Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

This isn't going to end well.

There are lots of bigger fish to fry out there Chaos, Tyranids, Orks... the Tau are a minor problem not worth bothering with yet, by and large

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

Well, in a word, yes, it would be pretty easy.

But to elaborate on why they don't, the Tau simply aren't as dangerous to the Imperium right now as most of the other factions, maybe even all, and the Tau actually fight some of the Imperium's enemies, like the Orks and the Tyranids for example. This helps halt a more major threat, while also depleting a for the time being minor threat of its resources and of its soldiers.

They leave the Tau alone because much greater threats deserve their attention.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

Few decades worth of paperwork to go through before (if) the Imperium goes for the Tau in a big way... plus they are not a major threat and resources are usually required eslewhere.

Also if a certain Lady Inquisitors plan works (worked?) they can provide a useful speed bump for the Tryanids in that area of space and reduce the pressure on Imperial forces at least in this small bit.

The enemy of my enemy can be useful.....

Basically what other people have said. The tau just aren't as big a threat as the hundreds of other things that want to eat your faces. The tau don't even want to eat your face, so the IoM is loathed to spend the resources to take them out. Not when they don' have the troops to cover the wars they have now.

If the Imperium would wan't the whole Tau Imperium wiped out, it would be. But that would mean an large investation of resources and and military force (space marines are at an all out war all the time, or drinking beer and singing how they are the champions (space wolves), or at the worst combing their hair and mourning about how screwed they are (blood angels)). Imperial guard is too busy complaining about the space marines and killing them selves while their commanders are getting medals, and in the end getting rescued by the space marines . The Imperium of man mostly see the Tau as an nuisance and as an valuable resource (they have made few allies in their ranks). Obliterating the Tau Empire wolud only do harm to the Imperium (hive fleets would roam free, heretic numbers increasing, dark eldar raids would became more common etc.). But if I would be in the command of the Imperium, I would march an whole titan legion against the Tau just beacuse the sheer hell of it .

Coolyo294 wrote:This isn't going to end well.

I know brother Coolyo, I know...

Why would the Imperium kill of the Tau? Then who would fix the golden throne?

Wouldn't be "incredibly easy". It would be a hard-fought campaign involving significant resources.

These are resources the Imperium can't spare, especially when the Tau are one of the few groups out there not seeking the utter destruction of mankind. The 13th Black Crusade, 3rd Armageddon War, and Hive Fleets are all going on and are of much greater strategic significance.

The Imperium can't destroy the Tau right now. And I don't mean because they're militarily incapable of doing so. Rather, they simply can't allot the resources that would be necessary given how much gak is going on.

I heard a rumor that the only reason they let them live is as a speed bump for the tyranids.

Bigger threats and Tau forces have a habit background wise of punching above their weight. For example, in the Imperial Armour Taros book you get the distinct impression that they just use their superior range and mobility to wear the Imperial juggernaught down; whilst taking few losses themselves.

In Courage and Honour the Tau army has more crisis suits than Ultramarines. Granted those ultramarines have main character powers, but with plasma weapons other marines are going to take a lot of losses and they're next to irreplacable. battlesuits aren't

Titans. Well, in Taros they use an aircraft (forget name) to knock out a warhound and I doubt they would lack the means of knocking out the big titans. Otherwise it really would be easy for the Imperium. Perhaps a really big railgun.

Yes, the Imperium could nuke, virus bomb, exterminatus every enemy world in the galaxy but

A) It would be a very boring 40k universe if wars were decided this way. ie they didnt do this when the Sabbat worlds fell.
B) Why would you fight a war of conquest and not sieze a cluster of life sustaining worlds.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Yes, the Imperium could nuke, virus bomb, exterminatus every enemy world in the galaxy but

A) It would be a very boring 40k universe if wars were decided this way. ie they didnt do this when the Sabbat worlds fell.

Um... I'm pretty sure the reason they didn't call in exterminatus on any of the sabbat worlds was because they were the worlds conquered by a particularly popular and successful imperial saint and that these worlds are sacred to her memory and therefore by extension sacred to the emperor. I don't think accusations of boring warfare were at the forefront of Slaydo's mind when he petitioned for crusade command. Exterminatus is for lost causes only Ie nids about to ravage a planet or whatever.

It will, I'm sure, turn out to have been very easy for the Imperium (or whoever) to exterminate the Tau if the studio decide it's no longer worth their while supporting their line.

English Assassin wrote:It will, I'm sure, turn out to have been very easy for the Imperium (or whoever) to exterminate the Tau if the studio decide it's no longer worth their while supporting their line.

Nids will eat their homeworld. That is all. Nothing more. They will be a single setence. They will all be dead because the one world got eaten. They will be squats. That is all.

You never know, they might get something slightly better than that.

It might be Necrons, or Draigo, or a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

nomotog wrote:Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

The thickness of Tau (or, insert any race name here) plot armor directly corresponds to the popularity (and stock) of the figures.

Sales go low?, they will stay 'plucky' then go the way of the Squats once the stock falls below a certain level.

Sales stay average and the plot will contain many instances of the 'plucky' Tau pulling out one here and there or the IoM is simply too busy to swat them out of the galaxy (where we are now).

If, after a new codex the Tau see a popularity boom, expect the cow to be milked and watch the glorious Tau defeat degenerate IoM forces in a set series of battles spreading the greater good to its long-suffering citizens... *snore*

That's how things work. So, if you want to see any of these things happen vote with your wallet.

geez I'm cynical...

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

yep correct. The nids have yet to come in full force. And the tau lost a ton of their fleet.

Asherian Command wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

yep correct. The nids have yet to come in full force. And the tau lost a ton of their fleet.

So gorgon can still show up again then? Still two planets lost from you first nid attack it a good show. You know it seems like every time the tau get in a fight they lose most of there fleet.

Brother Coa: I salute your self control in this one!

Really guys? Another one of these

nomotog wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

yep correct. The nids have yet to come in full force. And the tau lost a ton of their fleet.

So gorgon can still show up again then? Still two planets lost from you first nid attack it a good show. You know it seems like every time the tau get in a fight they lose most of there fleet.

The tyranids are testing the Tau. they send a small strain to see what they can do then they come in with full force. These splinter forces are to see where it is the weakest and then they attack. They then attack in full force on that small little spot. the systems next to the tau empire are the Ultramarines, a few mechanius forge worlds, inqusition stronghold worlds. and hell the Death Watch Citadel. The tau are outmatched in this regard.

Nicholas wrote:They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

They had aid in one planet by a small Imperial force. They still out-adapted the Tyranids and bested them in multiple battles.

Ratius wrote:Brother Coa: I salute your self control in this one!

Thanks. I learned that threads with this kind of question is useless for any kind of debate.

Really guys? Another one of these

Yeah, now I understand Tau players....even so we are more hated, the Imperials.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Yes, the Imperium could nuke, virus bomb, exterminatus every enemy world in the galaxy but

A) It would be a very boring 40k universe if wars were decided this way. ie they didnt do this when the Sabbat worlds fell.

Um... I'm pretty sure the reason they didn't call in exterminatus on any of the sabbat worlds was because they were the worlds conquered by a particularly popular and successful imperial saint and that these worlds are sacred to her memory and therefore by extension sacred to the emperor. I don't think accusations of boring warfare were at the forefront of Slaydo's mind when he petitioned for crusade command. Exterminatus is for lost causes only Ie nids about to ravage a planet or whatever.

Um, thats exactly my point when I say directly below this that they wouldn't exterminatus the Tau Empire because their worlds are too valuable. The same with the Sabbat Worlds, they would be admitting that they screwed up big time letting a thousand worlds fall.

The Tau have also now drawn the attention of the Dark Eldar who assisted them against the Tryanids but with resons of their own that resulted in the depopulation of a Tau colony......and many new slaves/toys/emperimental subjects.

Genestealer Cults should also start showing up in the Tau Empire in a few decades......

Considering the Tau are being protected by something that was powerful enough to create on-demand warpstorms to stop the Imperium from virusbombing their nascent empire, I'd reason it might be wiser the IoM focus on more imminent dangers.

sirrah wrote:Considering the Tau are being protected by something that was powerful enough to create on-demand warpstorms to stop the Imperium from virusbombing their nascent empire, I'd reason it might be wiser the IoM focus on more imminent dangers.

Don't understimate the power of the pen of the game-design team is your point?

I guess this thread should tell you something. If anyone is going to rake out the tau, it's not going to be the IoM.

Well, at least we had two weeks without someone posting his Tau genocide fantasy

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the Tau if truly under threat just off? I mean, they've never seen the point in last stands and although sore about losing their worlds and colonies I imagine they'd do a Craftworld style let's get out of here!

Or they'd just let the Water Caste do their work and convince the IoM that every thing was fine and dandy, and how the thought that the Emperor was lovely.

nomotog wrote:I guess this thread should tell you something. If anyone is going to rake out the tau, it's not going to be the IoM.

Not unless you consider Matt Ward or Phil Kelley active parts of the IoM.

DivineSausage wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the Tau if truly under threat just off? I mean, they've never seen the point in last stands and although sore about losing their worlds and colonies I imagine they'd do a Craftworld style let's get out of here!

Or they'd just let the Water Caste do their work and convince the IoM that every thing was fine and dandy, and how the thought that the Emperor was lovely.

I never thought of that. It dose make sense for them to just get up and go. How well they survive well on the go would be for debate. I imagine a battlestar deal.

The water casts can't just convince the IoM that everything is fine. The tau do think the emperor is lovely, but the IoM just dosen't care. (there is a video on youtube of a tau and a SM talking, but I couldn't find it.)

At first I was confused, but then I realised the OP wasn't using the Tau's code name...speed bump

nomotog wrote:The water casts can't just convince the IoM that everything is fine. The tau do think the emperor is lovely, but the IoM just dosen't care. (there is a video on youtube of a tau and a SM talking, but I couldn't find it.)

By all accounts the Water Caste are exceptional negotiators though, right? I mean would it take much to inflict such a degree of fatalities on the IoM forces (Presuming they send IG) then negotiate with the Commander on the scene to some sort of peace treaty?

Imperial Worlds did previously fall to the Tau simply through propaganda.

Mind you I guess the full force of the Imperium could never truly be stopped. I just imagine, knowing the Tau, they'd come up with some crafty plan to avoid utter defeat.

DivineSausage wrote:

nomotog wrote:The water casts can't just convince the IoM that everything is fine. The tau do think the emperor is lovely, but the IoM just dosen't care. (there is a video on youtube of a tau and a SM talking, but I couldn't find it.)

By all accounts the Water Caste are exceptional negotiators though, right? I mean would it take much to inflict such a degree of fatalities on the IoM forces (Presuming they send IG) then negotiate with the Commander on the scene to some sort of peace treaty?

Imperial Worlds did previously fall to the Tau simply through propaganda.

Mind you I guess the full force of the Imperium could never truly be stopped. I just imagine, knowing the Tau, they'd come up with some crafty plan to avoid utter defeat.

The IoM is dedicated to killing the tau and everyone else. (when they get around to it) They might be able to forge temporary peace with the IoM, but the end game of the IoM is to kill all the tau.

Oh I found the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHhS5IkRR0 It really shows what I mean about not being able to negotiate with the IoM.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

They had aid in one planet by a small Imperial force. They still out-adapted the Tyranids and bested them in multiple battles.

The Tyranids out adapted themselves. Gorgon was doing some really strange hyper evolutions between battles (even for Tyranids), and only really were stopped when the IoM stepped in and gave them a hand. And they only did that because they know which was the bigger threat.

The Tau stil made some boneheaded moves, like falling for an incredibly obvious bait-and-shoot and lost more of the fleet than was necessary.

The imperium is so vast I do not think it could use its full force for any objective reasonably. Their military appears to be structured in a way that sub-sectors should be able to defend themselves unless they encounter a threat that is large enough to threaten other sectors (when sector military is called in).

What the tau have going for them is that they are a race that borders on being pure in ideology and that doesn't have traitors (unless they get their hands on a demon weapon). They are united. The imperium can't go a month without some part of it rebelling. Every once in awhile they have sector wide civil wars. The imperium is also really spread out. The tau empire is incredibly dense.

So you could say "what if the imperium pit all of its force against all of that tau's". Hands down the tau would loose. The problem is that the imperium would die immediately after that because of the rebellion and xenos incursions that would come from all other parts of the galaxy. So there are only a small amount of forces that the imperium can actually dedicate to the tau.

I am sure my fellow Tau players are going to throw me out of the club for this but - yes, the Imperium can eradicate the Tau.


In fact, the Tau are the only one of the Imperium's diverse enemies that the Imperioum could reasonably expect to totally annihilate if they chose to pursue the matter.

In numbers, the Tau are probably the smallest Xeno faction (though I'm not sure just how many Eldar/Dark Eldar are out there) and while the are tacticaly quite mobile, their very limited warp capabilities makes it possible for the Imperium to out manoeuvre them strategically.

I am not saying it would be a cakewalk. We are talking about several major inhabited systems plus what is likely numerous smaller outposts, each potentially equipped with some of the most advanced weapons and equipment in the galaxy (or was it the Eldar that were mst advanced, maybe it was the Necrons . . . that seems to change every book I read). Unless the Imperium launched a massively overwhelming concentration of force, whatever attack they launched would meet with significant casualties.

But yes, should the Imperium decide to do it, the Tau are definitely able to be wiped out.


So why haven't they . . . besides plot armour of course.


Well the first reason the Tau survive is due to the structure of the Imperium. When people say the Imperium should do this, or the Imperium should do that, they don't realize that the Imperium can't do anything. At least not in anything resembling a unified way. The Imperium has been restructured since the Horus Hersey in such a manner that no one man can ever gain sufficient power to be truly capable of major independent action. Everything is done through committees and coalitions of forces. This is primarily an internal security apparatus, but it has the effect of fracturing and dividing the energies of the Imperium in a counter productive way.

Sort of imagine it as if the US declared war on Syria but only the Texas National Guard, the 82nd Airborne and the FBI actually went to fight. That's what war with the Imperium is like. That is what allowed the Tau to survive the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

The second reason the Tau survive is that the Imperium has too many other problems. In addition to attacks by Dark Eldar, Demons, Eldar, Necrons, Orks and Tyranids from the outside, there are constant struggles with cultists, renegades and traitors within. While no one of these enemies are in position to wipe out the Imperium, but all must be actively suppressed lest they unleash major damage. The Tau are a lesser concern than these other powers at this time. Of course, by the time they rank among the great powers of the Galaxy (instead of just beign a regional power) it will be too late and the Imperium will not be in a position to take them out.


So yes, the Tau are definitely vulnerable to the Imperium deciding to wipe them out, however the Imperium themselves are too internally fractured and too preoccupied to likely be able to bring enough of their forces to bear on the Tau Empire to destroy them once and for all.

The Tau will be destroyed around the same time GW believes that the Tau no longer represent a profitable product line. The destroyer(s) and given reasons/circumstances surrounding the end of the Tau will be supplied at that time.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

Because .04% is a huge amount of guardsmen, tanks, titans, ect. They would rather spend a fraction of that holding them off while they deal with real problems like the Nids and chaos which both require 100%.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

...For the greater...good?

I figure it's one more instance of Sicarius getting ticked off away from happening, so long as Ward is writing the Ultramarines fluff.

@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

In the hundreds? So you mean, hundreds of thousands then.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

Do you forget the Damocles Gulf Crusade? It was fairly small by Imperial standards and managed to get to one of their major Sept worlds. They were winning according to Savage Scars, but were ordered to withdraw.
One main problem the Tau have is that their military isn't very big. They don't have the manpower.

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Lot of people agreed that there are more Eldar then Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:
Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

What are you guys talking about! The Tau could take the IoM easily. There would be no contest. They after all have the best technology Evar!!

Brother Coa wrote:

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Lot of people agreed that there are more Eldar then Tau.

There's trillions? I thought there was only about 20 craftworlds and a few dozen maiden worlds. Care to correct me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bwolf999 wrote:What are you guys talking about! The Tau could take the IoM easily. There would be no contest. They after all have the best technology Evar!!

Trolling isn't necassary.

If Sicarius can beat them back, then the Templars would obliterate the blue wimps.

But they're Tyranid food, let's be honest here.

Bwolf999 wrote:What are you guys talking about! The Tau could take the IoM easily. There would be no contest. They after all have the best technology Evar!!

TrollPie wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Lot of people agreed that there are more Eldar then Tau.

There's trillions? I thought there was only about 20 craftworlds and a few dozen maiden worlds. Care to correct me?

Any supposed 'final statement" about their numbers are conjecture mostly. We don't have the numbers for any race, especially not the Tau, Eldar or Dark Eldar. We can speculate that there could be billions or trillions due to the immense size of their realms. There may only be 20 Craftworlds, bu they're still Craftworlds, enormous space faring continents. Cammoragh is likewise big, a sprawling mass on uncounted smaller realms connected by portals between sections of the Webway, with many hidden layers and towers reaching as high as mountains.

Trololololol

I honestly think the Tau could put up a pretty good challenge to Imperial Forces. I mean, they're adapting at an incredible rate. If I remember right they are also in the 3rd phase of expansion, plus no one's really sure what Farsight is up to now fluff wise. I mean, the Eldar have suggested the Tau will inherit the Galaxy. They've fought the Imperium, Nids, and Orks on a massive scale and have changed tactics and equipment after all major encounters.

Plus their idea of warfare is massively different from the IoM's. Given the lack of importance of land to a Tau Commander and they're rapidly improving Stealth Suit technology, I imagine the invasion of a Sept world would be a mass of hit and run insurgency tactics, which we all know fluff wise the IoM is famously slow to react too. I mean how long would it take for the IoM to raise a force large enough to seriously conquer the entire Tau Empire? Then given the amount of Tau sympathisers in IoM worlds that have had contact with the Tau they're intelligence on the pending invasion would be plentiful.

I know militarily on a big massive battlefield the Tau would be slaughtered. But that's just not their idea of warfare, they don't see the need for heroic last stands often seeing them as signs of a stupid Commander. I just honestly think they'd have some get-away plan that might not involve beating the IoM but would certainly avoid their extinction.

As for numbers I'm pretty sure the Tau are more numerous than the Eldar, given the fact the Eldar rely on a dozen or so Craft-worlds that are rarely in contact with each other and some we aren't even sure if still in existence.

Ok, to this I must comment...

DivineSausage wrote:I honestly think the Tau could put up a pretty good challenge to Imperial Forces. I mean, they're adapting at an incredible rate. If I remember right they are also in the 3rd phase of expansion, plus no one's really sure what Farsight is up to now fluff wise. I mean, the Eldar have suggested the Tau will inherit the Galaxy.

And we all know how their "prophecies" get in the end ( Taldeer, Eldrad, Idranel... )

They've fought the Imperium, Nids, and Orks on a massive scale and have changed tactics and equipment after all major encounters.

So Great Crusade, 3'rd Armageddon war and Battle for Macragge were small engagements?

Plus their idea of warfare is massively different from the IoM's. Given the lack of importance of land to a Tau Commander and they're rapidly improving Stealth Suit technology, I imagine the invasion of a Sept world would be a mass of hit and run insurgency tactics, which we all know fluff wise the IoM is famously slow to react too. I mean how long would it take for the IoM to raise a force large enough to seriously conquer the entire Tau Empire? Then given the amount of Tau sympathisers in IoM worlds that have had contact with the Tau they're intelligence on the pending invasion would be plentiful.

Technology is not much when you are overwhelmed with enemies from all sides ( Germans in WW2 ). And Imperium can react fast, just see Nimbosa - Black Templars arrived just in nick of time and turn the tide. And why would Imperium attack Tau Empire when they have bigger treats right now ( like Tau are more important then Chaos or Tyranids anyway... ).

I know militarily on a big massive battlefield the Tau would be slaughtered. But that's just not their idea of warfare, they don't see the need for heroic last stands often seeing them as signs of a stupid Commander. I just honestly think they'd have some get-away plan that might not involve beating the IoM but would certainly avoid their extinction.

Because Tau never defended a world that was that much important to them. I bet if T'au got attacked they would defend it to the last Fire Warrior. Every Cadian would die to the last to defend Cadia, Vostroyan to, Kriegian to... And they would all give their lives to defend Terra. And I remember Tau army standing their ground to Gorgon to allow their non-combat personnel ( since Tau don't have civilians ) to evacuate a planet. If that is not Last Stand I don't know what it is.

As for numbers I'm pretty sure the Tau are more numerous than the Eldar, given the fact the Eldar rely on a dozen or so Craft-worlds that are rarely in contact with each other and some we aren't even sure if still in existence.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Again, we agreed that Eldar are more numerous then Tau. Simply because 1 medium sized Craftworld is size of Earth and they have unknown numbers of Exodite worlds + There are more than 20 Craftworlds out there ( not sure how much, but giving the liberty of every player to create it's own - not little ). While Tau have a little over 100 worlds, wit h only 26 of them with heavy population.

I am sorry if I offended someone but I simply had to answer to this...

I think of the Tau Empire as being the (numerical) size of 30 Imperial civilised worlds. Tiny in the grand scheme of things, but not easy to take. Too many people assume that since the IoM is massive, it can deploy unlimited force wherever and whenever it wants-in reality delays in communication, deliberation and transportation mean that only a handful of Imperial worlds can be called upon at any given time to combat a threat, with the full might of the Imperium taking months or years to be deployed.

Kroothawk wrote:Well, at least we had two weeks without someone posting his Tau genocide fantasy

I feel I should point out that I neither hate the Tau nor wish to see them destroyed; indeed I'd be pleased to see more minor xenos factions expanded upon and made playable.

TrollPie wrote:I think of the Tau Empire as being the (numerical) size of 30 Imperial civilised worlds. Tiny in the grand scheme of things, but not easy to take. Too many people assume that since the IoM is massive, it can deploy unlimited force wherever and whenever it wants-in reality delays in communication, deliberation and transportation mean that only a handful of Imperial worlds can be called upon at any given time to combat a threat, with the full might of the Imperium taking months or years to be deployed.

Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

TrollPie wrote:Too many people assume that since the IoM is massive, it can deploy unlimited force wherever and whenever it wants

That is because someone wrote that Imperium have "millions of Regiments" all across the galaxy.

in reality delays in communication, deliberation and transportation mean that only a handful of Imperial worlds can be called upon at any given time to combat a threat, with the full might of the Imperium taking months or years to be deployed.

When this is a reality, less than 1% of Imperium true fighting force is not under arms. And for any of organised crusade or campaign you must train men, arm men, gather supplies, gather ships and only after all that you can send them to a campaign.

Brother Coa wrote:

Plus their idea of warfare is massively different from the IoM's. Given the lack of importance of land to a Tau Commander and they're rapidly improving Stealth Suit technology, I imagine the invasion of a Sept world would be a mass of hit and run insurgency tactics, which we all know fluff wise the IoM is famously slow to react too. I mean how long would it take for the IoM to raise a force large enough to seriously conquer the entire Tau Empire? Then given the amount of Tau sympathisers in IoM worlds that have had contact with the Tau they're intelligence on the pending invasion would be plentiful.

Technology is not much when you are overwhelmed with enemies from all sides ( Germans in WW2 ). And Imperium can react fast, just see Nimbosa - Black Templars arrived just in nick of time and turn the tide. And why would Imperium attack Tau Empire when they have bigger treats right now ( like Tau are more important then Chaos or Tyranids anyway... ).

Technology is extremely important in these circumstances. A single machine gun could hold a pass againt waves of spear-armed tribesmen, a single Titan could hold a pass against waves of Orks...

I know militarily on a big massive battlefield the Tau would be slaughtered. But that's just not their idea of warfare, they don't see the need for heroic last stands often seeing them as signs of a stupid Commander. I just honestly think they'd have some get-away plan that might not involve beating the IoM but would certainly avoid their extinction.

Because Tau never defended a world that was that much important to them. I bet if T'au got attacked they would defend it to the last Fire Warrior. Every Cadian would die to the last to defend Cadia, Vostroyan to, Kriegian to... And they would all give their lives to defend Terra

That's a major flaw in Imperial tactics. They place too much importance on territory. If a regiment of Vostroyans held the enemy off so the rest could evacute, it would save lives. If they decided to stand their ground and be annihalated, it would be a waste. If trillions of Guardsmen headed back to defend Terra, the Imperium would be destroyed by the sudden loss of manpower-if they instead sent a more proportionate number to combat the threat, the Astronomican wouldn't fall and the Imperium wouldn't be left defenseless. If Cadia was going to fall, evacuation would serve more purpose than a heroic last stand.
The Tau will willingly give up planets so their army can better prepare themeselves and save more than they would otherwise lose- even if it meant a beloved planet such as T'au would be destroyed. After all, once the threat is dealt with they can get the planet back. If they faced annihalation, they could evacuate in Craft World-esque ships. Numbers matter far more to Tau than territory.

Brother Coa wrote:
Technology is not much when you are overwhelmed with enemies from all sides ( Germans in WW2 ). And Imperium can react fast, just see Nimbosa - Black Templars arrived just in nick of time and turn the tide. And why would Imperium attack Tau Empire when they have bigger treats right now ( like Tau are more important then Chaos or Tyranids anyway... ).

The BT arrived really late at nimbrosa. They weren't there when the tau invaded and killed everyone. 4 months latter the IG tried to take the planet back and the tau killed them all again. The BT didn't even make it before bright sword was recalled for killing everyone. That is a slow response. I feel the need to post this because you keep bringing up nimbrosa and you keep getting the facts wrong.

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

The Crusade was an utter failure. Being stopped as soon as it reached it's first Sept world, on its first encounter with a sizeable Tau force.

Edit: By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

That's under the assumption that they can defeat the force that throws them off of their planet. They aren't fantastic in Space battles after all.
Terra is far too important, there's certainly nothing wrong with sending every available force to defend it. Its far too important to lose due to lack of forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

The Crusade was an utter failure. Being stopped as soon as it reached it's first Sept world, on its first encounter with a sizeable Tau force.

Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

TrollPie wrote:
Technology is extremely important in these circumstances. A single machine gun could hold a pass againt waves of spear-armed tribesmen, a single Titan could hold a pass against waves of Orks...

That is true, but I will just quote Kan "Yes, 1 Hammerhead could nail down 1 Leman Russ, to bed the other 12 will nail down that Hammerhead."
What you said was true, but both Titan and Machine Gun would be overwhelmed in the end because of the sheer numbers existing in 40k ( I mean just see at Orks and Tyranids, they are numberless. Humans to.. ). Like Germans in WW2, 1 Tiger is stronger then 1 T-34, but on one Tiger came 20 T-34's.

That's a major flaw in Imperial tactics. They place too much importance on territory. If a regiment of Vostroyans held the enemy off so the rest could evacute, it would save lives. If they decided to stand their ground and be annihalated, it would be a waste. If trillions of Guardsmen headed back to defend Terra, the Imperium would be destroyed by the sudden loss of manpower-if they instead sent a more proportionate number to combat the threat, the Astronomican wouldn't fall and the Imperium wouldn't be left defenseless. If Cadia was going to fall, evacuation would serve more purpose than a heroic last stand.
The Tau will willingly give up planets so their army can better prepare themeselves and save more than they would otherwise lose- even if it meant a beloved planet such as T'au would be destroyed. After all, once the threat is dealt with they can get the planet back. If they faced annihalation, they could evacuate in Craft World-esque ships. Numbers matter far more to Tau than territory.

That is. But I was talking about civilian population... And of course, every man would die for his homeplanet. And every Human would die for Terra.

The DGC is a total continuity snarl. Depending on what you read, you will find completely different force lists and results. Some accounts say that the IoM took 2 regiments and flatten the tau. Others will give the IG 17 regiments a titan and still have them lose so badly that they leave there people behind. It all depends on what version you read.

DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

Edit: By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

That's until they retook the planet, right?

nomotog wrote:
The BT arrived really late at nimbrosa. They weren't there when the tau invaded and killed everyone. 4 months latter the IG tried to take the planet back and the tau killed them all again. The BT didn't even make it before bright sword was recalled for killing everyone. That is a slow response. I feel the need to post this because you keep bringing up nimbrosa and you keep getting the facts wrong.

Oh, I always tought that BT arrived when Tau started killing civilians. My bad...that was really slow then.
But 13'th Black Crusade and 3'rd Armageddon war was quick response by the Imeprium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DivineSausage wrote:By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

Yeah, but that BrightSword was a LITTLE Xenofobic. I mean killing every last men, woman and child that can't fight back was all for the Grater Good, right?

iproxtaco wrote:Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

"The crusade fought its way across Dal'yth Prime but were gradually worn down by the Tau until they found themselves stalemated a long way from their bases." - Tau Codex

The Tau then negotiated with the Imperium, allowing them to leave and reclaimed all lost territory.

Again codex vs. BL novel... Why can't people work together when writing stuff?

Brother Coa wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

Yeah, but that BrightSword was a LITTLE Xenofobic. I mean killing every last men, woman and child that can't fight back was all for the Grater Good, right?

Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

iproxtaco wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

Edit: By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

That's until they retook the planet, right?

My codex stops talking after brightsword gets recalled. I believe there is a book that describes the BT taking back the planet.

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
The BT arrived really late at nimbrosa. They weren't there when the tau invaded and killed everyone. 4 months latter the IG tried to take the planet back and the tau killed them all again. The BT didn't even make it before bright sword was recalled for killing everyone. That is a slow response. I feel the need to post this because you keep bringing up nimbrosa and you keep getting the facts wrong.

Oh, I always tought that BT arrived when Tau started killing civilians. My bad...that was really slow then.
But 13'th Black Crusade and 3'rd Armageddon war was quick response by the Imeprium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DivineSausage wrote:By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

Yeah, but that BrightSword was a LITTLE Xenofobic. I mean killing every last men, woman and child that can't fight back was all for the Grater Good, right?

Probably because the eastern fringe is on the fringe. You never get good responses out in the wild.

Ya brightsword is a real evil guy (he is farsights apprentice). I believe most accounts end with him being killed by the tau. Some have sadowsun killing him, some have the tau sending a kill team after him. He is kind of the exception that proves the rule.

DivineSausage wrote:
Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

True, but he was not as hardcore as Black Templars who retake the planet in shorter time it takes the Tau to conquer it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

The ground campaign was a stalemate - they were advancing but not really 'winning'. What did them in was fleet situation, Imperial fleet was badly hammered and not fit for another round of combat.

Of course, after the Crusade, Tau Empire has grown about twice as large and militarily much more capable, particularly in regards of spacefleet.

Brother Coa wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:
Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

True, but he was not as hardcore as Black Templars who retake the planet in shorter time it takes the Tau to conquer it.

Fresh faced BT against war-weary commanderless Tau? Hardly a fair fight

Seriously though I know the BT took it back quickly and efficiently but I still think it can be counted as a victory for the IoM. All I'm saying, it certainly wasn't a victory for the Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:
Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

True, but he was not as hardcore as Black Templars who retake the planet in shorter time it takes the Tau to conquer it.

You have any actual base for that statement or are you just saying things?

DivineSausage wrote:
Fresh faced BT against war-weary commanderless Tau? Hardly a fair fight

"Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison." - Lexicanum, Nimbosa Crusade.

You are wrong ... they had leaders until Matt Ward chosen ones make short work of them

Brother Coa wrote:"Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison." - Lexicanum, Nimbosa Crusade.

You are wrong ... they had leaders until Matt Ward chosen ones make short work of them

I meant Brightsword. The eager beaver who gunned every thing down in the 1st place.

I thought it was BT who took it back? (see this is what I mean by snarl)

nomotog wrote:
You have any actual base for that statement or are you just saying things?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nimbosa_Crusade

While Tau slowly destroyed every stronghold inch by inch Black Templars assaulted space station with lighting speed while Ultramarines Terminators teleported ( supposedly ) and take care of anti-air and Tau commanders. I call that faster.

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
You have any actual base for that statement or are you just saying things?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nimbosa_Crusade

While Tau slowly destroyed every stronghold inch by inch Black Templars assaulted space station with lighting speed while Ultramarines Terminators teleported ( supposedly ) and take care of anti-air and Tau commanders. I call that faster.

That is fast. I kind of have to put a question mark on the lexicanum's account of things. It seems that there where only two attacks. The one where the tau took the planet and the one where ths IoM counter attacked. In the tau codex the IoM is killed off in the second attack. Mean while the lexicanum says that the SMs killed all the tau in the second attack. So who knows how it worked out. Like I said. It's all one big snarl.

Well then it's settled. While the IoM is militarily stronger than the Tau they are yet to achieve a total victory against them.

DivineSausage wrote:Well then it's settled. While the IoM is militarily stronger than the Tau they are yet to achieve a total victory against them.

This will never be settled. Not even after it's settled.

nomotog wrote:
That is fast. I kind of have to put a question mark on the lexicanum's account of things. It seems that there where only two attacks. The one where the tau took the planet and the one where ths IoM counter attacked. In the tau codex the IoM is killed off in the second attack. Mean while the lexicanum says that the SMs killed all the tau in the second attack. So who knows how it worked out. Like I said. It's all one big snarl.

Actually there were 3 battles.

1'st one were Tau slaughtered everyone.
2'nd one were Tau slaughtered Imperial Fist and
3'rd one were Black Templars and Ultramarines slaughtered Tau.

I to didn't know until today that Ultramarine Terminator were there to...

This again?

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
That is fast. I kind of have to put a question mark on the lexicanum's account of things. It seems that there where only two attacks. The one where the tau took the planet and the one where ths IoM counter attacked. In the tau codex the IoM is killed off in the second attack. Mean while the lexicanum says that the SMs killed all the tau in the second attack. So who knows how it worked out. Like I said. It's all one big snarl.

Actually there were 3 battles.

1'st one were Tau slaughtered everyone.
2'nd one were Tau slaughtered Imperial Fist and
3'rd one were Black Templars and Ultramarines slaughtered Tau.

I to didn't know until today that Ultramarine Terminator were there to...

That makes sense. just the lexicon dosen't say that, so I am not trusting it on this topic.

There were indeed 3 battles on Nimbosa. As stated, Tau conquering, Tau defending, Tau pushed off world.

The forcec (nids, orks, varios xenos, etc. etc.) the Tau hold of is grater then the damage the Taus cause. The tau are described as the most peacful nation in the galaxy. And the fuel and effort the IoM would have too put in to extermiate the Tau is much grater then the Reward. Cource, they could V-bomb them or exterminatus them but that would ruin the worlds wich they came for in the frist place.

MrTau wrote:The forcec (nids, orks, varios xenos, etc. etc.) the Tau hold of is grater then the damage the Taus cause. The tau are described as the most peacful nation in the galaxy. And the fuel and effort the IoM would have too put in to extermiate the Tau is much grater then the Reward. Cource, they could V-bomb them or exterminatus them but that would ruin the worlds wich they came for in the frist place.

I am eager to hear the full results of the latest expansion phase. I may dust off my Tau with the next codex. They certainly are slightly out of place compared to the other races.

MrTau wrote:The forcec (nids, orks, varios xenos, etc. etc.) the Tau hold of is grater then the damage the Taus cause. The tau are described as the most peacful nation in the galaxy. And the fuel and effort the IoM would have too put in to extermiate the Tau is much grater then the Reward. Cource, they could V-bomb them or exterminatus them but that would ruin the worlds wich they came for in the frist place.

Exactly, the Imperium don't want to destroy the Tau because that would require forces that are needed elsewhere. So Imperium is trying by all means to keep peace with them. But Tau Empire have broken that peace treaty in several occasions, and Imperium has always used a little force and after that try to implement peace talks ( well that didn't work only at Taros ).

<Inappropriate image removed. This is not the first time you've been warned over posting things like this>

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

Xenos factions (ie playable races) in alphabetical order:

Dark Eldar
Eldar
Necrons
Orks
Tau
Tyranids

By my count that's 6.


Your own estimate puts 4 of those factions ahead of the Tau in numbers and another faction could be or couldn't be larger.

So how are the Tau one of the largest? By your own admission they are 5th or 6th on a list of 6 playable factions.

Also, the Warp storms subsided quite some time ago. Otherwise the Tau would never have expanded as much as they have.


In the Tau's favour, they do have a degree of density, and their willingness to cede territory to preserve lives (The Tau were fighting a delaying action against the Damocles Gulf Crusade, not a defence) make them a tough nut to crack by the less than coordinated and sustained efforts the Imperium seems able to muster. However, should the Imperium get their Grox in a row they would have no difficulties taking down the Tau, especially if they had no desire to actually take the Tau Sept Worlds intact.

Of course, if the Imperium devoted the appropriate amount of resources to taking out the Tau one would expect the forces of Chaos to strike the Empire a crippling blow that guaranteed it's destruction. Otherwise the Tyranids, no longer being held in check by forces along the boarder of the galaxy and by the Tau Empire itself might break into the heart of the galaxy. Of course, the Orks may be able to gain the breathing room to launch a great Waaagh! through the Imperium in the meantime.

So yes, the Imperium can crush the Tau, but doing so is probably going to doom the Imperium.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:That's under the assumption that they can defeat the force that throws them off of their planet. They aren't fantastic in Space battles after all.
Terra is far too important, there's certainly nothing wrong with sending every available force to defend it. Its far too important to lose due to lack of forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

The Crusade was an utter failure. Being stopped as soon as it reached it's first Sept world, on its first encounter with a sizeable Tau force.

Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

Actually the Tau weren't intending to hold the world, just delay the Imperial forces long enough to evacuate and for their fleet to arrive.

Jefffar wrote:
So yes, the Imperium can crush the Tau, but doing so is probably going to doom the Imperium.

I actually doubt this very much. They'll likely lose more than they'll gain as a consequence (at least for a time) but the Imperium does not appear to be that overstretched that any such effort would result in its destruction. According to Lexicanum, the Sabbat Worlds consist of over 100 star systems, which I think is larger than the Tau Empire but was still retaken by the Imperium.

Well we don't know who wins that one yet.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well we don't know who wins that one yet.

They're still using far more resources than they sent against the Tau though, right?

The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

UselessSage wrote:

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

They uses their happy, glowing, anti-grimdarkness to grow pretty trees and flowers on every planet they land on. This is why the Imperium is so annoyed when they take back a planet from the Tau they have to burn it all down and replace it with skulls.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well we don't know who wins that one yet.

They're still using far more resources than they sent against the Tau though, right?

Probably about the same, but it's another example of why they can't deal with the Tau. An entire region of the galaxy falling to the arch enemy is just a bigger priority.

UselessSage wrote:

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

That would suggest terrforming.

Nicholas wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

They uses their happy, glowing, anti-grimdarkness to grow pretty trees and flowers on every planet they land on. This is why the Imperium is so annoyed when they take back a planet from the Tau they have to burn it all down and replace it with skulls.

I laff'd pretty hard

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
So yes, the Imperium can crush the Tau, but doing so is probably going to doom the Imperium.

I actually doubt this very much. They'll likely lose more than they'll gain as a consequence (at least for a time) but the Imperium does not appear to be that overstretched that any such effort would result in its destruction. According to Lexicanum, the Sabbat Worlds consist of over 100 star systems, which I think is larger than the Tau Empire but was still retaken by the Imperium.

They wouldn't gain much at all. The level of destruction wrought on the core Tau worlds would probably make them uninhabitable and the gain of 100 worlds or so would greatly outweigh the military resources spent taking them.

The Imperium just can't bring together the resources now, not with the 13th Black Crusade, 3rd Armageddon War, and Tyranid Hive Fleets on top of countless other Ork/Chaos/Necron/Dark Eldar attacks on top of local rebellions.

Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

Harriticus wrote:

The Imperium just can't bring together the resources now, not with the 13th Black Crusade, 3rd Armageddon War, and Tyranid Hive Fleets on top of countless other Ork/Chaos/Necron/Dark Eldar attacks on top of local rebellions.

The Imperium has whatever is put into a codex / rulebook and thus, as some may have noticed, the lack of any sense of scale will never allow to make a halfway decent guess at the resources available.

Like R.Cruddace and the IG dex raised the number of IG regiments to billions of them.
Throw only a small perentage of those billions at any target and it is drowned in superior numbers, superior firepower and has no space to escape. So in GW terms, no army ever runs out of fuel , ammo etc , but can't bring the necessary ressources when the planned outcome
has to favor one side.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

I don't agree that they're as much a threat as Abbaddon and his 13th Crusade. Possibly in the future if everything goes their way then yeah, they could pose a problem, but if that ever happens then it'll be the downfall of the Imperium that paves the way, so this argument will be rendered moot. What happens after that will test the Tau.

Jefffar wrote:

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

Xenos factions (ie playable races) in alphabetical order:

Dark Eldar
Eldar
Necrons
Orks
Tau
Tyranids

By my count that's 6.


Your own estimate puts 4 of those factions ahead of the Tau in numbers and another faction could be or couldn't be larger.

So how are the Tau one of the largest? By your own admission they are 5th or 6th on a list of 6 playable factions.

Six playable xenos factions. Then dosens more that don't have codices.

And have so little information it's funny. We have no idea of numbers of other factions, there may be factions that exist outside the Imperiums influence that we may haven't heard of. Essentially, any sort of ranking system including these anonymous races is futile.

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

I don't agree that they're as much a threat as Abbaddon and his 13th Crusade. Possibly in the future if everything goes their way then yeah, they could pose a problem, but if that ever happens then it'll be the downfall of the Imperium that paves the way, so this argument will be rendered moot. What happens after that will test the Tau.

The Tau took a score of worlds without firing a shot. Abbaddon barely has a foothold on Cadia.
Problem is Chaos literally turns worlds into a living hell. Tau don't, so Imperium figures they'll deal with them later. Problem is it's always "later" and eventually the problem will become insurmountable.

Dose the tau even want to kill the IoM? Really the tau have a better chance to save it then destroy it.

nomotog wrote:Dose the tau even want to kill the IoM? Really the tau have a better chance to save it then destroy it.

That's what they thought about the Orks and Dark Eldar at first. They still trying to get their heads around what the IoM is.

Insurmountable? Does this exist in 40k at all?

Maybe the latest course of the fluff, where Tau have met the other factions ( DE, necrons, nids , etc ) should make it clear that no one can
stand at the sidelines forever. Tau had a nice "timeout" whenever they needed it, but recently the rest of the Galaxy is aware of them.
This situation will not go away like a bad dream.
Orks actively work against the interests of the Tau. Nids eat them in numbers. DE claim them as slaves if they want to. Necrons just harvest them. Chaos hasn't hit them in force yet, but that doesn't mean Tau have nothing that entertains them, Fab. B had some fun IIRC...

iproxtaco wrote:And have so little information it's funny. We have no idea of numbers of other factions, there may be factions that exist outside the Imperiums influence that we may haven't heard of. Essentially, any sort of ranking system including these anonymous races is futile.

It was said in the 5th Edition Rulebook that besides the standard enemies of the Imperium (Orks, Chaos, Tyranids, etc.) "new upstart alien empires" are also infringing on Imperial space. Besides the Tau Empire the Ulumeathic League, Draxian Hegemony, and Noisome Reek were listed. No information on any of them though, besides the Ulumeathic getting banged up badly in Hive Fleet Naga. Then there's also Hrud Migrations which are still around if the bio of Creed has anything to say about it. The Barghesi also seem to be a savage race similar to Orks which were confined to the Grendel Stars recently by the Iron Lords chapter.

The Ulumeathic/Draxians/Reek being listed alongside the Tau seems significant though, they're probably significant sector-level threats.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

I don't agree that they're as much a threat as Abbaddon and his 13th Crusade. Possibly in the future if everything goes their way then yeah, they could pose a problem, but if that ever happens then it'll be the downfall of the Imperium that paves the way, so this argument will be rendered moot. What happens after that will test the Tau.

The Tau took a score of worlds without firing a shot.

Several worlds decided to throw their lot in with the Tau, no arguments that they offer fringe worlds a better deal.

Abbaddon barely has a foothold on Cadia.

He has taken most of the planets surface and planets around it. He has a major foothold. Actually, if you will excuse the metaphor, he has two feet and a fist on Cadia, one more hand on green in this ever lasting game of galaxy twister and he'll have completed his move.

Problem is Chaos literally turns worlds into a living hell. Tau don't, so Imperium figures they'll deal with them later. Problem is it's always "later" and eventually the problem will become insurmountable.

Key word in all of that is 'eventually'. Not right now, not in five minutes, eventually. A hundred planet faction of which the majority are small outposts and allied planets is nothing to an empire of a million worlds. If the Tau are ever in the position to become one of the galaxy's big players then their ascendance will be paved by the fall of the Imperium, and I can guarantee they won't be the one laying the slabs. After that they'll have a lot bigger things to worry about.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Tau took a score of worlds without firing a shot. Abbaddon barely has a foothold on Cadia.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Official verbatim results of the 13th Black Crusade.

Abaddon has the majority of Cadia and the surrounding planets. The Apocalypse rulebook also places him and the leading elements of the 13th Black Crusade in the Thesus Sector, which is not among the sectors of the Cadian Gate, meaning at least his personal force has broken past the Gate.

From the 4th ed. Space Marine Codex:

One such enemy is the Tau, a dynamic, technologically advanced race who have taken advantage of the recent redeployment of IMperial forces bound for Segmentum Obscurus and the beleaguered Cadian Gate to further expand their empire. p. 20, 4th ed. Space Marine Codex

If the Imperium were not pressed for resources there would be no need to rob Peter to pay Paul, no need to strip the border to defend the Cadian Gate. The Tau are a regional power but the Imperium has multiple great threats to deal with simultaneously and lacks the resources to definitively deal with any one of them because it would mean neglecting other fronts.

Asherian Command wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

yep correct. The nids have yet to come in full force. And the tau lost a ton of their fleet.

Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

None of this dragging terminator armor for miles because of it's innumerable value. If a Broadside suit fails.. you just.. you know... take another one off the shelf.

Of all the Tau bashing threads, you cannot ever ignore the fact that Tau technology is advancing and IoM technology is quite literally beyond their grasp.

"It's broke all the time, because some smart guy made it a long time ago" - Frito, Idiocracy

Cottonjaw wrote:Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

None of this dragging terminator armor for miles because of it's innumerable value. If a Broadside suit fails.. you just.. you know... take another one off the shelf.

Of all the Tau bashing threads, you cannot ever ignore the fact that Tau technology is advancing and IoM technology is quite literally beyond their grasp.

"It's broke all the time, because some smart guy made it a long time ago" - Frito, Idiocracy

While I agree that the Tau's technological attitude is seriously underestimated (For example, the Imperium's own technological perspective makes them incredibly vulnerable when the local Adeptus Mechanicus member is dead, turned traitor, completely bonkers, or otherwise unavailable. This is every single Black Library book ever, it seems), they can't just replace lost materials out of nothing. They still have to get the resources like oil for plastics, metal, etc to build a new suit.

The Imperium's problem is that their technological system is incredibly luck-dependant and centralized. The Tau's problem is that their supplies are limited and they're a bit behind in the size department, which is part of the reason they're colonizing in the first place. They're going to have to get much faster ships if they want to have an advantage in adaptability.

because the tau are working well as nid food, less nids IoM have to fight the better

To sum up the situation, the IoM could muster probably enough forces to crush the Tau, but...

It wouldn't be easy.
The Tau are the least of the IoM's worries.
Taking forces from other areas would seriously increase vulnerability to more serious threats.

Therefore it makes no strategic sense.

Cottonjaw wrote:

Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

Oh really? There are more tanks on the assembly line in the IoM than earth caste workers have lived.
Maybe the fact of the IoM doing repairs in the field should tell you they do understand tech to a certain level.
Tank crews that is. Plus all these adepts of the mechanicum accompanying imperial forces are a fact.
Want to repair that expensive vehicle? Go imperium, or go orks. Tau?

Replacing basic stuff isn't the problem. Wasting ressources when not reclaiming the downed tech is.
The value of equipment may also depend on its heritage, a suit used for thousands of years a bit more important than a tool that may fail after its guarantee ceased.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Therefore it makes no strategic sense.

Not yet.
Sooner or later they have to care for the eastern fringe as Tau and their allies could provide biomass to the nids, so if they fail it may be
necessary to eradicate them.

Additionally 5th ed has the Tau encounter the rest of the galaxy and there aren't only humans who destroy civilizations.

1hadhq wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:

Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

Oh really? There are more tanks on the assembly line in the IoM than earth caste workers have lived.
Maybe the fact of the IoM doing repairs in the field should tell you they do understand tech to a certain level.
Tank crews that is. Plus all these adepts of the mechanicum accompanying imperial forces are a fact.
Want to repair that expensive vehicle? Go imperium, or go orks. Tau?

Replacing basic stuff isn't the problem. Wasting ressources when not reclaiming the downed tech is.
The value of equipment may also depend on its heritage, a suit used for thousands of years a bit more important than a tool that may fail after its guarantee ceased.

You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

The XV22 is the upgrade to the XV15. The XV9 is the upgrade to the XV8. The XV88-1 is the upgrade to the XV88. These things exist. They are canon. The Tau are developing and implementing new technology every day. Just because the IoM is conducting archeological digs to ungrave factories from M31 that produced tanks, and they can pray/throw slaves & servitors at it until it starts churning out tanks again, doesn't make them tech-capable.

The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM could absolutely crush them like a bug. But they have bigger problems. Namely: Themselves. The forces of Chaos are not a separate force. That is a civil war still raging within the IoM.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42. Imagine what kinda pants-department the IoM will be living in by then? Are the Tau going to be conducting a multi-system campaign against the IoM? No. But are the Tau a force to be reckoned with, even now? Yes.

The IoM could defeat the Tau, but they can't because it would be like invading mexico during WWII. What's the point.

Cottonjaw wrote:You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

The XV22 is the upgrade to the XV15. The XV9 is the upgrade to the XV8. The XV88-1 is the upgrade to the XV88. These things exist. They are canon. The Tau are developing and implementing new technology every day. Just because the IoM is conducting archeological digs to ungrave factories from M31 that produced tanks, and they can pray/throw slaves & servitors at it until it starts churning out tanks again, doesn't make them tech-capable.

The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM could absolutely crush them like a bug. But they have bigger problems. Namely: Themselves. The forces of Chaos are not a separate force. That is a civil war still raging within the IoM.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42. Imagine what kinda pants-department the IoM will be living in by then? Are the Tau going to be conducting a multi-system campaign against the IoM? No. But are the Tau a force to be reckoned with, even now? Yes.

This is all true, but even so Tau will never have large size galactic empire simply because it's slow FTL ( in short - the more territory they have the bigger problem will be defending it. Even on that small scale ). And since Etherials banned all Warp related research Tau will forever bee in that small region of space... And frankly, it the Tau had IoM size they would be in the same exact situation like the Imperium. No matter their believes and technology.

Cottonjaw wrote:

You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

Give an example of in-the-field-repairs of Tau.

Not happening eh?
Seems they are not that tech savvy...

Seriously, rhino's are capable of self-repair. Its a feature of it.
Now would anyone claim this puts imperial tanks into the same boat as necron vehicles because something works without a technician?
No. But you are missing the point, since the ability to repair and the presence of personal to perform repairs should tell you the imperium isn't reliant on advancing the tech but keeping tech standardized and simple to use.

Cottonjaw wrote:Just because the IoM is conducting archeological digs to ungrave factories from M31 that produced tanks, and they can pray/throw slaves & servitors at it until it starts churning out tanks again, doesn't make them tech-capable.

Ignoring the fact the mechnicum moves facilizties and workers around ...

Cottonjaw wrote:The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

You are.... major league confusing gameplay fact, with fluff fact.

Neeeevveerrmind. Count me out.

1hadhq wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

Not wanting to sound fanboi-ish, but the Tau codex and their page in the BRB both say that they're a rapidly advancing and expanding empire. Meanwhile in the BRB it constantly refers to the IoM as an empire in decline, losing technology and territory and pushed to the brink. It's one of the most well-established pieces of fluff in 40k.
Proof:

5th Edition rulebook, page 170 wrote:Though less than two thousand years old, this fledgling empire is rapidly expading in to space and encountering the elder races of the galaxy.

And many more to that effect.

5th Edition rulebook, page 101 wrote:From the palaces of Holy Terra, the High Lords watch as their domain crumbles. Armies and fleets fight on with the valour of heroes, calling for reinforcements that do not exist. In shattered cathedrals on a million worlds, Imperial citizens pray with the desperation of the damned, begging their immortal Emporer for a salvation they shall never see. As the lines of battle draw ever closer to Terra, the light of the Emporer fades and darkness swallows all.

Plus dozens more quotes to this effect in the BRB alone. There's a reason M41 is known as the Time of Ending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:
Give an example of in-the-field-repairs of Tau.

Not happening eh?
Seems they are not that tech savvy...

Give an example of in-the-field repairs for Eldar.

So I'm assuming they know little of technology.

See the flaw in that arguement now?

1hadhq wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:

You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

Give an example of in-the-field-repairs of Tau.

Not happening eh?
Seems they are not that tech savvy...

Seriously, rhino's are capable of self-repair. Its a feature of it.
Now would anyone claim this puts imperial tanks into the same boat as necron vehicles because something works without a technician?
No. But you are missing the point, since the ability to repair and the presence of personal to perform repairs should tell you the imperium isn't reliant on advancing the tech but keeping tech standardized and simple to use.

I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Cottonjaw wrote:You are.... major league confusing gameplay fact, with fluff fact.

Neeeevveerrmind. Count me out.

Gameplay and fluff are tied.
Sorry if this isn't what you deem fact.
Everything has fluff.
The IoM gets more time in the spotlight. But the design choice to have the ability to repair, isn't just there for gameplay as people seem to use the repair crews for anything but repairs. The ability to repair is part of both, game and fluff.
Models in codices and storys in GW publications where tech is reclaimed, repaired, do exist.
I am not going to search through hundreds of pages to dig out what is wellknown. Too many other duties this weekend. Sorry.

TrollPie wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

Not wanting to sound fanboi-ish, ...............................

Its maybe unclear written , but I didn't intend to claim the IoM is the epitome of research and innovation.
Should I not see the flaw in the claim of what happens in M42 as per Cottonjaw?
The IoM has its place and function in the setting , as have the Tau.
The course GW set is also not hidden. As is the reason they put the background into the eternal M41 freezer.
This way, GW has not to care about the nids eating the galaxy, or the necrons fully awakening , or chaos usurping the material realm,
or the orks uniting, etc etc.
Thus, M42 may not look like the fanboy dreams of any faction.
Maybe the fact of GW designers actively balancing units and adding believable fluff to them back in the day when the Tau were created,
says something of the foreseen future in Cottonjaws post.
I for one, would prefer a return to acceptable fluff, instead of the authors we have now who miss the theme and go overboard.
But maybe he's right and I am too stuck in the old ways.
Shouldn't say : unlikely, should say: welcome to cheese country. From swiss, netherlands or france?

TrollPie wrote:Give an example of in-the-field repairs for Eldar.

So I'm assuming they know little of technology.

See the flaw in that arguement now?

Eldar have their own repair model in Dawn of war. Has a hard time to do anything under fire tough. Could be the psychic part of their work and the loss of focus the battlefield may bring. But yes, Eldar have their own take on tech and know this approach on it very well.

The argument still stands.
The IoM is able to repair its stuff.
Even under attack, where repairs are difficult.

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Maybe.
Tau like the shiny new things. I see that now. Like wargamers. The plot thickens...

Or they just keep their work-crews behind, out of danger. So no in-the-field-repair, but recycling the vehicle if the battle was won.
What happens if they have to retreat? Give up on the ressources? Destroy what has to be abandoned?

1hadhq wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Maybe.
Tau like the shiny new things. I see that now. Like wargamers. The plot thickens...

Or they just keep their work-crews behind, out of danger. So no in-the-field-repair, but recycling the vehicle if the battle was won.
What happens if they have to retreat? Give up on the ressources? Destroy what has to be abandoned?

I don't think they keep there work crews behind behind. There was a story where a medical team got killed in combat. You can also deploy technical drones in combat. (no real rules for them yet, they show up in cites of death ect.) A better question to ask is who fixes the vehicles. Do they drag earth caste out to fix them, or can the fire caste maintain there own equipment?

If they retreat, then then leave behind what they leave behind. In the battles they have had, they usually try to get civilians out fist. (probably machinery too) If a tank gets damaged and has to be abandoned, I don't think they much care. Just leave it behind we have to retreat/advance and don't have time to get a toe truck.

Uh, the Tau have a repair unit in Dawn of War as well...so what the hell kind of argument is that?

1hadhq wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

Not wanting to sound fanboi-ish, ...............................

Its maybe unclear written , but I didn't intend to claim the IoM is the epitome of research and innovation.

Cottonjaw said that the Tau were expanding and the IoM was falling apart, you said the assumptions were stellar, I misunderstood. Oops.

Shouldn't say : unlikely, should say: welcome to cheese country. From swiss, netherlands or france?

Actually Britain is the one of the world's leading exporters of cheese, ahead of all those countries. So... yeah.

TrollPie wrote:Give an example of in-the-field repairs for Eldar.

So I'm assuming they know little of technology.

See the flaw in that arguement now?

Eldar have their own repair model in Dawn of war. Has a hard time to do anything under fire tough. Could be the psychic part of their work and the loss of focus the battlefield may bring. But yes, Eldar have their own take on tech and know this approach on it very well.

So do Tau, and it's a drone and therefore a lot less risky to use than a pansy spehss elf.

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Maybe.
Tau like the shiny new things. I see that now. Like wargamers. The plot thickens...

Or they just keep their work-crews behind, out of danger. So no in-the-field-repair, but recycling the vehicle if the battle was won.
What happens if they have to retreat? Give up on the ressources? Destroy what has to be abandoned?

I imagine they would salvage what they can and scarper. They don't care about territory much since they can always retake it, and I suppose the same would apply to resources.

The Tau aren't important enough to destroy--there's far bigger threats for the Imperium to face off against.

This is intentional. The Tau are representative of many smaller races which rely on technology and aren't yet touched by Chaos.