Purchased a Skulltaker finecast model and was looking forward to getting and painting my first finecast model.
When it arrived i quickly found it has several airbubbles caught in it during the casting process.
Main problem was that the left "top" horn on the face was missing about 6mm of the tip and by missing i mean completely gone.
Got it exchanged (bought via GW webstore) but the replacement had the same issue.
Tried heading down to my local store and found that the ones they had suffered from the exact same mis cast issues.
My GS skills are not that good and while I could fix small holes etc sculpting horns is a bit beyond me.
Have now given up on finecast and bought a metal one from ebay.
Was wondering if others have had the same problems or did i just choose a bad model ?

I think you just had bad luck to be honest.

During the first batch of finecast, there were TONS of miscasts, but lately it seems to have gotten better. Granted the problems aren't 100% solved, and i doubt they ever will be.

I've gotten 3 finecast models so far, and I've only had a minor issue with 1 of them, which I was luckily able to fix quite easily myself.

I agree, there's less issues with the metal models from what i've seen, but I wouldn't give up on finecast altogether, it's easier to build, convert, etc. Also your LGS may have just had some of the old batch, I'm not sure.

If you decide to try it out again, I'd suggest opening it at the store just to make sure it's alright so you dont have to deal with the hassle of going back and returning it.

I think you gave it as fair a chance as anyone could ask. I'd write a letter to GW in the UK and let them know what ahppeend and why you're giving up on Finecast.

Thanks to stories like these I decided to give a complete miss.

I was given the Sword Brethren box for my birthday. Three out of the five models have insane amounts of air bubbles in them, the other two were gorgeous. Good thing that I prefer my models to have weathering and battle damage, so I turned the bubbles into armor damage and replaced the offending heads (one has a big bubble smack right in front of its face, and the other looks like he had a stroke) with my own bitz and generally made do with what I have. I also have zero greenstuff skills but they do look decent now, even without greenstuff.

What you can do is salvage that Skulltaker and basically convert a loss into a gain. Even if you're not buying more finecast models, at lease don't let this model be a loss to you: if it has an air bubble on the horn, why not chop off that part of the horn? It might add character. Holes on the skin itself can be changed into wounds by some careful cutting (and painting it as wounds and such). I'm just saying that, while finecast may suck, it'd be a waste to just turn that model into a test piece or a terrain piece or something.

A single model which may actually have been part of the 'first wave'(and one that had problems when cast in metal to boot)--that's a "fair chance"?

I hate to see your track record with metals.

starsdawn wrote:I was given the Sword Brethren box for my models. Three out of the five models have insane amounts of air bubbles in them, the other two were gorgeous. Good thing that I prefer my models to have weathering and battle damage, so I turned the bubbles into armor damage and replaced the offending heads (one has a big bubble smack right in front of its face, and the other looks like he had a stroke) with my own bitz and generally made do with what I have. I also have zero greenstuff skills but they do look decent now, even without greenstuff.

What you can do is salvage that Skulltaker and basically convert a loss into a gain. Even if you're not buying more finecast models, at lease don't let this model be a loss to you: if it has an air bubble on the horn, why not chop off that part of the horn? It might add character. Holes on the skin itself can be changed into wounds by some careful cutting (and painting it as wounds and such). I'm just saying that, while finecast may suck, it'd be a waste to just turn that model into a test piece or a terrain piece or something.

Airbubbles, they're not a bug, they're a feature!

Guys. Don't 'salvage' the models.

Return them If GW send you more defective models, return them. This is something GW do well - faulty products are easily replaced.

-Loki- wrote:Guys. Don't 'salvage' the models.

Return them If GW send you more defective models, return them. This is something GW do well - faulty products are easily replaced.

I was under the impression that you get to keep the defective models.

You get to keep them. I've had enough problems with Finecast that I have entire extra units now. Very bubbly, poorly formed units.

Bubbly units that are soft, finely detailed and thus easy (and pretty!) to chop off and convert into other units.

Kanluwen wrote:A single model which may actually have been part of the 'first wave'(and one that had problems when cast in metal to boot)--that's a "fair chance"?

I hate to see your track record with metals.

I would call it a fair chance yes as the 3 examples I have seen/gotten of it have all had the exact same issues with airbubbles forming in particular spots. Also the more I look at it the more flaws i find in it. Every sharp edge has some minor flaw area where it hasnt filled properly.

My track record with metals ?
I have NEVER had to return a metal model for miscasts or flaws so would say that my track record there is perfect.
After the hype that GW put on about finecast I expected better so you may think im unreasonable but I can hardly see any reason to pay money for something that is defective and I highly doubt you would either.

On a related note I played around a bit with the finecast sprue and was surprised.
There is hardly any resistance in the material and i could actually make a mark in it with my nail so wonder how things would go if
you needed to sand or cut anything on the model itself. Must be very easy to overdo things.

As said by the others, if you plan on buying Finecast check it at the store first, or just buy the ones which you can see if they are defective or not. And yes, it's very easy to overdo things to them: it's both blessing and a curse.

I have mixed results after having purchased two fine cast models. The first was a big mek that was so poorly filled it was literally missing chunks out of the cast. T second is abaddon and I must say this particular casting of him came out AMAZING. It is a gorgeous casting, the detail is phenomenal and there is no bubbles or underfill, however he is very brittle and fragile especially on the spiky bits that come off the top of his armor.

I try to think of finecast as a high-risk, high reward venture. LIKE GAMBLING.

Might be beside the point by now but how is that horn even a problem?

He's like a demon or something, it's not the end of the world if his head isn't 100% symmetrical right?

I guess he fights a lot of dudes? someone obviously shot his horn off.

Almarine wrote:Might be beside the point by now but how is that horn even a problem?

He's like a demon or something, it's not the end of the world if his head isn't 100% symmetrical right?

I guess he fights a lot of dudes? someone obviously shot his horn off.

Thing is that where the airbubbles have formed is at the point where the horns curve around a skull so I can understand why that spot is an issue when casting. True he could have lost the horn in a fight but the flaw does not look anything like a battle damage.
Now dont get me wrong here I love GW models and will gladly continue buying metal/plastic ones its just that finecast to me for the moment seems like buying something that is far from the way it should be.
I hope finecast gets sorted as i do like the idea of the lighter non chipping models and the possibilities it opens up pose wise etc.
It is simply a matter of me not wanting to spend my money on models that are defective, even if you can make do for me it is the principle
that if I pay money for something I want an item that is as it should be.

zugzug wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:A single model which may actually have been part of the 'first wave'(and one that had problems when cast in metal to boot)--that's a "fair chance"?

I hate to see your track record with metals.

I would call it a fair chance yes as the 3 examples I have seen/gotten of it have all had the exact same issues with airbubbles forming in particular spots. Also the more I look at it the more flaws i find in it. Every sharp edge has some minor flaw area where it hasnt filled properly.

And like I said: Skulltaker had issues even in metal. The horns would be flimsy, you'd have misalignments, etc on the molds.

My track record with metals ?
I have NEVER had to return a metal model for miscasts or flaws so would say that my track record there is perfect.

I'm calling bull or you haven't bought much.
Metal has had just as many flaws as Finecast. The flaws are not the same by and large(you won't find air bubbles, for example), but they definitely exist.

After the hype that GW put on about finecast I expected better so you may think im unreasonable but I can hardly see any reason to pay money for something that is defective and I highly doubt you would either.

I've put my money where my mouth is. I bought Vlad when he released in Finecast. He did not have his upraised, grasping hand and the basket hilt on his sword was malformed. I called them and got a replacement, and they sent a replacement. The replacement was fine except for the fact that--again--the basket hilt on the sword was malformed. I called up GW and they offered to replace it with a metal version of the model, as they still have him in stock.

And guess what? The hilt even on the metal version has the same problems. Some parts just don't work, no matter the material.

On a related note I played around a bit with the finecast sprue and was surprised.
There is hardly any resistance in the material and i could actually make a mark in it with my nail

Did you expect the sprue to be stupidly resistant to damage or something?

If that was the case, how would you remove the model from the sprue?

so wonder how things would go if
you needed to sand or cut anything on the model itself. Must be very easy to overdo things.

It's really not.

Kanluwen wrote:Did you expect the sprue to be stupidly resistant to damage or something?

If that was the case, how would you remove the model from the sprue?

So the sprue is a different material/hardness from the model?

If the sprue is that easy to damage, the model would be similar. That's his point.
And things I can't really scratch with my fingernail can get chopped to pieces by most any cutting tool.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Did you expect the sprue to be stupidly resistant to damage or something?

If that was the case, how would you remove the model from the sprue?

So the sprue is a different material/hardness from the model?

If the sprue is that easy to damage, the model would be similar. That's his point.
And things I can't really scratch with my fingernail can get chopped to pieces by most any cutting tool.

Sprues are almost always a different hardness than the model.

And if he actually tried to scratch the model with his fingernail, and it did work--then it was an example of the material not hardening fully. You see it happen sometimes with resin, where it does not harden fully and sometimes will 'sweat' material as it never had time to cure fully.

Kanluwen wrote:

zugzug wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:A single model which may actually have been part of the 'first wave'(and one that had problems when cast in metal to boot)--that's a "fair chance"?

I hate to see your track record with metals.

I would call it a fair chance yes as the 3 examples I have seen/gotten of it have all had the exact same issues with airbubbles forming in particular spots. Also the more I look at it the more flaws i find in it. Every sharp edge has some minor flaw area where it hasnt filled properly.

And like I said: Skulltaker had issues even in metal. The horns would be flimsy, you'd have misalignments, etc on the molds.

My track record with metals ?
I have NEVER had to return a metal model for miscasts or flaws so would say that my track record there is perfect.

I'm calling bull or you haven't bought much.
Metal has had just as many flaws as Finecast. The flaws are not the same by and large(you won't find air bubbles, for example), but they definitely exist.

After the hype that GW put on about finecast I expected better so you may think im unreasonable but I can hardly see any reason to pay money for something that is defective and I highly doubt you would either.

I've put my money where my mouth is. I bought Vlad when he released in Finecast. He did not have his upraised, grasping hand and the basket hilt on his sword was malformed. I called them and got a replacement, and they sent a replacement. The replacement was fine except for the fact that--again--the basket hilt on the sword was malformed. I called up GW and they offered to replace it with a metal version of the model, as they still have him in stock.

And guess what? The hilt even on the metal version has the same problems. Some parts just don't work, no matter the material.

On a related note I played around a bit with the finecast sprue and was surprised.
There is hardly any resistance in the material and i could actually make a mark in it with my nail

Did you expect the sprue to be stupidly resistant to damage or something?

If that was the case, how would you remove the model from the sprue?

so wonder how things would go if
you needed to sand or cut anything on the model itself. Must be very easy to overdo things.

It's really not.

Well I just bought a metal one of ebay so will see if it has as many issues.
Not bought much ? how would you know ? I have about 250 metal models across my armies and yes i agree they have flaws but the flaws in them unlike finecast have not needed resculpts to put detail onto them that should have been there from new.
No I did not expect the material to be stupidly resistant was more that I was surprised how soft it was compared to plastic.
Neither was that meant as critic was simply a question if the softness caused problems when working models.
Have had a look at a friends librarian in terminator armor finecast model looking at it there were several problems that i do not have on mine in metal.

As I said I love the idea behind finecast lighter models no chipping etc just saying that my experience with them means I wont be buying any of them until they seem a bit more sorted.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Did you expect the sprue to be stupidly resistant to damage or something?

If that was the case, how would you remove the model from the sprue?

So the sprue is a different material/hardness from the model?

If the sprue is that easy to damage, the model would be similar. That's his point.
And things I can't really scratch with my fingernail can get chopped to pieces by most any cutting tool.

Sprues are almost always a different hardness than the model.

And if he actually tried to scratch the model with his fingernail, and it did work--then it was an example of the material not hardening fully. You see it happen sometimes with resin, where it does not harden fully and sometimes will 'sweat' material as it never had time to cure fully.

You are quite right there I just tried making a mark with my nail in the model itself but was unable to.
I expected it to be the same as the sprue as I did not think they could have them different but they were my apologies you are right.
So can see that it will be better to work then i thought

Kanluwen wrote:Sprues are almost always a different hardness than the model.

Really? Isn't it just the one combination of chemicals? I guess the model gets some different magic.
I apologize for my sarcastic tone.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sprues are almost always a different hardness than the model.

Really? Isn't it just the one combination of chemicals? I guess the model gets some different magic.
I apologize for my sarcastic tone.

I was surprised at this too as I would have bet money on them being the same.

Am I the only one with 4 Finecast models, and all of them are perfect? (one of them had 1 very small airbubble, but that was easy to fix).

I have 11 Finecast models, and not a single one is faulty, with the exception of the Eldar Missile Launcher to a Dark Reaper Exarch. It is so incredibly bent it looks ridicoulus. Luckily, I would never even consider using the EML on him when you have a Tempest Launcher.

zugzug wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sprues are almost always a different hardness than the model.

Really? Isn't it just the one combination of chemicals? I guess the model gets some different magic.
I apologize for my sarcastic tone.

I was surprised at this too as I would have bet money on them being the same.

Maybe some kind of varied pressure during the molding process, so things in the centre are denser? Only thing I can think of. Perhaps a thickness of the material thing? Baffling.

I was initially enamoured of the idea of Finecast and eagerly awaited the 'new' figures. I got them and realized they weren't new at all. Simply redone old figures.

I then realized that they don't have 'more' detail as espoused by many, but rather 'crisper' detail. I was a little disappointed again, but I can live with crisper.

Then I realized the castings were pretty crappy, roughly 50% of the figures were miscast in some way. While not as fragile as say Forge World resin, they are very light and do not take well to less than moderately skilled putty users in an attempt to fix flaws.

The launch of this line was a disaster in my opinion and while GW customer service is top notch I still don't understand why I had to go through this in the first place.

...and lets not start talking about the pricing.

The entire experience has forced me to reach the same conclusion.

@Kanluwen: Since 1987, I have returned ZERO metal miniatures to GW due to miscasting issue. I've had a couple of cases of having to phone up for packing issues (mispacked / missing parts). But actual physical flaws with the models, no.

I do have a Captain Sicarius (metal) helmet (the one that he's holding) that's miscast, but as the model was to be built with the helmet on and with the plasma pistol, no problem. If I needed to use it though, it would have been returned (taking my 24 year total to ONE).

I'm still seeing lots of issues with Finecast; any improvement in QA seems to be marginal at best. I forsee a huge price hike to cover the necessary labour cost for further checking / production rather than an admission of a monumental screwup.

winterdyne wrote:@Kanluwen: Since 1987, I have returned ZERO metal miniatures to GW due to miscasting issue. I've had a couple of cases of having to phone up for packing issues (mispacked / missing parts). But actual physical flaws with the models, no.

I do have a Captain Sicarius (metal) helmet (the one that he's holding) that's miscast, but as the model was to be built with the helmet on and with the plasma pistol, no problem. If I needed to use it though, it would have been returned (taking my 24 year total to ONE).

I'm still seeing lots of issues with Finecast; any improvement in QA seems to be marginal at best. I forsee a huge price hike to cover the necessary labour cost for further checking / production rather than an admission of a monumental screwup.

Besides, isn't Finecast resin about 30% cheaper than the metal they used (which I actually prefer)?

winterdyne wrote:@Kanluwen: Since 1987, I have returned ZERO metal miniatures to GW due to miscasting issue. I've had a couple of cases of having to phone up for packing issues (mispacked / missing parts). But actual physical flaws with the models, no.

I do have a Captain Sicarius (metal) helmet (the one that he's holding) that's miscast, but as the model was to be built with the helmet on and with the plasma pistol, no problem. If I needed to use it though, it would have been returned (taking my 24 year total to ONE).

I've returned no less than six metals.
Three Kasrkin Grenade Launchers(mold was misaligned--noticeably), an Ezekiel (again--misaligned mold, a full half a millimeter difference between each side of the hood), a Crom the Conqueror and a Dark Elf Dreadlord on Cold One.

I'm still seeing lots of issues with Finecast; any improvement in QA seems to be marginal at best. I foresee a huge price hike to cover the necessary labour cost for further checking / production rather than an admission of a monumental screwup.

When the hell does a company ever make an admission of a monumental screwup when nobody has died?

I've seen a fairly decent improvement in QA. That doesn't change the fact, however, that some models will be more prone to issues than others. It's a different set of problems along with the same old ones.

I have to agree with the majority here. In the 10+ years i have been buying GW product, the only problems i experienced with the metal figures, we're missing parts.

Until now i've only bought 3 finecast models and each and everyone of them has some issues with them. I also feel the finecast models are too brittle.

I am going to be honest with you all and say that in a lot of ways you brought this on yourselves.

Let me explain before you crucify me.

I can buy a very cheap Airfix model and it will fit together almost 100% perfectly, it will have no cast issues etc either.
However i can go buy a £200 FW model that will require me to spend a gazillion hours fitting it together only to find that eventually i will need to use about 3kg of Green Stuff to fill in the gaps.
Same went for the old metals in the shops and the new finecast are shocking considering how long GW have been in this business.

However and here is where we all shot ourselves in the foot.
We all bought into the "its part of the hobby and green stuff will fix it or superglue / plastic glue will sort it" rather than if we found the slightest fault taking it back and forcing GW to step up to the plate as far as QC was concerned.

Consider this.....If you bought a washing machine and it had a scratch on delivery would you accept it? If you bought a suit with 3 buttons missing would you accept it? If you bought a new car with a chipped windscreen would you accept it?
The answer to all of those questions would be no, even though they could all be fixed perfectly very cheaply. Whatsmore we would be livid into the bargain but yet we let GW off with minor issues every day.

Solution? - Many.
The main one being send everything with even the very minor of faults back to GW.
Its all right GW saying Superglue this, plastic glue that, green stuff the next thing but we have to fork out for those things also along with files, drills etc.. If GW accept that we will need Green stuff, glue etc to fully assemble those models then they are required to supply them.
(you buy flat pack furniture and you get all the tools in a bag to build it. Yes we use better ones but if you had none then the ones supplied are fit for purpose.)
If you took account as to how much you fork out in extras you would be shocked.
2 lines up i touched on "fit for purpose" This is now the bain of retailers in the UK at least. What it means is that if you are not 100% happy with your product, if it is not 100% as represented by the company (note that GW now show pics of the sprue on the website, thats not a coincidence) then you can and are entitled to one that is.
Now can you all imagine trying to find a 100% perfectly cast or fitting model in GW shops or online? I would doubt that you could but you know what guys. I think we are entitled to it.

Well it stands to reason that I expect a perfect model. Especially if I am supposed to pay a 30 % surcharge since changing to a cheaper material. What I despise is "workshops" that suggest the buyer is responsible to fix minis that GW screwed up. Sorry guys, not MY job.

GW will never admit they screwed up and there are only two ways to make them pay for their ignorance

a) Don´t buy at all. There is enough other games and manufacturers out there,.
b) Exchange your Shicecast untill they deliver what they are supposed to.

Choice is your but stop whining about "how bad GW" is while you still run there for your minis. Thats childish.

I had loads of problems with my finecast to begin with but my recent purchase of 10 incubi didn't have any defects, there was a backpack bit missing. The thing i hate about finecast is it's all so furry and difficult to clean up compared with metal. I have a difficult time deciding what is model and what is not sometimes.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

I can buy a very cheap Airfix model and it will fit together almost 100% perfectly, it will have no cast issues etc either.
However i can go buy a £200 FW model that will require me to spend a gazillion hours fitting it together only to find that eventually i will need to use about 3kg of Green Stuff to fill in the gaps.
Same went for the old metals in the shops and the new finecast are shocking considering how long GW have been in this business.

However and here is where we all shot ourselves in the foot.
We all bought into the "its part of the hobby and green stuff will fix it or superglue / plastic glue will sort it" rather than if we found the slightest fault taking it back and forcing GW to step up to the plate as far as QC was concerned.

It's something I mentioned a while back in a thread in General Discussions regarding whether FW was worth the money:

Filbert wrote:It might be a little churlish to bring this up but for a supposed 'premium' product with premium prices, I sense very little annoyance here that people have to bend warped resin to fix it. Surely for the price paid, the end consumer should not have to faff about with kettles and taps to fix FW's quality control? It surprises me that so many are willing to put up with it. I mean, I wouldn't pay £100k for a sports car and then be expected to bore the pistons or something...

And you are absolutely right to say that we as consumers bear a certain degree of responsibility for not pressing the issue and demanding the quality. We see it time and time again on these boards where people complain about a GW or FW cast/piece missing or something and then in the very next sentence say 'oh but their customer service is excellent because they sent a new piece out right away'. Customer service be damned - they really should be getting the vast majority of these kits right before they get anywhere near leaving the warehouse. But strangely enough, people continue to pay premium prices and are happy to have to carry out remedial work themselves. Maybe we have been brainwashed into accepting that it's 'part of the hobby'?

Just gotten the metal skulltaker i bought on ebay and it has none of the problems the finecast one has.
So much more pleased with it which is a shame as I really wanted to like finecast.
As for the whinning while still buying thing I agree which is why I wont buy anymore finecast long as it has too many problems.
FW models I am slightly apprehensive as I ordered models for £750 to be picked up at GD UK.

filbert wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:

I can buy a very cheap Airfix model and it will fit together almost 100% perfectly, it will have no cast issues etc either.
However i can go buy a £200 FW model that will require me to spend a gazillion hours fitting it together only to find that eventually i will need to use about 3kg of Green Stuff to fill in the gaps.
Same went for the old metals in the shops and the new finecast are shocking considering how long GW have been in this business.

However and here is where we all shot ourselves in the foot.
We all bought into the "its part of the hobby and green stuff will fix it or superglue / plastic glue will sort it" rather than if we found the slightest fault taking it back and forcing GW to step up to the plate as far as QC was concerned.

It's something I mentioned a while back in a thread in General Discussions regarding whether FW was worth the money:

Filbert wrote:It might be a little churlish to bring this up but for a supposed 'premium' product with premium prices, I sense very little annoyance here that people have to bend warped resin to fix it. Surely for the price paid, the end consumer should not have to faff about with kettles and taps to fix FW's quality control? It surprises me that so many are willing to put up with it. I mean, I wouldn't pay £100k for a sports car and then be expected to bore the pistons or something...

And you are absolutely right to say that we as consumers bear a certain degree of responsibility for not pressing the issue and demanding the quality. We see it time and time again on these boards where people complain about a GW or FW cast/piece missing or something and then in the very next sentence say 'oh but their customer service is excellent because they sent a new piece out right away'. Customer service be damned - they really should be getting the vast majority of these kits right before they get anywhere near leaving the warehouse. But strangely enough, people continue to pay premium prices and are happy to have to carry out remedial work themselves. Maybe we have been brainwashed into accepting that it's 'part of the hobby'?

Addressing these points in order:
1) GW proper has no real believable excuse for miscasts or missing pieces. With that said, I am still willing to give a little leeway with Finecast simply because resin is a pain in the neck to deal with casting. When you start doing full scale production runs (we're talking tens of thousands of models, mind you) on dozens of individual models--there's bound to be some QA issues. It's the nature of the beast with volume production.
2) Forge World does have an excuse. The place is an idea factory for the most part. There are more people producing ideas and a small amount of staff dedicated to the production of the models proper.
3) Your example of warping is kind of one I'm hesitant to address simply because it is relatively believable that some of the more fragile pieces might get heated up during shipping and get bent then.

I compare GW to other companies. In addition to Gamesworkshop I collect Heavy Gear from Dreampod 9.

DP9 is a tiny tiny shop compared to GW, but their casting in both metal and Resin is better. Even though they are a small shop, they take responsibility and will always send out new parts via mail for free as long as you take a lil snapshot of the offending pieces and e-mail it to them.

Considering the Size of GW you'd think they'd be pressure casting all their resins and thus not have any bubble issues whatsoever

Kanluwen wrote:
Addressing these points in order:
1) GW proper has no real believable excuse for miscasts or missing pieces. With that said, I am still willing to give a little leeway with Finecast simply because resin is a pain in the neck to deal with casting. When you start doing full scale production runs (we're talking tens of thousands of models, mind you) on dozens of individual models--there's bound to be some QA issues. It's the nature of the beast with volume production.
2) Forge World does have an excuse. The place is an idea factory for the most part. There are more people producing ideas and a small amount of staff dedicated to the production of the models proper.
3) Your example of warping is kind of one I'm hesitant to address simply because it is relatively believable that some of the more fragile pieces might get heated up during shipping and get bent then.

Do you work for GW?
I cannot believe that you just tried to justify poor practices in this day and age.
As for your defence of FW, i have seen one man bands do a better job at design and casting so i cant see how you can defend the indefencible.
That said these are your thoughts and if you happy with the products offered then i cant slate you for that.

I agree with the idea of how as consumers it's up to us to address the problem to the provider. On the topic of metal models, every single metal model i have purchased has had no miscasts or anything. But then again they are only a small amount of GW's large distribution rate. I suppose if you feel happy to work on a miscast, then fine, but if not, then it's important that you return it.

sebigboss79 wrote:Well it stands to reason that I expect a perfect model. Especially if I am supposed to pay a 30 % surcharge since changing to a cheaper material. What I despise is "workshops" that suggest the buyer is responsible to fix minis that GW screwed up. Sorry guys, not MY job.

GW will never admit they screwed up and there are only two ways to make them pay for their ignorance

a) Don´t buy at all. There is enough other games and manufacturers out there,.
b) Exchange your Shicecast untill they deliver what they are supposed to.

Choice is your but stop whining about "how bad GW" is while you still run there for your minis. Thats childish.

I think it's more childish to not point out wrongs when there ARE wrongs. It's just like saying "Once at Mcdonald's they didn't upsize my meal even though I specifically asked them to upsize it, so I'm not eating at Mcdonald's ever AGAIN." Bit of an overreaction, right? So GW screwed up Finecast, SO WE SHOULD NEVER PLAY WARHAMMER AGAIN AND NEVER BUY THE DECENT PLASTICS AND OTHER MODELS AND EVERYTHING. See how silly it is?

People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Addressing these points in order:
1) GW proper has no real believable excuse for miscasts or missing pieces. With that said, I am still willing to give a little leeway with Finecast simply because resin is a pain in the neck to deal with casting. When you start doing full scale production runs (we're talking tens of thousands of models, mind you) on dozens of individual models--there's bound to be some QA issues. It's the nature of the beast with volume production.
2) Forge World does have an excuse. The place is an idea factory for the most part. There are more people producing ideas and a small amount of staff dedicated to the production of the models proper.
3) Your example of warping is kind of one I'm hesitant to address simply because it is relatively believable that some of the more fragile pieces might get heated up during shipping and get bent then.

Do you work for GW?

Is that the best you've got? Trying to accuse someone of being a corporate shill?

I cannot believe that you just tried to justify poor practices in this day and age.

I cannot believe you don't understand the context. Finecast was rushed. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Any idiot can tell that it was done in such a way that it could be a "Big Deal" for the year, as a distraction from the bigger issues that cropped up during the year.

As for your defence of FW, i have seen one man bands do a better job at design and casting so i cant see how you can defend the indefencible.

No you haven't. Because these "one man bands" don't exist. Read up on almost any of the smaller outfits. Any of these smaller outfits where they have any real number to their stock levels--they outsource to places with the production capabilities. Forge World did for a little bit, but has apparently pulled out of China where they were outsourcing some of their stuff to.

That said these are your thoughts and if you happy with the products offered then i cant slate you for that.

You're damn right you can't. I've had far better experiences with GW than Privateer Press. The only company that I've had as good of an experience with has been West Wind.

And quite frankly:
If you're not returning miscasts, you're doing it wrong. Are there some things that are fixable--like small air imperfections in cloaks? Sure. That's not a big deal. But even if you're not going to return it and fix it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection.

Kanluwen wrote:
And quite frankly:
If you're not returning miscasts, you're doing it wrong. Are there some things that are fixable--like small air imperfections in cloaks? Sure. That's not a big deal. But even if you're not going to return it and fix it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection.

My problem is not everyone lives nearby where they can ship models within days. If I call them up, it would take at least a month for the replacement model to get here, and what if it's defective as well? Now so much more of my time is wasted.

starsdawn wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And quite frankly:
If you're not returning miscasts, you're doing it wrong. Are there some things that are fixable--like small air imperfections in cloaks? Sure. That's not a big deal. But even if you're not going to return it and fix it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection.

My problem is not everyone lives nearby where they can ship models within days. If I call them up, it would take at least a month for the replacement model to get here, and what if it's defective as well? Now so much more of my time is wasted.

Thing is, you won't be having to ship it back to them every time if you're calling. There will come a critical mass point where they will ask for it, but they'll also set it up so you can ship it back free.

And I don't know where you live at that it takes a month for the replacement model to get there.

Kanluwen wrote:
I've returned no less than six metals.
Three Kasrkin Grenade Launchers(mold was misaligned--noticeably), an Ezekiel (again--misaligned mold, a full half a millimeter difference between each side of the hood), a Crom the Conqueror and a Dark Elf Dreadlord on Cold One.

In how many years? I've returned 3 Finecasts (and rejected 5 more in store) in ONE purchase. Indicative of severe problems.

When the hell does a company ever make an admission of a monumental screwup when nobody has died?

I've seen a fairly decent improvement in QA. That doesn't change the fact, however, that some models will be more prone to issues than others. It's a different set of problems along with the same old ones.

I'm not the first to draw the 'New Coke' analogy, but I will here. I'm not talking about an admission in terms of public apology, merely a turnaround in strategy that shows the error has been reacted to. Certainly the analogy holds in the comparisons of a change of format or formulation of a well known, distinctive product. Yes, there are many other minatures companies, but no others that make explicitly Warhammer or 40k styled miniatures. Similarly there are many colas but only one coke. Both have the launch of a technically superior product (QA notwithstanding, a top-end Finecast product *is* actually better than a top-end metal) that has been pretty much vilified on release.

Yep, I take an anti-Finecast (as it stands) attitude but I think it could be better (even with the material issues it has) than metal. Why? Because the material issues (poor surface / abrasive properties, poor straightening) are irrelevant in the case of a non-warped, properly filled, properly mixed casting. The positives (excellent gluing properties, light weight, good paint adhesion, flexibility, ease of cutting) suddenly become usable (in the case of a crap cast, the failings of the material make it very difficult to get to a situation where the positives can come into play).
Unless I can get that perfect cast on demand though, it's a gamble to buy. Metal has been pretty consistent on the whole.

Edit:

If you're not returning miscasts, you're doing it wrong. Are there some things that are fixable--like small air imperfections in cloaks? Sure. That's not a big deal. But even if you're not going to return it and fix it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection.

This. On this, we agree. Seriously folks, stop accepting crap.

winterdyne wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I've returned no less than six metals.
Three Kasrkin Grenade Launchers(mold was misaligned--noticeably), an Ezekiel (again--misaligned mold, a full half a millimeter difference between each side of the hood), a Crom the Conqueror and a Dark Elf Dreadlord on Cold One.

In how many years? I've returned 3 Finecasts (and rejected 5 more in store) in ONE purchase. Indicative of severe problems.

The Grenade Launchers were all from the release of the Kasrkin sets, Ezekiel was a year back, Crom was during the whole Storm of Chaos thing, and the Dreadlord on Cold One was this past winter.

I should specify a bit in that I'm not saying that Finecast is completely flawless or anything like that. It's ridiculous that these errors are happening. I should not receive a Vlad von Carstein whom is missing his entire hand, for example.

But I will also say that some of these "unacceptable cases" that people talk about(air bubbles in cloaks or flat surfaces which are easily fixed, for example) are so ridiculously blown out of proportion that it kind of skews any real complaints.

When the hell does a company ever make an admission of a monumental screwup when nobody has died?

I've seen a fairly decent improvement in QA. That doesn't change the fact, however, that some models will be more prone to issues than others. It's a different set of problems along with the same old ones.

I'm not the first to draw the 'New Coke' analogy, but I will here. I'm not talking about an admission in terms of public apology, merely a turnaround in strategy that shows the error has been reacted to. Certainly the analogy holds in the comparisons of a change of format or formulation of a well known, distinctive product. Yes, there are many other minatures companies, but no others that make explicitly Warhammer or 40k styled miniatures. Similarly there are many colas but only one coke. Both have the launch of a technically superior product (QA notwithstanding, a top-end Finecast product *is* actually better than a top-end metal) that has been pretty much vilified on release.

There's always been rumors and hinting that New Coke/Pepsis were launched with the explicit intent of bombing.

I don't think GW is that clever in any case.

Yep, I take an anti-Finecast (as it stands) attitude but I think it could be better (even with the material issues it has) than metal. Why? Because the material issues (poor surface / abrasive properties, poor straightening) are irrelevant in the case of a non-warped, properly filled, properly mixed casting. The positives (excellent gluing properties, light weight, good paint adhesion, flexibility, ease of cutting) suddenly become usable (in the case of a crap cast, the failings of the material make it very difficult to get to a situation where the positives can come into play).

I agree with you on this matter.
The material has the possibility of great things. We're seeing them a bit in the new models that were designed specifically with Finecast in mind, but the old metals that have been 'converted' are a big gamble.

Unless I can get that perfect cast on demand though, it's a gamble to buy. Metal has been pretty consistent on the whole.

Wouldn't you agree that metal has been pretty consistent on the whole simply due to how long they've been working with it?

I mean, GW was working in metal before they started WH/40k.

Kanluwen wrote:

starsdawn wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And quite frankly:
If you're not returning miscasts, you're doing it wrong. Are there some things that are fixable--like small air imperfections in cloaks? Sure. That's not a big deal. But even if you're not going to return it and fix it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection.

My problem is not everyone lives nearby where they can ship models within days. If I call them up, it would take at least a month for the replacement model to get here, and what if it's defective as well? Now so much more of my time is wasted.

Thing is, you won't be having to ship it back to them every time if you're calling. There will come a critical mass point where they will ask for it, but they'll also set it up so you can ship it back free.

And I don't know where you live at that it takes a month for the replacement model to get there.

Philippines. Our post office is a bitch. See, not everyone lives in US or UK.

starsdawn wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

starsdawn wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And quite frankly:
If you're not returning miscasts, you're doing it wrong. Are there some things that are fixable--like small air imperfections in cloaks? Sure. That's not a big deal. But even if you're not going to return it and fix it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection.

My problem is not everyone lives nearby where they can ship models within days. If I call them up, it would take at least a month for the replacement model to get here, and what if it's defective as well? Now so much more of my time is wasted.

Thing is, you won't be having to ship it back to them every time if you're calling. There will come a critical mass point where they will ask for it, but they'll also set it up so you can ship it back free.

And I don't know where you live at that it takes a month for the replacement model to get there.

Philippines. Our post office is a bitch. See, not everyone lives in US or UK.

It's not like I can go to a GW shop to return my stuff either Star. The closest "official" GW shop to me is 5 hours in any direction(except for East).
I can go to Virginia, their head office in Tennessee, or South Carolina. It's better to just call them in my case, and leave my LGS out of it.

I only have a couple of finecast models, and while i have been disappointed with the amount of holes in them (especially the Lamasu) i have taken this as an oppotunity to improve my grren stuff skills. It has worked but i could still use some work.

I would recommend getting some silcone paint shapers. They have really helped me get a smooth finish for filling and resculpting sections.

Yes, I'm saying that it WILL considerably take more of my time and it's much, much more of a hassle to return those models than just make do with what I've received. It's kinda offending to say that I'm "doing it wrong" because I don't want to waste huge amounts of time and nerves for replacement models.

starsdawn wrote:Yes, I'm saying that it WILL considerably take more of my time and it's much, much more of a hassle to return those models than just make do with what I've received. It's kinda offending to say that I'm "doing it wrong" because I don't want to waste huge amounts of time and nerves for replacement models.

Then maybe you should have kept reading my part where I said "even if you don't plan on returning it and fixing it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection."

Sorry for not using multi qoutes but I find them a hassle (TBH I dont know how to use them )

Kanluwen : Seems we can agree on returning faulty items to let GW know that they need to improve things.
Also agree with you that finecast was rushed which is a huge shame as I wanted to like it due to the same reasons you and winterdyne
said with potentials.
As for the small flaws you mentioned ie small bubbles etc I would not make an issue out of them either as i can easily deal with them
although as GBdarkangel mentioned every time we salvage or make do we do shoot ourselves a bit in the foot.
For me its the time and hassle involved in getting it exchanged that means I fix it.
However when the issues are more serious as was my experience with skulltaker I do complain/return the item.
When prominent details fail in casting it is too much to accept IMO.
Please dont think of me as a "I must complain about every aspect of GW whiner" as it is only finecast I have an issue with.
That being said soon as they bring out something shiny in finecast I MUST have I know I will once again open my wallet to buy it.
I love GW and tbh I dont even mind their prices that much its a hobby not something I need to live.
Some of the recent releases have even been cheap by my reckoning (arcane fulcrums being one).

GBdarkangel I do agree that we should return all flawed models as that would make them step up to the plate as you say.
As previously mentioned in my case its the hassle which means I dont even though I know I should.

sebigboss79 stop buying plastic crack ? I would not last a week without my fix. Which is why I dont complain about GW as a whole.
Have many times when seeing whine posts thought the same. Fair enough my first post was a whine I know that.
Was annoyed after 3 models being kaput when I need one semi urgently to have time to paint it for my nephews b-day.
So apologies for my whine but I still say I will not buy finecast until they get it a bit more sorted even though a shiny one might tempt me (I never bloody learn)

Mighty moj God knows my GS skill needs improving and if it had been holes I would have gladly done it but sculpting back detail is beyond me.

and finalyy Kanluwen again for your last post: Good point even if youre not returning it make them aware of issues otherwise they will assume nothing is wrong (or atleast pretend wouldnt we all )

I'm afraid I am not a fan of 'fine'cast at all! Every single model I have tried with 'fine'cast has had things wrong with it! I have a thread going at the moment (seems to be going around in circles a bit now) where I have ranted about 'fine'cast! I have had nothing but trouble with the damn stuff! I am hoping that they will sort the issues out and soon though!

Yay! Another finecast bash threat, weeee..

Kanluwen wrote:
Then maybe you should have kept reading my part where I said "even if you don't plan on returning it and fixing it--call their customer service line and inform them of the issue. Waste their time like they wasted yours in fixing the imperfection."

I did. It's just that your post rubbed me the wrong way. Adding "I don't know where you live at that it takes a month for the replacement model to get there" didn't help, either. It sounded elitist.

sorry i don't agree


I have been a lot happier since more plastic models came out as in my early years of gaming I came across many a problem... although I have to say so far the fine casts have been ok... though I dont hold much hope.

Kanluwen wrote:

Metal has had just as many flaws as Finecast. The flaws are not the same by and large(you won't find air bubbles, for example), but they definitely exist.

You are a fool if you really stand behind this statement. More people have had problems with finecast models than not, at least I can speak for my area and a ton of people here on dakka. I myself had to exchange a box of striking scorpions 3 times, a shadowseer 2 times, a Lelith Hesperax 2 times, a warboss 1 time, and dark reapers box 2 times. About half of these happened at the beginning of finecast release but the other half were well past the first run, every finecast model I have bought has had to be exchanged until finally I found a set that was acceptable but still worse shape and required more repair work than an average metal model. I have never had to exchange a metal model, and I have spent thousands on models in general, im not new to the hobby. Its unacceptable for any company (let alone one as big as GW) to put out a product that they claim to be superior (and raise prices on most of the models) and have it be anything but outstanding. What you are forgetting is they are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS in the field of casting minis. Ive cast detailed minis on my own at home and gotten better results than most finecast models ive bought and I dont have even a small fraction of the resources GW has. They have the money and resources to pay for an actual working quality control department, which either they dont have at all or the people or machines they use to do it dont work. They make alot of money off us and everyone who buys their products should get the highest quality miniature that can be produced for the prices we all pay. It doesnt matter if they have a good exchange policy, we shouldnt have to constantly exchange products due to low quality because its not good business. If you paid a plumber to fix your toilet and he screwed up 3 or 4 times until he got it right you would be pissed. It wouldnt matter if he was nice about it and admitted his mistakes, it would still be a bad experience and you wouldnt hire that plumber again. Its the same with any company selling a service or product whether its minis or cheeseburgers or a toilet repair. GW needs to fix there product

The only reason I buy Finecost is because I have no real alternative.

Finecost is utter rubbish. Instead of saying; "I wonder if there are some things that needs straightening out or filling on my new metal model?", I have now moved into; " I wonder how much of my Finecost model I need to straighten or fill in?".

I have, starting from release up to about two weeks ago, bought two boxes of Wracks, a Marneus Calgar with Command Squad, A Techmarine with Servitors, Castellan Crowe and a Terminator Librarian.
They have ALL had flaws like which I have NEVER seen in metal models.
Most needed replacement, some didn't.

As for turning production flaws into features, you must be absolutely insane. In no way is that acceptable.
Should I wish to add battle damage or cutting horns off of my models, it should be my choice.
It can never be a redeeming feature or an excuse for GW latest failure, that I can pretend it is intentional.

And one must be completely delusional to even hint at, that the amount of miscasts/flaws found in the old metal production line was even close to the mess that is Finecost.
How can the fact that one product had (far less) flaws ever be used as an excuse for another products (numerous) flaws?

"Well yes, sir. While car B certainly is rubbish, you need to keep in mind that car A also was a bit rubbish...and therefore it is OK for me as a salemans to present car B as the second coming of Christ."

What?!?

Finecost should be judged on its own merits....or lack thereof.

As for GWs return policy it is, and always has been, excellent. Any models found to have flaws have been replaced without comment or negativisms.
It is just sad and unacceptable how much I have had to make use of that.
Just as it is sad and unacceptable that I have to open every Finecost blister or box in the store to see what I need to have replaced, instead of just going home safe in the knowledge that I have, at premium price, bought a miniature from the best miniature company in the world, and that I will be happy with the result when I open the box.
As for buying Finecost online where I can't check the blister/box....yeah, right. Once again GW has, this time indirectly, distanced themselves from this newfangled Internet thing.

'In our total period of metal production we've had 35,000 returned miniatures. We've only had 20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period for that, it's obviously *much* better'.

This is not a quote, merely a vague attempt at Sunday morning humour.

Here in Thailand. there's also a same complains about Citadel Finecast products. some fans even called it 'Failcast' or 'Quai Cast'

Some purchasers there are lucky having an FC products in good condition. others are not.
http://www.fastdicerolling.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1470&st=0&start=0

look at GK shown in the link (it's not mine. I don't have a plan to buy ANY FC products)

http://www.fastdicerolling.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1394&hl=finecast

Another link from local community forum. saying that a Tyrant guard was decapitated even before being packed. no heads were found in package.

Do you want any translations from each posts in the two threads? and to which degree?

Iv only ever bought plague marines and i can't even tell if its miscast or not due to all the plague stuff :/
Also mh brother got an avatar in finecast ans it stunning

Kanluwen wrote:
But I will also say that some of these "unacceptable cases" that people talk about(air bubbles in cloaks or flat surfaces which are easily fixed, for example) are so ridiculously blown out of proportion that it kind of skews any real complaints.

And why the hell exactly should we repair them ourselves when GW should have made sure they were 100% in the first place.
You said i was accusiing you of being a GW fanboy, rentboy, whatever you want to call it. I wasnt but you hve now shown yourself to be exactly that.
This whole thread is about the unacceptable quality of finecast, those examples you state are unacceptable. If you are happy to bend over and let GW tell you how you are taking it then fine; that is your choice but its not ours.

Thare1774 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Metal has had just as many flaws as Finecast. The flaws are not the same by and large(you won't find air bubbles, for example), but they definitely exist.

You are a fool if you really stand behind this statement. More people have had problems with finecast models than not, at least I can speak for my area and a ton of people here on dakka. I myself had to exchange a box of striking scorpions 3 times, a shadowseer 2 times, a Lelith Hesperax 2 times, a warboss 1 time, and dark reapers box 2 times. About half of these happened at the beginning of finecast release but the other half were well past the first run, every finecast model I have bought has had to be exchanged until finally I found a set that was acceptable but still worse shape and required more repair work than an average metal model. I have never had to exchange a metal model, and I have spent thousands on models in general, im not new to the hobby. Its unacceptable for any company (let alone one as big as GW) to put out a product that they claim to be superior (and raise prices on most of the models) and have it be anything but outstanding. What you are forgetting is they are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS in the field of casting minis. Ive cast detailed minis on my own at home and gotten better results than most finecast models ive bought and I dont have even a small fraction of the resources GW has. They have the money and resources to pay for an actual working quality control department, which either they dont have at all or the people or machines they use to do it dont work. They make alot of money off us and everyone who buys their products should get the highest quality miniature that can be produced for the prices we all pay. It doesnt matter if they have a good exchange policy, we shouldnt have to constantly exchange products due to low quality because its not good business. If you paid a plumber to fix your toilet and he screwed up 3 or 4 times until he got it right you would be pissed. It wouldnt matter if he was nice about it and admitted his mistakes, it would still be a bad experience and you wouldnt hire that plumber again. Its the same with any company selling a service or product whether its minis or cheeseburgers or a toilet repair. GW needs to fix there product

Is he really a fool or have you just not taken off your GW coloured glasses?
I can barely recall buying any multi part GW metal product that did not require at least some green stuff to patch up the gaps.
Again something we should never have had to do.

I have included the UK fit for purpose guidance. it should also be noted that having spoken to my daughter (CAB Advisor) that even if issues crop up within 6 months (sometimes a year) you are still entitled to a full refund or repair etc.
My daughter also points out that in these days of litigation gone crazy GW are off their heads to put a Eavy Metal painted version next to the "on the sprue" version as 99% of us will never be able to achieve that level.
Now that would have been impossible to argue 5 years ago that because i cannot achieve that level i should get a refund but nowdays she says that she would be 50 /50 that; that particualr argument could now be won.

Fit for Purpose. http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/understanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/

Another point here....It could be argued that GW should have to drop the Finecast tag until such times as it lives up to their claims.

Deefect wrote:Yay! Another finecast bash threat, weeee..

Quoth the chap named Deefect
Oh precious Irony, how many ways are thy wonders?

Steelmage99 wrote:

As for turning production flaws into features, you must be absolutely insane. In no way is that acceptable.
Should I wish to add battle damage or cutting horns off of my models, it should be my choice.
It can never be a redeeming feature or an excuse for GW latest failure, that I can pretend it is intentional.

Well if it's free to keep the defective products (which some people pointed out based on their experience), why not make the most of what you got if you're gonna have an additional model anyway? It's not insanity: it's resourcefulness.

starsdawn wrote:

sebigboss79 wrote:Well it stands to reason that I expect a perfect model. Especially if I am supposed to pay a 30 % surcharge since changing to a cheaper material. What I despise is "workshops" that suggest the buyer is responsible to fix minis that GW screwed up. Sorry guys, not MY job.

GW will never admit they screwed up and there are only two ways to make them pay for their ignorance

a) Don´t buy at all. There is enough other games and manufacturers out there,.
b) Exchange your Shicecast untill they deliver what they are supposed to.

Choice is your but stop whining about "how bad GW" is while you still run there for your minis. Thats childish.

I think it's more childish to not point out wrongs when there ARE wrongs. It's just like saying "Once at Mcdonald's they didn't upsize my meal even though I specifically asked them to upsize it, so I'm not eating at Mcdonald's ever AGAIN." Bit of an overreaction, right? So GW screwed up Finecast, SO WE SHOULD NEVER PLAY WARHAMMER AGAIN AND NEVER BUY THE DECENT PLASTICS AND OTHER MODELS AND EVERYTHING. See how silly it is?

People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

I think you missed my point entirely.

I did not negate GWs fantastic works especially the latest PLASTIC releases. But then again, with over 30 years of experience I would rather expect them to get better with experience.

Yes I also play other games, may the Emperors wrath cleanse me and guess what: The smaller the company, the more decent the management behaves towards their clients. Believe it or not but GW is simply so successfull because

a) they have been in business since the Stone Age.
b) they have built a broad player base
c) they surpress any other notion of the hobby rigurously. (Litigation against cmpetitors and fansites)

There is no problem to start a new game as long as people are not too narrowminded not to recognize there are other companies than GW. Most with better service and rulesets.
Of course people have different taste in miniatures, thats why we live in a free world (although GW tries to shut markets while using cheap production options themselves = hypocritical) and can buy what we want. GW does not even have a decent balance in 40k. The newest army automatically is better to frustrate veterans into buying more stuff or a whole new army. I think that behaviour IS despisable. Not to mention it is only about selling some starter sets to "kiddies" that give up after they realise how much work you have to put in. Thus sales have been declining for years. (15 % price increase does NOT lead to a 1 % increase in sales. It should get you 15 % more sales.)

Anouncing a total revolution in miniatures and then releasing such a failure to the market is yet a new record they set. And again: You expect ME the customer to repair such failures. Sorry, NO F..ing way! If you can´t get it right, don´t bother . Don´t tell people to fix your mistakes, don´t call them features and paint them = EPIC FAIL.To get the right proportion of this. I have been wargaming since the 80s so I do believe I know a little about what I am saying. GW is declining because they lost touch with their true customer base and have become a vending machine trying to run on empty. A friend of mine (total fanboy) dropped GW completely last month due to their behaviour and started FoW.

Recently I dealt with Chris Lynch ordering some of his Cold Navy spaceships (Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, 6Frigates). As tey took longer he simply put in a Battlecruiser for free. Now when has GW done this or reduced prices? I love wargaming but not with an all overseeing GW that tells me I have to fix their crap and buy more, more ..MORE. I sincerely hope they can come back to a more sensible behaviour, pricing and customer service attitude. But then, I doubt they will unless AFTER filing bancruptcy (which won´t happen shortly).

winterdyne wrote:'In our total period of metal production we've had 35,000 returned miniatures. We've only had 20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period for that, it's obviously *much* better'.

I know you said you were bein funny, but did GW really put out a statement like this? If so I am utterly speachless

^ that was GW's simple marketing lies. trying to keep Finecast products up and running.

'Total period of metal production' ... when was the first GW-produced metal miniatures launched? that was 30 or a bit more years. If using average product return per year. the figure is still alot better compared to '20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period'

doing Mathematics and GW needs to recall EVERY Finecast product available and fix the QC/ production techniques problem first.
before someone else begin using a forbidden art to earn profits for him/her self. =^.^=

So, let us say since 1988 to 2011, (my present record for the gaming of GW), 35.000 metals have been returned. That means 1, 346 or so minis returned for defects in a 26yr period as an example.
Finecast has been out for say a few months and they have had already an admitted to 20,000 minis returned in less than a year

So, 1,346 minis a year, over the last 26yrs.

Now we have 20,000 minis in just one yearly quarter!

That statement was a major mistake on their part.
Finecast, performance wise is not looking a good sales pitch. I have seen and heard of really nice casts folks got, but they still will have the minor flaws in those as well.

Yes, the metals were never perfect either, a friend who worked at the US site in Maryland noted the speed at which they were ordered by their overseers to pop the minis still hot and soft out of the molds to fill the orders and trucks up.

I can only imagine how fast they are making the workers in China do the same for the finecast and with 20,000 defects reported alone in the first quarter it was launched? Very sad.

@Gbdarkangel- the only time I've ever HAD to use green stuff on metal was to fill gaps in joints. It is such a small easy to achieve process that I've never even considered it a flaw. You cannot compare the major problems with finecast, like a missing face, to a simple gap fill on a metal model. GW colored glasses? I'm just simply pointing out that metal models do not have a fraction of the problems that I and a large percentage of gamers have had with finecast. We shouldn't be used to test out their product and give them feedback on what they've done wrong, before they released FC it should have been at least on the same level as the metal models when it comes to quality. I don't know why anyone defends GW when it comes to this subject, its not even an argument. It is a fact that the quality of the finecast models is poor far too often. metal models, though "less detailed", have but a small fraction of the problems let alone major problems like missing important details from miscasting that a lot of people don't have the skill to fix.

Surely they never said that about returns?
I mean, even GW can't be that stupid.

I would like to see a source for the statement.

Winterdyne wrote:'In our total period of metal production we've had 35,000 returned miniatures. We've only had 20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period for that, it's obviously *much* better'.

This is not a quote, merely a vague attempt at Sunday morning humour.

Bolded for emphasis. I don't think Winterdyne wants to be quoted as an official GW source.

I'm interested to see where that statement came from, I wouldn't doubt it as fact though. The numbers at least sound feasible worldwide

Thanks Kanners
Had a skim through but couldn't find the post.

I don't mind being quoted as an official source for GW

Here is the latest GW news.
As of midnight 20th September 2011 Games Workshop will cease trading.
All stocks of goods will be given to childrens' homes across the country

Wonder how long it will be before that is taken as fact on the internets

Having primed my first finecast model (which is actually two that I combined, and therefore Very expensive) and discovering so many more airbubbles than I had realized were there... I'm pretty much going to be giving up on it, too.

Sigh...

Will consider it sometime in the future when GW has worked out the kinks, maybe, but the price and lack of quality have killed my (originally quite significant) interest in it.

sebigboss79 wrote:

starsdawn wrote:

sebigboss79 wrote:Well it stands to reason that I expect a perfect model. Especially if I am supposed to pay a 30 % surcharge since changing to a cheaper material. What I despise is "workshops" that suggest the buyer is responsible to fix minis that GW screwed up. Sorry guys, not MY job.

GW will never admit they screwed up and there are only two ways to make them pay for their ignorance

a) Don´t buy at all. There is enough other games and manufacturers out there,.
b) Exchange your Shicecast untill they deliver what they are supposed to.

Choice is your but stop whining about "how bad GW" is while you still run there for your minis. Thats childish.

I think it's more childish to not point out wrongs when there ARE wrongs. It's just like saying "Once at Mcdonald's they didn't upsize my meal even though I specifically asked them to upsize it, so I'm not eating at Mcdonald's ever AGAIN." Bit of an overreaction, right? So GW screwed up Finecast, SO WE SHOULD NEVER PLAY WARHAMMER AGAIN AND NEVER BUY THE DECENT PLASTICS AND OTHER MODELS AND EVERYTHING. See how silly it is?

People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

I think you missed my point entirely.

I did not negate GWs fantastic works especially the latest PLASTIC releases. But then again, with over 30 years of experience I would rather expect them to get better with experience.

Yes I also play other games, may the Emperors wrath cleanse me and guess what: The smaller the company, the more decent the management behaves towards their clients. Believe it or not but GW is simply so successfull because

a) they have been in business since the Stone Age.
b) they have built a broad player base
c) they surpress any other notion of the hobby rigurously. (Litigation against cmpetitors and fansites)

There is no problem to start a new game as long as people are not too narrowminded not to recognize there are other companies than GW. Most with better service and rulesets.
Of course people have different taste in miniatures, thats why we live in a free world (although GW tries to shut markets while using cheap production options themselves = hypocritical) and can buy what we want. GW does not even have a decent balance in 40k. The newest army automatically is better to frustrate veterans into buying more stuff or a whole new army. I think that behaviour IS despisable. Not to mention it is only about selling some starter sets to "kiddies" that give up after they realise how much work you have to put in. Thus sales have been declining for years. (15 % price increase does NOT lead to a 1 % increase in sales. It should get you 15 % more sales.)

Anouncing a total revolution in miniatures and then releasing such a failure to the market is yet a new record they set. And again: You expect ME the customer to repair such failures. Sorry, NO F..ing way! If you can´t get it right, don´t bother . Don´t tell people to fix your mistakes, don´t call them features and paint them = EPIC FAIL.To get the right proportion of this. I have been wargaming since the 80s so I do believe I know a little about what I am saying. GW is declining because they lost touch with their true customer base and have become a vending machine trying to run on empty. A friend of mine (total fanboy) dropped GW completely last month due to their behaviour and started FoW.

Recently I dealt with Chris Lynch ordering some of his Cold Navy spaceships (Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, 6Frigates). As tey took longer he simply put in a Battlecruiser for free. Now when has GW done this or reduced prices? I love wargaming but not with an all overseeing GW that tells me I have to fix their crap and buy more, more ..MORE. I sincerely hope they can come back to a more sensible behaviour, pricing and customer service attitude. But then, I doubt they will unless AFTER filing bancruptcy (which won´t happen shortly).

What point of "don't whine while you're still buying GW products" did I miss?

Actually no issues with my Finecast models.

1. People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them
2. AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

1. They gon dun me wroang but ah loves them so muach ah just cant git up an quit em

2. Thank goodness for peer group pressure.
It's what fuels the GW engine and keeps it ticking over.

Point you're trying to make being....?

You know what, I started typing a reasonable answer to your question.
But that flashing avatar is so annoying I no longer want to stay on this page.

Right.

Because you need to stare at an avatar to type and make a reasonable point.

It doesn't even show when you hit the reply button and start typing, y'know, a reply.

Please come back when you ran out of cute excuses and maybe we can have a reasonable conversation.

I guess not everyone looks at Finecast the way I do. Let me give my latest example :

I bought a finecast Tyranid Hive Tyrant about a month ago. Upon recieving it, and looking over the model, I noticed that there was a miscast of the spikes on his left leg. I called GW, and asked for a replacement leg. I told them I would send them pics, or send the part back to them if need be, but they told me not to worry about it and they would get a replacement part out to me shortly. A few days later, I recieve a brand new Hive Tyrant. So now I have 2 Finecast Hive tyrants for the price of 1. The one thats leg was messed up is still perfectly useable, and I got twice the amount of bits that come along with the Tyrant. Also I did a comparison, and the details are much crisper on the finecast vs the metal, and the model is 10000 times easier to put together.

I am not saying that GW is perfect, nor am I saying that it is excusable for them to put out this resin material with so many defects, but at the end of the day, if its messed up you will get another one, and if that one is messed up you will get another after that. Sure, you may have to wait a bit to finally get that perfect cast, but in the meantime you will basically be getting free bits / models.

That is correct
I always stare at avatars while typing being so proficient a touch typist and all.

Some of us have this thing called "peripheral vision" aka "seeing something in the corner of your eye".
It is what people with tunnel vision lack.

I could also turn that into an analogy but that would also require explaination

And yet you typed a reply, despite being annoyed by my avatar and stating that you cannot suffer to stay on this page. I can make a passive-aggressive comment on your lack of concentration and logical reasoning, but I think it is self-explanatory.

Hint: don't use your "peripheral vision" as an "excuse" on not having a "point". (^__^)

As an additional insight on your cute excuses I shall insert a printscreen of what one sees when typing a reply:



Note the lack of, I don't know.... avatars? So your lame excuse just got lamer. It must be a feat for you to not be distracted by the moving orkmoticons on the left side of the screen.

By going off the thread's quick reply and into the full reply mode

Seriously it is a distraction. As is this bickering for others who will find it tedious so it is time to drop it
If you have anything else to say on the matter do so via pm

You know what, I started typing a reasonable answer to your suggestion.
But I realized that easily distracted people are easily distracted, and they would make any damnable excuse because they can't make a point. Hell, I have ADD and I have a longer attention span than you. So either you're a very lame liar, or you have the attention span of a starfish. In any case, not good.


Here are more distractions, in case my avatar is not enough. They'll work even if you have tunnel vision. Hopefully they shock you into oblivion that you'll make a reasonable reply:




Seriously, you were the only one distracted by it. I was only asking for you to elaborate your point, in which you have failed and just given me passive-aggressive answers. When making up excuses, at least have the decency to make good, or failing that, creative ones (ooh sorry I'm drunk, I'm riding a unicorn and this is awesome. I'm also a cyclops with a cataract so I only have peripheral vision. And I'm Thomas Edison.).

You know, replying with a decent answer would've avoided this tangent in the first place.

@starsdawn: Please do not spam the forum. It is against our rules.

starsdawn wrote:
You know, replying with a decent answer would've avoided this tangent in the first place.

So would not acting like a 10 year old.

Jburch wrote:I guess not everyone looks at Finecast the way I do. Let me give my latest example :

I bought a finecast Tyranid Hive Tyrant about a month ago. Upon recieving it, and looking over the model, I noticed that there was a miscast of the spikes on his left leg. I called GW, and asked for a replacement leg. I told them I would send them pics, or send the part back to them if need be, but they told me not to worry about it and they would get a replacement part out to me shortly. A few days later, I recieve a brand new Hive Tyrant. So now I have 2 Finecast Hive tyrants for the price of 1. The one thats leg was messed up is still perfectly useable, and I got twice the amount of bits that come along with the Tyrant. Also I did a comparison, and the details are much crisper on the finecast vs the metal, and the model is 10000 times easier to put together.

I am not saying that GW is perfect, nor am I saying that it is excusable for them to put out this resin material with so many defects, but at the end of the day, if its messed up you will get another one, and if that one is messed up you will get another after that. Sure, you may have to wait a bit to finally get that perfect cast, but in the meantime you will basically be getting free bits / models.

How can Finecast provide crisper detail although they use the same mould as metal?

And you do know Metal wuhile hot runs everywhere so you dont get half casted hands and feet like you do with Finecast?

sebigboss79 wrote:

How can Finecast provide crisper detail although they use the same mould as metal?

Apparently the metal used by GW contracts slightly as it cool......or some-such.

GW do have a history of excelent customer service. If you have an issue with a finecast minuture I would advise you to send it with a letter of complaint to GW HQ. Bubbles in resin are a fault and any bubbles can be eliminated during the casting process and hopefully they soon will be.

12thRonin wrote:

starsdawn wrote:
You know, replying with a decent answer would've avoided this tangent in the first place.

So would not acting like a 10 year old.

Replying to a tangent with a tangent. Preaching to the choir, brother.

sebigboss79 wrote:How can Finecast provide crisper detail although they use the same mould as metal?

Think of it this way: using the same mold, cast your hand once first with normal plaster of Paris (the cheapest kind) and then with dental plaster (the orange-y, yellow ochre-y kind). Same mold, but you'll get different results in terms of detail retained.

Actually, they don't use the same mold. From what has been said, they created new molds but use the old "masters" (original model the molds for metal miniatures were made from). This means that the new resins "should" have crisper detail in most cases (especially older models) and would also inherit any design flaws that the master sculpt had. This is why King Liquor and the Green Knight still don't fit correctly in resin.

Shipping out defective Finecast is the Microsoft Model of product deployment.

In short, you know that there are problems with the product when you ship it out the door. But you also know that if you ship it out the door that you will get $$$ for it. So yes, some customers will point out flaws. You provide solutions for them, but all the while you are PAID since lots of your models are selling and not being returned.

The moral of the story?

When you ship before a product is ready, you are making money on it right now.

If you wait until it is perfect, well, you are making NO money on it because there's nothing for the customer to buy.

It is a numbers game. Some Finecast is good and is no problem. Some is flawed - of the flawed Finecast, some of it is going to be returned (no big deal since it was going in the trash anyway) but some of it will be kept by the consumer (My Chaos Guy with a bubble flaw in his face looks KOOL). Either way you make money.

Presumably, future batches of Finecast will be better. Those that buy the product now are essentially paying for the R&D.

Not saying this is a great idea. Just saying that this is the mentality - driven as usual by money.