So just played in a local GT. Fifty people, 5 games over two days, good times. However an incident came up that caused some questions to arise.

A younger player was caught blatantly cheating. He is actually a known cheater in the store, however the last incident was over a year ago. At that time he was playing me in a different tournament and he was trying to claim higher BS for his IG, different stats for his tanks, different tanks in his list, and finally when I beat him, tried to add an objective to the table. At that event the TO talked to his father, who actually called his son out on the cheating midgame with me, and it looked like there was a small ban on tournament play for the kid.

So today he got caught again, doctoring his list midgame andwith changing rules/stats/wargear. He got immediately placed in last place for the final game and once again his father was talked to by the TO. Here is the main issue with me, he was 2-1playing coming into today and if he was true to form he pretty much screwed the brackets yesterday and was improperly placed today based on those screwed brackets.

How much could this have screwed the brackets? I am not looking at a revison but looking at writing the TO and store owner an email to express that this kid needs a full ban from tournament play at this store. Considering not only my past with him, but also what is now obviously a habitual habit, I don't even want this guy in any tournament I play. The kid is 13yrs old btw which I think should be old enough to know better then to pull this crap anymore.

Did you have fun? If so, leave it alone. Sounds like the TO is well-aware of the problem, and probably doesn't need any more attention brought to it.

If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

So as long as you are out of the money, it is ok to cheat? I just want to get your point clear.

Janthkin wrote:Did you have fun? If so, leave it alone. Sounds like the TO is well-aware of the problem, and probably doesn't need any more attention brought to it.

If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

To win a GT level event you need to be near perfect every round. The fields are so big and like all GT level events they are only going to pay out the Overall, best general, and painting, Since winning games has no impact on the painting winner, only the top two spots are going to win prizes and they are going to the person who went undefeated, and the other player who went 4-1 with the most victory points (nearly all of your games have to be massacres).

So going to a GT level event you do not go for the prizes, but to play against armies that you normally don't get to play, meet new people, and have 5 fun games.

I know what you mean about cheating though, but I just chalk it up to him being a kid. I have had him misremember some unit stats before and I will either correct him or not care enough to, but I am more laid back in my approach to the game than most players.

Blackmoor wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Did you have fun? If so, leave it alone. Sounds like the TO is well-aware of the problem, and probably doesn't need any more attention brought to it.

If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

To win a GT level event you need to be near perfect every round. The fields are so big and like all GT level events they are only going to pay out the Overall, best general, and painting, Since winning games has no impact on the painting winner, only the top two spots are going to win prizes and they are going to the person who went undefeated, and the other player who went 4-1 with the most victory points (nearly all of your games have to be massacres).

So going to a GT level event you do not go for the prizes, but to play against armies that you normally don't get to play, meet new people, and have 5 fun games.

I know what you mean about cheating though, but I just chalk it up to him being a kid. I have had him misremember some unit stats before and I will either correct him or not care enough to, but I am more laid back in my approach to the game than most players.

I can't chalk it up to him being a kid because it is beyond just not remembering units or being new to the game. At the last tournament that I got matched with it was way more then misremembering units. When dice down got called he tried to place an additional objective marker on the table to get a draw. He didn't notice the spectator standing right behind him that witnessed it and said out loud to everyone around including me,

"He just put that there!"

To which his response was then to accuse me of stalling for time and of cheating. So I have zero sympathy for this kid with whatever happens to him.

So Blackmoor, we going to see you fielding a Dark Eldar army next tourney? Hahahahaha! Grats!

Brother Ramses wrote:So as long as you are out of the money, it is ok to cheat? I just want to get your point clear.

I'm going to assume you're not trying to troll me....

You asked "How much could this have screwed the brackets?" The answer:

Janthkin wrote:If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

So, it wasn't going to "screw the brackets" in a meaningful way.

As far as your prospective course of action, I don't think you need to do anything else. Sounds like the TO is aware of the problem, and your further input, unless carefully phrased, is only likely to discourage them from the effort involved in organizing a large-scale event. Given your phrasing in the original post, and your subsequent response to Blackmoor, I don't think you are disinterested enough to phrase any comment about this situation in a manner that the TO won't take as unnecessarily "piling on."

Brother Ramses wrote:
I can't chalk it up to him being a kid because it is beyond just not remembering units or being new to the game. At the last tournament that I got matched with it was way more then misremembering units. When dice down got called he tried to place an additional objective marker on the table to get a draw. He didn't notice the spectator standing right behind him that witnessed it and said out loud to everyone around including me,

"He just put that there!"

To which his response was then to accuse me of stalling for time and of cheating. So I have zero sympathy for this kid with whatever happens to him.

I have never had that level of problem with him before, but that level of chicanery (If true) would be concern. Note: I said if true because I have no first hand knowledge of it so I have to take your word for it.

So Blackmoor, we going to see you fielding a Dark Eldar army next tourney? Hahahahaha! Grats!

Thanks!

I had a lot of fun and met a lot of new players. I wish the area stores would post their RTTs more and I would come out to them, spend money, and even take a nice list and not play to hard

Well, for my next army I was going to do an all metal Tzeentch demon army. I normally do not like to take armies that everyone else is playing and a lot of people are jumping on the Grey Knight band wagon, so after the 'Ard Boyz mine are going into semi-retirement.

I have a DE army that I played at the Sprue Posse GT in LA back in January that I never got back to. In the last couple of months I have won at the Bay Area Open a Razorwing, and at the "Ard Boys I got a box of Scourges. That win at the GT was certainly a nice haul of DE so now I am rolling in them. I think I will give them a try since I wanted to play them anyways. The funny thing is that I wanted to go in a different way than everyone else and try a mostly non-mech army and now I am rolling in ravagers and raiders, but no Scourges or Talos.

Maybe I can exchange them.

Oh, and the young lad that you are talking about came up to me on my last games telling me how he could easily beat my army with his.

Janthkin wrote:As far as your prospective course of action, I don't think you need to do anything else. Sounds like the TO is aware of the problem, and your further input, unless carefully phrased, is only likely to discourage them from the effort involved in organizing a large-scale event.

Being aware of the problem isn't good enough, you need to actually do something about it. I say the best thing to do is to put a little more pressure on the TO to ban him from future events, because if he keeps coming back and being disruptive it's going to cause more problems for everyone involved, and maybe even have people thinking twice about attending the next one.

I don't see how encouraging the TO to ban a problem player is any more likely to discourage him from running events than having the same problem player come back and cause trouble every single time.

How old is this younger player? If he is say, 11 or 12, a different approach should be taken than if he is 15 or 16.

OP says he's 13.

Sidstyler wrote:OP says he's 13.

bah, missed it.

Janthkin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So as long as you are out of the money, it is ok to cheat? I just want to get your point clear.

I'm going to assume you're not trying to troll me....

You asked "How much could this have screwed the brackets?" The answer:

Janthkin wrote:If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

So, it wasn't going to "screw the brackets" in a meaningful way.

As far as your prospective course of action, I don't think you need to do anything else. Sounds like the TO is aware of the problem, and your further input, unless carefully phrased, is only likely to discourage them from the effort involved in organizing a large-scale event. Given your phrasing in the original post, and your subsequent response to Blackmoor, I don't think you are disinterested enough to phrase any comment about this situation in a manner that the TO won't take as unnecessarily "piling on."

I have to say I agree with Janthkin. If you aren't exceptionally careful with your wording, either in person or by e-mail, you could actually discourage the TO from having more events and change their attitude towards you. It could, and I mean could not will, be construed by them as you simply complaining because you feel his being 2-1 got you a worse bracket position and changed the outcome of your tournament. Even if you are mostly concerned with the cheating it could look to the TO as if you are whining because you didn't do as well as you'd have liked and want to blame someone who cheated.

I would just ask the TO's to watch him and maybe talk to him and his dad about how cheating is lame. The threat of banning will probably inspire him to play a fairer game than just getting banned.

Question: Did the event allow 'secrecy'? Or did you guys exchange full lists before game?

How did he change wargear midgame when he gave you a list pre-game and fully disclosed everything in his list and on the table?

I am unsure how this cheat could happen in tourney events with static lists.

To the OP:
I sounds as if the TO dealt with things the day of the event. If you feel you need to get some things off your chest, or just offer constructive feedback, it does not hurt to write a letter or email to a TO. Minor suggestions, write it today, re-read it next monday. My reasoning in waiting a week is a lot can change in a week. You may remember additional facts, or simply be able to read your letter and re-craft it in a more constructive way.

Cheatings going to happen whether it is from a 13 year old, or a 31 year old. The important thing is how to handle it in the moment, and what to do after. Exchanging lists is a nice option. That way there is a pre-printed list, which decreases the likelihood of concerns. The TO having a copy of preprinted lists from RD1, helps a lot. Most armies are pretty standard, if something does sound right, asking to see the army book helps. Realistically, banning the 13 year old will likely mean nothing to him as they are a kid. Having the TO or store owner talk to the father is the best route. Having them say something like "hey this is the 2nd time, can we talk about this, we may have to ask him to sit out for a while if he cannot play the game as he should."

Blackmoor wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Did you have fun? If so, leave it alone. Sounds like the TO is well-aware of the problem, and probably doesn't need any more attention brought to it.

If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

To win a GT level event you need to be near perfect every round. The fields are so big and like all GT level events they are only going to pay out the Overall, best general, and painting, Since winning games has no impact on the painting winner, only the top two spots are going to win prizes and they are going to the person who went undefeated, and the other player who went 4-1 with the most victory points (nearly all of your games have to be massacres).

So going to a GT level event you do not go for the prizes, but to play against armies that you normally don't get to play, meet new people, and have 5 fun games.

I know what you mean about cheating though, but I just chalk it up to him being a kid. I have had him misremember some unit stats before and I will either correct him or not care enough to, but I am more laid back in my approach to the game than most players.

So what if the guy that went 4-1 only loss was to the kid that cheated? If he should of won that game, then the kid cheating did mess up the brackets. And possibly keep a guy from winning.

Janthkin wrote:Did you have fun? If so, leave it alone. Sounds like the TO is well-aware of the problem, and probably doesn't need any more attention brought to it.

From the sound of the OP sounds pretty spot on. TO keeps speaking to the father, the father isnt making excuses for the kid from what seems to be said.

Kid should be banned from the next event. Then he may participate in the following event. If caught cheating again permanent ban until he is more mature. Regardless of age cheating should not be acceptable.

Those of us that have had to deal with this kid before were thinking that a flat ban on tournament play at the store for a time period would be fair with any further cheating resulting in a permanent ban from the store.

His dad was playing in the same tournament and I was sitting there when the TO spoke to his father about the cheating. We know that at lunch, he laid into his kid. Nothing new there as that happened at the last tournament that the kid was caught cheating. That makes some people think how much more the store will leave the consequences for cheating in the father's hands versus taking matters into their own hands as the kid has now increased his reputation for cheating.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess the real question goes to as how far as a player should cheating in a tournament be addressed.

Of course if you are the direct subject of someone across from you cheating, you call it out right then and there and bring the TO over to address it. But as a player in a tournament, do you just accept it because it didn't happen to you or do you view it as sullying the entire tournament experience and you need to let the TO know that despite otherwise a completely awesome tournament, that crap can't go without consequences.

I have heard of TO's paying extra attention to known cheats. Extra attention being judges hovering near the table the player is on and submitting a list to the judge after every game (that is why no hand written lists anymore) are some of things I have seen and heard done.

I think the kid deserves a ban. And I will not go into the rant of what the heck is this kids Dad doing not wearing his butt out of this crap. Does it screw the bracketts? Some but not enough to I think to matter. I would think you would need a collective group to go to the store organizer and discuss it. If not a ban then what can you do to fix the problem.

The issue is, the only thing that draws the line between most cheating and mistakes is intent. The result is the same if you misplay a rule by accident or on purpose.

Every tourney has mistakes. 40k is impossible to play without mistakes. Every player has every right to stop the game and deal with mistakes or cheating... but once you have passed by the event and proceeded forward, nothing can be done. If the challenge flag was not thrown against a rule played wrong... there isn't anything you can do about it.

You don't have any right to go back and have the status of his other games before you changed. You wern't there, you didn't know what happened, his opponents didn't fix the behavhior. Are the results valid? Hell yes they are. You can't monday-morning quarterback 40k as no tourney will ever have official results ever because someone somewhere always could have played a rule wrong which 'invalidates' the entire tourney (to the sore loser who didn't win).

Rules played wrong due to mistakes or cheating happen. If two players agree to play something wrong out of ignorance or other motivation, it becomes part of the ruleset for that game if no one does anything about it.

That's pretty much how I go about rulings at my events also. I am the judge and I will fix things that I am AWARE of, however, it is up to every player to monitor their own games

If someone is cheating or making mistakes you need to call me over. If the game ends and you didn't even try to get my attention then that's tough luck. You gotta throw the challenge flag before the next play starts!

Due to my time being limited you gotta let players play rules wrong, if they both dont know any better then I cant police every facet of every game. Again, it's up to players to pass it along

Bikeninja wrote:I have heard of TO's paying extra attention to known cheats. Extra attention being judges hovering near the table the player is on and submitting a list to the judge after every game (that is why no hand written lists anymore) are some of things I have seen and heard done.

We had to have 5 copies of our list that we exchanged with our opponent.

Does it screw the bracketts? Some but not enough to I think to matter.

I am almost certain that he had no impact on who won the tournament. I was the lone 5-0 and the players that finished in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, and went 4-1 (Michael, John and Dave) the common denominator was I was their only loss.

nkelsch wrote:Question: Did the event allow 'secrecy'? Or did you guys exchange full lists before game?

How did he change wargear midgame when he gave you a list pre-game and fully disclosed everything in his list and on the table?

I am unsure how this cheat could happen in tourney events with static lists.

Generally I scan my opponent's list when I see it pre-game, memorise anything particularly important and then go from there with the expectation that neither of us is enough of a dick to try cheating. If something comes up then I'll ask to see the list again but I'm sure there's plenty of occasions where a subtle upgrade here or there could have slipped through - a sergeant conveniently having meltabombs, searchlights on GK vehicles, any codex like Eldar or Tau where my ability to visually identify upgrades is limited or where a lot of upgrades (like holofields) go unmodelled - without me catching it. If you know there's a guy playing who you're unable to trust to deal fairly with his opponent then banning him is a better option than expecting all five of his opponents to memorise his list each time and then check up every time he tries to pull a fast one.

The excuse he gave to his dad and TO when confronted about his midgame list doctoring was,

"Well I put it in there with Army Builder, I don't know why it didn't list them!"

To which his dad completely shut him down on because he had worked on the list using Army Builder with him or some crap like that.

And as Corrode pointed out above, almost all people scan a list pre-game to check any notable units and then game on. I have absolutely never seen someone holding an opponents list during gameplay to ensure every movement, shooting, and assault matches what is on the list. In this case, the kid's opponent did a doublecheck and noticed that the Russes had not paid for heavy bolter sponsons and that there were no heavy weapon teams with lascannons among other discrepencies.

Look this isn't about being careless with rules. I point out the adding an objective to the table as one example that he tried with me. That same game he tried swapping out one of his heavy support big guns for another at which time his dad yelled from another table in the same tournament,

"It is not a that! I told you last game it wasn't and it isn't now!"

He is actively trying to cheat which then even calls into those things that could be construed as rule or stat line mistakes. Suddenly him thinking that his normal IG have BS 4 is not an oops, but him trying to pull a fast one on people that do not know the IG codex.

"2-1 is out of the money."
True, but you also have the potential for 2 other people sitting at 2-1 (and out of the money) when they should be at 3-0 and in the money.

Yeah, the dad was talked to and apparently jacked up his boy...but if the kid insists on cheating AND dad insists on continuing to bring the kid to events, perhaps a ban on both would be in order.
Afterall, if your juvenile delinquent kid is caught tagging (painting graffiti) the parents are sent the bill for the cleanup.

honestly... i don't think anyone that failed to notice cheating would have been the top finisher

Non issue

TO handled it appropriately

I would rather keep expanding the hobby to new kids and deal with this kind of thing then to be militant about it and ban someone for life.

As a parent who plays with his kids, I have one that doesn't cheat, he is just a rotten sport about it. I know way more folks like that. Some of them grown ass men.

Its just something that we have to deal with in the tournament scene.

Given the age I would of issued a 1 year ban.

As for brackets, I would have issued maximum points to the opponent and sent the little bugger home for the day.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:"2-1 is out of the money."
True, but you also have the potential for 2 other people sitting at 2-1 (and out of the money) when they should be at 3-0 and in the money.

Yeah, the dad was talked to and apparently jacked up his boy...but if the kid insists on cheating AND dad insists on continuing to bring the kid to events, perhaps a ban on both would be in order.
Afterall, if your juvenile delinquent kid is caught tagging (painting graffiti) the parents are sent the bill for the cleanup.

Wow, maybe you should start paying reparations too...

Given the history, I think a ban is more then appropriate.

Here is one of the main issues that come up with dealing with cheating;

I am there to game and hopefully win as many as I can. I am not there to babysit a list and/or a player that cannot play by the rules. Being aware is part of the game, but having to micromanage a player is not my idea of fun.

I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

boyd wrote:I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

Those are rather Draconian measures. How is someone supposed to learn in an environment like that? Should the cheating be tolerated? Absolutely not, but in order to deal with the cheater we, as a community, should not debase ourselves by resorting to bullying; either in person or on the internet.

boyd wrote:I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

This is a great solution if you're a passive-aggressive manbaby who can't deal with any kind of confrontation. Alternately if you're a grown adult you can talk to the kid and explain that you have no interest in playing him until he stops cheating.

Maybe manbaby wasn't the best use of term against another poser...

(I will however steal this one for use against my teenager)

Frazzled wrote:Maybe manbaby wasn't the best use of term against another poser...

(I will however steal this one for use against my teenager)

I dunno. If someone was scared to talk to a kid about cheating, 'manbaby' could be a fitting title

Wow. The kid is 13 years old. Someone should spend some quality time with the kid and enforce the importance and value of playing the game with integrity over the value of “winning”. Sounds like a good opportunity to have a positive impact on a kid and do some hobby mentoring ..

Everyone seems to be chiming in, so why not. I would ban him from the next tournament, then allow him to come to the next one if he can play a fair game with someone credible at your store to assure he learned, if he did not, do not allow him to enter tournaments till he matures or some other divine intervention.

muwhe wrote:Wow. The kid is 13 years old. Someone should spend some quality time with the kid and enforce the importance and value of playing the game with integrity over the value of “winning”. Sounds like a good opportunity to have a positive impact on a kid and do some hobby mentoring ..

And thats "One to grow on"

Slightly off-topic, but I was playing against a WoC army in the school league, and I shot 26 shots at his lone chaos sorcerer, caused seven wounds, he told me that his sorcerer had no armour, I didn't realise till after the event, that a chaos sorcerer has chaos armour as standard. OOOPS! I turned it into a pincushion, a magical one at that

Say the kid can play if the father is supervising his play and correcting rules issues and keeps him on track. All kids lie. it is a natural response. The father needs to keep him on the rules and show him how to win or lose and not cheat or lie.

Brother Ramses wrote:So as long as you are out of the money, it is ok to cheat? I just want to get your point clear.

No dude, he's not saying it is okay to cheat, he is just telling you not to worry about it as that kid was already losing, and that the TO already new what he was doing.

Really!.... I think the point was “Blatant cheating". Putting the misinterpretation or lack of knowledge of the rules aside; this seems to be a Behavior not an isolated incident. From what I gleamed the opportunity to address this kids behavior has happened on many prior occasions and yet has not resulted in a “correction”.
IF this “child” cannot redress his behavior, either thru his own actions or his parents then he should be banned. This is teaching that cheating, lying and poor sportsmanship are not punishable (being of any serious consequences – talking to by parents isn’t doing anything) and acceptable (rewarded) if you pull it off. Actions should have consequences!
To alleviate the “you offered no suggestion” crowd. I’d ban the kid from playing by himself. He could play along with his father in order to give his father the opportunity and responsibility to teach his son some apparent needed personal skills. After a period of time he can be let back in on a trial basis with the condition that any serious infraction results in a further ban. good call Nkelsch.
As well to those who say .. he wasn’t in the position to affect the outcome.. I say ..this time. We participate, work hard, study, practice and with some luck and skill become victorious. It’d be a different matter if you were the one he maligned. I don’t care if you beat me, just do it honorably.
This is a game; no one is suggesting that this kid can’t reform. It just that it’s not the other player’s responsibility to do so, nor is having everyone else’s experience ruined by poor and unacceptable behavior. Hopefully word will spread and he will start to feel the “pressure” to be a better player or find some other way to spend his time.
Obviously, it's the TO’s call .. My 2cents

Personally using a Derogatory (manbaby) name to judge another users intention is childish, weak and adds nothing to the discussion. If you want to elevate your arguement, try reinforcing your position, not with name calling.

I think a ban is fair punishment given the situation. If you don't want to ban the kid, then allow him to play under supervision of his Dad since he plays and, presumably, knows the rules. If the kid can play honestly for a few tourneys, then he can play unsupervised like anyone else.

Janthkin wrote:If he was 2-1, and it was a win/loss format, he was already out of the money.

What about the two guys he beat that he quite possibly should not have beaten?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote: In this case, the kid's opponent did a doublecheck and noticed that the Russes had not paid for heavy bolter sponsons and that there were no heavy weapon teams with lascannons among other discrepencies.

That same game he tried swapping out one of his heavy support big guns for another

What are your WYSIWYG standards like? It sounds like they're fairly lax. WYSIWYG stops this pretty well.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

boyd wrote:I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

Those are rather Draconian measures. How is someone supposed to learn in an environment like that? Should the cheating be tolerated? Absolutely not, but in order to deal with the cheater we, as a community, should not debase ourselves by resorting to bullying; either in person or on the internet.

Why not? Who knows, with the right carrot in front of him, he may end up changing is his lying and cheating ways. Shunning has always worked for the Amish.

I guess you are unaware of the finer points of satire. For that I am truly sorry.

Corrode wrote:

boyd wrote:I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

This is a great solution if you're a passive-aggressive manbaby who can't deal with any kind of confrontation. Alternately if you're a grown adult you can talk to the kid and explain that you have no interest in playing him until he stops cheating.

I'm still an adult and I play with my little toy soldiers. If this makes me a man-baby, then so be it. If you know me, I don't stay away from confrontation - that said, I only fight battles I will win. There is no use in kicking a dead horse.

If I may, I would suggest that you read some satire. I do have a proposition that could end world hunger and cut down on the homeless population as well. I mean if you're into that sort of thing...

Again, I think I have made my point but apparently not. This whole post was set out to point fingers at some pre-teen child and bully them because of their misdeed. I noticed how they didn't go to him directly and they went to his father instead of taking up their issues with him directly and telling him these are going to be the consequences of your actions and why. Now they come on to a public forum and continue to bash and bully the kid with the sense of OMG this messed up the entire tournament and ruined my day. What should have happened in this case was the OP shouldn't air his dirty laundry and just let it be. If the event was fun, support it next year. If it wasn't because cheating was rampant, come up with a few ideas on how to solve the issue at hand. If they hold the event next year, go back and see what changes have been made and decide then if you want to go. Next, the shop/TO should tell the kid to knock it off and make him type out his list and proof it before the next event he's in. Then, photo copy or have him bring a copy to provide to each opponent. This should be a standard practice though FOR EVERY PLAYER IN THE TOURNAMENT though as it makes the game go by much faster as you have less to explain. If the list is approved by the TO, then its the TO's problem after that. The tournament should provide each table a packet as to how to score EACH game. Each player's score card should match their opponents (ie they should double check each other). If there are problems with scoring, the TO should come by and score the end result from the game. End of story. Coming online and airing this kind of dirty laundry is disturbing and should not be tolerated. Have you ever played a cheater? Yes, would you play them again? Some I would, some I wouldn't. Take the time to push the kid in the right direction. Otherwise, our next option is to shun them, and shun them I will.

boyd wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:

boyd wrote:I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

Those are rather Draconian measures. How is someone supposed to learn in an environment like that? Should the cheating be tolerated? Absolutely not, but in order to deal with the cheater we, as a community, should not debase ourselves by resorting to bullying; either in person or on the internet.

Why not? Who knows, with the right carrot in front of him, he may end up changing is his lying and cheating ways. Shunning has always worked for the Amish.

I guess you are unaware of the finer points of satire. For that I am truly sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corrode wrote:

boyd wrote:I think you should get the entire gaming community to shun the kid. When he comes into the store, nobody should talk to him or acknowledge his existence. If he starts talking to you, walk away. Same goes for the shop keep, he should stop selling the kid toy soldiers and then talk to his dad again and tell him that the kid needs to get out and play some sports or something else because toy soldiers don't sound to be his thing. If he starts posting on Dakka, find his user name and have the mods lock any and all threads before anyone can comment.

This is the only solution for a cheater.

This is a great solution if you're a passive-aggressive manbaby who can't deal with any kind of confrontation. Alternately if you're a grown adult you can talk to the kid and explain that you have no interest in playing him until he stops cheating.

I'm still an adult and I play with my little toy soldiers. If this makes me a man-baby, then so be it. If you know me, I don't stay away from confrontation - that said, I only fight battles I will win. There is no use in kicking a dead horse.

If I may, I would suggest that you read some satire. I do have a proposition that could end world hunger and cut down on the homeless population as well. I mean if you're into that sort of thing...

I had no idea Jonathan Swift was a contributing member of Dakka.

[quote=OverwatchCNC
I had no idea Jonathan Swift was a contributing member of Dakka.

Haters gonna hate

Its all good, in fact I was smiling when I responded. Some people make me think there is hope for the human race.

Yehhhh Lets burn him and disembowl him and put eyelashes in his eyes.

Really? Seriously guys; Is this a Troll Thread?

Ok, to those over 16 years old on this thread who are flaming this kid hang your damn heads in shame and look forward to a life of "Creepy Checks" for every job you go for.

To the OP, if i was this kids dad i would be beating the hell out of you for your unhealthy interest in my child.

Im OTT? Not really.
Here is the facts...
The child is a child, yes a child. Children do these things and whilst its annoying and it can piss you off its a fact of life.
His father when alerted seems to take very pro active action against his son.
The TO seems more than able to take a firm view of the child.
Actually the only person who seems to have a problem is bully boy OP who if it happens again will probably demand the electric chair.

I honestly cannot believe others are asking for him to be shunned by everyone else also.
Do you really want a future suicide stat on your consience?

I will say the next part as clear as i can....

IT IS A GAME, A GAME, NOTHING MORE, WINNING OR LOSING BY FAIR MEANS OR FOUL WILL HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOUR SAD, PATHETIC SEXLESS LIFE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

Here is another thing.
Instead of wanting to alienate the child, might i be so bold as to make an incredibly evocative suggestion?

Why dont you all try and be a little nicer to him and teach him how to play properly?
Help him with his lists, etc.

Im sorry to say folks but some of the posters on this thread are a goddam sorry excuse for a human being.

You are right, kind of, but it is fair to be upset at someone for cheating.

If a 13 year old (which I am) comes to play warhammer 40k with adults, he has to accept the responsibilities and the fact that he wont be coddled.
People come to a tournament to actually have a fun competetive game, and don't have to deal with some teen who is cheating.

Also, don't use to many caps, and personal insults to these people are not cool.

GBDarkAngel wrote:Yehhhh Lets burn him and disembowl him and put eyelashes in his eyes.

Really? Seriously guys; Is this a Troll Thread?

Ok, to those over 16 years old on this thread who are flaming this kid hang your damn heads in shame and look forward to a life of "Creepy Checks" for every job you go for.

To the OP, if i was this kids dad i would be beating the hell out of you for your unhealthy interest in my child.

Im OTT? Not really.
Here is the facts...
The child is a child, yes a child. Children do these things and whilst its annoying and it can piss you off its a fact of life.
His father when alerted seems to take very pro active action against his son.
The TO seems more than able to take a firm view of the child.
Actually the only person who seems to have a problem is bully boy OP who if it happens again will probably demand the electric chair.

I honestly cannot believe others are asking for him to be shunned by everyone else also.
Do you really want a future suicide stat on your consience?

I will say the next part as clear as i can....

IT IS A GAME, A GAME, NOTHING MORE, WINNING OR LOSING BY FAIR MEANS OR FOUL WILL HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOUR SAD, PATHETIC SEXLESS LIFE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

Here is another thing.
Instead of wanting to alienate the child, might i be so bold as to make an incredibly evocative suggestion?

Why dont you all try and be a little nicer to him and teach him how to play properly?
Help him with his lists, etc.

Im sorry to say folks but some of the posters on this thread are a goddam sorry excuse for a human being.

I like this. The whole cheating kid thing is whatever, help him like the above suggested, but if he doesn't accept it or continues refuse to play with him until hes fixed his damage.

Remulus wrote: You are right, kind of, but it is fair to be upset at someone for cheating.

If a 13 year old (which I am) comes to play warhammer 40k with adults, he has to accept the responsibilities and the fact that he wont be coddled.
People come to a tournament to actually have a fun competetive game, and don't have to deal with some teen who is cheating.

Also, don't use to many caps, and personal insults to these people are not cool.

WTF.....OMG....Right, thats it.....Bed now without any supper.

I have an idea. Why doesn't his dad make sure he only brings the models that are on his list? I have a 14 year old and she would never pull something like this. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that telling the father isn't going to accomplish much. He's obviously not doing a stellar parenting job to begin with.

ChainswordHeretic wrote:I have an idea. Why doesn't his dad make sure he only brings the models that are on his list? I have a 14 year old and she would never pull something like this. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that telling the father isn't going to accomplish much. He's obviously not doing a stellar parenting job to begin with.

From the description I doubt the kid is adhering strictly to WYSIWYG in the first place.

If that was me and it continued after it was pointed out to his father ,I would ban his father from playing until his son cleans up his act.


If you keep punishing someone and it doesn't work or they don't 'get it' then you have to punish the people around him. If that doesn't make him change his ways so he doesn't screw over his own father, then the kid is clearly a sociolpath and needs to be offed now so that his genes dont contaminate the rest of us.

GBDarkAngel wrote:Yehhhh Lets burn him and disembowl him and put eyelashes in his eyes.

Really? Seriously guys; Is this a Troll Thread?

Ok, to those over 16 years old on this thread who are flaming this kid hang your damn heads in shame and look forward to a life of "Creepy Checks" for every job you go for.

To the OP, if i was this kids dad i would be beating the hell out of you for your unhealthy interest in my child.

Im OTT? Not really.
Here is the facts...
The child is a child, yes a child. Children do these things and whilst its annoying and it can piss you off its a fact of life.
His father when alerted seems to take very pro active action against his son.
The TO seems more than able to take a firm view of the child.
Actually the only person who seems to have a problem is bully boy OP who if it happens again will probably demand the electric chair.

I honestly cannot believe others are asking for him to be shunned by everyone else also.
Do you really want a future suicide stat on your consience?

I will say the next part as clear as i can....

IT IS A GAME, A GAME, NOTHING MORE, WINNING OR LOSING BY FAIR MEANS OR FOUL WILL HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOUR SAD, PATHETIC SEXLESS LIFE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

Here is another thing.
Instead of wanting to alienate the child, might i be so bold as to make an incredibly evocative suggestion?

Why dont you all try and be a little nicer to him and teach him how to play properly?
Help him with his lists, etc.

Im sorry to say folks but some of the posters on this thread are a goddam sorry excuse for a human being.

I am gonna guess you are a cheater as well with your defense above of this kid.

Here is the deal, his dad is a frequent gamer and so has the kid for the past two years. The kid is 13, going on 14, so at what point is telling him not to cheat needed? You act as if this is a toddler taking his first steps and people are jumping on him for stumbling. He isn't, he is a habitual cheater that people wont even play a friendly game against because of his reputation. The first time I ever played against him was in tournament play and complete strangers came up to me to warn me and be sure and check his codex and list.

The store recently had another IG player disappear from the store after it was discovered he had been cheating as well. That kid was 17yrsin old. Do you think maybe someone probably sbould have stopped him w3yrs prior to when he was finally caught? So what is the problem with telling this kid's dad that his son is making him look like a gakky parent? Or that his kid is going to get both of them banned from tournament play?

And that is the issue, tournament play is tournament play. Paying $30-$50 bucks on an entry fee to find out that some kid was being a jerkoff during the course of the tournament is crap. The prize support from the store was pretty damn good beyind just overall and best general; Best Sportsman scored 3 boxes of Wolfguard in TDA and last place got an Ork Battleforce. There were individual match challenges that scored you $20 gift certificates like first opponent HQ kill or worse dice roll. But yea, you are totally right that with that type of financial commitment on both the player and owners part that cheating should be accepted.

And as has been pointed out, this is not a case of,

"I am a kid and didt know that cheating was wrong!!"

Seriuosly you sound like a liberal parenting advocate that wants to excuse the cheating through some psychobabble about him not getting enough hugs at home. The kid cheats to win to get prize support, simple as that.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
If that was me and it continued after it was pointed out to his father ,I would ban his father from playing until his son cleans up his act.


If you keep punishing someone and it doesn't work or they don't 'get it' then you have to punish the people around him. If that doesn't make him change his ways so he doesn't screw over his own father, then the kid is clearly a sociolpath and needs to be offed now so that his genes dont contaminate the rest of us.

.

Interesting way of thinking this one out.

First of all lets get what the official term is for this disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

Does this fit the child?

Not quite since he is too young for being diagnosed as such

The TO handled it the way he thought it would be best for the event. Other TO's such as myself might have handled the situation differently.

Brother Ramses wrote:
I am gonna guess you are a cheater as well with your defense above of this kid.

Pot calling Kettle black as you have frequently endorced cheating for an advantage in YMTC threads... Don't call people cheaters because they don't agree with you.

Here is the deal, his dad is a frequent gamer and so has the kid for the past two years. The kid is 13, going on 14, so at what point is telling him not to cheat needed? You act as if this is a toddler taking his first steps and people are jumping on him for stumbling. He isn't, he is a habitual cheater that people wont even play a friendly game against because of his reputation. The first time I ever played against him was in tournament play and complete strangers came up to me to warn me and be sure and check his codex and list.

If you check his list and hold him to what is on his list, what is the problem? Sure it is unpleasant, but you still have to play him in the tourney.

The store recently had another IG player disappear from the store after it was discovered he had been cheating as well. That kid was 17yrsin old. Do you think maybe someone probably sbould have stopped him w3yrs prior to when he was finally caught? So what is the problem with telling this kid's dad that his son is making him look like a gakky parent? Or that his kid is going to get both of them banned from tournament play?

How was he 'caught cheating after 3 years'? Sounds like a lot of cheaters around you... makes me suspect your accusations and the serious business you are depicting.

And that is the issue, tournament play is tournament play. Paying $30-$50 bucks on an entry fee to find out that some kid was being a jerkoff during the course of the tournament is crap. The prize support from the store was pretty damn good beyind just overall and best general; Best Sportsman scored 3 boxes of Wolfguard in TDA and last place got an Ork Battleforce. There were individual match challenges that scored you $20 gift certificates like first opponent HQ kill or worse dice roll. But yea, you are totally right that with that type of financial commitment on both the player and owners part that cheating should be accepted.

The TOs know if someone is having problems or 'cheating' and they don't win anything. usually those people rank so low they win nothing... and if they do win something thet TO drops the score so they don't win.

And as has been pointed out, this is not a case of,

"I am a kid and didt know that cheating was wrong!!"

Seriously you sound like a liberal parenting advocate that wants to excuse the cheating through some psychobabble about him not getting enough hugs at home. The kid cheats to win to get prize support, simple as that.

No... You claim the kid who is cheating is somehow invalidating the results that prevented *YOU* from getting prize support, so what seems like it is being handled by the TO, you have made a huge crisis because *YOU* deserve cash and prizes you didn't earn. Sounds like the TO and the father had it well under control and you didn't get any swag and you blame the kid.

I do think it is interesting you are pre-inspecting lists when you claim you never have to share transport contents in the first place... Lots of cheating going on in your gaming circle it seems...

Brother Ramses wrote:I am gonna guess you are a cheater as well with your defense above of this kid....

Seriuosly you sound like a liberal parenting advocate that wants to excuse the cheating through some psychobabble about him not getting enough hugs at home. The kid cheats to win to get prize support, simple as that.

<enough; people can disagree with you, and you don't have to resort to name-calling or unfounded accusations as a response. Tone it down, or lose the ability to discuss the issue.>

First of all trying to inject the Note on Secrecy debate into this thread is laughable. You couldn't even point to any RAW that supported identifying squads by how they were equipped or the RAW that supported the stance that models had to be displayed on the table when not in play.

My goal for this tournament ended in round 3 when I lost. I had grand visions of getting to play Blackmoor which ended with that loss. The only prize supported I wanted was the Best Sportsman which was three boxes of WGTDA. My loss was to the person that won Best Sportsman and he practically oozed it all over the table so it was completely warranted.

List babysitting a know cheater is not part of the game. If you want to do that in a friendly game, feel free. In a tournament where the matches are determined by pairings and win/loss, getting paired to someone that needs to be babysat through a game is crap.

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will say the next part as clear as i can....

IT IS A GAME, A GAME, NOTHING MORE, WINNING OR LOSING BY FAIR MEANS OR FOUL WILL HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOUR SAD, PATHETIC SEXLESS LIFE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

Well, you've already had your hat handed to you by a nice, well-written 13 year old, but I thought it might bear thinking about that the same rationale can also be applied to forum discussions. IT'S A FORUM THREAD, JUST A THREAD, NOTHING MORE. YELLING OR BERATING OTHER POSTERS WON'T MAKE YOU LOOK MORE MANLY OR MATURE THAN THE PEOPLE YOU CALL SAD OR PATHETIC.

Let's keep it all in perspective, shall we? Sometimes someone gets emotional and posts something a bit too heated, but that doesn't excuse others doing the same. Two wrongs not making a right and all that, 'eh chaps?

Mannahnin wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will say the next part as clear as i can....

IT IS A GAME, A GAME, NOTHING MORE, WINNING OR LOSING BY FAIR MEANS OR FOUL WILL HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOUR SAD, PATHETIC SEXLESS LIFE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

Well, you've already had your hat handed to you by a nice, well-written 13 year old, but I thought it might bear thinking about that the same rationale can also be applied to forum discussions. IT'S A FORUM THREAD, JUST A THREAD, NOTHING MORE. YELLING OR BERATING OTHER POSTERS WON'T MAKE YOU LOOK MORE MANLY OR MATURE THAN THE PEOPLE YOU CALL SAD OR PATHETIC.

Let's keep it all in perspective, shall we? Sometimes someone gets emotional and posts something a bit too heated, but that doesn't excuse others doing the same. Two wrongs not making a right and all that, 'eh chaps?

Was he really 13? I doubt you are so shallow as to take that as read.
If you are, im actually your long long lost brother and i need 1 million bucks to stop aliens killing me.

muwhe wrote:Wow. The kid is 13 years old. Someone should spend some quality time with the kid and enforce the importance and value of playing the game with integrity over the value of “winning”. Sounds like a good opportunity to have a positive impact on a kid and do some hobby mentoring ..

If you look at top tournaments, plenty of people bicker with other players, slow play, call the judge an unnecessary number of times, "forget" things, or blatantly attempt to cheat, people with a WAAC attitude exist at every level of the game. I would give the kid a talking to AND ban him for X number of tournaments. You could even be "evil" and make him verify army lists for the next years worth of tournaments to lift the ban.

Brother Ramses wrote:"I am a kid and didt know that cheating was wrong!!"

So the kid cheats to win prizes? How many prizes has he actually won?

I doubt he has won any.

Deleting some off-topic persnal bickering from the thread.

Let's not make it personal, folks. Reading into people's positions to infer some sort of negative assessment of them as people is rude and inappropriate. It's a violation of Dakka rules, as well as a bad tactic in an argument, as it never convinces anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Well, you've already had your hat handed to you by a nice, well-written 13 year old, but I thought it might bear thinking about that the same rationale can also be applied to forum discussions. IT'S A FORUM THREAD, JUST A THREAD, NOTHING MORE. YELLING OR BERATING OTHER POSTERS WON'T MAKE YOU LOOK MORE MANLY OR MATURE THAN THE PEOPLE YOU CALL SAD OR PATHETIC.

Let's keep it all in perspective, shall we? Sometimes someone gets emotional and posts something a bit too heated, but that doesn't excuse others doing the same. Two wrongs not making a right and all that, 'eh chaps?

Was he really 13? I doubt you are so shallow as to take that as read.
If you are, im actually your long long lost brother and i need 1 million bucks to stop aliens killing me.

You don't think that there are teenagers posting on here? Literate, polite 13 year olds who enjoy these games and who might be motivated to post in a thread where someone their age is being called out publicly as a cheater? As a quick factual note, there are certainly teenagers posting on Dakka, and I personally remember very well how interested I was as a teenage gamer when teenage gamers came up in discussion, or when they were negatively characterized.

Brother Ramses wrote:First of all trying to inject the Note on Secrecy debate into this thread is laughable. You couldn't even point to any RAW that supported identifying squads by how they were equipped or the RAW that supported the stance that models had to be displayed on the table when not in play.

You claimed you played secrecy in tourneys... how did it work out for you in this one? You have your own rigid interpretation of the rules which conflict with a large number of other players... so I question your ability to judge cheating verses different rule interpretations...

My goal for this tournament ended in round 3 when I lost. I had grand visions of getting to play Blackmoor which ended with that loss. The only prize supported I wanted was the Best Sportsman which was three boxes of WGTDA. My loss was to the person that won Best Sportsman and he practically oozed it all over the table so it was completely warranted.

Wanting to play Blackmoor is admirable... somehow playing to win 'best sport' pretty clearly shows the concept escapes you if you think you have to strive for it or think you can game the game to win it. Suspicious at your own motivations.

List babysitting a know cheater is not part of the game. If you want to do that in a friendly game, feel free. In a tournament where the matches are determined by pairings and win/loss, getting paired to someone that needs to be babysat through a game is crap.

It sure as heck is part of the game if he hasn't broken any rules that the TO has disqualified him. If you want to play in the tourney then you do have to list babysit him. 'Known cheater' is a relative term and going into a game with the attitude the person is cheating shows a complete lack of sportsmanship. It is up to the TO who is allowed to play, and if he says you list babysit him to continue in the tourney then you list babysit him. You don't get to make unsubstantiated claims to pre-disqualify people you don't want to play so you get a better shot at winning SWAG.

I have my broom and declare shenanigans on this entire situation until I hear confirmation from the TO or other participants.

hell, I've been gaming since I was 9 (16 now) and I can say that I have never knowingly cheated. I have garnered somewhat of a reputation of forgetting things or not saying what I am thinking. e.g. forgetting to actually role to wound after hitting, or why did I just pick up the 4 when shooting with my lootas. However, I always reroll anything I screw up.

There is a large difference between that and purposefully changing stats to help you win. (and i still think it's all ork players who are forgetful not just me)

"Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."


I've had many kids cheat in school and a 'talking to' rarely works. In fact that would be the best possible punishment as it means they can try again in a few weeks.

Spell out the consequences before the event in person so there is no misunderstanding. Now this is the most important part - Make sure you stick to those consequences - no grey area. When they realise you are serious, it won't happen again.

As a side note I have found that to many specific rules can backfire. When kids know where the boundary line is they will walk right up to it from the get go. Make the rules vague - like improper play will not be tolerated. That way they won't be sure what falls under improper play and they will tend to toe the line since the boundaries are fuzzy. That tends to help alot.

nkelsch wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:First of all trying to inject the Note on Secrecy debate into this thread is laughable. You couldn't even point to any RAW that supported identifying squads by how they were equipped or the RAW that supported the stance that models had to be displayed on the table when not in play.

You claimed you played secrecy in tourneys... how did it work out for you in this one? You have your own rigid interpretation of the rules which conflict with a large number of other players... so I question your ability to judge cheating verses different rule interpretations...

My goal for this tournament ended in round 3 when I lost. I had grand visions of getting to play Blackmoor which ended with that loss. The only prize supported I wanted was the Best Sportsman which was three boxes of WGTDA. My loss was to the person that won Best Sportsman and he practically oozed it all over the table so it was completely warranted.

Wanting to play Blackmoor is admirable... somehow playing to win 'best sport' pretty clearly shows the concept escapes you if you think you have to strive for it or think you can game the game to win it. Suspicious at your own motivations.

List babysitting a know cheater is not part of the game. If you want to do that in a friendly game, feel free. In a tournament where the matches are determined by pairings and win/loss, getting paired to someone that needs to be babysat through a game is crap.

It sure as heck is part of the game if he hasn't broken any rules that the TO has disqualified him. If you want to play in the tourney then you do have to list babysit him. 'Known cheater' is a relative term and going into a game with the attitude the person is cheating shows a complete lack of sportsmanship. It is up to the TO who is allowed to play, and if he says you list babysit him to continue in the tourney then you list babysit him. You don't get to make unsubstantiated claims to pre-disqualify people you don't want to play so you get a better shot at winning SWAG.

I have my broom and declare shenanigans on this entire situation until I hear confirmation from the TO or other participants.

You might want to go back and check how I played and my entire stance on the Note on Secrecy. I follow it to the letter. You claiming that I must tell you how the squads are equipped is not identifying the squads, that is telling you their composition. For your information, after handing over my list I told my opponent that my GH packs right shoulder pad, atched the shouldepad on their Rhino, and I then placed the wold standard bearer with matching shoulderpad on top of the Rhino. Every single player said something akin to,

"Cool you painted them all to match their transports."

Not a single one went onto to whine and cry for squad composition.

You shoud probably go back and read the threads on this subject again as it is your argument that everyone and their mother is just waiting to play the swithceroo, even if you have never played them. It is your side that argues that everyone is just waiting for the chance to play a shell game.

That is not the case here. This kid has cheated, before this GT and now at a GT. Complete strangers warned me before I had ever even known the kid. Complete strangers that knew the IG codex betterand then I were calling him for crap from the side of the table. His own father called him on trying toto swap out athe tank for another in the middle of the game. The kid confirmed it through the game at at the end when he tried to add an objective to the table. He has confirmed it again with the GT. That is a known cheater. If he is in a another tournament the TO has to either kick him from it or make someone available to judge tableside every action he takes because the TO is letting a known cheater play. Babysitting a known cheater is the job of the TO that decided to let him play, not the random gamer that gets paired with him.

Working to get Best Sportsman is not a good thing now? Dash just did it despite his know drama record. And the funny thing is you don't know me for jack so you have no idea about my table manners. I maxxed on sportsmanship this tournament and agreed that the guy who got it was more then deservong of it. It was like playing a fluffy bunny with Red Thirst and Blood Talons. So playing to get best sportsman is from the what you are trying to make it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man my phone craps out some messed up spelling.

Brother Ramses wrote:

You might want to go back and check how I played and my entire stance on the Note on Secrecy. I follow it to the letter. You claiming that I must tell you how the squads are equipped is not identifying the squads, that is telling you their composition. For your information, after handing over my list I told my opponent that my GH packs right shoulder pad, atched the shouldepad on their Rhino, and I then placed the wold standard bearer with matching shoulderpad on top of the Rhino. Every single player said something akin to,

"Cool you painted them all to match their transports."

Not a single one went onto to whine and cry for squad composition.

and if they had asked, you would have been obligated to distinguish the unit composition for them. Fully disclosing your list to them pre-game probably made this unnessesary. If you would have refused to disclose, I would have reported you to the TO. See how your 'valid interpretation' quickly can become someone else saying 'Hey TO, this guy is a cheater.'

You shoud probably go back and read the threads on this subject again as it is your argument that everyone and their mother is just waiting to play the swithceroo, even if you have never played them. It is your side that argues that everyone is just waiting for the chance to play a shell game.

Full disclosure... If you exchanged lists, then you fully disclosed... How you can claim you didn't fully disclose is beyond me.

That is not the case here. This kid has cheated, before this GT and now at a GT. Complete strangers warned me before I had ever even known the kid. Complete strangersstrangers that knewI the IGstandard codex betterand then Ito were callingequipped him forand crap fromwith the sidegame of thethe table. His ownhead father calledwas him onand trying toto swap out athe tank for anotherfinal in thea middle of ourthe game. The kid confirmed it through the game at at the end when he tried to add an objective to the table. He has confirmed it again with the GT. That is a known cheater. If he is in a another tournament the TO has to either kick him from it or make someone available to judge tableside every action he takes because the TO is letting a known cheater play. Babysitting a known cheater is the job of the TO that decided to let him play, not the random gamer that gets paired with him.

Not knowing his rules does not make him a cheater.
Forgetting his stats does not make him a cheater.
If he makes mistakes, you correct the mistakes. If he had made it through 3 games without being disqualified, I declare FLGS drama on you and your people so-called warning you... You were just annoyed having to play someone you felt was too inexperienced to play against and are making his 'mistakes' blatant cheating. You had $$ in your eyes and are now angry because you blame him for losing your cash.

All of his 'mistakes or lies' were easily corrected, the games don't lose integrity, and sometimes you have to 'list babysit' an inexperienced player in a tourney where you may know their rules better than them. If there was an issue, tell the TO... Obviously the TO didn't feel the errors or cheating was offensive enough to eject the person... I have yet to see anything that shows that it was. Your attitude reeks of intolerance, powergaming and your past way you interpret rules and strive to game sportsmanship makes me suspicious of your whole impression of this kid. May be be inexperienced? sure... should he be banned from tourneys or should tourneys have minimal skill levels to participate? absolutely not. I have a feeling, your story and the TO don't mesh...

Working to get Best Sportsman is not a good thing now? Dash just did it despite his know drama record. And the funny thing is you don't know me for jack so you have no idea about my table manners. I maxxed on sportsmanship this tournament and agreed that the guy who got it was more then deservong of it. It was like playing a fluffy bunny with Red Thirst and Blood Talons. So playing to get best sportsman is from the what you are trying to make it.

Dash won at Nova because he was being himself and his opponents enjoyed playing him. He didn't blow smoke and rainbows up people's asses with the expectation of maximizing points to claim swag. He happened to hit 8 opponents who enjoyed his personality and demeanor... the day before he hit someone who did not enjoy playing him... Dash didn't strive to change the way he was at NOVA to win a prize... No one should. The simple act of trying to game sportsmanship to win a prize shows a total lack of sportsmanship. Using demeaning terms like 'fluff bunny' is probably also not the best way to be considered a 'good sport'...You don't need to bring a weak list and lose games to be a good sport. True good sports are good sports whether they are losing badly or crushing your skull in.

I've played the kid in a tournament before.. Not fun.

The kid does know the rules, and he does know his stats. When you correct him on things continually and his most common retort is "oh yeah"... Thats cheating. After two years of playing imperial guard and not remembering they hit on a 4+? cheating. He does swap around models mid game or mid tournament, one game he has heavy bolters.. The next they're lascannons. One game a hellhound, the next a banewolf, and now back to a hellhound. Cheating.


If you want to argue with the op and stick up for the kid just for the sake of arguing, thats fine. But that kid does blatantly cheat any chance he gets. Playing him is a miserable experience, you won't lose but it will completely suck the fun out of the afternoon. I don't enjoy crushing kids in the first place, I definitely don't like crushing cheating little kids and then having to explain to their dad why the kid shouldn't be tagging along for tournaments. Its a crap experience for everyone.

I mean, break it down at the minimum. Who gets to have a crappy time because of 1 kid?
3 opponents
The kid
The Dad
The tournament organizer.

Thats 6 people at a minimum who either have a crap game, or a uncomfortable conversation just because one kid can't control himself and his dad obviously can't instill good habits into his kid.

Another store on the other side of town had a kid that would literally cry during games he was losing. I didn't have to play him, but witnessed it on 2 occasions in 2 different tournaments. How much does it suck to be the guy playing against that? Meanwhile, dad is on the other side of the room gaming away.

I'm all for kids gaming. It's great. I started at 8 years old and have been playing for the last 22. I've been playing competitively for the last 12 or so... But the ones who come with parents and act like jerks all weekend and the parents do nothing about it, well that sucks to be around.

I attended this tournament and played the kid in question. It was my first experience with him, and I was not warned beforehand, so I treated it like any other game. I took a quick look at his list, read any rules I wasn't familiar with off of the army builder and asked him to identify to me what was what as he deployed it. I didn't look at the army builder list he gave me until the end of the game from that point on as I did not expect to be lied to. He had 5 or 6 chimera's with guard in them, a bunch of conscripts, a manticore, and some leman russes. It turns out that all of the guard had no heavy weapons, but he shot lascannons every turn from each squad. It also turns out the leman russes did not have heavy bolter sponsons, but he also used those every turn. I was able to win on the mission objective, but it was disappointing to learn later that I had a much rougher game than I should have, and probably got a lot less victory points due to his increased firepower on my paper planes (Dark Eldar).

Besides that I also noticed that he rolled out of sight a lot, and even when I asked him to roll where I could clearly see he would still revert to behind his tanks on important rolls. I can't say for sure that he lied about what he rolled, so I won't accuse him of that. He was also very eager to claim cover on pretty much anything (regular guardsmen standing in front of leman russes) and very argumentative whenever I would ask for cover. Overall it was not a very pleasant game and I probably would not look forward to playing him again, but the game didn't ruin my overall experience at the GT or anything.

Quick get a rope and head to the nearest tree!

If this kid cheats then the problem in with him, not the parent.

Now, I don't know how many on here are parents themselves, but as a dad I will tell you this, kids will act in a deceitful manner any time such an action will benefit them. (As a minor, the TO handled the matter correctly by bringing the matter to the dad, but it is still your reponsibility to act/highlight what has happened, or at least under UK Child Protection Laws. Kids have more rights than us now!)

Punishing the parents will not change this basic facet of their worldview. I've taught my kids right from wrong, but I still wouldn't put it past them to cheat, if they thought they could get away with it. In this case, I feel that the child knows that his opponents won't call him out directly on this, reverting to the TO/father approach.

Complaining about it on this forum won't change anything.

Cheers

Andrew

Mundar, if what is on the table doesn't match his list or it changes frequently... What is the TO doing? Is no one enforcing wysiwyg? I am not saying he is fun to play against, but if he makes a mistake, you correct him. If he is changing models on the table, then you report that to the TO that his models don't match his list.

I dunno... Sounds like the main problem with your tourney is the lack of wysiwyg or enforcing of it... If the list had no sponsons, his tanks are not wysiwyg. Does this GT allow proxies? If so... Then it is on you to list babysit over modeled options... If the tourney is wysiwyg then the TO needs to enforce that.

I hear lots of unpleasantness... But nothing that can't be controlled by being vigilant and on top of the game.

That store rarely enforces wysiwyg. I'm not sure if they did for their GT.. But for their monthly ones, they do not. I believe it's because a lot of their player base is new to the game, so may still be finding their feet as far as army building goes.

Generally, proxies are whatever and 99% of the time not a problem. But I guess one rotten apple spoils them all.

The kid usually makes his changes from game to game. Playing against bugs or orks, break out heavy bolters. Marines? Plasma and lascannons for everyone.

Mundar wrote:That store rarely enforces wysiwyg. I'm not sure if they did for their GT.. But for their monthly ones, they do not. I believe it's because a lot of their player base is new to the game, so may still be finding their feet as far as army building goes.

Generally, proxies are whatever and 99% of the time not a problem. But I guess one rotten apple spoils them all.

The kid usually makes his changes from game to game. Playing against bugs or orks, break out heavy bolters. Marines? Plasma and lascannons for everyone.

If they are not enforcing wysiwyg, then it is your job to be list babysitting all opponents because it sounds like there is a lack of expectation for wysiwyg... If they are not going to be upfront with proxies, then you have to protect yourself. If he puts over modeled sponsons on the table and/or swaps in army specific weapons, and the venue doesn't enforce wysiwyg then it is on you to look at the list and call him on the proxies and remind him when he deviates from his list.

It may be unpleasant, but very hard to call people using proxies 'cheaters' if they forget what they are proxying. I feel a tourney is unplayable with proxies and this is a good example why. All you can do is give your TO feedback of how you would correct the issue and suffer through unpleasant games. Allowing proxies is opening the door to gaming confusion and not having wysiwyg models keeping players clear and honest. Strict wysiwyg sounds like it would solve a lot of this events issues.

nkelsch wrote:Mundar, if what is on the table doesn't match his list or it changes frequently... What is the TO doing? Is no one enforcing wysiwyg? I am not saying he is fun to play against, but if he makes a mistake, you correct him. If he is changing models on the table, then you report that to the TO that his models don't match his list.

I dunno... Sounds like the main problem with your tourney is the lack of wysiwyg or enforcing of it... If the list had no sponsons, his tanks are not wysiwyg. Does this GT allow proxies? If so... Then it is on you to list babysit over modeled options... If the tourney is wysiwyg then the TO needs to enforce that.

I hear lots of unpleasantness... But nothing that can't be controlled by being vigilant and on top of the game.

You seem to not really grasp the concept of WYSIWYG

The wording of the rule points you in the direction that if you choose to represent optional equipment on a model it must be visually represented on the model. If the kid does not pay for heavy bolters on a his Leman Russes for instance, he is not obligated by WYIWYG to remove them from his model. What this kid relies on is his opponent not fact checking his every move, shoot, and assault against his list, which is how normal players playing this game play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically what I mean is it is like my Grey Hunters. They come standard with ccw/bp/bolter but I am not obligated to represent all of them. However if I give one a melta I need to model it. If I choose not to use that melta next game, the rule does not really obligate you to visually represent the melta not being used.

Sounds like a tough call for the TO to make. On one hand the kid is only 13, and lets be honest most kids in that age bracket (that I know of) want to win more then learn and play by the rules. However that doesn't excuse his behavior. I'd issue a 1 tournament ban and a 1 year probation. If his behavior continued I'd just inform his father that his son was no longer welcome in tournament play until such a time as he willing to play by the same standards and practices as others.

NecronDestroyerLord wrote:Sounds like a tough call for the TO to make. On one hand the kid is only 13, and lets be honest most kids in that age bracket (that I know of) want to win more then learn and play by the rules. However that doesn't excuse his behavior. I'd issue a 1 tournament ban and a 1 year probation. If his behavior continued I'd just inform his father that his son was no longer welcome in tournament play until such a time as he willing to play by the same standards and practices as others.

That is the basic consensus among the everyone that has had problems with this individual. Some action needs to be taken is what the majority of people feel.

I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

muwhe wrote:Wow. The kid is 13 years old. Someone should spend some quality time with the kid and enforce the importance and value of playing the game with integrity over the value of “winning”. Sounds like a good opportunity to have a positive impact on a kid and do some hobby mentoring ..

After reading some of these comments, I can't help but think that I have been a little complicit in his activities by taking a laissez-faire attitude in my games with him. I know all the stats, and I have time to glance at his army list, so I should take a more proactive role in stopping his bad behaviors and correcting them when I see them. I can beat him no matter what he pulls so I have not cared that much, but for the greater good I need to help everyone out by helping this kid learn good sportsmanship, and a win is meaningless if you do it by cheating.

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

Happily your personal feelings don't matter at all because within the context of most tournaments changing your list from game to game is actually against the rules, hence the problem presented by the OP. On top of that the kid actually isn't within the points limit because he presents a legal list to an opponent and then uses upgrades which are not on it.

I'm getting the strong impression you're a casual player who doesn't participate in competitive games - that's fine, more power to you, I'm sure you're having fun. Just like how you probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you to optimise this and replace X because Y is strictly better, though, nobody wants to hear what you think is appropriate for tournament play when you don't participate yourself.

Corrode wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

Happily your personal feelings don't matter at all because within the context of most tournaments changing your list from game to game is actually against the rules, hence the problem presented by the OP. On top of that the kid actually isn't within the points limit because he presents a legal list to an opponent and then uses upgrades which are not on it.

I'm getting the strong impression you're a casual player who doesn't participate in competitive games - that's fine, more power to you, I'm sure you're having fun. Just like how you probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you to optimise this and replace X because Y is strictly better, though, nobody wants to hear what you think is appropriate for tournament play when you don't participate yourself.

Yeh you are 100% correct. Well almost.
I have a couple of tournaments coming up. One this saturday and shifts allowing one at the start of October.
So i guess you really havent a clue what your on about.

As for rules.......
A wise man once said "Rules are for wise men to use as guidelines and fools to follow".
Not that hard to see where you fall in.

Not sure why you are trying to make this thread about you GBDarkAngel? I look forward to your AAR for the two tournaments you have coming up because you sound like an awesome fellow!

Anyway back OT, It seems that TO did as much as he could do without kicking the kid out of the premises (and therefore the dad).

However speaking as a parent I am a little surprised that the Father didn't pull the kid out of the tournament and withdraw himself. I appreciate that there is a financial element ($30 entry each?) to consider but I think in his shoes I would be mortified that my progeny would behave this way after a previous event and prior warning by many in the current event. Then got Junior back home for a full debriefing/kick up the arse.

True it ruins the Dad's tourney through no fault of his own but unfortunately that comes with parental responsibility IMO.

I'm pretty sure that the shame of ruining his Dads day would have been more than enough to set the kid on the right course or at least start him on it.

notprop wrote:Not sure why you are trying to make this thread about you GBDarkAngel? I look forward to your AAR for the two tournaments you have coming up because you sound like an awesome fellow!

You couldnt be further from the truth, its some selective editing and deleting by Mannahnin that has made it look that way.

If you are going to edit something to make it read in a very different light then you should just delete the whole post.

All this thread is about is a Big Bully Boy that has thrown his dummy out the pram because he didnt win a prize and is now looking to blame someone for this.

I have asked the same question 3 times (deleted 3 times also.)
How many prizes has this kid actually won over the past couple of years he has been playing (or cheating as the OP would have us believe)?

There was also a comment by the OP a page or so back where he went on that the TO prize support was amazing etc..
It seems there was around $300 of prizes up for grabs....
50 players @ $50 = $2500 minus $300 = $2200 in the TO's pocket. Its probably more as he will be buying the stock at 49%.
I think if the OP took a step or two back and looked at the big picture he would see exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game.

All this thread is about is a Big Bully Boy that has thrown his dummy out the pram because he didnt win a prize and is now looking to blame someone for this.

I have asked the same question 3 times (deleted 3 times also.)
How many prizes has this kid actually won over the past couple of years he has been playing (or cheating as the OP would have us believe)?

There was also a comment by the OP a page or so back where he went on that the TO prize support was amazing etc..
It seems there was around $300 of prizes up for grabs....
50 players @ $50 = $2500 minus $300 = $2200 in the TO's pocket. Its probably more as he will be buying the stock at 49%.
I think if the OP took a step or two back and looked at the big picture he would see exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game.

"Big bully boy"... You’re missing the point! The kid is a cheater! Why are you defending him? Regardless of his or the tournament style or your ability to beat him even with his cheating, it still a mater of principle. It doesn't matter what the prizes were, the motivation is irrelevant. You enter the tourney with no guarantee that you’ll walk away with anything. (different than expectation)
Secondly, those who continue to beat up the OP, when he is not the cheater is misplaced. According to several others, this kid is widely known as a cheater, not a rule “forgetter”. Quit making excuses for him and hold him responcible.

GBDA - You continue to blame the "victim" for the crimes of the "offender" - I use these terms in its most general sense, not as a personal characterization. I do not know any of the folks in question, but excusing bad behavior is wrong. This kind of thinking has already gotten him to believe that cheating is acceptable. Always someone elses fault. This kid is not a victim! I suspect that if the OP was a cheater this thread would have died on page one and that everyone would have call him on it and would expect he would be facing the same scrutiny, ridicule and or punishment.

Some of the comments on this thread that supports "as long as you don't get caught is ok" is irreprehensible, unprincipled and so wrong. I agree this TO needs to tighten the event rules and more actively enforce them but I support the personal responcibility is the key to turning this around.

"exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game. " What a narrow minded outlook. Not to mention SAD! Why not both for the prize and the fun. How shallow and disappointing of a comment.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
You seem to not really grasp the concept of WYSIWYG

The wording of the rule points you in the direction that if you choose to represent optional equipment on a model it must be visually represented on the model. If the kid does not pay for heavy bolters on a his Leman Russes for instance, he is not obligated by WYIWYG to remove them from his model. What this kid relies on is his opponent not fact checking his every move, shoot, and assault against his list, which is how normal players playing this game play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically what I mean is it is like my Grey Hunters. They come standard with ccw/bp/bolter but I am not obligated to represent all of them. However if I give one a melta I need to model it. If I choose not to use that melta next game, the rule does not really obligate you to visually represent the melta not being used.

In tourneys it does, and when a event is 100% WYSIWYG it does. If you are allowing overmodeling or meltas to be missile launchers those are PROXIES. Sponsons are optional equipment so the LACK of them must be represented on the model. Also, swaping a heavy bolter for a lascannon is also optional equipment. If you are not using a melta next game, for you to be WYSIWYG that melta better be in your case... You can't overmodel your whole army and claim WYSIWYG. Saying "the rules don't say I can't overmodel" doesn't make it legal.

If an event allows proxies, than you have to constantly watch your opponent and compare his models to a list. Which is fine in friendly play but oppressive and fosters cheating or at least misunderstandings in competative events. This event sounds like it is poorly run if it allows proxies, and the players all seem to be at fault for basically rolling over and not confronting this kid. It is really easy to correct his point values and hold his models on the table to the models on his list. If the kid beat you from these 'cheats' and you never called him on it, the integrity of the game is intact because you never said anything or reported it to the TO.

Ramses wants him banned before ever playing him for 'confirmed cheating' which sounds more like unconfirmed mistakes no one had the balls to actually correct him on. Those who did correct him frequently had an unpleasant game but finished the game.

Between the lack of understanding of WYSIWYG, Proxies, Secrecy shenanigans and spineless people who conspire in forums instead of simply correcting the behavior mid-game, sounds like an environment that promotes cheating to me.

The event was ran pretty flawless except for the incident with this kid. Eliminate what this kid did and has done, there is nothing wrong with the event at all. You are trying to misdirect the blame from the kid to the event, but here is what shuts down your argument,

No one else was using your percieved lack of WYSIWYG to cheat.

Everyone else at the tournament was not doing what this kid was doing. They were playing the game fair and from what I understand from talking with the TO, there was one rules dispute during the game he personally needed to make a call on, and this incident with the kid.

So the idea that this event and organizer encouraged this behavior is crap. This kid has done it before, been corrected and now has done it again. He is a cheater and needs a break from tournament play as a consequence.

Solar_lion wrote:

All this thread is about is a Big Bully Boy that has thrown his dummy out the pram because he didnt win a prize and is now looking to blame someone for this.

I have asked the same question 3 times (deleted 3 times also.)
How many prizes has this kid actually won over the past couple of years he has been playing (or cheating as the OP would have us believe)?

There was also a comment by the OP a page or so back where he went on that the TO prize support was amazing etc..
It seems there was around $300 of prizes up for grabs....
50 players @ $50 = $2500 minus $300 = $2200 in the TO's pocket. Its probably more as he will be buying the stock at 49%.
I think if the OP took a step or two back and looked at the big picture he would see exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game.

"Big bully boy"... You’re missing the point! The kid is a cheater! Why are you defending him? Regardless of his or the tournament style or your ability to beat him even with his cheating, it still a mater of principle. It doesn't matter what the prizes were, the motivation is irrelevant. You enter the tourney with no guarantee that you’ll walk away with anything. (different than expectation)
Secondly, those who continue to beat up the OP, when he is not the cheater is misplaced. According to several others, this kid is widely known as a cheater, not a rule “forgetter”. Quit making excuses for him and hold him responcible.

GBDA - You continue to blame the "victim" for the crimes of the "offender" - I use these terms in its most general sense, not as a personal characterization. I do not know any of the folks in question, but excusing bad behavior is wrong. This kind of thinking has already gotten him to believe that cheating is acceptable. Always someone elses fault. This kid is not a victim! I suspect that if the OP was a cheater this thread would have died on page one and that everyone would have call him on it and would expect he would be facing the same scrutiny, ridicule and or punishment.

Some of the comments on this thread that supports "as long as you don't get caught is ok" is irreprehensible, unprincipled and so wrong. I agree this TO needs to tighten the event rules and more actively enforce them but I support the personal responcibility is the key to turning this around.

"exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game. " What a narrow minded outlook. Not to mention SAD! Why not both for the prize and the fun. How shallow and disappointing of a comment.

Your missing the point, i am not defending him.
We have no corrobarated proof that he is a cheat.
All we have is an OP who says he is and has been for the past few years and everyones knows.

Ok, so answer me this.
If he was a cheat then why is he still allowed to enter these competitions?
If you were the TO and you knew this guy was a cheat would you allow him to enter without a judge scrutinising his every move? Of course you wouldnt as it would harm your tournaments rep.
3 pages into a thread and no one has even thought to question that. You say i am narrow minded, you are the one that is narrow minded.
You only had to read his post carefully to see the father, the TO etc were all just smoke and mirrors.
You see, even if the kid did cheat it did not affect the OP in any way. Neither did it affect the final prize standings.
What we have however is a form of asymmetric dominance in that the only issue is the OP failed to win or gain a prize and is attempting to make everyone believe that it was this kids fault.
It wasnt anyones fault apart from the OP's, he wasnt good enough over the 2 days, he wasnt put off his game in any way either.
What he is attempting to do is use this incident in order to either get a refund, get free entry into the next one or both and that is plain and simple and that is where the asymmetric dominance comes into play.
The Kid in question might well be a cheat, but what we also know though is that the OP is an incredibly bad loser so we need to take an objective look at the original post and not fall into the smoke and mirrors trap.

Hasn't there like, been a few people from this "club" who have agreed with OP, and even one who said he wasn't sure but now feels his attitude of "it's ok" has possibly contributed?

See, if it was just the OP on a crusade, I could agree with nkelsch and GBDarkAngel.

But it isn't.

Brother Ramses wrote:The event was ran pretty flawless except for the incident with this kid. Eliminate what this kid did and has done, there is nothing wrong with the event at all. You are trying to misdirect the blame from the kid to the event, but here is what shuts down your argument,

No one else was using your percieved lack of WYSIWYG to cheat.

and no one was watching his proxies to keep him honest. They let him cheat with no confronting him and then came to the internet to claim they had money stolen from them.

All you have to do is be aware the event allows proxies and say 'that is not a missile launcher on your list here...' or 'you didn't buy the sponson upgrades'.

Everyone else at the tournament was not doing what this kid was doing. They were playing the game fair and from what I understand from talking with the TO, there was one rules dispute during the game he personally needed to make a call on, and this incident with the kid.

needing a rules dispute called doesn't make him a cheater... if you would have refused to fully disclose your units in your transports, i would have needed the TO to make a call... doesn't mean you are necessarily a cheater.

So the idea that this event and organizer encouraged this behavior is crap. This kid has done it before, been corrected and now has done it again. He is a cheater and needs a break from tournament play as a consequence.

Or maybe he is a child and you are intolerant of inexperienced players or children in general. Seems like it is up to the TO to decide who may or may not continue to play in his events... not you making an internet lynch mob to get your way because you feel like you were wronged out of prize support.

All I hear are easily corrected mistakes that might be intentional, but still are easily corrected. The kid sounds unpleasant to play against, but if you correct his stats, hold him to what is on his list and make him play by the rules, he isn't cheating... just an unpleasant opponent. If it is really that bad of an impact, then let the TO handle it. It seems like the kid 'cheats' because so many of the other people at the event roll their eyes and ignore his actions and allow him to do it. If every adult in the room constantly read his list and stats to him and never let him get away with anything, he would not be able to get away with it. Other people have noted he is annoying and tries things, but they all say 'I let the behavior happen' or 'I corrected the behavior and things moved forward.'

It is really up to the TO and the store owner. If you really don't want to play this kid, then abstain from events run by this TO or include this kid. You are the adult and can totally decide what you do with your time.

Brother Ramses wrote:The event was ran pretty flawless except for the incident with this kid. Eliminate what this kid did and has done, there is nothing wrong with the event at all. You are trying to misdirect the blame from the kid to the event, but here is what shuts down your argument,

No one else was using your percieved lack of WYSIWYG to cheat.

Everyone else at the tournament was not doing what this kid was doing. They were playing the game fair and from what I understand from talking with the TO, there was one rules dispute during the game he personally needed to make a call on, and this incident with the kid.

So the idea that this event and organizer encouraged this behavior is crap. This kid has done it before, been corrected and now has done it again. He is a cheater and needs a break from tournament play as a consequence.

That actually reinforces what i have just said.
One incident, the TO made a call and everyone got on with it. Even then it was a rules dispute which can be quite common at tournaments as the rules are only guidelines and as clearly stated in the rule book open to interpretation and expansion from the players.
(Page 3 of the WFB rulebook, bottom right hand corner and yes that applies for 40k also.)

Move on m8 as regardless of what happened at the tournament you were not good enough. Yes, maybe you were carrying an injury, maybe your favourite pokemon card got lost that morning, maybe you had a ladder in your tights. All those excuses are valid as to why you werent good enough on the day but one thing for sure is that some 13 year old kid (that everyone else says sucks anyway) was not the reason for your failure.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Corrode wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

Happily your personal feelings don't matter at all because within the context of most tournaments changing your list from game to game is actually against the rules, hence the problem presented by the OP. On top of that the kid actually isn't within the points limit because he presents a legal list to an opponent and then uses upgrades which are not on it.

I'm getting the strong impression you're a casual player who doesn't participate in competitive games - that's fine, more power to you, I'm sure you're having fun. Just like how you probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you to optimise this and replace X because Y is strictly better, though, nobody wants to hear what you think is appropriate for tournament play when you don't participate yourself.

Yeh you are 100% correct. Well almost.
I have a couple of tournaments coming up. One this saturday and shifts allowing one at the start of October.
So i guess you really havent a clue what your on about.

As for rules.......
A wise man once said "Rules are for wise men to use as guidelines and fools to follow".
Not that hard to see where you fall in.

Cool, don't suppose one is Starsmash is it? Or Warrington?

I'm sure you feel super cool with the old RULES ARE GUIDELINEs thing but they're there for a reason and I'm sure nobody involved in the tournament as either an attendee or an organiser would appreciate you feeling like they don't apply to you because THEY'RE GUIDELINES, MAN. Mutually agreeing in a friendly game to change something? Fire away. Breaking the rules to your own advantage because IT'S ONLY A GUIDELINE? That makes you a gakker, sorry buddy.

<text redacted>

Maybe a mod should lock this thread.
<maybe posters shouldn't try to bypass the swear filter --Janthkin>

Also, this kind of behavior happens all the time and its not just 13 year old kids that do it. For example, look at Reggie Bush with the Heisman Trophy. He won it and had it taken back from him. The runner up did not win the trophy by default. Same with USC's National Title being vacated. The second place team does not become the champion after the fact. It sucks but you need to be a man about it and move on. If you can't, you're no better than the cheating 13 year old kid you're throwing internet stones at.

Kid cheats
Gets called
TO penalises him

Nope? I can't see the OP doing any of the things you suggest GBDA.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, you appear to just want to be pointlessly rude to the bloke.

I would dearly love to see what your response would be to such an individual as "the kid".

Corrode wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Corrode wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

Happily your personal feelings don't matter at all because within the context of most tournaments changing your list from game to game is actually against the rules, hence the problem presented by the OP. On top of that the kid actually isn't within the points limit because he presents a legal list to an opponent and then uses upgrades which are not on it.

I'm getting the strong impression you're a casual player who doesn't participate in competitive games - that's fine, more power to you, I'm sure you're having fun. Just like how you probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you to optimise this and replace X because Y is strictly better, though, nobody wants to hear what you think is appropriate for tournament play when you don't participate yourself.

Yeh you are 100% correct. Well almost.
I have a couple of tournaments coming up. One this saturday and shifts allowing one at the start of October.
So i guess you really havent a clue what your on about.

As for rules.......
A wise man once said "Rules are for wise men to use as guidelines and fools to follow".
Not that hard to see where you fall in.

Cool, don't suppose one is Starsmash is it? Or Warrington?

I'm sure you feel super cool with the old RULES ARE GUIDELINEs thing but they're there for a reason and I'm sure nobody involved in the tournament as either an attendee or an organiser would appreciate you feeling like they don't apply to you because THEY'RE GUIDELINES, MAN. Mutually agreeing in a friendly game to change something? Fire away. Breaking the rules to your own advantage because IT'S ONLY A GUIDELINE? That makes you a gakker, sorry buddy.

Its you thats the gakker moron.
fething read what i said and understand it before you try and twist it.
Every tournament you attend has their own rules that are adapted from the rule book or army books and that is where the "guidelines" part comes in as fine you knew it.

<enough; it appears we're not mature enough to discuss this issue>