex did. They're supposed to be chapter on decline, but they seem to be doing great: badass characters, super vehicles, huge amount of all kinds of toys other chapters either don't have or have only few.

GK codex is OK save for the Draigo fluff. I have actually no bone with Bloodtide: if anything, the passage makes great deal of sense and sounds something Inquisition would do.

Grey Knights definitively...

Bloodtide...
Draigo...
Surviving Orbital Bombardments...
Planet Hiding...
Greater Daemon blowing...

etc..........





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sirrah wrote:In the very near future, Necrons.

Don't forget he is doing Black Templars to.
Emperor show mercy on them...

Draigo. Grey Knight fluff is fine, but this planet attacking fool is not

There needs to be an optioj for "Other or All of them"

Tau.

Soooo much Plot armor it makes Space marines feel inferior




and for those who said GKs, look up Bloodtide on Lexicanum BEFORE you bring out the GK hate.

Harriticus wrote:People really putting Sisters of Battle?

It depends if you mean 'worst' as in poorly written, or 'worst' as in lacking in quantity. In terms of the latter, Codex: Sisters of Battle's two pages of fluff probably beats all else for sheer audacity in idleness on the part of the author.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Besides, this is a thread about a Codex's fluff, not its complete content.

Indeed. And actually, some of the new Sisters stuff in lore is an improvement over the previous codex. It's the rules most people hate.

This has got to be the easiest opinion poll ever

GK... Wardisms at their worst

Me:

leans back, looks at ork codex, is happy

Grey Templar wrote:Tau.

Soooo much Plot armor it makes Space marines feel inferior

I'm sure Eldar used to say same about humans...

Grey knights have some of the worst fluff I've ever read. Hands down.

Melissia wrote:Indeed. And actually, some of the new Sisters stuff in lore is an improvement over the previous codex.

One tiny bit which annoys me: Celestine. She is apparently a "divine warrior who appears in times of great need". Making her like, what, fourth such character in 5th Edition books? I realize it's a big Imperium and you need many divine warrios with miraculous intervention powers to handle all dire situations, but sheesh...

Backfire wrote:

Melissia wrote:Indeed. And actually, some of the new Sisters stuff in lore is an improvement over the previous codex.

One tiny bit which annoys me: Celestine. She is apparently a "divine warrior who appears in times of great need". Making her like, what, fourth such character in 5th Edition books? I realize it's a big Imperium and you need many divine warrios with miraculous intervention powers to handle all dire situations, but sheesh...

The Imperium is a big place. It's hard to appear in every time of great need. Especially if two times of great needs happen at the same time in totally different Segmentiums.

Grey Knights hand down. Why? Well, there was that one time where the Knights butchered the Sisters of Battle. Loyal sisters, mind you, not traitors. Why? To protect themselves from demonic corruption...even though it's been stated many times that the Grey Knights are absolutely demon proof.

And for some reason the Grey Knights are now absolutely ok with demon weapons...even though they all hate demons.

So much fail.

Why don't Tyranids have monster which appears, praiseth the Hive Mind, just as the evil Space Marines are about to wipe out the last remnants of Hive Fleet and saves the hapless species from extinction? Or Orks? Really, I'd love if Snikrots' fluff went like "And just as the Ultramarines Captain was about to land a killing blow on Ghazghkull and forever crush the Orkish dreams of conquering Armageddon, Boss Snikrot appeared seemingly out of nowhere and sank Mork's Teeth between ribs of Space Marine, turning the tide of battle and rallying the Orks for one final Waaagh! to stomp their enemies for good."

I wish their was an option for anything written by matt ward. I really hated the fanboi and mary sue of the ultramarines codex... Er... I mean space marines codex. The blood angles wasnt too bad, probualy his best one. But gray knights took the cake. I hated that codex.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Grey Knights hand down. Why? Well, there was that one time where the Knights butchered the Sisters of Battle. Loyal sisters, mind you, not traitors. Why?

Because the Sisters were tainted beyond redemption or saving. Or did you not actually read the story, and are just going off what you've heard on the interwebs?

To protect themselves from demonic corruption...even though it's been stated many times that the Grey Knights are absolutely demon proof.

Being Daemon proof is not being proof against the powers that Daemons wield. Otherwise, you'd have no Grey Knights--ever--dying to anything but Daemonic claws or weapons. The Grey Knights used "sacred oils and unguents" in addition with the blood of the faithful Sisters to create a further layer of protection against a Daemon that was powerful enough to corrupt an entire freaking Shrineworld.

And for some reason the Grey Knights are now absolutely ok with demon weapons...even though they all hate demons.
So much fail.

You mean a really obvious reason, which actually is in the Codex? It's a weapon that they are safeguarding against it falling into enemy hands.

I can understand locking a deamon weapon away to safe guard it, but actually using it is heretical. Or at best radical.

Grey Knights.

I used to play them, back when they were fluff-awesome fearless badasses that would take on bloodthirsters one one one even though there was no hope of them beating them.

No other codex fluff has made me check it through a dozen times to make sure i didn't have a sudden breakdown of my reading skills. That pile of steaming ward-turds causes cognitive dissonance a parsec across :(

If this is a shining example of his fluff-writing skills i'm dreading the new Codex Necrons fluff.

If they're actively freeing the Daemon and using it to its full potential?
You'd be right.

But they're not doing that. They're still gaining a benefit, from the Daemon being bound to them just enough that it has to share its power--which weakens the Daemon enough so that it's not going to be a danger if the wielder falls. The blade is also bound and layered in wards to prevent the Daemon from influencing outside events.

I said Grey Knights. The Blood-tide thing is pretty bad, but the Draigo stuff is even worse, IMO. I don't hate Matt Ward, but I do think he is easily, without question, the weakest fluff writer GW has ever had.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Grey Knights hand down. Why? Well, there was that one time where the Knights butchered the Sisters of Battle. Loyal sisters, mind you, not traitors. Why? To protect themselves from demonic corruption...even though it's been stated many times that the Grey Knights are absolutely demon proof.

They are "daemon proof" because they have willpower and resolve to commit whatever acts it takes to avoid being corrupted or tempted. Not because they have some sort of "Mythi-Power(tm)" which makes them "daemon proof". And really, the Bloodtide incident was probably one of the LEAST collateral damage-producing actions Grey Knights or Inquisition have undertaken.

Kanluwen wrote:Because the Sisters were tainted beyond redemption or saving......... in addition with the blood of the faithful Sisters[/b].

How can you give two conflicting versions of the event in the same post?

The second one is the correct one though, the Sisters' blood was described as "innocent", they were not tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Because the Sisters were tainted beyond redemption or saving......... in addition with the blood of the faithful Sisters[/b].

How can you give two conflicting versions of the event in the same post?

The second one is the correct one though, the Sisters' blood was described as "innocent", they were not tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Bloodtide happened because Ward hate Sisters...he have some blood-fetish toward them.

Was browsing through some of the old 2nd codexs and Codex Imperialis.
One wonders sometimes where it all went wrong.

Dont get me wrong some of the later fluff is great, moves the timeline along and has some enjoyable angles and plot pieces (despite the hate I quite enjoyed the newer Nid fluff) but its so overblown at times. Every army fluff-wise these days is "the best one", theres no mystery or balance or potential anymore.

We'll whoop yer arse until the next codex comes along. Ho hum.

Void__Dragon wrote:The second one is the correct one though, the Sisters' blood was described as "innocent", they were not tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Yeah, GW needed a victim, and Sisters are their favorite victim.

Melissia wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:The second one is the correct one though, the Sisters' blood was described as "innocent", they were not tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Yeah, GW needed a victim, and Sisters are their favorite victim.

Damn GW , they should all burn in the righteous flame of the Ecclesiarchy.

Backfire wrote:Necrons, by far. Their fluff is poorly designed and uninspired and doesn't portray them as scary at all.

LOLWUT?

You've smoked some bad granola there hippy. The current Necron codex has some of the best background currently in 40k with a wonderful objective narration that covers millions of years and many many events that the Imperium has no knowledge of. This is unlike other Codexes where everything is written from an Imperial perspective. As for not scary, seriously read the Adept Corteswain story on page 58-59. That is an example of good codex writing. To think that Ward can potentially undo all of this does not thrill me one bit.

I said Tyranids because, well, it's just a load of om nom nom

I know that's all they do, but I didn't feel particulalry enlightened to the race after I read it. No "Wow, that was unexpected" moments. I can't say I read the whole thing that well, but that was my impression.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Because the Sisters were tainted beyond redemption or saving......... in addition with the blood of the faithful Sisters[/b].

How can you give two conflicting versions of the event in the same post?

The second one is the correct one though, the Sisters' blood was described as "innocent", they were not tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Because they're not two conflicting versions of the event?

You can be tainted but not be corrupted.
Nurgle, as an example, delights in his followers spreading plagues to turn the faithful to his light for surviving his "Gifts". The corpses of the plagueslain are referred to by the Imperium as 'tainted'.
Those who survive these plagues and contagions have given themselves over to Nurgle. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you contract a Nurgle delivered plague, you're not surviving. Those who survive are referred to as "corrupted".

Corruption is voluntary. Being exposed to a taint is not.

Grimtuff wrote:

Backfire wrote:Necrons, by far. Their fluff is poorly designed and uninspired and doesn't portray them as scary at all.

LOLWUT?

You've smoked some bad granola there hippy. The current Necron codex has some of the best background currently in 40k with a wonderful objective narration that covers millions of years and many many events that the Imperium has no knowledge of. This is unlike other Codexes where everything is written from an Imperial perspective. As for not scary, seriously read the Adept Corteswain story on page 58-59. That is an example of good codex writing. To think that Ward can potentially undo all of this does not thrill me one bit.

It's awful. The whole background story of the Necrons is told to far too great detail, leaving pretty much no mystery about the race (compare that to, say, Tyranids, or even Tau). And the story is very uninspired, like someone came up with it in 5 minutes, some silly contrived way to explain in ass-backwards fashion how this metal skeleton race ended up in their skeletons. The C'Tan have no history behind them, they were just stumbled upon and for some reason they wanted to destroy everything. Most of the story pieces are cliched crap, the one you mentioned is almost only one even remotely passable. Yes, it's easily the worst codex in existence and goes long way explaining why Necrons are so unpopular. I'm looking forward to their upcoming codex, as it HAS TO be more interesting.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Grey Knights hand down. Why? Well, there was that one time where the Knights butchered the Sisters of Battle. Loyal sisters, mind you, not traitors. Why? To protect themselves from demonic corruption...even though it's been stated many times that the Grey Knights are absolutely demon proof.

And for some reason the Grey Knights are now absolutely ok with demon weapons...even though they all hate demons.

So much fail.

You, and every other hater out there, need to read this,

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bloodtide


This explains alot of things and actually makes that incident completely acceptable.

Covering yourself in blood would actually be a reasonable method of protecting yourself.

Kanluwen wrote:Because they're not two conflicting versions of the event?

You can be tainted but not be corrupted.
Nurgle, as an example, delights in his followers spreading plagues to turn the faithful to his light for surviving his "Gifts". The corpses of the plagueslain are referred to by the Imperium as 'tainted'.
Those who survive these plagues and contagions have given themselves over to Nurgle. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you contract a Nurgle delivered plague, you're not surviving. Those who survive are referred to as "corrupted".

Corruption is voluntary. Being exposed to a taint is not.

Then please do us a favor and point out where the codex says they were tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Backfire wrote:It's awful. The whole background story of the Necrons is told to far too great detail, leaving pretty much no mystery about the race (compare that to, say, Tyranids, or even Tau). And the story is very uninspired, like someone came up with it in 5 minutes, some silly contrived way to explain in ass-backwards fashion how this metal skeleton race ended up in their skeletons. The C'Tan have no history behind them, they were just stumbled upon and for some reason they wanted to destroy everything. Most of the story pieces are cliched crap, the one you mentioned is almost only one even remotely passable. Yes, it's easily the worst codex in existence and goes long way explaining why Necrons are so unpopular. I'm looking forward to their upcoming codex, as it HAS TO be more interesting.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Take this as the humor that is suposed to be, I made in response to everyone's responces

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Because they're not two conflicting versions of the event?

You can be tainted but not be corrupted.
Nurgle, as an example, delights in his followers spreading plagues to turn the faithful to his light for surviving his "Gifts". The corpses of the plagueslain are referred to by the Imperium as 'tainted'.
Those who survive these plagues and contagions have given themselves over to Nurgle. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you contract a Nurgle delivered plague, you're not surviving. Those who survive are referred to as "corrupted".

Corruption is voluntary. Being exposed to a taint is not.

Then please do us a favor and point out where the codex says they were tainted beyond redemption or saving.

Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

This isn't difficult to understand, and it really requires no further explanation. The Grey Knights are not the Good Guys that people believe them to be, they are there to make the hard choices. Consigning a world to oblivion to prevent a Daemonic infestation or taint from spreading to other worlds is necessary, and stopping an incursion of an entity as powerful as the one responsible for the Bloodtide(which if it corrupted an entire Shrineworld from within a hexagrammically warded containment vessel as it is just waking up from being contained, is incredibly powerful) means that there will be no one left alive. Any exposure to that kind of entity and the taint associated with it demands a complete extermination of any and everyone who came into contact with it.

Kanluwen wrote:Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

This isn't difficult to understand, and it really requires no further explanation. The Grey Knights are not the Good Guys that people believe them to be, they are there to make the hard choices. Consigning a world to oblivion to prevent a Daemonic infestation or taint from spreading to other worlds is necessary, and stopping an incursion of an entity as powerful as the one responsible for the Bloodtide(which if it corrupted an entire Shrineworld from within a hexagrammically warded containment vessel as it is just waking up from being contained, is incredibly powerful) means that there will be no one left alive. Any exposure to that kind of entity and the taint associated with it demands a complete extermination of any and everyone who came into contact with it.

You're not really getting my point here.

They weren't tainted, at all. That's actually kind of the point behind why they were slaughtered. Hence why their blood served as a talisman of purity. If they were tainted, their blood would be unsuitable, yet it is described as "innocent."

I don't fault the Grey Knights for slaughtering the Sisters, if it is necessary, then they should be slaughtered with as much impunity as anyone else.

But don't make excuses for the Grey Knights that don't exist. They butchered untainted, Loyalist Sisters of Battle to protect themselves, period.

I think a full tie with BA and GK. I put Wolves at a very close second.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

This isn't difficult to understand, and it really requires no further explanation. The Grey Knights are not the Good Guys that people believe them to be, they are there to make the hard choices. Consigning a world to oblivion to prevent a Daemonic infestation or taint from spreading to other worlds is necessary, and stopping an incursion of an entity as powerful as the one responsible for the Bloodtide(which if it corrupted an entire Shrineworld from within a hexagrammically warded containment vessel as it is just waking up from being contained, is incredibly powerful) means that there will be no one left alive. Any exposure to that kind of entity and the taint associated with it demands a complete extermination of any and everyone who came into contact with it.

You're not really getting my point here.

Nor are you apparently getting mine(or Forge World's, or Mat Ward's). This is not the first time such a thing has happened with the Ordo Malleus and Sisters of Battle.

They weren't tainted, at all. That's actually kind of the point behind why they were slaughtered. Hence why their blood served as a talisman of purity. If they were tainted, their blood would be unsuitable, yet it is described as "innocent."

No, they weren't corrupted. There's a difference. They were exposed to a taint, but remained uncorrupted. This is what happened in Vraks as well, where surviving Sisters of the Order stationed on Vraks who had been the Cardinal's bodyguard were executed by the Ordo Malleus partially because of the fact that these Sisters were held prisoner inside the Cardinal's citadel(the other part is because the Ordo Malleus wanted to feth with the Ordo Hereticus for screwing with the campaign and pulling politics to ensure that the Ordo Malleus did not receive the full measure of a Krieg siege army that they were to be afforded).

I don't fault the Grey Knights for slaughtering the Sisters, if it is necessary, then they should be slaughtered with as much impunity as anyone else.

But don't make excuses for the Grey Knights that don't exist. They butchered untainted, Loyalist Sisters of Battle to protect themselves, period.

Taint != Corruption.

If you fall to a taint, you're corrupted.

Kanluwen wrote:Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

That is definitely untrue.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

That is definitely untrue.

Not really. When we're talking about a Daemon that causes a planetary taint, before it even becomes fully awakened to its powers--any taint is beyond redemption.

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

That is definitely untrue.

Not really. When we're talking about a Daemon that causes a planetary taint, before it even becomes fully awakened to its powers--any taint is beyond redemption.

The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Kanluwen wrote:Nor are you apparently getting mine(or Forge World's, or Mat Ward's). This is not the first time such a thing has happened with the Ordo Malleus and Sisters of Battle.

No, they weren't corrupted. There's a difference. They were exposed to a taint, but remained uncorrupted. This is what happened in Vraks as well, where surviving Sisters of the Order stationed on Vraks who had been the Cardinal's bodyguard were executed by the Ordo Malleus partially because of the fact that these Sisters were held prisoner inside the Cardinal's citadel(the other part is because the Ordo Malleus wanted to feth with the Ordo Hereticus for screwing with the campaign and pulling politics to ensure that the Ordo Malleus did not receive the full measure of a Krieg siege army that they were to be afforded).

Taint != Corruption.

If you fall to a taint, you're corrupted.

You're applying a motive to their slaughter that doesn't exist.

They were killed because their purity would protect the Grey Knights from the Bloodtide, that is the only motive given.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Any kind of taint is beyond redemption or saving.

That is definitely untrue.

Not really. When we're talking about a Daemon that causes a planetary taint, before it even becomes fully awakened to its powers--any taint is beyond redemption.

The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Not really, not when it comes to a very powerful one. When it reaches those kinds of taints, they have two options. Remove the source of the taint and/or destroy those who have been exposed to the taint.

Void__Dragon wrote:You're applying a motive to their slaughter that doesn't exist.

They were killed because their purity would protect the Grey Knights from the Bloodtide, that is the only motive given.

No, I'm really not applying a motive to their slaughter that doesn't exist. You're applying some ridiculous level of "purity" that is absurd. An individual can be tainted but remain pure.

Why is it that we have to have this freaking conversation every time a "worst fluff in a Codex" thread? Is it really that complex of an idea?

Kanluwen wrote:No, I'm really not applying a motive to their slaughter that doesn't exist. You're applying some ridiculous level of "purity" that is absurd. An individual can be tainted but remain pure.

Why is it that we have to have this freaking conversation every time a "worst fluff in a Codex" thread? Is it really that complex of an idea?

Considering their purity was what was credited with protecting the Grey Knights from the Bloodtide, well, yeah.

Not once is it said "The Grey Knights had no choice but to kill the Sisters because they were tainted," they were butchered because they needed to use their blood as a talisman of purity.

The motive you are describing is not stated once when referring to the Bloodtide incident.

I don't understand this discussion anymore, whole "tainted vs corrupted" thing. Must be a language barrier?

Definitely the Grey Knight book. It's a shame that their old fluff used to be so good too. Sure, there wasn't much of it, but you didn't need much. They were inherently mysterious while still being obviously awesome, and the inquisitional fluff that came with it helped to add both background and atmosphere.

The new fluff not only betrays most of the old fluff (Grey Knights are supposed to be Puritan!), but is just so badly done. Wankery aside, there's no sense of mystery or atmosphere behind them. They're just awesome and righteous to an incredibly annoying degree.

They went from being "The secret elite military branch of the Ordo Malleus" to "Grey better marines who aren't afraid of a little friendly fire, but it's okay because they're supposed to be a secret and awesome and cool."

In the case of the Grey Knights, less is a lot more. Matt Ward never figured this out.

Grey Knights with out a doubt they went from Awesome Grey Knights to Fail Knights when the codex came up.
The Grey Knights new fluff betrays the original feeling of them being saviors of humanity, that won't exterminate humanity on their own. If anything they are over using the we must stay secret.

Everyone eject! Arguing with Kan about anything fluff related is more pointless than arguing with Kan about GW's business practices.

He will not back down, no matter how many people (and how many votes) stand against his view. It is a complete waste of your time.

I'll just end this post with this though:

Calm down.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Everyone eject! Arguing with Kan about anything fluff related is more pointless than arguing with Kan about GW's business practices.

He will not back down, no matter how many people (and how many votes) stand against his view. It is a complete waste of your time.

I'll just end this post with this though:

This made me laugh so hard XD

Of course I won't back down. They are my views.
It's the same with my stance on the death penalty and homosexual marriages. People can stand against me as much as they want, it doesn't change my stance on them.

Fun fact though: I do have a hat right now.

Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle are brothers and sisters in arms.
United in one true purpose their God give them they together stand against enemies of Mankind, in matterium and immaterium.
But they are not alone in theis fight, alongside them stand brave Guardsman, honorable Astartes and vise Mechanicus.
And together, they lead our race in a struggle for survival and galactic dominance.

And that is the only truth about Imeprial forces and their obligations and loyalties.

These are my views, Kan has his views. He respect mine and I respect his

Brother Coa wrote:Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle are brothers and sisters in arms.
United in one true purpose their God give them they together stand against enemies of Mankind, in matterium and immaterium.
But they are not alone in theis fight, alongside them stand brave Guardsman, honorable Astartes and vise Mechanicus.
And together, they lead our race in a struggle for survival and galactic dominance.

And that is the only truth about Imeprial forces and their obligations and loyalties.

These are my views, Kan has his views. He respect mine and I respect his

I was going to say I don't respect anyones opinions not even my own. But seeing that would make it impossible I will say. I will believe people that support their opinion.

I really don't like the fluff of the Grey Knights where they massacre Sisters of Battle for no reason. Other than that the book is fine imo. Draigo is a bit ridiculous, but I expect in the next Chaos Codex for a Daemon to be going through the Imperium like a butter knife through butter to make up for it.

Backfire wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Grey Knights hand down. Why? Well, there was that one time where the Knights butchered the Sisters of Battle. Loyal sisters, mind you, not traitors. Why? To protect themselves from demonic corruption...even though it's been stated many times that the Grey Knights are absolutely demon proof.

They are "daemon proof" because they have willpower and resolve to commit whatever acts it takes to avoid being corrupted or tempted. Not because they have some sort of "Mythi-Power(tm)" which makes them "daemon proof". And really, the Bloodtide incident was probably one of the LEAST collateral damage-producing actions Grey Knights or Inquisition have undertaken.

Really? What was the most?

Quickly getting away from the (never ending) GK discussion... Is there no one else who kinda dislikes the whole idea behind the Dark Eldar? I must admit, I haven`t read the codex and barely have any knowledge of their full fluff, but the bits I know are really ridiculous. I mean between all these races with different interesting political systems and societies, fighting for survival or at least seeming somehow "realistic", the Dark Eldar just fly around in oldschool ships with engines whipping people, get slaves and mix all living things they find together for da lulz. I understand the idea of Orks just being silly and lootin for da lulz, because they are supposed to be some kind of primitive species that doesn´t need anything more then fighting and who´s society always collapses under tribal rivalry, but Dark Eldar being so advanced and still so ridiculously silly... I just can´t sympathise with that. An entire big civilised fraction dedicated to just doing nonesense and having no problem surviving because ... they hide in some webway or behind a rainbow orsomething... Ok I have next to no idea of the fluff, but still I feel they are hugely innecessary and a lot worse then the GK stabbin some sisters, but oppinions may vary.

Ps: The Grey Knight with the "hat" made me die from laughter.

Grey Knights, because as someone else stated, they lost their cool mystique.

I'm not going to say a thing on the Bloodtide incident, or Draigo, because honestly I don't about those as much. What annoys me is that what was once the super-secret militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, the incorruptible, those who didn't have to run around and throw the words pure on everything, have been reduced to an immature "We're super badasses who don't afraid of nothing!".

I mean seriously, damn...


I also do have to admit that I don't get how Dark Eldar "feed" on pain. I mean, if they hurt somebody, I understand if they're happy or elated, but by killing someone they suddenly become immune to bullets? (Seriously, FnP? I'm not crying cheese, I just don't understand the logic)

Cryonicleech wrote:Grey Knights, because as someone else stated, they lost their cool mystique.

I'm not going to say a thing on the Bloodtide incident, or Draigo, because honestly I don't about those as much. What annoys me is that what was once the super-secret militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, the incorruptible, those who didn't have to run around and throw the words pure on everything, have been reduced to an immature "We're super badasses who don't afraid of nothing!".

I mean seriously, damn...


I also do have to admit that I don't get how Dark Eldar "feed" on pain. I mean, if they hurt somebody, I understand if they're happy or elated, but by killing someone they suddenly become immune to bullets? (Seriously, FnP? I'm not crying cheese, I just don't understand the logic)

I think it's that they literally consume the souls of those they kill, which makes them more powerful.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Backfire wrote:
They are "daemon proof" because they have willpower and resolve to commit whatever acts it takes to avoid being corrupted or tempted. Not because they have some sort of "Mythi-Power(tm)" which makes them "daemon proof". And really, the Bloodtide incident was probably one of the LEAST collateral damage-producing actions Grey Knights or Inquisition have undertaken.

Really? What was the most?

Well, possibly one of the rather many occasions when they have Exterminated entire planet. Or maybe Raxos where Stern ordered huge number of civilian refugee shuttles to be destroyed because he suspected one of them was carrying a Daemon. Or First War of Armageddon where entire population of the planet was put to concentration camps.

Codex:GK, come on, it just ridiculas!

Fire_for_effect wrote:Quickly getting away from the (never ending) GK discussion... Is there no one else who kinda dislikes the whole idea behind the Dark Eldar? I must admit, I haven`t read the codex and barely have any knowledge of their full fluff, but the bits I know are really ridiculous. I mean between all these races with different interesting political systems and societies, fighting for survival or at least seeming somehow "realistic", the Dark Eldar just fly around in oldschool ships with engines whipping people, get slaves and mix all living things they find together for da lulz. I understand the idea of Orks just being silly and lootin for da lulz, because they are supposed to be some kind of primitive species that doesn´t need anything more then fighting and who´s society always collapses under tribal rivalry, but Dark Eldar being so advanced and still so ridiculously silly... I just can´t sympathise with that. An entire big civilised fraction dedicated to just doing nonesense and having no problem surviving because ... they hide in some webway or behind a rainbow orsomething... Ok I have next to no idea of the fluff, but still I feel they are hugely innecessary and a lot worse then the GK stabbin some sisters, but oppinions may vary.

Well, to understand the Dark Eldar, you have to understand how they came to be, and the mentality of an Eldar.

The Eldar have a wider emotional range than humans do, much wider. This translates into them sometimes slipping into an extreme, and it is the reason why Eldar are so orderly and disciplined.

However, if they continue to experience one thing for so long and become entrenched in it, they reach an extreme that they can't get out of. Exarchs for instance become so focused on combat, they literally can't stop and do anything else, being now totally focused on it.

The Dark Eldar are like this, but with sadism and depravity. It's literally a drug for them, an addiction. Beyond that, they also do it due to existential dread, they feed on the suffering of others (I assume they literally leech the emotion from them, sort of like slowly eating their soul) to prolong their lives and keep themselves from dying and being devoured (And worse) by Slaanesh. Who they created. You see, before the Fall, the Eldar were such an advanced race that they had way too much free time, their technology being capable of doing their work. So they spent time being lazy hedonistic bastards. They began seeking new thrills, greater excesses, and over time they had to resort to greater and greater extremes to satiate themselves, their pursuit of excess being like drugs for them.

And Dark Eldar tech is not oldschool, their tech is some of the most advanced in the setting, the only faction with undoubtedly superior technology being the Necrons.

I would recommend you give the 5e codex a read, IMHO has the best fluff of all the 5e codices, but that's just me.

Dark Eldar Codex is my favorite read, especially the part about Urien and Tau (Cultural Exchange! lol!)

I played GKs from the early days of the last book, and it pains me to say that they are indeed the champions of the worst fluff in the game right now. I just cannot get past the whole cracking open some Sisters for blood to roll around in, let along the Chuck Norris in power armor that is Draigo. The Inquisitor fluff is at least somewhat acceptable, but christ is the rest of it bad.

Honorable mention has to go to the Blood Angels, who went from being closet vampires to pretty greek boys who pal around with Necrons for fun.

The best fluff has to be the Necron book, with honorable mention (though it pains me again as an Eldar player) to the Dark Eldar book.

BA fluff is not actually that terrible (Getting ready to dodge all the flak that's coming my way)
Well, the part about the Necrons is kind of bewildering and the Sanguinar part is pretty silly, but at least it portrays their struggle against their innate flaws and fighting against extinctions and not being invincible uber dudes all the time.

Kanluwen wrote:Of course I won't back down. They are my views.
It's the same with my stance on the death penalty and homosexual marriages. People can stand against me as much as they want, it doesn't change my stance on them.

Fun fact though: I do have a hat right now.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! calm the feth down, we're talking about plastic, pewter, and resin army guys, not gay marriage.

Jackster wrote:BA fluff is not actually that terrible (Getting ready to dodge all the flak that's coming my way). Well, the part about the Necrons is kind of bewildering and the Sanguinar part is pretty silly, but at least it portrays their struggle against their innate flaws and fighting against extinctions and not being invincible uber dudes all the time.

You've summed up what's wrong with the Blood Angels (and the Space Wolves for that matter) perfectly. It's a few small moments of Ultra-Derp (Sanguinor, Necron/BA BFF's, Canis Wolfborn, Deep Striking Land Raiders, JoTWW, Sanguinor) that bring the BA and SW Codices down, but don't make them the worst. Most of what's there basically fits with what was there previously.

The GK's on the other hand...




And I know I said Sanguinor twice. That flying Mary Sue deserves two mentions.

Jackster wrote:BA fluff is not actually that terrible (Getting ready to dodge all the flak that's coming my way)
Well, the part about the Necrons is kind of bewildering and the Sanguinar part is pretty silly, but at least it portrays their struggle against their innate flaws and fighting against extinctions and not being invincible uber dudes all the time.

This, of course, I'm tempted to post the "hitler finds out about the new blood angels codex" video, since most of the people whining about BA are the eldar and tyranid players.

But that's more rules than fluff, right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:But that's more rules than fluff, right?

Yeah, however, I always recommend BA for starting a space marine army, due to having more troop choices, as well as other options, and being more playable. I would say DA isn't my favorite, with only one standard troop choice.

remilia_scarlet wrote:

Jackster wrote:BA fluff is not actually that terrible (Getting ready to dodge all the flak that's coming my way)
Well, the part about the Necrons is kind of bewildering and the Sanguinar part is pretty silly, but at least it portrays their struggle against their innate flaws and fighting against extinctions and not being invincible uber dudes all the time.

This, of course, I'm tempted to post the "hitler finds out about the new blood angels codex" video, since most of the people whining about BA are the eldar and tyranid players.

Love that video!

Though it was pretty well establish that Thunderhawks can transport land raiders, so they being air deploy by them wasnt really made up by Matt Ward.

Kanluwen wrote:Of course I won't back down. They are my views.
It's the same with my stance on the death penalty and homosexual marriages.

Is it death to heretics and purge the unclean? I JOKE I JOKE!

I found the biggest problem was just how poorly the Grey Knight fluff was written. Matt Ward has a massive problem with the writing style he attempted. He tried to give off an epic poem vibe, but it falls flat and seems inconsistent at times. He overused the word purity to the point where a drinking game would kill a space wolf on the first page. The fluff was just rather unexciting and obscenely over the top at times.

Yeah, he attempted to flesh out previously sparse details, and it didn't work out. Ward's best effort is Codex: Space Marines, it contains couple of UM fanboi moments but nothing too outrageous compared to later stuff.

I'm surprised so many people voted for Space Wolves codex here. I thought that pretty well written book. There are some silly moments (overabundance of wolf everything) but overall I think it sets the tone for the army, just like Ork or DE books. Is it just that people resent the book because of it's tabletop power?

First place: Matt Ward
Second place: Phil Kelly
Third place: Matt Ward

Not that I didn't saw this coming...

It feels as though the Space Wolf codex is a satire about the fanwank of the other marine codecies.

Jackster wrote:Though it was pretty well establish that Thunderhawks can transport land raiders, so they being air deploy by them wasnt really made up by Matt Ward.

Yeah. Thunderhawk Transproters land, the Land Raider detaches, the Thunderhawk flies away, and the Land Raider then drives. They don't do Land Raider bombing runs.


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Backfire wrote:Yeah, he attempted to flesh out previously sparse details, and it didn't work out. Ward's best effort is Codex: Space Marines, it contains couple of UM fanboi moments but nothing too outrageous compared to later stuff.

I agree here. Even the '[Insert Character here] kills an Avatar' moment is far more subtle. Calgar gets bitch slapped by the Avatar, and only defeats him through the handwavium his gauntlets are made out of. He's gets lucky. Mary Sueguinor just flies around and tears an Avatar to pieces with both hands tied behind his wings.

People thought a several hundred ton brick parachuted down or something?

Jackster wrote:Dark Eldar Codex is my favorite read, especially the part about Urien and Tau (Cultural Exchange! lol!)

This, that story is my favorite piece of fluff I've ever read. As for worst I guess I would have to say grey knights,

Ps. Is it for sure Matt Ward is doing crons because if it is I might as well jump off a bridge now cuz my life is no longer worth living.

Better get writing on that suicide note, 'cause Ward's a'Cronin'.

Fire_for_effect wrote:Quickly getting away from the (never ending) GK discussion... Is there no one else who kinda dislikes the whole idea behind the Dark Eldar? I must admit, I haven`t read the codex and barely have any knowledge of their full fluff, but the bits I know are really ridiculous. I mean between all these races with different interesting political systems and societies, fighting for survival or at least seeming somehow "realistic", the Dark Eldar just fly around in oldschool ships with engines whipping people, get slaves and mix all living things they find together for da lulz. I understand the idea of Orks just being silly and lootin for da lulz, because they are supposed to be some kind of primitive species that doesn´t need anything more then fighting and who´s society always collapses under tribal rivalry, but Dark Eldar being so advanced and still so ridiculously silly... I just can´t sympathise with that. An entire big civilised fraction dedicated to just doing nonesense and having no problem surviving because ... they hide in some webway or behind a rainbow orsomething... Ok I have next to no idea of the fluff, but still I feel they are hugely innecessary and a lot worse then the GK stabbin some sisters, but oppinions may vary.

That isn't how the Dark Eldar are at all. They aren't doing it for "da lulz." They are doing it because they are depraved and if they don't they lose their souls to Slaanesh. They started down a slide into darkness that they can't get out of. They have to winess pain and suffering and violence in order to survive. It really is good fluff, and I advise that you shouldn't rush to judgement. Instead look at the codex. You may be impressed.

The worst is BA. It is as if a fifth grader wrote it yelling "wouldn't it be cool if! Awesome!"

Wow, lots of GK haters in here.

Really thinking about it, I'd have to say that the Blood Angles codex might be the worst. I didn't care for them before the new codex, but none of the "new" stuff is really any better.

I can't say most of the older codices are to my liking. The Tau feel too small for what is supposed to be a growing and diverse, technologically advanced empire, and the Necrons codex is just boring. Both factions are due for updates in the relatively near future though, so they get a pass.

Well, in defense of the GK codex, at least I didn't stop reading it because it was so bad. I did with blood angels. I'd even say it's better than the ultra-marine's happy rainbow land.

Really don't see the problem with the SW codex, but then again I really like trashy and ridiculous cliché fluff.

In my opinion the imperial guard has the highest quality fluff of all

headrattle wrote:

Fire_for_effect wrote:Quickly getting away from the (never ending) GK discussion... Is there no one else who kinda dislikes the whole idea behind the Dark Eldar? I must admit, I haven`t read the codex and barely have any knowledge of their full fluff, but the bits I know are really ridiculous. I mean between all these races with different interesting political systems and societies, fighting for survival or at least seeming somehow "realistic", the Dark Eldar just fly around in oldschool ships with engines whipping people, get slaves and mix all living things they find together for da lulz. I understand the idea of Orks just being silly and lootin for da lulz, because they are supposed to be some kind of primitive species that doesn´t need anything more then fighting and who´s society always collapses under tribal rivalry, but Dark Eldar being so advanced and still so ridiculously silly... I just can´t sympathise with that. An entire big civilised fraction dedicated to just doing nonesense and having no problem surviving because ... they hide in some webway or behind a rainbow orsomething... Ok I have next to no idea of the fluff, but still I feel they are hugely innecessary and a lot worse then the GK stabbin some sisters, but oppinions may vary.

That isn't how the Dark Eldar are at all. They aren't doing it for "da lulz." They are doing it because they are depraved and if they don't they lose their souls to Slaanesh. They started down a slide into darkness that they can't get out of. They have to winess pain and suffering and violence in order to survive. It really is good fluff, and I advise that you shouldn't rush to judgement. Instead look at the codex. You may be impressed.

The worst is BA. It is as if a fifth grader wrote it yelling "wouldn't it be cool if! Awesome!"

Remember also that GW are British, so if you were raised anywhere else you missed out on one of the main inspirations for the new Dark Eldar vibe.

Celtic folklore was used as an inspiration for the Eldar (most of the craftworlds are named after celtic holidays, their pantheon is celtic inspired etc etc) -They are space Seliegh Sidhe (Summer Court fey. Technically the better option of the two courts, but in no way the Good Guys all the time from the human perspective).

The new Dark eldar vibe has been brought into line with this, moving mostly away from the BDSM and sandpaper thong old-style DE and reimagining them as more Unseliegh Sidhe (Dark fey- manipulative, prone to stealing you away to do unpleasant things to you, and definitely always the bad guys ). There is a huge amount of inference to the connection in the codes, which is a pretty good read


Hit up some of the old Irish/Scottish fairy tales and you'll get the idea. Some of them are downright creepy in an awesome kind of way

Hey now.

I'm not from Britain and I got the Fey vibe that the Dark Eldar codex was trying to do.

Surtur wrote:I found the biggest problem was just how poorly the Grey Knight fluff was written. Matt Ward has a massive problem with the writing style he attempted.

Ward has problems with writing in general.

He's kind of a crappy writer.

I'll give you that.


Ward should stick to writing rules and maybe coming up with Concepts and themes. leave the actual writing to Jervis.

I could get behind that, as long as someone else doublechecked his rules for loophole/non-clarity issues.

He just blends fluff and rules a little too much(plasma siphon, in which case it was nothing but fluff for its rules)

This is actually a decent idea, but this game is played competitivly and fluffy rules are what paves the way to gamer hell.

Personally, and I'm sure controversially, I think all the codices have a major problem, reams of dull and repetitive 'battles/campaigns'. Many are thin on specifics about the races/forces and then launch into endless dull and usually unimaginative battle reports. Most of them are covering 10,000 years and have precious little to say. Both GK and Nids suffer from this. There is masses that could be thought up about nids but instead of interesting details we get nids v every race in turn. Nid battles are pretty simple - they turn up and attempt to eat everything. They either succeed or fail. The codex makes it clear that 99% of the time their tactics are to swarm the enemy. So the codex reads something like - nids swarm all over planet x, nids swarm all over planet y, etc. If the GK wiped out worlds at the rate of the new codex the Imperium will destroy itself in about 500 years!

It's a tough call. Either the Space Wolves for their tedious naming convention and general Mary Sue-ness, or Grey Knights for a few stand-out pieces of atrocious fluff (Purifiers, Draigo) and complete butchery of previously established background.

Blood Angels have the tedious naming convention as well, in addition to a few herp-derp moments like the Necron bro-mance, but overall they are no worse than they've ever been. They've always been vampires in space who were very sad their daddy died.

Space Marines has that whole Ultramarine wankery going on, but if you read it as talking only about Ultramarine successors (i.e. half of the Space Marines and growing), it's not that horrible. Although it gets annoying when Ward takes previously written fluff, and edits a few words here and there to make the boys in blue moar awesomez for no particular reason.


I'll have to agree with several posters above me that all the books are pretty much garbage with the exception of the Dark Eldar (excellent), Orks (cartoonish and hilarious), and IG (passable).


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Grey Templar wrote:. leave the actual writing to Jervis.

Jervis is an abomination, and his writing is so dull and listless as to make me want to slit my wrists rather than read any more of it.

I found the space marine codex unforgivably dull. Atleast other codices like the GK and SW have merit and are fun to read (if only because they're sooo bad). But the space marine codex is pretty much talking about a dull poster boy chapter's victories with only a few tid bits here and there about other chapters. Personally my favorite codex in terms of fluff and content is the Imperial Guard.

I think that every new writer at GW should be beaten on the head with a copy of the Ork codex to the point of near death upon taking the job, so that they really know how a good codex feels like.

Fafnir wrote:I think that every new writer at GW should be beaten on the head with a copy of the Ork codex to the point of near death upon taking the job, so that they really know how a good codex feels like.

ROFL win! That's gonna be in my sig.

Brother SRM wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:From what I have been reading recently whatever the latest version of "Your" Codex is out

This post is a good post.

The Space Marines codex has fine fluff. Honestly, it's mostly good. Yeah, there's too much Ultramarines wankery, but whatever, the rest is fine. The Blood Angels fluff is mostly fine, but the whole bit about teaming up with Necrons is really dumb. I've read the codex and didn't find anything else memorably bad. I actually liked all the "end is nigh" stuff. Black Templars has cool fluff, Space Wolves have very fitting fluff that reads like folk legends. Imperial Guard fluff is solid but not too memorable, Orks are fantastic, Dark Eldar is awesome, Eldar is good too. Basically Phil Kelly = great. The Tyranids codex doesn't have anything too memorable, Tau don't have too much fluff to speak of, nor do Necrons. Grey Knights have some okay fluff but a few really awful moments stand out and the Internet latches on to those. Chaos Space Marines have fine fluff too, but people generally brand everything about that codex as horrible because the rules aren't what they could be.

This post is a good post.

Honesty people moan about BA and Necrons cease hostilities until a common foe is defeated? How wouldnt? You want them to still fight each other despite beeing butcherd by Tyranids and beeing sentinent?

Even worse with Grey Knights: You cant walk through the walk? Of course you can? Changing something in the warp changes nothing? Of course, because symbols and emotions matter everything in the warp, not matter.

Space Woves have to many Wolve names? Did you ever saw Space Wolves? They are walking furballs with faces.

Omegus wrote:Jervis is an abomination, and his writing is so dull and listless as to make me want to slit my wrists rather than read any more of it.

I sorta agree with this, to an extent.

The 4e Dark Angels codex was far and away one of the most boring codices I can recall, holy crap that codex was almost offensively boring, I can't believe I finished it.


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Dark Scipio wrote:Honesty people moan about BA and Necrons cease hostilities until a common foe is defeated? How wouldnt? You want them to still fight each other despite beeing butcherd by Tyranids and beeing sentinent?

Well Necrons are incapable of dying and most are mindless so "self-preservation" isn't really high on their list of priorities.

Though it's not that they parted ways after the Tyranids were destroyed, if they just left one another alone because their respective forces were diminished (Something very much in line with Necron fluff), then that would be at least not as bad, though frankly the idea of Necrons allying with anyone is kind of stupid. But Dante expressed a distaste for attacking their former allies. That's just lame dood.

Though yeah, it doesn't deserve the nerdrage the fandom gives it.

That kind of neckbearded hatred should be reserved for guys like Draigo... Or any Space Wolf.

Dark Scipio wrote:

Honesty people moan about BA and Necrons cease hostilities until a common foe is defeated? How wouldnt? You want them to still fight each other despite beeing butcherd by Tyranids and beeing sentinent?

The Necrons don't see the Space Marines as any different than the Tyranids, and the Blood Angels are intensely aggressive and xenophobic genetically engineered psych-indoctrinated super soldiers whose sole purpose and sacred duty, all they live for, is to annihilate anything that could be a threat to the Imperium or quite frankly simply isn't human and under the banner of the Imperium.

Space Woves have to many Wolve names? Did you ever saw Space Wolves? They are walking furballs with faces.

There's a difference between having a theme, and taking it overboard. When you literally have a character whose name, titles, wargear and special rules have the word "wolf" or some variation a damn near a dozen times, it's gone overboard into parody.

But the Necrons are lead by cunning commanders, and if the thread of the Tyranids is larger than that of the Marines, it makes sense to cease hostilities to have a chance to keep existing and complete your goal later.

Same for BAs.

Backfire wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Backfire wrote:
They are "daemon proof" because they have willpower and resolve to commit whatever acts it takes to avoid being corrupted or tempted. Not because they have some sort of "Mythi-Power(tm)" which makes them "daemon proof". And really, the Bloodtide incident was probably one of the LEAST collateral damage-producing actions Grey Knights or Inquisition have undertaken.

Really? What was the most?

Well, possibly one of the rather many occasions when they have Exterminated entire planet. Or maybe Raxos where Stern ordered huge number of civilian refugee shuttles to be destroyed because he suspected one of them was carrying a Daemon. Or First War of Armageddon where entire population of the planet was put to concentration camps.

Even worse is it was only those of the lower and middle classes


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And could someone count how many times the word blood or words with blood in them are used in the BA codex.

Dark Scipio wrote:But the Necrons are lead by cunning commanders, and if the thread of the Tyranids is larger than that of the Marines, it makes sense to cease hostilities to have a chance to keep existing and complete your goal later.

Same for BAs.

To an extent, for the immediate threat perhaps, but to end parting peacefully is ascribing a reasonableness to these forces that simply isn't reasonable given the game universe.

Omegus wrote:

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Grey Templar wrote:. leave the actual writing to Jervis.

Jervis is an abomination, and his writing is so dull and listless as to make me want to slit my wrists rather than read any more of it.

choose your poison then

Ward or Jervis?

Arsenic.

Omegus wrote:Arsenic.

+1 there.
I would personally go with Ward. At least then I get something out of that writing.

Vaktathi wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:But the Necrons are lead by cunning commanders, and if the thread of the Tyranids is larger than that of the Marines, it makes sense to cease hostilities to have a chance to keep existing and complete your goal later.

Same for BAs.

To an extent, for the immediate threat perhaps, but to end parting peacefully is ascribing a reasonableness to these forces that simply isn't reasonable given the game universe.

Yeah, that is a bit far fetched. If both armies were crippled to the point where it would be tactically prudent t to just let their enemies go then yes, but I believe that that wasn't stated.

Blood Angels. Their fluff is boring and made the long suffering chapter look like an army made of Twilight characters (they are emo, vampire golden boys). Even Tycho seems as an wuss and don't get me started on the Sanguinor...
I hope that the next marine codex is written by Phil Kelly since he seems to be in control of the fluff for some extent (love the eldar codex).

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Blood Angels. Their fluff is boring and made the long suffering chapter look like an army made of Twilight characters (they are emo, vampire golden boys). Even Tycho seems as an Wuss and don't get me started on the Sanguinor...
I hope that the next marine codex is written by Phil Kelly since he seems to be in control of the fluff for some extent (love the eldar codex).

Yeah, Kelly is just awesome. Love the Ork Codex, and the Dark Eldar Codex is just brilliant. Is he a new guy?

I dont actually know but I think that Phill has been around GW for quite a long time. His face has been around some really old white dwarfs.

The space Wolves are Kelly's work too.

1hadhq wrote:The space Wolves are Kelly's work too.

Everyone has a bad day occasionally.

Please god don't let Ward within 500 miles of a CSM codex i don't the CSM getting monkey laser freaking guns with Str 10 Ap 1 and insta kills Land Raiders for no reason

A bad day?

So 50/50 in 5th ed.
Maybe hes better off with xenos > Craftworld Eldar as a followup of their dark cousins.

@Nightwalker:

Ruinous powers
- who gets power wrong?
- who ruins the fluff?

There is no escape.

If Ward is still working for GW after the necron dex release...
maybe there is a portal opening and swallows him... you know the greenish kind of portals....

Let's review all of them, shall we?

Blood Angles: We're vampires in SPAAAAAAACE, basically meaning we're better than every other chapter. And all our stuff has something to do with blood.
Black Templars: We're men, we're men in tights. Not much to say. Nothing like running towards Purifiers because they killed Plebeian Bob.
Dark Angles: Their primarch's name is a pun on a homosexual poet, and since they have a 'dark secret', it's pretty lol worthy. Apart from that, just average Spessh Mehren goodness.
Chaos Daemons: They're Daemons. They do ridiculous gak and disappear. There's literally nothing good or bad about their fluff.
CHAOS SPESSH MEHRENS: They invade the Imperium and they fail, every time. Every, single, time.
Dark Eldar: Now apparently they actually have lore. The Kabals actually have personalities and apparently they're really bad at cleaning Space Marines off their Dark City. They also trolled a bunch of Tau by stealing them and turning them into Grotesques.
Eldar: "We got completely destroyed by the Lord of Pleasure, and we're fighting for survival, but we're STILL going to act like arrogant dickheads about it"
Grey Knights: Every single Grey Knight is a fluff-decimating whirlwind of unstoppable destruction. But don't worry, there's definitely some plot tension there.
Imperial Guard: "You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training."
Necrons: Half their fluff is about how they became SUPER MEGA POWERFUL from the C'tan, and the other half is unintelligible bs about various stories, including something about a Callidus Assassin discovering that a Planetary Governor is a C'tan. No joke. Next book hopefully they'll get the DE treatment and get some actual fluff.
Orks: "We iz Orks, and you is not."
Sisters of Battle: I'm not going to discuss this gak at all.
Space Wolves: Honorable werewolf viking trickster Space Marines? Oh yeah, this is totally coherent and sensible.
Tau: In the grim Darkness of the Far Future (C), there is only communist space cows with both optimism and bad eyesight. Their special characters are unremarkable and they get along by using technology to compensate for genetics. Thanks, Apple!
Tyranids: What started off as an actually good pull-off of the faceless force of destruction has just become meh. Now they have personality. The Swarmlord sort of reminds me almost as if they made another Alien film and one of the Xenomorphs suddenly decides that he wants to murder things with a baseball bat instead of claws. So now he's Bob the Baseball Xenomorph. And he terrorizes the entire galaxy, and everyone targets him. There'll be wanted posters for Bob everywhere.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:The Swarmlord sort of reminds me almost as if they made another Alien film and one of the Xenomorphs suddenly decides that he wants to murder things with a baseball bat instead of claws.

Ok, that did make me laugh.

He's kind of a biological General Greivous (middle name Bodily, Surname Harm)

He's great conversion fodder though, even if i do disapprove of the fluff change.

I would have made him a variant CC tyrant, rather than a special character.

Grey Templar wrote:I'll give you that.


Ward should stick to writing rules and maybe coming up with Concepts and themes. leave the actual writing to Jervis.

I have some doubts about that, remember Chaos Daemon Army book?

Ward is the broken clock of rules development, and as we know, a broken clock is right twice a day.

Kanluwen wrote:Not really, not when it comes to a very powerful one.

Yes, really. The methods are time consuming and not a little bit painful, but they work.

Melissia wrote:The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Do they use scalpels?

labmouse42 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Do they use scalpels?

They use Chainswords...

Brother Coa wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Do they use scalpels?

They use Chainswords...

Cauterizing the wounds with flamethrowers, no doubt.

Lynata wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Do they use scalpels?

They use Chainswords...

Cauterizing the wounds with flamethrowers, no doubt.

And don't forget melta for wound recovery

Brother Coa wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Do they use scalpels?

They use Chainswords...

Cauterizing the wounds with flamethrowers, no doubt.

And don't forget melta for wound recovery

and then there is Psychotroke grenades for the pain.

Mutation must be delt with by Rad grenade therapy.

There's always the Plasma surgery!

Tau.

Not enough substance.

Eldar. They make Eldrad out to be this great guy, and both times I have faced him I have killed him easy.

Space Wolves.

Not even a competition there...

Tau or WOLFWOLFWOLFWOLFWOLF.

The only pet peeve I really have is when people don't know their own codex.

This past weekend I wound up saying "Are you sure your commissar gives all IG +1 BS to all models within 12?"

Space Wolves for the names. Grey Knights in second for the abomination that is Draigo.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:Tau.

Not enough substance.

That's not really bad fluff, just lack of fluff.

Does anyone else notice a slight bias?

Kanluwen wrote:Why is it that we have to have this freaking conversation every time a "worst fluff in a Codex" thread?

This idea leads me to say GK.

If it is written so badly that it annoys someone who wants to support them it is probably a bad sign.

Otherwise, personally, it's Tyranids.
So much of that undercut what drew me to the army that I have almost stopped playing.
The rules themselves are not so bad (the FAQ is another matter), but I have been thinking that perhaps I have serious issues with Cruddace's idea of game design. Between his handeling of Tyranids and Tomb Kings he has decimated my urge to collect and game.

Space Wolves. No question.

The rest of the Codex fluff I quite like. Even the Blood Angels and Grey knights had reasonable fluff, despite some rather large flaws (coughsistersofbattlemurderedforsomedarkritualcough)
but on the whole they're OK.

But Space Wolves? ARGH!

Dark Scipio wrote:But the Necrons are lead by cunning commanders, and if the thread of the Tyranids is larger than that of the Marines, it makes sense to cease hostilities to have a chance to keep existing and complete your goal later.

Same for BAs.

No.
First. Tyranids don't like attacking the Necrons in the first place. There are places in the books that state that the Tyranids avoid the Necron tomb worlds.
Second. The Necrons would NOT stop attacking the Blood Angels. They would continue to attack the Blood Angels while attacking the Tyranids. It would be a three way battle.
Third. The Necrons don't stop, unless they phase out. So if they had too many casulties, they would just phase out. But that would have nothing to do with who fought on their side.

Those reasons make the BA codex feel... dirty. Currupted. And that isn't the only bit. Though i will admit that I haven't gone through the Grey Knights Codex enough. Maybe it really is worse.

Spare yourself the brain ache. It is.

Look at the poll results

TrollPie wrote:

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:Tau.

Not enough substance.

That's not really bad fluff, just lack of fluff.

Which is precisely what's wrong with it.

The CSM fluff was pretty bad, but I realised we got off lightly when I read the GK stuff.

ROFL. 160 for GK. next in line is SW with 38. It's sad that someone can write such horrible fluff.

labmouse42 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium has many means to remove taint.

Do they use scalpels?

In some cases, yes. Pain is for the body as prayer is for the mind and soul, in the mind of many Imperials.

I wonder will we ever reach 1337 amount of votes on one poll option?

Sisters of Battle.

Everyone else's latest Codex actually HAS fluff. We've got 4 pages of it. : /

Okay, 3 pages, if you don't count the double-half-page spread of a photo of an army.

Which would you rather have, though, Pouncey? Not enough fluff? Or a lot of fluff that is exceedingly similar to something a 13y old would write.

Literally, I remember being like 11-13 and for fun writing stuff like draigo's backstory. Reread it all 2 years ago and was terrified.

Oh god. Is...is Ward writing more codeci?

He's writing Necrons, IIRC.

Melissia wrote:He's writing Necrons, IIRC.

I'd just love to see how he handles that one. If I had to guess, the same way Cruddance handled Tyranids: Like a turd.

BronzeJon wrote:Which would you rather have, though, Pouncey? Not enough fluff? Or a lot of fluff that is exceedingly similar to something a 13y old would write.

Literally, I remember being like 11-13 and for fun writing stuff like draigo's backstory. Reread it all 2 years ago and was terrified.

Oh god. Is...is Ward writing more codeci?

Mmm... I guess I could fill in the blanks with my own custom fluff for my Sisters of the Flame... It's not like I wasn't gonna do it anyways.

BronzeJon wrote:Which would you rather have, though, Pouncey? Not enough fluff? Or a lot of fluff that is exceedingly similar to something a 13y old would write.

Literally, I remember being like 11-13 and for fun writing stuff like draigo's backstory. Reread it all 2 years ago and was terrified.

Oh god. Is...is Ward writing more codeci?

"Codices".

And yes, he's writing Codex: Necron Marines.

And probably Black Templars, if the rumours turn out to be true. Set sail for fail kids, because he's gonna take that whole 'Knights Templar' thing and blow it way out of proportion.

We're gonna see Dreadnoughts with Templar Claws and Templar missiles?

Brother SRM wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:From what I have been reading recently whatever the latest version of "Your" Codex is out

This post is a good post.

The Space Marines codex has fine fluff. Honestly, it's mostly good. Yeah, there's too much Ultramarines wankery, but whatever, the rest is fine. The Blood Angels fluff is mostly fine, but the whole bit about teaming up with Necrons is really dumb. I've read the codex and didn't find anything else memorably bad. I actually liked all the "end is nigh" stuff. Black Templars has cool fluff, Space Wolves have very fitting fluff that reads like folk legends. Imperial Guard fluff is solid but not too memorable, Orks are fantastic, Dark Eldar is awesome, Eldar is good too. Basically Phil Kelly = great. The Tyranids codex doesn't have anything too memorable, Tau don't have too much fluff to speak of, nor do Necrons. Grey Knights have some okay fluff but a few really awful moments stand out and the Internet latches on to those. Chaos Space Marines have fine fluff too, but people generally brand everything about that codex as horrible because the rules aren't what they could be.

This is truth.

Worst fluff is most likely Tau. That's comin from a huge Tan Fanboy too... Sadly, the dates don't match up, the characters are very plain, and while I enjoy the race, they are left pretty vague and unexplained for a "federation" in warhammer.

Edit: I have to say though the IG and Wolfy dexes were hard reads. Its more my preference though.

Omegus wrote:We're gonna see Dreadnoughts with Templar Claws and Templar missiles?

I wouldn't be sure whether I should laugh or cry.

Though at that point, one could only hope Ward is really only trolling.

No, no, no. They'll be called Crusade Fists!

I think "Claws of the Templar" would make a pretty cool name for a Special Character's set of LC.

GAH...
Save me from cruddy name conventions..


If they ruin the Templars as well im committing virtual sepukku. The Templars are the only Loyalist chapter i'm fond of

To all Grey Knights codex haters:
their codex is one of the few where the fluff mostly matches the abilities.
The others being Tyranids and Daemon (last time I read it at least).

(Pretending that the above statement actually matters...)

Ok, so, if that's the case, then surely Draigo should be able to take on entire armies by himself - right?

If codex fluff reflected tabletop rules, Creed being on the field would result in an instant win.

This thread makes me sad. I can say it's one of the biggest collections of exaggeration I've seen so far on Dakka. And that's saying something.

I'm going to start a fluff army based on Caldor Draigo. It will consist of only his model. I will win. Always.

I'll take him on with the Deciever.

You'll lose...always

"Hey mom! I just carved my name into a Daemonic Primarchs heart!! Really!! And he couldn't lift a finger to stop me you know why? 'COS I'M AWESOME BUY MY ARMY!!!"

Or am I too cynical? Maybe too lenient given the codex and the abominable background that is contained therein.

Edit: Oh and in no way do I hate GK's, anyone who wants to play them cool, they look nice models. I just hate the new retconned junk that is given as a background for them and the fact there's now whole armies of them sent out regularly to any old warzone? Whatever happened to them being to scarce and valuable a single squad fighting alongside you was an honour beyond belief. Also usually a death sentence, as was the case for many in the first armageddon war.

That hasn't been the case since Codex: Daemonhunters.

C: DH gave some ridiculously vague fluff and was hailed as groundbreaking.
C: GK builds upon most of that fluff, and gets hailed as ruining the background.

Its been a while since i have posted, but i think i will for this thread.

My biggest problem with codex fluff is Grey knights, i can site out the whole slaughtering the sisters thing, or how they now can bring every single purifier in the entire Imperium to every battle on normal grounds, or hell even that for some reason they are now nothing more then evil inquisition bats used to beat and threaten those who can know of them, when alot shouldnt. They are no longer rightous, or pure, as the codex says they are about a zillion times (in the first couple pages no less)

But my biggest problem is Draigo. Dude is so utterly insane in fluff i had to read it three or four times to make sure i got it right. He is accomplishing things the emperor of man himself didnt do. He is strolling about the warp like its cool, no problems with anything there, all of daemonhood is afraid of him and wont fight him at all right? He burned down a nurgle garden, slayed a bloodthirster in the sacred area of khorne, reforges the axe into a new sword for himself (lets not get into how hard that would be on a general thought) broke a tzentian city, and slew handmaidens of slanessh no problem. he did most of that without a weapon. Yeah. Thats beliveable all right. Bloodthirsters are little girls that even the most normal of space marines can kill i guess. I know ward turned avatars into that. The biggest problem i have though....is he and his former grandmaster took down a Daemonic primarch....and he did it with a broken sword and then carved his name into his heart. Im sorry, thats just slowed. He may be the best of the best space marines, but a primarch was so far above your normal space marine that none would every hope or dare be that level.....and now this primarch is even more powerful with daemonic backings....and draigo beats him no problem.


He is just silly as crap.

H.B.M.C. wrote:(Pretending that the above statement actually matters...)

Ok, so, if that's the case, then surely Draigo should be able to take on entire armies by himself - right?

I was not referring to the named characters. The average Grey Knight in tabletop can preform close to the par set in fluff, horrible rolls notwithstanding. The individual Tyranids preform as well as the codex describes, with the only issue being that, in fluff, the points are something close to 1,000,000,000 'nids vs 3,000 other. Now named characters are a different story. Draigo is overpowered in fluff, but in his defense, the Emperor has caused more extreme miracles and His power is based in the Warp.

I just bought the GK codex, and Nightrave summed it up best. The SOB bloodtide...eh, it's not great, but okay. I can let it slide in comparison to Draigo. Draigo is seriously a walking pile of written excrement who should never have been turned into this walking pile of fan-spank. Burn a god's garden? Kill a greater daemon in his own home? Stab a Daemon-Primarch in the chest and write your name on him? Where do the fanboys get off on liking this? Oh...wait...they're probably twelve and sitting in their dark computer rooms looking for steamy pictures of Rebecca Black. (I blame this site for knowing who she is...I was bashing Justin Bieber and somebody told me to bash her too. Looked on youtube...the agony!!)

The other issue is the dreadknight fluff (and dumbass model)-are you kidding me?!
"Let's strap into the chest to combat greater daemons."
"But won't we get chopped?"
"Right, you have terminator armor [equivalent] to protect you"
"Wow, that sounds great, brother-captain!!"

Yes, I admitted to buying the Codex-I'm doing a straight up inquisition army, based on mercenaries in the Marvel Universe (Deadpool, Taskmaster, T-Ray, Constrictor, etc-led by Cable as Coteaz). It will be...glorious. Draigo will never touch my list. As far as I'm concerned...he's the biggest stain in the codex (there is more than him, but NOTHING is that bad). The Twilight cast of BA and SW bow to the stupidity of Draigo.

The Necron fluff did lack a bit of individuality, but that was largely the point. The vast majority of their race had been pulped and sifted down lacking individuality. In the end, all you have is soulless killing machines. Only Immortals and higher retained any sense of self. What the fluff needed was a little more to expand on that.

The fluff was written largely from an outsider's perspective on the race, which gave it its mysterious feel. Perhaps the GK book should have been written the same way. Even Draigo's feats would be allowable if told from the POV of two guardsmen in a foxhole. If the only verifiable pieces of fluff were that the GK were distilled from the gene seed of the loyal survivors of Istvaan and that they kill demons, it could have retained the mystery. Expecially if you add in little bits of Inquisitorial email about "this room on titan that supposedly contains demons" or "the protocols on what to do if the Golden Throne ever fails," etc.

The Tau book on the other hand, can and should include notes from an outside perspective but should have hefty doeses of life from the Tau POV. I have never liked this scrap of info from... somewhere (no one can really tell me from where) that the Tau have terrible eyesight and are vegetarians (patently ridiculous for a predator race who eschews close combat)

Nightrave wrote:...is he and his former grandmaster took down a Daemonic primarch....and he did it with a broken sword and then carved his name into his heart. Im sorry, thats just slowed. He may be the best of the best space marines, but a primarch was so far above your normal space marine that none would every hope or dare be that level.....and now this primarch is even more powerful with daemonic backings....and draigo beats him no problem.

This. This sums it all up. The primarchs were so far above marines, even the best of the best, and the custodes, who are touted as among the best combatants in the IoM. These beings were so powerful only the emperor could pull this kind of stuff on them. Yet one who has had his powers enhanced by ascending to daemonhood gets a name carved into his chest. Seriously what the .

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

I think it's official. GK has the worst fluff, and Matt Ward is the worst fluff writer.

I said Grey Knights, because Castellan Crowe is supposed to be like ultra pure, and he wields a Daemon Weapon. A FETHING DAEMON WEAPON. That practically spells out the word "contradictory"

Beastmaster wrote:I said Grey Knights, because Castellan Crowe is supposed to be like ultra pure, and he wields a Daemon Weapon. A FETHING DAEMON WEAPON. That practically spells out the word "contradictory"

No it doesn't.

You know why?

Because of the fact that he's "ultra pure", he's given the Daemon Weapon as something he's supposed to safeguard. The Daemon within the weapon is effectively neutered because it cannot bend Crowe to his will, like it would any other wielder.

I think GK took this by a landslide. Do they have the worst fluff maybe, I thought it was still enjoyable.

Kanluwen wrote:No it doesn't.

You know why?

Because you say so, just like every other time you disagree with someone over the fluff?

Kanluwen wrote:Because of the fact that he's "ultra pure", he's given the Daemon Weapon as something he's supposed to safeguard. The Daemon within the weapon is effectively neutered because it cannot bend Crowe to his will, like it would any other wielder.

Is Crowe immune to the bloodtide, or would have had to sacrifice a Sister to Khorne in order to be 'ultra ultra pure'.