Even if he is trapped physically to the Golden Throne of Earth, Emperor's mind is still working like 10.000 years ago.

And he regularly guide the people of the Imeprium, giving them instruction via Emperor's Tarot. Could it then be possible that he is aware the whole time what his Imperium has become? What happened to his loyal Primarchs after the Heresy? The Codex Astartes, The Goge regime, the Badab war, Krieg war, Black Crusades....? Does he know about all that?

I first assumed that in Goge Regime when his invasion fleet was hit with massive Warp storm that got it trapped, witch lead to the Astartes and Mechanicus attacking his palace. Then after mysterious meeting between him and Alicia Dominica ( really, she went for only few minutes and after that turned against her own Lord and execute him? That must have been some meeting ). And the fact that Sisters unique powers come from the Emperor himself ( Witchhunter codex ) means that he is willingly giving them portion of his power to yield?

I don't know about his intentions but someone here at Dakka presented an interesting theory ( I don't remember who but he will appear - I am sure of that ): Emperor had a plan B if case of failure of plan A. And that is to gather strength and face Chaos Gods in warp as one of them. So basically - he is allowing for people of the Imperium to worship him ( thus giving him strength and big presence in the Warp ) and the result will be certain of a whole new Chaos entity when he die one day. An entity that can rival Chaos Gods and maybe even kill them.
This is quite interesting theory, and it might be possible that the theory is correct. That would mean that he is aware at some point to overall situation. And that he knows about how far the Imperium has gone with his commands... but why then he is still allowing that instead of warning them via his Taroth?

What does Dakka thinks?

I don't think the emperor is aware of what's happening beyond the warp. If he was aware of anything it would be the fact he's drooling down his chest while they shove souls into the golden throne to feed him.

The emperor is dead. His body lives, yes, but he is dead. No psychic presence, nothing.
The psychic presence that humanity worships is actually Tzeentch, manipulating humanity to his own ends.

That's what I think, anyway.

Oh my god. The sisters do NOT get their power from the Emprah, not at all. None of it! Zero!

People seem to forget that in the 40k universe, believing in something deeply enough can change and affect anything.

The warp manifests itself in not just the forms of the chaos gods. It's a mirror realm, and it's power is drawn from emotion. If you feel and believe something so powerfully that it is your truth and reality, extraordinary things happen.

And NOT because the emperor shares his powers. He is dead. Anything left of him is just the Astronomicon, aka his psychic presence in the warp.

BronzeJon wrote:Oh my god. The sisters do NOT get their power from the Emprah, not at all. None of it! Zero!

People seem to forget that in the 40k universe, believing in something deeply enough can change and affect anything.

The warp manifests itself in not just the forms of the chaos gods. It's a mirror realm, and it's power is drawn from emotion. If you feel and believe something so powerfully that it is your truth and reality, extraordinary things happen.

And NOT because the emperor shares his powers. He is dead. Anything left of him is just the Astronomicon, aka his psychic presence in the warp.

And if people believe in the Emperor he gains power, enough, some may say, to affect things in the material realom... like the chaos gods do on a regular basis.
So yeah, not entirely a bad theory.
The Astronomicon isn't him, he has a hand in it but he isn't its entirety.

BronzeJon wrote:And NOT because the emperor shares his powers. He is dead. Anything left of him is just the Astronomicon, aka his psychic presence in the warp.

So a drooling braindead goon isn't to far then

GentlemanGuy wrote:So a drooling braindead goon isn't to far then

Yeah it is.


The actual state of the Emperor seems fairly debatable. He's said to have a few body cells left, maintained by the Golden Throne and tethering him to the Materium, and it's pretty explicitly stated that the Emperor retains consciousness and suffers in eternal agony to maintain vigil over humanity.

BronzeJon wrote:Oh my god. The sisters do NOT get their power from the Emprah, not at all. None of it! Zero!

People seem to forget that in the 40k universe, believing in something deeply enough can change and affect anything.

The warp manifests itself in not just the forms of the chaos gods. It's a mirror realm, and it's power is drawn from emotion. If you feel and believe something so powerfully that it is your truth and reality, extraordinary things happen.

And NOT because the emperor shares his powers. He is dead. Anything left of him is just the Astronomicon, aka his psychic presence in the warp.

Whilst I don't disagree with your logic, without a source to back it up, it's no more definitive than the opposite assumption - that the Emperor is indeed a 'god' and able to intervene to aid his followers just as the ruinous powers do.

BronzeJon wrote:Oh my god. The sisters do NOT get their power from the Emprah, not at all. None of it! Zero!

People seem to forget that in the 40k universe, believing in something deeply enough can change and affect anything.

The warp manifests itself in not just the forms of the chaos gods. It's a mirror realm, and it's power is drawn from emotion. If you feel and believe something so powerfully that it is your truth and reality, extraordinary things happen.

And NOT because the emperor shares his powers. He is dead. Anything left of him is just the Astronomicon, aka his psychic presence in the warp.

Actually, the description of the Powers of Faith in both the SOB Codex, the DH books and pretty much everywhere else their game effects are discussed state that they come from the divine power of the Emperor. Not in some in-universe, in-character comment, but in the omniscient, player-knowledge description that is used when discussing table-top rules, things that GMs need to know, and all that similar sort of deal.

Psienesis wrote:

BronzeJon wrote:Oh my god. The sisters do NOT get their power from the Emprah, not at all. None of it! Zero!

People seem to forget that in the 40k universe, believing in something deeply enough can change and affect anything.

The warp manifests itself in not just the forms of the chaos gods. It's a mirror realm, and it's power is drawn from emotion. If you feel and believe something so powerfully that it is your truth and reality, extraordinary things happen.

And NOT because the emperor shares his powers. He is dead. Anything left of him is just the Astronomicon, aka his psychic presence in the warp.

Actually, the description of the Powers of Faith in both the SOB Codex, the DH books and pretty much everywhere else their game effects are discussed state that they come from the divine power of the Emperor. Not in some in-universe, in-character comment, but in the omniscient, player-knowledge description that is used when discussing table-top rules, things that GMs need to know, and all that similar sort of deal.

Good. I thought the original suggestion sounded a bit too 'Mage the Ascension'.

The people of the Imperium worship a dried up, rotting, decaying corpse that they feed souls to. Doesn't that sound a little heretical to anyone else?

tilarium wrote:The people of the Imperium worship a dried up, rotting, decaying corpse that they feed souls to. Doesn't that sound a little heretical to anyone else?

Not really. The whole Religion of the Imperium is based upon that. They don't hide it, they yell it from the rooftops. Ok maybe not that extreme, but the fact that he is bound to the golden throne because after fighting (and killing) Horus, it was either die now or be bound to the throne and die eventually (That and Malador[or Whatever his name is. The guy originally bound to the Golden Throne] was about to die) isn't hidden from the public.

they just arent ready to let go of the emperor yet, and the illuminati are actually planning
to sacrifice the descendants of the Emperor so he will be reborn and lead another great crusade

My opinion on it is the Emperor's Warp presence is still there, but barely conscious as a single entity and is between the space of a human soul and a God. I doubt he perceives or registers specific events going on in the Imperium and acts on them. He's one with the Warp.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:The whole Religion of the Imperium is based upon that. They don't hide it, they yell it from the rooftops. Ok maybe not that extreme, but the fact that he is bound to the golden throne because after fighting (and killing) Horus, it was either die now or be bound to the throne and die eventually (That and Malador[or Whatever his name is. The guy originally bound to the Golden Throne] was about to die) isn't hidden from the public.

Quite right - it's a bit of a Jesus case here. THE EMPEROR SUFFERS FOR YOU so you better repay him. With tithes to the Church, obedience to your governor, and by joining the Imperial Guard.

The above also plays a heavy part in the religious view of the Adepta Sororitas, though I think there would be a number of circles within the Ecclesiarchy and many Death Cults that practice a similar kind of "flagellantism".

"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Hair-shirts! Naked vigils on cold stone floors! The scourge of prayer and endless mortifications of the flesh! Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?"
- unknown Canoness in 3E 40k rulebook short story

Beastmaster wrote:they just arent ready to let go of the emperor yet

Oh yeah, there was an interesting bit about preventing the Emperor from rising anew in the introduction of GW's Inquisitor RPG. Basically, the powers-that-be prefer him to remain a figurehead whilst hiding the possibility of a rebirth from the populace. Grimdark ...

The Emperor is most certaintly aware of what is happening. He does interact with his subjects, albiet in a slightly distanced fashion.

The Emperor's Tarot and Living Saints are just a few of the ways in which he interacts.

He will also gain information from the ripples in the Warp.



His empire may not be what he intended, but he doubtless sees how it only survives with him as its god. If he ever is cured he will likely remain as a god, denying it would only rip humanity apart again.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

tilarium wrote:The people of the Imperium worship a dried up, rotting, decaying corpse that they feed souls to. Doesn't that sound a little heretical to anyone else?

Not really. The whole Religion of the Imperium is based upon that. They don't hide it, they yell it from the rooftops. Ok maybe not that extreme, but the fact that he is bound to the golden throne because after fighting (and killing) Horus, it was either die now or be bound to the throne and die eventually (That and Malador[or Whatever his name is. The guy originally bound to the Golden Throne] was about to die) isn't hidden from the public.

In the Inquisitor game, there was a bit of fluff where the High Lords were given the option of resurrecting him, but decided not to. (Two of them did anyway, and had the other two assassinated).

From what I have read I think the Emperor knows what's going on to an extent. However bear in mind that the Emperor purposefully cam into existence when a bunch of powerful shamans willfully died at the same time so that they could return as the Ultimate being. Therefore if the Emperor were to die what would stop him from returning?

The flip side of this? Apparently warp travel would be almost impossible without the Emperor being on the Golden Throne. I don't think the Imperium would survive without Warp travel.

It potentially could, just in a far smaller version, with local governing bodies (probably voicing themselves through Space Marines) being more important. They managed Warp travel while the Emperor was still up and about anyway.

Wasn't there also warp travel before the Emperor had even revealed himself? Anyway, it seems more likely to me that the Emperor is aware of the overall state of the Imperium, but not individual events (like the siege of Vraks).

Well before the Emperor there was no Eye of Terror, so the Warp jumps have been somewhat easier then in the 41'st millennium ( damn you Eldar and your fetish games ). I only don't knwo how they navigated in the age of the Great Crusade, since there was nos Astronomicon even then.

He is, to a certain extent. His personality is fragmented, parts of it seem to work at odds with other parts, and overall he has too many tasks to occupy him to really care about the hellish conditions of most planets under the Imperium's yoke. He never was that compassionate a guy in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:Well before the Emperor there was no Eye of Terror, so the Warp jumps have been somewhat easier then in the 41'st millennium ( damn you Eldar and your fetish games ). I only don't knwo how they navigated in the age of the Great Crusade, since there was nos Astronomicon even then.

If it wasn't for the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh, humanity could have never begun the Great Crusade, since that event blew apart the crazy warp storms accumulated during the Age of Strife. The lack of an Astronomicon would have complicated things for the navigators of the Crusades, so no clue on that one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Oh yeah, there was an interesting bit about preventing the Emperor from rising anew in the introduction of GW's Inquisitor RPG. Basically, the powers-that-be prefer him to remain a figurehead whilst hiding the possibility of a rebirth from the populace. Grimdark ...

Well, the rationale behind that is that some may not accept his rebirth, which would prompt a civil war, and perhaps more importantly, they have no idea how sane he is after being stuck in a port-a-potty for 10,000 years.

The Emperor is not dead. If he would be, then terra would be in an constant assault of demonic forces and humanity would have been wiped out long ago. Hes body maybe dead, but his spirit still lingers on, waiting on becoming an great warp entity, so that he could gather up whole humanity and lead them to an grand crusade, in which every trait of chaos is wiped out. The emperor doesnt know about the current happenings, only sensing warp entities and keeping them away from terra, using his great mind. (now isnt this a little confusing from a guy who worships khorne? well i only side chaos in WHFB ) Courage and honour!

How does the Emperor plan on wiping out Chaos when his own armies are feeding it? As long as sentient life exists, so will the Chaos gods.

Durza wrote:How does the Emperor plan on wiping out Chaos when his own armies are feeding it? As long as sentient life exists, so will the Chaos gods.

He doesn't want to wipe out chaos, he knows he cant, if we go by fluff the emperor is a very VERY wise person he knows he cant beat chaos, he wanted to prepare the human race for ascension into psykerhood but that plan went down the drain when his son got constipated.

The way I see it is that the emperor is feeding on the souls so that when his body goes BAMF he has enough souls and power too rival the chaos gods in the warp - at the moment he is neither dead nor alive somewhere in between preparing for the next phase and he lets the church know he exist (even though he hated the concept of religion) that way when he goes BAMF he can interact with the faithful (saints, priests etc) and show his public he is still here.

the emperor is wise - love the emperor and he will love you back.

Surely instead of saying 'I'm off to be a god'-BAMF, he should be saying 'Better find someone else to sit on that real quickly'-BAMF

yevix wrote:
He doesn't want to wipe out chaos, he knows he cant, if we go by fluff the emperor is a very VERY wise person he knows he cant beat chaos,

He might know that now, but his plan was indisputably to wipe out all the chaos gods. That's what the motivated the entire Imperial Truth during the Crusade. He thought that by cutting off all worship and knowledge of chaos, he could kill it. Considering Chaos orchestrated the Heresy to stop this, it must have had at least some chance of success.

Yes

I am sure I remember reading that the emperor was saddened how the only way to save the empire after the heresy was to abandon the imperial truth and become a god for humanity.

I think his plan was not so much to destroy the chaos gods, but to make them less powerful. If the imperial truth were properly spread, and the imperium became the utopia he had envisioned, the negative emotions that feed the negative aspects of the chaos gods would diminish and their more positive sides would become more prevalent.

However, as it stands now, all he can do is protect the imperium from the raw stuff of chaos and hope for the best.

In the Inquisitor trilogy of books he is shown as alaive and aware of things, through many fragmented parts of his conciousness. Think the BL has put them back into print, but they were originally RT era stuff.

So basically he's in a coma?

My own personal opinion considering what I've read of the fluff garnered over the years.

The Emperor is dead in the form he was once known to the material universe.

The Emperor was never a 'single' consciousness according to much fluff in the first place (the multitude of 'visions' and facets people saw while trying to discern an image while he was alive). His power after being intered on the throne became dispersed among its many components in the warp and elsewhere. His powers are greatly diminished due to this dispersal, but great enough to affect the material universe in small ways.

The components of his consciousness may be gathered together once more in a single vessel according to fluff, but how this will take place remains to be seen... if at all.

I'm pretty sure that the reason for everyone seeing a different face was him using his powers to make himself appear perfect to those who saw him.

Durza wrote:I'm pretty sure that the reason for everyone seeing a different face was him using his powers to make himself appear perfect to those who saw him.

I think there is more to it than that.

In addition to what I mentioned in my previous post certain fluff indicates he is, in fact, born of the self-sacrifice of a multitude of ancient Terran 'Shaman' to create a being to defend mankind from chaos. Those facets may be those souls carried in a single vessel.

His appearance doesn't seem to stay fixed which would allow him to appear perfect to an observer, instead it seems to shift. But, perhaps this is how Marines see him only and the average citizen sees that facet or 'soul' if you will which corresponds to their vision of what the Emperor is or at least should be in accordance with their expectations.

I thought the Shamans had been retconned away?

Not at all,

Nothing has been written on this subject since the dark ages of 40k(1980 )

They should probably address that. And give a closer estimate to the ages of the Chaos gods than 8000BC-1400AD

Chaos can't have an exact age. They may have been formed by mortal actions around 8000-1400BC, but they formed in the Warp. Outside of time and space, so they could have effects "before" they came into existance.

I still don't see how the Emperor could be older than Khorne.

Durza wrote:I still don't see how the Emperor could be older than Khorne.

That is not the worst part, Emperor is not older but Khorne became sentient somewhere in year 2500.

How? Humans didn't invent war.

Well, think of it like this. The chaos gods power waxes and wanes depending on whatever is going on at the time. Also under them is minor powers (or used to be). So for example before the EoT swallowed the Eldar home worlds Slaanesh was a small player, probably just started as a malevolant little daemon when someone thought up S&M. As worlds took over Slaanesh gained in power and therefore standing and sentience. Slaanesh started having hopes and plans, influencing the eldar to continue their pratices until full sentience was reached and beyond.
So Khorne was around as aggression was, but didn't achieve sentience until there was enough of it to fuel the gathering emotions in the warp that formed him.

Omegus wrote:Well, the rationale behind that is that some may not accept his rebirth, which would prompt a civil war, and perhaps more importantly, they have no idea how sane he is after being stuck in a port-a-potty for 10,000 years.

That passage is actually right after he is interred into the Golden Throne. Not in the 'current' time. Just a minor but important correction.

Durza wrote:How? Humans didn't invent war.

No they didn't it is just a coincidence that he came to be at that time. Remember all the other Gods, besides Slaanesh had extremely slow births

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:I still don't see how the Emperor could be older than Khorne.

That is not the worst part, Emperor is not older but Khorne became sentient somewhere in year 2500.

Well the warp first started becoming violent during the war between the necrons and the old ones. Before then the warp was calm. It seemed like only after the birth of the Eldar did the warp start having waves. One could say that the chaos gods in essence came about then.

However, the necrons almost killed off all life. Which would include the eldar and orks. This would reduce the number of living things that would have an influence on the warp in the universe greatly. With Eldar being such slow to populate species it would take centuries before their psychic imprint became of any concern. Similarly while the Orks would become quite populous quite quickly, their influence on the warp is 'unique'.

As such, I can believe that the chaos gods only really started gaining sentience and power when humans started becoming more populous.

Khorne has been in existence since the start of time and has also never existed, since their is no time or date in the warp the Chaos Gods can exist and not exist at any time. If the Gods of Chaos where to be measured on a galactic timeline then Khorne would have been the first of the four meaning the Emperor could not nearly be as old as him.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:I still don't see how the Emperor could be older than Khorne.

That is not the worst part, Emperor is not older but Khorne became sentient somewhere in year 2500.

Well the warp first started becoming violent during the war between the necrons and the old ones. Before then the warp was calm. It seemed like only after the birth of the Eldar did the warp start having waves. One could say that the chaos gods in essence came about then.

However, the necrons almost killed off all life. Which would include the eldar and orks. This would reduce the number of living things that would have an influence on the warp in the universe greatly. With Eldar being such slow to populate species it would take centuries before their psychic imprint became of any concern. Similarly while the Orks would become quite populous quite quickly, their influence on the warp is 'unique'.

As such, I can believe that the chaos gods only really started gaining sentience and power when humans started becoming more populous.

The Eldar and Orks weren't alone before humans come along. Look at the Cabal. There were at least eight species in it.

Mark my words, the emperor lives in the warp, and matt ward knows it. Brace yourself for the new codex: Chaos angels, the emperors eternal servants.

Chaos angels?

blood reaper wrote:Khorne has been in existence since the start of time and has also never existed, since their is no time or date in the warp the Chaos Gods can exist and not exist at any time. If the Gods of Chaos where to be measured on a galactic timeline then Khorne would have been the first of the four meaning the Emperor could not nearly be as old as him.

You are completely and absolutely wrong.

Omegus wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Khorne has been in existence since the start of time and has also never existed, since their is no time or date in the warp the Chaos Gods can exist and not exist at any time. If the Gods of Chaos where to be measured on a galactic timeline then Khorne would have been the first of the four meaning the Emperor could not nearly be as old as him.

You are completely and absolutely wrong.

Explain, please.

The Warp does generally follow time, it just has portions that flow backwards for a while. This means that the time of the Chaos gods' births can be measured, and there was a time when they didn't exist. According to the given timeline, Khorne is at best the same age as the Emperor.

Yes, he is.

He supports the theocracy to an extent, through his blessings of Imperial Saints and Living Saints, as well as towards his blessings of Sisters of Battle.

There are other races that pre-date Humanity, but they are small in population. There's a reason they were never armies in 40k.

Humanity was the first intelligent, and psychically active species to become prevalent in the galaxy since the Necron war.

DarknessEternal wrote:Humanity was the first intelligent, and psychically active species to become prevalent in the galaxy since the Necron war.

Source?

Regardless, Orks predate humans and VASTLY ounumber humanity.

Orks were active during the Necron war.

And the source is all of 40k's background material. Where were the other species of vast empires humanity encountered in their galactic expansion? There weren't any. Just orks and eldar, and eldar weren't all that vast.

DarknessEternal wrote:Where were the other species of vast empires humanity encountered in their galactic expansion? There weren't any.

There's no evidence of this. The information about humanity from when we left Earth to the time of the Great Crusade is too vague. In fact, from what I recall, humans in that era DID trade with xenos of various types.

Furthermore, you're moving the goalposts, as that's not what you initially claimed anyway. You merely said "prevalent", not "vast empires".

Melissia wrote:
Regardless, Orks predate humans and VASTLY ounumber humanity.

But orks already have their own gods in the warp. Orkish emotions feed Gork and Mork, not Khorne and Tzeentch...

Still, the fluff is rather vague on this. If xenos were irrelevant to the Chaos Gods they'd ignore them, and it's pretty clear that they don't.

It depends on the race. For example, Tau have such bland emotions and weak souls (no, not Blank souls, stop saying that Tau fanboys) that they're just unattractive-- nevermind that they're a young race. Orks are protected from Chaos by their very nature. Eldar DO suffer the predations of Chaos, and must spend every waking moment escaping or otherwise circumventing it. Tyranids don't get corrupted as long as they're connected to the hive mind.

But other minor races are more effected. The Hrud, for example, are deeply entwined with the Warp, and possibly one or more Chaos Gods.

Melissia wrote:
Furthermore, you're moving the goalposts, as that's not what you initially claimed anyway. You merely said "prevalent", not "vast empires".

No other known species that was both intelligent and psychically active were http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prevalent until the rise of Humanity.

It's stated numerous times that the previous dominant species was the Eldar. And their history never mentions any one in between their time and humanity's time.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's stated numerous times that the previous dominant species was the Eldar. And their history never mentions any one in between their time and humanity's time.

Just like the predominant political power in the world right now is generally perceived to be the US... it doesn't mean that there were no other powers. Just that the Eldar were the biggest.

So is your contention that in between the time the Eldar took over the galaxy 65 million years ago, and the time when humanity took it over ~20 thousand years ago from the Eldar, there were other species that were dominant despite the Eldar bookending that timeline?

No, the point is that just as Russia have nukes, there were other powerful species besides Eldar, but the Eldar were most powerful.

The Inquisition War has the best explanation of how The Emperor's mind works/doesn't work post-heresy. So to answer the original question: sortof.

Melissia wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Where were the other species of vast empires humanity encountered in their galactic expansion? There weren't any.

There's no evidence of this. The information about humanity from when we left Earth to the time of the Great Crusade is too vague. In fact, from what I recall, humans in that era DID trade with xenos of various types.

Furthermore, you're moving the goalposts, as that's not what you initially claimed anyway. You merely said "prevalent", not "vast empires".

Fulgrim talks about a species that they fought against while travelling with the Emperor in 'Fulgrim'. They were technologically advanced enough that their planets were charred wrecks by the time the Imperium had won.

Melissia wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Where were the other species of vast empires humanity encountered in their galactic expansion? There weren't any.

There's no evidence of this. The information about humanity from when we left Earth to the time of the Great Crusade is too vague. In fact, from what I recall, humans in that era DID trade with xenos of various types.

Furthermore, you're moving the goalposts, as that's not what you initially claimed anyway. You merely said "prevalent", not "vast empires".

I think pre-Fall Eldar easily qualify as a "vast Empire".

Omegus wrote:
I think pre-Fall Eldar easily qualify as a "vast Empire".

Which is the one, and only one, I stated, because it's the only one that shows up in the actual background.

That doesn't change the fact that there are still numerous smaller empires of species in the setting, that all easily dwarf humanity having one dinky little planet when all the Chaos Gods sans Slaanesh being born.

Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

However, the species created by The Old Ones have a uniquely potent effect on the imaterium because they were designed to.
That being said the Orks have their own gods, gork and mork, and humans have had many too. The big four ruinous powers were probably all mostly created by the highly psychic Eldar.
Eldar: they just ruin everything.

The gods always existed they were given sentience by the psychic wars the Old Ones had with the Necrontyr. So it is the fault of both the Old Ones and Eldar.

Then they just took their time making Slaanesh.

All species probably contributed to the formation of the eddies that later on became the Ruinous Powers, it's just humanity was the one to give them sentience/personality since we're so good at all that bad stuff and we breed so fast.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

That and humanity didn't exist when they took form but after they did...

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

According to the fluff, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were born at least six hundred years ago. How many planets do we currently own?

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

According to the fluff, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were born at least six hundred years ago. How many planets do we currently own?

He meant now? Just Terra. And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.
And my personal thought is that Eldar also created those two, because they started around that time to "experiment" with their emotions. We were also violent and such, but Eldar contributed to them the most since 1 Eldar emotion is 10x the same Human one.

Before the fall of the Eldar, they were probably the most populous race in the universe (not counting the orks) It is also quite evident that the eldar have a very strong psychic connection to the immaterium. (the fact that they are all psychers and created a chaos god by themselves being a good indication)

I am disinclined to say they created the others though. My reasoning for this is that the Eldar are all linked to Slannesh, who constantly feeds on their souls. If they created the others, those gods would also be linked to them.

I would like to point out though that humans creating them is just plain ridiculous. One planet of a couple of billion people could no possible rival the intergalactic slaughter that took place between the Old ones and the Necrons. Now the Necron Codex states that the warp was calm before the creation of the Eldar to fight the Necrons. After which the turbulence in the warp led to an opportunity for the slavers to kill off the Old ones. However, the necron codex also states that after this the necrons basically went on a full scale galaxy wide genocidal campaign. They only stopped killing everything when they realized that purging the universe of life now will prevent them from having another feast later so they went into hibernation while waiting for the universe to repopulate itself. We know that the Eldar and Orks survived this genocide, but the very acts of all that violence and death from all the living things at the time would be more than enough to start cultivating the chaos gods (Khorne and Nurgle at least).

(One train of thought, perhaps the maelstorm is the birthplace of one of them.)

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

According to the fluff, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were born at least six hundred years ago. How many planets do we currently own?

He meant now? Just Terra. And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.
And my personal thought is that Eldar also created those two, because they started around that time to "experiment" with their emotions. We were also violent and such, but Eldar contributed to them the most since 1 Eldar emotion is 10x the same Human one.

They were born between 8000 BC and 1400AD, and became sentient in M2. M2 is the 1000s. That's why 40k is in the 41st millennium.

Durza wrote:
They were born between 8000 BC and 1400AD, and became sentient in M2. M2 is the 1000s. That's why 40k is in the 41st millennium.

Still, the Emperor is older

Yeah...

Brother Coa wrote:He meant now? Just Terra. And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.

Out of curiosity, where does that date come from? Since Doombreed is often thought to be Genghis Khan (or is that Doomrider? Doom-something), and is one of Khorne's first servants, that would make for a contradiction (not surprisingly, given how haphazard 40k fluff gets).

See thread "beings that match the Emperor"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ancient_history

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
I would like to point out though that humans creating them is just plain ridiculous. One planet of a couple of billion people could no possible rival

Humans are special.

Brother Coa wrote:Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

Considering Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were born according to the 40k timeline before humanity even figured out how to put a man on the moon... Yeah.

Though the Emperor is indeed older.

Brother Coa wrote:See thread "beings that match the Emperor"

Durza wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ancient_history

There is a citation for the Emperor's birth at 8000BC, but no reference for the Chaos Gods' timeline of 8000BC-1400AD, and no mention at all of them "being born" in the year 2500AD. And if you go to the source, the only date mentioned is the 8000BC one, with the Powers fully becoming self-aware by the Middle Ages. That's why using wikis and similar as your only sources is foolish. Lexicanum in particular is notorious for mistakes/creative edits. This is also what makes it so frustrating to debate fluff with some folks on this board. Remembering reading something somewhere, and then using Lexicanum (personally, I prefer 40k wiki, since it tends to be more up to date and better about providing page numbers) to track down where is fine, but when you get into an argument with someone who is using Lexicanum as his one and only reference, it's like beating your head against a particularly stupid wall.

Omegus wrote: and no mention at all of them "being born" in the year 2500AD. And if you go to the source, the only date mentioned is the 8000BC one, with the Powers fully becoming self-aware by the Middle Ages.

See M2

See that number not appearing at all in the cited document.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M2

Again, I just explained to you why using Lexicanum as your sole source makes you look like a fool. They cite Lost and the Damned, but that date never ever appears in the actual book. EVER. At all. Not even a tiny little bit.

Lexicanum frequently has incorrect or out-right made-up information. Unless you have the source material, your citation is meaningless.

Then you read the book again, to you then everybody is fools because everybody is using Lexicanum.
And you can just say " this is not valid because its on Lexicaum " if goes against your personal believes.

It's not valid because IT'S MADE UP! "Personal beliefs"? You are ridiculous.

Omegus wrote:It's not valid because IT'S MADE UP!

Prove me that that's made up.

See attached file. See your face. See your face getting owned by attached file.

There are no timeline charts in that book, and there are no mentions of any dates except the Emperor's birth in Anatolia 8000BC.

Yes. He also gives support to his Imperium through miracles and etc.


Lost and the Damned is pretty old lore. Do you have anything more recent, or is this still staying in the nebulous "we're not sure if this is canon anymore" area?

Old lore still beats completely random number made up by wiki contributors.

Omegus wrote:Old lore still beats completely random number made up by wiki contributors.

True, but not by much. Things get retconned all the time.

Well, according to multiple quotes from various figureheads and authors at GW and BL (Lynata I believe has assembled them into a thread on this forum), all 40K fluff is fluid and nothing is ever truly retconned, since authors are pretty free to interpret the material as they wish.

In this case, we have no other source from either GW or BL that gives a timeline for the awakening of the Chaos Gods. The most recent document published in the subject, the Liber Chaotica (2005), has a description of Khorne's birth as a period of madness, and mentions kings and princes, swords and horsemen, also hinting at a medieval setting. Although when we consider that document is meant for Warhammer Fantasy, it's probably less relevant to the topic at hand than Lost and the Damned.

"Not by much" indeed. And I'm surprised to see such a blase attitude about retcons coming from someone who rages daily about the demotion of the Ordos Major. Hey, the Sororitas are actually an entire army of well-trained dominatrix prostitutes that secretly worship Slaanesh. Sure, I just made that up and am contradicted by written material, but hey, things get retconned all the time.

Omegus wrote:(Lynata I believe has assembled them into a thread on this forum)

Knowing Lynata's convoluted and off-putting definition of canon, let's not rely too much on her statements

Omegus wrote:all 40K fluff is fluid and nothing is ever truly retconned, since authors are pretty free to interpret the material as they wish.

Which also applies to its readers, pretty much.

Omegus wrote:"Not by much" indeed. And I'm surprised to see such a blase attitude about retcons coming from someone who rages daily about the demotion of the Ordos Major.

Who's that?

Melissia wrote:

Omegus wrote:(Lynata I believe has assembled them into a thread on this forum)

Knowing Lynata's convoluted and off-putting definition of canon, let's not rely too much on her statements

While I don't agree with her (Lynata is a she?) stance on canon, the quotes in that thread come directly from the GW/BL folks.

Omegus wrote:all 40K fluff is fluid and nothing is ever truly retconned, since authors are pretty free to interpret the material as they wish.

Which also applies to its readers, pretty much.

But again, cherry-picking and interpreting from the written material is very different from spouting a complete fabrication as an unassailable fact.

Omegus wrote:"Not by much" indeed. And I'm surprised to see such a blase attitude about retcons coming from someone who rages daily about the demotion of the Ordos Major.

Who's that?

Omegus wrote:While I don't agree with her (Lynata is a she?) stance on canon, the quotes in that thread come directly from the GW/BL folks.

As far as I can tell. I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Omegus wrote:But again, cherry-picking and interpreting from the written material is very different from spouting a complete fabrication as an unassailable fact.

Yeah, I don't think Lexicanum is a good source for debates either. It's better to look at the sources it cites instead.

Omegus wrote:I seem to remember a not so recent thread where you were all and over the fact that the number of major orders have been reduced by more recent fluff. I don't recall the exact details.

They weren't reduced. I was commenting on the fact that the rulebook had a typographical error in it where it said there were only three major orders instead of six. The new WD book says six as well, so it obviously wasn't retconned-- rather, it was simply evidence that Matt Ward wasn't paying attention.

Omegus wrote:See attached file. See your face. See your face getting owned by attached file.

There are no timeline charts in that book, and there are no mentions of any dates except the Emperor's birth in Anatolia 8000BC.

you just proven my point right. It said "by the end of Middle ages all three became fully consciouness". And the middle ages end in 1500. Adn that is 500.M2.
Thank you for proving my post

Brother Coa wrote: And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.

Thank you for apparently not knowing what you yourself write.

I mistaken 2'nd millennium for year 2000, silly me
But I was right all along nevertheless.

Even if we dismiss the 2500 as a typo that meant 1500, you're still wrong, since you said they became fully sentient on/after that date (you contradicted yourself within the same sentence, well done, you really don't know what the hell you're writing).

And if we want to be really pedantic, the Middle Ages didn't end in the year 1500.

Omegus wrote:Even if we dismiss the 2500 as a typo that meant 1500, you're still wrong, since you said they became fully sentient on/after that date (you contradicted yourself within the same sentence, well done, you really don't know what the hell you're writing). The text you provide say that they became fully sentiend by the end of middle ages, there is no way that they can became fully later - because it's not end but that's already new age. You to seems to not know what you are telling.

And if we want to be really pedantic, the Middle Ages didn't end in the year 1500.

Well you can chose:

Guthenberg's invention of press - 1450.
Fall of Constantinople - 1453.
Discovery of America - 1492.

Every historian take one of those 3 as the end of middle ages ( and I didn't imagine this, this is waht I actually learn in school on History class ).
Still, 1500 is 1500.

Let's keep our disagreements a bit more polite and friendly, shall we? We're all here to enjoy discussing our hobby.

Stay friendly, folks. -Mannahnin

Please remember that the purpose of the forum is to have fun discusing our hobby. If you're not having fun, and you're geting annoyed and/or feel the desire to insult another person, or sarcastically question their comprehension of English, you should probably take a break, or have a cold beer, or otherwise relax and get some perspective and bear in mind that the point is relaxation and fun.

You know Mannahnin, you should make a special rule or new forum place for people asking claims, proofs, sources etc...

The issue to do with things like the Laxanicum and any Wiki is that unless a specific source is cited, there's nothing to say it isnt just pulled out of someones ass.

Ovion wrote:The issue to do with things like the Laxanicum and any Wiki is that unless a specific source is cited, there's nothing to say it isnt just pulled out of someones ass.

And even if a source is cited, most wiki editors work with paraphrasing instead of direct quotes to bring information from different sources into line - which may create a warped image depending on how the individual user editing the article has interpreted the available info. You'd be surprised how often it pays off actually checking a source mentioned in an article.
That, and then there's the question of canonicity, i.e. the right of a freelancing author working under license to simply rewrite background established by the studio. As far as I know, Lexicanum treats anything ever published anywhere as canon, which introduces a whole lot of contradictions that then invite speculation and, again, interpretation, which then gets picked up as fact by other readers.

So basically Lexicanum is like GW?

Melissia wrote:So basically Lexicanum is like GW?

This post is so fun of win

Melissia wrote:So basically Lexicanum is like GW?

Yep