So as I was reading I came up with the following question: Is a Greater Daemon stronger than a Prince-elevated Primarch? Or are they the same in power?

To better illustrate this: Lets assume one of the Primarch's (your choice) gets to battle a Greater Daemon of (insert chaos god here) ?

I think it would be pretty close...

Bobakos wrote:So as I was reading I came up with the following question: Is a Greater Daemon stronger than a Prince-elevated Primarch? Or are they the same in power?

To better illustrate this: Lets assume one of the Primarch's (your choice) gets to battle a Greater Daemon of (insert chaos god here) ?

I think it would be pretty close...

Daemon Primarchs command Greater Daemons like lieutenants, they are far stronger. They rivaled them as "mere" Primarchs, as Daemon Princes they are stronger.

Hell, some Primarchs were stronger than Greater Daemons before ascension.

I would say that a primarch would be more powerful. Afterall Angron had all those bloodthirsters working for him before he got booted back to the warp and with the way khorne seems to work if he was weaker than any of them he wouldn't have been fit to lead them in the first place. It also might vary from primarch to primarch. Magnus would obviously beat one as he was so powerful, but someone like Lorgar who admitted he wasn't much of a fighter in the novel first heretic(he got his handed to him by corax and the only reason he survived was thanks to Curze swooping in last minute and saving him. As far as loyalists Sanguinius killed that one greater demon at the siege of terra.

Funny, I have this thought in my head (that I read somewhere, lexi maybe) Greater Daemons are far stronger than human elevated daemon princes due to them being full daemon instead of ''half'' daemon, probably kabanda or skarbrand would be a good example.

Skarbrand was (and maybe still is) the absolute strongest of Khorne's Bloodthristers, so he could be a bad example of the average Greater Daemon.


It prolly is true that the Average Greater Daemon is stronger than the Average Daemon Prince, but the Primarchs are a whole new ballgame. The Primarch Daemon Princes I would say are much stronger than the Average Greater Daemon, maybe even Stronger( or atleast on par) with each Chaos God's Biggest, baddest Greater Daemon.

Conservationist wrote:Funny, I have this thought in my head (that I read somewhere, lexi maybe) Greater Daemons are far stronger than human elevated daemon princes due to them being full daemon instead of ''half'' daemon, probably kabanda or skarbrand would be a good example.

The difference is primarchs aren't human. Primarchs were already able to defeat a greater daemon when they were just primarchs. Once elevated to daemon primarch, they became far more powerful.

Conservationist wrote:Funny, I have this thought in my head (that I read somewhere, lexi maybe) Greater Daemons are far stronger than human elevated daemon princes due to them being full daemon instead of ''half'' daemon, probably kabanda or skarbrand would be a good example.

This what I read myself, and that is why I had this question. It is not specified anywhere or for that fact not even mentioned...

-Loki- wrote:The difference is primarchs aren't human. Primarchs were already able to defeat a greater daemon when they were just primarchs. Once elevated to daemon primarch, they became far more powerful.

Since the average Greater Daemon can defeat the average Demon Prince, then by this we can assume that a greater-than-average Greater Daemon can defeat a Primarch???

i.e. Angron vs Skarbrand

I am still kinda confused

Fulgrim almost died but ultimately prevailed in battle against an Avatar of Khaine.
Those Avatars are roughly comparable to Greater Daemons.
I therefore think that primarchs and greater daemons are also roughly comparable.

I think a Primarch could kill most of the Greater Daemons except the Lord of Change simply because it can see the future.

Primarchs win IMO, they were doing it before being elevated, now they pretty much are the top brass.

No contest - Primarch hands down.

I mean: a Grey Knights can handle them without a problem.

Before they fell to chaos most Primarchs could at least go toe to toe with a greater demon. Most of them had beaten a greater demon before at some point too normally.

The emperor had made the primarchs to be of comparable power to himself. Hence why they were so awesome. This is also why the chaos bless Horus was able to fight the Emperor on an almost even footing.

With the chaos primarchs gaining the blessing and favor of chaos they only got stronger. If the demon prince primarchs ever actually did something the imperium would be in for trouble.

With regards to demons like Skarbrand, I think the demon prince primarchs would be able to win, but it would be close.

Brother Coa wrote:No contest - Primarch hands down.

I mean: a Grey Knights can handle them without a problem.

Grey Knights really aren't a good example, since they frequently know the True Names of these creatures, as well as having specialized defenses and attacks to deal with them.

"Greater Daemon" and "Lesser Daemon" are extremely broad classes of daemon.
There are daemons in the warp that far exceed the Daemon-Primarchs in age and power. The Daemon Codex says as much.

A daemon primarch can easily defeat most Greater Daemons. There's a reason that the daemon primarchs aren't used in the game, after all. Of course, there is the occasional millenia-old Greater daemon which could cut a primarch to pieces, but there's probably only one or two.

Considering primarchs can already stand toe to toe with Greater demons even when they haven't become Daemon princes, greater demons wouldn't stand a chance against them when they've already been elevated to daemon prince form.

In general, yes, but there's always insanely strong ancient daemons.

Remember that the Gods can do whatever they want in their realm and they are the ones that bestow the amount of power daemon princes will weild. Primarchs were elevated to daemonhood as a reward for what they have done and they are amongst the most powerful surely. But not because they were Primarchs before they are now obber mega monsters. Angron is stated to become an uber mega monster but it seems Magnus is not the case for instance.

In many cases the gods grant daemonhood to rather "unexceptional" individuals just because they wanted to and in other occasions they have made other more worthy people to go the long road to achieve daemonhood for them to find they are not stronger than other daemon princess.

Normally, Daemon Princes seem to be subordinate to Greater Daemons:




May be different with Primarchs though.

Omegus wrote:
Grey Knights really aren't a good example, since they frequently know the True Names of these creatures, as well as having specialized defenses and attacks to deal with them.

They are - because Primarchs are more powerful then they in every way. ( well maybe except corruption )

Brother Coa wrote:

Omegus wrote:
Grey Knights really aren't a good example, since they frequently know the True Names of these creatures, as well as having specialized defenses and attacks to deal with them.

They are - because Primarchs are more powerful then they in every way. ( well maybe except corruption )

Unless that Grey Knight's name is Draigo.


Then he would beat up all the primarchs. At once.

The Daemon-Primarchs and the Greater Daemons are very different in strength. If they were to fight, that area would crumble and shatter.
But, remember, the Primarchs Were near gods in their own right, and that was before the ascension. The Chaos Gods would probably step in before the fight got too far. After all, The Gods do need their champions.

There's a simple test: have you ever seem a Lord of Change rip a titan in half or fire a lascannon out of its eye? No? Then it's not as strong as Magnus.

Have you ever heard of a Keeper of Secrets killing a primarch? If not, it's weaker than Fulgrim.

Has a Bloodthirster ever killed 100 Grey Knights at once? Angron beats them if not.

Has a Great Unclean One ever... actually, they probably beat Mortarion easily.

Brother Coa wrote:

Omegus wrote:
Grey Knights really aren't a good example, since they frequently know the True Names of these creatures, as well as having specialized defenses and attacks to deal with them.

They are - because Primarchs are more powerful then they in every way. ( well maybe except corruption )

Did you read what he posted? At all? Grey Knights are the most elite force the Imperium has at its disposal, literally everything about them is modified to make them better at fighting Daemons.

Durza wrote:Has a Bloodthirster ever killed 100 Grey Knights at once? Angron beats them if not.

Angron kind of had help from 12 Bloodthirsters to do that, actually.

Lets say we were even talking about pre heresy primarch's

i say if one primarch could destroy dozens of SM then they were naturally stronger than Greater deamons

just a thought

The Primarchs were essentially just the greatest ever because that is what they were created to be

No contest, Leman Russ wins.

Sanguinius eats greater daemons for breakfast.

Or he would... if he weren't dead.

1: Exalted Greater Daemons could probably beat a none acceded Primarch

2: 'Normal' Greater Daemons cannot be compared to Primarchs

3: The Grey Knights have one advantage that lets them fight Greater Daemons, the names of the Daemons. The Primachs did not have such Knowledge

4: The Primarch's that battled Greater Daemons may not have survived if the Gods of Chaos had not stopped their servants from doing so

5: The first time Angel boy fought a Greater Daemon, he had his ass handed to him

rockerbikie wrote:No contest, Leman Russ wins.

You're posting in the wrong thread. And there is no category in which Leman Russ wins.

@OP: Members like Harriticus are on the ball. Duels between each could go either way depending on how powerful the Greater Daemon in question is. On average, low-level Chaos GD's will eventually get slapped down after an intense and tedious duel but the most exalted daemons would likely be victorious. The ruleset for both DP Angron and FW's Greater Daemons is a strong testament to the power levels involved. TF also have a good set of makeshift rules for Primarchs too.

Omegus wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:No contest, Leman Russ wins.

You're posting in the wrong thread. And there is no category in which Leman Russ wins.

You are trying to troll me and it's making me laugh.

rockerbikie wrote:

Omegus wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:No contest, Leman Russ wins.

You're posting in the wrong thread. And there is no category in which Leman Russ wins.

You are trying to troll me and it's making me laugh.

Your relentless fanboy Crusade is hilarious.

Durza wrote:Or he would... if he weren't dead.

He did during his lifetime
And the second time Ka'Bandha shows up, Sanguinius kicks his ass.

So he's killed one Greater Daemon. It's not much of a breakfast.

It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

As of current fluff, Ka'Bhanda is apparently the strongest Bloodthirster.

And in their second fight, Ka'Bhanda managed to sneak attack Sanguinius, casting him to the ground, and Sanguinius still broke his back.

So apparently Sanguinius, who Corax seems to believe is probably weaker than Angron, bested the strongest Bloodthirster, despite being caught off guard.

I am just saying.

Primarch! No Contest!

FuryTheBerserker wrote:Primarch! No Contest!

You give no reason, there is allot of contest.

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

The first time he was tricked by Horus to be ambushed and probably had no idea what a daemon is.
Even after he's dead, Sanguinor defeated Ka'Banda once again!

rockerbikie wrote:

Omegus wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:No contest, Leman Russ wins.

You're posting in the wrong thread. And there is no category in which Leman Russ wins.

You are trying to troll me and it's making me laugh.

Careful, accusations of trolling are a good way to get suspended around here.

More specifically, how am I trolling? You ARE posting in the wrong thread, since we're discussing Primarchs vs. Greater Daemons in general. Since Leman Russ never fought a GD, how is he relevant? But hey, I'll play along. Let's look at a few categories and try to find one where he would be considered "the best".

Best politician? Hardly, he's constantly picking fights with his brothers.
Best tactician/strategist? Far from it, Space Wolves mostly just lope over there and hit things with their axes.
Best logistician/administrator? He probably doesn't even know what those words mean.
Best scholar/intellectual? His idea of a good use for a library is burning it to the ground.
Best psyker? The extent of his psychic abilities is yelling really loud and annoying other psykers.

Best warrior? Ah, finally a category where he may have a shot. Except, of course, he and the Lion fought on even ground, Kurze beat the Lion, Kurze and Corax were evenly matched, and Corax considered Horus, Angron and Sanguinius to be better fighters than him. So at best, he comes in at number 6, sharing a spot with the Lion.

So again, I ask you, how am I trolling?

Russ would win the drinking contest lol!

If you want to know who is more powerful, I say the Primarch. If you want to know who would win in an opposition of some form, I think that some greater daemons could beat the Traitor Primarchs, since the Chaos Primarchs have the tactical smarts of a Girl Scout troop.

Jackster wrote:Russ would win the drinking contest lol!

Damn, you got me on that one. As the Emperor said, he is the best glutton and drunk.

I stand corrected, Russ wins after all.

well im pretty sure angle boy picked up a bloodthirster and broke his back so...

plus going by the 40k rules where people like lysandar or vulkan would have a chance of winning
And they are like 100 times worse than a primarch...

iproxtaco wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

Omegus wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:No contest, Leman Russ wins.

You're posting in the wrong thread. And there is no category in which Leman Russ wins.

You are trying to troll me and it's making me laugh.

Your relentless fanboy Crusade is hilarious.

I pitted my Primarch against a Greator Daemons and you cried about it. I don't think that is a relentless fanboy Crusade. I also like other things than Space Wolves like Wood Elves, White Scars and Red Corsairs but you obviously have your Pious Elitist attiude.

Humbaba wrote:well im pretty sure angle boy picked up a bloodthirster and broke his back so...

plus going by the 40k rules where people like lysandar or vulkan would have a chance of winning
And they are like 100 times worse than a primarch...

Angle boy was trashed the first time he met the Bloodthirster. Taking 40k rules is possible but not particularly exact.
Still, if you wish to take 40k rules then let's have a look at the only daemon primarch which has any rules at all, Angron.
While Angron's stats are slightly better ( +1 more Str, W, I and attack ) the difference isn't that great.
As a mortal Angron would have probably been weaker than as a daemonprimarch so i doubt that 30k Angron's tabletop
stats would be higher than those of a Bloodthirster.

rockerbikie wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

Omegus wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:No contest, Leman Russ wins.

You're posting in the wrong thread. And there is no category in which Leman Russ wins.

You are trying to troll me and it's making me laugh.

Your relentless fanboy Crusade is hilarious.

I pitted my Primarch against a Greator Daemons and you cried about it. I don't think that is a relentless fanboy Crusade. I also like other things than Space Wolves like Wood Elves, White Scars and Red Corsairs but you obviously have your Pious Elitist attiude.

In your latest sojourn from the Chain Fiction subforum, all you've done is moan about people's grammar and how your Space Wolves are "misunderstood". Or, this unseasoned drivel. You're a fanboy, no problem, I really like the Word Bearers. It'd be fine if you actually posted a reason why Leman Russ would beat a Greater Daemon because so far, thanks to Omegus, things aren't looking so great.

Humbaba wrote:well im pretty sure angle boy picked up a bloodthirster and broke his back so...

plus going by the 40k rules where people like lysandar or vulkan would have a chance of winning
And they are like 100 times worse than a primarch...

I don't know who angle boy is, but Sanguinus was beat by the strongest, it's name escapes me, blood thirster in their first fight. He then wins the second fight while simultaneously fighting off the hordes of Chaos. Whether it was written by different authors or not I don't know, but I would take them as being evenly matched as both are 1-1. Considering said blood thirster was said to be the strongest would tell me that and average one would stand less of a chance.

KingDeath wrote:Angle boy was trashed the first time he met the Bloodthirster. Taking 40k rules is possible but not particularly exact.
Still, if you wish to take 40k rules then let's have a look at the only daemon primarch which has any rules at all, Angron.
While Angron's stats are slightly better ( +1 more Str, W, I and attack ) the difference isn't that great.
As a mortal Angron would have probably been weaker than as a daemonprimarch so i doubt that 30k Angron's tabletop
stats would be higher than those of a Bloodthirster.

Since Sanguinius broke the back of the strongest of Khorne's Bloodthirsters and Corax seems to believe Angron is even mightier than Sanguinius in martial combat, the WD stats seem inaccurate.

Void__Dragon wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Angle boy was trashed the first time he met the Bloodthirster. Taking 40k rules is possible but not particularly exact.
Still, if you wish to take 40k rules then let's have a look at the only daemon primarch which has any rules at all, Angron.
While Angron's stats are slightly better ( +1 more Str, W, I and attack ) the difference isn't that great.
As a mortal Angron would have probably been weaker than as a daemonprimarch so i doubt that 30k Angron's tabletop
stats would be higher than those of a Bloodthirster.

Since Sanguinius broke the back of the strongest of Khorne's Bloodthirsters and Corax seems to believe Angron is even mightier than Sanguinius in martial combat, the WD stats seem inaccurate.

The strongest Bloodthirster so far encountered by the Imperium of Man is Angrath the Unbound. Ka'bandha, certainly a mighty bloodthirster but not the greatest, actually managed to best Sanguinius on
Signus Prime but, for some perverse reason, didn't finish him of. The angelic primarch got his revenge on terra so i certainly think that both were more or less evenly matched, one being victorious at Signus and the other at the siege of Terra.

I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch.

I think it's interesting that this is actually even being debated, in usual super hero vs. super hero fights you try and compare feats to keep fanboyism to a minimum.

There are a few good examples of Primarch vs. Greater Daemon, Sanguinius vs. Ka'Bandha, the absolute strongest Bloodthirster against a Primarch in the top 3 (In Corax's opinion) of Martial Prowess. Basically a tie, they each beat each other once with Sanguinius actually finishing the Job when the game was on the line.

Fulgrim vs. Avatar, Medium ranking Primarch as far as battle goes vs. a watered down greater daemon and he essentially wipes the floor with him.

So as mere mortals I the Primarch's were equals of Greater Daemons, and then you infuse them with the exact same power that makes Greater Daemons special? its like asking who would win if Superman fought Green Lantern but Superman gets a Green Lantern ring.

The reason this thread was started because in another thread about Primarchs, a particular forum troll/'tard claimed that not only are Primarchs inferior to Daemon Princes, but that even Daemon Primarchs serve GDs.

KingDeath wrote:The strongest Bloodthirster so far encountered by the Imperium of Man is Angrath the Unbound. Ka'bandha, certainly a mighty bloodthirster but not the greatest, actually managed to best Sanguinius on
Signus Prime but, for some perverse reason, didn't finish him of. The angelic primarch got his revenge on terra so i certainly think that both were more or less evenly matched, one being victorious at Signus and the other at the siege of Terra.

As of current fluff, Ka'Bhanda is the strongest Bloodthirster, as said in both the Blood Angels and Grey Knights codices.

Ka'Bhanda did beat Sanguinius when they first fought, but the second time they did, even with a sneak attack from Ka'Bhanda, Sanguinius crushed him. Even or not, that's still merely "one of" the strongest Primarchs in martial combat vs. the strongest Bloodthirster.

Omegus wrote:The reason this thread was started because in another thread about Primarchs, a particular forum troll/'tard claimed that not only are Primarchs inferior to Daemon Princes, but that even Daemon Primarchs serve GDs.

Actually this thread was started cause I am full of questions But thank's to all of you now I got a hang of the opinions that are roaming around. My personal opinion is that a non-accended Primarch comes on a tie with a GD (just as the Sanguinus example). Like in all rules there are exceptions (i.e. Angron). Finally as far as I understand it, Primarch DP can pretty much wipe the floor of any GD except maybe some of the older ones...

Thank you all for clearing my head a bit

Cheers

Omegus wrote:The reason this thread was started because in another thread about Primarchs, a particular forum troll/'tard claimed that not only are Primarchs inferior to Daemon Princes, but that even Daemon Primarchs serve GDs.

Using the quote Harriticus provided on the first page of the thread it's not hard to see why he believed that. Further still, comparing Angron's official rules to An'ggrath's kinda provides some perspective on how powerful a GD can actually be at the top. Run those two against each other and the Primarch won't be coming out on top most of the time. Of course, if strength/rules were all that mattered then characters like Hector Rex would be curb-stomped very quickly. Plot armour beats all.

Void__Dragon wrote:

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

As of current fluff, Ka'Bhanda is apparently the strongest Bloodthirster.

And in their second fight, Ka'Bhanda managed to sneak attack Sanguinius, casting him to the ground, and Sanguinius still broke his back.

So apparently Sanguinius, who Corax seems to believe is probably weaker than Angron, bested the strongest Bloodthirster, despite being caught off guard.

I am just saying.

And all this after holding the gate alone for hours.

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

Must....resist.....proving.............otherwise.........

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

He beat a Daemon Primarch.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

He beat a Daemon Primarch.

Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

Daemon Primarchs. Are. DAEMONS! Now isn't that a twist and a half?

iproxtaco wrote:Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

I'm not sure what makes you think all of those daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

An'ggrath and Ka'Bhanda are the only ones who I could see one reasonably assuming may be stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

I wasn't aware Daemon Primarchs aren't particularly strong Daemons.

Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

Your logic is faulty. That puts them at a 1-1 split. So based on that data alone, Sanguinius was equal to the most powerful Greater Daemon of Khorne.

Void__Dragon wrote:When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

He didn't. He beat Skarbrand on his own, reportedly with a single strike.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

I'm not sure what makes you think all of those daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

An'ggrath and Ka'Bhanda are the only ones who I could see one reasonably assuming may be stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

I wasn't aware Daemon Primarchs aren't particularly strong Daemons.

Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

The Daemon primarchs are strong, but Mortarion certainly wasn't one of the strongest among them. And he had just been battling another Grand Master, which, unless that Grand Master was a wimp, would have weakened him considerably.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

I'm not sure what makes you think all of those daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

An'ggrath and Ka'Bhanda are the only ones who I could see one reasonably assuming may be stronger.

He beat Skarbrand with a single strike. Yes that's right, a Chapter Master managed to one hit one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, but no cares about that.

Skarbrand is one of the most powerful Bloodthirsters. Bloodthirsters are the strongest Greater Daemons. Ku'gath is one of the strongest Great Unclean Ones. He may or may not be stronger than Mortarion, but I wouldn't have thought there would be a huge difference. Besides, it was the fact that a lone Justicar took out one of the named Great Unclean Ones that has it's one stats.

Durza wrote:My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

I wasn't aware Daemon Primarchs aren't particularly strong Daemons.

Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

I don't think anyone us assuming Mortarion was a wimp. Simply, that there are numerous other cases of single warriors taking out other similar Daemons, some which are more powerful than a weakened Mortarion.

Regarding Dante vs Skarbrand: Isn't the whole point of the paragraph to suggest that the 'split in twine' part is just a rumour that's happily getting out of hand?

Otherwise agreed. Skarbrand (S8) is slightly stronger than DP Angron (S7) in the classic sense. So it's just as likely that he's stronger than Mortarion too.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

Trollin for a Lollin? Brilliant.

Game wise, 'stronger' would most likely mean WS, S, T, I and W. Most stats used in combat.

Void__Dragon wrote:Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

They are drawing the wrong conclusion from the story. The goal of the story is not to make Mortarion look weaker than a marine, but rather to make Draigo look stronger than a primarch. Unfortunately, the Mary Sue-induced cognitive dissonance is insurmountable for some. Thus all the rationalizations - "it's logical to assume that Mortarion was weakened/surprised/etc" - some of which have now, in the minds of many, been seemingly elevated to the status of canon despite not being backed up by any actual written words in the source material. Draigo is stronger than a primarch. It's canon. Get over it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

They are drawing the wrong conclusion from the story. The goal of the story is not to make Mortarion look weaker than a marine, but rather to make Draigo look stronger than a primarch. Unfortunately, the Mary Sue-induced cognitive dissonance is insurmountable for some. Thus all the rationalizations - "it's logical to assume that Mortarion was weakened/surprised/etc" - some of which have now, in the minds of many, been seemingly elevated to the status of canon despite not being backed up by any actual written words in the source material. Draigo is stronger than a primarch. It's canon. Get over it.

But which Primarch? Fulgrim has killed two Primarchs, Guilliman has killed one, it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron, and even regular Marines have taken out much harder targets than Mortarion, and Horus was the best of all the Primarchs.
Draigo is not stronger than "a primarch". Get over yourself.

I'm not sure I understand your line of argument.

iproxtaco wrote:Fulgrim has killed two Primarchs, Guilliman has killed one...

So your argument is that a primarch is as strong as a primarch? This is obviously true, but what does this have to do with Draigo?

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

...and even regular Marines have taken out much harder targets than Mortarion...

So now you're arguing that Mortarion is weaker than a regular marine? That doesn't seem right, but I suppose it could be true. Specifically, which "regular marines" and "harder targets" are you referring to here?

...and Horus was the best of all the Primarchs.

Relevance?

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

There are 18 Primarchs of varying power and capability. Draigo is greater than "a Primarch", apparently. Which Primarch? That was my original question.
My point though, was that if you're going to rate Draigo, he's beneath Dante, Justicar Thawn, Hector Rex, and Fulgrim, who was beneath Sanguinus, Angron, and Horus.

*Edit*

Redacted for misrememberification.

We've got stats for both Angron the daemon prince and Bloodthirsters. Angron is slightly better, but not enough to vote for anything except Tie if they were fighting each other.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So now you're arguing that Mortarion is weaker than a regular marine? That doesn't seem right, but I suppose it could be true. Specifically, which "regular marines" and "harder targets" are you referring to here?

The power of creatures is not as simple as you seem to think. An elephant is vastly stronger than a man, but with a big enough gun a man will kill an elephant. In some ways, a leopard is stronger than a person, but an adult man can still kill one bare-handed. Yet, a leopard could also kill a man in different circumstances. In 40K, it's fairly for large creatures to be taken down by smaller opponents since the large creatures sometimes struggle to fight such small targets that are close. That doesn't mean that they are less powerful than their opponent.

Also, as Durza pointed out, Mortarion had just been fighting another Grey Knight. Unless you choose to believe that the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights was absolutely powerless before Mortarion, Mortarion would have expended energy in killing him.

Dash2021 wrote:Not sure where people are saying that Mortarion was weakened prior to the fight with Draigo. IIRC, the lone sentence in the fluff just says he carved his predisessor's name in Mortarion's heart, without going into much detail. I believe the predisessor thing only pertains to the first time he beat the greater demon. Granted, I only read the story once due to Mary-sueness overload.

Mortarion had just killed the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, which would require energy at the least, and possibly have caused him injury already.

Point is, Draigo didn't just beat a primarch, he beat a demon-prince primarch, and not in the material realm, but in the warp. And not just in the warp, but on the demon prince primarch's own planet in the warp (this part I'm not at all confident I remember from the story, but heck, w

hy not). Point is that yes, Draigo is stronger than at least one demon prince primarch....according to awfully written mary-sue fluff.

Dash2021 wrote:Not sure where people are saying that Mortarion was weakened prior to the fight with Draigo. IIRC, the lone sentence in the fluff just says he carved his predisessor's name in Mortarion's heart, without going into much detail. I believe the predisessor thing only pertains to the first time he beat the greater demon. Granted, I only read the story once due to Mary-sueness overload.

Point is, Draigo didn't just beat a primarch, he beat a demon-prince primarch, and not in the material realm, but in the warp. And not just in the warp, but on the demon prince primarch's own planet in the warp (this part I'm not at all confident I remember from the story, but heck, why not). Point is that yes, Draigo is stronger than at least one demon prince primarch....according to awfully written mary-sue fluff.

*Edit*

Also, assuming the primarch's (and hence demon prince primarchs) are roughly equal in power, this also means Draigo is stronger than the primarchs, as demon prince Fulgrim killed Gulliman. So yea, Draigo > a primarch as well...

It's that part where Mortarion had not long finished killing the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Unless you're sitting in stubborn ignorance, Mortarion was quite obviously not just arrived from a two week vacation on the Canary Islands.

Yeah, and Draigo is a Grey Knight. You know what they do? They spend their time killing Daemons, it's what they're good at. It was also not in the Warp and not on Mortarion's planet.

Your assumption is wrong.

iproxtaco wrote: It's that part where Mortarion had not long finished killing the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Unless you're sitting in stubborn ignorance, Mortarion was quite obviously not just arrived from a two week vacation on the Canary Islands.

Yeah, and Draigo is a Grey Knight. You know what they do? They spend their time killing Daemons, it's what they're good at. It was also not in the Warp and not on Mortarion's planet.

Your assumption is wrong.

Quite right. Just re-read the fluff piece, and I was thinking the Mortarion encounter was after he had been banished to the warp, not before. Completely changes the context of the story around.

Must have been a bias against GK fluff from the codex tainting my recollection.

My apologies if I seemed sharp, long-term exposure to Mat Ward's dreadful execution of fairly decent fluff ideas increases cases of sarcasm by up to 50%.

No worries, completely understandable. GK are going to be the whipping boy/butt end of jokes for a while thanks to Mr. Ward's " I know space marines are cool, but these GK guys are the most awesomester." approach to writing their fluff. No reason for me to get bad fluff wrong though!

Also, here's hopping that Ward does the Eldar Codex when they get around to it. Jump pack Wraithguard with 3 attacks base, and wraith-cannons all at 10 points? Yes please.

/end thread derail

Gotta go with DP-Primarch, generally speaking. Assuming their "ascension" increases their power in a manner similar to the increase in power mortals experience, the primarch's should be more powerful than all but the oldest Greater Demons. But then again, as several people have pointed out, power is a relative term. The frame of reference would likely have more impact on the confrontation than anything else.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I'm not sure I understand your line of argument.

iproxtaco wrote:Fulgrim has killed two Primarchs, Guilliman has killed one...

So your argument is that a primarch is as strong as a primarch? This is obviously true, but what does this have to do with Draigo?

Assumedly, the argument is that the primarchs differed in power level, and that Draigo could beat one certainly doesn't mean he can beat them all.

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

...and even regular Marines have taken out much harder targets than Mortarion...

So now you're arguing that Mortarion is weaker than a regular marine? That doesn't seem right, but I suppose it could be true. Specifically, which "regular marines" and "harder targets" are you referring to here?

One of the Blood Angels has killed the daemon Sanguinius fought, IIRC.

...and Horus was the best of all the Primarchs.

Relevance?

That not all primarchs are equal.

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

Ignoring the physical impossibility that Draigo could do this, is doesn't really show he's any better at fighting than primarchs, just that he can pin people under the weight of his plot armour.

iproxtaco wrote:He beat Skarbrand with a single strike. Yes that's right, a Chapter Master managed to one hit one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, but no cares about that.

In principal I'm not bothered by Draigo beating Mortarion. It's just the execution that was... Lame.

Also, single strike?

The text just says he close Skarbrand in two, that's it. I for some reason doubt Dante just hulked out at the start of the fight and cut Skarbrand in half.

Skarbrand is one of the most powerful Bloodthirsters. Bloodthirsters are the strongest Greater Daemons. Ku'gath is one of the strongest Great Unclean Ones. He may or may not be stronger than Mortarion, but I wouldn't have thought there would be a huge difference. Besides, it was the fact that a lone Justicar took out one of the named Great Unclean Ones that has it's one stats.

Bloodthirsters are the strongest Greater Daemons in physical combat, not necessarily overall. Lords of Change would be hopeless in a brawl with a Greater Daemon, but its incredibly powerful sorcery makes it just as dangerous (Though some Bloodthirsters may be able to cancel said sorcery out, against other opponents the lethality would be similar. Same with Great Unclean Ones and Keepers of Secrets, really).

Thawn is kind of an exceptional case though, since, you know, he's a melon-fething Highlander. He can't die. Were it just about anyone but Thawn, they would have died after being eaten by a Great Unclean One, let alone Ku'gath. Generally Great Unclean Ones don't expect to be blown open from the inside by the guy they just ate.

I don't think anyone us assuming Mortarion was a wimp. Simply, that there are numerous other cases of single warriors taking out other similar Daemons, some which are more powerful than a weakened Mortarion.

As you said, it is the execution that makes it not a very cool thing.

That said, you are right, just because Draigo beat Mortarion, doesn't imply he could defeat, say, Magnus the Red, or Angron, in single combat.

I don't know if Skarbrand is really one of the strongest Bloodthirsters. Before he got crushed like a grape by Khorne, and then exiled maybe, but not after. And the description of that battle is basically "he beat him" with no context given. Hardly similar to Draigo curb-stomping a Primarch and carving his boyfriend's name into his heart.

As Void Dragon pointed out, Thrawn didn't exactly defeat the GUO. He lost, horribly, but due to being Jesus or whatever, came back to life inside the GUO and blew out his guts.

Void__Dragon wrote:That said, you are right, just because Draigo beat Mortarion, doesn't imply he could defeat, say, Magnus the Red, or Angron, in single combat.

Yet the text implies that even the Chaos Gods can't do anything about him, and he routinely punks Greater Daemons in the Warp (ya know, where they are at 100% power and can't be banished).

Omegus wrote:I don't know if Skarbrand is really one of the strongest Bloodthirsters. Before he got crushed like a grape by Khorne, and then exiled maybe, but not after. And the description of that battle is basically "he beat him" with no context given. Hardly similar to Draigo curb-stomping a Primarch and carving his boyfriend's name into his heart.

Well, I would say Skarbrand is stronger than average. On par with An'ggrath or Ka'Bhanda? Nah. An'ggrath in particular is stated to be better in every way.

Yet the text implies that even the Chaos Gods can't do anything about him, and he routinely punks Greater Daemons in the Warp (ya know, where they are at 100% power and can't be banished).

Ugh. You're right. I was trying to sort of kind of justify Draigo's crap, but the text does make it clear: Chaos can't do gak about Draigo. All the speculation that the Gods allow him to do this for lulz is just that, speculation, and actually contradictory to the actual text. Since it directly states he is immune to the will of the Chaos Gods.

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

Ignoring the physical impossibility that Draigo could do this, is doesn't really show he's any better at fighting than primarchs, just that he can pin people under the weight of his plot armour.

How is it physically impossible? The fact that he did it shows that it is possible.

It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

That's a nice completely unfounded claim there. Angron is stronger than the average daemon. And he doesn't need lunch money, because the cooks are afraid of him.

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

Ignoring the physical impossibility that Draigo could do this, is doesn't really show he's any better at fighting than primarchs, just that he can pin people under the weight of his plot armour.

How is it physically impossible? The fact that he did it shows that it is possible.

DarknessEternal wrote:It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Yeah no.

Angron was kicking Brother Captain ass until the remaining Grey Knights, IIRC there were three dozen left, combined all their power and issued forth an attack stronger than the sum of its parts.

This stunned Angron, sheer willpower preventing him from fading completely, but allowed the Brother Captain to behead him while Angron was defenseless.

Durza wrote:
Mortarion, being bigger than Space Marines to start with, was bloated by Nurgle's power. Unless Draigo weights ten tons, it makes no sense that Mortarion couldn't just roll him off. Then again, nothin Draigo related makes sense.

Mortarion was already dead at the time.

Daemons still leave physical bodies in the materium when you kill them here.

DarknessEternal wrote:It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Well, obviously it only took one. It just took 95 others to immobilise him to a point where killing him was possible.

I don't think Mortarion went all bloated and fat like a normal Great Unclean One. I think he went skeletal, since he was always skinny anyway...



Wouldn't wanna meet him in a dark alley.

I think daemonhood made the Primarches stronger in some ways but also made them weaker. In the warp, they're power is much, much, much greater than it once was but in real space, I think they've actually been weakened. Daemonhood gives them the obvious Achilles Heel of being bound to the warp, unable to exist long without a strong connection to it (Like the temples Angron tried to maintain on Armageddon). Also, true names? Woops, we know your birth names Primarches, sorry. Just the holy presence of a Grey Knight hurts a daemon.

I think a flesh and blood Primarch, like, say, Russ or Vulkan could smear Draigo into a bloody paste since he can't just kick them in the nuts with his intimate knowledge of daemons. Oh, and also the Emperor wouldn't have his back either.

BrainDeleted wrote:I don't think Mortarion went all bloated and fat like a normal Great Unclean One. I think he went skeletal, since he was always skinny anyway...

He did.

He stretched, grew taller, and became even more gaunt than before.

Jackster wrote:Sanguinius eats greater daemons for breakfast.

This^
Sanguinius snapped the back of a bloodthirster over his knee, and he wasn't even considered the most physically powerful of the primarchs for crying out loud! The average greater daemon, no chance in hell (or warp ) GD like skrarband? Would be a challenge indeed...

That Greater Daemon also broke Sanguinius' legs in a previous battle.

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

That's a nice completely unfounded claim there. Angron is stronger than the average daemon. And he doesn't need lunch money, because the cooks are afraid of him.

Actually it is Draigo that "cooks" are afraid of - now only the most crazed Khornate ones seek him out. Has Angron ever burned down the Garden of Nurgle or destroyed the Inevitable City? I didn't think so.

BrainDeleted wrote:I think daemonhood made the Primarches stronger in some ways but also made them weaker. In the warp, they're power is much, much, much greater than it once was but in real space, I think they've actually been weakened. Daemonhood gives them the obvious Achilles Heel of being bound to the warp, unable to exist long without a strong connection to it (Like the temples Angron tried to maintain on Armageddon).

Draigo has defeated every daemon he has come across even in the Warp where they are at 100% full power. He goes around destroying the realms of the Chaos gods ferchrissakes. I don't see how any primarch can compare.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:
Sanguinius snapped the back of a bloodthirster over his knee, and he wasn't even considered the most physically powerful of the primarchs for crying out loud!

Actually, he's the only Primarch that all of the other primarchs acknowledged as their better.

Also, when Sanquinius went to fight the big bloodthirster at the siege of Terra, everyone assumed he was going off to make a heroic sacrifice, not that he was actually going to win.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

As of current fluff, Ka'Bhanda is apparently the strongest Bloodthirster.

And in their second fight, Ka'Bhanda managed to sneak attack Sanguinius, casting him to the ground, and Sanguinius still broke his back.

So apparently Sanguinius, who Corax seems to believe is probably weaker than Angron, bested the strongest Bloodthirster, despite being caught off guard.

I am just saying.

And all this after holding the gate alone for hours.

Sanguinius certainly ate his wheaties that morning, I can tell you.

The Primarchs are the chosen warriors of the chaos gods.
You have to remember, upon becoming princes the primarchs were elevated to the point where they no longer cared about the Imperium.
Mortarion is death. Magnus is fate. Angron is war. ect...
The story of Draigo vs Morty isn't supposed to be anything new or original. It's a take on the story of Hercules wrestling Death.
Symbolic of the endless struggle man makes to prevent death from taking him.

And yes Mortarion is not bloated. He is tall and thin. The figure of death surrounded by his bloated corpse servants.

Durza wrote:That Greater Daemon also broke Sanguinius' legs in a previous battle.

That was when he was set up by Horus, at the same time probably having no idea what a daemon is.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

That's a nice completely unfounded claim there. Angron is stronger than the average daemon. And he doesn't need lunch money, because the cooks are afraid of him.

Actually it is Draigo that "cooks" are afraid of - now only the most crazed Khornate ones seek him out. Has Angron ever burned down the Garden of Nurgle or destroyed the Inevitable City? I didn't think so.

Has Draigo ever killed ninety five Grey Knights or slaughtered the population of entire planets? No, he'll only fight opponents he has an inherent advantage against.

BrainDeleted wrote:I think daemonhood made the Primarches stronger in some ways but also made them weaker. In the warp, they're power is much, much, much greater than it once was but in real space, I think they've actually been weakened. Daemonhood gives them the obvious Achilles Heel of being bound to the warp, unable to exist long without a strong connection to it (Like the temples Angron tried to maintain on Armageddon).

Draigo has defeated every daemon he has come across even in the Warp where they are at 100% full power. He goes around destroying the realms of the Chaos gods ferchrissakes. I don't see how any primarch can compare.

He's destroyed a city and a garden. They rebuilt themselves.
The primarchs have razed planets and murdered populations. I don't see how Draigo can compare.

Durza wrote:Has Draigo ever killed ninety five Grey Knights or slaughtered the population of entire planets? No, he'll only fight opponents he has an inherent advantage against.

That advantage is being able to weaken their grip on the material realm, through a combination of special techniques and knowing their true names. That shouldn't apply in the Warp proper.

He's destroyed a city and a garden. They rebuilt themselves.
The primarchs have razed planets and murdered populations. I don't see how Draigo can compare.

He destroyed a city and a garden created by CHAOS GODS inside the FRIGGIN WARP, all by his lonesome. When Primarchs "razed planets and murdered populations", they did it at the head of a Legion of space marines.

DarknessEternal wrote:Actually, he's the only Primarch that all of the other primarchs acknowledged as their better.

Funny, because Magnus was very confident he was not merely stronger than the other Primarchs, but even more powerful than the Emperor.

And Corax only thinks he "might" be able to beat Angron in martial combat, compared to Horus, who he just thought could.

When is Sanguinius ever said to be the strongest Primarch? The overall "best" (Not in terms of single combat) maybe, but even that is suspect, as many, like Dorn, readily admitted Horus was the best man for Warmaster.

Also, when Sanquinius went to fight the big bloodthirster at the siege of Terra, everyone assumed he was going off to make a heroic sacrifice, not that he was actually going to win.

Where is this from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Has Draigo ever killed ninety five Grey Knights or slaughtered the population of entire planets? No, he'll only fight opponents he has an inherent advantage against.

Tell me one other character who has defeated even an average Greater Daemon in the Warp. Let alone an incredibly powerful one like M'kaechan. Also, most advantages Grey Knights have, as Omegus said, concern banishing them to the Warp... Which is not an advantage in the Warp.

He's destroyed a city and a garden. They rebuilt themselves.
The primarchs have razed planets and murdered populations. I don't see how Draigo can compare.

At the heads of armies they did that. Hell, going by that logic, Macharius could beat up Draigo in personal combat.

Destroying the entire domain of a Chaos God, and doing so apparently regularly, even if it reforms, is something no other can claim to have done.

The Draigo stronger than the primarches argument is asinine. He would be nothing more than a bloody smear on the floor if he came against a non-Daemon Primarch or if he stumbled upon a Daemon Primarch's daemon world and fought them on their home turf where he'd have no advantage.

Quick review.

Draigo:
Size - Normal Astartes ~ 7'6"-8'
Experience - Couple hundred years of constant warfare. Standard for an Astartes who is successful
Equipment - TDA, Aegis, Titansword (Nifty Force Sword), Stormshield, Storm bolter.
Psyker - He's got three powers and he's a good psyker.
Deeds - Beat one Daemon Primarch who would have been not fighting at 100% by any measure. Beat a punching bag LoC several times. Rampages through the Warp destroying things that regenerate once he leaves.

Generic Primarch:
Size - Giant. Towers over Astartes. ~8'6"-10'?
Experience - Hundreds of years of constant warfare, the bloodiest battles the Imperium has ever fought, won the greatest victories the Imperium has ever won.
Equipment - The best stuff ever made by IoM suited to preference.
Psyker - May have no capabilities up to second only to the Emperor.
Deeds - Most have fought the Emperor and not been obliterated (Or have been). Led legions all over the galaxy crushing all comers. Many have killed other Primarches. Managed not to get stuck in the warp unless willing. Beat all manner of GD, including some of the most powerful. You name it and chances are, a Primarch has killed it barring only the God level beings in the 40k universe.

Primarches are better than all Astartes in every single way. A single Astartes could never stand against one and hope to win. Ever. Not without serious chaos support or serious Emperor support. Also, Driago has weak facial hair and bags under his eyes. Negative points to him for looking like a 70 year old man in TDA.

Edit: To above poster, he hasn't destroyed the entire domain of any chaos god. That is obvious, plainly obvious. If he met a god, he would be crushed utterly and completely.

The most powerful greater daemons don't even bother with realspace.

Yeah, I'm guessing you mean the Chaos gods and their direct champions. (Guards, I suppose)

However, wasn't Ka'Bundha described as the mightiest of Bloodthirsters? OR even one of the mightiest of Khorne's servants? Either way, Driago hasn't nabbed himself a GD mightier than ones the Primarches have broken.

Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Actually, he's the only Primarch that all of the other primarchs acknowledged as their better.

Funny, because Magnus was very confident he was not merely stronger than the other Primarchs, but even more powerful than the Emperor.

While Magnus' psychic abilities gave him an immense advantage over the other Primarchs, he did NOT think himself more powerful than the Emperor. The ranking system of psychic/sorcerous power as Magnus explained to Ahriman placed the Emperor squarely at the top. Magnus was way more powerful and aware of the Warp than the Emperor ever suspected, but he still was no match for his father.

Omegus wrote:While Magnus' psychic abilities gave him an immense advantage over the other Primarchs, he did NOT think himself more powerful than the Emperor. The ranking system of psychic/sorcerous power as Magnus explained to Ahriman placed the Emperor squarely at the top. Magnus was way more powerful and aware of the Warp than the Emperor ever suspected, but he still was no match for his father.

While it's true that Magnus put his father ahead of him on his ranking system, I still recall Magnus stating that, in his studies of the Warp, he eventually surpassed his father.

But I'm also not going to search through the entire book for that passage, so will drop it regardless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:Edit: To above poster, he hasn't destroyed the entire domain of any chaos god. That is obvious, plainly obvious. If he met a god, he would be crushed utterly and completely.

He burned down the Garden of Nurgle.

Mind telling me what Nurgle's domain is called?

Oh that's right. The Garden of Nurgle.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

Apparently all that was left of it was the "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

Oh and then there is this!

"That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible."

Apparently he is utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods.




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Manchu wrote:The most powerful greater daemons don't even bother with realspace.

Depending on which source you believe, either An'ggrath or Ka'Bhanda are the strongest of all Bloodthirsters.

Both have entered realspace.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Omegus wrote:While Magnus' psychic abilities gave him an immense advantage over the other Primarchs, he did NOT think himself more powerful than the Emperor. The ranking system of psychic/sorcerous power as Magnus explained to Ahriman placed the Emperor squarely at the top. Magnus was way more powerful and aware of the Warp than the Emperor ever suspected, but he still was no match for his father.

While it's true that Magnus put his father ahead of him on his ranking system, I still recall Magnus stating that, in his studies of the Warp, he eventually surpassed his father.

But I'm also not going to search through the entire book for that passage, so will drop it regardless.

Oh, his esoteric knowledge of Warp sorcery and the like certainly eclipsed his father's, he was just no match in terms of sheer psychic power. I'm sure he'd put up a decent fight, though. If you accept the BL supposition that the Wolves and Thousand Sons were the biggest threat to Horus' plans, it was implied at one point that in some ways Magnus was a far bigger psychic threat than his father precisely because of his wealth of knowledge.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:

Jackster wrote:Sanguinius eats greater daemons for breakfast.

This^
Sanguinius snapped the back of a bloodthirster over his knee, and he wasn't even considered the most physically powerful of the primarchs for crying out loud! The average greater daemon, no chance in hell (or warp ) GD like skrarband? Would be a challenge indeed...

After that same Bloodthirster had already defeated him once previously. Sanguinius and Ka'Banda were largely evenly matched, which is a huge accomplishment as Bloodthirsters are the most powerful Greater Daemons in 1 on 1 combat.

Greater Daemons vs Daemon Princes is one of the more inconsistent pieces of fluff, there's a lot of misunderstandings on it. Codex: Chaos Daemons makes it clear that Daemon Princes are usually the lieutenants to Greater Daemons, whoa re the highest level of Daemons before the Gods themselves. However on many other occasions we see the opposite, such as a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch summoning 3 Lords of Change to fight the Grey Knights in the GK Omnibus or Angron having a retinue of 12 Bloodthirsters.

In the old Dark Millennium story, I'm pretty sure it was a full score of them.

Omegus wrote:Oh, his esoteric knowledge of Warp sorcery and the like certainly eclipsed his father's, he was just no match in terms of sheer psychic power. I'm sure he'd put up a decent fight, though. If you accept the BL supposition that the Wolves and Thousand Sons were the biggest threat to Horus' plans, it was implied at one point that in some ways Magnus was a far bigger psychic threat than his father precisely because of his wealth of knowledge.

You may be right, which would make sense, now that I think about it. Ahriman could plainly see that the Emperor's sheer psychic aura was larger than Magnus', I can't see how Magnus couldn't.

Hm, when was it suggested Magnus was in some ways a bigger threat than the Emperor psychically (I assume due to Magnus' knowledge of sorcery, specifically).


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Harriticus wrote:After that same Bloodthirster had already defeated him once previously. Sanguinius and Ka'Banda were largely evenly matched, which is a huge accomplishment as Bloodthirsters are the most powerful Greater Daemons in 1 on 1 combat.

But Ka'Bhanda is also the strongest Bloodthirster.

And if you read the first fight, blade to blade, Sanguinius was overall superior to Ka'Bhanda, but Ka'Bhanda's whip allowed him to press an advantage.

Greater Daemons vs Daemon Princes is one of the more inconsistent pieces of fluff, there's a lot of misunderstandings on it. Codex: Chaos Daemons makes it clear that Daemon Princes are usually the lieutenants to Greater Daemons, whoa re the highest level of Daemons before the Gods themselves. However on many other occasions we see the opposite, such as a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch summoning 3 Lords of Change to fight the Grey Knights in the GK Omnibus or Angron having a retinue of 12 Bloodthirsters.

Overall a Greater Daemon is higher in status and power, yeah. I just see it as there being exceptions.

Void__Dragon wrote:
He burned down the Garden of Nurgle.

Mind telling me what Nurgle's domain is called?

Oh that's right. The Garden of Nurgle.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

Apparently all that was left of it was the "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

You really think that means the ENTIRETY of Nurgle's domain? No, it doesn't. He only burned down Nurgle's garden, surely it angered Grandpa that the pretty garden he tended when not unleashing horrible plagues upon man was burnt by some mean Grey Knight, but he didn't LOSE HIS ENTIRE DOMAIN. Just a piece of it. He's described as having a throne room where he's tended to by an untold number of his servants and has got Isha in a cage and a big ol' cauldron where he cooks up his nastiest of nastiness. Surely you're not gonna say that this was in his garden and got burnt up too? It's just his darn garden.

BrainDeleted wrote:You really think that means the ENTIRETY of Nurgle's domain? No, it doesn't. He only burned down Nurgle's garden, surely it angered Grandpa that the pretty garden he tended when not unleashing horrible plagues upon man was burnt by some mean Grey Knight, but he didn't LOSE HIS ENTIRE DOMAIN. Just a piece of it. He's described as having a throne room where he's tended to by an untold number of his servants and has got Isha in a cage and a big ol' cauldron where he cooks up his nastiest of nastiness. Surely you're not gonna say that this was in his garden and got burnt up too? It's just his darn garden.

Considering that it then notes basically nothing was left in Nurgle's domain, yes.

He lives in a big mansion in the middle of the Garden with his cauldron, yes. So maybe the mansion didn't burn down.

Okay, Draigo burned down most of Nurgle's domain.

Actually it says the JUNGLES of Nurgle's Domain. Besides, destroying a God's entire domain would likely entail destroying the God himself since he's bound to his domain. I guess Grandpa could have been out collecting his social security check...But still. Personally, I don't think his domain is only the JUNGLES of his domain but yeah we'll agree to disagree on that one.

I'd say they're roughly about a tie with the toning down of the Primarchs in more recent fluff compared to the old almost godlike primarchs.

Nurgle's domain is infinite in scope. The Warp doesn't have concepts of spacial limits. Draigo burnt down a jungle of Nurgle. Still pretty absurd he could live through that though.

And Void_Dragon if Imperial Armour is considered the ultimate source then An'ggrath the Unbound is the strongest Bloodthirster

BrainDeleted wrote:Actually it says the JUNGLES of Nurgle's Domain. Besides, destroying a God's entire domain would likely entail destroying the God himself since he's bound to his domain. I guess Grandpa could have been out collecting his social security check...But still. Personally, I don't think his domain is only the JUNGLES of his domain but yeah we'll agree to disagree on that one.

Well, all that is really described of Nurgle's domain is a massive jungle, the Garden, which waxes and wanes as Nurgle's power does (And occasionally encroaches on the domains of other gods), with a big mansion in the middle.

But that's still beside the point, the fact that the text asserts that Draigo is beyond the will of the Chaos Gods is the most idiotic part of the fluff.

But that's still beside the point, the fact that the text asserts that Draigo is beyond the will of the Chaos Gods is the most idiotic part of the fluff.

Agreed. They could have at least heavily emphasized the Emperor protecting him and using him as an avatar of his will or something......Tsk, tsk.

Even then it still wouldn't be so bad if Draigo wasn't a playable characer you can have in every Grey Knights army, heh... and instead was merely a legend of days long past.

Melissia wrote:Even then it still wouldn't be so bad if Draigo wasn't a playable characer you can have in every Grey Knights army, heh... and instead was merely a legend of days long past.

Him being a Grey Knight legend wouldn't be so bad, I guess I could agree with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I'd say they're roughly about a tie with the toning down of the Primarchs in more recent fluff compared to the old almost godlike primarchs.

Vulkan survived being hit by what I'm pretty sure was a Nova Cannon in Fulgrim.

I'm just saying.

I think she was talking about GD and Primarches but if that was referring to the Primarches vs. Driago........Grrr.....

Compared to the Primarches whose genetically engineered powers they inherited, the Space Marines are but pale shadows

-Codex: Space Wolves (First one on hand)

BrainDeleted wrote:I think she was talking about GD and Primarches but if that was referring to the Primarches vs. Driago........Grrr.....

Compared to the Primarches whose genetically engineered powers they inherited, the Space Marines are but pale shadows

-Codex: Space Wolves (First one on hand)

I know she was.

Was just pointing out that Primarchs are still very much the "godlike" warriors of old.

Magnus also reminisces mentally of leveling mountains when training with his brothers.

BrainDeleted wrote:I think she was talking about GD and Primarches

Isn't that the topic of the thread?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Was just pointing out that Primarchs are still very much the "godlike" warriors of old.

So are greater daemons, like little gods compared to the big four gods.

Yeeeeees, ma'am but we did get seriously derail for a while

Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Yeah no.

Angron was kicking Brother Captain ass until the remaining Grey Knights, IIRC there were three dozen left, combined all their power and issued forth an attack stronger than the sum of its parts.

This stunned Angron, sheer willpower preventing him from fading completely, but allowed the Brother Captain to behead him while Angron was defenseless.

Late as usual. Just nitpicking to clear up a few facts:

- The Brother-Captian has been named for a while. It's Aurellian. Yes, he shares a similar name with a Daemon Primarch. Kinda funny I guess...
- Alone Angron would have won in a duel with Aurellian, no doubt. On his own Aurellian does manage to inflict at least one wound on Angron. So not too one-sided, though Angron could easily 'reknit' himself.
- Aurellian didn't behead him (this seems to have been reiterated in other topics) but simply impales him and allows the force weapon to do it's stuff.

Done.

BrainDeleted wrote:Quick review.

Draigo:
Size - Normal Astartes ~ 7'6"-8'
Experience - MILLENNIA of constant warfare ALONE AND UNAIDED against the most powerful servants of the Chaos gods IN THE REALM OF CHAOS ITSELF (not the Eye of Terror which is a realspace/warpspace overlap, but the actual REALM OF FRIGGIN CHAOS where every daemon is at 100% full strength and cannot be banished back to the Warp because they are already there) and all without food, water or sleep for longer than any non-daemon primarch has lived.
Equipment - TDA, Aegis, Titansword (which he forged himself from the purified steel of one of Khorne's most powerful bloodthirsters whom he defeated with his bare hands (and here's the key part) IN THE DOMAIN OF KHORNE HIMSELF), Stormshield, Storm bolter.
Psyker - He burned down the domain of a Chaos god with his mind.
Deeds - Knocked a primarch to the ground, then basically held said primarch down like he was his kid brother and wrote all over him with magic marker before sending him packing with a swift kick to the pants. Beat a punching bag LoC several times. Rampages through the Warp destroying things that regenerate once he leaves.

Generic Primarch:
Size - Giant. Towers over Astartes. ~8'6"-10'?
Experience - Hundreds of years of constant warfare, the bloodiest battles the Imperium has ever fought, won the greatest victories the Imperium has ever won.
Equipment - The best stuff ever made by IoM suited to preference.
Psyker - One guy let a Chaos god trick him into breaking the Emperor's secret yellowbrick road. He felt so bad about it he let his ignorant superstitious brother kill all his people and destroy his planet.
Deeds - One guy got himself trapped in a painting by a talking sword. Another guy went totally flying rodent gak and let an assassin kill him. Two other guys got killed by the talking sword guy. And the undisputed greatest and most powerful of them all was turned to Chaos after nearly being killed by a fat bureaucrat with a magic sword.

Is there really that much difference between a rotting domain of nurgle and a rotting domain of nurgle that's on fire?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Quick review.

Draigo:
Size - Normal Astartes ~ 7'6"-8'
Experience - MILLENNIA of constant warfare ALONE AND UNAIDED against the most powerful servants of the Chaos gods IN THE REALM OF CHAOS ITSELF (not the Eye of Terror which is a realspace/warpspace overlap, but the actual REALM OF FRIGGIN CHAOS where every daemon is at 100% full strength and cannot be banished back to the Warp because they are already there) and all without food, water or sleep for longer than any non-daemon primarch has lived.
Equipment - TDA, Aegis, Titansword (which he forged himself from the purified steel of one of Khorne's most powerful bloodthirsters whom he defeated with his bare hands (and here's the key part) IN THE DOMAIN OF KHORNE HIMSELF), Stormshield, Storm bolter.
Psyker - He burned down the domain of a Chaos god with his mind.
Deeds - Knocked a primarch to the ground, then basically held said primarch down like he was his kid brother and wrote all over him with magic marker before sending him packing with a swift kick to the pants. Beat a punching bag LoC several times. Rampages through the Warp destroying things that regenerate once he leaves.

Generic Primarch:
Size - Giant. Towers over Astartes. ~8'6"-10'?
Experience - Hundreds of years of constant warfare, the bloodiest battles the Imperium has ever fought, won the greatest victories the Imperium has ever won.
Equipment - The best stuff ever made by IoM suited to preference.
Psyker - One guy let a Chaos god trick him into breaking the Emperor's secret yellowbrick road. He felt so bad about it he let his ignorant superstitious brother kill all his people and destroy his planet.
Deeds - One guy got himself trapped in a painting by a talking sword. Another guy went totally flying rodent gak and let an assassin kill him. Two other guys got killed by the talking sword guy. And the undisputed greatest and most powerful of them all was turned to Chaos after nearly being killed by a fat bureaucrat with a magic sword.

I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

That guy who destroyed the Emperor's yellow brick road? Yeah, he can tear Titans apart with his mind and stop all movement on a planet, as well as negating a warpstorm that it took the legion's most powerful psykers to summon by himself (should I write ALONE AND UNAIDED there instead to emphasise my point?) The fact that he got tricked by the god of trickery doesn't mean he's less powerful than Draigo.

The guy who got trapped in a painting is the only person in history to defeat two primarchs.

The fact that Kurze had to let an assassin kill him shows not only how far ahead of the Imperium he was, but also strength of will that he didn't have doubts at the last moment. Other deeds? Oh, yeah, he was so accomplished at terror warfare that planets surrendered at the very mention that he was coming for them.

The two guys Fulgrim killed? One killed a Necron construct by drowning it in lava. With his bare hands. The other was apparently the greatest tactician ever known to man...

I'm not sure if I even need to point out what Horus has accomplished, but what the hell. Yes, he got almost killed by a guy with a magic sword. At a time when the Emperor was denying the existence of daemons. By one of the most powerful daemon blades in the galaxy. Then? Oh, yeah. He put the Emperor on life support and burned down Terra so well that the planets tectonic plates shifted. And it stayed burned.

Durza wrote:I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

Find one bad thing about Draigo.

Melissia wrote:So are greater daemons, like little gods compared to the big four gods.

Well, yeah.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Primarchs are as strong or stronger than the Chaos Gods (Though I've honestly seen that claimed).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

Find one bad thing about Draigo.

I think you could maybe expand on that a little more. What do we personally find bad about him? Is there a negative aspect to the character?
Depends. I know one 'bad' thing. Nothing he does accomplishes anything.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Find one bad thing about Draigo.

He has yet to achieve a meaningful victory.

I wouldn't say Draigo doesn't accomplish anything, at the very least he buys time by disrupting the chaos gods. But every major daemon he's killed will just come back.

Daemon Primarch wins.

Regular Primarch on par.

next

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

Find one bad thing about Draigo.

He was too slow to save his Grand Master. He never gets anything done that sticks. His life is basically a continuous cage match until he dies, with brief stints in reality. And that wasn't my point. If you're going to compare things, either use all good points, all bad points, or both. It skews the results if you're going to hunt down every primarch's weakness and ignore the fact that they conquered most of the galaxy.

Durza wrote:If you're going to compare things, either use all good points, all bad points, or both. It skews the results if you're going to hunt down every primarch's weakness and ignore the fact that they conquered most of the galaxy.

Ok, let's be fair then. I will list Draigo's weaknesses.

. . .

. . .

. . . he hasn't successfully destroyed Chaos once and for all? That's all I got.

No one finds your blatant disregard of the background or the rest of this thread amusing.

Right, I guess the topic at hand is what should be discussed. With knowledge of what they're dealing with, most non-daemon primarchs would be able to beat a strong Greater Daemon, I'd imagine. Though that's just based on a powerful one being able to beat one when he was taken by surprise.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:If you're going to compare things, either use all good points, all bad points, or both. It skews the results if you're going to hunt down every primarch's weakness and ignore the fact that they conquered most of the galaxy.

Ok, let's be fair then. I will list Draigo's weaknesses.

. . .

. . .

. . . he hasn't successfully destroyed Chaos once and for all? That's all I got.

Orks could still initiate turbo rape though. Especially Gharkul Blackfang, Kaldor would be eaten. Probably literally. That guy almost killed the fething Emperor.

I don't think the claim that Draigo is more powerful than the Primarchs is meant to be so much serious as a reinforcement of just how terrible Matthew Ward is at writing fluff. Because if we accept the writing as is, Draigo is way superior to the Primarchs, most of whom are a bunch of petulant douche-nozzles.

DarknessEternal wrote:No one finds your blatant disregard of the background or the rest of this thread amusing.

Draigo the Invincible is part of the background. It's not my fault that he has accomplished feats of arms greater than any primarch could hope to match.

How many worlds has Draigo won for them Imperium again? Oh, yeah, he hasn't really done much helpful to anybody since been banished to the warp. But wait, he helps the Grey Knights in battle sometimes, I forgot.

Dont feed the troll.

BrainDeleted wrote:How many worlds has Draigo won for them Imperium again? Oh, yeah, he hasn't really done much helpful to anybody since been banished to the warp. But wait, he helps the Grey Knights in battle sometimes, I forgot.

And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote: This is also why the chaos bless Horus was able to fight the Emperor on an almost even footing.

the weren't on even footing, the emperor spent the fight defending, and trying to reason with him. we are talking about the man that subdued the void dragon. I might be wrong, but I dont think they were nearly on even footing.

that being said i think that this convo ends at the story of angron and100 bloodthirsters. clearly angron was in a leadership position therefore it only makes sense that they are greater than GD. not sure if this holds up across all 4 of the gods. would mortion (sp) kill a nugle GD? i think the answer is absolutely yes.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's my point. Draigo is (almost) utterly useless and dead to the Imperium. None of his wooptidooness does jack. That Bloodthirster got up afterwards and mumbled something about having to go get a new axe. Whee. What's the ultimate feat of arms? The whole point of arms? Conquering. Winning. Victory. None of which Draigo can have barring his occasional forays into real space.

Draigo managed to find his way through Tzeentch's maze. The chaps who get down on their knees for Draigo will tell you he knew the maze's true name or some other such bs, everyone with functioning braincells will tell you he's a terrible, terrible character from the mind of a thirteen year-old. Let's move on.

Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than Greater Daemons, seems to be what we've established.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:No one finds your blatant disregard of the background or the rest of this thread amusing.

Draigo the Invincible is part of the background. It's not my fault that he has accomplished feats of arms greater than any primarch could hope to match.

Vent the barrel!
Sponge it out!
Reload!
More powder!
Aim! (orky aim)
Fire the Troll Cannon!

Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.



Not such a weasel anymore apparently

^ This. I think that it says it all!

EDIT: Oh, and from a loyalist point of view (quote from B&C):

QUOTE (Zynk Kaladin @ Aug 12 2011, 03:01 PM)
As noted, Sanguinius had a sword and also spear if I recall correctly. I think his knee would also be considered a count as powerfist considering that daemon is going to need back surgery, superglue, ice cream, and a billion man sacrifice to the dark gods to rebuild his spine.

A non-ascended primarch handed a bloodthirster a beating, so surely the ascended ones would do better!

Pilau Rice wrote:Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Lorgar beats An'ggrath

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

I knew he had it in him. I actually forgot about it. He was unbelievably powerful after Istvaan.

iproxtaco wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Lorgar beats An'ggrath

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

I knew he had it in him. I actually forgot about it. He was unbelievably powerful after Istvaan.

Spoiler:

To the point where not even Horus or Magnus could have restrained him, to the point where he incapacitated Fulgrim and saw the Daemon indside his brother when not even Magnus could. Lorgar is a badass.

Calm down Taco, he's still a wuss

Yeah, no, no he's not. The old Lorgar wouldn't threaten the Warmaster and Magnus, or use his powers like he did.

Wuss + superpowers = superpowered wuss.

Ok then. I see someone hasn't read Aurelian.

It came out like a week ago, of course I haven't had a chance yet.

Doesn't change his actions/attitudes from First Heretic, though. It's on my list though. As one of more cerebral Primarchs, I do want to like him. Being a tool for a human and a power-hungry Space Marine just make it difficult.

And for what it's worth, Magnus could still kick his ass.

Although I don't really see them in opposition... they'd probably just have a nice sit down with some Warp tea and Chaos crackers.

Lorgar always just annoyed me for some reason. But there's not denying he's strong.

Omegus wrote:It came out like a week ago, of course I haven't had a chance yet.

Doesn't change his actions/attitudes from First Heretic, though. It's on my list though. As one of more cerebral Primarchs, I do want to like him. Being a tool for a human and a power-hungry Space Marine just make it difficult.

And for what it's worth, Magnus could still kick his ass.

Although I don't really see them in opposition... they'd probably just have a nice sit down with some Warp tea and Chaos crackers.

They're all pawns, even Horus, despite his arrogant insistence that he's only using Chaos.
Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend it. The price is steep, but since I only bought the silver version of it, I will definitely say the price is worth it if only for the character development after The First Heretic. His transformation from wuss who gets lead around by an old man and a Space Marine, to a self-assured badass that openly restrains and threatens the Warmaster, honestly, is explained and justified.
Obviously being a huge self-confessed Word Bearers fan, that may just have something to do with it.

As for Magnus, I'm not sure anymore.


Anyway, I apologize for the de-rail.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's my point. Draigo is (almost) utterly useless and dead to the Imperium. None of his wooptidooness does jack. That Bloodthirster got up afterwards and mumbled something about having to go get a new axe. Whee. What's the ultimate feat of arms? The whole point of arms? Conquering. Winning. Victory. None of which Draigo can have barring his occasional forays into real space.

So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

iproxtaco wrote:They're all pawns, even Horus, despite his arrogant insistence that he's only using Chaos.

Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend it. The price is steep, but since I only bought the silver version of it, I will definitely say the price is worth it if only for the character development after The First Heretic. His transformation from wuss who gets lead around by an old man and a Space Marine, to a self-assured badass that openly restrains and threatens the Warmaster, honestly, is explained and justified.
Obviously being a huge self-confessed Word Bearers fan, that may just have something to do with it.

As for Magnus, I'm not sure anymore.

Magnus tries to read Lorgar's mind. He pushes Magnus out using his own powers, and threatens him not to do that again. Magnus recoils. He also senses the Daemon within Fulgrim's body, when Magnus could not, and then incapacitated the Daemon. And of course, he beat the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound. Anyway, I apologize for the de-rail.

There's a difference between being a pawn of Tzeench, and a pawn of, as you put it, "an old man and a Space Marine". Anyway, I'm really keen to read the book, but for $30 they can kiss the hairiest part of my ass. I'll wait for the paperback, or borrow it from one of the locals, or failing that, just read it on scribd in a week or three.

Anyway, do these events happen before or after Lorgar's ascension?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They're all pawns, even Horus, despite his arrogant insistence that he's only using Chaos.

Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend it. The price is steep, but since I only bought the silver version of it, I will definitely say the price is worth it if only for the character development after The First Heretic. His transformation from wuss who gets lead around by an old man and a Space Marine, to a self-assured badass that openly restrains and threatens the Warmaster, honestly, is explained and justified.
Obviously being a huge self-confessed Word Bearers fan, that may just have something to do with it.

As for Magnus, I'm not sure anymore.

Magnus tries to read Lorgar's mind. He pushes Magnus out using his own powers, and threatens him not to do that again. Magnus recoils. He also senses the Daemon within Fulgrim's body, when Magnus could not, and then incapacitated the Daemon. And of course, he beat the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound. Anyway, I apologize for the de-rail.

There's a difference between being a pawn of Tzeench, and a pawn of, as you put it, "an old man and a Space Marine". Anyway, I'm really keen to read the book, but for $30 they can kiss the hairiest part of my ass. I'll wait for the paperback, or borrow it from one of the locals, or failing that, just read it on scribd in a week or three.

Anyway, do these events happen before or after Lorgar's ascension?

The whole book has Lorgar jumping between points in time lead by Ingethel again, to different places, different people (and Daemons), that despite the kind of teleporting around works remarkably well. It's definitely before he turned Daemon Prince.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

He's not trolling here. By your logic a servitor is more powerful than Sanguinus, which is simply rubbish. A servitor is more useful from a physical perspective than Sanguinus, which is entirely different, but even dead the Blood Angels Primarch does a whole lot of good through how he can inspire people.

iproxtaco wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

He's not trolling here. By your logic a servitor is more powerful than Sanguinus, which is simply rubbish. A servitor is more useful from a physical perspective than Sanguinus, which is entirely different, but even dead the Blood Angels Primarch does a whole lot of good through how he can inspire people.

Shattered corpse<Servitor in combat, in the 41st millennium.>

BrainDeleted wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

He's not trolling here. By your logic a servitor is more powerful than Sanguinus, which is simply rubbish. A servitor is more useful from a physical perspective than Sanguinus, which is entirely different, but even dead the Blood Angels Primarch does a whole lot of good through how he can inspire people.

Shattered corpse<Servitor in combat, in the 41st millennium.>

Sanguinus isn't just a corpse. He's an inspirational figure that does more good than any random servitor, you're looking at his in a FAR too narrow view.

He's been powered up by Chaos by that point.

DarknessEternal wrote:He's been powered up by Chaos by that point.

Ah, he has?

I see.

If nothing else, we can confidently assume Daemon Primarchs are greater than most or all Greater Daemons then, I guess.

Though, I lack context, need to read for myself.

The problem with Greater Daemons is that:

A.) Their precise number has never been stated and given the nature of Chaos is probably close to infinite. There are 20 Primarchs but x Bloodthirsters.
B.) They're powerful but generic and faceless. A Lord of Change is a Lord of Change and does Lord of Changey things
C.) They're expendable and replaceable without any effect to the 40k status quo.

The above means that they will be defeated by heroes often to showcase the heroes powers or abilities be they Grey Knights or Primarchs.

ANBU in Naruto, Star Destroyers, the monster-of-the-week in Power Ranges: they all suffer from this same problem.

Really, Greater Daemons should be stronger then any Primarch given what they are but due to the above reasons it will never be so.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's my point. Draigo is (almost) utterly useless and dead to the Imperium. None of his wooptidooness does jack. That Bloodthirster got up afterwards and mumbled something about having to go get a new axe. Whee. What's the ultimate feat of arms? The whole point of arms? Conquering. Winning. Victory. None of which Draigo can have barring his occasional forays into real space.

So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

No, by his logic, Sanguinius conquered countless worlds for the Imperium and possibly helped the Emperor defeat Horus. His actions certainly have a lot more lasting influence than Draigo's pointless struggle in the warp.

Why you are arguing accomplishments as a general when he is speaking of accomplishments in terms of martial and psychic might I'm not entirely sure.

Just saying.

Void__Dragon wrote:Why you are arguing accomplishments as a general when he is speaking of accomplishments in terms of martial and psychic might I'm not entirely sure.

Just saying.

I wasnt really arguing anything as much as explaining the logic behind Braindeleted's argument.

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, no, no he's not. The old Lorgar wouldn't threaten the Warmaster and Magnus, or use his powers like he did.

I was pulling your leg mate, he's clearly a tough chap now after Istvaan, but that still makes him a wuss

Omegus wrote:Wuss + superpowers = superpowered wuss.

I concur

iproxtaco wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Lorgar beats An'ggrath

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

I knew he had it in him. I actually forgot about it. He was unbelievably powerful after Istvaan.

Spoiler:

To the point where not even Horus or Magnus could have restrained him, to the point where he incapacitated Fulgrim and saw the Daemon indside his brother when not even Magnus could. Lorgar is a badass.

Where is this mentioned?