I feel like this is the general attitude toward GW. I am not usually one of those people that goes about blasting or supporting GW but it appears to me there is a general attitude of GW can do no right. I make the case that GW is actually listening to some of our concerns now in an article on my blog Capture and Control: Poor GW can't do Anything Right can They?. If you want to read the whole thing feel free but here is a synopsis. GW has gotten better about FAQs than they have been the past; in 4th and the beginning of 5th ed 40k for example FAQs left much to be desired. WHFB had FAQs ready almost immediately after 7th ed came out! The Ard Boyz semi-final missions were an absolute mess, but they slowly changed them it would appear due to the outcry by many of us. Can it truly be that GW just gets a bad rap no matter what? It is beginning to look that way to me, maybe I am alone here.

*edit: Grammar fail.

It's the vocal minority on the internet syndrome. While we hear a great deal about the bads, the number of individuals that are speaking negatively are actually a smaller percentage of the player base than we may think. On the note of GW changing their attitudes, it's true, they have gotten better.

OverwatchCNC wrote: maybe I am alone here.

You are alone.


Even if they made the best FAQs in the univese and coated them in diamond dust it still wouldn't change all the other negatives that exist.

FAQs are the least of their problems...

That's not entirly true. Why the thread about the new naval game is basically just 10 pages ranting about GWs information policy, people usually go nuts for new models. The feedback for the entire Dark Eldar range was very positive.

CT GAMER wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote: maybe I am alone here.

You are alone.


Even if they made the best FAQs in the univese and coated them in diamond dust it still wouldn't change all the other negatives that exist.

FAQs are the least of their problems...

There are bads, but I'm pretty certain I agree that GW would get a bad rap if they shat gold and mailed it to their customers because it smelled bad.

ToI wrote:It's the vocal minority on the internet syndrome. While we hear a great deal about the bads, the number of individuals that are speaking negatively are actually a smaller percentage of the player base than we may think. On the note of GW changing their attitudes, it's true, they have gotten better.

QFT. There's a host of people who may have problems with GW, but it's pretty rare for each of these problems to be 100% the same in most of the individuals. Even then, the one I often see the most isn't even completely GW's fault; Matt Ward.

I'm hoping with Mantic's upcoming Warpath game GW will realize that they are no longer "the hobby". This will in turn light a fire under their butts and actually start pricing stuff competitively and start interacting with the community more.

@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

ToI wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote: maybe I am alone here.

You are alone.


Even if they made the best FAQs in the univese and coated them in diamond dust it still wouldn't change all the other negatives that exist.

FAQs are the least of their problems...

There are bads, but I'm pretty certain I agree that GW would get a bad rap if they shat gold and mailed it to their customers because it smelled bad.

That is because before they mailed it they would tell you it was the finest cast shat in the world, only when you got it it would be full of air bubbles and badly deformed...

As a point to consider, people generally only comment when they're really unhappy or (less commonly) when they're really happy. The 'Meh' masses don't say much.

pretre wrote:@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

Well I hope it won't turn into an all out flame war, that certainly wasn't my intention.

Balance wrote:As a point to consider, people generally only comment when they're really unhappy or (less commonly) when they're really happy. The 'Meh' masses don't say much.

That is a valid point. The "meh" or silent majority rarely write comments on topics like this. I guess I have grown tired of hearing nothing but GW hate all over the place, especially when I don't think they are all that bad, not great or awesome, but certainly not terrible.

i don't know about people in other areas but i have found primarily GW's bad rap is more internet based than anything, i've heard the occasional complaint about them being to expensive but thats about as far as it goes.

girgam wrote:i don't know about people in other areas but i have found primarily GW's bad rap is more internet based than anything, i've heard the occasional complaint about them being to expensive but thats about as far as it goes.

Nice Avatar!

I don't hear too much in person either. There are a few guys at our FLGS that complain but they are sort of complainers as it is.

No, they can't do anything right! Pathetic failures... Bah! I spit on their horrible attempts at providing entertainment and laugh as they cry and hide in shame. SHAME ON YOU GW!

Honestly, people will complain about anything because it's just so much easier and more stress relieving to complain about something than it is to praise the things you like. It's also a lot of fun to exaggerate.
If Games Workshop were really as bad as the Internet says they are we would all be painting badly sculpted styrofoam with paints tested on baby squirrels in secret laboratories hidden somewhere in a lava filled volcano lair...

OverwatchCNC wrote:That is a valid point. The "meh" or silent majority rarely write comments on topics like this. I guess I have grown tired of hearing nothing but GW hate all over the place, especially when I don't think they are all that bad, not great or awesome, but certainly not terrible.

I dislike a lot of their stuff, and am generally burned out on the setting, but I try to say "That's a neat design!" even though it's not my current style. Of course, I can claim to be working in the industry, however peripherally, and thus am a biased con-artist who speaks in nothing but lies.

Or am I?

Balance wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:That is a valid point. The "meh" or silent majority rarely write comments on topics like this. I guess I have grown tired of hearing nothing but GW hate all over the place, especially when I don't think they are all that bad, not great or awesome, but certainly not terrible.

I dislike a lot of their stuff, and am generally burned out on the setting, but I try to say "That's a neat design!" even though it's not my current style. Of course, I can claim to be working in the industry, however peripherally, and thus am a biased con-artist who speaks in nothing but lies.

Or am I?

Ha! I see what you did there.

CT GAMER wrote:

ToI wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote: maybe I am alone here.

You are alone.


Even if they made the best FAQs in the univese and coated them in diamond dust it still wouldn't change all the other negatives that exist.

FAQs are the least of their problems...

There are bads, but I'm pretty certain I agree that GW would get a bad rap if they shat gold and mailed it to their customers because it smelled bad.

That is because before they mailed it they would tell you it was the finest cast shat in the world, only when you got it it would be full of air bubbles and badly deformed...

Ok, really? Everyone makes mistakes and we all know Finecast was a rough start for GW, that's not what this is about. And I repeat, if you got a lump of gold the size of your fist in the mail would you complain that it had air bubbles or wasn't cast into a bar for you? And don't go off about fine cast...

To summarise the thread:

People who dislike GW, their policies and, in fact, anything they do can be instantly dismissed as a smaller fringe minority group whose opinions don't matter, whose grievances are invalid and who's criticisms lack merit. Back to the pile!!!



I've got a better strategy. It's called "credit where credit's due". People may want to dismiss me as a mindless hater who thinks everything GW does is an affront to human decency (that's crap, only most of what they do fits that bill ), but that's simply not true. I will always give credit where credit's due, and whenever GW makes something that is really cool or starts to do something new that could be considered quite revolutionary from a model design perspective, I will celebrate it.

But don't expect me to sit back and take all the endless bs (bad rules, price rises, mother-fething embargoes) in silence.

Heh, I agree with the OP. Sure, they do some things poorly, but they also do some things very very well. They're a miniature making company and, at the end of the day, they make nice miniatures. Sure, we may not like all of it, but there will always be something we like, so job done on their part.

There are issues with everything, be it GW or global politics, and people will nay-say about everything that comes along... me, I think GW is likely as miffed about this finecast thing as the rest of us. It's an annoyance for us, a serious embarrassment for them... you can get a new mini relatively easily, and it may take time to get one right, but when you do get a good one it's a damn good mini. And they will keep trying 'til you get what you wanted, despite the fact that they'll be waiting years to earn back the ratings they lost over finecast. They can't be all that bad then, surely.

What more do you want, free cake when you go into a GW store? 'cause they've done that before, too

Still, it'd be nice to have a game in their secret, evil volcano lair sometime.

Hückleberry wrote:I'm hoping with Mantic's upcoming Warpath game GW will realize that they are no longer "the hobby".

I'm wondering why you'd think Mantic would be the ones to make them realize this when Rackham, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli, Wyrd, Spartan Games, and countless other companies weren't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:To summarise the thread:

People who dislike GW, their policies and, in fact, anything they do can be instantly dismissed as a smaller fringe minority group whose opinions don't matter, whose grievances are invalid and who's criticisms lack merit. Back to the pile!!!



I've got a better strategy. It's called "credit where credit's due". People may want to dismiss me as a mindless hater who thinks everything GW does is an affront to human decency (that's crap, only most of what they do fits that bill ), but that's simply not true. I will always give credit where credit's due, and whenever GW makes something that is really cool or starts to do something new that could be considered quite revolutionary from a model design perspective, I will celebrate it.

But don't expect me to sit back and take all the endless bs (bad rules, price rises, mother-fething embargoes) in silence.

You site good references there. I don't expect everyone to be in love with GW. I was only making the observation that it seems, despite their attempts to please us, some people are never pleased. Obviously you do not fit this bill. The Fortress of Redemption is easily one of the best kits they have put out, despite my not being a huge fan of Planetstrike.

I'd work to make sure you're not confusing some people being displeased with any given release, and a set group of people being displeased with everything.

There are a couple hundred regular posters here. Even if only 5% hate a model, there will be posts.

Polonius wrote:I'd work to make sure you're not confusing some people being displeased with any given release, and a set group of people being displeased with everything.

There are a couple hundred regular posters here. Even if only 5% hate a model, there will be posts.

I know. I wanted to point out that I believed GW is actually trying to do things right. Some people will always espouse that GW is not even trying but I find that assertion unfair and wanted to point out why I believe that.

I think Games Workshop does a few things really well, most things fairly, a few things poorly, and a few things quite badly - but their FAQ releases have been on the better end of the spectrum. Much more frequent releases. Some of them are still sort of ambiguous but that's the nature of the beast.

I don't buy the perception that there are a lot of "haters" who spend all day loathing everything GW does simply as a thing to do. I think there are a lot of people who are passionate about the HHHobby who get upset about some of the things that GW does which really are screwed up. By any dispassionate measure, their ROW shipping policy does suck. By any dispassionate measure, moving to a cheaper material while jacking prices significantly does suck. The fact that WD now gets sent to paying subscribers after people off the street can buy them... well, you get the idea.

It's human nature to try and label something, but boxing people into haters and fanboys generally says more about your lack of perception and open-mindedness then it does about the actual dynamics of GW's fanbase.

GW earned that reputation. And around me, no its not just on the internet.

carmachu wrote: And around me, no its not just on the internet.

Same. Even the smaller, private clubs are starting to talk/complain about it.

Platuan4th wrote:

carmachu wrote: And around me, no its not just on the internet.

Same. Even the smaller, private clubs are starting to talk/complain about it.

Alot of older players, long time ones have alot of complaints about GW. Even the new guy, who was so gung ho about GW after a while found that the longer you played GW games, the more GW does something that just pisses on and/or off part or many of its customer base.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'd work to make sure you're not confusing some people being displeased with any given release, and a set group of people being displeased with everything.

There are a couple hundred regular posters here. Even if only 5% hate a model, there will be posts.

I know. I wanted to point out that I believed GW is actually trying to do things right. Some people will always espouse that GW is not even trying but I find that assertion unfair and wanted to point out why I believe that.

GW does do certain things right. Their return policy is excellent. I also still believe overall that lower management is pretty decent as well.

But I agree with H.B.M.C. I give credit when credit is due and I vote with my wallet to show my displeasure or approval.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'd work to make sure you're not confusing some people being displeased with any given release, and a set group of people being displeased with everything.

There are a couple hundred regular posters here. Even if only 5% hate a model, there will be posts.

I know. I wanted to point out that I believed GW is actually trying to do things right. Some people will always espouse that GW is not even trying but I find that assertion unfair and wanted to point out why I believe that.

No. It's not unfair, they have earned every bit of scorne they deserve.

I would give them credit, if it were due. Too bad they haven't knocked my socks off for that to happen, yet.

H.B.M.C. wrote:To summarise the thread:

People who dislike GW, their policies and, in fact, anything they do can be instantly dismissed as a smaller fringe minority group whose opinions don't matter, whose grievances are invalid and who's criticisms lack merit. Back to the pile!!!



I've got a better strategy. It's called "credit where credit's due". People may want to dismiss me as a mindless hater who thinks everything GW does is an affront to human decency (that's crap, only most of what they do fits that bill ), but that's simply not true. I will always give credit where credit's due, and whenever GW makes something that is really cool or starts to do something new that could be considered quite revolutionary from a model design perspective, I will celebrate it.

But don't expect me to sit back and take all the endless bs (bad rules, price rises, mother-fething embargoes) in silence.

I'm in the same boat as well, give credit where its due. The negative tone of my comments on Dakka stems from the fact that I have high expectations with anything I like and thus are brutally honest with my posts (I don't believe in sugar coating even if I really like something). I also agree with Ouze and categorising people into simple "us and them" categories shows poor form.

In regards to GW itself, the main reason I left was due to their policies (embargo, price rise, bad releases etc). I still admit they still make good sculpts (like the recent Tzeentch Herald). The problems is I strictly collect and convert Chaos Space Marines and am also a bit of a rules buff. There hasn't been a new CSM miniature release in quite a while and the current CSM codex sucks. Now if I lived in a non ROW country and collected a faction other than CSM (like Vanilla Space Marines), there'd be a small possibility that I'd still be collecting GW products. Although I have too admit the grass is pretty green on the PP side of the fence so I'm glad I GW made me leave GW!

candy.man wrote:Although I have too admit the grass is pretty green on the PP side of the fence so I'm glad I GW made me leave GW!

Same boat here, except that Warmahordes holds no real interest for me (I do like the Skorne and Cryx aesthetic though). Instead we all gravitated towards FFG and the 40K RPG's. It's still 40K - so we're getting our fix there - but isn't subject to the whims of the GW design team. We get to be more creative, more free-form, and build models to make fancy characters rather than block-squads for a net-deck army list.

It's worked out pretty well so far - we're having our third game in as many weeks tomorrow - and it's worked out even better for me given I'm now writing for FFG! Can't complain there!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

candy.man wrote:Although I have too admit the grass is pretty green on the PP side of the fence so I'm glad I GW made me leave GW!

Same boat here, except that Warmahordes holds no real interest for me (I do like the Skorne and Cryx aesthetic though).

Have you tried a game yet?

Not calling you out or anything, just we had someone in our group who kept saying something similar until she tried it. Now she's buying a Menoth army for our Journeyman League. Sometimes that demo is what pushes you over the edge, y'know?

Don't get me wrong - I make no judgement on the game's quality or anything like that. In order to be interested in something I have to like the lore, the aesthetic, the potential story-lines and so on. This isn't to say that those things within Warmachine/Hordes aren't good, just that they don't appeal to me personally.

By the same token, as I've said in the past, 40K is terrible game with a shoddy slap-dash ruleset that could do with a few good proof-reads, but that doesn't mean I dislike 40K. As I said, I think the Skorne and Cryx stuff looks amazing (I even own a few Cryx and one Skorne model), but it just doesn't interest me, much like AT-43 didn't interest me even though I loved the look of the Therians.

H.B.M.C are you a writer, artist, game designer? Since you mentioned something about that aspect in your previous post.

Can it truly be that GW just gets a bad rap no matter what?

Depends
There are some I guess that may slag off the useless duffers no matter what they do
Some give credit where credit is due.
Some support GW no matter what.

My guess is that it is a bell curve.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't get me wrong - I make no judgement on the game's quality or anything like that. In order to be interested in something I have to like the lore, the aesthetic, the potential story-lines and so on. This isn't to say that those things within Warmachine/Hordes aren't good, just that they don't appeal to me personally.

Hey, that's totally cool. Glad to see that some people can not want to play a game without bashing it on this site.

There's very little I can go into due to NDA's and whatnot, but I started out play-testing for them, that moved to proof-reading books (one of which has just come out, The Achilus Assault), and now I've started writing for them as a free-lance writer. Again, can't talk about what I'm working on, but I did write a (tiny) bit of Church of the Damned, which came out a month or so back.

That's all I can say at this point really.

Edit: HBMC clarified himself and Ninja'd me at the same time.

Class act, that one.

H.B.M.C. wrote:To summarise the thread:

People who dislike GW, their policies and, in fact, anything they do can be instantly dismissed as a smaller fringe minority group whose opinions don't matter, whose grievances are invalid and who's criticisms lack merit. Back to the pile!!!



I've got a better strategy. It's called "credit where credit's due". People may want to dismiss me as a mindless hater who thinks everything GW does is an affront to human decency (that's crap, only most of what they do fits that bill ), but that's simply not true. I will always give credit where credit's due, and whenever GW makes something that is really cool or starts to do something new that could be considered quite revolutionary from a model design perspective, I will celebrate it.

But don't expect me to sit back and take all the endless bs (bad rules, price rises, mother-fething embargoes) in silence.

+1
I have played GW games and 40K since the early ninties. I have spent thousands of doallars on GW product.

I love much that they do and have created, and stll collect orks and play 40K semi-regularly.

However I also am able to acknowledge the many stupid, irritating, confusing and unpleasant things that GW does or has done, and I call bs when I see it.

What I find funny is that if you have ANY issues at all with GW that somehow you are "fringe" and a "hater" and someone who "complains just to complain".

I can like GW without being an apologist/fanboi just like I can complain without being a "hater/fringer". It isn't as black and white as some apologists/fanbois want to make it out to be, no matter how hard they don the "intenert cool guy" stance...

+1 on the above.

I wrote a pretty lengthy response in a previous, almost identical discussion a few weeks ago. I think with perhaps almost no exceptions, almost everyone here would have started with a positive or at least willing attitude towards GW. We have collected the miniatures over the years, and enjoyed gaming with them. However, one thing or another has come along, I would call it an 'assault' actually in terms of the number of customer-related blunders the company made a few months ago. I'm not going to go into them at all again here, but for me living in a country with no official GW presence, the change of RoW policy (embargo, or whatever, call it what you will) has made it effectively impossible for me to buy GW products at a sane price. That's it, in a nutshell. Aside from all the other policy changes which were steering me away from them, GW has made that decision for me.

The residual ill-will that still falls against GW is a result of changes in the company over the past few years. I'm not going to sit here, stick my fingers in my ears and sing 'lalalalla' and pretend everything is fine and dandy. I was, and still am, a fan of the company and when they continue on a path that is placing their future in jeopardy it's hardly surprising that both myself and others can get irate about it. It's not mindless 'hating', and GW didn't steal my girlfriend, it is simply cause and effect.

+1 as well.

I don't really feel the "hate" is hate, but disenchantment with GW.

It's like watching an older brother as you grow up: when you're young, he can do no wrong, but as you get older and gain more understanding of the world, you actually watch how he treats people/girlfriends, see the things he does in a new light and suddenly realize he's not the person you thought he was as a kid.

GW moreso than any other hobby I have been involved in, has earned much of its scorn.

Other than a brief return in 2005, I was last into this hobby back in 2001. This is what greeted me upon my return:

Increased prices for fewer guys in a box. Now, GW has always been kind of expensive, but lately they have really started to cross into dangerous territory. Dangerous in the sense that people aren't going to bother getting new armies because they are too cost prohibitive. I know I decided to say forget it to my plans for a CSM force, and will just fill out what I've got already. You can only chrun so many boxed sets out onto kids before you really need to look at customer retention.

Metal gone, and a dubious quality resin in its place. Yes, mistakes happen. But they should have happened last year, when GW was supposed to be testing this stuff. It isn't like resin miniatures are made out of some magical secret formula, or have never been done before. How is it I have a bunch of Forge World stuff that is cast perfectly fine, with no warps, bubbles, cracks or bends that were made nearly a decade ago? This level of quality would be unacceptable from a minor market player like Mantic, let alone the self proclaimed King of the Hobby. The Finecast launch, from what I can tell, is a disaster that should have cost several people their jobs.

White Dwarf. Good Lord, I could not believe what it has become. $9 for an advertisement. Nine. Dollars. The only semi useful thing in that magazine was the sisters codex, and there was only half of it (and I don't even play sisters anyways). And then, to find out that anyone who is actually subscribing to it gets it after it comes out in the store? Surely you jest.

An insane war against their retailers. Freeloaders? Are you bloody kidding me? If it wasn't for independent retailers and mail order, Warhammer would barely even exist in the USA. I don't even know where to begin with this, it is so backwards and self defeating. If GW goes under, future MBA students will study their downfall and point to this as the reason.

Media blackout on new and upcoming releases. Because the surest way to generate buzz and interest in your products is to keep them classified top secret.

Poor quality. My IoB set was mispacked with two identical sprues and another one that was broken. GW customer service was rather unpleasant to deal with, and I've been waiting over a week for them to get shipped to me. Their official response? It will show up eventually, call back in two weeks. Oh. Nice.

Slashing expenses to the bone while jacking prices so you can claim the same level of sales and pay a dividend when the CEO is a major shareholder? I read about companies that did this sort of nonsense in MBA school. They don't exist anymore.


So there you have it. This is the impression of GW that I have after about 6 weeks back in the folds of the Warhammer hobby. I'm going to keep playing because I really do like the lore, but I don't have blinders on. I would also like to end on a positive note, nothing that I have mentioned is irreversible and unfix-able. If GW is willing to do some deep self examination and make changes, they have the potential to soar higher than ever. But things will have to change for that to happen.

pretre wrote:@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

agreed, Even now, the forces of hatred have been alerted to a discussion where they haven't pissed all over GW. Soon the dark hordes will mass and we'll hear the same old stories once again.

mikhaila wrote:

pretre wrote:@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

agreed, Even now, the forces of hatred have been alerted to a discussion where they haven't pissed all over GW. Soon the dark hordes will mass and we'll hear the same old stories once again.

But have no fear the fanboi champions will soon arrive riding on the backs of finecast steeds to defend GW's honor...

mikhaila wrote:

pretre wrote:@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

agreed, Even now, the forces of hatred have been alerted to a discussion where they haven't pissed all over GW. Soon the dark hordes will mass and we'll hear the same old stories once again.

CT GAMER wrote:

But have no fear the fanboi champions will soon arrive riding on the backs of finecast steeds to defend GW's honor...

Can we not pre-flame the trolls? Thanks.

Platuan4th wrote:+1 as well.

I don't really feel the "hate" is hate, but disenchantment with GW.

It's like watching an older brother as you grow up: when you're young, he can do no wrong, but as you get older and gain more understanding of the world, you actually watch how he treats people/girlfriends, see the things he does in a new light and suddenly realize he's not the person you thought he was as a kid.

I like your wording. Disenchantment or perhaps disenfranchisement, I like that much better than haters. I will certainly be more careful about wording that in the future to maintain the accuracy of my statements.

CT GAMER wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

pretre wrote:@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

agreed, Even now, the forces of hatred have been alerted to a discussion where they haven't pissed all over GW. Soon the dark hordes will mass and we'll hear the same old stories once again.

But have no fear the fanboi champions will soon arrive riding on the backs of finecast steeds to defend GW's honor...

Sigh, once again my intention was not a flame war, I hope you're wrong but am prepared to be proven otherwise. You made a good argument earlier about how you can maintain your appeal in the game without being a fanboi, letting people know you aren't happy with something GW has done certainly doesn't make you automatically a hater. The haters are truly only the people who will get on BoLS or here and rip GW in every GW related post simply because, I would not put you or HBMC or really any others in the thread so far into that category. I appreciate those people who will bother to explain their dislike of certain aspects of GW, and their games rather than just spew forth vitriol and hate with no thought to anything positive. If you truly find nothing positive then ok but to appear in every thread possible to flame the same thing over and over is a bit over the top. I appreciate everyone's candor and polite discussion thus far and thanks to those of you who have commented on the article itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

pretre wrote:@OP: You're not alone, but this won't end well.

agreed, Even now, the forces of hatred have been alerted to a discussion where they haven't pissed all over GW. Soon the dark hordes will mass and we'll hear the same old stories once again.

CT GAMER wrote:

But have no fear the fanboi champions will soon arrive riding on the backs of finecast steeds to defend GW's honor...

Can we not pre-flame the trolls? Thanks.

How would one go about doing that? And does this mean such an action would be sanctioned by the Mods?

Eh, certain threads attract certain people who like to call each
other out. Both parties then inhabit the behaviors that they're
getting flamed for, and then both parties hit yellow triangles like
it's the end of the world.

I only hit yellow triangles on one special member's posts.

malfred wrote:Eh, certain threads attract certain people who like to call each
other out. Both parties then inhabit the behaviors that they're
getting flamed for, and then both parties hit yellow triangles like
it's the end of the world.

Oh man, that gets a sig for sure.

I only post yellow triangles on special members.

But that is another story.

Major problem is that GW systematically eliminates all feedback and control loops like playtesting, proof reading, early WIP pics, forums, critical people and independent minds within the organisation etc. And it shows.

Personally, I mostly like the designers work (except e.g. Mat Ward's fluff writing) but find the higher management decisions worse than if done randomly, severely hurting sales of the company.

girgam wrote:i don't know about people in other areas but i have found primarily GW's bad rap is more internet based than anything, i've heard the occasional complaint about them being to expensive but thats about as far as it goes.

I agree.

If you read White Dwarf, it is fairly supportive of GW's efforts most of the time.

CT GAMER wrote:

But have no fear the fanboi champions will soon arrive riding on the backs of finecast steeds to defend GW's honor...

Can we not pre-flame the trolls? Thanks.

Phobos wrote:GW moreso than any other hobby I have been involved in, has earned much of its scorn.

Other than a brief return in 2005, I was last into this hobby back in 2001. This is what greeted me upon my return:

Increased prices for fewer guys in a box. Now, GW has always been kind of expensive, but lately they have really started to cross into dangerous territory. Dangerous in the sense that people aren't going to bother getting new armies because they are too cost prohibitive. I know I decided to say forget it to my plans for a CSM force, and will just fill out what I've got already. You can only chrun so many boxed sets out onto kids before you really need to look at customer retention.

Metal gone, and a dubious quality resin in its place. Yes, mistakes happen. But they should have happened last year, when GW was supposed to be testing this stuff. It isn't like resin miniatures are made out of some magical secret formula, or have never been done before. How is it I have a bunch of Forge World stuff that is cast perfectly fine, with no warps, bubbles, cracks or bends that were made nearly a decade ago? This level of quality would be unacceptable from a minor market player like Mantic, let alone the self proclaimed King of the Hobby. The Finecast launch, from what I can tell, is a disaster that should have cost several people their jobs.

White Dwarf. Good Lord, I could not believe what it has become. $9 for an advertisement. Nine. Dollars. The only semi useful thing in that magazine was the sisters codex, and there was only half of it (and I don't even play sisters anyways). And then, to find out that anyone who is actually subscribing to it gets it after it comes out in the store? Surely you jest.

An insane war against their retailers. Freeloaders? Are you bloody kidding me? If it wasn't for independent retailers and mail order, Warhammer would barely even exist in the USA. I don't even know where to begin with this, it is so backwards and self defeating. If GW goes under, future MBA students will study their downfall and point to this as the reason.

Media blackout on new and upcoming releases. Because the surest way to generate buzz and interest in your products is to keep them classified top secret.

Poor quality. My IoB set was mispacked with two identical sprues and another one that was broken. GW customer service was rather unpleasant to deal with, and I've been waiting over a week for them to get shipped to me. Their official response? It will show up eventually, call back in two weeks. Oh. Nice.

Slashing expenses to the bone while jacking prices so you can claim the same level of sales and pay a dividend when the CEO is a major shareholder? I read about companies that did this sort of nonsense in MBA school. They don't exist anymore.


So there you have it. This is the impression of GW that I have after about 6 weeks back in the folds of the Warhammer hobby. I'm going to keep playing because I really do like the lore, but I don't have blinders on. I would also like to end on a positive note, nothing that I have mentioned is irreversible and unfix-able. If GW is willing to do some deep self examination and make changes, they have the potential to soar higher than ever. But things will have to change for that to happen.

I guarantee you that GW does all these things because they want: and I quote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
You site good references there. I don't expect everyone to be in love with GW. I was only making the observation that it seems, despite their attempts to please us, some people are never pleased..

Really either the OP is totally unaware of what GW does or just doesnt want to look at it with critical eyes.

I dont hate GW but I dont love it either... its my hobby and its their business so my money talks first.

GW can't do anything right can they?

They could if they tried.

The only thing that is keeping them in business is the quality of their artists, both the sculptors and writers (appart from Mat Ward that is), appart from that, their last good decision they made from a gaming stand point was the launch of BFG.

I see plenty of positive statements regarding GW on the internet.
It is not really an problem. The negatives just get foregrounded in the minds of some supporters so they notice it and subsequently become more sensitive to further negative posts.

Being the internet, any dissent from one's own viewpoint is labelled as whining or hate. Which sparks off the counter attacks.

The pro GW lobby confuse dissatisfaction with GW managerial policies as an irrational dislike or hatred of the game.
It is not the same thing. As has been said, the game/models/fluff is seen positively just not the way the business is carried out.
People are entitled to a different point of view.
They are entitled to express that view.
No organisation gets everything right and by implication, GW don't get everything wrong.

So in answer to the thread's rhetorical question:
Yes, actually they can so don't worry about it.

They do lots of things right, notably in terms of sculpting, but for me GW is currently failing in three key areas...

a) Pricing their products based on "willingness to pay"
b) Abandoning the hobby side of the game (e.g. making scenery out of foam core, balsa wood etc) in favour of plastic, plastic and more plastic (this one of the reasons WD is so boring to read now)
c) Increasing lack of two way communication with players. They have basically limited themselves to monthly announcements along the lines of "Here is a cool new product. Please buy it."

I was going to add consistency of writing (or lack there of), particularly the inability to stick to one format for more than two codexes / army books, but they might be improving here. O&G, TK & OK all adopted the same approach and the books were well put together with new units and new background material.

Flashman wrote:They do lots of things right, notably in terms of sculpting, but for me GW is currently failing in three key areas...

a) Pricing their products based on "willingness to pay"
b) Abandoning the hobby side of the game (e.g. making scenery out of foam core, balsa wood etc) in favour of plastic, plastic and more plastic (this one of the reasons WD is so boring to read now)
c) Increasing lack of two way communication with players. They have basically limited themselves to monthly announcements along the lines of "Here is a cool new product. Please buy it."

I was going to add consistency of writing (or lack there of), particularly the inability to stick to one format for more than two codexes / army books, but they might be improving here. O&G, TK & OK all adopted the same approach and the books were well put together with new units and new background material.

I agree with all of that except "b" which I still partially agree with. I never found the foam core scenery that WD did all that interesting, the best scenery that is scratch built I found here on Dakka and other places. I also really like GW's plastic terrain and have always found WD to be pretty blah, even before it become one large ad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:By the same token, as I've said in the past, 40K is terrible game with a shoddy slap-dash ruleset that could do with a few good proof-reads, but that doesn't mean I dislike 40K.

I think this is a point that largely gets overlooked in the 'GW Haterz' threads. GW's diversification from their core 'game' (into pen&paper, PC/Console, and Black Library) allows people to enjoy the 40k mythos without the plastic men. And these other outlets also seem hugely successful.

I personally dislike the 40k tabletop game. It's streamlined to the point of simplistic, the lack of unit synergies makes gameplay devolve into a 'you do this , so I do this, so you do THIS' that is resolved with whoever rolls the biggest bucket of dice first, and the miniatures are becoming more expensive in a game system that rewards spamming 'good units' resulting in mono-look army lists.

This does not mean I've stopped enjoying, and giving money to, GW, however. I've logged 30 hours already on Space Marine, I'm finishing up Nagash Immortal, and I'll continue to buy just about every Black Library release.

None of this is going to get me anywhere near the tabletop with them again, however. The beauty is that I don't have to.

Don't wish to discuss the new game nautical game being announced tomorrow. Not sure what it is as it is a secret to be revealed tomorrow. all very hush hush and huggermugger.
There is already a thread for that so I assume the video I have just seen is mentioned there.

What I would like to say is that the video is very poorly conceived.
It looks cheap and shoddy and it would have been better simply to issue a written statement.

The problem is when it comes to communications GW seem absolutely clueless.
One of those things they cannot get right.

The game might be brilliant for all I know, but cruddy videos are still a fair target for criticism.

ops wrong thread...

This is what they've been doing lately before 'big releases'.

It's just intended to be something to hype it up. The production values are low, but if you expect to see SWTOR's "Hope" or "Deceived" done for each GW release...you're in for a shocker.

As a Tyranid player, I think that after getting a load of minis with rules spread across almost £100 worth of Apocalypse publications, there's a fair grievance that almost all of those rules were simply struck away by the new Codex and still not sorted out.

If a video game publisher released a load of pricey DLC and then a new patch for the game rendered the DLC incompatible except for the pretty menu screens, the publisher would be crucified.

Kanluwen wrote:This is what they've been doing lately before 'big releases'.

It's just intended to be something to hype it up. The production values are low, but if you expect to see SWTOR's "Hope" or "Deceived" done for each GW release...you're in for a shocker.

Don't know what SWOTR is

Like I say, don't wish to drag the thread OT
My point is more that they have executed the marketing poorly. Yet for some it will still be a case of "GW hate" to say so.
Whereas it is a valid expression of an opinion and nothing more.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

NAVARRO wrote:wrong thread...

and JUST what is wrong with this thread exactly?
Not good enough for you is it?

pfff Haters gonna hate

Star Wars: The Old Republic. Basically, Bioware had cinema level trailers for its announcements.

I think the vocal minority thing is getting less and less true as time goes on.

There's virtually no-one at my local Gaming Club, which is about 15 minutes away from a GW that buys directly from GW now, and the few that have recently come back and say they're not doing it again due to staff sales tactics.

There's a bunch of us that do still buy from Wayland/Maelstrom etc. But even then, more and more of us are now turning to Ebay to pick up models. Or, in Fantasy's case. Mantic.

However, in saying all that. And I've said it before, if you're over 15/16, you're not the target audience. Little Timmy is, and GW will not change until Little Timmy stops buying.

And, in my opinion, by that point, it'll be too late. One day the price rise will just get so high, that when Timmy comes into the store, dragging his mother in, she'll look at the price for 10 'toy sodjers,' laugh and then walk out.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NAVARRO wrote:wrong thread...

and JUST what is wrong with this thread exactly?
Not good enough for you is it?

pfff Haters gonna hate

We try but looking at GW we are just amateurs

sourclams wrote:

I think this is a point that largely gets overlooked in the 'GW Haterz' threads. GW's diversification from their core 'game' (into pen&paper, PC/Console, and Black Library) allows people to enjoy the 40k mythos without the plastic men. And these other outlets also seem hugely successful.

The problem is....whats hugely sucessful. I'm sure the space marine sold ok, but I doubt it did top anticiapted game numbers like say, halo or Fallout ones. FFG RPG's do ok, but they arent doing paizo's pathfinder sales, to say nothing of WOTC numbers. And so on. Whats hugely successfuil?

Let me see:

better faqs, one amazing realease (dark eldar)

One slap in the face (Finecost/Failcast), one Embargo to south countrys, one price politics to oceania that is dumb, a bunch of overpowered codex (codex creepy increased), prices reaching a critical mass, prices increase in stocked figures, price increases on very old releases, WD-Codex to sell some old figures (who got a price increase). Boxes of 5 marines sold for the same price as 10 marines (and it is not the older cost who go down).

So, they dont do everthing wrong, but the great majority of the things they do ARE bad, and that things speak louder than the good ones (I just give up from an Dark Eldar army, for a matter of self respect, i will not 1/4 of my annual income, in a company who aparently dont want my money).

Example: the Naval game they are ready to release. They will charge an out of market price for it, it will come with a bunch of models, and they will make a very limited edition of them. So, they are acting like bitches. Look at how other companies do it: they charge good prices, and they actually want to sell more of it, not a limited edition.

my opinion;

Well, I was in the GW hobby for exactly 20 years in a row and I'm not sure which one changed GW or me, but I'm out now. I've sold all my armies, all my sprues and models and all my paints and accessories. I doubt I'll be back.

I'm still gaming though, just not with Games Workshop anymore. It was good while it lasted, I guess.

i lasted only 10 years before saying "to hell with it"
mind you I am keeping my Skaven because I love the models for them, and to play past editions at home

carmachu wrote:

sourclams wrote:

I think this is a point that largely gets overlooked in the 'GW Haterz' threads. GW's diversification from their core 'game' (into pen&paper, PC/Console, and Black Library) allows people to enjoy the 40k mythos without the plastic men. And these other outlets also seem hugely successful.

The problem is....whats hugely sucessful. I'm sure the space marine sold ok, but I doubt it did top anticiapted game numbers like say, halo or Fallout ones. FFG RPG's do ok, but they arent doing paizo's pathfinder sales, to say nothing of WOTC numbers. And so on. Whats hugely successfuil?

GW's licensing royalties accounted for less than 3% of revenue in its last report.

It's not clear how they classify royalties -- i.e. do computer games, Black Library and Fantasy Flight games go in there or not?

carmachu wrote:

sourclams wrote:

I think this is a point that largely gets overlooked in the 'GW Haterz' threads. GW's diversification from their core 'game' (into pen&paper, PC/Console, and Black Library) allows people to enjoy the 40k mythos without the plastic men. And these other outlets also seem hugely successful.

The problem is....whats hugely sucessful. I'm sure the space marine sold ok, but I doubt it did top anticiapted game numbers like say, halo or Fallout ones. FFG RPG's do ok, but they arent doing paizo's pathfinder sales, to say nothing of WOTC numbers. And so on. Whats hugely successfuil?

Not "Ultramarines."

oh god that movie was dull

Wow. Lots of good (and imo respectful) replies in here. Dakka, you surprise me!

Anyhow, despite being incredibly enthusiastic for warhammer at an age when I couldn't possibly afford it, my opinion did change like the very true post above with the metaphor of the older brother; I still love their lore, and the overall look and style of the universe, but the rules don't accurately (imo) reflect the universe and style, and the prices and other shenanigans turn me off further from them.

I guess I see their faults as follows:
Minor problems, aka "Stuff that sucks but could be fixed without too much issue"

---Finecast: Have never bought any, and probably never will. With pricing something the same as metal, but with quality control worse then Chinese plastic army men in many cases, I think without a major cost drop or quality improvement, this is a doomed venture.

---White Dwarf: Really, they just need to tone down the ads and start including more fluff, more fun, more non-shilling articles. If White Dwarf had the same type of content as in the old 3rd edition days (Custom vehicle rules, terrain and army tips, battle reports that weren't ads for the newest shiny, etc) I'd subscribe in a heartbeat.

---Rumor crackdowns: If I don't know about a new release, why would I be excited about it?

---Power Creep/slow updates: Again, sometimes this is worse than others. 5th ed 40K is balanced just fine, assuming you're using a 5th ed codex. For everyone else, 9 times out of 10 you're at a significant disadvantadge simply due to outdated rules.

Major problems, aka "Stuff that if it doesn't get fixed, the company will fail"

---Overseas embargo: Again and again I read about people from the land down under and their entire groups wholesale converting to PP or alternative companies because of the ridiculous price dissonance. While I understand that GW was doing this as a slap on the wrist against resellers, honestly this has become cutting off their nose to spite their face: I'm fairly confident they've lost more money by an order of magnitude thanks to the embargo than they would have lost due to resellers.

---Overall price increases: This is the big one, the prime issue that will [Oracle of Doom]spell GW's financial downfall within the next decade and a half.[/Oracle of Doom] As Compel said, GW is leaping and bounding towards the critical mass pricepoint for their boxed models. If they keep raising prices at this rate, especially during a ing economic recession, they're simply winding their own rope. While I'm not of the "OMG!1! $35?? IT SHOULD BE $5!!1" extreme, if they were to reduce their model kits to perhaps twice their at-cost value, or even three times, I'd suspect that'd still be $5-10 cheaper than their current prices, and help reel more sales back in and keep the Little Jimmy market alive and well. I'm not saying they should price at below what they need to make ends meet, but currently they're not pricing for sustainability, they're pricing for profit. Normally, this is fine, but when price outstrips demand, that doesn't magically increase demand...

darkPrince010 wrote:Wow. Lots of good (and imo respectful) replies in here. Dakka, you surprise me!

---Overall price increases: This is the big one, the prime issue that will [Oracle of Doom]spell GW's financial downfall within the next decade and a half.[/Oracle of Doom] As Compel said, GW is leaping and bounding towards the critical mass pricepoint for their boxed models. If they keep raising prices at this rate, especially during a ing economic recession, they're simply winding their own rope. While I'm not of the "OMG!1! $35?? IT SHOULD BE $5!!1" extreme, if they were to reduce their model kits to perhaps twice their at-cost value, or even three times, I'd suspect that'd still be $5-10 cheaper than their current prices, and help reel more sales back in and keep the Little Jimmy market alive and well. I'm not saying they should price at below what they need to make ends meet, but currently they're not pricing for sustainability, they're pricing for profit. Normally, this is fine, but when price outstrips demand, that doesn't magically increase demand...

I have been impressed with the quality of responses and lack of flame attacks here as well!

I think you hit the nail on the head for me with your last bit. I am not a GW apologist/fanboi nor am I a GW apocalyptic, I am definitely in the middle. The price hikes have gotten to be pretty ridiculous, I used to cringe at paying $50 for a Land Raider. Now I won't buy one without either a discount of some sort or by getting credit for winning a tournament etc. Regular troops and vehicle costs remain with in the bounds of what I have deemed personally acceptable but only for now, GW is quite close to pricing me out of the hobby. It isn't that I can't afford to continue but I am wholly unwilling to pay prices any higher than at the current level, eventually it will become a waste of money no matter how much I like the story line and background.

Therion wrote:I've sold all my armies...

Even those amazing Eldar you had commissioned?




Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh at this. GW fails at the Internet. Again.

I'm at their own damned website and I can't view the trailer. Way to not use the Internet again guys.

I think they may have pulled it because people were being nasty about it. They disabled the Youtube comments before making it private there. Poor GW :(

I think they made the video private because of the extreme amount of bad comments it was getting on youtube.

Hilarious!

Ninja'd by filbert!

Well played good sir... Well played...

Personally, I've been suprised that the fictional parents of Little Jimmy have been willing to open the vein and get him/her/it a box of space marines at current prices.

I think GW will see an even more drastic sales drop-off once the cost of a Tactical marine box edges over $40 (Probably in about 5 years or so, if their online price is anything to go by), and almost total lack of sales once the prices hit $5 for an individual model in a $50 box. My personal cutoff was ~$25-30, and as a result I haven't bought a box of GW models in over a decade.

Overall, it makes me sad. To further abuse the metaphor, not only do you see the older brother abusing his friends and being an ass, you also see him start to spend all his time drinking, and he ignores you and all your friends and family warning him about the probable results of his habit. I don't want GW to fail, but unless they drastically change, they will (not might, but will) collapse in the near future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sheesh, that trailer is terrible. (It wasn't private for me! )I'd understand making that when you're in the mid 90s and personal commercials are fancy, but zooming in and out on a low-resolution piece of box art will definately not wow our current generation. I wonder if they outsourced the production to their local junior high?....

I'll admit I'm something of a hater, but I try not to be baseless in my hatred Really, I want to like Games Workshop. I love their universes, their miniatures, and even their game systems, warts and all (all though 8th Fantasy is probably the worst GW game I've ever played, it's still (barely) acceptable). There are three main things that bother me:

1.)The secrecy
2.)The total lack of support for Specialist Games
3.)The price

If they changed even one of these for the better, I would probably return to the fold (preferably the prices). The embargo thing is pretty horrible, but it doesn't really affect me, though I feel for the Aussies and Kiwis.

Basically, I really want to like GW, but they make it hard for me.

For example, Dread Fleet looks really cool. I love it. I want it. But not enough to spend $115 on it.

They are already pushing 40 bucks.

Thats why people are using GW as the butt of bad jokes.

RatBot wrote: I'll admit I'm something of a hater, but I try not to be baseless in my hatred Really, I want to like Games Workshop.

Me too, but they dont help us to do it... And i tried...

Right now, i feel like a "spanked wife" everytime i buy something from them: my husband beat me every day, but i really like him, and keep my hope it will change one day. But right now, he is coming home more drunk, and hitting harder. Should I ask for the divorce?

The Dwarf Wolf wrote: everytime i buy something from them: my husband beat me every day, but i really like him, and keep my hope it will change one day. But right now, he is coming home more drunk, and hitting harder. Should I ask for the divorce?

The Dwarf Wolf: It's not your fault.

*hugs*

FWIW The trailer video is still working on BoW

Can someone fill me on on what the teaser trailer is? First I'm hearing about it was HBMC's comment showing it was pulled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m1t5hYvCLo&feature=player_embedded

That game looks pretty neat, actually. The voice over work was a bit rough but overall I think trailer was OK.

Skull imagery shown in video: 121 times
Video length: 614 seconds
Skulls per second: .20

filbert wrote:I think they may have pulled it because people were being nasty about it. They disabled the Youtube comments before making it private there. Poor GW :(

That is failing at Internet.

My company (Sony) operates various websites with forums and comment areas. We get plenty of flak. We take the rough with the smooth, because we invest the appropriate resources in managing the sites.

Any large company has to do the same if they want to use the internet effectively.

Ouze wrote:That game looks pretty neat, actually. The voice over work was a bit rough but overall I think trailer was OK.

This is what I thought as well. The pirate accent was kinda cheesey, but its not like the whole thing was done in it. I thought the guy explaining the game did a good job, and it does look kind of fun.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

RatBot wrote: I'll admit I'm something of a hater, but I try not to be baseless in my hatred Really, I want to like Games Workshop.

Me too, but they dont help us to do it... And i tried...

Right now, i feel like a "spanked wife" everytime i buy something from them: my husband beat me every day, but i really like him, and keep my hope it will change one day. But right now, he is coming home more drunk, and hitting harder. Should I ask for the divorce?

And others are the abusive spouse. Nothing is ever good enough. It's always pathetic yaddayaddayadda.

Vote with your feet one way or the other.

Go for a divorce DW
Have an affair with one of the many eligible bachelors out there. You are worth better than that brute.

There are safe houses in case he comes after you.
Be strong girlfriend, we can get through this together.

Mr Mystery wrote:And others are the abusive spouse. Nothing is ever good enough. It's always pathetic yaddayaddayadda.

Vote with your feet one way or the other.

You didn't really read the thread, did you?

No. Didn't think so.

I find if you siphon off some of your love to other systems (FoW and other historicals are my main hobby loves right now) GW becomes a lot more bearable as it becomes your dirty little mistress on the side, instead of your 'abusive husband' as some of you put it.

Las wrote:I find if you siphon off some of your love to other systems (FoW and other historicals are my main hobby loves right now) GW becomes a lot more bearable as it becomes your dirty little mistress on the side, instead of your 'abusive husband' as some of you put it.

I have done this from time to time with Warmachine, Video games, Fantasy Football, or RPGs. Coming back to 40k is always a good experience, although I never leave it for long.

H.B.M.C. wrote:To summarise the thread:

People who dislike GW, their policies and, in fact, anything they do can be instantly dismissed as a smaller fringe minority group whose opinions don't matter, whose grievances are invalid and who's criticisms lack merit. Back to the pile!!!



I've got a better strategy. It's called "credit where credit's due". People may want to dismiss me as a mindless hater who thinks everything GW does is an affront to human decency (that's crap, only most of what they do fits that bill ), but that's simply not true. I will always give credit where credit's due, and whenever GW makes something that is really cool or starts to do something new that could be considered quite revolutionary from a model design perspective, I will celebrate it.

But don't expect me to sit back and take all the endless bs (bad rules, price rises, mother-fething embargoes) in silence.

No. You get dismissed because you have a history of spouting hate, bile and vitriol at GW while continuing to hand them your wallet.

It's not the hate, it's the hypocrisy.

Worglock wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:To summarise the thread:

People who dislike GW, their policies and, in fact, anything they do can be instantly dismissed as a smaller fringe minority group whose opinions don't matter, whose grievances are invalid and who's criticisms lack merit. Back to the pile!!!



I've got a better strategy. It's called "credit where credit's due". People may want to dismiss me as a mindless hater who thinks everything GW does is an affront to human decency (that's crap, only most of what they do fits that bill ), but that's simply not true. I will always give credit where credit's due, and whenever GW makes something that is really cool or starts to do something new that could be considered quite revolutionary from a model design perspective, I will celebrate it.

But don't expect me to sit back and take all the endless bs (bad rules, price rises, mother-fething embargoes) in silence.

No. You get dismissed because you have a history of spouting hate, bile and vitriol at GW while continuing to hand them your wallet.

It's not the hate, it's the hypocrisy.

I thought this had died. Well it was fun while it lasted. I feel the downward spiral approaching...

Worglock wrote:No. You get dismissed because you have a history of spouting hate, bile and vitriol at GW while continuing to hand them your wallet.

It's not the hate, it's the hypocrisy.

While I'm not going to say I agree with everything he says, I've only ever seen him aim sling some gak at GW when it's absolutely deserved. Honestly, the only people dismissing HBMC are you and Mr Mystery.

Don’t feed the trolls. Don’t want to see another thread derailed.

Worglock wrote:No. You get dismissed because you have a history of spouting hate, bile and vitriol at GW while continuing to hand them your wallet.

It's not the hate, it's the hypocrisy.

You are a tremendous waste of banwidth, you know that? And, to make matters worse, unlike Mr_Mystery, you hold zero entertainment factor because every single post of yours is exactly. The. Same.

I have to point one thing out that is somewhat off topic... when trolls (im not refering to anyone in particular here) start a flame war and a thread gets shut down, maybe that is the trolls first wish. so by engaging in a flame war that causes a thread to be closed, you act as the trolls unwitting pawn. I have long suspected that one of the real regulars here on dakka does this to derail threads that he dosnt like.

back on topic. Gw sometimes gets things right. LOTR seemed to be one of their best products as far as balance, affordability and game play go. it just didnt really take off around here so i sold the game. shrugs.

<thread terminated; fatally OT>