Hey guys, I have been wondering on everyones opinion on Black Templars and Dark Angels? And remember this is a multiple choice answered poll.

How can you even compare those two?

SSsilverskullSS wrote:How can you even compare those two?

You just decide, and comment why.

Not like that, like black templars are much much better than dark angels. They should never be compared

Dark Angels are emo marines. Black Templar are far cooler.

I some what agree with you on that. I am glad I don't play dark angels anymore. I am going to collect some BT too.

Lord of Baal ( Blood Angels ) with Black Templar rank and Tau Empire profile picture.

You are really universal guy

Yes indeed! LOL I play the Imperium but my heritage is Tau.
Born by Tau raised by the imperium.

Lord of Baal wrote:Hey guys, I have been wondering on everyones opinion on Black Templars and Dark Angels? And remember this is a multiple choice answered poll.

What is your opinion, and why?

Dark Angels because they arn't over zealous nutcases?

In seriousness, a decently constructed argument for one case over the other would be helpful.

I still have to say BT, they are suicidal awesome!

Right ive never understood the whole emo thing people say about DA's, i always think Blood angels are emo's they have "daddy left me issues" then get angry start self harming so get locked in a dark room till battle then get dressed in black oh and they seem the sensitive tpes with there crying face masks etc.
DA's are solem and monastic not self hating.
And on a crusade to redeem themselves (hmmmm who else loves a crusade)

I don't get the emo DA either, the only thing they have worth whinging about they notably don't ever whinge about ever because it is super secret and if anyone ever finds out it's Excommunicatus Traitoris. The Lion is probably the most emotionally bereft of all the Primarchs, too. Hardly competes with Corax's vigil of dark-and-gloomy or Dorn getting half his legion killed because he let daddy down.

I never said their emo, I just don't care for them.

While the Dark Angels are whining about the fallen and cutting themselves, the Black Templars are our their, 6k strong, and balls to the walls over zealous dropping down to a planet, ripping the Heretics and/or Xenos filth a new one and going of their merry genocidal ways!

Dosn't mean i hate the angels, but i think a lot of what they do is sort of, well, heretical. For example, in the Templar codex, the entry of the Crusade of the Ophidium gulf, A small crusade with just under 100 initiates, come upon a desolate and already purged system, the Templars touch down and find out the Dark angels were in the are, they help them find a supposed traitor, and when the templars get to him first and capture him, the Dark angels captain becomes angry and threatens to fire on them, shortly after the transaction the Templars disapear and have not made contact with a Chapter keep since 998 of M41. You can only guess what happened....

I don't hate them though, and in fact i love the Death Wing origin story and a lot of the raven wing fiction.

Ya great summary! XD

Why is every thread you start inane.

Bit harsh, theres been a few goodies by Baal in the last while, kids in warhammer and army painter being two notable classics

Yeah the Army Painter thread was pretty epic. It still has my Trolldar pinging. You missed the "make my friend stop changing armies" thread started by our Dark Angels, no Blood Angels, no Tau, no Templar and bash DA...OP.

Black Templars are pretty cool, they conquer planets and doesn't afraid of anything!



That said, Black Templars don't listen to the nonsense about the Codex Astartes, they're to busy doing what the Emperor told them to do.

look look cant we all just agree that space wolves are just terrible

shakey787 wrote:look look cant we all just agree that space wolves are just terrible

Trying to draw fire from the DA's but agreed

Brother Coa wrote:Lord of Baal ( Blood Angels ) with Black Templar rank and Tau Empire profile picture.

You are really universal guy

You mean Undivided, not universal...

Chaos takes many forms...

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

shakey787 wrote:look look cant we all just agree that space wolves are just terrible

Trying to draw fire from the DA's but agreed

Damn you saw through my carefully planned facade......

I had to physically contain myself when I saw a rather dignified and generally unsnarky guy who plays IG finish whipping a Puppies army and calmly look his munchkin opponent (a WAAC cries when he loses player) in the eyes and say, "just call me the dog catcher"
I love seeing SW players put in thier place.

shakey787 wrote:

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

shakey787 wrote:look look cant we all just agree that space wolves are just terrible

Trying to draw fire from the DA's but agreed

Damn you saw through my carefully planned facade......

The genocidal eyes of a Templar see all !

Joking of course, we're blinded by fury.

As for the last SW comment, that must be priceless.

shakey787 wrote:Right ive never understood the whole emo thing people say about DA's, i always think Blood angels are emo's they have "daddy left me issues" then get angry start self harming so get locked in a dark room till battle then get dressed in black oh and they seem the sensitive types with there crying face masks etc.
DA's are solemn and monastic not self hating.
And on a crusade to redeem themselves (hmmmm who else loves a crusade)

True dat my robe wearing battle brother. Blood angels are more emo then emos are.

Dark Angels are far superior for a number of reasons.
1. We are one of the original 20 legions.
2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour.
3. We have a purpose in life (find the fallen, who you aint supposed to know about), while BT just travel the galaxy mindless slaughtering anything with special powers.
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces.
5. ?????
6. Profit.

The only reason I would start dark angels as an army, is to do deathwing. But I love their fluff as well.

I prefer the whole templar fluff, crusading and such, and I like the idea of a full battle-brother training up scouts as apprentices, Its nice in that Its different. But hey, DA have that whole "dirty secret" thing going on. In conclusion, they are both way better than the Ultramarines .

Brother Azul wrote:

shakey787 wrote:Right ive never understood the whole emo thing people say about DA's, i always think Blood angels are emo's they have "daddy left me issues" then get angry start self harming so get locked in a dark room till battle then get dressed in black oh and they seem the sensitive types with there crying face masks etc.
DA's are solemn and monastic not self hating.
And on a crusade to redeem themselves (hmmmm who else loves a crusade)

True dat my robe wearing battle brother. Blood angels are more emo then emos are.

Dark Angels are far superior for a number of reasons.
1. We are FIRST among the original 20 legions.
2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour.
3. We have a purpose in life (find the fallen, who you aint supposed to know about), while BT just travel the galaxy mindless slaughtering anything with special powers.
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces.
5. ?????
6. Profit.

Corrected for you Brother.

Brother Azul wrote:
True dat my robe wearing battle brother. Blood angels are more emo then emos are.

Dark Angels are far superior for a number of reasons.
1. We are one of the original 20 legions. Maybel if you make a list like this it should start with something that isn't patently untrue. I can't even tell if you're bashing BA or BT anymore but since both are second founding they both are members of the original 20 legions. Eremiel was right to make his change, at least it's right.
2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour. running around wearing dresses is shared by whom, oh yes BTs, and the original legion armor of DA , black...weird
3. We have a purpose in life (find the fallen, who you aint supposed to know about), while BT just travel the galaxy mindless slaughtering anything with special powers.
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces. it's a good thing they put on all thier plot armor in Kadillus so that Boreas, Nester, Hephestus et al could get outsmarted by cypher and commit suicide
5. ?????
6. Profit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might have said
1. First of the Legions
2. More ancient plasma weapon than anyone else
3. Deathwing
4. Ravenwing
4. Ironwing
5. Disagree and we'll interrogate you.

Blood Angels are definitely not more emo than Dark Angels. They get insane not sad because their Primarch dies, as anyone with the Black rage thinks they are Sanguinus fighting Horus over and over. They don't go around keeping secrets in their robes, because some human convinced some initiates to betray them. They have their problems and deal with it like men. Black Templars are the cooler choice in my opinion the crusader feel is awesome.

Brother Azul wrote:
Dark Angels are far superior for a number of reasons.
1. We are one of the original 20 legions.

You've got the Dark Angels' name. The Black Templars still do what the Emperor told the legions to do.

Brother Azul wrote:
2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour.

As has been pointed out, who else gets robes/tabards?

Brother Azul wrote:
3. We have a purpose in life (find the fallen, who you aint supposed to know about), while BT just travel the galaxy mindless slaughtering anything with special powers.

Performing the Emperor's orders are purpouse enough. The ranting of less pious Chapters are not to be taken seriously.

Brother Azul wrote:
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces.

Good for you. Our High Marshal deviced the plan that defeated Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and all his friends, relatives and employees.

(As a side note, what's the source of this? I'm genuinely interested!)

Brother Azul wrote:
5. All hail the Black Templars, noblest and purest of Chapters. Rogal Dorn is every Space Marine's spiritual liege!

Brother Azul wrote:
6. Profit.

Indeed.

Eremiel wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:

shakey787 wrote:Right ive never understood the whole emo thing people say about DA's, i always think Blood angels are emo's they have "daddy left me issues" then get angry start self harming so get locked in a dark room till battle then get dressed in black oh and they seem the sensitive types with there crying face masks etc.
DA's are solemn and monastic not self hating.
And on a crusade to redeem themselves (hmmmm who else loves a crusade)

True dat my robe wearing battle brother. Blood angels are more emo then emos are.

Dark Angels are far superior for a number of reasons.
1. We are FIRST among the original 20 legions.
2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour.
3. We have a purpose in life (find the fallen, who you aint supposed to know about), while BT just travel the galaxy mindless slaughtering anything with special powers.
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces.
5. ?????
6. Profit.

Corrected for you Brother.

My thanks Brother.

1. We are one of the original 20 legions. Maybel if you make a list like this it should start with something that isn't patently untrue. I can't even tell if you're bashing BA or BT anymore but since both are second founding they both are members of the original 20 legions. Eremiel was right to make his change, at least it's right.

I am aware the BT are 2nd founding but Blood Angels are 1st founding are they not.

2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour. running around wearing dresses is shared by whom, oh yes BTs, and the original legion armor of DA , black...weird

BT wear tabards. Robes and tabards are different things.
TABARD ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabard
ROBE--------> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robe

The black armour was too conformist so we decided to change up.

4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces. it's a good thing they put on all thier plot armor in Kadillus so that Boreas, Nester, Hephestus et al could get outsmarted by cypher and commit suicide

Touché.

I might have said
1. First of the Legions
2. More ancient plasma weapon than anyone else
3. Deathwing
4. Ravenwing
4. Ironwing
5. Disagree and we'll interrogate you.

What is the Ironwing. I am not familar with that term. Although I cant argue with 2 or 5. Starting to wish i had of thought of them

Nicholas wrote:Blood Angels are definitely not more emo than Dark Angels. They get insane not sad because their Primarch dies, as anyone with the Black rage thinks they are Sanguinus fighting Horus over and over.

Oh so Blood Angels are insane??? Purge them lest they become pawns of Chaos.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
Dark Angels are far superior for a number of reasons.
1. We are one of the original 20 legions.

You've got the Dark Angels' name. The Black Templars still do what the Emperor told the legions to do.

We do what we are asked... sometimes...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour.

As has been pointed out, who else gets robes/tabards?

See my above answer on robes and tabards.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
3. We have a purpose in life (find the fallen, who you aint supposed to know about), while BT just travel the galaxy mindless slaughtering anything with special powers.

Performing the Emperor's orders are purpouse enough. The ranting of less pious Chapters are not to be taken seriously.

Am i less pious or are you over zealous??

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces.

Good for you. Our High Marshal deviced the plan that defeated Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and all his friends, relatives and employees.

Should we consider this one a tie due to the fact that neither of us manged to succeed in our task?

(As a side note, what's the source of this? I'm genuinely interested!)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Third_War_for_Armageddon

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
5. All hail the Black Templars, noblest and purest of Chapters. Rogal Dorn is every Space Marine's spiritual liege!

DEVIOUS MISCREANT! The AlmightyWalrus speaks lies and spins falsehoods. He must be purged. Wheres a Black Templar when you need one...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
6. Profit.

Indeed.

Yes some Blood Angels go insane do to a flaw in the geneseed, and the Inquisition knows it yet they aren't purged because they are completely loyal. No this does not mean they will be turned to Chaos as the visions the Black Rage gives them is fighting Chaos. The fact that they don't have to keep this secret from the Inquisition is just another reason why the secrets of the Dark Angels is unnecessary.

I wasn't being all that serious when i said purge them. To be honest I'd rather purge the Space Wolves. Rabid ferels they are. I'm a vampire at heart. (The Buffy/Angel kind, not the sparkly ones.)

If i were a member of the Ordo Hereticus I'd be purging the ass offa the DA's. But if i were then i would most likely be purging most things for far less. So its a situation you cant win...

Brother Azul wrote:

1. We are one of the original 20 legions. Maybel if you make a list like this it should start with something that isn't patently untrue. I can't even tell if you're bashing BA or BT anymore but since both are second founding they both are members of the original 20 legions. Eremiel was right to make his change, at least it's right.

I am aware the BT are 2nd founding but Blood Angels are 1st founding are they not.

I have somewhat of a bone of contention with the namesake chapters continuing to call themselves 1st founding. The chapters of the second founding were still part of the original legion, so either they are really first founding, or the namesakes are second. Since the 2nd founding was a total shake up of their organizational and doctrinal structure namesake legions like Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels were basically re-founded. So by technical canon, yes BA are first founding, but that means you are discounting the heritage of 2nd founding chapters that were original legion members. Just cause they have new names doesn't make them any less original legion members.

2. We get funky robes and green power armour, the best colour armour. running around wearing dresses is shared by whom, oh yes BTs, and the original legion armor of DA , black...weird

BT wear tabards. Robes and tabards are different things.
TABARD ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabard
ROBE--------> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robe

Yeah, I know the difference. that's why I said "dresses"

The black armour was too conformist so we decided to change up.

Umm, or to invade Caliban, wreck your homeworld and kill your brothers.

4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces. it's a good thing they put on all thier plot armor in Kadillus so that Boreas, Nester, Hephestus et al could get outsmarted by cypher and commit suicide

Touché.

I might have said
1. First of the Legions
2. More ancient plasma weapon than anyone else
3. Deathwing
4. Ravenwing
4. Ironwing
5. Disagree and we'll interrogate you.

What is the Ironwing. I am not familar with that term. Although I cant argue with 2 or 5. Starting to wish i had of thought of them

The Ironwing is from Epic mostly, it's basically everything that isnt DW or RW. In 40k its genrally made to be like an Armoured Company for DA.

AustonT wrote:I have somewhat of a bone of contention with the namesake chapters continuing to call themselves 1st founding. The chapters of the second founding were still part of the original legion, so either they are really first founding, or the namesakes are second. Since the 2nd founding was a total shake up of their organizational and doctrinal structure namesake legions like Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels were basically re-founded. So by technical canon, yes BA are first founding, but that means you are discounting the heritage of 2nd founding chapters that were original legion members. Just cause they have new names doesn't make them any less original legion members.

That's an interesting take on the issue. Don't know how well it would go down with the wider 40k community though.

AustonT wrote:Yeah, I know the difference. that's why I said "dresses"

Ah so you were using it as an all encompassing term. I'm with ya.

AustonT wrote:Umm, or to invade Caliban, wreck your homeworld and kill your brothers.

Think of it less as invading and more of a coming home and finding our house trashed by people we don't know, with which we proceeded to throw them out. Forcefully.

AustonT wrote:The Ironwing is from Epic mostly, it's basically everything that isnt DW or RW. In 40k its genrally made to be like an Armoured Company for DA.

So the iron wing a specific force? Say like combat squads all in Razorbacks or Tac squads in rhinos/landraiders.

Brother Azul wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:
4. We managed to defeat Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka without the help of 23 other chapters and 20 Imperial guard regiments and other assorted imperial forces.

Good for you. Our High Marshal deviced the plan that defeated Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and all his friends, relatives and employees.

Should we consider this one a tie due to the fact that neither of us manged to succeed in our task?

(As a side note, what's the source of this? I'm genuinely interested!)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Third_War_for_Armageddon

liquidjoshi wrote:Not Dark Angels because they are over perfidious nutcases?

Fixed that for you.




Templars won the poll!




On a side note: Templars are also part of the original Legions. In fact the Templars are the Veterans and Elite of the Fists Legion, which performed a bit better than the Dark Angels legion.

Dark Scipio wrote:

Templars won the poll.

Was there ever any doubt?

So much red text on this page... Giving me a headache.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Templars won the poll.

Was there ever any doubt?

Never, but you have to to rub it in.



Ceterum censeo Codexark Angels esse delendam

Watch the non-english language.

Brother Azul wrote:That's an interesting take on the issue. Don't know how well it would go down with the wider 40k community though.

Other than the pesky "founding" issue the legacy of ALL 2nd founding Chapters is in a Legion. That's straight canon, the first chapters that didn't fight in the Legions were 3rd founding as they were created rather than reorganized.

Brother Azul wrote:Think of it less as invading and more of a coming home and finding our house trashed by people we don't know, with which we proceeded to throw them out. Forcefully.

Or more properly coming home to find the guy who pays 50% of the rent in your house and attacking him for playing Journey on the radio.

Brother Azul wrote:So the iron wing a specific force? Say like combat squads all in Razorbacks or Tac squads in rhinos/landraiders.

Kind of, yeah. I honestly cant even remember if they were formally included in 40k. Generally the Ironwing is precieved like the RW all tanks, so the only playable way to do it would be to mech everyone. But the Epic rules didnt actually require you to take vehicles, you could run all tacs and devs and foot slog.

woodbok wrote:So much red text on this page... Giving me a headache.

Mission Accomplished. Actually I just couldnt read in blue or yellow and green irritates MY eyes.

Dark Scipio wrote:


On a side note: Templars are also part of the original Legions. In fact the Templars are the Veterans and Elite of the Fists Legion, which performed a bit better than the Dark Angels legion.

Actually, Black Templars were the most over-zealous and fanatical of the Fists,

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Templars

All the veterans and elite of the Fists stayed as Imperial Fists, which is probably what happened with all of the other legions as well.

AustonT wrote:Yeah the Army Painter thread was pretty epic. It still has my Trolldar pinging. You missed the "make my friend stop changing armies" thread started by our Dark Angels, no Blood Angels, no Tau, no Templar and bash DA...OP.

Um yeah it doesn't mean I change armies, for I am a collector. I collect, model, and paint better then I play by a long shot. I don't really need too big of an army if I don't play as much. I chose Lord of Baal for epic Blood Angel fluff. Tau pic because that is my first army, and Black Templars because I like their chapter a bunch. Come on, I know I don't make very good threads ad stuff but I am only a beginner and I don't really do forums that much. Can't you give a kid almost 10 years younger than you a break? Really, Inane?

Easy, Sisters... Earn your victories!

Black Templars are far superior for a number of reasons.
1.We are the most supreme crusade and the longest to survive.
2.We get awesome black power armour to hide in the shadows, the best color armour.
3. We also have a purpose in life, which is to die for the Emporer and slaughter everything that is of harm to him.
4.We have saved the Emporers life many many times, far more than you have.
5.??????
6.We don't even need profit, the Emporer thriving is an honer itself.
7. A lot of your reasons are opinions, so are mine.

I like Dark Angels slightly more.

Not even cloudy with a chance of meatballs. Oh wait i'm actually a vegitarian.

shakey787 wrote:look look cant we all just agree that space wolves are just terrible

QFE

I'm a hardcore BT player, but respect DA and like their style. Especially the Fortress of Redemption, such a sexy piece of terrain.

Awesome!

BT!

BT always and for ever!

Lord of Baal wrote:

AustonT wrote:Yeah the Army Painter thread was pretty epic. It still has my Trolldar pinging. You missed the "make my friend stop changing armies" thread started by our Dark Angels, no Blood Angels, no Tau, no Templar and bash DA...OP.

Um yeah it doesn't mean I change armies, for I am a collector. I collect, model, and paint better then I play by a long shot. I don't really need too big of an army if I don't play as much. I chose Lord of Baal for epic Blood Angel fluff. Tau pic because that is my first army, and Black Templars because I like their chapter a bunch. Come on, I know I don't make very good threads ad stuff but I am only a beginner and I don't really do forums that much. Can't you give a kid almost 10 years younger than you a break? Really, Inane?

Oh, just for fun I'll answer these backwards.
Yes inane, lacking in significance. See also banal.
Your not, "almost" a decade younger than than me you are "more than". And I won't give you a break because you misrepresent yourself (see further below) and I don't believe age should shield you from answering for your actions.
As for your explanation of your mismatched name and pic you changed your name when you army jumped, and now yakface wont let you change again to your interest of the week.
If you were a collector you wouldn't post looking for army list help and how to build DA, BA, then Tau. I can only assume "help starting a BT army" is only hours away.
I hope that clears up any confusion

AustonT wrote:
Oh, just for fun I'll answer these backwards.
Yes inane, lacking in significance. See also banal.
Your not, "almost" a decade younger than than me you are "more than". And I won't give you a break because you misrepresent yourself (see further below) and I don't believe age should shield you from answering for your actions.
As for your explanation of your mismatched name and pic you changed your name when you army jumped, and now yakface wont let you change again to your interest of the week.
If you were a collector you wouldn't post looking for army list help and how to build DA, BA, then Tau. I can only assume "help starting a BT army" is only hours away.
I hope that clears up any confusion

QFT

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I meant the source for the Dark Angels beating Ghaz, not the one where my own Chapter did. Sorry if I was unclear, I was considering rewording my post, but I decided that I'd rather kill me some heretics.

My mistake. The source for DA defeating Ghaz is the 'Purging of Kadillus' book. The Pincina IV PDF force was present but they didnt do much apart from hold Koth ridge and stand around get shot at.

AustonT wrote:Or more properly coming home to find the guy who pays 50% of the rent in your house and attacking him for playing Journey on the radio.

Well it's his own fault. Journey was the last straw.

AustonT wrote:Kind of, yeah. I honestly cant even remember if they were formally included in 40k. Generally the Ironwing is precieved like the RW all tanks, so the only playable way to do it would be to mech everyone. But the Epic rules didnt actually require you to take vehicles, you could run all tacs and devs and foot slog.

An all mech marine company could be an interesting army to run. I might just have to try it at some point.

AustonT wrote:

woodbok wrote:So much red text on this page... Giving me a headache.

Mission Accomplished. Actually I just couldnt read in blue or yellow and green irritates MY eyes.

Hate it when people post in blue. Makes it so hard to see.

Before there is a new DA codex I hate to even endorse this but a counts as BA force would work best. In apoc you could run DW and RW to get your DA characters and run the counts as for the fast tanks as an Ironwing.

Hey yeah that could work. I would have just put all the tac squads in rhinos and and devs and command in razor backs. But with your way i get access to Baal preds (hmm assault cannony goodness) and i can chuck in a Monolith or two because the Necrons would be counts as bros.

In a non apoc game i could run command and 4 combat squads and devs in razorbacks and 2 full tac squads in rhinos. Maybe feasible in a 2000pts match

Dark Angels. I have an innate hatred of High Marshall Helbrecht.

Love both of them.

Black Templars Fluff, Armour, Emperors Champion nuff said.

Black Templars have already been supreme, and always will be.

I dislike both, Black Templars are a 2nd founding chapter, and they have their own codex? What I don't even. "BT are so cool beans because they are crusading knights in space!" Well there is another army that are knights, in fact they even have "knights" in their name, their called Grey Knights. I dislike Dark Angels beacuse there is really nothing special about them then "we have a super special secret that were not gonna tell you hehe".

Also as an ork player, I have to hate both armies. Ghaz wrecked Beial, and Yarrick is using the Black Templars like tools to find Ghaz.

Lord of Baal wrote:Black Templars have already been supreme, and always will be.

DAMN YOU GRAMMAR NAZI!
This sentence is improperly constructed. The use of the past tense implies that the statement is currently not operative. The use of the infinitive implies that at some point the statement will be true.

Ultrafool wrote:I dislike both, Black Templars are a 2nd founding chapter, and they have their own codex? What I don't even. "BT are so cool beans because they are crusading knights in space!" Well there is another army that are knights, in fact they even have "knights" in their name, their called Grey Knights. I dislike Dark Angels beacuse there is really nothing special about them then "we have a super special secret that were not gonna tell you hehe".

Also as an ork player, I have to hate both armies. Ghaz wrecked Beial, and Yarrick is using the Black Templars like tools to find Ghaz.

Wrong. Templars and Knights are completely different.
Templars are zealous,
Knights are Puritans,

Dark Angels are nothing compared to black templars.
The Black Templars have an entire legion at their disposal.

Aren't being zealous and pure the piece of pie? And I don't much about Dark Angels, but I'm pretty going out on a limb saying the have entire chapters their disposal.

Ultrafool wrote:Aren't being zealous and pure the piece of pie? And I don't much about Dark Angels, but I'm pretty going out on a limb saying the have entire chapters their disposal.

theres a big difference.
The Purtains don't slaughter the innocent.
The Templars do, just because.

The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

Ultrafool wrote:The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

Asherian Command wrote:
That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

Even before Matt Ward took a dump on all of 40k fluff, the Grey Knights were well known for being used frequently in the role of exterminatus by the Ordo Mallius (Which means Order Mallet, in laten ), so yah, Black Templars aren't exactly unique. And you can't simply discount fluff because it's crap, what Matt Ward writes is what we have to go on, Emperor help us.

Dark Angels

1. THE first legion.
2. Best trained and most numerous terminators (Deathwing).
3. Most skilled riders (Ravenwing).
4. Supreme Grand Master of the DA has control over the DA and indirectly all the successor chapters (thats 7000 marines).
5. Travel around in a part of thier destroyed homeworld! (The Rock).
6.Their Primarch is still alive.
7. They have some of the oldest tech of any marine chapter.

For the Lion! Repent! For tommarrow you die!

While there is little data on a lot of the Dark Angels successor chapters it is presumed that they have access to a Legion of their own, as everyone is directed by the Supreme Grand Master.

Lets not forget that we have one of the most uncorrupted Geneseed as well!

Black templars has alot of good fluff and even more to build on.

But think dark angels has a better list of things to use in their codex, so better mix of tactics.

BT has a strong army even for an outdated Codex, but a well minded player can make them lethel.

I dont think dark angels are imo, rather if I should compare them I would say dark monks and BT's as knight crusaders just blinded by faith.
Could also say BT's are the ones doing the dirty work as they are rather ruthless and fanatics! while DA are on the verge of herecy.

Both look good in their own way, but when a much needed newer Black templar codex comes out, then im pritty sure they will have access to alot og new toys or same stuff as vanilla *maybe* who knows.
What they really need is a better hero version of Helbrecht. on the table and on paper his a joke. A customemized marshall can beat the chapter master 6 times over..... but enough about that.

I Like the history on both sides, DA with their dark secrets and pre herecy history.

1. But I like the BT the most, why? Because they turned the tide of war on armageddon, they took massive casualties even Helbrecht was wounded many times over and the loss of their champion made casualties go from bad to worse but still they took the skies and on the ground a chaplain made a name for himself by being the only surviver. Grimaldus hero of helsreach.

2. They are the second founding chapter of the imperial fists. All veterans of The siege of holy terra, Horus herecy.

3. After the reforming of chapters BT's vowed to find and slay all imperiums enemies on a vengefull crusade, that has lasted 10.000 years to date.

4. The Black Templars are also notorious for defying Codex doctrine that states that a chapter may only number 1000 battle brothers. This is partly due to the divided nature of the chapter, being spread out everywhere (similar to the Space Wolves) on separate crusades and no one has thus been able to keep track of their exact numbers. However, it has been estimated that there may be 5000-6000 Black Templars spread out around the galaxy - an almost unstoppable force if gathered at one place and cause for the Inquisition to keep a close eye on the Black Templars. But since they have showed no signs of herecy or ill will against the empire, the Inquisition has not stepped in. Infact they are the most fanaticly loyal of all chapters.

5. I like this one the most. after the battle of armageddon a certain commisar named Yarrick asked to join the crusade for the hunt of infamous Warlord Thraka and was accepted. Now Helbrecht and Commisar Yarrick on the hunt for thraka thats a nice untold story.

Now someone could go on with the list but this is purely fluff and background storie.

I will share this last thing before this thread becomes to long hehe. An incounter within black templars and dark angels, make of it what you will.

Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf

The Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf. This crusade was led by Castellan Raimer, survivor of the ill-fated Garon Crusade and commander of the Strike Cruiser Ophidium Gulf.
Raimer led the 90 marines aboard in a crusade in to a treacherous part of space in the Galactic South, known as the Veiled Region. Here they discovered some inhabited worlds. The primitive aliens living there worshipped a god they called the "Voice of the Emperor".

While trying to find out what the nature of this god was, Raimer destroyed the alien temples and moved on to the core planets of the system. While doing so, they discovered that most of the worlds had already met a destructive power greater than Raimer and his men. During their trek to the core planets the sensorium of the Ophidium Gulf detected a small fleet of vessels breaking orbit of one of the devastated worlds. Augers determined that these ships were of the Dark Angels Chapter.
After making contact with the fleet, Raimer offered the Dark Angels commander to fight alongside them to capture the alien's leader, the "Voice of the Emperor".

The Dark Angels commander was reluctant to accept the help of the Black Templars but did so anyway. During the last battle for the stronghold of the "Voice of the Emperor", Raimer's marines broke through the alien defences and captured the alien leader. This so called god was clad in ancient black Power Armour without any livery or panoply. Raimer now suspected why the Dark Angels were reluctant in accepting their help and fell back to his strike cruiser and chained the prisoner in the most secluded vault aboard. Almost immediately the Dark Angels demaned that the prisoner was to be delivered to them. Raimer first refused this but when the ordnance sensoria warned him that the Dark Angels fleet was bringing its weapons in readiness, he had to comply for his lone strike cruiser was no match for the fleet before it.

When the Dark Angels received the prisoner they broke orbit and left the system without a word.

The fate of the Ophidium Gulf remains a mystery. The last that was heard of it was a single communication when enroute to the system jump-point. There has been no contact with Castellan Raimer since.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ultrafool wrote:The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

They do alot more then that my friend. One incounter they had was to purge a planet from chaos, but since the grey knights are a secret faction. 3 other near by worlds was put to the sword to keep the secret of their existance. In the end they did more harm then good.
But as Tau likes to say it, for the greater good. we cant let just 1 deamon past to start anew.

Why should grey knights be a secret. because they allso protect mankind from the horrors of the universe, knowledge or the knowing included.

Asherian Command wrote:

Ultrafool wrote:The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

No. Armageddon I.

Lyzin Locrian wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

Even before Matt Ward took a dump on all of 40k fluff, the Grey Knights were well known for being used frequently in the role of exterminatus by the Ordo Mallius (Which means Order Mallet, in laten ), so yah, Black Templars aren't exactly unique. And you can't simply discount fluff because it's crap, what Matt Ward writes is what we have to go on, Emperor help us.

Yes but they originally didn't destroy entire damn worlds and systems. like seriously how the hell would anyone else know what is going on the planet next to them? Apart from they know that it is underattack. They wouldn't care they would just bolster their defenses.
But the Dark Angels vs Templars.
Angels win because of how many damn chapters they have under their command.
Templars would win in a straight up fight though.
Really matters what the OP perfers.

Asherian Command wrote:
But the Dark Angels vs Templars.
Angels win because of how many damn chapters they have under their command.
Templars would win in a straight up fight though.
Really matters what the OP perfers.

Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

Yes because I was there to lay the smack down personally.

So far Black Templars are winning...

AustonT wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

Yes because I was there to lay the smack down personally.

You get what I mean.

(Sorry if I came across as rude BTW, my social skills are abysmal, and internet doesn't help!)

AustonT wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

Yes because I was there to lay the smack down personally.

As a black templar player myself I will agree that Dark angels will have the same numbers if not greater then BT's. Also their hidden or stored caches of acients weapony will give them the edge in any battle fluff wise. On the table they are even better I think.
In view of Black Templar fluff is kinda funny when you think about it. If they used their terminators like I use them on the table, they would run out of terminator really fast. Point is they may not have access to the same stuff as DA but do often find new, Oh I mean ancient weapons long past forgotten like the Crusader pattan Land raider.

Lets not forget BT are also masters when it comes to fleet battles, and more so a 10.000 year long crusade will make them more battlehardned then most. In my opinion.

Still cant say who would be better but on the table it might be DA untill a new BT codex gets out.

AustonT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
But the Dark Angels vs Templars.
Angels win because of how many damn chapters they have under their command.
Templars would win in a straight up fight though.
Really matters what the OP perfers.

Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

Asherian Command wrote:
Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

That's quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard all day, and I'm married. The DA act as no less of a legion than the BT do. That's why Azrael is the "Supreme" Grand Master.

Asherian Command wrote:
BT win BT:2 DA:1

Since you presented nothing to support this but you own opinion, it's useless.

@AlmightyWalrus English is not my first language (either?), so I come off a bit gruff even having grown up in an English speaking society. Don't sweat it.

@akkados I don't know if I can agree with your last sentence. DA are pretty weak on the table, the codex is only like 6 months (if that) newer than BT and it was weak then. Both have suffered a little from 5ed, but in truth the BT is a solid codex that is still viable today, DA are not. Want proof? looks at who shows up worldwide to GT and Ard Boyz. BT are still well represented where DA are almost nonexistant.

AustonT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

That's quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard all day, and I'm married. The DA act as no less of a legion than the BT do. That's why Azrael is the "Supreme" Grand Master.

Asherian Command wrote:
BT win BT:2 DA:1

Since you presented nothing to support this but you own opinion, it's useless.

@AlmightyWalrus English is not my first language (either?), so I come off a bit gruff even having grown up in an English speaking society. Don't sweat it.

@akkados I don't know if I can agree with your last sentence. DA are pretty weak on the table, the codex is only like 6 months (if that) newer than BT and it was weak then. Both have suffered a little from 5ed, but in truth the BT is a solid codex that is still viable today, DA are not. Want proof? looks at who shows up worldwide to GT and Ard Boyz. BT are still well represented where DA are almost nonexistant.

Never said they where bad infact BT are still going strong but BT has lost alot what made them what they are. Space wolves or Blood angels can do all the stuff BT can and more. The only thing really making BT still BT is their fluff and the vow the champion gives.. but his all mighty str. 6 black sword is now the same as a relic sword of any vanilla chapter on so on. If you read higher up on another thread you would see I support both but learning towards BT, im not here to make a piss contest, its nothing but theories and opinions. Fleet wise BT is strong force in space and on ground, mainly because all crusader fleets have their home on flying fortress ships.

Now on the table both armies play to their strength mainly DA is a shooter army *is what I head* dont crush me if its not correct, while BT is a assault army. Funny thing about BT they can allso field a good shooter setup making up for the lack of 60% of what other vanilla chapters can use.

But now you bring it up im abit amiss why you dont see more DA's. guessing people like the other chapters more. the reason can be alot of things like they might look great on the table but fluff might hold people back. I for one do not like the look of dark eldar, except a few models.

But since I have never played DA's I would like to know what you guys think of them since you have played with or against them.

akkados wrote:Lots'o quotes and stuff

This might come across as a bit whiny, but please, it's BT, not BA. BA are the Blood Angels, a completely unrelated Chapter. Thanks!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

akkados wrote:Lots'o quotes and stuff

This might come across as a bit whiny, but please, it's BT, not BA. BA are the Blood Angels, a completely unrelated Chapter. Thanks!

Shoot! my bad ill correct that hehe honest typo, my head is full of dirt atm

AustonT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

That's quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard all day, and I'm married. The DA act as no less of a legion than the BT do. That's why Azrael is the "Supreme" Grand Master.

Not really see the Black Templars have a massive massive fleet and are known for being space warfare experts and boarding experts. If you gather their entire fleet in one place your looking at an armada with a ton of fortress ships.

Black Templars by a county mile.

They driven buy guilt just like the Dark Angels are. But...it's guilt borne of the failure to protect the Emperor; rather than having half their number turn traitor!

The Imperial Fist and by extension the Black Templars fought at Terra twice! First they fought to defend the Imperial Palace along with the Blood Angels at the Siege of Terra, and the second time assaulted the same Palace to free the Imperium from a madman during the Age of Apostasy. They were with the Emperor when he teleported to Horace's battle barge, and they were there when he fell. They've fought a un-ending 10,000 year long crusade. Never faltering, never wavering, never forgetting their duty.

1st founding or 2nd founding doesn't matter. Duty matters. Honor matters. The Eternal Crusade matters. But lets be clear one can not be overzealous in carrying of out His work.

Imperator Rex!

Nah nah nah hang on. Whats all this "Imperial Fists so by extension Black Templar's" Malarkey? I've seen this said a few times now ITT and I'll have no more of it. You cant claim the heroics of your progenitor chapter as your own. If you cant be better on your own merits then don't go stealing the merits of someone else. If we're gonna be claiming thing like that then I claim The Emperor so by extension Lion El' Johnson so by extension the Dark Angels reunited the warring tribes on Old Terra, Started the Great Crusade and found all the Primarchs. And because we are the Dark Angels so by extension Lion El' Johnson so by extension The Emperor my word is law and if you question it I will brand you a heretic and have you killed.


EDIT* - Starting to wonder whether i maybe just fed a troll or not... reads like a troll post... hmm.

Actually the founding members of BT WERE IF and WERE at Terra so they are claiming thier own heroics.

Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

Bjorn would like to say hi.

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

I thought the only Dreadnought to see the Great Crusade was Bjorn the fell handed. Are there others?

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

I thought the only Dreadnought to see the Great Crusade was Bjorn the fell handed. Are there others?

He's is the only one that is still loyal, IIRC. The fact that he is in Dreadnought armor extends his lifespan much farther than bionics can.

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

I thought the only Dreadnought to see the Great Crusade was Bjorn the fell handed. Are there others?

He's is the only one that is still loyal, IIRC. The fact that he is in Dreadnought armor extends his lifespan much farther than bionics can.

Do i really have to drag out my codex?
"Some dreadnoughts even remember when they were just recurits when the emperor walked with man."
Bjorn is the oldest in the fact he had been around since the beginning of the great crusade.
There were a few recurits at that time that lived onto be dreadnoughts and be honored to live for 10.000 years.

Im sorry, but the whole thing to DA is their stupid, stupid secret. So a few of them went traitor during the heresy, big woop. So they go ahead and make a huge deal out of it, and instead of dealing with it reasonably, they turn into giant green D-bags who are obsessed with a minute amount of heretics and would go against imperial forces to get them. Im sure chapters who have members that turn to chaos feel shamed, but they don't base their entire doctrine around it...

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Im sorry, but the whole thing to DA is their stupid, stupid secret. So a few of them went traitor during the heresy, big woop. So they go ahead and make a huge deal out of it, and instead of dealing with it reasonably, they turn into giant green D-bags who are obsessed with a minute amount of heretics and would go against imperial forces to get them. Im sure chapters who have members that turn to chaos feel shamed, but they don't base their entire doctrine around it...

plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Badass Crusade. 72 black templars that went on crusade by themselves.... in one ship...... And they took out an entire empire... Badass.

Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Brother Azul wrote:Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Damocles Gulf Crusade.....

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Damocles Gulf Crusade.....

Source?

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Damocles Gulf Crusade.....

Source?

Black Templars codex. Lexicanum just check it.
whoops wrong crusade
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf found it.
Ophidium Gulf.

Asherian Command wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf

You would think this would be the kind of interesting titbit they would put in the smegging DA codex would you not? To be honest i'm surprised we didn't just blow them up in the first place and go find him ourselves.

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf

You would think this would be the kind of interesting titbit they would put in the smegging DA codex would you not? To be honest i'm surprised we didn't just blow you up in the first place and go find him ourselves.

Yes because at that time the black templars would of been fully aware, and the entire imperium would of known from the transmission. Plus the black templars are great siege warfare experts. So the dark angels needed some help so they took it and then they killed them. But still thats heresy....

Where does it ever say that the Templars are siege warfare experts??

Sersi wrote:Black Templars by a county mile.

They driven buy guilt just like the Dark Angels are. But...it's guilt borne of the failure to protect the Emperor; rather than having have their number turn traitor!

The Imperial Fist and by extension the Black Templars fought at Terra twice! First they fought to defend the Imperial Palace along with the Blood Angels at the Siege of Terra, and the second time assaulted the same Palace to free the Imperium from a madman during the Age of Apostasy. The were with the Emperor when he teleported to Horace's battle barge, and they were there when he fell. They've fought a un-ending 10,000 year long crusade. Never faltering, never wavering, never forgetting their duty.

1st founding or 2nd founding doesn't matter. Duty matters. Honor matters. The Eternal Crusade matters. But lets be clear one can not be overzealous in carryng of out His work.

Imperator Rex!

Yes, but if the Emperor were alive, he would shun the Black Templars. He did not want to be revered as a god. He wished to be known as a man. The DA treat him as a man.

Thus, the DA are loyal, and the BT are heretical in the eyes of the God-Emperor.

Asherian Command wrote:Yes because at that time the black templars would of been fully aware, and the entire imperium would of known from the transmission. Plus the black templars are great siege warfare experts. So the dark angels needed some help so they took it and then they killed them. But still thats heresy....

Since when were the Black Templars great siege warfare experts? I'm pretty sure that the Dark Angels are better at siege warfare than the Black Templars are, since the Black Templar doctrine is to charge madly towards their foes and butcher them in close combat, which is something that you can't do in a siege. Where as the Dark Angels are meticulous planners, and never like to leap without first thinking thoroughly about how they should leap, and where, which is something that would make them very good at laying siege. They accepted their help simply because they had no reason not to, other than the fact that they are trying to keep their chapters secert, but how would they explain that to the Black Templars?

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

No, you said they couldn't claim the merits of thier progenitor CHAPTER. they have not. 2nd founding chapters have claim to the actions of thier legion prior to thier reorganization as chapters. It's not like they sprung up out of nowhere, the belonged to a legion. This is like me telling you that now that your grandfather is dead; you are no longer related to him, or anyone before him in your line. It's a touch morbid but there it is.

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

So...if they were IFs, but changed in agreement to RG's astartes and founded a second group...they no longer count their deeds because they are now under a different name? That sounds...well, trollish, as you put it before. Just, look at what you wrote. I don't get the opinion you're TRYING to troll...so just take a look at what you said. The chapter started with IFs who agreed to rework their armor/appearance/guidelines, but were still IFs, and future members embraced their forefathers' rules. As long as they give credit where it is due, they can claim their fathers' roles in their chapter heroics/actions (just can't lay personal claim to those actions).

Brother Azul wrote:Where does it ever say that the Templars are siege warfare experts??

Says the war they had where they discovered the land raider crusader

Nicholas wrote:They don't go around keeping secrets in their robes...

I don't keep secrets in my robes either, I show everyone I can before the police haul me away.

Both are great choices.

DA will most likely get a new codex first... but IMHO I prefer the 1st Legion to a 2nd Founding chapter

Asherian Command wrote:Says the war they had where they discovered the land raider crusader

You mean this war http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jerulas_Crusade?

If you read that page carefully, you'll find the part where it says, and I quote "The crusade became a long siege, a situation the Templars were not suited for unlike their founding-chapter the Imperial Fists." so you just disproved yourself, nice job

AustonT wrote:No, you said they couldn't claim the merits of their progenitor CHAPTER. they have not. 2nd founding chapters have claim to the actions of their legion prior to their reorganization as chapters. It's not like they sprung up out of nowhere, the belonged to a legion. This is like me telling you that now that your grandfather is dead; you are no longer related to him, or anyone before him in your line. It's a touch morbid but there it is.

OK yes they would have originally had Fists among their ranks. I can accept that they would have been able to claim merits that they had won as Imperial Fists, but once all the fists died out would the BTs truly still be able to claim the achievements as their own even though they themselves had no part in getting them?

timetowaste85 wrote:So...if they were IFs, but changed in agreement to RG's astartes and founded a second group...they no longer count their deeds because they are now under a different name? That sounds...well, trollish, as you put it before. Just, look at what you wrote. I don't get the opinion you're TRYING to troll...so just take a look at what you said. The chapter started with IFs who agreed to rework their armor/appearance/guidelines, but were still IFs, and future members embraced their forefathers' rules. As long as they give credit where it is due, they can claim their fathers' roles in their chapter heroics/actions (just can't lay personal claim to those actions).

Uh dude I'm not TRYING to troll any opinion. I'm TRYING to have a legitimate debate over which is the superior chapter for whatever reasons but its become increasing hard with people contributing posts like yours... But hang on your saying, and I'm gonna enlarge this so nothings missed, As long as they give credit where it is due, they can claim their fathers' roles in their chapter heroics/actions Lets say my dad fought in a war, any war pick a war, I have not fought in a war but since my dad did i am able to say with pride that I've participated in such n such war but only as long as i give my dad credit??? Now who's trolling eh?

Brother Azul wrote:

AustonT wrote:No, you said they couldn't claim the merits of their progenitor CHAPTER. they have not. 2nd founding chapters have claim to the actions of their legion prior to their reorganization as chapters. It's not like they sprung up out of nowhere, the belonged to a legion. This is like me telling you that now that your grandfather is dead; you are no longer related to him, or anyone before him in your line. It's a touch morbid but there it is.

OK yes they would have originally had Fists among their ranks. I can accept that they would have been able to claim merits that they had won as Imperial Fists, but once all the fists died out would the BTs truly still be able to claim the achievements as their own even though they themselves had no part in getting them?

So, pray tell me, why is it OK for the Imperial Fists to brag about their exploits during events in which they played no personal part but not for Black Templars to do the same? The Templars played just a big of a role in the events of the Heresy as the Fists. Just look at it this way: Pre-heresy there's the Imperial Fists legion. After the Heresy there's three Chapters: the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars. They are all Second Founding Chapters, the Fists simply got to keep the name of the Legion. By virtue of this, all three Chapters have bragging rights to what their Legion did before it split up.

Brother Azul think about more like this, your entire family fought in a war and when the general's advisers say your to powerful as a family, we're going to split you up. So therefor you can claim those actions because they are your actions as well!

Because the Imperial Fists are the ones who committed those exploits. Would you want someone who is a little bit like you, but who isn't you bragging about stuff you did?

How could the Templar's have played a part in the Crusade? They weren't a chapter until after the crusade. Unless of course you are referring to the original marines from the Fists who became the Templar's. They were the Imperial Fists Legion and it is my understanding that each Legion was made up of a certain amount of chapters. Its 2 successor chapters the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists were yes made up of Imperial Fists but since they are now part of a different chapter can they still call themselves by their former name? The Imperial Fists Legion are still the Imperial Fists Legion (well duh) they still have the same name, but are just going by a different strength designation as are all the founding Legions. Which is why I wouldn't count them as a second founding chapter. They have merely had two kids and given those two kids a large wad of marine shaped cash.

No the black templars were part of the imperial fists until they became the black templars. your talking like the Ifists made the templars!

Brother Azul wrote:Because the Imperial Fists are the ones who committed those exploits. Would you want someone who is a little bit like you, but who isn't you bragging about stuff you did?

How could the Templar's have played a part in the Crusade? They weren't a chapter until after the crusade. Unless of course you are referring to the original marines from the Fists who became the Templar's. They were the Imperial Fists Legion and it is my understanding that each Legion was made up of a certain amount of chapters. Its 2 successor chapters the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists were yes made up of Imperial Fists but since they are now part of a different chapter can they still call themselves by their former name? The Imperial Fists Legion are still the Imperial Fists Legion (well duh) they still have the same name, but are just going by a different strength designation as are all the founding Legions. Which is why I wouldn't count them as a second founding chapter. They have merely had two kids and given those two kids a large wad of marine shaped cash.

Except the Imperial Fists aren't a Legion anymore. The Imperial Fists are every bit as much a Second Founding Chapter as the Black Templars and Crimson fists, they just got to keep the name of the original Legion and much of the equipment. That doesn't change the fact that the Crimson Fists and Black Templars had part in the glories of the Great Crusade.

Let's put it this way: Assume that there was another Legion during the Great Crusade, called the Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness. They fought bravely against Chaos during the Heresy and won many triumphs. After the Heresy, this Legion was split into three: The Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars. Why would one of the three have exclusive rights to what they did together? Now replace Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness with Imperial Fists and ask the question again.

I hope that Glorious brothers of gloriousness isn't a new codex...it sounds like ultrasmurfs all over again

@azul I feel like I've walked as far down this road as I'm willing to go. There's some kind of hang up here where either you don't understand how the second founding worked and how Space Marine legacies are traced, or simply refuse to believe that you might be wrong.

Brother Azul wrote:Because the Imperial Fists are the ones who committed those exploits. Would you want someone who is a little bit like you, but who isn't you bragging about stuff you did?

How could the Templar's have played a part in the Crusade? They weren't a chapter until after the crusade. Unless of course you are referring to the original marines from the Fists who became the Templar's. They were the Imperial Fists Legion and it is my understanding that each Legion was made up of a certain amount of chapters. Its 2 successor chapters the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists were yes made up of Imperial Fists but since they are now part of a different chapter can they still call themselves by their former name? The Imperial Fists Legion are still the Imperial Fists Legion (well duh) they still have the same name, but are just going by a different strength designation as are all the founding Legions. Which is why I wouldn't count them as a second founding chapter. They have merely had two kids and given those two kids a large wad of marine shaped cash.

Ever heard of Sigismund? The founder of the Black Templars? He was also the 1st company captain of the Imperial Fists during the Great Crusades. Hell everyone under his command were future black templars. The Black Templars were in the war and they did fight at the palace and a few more engagements than the rest of the imperial fists. They survived and became templars.

No but the Imperial Fists still are the "Legion". Legion is only a designation of strength just like a squad is a strength designation of 10 men, Company 100 men, Chapter 1000 men. A Legion is made up of X amount of chapters. So therefore The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness weren't split into 3 new Chapters. They were split into 3 but only 2 were new. The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness are still the same Glorious Brothers just with the new designation of chapter instead of legion.

Brother Azul wrote:No but the Imperial Fists still are the "Legion". Legion is only a designation of strength just like a squad is a strength designation of 10 men, Company 100 men, Chapter 1000 men. A Legion is made up of X amount of chapters. So therefore The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness weren't split into 3 new Chapters. They were split into 3 but only 2 were new. The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness are still the same Glorious Brothers just with the new designation of chapter instead of legion.

That may be true (first part.)
But the black templars split from the fists because they were the most zealous not the newest, the newest were the crimson fists.

@auston - I have no problem being wrong and if someone can show me where i have gone wrong the please do.


I can also see that when arrayed against 4 or 5 (or more) people who no doubt all zealously agree on the same point that its more then a fair bet that i've missed something somewhere along the line. I have been told that i'm stubborn to a fault which has often been to my detriment. Now you all are more then likely sick of debating the issue with me and because i very much like the dakka community and would like to stay in good standing with its members I will, for my own good, back down on this occasion.

Brother Azul wrote:A Legion is made up of X amount of chapters.

False. The Chapters are what the Legions became.


It seems as if you're under the impression that the Black Templars and Crimson Fists somehow "branched off" the Imperial Fists, when what really happened was the Legion was split in three. The Imperial Fists Chapter shares the glories of their fighting during the Heresy with the Crimson Fists and Black Templars Chapters because they were the same Legion. Let me try again: If you win an Olympic gold medal for your country, but later in life settle down in another country, does that mean your original country doesn't have bragging rights anymore?

Second founding Chapters are different to Third and later founding Chapters in that they were part of the Legions. They thus have equal part in the bragging rights of what their founders did during the Heresy, while Third and later founding Chapters weren't originally made up of veterans of the Heresy. I'd thus consider any claims to glory by Third and later founding Chapters to be silly, because they didn't ever have the entire Chapter consist of the guys who actually did the things they take credit for.

Brother Azul wrote:@auston - I have no problem being wrong and if someone can show me where i have gone wrong the please do.


I can also see that when arrayed against 4 or 5 (or more) people who no doubt all zealously agree on the same point that its more then a fair bet that i've missed something somewhere along the line. I have been told that i'm stubborn to a fault which has often been to my detriment. Now you all are more then likely sick of debating the issue with me and because i very much like the dakka community and would like to stay in good standing with its members I will, for my own good, back down on this occasion.

Don't worry happened to me too. When it comes to fluff we are vicious like a panther or a puma i don't know which.

Still why the Black Templars or Dark Angels?

There are tons of badass chapters out there, like the Star Phantoms, Executioners, Caracadohns, helk alot of the badab war chapters were awesome.

there are alot of chapters to choose from.

Asherian Command wrote:
Still why the Black Templars or Dark Angels?

We've just been through "why the Black Templars", haven't we?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Still why the Black Templars or Dark Angels?

We've just been through "why the Black Templars", haven't we?

Yeah I know but those two chapters are famous there alot of other chapters that are just as awesome.

Why BA and DA harkens back to our army hopping OP.

Bottom line is they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Neither are "Better" or "Worse" than the other.

Thread all wrapped up nicely then eh?

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

No, I'm not trolling you. The Entire Imperial Fist Legion fought at Terra. The legion was divided after the Iron Cage into 3 chapters: Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and Crimson Fists. Okay, 4 if you count the Soul Drinkers. So, 1/3 to a 1/4 of what remained of the legion fought became Black Templars. Including our High Marshal who was 1st Captain of the Fists and second to Dorn himself. I'm not seeing how the BT's can't clam to have fought a Terra . Fact, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and Crimson Fists return to Terra to fight the Reign of Blood.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:

Yes, but if the Emperor were alive, he would shun the Black Templars. He did not want to be revered as a god. He wished to be known as a man. The DA treat him as a man.

Thus, the DA are loyal, and the BT are heretical in the eyes of the God-Emperor.

You know I here this allot. However, Templar's don't worship the Emperor as a God and more that say the Ultramarines do. The BT no he was a man, both their Primach and founding Father walked with him. But he is still the greatest man that ever lived in universe. They respect and honor him nothing more. Now, having said that how exactly are the Templars more heretical that the Dark Angels. The Emperor also said no sorcery. Well the Templars are the only chapter to follow that command by not allowing any Librarians.

I like both equally much.

The Dark Angels are the original knightly marines, inspired both by the real-world knightly orders like the actual Templar Knights and the secrecy of some of the catholic monkish orders. The combination of warrior-monks and secret agendas I do find very appealing.

The Black Templars emphasize another aspect of those sources of inspiration, the crusading knight, with a lot of holyness sourrounding them and their holy mission. The zeal in this is very cool, too.

Paint scheme wise, the Black Templar's is more striking, but also more bland on the whole. The Dark Angel scheme is somewhat deeper, and has a lot more variation.

Tactics wise I cannot really say, since I only ever played vs. Dark Angels.

I'm kind of biased with the Black Templars on this one since i've been reading more lore about them than the Dark Angels

Why do I get the feeling that Lord of Baal will change armies... again?

Aside from that, Black Templars. They are not heretics in dresses wallowing in self-pity.

People that 'wallow in self pity' don't hunt down others and torture them.

I once asked the question, "What would happen if the Dark Angels revealed their secret?"

Henners91 wrote:Everyone'd shrug and say 'who cares?'

Dustballs would roll past.

A lot of DAs would feel very awkward.

So yeah, if they just told the Imperium what happened right after the Heresy, I'm not sure they would be any worse off than they are today.

It depends on what part of the secret the imperium found out about. The “Fallen” stuff they wouldn’t care much about but the various acts of heresy they have committed afterwards in trying to protect that secret (like shooting at other SM chapters and stuff) might raise a few flags.

Luco wrote:People that 'wallow in self pity' don't hunt down others and torture them.

Yeah you are right. That is bitterness for their own failure. Thanks for reminding me from that also.

Ya know, something about the many dark angles armies that are nothing but like 8 ravenwing battle forces worth of bikes makes me wonder why there are so many votes for their tatics...

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Why do I get the feeling that Lord of Baal will change armies... again?

Aside from that, Black Templars. They are not heretics in dresses wallowing in self-pity.

Well he hasn't posted anything in a month.... he may have dropped out of the hobby already.

.

They're both awesome and I like them equally, but fro different reasons. So I ticked everything!

Dark angels. I dont think thats even close.

i have to say dark angels because the raven wing and the deathwing are awesome ways of play the army.