I've seen a lot of threads brought up, at different times, about the technology level of the Imperial Guard. Things like how tough flak armor actually is, how modern weapons compare to lasguns, could an Abrams take on a Leman Russ, why do the IG use strangely low-tech equipment like hand-loaded artillery, etc, when they live in a universe that is supposedly filled with absurdly high technology. For that matter, there is a strange mix of high and low tech PRESENT in the Imperial Guard; The aforementioned hand-loaded artillery, side-by-side with soldiers carrying fusion-powered hand weapons (plasma guns, meltaguns), for example. This thread is my effort at answering the seeming dichotomy.


PLEASE TAKE NOTE: Everything below the line is my own speculation and deduction, not canon. This is a description of how I view the Imperial Guard, and a suggestion as to how a galaxy-spanning military might work in the 40k universe. If there's some piece of canon that DIRECTLY and OBJECTIVELY contradicts one of my arguments, please point it out; otherwise, it's irrelevant. Thanks in advance.
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You very rarely read a BL book about the 889725 Random Hive-World Regiment, because they just aren't Big Damn Heroes like, say, the Tanith First and Only are. But in fact it's the random hive-world regiments that are doing the vast majority of the fighting. The Tanith were present at, to take a wild guess, at something like one hundred-millionth of the battles that were fought, Imperium-wide, during their time in service. Similar things can be said of almost all of the named formations that we know of. Even the Cadians don't fight in any but a small fraction of the Imperium's battles. It's the uncountable, nameless hive-worlds that are providing the great mass of troops who fight in the innumerable battles that rage every day across the galaxy.

Unfortunately, we don't know much about those regiments, simply because we only have at most a few dozen worlds named in the canon, and not all of those even raise Guard regiments, since some are Space Marine homeworlds, forge worlds, or similarly exempt from the normal tithes. But these are the regiments I want to brainstorm about for a while; the billions of regiments raised from the thousands of extremely heavily-populated worlds that provide the bulk of Imperial manpower.

The part of the Guard that tends to be emphasized is it's enormous variability. Feral-world regiments in plate mail marching side-by-side with elite energy-weapon toting drop troops. But, thinking about it for a moment. . . you can't HAVE an army of any great size that is that variable. Why? Logistics. Nearly everything those soldiers eat, sleep on, wear, their bullets if they have projectile weapons and their power packs if not, their tools, flak armor, vehicles, EVERYTHING, is being shipped over interstellar distances, through the Warp. Some things can be produced locally on the planet in question, certainly; it doesn't take much by way of resources to sew together and fill sandbags, for instance. Local food might be available, depending on how big the war is and how heavily populated the planet. For that matter, some local weapons manufacture might even be available; assuming, of course, that it's the same as the weapons the Guard have. A plant that manufactures 9mm ammunition would do no good at all for a regiment armed with, say, .30-06 rifles. In short, the Ministorum deals on an hourly basis with a logistics problem that dwarfs anything anyone on Earth has ever dreamed of. How can they possibly ensure that things end up where they need to go? The most difficult part of any Imperial war effort, it seems to me, is NOT shipping the soldiers in-system, or forcing a planetary landing, or coordinating with independent forces like Space Marines; it's making sure those soldiers have ammunition in their weapons and food in their stomachs after a month of fighting.

Clearly, that problem needs to be made as simple as possible, in order to minimize the number of errors; every supply ship mis-loaded is a conquest delayed, or a world or army lost. To me, there are two related ways in which the logistical issues can be dealt with.

First; Standardization. This is absolutely essential. Every regiment equipped with a non-standard weapon, every company of tanks that cannot run on the standard fuel, for that matter every different type of vehicle assigned to a particular warzone, adds an order of magnitude to the logistical problem. It is much, much less important that the Imperial Guard's weapons have high stopping power than it is that they be all the same. Small differences don't matter much; a lasgun with three charge settings instead of one, or a slightly longer barrel, is perfectly fine. But they all need to take the same ammo; a regiment armed with a mix of autorifles and lasguns would cause some supply issues, because suddenly they need twice as much logistical support as the exact same regiment armed with purely one or the other, even leaving aside the issue of ballistic ammunition taking up more freighter space and needing to be replaced more often than lasgun charge packs. Every Leman Russ in the sector, at least, needs to fire the same caliber of shell; every autorifle needs to use the same kind of bullet; every Chimera needs to run on identical fuel.

Here the STC system is an enormous help. Variety is the ENEMY of the Imperial Guard, not a strength; when you need to field billions or trillions of soldiers across hundreds of thousands of worlds scattered over the entirety of the galaxy, allowing every planet to arm their tithed soldiers with different weaponry is a death sentence. The support will be slow, fragmentary, and occasionally just wrong; the shock troops from the hive worlds will get a load of charge packs that don't do jack gak for their high-powered automatic rifles, and the light infantry from the feral worlds might get shipped eighteen different kinds of ballistic ammunition that do not help their swords in the slightest. But if every regiment, or nearly every regiment, is armed with lasguns? Great. Put a hundred thousand lasguns and half a milliion charge packs on every supply ship to replace losses, THEN worry about fitting whatever specialty equipment is needed in the extra space.

Second; simplicity and reliabilty. The Imperial Guard can't be equipped with the latest, greatest, most deadly military technology in the way that some elite modern forces are. What they need is equipment that lasts a long time, is easy to use, and doesn't fail even under strenuous long-term use. The lasgun is, of course, the premier example; charge packs carry a high load of ammunition and can be recharged and reused multiple times, the weapons last for a very long time even used hard, and they are simple to make. It would surprise me, for that matter, if a lasgun had more than a very few moving parts. A forge-world can probably make lasguns using a simple, entirely robotic assembly-line, and produce millions of weapons and charge packs daily. Those weapons and ammunition can then be loaded on bulk freighters and shipped off to where they are needed; to support an ongoing war effort, or to a Ministorum depot for assignment to troop transports.

This is also, it seems to me, the explanation for why the IG still uses low-tech support weapons, such as mortars and unguided rockets. A mortar is basically the most simple way to fire an explosive possible. It has almost no moving parts, so it's easy to make and hard to break. An unguided, man-carried missile launcher is old technology today, much less in the 41st millenium; they still see widespread use in the IG, I would suppose, largely because they're simple and reliable. A metal tube, an iron sight, a trigger and an igniter. Easy to make, hard to break. Of course, there are some exceptions; plasma guns, for example, are infamously temperamental, and presumably complex to manufacture. But is it hard to believe that at least some of that legendary unreliability is due to the difficulty and scarcity of getting proper maintenance and replacement parts for plasma guns on the front lines? The Skitarii don't seem to have nearly so much trouble, likely because they're much more closely supported by the AdMech. . . and because there are many fewer of them.

So then, in what ways IS the Imperial Guard high-tech? Given all these constraints, what would keep, say, the US Army, with it's much closer logistical base and (in some ways) MORE advanced weaponry, from wiping out an IG force of approximately equal size?

1. Materials. Regardless of the frankly strange bits and pieces that occasionally pop out in some GW materials, I highly doubt that many soldiers not on a feral world in the 41st millenium are still using iron, steel, or even titanium. Flak and carapace armor are most likely made of a lightweight metallic composite, quite possibly made from elements that we don't even know about; as such, they would be superior to modern armor in toughness, weight for a given area of coverage, or more likely both. Flak armor may well be actually impenetrable to modern small-arms, and carapace almost certainly would be. Some things might still be made of primitive materials, of course. Artillery shells need only be strong enough to withstand the pressure of firing; cheap, basic metals would be fine, depending on the power of the weapon. Tank armor, on the other hand, would be made of advanced materials so as to get more protection with less weight, and infantry weapons would be lighter than modern equivalents, with other potential benefits such as reduced maintenance requirements certainly possible.

2. Propellants/Explosives. The Imperial Guard would certainly not use the same explosives we know of in their shells and ballistic weapons, nor the same fuel to run their vehicles. In 39,000 years, even granted a great deal of technological decay, they almost have to have found or created more efficient methods of energy transfer; particularly considering the amount of fighting that happened in that time. For a given weight of shell or rate of fire, that would make Imperial weapons much more effective than modern counterparts even when they were otherwise identical or even inferior; The shells would create a larger, hotter, and more violent explosion, artillery would have a greater range. Vehicles would be faster and more maneuverable than a modern vehicle of the same mass and size, and combined with the use of advanced metals and ceramics, would be much more heavily armored and armed than a modern equivalent could be.

3. Flexibility. The Imperial Guard has operated across the galaxy, in every kind of environment; and regardless of all their technological mysticism and general intellectual backwardness, if their model didn't WORK nearly everywhere they would have changed it by now. They can operate anywhere. Lighter, tougher armor and faster transport, generally more powerful weapons and personal small-arms that don't run out of ammunition unless the troopers are cut off from all sources of heat and light and all resupply, combine to give them more mobility, flexibility, and man-for-man firepower than any modern force. That's an army suitable for conquering the stars; not one armed to the teeth with fancy gadgets and machinery, but one that can operate in huge numbers with (relatively) scant support and bring overwhelming firepower to bear where it's needed.


The Argument In Brief (tl;dr)

The Imperial Guard must, of necessity, be as homogeneous as is possible, in order to simplify the logistical nightmare of supplying them across interstellar distances. Certain specialty troops are of course exceptions, but their numbers are tiny compared to the masses and masses of soldiers that the Imperium fields. While distinctions are clearly drawn between broad categories of soldiers - light and heavy infantry, mechanized, armored, drop troops, and etc - WITHIN those categories units are very likely armed and equipped almost identically. The differences are likely to be equipment assigned for carrying out some special assignment, or field modifications/trophies performed or scavenged by the unit itself, which of course receive no dedicated support from the Munitorum.

This also explains the strangely low-tech nature of much Imperial Guard equipment; it has to be produced rapidly and en masse, then distributed to a massive number of users, and survive a great deal of rough handling. This requires simple, robust arms and armor, and makes delicate equipment with moving parts unproductive. More advanced equipment would certainly be more effective given sufficient upkeep and support, and doubtless there are some wealthy worlds which equip their PDF and tithed regiments to a higher standard; but that advanced equipment needs a much bigger logistical 'tail', which puts more strain on their support network. The Space Marines are the logical endpoint of that philosophy, where nearly the entire output of a (admittedly, fairly minor) planet is dedicated to maintaining a mere one thousand elite infantry and their support units. For the amount of fighting the Imperium does, that's simply not supportable on a large scale, however useful it is to have a small number of Space Marines around now and then.

Famous and specialized formations such as Catachans or Elysian Drop Troops, which form the bulk of the IG that we read about and play with,
do not represent the Imperial Guard. The bulk of the Imperial Guard is the hundreds of millions of lasgun-armed soldiers, with their standard missile launchers, mortars and lascannons, doing their standard job in standard ways on a multitude of different worlds. Same gak, different day.

Lasguns are superior to modern assault rifles in every single way: more accurate, more powerful, more efficient etc. and can be charged by almost anything (even being left in the sun), making them a logistical dream come true.
As well as sci-fi materials such as plasfibre, thermoplas and such flak armour commonly contains layers of carbon fibre, which is a stronger, lighter and more heat resistant material than kevlar.

Overall a pretty informative read.

Ha, yes, I'm aware of all the advantages of lasguns. Going into that level of detail would only have made the wall o' text even longer, however, so I limited myself to only more general statements. And they do have some downsides, still. Charge packs do have to be replaced; soldiers will lose them, if a regiment is forced to retreat they lose all the ammunition carried by any casualties they leave behind, etc. In addition, no directed energy weapon can be as efficient in transferring energy as a ballistic weapon; a significant fraction of the energy expended goes into the air. This is one of the main reasons we don't have a man-killing laser weapon yet, with our current technology it would require an enormous power source to be effective at any kind of range. But the other advantages of lasguns are so huge that they overwhelm that problem, for the Imperium; not to mention that it doesn't make much difference to the soldiers themselves, since charge packs manifestly contain enough power to kill people at range with every shot anyway.

Whether or not lasguns are strictly superior to modern combat rifles in terms of actual killing power is certainly debatable; that's one of the parts of the fluff that is highly disputed, and frankly not consistent between authors. The main reason they're used so much, IMO, is because of the logistical benefits; more lasguns issued means less ammunition needed as well as a more flexible combat force. Even if autorifles were actually a superior weapon, I would still expect lasguns to be standard issue.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Even if autorifles were actually a superior weapon, I would still expect lasguns to be standard issue.

Both of these assumptions are true and were mentioned in GW books.

As for the initial text, it is also worth pointing out that there are "feral world regiments in plate mail marching side-by-side with energy-weapon toting drop troops". In fact, there's a sufficient number of Guard regiments who wear just fur, or go into battle bare-chested. The lasgun really is the one and only thing they all have. Beyond that ... well, look at the Attilan Rough Riders for example.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Whether or not lasguns are strictly superior to modern combat rifles in terms of actual killing power is certainly debatable; that's one of the parts of the fluff that is highly disputed, and frankly not consistent between authors.

I recommend prioritizing studio material before looking at the personal interpretation of individual freelancing novel authors; you'd be surprised how much more consistent the setting gets.

Really great post, bravo! I only have one thing to say:

"Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley (possibly apocryphal)

Lynata wrote:

As for the initial text, it is also worth pointing out that there are "feral world regiments in plate mail marching side-by-side with energy-weapon toting drop troops". In fact, there's a sufficient number of Guard regiments who wear just fur, or go into battle bare-chested. The lasgun really is the one and only thing they all have. Beyond that ... well, look at the Attilan Rough Riders for example.

Never denied that. There are certainly a great number of different types of regiments in the IG, and a great deal of variety.

. . . in absolute terms. The argument I presented was that there is, of necessity, very little variety in relative terms. That is to say; yes, the planet Attila produces savage, Mongol-like horsemen. Which are specialist troops only ever present in small numbers, on a very limited number of battlefields. Just like Catachan produces elite jungle guerrillas, and Elysia produces high-quality drop troops. But feral worlds and deathworlds are very, very lightly populated even compared to modern-day Earth, let alone the massive hive-worlds of the Imperium. And that being so, these specialist troops can't make up anything but the tiniest fraction of the Imperial Guard.

So yes; at the front of the assault, you've got your five thousand Elysian drop troops, and right behind them come down twenty thousand Attilan horsemen to scout out the way. And after them come three-quarters of a million troops, divided into infantry, armor and artillery regiments, who are all functionally identical. The specialists are the exception; uniformity is the rule, because that's really the only way to support a force of such massive size across interstellar distances.

Ok we know 40k is a fantasy si-fi setting so this dosnt count but it has been discovered that the elements we have on earth are the same throughout the universe. although there are bound to be better alloys

BeRzErKeR wrote:The specialists are the exception; uniformity is the rule, because that's really the only way to support a force of such massive size across interstellar distances.

That is certainly true - my argument was more referring to the equipment rather than the troops' role. And as we can see from the IG codices, there are lots of examples of ordinary infantry regiments who lack "real" armour because they go into battle naked or wearing furs (feral and feudal worlds) or leather jackets or greatcoats (hive and imperial worlds). I didn't really intend to nitpick, it's just that many people think that Cadian-style flak armour is standard, whereas I'd say it is "just" common. A small, yet potentially important difference.

I should add that imho all in all your write-up sounds spot on - as TrollPie said: nice work!

I don't know if we can say the IG homogeneous. Could go on about the different armor different combat style of each unit, but the lasguns aren't even the same. A quick glance at the IG page in the BRB will show you that there are a lot of different lasguns. The double barred lasgun and the wooden stop lasgun are probably as compatible as a Ak ans a M-16.

nomotog wrote:The double barred lasgun and the wooden stop lasgun are probably as compatible as a Ak ans a M-16.

Well, the important thing (and what would break the AK-M16 comparison) is that they still take the same charge packs. That is all the Munitorum cares about. A lasgun is a lasgun, most differences are superficial (such as wooden stock vs skeleton butt). Occasionally, you have the odd outsider such as the double-barrelled one, or models that pack a bigger punch whilst simultaneously drawing more energy from the pack, but they all work on the same principle.

Vehicles and weaponry are largely(!) the same, as the Munitorum has established a set of standards that the Imperium's worlds have to follow. This can even lead to tithed regiments receiving different stuff than what they are used to from their days as PDF, even though all was produced on the same world. The 2E Guard Codex gives a very good explanation about it, such as the Guard not wanting to bother with local designs because it'd be next to impossible to procure a steady supply of spare parts. In case of the lasguns, however, they may simply give the trooper another rifle. Fluff mentions that veteran regiments often look nothing like how they started out, with individual troopers now wearing uniforms from other planets or carrying different lasgun-patterns they happened to pick up as replacement. In many cases, this is also because the longer an Imperial Guard regiment remains in service, the higher are chances that they would get merged with another unit in order to counter battle attrition. After all, they do not receive reinforcements from home. Once you're in the Guard, all ties to your original planet and its PDF are cut.

The exception obviously being the Gateway World of Cadia, where the Guard basically is the PDF, and regiments may cycle between duty at home or elsewhere in the Imperium.

The majority of the armour and armament are Cadian-type. Many Imperial Guard regiments wear the same uniform as Cadians. And the vehicles are particularly similar in all regiments except maybe feral cannibals who aren't able even to read, write and shoot from lasguns. I think the latters are used by civilized and cunning Imperial commanders as cannon-fodder or living shields. They simply can't be used another way in the hi-tech universe.

Farseer Petriel wrote:The majority of the armour and armament are Cadian-type.

I'm pretty sure that I have read that Cadians are deemed an example for other Guard regiments and "many" emulate their tactics and equipment, but do you have any source regarding that majority-thing? That's a pretty important difference!

Just a nitpick, but the majority of the armor and weapons wouldn't be Cadian pattern, it would be Kantrael pattern.

Coolyo294 wrote:Just a nitpick, but the majority of the armor and weapons wouldn't be Cadian pattern, it would be Kantrael pattern.

To nitpick further, Kantrael is the name of the Forge World where Cadia's armor and weapon designs came from.

They are not, however, the only Forge World producing those patterns of equipment. It's not entirely unbelievable that it would be referred to as 'Cadian pattern' equipment rather than being referred as 'Kantrael pattern'.

Daston wrote:Ok we know 40k is a fantasy si-fi setting so this dosnt count but it has been discovered that the elements we have on earth are the same throughout the universe. although there are bound to be better alloys

May I add we haven't found every element on earth yet, even if there is proof all natural elements have been found, as we humans are creating new elements trying to reach the 'island of stability'

Other than that one grip +1 to your post.


@OP: awesome post, though your tl:dr needs a tl:dr

Lynata wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Even if autorifles were actually a superior weapon, I would still expect lasguns to be standard issue.

Both of these assumptions are true and were mentioned in GW books.

Actually in Forgeworld's Imperial Armour Siege of Vraks books it does describe an autogun in the hands of one of the rebels:

The name autogun is a general term covering conventional projectile weapons (ie, they fire a bullet) and, whilst not as common amongst Imperial Guard regiments as lasguns, autoguns are issued in substantial numbers to some regiments...

As a weapon, the autogun is comparable in effectiveness to a lasgun but lacks some of the lagun's versatility and reliability. Autoguns are prone to jamming, especially in dusty and muddy conditions, where intricate moving parts can quickly become fouled. A good maintenance routine is necessary for troops armed with autoguns. In general, autoguns and their ammunition are also heavier than lasguns and their power cells. p. 43, Imperial Armour 5: Siege of Vraks

In the 2nd edition Wargear book and the Necromunda rulebook, both autoguns and lasguns had the same Strength of 3, with the lasgun having a better armor save modifier. The autogun was also described as being equivalent roughly to a 20th century assault rifle.

They are thus roughly comparable in terms of stopping power.

The key point however as stated by the OP is the Imperial Guard's requirement for conformity due to logistics. The ability for lasgun packs to recharge from the sun or even a fire is an ability that mitigates at least partially the huge logistical load of the Imperial Guard. The ability for STC produced vehicles to somehow be able to function after centuries of being mothballed (such as in the Siege of Vraks books) is also an ability beyond that of modern equipment.

In short, I think the OP has it right. The most common overlooked fact (especially in any modern weapons vs. Imperial Guard comparison) about the Imperial Guard is that it is ultimately about swamping you in numbers of men and armored vehicles, not about individual outperformance. Individually in terms of performance, the Imperial Guard's equipment may be slow clunky or have poor performance, but where it excels is in durability, standardization, and ease of maintenance.

Just as a side note: Lasguns aren't as universal as you might first think. I can remember at least one situation (Gaunts ghosts, I forget which book, but there was a siege involved), where the wrong shipment of lasgun charge packs came through, and they were sent into battle with ammo they couldn't use. Logistics break down, at its finest.

Randomonioum wrote:Just as a side note: Lasguns aren't as universal as you might first think. I can remember at least one situation (Gaunts ghosts, I forget which book, but there was a siege involved), where the wrong shipment of lasgun charge packs came through, and they were sent into battle with ammo they couldn't use. Logistics break down, at its finest.

Book 5 The Guns of Tanith, the munitorium ordered the more common type 5 but Tanith guns use type 3, or something like that. They ended up with like 2 charge packs apeice. But other then that good op.

Forgeworld and Black Library aren't GW - although closely connected, they frequently contradict studio material.

Examples for things that just seem weird in the aforementioned sources:
Siege of Vraks -> Storm Troopers fighting Chaos Marines, Hellguns fail to even scratch the enemy's power armour, leaving only burn marks (?!)
Abnett's novels -> "Navigator Servitors", Guardsmen carrying autocannons, height issues, Black Guard not being Malekith's bodyguard anymore, etc

That said, re-reading the Codex material, it does leave some room for other weapons, although it very much sounds like few exceptions from the rule:

"Regardless of their appearance almost all newly recruited troops carry the universal lasgun. This weapon is easy and cheap to manufacture and maintain, and hence ideally suited to the needs of planetary forces. Other weapons are more or less standard across the Imperium, although individual planetary forces may favour one kind over another. The Emperor's demand is simply that troops be equipped and trained ready to fight in his armies.

As well as providing troops, a planet's Lord may be called upon to provide heavy equipment in the form of locally built tanks, artillery, troop carriers, etc. As with lighter armaments these tend to be a standardised basic form across the Imperium, with only minor variations in design and build quality. Indeed, planetary Lords are obliged to provide heavy weapons of a basically standard type for the Imperial Guard as well as stocks of spares, fuel processors and logistic support as appropriate. Although a planet's defence forces will almost certainly include locally designed vehicles, often of the most wild or specialised kind, these are almost never recruited into the Imperial Guard because of the difficulty of maintenance and impracticality of keeping them running."

As far as autogun > lasgun power is concerned, I could have sworn I've read that somewhere, but cannot find it right now. I'll keep looking and hope I'm able to dig it up again.

The problem wasn't that it was the "wrong" shipment of Lasguns or any kind of 'canonical breakdown', as I assume a certain someone is saying but that the Type 5 Lasgun cells were what the Urdeshi and Phantine troops were using, for a more compact kind of 'bullpup' lasgun.

The cells wouldn't fit into the slot for the more conventionally built 'rifle' lasguns that the Tanith had.
It's not really unbelievable, just like it's not unbelievable that you can't load a P90 with the same clip you'd load a MP5 with.

Kanluwen wrote:It's not really unbelievable, just like it's not unbelievable that you can't load a P90 with the same clip you'd load a MP5 with.

The whole reason behind standardization is that you can load every lasgun with every chargepack, so that every Imperial force can restock at every world they come across. If every regiment needs different parts, why even bother with a Munitorum standard? And where would they even get their special chargepacks from, considering the ties to the world where the unit was raised are cut as soon as they board the transports?

Every pattern of lasgun requiring its own special chargepack just doesn't add up. Licensed products. *shrugs*

It's not unbelievable that an empire of 1 million worlds may have 5 types of powerpacks. That's still pretty good standardization.

Well the Lasgun is about the only thing in any category that's mostly standard in the Imperium.

There's quite a bit of standard equipment, but it's up to each individual regiment to see if they use it.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's not really unbelievable, just like it's not unbelievable that you can't load a P90 with the same clip you'd load a MP5 with.

The whole reason behind standardization is that you can load every lasgun with every chargepack, so that every Imperial force can restock at every world they come across. If every regiment needs different parts, why even bother with a Munitorum standard? And where would they even get their special chargepacks from, considering the ties to the world where the unit was raised are cut as soon as they board the transports?

Every pattern of lasgun requiring its own special chargepack just doesn't add up. Licensed products. *shrugs*

Well it's not like the IoM has a huge choice here. They have to use what the AdMech make them.

I guess it's just that the original premise is wrong. The IG is not a standardized army. It's more like a collection of snowflake armies. The fact that everyone uses a lasgun is not that standardized. It's like saying everyone on earth uses a bullet gun.

The standard Mars Short Pattern Lasgun is in fact standard. Everyone that uses a different pattern is differing from the norm. We just happen to hear about these different lasguns cause we hear about the special regiments which tend to have unique roles or stick out because they were in famous battles.

@Lynata, a hellgun would just scorch the armor of a space marine, seeing that its only ap5. That was probually written before the current ig codex came out.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@Lynata, a hellgun would just scorch the armor of a space marine, seeing that its only ap5. That was probually written before the current ig codex came out.

I assume you're right on the date, but the effect still felt wrong. AP4 would have punched right through the armour, AP5 means the armour has a chance to negate the attack. A couple burn marks reads like complete invulnerability, though.
I mean, bolters have AP5 as well, would you consider it an accurate depiction if they'd just ricochet off the plates?
Burn marks sound fitting for lasguns (and even they have a chance to wound), but hellguns would surely leave a much stronger effect.

Just nitpicking, though. I actually like the Siege of Vraks books and think there should be more like them. But they do make mistakes (another would be misplacing Ryza and changing its planet type), and they are not studio material, and as such not truly a solid reference.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@Lynata, a hellgun would just scorch the armor of a space marine, seeing that its only ap5. That was probually written before the current ig codex came out.

Hellguns penetrate power armor now, quite reliably.

Your theory is sound, but the practical side is doubtful purely due to human ( and probably abhuman) nature.

Here on Terra, NATO spent nearly 5 decades trying to standardise fuel types, ammunition, etc, the former Soviet Union did likewise, but neither succeeded totally.

In some cases it was down to national (read planetary) ideas, so Romanian AK47s are similar to, but not the same as, Russian or East German ones.

All NATO might use 155mm howitzers, but the Germans want their own sights, the Brits want extra types of munitions, the Italians want towed guns, the Dutch self propelled, and on it goes.

Even GW's codexes say that Russes and Chimeras, for example, are only "the most common" types of tanks/APCs, and then go on to produce half a dozen variants of each, all needing different ammunition.

Consider too that most equipment gets modified by its crew to cover threats that their experience tells them they need to defend against. Anything from extra armour, bigger fuel tanks, more radios, whatever, that the designers never thought about, or that planetary governors ( or their chancellors) were too mean to pay for.

The fluff says that Russes, for example, run on any fuel; but if all you have is coal, the interior layout needs to grow a bit to accommodate a stoker?

And what about having some nice, bog standard, trucks to haul all theses supplies? A few mentions in books, but models none.( I use diecast metal ones myself). No cranes, no forklifts, only the rather pointless sentinel powerlifter, and that seems to be a Nvy thing for re-arming aircraft , at least in Imperial Armour #1.

Of course, part of the game and the hobby in general, is to give you a basic set up then let you build an army with whatever you wish; it doesn't matter so long as you and your opponent agree before a game what's what.

Lynata wrote:I assume you're right on the date, but the effect still felt wrong. AP4 would have punched right through the armour, AP5 means the armour has a chance to negate the attack. A couple burn marks reads like complete invulnerability, though.
I mean, bolters have AP5 as well, would you consider it an accurate depiction if they'd just ricochet off the plates?
Burn marks sound fitting for lasguns (and even they have a chance to wound), but hellguns would surely leave a much stronger effect.

Just nitpicking, though. I actually like the Siege of Vraks books and think there should be more like them. But they do make mistakes (another would be misplacing Ryza and changing its planet type), and they are not studio material, and as such not truly a solid reference.

AP4 Heavy Bolters couldn't penetrate the exoskeleton of a Necron Warrior when fired in a volley in the Necron codex, Space Marine Power Armour is similarly durable.

Bolters in the fluff aren't likely to penetrate the chestplate of Power Armour, and the helmet of Power Armour when worn by a Marine has withstood point-blank firing from a bolt-pistol, only dazing the Marine. Said bolter-rounds did, in fact, just "richochet off."

Though, as of current fluff the "hot shot lasgun" as they are now called should penetrate the armour. And it's really such a minor "deviation," especially if the Hellguns were AP5 then, that it's really not any more inconsistent than studio material has been.

@OP: Was a good post, an enjoyable, insightful read.

Just some clarification on something you briefly mentioned: Flak Armour would be largely resistant when put up against small-arms fire by today's standards, Lasguns are better than any assault rifle I can recall, able to penetrate two meters of concrete with a single round as well as blow limbs off, and Flak Armour can indeed defend against Las-fire.

If Lasguns go through 2m of concrete, why does everyone get 4+ coversaves nowdays?

as i see it, the vast majority of weapons will bounce off power armour, mainly because its thicker than some tank armour and made out of ceramite and adamantium (presumably materials far superior to current alloys and compounds). I would assume that flak armour would be roughly equivalent (or slightly better) to current body armour, Carrapace is supposedly a mix of plasteel and ceramite plates (at least the guard stuff is) and is probably about as effective as juggernaught armour from CoD (ie, the ability to wade through small arms fire).

I would postulate that autoguns and lasguns would be roughly equivalent, however i would say that lasguns would be better for all-round effectivenes and maintenance (there would actualy be about 2 moving parts (trigger and power selector). however they would automaticaly cauterise a wound, so if you just winged the target it would be alright. however, you shoot it with a bullet and the target bleeds out. bullets would also be more effective against ceramic armours as ceramics can withstand heat quite well. we can assume too that Autoguns in the 41st milenium are quite a bit more effective than an M4 (5.56) or AK47 (7.62 short), probably more inline with the SCAR-H ( 7.62 longs hurt) or something similar. same with auto-pistols and/or stubbers, not gunna be 9mm, probably more like .44 magnum or .45 rounds.

@OP, good post mate.

No need to assume. The particular autogun described in that Siege of Vraks article on the renegade militiaman is:

This particular autogun is an Agripinaa pattern, type III. It fires a long 8.25 calibre round, on either single shot, semi-automatic, and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 meres per second. It takes both a 20 and a 30 round box magazine (the 30 round magazine is shown here). p. 43, Imperial Armour 5: Siege of Vraks part 1

Examples of autopistols and stubbers and heavy stubbers from Imperial Armour 6:

Autopistol
Length: 33cm
Barrel: 17cm
Weight: 1.6kg
Calibre: 4.10
Feed: 30 round box
Cyclic rate of fire: 900 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 255 m/sec

Heavy Stubber
Length: 122cm
Barrel: 60cm
Weight: 7.8 kg
Calibre: long 8.25
Feed: 50 round belt
Cyclic rate of fire: 850 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 750 m/sec

Stub Gun
Length: 26cm
Barrel: 17cm
Weight: 2.2kg
Calibre: short 6.2mm
Feed: 6 round magazine
Cyclic rate of fire: n/a
Muzzle velocity: 220 m/sec

p. 148-149, Imperial Armour 6: Siege of Vraks part 2

Thanks to everyone for the approval! I like to spend time (very likely too much time. . .) thinking about the little details of fictional universes. It makes it much more satisfying if I can come with theories that fit the lore, at least roughly, and explain things that bother me, such as the non-standardization of the IG. It just doesn't make SENSE for an army that has to operate under such nightmarish logistical conditions to be so varied. . .

@IG General; You are, of course, correct in your statements about Earth; but you have to consider that NATO has nothing like the power of the Munitorum. A high-ranking Munitorum official can say, if needs be, " We can make do with a few thousand less soldiers for a short time. If you won't arm your soldiers with standard equipment, we won't take them. If we don't take them, you'll be delinquent in your tithes. If you're delinquent in your tithes, you'll get to explain the matter to the Holy Inquisition." The Imperial Government is entirely, ruthlessly totalitarian. You can do as you please most of the time, as long as you pay your tithes on time. . . but when you're given an order, you do it immediately, as instructed. Or else. That's the only way the Imperium can survive.

Every Planetary Governor serves at the sufference of the Imperial institutions, of which the Munitorum is not the least powerful. And the Munitorum has a POWERFUL incentive to make their work as easy as possible. And, frankly, if the IG really was a collection of "snowflake armies" as nomotog says that problem would be absolutely impossible. Specialist troops? A pain in the ass for the Munitorum, but necessary to deal with situations that the standard troops can't. Space Marines? Thankfully, the Munitorum doesn't need to deal with supplying them, they do it themselves. But totally individual planetary forces, each equipped with unique weapons and requiring unique logistical support? That isn't going to work, unless each planet is also individually supporting their own troops. And that would require each planet to have a significant fleet, and their own mini-Munitorum to run the whole process. In addition, it would foster independence and weaken the chain of command, make it much more difficult to coordinate the ships in orbit, increase the frequency of errors and clashes of jurisdiction. . . it would be a mess. The issue of supplying an interstellar army is difficult enough; I think the Munitorum would take strenuous steps to reduce the complexity, even if that meant deposing a Planetary Governor every now and then.

Void__Dragon wrote:AP4 Heavy Bolters couldn't penetrate the exoskeleton of a Necron Warrior when fired in a volley in the Necron codex, Space Marine Power Armour is similarly durable.

Do you have a page reference? I've glanced over the fluff, but bolters seemed quite effective in the texts I found. It seems odd that the heavier version would be less so. Unless it was a Wraith, given that those have invulnerable saves. The Codex seems to call all Necrons "skeletal warriors" at times, which, given that a single unit has an almost similar name, could lead to confusion?

Void__Dragon wrote:Bolters in the fluff aren't likely to penetrate the chestplate of Power Armour, and the helmet of Power Armour when worn by a Marine has withstood point-blank firing from a bolt-pistol, only dazing the Marine. Said bolter-rounds did, in fact, just "richochet off."

Now that I find somewhat hard to believe, as these helmets really aren't very thick and bolt ammunition is supposed to detonate at impact. Unless that point-blank shot was only a grazing hit. Where is that from?

To clarify, I do not doubt that bolters may not be the most efficient weapon at penetrating power armour, but invulnerability just sounds wrong. Just like hellgun shots ricocheting off power armour. Which I find is a bit hilarious on its own. Did the Berserkers polish their suits before going into battle that they can throw off high-energy-explode-on-impact las rounds?

Iracundus wrote:This particular autogun is an Agripinaa pattern, type III. It fires a long 8.25 calibre round, on either single shot, semi-automatic, and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 meres per second.

Calibre 8.25? That's a muzzle diameter of 200mm. Space Marines are getting jealous!

For comparison, heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 ...

Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Bolters in the fluff aren't likely to penetrate the chestplate of Power Armour, and the helmet of Power Armour when worn by a Marine has withstood point-blank firing from a bolt-pistol, only dazing the Marine. Said bolter-rounds did, in fact, just "richochet off."

Now that I find somewhat hard to believe, as these helmets really aren't very thick and bolt ammunition is supposed to detonate at impact. Unless that point-blank shot was only a grazing hit. Where is that from?

In Chapters Due, Uriel Ventris gets shot in face, point blank by a Bolter. The round only grazed his helmet, but it still hit with enough force to knock him on his ass and destroy his eye.

Well the thing is, Everything you read about the IG says that they are in fact snowflake armies. The description goes that you will see tribal army fighting side to side next to futuristic armies. The picture of them in the BRB shows us 6 regiments and they all look different. Even with different lasguns. It's a rule of world building that you show people the rule before the exception. Seem to be the rule that IG armies are snowflakes. They don't even tell us about this hypothetical standardized army. I mean if that was the case, why don't they tell us that is the case.


You are right about it would be a logistical nightmare, but the IG IS a logistical nightmare. They don't own there own ships, They don't own a lot of ther own production, They even use vehicles/weapons that they can't even make anymore. Not to mention that your supplies lines literally go through hell.

Coolyo294 wrote:In Chapters Due, Uriel Ventris gets shot in face, point blank by a Bolter. The round only grazed his helmet, but it still hit with enough force to knock him on his ass and destroy his eye.

Ah, just a Black Library novel.
But to destroy this eye, would the round not have to ... uh ... get some of its damage through the armour?

nomotog wrote:Well the thing is, Everything you read about the IG says that they are in fact snowflake armies. The description goes that you will see tribal army fighting side to side next to futuristic armies. The picture of them in the BRB shows us 6 regiments and they all look different. Even with different lasguns. It's a rule of world building that you show people the rule before the exception. Seem to be the rule that IG armies are snowflakes. They don't even tell us about this hypothetical standardized army. I mean if that was the case, why don't they tell us that is the case.

See the 4th edition IG Codex color section. It shows a sampling of regiments from different worlds, all represented with one of the existing lines of IG models (since it is obviously not feasible to have a separate line for every world in the Imperium).

We see jungle trops like the Catachans and 898th Cromaryn, desert warriors like the Tallarn and the 35th Orcallian. We see troops in winter gear like the Valhallans and the 11th Kado. We see a range of Cadian troops and then also other worlds with troops outfitted like Cadians, including worlds that have had passing mention in other background such as the Harakoni Warhawks and the Brimlock Dragoons (Damocles Gulf Crusade).

What this shows is there is variation but still variation that mostly conforms to several patterns of armament and equipment.

In the Imperial Armour 5, on p. 16, it describes the Krieg infantry as armed with lasguns with 21 megathule (whatever that is) powerpacks as opposed to the more common ones like the 19 megathule one (as described on p. 16, 4th ed. IG Codex as being what is used in the Kantrael manufactured lasguns supplied to Cadia).

Having some variation does not exactly disprove the assertion by BeRzErKeR that the IG is a monolithic entity focused on standardization. It is still standardized in the way a fast food menu is standardized. There are choices and variation but they are constrained.

Lynataer wrote:Calibre 8.25? That's a muzzle diameter of 200mm. Space Marines are getting jealous!

For comparison, heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 ...

How and from where are you getting this? Where does it give a heavy bolter's stats? The IA stuff just seems to say the autopistols shoot 4.10mm rounds, while autoguns shoot 8.25mm rounds. How is that so ridiculous compared to an AK-47 with 7.62mm rounds?

@Iracundus; He was making a joke. You said 8.25 CALIBER, which is different from 8.25 MM. An 8.25 caliber firearm would have an internal barrel diameter of 8.25 inches, meaning it would be significantly wider than your hand is long. For that matter, it would be larger than some artillery pieces.

Iracundus wrote:How and from where are you getting this? Where does it give a heavy bolter's stats? The IA stuff just seems to say the autopistols shoot 4.10mm rounds, while autoguns shoot 8.25mm rounds. How is that so ridiculous compared to an AK-47 with 7.62mm rounds?

No. Your quote / the IA says "calibre 8.25". Whenever calibre refers to mm it has to be specifically added. By default, calibre is always inches. And 8.25 inches are 20.9something cm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Bolt weapon calibre is pretty much disseminated all over the fluff. Off the top of my head the 3E rulebook has a very good explanation on boltguns where it says they are calibre 0.75.
I'd need some time to track down a source for the heavy bolter - that said, it wouldn't even be necessary, the boltgun example above is just as good.
And here you have a pic for proof.

BeRzErKeR wrote:@Iracundus; He was making a joke. You said 8.25 CALIBER, which is different from 8.25 MM. An 8.25 caliber firearm would have an internal barrel diameter of 8.25 inches, meaning it would be significantly wider than your hand is long. For that matter, it would be larger than some artillery pieces.

It's not a joke, sadly - his quote is precise, the IA does say "calibre". Which baffles me a bit, given that the book is otherwise pretty well written from a military point of view.

Lynata wrote:

Iracundus wrote:How and from where are you getting this? Where does it give a heavy bolter's stats? The IA stuff just seems to say the autopistols shoot 4.10mm rounds, while autoguns shoot 8.25mm rounds. How is that so ridiculous compared to an AK-47 with 7.62mm rounds?

No. Your quote / the IA says "calibre 8.25". Whenever calibre refers to mm it has to be specifically added. By default, calibre is always inches. And 8.25 inches are 20.9something cm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Bolt weapon calibre is pretty much disseminated all over the fluff. Off the top of my head the 3E rulebook has a very good explanation on boltguns where it says they are calibre 0.75.
I'd need some time to track down a source for the heavy bolter - that said, it wouldn't even be necessary, the boltgun example above is just as good.
And here you have a pic for proof.

Considering the Imperium in 40K appears to be pure metric, with no explicit non-metric units stated, I suppose the best that can be done is to handwave that the default has changed so that in the Imperium's time it is to give caliber/calibre in mm.

Iracundus wrote:Considering the Imperium in 40K appears to be pure metric, with no explicit non-metric units stated, I suppose the best that can be done is to handwave that the default has changed so that in the Imperium's time it is to give caliber/calibre in mm.

Except that all studio sources stick to inches (as you can also see on the image) and lbs. I can surely find more like that one, if you don't believe me.

The most logical explanation is that the IA writer simply forgot to add a "mm" there, I guess.

NATO is a treaty organization, not an empire which rules by divine right.

Just remember that when trying to compare NATO's attemtps at standardization to the Imperium's.

My comparison of NATO/ Soviet supply systems against that of IoM is still valid: if, on earth, one collection of "voluntary" partners and one monolithic bloc can't get standardisation, what hope of enforcing it across galaxies?

Fluff and game-wise, we're expected to suspend common sense and accept that in 40k, huge inter stellar ships swan about collecting random regiments here and there, wander through the warp and , hopefully, reach their intended destination in time to do battle--with swords?

There may well be some munitorum burocrat issuing diktats left ,right & centre, but I rather imagine millions of astropaths on distant worlds coming back with "say again, over", "what?" " sorry, can't hear you" and, of course " please stay on the line, your call is important to us"

Human nature, bummer ain't it?

Lynata wrote:Do you have a page reference? I've glanced over the fluff, but bolters seemed quite effective in the texts I found. It seems odd that the heavier version would be less so. Unless it was a Wraith, given that those have invulnerable saves. The Codex seems to call all Necrons "skeletal warriors" at times, which, given that a single unit has an almost similar name, could lead to confusion?

Page 56. Though, one part I forgot is that the mass-reactive core had been taken out of the heavy bolter's rounds, so it's not really valid, nd no longer worthy of discussion. Though, earlier in the codex Necron Warriors withstand normal bolter fire pretty handily, and were virtually immune to Lasguns.

Lynata wrote:Now that I find somewhat hard to believe, as these helmets really aren't very thick and bolt ammunition is supposed to detonate at impact. Unless that point-blank shot was only a grazing hit. Where is that from?

To clarify, I do not doubt that bolters may not be the most efficient weapon at penetrating power armour, but invulnerability just sounds wrong. Just like hellgun shots ricocheting off power armour. Which I find is a bit hilarious on its own. Did the Berserkers polish their suits before going into battle that they can throw off high-energy-explode-on-impact las rounds?

The Chaos Space Marines codex, page 45. A Chaos Marine takes three bolter-rounds to the chest and just gets angry. He open-fires with his bolt pistol at point-blank range in the face of a Loyalist, who recoils under the salvo, but is otherwise fine. And detonate upon impact? I was under the impression they were timed to detonate after penetration. In fact, looking at the Imperial Guard codex I happen to have open at the moment, it says just that: "The boltgun, or 'bolter,' is a rare and devastating weapon among the ranks of the Imperial Guard. It fires self-propelled missiles, or 'bolts', that explode upon penetrating its target, blowing it up from the inside."

On a similar note, in the 5e Imperial Guard codex, it notes that Storm Troopers wearing Carapace Armour can "wade through a torrent of small-arms fire that would kill a normal Guardsman outright." Just for another studio source on the protection varieties of armour can provide, and when it says "small-arms fire" I doubt it is referring to the Lasgun. That's not the type of "small arms fire" Storm Troopers have to deal with generally.

Don't misunderstand, Power Armour is by no means infallible, but generally the boltgun has to find a weakness in the Power Armour to do any real damage (The Necron codex actually notes it is similar for a Necron Warrior, noting that though an Inquisitor was capable of downing a Necron Warrior with his first burst, his second found no weaknesses in the exoskeleton), for instance, a bolter that hits the side of the knee will probably penetrate the armour, hell, a Las-round will as well. I think the joints in general tend to be "weak spots," actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:If Lasguns go through 2m of concrete, why does everyone get 4+ coversaves nowdays?

Partially because concrete isn't used that much in construction I don't believe, stronger alternatives like Plasteel or Permacrete are. I also think the concealment cover brings you is an issue.

Though I wouldn't think about it too much. Trees can apparently protect you from the blast of a Demolisher Cannon.

Void__Dragon wrote:A Chaos Marine takes three bolter-rounds to the chest and just gets angry. He open-fires with his bolt pistol at point-blank range in the face of a Loyalist, who recoils under the salvo, but is otherwise fine.

I'm actually sort of okay with that, what I find completely absurd is the idea that bolt rounds (and hellguns) would have no effect whatsoever. Marines in particular are rather tough, which adds to the protective value of their armour. Many shots that "punch through" may still have little effect. Let's just say that the depiction of that scene in IA felt really wrong to me. That's like two squads of Marines meeting, emptying their bolters, and then deciding to part ways again because they realize their weapons don't do anything.

Void__Dragon wrote:And detonate upon impact? I was under the impression they were timed to detonate after penetration.

Yes, it's a "microsecond fuse" that gets primed as soon as the tip touches something. Upon penetration it will detonate within the armour - but even when not punching through it would still "blow up" in front of it. Bullets that do not penetrate their targets do not simply "fly away", they get stopped cold and burst into pieces as the kinetic force drives it further against/into the obstacle. There's some really cool slo-mo videos on youtube, you could almost consider it a form of art: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgn7MUp6UxA

Void__Dragon wrote:On a similar note, in the 5e Imperial Guard codex, it notes that Storm Troopers wearing Carapace Armour can "wade through a torrent of small-arms fire that would kill a normal Guardsman outright." Just for another studio source on the protection varieties of armour can provide, and when it says "small-arms fire" I doubt it is referring to the Lasgun. That's not the type of "small arms fire" Storm Troopers have to deal with generally.

Why shouldn't it be? The lasgun is undoubtedly the most common weapon of the known universe, and it may well be that the Imperial Guard mostly gets deployed against insurgents.

Void__Dragon wrote:Don't misunderstand, Power Armour is by no means infallible, but generally the boltgun has to find a weakness in the Power Armour to do any real damage (The Necron codex actually notes it is similar for a Necron Warrior, noting that though an Inquisitor was capable of downing a Necron Warrior with his first burst, his second found no weaknesses in the exoskeleton), for instance, a bolter that hits the side of the knee will probably penetrate the armour, hell, a Las-round will as well. I think the joints in general tend to be "weak spots," actually.

I certainly agree about "finding weak spots", but I would say they are far more common than just the joints, including areas where the plating is thinner than elsewhere (such as the helmet or the limbs or the belly). That would far better justify the stats and dice rolls on the TT, around which all fluff has been created.

From page 8 of the Codex Angels of Death:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

IG GENERAL wrote:My comparison of NATO/ Soviet supply systems against that of IoM is still valid: if, on earth, one collection of "voluntary" partners and one monolithic bloc can't get standardisation, what hope of enforcing it across galaxies?

Because it isn't voluntary. It's mandatory. Often on pain of death.

IG GENERAL wrote:My comparison of NATO/ Soviet supply systems against that of IoM is still valid: if, on earth, one collection of "voluntary" partners and one monolithic bloc can't get standardisation, what hope of enforcing it across galaxies?

Fluff and game-wise, we're expected to suspend common sense and accept that in 40k, huge inter stellar ships swan about collecting random regiments here and there, wander through the warp and , hopefully, reach their intended destination in time to do battle--with swords?

There may well be some munitorum burocrat issuing diktats left ,right & centre, but I rather imagine millions of astropaths on distant worlds coming back with "say again, over", "what?" " sorry, can't hear you" and, of course " please stay on the line, your call is important to us"

Human nature, bummer ain't it?

Everything the Imperium makes is from STCs.

The Imperium can't not have standardization.

TrollPie wrote:Lasguns are superior to modern assault rifles in every single way: more accurate, more powerful, more efficient etc. and can be charged by almost anything (even being left in the sun), making them a logistical dream come true.
As well as sci-fi materials such as plasfibre, thermoplas and such flak armour commonly contains layers of carbon fibre, which is a stronger, lighter and more heat resistant material than Kevlar.

Just a bit of nitpicking here... but if we're trying to compare real world stuff to the grimdark, we may as well get our own gear right. Carbon fibre is not more impact resistant than Kevlar. This is why modern bullet proofing uses a lot of Kevlar (among other things). I work with the stuff regularly and it is a pain. Carbon fibre is relatively brittle, and as both are composite weaves of different fibres (usually synthetic and highly carcinogenic) stuck together with a resin under pressure and heat, the strength is largely dependent on how many layers you have. More layers=more strength, but if there's any flaws in the resin, it's extremely weak. Unfortunately, there's no way to test for that without destroying it. There were a few Airbus crashes caused by this - the planes in question had a rudder made out of carbon fibre (roughly 800-850 layers of it), and this failed due to minute air bubbles in the resin. The rudder snapped off, the jet speared in, everybody died. It also corrodes the feth out of aluminum.

Apart from that, pretty sweet. As Stephen Fry once said - "All a great science fiction has to have, for me, is standardized computer cables"

Lynata wrote:I'm actually sort of okay with that, what I find completely absurd is the idea that bolt rounds (and hellguns) would have no effect whatsoever. Marines in particular are rather tough, which adds to the protective value of their armour. Many shots that "punch through" may still have little effect. Let's just say that the depiction of that scene in IA felt really wrong to me. That's like two squads of Marines meeting, emptying their bolters, and then deciding to part ways again because they realize their weapons don't do anything.

Well, it "scorched" the armour? Does that mean that it burned it, but didn't penetrate and harm the Marine, or what? Also, keep in mind, ceramite conducts almost no heat, it's very effective as a defense against energy weaponry such as lasguns.

Lynata wrote:Yes, it's a "microsecond fuse" that gets primed as soon as the tip touches something. Upon penetration it will detonate within the armour - but even when not punching through it would still "blow up" in front of it. Bullets that do not penetrate their targets do not simply "fly away", they get stopped cold and burst into pieces as the kinetic force drives it further against/into the obstacle. There's some really cool slo-mo videos on youtube, you could almost consider it a form of art: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgn7MUp6UxA

Well, even if it explodes in front of it, I doubt it would penetrate the armour. Modern tank armour is resistant to explosive force, Power Armour beats modern Tank armour.

Lynata wrote:Why shouldn't it be? The lasgun is undoubtedly the most common weapon of the known universe, and it may well be that the Imperial Guard mostly gets deployed against insurgents.

I would argue the Guard in general has to deal with Orks more than anything, and why would you design armour that can only defend against the bare minimum weaponry in the setting? Something that protects against a las-round isn't going to stop a bolt-round.

Lynata wrote:I certainly agree about "finding weak spots", but I would say they are far more common than just the joints, including areas where the plating is thinner than elsewhere (such as the helmet or the limbs or the belly). That would far better justify the stats and dice rolls on the TT, around which all fluff has been created.

From page 8 of the Codex Angels of Death:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

The joints are just but one example, and it's been demonstrated that the helmet can withstand bolter fire. While the arms would likely be weaker than the chest-plate or the pauldrons (especially the pauldrons), I don't see any reason for a las-round to be guaranteed to breach it, not to mention his arms are pretty small targets. Relatively, of course. His stomach also seems well-armoured to me, as does the majority of the leg, though, I haven't seen any fluff that detailed the exact weak points of power armour, sadly.

Yes, I've seen you quote that passage numerous times, but I stand by what I said before: Power Armour wasn't designed with deflecting Las-rounds in mind. It was made for Astartes to Astartes combat, since Mark VII power armour, the most common type in the setting, was created during the Horus Heresy.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, it "scorched" the armour? Does that mean that it burned it, but didn't penetrate and harm the Marine, or what?

It did nothing. The shots "ricocheted" off the armour. Yes, high-energy las rounds that are supposed to explode on impact were mirrored back by the shiny Berserker armour. >_>

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, even if it explodes in front of it, I doubt it would penetrate the armour.

No, no, not penetrate of course. But weaken. Though it is only artist interpretation, I recall lots of images where Marines had chestplates with little "blast craters" on them - that's kinda how I'd imagine it.

Void__Dragon wrote:I would argue the Guard in general has to deal with Orks more than anything, and why would you design armour that can only defend against the bare minimum weaponry in the setting? Something that protects against a las-round isn't going to stop a bolt-round.

Because armour that withstands more is so heavy that you need powered fibre-bundle actuators. Even carapace chestplates are already described as heavy and encumbering, ask yourself how an entire suit would feel like - I'd argue you cannot get more out of it without drastically reducing the trooper's mobility.

As for orks - given how much internal strife is pointed out in the books ("internecine wars are commonplace and often mankind faces its greatest threat from within" ), I'm not sure if I'd not put them 2nd, if only because the really big Waaaghs seem comparatively rare, whereas heresy and treason seem to lurk at every corner. Some times it's an apostate cardinal, other times a noble who does not want to pay his tithes, yet other times a world or a regiment gets infiltrated by a Chaos cult...
But even then, the standard weapon of orks is the shoota, and that one only has AP6. Even the common trooper's flak armour would allow an armour save against that.

Void__Dragon wrote:While the arms would likely be weaker than the chest-plate or the pauldrons (especially the pauldrons), I don't see any reason for a las-round to be guaranteed to breach it, not to mention his arms are pretty small targets. Relatively, of course. His stomach also seems well-armoured to me, as does the majority of the leg, though, I haven't seen any fluff that detailed the exact weak points of power armour, sadly.

Not guaranteed, but having a proper chance. Space Marines can get felled by ordinary lasguns - a high-powered version should fare even better and not just leave a couple of black spots on the plate.

Void__Dragon wrote:Yes, I've seen you quote that passage numerous times, but I stand by what I said before: Power Armour wasn't designed with deflecting Las-rounds in mind. It was made for Astartes to Astartes combat, since Mark VII power armour, the most common type in the setting, was created during the Horus Heresy.

But that's not what the sentence addresses. Lasguns are arguably amongst the most common small arms; that goes for the Horus Heresy as well, given that you had not only Astartes vs Astartes, but Astartes + Imperial Army vs Astartes + Imperial Army. Let's compare the quote with the tabletop mechanics: A Space Marine has a chance of 83.5% to negate a lasgun hit (calculating both his armour safe and his toughness safe), which falls exactly into the end spectrum of that fluff quote. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

Damn, we've come far from the original issue.

IA actually introduces a lot of other weird ideas, too, so maybe we shouldn't get too hung up on this one. For example, there's one Order of Sisters using the colour blue, despite all sources saying they're only using white, red and black in various combinations. Other times they mention several Storm Trooper regiments where GW books clarify that it is only a single one. And the planet type of Ryza gets switched for apparently no reason. It's just ... well, not drastic stuff, but it's the usual minor sloppiness you see in lots of BL novels.
To be fair, much of it can be accredited simply due to it being different writers; it is next to impossible to keep track of all the minor details that were mentioned by GW somewhere years ago unless you're one of the few guys who worked on these books. But at the end of the day, I don't think there is much of a difference between BL and FW. Though that shouldn't keep anyone from adopting things they like for their own personal interpretation, as long as they do not conflict the studio material.

Lynata wrote:It did nothing. The shots "ricocheted" off the armour. Yes, high-energy las rounds that are supposed to explode on impact were mirrored back by the shiny Berserker armour. >_>

Hm. What?

I'll admit that's peculiar. Even were they normal lasguns, for them to "ricochet" is just stupid, being stopped by the plate of power armour is one thing, but even las-rounds can weaken the chest plate of power armour, and even breach it after wearing it down.

Lynata wrote:No, no, not penetrate of course. But weaken. Though it is only artist interpretation, I recall lots of images where Marines had chestplates with little "blast craters" on them - that's kinda how I'd imagine it.

Well, even las fire should be able to weaken it, so I would agree.

Lynata wrote:Because armour that withstands more is so heavy that you need powered fibre-bundle actuators. Even carapace chestplates are already described as heavy and encumbering, ask yourself how an entire suit would feel like - I'd argue you cannot get more out of it without drastically reducing the trooper's mobility.

As for orks - given how much internal strife is pointed out in the books ("internecine wars are commonplace and often mankind faces its greatest threat from within" ), I'm not sure if I'd not put them 2nd, if only because the really big Waaaghs seem comparatively rare, whereas heresy and treason seem to lurk at every corner. Some times it's an apostate cardinal, other times a noble who does not want to pay his tithes, yet other times a world or a regiment gets infiltrated by a Chaos cult...
But even then, the standard weapon of orks is the shoota, and that one only has AP6. Even the common trooper's flak armour would allow an armour save against that.

Carapace is heavy for a reason, because the thick ceramite plates offer a considerable amount of protection. Though, admittedly, it lacks the same amount of showings Power Armour has. Though, it is said to be easily capable of stopping a "bullet," whatever the hell that means. I don't understand the need for vagueness.

But Orks are the most numerous race in the galaxy, and while there are not as many big Waaaghs, there are numerous smaller ones mentioned often enough. Admittedly, I did somehow forget Shootas and Sluggas were AP6.

Lynata wrote:Not guaranteed, but having a proper chance. Space Marines can get felled by ordinary lasguns - a high-powered version should fare even better and not just leave a couple of black spots on the plate.

Well, were it on the chest and shoulders, I could perhaps see that. The chest and shoulders are especially well-armoured.

Lynata wrote:But that's not what the sentence addresses. Lasguns are arguably amongst the most common small arms; that goes for the Horus Heresy as well, given that you had not only Astartes vs Astartes, but Astartes + Imperial Army vs Astartes + Imperial Army. Let's compare the quote with the tabletop mechanics: A Space Marine has a chance of 83.5% to negate a lasgun hit (calculating both his armour safe and his toughness safe), which falls exactly into the end spectrum of that fluff quote. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

Damn, we've come far from the original issue.

IA actually introduces a lot of other weird ideas, too, so maybe we shouldn't get too hung up on this one. For example, there's one Order of Sisters using the colour blue, despite all sources saying they're only using white, red and black in various combinations. Other times they mention several Storm Trooper regiments where GW books clarify that it is only a single one. And the planet type of Ryza gets switched for apparently no reason. It's just ... well, not drastic stuff, but it's the usual minor sloppiness you see in lots of BL novels.
To be fair, much of it can be accredited simply due to it being different writers; it is next to impossible to keep track of all the minor details that were mentioned by GW somewhere years ago unless you're one of the few guys who worked on these books. But at the end of the day, I don't think there is much of a difference between BL and FW. Though that shouldn't keep anyone from adopting things they like for their own personal interpretation, as long as they do not conflict the studio material.

That's the thing, Mark VII Power Armour was made to be the best Power Armour to date, obviously. Compare this to Mark IV Power Armour, the most common variety of pre-Heresy power armour, originally conceived as the final, best suit of Power Armour, was designed before the Heresy, and for combatting aliens. By this time, the existence of Orks, Eldar, and other xenos was well-known, so it would be made to withstand more than a lasgun. Mark VII power armour more so. Although guardsmen did defect during the Heresy, Mark VII power armour was made with fighting fellow Astartes in mind, not guardsmen.

I haven't read much of Imperial Armour short of their Apocalypse books, so can't really say. And to be fair, there are inconsistencies within studio material as well.

Heh. The OP's......op struck a chord with me, as I wrote my Master's thesis on logistics. Specifically, the logistics of the 101st Airborne in the First Gulf War. However, any of you who may be in college and have access to Proquest's Theses and Dissertations probably won't be able to see it; to my knowledge, Austin Peay State U still doesn't send its theses to Proquest. Which makes me mad.

That said, I've heard the Bradley quote before, but never attributed to him. I'm much more a fan of a quote that Admiral King once said: "I don't know what the hell this "logistics" is that Marshall is always talking about, but I want some of it."

Now, something else that I feel has been overlooked is the fuel source used for the Guard. Promethium. As far as I can tell, Russes use it (and whatever else they want to stick in there as well), Chimerae use it, Valks and Vultures use it, Sentinels use it, and so on.

Single fuel sources are *amazing* in terms of logistical simplicity. Imagine having to transport diesel for some vehicles, and jet fuel for others. Throw in gasoline for generators or whatever. It'd suck.

Now, with the single fuel thing, I believe that there are also lasgun charging ports in Chimerae, as well as generators (probably powered by promethium) that also recharge powerpacks. So, this means that, in some cases, fuel = ammo. Which just makes it even MORE odd, in my thinking that the Guard can't use Multilasers as squad heavy weapons. Rather than having to bring down solid ammo from offworld, they could just hook up a big ol' battery to a generator and recharge. Ditto for lascannons.

That's all for now. I'll check back later.

Ogiwan wrote:
Now, with the single fuel thing, I believe that there are also lasgun charging ports in Chimerae, as well as generators (probably powered by promethium) that also recharge powerpacks. So, this means that, in some cases, fuel = ammo. Which just makes it even MORE odd, in my thinking that the Guard can't use Multilasers as squad heavy weapons. Rather than having to bring down solid ammo from offworld, they could just hook up a big ol' battery to a generator and recharge. Ditto for lascannons.

Hmm. I didn't know that; if so, you're right, it's odd. Given that directed energy weapons are the most common armament of the Guard (see lasguns) having a simple 'upscaled' version such as the multilaser as a SAW-equivalent would seem to make sense. Hell, for that matter, they ought to be using multilasers instead of heavy bolters!

The only argument against that idea I can think of at present is that you'd lose some energy in transfer, so you'd need more fuel overall. . . but we've already assumed that problem away with the lasgun. Perhaps multilasers deplete a battery too rapidly to be useful? They supposedly fire at a much higher rate than lascannons, even if each individual shot is weaker, so it might just be that in order to be effective they require a continuously-active power system like a running Chimera engine?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say at least some regiments DO use multilasers. I model them, and then use them as Heavy Bolters in the rules...

...but they are "multilasers" in the fluff sense.

ALSO: to the OP, this is a wonderful post. It's what I keep telling people who claim an Abrams will beat a Russ. The Russ has plasteel-adamantite armor layers, and a gun with better chemical charges in both the cartridge and the HEAT tip.

Same thing with the lasguns.

Bravo, sir, bravo.

It's actually been stated multiple times by GW that the reason the Multilaser is vehicle mounted and not infantry portable is because of the energy requirements and the need for an advanced cooling system.

As far as the logistics of heavy bolters--apparently, the shells are stupid easy to produce.

That's been said of the plasma cannon too. If they can find cooling for that, then surely they could get cooling for a man-portable multilaser! Not to mention they have power packs for walking tanks that apparently last millenia for space marines.

Except the Imperial Guard can't field man-portable Plasma Cannons.

The Space Marines can field them, but that's what those backpacks on Plasma Cannon Devastators contain. An advanced cooling and energy regulation system to prevent it from blowing up.

And you've missed the point either way. A multilaser is not a lascannon or a plasma cannon, which are going to be firing maybe one or two shots a minute.

A multilaser is putting down hundreds of shots. It's a suppression weapon, like a heavy bolter.

If we take the game literally, the multilaser only shoots 3x as fast as a lascannon, with much less than 33% of the lascannon's power per shot...

Unit1126PLL wrote:If we take the game literally, the multilaser only shoots 3x as fast as a lascannon, with much less than 33% of the lascannon's power per shot...

Except you have to remember that game stats are reflecting balance, not necessarily fluff.

A multilaser puts down "a continuous, withering hail of fire" to suppress an enemy and tear through hordes of unarmored or lightly armored foes.
A Lascannon fires a single, continuous beam that lasts for a brief time and deals ungodly amounts of damage to anything that gets in its way.

The two are not comparable, except for having "las" in their name. It's like trying to say that a 120mm cannon off the Abrams can be turned into a crew served weapon.

Feasibly? Maybe it could. But it wouldn't be practical.

Kanluwen wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:If we take the game literally, the multilaser only shoots 3x as fast as a lascannon, with much less than 33% of the lascannon's power per shot...

Except you have to remember that game stats are reflecting balance, not necessarily fluff.

A multilaser puts down "a continuous, withering hail of fire" to suppress an enemy and tear through hordes of unarmored or lightly armored foes.
A Lascannon fires a single, continuous beam that lasts for a brief time and deals ungodly amounts of damage to anything that gets in its way.

The two are not comparable, except for having "las" in their name. It's like trying to say that a 120mm cannon off the Abrams can be turned into a crew served weapon.

Feasibly? Maybe it could. But it wouldn't be practical.

Except it's not like saying that at all... the 120mm gun on the Abrams is more like the lascannon, which in 40k IS a crew-served weapon.

The closest modern on-vehicle weapon to a multilaser's function is an autocannon ... which is a crew-served weapon in the Guard.

A continuous, withering hail of fire seems fitting for a multilaser... and a SAW. Incidentally, the Heavy Bolter is nearly identical in function, but requires more maintenance and supply. Why not multilasers in some regiments? Coolant problems? Perhaps.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:If we take the game literally, the multilaser only shoots 3x as fast as a lascannon, with much less than 33% of the lascannon's power per shot...

Except you have to remember that game stats are reflecting balance, not necessarily fluff.

A multilaser puts down "a continuous, withering hail of fire" to suppress an enemy and tear through hordes of unarmored or lightly armored foes.
A Lascannon fires a single, continuous beam that lasts for a brief time and deals ungodly amounts of damage to anything that gets in its way.

The two are not comparable, except for having "las" in their name. It's like trying to say that a 120mm cannon off the Abrams can be turned into a crew served weapon.

Feasibly? Maybe it could. But it wouldn't be practical.

Except it's not like saying that at all... the 120mm gun on the Abrams is more like the lascannon, which in 40k IS a crew-served weapon.

Do you realize how silly of a statement that is?

I'm not talking about the size or role of the weapon. I'm talking about the practicality of it.
A Lascannon is a weapon that is relatively simple to maintain, relatively simple to operate, and requires little interaction on the crew's part.

A Multilaser is not that. A Multilaser requires constant upkeep and input or the thing can blow itself up.

It's worth noting that even Imperial Guard Tarantula Sentry Guns do not use Multilasers. They use Heavy Bolters or Lascannons as standard, due to the ruggedness of the weapon design.

The closest modern on-vehicle weapon to a multilaser's function is an autocannon ... which is a crew-served weapon in the Guard.

Uh no. The closest modern on-vehicle weapon to a multilaser's function is not an autocannon.
The autocannon of today is like the autocannon of the future.
The "closest modern on-vehicle weapon" to a multilaser's function is the GAU-17/A. It puts out a buttload of fire on the enemy, hopefully wounding or killing them but mostly forcing them to keep their heads down.

A continuous, withering hail of fire seems fitting for a multilaser... and a SAW. Incidentally, the Heavy Bolter is nearly identical in function, but requires more maintenance and supply. Why not multilasers in some regiments? Coolant problems? Perhaps.

Again:
It's not a "perhaps".

That's actually stated as one of the reasons why. Multilasers are finnicky weapons, which require constant maintenance--not to mention cooling shrouds and an obscene amount of power.

You might see some Forge Worlds with emplaced Multilasers or them grafted into their Skitarri, but the Imperial Guard at large will not have them.

For most purposes, simple twin-linked heavy stubbers will do the same job.

Multilasers are pretty heavy firepower even for an HMG, capable of destroying many armored transports (even Rhinos from the front).

Kanluwen wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:If we take the game literally, the multilaser only shoots 3x as fast as a lascannon, with much less than 33% of the lascannon's power per shot...

Except you have to remember that game stats are reflecting balance, not necessarily fluff.

A multilaser puts down "a continuous, withering hail of fire" to suppress an enemy and tear through hordes of unarmored or lightly armored foes.
A Lascannon fires a single, continuous beam that lasts for a brief time and deals ungodly amounts of damage to anything that gets in its way.

The two are not comparable, except for having "las" in their name. It's like trying to say that a 120mm cannon off the Abrams can be turned into a crew served weapon.

Feasibly? Maybe it could. But it wouldn't be practical.

Except it's not like saying that at all... the 120mm gun on the Abrams is more like the lascannon, which in 40k IS a crew-served weapon.

Do you realize how silly of a statement that is?

I'm not talking about the size or role of the weapon. I'm talking about the practicality of it.
A Lascannon is a weapon that is relatively simple to maintain, relatively simple to operate, and requires little interaction on the crew's part.

A Multilaser is not that. A Multilaser requires constant upkeep and input or the thing can blow itself up.

It's worth noting that even Imperial Guard Tarantula Sentry Guns do not use Multilasers. They use Heavy Bolters or Lascannons as standard, due to the ruggedness of the weapon design.

The closest modern on-vehicle weapon to a multilaser's function is an autocannon ... which is a crew-served weapon in the Guard.

Uh no. The closest modern on-vehicle weapon to a multilaser's function is not an autocannon.
The autocannon of today is like the autocannon of the future.
The "closest modern on-vehicle weapon" to a multilaser's function is the GAU-17/A. It puts out a buttload of fire on the enemy, hopefully wounding or killing them but mostly forcing them to keep their heads down.

A continuous, withering hail of fire seems fitting for a multilaser... and a SAW. Incidentally, the Heavy Bolter is nearly identical in function, but requires more maintenance and supply. Why not multilasers in some regiments? Coolant problems? Perhaps.

Again:
It's not a "perhaps".

That's actually stated as one of the reasons why. Multilasers are finnicky weapons, which require constant maintenance--not to mention cooling shrouds and an obscene amount of power.

You might see some Forge Worlds with emplaced Multilasers or them grafted into their Skitarri, but the Imperial Guard at large will not have them.

For a second I thought you meant the Gau-8 >_>

As for multilasers, I'd guess it's more like a Browning m2, with a higher rate of fire.... so an M3M.

The Punisher cannon and assault cannon are GAU-style weapons. Both have a higher ROF than the multilaser. The Multilaser is not any faster firing than a regular MG, or quick-firing autocannon. Hence my example.

If it is that finnicky, why do they use it ubiquitously on their armored transports? I'd replace it with the near-identical Heavy Bolter if it's really as bad as it seems to be when it comes to maintenance.

Also note: ROF wise, if the Multilaser is a GAU-17, then the Executioner is a plasma cannon with similar ROF !!

You're focusing far too much on the physical similarities and not the logistical similarities.

GAU weaponry is not mounted outside of vehicles because the gun requires an electric current to operate and a constant ammunition feed.

Multilasers are not mounted outside of vehicles because the gun requires a stable firing platform, a constant energy source, and a constantly regulated cooling mechanism.
Multilasers which are finnicky, are able to be constantly maintained by the Tech-Priests and Servitors who maintain the Chimeras.


And for the record?
Chimeras commonly are fitted with turret mounted Heavy Bolters. But it's most commonly done on Chimeras that serve alongside veteran regiments or that are serving in areas where they'll face Tyranids(where the projectile's heavy mass comes in handy) or the Traitor Legions (where the heavy bolter's armor penetration and volume of fire comes into play).

Very interesting read. Thank you kindly good sir!

Kanluwen wrote:You're focusing far too much on the physical similarities and not the logistical similarities.

GAU weaponry is not mounted outside of vehicles because the gun requires an electric current to operate and a constant ammunition feed.

Multilasers are not mounted outside of vehicles because the gun requires a stable firing platform, a constant energy source, and a constantly regulated cooling mechanism.
Multilasers which are finnicky, are able to be constantly maintained by the Tech-Priests and Servitors who maintain the Chimeras.

Sounds a lot like a lascannon, or perhaps a plasma gun- stable firing platform, constant energy source, cooling mechanisms...

Can the techpriests and servitors not look after some regimental heavy weapons? Especially if the chimeras are equipped with oh-so-reliable heavy bolters, so their services will be demanded less...

look, all I'm saying is it's possible that a multilaser could be found on the battlefield as a crew served weapon in a similar role to the heavy bolter, somewhere in the galaxy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You're focusing far too much on the physical similarities and not the logistical similarities.

GAU weaponry is not mounted outside of vehicles because the gun requires an electric current to operate and a constant ammunition feed.

Multilasers are not mounted outside of vehicles because the gun requires a stable firing platform, a constant energy source, and a constantly regulated cooling mechanism.
Multilasers which are finnicky, are able to be constantly maintained by the Tech-Priests and Servitors who maintain the Chimeras.

Sounds a lot like a lascannon, or perhaps a plasma gun- stable firing platform, constant energy source, cooling mechanisms...

Plasma Guns do not require a stable firing platform. Plasma Guns are manportable, single man weapons.
Plasma Cannons are not fielded by infantry outside of the Astartes wielding them. They can be mounted on vehicles though, and Plasma Cannon Sentinels are rather new.

Lascannons are best used from prepared positions, and are generally static emplaced weapons alongside of autocannons.
Heavy Bolters and Rocket Launchers are generally considered to be the more 'mobile' heavy weapons and carried in Chimera mounted squads.

Can the techpriests and servitors not look after some regimental heavy weapons? Especially if the chimeras are equipped with oh-so-reliable heavy bolters, so their services will be demanded less...

Looking after weapons is not the purview of techpriests and servitors. It's the Regiment's armorers/camp followers who maintain the majority of weapons, and multilasers are not worth the effort to train people to maintain.

look, all I'm saying is it's possible that a multilaser could be found on the battlefield as a crew served weapon in a similar role to the heavy bolter, somewhere in the galaxy.

And all I'm saying is that it won't be, because GW has gone out of its way to say that it isn't done.
The closest thing is you'll find the forces of the Mechanicus having gun servitors with them fused to the body. You might feasibly find a few cases where a highly advanced world might have Multilasers as some kind of emplaced weapons, etc--but never as crew served weapons being hauled around the battlefield.

Kanluwen wrote:
That's actually stated as one of the reasons why. Multilasers are finnicky weapons, which require constant maintenance--not to mention cooling shrouds and an obscene amount of power.

This claim has been made multiple times but no proof has been provided. Where exactly is this stated? Quote and cite it.

Well, if a Sentinel can power a multilaser....the entire mechanism can't be that bulky, can it?

Ogiwan wrote:Well, if a Sentinel can power a multilaser....the entire mechanism can't be that bulky, can it?

A Sentinel is not as small as you seem to think it is.

It probably depends on how you perceive licensed material. After all, there were novels about Marines carrying multilasers...

That bit aside, I actually have to agree with Kan here, though I do not recall an actual reason given in the studio material itself. I would say man-portable multilasers don't exist because heavy bolters are almost as good (slightly more armour penetration, slightly less strength) whilst being notably easier to transport - at least regarding the weapon; I have no idea how fast a multilaser burns through its batteries and how much they weigh.
Maybe the Imperium would also be capable of fielding a weapon somewhere between the hellgun and the multilaser, which trades some of its larger cousin's strength for a decrease in size, but that weapon would then clearly lose out against the heavy bolter. And/or maybe the technology got lost. *shrugs*

It's not in the rules and it's comparatively easy to find potential reasons for why they aren't, so ...

Just my two shells, though.

Kanluwen wrote:A Sentinel is not as small as you seem to think it is.

The legs are about the height of a human (model), and the Sentinel's cockpit is about the height of a human (model), and about the length of two humans (models) and the width of about 1 human (model).

Granted, GWs ability to portray realistic models is only slightly worse than their ability to produce realistic fluff.

Still, though....I'm not seeing that much in the way of space in a Sentinel. I mean, the Multilaser capacitor is probably underneath the pilot's seat, where the ML plugs in, and that's not a particularly large space. If you're worried about it burning through batteries odiously quickly, well then....give each guy in the squad a battery. Its not like 20th century armies didn't do the same thing for their squad automatic weapons.

Hell, if that is an issue, then how else does a squad carry around all the necessary heavy bolter ammo to keep their SAW fed? After all, they have roughly the same rate of fire. I'm also more than willing to bet that the equivalent amount of HB shots is larger and heavier than the same amount of ML shots, for one unit of fire. Once you factor in recharging locally versus resupplying from operational or strategic stores, well, I'm pretty sure I know which one the logisticians in the Munitorium would prefer.

Oh! There's another advantage to multilasers in infantry squads! Commonality of parts! The regimental Engineers can use the same parts to repair the SAW and the "default" IFV main gun. Granted, the same can be said if the SAW and IFV main gun are both heavy bolters, but still.

Ogiwan wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:A Sentinel is not as small as you seem to think it is.

The legs are about the height of a human (model), and the Sentinel's cockpit is about the height of a human (model), and about the length of two humans (models) and the width of about 1 human (model).

Per Imperial Armour 3, Sentinels are 4.8 meters tall and 2.3 meters wide.

Granted, GWs ability to portray realistic models is only slightly worse than their ability to produce realistic fluff.

Exaggeration for visibility isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Still, though....I'm not seeing that much in the way of space in a Sentinel. I mean, the Multilaser capacitor is probably underneath the pilot's seat, where the ML plugs in, and that's not a particularly large space. If you're worried about it burning through batteries odiously quickly, well then....give each guy in the squad a battery. Its not like 20th century armies didn't do the same thing for their squad automatic weapons.

The Multilaser's capacitor runs off the Sentinel's main powerplant, from what I recall. Same thing with the Lascannon actually.

Hell, if that is an issue, then how else does a squad carry around all the necessary heavy bolter ammo to keep their SAW fed? After all, they have roughly the same rate of fire. I'm also more than willing to bet that the equivalent amount of HB shots is larger and heavier than the same amount of ML shots, for one unit of fire.

SAWs aren't generally fired in 2000 round bursts.
If you ever get a chance to see the Elysian Drop Sentinel with its Heavy Bolter, that relatively small ammunition box carries 2000 rounds. In most engagements, they will use a quarter of that at most.

Once you factor in recharging locally versus resupplying from operational or strategic stores, well, I'm pretty sure I know which one the logisticians in the Munitorium would prefer.

Except Multilasers can't have their batteries recharged. Like Hellguns and Lascannons they require specialist equipment to be recharged--which can't be brought into the field by and large, which is another factor in favor of the Heavy Bolter which has ammunition stamped out in ridiculous numbers. There are entire Hive Cities on Forge Worlds which are devoted to stamping out ammunition for Heavy Bolters and Autocannons.

Oh! There's another advantage to multilasers in infantry squads! Commonality of parts! The regimental Engineers can use the same parts to repair the SAW and the "default" IFV main gun. Granted, the same can be said if the SAW and IFV main gun are both heavy bolters, but still.

The heavy bolters fielded on Chimeras are not necessarily the same as those fielded by the infantry.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Multilaser's capacitor runs off the Sentinel's main powerplant, from what I recall. Same thing with the Lascannon actually.

Where is the proof? Isn't one of the prime points this debate is about is whether the multilaser is man-portable? Any claims supporting or arguing against such a position should have more evidence than just one person's fallible memory. Whether or not the weapon runs off a battery or the vehicle's power plant is a vital part of the issue.

Except Multilasers can't have their batteries recharged. Like Hellguns and Lascannons they require specialist equipment to be recharged--which can't be brought into the field by and large, which is another factor in favor of the Heavy Bolter which has ammunition stamped out in ridiculous numbers.

Again a very definitive statement on your part of multilaser capabilities and what they can or can't do or have done to them. Where is the proof of these claims from GW? Where does it say multilaser batteries cannot be recharged, or that lascannon batteries require specialist equipment to charge. Lasguns can charge from the sun or a fire. What is the evidence to say a lascannon battery cannot do the same? In the absence of actual GW evidence, nothing explicit can be said about the capabilities of a lascannon battery or that of a multilaser.

When arguing a point, simply waving one's hands and saying "They cannot do this. Their batteries cannot be recharged" is not sufficient. If you make claims you need to back them up with evidence, and "from what I remember/recall" is not evidence. Human memory is fallible and someone can just as adamantly claim they remember something completely different from you.

Ogiwan wrote:Once you factor in recharging locally versus resupplying from operational or strategic stores, well, I'm pretty sure I know which one the logisticians in the Munitorium would prefer.

Actually, I read that - unlike lasgun power packs - the ones from lascannons have to be replaced after being emptied. Something about the battery not being able to store as much power again once drained, or stuff burning out. No idea if that is from studio or licensed material, though, so take this with a bit of salt.

Kanluwen wrote:Per Imperial Armour 3, Sentinels are 4.8 meters tall and 2.3 meters wide.

Heh. GW seems to (again) think differently: http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/wiki/Datei:SentinelIA2.jpg
Unless that Guardsman is ~2.2 meters big, of course.

(though one could probably say the height of a walker changes drastically depending on how his legs are positioned?)

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Per Imperial Armour 3, Sentinels are 4.8 meters tall and 2.3 meters wide.

Heh. GW seems to (again) think differently: http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/wiki/Datei:SentinelIA2.jpg
Unless that Guardsman is ~2.2 meters big, of course.

(though one could probably say the height of a walker changes drastically depending on how his legs are positioned?)

Problem is that has no units of measurement and it's looking like it's from the 3rd edition.

And I will say that there's no way a Sentinel can fit into a Valkyrie without compacting its legs--so the height definitely changes based upon that.
Forge World, however, had their Drop Sentinel sketches in that same pose for the height/width they put out.

Lynata wrote:

Ogiwan wrote:Once you factor in recharging locally versus resupplying from operational or strategic stores, well, I'm pretty sure I know which one the logisticians in the Munitorium would prefer.

Actually, I read that - unlike lasgun power packs - the ones from lascannons have to be replaced after being emptied. Something about the battery not being able to store as much power again once drained, or stuff burning out. No idea if that is from studio or licensed material, though, so take this with a bit of salt.

The Dark Heresy RPG (if one accepts that as canon or somewhat canonical), says on p.132 that power packs for las weapons can be recharged from most power sources, with the time depending on the power source. No mention is made of specialist recharging equipment or unrechargeable batteries for any las weapon (and a man portable lascannon is listed among the more common lasguns). For all the power packs the option is given to recharge in a fire, at the risk of ruining the power pack.

Iracundus wrote:The Dark Heresy RPG (if one accepts that as canon or somewhat canonical), says on p.132 that power packs for las weapons can be recharged from most power sources, with the time depending on the power source. No mention is made of specialist recharging equipment or unrechargeable batteries for any las weapon (and a man portable lascannon is listed among the more common lasguns). For all the power packs the option is given to recharge in a fire, at the risk of ruining the power pack.

Yeah, DH also wants to tell me there's a difference between the quality of Sororitas and Astartes gear, that bolt weapons are "popular" for PDF, that the Deathwatch is no longer part of the Inquisition and that Vindicares are permanently assigned to some Inquisitor's retinue, so phht. I like the basics of their d100 ruleset and love the narrative quality of their writing, but some stuff in their books is just wrong (much like it happens with other licensed material such as various BL novels).

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lascannon

The "good for one shot" seems to come from the 3E rulebook... When I get home later I can take a look and confirm - if it's still of any relevance to the discussion.
In general, I found that the older books in particular often feature lots of awesome details about equipment often omitted in newer stuff. Always worth a look. Maybe it says something about multilasers, too.

Lynata, I wasn't aware of the Sentinal measurements in IA 3, which is why I went with my memory. 'Course, now I wonder about 14-15 foot tall Sentinels. But, again, GW figs aren't always the best scale. I mean, how can you fit 10 Astartes into a Rhino without turning it into a clown car?

Still, though, if we accept all writings in GW game products (not novels!) as canonical, then perhaps Lascannons are single-shot per power cell.

It just still would make more sense to me if Lascannons and Multilasers used the actual same (rechargeable!) batteries. Standardization of ammunition is a wonderful thing.

Anyways. Kal, where do you remember the "specialized equipment" bit? I'm wondering what kind of special equipment that is, and if it is capable of being used at the regimental or divisional level to recharge heavy las packs.

Ogiwan wrote:Lynata, I wasn't aware of the Sentinal measurements in IA 3, which is why I went with my memory. 'Course, now I wonder about 14-15 foot tall Sentinels. But, again, GW figs aren't always the best scale. I mean, how can you fit 10 Astartes into a Rhino without turning it into a clown car?

Pretty easily, if you go by the actual measurements of a Rhino rather than just eyeballing it on the vehicles.

They used an abstract scale so that vehicles aren't huge compared to infantry, by all accounts.

Still, though, if we accept all writings in GW game products (not novels!) as canonical, then perhaps Lascannons are single-shot per power cell.
It just still would make more sense to me if Lascannons and Multilasers used the actual same (rechargeable!) batteries. Standardization of ammunition is a wonderful thing.

Feasibly, they might be able to use the same batteries--just not well. You can put a "hot-shot" power cell into a normal Lasgun, but that doesn't make it a Hellgun.

Anyways. Kan, where do you remember the "specialized equipment" bit? I'm wondering what kind of special equipment that is, and if it is capable of being used at the regimental or divisional level to recharge heavy las packs.

From what I remember, it's briefly mentioned in one of the Guard propaganda bits. I do know that they talk about Lascannons not being rechargable in the field in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer though.

Lynata wrote:The "good for one shot" seems to come from the 3E rulebook... When I get home later I can take a look and confirm - if it's still of any relevance to the discussion.
In general, I found that the older books in particular often feature lots of awesome details about equipment often omitted in newer stuff. Always worth a look. Maybe it says something about multilasers, too.

The relevant bit in the 3rd ed. rulebook says:

In contrast, to maintain maximum power output efficiency lascannon powerpacks need replacing after every shot. p. 61, 3rd ed. 40K rulebook

Strictly speaking that just says it is 1 shot at maximum power output per powerpack, and not literally exactly just 1 shot per pack. If there is a toggle for lascannon power output or the thing can still discharge a shot at less than maximum power, it is possible that in emergencies a firer could squeeze off a few lesser shots against targets that dón't require the full power setting.

Kanluwen wrote:
From what I remember, it's briefly mentioned in one of the Guard propaganda bits. I do know that they talk about Lascannons not being rechargable in the field in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer though.

Again "I remember" is not evidence.

What page of the Uplifting Primer are you referring to specifically? I cannot find any specific reference ot lascannon recharging in the Primer. The Primer is written for the average lasgun armed trooper, making only indirect references to lascannons when describing heavy weapon squads on p. 34-35. The only specific parts about recharging that I can find are on p. 20, and only refer to the lasgun, not the lascannon.

In short, the Primer does not appear to state what you claim it states. Provide a citation and quote to back up your claim if it is actually in there.

Kanluwen wrote:Pretty easily, if you go by the actual measurements of a Rhino rather than just eyeballing it on the vehicles.

And the actual measurements of a Space Marine.

Ogiwan wrote:It just still would make more sense to me if Lascannons and Multilasers used the actual same (rechargeable!) batteries. Standardization of ammunition is a wonderful thing.

Maybe they do (in fact I'd consider that likely due to the standardization you mentioned) ... it's just that a lascannon would empty it faster that a multilaser?

The lascannon sort of sounds like "space artillery" in that it delivers a single big boom and then has to be reloaded (read: connected to a different chargepack). A multilaser might get, say, half a dozen shots of lesser strength out of the same chargepack before requiring replacement - but for a suppression weapon (which I reckon it is, given the high RoF it gained while sacrificing a lascannon's power), that's a really sucky quota. Get a heavy bolter instead. Which is what they do, only employing the multilaser where it has access to a sufficiently large battery or (preferably) a generator to ensure an uninterrupted feed for continuous fire.

At least that'd be my current conclusion of this debate.

Iracundus wrote:If there is a toggle for lascannon power output or the thing can still discharge a shot at less than maximum power, it is possible that in emergencies a firer could squeeze off a few lesser shots against targets that dón't require the full power setting.

Right, and then you get an improvised semi-auto multilaser good for 3-6 shots. Not that helpful, imo.

I also doubt a lascannon would have such a slider. It makes sense for lasguns, but lascannons are intended for anti-armour use only. I could see "field modifications" being performed to achieve the effect you mentioned, similar to how they turned AA-guns into artillery in WW2, but the end result isn't exactly efficient. I can see it be done. Similar to how I could see a team of Guardsmen hooking up a lascannon battery to a damaged Chimaera to power its multilaser - or take it down to build an improvised field gun. But all of that would be non-standard and there are weapons which perform better at the intended role (-> heavy bolter).

Interesting read!

Lynata wrote:

Iracundus wrote:If there is a toggle for lascannon power output or the thing can still discharge a shot at less than maximum power, it is possible that in emergencies a firer could squeeze off a few lesser shots against targets that dón't require the full power setting.

Right, and then you get an improvised semi-auto multilaser good for 3-6 shots. Not that helpful, imo.

I also doubt a lascannon would have such a slider. It makes sense for lasguns, but lascannons are intended for anti-armour use only. I could see "field modifications" being performed to achieve the effect you mentioned, similar to how they turned AA-guns into artillery in WW2, but the end result isn't exactly efficient. I can see it be done. Similar to how I could see a team of Guardsmen hooking up a lascannon battery to a damaged Chimaera to power its multilaser - or take it down to build an improvised field gun. But all of that would be non-standard and there are weapons which perform better at the intended role (-> heavy bolter).

There wouldn't be a need to mention 1 shot per pack for "maximum power output efficiency" if there were not an alternative: i.e. a less efficient method that was still at least somewhat common enough to be worth making reference to.

What I was suggesting was that if push came to shove, a less than full charge powerpack might still be used and a shot fired at lesser power, not necessarily that lascannons be multilasers stand ins. Instead of a 100% pack giving a 100% strength shot, perhaps a 70% power pack might still be able to be used and a 50% strength (the implied inefficiency) shot fired if that enemy is bearing down on your position and the power pack has not finished recharging.

In the 40K game, we don't see a lot of things due to the coarse granularity of a d6 system and a characteristic system that only goes up to 10.

Iracundus wrote:There wouldn't be a need to mention 1 shot per pack for "maximum power output efficiency" if there were not an alternative: i.e. a less efficient method that was still at least somewhat common enough to be worth making reference to.

Actually I took that more in the way of "this power pack needs to be replaced, not recharged, to maintain maximum efficiency". As with every battery, a power pack's maximum charge level diminishes every time you reload it, so for lascannons, the IG generally seems to prefer to take a fresh pack for every shot and simply throws the old ones away. To do otherwise would make the lascannon a lesser weapon, and when used against armour (the weapon's primary purpose) that can be a deadly mistake. In tank battles (and this includes hidden field guns in ambush scenarios), who hits first, wins. So you better make that shot count.

It may be necessary to recharge these power packs on longer campaigns, though, depending on supply situation / logistics. But I could see why every commander would want to avoid this situation as best as he could. To do otherwise would mean to risk valuable equipment and the success of the mission, if not the campaign.

Anyways, I would not interpret it in a way that the cannon itself is able to "adjust" its consumption, though I'd think that such situations may be improvised. For example, if you have a power pack not fully charged connected to the lascannon, it may give you a warning sign, but when you pull that trigger it would likely still empty the pack, drawing whatever energy is left to deliver a weaker shot.

Still, I believe we were discussing why man-portable multilasers are not standard, and the above doesn't change that. Let us assume just for fun: even if you could jury-rig a lascannon into deliberately not emptying the entire chargepack on its first shot (you heretek!) ... a semi-auto multilaser you'd need to reload after 3-6 shots is about as useful as a heavy bolter with 5 shells left in the belt.

First, I certainly am all about the swapping out powerpacks on a Lascannon after every shot. Its essentially an AT gun; BLAM, open chamber, old pack shoots out, new pack thrown in, close chamber, BLAM.

Still, though, why would a ML necessarily get 3-6 shots per pack out of it? Why couldn't it get more? I mean, if a Lascannon is a few orders of magnitude stronger in terms of power-on-target, and power-through-target, why can't a Multilaser have a few orders of magnitude more shots?

Additionally, even if reloadings degrade packs, why can't they be used over and over again? I mean, if a single Lascannon shot takes 70% of the battery charge, and each reloading takes 1% off of the entire battery (a gross overstatement, IMO), well then there are plenty of reloadings. First shot will bring the charge to 30%, it gets swapped out, recharged, and now its at 99%, and the next lascannon shot from that pack takes the charge down to 29%. That gives us easily 25 shots per pack, which is still quite a lot more efficient than bringing 25 more reloads out of a Forge-world's atmo, through the warp, down a planet's grav-well, unloading it from a transport, transporting it to a front-line unit's ammo dump, and then distributing it to a front-line unit that needs reloads.

Conflicting interpretations, I guess. Personally, I don't think a lascannon would only drain ~70% of a chargepack - it'd take everything it can and channel it into a single discharge.

Your arguments also made me do some more real-life research, though, and there's another argument that may come into play here. Lascannon power packs may not be rechargable at all.

Aside from the obvious price, there's some more differences between pre-loaded and rechargable batteries that could play a role in warfare on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. For example, all batteries experience a "self-discharge" over time, which is much stronger in rechargable batteries than single-use ones. A contemporary standard NiMH battery loses up to 40% of its power in a single month and may be completely drained in two. Unless we assume that the sci-fi tech of 40k has entirely eliminated this problem, this could be a problem for the Imperial Guard. Whereas a lasgun chargepack only loses a couple shots of capacity in a few days or weeks, for a lascannon this loss may drastically weaken the one shot it can take at an enemy tank. And I do not think it feasible that the IG recalls every single lascannon "shot" for daily recharge, for that would require even more of a logistic effort and entire blocks of generators to feed an army. Furthermore, single-use batteries also seem to have a higher storage capacity than their rechargable counterparts, which makes the former an even more likely candidate if you want to put as much power into a lascannon shot as possible.

Just a weird theory, though. It is entirely possible that self-discharge is a non-issue in 40k. I certainly do not think the designers actually thought about it ...

I actually never considered the possibility of non-rechargable power packs until today, so in a way I'm still shaping my opinion and this discussion helps me a lot. In the end, I just like coming up with suggestions and ideas on why something that is in the rules and thus does constitute fact might make sense. Am I entirely convinced by lascannon power packs being single-use? No. But under the current conditions and with the info I've seen, it would be an option.

Ogiwan wrote:Still, though, why would a ML necessarily get 3-6 shots per pack out of it? Why couldn't it get more? I mean, if a Lascannon is a few orders of magnitude stronger in terms of power-on-target, and power-through-target, why can't a Multilaser have a few orders of magnitude more shots?

Yeah, I admit that number was chosen pretty arbitrarily. I just think there's a reason for why the Guard uses heavy bolters. I'm pretty much playing "devil's advocate" here and will cling to anything that makes the facts written in the studio material (which is that man-portable multilasers do not exist) appear reasonable.

I mean, by your theory we could just as well have a lascannon replace multilasers, heavy bolters, autocannons and battle cannons - just move the slider on the power level. But that isn't how it works by the rules, so I try to find explanations.

I'm going to throw just one fact in here regarding laser weapons:

Not all types of lasers are able to be "fuelled" by electrical energy alone.

While this holds true for a certain range of lasers, many of today's industrial cutting lasers, for example, require the laser gasses to be replaced continuously, because the reactive components producing the photons degrade over time.

It is very well possible that your average lasgun can be recharged by simple electrical energy, but that a larger Mulitlaser with higher damage output and fire rate uses a completely different type of laser. This might result in completely different maintenance and recharging necessities. The Multilaser might require a change of its lasant gas after a while, something that might be able to be safely stored in a Chimera, but could not be man-portable because of dimensons, weight or danger of exploding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser <-- I suggest this as a basic source on a metric feth-ton of reasons why lasguns, multilasers and lascannons might SOUND similar, but could be operated in very many, very differing ways, giving possible reasons why they are used the way they are.

Lynata wrote:

nomotog wrote: After all, they do not receive reinforcements from home. Once you're in the Guard, all ties to your original planet and its PDF are cut.

The exception obviously being the Gateway World of Cadia, where the Guard basically is the PDF, and regiments may cycle between duty at home or elsewhere in the Imperium.

Other exceptions include certain Valhallan regiments as well as the Vostroyan First Born regiments.

Witzkatz wrote:I'm going to throw just one fact in here regarding laser weapons:

Not all types of lasers are able to be "fuelled" by electrical energy alone.

While this holds true for a certain range of lasers, many of today's industrial cutting lasers, for example, require the laser gasses to be replaced continuously, because the reactive components producing the photons degrade over time.

It is very well possible that your average lasgun can be recharged by simple electrical energy, but that a larger Mulitlaser with higher damage output and fire rate uses a completely different type of laser. This might result in completely different maintenance and recharging necessities. The Multilaser might require a change of its lasant gas after a while, something that might be able to be safely stored in a Chimera, but could not be man-portable because of dimensons, weight or danger of exploding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser <-- I suggest this as a basic source on a metric feth-ton of reasons why lasguns, multilasers and lascannons might SOUND similar, but could be operated in very many, very differing ways, giving possible reasons why they are used the way they are.

I agree with the Pink Lion.

anyone know what regiment of imperial guard were on the cover the 3rd edition imperial guard codex? also where can i find a list of all the regiments involved in the wars for Armageddon?

Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:anyone know what regiment of imperial guard were on the cover the 3rd edition imperial guard codex?

Cadians. They've been the posterboys for IG ever since - although it is perhaps interesting to note that Vostroyans have been promoted lately, too. These two, together with the Catachans, are at the moment still the only type of IG regiment widely available from GW themselves. There's also the guys from Krieg, but these you can only get for top dollar from Forgeworld.

Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:also where can i find a list of all the regiments involved in the wars for Armageddon?

I can only give you something about the 3rd one:
Force Composition Chart - Imperial Forces active during the 3rd War for Armageddon (source: Codex Armageddon)